395: The Sand Bucket Challenge


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Real AFM, this is Connected, episode 395.

00:00:12   Today's episode is brought to you by Trade, Indeed, and Hover.

00:00:16   My name is Myke Hurley, and I am alive, and I am joined by Federico Vittucci. Hi Federico.

00:00:21   Hello. Hello, Myke. How are you?

00:00:23   I feel terrible.

00:00:24   Well, you are alive.

00:00:27   I don't.

00:00:28   So that's good.

00:00:29   I have tested negative consistently for COVID. I have many COVID symptoms. I don't know what to tell anyone, you know what I mean?

00:00:35   Maybe you just don't have it, you know, maybe you just have a cold or something and it's just...

00:00:39   I think I just have the regular coronavirus, not the COVID-19 coronavirus, you know?

00:00:43   Is that a thing? Well, I guess that's a thing.

00:00:46   COVID-19 is a coronavirus.

00:00:48   So maybe you have another coronavirus.

00:00:51   I think like cold and flu is the coronaviruses.

00:00:53   Hmm, really? Okay.

00:00:55   I think so.

00:00:56   Well, at the very least, that's not preventing you from being here, so that's technically a good thing.

00:01:01   But I'm sorry you still feel...

00:01:02   Well, we'll see how I get by the end of the episode, because one of my biggest issues right now

00:01:08   is I generally keep losing focus, so...

00:01:12   Looking at our topic list today, I'm intrigued to see how that's going to go for me, you know?

00:01:17   Okay. It's also my pleasure to introduce Steven Hackett. Hello, Steven.

00:01:22   Hello, Federico. Hello, Myke.

00:01:24   Hi.

00:01:26   I don't have any COVID symptoms. So I think I'm good. I think I'm in the clear.

00:01:30   Good for you?

00:01:31   I don't think I've had it.

00:01:33   I mean maybe I had it and didn't know it. I think that's true for a lot of people, but...

00:01:37   Like you had no symptoms at all?

00:01:39   Maybe I'll escape.

00:01:40   Coronaviruses are a group of related RNA viruses. That's the beginning of the...

00:01:47   Oh, common cold. The common cold is one. So we've all had coronavirus, just not COVID-19 maybe.

00:01:54   Yeah, not the flashy one.

00:01:56   Severe acute respiratory syndrome,

00:01:59   Middle East respiratory syndrome,

00:02:01   coronavirus disease 2019,

00:02:04   and then there's another one,

00:02:06   which has not really got a fun name.

00:02:08   Let's do some follow-up.

00:02:11   Federico, have you gotten your Apple Watch repaired yet?

00:02:14   Not repaired, but we received this tip by a listener of the show, Myke.

00:02:22   Myke suggested toggling the optimized battery charging setting in the Battery Health section of the Apple Watch inside settings.

00:02:33   Myke mentioned, you could see if it solves your charging issues, the watchOS 8.5 update could have lost your routine.

00:02:45   Now, the Optimized Battery Charging is the setting that, to reduce battery aging, basically

00:02:52   the Apple Watch and the iPhone has the same option.

00:02:54   It learns from your daily charging routine, and basically it waits to finish charging

00:03:00   your device past the 80% threshold until you need to use it.

00:03:06   I forgot about this thing, about this option that it existed.

00:03:10   I found that it was enabled on my watch.

00:03:14   I'm pretty sure I keep it disabled on my iPhone because I'm really...

00:03:17   I don't trust Apple with any of these intelligent things.

00:03:21   And also, I always sell my iPhones on the next year

00:03:25   when the battery is still at like 90%, 92%, 93%

00:03:29   and most buyers are okay with that.

00:03:33   So I disabled the toggle. I disabled the option.

00:03:36   Just because I also like to be fully in control of how a thing charges.

00:03:40   Like, when I put it on the charger, I want it to be fully charged when I pick it up.

00:03:43   And what I can tell you is that I just tested this today.

00:03:48   I had my phone at 50% at 4pm.

00:03:51   I just checked.

00:03:53   It is now three hours later and it's at 100%.

00:03:57   So maybe the issues have been fixed and maybe I just needed to, you know, turn it off and on again or something.

00:04:05   I don't know.

00:04:05   But I mean, it used to be that it would do 50% in like 10 hours, maybe even 12.

00:04:12   And it started in three.

00:04:14   So I think I'm OK now.

00:04:18   So strange.

00:04:19   That is-- I mean, I get the thinking behind the feature,

00:04:24   especially after Apple went through your battery

00:04:28   degrade so we cut down your performance thing a few years ago.

00:04:32   But I, like you, have it off.

00:04:35   It was on my watch, I've turned it off now,

00:04:38   but I have it off of my phone.

00:04:40   And really just, I wanna know like,

00:04:42   if I put my phone down, it's charging, right?

00:04:45   And I don't know, I don't wanna be caught out

00:04:48   where like I need it at some point.

00:04:50   And I'm like, oh, waiting for it to figure out

00:04:53   what's gonna happen with the charging cycle that it's on.

00:04:56   So I have it flipped off as well.

00:04:58   - Yeah, yeah.

00:05:00   And I don't know why, but these settings,

00:05:02   I think they re-enable themselves,

00:05:05   even though they're not supposed to,

00:05:06   because I'm sure I had it disabled on my phone.

00:05:10   I checked again, and it was enabled once more.

00:05:12   So it must be one of those things

00:05:14   that Apple quietly re-enables behind the scenes for you,

00:05:16   because they really think it's what's best for you,

00:05:19   but I don't want what's best for me.

00:05:20   I want what I decide.

00:05:22   So like you just said,

00:05:25   I wanna make sure that if I need my phone at 100%,

00:05:29   that it's not making a decision for me

00:05:30   based on my routine also,

00:05:32   because I don't really have a routine.

00:05:33   I'm all over the place these days.

00:05:35   Yeah, I disabled it again.

00:05:36   And yes, Kate from Discord is asking,

00:05:39   "Are you on the beta?"

00:05:40   Yes, I'm on the beta, not on the watch though.

00:05:42   I'm on the beta on the iPhone.

00:05:44   Watch is on the stable release.

00:05:46   Yeah, I don't ever watch OS betas.

00:05:49   That just seems like a world of hurt.

00:05:51   I'd rather avoid.

00:05:52   We spoke last time about trade-in programs

00:05:58   and how Apple's isn't always the best option in town.

00:06:02   Myke, I think we got some feedback about storage sizes

00:06:05   and how that factors in.

00:06:06   - Yeah, I had a few people contact me and tell me,

00:06:09   'cause I was saying that like comparing Apple's trade

00:06:12   in prices with third party trading companies

00:06:15   and how a third party trading company,

00:06:19   the maximum that would pay would be X, but Apple would be Y.

00:06:22   And one of the things I was referencing

00:06:24   is that third party trading companies,

00:06:26   they pay more depending on the value of the phone.

00:06:29   So if you have like a Pro Max with the highest storage tier,

00:06:33   you get more money than if it was a lower storage tier.

00:06:36   And many people wrote in to tell me,

00:06:37   but Apple doesn't account for storage tiers.

00:06:40   To which I say, I don't care, they should.

00:06:43   Like I don't, if Apple will charge more for a thing

00:06:46   and will also, I'm sure they charge more

00:06:50   when they do put them on the refurb store too,

00:06:52   which some of the devices that come into them,

00:06:54   they either recycle them or refurbish them.

00:06:57   Like, you know, they choose not to do that.

00:07:00   I think actually it stacks more against me

00:07:03   saying how bad a deal Apple's recycling trade in,

00:07:07   like whatever you call it, program is,

00:07:10   in that they just give you the price

00:07:12   as if you had the lowest storage tier.

00:07:14   Because that is a weird thing to me of saying like,

00:07:16   ah, Apple, so how much value is there

00:07:20   in the highest storage tier then?

00:07:22   Like if you don't deem worth buying it back from me at that price,

00:07:25   why do I have to pay that price in the first place, you know?

00:07:29   Because there's quite a premium as you start going up in the storage tiers.

00:07:32   So yeah, sure, it is a thing, right?

00:07:34   Apple will always only pay you for the lowest,

00:07:37   but I think that is yet another thing that they're doing wrong

00:07:40   when it comes to the trade-in program,

00:07:42   if they want to be encouraging people to use that

00:07:44   rather than other means of recycling or reusing or repurposing their funds.

00:07:50   Yeah, I totally agree. I think the capacity should definitely be an element there.

00:07:58   I would understand if every single phone that went to the trading program went to recycling,

00:08:03   I would understand that more. Because it's like, well, you know, it isn't,

00:08:07   there is no real difference, right? Like, it's not like the SSD is physically larger or smaller

00:08:14   or whatever, right? But that isn't the case, right? They do take those phones and put them

00:08:19   for the Reaper program.

00:08:21   This episode of Connected is brought to you by Trade.

00:08:24   Myke, I believe you have gone through the Trade coffee experience.

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00:08:30   Oh, I love Trade coffee.

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00:08:52   And it comes from all of these hundreds of different roasteries around the US, or with

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00:09:02   Like Brad was just telling me today that he is using trade.

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00:09:11   That's cool.

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00:09:18   Yeah, no, I love it as the owner of a small business that small businesses, small roasteries

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00:10:40   Okay, so moving on a little bit, I want to talk about the studio display.

00:10:46   Remember when the reviews came out, some people were kind of mediocre, or you know, not super

00:10:52   excited.

00:10:53   The people weren't mediocre.

00:10:54   The cameras mediocre, and people said it was mediocre.

00:10:57   That's what I'm trying to get at.

00:10:58   Apple said there was going to be a software update to address some of the issues.

00:11:03   So there were image quality issues.

00:11:06   Some people felt like the rate at which center stage would like change the framing of the

00:11:13   image was kind of weird and a little bit slow.

00:11:17   The update is now out as a beta.

00:11:19   So the new macOS beta includes Studio Display firmware 15.5.

00:11:25   I wonder where they got 15.5 from.

00:11:28   That's such a specific number.

00:11:30   And you can install it if you're running that 12.4 macOS Monterey beta.

00:11:35   Apple says it has introduced refinements

00:11:39   for the camera tuning,

00:11:40   including improved noise reduction, contrast and framing.

00:11:45   Jason Snell's in the unique position

00:11:48   that he has two studio displays.

00:11:50   He has his review unit from Apple,

00:11:52   and then he has one that he purchased.

00:11:54   And so he has a video and article up

00:11:57   where one of them is running the new firmware

00:11:59   and one is running the old one.

00:12:02   And like, it's a little better, I guess.

00:12:05   framing is definitely better but it still doesn't look I think as good as

00:12:09   some people had hoped. I think there was just the thinking that it was just

00:12:13   gonna fix all of the possible problems right and justify physics to do that

00:12:19   like they were somehow gonna put a new camera in the thing

00:12:24   which wasn't gonna happen I mean I think it's honestly I think it's fine like I

00:12:29   would I would prefer something better but I would prefer a better camera in

00:12:33   all over Apple's. Honestly I think every front-facing camera that Apple makes

00:12:37   could be better even on the iPhone and there was a report that I saw last week

00:12:42   that they are gonna be improving the front-facing camera again finally put

00:12:46   an autofocus on it on the iPhone. Wait it doesn't have autofocus? No. How? It's so

00:12:53   funny only Samsung I think are the only... I guess it's just a fixed focal length.

00:12:57   Yeah I think that Samsung are the only ones that have it I mean and then I

00:13:01   think the focusing is that it does have focusing right you can tap to focus but

00:13:06   it doesn't have autofocus so like it's not doing anything to detect the focus

00:13:11   and doing it itself so you know and most people do not tap to focus they just

00:13:17   take a picture but the laptop cameras aren't good enough the iMac cameras

00:13:21   aren't good enough and the studio display cameras aren't good enough

00:13:23   because they're just putting whatever they're putting in there and I think now

00:13:27   it's just the not good enoughness of it is being exacerbated by the fact that

00:13:31   that they're cropping a wide angle, an ultra wide lens,

00:13:34   right, which I mean, everyone who's used the ultra wide

00:13:38   on the iPhone even knows that like,

00:13:41   only really this past year with the 14,

00:13:43   did the quality of that sensor get kind of good enough

00:13:46   to take regular photos on, you know what I mean?

00:13:48   Which is probably why they were able to put the macro lens

00:13:51   in 'cause they actually get quality out of it.

00:13:52   But even then you get so much noise from that lens

00:13:55   compared to the others.

00:13:56   So it doesn't surprise me really that the quality is worse.

00:14:01   I mean, my studio displays on the previous release,

00:14:06   I'm not gonna update to a Mac OS beta for this.

00:14:10   And when it does the correct,

00:14:12   'cause it still doesn't do correct detection

00:14:14   all the time with the flickering,

00:14:15   like the refresh rate thing, it does it,

00:14:17   but I sometimes have to open and quit apps multiple times

00:14:20   for it to actually lock in

00:14:21   and stop the screen from flickering.

00:14:23   When I can get it to work right, it's fine.

00:14:26   I mean, for Zoom calls, you know, like it's fine.

00:14:30   it's fine, but I wasn't expecting anything better from them to be honest.

00:14:34   I'm happy that they've made it better, but you know.

00:14:37   Yeah, I think people, I mean I think even Apple when they announced it,

00:14:41   they were like, and it's gonna be great for, you know, all these different things.

00:14:45   And I think they just made certain trade-offs to support center stage,

00:14:51   which I guess like is a cool feature. I mean it's nice on the iPads,

00:14:55   but that means that the quality overall is gonna be worse.

00:15:00   And I guess we could debate or people could debate

00:15:05   whether that was the right trade off.

00:15:07   I actually fall on the side that I don't think it was,

00:15:10   but I've never also never been in a situation

00:15:12   where like center stage like kept me from,

00:15:15   you know, having to adjust a monitor or something.

00:15:18   So I don't know, clearly Apple likes center stage

00:15:21   they're into it, it's showing up in a bunch of places

00:15:24   and they thought that, well, this is a good enough feature,

00:15:28   we're willing to sacrifice some image quality for it.

00:15:32   And to your point,

00:15:34   the Nupdate's not gonna like overcome the hardware

00:15:39   they have to use to support that feature.

00:15:42   - Yeah, I wonder if they should have waited

00:15:45   for center stage until they could actually

00:15:47   put a better sensor in there,

00:15:49   like an actual better camera in there.

00:15:51   I like center stage though, I think it's a good feature.

00:15:54   But I know Jason has always been very on the idea

00:15:59   of center stage on the Mac, but I don't know.

00:16:03   To me, I feel like it's more needed on an iPad than a Mac.

00:16:07   Like, because the iPad will sometimes be down on the desk

00:16:12   or like it's at weird angles where like the Mac

00:16:14   is always gonna be, at least a studio display, say,

00:16:19   is always going to be some consistent level

00:16:23   with your eye line, right?

00:16:25   Right?

00:16:26   Like a studio display specifically.

00:16:28   - Right.

00:16:29   - Laptops, maybe iMacs would be different,

00:16:31   but if you're buying the studio display,

00:16:33   surely you have it at like some kind of consistent angle

00:16:38   all the time to you as the person viewing the content.

00:16:43   I don't know on this specific product

00:16:46   how important center stage was.

00:16:47   Like on the laptop, I see it more because the laptops move.

00:16:51   I actually think center stage makes the most sense

00:16:53   products that aren't in fixed positions because that means they're more likely to be not at

00:16:58   the right angle at any one time?

00:17:01   I don't know, I feel like on a MacBook, you know, standard stage is useful there because

00:17:07   it's basically like an iPad and I mean sure you have the like the viewing angle you can

00:17:12   adjust with more freedom than an iPad Pro or than an iPad in a Magic Keyboard. I don't

00:17:17   think, like, I struggle to imagine, like, the benefit of center stage on an iMac or

00:17:24   a studio display. I mean, it's nice to have, but also those kinds of computers, you know,

00:17:30   they're stationary, they stay on a desk, and I, you know, if you're having a video call

00:17:35   there, I don't imagine you're constantly walking around, you know, the room where your iMac

00:17:41   or your studio display is, and the thing needs to keep you in frame, right? I mean, the iPad

00:17:46   makes sense, or a MacBook makes sense, you're keeping them in the kitchen, in the living

00:17:50   room, you're doing things, but you also want to be in the frame. An iMac, I don't know,

00:17:55   or a studio display, I mean it's nice to have, but it makes more sense, like you said, Myke,

00:18:00   for a portable device. I don't know, I think I'm just surprised that this image, honestly

00:18:06   to me it looks really bad, and I'm just surprised that even after the update it still looks

00:18:10   so washed up and softened, compared to...

00:18:14   It's the softness, I think, that really...

00:18:15   - It's the softness that it really sticks out,

00:18:19   especially compared to an old iMac Pro.

00:18:21   I don't know, I'm not sure if they are done

00:18:26   in terms of fixing whatever they can fix.

00:18:29   And sure, there's only so much that physics can do here.

00:18:34   I mean, if it's a bad camera, if it's a bad sensor,

00:18:37   it's a bad sensor.

00:18:38   But if you can do it,

00:18:40   if you can do a little more in software,

00:18:43   I think they should try.

00:18:45   because maybe there's something they can do for the softness of the image.

00:18:48   That part really sticks out.

00:18:52   Even if it's a decent camera that is not great, but it's not horrible,

00:18:57   maybe they can do a little something extra in software.

00:19:02   Yeah, I just don't know if an ultrawide is going to be able to do it.

00:19:05   Because it's the light, right?

00:19:06   I think that's the issue, is the amount of light that it can let in.

00:19:10   And it seems like, I mean, I don't understand cameras enough,

00:19:13   but it seems like ultra wide sensors just can't

00:19:15   let the same amount of light in

00:19:17   as a regular wide angle sensor can do.

00:19:19   And like you can do color stuff,

00:19:22   but I think the biggest thing from issue,

00:19:24   the amount of quality coming in more than like the sharpness

00:19:27   than the color correction stuff.

00:19:30   I think this is also one of these issues of like,

00:19:34   everyone sees it their own way, right?

00:19:37   And people just are either happy or unhappy,

00:19:41   but like even now, like we're all talking about

00:19:42   like different ways we think the image should look different.

00:19:46   But I think everyone can agree that like,

00:19:49   this is not a good image.

00:19:50   And it's just funny.

00:19:51   It's just like a funny thing really of like,

00:19:53   how did this even, how did this happen?

00:19:55   'Cause this really, I keep seeing this phrase a lot

00:19:59   like with various things recently, unforced error.

00:20:02   I like that phrase a lot.

00:20:04   Like this feels like an unforced error from Apple,

00:20:07   which is I guess kind of rare from them

00:20:09   with something like this, where it's like,

00:20:11   hey, we put this thing out and it's not good enough.

00:20:12   And we actually can't ever get it

00:20:15   to the place where you want it.

00:20:17   And that's just how it's always gonna be.

00:20:18   It's funny.

00:20:20   - And Federica, you mentioned the iMac Pro.

00:20:23   It had such a better webcam than anything else

00:20:26   Apple had out at the time.

00:20:28   This feels like a step in the wrong direction from that.

00:20:31   Like the iMac Pro, I think is still the high watermark

00:20:34   in terms of built-in cameras from Apple

00:20:37   on a Mac or a display.

00:20:39   And it wasn't so great, but still,

00:20:42   I mean, I guess anything compared to this image is better.

00:20:46   So it really says a lot that we are celebrating

00:20:48   the iMac Pro's webcam compared to the Studio Display one.

00:20:52   So I honestly don't know what's worse here.

00:20:57   But yeah, hopefully, I don't know,

00:21:00   with these things it feels very bad all the time to say,

00:21:03   hey, hopefully they'll fix it in software.

00:21:05   And there's only so much that they can do.

00:21:08   I don't know.

00:21:09   So Ryan in the Discord is saying,

00:21:11   why can't they put the camera processing from the phones

00:21:13   and the Mac cameras?

00:21:14   It doesn't matter because it's not the same sensor.

00:21:18   To my understanding, the front facing camera on the iPhone

00:21:23   is a better one than the one in the center stage, I believe.

00:21:29   Because I don't think it's the same wideness.

00:21:34   Because I think that's the biggest issue.

00:21:36   think I saw Renee Ritchie say today that it's the same image processor from the

00:21:43   iPad 9 or something? Yeah I think that's true which is the same front-facing

00:21:50   hardware as the iPhone 11. Maybe is as good as the iPhone 11 and we've just

00:21:55   forgotten what that one was like. Wasn't the iPhone 11 the one where we didn't

00:21:59   like the cameras in the end? That was the XS. No that was the XS? Yeah the

00:22:05   smart HDR was cranked all the way to banana's town on that one. The the iPhone

00:22:10   11 front-facing camera did not have center stage so they've taken that

00:22:13   hardware and like overlaid it or tweaked it somehow with center stage I think the

00:22:20   result is just not not up to not just enough which is a bummer. This episode of

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00:24:22   So allow me to provide some real time follow up on cameras.

00:24:26   So the studio display has a 12 megapixel ultra wide camera

00:24:29   with a 122 degree field of view at F2.4 aperture.

00:24:34   Both the iPhone 13 and the iPhone 11

00:24:38   have a 12 megapixel sensor with F2.2 aperture.

00:24:41   So the aperture is different,

00:24:42   and I do not believe the front facing camera on the iPhones

00:24:45   is an ultra wide sensor.

00:24:47   I think it's a wide sensor that's cropped in a little bit.

00:24:50   So there you go.

00:24:53   It's the sensor maybe something,

00:24:56   but like the lens is a different thing.

00:24:58   And I think this is part of where the problem's lying.

00:25:00   So that is as much as I have for you.

00:25:02   I'm sure many more smart people will talk

00:25:04   about camera things specifically.

00:25:07   - We woke up to news this morning

00:25:08   that Apple has launched its self-service repair program.

00:25:12   This was initially announced at the end of last year.

00:25:17   And just last week, Apple said an environmental update

00:25:21   that it was coming this year.

00:25:22   And I guess here it is.

00:25:25   So there's a link in the show notes to Apple's press release

00:25:28   where you can go to selfservicerepair.com,

00:25:31   order parts and tools.

00:25:32   We'll go to that website domain here in a few minutes.

00:25:35   It launches with 200 parts and tools for iPhones.

00:25:40   It's the iPhone SE third generation

00:25:44   and the iPhone 12 and 13 lines.

00:25:47   So nothing older than that.

00:25:49   Max with Apple Silicon, parts for those are coming later.

00:25:53   And at launch, it is basically just here

00:25:56   with Europe coming later this year.

00:25:59   What do y'all think looking through this site

00:26:00   about the types of parts you can order

00:26:02   and do you feel empowered

00:26:06   to take on your own repair at some point?

00:26:08   - Man, I love Best Buy.

00:26:10   BestBuy.com, that's what it looks like.

00:26:12   (laughing)

00:26:14   - It doesn't look like an Apple website.

00:26:15   - Well, it's not an Apple website, it turns out.

00:26:17   - It's not an Apple website.

00:26:18   - Yeah, so this consumed my morning

00:26:23   'cause this site is weird.

00:26:25   It is, the manuals are on Apple's website.

00:26:28   The warranty information is on Apple's website.

00:26:32   Ordering parts and tools, it's on this other website.

00:26:35   And so in looking at the website, self-servicerepair.com,

00:26:40   it doesn't look like an Apple property.

00:26:42   In fact, it uses like a Google font rubato

00:26:45   for its typeface.

00:26:46   very un-Apple in terms of branding and design,

00:26:49   to a point where a bunch of people on Twitter

00:26:51   were replying to me saying,

00:26:53   "If I didn't know this was an Apple condoned thing,

00:26:56   I would think it was a scam."

00:26:57   It's like, it looks fake, like it doesn't look

00:27:00   or act like an Apple website would.

00:27:02   And it turns out it's run by a company called

00:27:05   Service Parts or Tools Incorporated or Spot.

00:27:09   So if you look at the privacy policy or the contact page,

00:27:13   or when you go to make an account,

00:27:15   because you don't sign in with your normal Apple ID

00:27:17   like you would if Apple was selling these on their website,

00:27:19   you have to create another account on this website

00:27:22   to order parts.

00:27:23   Very strange.

00:27:24   It's all through this spot company.

00:27:28   - Why don't they have sign up with Apple or whatever?

00:27:31   - They, I don't know.

00:27:33   They do support Apple Pay,

00:27:34   along with some other weird payment stuff

00:27:37   that Apple would never support,

00:27:38   but there's no sign in with Apple.

00:27:40   It's very strange.

00:27:43   It turns out that Service Parts or Tools Incorporated

00:27:48   was just founded in Pennsylvania like in December.

00:27:52   It's owned by this bigger company

00:27:54   called Communications Test Design or CTDI.

00:27:58   At this point, I was like full beautiful mind

00:28:00   on this this morning.

00:28:01   I had like tabs open.

00:28:02   I was looking at like this company's paperwork

00:28:05   in the state of Pennsylvania, it was wild.

00:28:07   Very exciting day over here.

00:28:09   CTDI, this company that is a logistics company

00:28:12   and they handle part of Apple's trade-in program.

00:28:15   So if you're like Myke and you want the best deal

00:28:18   for an old iPhone, you trade it into Apple.

00:28:21   - Yeah, I love deals.

00:28:22   - If you're in the US, it gets shipped

00:28:24   to a warehouse that this company manages.

00:28:28   And so they handle other logistics for Apple

00:28:30   and Apple for some reason has seemed fit

00:28:33   to let this company handle the repair and tools,

00:28:39   purchasing rentals returns the whole thing which is fascinating to me and I don't know why they did it

00:28:45   John Voorhees suggested maybe there's liability issues

00:28:49   Maybe Apple just didn't want to involve their own people in it

00:28:52   The cynical take and the one that I got on Twitter over and over is that?

00:28:56   Apple

00:28:58   Doesn't want doesn't really want people to do this. And so I'm making it like a fake website. That's not on Apple's domain

00:29:05   Maybe some people won't trust it and they'll just go to the store

00:29:08   Yeah, and that's the first thing I thought also like they must really hate this thing

00:29:14   for this website to look so bad.

00:29:17   My take on it is close to that, which is just they do not want people to see these parts

00:29:23   on their retail store.

00:29:25   Yeah.

00:29:26   That Apple don't want people to buy this stuff and so they don't want to make it like that

00:29:31   they search for iPhone and they get iPhone 13 Pro display bundle, right?

00:29:35   Or like, "Oh, do you want two pieces of display adhesive for the iPhone 13 Pro?"

00:29:40   What about a display cowling comma lower? Do you want one of those?

00:29:44   You know, like, so I think it's a combination of these things of like,

00:29:48   also to piggyback on what you two were saying, like,

00:29:53   they don't want to deal with this. They don't want to apply like their own

00:29:57   resources, I'm sure, to manage and maintain this and provide customer

00:30:02   support and all that kind of stuff. Right.

00:30:04   So they just found the company that would be able to do it for them.

00:30:07   And this is what this company does. I mean,

00:30:10   they pride themselves in being a leader in the rapidly growing communications,

00:30:14   mobility and consumer device service industry. So like they're doing,

00:30:18   remember this stuff.

00:30:19   Remember,

00:30:20   remember when we thought Apple was going to do a nice online service repair

00:30:25   store that was going to look like an Apple store and they were going to do the

00:30:29   Apple packaging for the tools and all the instruments. Yeah,

00:30:33   that was a nice fantasy that we had. Talking about fantasies, I don't know why

00:30:38   exactly I thought in my mind that this was the beginning of a process where

00:30:44   people could easily do these things themselves. Yeah. But let me tell you

00:30:49   ladies and gentlemen, it ain't. Now technically, Stephen, of the three of us,

00:30:57   could go to the store and be like "hey I want to replace Myke's iPhone screen for

00:31:02   and it's like great I can go there I can get all the stuff I need you can go you

00:31:06   can get the iPhone 13 Pro display bundle which gives you like the screen and the

00:31:12   adhesive and like all the bits and bobs you would need but then it's like oh hey

00:31:16   if you want to do this you need these like 25 tools yeah right you need a

00:31:24   machine like an actual machine you put your phone in the display press it's

00:31:30   It's $216.

00:31:32   Yeah.

00:31:33   So you can, you can do, and I will, I will say, I will say hats off to Apple that they

00:31:39   will let you buy, right?

00:31:42   The heated display removal fixture tool, right?

00:31:45   Like you can buy it, right?

00:31:47   Like if you want it, like it's yours, you can buy it.

00:31:50   I kind of want one.

00:31:51   You can buy it.

00:31:52   Uh, what I also, I do also like the manuals or really, I love that they have the manuals,

00:31:57   right?

00:31:58   And I think, um, I fix it.

00:31:59   fix it we're talking about. It's like, it's great. The manuals exist now.

00:32:02   And they're pretty good.

00:32:03   Now, let me give you the, this is the tools list from the manual, right? For the, to replace

00:32:07   the screen on an iPhone 13 Pro Max. 6.7 inch heated display pocket, 6.7 inch repair tray,

00:32:15   adhesive cutter, display adhesive press plate, display press, ESD safe tweezers, ethanol

00:32:21   wipes, heated display removal fixture, heat resistant gloves, JCIS bit, micro sticks bit,

00:32:27   - Nylon probe, talk driver, talk driver, talk driver,

00:32:30   talk security bit.

00:32:32   So that's all of the stuff that you need, right?

00:32:35   - Have you seen sand and sand container?

00:32:38   - They sell sand?

00:32:39   - If you open the iPhone 13 Pro Max manual

00:32:43   in the list of tools,

00:32:45   you will see on the third section,

00:32:50   there's sand and sand container.

00:32:52   - What's the sand for?

00:32:54   - I don't know.

00:32:55   - Sand and sand container.

00:32:56   dry and clean dry untreated sand eight to ten cups

00:33:02   how to set up a workspace for battery safety

00:33:05   oh i know what it's for if you puncture the battery yeah the sand because

00:33:09   uh the lithium whatever reacts more strongly with the oxygen and so you like

00:33:14   you stick it in the sand and hopefully it won't blow up your

00:33:16   house under the warning heading which is amazing

00:33:21   how to handle a battery thermal event a thermal event aka when a battery

00:33:26   catches on fire. Or as we call it in the business a BTE. Got a real BTE going on here. So anyway

00:33:36   coming back to the tools, a lot of tools, you say Myke I don't want to spend all that

00:33:38   money on all those tools, it's going to be hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds,

00:33:41   probably thousands of dollars considering the display press and the heated display removal

00:33:46   fixture will come to $457 in total. You can rent from Apple an iPhone 13 Pro Toolkit for

00:33:53   $49 you can have it for a week. It comes in two huge Pelican cases which include all of

00:33:59   the stuff that you need to make to replace your own screen at home right? So it is this

00:34:06   huge thing that you get sent these two things take it back to UPS or send it for free $49

00:34:12   and then you take it back to a UPS store and ship it back to them. It's just a cool 79

00:34:16   pounds of tools. Is that how much it weighs? Yeah one case was 43 pounds and the other

00:34:20   weighs 36 pounds according to Apple's, or excuse me, Spot's website. So this, all of

00:34:27   this... The cases each have roller wheels to aid and transport. All of this is in

00:34:31   theory to replace one screen, right? If Steven's replacing my screen for me. Yes.

00:34:36   So this includes all of the machines and all of the tools and then you buy the

00:34:41   parts, right? So you can get those two things together. So after the rebate that

00:34:46   you get. Approximately for the parts and the tools, you will pay $330 for this.

00:34:53   Okay. To go into an Apple store at a warranty and get a screen replacement

00:35:00   is $329. Who's gonna do it? Okay, one thought. How many people are gonna buy this thing

00:35:12   and set up like in secret, like a site business,

00:35:16   fixing people's iPhones.

00:35:18   - I think that's one of the reasons

00:35:19   that you can buy the tools.

00:35:20   I think that they're aware of that.

00:35:22   And I think they're kind of okay with that, right?

00:35:24   Which I think is why they,

00:35:25   because if they weren't okay with that,

00:35:27   the tools would be rental only, right?

00:35:29   Like those big things,

00:35:31   like the proprietary big things that they've built,

00:35:33   you would just be able to rent those.

00:35:36   So basically at the point where you have paid

00:35:40   the same amount of money, there's no point to do this because you are running the risk

00:35:46   of not doing it correctly. And if you're doing it for the environment, right, you do it because

00:35:50   like a lot of this stuff is environment, environmental thinking, when you have shipped £79 of tools

00:35:57   backwards and forwards, that's not good for the environment, you have left a bad kind

00:36:02   of dent in the universe at that point. Yeah. So this to me is two things. One, it is enabling

00:36:12   people to be able to more easily do this stuff better, right? In the sense of what Federico

00:36:17   was saying, someone could buy some of these machines and they have access to the parts

00:36:21   and they could do it. Now, I know that there's like a little slower if you were going to

00:36:24   do it this way because you have to put in like an IMEI number into each for each phone

00:36:29   to order the parts but you know that adds like an extra day into the process if somebody

00:36:32   was bringing it to you to repair right like so for example maybe you're a large company

00:36:37   like say you're a construction company and you're doing this all the time maybe you'd

00:36:40   prefer to do it in-house I don't know why you would but maybe you would you know you

00:36:44   would get the price down eventually because you're not going to be paying that for those

00:36:47   fifty dollars for the tools or whatever I don't know the other real reason that they're

00:36:51   doing this is so they can say that they're doing it so it's it's one exactly one of the

00:36:55   legal things off their back. Yes. So this website, the self-repair website, has the

00:37:01   same energy of how Apple is approaching the solution for the Dutch regulators for the

00:37:08   payments outside of the App Store. Like it's literally the same energy. Like how can we

00:37:13   design this in such a way that it sucks and most people are not gonna do it. But hey,

00:37:19   technically we did it. So, hey, yay us, we complied, but you complied in the ugliest

00:37:26   possible way.

00:37:27   I like how some of the, like, I look at the nylon probe, which is called a black stick.

00:37:33   It's very common to use in computer repair. $3, but $9 to ship it. Come on.

00:37:41   Now I will be, I will say like, I'm being very particular, like I haven't looked into

00:37:45   to loads of things like, you know, the battery or whatever,

00:37:48   maybe it's cheaper to do a battery this way,

00:37:50   although that's probably the one

00:37:51   you definitely shouldn't do on your own.

00:37:52   - Yeah, the battery is cheaper after the part rebate.

00:37:57   So this works similar to how it works in like auto repair.

00:38:01   So like you replace the water pump on your car,

00:38:04   there's a core charge.

00:38:05   Like if you take back your old dead water pump,

00:38:08   they give you money off your purchase of a new one

00:38:11   because that will go get refurbished.

00:38:13   And so they're doing similar things here.

00:38:15   The battery ends up being a little bit cheaper,

00:38:18   assuming I didn't really factor in,

00:38:20   like if you need the $49 big kit of tools,

00:38:23   if you do, it's about the same.

00:38:25   - You do, you do need the big kit of tools.

00:38:28   You need the tools,

00:38:29   'cause you have to be able to take it off.

00:38:31   - I didn't look at the complete, like every scenario,

00:38:34   but I would imagine that most, if not all of them,

00:38:37   it's basically the same cost to have Apple

00:38:39   or an official Apple support partner do it

00:38:44   as opposed to doing it yourself.

00:38:47   - I mean, the battery is definitely more expensive

00:38:50   'cause like an out of warranty battery is 69 bucks

00:38:52   and it costs you 46, I don't know,

00:38:54   after the credit to get it

00:38:56   and then you're paying $49 for the tool kit.

00:39:00   - And you gotta pay when you burn your apartment down.

00:39:03   - Yeah, they don't know if the tool kit includes sand.

00:39:06   - Oh yeah. - I should look into that.

00:39:08   (laughing)

00:39:09   I just want to buy some sand.

00:39:10   Can I just buy the sand?

00:39:12   Let's see.

00:39:13   - I don't know if they sell sand.

00:39:15   I think you've got to bring your own sand.

00:39:16   There's no sand in the toolkit.

00:39:18   - Hmm, man, it's a bummer.

00:39:20   I don't see sand as a standalone thing.

00:39:22   I thought Federico said it was here.

00:39:24   - No, it's in the manual, but you gotta bring it.

00:39:26   It's a...

00:39:27   - Dang, I wanted Apple sand.

00:39:28   - B-Y-O-S, bring your own sand.

00:39:30   - I was just about to do that, Jack.

00:39:33   This is a B-Y-O-S program.

00:39:34   (laughing)

00:39:36   They have a sand container.

00:39:37   Now where's the sand container come from?

00:39:39   Steven, I can get you some sand.

00:39:41   Thanks man.

00:39:43   Look, I have a sand guy for real.

00:39:46   Yeah, just tell me what kind of sand you want

00:39:49   and I can get you some sand.

00:39:50   I think the grade.

00:39:51   He needs clean, dry, untreated sand, eight to 10 cups.

00:39:55   Right, but you want tropical sand, the Mediterranean sand?

00:39:59   You know.

00:40:00   It doesn't say.

00:40:01   Well, just say the word and I'll get you some sand.

00:40:05   Okay, I appreciate that.

00:40:07   Where do you get clean, dry, untreated sand?

00:40:09   Dang it, my guy. My guy has clean and untreated sand.

00:40:13   You know, top quality, top shelf.

00:40:15   You know?

00:40:16   You've got to keep it, well don't put it on the top shelf

00:40:18   because you have to keep it with him reach two feet on both sides of the workspace,

00:40:21   not above the workspace.

00:40:22   So the shelf will probably be above.

00:40:24   Can I just read this? How to handle a battery thermal event?

00:40:26   Yes.

00:40:27   This is, I know this is going to be good.

00:40:29   A battery thermal event is a rapid chemical chain reaction that occurs inside a battery cell.

00:40:33   They don't say this, but AKA, fire.

00:40:36   The energy stored in the batteries released suddenly which can cause outgassing and fire

00:40:41   Thermal event can be triggered by physical damage to the battery and proper replacement or repair or temperatures outside the batteries operating range

00:40:54   act immediately

00:40:55   If you notice any of the following signs of a battery thermal event

00:40:59   The lithium ion battery or device that contains one begins to smoke or emits sparks or soot

00:41:04   right that's not good soot is a bad one right like whoa that would you don't

00:41:09   breathe that in charred burned battery bits the battery pouch suddenly and

00:41:13   quickly puffs out the lithium-ion battery or a device that contains one

00:41:19   begins to emit hissing sounds don't let it hiss do it don't use water or an ABC

00:41:27   what's an ABC fire extinguisher oh it's a type of fire extinguisher because I

00:41:34   I hadn't gotten far enough in the sentence, right?

00:41:36   Like I was just like, oh, don't use water, of course,

00:41:38   but no, don't use water or an ABC

00:41:41   or a carbon dioxide fire extinguisher

00:41:43   on a battery thermal event or a device

00:41:44   that is on the going one.

00:41:46   Could do with some punctuation somewhere in that sentence.

00:41:48   There is none.

00:41:49   That is a very long sentence, Steven,

00:41:51   I don't think you'd like that one.

00:41:53   Water and ABC or carbon dioxide fire extinguishers

00:41:56   won't stop the reaction.

00:41:57   Do smother the battery or device immediately

00:42:00   with plenty of clean, dry sand.

00:42:02   Dump the sand all at once.

00:42:04   Timing is critical. The faster you pour all the sand, the sooner the reaction will be contained.

00:42:10   Who knew that sand was so good? You know what I mean? Sand is good. Okay. If your phone is on your

00:42:16   desk and it's on fire, are you taking your time pouring the sand? Are you just like...

00:42:20   Get a bucket of sand and just drop it there. It's like the ice bucket challenge, but for sand.

00:42:25   The sand bucket challenge. Do contact local fire authorities if further assistance is needed.

00:42:33   Do leave the room for 30 minutes after the reaction is contained, ventilate the area,

00:42:37   don't return until the area is clear of smoke. Do wait 30 minutes before touching the device,

00:42:43   wear the heat resistant gloves and safety glasses with side shields to remove the device from the

00:42:48   sand. Do wipe the affected area with water first, then wipe the area with an ESD safe

00:42:55   cleaning solution. Do dispose of the damaged battery or device including any debris removed

00:43:00   from the sand according to local environmental laws and guidelines. That is how to handle

00:43:07   a battery thermal event. Keep the sand in a jar or something on a shelf, you know, within

00:43:14   grabbing distance. And if there's a fire, just grab it quickly. Make sure you grab the

00:43:19   sand, don't grab, you know, grandpa or something on the shelf. Use sand and drop that on the

00:43:27   the fire and then leave the house for 30 minutes and then return once the explosion has been

00:43:33   concluded. All this honestly sounds very dangerous. Why would people do it in their homes?

00:43:40   To spend more money. So you would spend a lot of money. So let

00:43:43   me just get this straight. So you spend a bunch of money, you spend like what, $330

00:43:49   and you get an 80 pound box delivered to your house, right? And then you got to set up this

00:43:53   environment which needs to be a clean and safe environment and you got to have some

00:43:57   sand nearby, you're going to open an iPhone using those machines that look dangerous and

00:44:03   scary. There's a risk of a fire, and in that case you've got to take the sand and drop

00:44:07   it on your workspace, leave the house, and make sure that there's no... Honestly, just

00:44:13   go to an Apple store. You know? I will say, scrolling through the images of how you remove

00:44:19   the screen, it does look really fun. It looks fun. Like, the machinery, like, it's these

00:44:24   suction cups and like it looked you know Stephen were you gonna do anything like

00:44:30   this I kind of wish I had a phone that needed a screen but I don't have any

00:44:35   broken iPhone 12 or 13 is laying around you don't have to have a broken screen

00:44:40   to replace the screen that's true this feels like fertile YouTube soil if yeah

00:44:46   I think if you don't have to sign an agreement of some kind you mean fertile

00:44:50   YouTube sand. Here we go. Yeah I mean I thought about it I'm sure that I will

00:44:55   get beat to it so it is what it is. Jerry Rigg everything's probably already on it.

00:44:59   Yeah I think Quinn ordered basically one of everything. Well doesn't he always do

00:45:02   that? Yeah. I actually do really want to see him do it actually. I didn't think...

00:45:06   Yeah and he used to repair iPhones for a living so he knows what he's doing. I did

00:45:09   not know that. Yeah he was he was like the guy at the mall who's like hey come

00:45:14   in and let me fix your iPhone screen. Really? And now he's a YouTuber. I don't

00:45:19   actually know if that's true. I do know he used to repair phones. I don't know if it

00:45:23   was at the mall. Are you just making this up? No, he had a tweet today. It's like I used

00:45:27   to repair phones so I ordered a bunch of stuff. Okay. All right. All right. Cool. Cool. Cool.

00:45:32   Okay. I kind of hope he breaks one for the entertainment, you know? I mean, that's gonna

00:45:38   be fun. I hope he doesn't have a BTE though. No, I don't want a BTE for him. No BTE, but

00:45:44   just like casually break one without harm. That'd be fun. It'd be like, oh,

00:45:50   shocks have broken one. You know, I think the weirdest thing you can buy on this

00:45:55   website. I don't know what you would do to be in a situation where you need to

00:46:00   replace this, but you can buy an iPhone sim tray for like $7. That's a pretty

00:46:06   good deal. What is it like? What are you doing to a sim tray that you need to

00:46:10   replace it. Do you need a toolkit? There's a Ford, oh my gosh, there's a $4 sim eject

00:46:16   tool. Like the little paper clip thing. How much? You could, look, $4. This could be an

00:46:22   accent piece. You can buy them for the different colors. So you could buy a red

00:46:28   sim tray and put it in your iPhone. I could. I didn't think about that. For the

00:46:33   fashion mm-hmm okay or you could buy let's see iPhone 13 Pro Max we could buy

00:46:42   a camera and stick it in the camera it's gonna look better bottom speaker what

00:46:49   what's a camera how do you pronounce is cowling cowling yeah cow yeah I don't

00:46:55   know what that is I saw that that word earlier cowling count Stephen surely

00:47:00   when they put the max on here there's gonna be stuff you're gonna want though

00:47:02   right? I'm gonna I'm gonna try to I know what I should do I should try to build a

00:47:06   Mac out of parts I can buy on this website. How far can I get building a

00:47:10   MacBook Air? Well I don't think you can buy the logic board. Well no I don't

00:47:15   think you can buy the like the housing of the iPhone. Yeah can you you can't buy

00:47:20   the back plate. Yeah well you can buy the A15 for example you know like you can

00:47:24   buy the the core itself. Yeah I think yeah you can get a new Taptic Engine.

00:47:29   Yeah, whose Taptic engines are dying? How would you know? Could you get like, no, it's

00:47:38   not going to work, is it? Like I was thinking like, what do you want? Get the logic board

00:47:42   of an old iPhone, but use modern accessories with it. But it's not going to like the camera

00:47:47   is not going to be recognized. It's not going to fit. And it's not going to work. Yeah.

00:47:50   iPhone 13. Yeah. I'm intrigued to see what the, what the Mac, one of these looks like

00:47:54   to what will you be able to buy like for example like imagine a future where they have a MacBook

00:48:01   Air with a white keyboard could you would you be able to put the white keyboard in a different

00:48:04   computer that would be cool you know so yeah self service repair it's here you probably should take

00:48:11   advantage of it and maybe Apple's okay with that oh they definitely are can you buy send online

00:48:20   Yeah. I mean sure you can but not a lot a little bit. I think it's gonna be a lot.

00:48:25   Buying and selling sand. And it's gonna be bulk sand. Clean dry untreated sand.

00:48:31   You can, you can buy sand on Amazon. Yeah.

00:48:35   Did you buy it by the grain? There's like you can, okay so there's kinetic sand but that's like for

00:48:44   kids. Yeah that like sticks to itself. You've, that actually may be worse for a battery thermal event.

00:48:50   That's gonna catch fire for sure.

00:48:53   Also because it's colored and there's like chemicals in it.

00:48:56   One gallon play sand, highest quality, building and molding,

00:49:01   sandbox and play areas, $25.

00:49:04   Probably not play box like sand or sandbox sand

00:49:08   is probably not what you're looking for.

00:49:09   Natural decorative sand, two pounds.

00:49:13   Real sand for using crafts, decor, vase filler and more.

00:49:17   This episode of Connected is made possible by Hover,

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00:50:59   He just, he went and did it guys.

00:51:01   Yes. Myke bought some sand.

00:51:03   I'm happy to announce I have bought 46 billion grains of sand.

00:51:11   Well, it's probably not a lot.

00:51:12   It's probably, how many, okay,

00:51:15   I don't wanna think about that, that's too deep.

00:51:18   We're talking about this, okay?

00:51:22   So Elon Musk has bought Twitter, right?

00:51:26   That's the news, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

00:51:28   Well, he's entered an agreement to buy Twitter, technically.

00:51:31   It's not done until the fall.

00:51:33   Okay.

00:51:35   There's still hope.

00:51:36   How do we approach talking about this?

00:51:41   Not well.

00:51:42   Right.

00:51:42   Mm-hmm.

00:51:43   OK.

00:51:45   So I feel like, at the best of my abilities,

00:51:47   I'm going to share how I feel, which

00:51:51   is I used to be very fascinated by Elon Musk's figure.

00:51:59   To an extent, I still am for some things.

00:52:05   But especially over the past couple of years,

00:52:08   the kind of character is played on social media and the things he has said has made my respect for

00:52:19   the guy go really, really, really down. Starting with, you know, some things he said at the beginning

00:52:28   know, the pandemic, you know, just the general attitude he has on social media. And I'm,

00:52:39   I'm conflicted, right? I'm conflicted because on the one hand I look at space X and I like

00:52:43   that super cool. And I, you know, I like the, like the big vision thinking behind many of

00:52:51   the things that space X is doing. And I think we're all in agreement that, you know, doing

00:52:55   space stuff is neat and cool. I have weird feelings about space that I tell Steven a

00:53:03   lot. Exactly, but there's also the angle of, well, but it's a private space company, is

00:53:09   that really necessary right now when we have so many? Like, I don't know, I feel very...

00:53:14   Well in America it does seem like only private space companies are able to get anything done.

00:53:18   Like I don't know about worldwide, but this is what Liftoff taught me. Like, I don't know,

00:53:23   I am very, I'm very conflicted. And I would say though, I would summarize it as I don't

00:53:32   consider myself a fan of the guy. I don't like the guy. And I know that, you know, he

00:53:38   has a legion of fans on Twitter ready to attack you if you say this publicly. So it kind of

00:53:46   sucks that he bought Twitter.

00:53:47   Yeah, I mean, his successes in making electrified cars cool, and his success and he really has

00:53:56   revolutionized the low Earth orbit, like a launch industry through SpaceX. Those are

00:54:04   both amazing feats. And of course, he hasn't had them single handedly. And in SpaceX's

00:54:08   case, he doesn't even run the company day to day. Glenn Shotwell does and she does an

00:54:13   amazing job at it. I would argue that Tesla would be a better company if he

00:54:18   wasn't directly at the head of it and was more kind of the the engineering

00:54:22   inspiration like he is at SpaceX but maybe this is leading to it may be and I

00:54:27   had that thought maybe this is gonna be really good for Tesla but the but you

00:54:33   can't like everyone is complicated it's very hard to separate people's work from

00:54:37   what they say and all those things but it can be true that he's done amazing

00:54:42   things in his career and that he's a bit problematic on Twitter and some of his

00:54:48   views especially around free speech and moderation seem honestly just really

00:54:55   like poorly informed like I don't think he has any idea what he's getting ready

00:55:00   to get into if he is involved with Twitter day to day and he may not be he

00:55:05   may just buy it and let someone else run it but I don't think he understands the

00:55:11   complexity of the moderation problem.

00:55:15   I mean, he did this TED interview,

00:55:17   a lot of people have talked about it was really bad.

00:55:19   It was like, oh, well,

00:55:20   the algorithm is gonna fix everything,

00:55:21   we're gonna make it open source.

00:55:22   Like that doesn't actually do anything.

00:55:24   Like you cannot, A, you cannot look at that sort of code

00:55:28   and anyone understand what it's doing.

00:55:31   But B, moderation involves actual people making decisions

00:55:35   based on policies.

00:55:36   And we can debate those policies

00:55:38   and those people's decisions,

00:55:40   but this is not a problem that he can like apply AI to

00:55:44   and it be fixed.

00:55:46   And it's that that really worries me

00:55:50   that I don't think he,

00:55:53   according to his comments and what he said,

00:55:54   I mean, you don't know what's going on behind the scenes,

00:55:57   but it seems like to me,

00:55:58   he just has a really simplified model

00:56:02   of what's wrong with Twitter and how it could be fixed

00:56:05   that I think is just gonna fall apart

00:56:07   when it hits the real world.

00:56:09   Like that thing about we're going to open source the algorithm and that's going to make

00:56:13   it all better, like it just doesn't resonate with me because sure you can open source whatever

00:56:17   you want and sure you can have people take a look at how certain posts are promoted in

00:56:22   the timeline and how the algorithm works, but at the end of the day if I get harassed

00:56:27   on Twitter, if I get doxed on Twitter, if I get attacked by hundreds of anonymous people

00:56:32   on Twitter, that knowing that hey, but at least the algorithm is open source behind

00:56:38   the scenes. Like that's not going to fix anything. You know, it's, it's, it, maybe it's even

00:56:43   going to make it worse because you're going to give people with malicious intents even

00:56:48   more knowledge on how to play the algorithm to their, you know, in their favor. If anything,

00:56:55   that could make it better. That could make it worse, right? For people who feel unsafe

00:57:00   online. So this whole idea of we need to run a social media company on the premise of free

00:57:09   speech. The problem is that, you know, free speech is often used as an excuse, you know,

00:57:16   from this right wing, you know, leaning folks or just in general, even if you set the politics

00:57:23   aside, is used as an excuse from people who want to say whatever they want to say online.

00:57:29   And that's the thing, you can't. And there's laws, not just in the United States, in Europe,

00:57:34   in Italy specifically to me, there's laws that prevent you from saying certain things

00:57:38   to certain people. And that's the thing. My freedom ends where yours begins, right? As

00:57:48   the expression goes. I cannot just come out and say the worst possible things to you.

00:57:54   have to be repercussions, because that's how we live in a civil society, and that's also

00:58:00   just the basic human decency, an idea of respect for the other. And so when free speech is

00:58:08   brandished as an excuse to allow a certain group of people to harass other people, and

00:58:15   to make them feel small, and to make them feel bad, and to make them feel marginalized,

00:58:21   not free speech, that's just abuse. And it's not right, you know? And so using this expression

00:58:28   of free speech as this sort of trick to get people in the door and say, "Look, I'm gonna

00:58:34   do great things for you because I'm gonna value free speech, I'm gonna let you..." You

00:58:38   know, social media so far has kept your mouth shut because they wanted to silence you, they

00:58:44   wanted to censor you, "I'm gonna be the savior of social media for free speech." You're saying

00:58:49   that, I'm hearing other things. I'm hearing, "I don't care about moderation. I'm gonna

00:58:55   let everybody say whatever they want to say to other people because that's free speech."

00:59:00   And the consequences of that will be horrible.

00:59:02   Yeah, especially for people who are already experiencing that in other places in life.

00:59:08   Right.

00:59:09   Yup.

00:59:10   There's this term that gets thrown around with Twitter that it's like the town square.

00:59:16   It's the community market where we can all go and share ideas.

00:59:20   The reality is that just like the real world, life on the internet, like it reflects those

00:59:27   injustices and those biases people already have.

00:59:32   First thing in a lot of people's mind, I'm talking about in Discord right now, is those

00:59:36   communities, they are protected by moderation policy.

00:59:43   It's not perfect.

00:59:44   a lot more work that needs to be done in those areas.

00:59:47   But if your stance is going to be,

00:59:49   we're going to get rid of a lot of that stuff,

00:59:51   those communities are the ones that will suffer first.

00:59:54   It's not the rich white guys like Elon Musk.

00:59:57   It's just not.

00:59:58   And that's really what I mean by like,

01:00:00   he seems to lack like the,

01:00:03   like there's a humanity side of Twitter

01:00:04   that's not present in the other problems

01:00:06   Elon Musk is taking on.

01:00:08   And I think that he just doesn't have a grasp on that.

01:00:11   - Yeah, in the effort of attempted completeness,

01:00:15   I think he did say at one point,

01:00:17   like to follow up to be like,

01:00:19   to follow free speech within the law,

01:00:21   but like it kind of felt like

01:00:22   it was just a thing he was saying

01:00:23   'cause people were upset at him.

01:00:25   - Yeah, well, and even that he said

01:00:27   in the law of whatever country we're operating in, so like--

01:00:29   - Which is like incredibly--

01:00:30   - Incredibly complicated.

01:00:32   And-- - Yeah, it's like good luck.

01:00:34   All of the countries simultaneously.

01:00:37   - Yeah.

01:00:38   - So no one can actually say anything.

01:00:40   Like everything just cancels each other out

01:00:42   until we get to a point where like--

01:00:44   - Well, and does it mean that people in one country

01:00:46   can reply in a certain way and not another country?

01:00:49   Like Twitter's already dealing with this, right?

01:00:51   And you have the complication that Musk's company,

01:00:56   Tesla is huge in China.

01:00:59   They just opened a really big manufacturing site there.

01:01:02   He does a lot of business there.

01:01:04   And I think Twitter's actually banned in China currently

01:01:07   or they left.

01:01:08   know what direction that change came from, but it's all going to be so much

01:01:14   more complicated for him and for the company and I just like and I've thought

01:01:18   about it all week like I don't know what he gets out of it like I don't like I

01:01:23   don't understand why he's willing to take all of this on is it that he

01:01:29   doesn't really have a grasp on it is it that he thinks it's undervalued and

01:01:32   misled which it has been Twitter has always been mismanaged from the very

01:01:36   beginning. They had, you know, kind of like a musical chairs of co-founders and

01:01:43   CEOs and it's been, it's just been a mess from the very beginning. Maybe he can

01:01:48   bring some stability to that and I think for at least people who work at Twitter

01:01:52   some stability would be good, but I don't know what the, I don't know what the

01:01:57   long-term play is here. If he does, or new management, whoever, it's not just him, I'm

01:02:03   I'm using him as a stand-in.

01:02:05   If new Twitter leadership comes in

01:02:08   and they sort of embrace some of these ideas

01:02:10   about free speech and other things

01:02:12   and they dismantle some of the moderation

01:02:15   or they have to deal with all these international laws,

01:02:18   like there's a real chance

01:02:20   that it makes Twitter even worse than it is.

01:02:21   And like, Twitter's already not good.

01:02:23   Like I know we're on it.

01:02:25   I know the Apple community, Twitter is the hangout area.

01:02:29   It's not true for a lot of communities.

01:02:31   like Twitter is tech people and journalists and sports people and their

01:02:37   user base is small beyond those areas and even in those areas there's lots of

01:02:42   problems and so I just I don't know what he gets I don't know why he did it other

01:02:47   than it being a meme at the beginning I just don't I don't understand it really

01:02:53   blows my mind it's power and influence like Twitter is so I'm not saying things

01:02:58   that smarter people, I'm saying things I've heard smarter people say, like Twitter has

01:03:03   such an outsized influence in the world compared to, as you said Stephen, its user base compared

01:03:09   to say Facebook or whatever. You know like when people aren't talking about like all

01:03:15   Kim Kardashian's Facebook post as much as that, maybe Instagram, but as much as they

01:03:20   are like look at, you know, like news is made by tweets. People tweet things it gets on

01:03:25   the news right yeah watch any 24-hour news service potentially we can thank

01:03:29   Donald Trump for that right like you know like it was it's been going this

01:03:32   way for a while but like Trump made that like all politics happens on Twitter

01:03:37   right like this is just a thing that people do all the time and so considering

01:03:42   how important to society this service is the fact that it doesn't make money is

01:03:49   mad mm-hmm it doesn't make any sense right it should they should be able to

01:03:54   find a way to make money, but they have not been able to find a reliable way to make money.

01:03:58   So from a business perspective, if you think you have a good way to do it, you could do

01:04:03   it. If it was me, if I bought Twitter, I would just charge people for it. Like it would cost

01:04:08   10 bucks a year and they will probably make more money than they're already making. It's

01:04:11   just like easy, small amount of money, right? $10 a year to use the service that you use

01:04:16   every day. And honestly, I think if you did that, it would cover a lot of the problems

01:04:21   anyway, so just like $10 a year.

01:04:24   - Get rid of the people and the trolls

01:04:26   and the folks who really--

01:04:28   - Yeah, get rid of the bots and that was like,

01:04:30   that's what I would do.

01:04:31   Come in, $10 a year, no ads.

01:04:33   And if you don't pay, you can't use it.

01:04:35   That's the way I would do it, right?

01:04:38   Everyone's gonna have their own feeling about that.

01:04:40   I'm sure I'm gonna get a million people telling me

01:04:41   why all these people could, fine.

01:04:43   But that's what I would do, right?

01:04:45   If I was buying Twitter, that's what I would do.

01:04:46   I would make people pay for it.

01:04:48   Maybe he wants to do that, maybe he doesn't.

01:04:49   I will say, just my read on the situation,

01:04:52   I think at the moment he's just saying a bunch of buzzwords.

01:04:55   He doesn't know if he can do all these things,

01:04:58   and I'm not sure if he even wants to do all the things

01:05:00   that he's talking about wanting to do.

01:05:02   Does he really care about getting rid of all the bots?

01:05:04   Probably not.

01:05:05   Right, he's just saying, I think at the moment,

01:05:08   he's just saying a bunch of stuff,

01:05:10   and then when he actually takes control of the company,

01:05:13   he'll realize what he's able to do,

01:05:15   or what the person he puts in charge is able to do.

01:05:18   realize "well I don't really want to work here I'm just gonna put someone in

01:05:21   charge and they'll figure it out" yeah I don't think he's gonna become the CEO of

01:05:25   Twitter it's beneath him honestly like compared to being the CEO of Tesla

01:05:29   becoming the CEO of Twitter is demoting himself right like Tesla is a more

01:05:35   valuable more important in the grand scheme of things company I think than

01:05:40   Twitter right like I know I said this outsized influence thing but like you

01:05:44   You know, if he bought Facebook, becoming CEO of Facebook is more important than being

01:05:48   CEO of Tesla, like in my opinion, right? Like if you're ranking all these things. Like I

01:05:52   could actually make an argument that maybe it'd be more important to be CEO of SpaceX

01:05:56   than Twitter. Like you're just thinking about like a potential impact, right? Like, but

01:06:00   clearly Tesla, did I say Twitter? I meant Tesla, but SpaceX then Tesla. But Tesla is

01:06:05   just, I think, you know, for whatever reason, he sees that as the thing that he wants to

01:06:09   to be involved in on a day to day.

01:06:11   So like, I just reckon, and also like I understand,

01:06:14   like trust me, right?

01:06:15   Like I am not gonna be affected

01:06:18   by any moderation policy, right?

01:06:20   - Yeah.

01:06:21   - None of us are. - No.

01:06:22   - None of us are, right?

01:06:23   There are people that are affected

01:06:25   by moderation policy changes.

01:06:26   So please do not take this as me diminishing your opinion.

01:06:30   I don't think they're going to be able to get away

01:06:31   with changes to the moderation policy.

01:06:33   One, I don't think that they would,

01:06:35   that like people working at Twitter or mass

01:06:37   would wanna do it.

01:06:38   And two, legally, they're not going to be able to do this.

01:06:42   Because there is just more and more push from governments

01:06:46   all over the world about this kind of stuff.

01:06:48   And I just cannot imagine a world in which they're like,

01:06:51   no moderation policy, we're off to the races.

01:06:53   Like I just can't see it happening.

01:06:55   Like it doesn't seem like you would still be able

01:06:58   to hold the same level of social importance

01:07:02   if you got rid of that.

01:07:03   Let alone the fact that I just think

01:07:05   from a legal perspective,

01:07:07   it would just be too complicated to do.

01:07:08   Plus winding all that stuff back

01:07:10   just seems like more hassle than it's worth, right?

01:07:13   Like what would be the reason to buy Twitter

01:07:17   and then just be like, do whatever you want.

01:07:19   Like, I just don't think that that's his reason

01:07:21   for doing it.

01:07:22   I genuinely think for him, it's just like a case of like,

01:07:26   he wants to have this big power on the world, right?

01:07:31   It's like, I think we were talking about this

01:07:33   before we went live today.

01:07:34   Like why did Jeff Bezos buy a newspaper?

01:07:37   Like why did Steve Ballmer buy a sports team?

01:07:40   - It's the prestige of it.

01:07:42   - You know? - Yeah.

01:07:43   - Why did I buy a bunch of sand on Amazon?

01:07:46   - It's the prestige of it.

01:07:47   Same answer.

01:07:51   Will we be using Twitter in a year?

01:07:53   That's a fun thing to think about.

01:07:57   It's also very strange because I feel like

01:07:59   I owe so much to Twitter, you know,

01:08:02   as a network, so many connections. I mean, you guys very likely discovered you both via

01:08:12   Twitter and we've made so many connections over the years. And you know, Twitter is an

01:08:17   essential tool for our audience, you know, whether it's a podcast or a website, it's

01:08:23   where people can get the fastest updates from us. And so it's weird to think about a potential

01:08:31   Twitter-free future in case things go a certain direction with it.

01:08:38   So I honestly feel pretty concerned, because I love, and I realize this is my biased perspective,

01:08:48   but I love what I've been able to do professionally, you know, for work purposes on Twitter.

01:08:54   I dislike, and I cannot even begin to imagine what it's like for other people that are not

01:09:00   like me, I dislike what it's become from a personal perspective, you know? So it's

01:09:07   been a very useful work tool, but there's also the problem of, you know, moderation,

01:09:14   harassment, you know, having moderation policies that are constantly updated and

01:09:20   maintained and looked after, and coming in and saying, you know, "Free speech this

01:09:24   and free speech that it only makes me more concerned.

01:09:28   So it's hard to say optimistic, I guess,

01:09:32   would be my conclusion.

01:09:33   Yeah, yeah, I feel the same way.

01:09:35   And in a world where there are so many other things going on

01:09:40   trying to quiet the voices of people

01:09:44   who are dealing with all sorts of other things,

01:09:47   like I'm sure, I mean, it's scary.

01:09:50   It's scary to consider what social media platforms

01:09:53   would look like if they go down this road

01:09:58   of lifting moderation or following in the footsteps

01:10:02   of some like state governments here,

01:10:04   like saying teachers can and can't talk

01:10:06   about certain things.

01:10:07   Like it's a very scary time in a lot of the world

01:10:11   and seeing those influences on something like Twitter

01:10:16   or a much bigger platform like Facebook or Instagram,

01:10:20   like it is scary and it is sad.

01:10:23   And I think that's like my overall feeling about this is, is a feeling of sadness, not

01:10:28   only at the possible future, but of the damage that has already been done because of, because

01:10:36   of users on Twitter who are terrible people.

01:10:39   I think ultimately social media was a bad thing for the world.

01:10:44   Yeah I think so too.

01:10:45   Like we've had great things, like lots of people can talk about great things that have

01:10:49   happened in their lives because of it, right?

01:10:53   but I think the net result is to society more negative

01:10:58   than it is positive.

01:11:02   - Yeah, and I feel like that's what I keep thinking about

01:11:07   and feeling in this new cycle of Elon buying Twitter

01:11:11   is just a reminder of that and a reminder of

01:11:16   kind of how fragile it all is.

01:11:19   Like even with the moderation that is,

01:11:22   is on Twitter, like Twitter does have

01:11:26   in their moderation policies rules

01:11:29   around misgendering people,

01:11:30   but that rule is broken all the time.

01:11:33   Twitter's ability to handle user reports

01:11:38   when tweets get flagged seems bad at best

01:11:42   and negligent possibly even.

01:11:46   To imagine like how bad it is right now

01:11:50   and if that were to get worse,

01:11:51   It's very dark and I don't like it

01:11:53   'cause I like Federico, owe a lot to the network

01:11:56   and the contacts I've made on it.

01:11:59   And for my career or my profession,

01:12:02   it is an important way in which I communicate with people.

01:12:06   But at some point, Elon Musk or no,

01:12:10   that was always going to change, right?

01:12:11   Like I've always, oh, not always,

01:12:16   it's been the last several years since 2016 or so,

01:12:18   I've always felt like there's an end game for Twitter

01:12:21   that's bad and this may accelerate it and it may not.

01:12:25   Like, I mean, it may not.

01:12:27   I mean, we just don't know.

01:12:29   And I think that's kind of the point.

01:12:31   - I mean, it's no coincidence.

01:12:33   It's no coincidence to your point, Steven,

01:12:35   that over the past few years,

01:12:37   we've been growing our own private communities.

01:12:40   I don't think these things are unrelated.

01:12:44   It's not a coincidence that more and more folks

01:12:47   doing their own Discord servers, where it's a smaller, more contained space where you can apply

01:12:55   your own moderation policies, and where you can make people feel welcome in a safe environment,

01:13:00   and all that. It's not a coincidence, I don't think. And so, yeah, honestly, I'm just sad.

01:13:09   I'm sad and concerned, and usually I tend to be a pretty optimistic person, I think.

01:13:15   And I really would like to be regarding this news as well. I don't know. And there's also,

01:13:24   you know, the... I don't share the enthusiasm of, you know, the richest white man in the world,

01:13:33   you know. He's got that evil billionaire aura around him, you know. I don't know. It's just,

01:13:40   you know, do we really want the richest man in the world to also control, you know,

01:13:44   a communication platform,

01:13:46   that seems like potentially a bad idea.

01:13:49   I don't know, I don't know.

01:13:52   - And look, I mean, I wanna like wrap this up

01:13:54   by saying our point of view on this,

01:13:57   while we try our very best to listen

01:14:00   and understand everybody,

01:14:02   our point of view is limited by who we are.

01:14:05   And just like everyone else's is, everyone has that.

01:14:09   And I hope that the three of us

01:14:13   and our respective companies and projects

01:14:16   reflect a desire to be good listeners

01:14:21   to those who have different backgrounds from us,

01:14:25   because we all need that.

01:14:26   And that is like,

01:14:29   that's the beauty of what social media can be, right?

01:14:32   Like there are people in my life who had,

01:14:33   I mean, including the two of you,

01:14:35   but also people who don't look like the three of us,

01:14:37   don't sound like the three of us,

01:14:39   who I've met because of social media, right?

01:14:41   I have been educated and humbled by things

01:14:46   that I have seen and heard people talk about on social media

01:14:49   that make me a better, more empathetic person.

01:14:52   And that is the good that the social media networks

01:14:55   can bring.

01:14:56   - That's a good point.

01:14:57   There are points of view that I never would have considered

01:15:01   if it wasn't for the people that I follow on Twitter.

01:15:04   Like whole world views that I never would have been able

01:15:07   to understand.

01:15:08   And with that connection, right,

01:15:13   brings all of those good things, right?

01:15:16   But it also brings the possibility of all the bad things.

01:15:21   And the goal and the reason for moderation,

01:15:25   the reason we have rules in our member discord

01:15:28   is to strike the balance between those two things.

01:15:31   Unfortunately, these big social media companies,

01:15:35   Twitter, right there in it,

01:15:37   they haven't built the balance in the right place.

01:15:42   And that's really at the heart of the concern

01:15:45   is that with all this connecting of people and ideas,

01:15:49   can you foster community that makes everyone

01:15:51   at the end of the day, better human beings for it?

01:15:55   Or do you let hateful, small people rule?

01:16:00   And Twitter and Facebook and Reddit and MySpace before them,

01:16:07   Like they've all struggled with this.

01:16:09   And when you see someone or any change

01:16:13   coming to those social networks,

01:16:14   you just have to question what happens to that balance.

01:16:17   And I think for me, like, that's why this feels so heavy.

01:16:20   It's not that, oh, I just like love hanging out

01:16:23   with my friends on Twitter and like, that's fine.

01:16:25   I would be sad if that went away.

01:16:27   But the bigger picture I think is what is eating it,

01:16:30   so many of us, of finding a way to keep the good

01:16:36   and to nourish the good and keep the bad at bay.

01:16:40   And I'm just not convinced Twitter's ever done

01:16:42   a good job of that.

01:16:43   I mean, their outgoing leadership is a joke,

01:16:46   but so is the new guy.

01:16:48   And that just gives me pause.

01:16:50   - Maybe it's just a cursed company, you know?

01:16:53   - That's also a theory.

01:16:54   - It's the curse of ODO.

01:16:55   - It is.

01:16:56   - So you're saying that ultimately all the problems

01:16:59   come down to podcasts?

01:17:01   - Podcasts, yeah.

01:17:03   That is what I'm saying, yeah.

01:17:05   I don't love that.

01:17:06   [Laughter]

01:17:07   No, no, no, it's fine.

01:17:10   It's fine.

01:17:11   All right?

01:17:12   All the good things, all the bad things.

01:17:13   It all comes back to podcasts.

01:17:15   I mean, did you see the Joe Rogan's audiences increased?

01:17:18   Yeah.

01:17:19   Yeah.

01:17:20   Not surprised.

01:17:21   Not surprised, really.

01:17:22   So you know what I'm saying?

01:17:23   All the bad things, right?

01:17:24   All the bad things.

01:17:25   Yeah.

01:17:26   And that's at the risk of getting back on the soapbox just for a second.

01:17:29   No, get it, man.

01:17:30   Get on it.

01:17:31   I just made that soapbox bigger and then you can see it.

01:17:33   Yeah, it's full of sand, actually.

01:17:34   It's a sandbox.

01:17:35   Sandbox.

01:17:36   I'm in the sandbox.

01:17:38   Batteries are buried everywhere.

01:17:40   You know, the thing that's been floating around of like, I will leave Twitter when X and Y,

01:17:43   we all have our own red lines there.

01:17:46   I think maybe a lot of us even have the same exact red line.

01:17:50   But the thing with like Joe Rogan's audience being bigger, because of the the the spicy

01:17:57   rhetoric around the things that he says, that's a very real thing on the internet, right?

01:18:01   It's a very real thing in real life.

01:18:03   Like when you pass a car crash,

01:18:04   you turn around to look at it, right?

01:18:06   We all have that sort of brokenness inside of us.

01:18:10   And like that's a decision everyone has to make, right?

01:18:12   About if they stay or don't stay on any one social network.

01:18:16   Like a decision that I've made that is inherently

01:18:19   and fundamentally at odds with itself is I'm not on Facebook,

01:18:23   but I am on Instagram, right?

01:18:24   Like all that money flows to the same people.

01:18:27   It's all the same at the end of the day, the same company,

01:18:30   but the products are different and I choose to interact

01:18:32   with one product and not the other.

01:18:35   Everyone listening, the three of us,

01:18:37   everyone on Twitter is gonna have to make that decision.

01:18:40   But I would say that a factor in that decision

01:18:45   it should not only be like, what does Twitter do?

01:18:49   There's like the red line that I can't cross with them.

01:18:52   But I do think that there is something to the idea

01:18:56   that like, if everyone who like cares about the things

01:18:58   that we care about in terms of listening to people

01:19:02   who have different points of view and background,

01:19:05   people from different places,

01:19:06   people from different walks of life,

01:19:08   people with different identities than our own.

01:19:11   If I left Twitter, I would lose access to some of that.

01:19:16   As someone who hopefully is bringing more good than bad

01:19:19   to the platform, if I leave,

01:19:21   it's a little bit of good that goes with me, right?

01:19:23   If we all leave, it's a little bit of like good people

01:19:26   who really care about each other,

01:19:28   and that makes the platform worse a little bit.

01:19:30   So like, I'm not casually closing my Twitter account.

01:19:34   I actually take that decision like really seriously

01:19:36   and not even from like a,

01:19:38   not even from a career standpoint,

01:19:40   which is like a whole different debate,

01:19:41   but just like as a human being,

01:19:44   do I make this place better or worse

01:19:46   and does it make me better or worse?

01:19:48   I just think that's a really complicated decision

01:19:50   and one that like it's easy to joke about

01:19:52   because a bunch of people are like, I'm gonna leave.

01:19:54   And that's fine.

01:19:54   Like if you feel that way, I'm not saying you shouldn't,

01:19:56   but I think it's actually like a really big decision

01:19:59   to consider if and when someone does that.

01:20:01   - So I don't have a red line, right?

01:20:05   There isn't like a single thing that could happen

01:20:09   that I can imagine that's like, well, that like,

01:20:12   now we've done it, you know, like,

01:20:14   now I'm gonna delete my account.

01:20:16   For me, it is the feeling of,

01:20:18   if everybody who's not like me is leaving,

01:20:24   then I'm like, ah, now's the time, right?

01:20:29   For what you were saying, right?

01:20:30   Of like, I use Twitter as a tool to broaden my worldview.

01:20:35   And I know the changes that it's had on me,

01:20:38   the things I understand,

01:20:40   the things I have view of that I didn't before.

01:20:45   And if all of these people, people that don't look

01:20:48   and come from the same background as me,

01:20:50   all decide that like now's the time to go,

01:20:54   like this is too much,

01:20:56   then I need to look at it and be like, yeah, okay.

01:20:59   Right, like there isn't like a thing, right?

01:21:02   I could imagine for a lot of people, right?

01:21:04   Like I would just say what's not being said.

01:21:06   If Donald Trump comes back to the platform, right?

01:21:09   I imagine that that is a line where a lot of people say,

01:21:12   well, screw this.

01:21:13   But what I would say is I was there the whole time

01:21:16   he was there the first time.

01:21:18   So that isn't the thing for me.

01:21:20   - That was before he tried to start a civil war, but.

01:21:23   - Right, but he did so many bad things.

01:21:26   Like this is, Twitter only got rid of him

01:21:28   because they could then.

01:21:29   Like he was at one point trying to stir up a nuclear war

01:21:34   with North Korea.

01:21:35   - Yeah, that was also, yeah.

01:21:36   - On Twitter, right?

01:21:37   Like he did so many bad things

01:21:40   that they couldn't get rid of him, right?

01:21:43   And I was like, you know,

01:21:46   I was there the whole time when he was there, right?

01:21:48   And so, but I'm not saying like if he,

01:21:50   if that's your red line, good, have it, right?

01:21:53   Like, and if it happens, stand by it.

01:21:56   But for me, it's like, there isn't,

01:21:58   I don't see there being this like one event, right?

01:22:01   Like I don't have in my mind this one event.

01:22:03   It's like a thing that if I notice over time has changed

01:22:08   or like there is something that happens,

01:22:10   whatever it might be, and then there is this like

01:22:13   knock on effect of everybody saying, I'm out here, right?

01:22:18   and it's again, these people that don't come from my world,

01:22:21   then I'd be like, right, I don't wanna be the only like,

01:22:24   I don't wanna be standing in here and looking around

01:22:26   and everyone's just like me, 'cause that's suggesting

01:22:29   that this maybe isn't the right place anymore.

01:22:32   You know what I mean?

01:22:32   So like, I was at the, there isn't this,

01:22:34   like I think for a lot of people,

01:22:35   they do have that one thing.

01:22:36   And I'm not saying you shouldn't,

01:22:37   like that is like a perfectly valid thing.

01:22:40   I'm saying for me personally,

01:22:41   I don't really have that one thing.

01:22:43   Like it has to be a change.

01:22:45   Because if Trump comes back and then everyone stays on Twitter to complain about it, right?

01:22:52   And then they're going to stay on Twitter to complain.

01:22:54   Then it wasn't that bad thing, you know?

01:22:58   I don't know.

01:22:59   I don't know, right?

01:23:00   This is so complicated.

01:23:01   This is always the problem talking about this stuff on a podcast.

01:23:03   I'm sure there's people going, shaking their head and being like, "Myke, I can't believe

01:23:06   you're saying these things."

01:23:07   Just understand that I'm a human being and I'm just talking.

01:23:09   Yeah.

01:23:10   And we're trying to approach this, I think, with as much humility and thoughtfulness as

01:23:14   we can.

01:23:15   But it is really, really complicated.

01:23:18   And because Twitter's the, I mean, it's like, again, like I said, it's like the meeting

01:23:21   place for our sort of Apple nerdy community amongst many other communities.

01:23:27   It makes it harder to talk about because it is also like, I was going to say it's meta,

01:23:31   but that's a company.

01:23:32   It has this like extra layer to it that is, it's just, it's hard to wrestle with.

01:23:37   And hopefully what we have talked about, like that comes across that the three of us are

01:23:42   wrestling with it and don't quite know how to feel

01:23:46   or what to think about it.

01:23:47   And it was going to change over time

01:23:49   as this continues to unfold.

01:23:51   I think really though at the end of the day,

01:23:53   all this does is it accelerates

01:23:55   what was already coming for Twitter.

01:23:56   I think that's what I was trying to get to

01:23:58   a few minutes ago when I said for a while,

01:24:00   I felt like there's an end game.

01:24:02   Like this, I think just speeds it up.

01:24:06   And either in five years,

01:24:07   either Twitter will be a fantastic place.

01:24:09   that's like well-moderated and safe for everyone,

01:24:13   or it'll be effectively gone for any of us

01:24:16   who care about other people.

01:24:19   And that is what it is, I guess, at the end of the day.

01:24:22   - I will say, as time has gone on,

01:24:26   my ability to leave is just becoming more likely.

01:24:30   - Yeah.

01:24:31   - Like, as time has gone on for me,

01:24:33   I'm not like more and more unlikely to leave Twitter.

01:24:36   Like, I don't have a plan,

01:24:38   'Cause I don't have a goal of why.

01:24:41   But if I felt like I needed to,

01:24:45   my ability to do that,

01:24:47   I think has only gotten easier over time.

01:24:50   Because it isn't a nice place.

01:24:53   It is the quote unquote toxic hell site, right?

01:24:55   Like it is bad, right?

01:24:58   Like even if you are lucky enough

01:25:01   to not have it be bad actively to you,

01:25:05   it's impossible to go on Twitter

01:25:07   and not feel bad a lot of the time

01:25:10   because of what's happening around it.

01:25:12   Like you don't have to look very far

01:25:14   to find things that make you angry, upset, you know,

01:25:16   mad, like all these kinds of things.

01:25:18   So like, you know, there was a lot of good,

01:25:21   there's a lot of bad, but I just think over time,

01:25:24   over my, God, like 15 years of using it,

01:25:28   the equation has changed more.

01:25:31   Like at first it was all good, right?

01:25:34   And then the good and bad is shifting for me, you know?

01:25:38   So maybe that's why I come to this view of like,

01:25:41   I think that maybe net for the universe,

01:25:43   it's social media has been bad.

01:25:45   Just 'cause I feel like for my own personal balance,

01:25:48   Twitter, which is my main social network,

01:25:50   the good/bad scale is tipping.

01:25:54   And as consistently tipped for the last 15 years

01:25:57   in the bad, not anywhere back towards the good.

01:26:00   - So what we're saying is that we're not gonna be

01:26:02   putting a bid together to buy a social network.

01:26:05   - I told you guys years ago I wanted to buy Yo!

01:26:09   and then Peach and you never listened to me

01:26:12   and now look how valuable both services are.

01:26:15   - Peach is still around.

01:26:17   The guy from Vine bought it I think.

01:26:19   - Yeah.

01:26:20   - But I don't know if it's like a thing anymore

01:26:24   but it's alive.

01:26:26   - If you wanna find links to stuff we spoke about

01:26:28   head on over to our website

01:26:30   relay.fm/connected/395.

01:26:34   While you're there, you can join Connected Pro.

01:26:36   It's a longer ad-free version of the show

01:26:38   each and every week.

01:26:39   You can also send us an email from the website

01:26:42   with feedback or follow-up.

01:26:44   We love hearing from everybody.

01:26:45   I would especially love to hear

01:26:47   if people do start doing their own iPhone repairs,

01:26:50   how that goes, because that seems like a wild time to me.

01:26:54   Maybe if Myke comes back to the US this year,

01:26:56   maybe we can order some parts into his phone.

01:26:59   It'll be fun.

01:27:00   Would you let me fix your phone?

01:27:01   - I don't know if I would trust you more

01:27:02   than I trust myself.

01:27:03   - I don't know if that's a good thing or bad.

01:27:05   - I don't think it's bad, but it's, I don't,

01:27:07   like I think two years ago I would have been like,

01:27:10   oh, there's like no way I could do it,

01:27:12   but Steven could definitely do it, the two of us.

01:27:14   But now I feel like--

01:27:15   - But now you can solder and stuff.

01:27:16   - I feel like I'm more experienced.

01:27:17   I think next, it's next Friday on,

01:27:20   you guys asked me if I got anything to talk about.

01:27:22   Next Friday on the sixth,

01:27:23   I'm gonna take apart the keyboard.

01:27:25   - Doing the touch ID modification?

01:27:27   - Yeah, I'll let you know the week after

01:27:28   I feel about popping up in an iPhone because if that goes south then there's no way I could do an iPhone.

01:27:34   All right, well you can find us all online. Federico is the editor-in-chief of macstories.net.

01:27:39   Winding down automation April, so be sure to keep an eye on the the Mac Stories homepage as you guys

01:27:47   finish out the month strong. Myke is the host of a bunch of other shows here on Relay FM and of course

01:27:53   the Friday Keyboard Club or Touch ID Disassembly Club this week. It's still a

01:27:58   keyboard. It is still. It will be for a little while longer. Yeah. My goal by the

01:28:04   way is to try and embed it in another keyboard but I don't know if that's

01:28:07   going to be possible. I need to be able to see the parts and try and

01:28:12   understand if it's possible but it is my goal to try and retrofit into another

01:28:16   keyboard. Fantastic. I also host Mac power users here on Relay FM and you can find

01:28:21   my writing at 512 pixels.net. I'd like to thank our sponsors this week. They were trade

01:28:26   coffee indeed and hover. Until next time, guys say goodbye.

01:28:30   Adios, El Chirio.

01:28:32   Bye y'all.