390: The Permanence of Objects


00:00:00   [MUSIC PLAYING]

00:00:03   From Relay FM, this is Connected.

00:00:10   Welcome to episode 390.

00:00:13   I am your host-- well, actually, one of your co-hosts,

00:00:15   Tom Federico.

00:00:16   And it's my pleasure, first of all,

00:00:18   to thank our four sponsors this week, Squarespace, Hover,

00:00:22   Trade Coffee, and Theragun.

00:00:24   You will be able to hear more about them later.

00:00:27   But it's also my pleasure to introduce my other co-host from the United States of America,

00:00:32   more specifically Memphis, Tennessee, Stephen Hackett.

00:00:35   Hey Federico.

00:00:37   Hi.

00:00:38   Hey.

00:00:39   I think I'm getting the hang of these intros.

00:00:42   It was good.

00:00:43   You hit the "from" really hard.

00:00:44   Yes, you gotta do that, right?

00:00:46   You gotta do that, because Myke does it, has been doing it forever.

00:00:50   I do not do it anymore.

00:00:52   No, you do it.

00:00:53   Jason used to make fun of me all the time.

00:00:55   It's like how Austin dropped the "hey guys, this is Austin".

00:01:00   But it's not exactly the same, but yeah, he did stop doing that.

00:01:03   But I do still say for him, I just don't put all the energy on it, you know?

00:01:07   Yeah.

00:01:08   Well, now I do.

00:01:09   So I am your...

00:01:10   The baton has passed to you.

00:01:14   The bassoon has passed to you Federico.

00:01:16   And if you want to hear more about bassoons and other flute-like instruments, make sure

00:01:22   to sign up for Connected Pro.

00:01:24   very serious, very professional, members-only version of Connected that people can get where,

00:01:30   Myke? At getconnectedpro.co. Yes. Anyway, we're jumping ahead because Stephen, you are supposed

00:01:36   to introduce our third co-host from London, England. Yes, we are joined by Mr. Myke Hurley.

00:01:43   Hello. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hey, I missed y'all last week, but I enjoyed listening to the show. I

00:01:50   I thought it was a very good episode.

00:01:52   - Thank you.

00:01:53   - And now I'm back.

00:01:55   - Spoke a lot about video games as we all want to do

00:01:58   when you're not around, yep.

00:01:59   - A friend of mine texted me and was like,

00:02:01   I'm listening connected, you're not on it.

00:02:02   And I can't tell if I accidentally hit play on remaster.

00:02:05   It's like, yeah, they do that.

00:02:06   - We do that.

00:02:07   - It's fine, it's fine.

00:02:08   It's always a good episode.

00:02:09   Let's start with some follow up.

00:02:11   And this week it is mostly about the studio display,

00:02:16   which you all spoke about last episode.

00:02:18   - Myke, a little bit.

00:02:19   - A little bit, yeah.

00:02:20   promised that you would. We really built the anticipation for it, you know, so you got

00:02:26   to deliver now. Yeah, I went to a store with Myke, do you have a shipping date on yours

00:02:30   yet? Nah man, it's just sometime between the 30th of March and sometime in April. Yeah,

00:02:37   that's what my Mac Studio says. Yeah, oh really? Because you built a little, right? I did,

00:02:43   yeah, we will get to that, there's lots of Mac Studio stuff later in the episode. But

00:02:48   Reviews are out, everything.

00:02:50   I caught up, watched them all, read them all.

00:02:52   And it's just so interesting to me

00:02:54   that this display seems to have some camera issues.

00:02:59   I don't think we'll have to go over that.

00:03:00   It's been covered a lot.

00:03:01   But what's interesting to me is that this thing is,

00:03:03   it's not even like basically a computer.

00:03:05   It is a computer.

00:03:06   Like it is what, an iPhone 11 inside or an old iPad Air.

00:03:11   It's got the A13 bionic, lots of storage.

00:03:14   It's so interesting to me the way they solved this.

00:03:16   - I enjoyed a tweet from Joanna Stern.

00:03:19   She was like, "I'm looking forward

00:03:20   "to the first tear down of this

00:03:22   "where they take the screen off

00:03:23   "and an iPad just falls out."

00:03:24   - Yeah, yeah.

00:03:25   - That was pretty funny.

00:03:27   - It looks like a computer inside.

00:03:30   It's pretty interesting.

00:03:34   And even back in the days of like the Thunderbolt display,

00:03:38   they were putting more and more into the monitor, right?

00:03:42   to handle all of the I/O and all the display stuff.

00:03:46   The Pro Display XDR has lots of fanciness in it.

00:03:50   It's, you know, big, thick, chunky thing

00:03:52   with lots of spinning parts, fans,

00:03:54   and you know, the creepy holes

00:03:56   that now I'm touching on either side of my monitor.

00:03:58   And this thing just really kind of follows

00:04:00   in those footsteps, but it's the first time

00:04:02   I think we've seen really Apple basically just picking up

00:04:05   like an A series chip and putting it directly into a display.

00:04:09   But it makes sense.

00:04:11   This is obviously really good for like embedded systems.

00:04:13   It can run forever, nice and stable, plenty of horsepower.

00:04:17   We'll see if they can solve the camera thing.

00:04:19   And hopefully it's not something

00:04:22   that the A13 is just underpowered for,

00:04:25   but because it runs iOS, they can just update it.

00:04:28   And there were some tweets over the last few days

00:04:32   of people looking at the updates,

00:04:33   looking at the tech details.

00:04:35   It's pretty interesting stuff to me.

00:04:37   - It's interesting as well that they've,

00:04:39   that it's actually got 64 gigabytes of storage, right?

00:04:42   Like that just feels so weird.

00:04:45   Like I did to put storage in a display.

00:04:47   - I mean, you gotta cache the pixels.

00:04:50   - Yeah, you gotta cache the pixels.

00:04:53   My guess is that the A13 they're using,

00:04:56   like that's just the most efficient one they have around,

00:05:00   but it seems like a waste.

00:05:02   I don't know why.

00:05:03   It has to be coming down to economics.

00:05:05   I don't know why you would do it otherwise.

00:05:07   - I think I heard someone say,

00:05:08   I don't remember who now, but like just the idea that they maybe just have these basically

00:05:13   packages of things, right? And like an A13 with a 64 gigabyte SSD is just like a thing

00:05:18   they already have tons of or can very easily make. So they just put it in there even though

00:05:23   they'll maybe never need that amount. Like, but they need some, right? Because it runs

00:05:28   iOS, like a version of iOS, which is also hilarious. But yeah, question. I have a question

00:05:36   for you. I don't know if anybody knows the answer to this yet. Is it possible to do touch

00:05:42   ID on a keyboard with a Mac that doesn't support it if you have that display? Does anybody

00:05:48   know the answer to that question? Do you understand what I'm asking?

00:05:52   I don't know. My guess would be no, that they're not sending any like secure enclave authentication

00:06:00   over Thunderbolt.

00:06:02   Because I know that the display enables a Mac to do things that otherwise a Mac couldn't

00:06:07   do like spatial audio and stuff like that.

00:06:10   And Ahoy telephone will work on Macs that don't support it if they're hooked up to this

00:06:14   display but I have not seen anything about Touch ID.

00:06:16   I would be surprised if they had enabled that.

00:06:19   It'd be cool but...

00:06:20   Yeah fair enough.

00:06:21   I just wondered how much of the package actually gets included.

00:06:26   There was another tweet that I really liked by this guy named Federico who said Apple

00:06:29   is making a new consumer display that has the guts of a base model iPad, but the iPad

00:06:35   still doesn't really support external displays. That made me laugh.

00:06:38   Yeah, well, that guy's an idiot, so of course he makes me laugh.

00:06:41   I want to see him know.

00:06:43   Well, I mean, it's true, though, right? It is a base model iPad inside. You know, it's

00:06:49   even got the 64 gigs of storage. And I just find it—I understand, like, this is a display,

00:06:55   a modern display that, you know, you start seeing this convergence of, well, it's not

00:07:00   just a monitor, it also powers software features even for Macs that do not have them, so it

00:07:05   makes sense to have an A13 inside, but if you think about it, it's kind of ironic that

00:07:11   the same hardware, right, of a base model iPad is in a display, and that of course the

00:07:17   display does display things, but the iPad still can't. And, you know, it's a funny tweet

00:07:23   but the underlying point is true. I would be really surprised. I actually also liked

00:07:30   this tweet from Chris Lolly, friend of the show, if anybody can find it. It was in response to this

00:07:37   tweet, I think. And Chris said, like, personal theory, you know, I see that the iPad Pro supports

00:07:44   the, um, the, what's the Pro Display XDR? Okay, I got it. I had a bit of an epiphany over the weekend.

00:07:52   The studio display requires the USB-C 10 gigabit per second.

00:07:56   The Pro Display XDR requires Thunderbolt.

00:07:58   The iPad Air got that USB spec

00:08:00   and the iPad Pro got Thunderbolt.

00:08:02   Maybe I'm reading too much into this,

00:08:04   but monitor support coming in iOS 16?

00:08:06   - So that would be- - This feels like,

00:08:08   this to me, no offense to you and Chris,

00:08:12   the desperation of an iPad user.

00:08:15   - Probably. - Of like,

00:08:16   trying- - No, you're right.

00:08:17   - Like doing the string, you know,

00:08:18   like the always sunny meme.

00:08:21   like please give me what I want and I will find a way to get there. Maybe he's right

00:08:25   but I don't know. I just feel like, you know, to hurt too many times, that kind of thing.

00:08:30   Still I'm gonna be upset if they don't do it in 16 because it's just so obvious at this

00:08:37   point that all the pieces for this are ready. They just gotta do it and honestly they have

00:08:42   been ready for the past couple of years. That's what stings here, that they have done the

00:08:46   pointer and the magic keyboard in 2020 and multitasking was already there. So I guess

00:08:53   the only thing that they added was multi-window, but that was also in 2020. So really for the

00:08:57   past two years, all the technical pieces have been in place, but they haven't done it. And

00:09:03   now that they are, it stings even more because now they are back to making their own consumer

00:09:09   display and so all those feelings, they bubble up again. That's why I think iPad users are,

00:09:16   know are in the bargaining stage again you know because it's like come on just do it

00:09:21   you know come on can't you just do it and I can see that.

00:09:24   I want to understand what you're hoping for or looking for here is it just that like you

00:09:29   could plug it into a display and you would get a bigger view like or do you want like

00:09:33   free moving windows more apps on screen like that kind of stuff.

00:09:38   Well I would be fine with I would be fine with just having an extended home screen so

00:09:45   that you move beyond the basic mirroring that you have now.

00:09:51   And what you can do is you have your iPad that retains its home

00:09:54   screen, and you can place other apps and other windows

00:09:58   on the external monitor.

00:10:00   So it's like extended display mode on the Mac,

00:10:02   but on iPad OS.

00:10:04   Now, that would be the bare minimum.

00:10:07   Like, don't do mirroring.

00:10:08   Let me control-- let me place other windows

00:10:11   on the other display.

00:10:12   But there would be some additional niceties, I think,

00:10:15   that would be, well, nice to have.

00:10:17   Like, for example, can I put the iPad in clamshell mode

00:10:22   and use my existing Bluetooth keyboard

00:10:25   and Bluetooth trackpad and do what I would be able to do

00:10:29   with a Mac but on an external display?

00:10:31   Right now, if you plug in an iPad Pro

00:10:33   to an external monitor and you lock the iPad Pro,

00:10:36   you don't see anything anymore on the external monitor.

00:10:39   It just goes black.

00:10:40   - Yeah, that is annoying.

00:10:41   But also, I could make an argument in favor of maybe not freely resizable windows, maybe

00:10:49   not that, but more sizing options, more layout options.

00:10:54   And Apple likes to do this sort of thing, right?

00:10:57   They take an existing feature from Mac OS and they remix it, if you will.

00:11:02   They convert it to an iPadOS equivalent.

00:11:07   Look what they've done with the App Switcher,

00:11:10   with Split View, with Slide Over.

00:11:12   Like, they take something that you want

00:11:15   and they put a new spin on it.

00:11:17   So I would be fine with not the macOS system.

00:11:21   So you go to the corner of the window

00:11:23   and the cursor becomes the two arrows

00:11:26   and you can freely resize a window.

00:11:28   I could live without that on iPadOS,

00:11:31   but I think if they do add support for external monitors,

00:11:35   they also need to do multiple sizing options,

00:11:39   meaning you can just do external monitor support,

00:11:44   but Split View remains limited to two windows

00:11:47   at the same time.

00:11:48   You gotta support more layout modes

00:11:52   than just two apps at the same time.

00:11:54   So I compromise, is what I'm looking for, I guess.

00:11:57   - If they were to do the true multi-window support,

00:12:02   do you see those application windows

00:12:05   or whatever the document windows being fully like resizable

00:12:10   or do you think that we would get options?

00:12:12   - Well, something like windows comes to mind, right?

00:12:15   Where you have all those like the corners of the display

00:12:20   and the layouts like on windows when you hold down,

00:12:24   I don't remember the key,

00:12:25   but when you hold down, you get the pop-up

00:12:27   and some like Mac OS does this kind of,

00:12:30   but it's better on windows

00:12:32   and third-party window managers, they do this on macOS,

00:12:34   like a list of pre-assembled configurations,

00:12:37   like top right or bottom left,

00:12:40   or three quarters of the screen.

00:12:44   And maybe you could do four apps at the same time.

00:12:47   Maybe it would also depend on the size

00:12:50   of the external display that you're connecting to.

00:12:52   Meaning, if you are connecting

00:12:54   to a 15-inch external monitor,

00:12:56   like the portable OLED monitor that I have,

00:12:59   it's a portable gaming monitor.

00:13:01   It's 15.6 inches.

00:13:03   On that thing, I could see maybe three apps in Split View,

00:13:07   but not any more than that.

00:13:09   But if you are connecting to a 27-inch monitor,

00:13:12   well, in that case, you can do, I don't know, four or five.

00:13:16   Maybe you can do a grid of iPad windows in, quote unquote,

00:13:20   "Split View."

00:13:21   That is more of a grid view.

00:13:23   There you go, Apple.

00:13:24   Just call it grid view.

00:13:25   Do a grid view in iPadOS 16 for external monitor support.

00:13:29   That would be excellent.

00:13:30   So it's complicated, right?

00:13:32   Because you don't want to have the complexity of macOS,

00:13:35   and you likely don't want to deal with all that baggage

00:13:39   that comes from decades of macOS tradition.

00:13:43   And you're like, well, if we do this on iPadOS,

00:13:45   we don't want to do the freely resizable window

00:13:47   with the dragging indicator for a window.

00:13:50   And okay, I understand that.

00:13:52   But at the same time, you got to compromise somewhere.

00:13:55   And maybe the compromise would be,

00:13:56   what if we gave users more pre-built layouts?

00:14:01   So it's not freely resizable,

00:14:04   but you get more options than you do now.

00:14:07   That system would also scale

00:14:10   to a future bigger iPad Pro, right?

00:14:14   So that would be okay, I think.

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00:16:18   - So last week I asked connected listeners,

00:16:21   the passionate ones to tell me if they use SharePlay.

00:16:25   And I've been getting tweets from connected listeners

00:16:28   that use SharePlay.

00:16:29   Because I was genuinely intrigued

00:16:32   at what one may use SharePlay for.

00:16:35   And I could imagine some scenarios,

00:16:38   but I got a few that were additional.

00:16:40   Will you allow me to read from the listener base?

00:16:44   I'll go through this pretty quickly.

00:16:46   - Will allow it, yeah.

00:16:47   - Okay, so JD, who had a very special story

00:16:50   in Connected Pro today, and a friend,

00:16:52   used it to watch Disney+ shows together

00:16:55   when they're released.

00:16:56   Rod uses it to listen to music

00:16:58   with his mom, who lives far away.

00:17:00   Chris uses it for date night.

00:17:03   Chris, who we previously mentioned in the show today.

00:17:05   When his partner was traveling,

00:17:07   they watched a movie together.

00:17:09   Sigmund has used it for big screen bilingual group viewing of TV shows using

00:17:14   iOS devices to deliver audio tracks of choice. What does that mean?

00:17:18   I don't know, but that's what Sigmund told me. Big screen.

00:17:23   So here's what I'm thinking. Sigmund meant of like a bunch of people.

00:17:26   Oh yeah. Right. Yeah. Watching an Apple TV show at the same time.

00:17:30   I don't know what big screen, I didn't really know what that part meant,

00:17:33   but big screen. But like people could choose their own language, right?

00:17:38   - Yeah, of course you can.

00:17:39   - Yeah, yeah.

00:17:40   - And so everyone could watch it at the same time,

00:17:42   but they get their audio tracks that they want.

00:17:46   Ricky watches movies with their friend

00:17:47   who lives across the US from them.

00:17:50   Daniel uses it to watch TikTok videos

00:17:52   with their sister who just moved away.

00:17:54   Alex uses it to watch TV+ shows

00:17:56   with their partner who lives in another country.

00:17:58   Kent uses it as a way to hack around Fitness Plus

00:18:02   so they can do fitness workouts with their partner

00:18:05   in the same room and both get the activity for it.

00:18:10   Claire uses it to share music with their partner, who

00:18:13   lives far away, of course, and really appreciates

00:18:15   the shared audio controls, like play and pause,

00:18:18   so you can actually sync up properly.

00:18:22   They also use it with a group of friends

00:18:23   to do working together hangout type situations.

00:18:26   So like a bunch of people on a call,

00:18:28   someone might put a video on or whatever,

00:18:30   but they're all hanging out.

00:18:31   Eric uses it for Fitness Plus and working out

00:18:35   with their daughter while traveling.

00:18:36   And Cade watches TikToks with their partner

00:18:39   who lives far away and also have a date night movies.

00:18:41   So there's a lot of overlap in these,

00:18:43   but that was every single person in our audience

00:18:48   that wanted to contact me about how they use SharePlay.

00:18:52   I saved all of them and that is them.

00:18:55   Most of these I could have imagined

00:18:57   as like a thing that people would wanna do.

00:18:59   I just didn't know how much of a great experience

00:19:01   it would have been,

00:19:02   but everybody that contacted me seemed pretty positive about SharePlay as a

00:19:07   technology. So it's definitely making people happy, you know,

00:19:11   um, but I don't, I still, having read all of that,

00:19:15   I just don't think I would go through the aggravation of using it because

00:19:20   all of these things, right? So like, let's imagine we're watching a movie,

00:19:24   right? I don't need to be on a FaceTime call for the whole time.

00:19:27   Like I don't need that.

00:19:30   - That's the thing that gets me to like,

00:19:35   these use cases are great,

00:19:37   and I'm really happy that people send these over.

00:19:40   Maybe it's not just for us and that's fine.

00:19:43   And I think that was sort of my conclusion

00:19:45   from when I covered SharePlay.

00:19:47   It's not for me and it's fine.

00:19:49   I understand why other people will love it.

00:19:51   I just don't wanna watch a whole thing on FaceTime.

00:19:55   Again, I would have two years ago, I wouldn't now,

00:19:58   But hey, if it works great for you, excellent.

00:20:02   We'll see.

00:20:03   - I wouldn't have two years ago.

00:20:05   It wasn't, you know, this isn't even just a pandemic thing

00:20:07   to me.

00:20:08   It's like, this is just not a way that I could imagine

00:20:11   wanting to consume content.

00:20:13   But I like that there are people that are using it.

00:20:16   'Cause honestly, my assumption is I was gonna get

00:20:19   like one tweet throughout the whole week.

00:20:21   And I got a bunch.

00:20:22   And so I thought that was pretty great.

00:20:24   But it's still just not, I think Steven,

00:20:28   you obviously went on last week's episode.

00:20:30   Have you ever used SharePlay?

00:20:32   - I have not.

00:20:34   - No, okay.

00:20:35   - Maybe you and I can watch a movie together.

00:20:37   - I don't want to.

00:20:38   I don't want to do it.

00:20:41   I like the idea, right?

00:20:43   If you could do all of the stuff

00:20:46   without like the needing to be a,

00:20:49   like a persistent act of FaceTime call.

00:20:52   Like I like the idea of like shared experiences,

00:20:55   playing and pausing at the same time

00:20:56   and all that kind of stuff.

00:20:58   I would be just as happy with an iMessage thread that runs.

00:21:02   To me, the idea of me and Steven and Federico

00:21:06   were gonna watch a movie,

00:21:08   and for the whole time I'm watching a movie,

00:21:10   I can see what they're, I can see them?

00:21:13   Like that's odd to me.

00:21:15   That is weird.

00:21:17   I'm happy that people like it.

00:21:19   I mean, what it does feel like

00:21:21   from most of these situations is it does feel like

00:21:24   like an intimate experience, right?

00:21:27   that like, you know, like people tend to just use shareplay

00:21:29   with a loved one, like or their partner or whatever.

00:21:32   And like, that makes sense to me.

00:21:34   But even then, like if me and Adina watch a movie,

00:21:36   I don't look at her face for the entire movie.

00:21:38   You know what I mean?

00:21:39   It's just weird to have the face in front of me.

00:21:40   - That would be creepy.

00:21:42   That would be creepy, yeah.

00:21:44   You're watching a movie and just staring at her.

00:21:46   - Maybe I'm watching movies, Raul.

00:21:47   - Maybe you are.

00:21:49   - That is my shareplay.

00:21:50   - I wanted to touch on this really weird story

00:21:53   that was out at the end of last week,

00:21:55   where Porsche, their CEO, Oliver Bloom,

00:21:59   has this quote about discussing

00:22:02   exciting common projects with Apple.

00:22:05   What, what does this mean?

00:22:09   What are you talking about?

00:22:10   They are quote, "on the same wavelength,

00:22:13   and managers in Porsche traveled to the US

00:22:15   late last year to discuss joint projects with Apple."

00:22:18   Here's another quote.

00:22:19   "We already have Apple CarPlay.

00:22:20   We will expand on that."

00:22:22   - I mean, this feels pretty cut and dry to me.

00:22:24   - You think it's like the car keys stuff or whatever?

00:22:26   - It's car keys.

00:22:27   - Car keys.

00:22:29   - Like I think people see this,

00:22:31   a bunch of people in the Discord are telling me

00:22:32   FaceTime audio and SharePlay works together.

00:22:34   Fine, my point still remains.

00:22:36   I don't need no current active audio call,

00:22:38   let alone a video call.

00:22:39   - So now instead of seeing another person's face,

00:22:42   you can hear them breathing as you watch a movie.

00:22:44   - I don't need it.

00:22:45   I just don't need it.

00:22:46   Anyway, this is like one of those classic

00:22:48   a CEO got overexcited and said a thing,

00:22:51   and then everyone's like,

00:22:52   "Oh, this must mean Apple and Porsche

00:22:54   working on a car together which like I just don't it just doesn't marry up to

00:22:59   me when when Apple has an active project that not a lot of car companies are

00:23:06   involved in and could get more involved in which is the car keys thing that you

00:23:10   mentioned Steven you know like using your phone as your as your car key yeah

00:23:14   that's because you know if the expectation is that some point Apple

00:23:20   will want to make a car or have some kind of car project.

00:23:24   I don't imagine it's going to be with Porsche.

00:23:27   It's too high end, right?

00:23:30   Like, yes, Apple was a luxury brand or whatever,

00:23:32   but they will still want to make a car that people can buy

00:23:36   or whatever, you know, if they're ever going to do this.

00:23:40   I don't think Porsche is the right place for that.

00:23:42   Unless, I mean, I don't know Porsche's corporate structure.

00:23:44   I'll look at that in a minute.

00:23:45   Maybe they own one of the smaller car brands, but whatever.

00:23:48   And also like there are current reports suggesting

00:23:51   that the car team has been disbanded

00:23:53   currently again anyway.

00:23:55   - I think the car project just anytime anything gets close

00:23:59   to it, it makes news because it's such a weird story.

00:24:03   And that it has been seemingly from what we know

00:24:07   on and off again over the years.

00:24:10   And I think the most recent thing we heard

00:24:13   about its organization is that Kevin Lynch was in charge

00:24:15   of it and maybe he's doing another big reset or maybe it's really dead this time and that

00:24:21   was kind of his decision.

00:24:23   But it's just so unlike other things we hear about the company, I think that it makes the

00:24:30   news anytime anything is like remotely in its orbit.

00:24:35   Porsche is owned by Volkswagen so it makes even less sense.

00:24:39   Like Apple more likely works a Volkswagen than Porsche project to build a car.

00:24:44   Plus, Eddy Q's on the board of Ferrari.

00:24:46   - So, they're not gonna work with Ferrari

00:24:48   to make a car either, I can tell you that.

00:24:50   - No, no, but maybe he would be more willing

00:24:53   to work with a more normal car brand

00:24:55   than another supercar brand.

00:24:56   Anyways, I got big news for bootcamp users.

00:25:01   - Oh, wow, all those people.

00:25:03   - Yeah, Apple updates bootcamp

00:25:05   with studio display drivers for Windows users.

00:25:08   So, if you have an Apple studio display

00:25:12   and you use bootcamp, it apparently will work.

00:25:15   There's no center stage or spatial audio.

00:25:17   So bootcamp still exists.

00:25:20   For now. Okay, well, hold on.

00:25:21   What if, what if, what happens?

00:25:25   If you try to use a FaceTime video call

00:25:30   on Windows via bootcamp on the web,

00:25:36   because you can do FaceTime calls on the web.

00:25:38   Oh, you can on the web.

00:25:40   can on the web so in that case will center stage kick in? I don't think center

00:25:45   stage works on the web version of FaceTime. That's too bad. I put this in

00:25:49   here mainly because I want to talk about boot camp and how it's super dead it's

00:25:54   only on Intel Macs this 9 to 5 Mac article is worth noting that at least

00:25:58   for now boot camp remains available only for Macs with Intel processors. I don't

00:26:03   see Apple bringing this back even if Windows on ARM was a relevant thing

00:26:08   which it's really not at this point. There was also a story where someone was

00:26:15   working to get a studio display working on their PC and it required jumping

00:26:23   through all these hoops. I don't know who would buy this thing just expecting it

00:26:27   to work with their PC but apparently this person did and you have to like

00:26:34   jump through a Thunderbolt card and all sorts of stuff it's it's pretty wacky.

00:26:37   I could imagine someone wanting to be like, I have two computers, I want one monitor.

00:26:44   Will this one be able to suffice? You know what I mean? And so like, I think it would

00:26:49   be weird for somebody to buy this to use with their PC. But I could imagine someone who's

00:26:55   buying it to use with both their Mac and their PC, you know? So I guess it's good that it

00:27:00   it so okay it works well with boot camp right but does it work well with a PC then?

00:27:09   It's got to be a PC that supports Thunderbolt with not very many

00:27:18   this this Justin the guy here with this post end up using a PCIe Thunderbolt

00:27:24   expansion card and basically you run video from your GPU into this card and

00:27:30   then back out of this card via Thunderbolt. That worked. They do

00:27:35   recommend installing the boot camp drivers to make it work better and it is

00:27:40   still kind of broken. I would imagine that if boot camp wasn't a thing like

00:27:46   Apple wouldn't even bother with this at all but because boot camp is a

00:27:50   thing you can get these drivers and and run it but it's a bit of a mess and his

00:27:55   point is like it should be easier I don't but again I don't see why you

00:27:59   expected it to be maybe it should be but making it Thunderbolt based already

00:28:04   rules out a lot of the Windows world just kind of how it is no no it doesn't

00:28:09   make any sense to me like because you it can work you've just got to have

00:28:15   Thunderbolt on your motherboard, which is a thing.

00:28:19   So you can get PCs with Thunderbolt,

00:28:22   it's a thing you can do.

00:28:24   So you just don't buy a Thunderbolt display

00:28:28   if your PC doesn't have a Thunderbolt connection.

00:28:30   Like that doesn't seem like a complicated thing to me.

00:28:34   - It's just not as, you know,

00:28:36   if they'd use DisplayPort or something,

00:28:38   we wouldn't be having this conversation,

00:28:39   but that's not how Apple rolls.

00:28:41   - But why would they?

00:28:42   - Yeah, I mean, Thunderbolt is better

00:28:44   because it can do all of these things,

00:28:46   even if the trade-off is a lot of people don't have it.

00:28:50   - It would make no sense for me to Apple to be like,

00:28:52   we need to make sure that this display

00:28:54   is useful to the wider market.

00:28:57   Like, no, you can just go and buy like any display

00:28:59   from any company and use that one instead.

00:29:03   Like, I think this is one of those just like arguments

00:29:06   for the sake of having it,

00:29:08   as opposed to actually there being any logic to it.

00:29:10   - Yeah, I can get down with that.

00:29:13   Do you guys ever try bootcamp?

00:29:15   Yeah, I have some bootcamp memories from 10, 11 years ago,

00:29:21   20, like, 2010 or 2011.

00:29:23   Basically, I remember playing some--

00:29:26   don't ask me why--

00:29:28   but some Fallout 3 on my old MacBook Pro via bootcamp.

00:29:34   And I remember that it ran horribly.

00:29:37   And at the time, I couldn't figure out

00:29:39   how to connect a gaming controller to my Mac.

00:29:42   And so I think I was playing with the Magic Mouse and keyboard, probably.

00:29:46   Like a true gamer.

00:29:47   Or the Magic Track.

00:29:48   [laughter]

00:29:49   Like a true gamer.

00:29:50   Like a true PC gamer.

00:29:53   But that was horrible.

00:29:54   So that was my bootcamp memory.

00:29:56   And I guess another bootcamp memory is getting it set up for friends who got a Mac,

00:30:03   but also needed to have like a Windows fallback for things like programs that they were using at the university at the time

00:30:10   that didn't have a Mac OS equivalent.

00:30:12   And again, in 2010, 2011, web apps like we have today

00:30:17   just were not a thing.

00:30:18   So if school or your job will give you a Windows application

00:30:26   that you could only use on Windows,

00:30:28   and if you didn't have a Windows machine,

00:30:29   you would be out of luck.

00:30:31   And so I remember setting up a boot camp on my friends' Mac

00:30:34   books.

00:30:36   But that was that.

00:30:38   I used it for like two days with Fallout 3 and I remember that it was just terrible,

00:30:45   terrible performance.

00:30:47   I never did it. I know I looked into it and I think just the complicated nature of it

00:30:53   all just I didn't bother with it because I had no real need for it. It was more like

00:30:58   a curiosity than anything else. I'm sure you did, Steven. I'm just like, "Gee, even just

00:31:03   for the fun of it, right?"

00:31:04   Yeah, I mean I did it back like a long time ago when I was consulting full-time because I would need Windows

00:31:10   For some things and it was easier to carry one laptop than two

00:31:14   But I also did the trick where you could use I think Parallels and Fusion both have this

00:31:19   I forget which one I was using at the time

00:31:21   Where it could boot your boot camp partition as a virtual machine

00:31:26   So you could run it as a VM or fully boot it into boot camp

00:31:31   But like I forgot that that's that's cool. That's cool that it could do that. This was like Windows Vista

00:31:37   Windows I don't think it was Windows 7 yet. This was a long time ago

00:31:41   But and you know, I know people use it for games and stuff

00:31:44   but I would imagine the percentage of Mac users who ever used boot camp has to be pretty small or

00:31:50   Used it for more than a week because it is kind of annoying that it's fully separate and

00:31:57   Having yeah something in a VM where like you can still use your Mac app side by side like that's pretty nice

00:32:02   I think I stopped at the part where it's like you have to make a partition and I just don't think that I had enough

00:32:08   storage space to like

00:32:10   Because I know that I know I would have done all of this on my first iMac

00:32:13   Right because that was when I was most like tinkery because I was like learning it all and stuff

00:32:18   and I

00:32:21   Just know that like I would have got the base one, right?

00:32:24   So it would have had whatever the base storage was and the idea of like

00:32:28   Partitioning the hard drive for something. I wasn't sure if was actually gonna be a thing that I cared about for more than a week

00:32:34   I think that was where I ended up bailing out on it. Yeah, I remember in the early days there were people

00:32:40   Like trying to get windows running on those Intel Macs because boot camp wasn't there on day one

00:32:48   Like I remember reading these blog posts of people like figuring out how to run out those like white plastic

00:32:52   iMacs like you had you know doing all this wild firmware stuff and then

00:32:56   eventually Apple just had a solution for people. Did they say they would or did it

00:33:04   just appear one day? Like I don't remember when they announced the Intel

00:33:07   iMac did they say that there was boot camp like a thing that they announced? I

00:33:12   don't think it was but I could be wrong. Can I ask you a semi-unrelated question?

00:33:20   Have you been on Twitter these past few days?

00:33:23   A little bit.

00:33:25   That's not a question.

00:33:26   But I wanted to check, because like, have you seen, you mentioned VMs.

00:33:29   Have you seen what Steve Transmith has been tweeting about VMware and macOS?

00:33:34   Can you tell me what that is about?

00:33:37   Is he running them all on a Raspberry Pi or some other machine or something?

00:33:40   I think so.

00:33:42   I don't know.

00:33:44   So but what is that anyway?

00:33:45   So you can virtualize the latest version of macOS now?

00:33:49   I guess so.

00:33:50   - Interesting.

00:33:51   - Yeah, oh, no, he's running it on the Intel NUC.

00:33:54   - Okay, huh.

00:33:56   - I'll put a link in the show notes

00:34:01   and in Discord of his thread, so you can see that.

00:34:05   - Yeah, it's ESXC, what's the name?

00:34:09   ESXi, ES.

00:34:12   - Yes, that's it.

00:34:13   (laughs)

00:34:16   - That one, so that one.

00:34:17   So you can virtualize my,

00:34:18   Why would you virtualize Mac OS?

00:34:20   Well, I guess why would you virtualize Mac OS?

00:34:22   - 'Cause you wanna run Tiger.

00:34:23   - To try Mac OS things?

00:34:25   - 'Cause you wanna have a cool tweet thread.

00:34:28   - Steven, why don't you also do this

00:34:30   and like virtualize all the versions of Mac OS?

00:34:32   - I have a bunch of them set up.

00:34:35   What happens to them when I switch

00:34:37   to an Apple Silicon machine?

00:34:38   I'm not sure.

00:34:39   - I don't know, it kind of feels to me like

00:34:41   there is a project in here for you

00:34:44   to do like one specific thing

00:34:46   on all the versions of macOS that you have around,

00:34:50   whether they're running on, like, I don't know,

00:34:52   maybe this sounds silly, but like the same text document

00:34:56   as seen on all the possible versions of macOS.

00:35:00   - Well, you've done that.

00:35:00   That's the screenshot library, right?

00:35:02   - That's the sort of, yeah, but it would be cool

00:35:05   to see it in action on like an actual machine or a VM.

00:35:09   - Oh. - You know?

00:35:10   Not just a screenshot, but like the whole, yeah.

00:35:14   You know the screenshot library was all taken on real hardware.

00:35:18   None of that was virtualized.

00:35:19   Nice.

00:35:20   It took forever.

00:35:21   Such a hipster, man.

00:35:23   I like my bits running on authentic G4s.

00:35:27   I need a pixel accurate resolution.

00:35:30   Pixel perfect untouched screenshot

00:35:35   as the engineers intended.

00:35:38   Steven wanted to wait the amount of time

00:35:40   it would take to load everything,

00:35:41   not have it load more quickly

00:35:42   because it was on modern hardware.

00:35:44   Yeah.

00:35:44   Uh, my lion screenshots were originally not retina.

00:35:48   And I didn't have a retina machine that would run lion for a long time.

00:35:52   And then I did, and I remade those and re uploaded them because lion was the, the,

00:35:58   oh, the first iOS that shipped like with that 2012 Mac, but pro that first run

00:36:05   on machine back to the Mac, that was, that was the event before that.

00:36:09   but in that era.

00:36:11   - With Craig Federighi's hands shaking as he's-

00:36:14   - He was demoing line then yes.

00:36:16   The MacBook Pro I think had been announced before that,

00:36:18   but yeah, he was nervous.

00:36:19   They gave him good stuff now.

00:36:21   - No, no, no, no.

00:36:24   You can't just say something like that

00:36:26   and then we will move on from it.

00:36:27   - Hey, maybe it's like a ginger tea or something, you know?

00:36:31   - Yeah, he's just having a little tea.

00:36:33   What I imagine it is,

00:36:34   is he's had lots and lots of coaching on presentations

00:36:37   and he's way better than he used to be.

00:36:39   Yes, if you really if you really want to have like a good time go watch the

00:36:44   introduction of the X serve because a very young Tim Cook comes out to talk about enterprise customer support and

00:36:51   It is the driest thing you've ever seen. It's so bad

00:36:54   This is new to me - can I just search for YouTube?

00:36:59   X serve

00:37:02   introduction. It was like 2001 or 2002 or something. 2002.

00:37:07   Steve Jobs introduces Xserve 2002. Is this one of those things where like Tim

00:37:13   and Johnny and Steve were all sitting together on stalls and talking? Is it like one of those

00:37:17   kinds of presentations? It looks like one of those.

00:37:20   Yeah, it's Phil and Steve and Tim at the end. They're answering press questions.

00:37:26   Because I know Tim was there for the iPhone 4 thing as well, I think.

00:37:29   Yeah. If memory serves. Like another one of these

00:37:31   kinds of things used to show up in these. But if you scrub around like find a Tim Cook section

00:37:36   and it's pretty unexciting. Wow it's very young also. His hair's like really brown here I've just

00:37:44   never really considered him as having hair color. I feel like it's kind of gray on top maybe, maybe

00:37:49   it's just the lighting. He looks so young here wow! Yeah. Wow he's not wearing glasses yet,

00:37:56   He likes to wear a watch though, we know that much.

00:37:58   - He's a young man.

00:37:59   - Wow, that's amazing.

00:38:01   - Famous people age too, you know?

00:38:06   Like I don't think, yeah I think about these things.

00:38:09   Like famous people, like celebrities,

00:38:11   they also do normal things.

00:38:12   - And now Tim Cook's jacked.

00:38:14   He wasn't jacked on this video.

00:38:15   - No, I just unmuted a section and got to like

00:38:18   a little Tim Cook comedy routine part.

00:38:21   You call the software company, and what do they say?

00:38:24   Go to the hardware company.

00:38:25   the hardware company what do they say and it's like all right i'm done with tim cooke's comedy here

00:38:29   i'm fine thank you yeah to explain to me what customer support is like tim this is before

00:38:34   maybe this is like that's like he's that's his origin story for customer satisfaction

00:38:39   it's like none of these customers are satisfied and i'm not happy about it that's right change

00:38:42   it today maybe he'll bring back the x-serve i thought federico was going to ask stephen

00:38:46   a different question and i actually do want both of your opinions on this okay it seems to be that

00:38:52   everyone's really upset that you can't remove the power cable from the back of

00:38:59   the studio display. An interesting thing to be upset about for sure. Everyone's

00:39:04   really upset about this. I'm upset about it. Okay tell me why. I want to know why

00:39:09   you're upset about it because I don't know why I... I know okay I know why

00:39:14   realistically people would say that you could be upset about it. Yeah. But me Myke

00:39:19   Hurley has never run into a situation where this has been a problem for me so

00:39:22   So I would like you to explain what I haven't either like I've never damaged a power cable on anything

00:39:27   I don't think but in a 1600 our display

00:39:31   the power cables should be

00:39:34   Removable if it's damaged or if you need a longer one or a shorter one if it's like a if it's a standard power connector

00:39:40   So there's like the repairability angle, but it isn't a standard power connector, right? Like that's the point

00:39:45   Well, I don't know because it's stuck in there point. That's a good point though. Like if people have removed it

00:39:51   You can yank it out. I saw a gif of Linus doing it, but yeah

00:39:55   It's also from the company that made a magnetic charger for the iMac.

00:40:00   Yeah, that's weird. It's weird that they didn't bring it over to here

00:40:02   I guess it's a cost thing

00:40:04   But like that is the part where I'm like

00:40:05   I don't know why they spent all that time and effort on the iMac one if

00:40:10   They're only gonna use it on this one machine. I don't know but at the same time

00:40:14   It's like this is just one of those things where I think it's being blown out of proportion a little bit

00:40:20   For like the actual care that people have over it, you know

00:40:23   I have no doubt that I'm gonna now hear from everyone who cares about this, but like I just say like

00:40:29   If I do something and break the kid like the cables broken

00:40:33   I'll just take it to the Apple Store and pay for a new one

00:40:35   I don't know

00:40:36   You know what?

00:40:36   I mean like I but all I know is I've never had to do this ever in my whole life and I'm sure the power cable

00:40:42   will be under the

00:40:44   You know any accidental damage clause or Apple care or whatever?

00:40:47   And I'm sure if it's not they'll have just a because it is removable

00:40:50   They have a special tool to do it like go look at the 9 to 5 Mac link in the show notes

00:40:54   It's hilarious the tool that they're using to like pull the cable out. What is that?

00:40:59   It just it just gives more more force so you can pop it right out

00:41:03   It's just it's just like something that makes it needlessly complicated. Like if we're just a standard power cable

00:41:10   It's just simpler for everybody. I agree with Apple doesn't have to go around fixing them. It's picking off cables and stuff

00:41:17   What happened to the self-repair store that they announced months ago?

00:41:23   I think I asked someone about this recently, like, similar to you. I don't remember where it was.

00:41:28   I think we talked about an upgrade when I was on, maybe?

00:41:31   Maybe, yeah. And basically, the thought that I ended up coming to is, they announced it, so they did it before the right to repair legislation.

00:41:40   And it's like, it will happen. It was supposed to be early 2020.

00:41:44   We didn't say when.

00:41:46   I think they said early next year. I think early has passed at this point, but nothing has happened.

00:41:53   Yeah, not yet.

00:41:54   Because I still got that screen I want to replace, you know?

00:41:57   Well, how early is... early, you know? Isn't that the title of the of us mates album also?

00:42:07   No, that's how soon is now.

00:42:08   I saw your phone screen when you hear Myke, it's real bad.

00:42:11   It's terrible. Not cracked though, you know?

00:42:15   It is cracked. It is 100% cracked.

00:42:16   No, Apple says not cracked, so no.

00:42:19   So you've seen it in person, Steven.

00:42:21   Yeah, I ran my finger over it and was sad.

00:42:25   Did you cut yourself in doing that?

00:42:26   Is it that bad?

00:42:28   Almost.

00:42:29   It's not that bad.

00:42:29   You can feel the deep scratches, not cracks.

00:42:33   You can feel the glass?

00:42:35   Oh, God, okay.

00:42:37   No, it's fine though.

00:42:38   Definitely not accidental damage replacement worthy.

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00:43:44   registrars have really messy dashboards, they trick you into things, hover is just laid out cleanly,

00:43:49   easy to use, easy to understand. Buy your domain and start using it today. Go to hover.com/connected

00:43:55   and get a 10% discount on all new purchases. That URL, hover.com/connected. Make a name for yourself

00:44:03   with hover our thanks to hover for their support of the show and relay FM

00:44:07   Mac studio time

00:44:10   You go in no, no going yet. Not yet. Not yet, but I'm excited about it soon soon, but not yet

00:44:19   I'm sure people have seen MK Beach's video. We'll have a link in the notes

00:44:24   his takeaways the m1 ultra is

00:44:28   Not as fast as his 28 core Intel Mac Pro and absolutely everything and some things it totally is or even faster

00:44:34   But also that machine is like tens of thousands of dollars and is the highest in Intel Mac ever made

00:44:40   So against my 12 core Mac Pro it's going the m1 max is gonna beat it and almost everything

00:44:45   I think I'm worried about is the fan and so

00:44:49   In his video it's mentioned and Jason talked about it someone upgrade and I think in his review

00:44:56   that you can hear the

00:44:59   Mac studio all the time and I had kind of assumed that

00:45:04   Because I was getting the m1 max and not the ultra like one reason I did that was

00:45:09   It should be silent because the chassis built for both and yes, the heatsink is different between the two

00:45:14   but I expected not to hear any fan noise and

00:45:18   It seems like that may not be the case now

00:45:22   Now Jason says it's not a big deal and it may not be, but I'm just curious about how

00:45:26   that's going to play out for me.

00:45:28   I don't understand why there is a persistent fanspin, it doesn't make sense to me, in the

00:45:36   Macs version.

00:45:39   Because my MacBook Pro doesn't do it.

00:45:43   Yeah that's the thing that's really the most interesting, this is the same chip and a laptop

00:45:49   will be silent until it's really under load. And I expect like any machine I've had, except

00:45:54   for my Mac Pro, if I put it under load, I'm going to hear it right. I could hear the iMac

00:45:59   Pro on occasion. I've never heard the Mac Pro ever. And now it's basically like level

00:46:05   with my head where it sits at the end of my desk. But at idle, I really expected this

00:46:11   thing to be completely silent. And maybe there'll be maybe it's not a big deal. I don't expect

00:46:18   to be loud enough that like my microphone would hear it.

00:46:20   But if I'm in here and it's quiet and I hear it,

00:46:24   that may be annoying.

00:46:25   'Cause this thing is going to sit on the desk,

00:46:27   it'll be behind my display.

00:46:29   Pretty close, right?

00:46:30   And in a machine that's clearly the expectation,

00:46:34   like in all of Apple's press stuff in the Apple Store,

00:46:37   so I went to go see this in the Apple Store the other day,

00:46:39   it's just right there, like next,

00:46:41   like right under the display,

00:46:42   kind of above where your mouse or track pad would be.

00:46:45   And to have something that close to you

00:46:47   and it make noise all the time,

00:46:49   like that could be frustrating

00:46:50   if you're sensitive to that sort of thing.

00:46:53   I don't know.

00:46:54   - So a couple of questions.

00:46:55   One is from Zack.

00:46:56   Does your Mac Pro not make noise all the time?

00:46:59   - I cannot, the fans always spin.

00:47:01   They are inaudible at their resting rate.

00:47:04   - So I guess they're big, right?

00:47:05   They're so big that I guess they can spin

00:47:08   and they can spin more quietly and move the air through.

00:47:10   - They're not spinning real fast.

00:47:11   - Okay, my second question.

00:47:14   You don't have to have it that close though, right?

00:47:16   Like you could put that where you have your current Mac Pro

00:47:19   if you just got a cable long enough, right?

00:47:21   - Yeah, and I have a long Thunderbolt cable

00:47:23   that the studio display or the Mac studio

00:47:27   and the pro display will be plugged into each other.

00:47:29   So I could have it further away if it's an issue.

00:47:32   We'll see, as I get into it,

00:47:34   I'm gonna talk about kind of my setup situation in a minute.

00:47:37   I have a lot of other stuff to contend with on my desk now

00:47:40   and it's not all quite dialed in where it's gonna go.

00:47:44   But I just found it interesting

00:47:45   that Apple clearly designed this for better or for worse

00:47:48   to be out in the open on the desk.

00:47:50   And like in the Apple store, could not hear it,

00:47:53   but you know, people are milling about,

00:47:54   there's like background music and stuff.

00:47:56   So I'd imagine that if you're in an office environment

00:48:00   or like a studio with other people, it may be different.

00:48:03   But if you're like me and you work in a building

00:48:05   by yourself all day, every day,

00:48:07   maybe it'd be a little noticeable.

00:48:09   I'm definitely gonna follow up on that.

00:48:11   - Maybe it's like you can hear it,

00:48:13   but you don't notice it if that makes sense, right?

00:48:15   'Cause there's something wrong.

00:48:16   It's just intriguing to me, right?

00:48:18   'Cause obviously they built it this way

00:48:19   because of the ultra and it needing, I guess,

00:48:24   more constant airflow 'cause of the amount of power

00:48:28   it's drawing and stuff.

00:48:29   But it's just intriguing to me that like,

00:48:32   it works exactly the same with a chip that doesn't need it.

00:48:36   - Yeah, like I would expect the firmware on the two

00:48:39   to act differently with the fans.

00:48:41   - And like, and the reason I say this, right?

00:48:42   because I set it on upgrade 2 right it's just just a reiteration I have a MacBook Pro and it has an

00:48:47   M1 Max in it and I don't hear the fan like there is no consistent fan noise from my laptop like all

00:48:56   the time this is not a thing so this chip doesn't need it same as like there are some M1 Max that

00:49:02   have fans in them and some that don't but they still have the same amount of performance but

00:49:06   for whatever reason I guess it's like so they can run at high speed longer I guess.

00:49:11   There are fans in my MacBook Pro they'll come on when it's needed.

00:49:15   Just the idea of there being like if you just open Safari and got two tabs open the fans go

00:49:22   and it's like I don't know if you need to do this. It's an intriguing thing where it's like

00:49:26   clearly the system works that way because they have put so many fans in it to deal with the

00:49:32   really heavy chip and again it's like they're building these machines now the

00:49:37   chassis for like they're gonna be around for like five years yeah ten years right

00:49:41   so like they know their roadmap over the next few years and they know we need

00:49:45   headroom right this is where they've gotten themselves stuck in the past

00:49:49   right like headroom is something they need yeah there's no thermal corner

00:49:52   here hopefully so they know that like they're gonna have a chip in a few years

00:49:55   it's three times more powerful for let's just say just pick a number out of the

00:49:59   than the current M1 Ultra. So you've got to have the headroom on it. But it is still intriguing

00:50:05   to me of like, why does the fan need to move constantly? I just, it's an intriguing decision.

00:50:14   It wouldn't turn me off it by the way. Like if I had ordered one of these things, because

00:50:18   I don't care about this kind of stuff. Like, there are always noises like in my studio,

00:50:24   right? Like I can always hear a noise of some description. Like I have a fridge in the studio,

00:50:28   a small one but that always makes a sound right because it's a fridge it doesn't bother

00:50:32   me at all like I'm not one of these types of nerds are you one of these types of nerds

00:50:38   Stephen like this is no criticism to you but like are you a like can't deal with a fan

00:50:43   kind of nerd?

00:50:44   I don't know I mean like like right now the heat is in my running in my office it's extremely

00:50:52   quiet I can hear it if I think about it right so we'll see I'm not worried about it I can't

00:50:58   I'm just curious to how it plays out.

00:51:01   Anyways, there was also a lot of ink spilled

00:51:05   about the SSD modules.

00:51:08   - This has been like four separate news cycles.

00:51:12   - I know.

00:51:13   So there was a YouTube video

00:51:16   and then a bunch of articles about it.

00:51:18   Someone took a part of Mac Studio and said,

00:51:20   "Oh my gosh, there's additional slots in here

00:51:23   "for SSD modules.

00:51:24   "The way the storage works on this machine

00:51:26   is like it works in my Mac Pro, where there are slots and you have the modules that clip

00:51:32   into them. Now all of the controllers and all like the brains are on package like on

00:51:40   the system on the chip or in my Mac Pro in the T2, where the SSDs are really just storage

00:51:45   pools, right? The modules aren't. They're not like an SSD you may buy from Samsung and

00:51:51   like put in a case, right?

00:51:54   It's just a component.

00:51:55   Apple says there's nothing user upgradeable

00:51:58   inside the Mac Studio.

00:51:59   If you watch this video, you have to take the thing

00:52:01   pretty far apart before you even get to these.

00:52:04   Some people thought, oh, hey, this is great.

00:52:06   I could buy one and add additional storage later.

00:52:09   Maybe someone like Mac sales or other companies

00:52:12   would make modules that would fit into this.

00:52:15   Or maybe it'll be like what Apple does

00:52:18   with the iMac Pro RAM upgrade programs.

00:52:21   Some people have probably forgotten about this.

00:52:22   I had until I was putting this together

00:52:24   where if you have an iMac Pro

00:52:26   and you want more RAM, put it in it, that RAM is slotted.

00:52:28   You can just put more RAM in it,

00:52:30   but it's inside the machine

00:52:32   and you can take it to Apple and they'll charge you

00:52:36   and they take it apart and put more memory in it for you.

00:52:39   So lots of questions about what this means,

00:52:41   what these slots could do, why they are there.

00:52:45   And this ended up breaking in the news

00:52:49   like a few days later.

00:52:49   I was on vacation, so I wrote a little bit about it,

00:52:52   but over the weekend, I was talking to some people,

00:52:55   we all kind of came to the agreement that our guess is

00:52:58   that all Mac CDOs have the number of slots required

00:53:02   for the eight terabyte model,

00:53:05   and maybe the four terabyte model as well,

00:53:07   where they need additional slots

00:53:09   because the form factor of module

00:53:12   that Apple is using is small.

00:53:15   There was a YouTube video where someone tried taking

00:53:18   a Mac Pro SSD module and putting in the Mac Studio

00:53:22   and it won't fit.

00:53:23   It's like physically a smaller component.

00:53:26   And so they need these additional slots populated

00:53:31   for the higher end SKUs

00:53:33   and they don't wanna build two versions of the logic board.

00:53:35   So some Mac studios just come with these empty slots, right?

00:53:40   It makes sense, right?

00:53:43   It's an efficient way of doing this

00:53:45   from Apple's perspective

00:53:46   of building a bunch of these things.

00:53:48   But then someone took apart two Mac studios

00:53:50   and put the modules from both of them into one machine.

00:53:55   - I'll show you.

00:53:56   - You won't let me upgrade.

00:54:00   I'll just buy a second computer

00:54:02   and steal the storage out of it.

00:54:03   What an efficient and economical way of doing this.

00:54:08   That machine refused to boot, freaked out.

00:54:10   Because just like on the T2, like in my Mac Pro,

00:54:15   that I'm looking at now, lovingly,

00:54:17   or like the last 27-inch iMac and some other machines,

00:54:22   the SSDs are tied to the system

00:54:28   and they're encrypted by that T2 chip.

00:54:31   And in the Apple Silicon world,

00:54:33   a very similar process takes place

00:54:35   where the storage seems to be married to the logic board.

00:54:42   In fact, when I upgraded the SSDs in my Mac Pro,

00:54:47   I think I had it with, I forget what I ordered it with,

00:54:49   maybe two terabytes of internal storage

00:54:51   and upgraded to eight with Apple's parts.

00:54:54   I had to put the machine in DFU mode

00:54:57   and hook it up to another Mac and use Apple Configurator

00:55:00   to like re-blast the drives.

00:55:02   And let me tell y'all,

00:55:04   is maybe the scariest thing I've ever done with a computer.

00:55:07   This is like, if this doesn't work,

00:55:09   or if the power goes out or anything goes wrong,

00:55:12   My Mac Pro is in trouble and is gonna need to repair.

00:55:15   Now, it's not saying Apple couldn't change this

00:55:17   in the future, maybe in the future they'll have a program,

00:55:19   maybe in the future Apple can figure it'd be updated

00:55:21   to support this, but sort of the excitement people had

00:55:25   of oh my gosh, there's slots in here,

00:55:26   I can just add more storage, that's just not the way this is.

00:55:30   And in the Apple Silicon era, it's really unclear

00:55:34   what this will look like because so far,

00:55:36   we've not had any Apple Silicon machines

00:55:38   where this is possible, right?

00:55:39   on all the M1 machines and the MacBook Pros,

00:55:44   the storage isn't slotted like this, right?

00:55:47   This is the first time we've seen this

00:55:49   and so it's a little bit of an unknown,

00:55:52   but definitely like very interesting to follow this

00:55:54   as people were kind of working on it

00:55:55   and discovering things over the week.

00:55:58   - I think it's pretty fair to say

00:56:00   that this is still not a device

00:56:02   that Apple I believe will ever intend to be user serviceable.

00:56:06   Like maybe you'll be able to take it

00:56:08   to an Apple store one day

00:56:09   and get more SSD put in it?

00:56:12   - I think at best that's what this is.

00:56:14   I don't think it would ever be something

00:56:17   that you would like crack open

00:56:18   and put drives in that you bought yourself.

00:56:21   - It's like in the same way that it has been said

00:56:24   that you can take a studio display

00:56:26   and have them change your mounting mechanism.

00:56:27   Like, you know, it's like, you can't do it,

00:56:30   but Apple can do it.

00:56:32   But this is all leading up to the inevitable of,

00:56:35   well, what about the Mac?

00:56:36   like will the Mac Pro be able to do the things the current one can do?

00:56:41   Like this is the question, right?

00:56:43   Because it's, as you say, not an easy process, what you did,

00:56:47   but you are allowed to do it.

00:56:49   Right.

00:56:49   You, Steven Hackett, can go to Apple's website and buy some parts

00:56:53   and open it up and check a bunch of boxes and say, yes, yes, yes,

00:56:58   I definitely know what I'm doing and Apple's not going to take any--

00:57:02   like I'm breaking my warranty or whatever it is you're saying.

00:57:06   you know, by doing this, but you are allowed to do it.

00:57:09   And that's going to be the question, right?

00:57:11   Will that still be the case with 2022 Mac Pro

00:57:14   or whatever it's going to be?

00:57:16   - Yeah, who knows, right?

00:57:17   We just don't know.

00:57:19   Also the M1 Ultra chip is humongous.

00:57:21   If you watch this video, the thing is huge.

00:57:25   - It looks like a Threadripper.

00:57:26   - It does.

00:57:27   That's exactly what I thought.

00:57:28   It looks like a Threadripper.

00:57:29   Federico, are you excited about the possibility

00:57:32   of Mac Studio SSD upgrades?

00:57:34   - Well, I was thinking, I was thinking about this

00:57:36   just a few minutes ago.

00:57:37   And no, I'm not.

00:57:40   - I'm happy to report, don't care.

00:57:42   - Yeah, yeah, I mean,

00:57:45   I, look, seriously, I understand why,

00:57:52   especially because they presented it as a modular computer,

00:57:57   a modular machine, but that's not sort of the modularity

00:58:00   that they had in mind.

00:58:02   - Well, so here's the thing,

00:58:03   I put this on a Slack the other day.

00:58:05   Modular equals outside, expandable equals inside.

00:58:10   So I think when Apple says modular,

00:58:12   they mean you can hook any display up to it.

00:58:15   - So you know, when you say that, I know what you're saying.

00:58:18   To me, those words should be reversed though,

00:58:20   to make more sense, like to way that my brain works.

00:58:24   - I don't actually disagree with you all.

00:58:26   I just, I'm saying that's what a how Apple views it,

00:58:27   I think.

00:58:28   - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:58:29   I know you mean like that's,

00:58:30   you're kind of reading what you think they're saying.

00:58:33   - Yeah.

00:58:34   But my brain says it should be the other way around,

00:58:37   but I hope that Apple at least do consider

00:58:39   those two things to be different,

00:58:41   and then that's how they explain it.

00:58:43   - So yeah, I understand why people are, you know,

00:58:46   annoyed that this is not possible.

00:58:49   I still think, I don't know, maybe eventually,

00:58:52   and if it's controlled in software,

00:58:54   and if there's enough demand for it,

00:58:57   I wouldn't be shocking if they open it up eventually.

00:59:00   But also, I understand what Apple is saying,

00:59:03   Like, yeah, you get this box, very powerful.

00:59:05   Then if you wanna expand it,

00:59:08   you buy more external SSDs or whatever,

00:59:11   and you use Thunderbolt and it's fast enough.

00:59:13   So I get it, but maybe it's time to move on

00:59:17   from the idea of expandable anything.

00:59:20   So you pick the RAM, you pick the storage, that's it.

00:59:24   And enjoy this powerful and pricey computer.

00:59:27   - So I wanna walk y'all through

00:59:29   what my setup situation is gonna be.

00:59:33   - Oh, okay.

00:59:34   - So currently have a Mac Pro 12 core

00:59:39   with eight terabyte boot drive.

00:59:43   I have, you know what?

00:59:46   You've already made fun of me for the amount of storage

00:59:48   I have, I will not hear it again.

00:59:50   - I wasn't gonna say anything, I just think it laughing.

00:59:53   - I mean, you know.

00:59:55   - I didn't say anything.

00:59:55   - You're preserving human knowledge over there, so yeah.

01:00:00   - That's right.

01:00:01   It has a internal drive that I clone to every night.

01:00:06   And then also has--

01:00:09   How big is that one?

01:00:10   Eight terabytes.

01:00:11   So it's just the, it's gotta be the same, right?

01:00:16   Gotta be able to boot from it.

01:00:17   And then I have 16 terabytes for Time Machine.

01:00:22   (laughing)

01:00:24   How many?

01:00:25   Why do you need 16 terabytes of Time Machine?

01:00:28   Did you say 16?

01:00:30   16.

01:00:31   - 16. - I said 60.

01:00:33   - 16. - You know?

01:00:34   - I mean, you're not a 16. - What do you need 16 terabytes

01:00:36   of time machine for, seriously?

01:00:38   - Well, because it's double. - It's double.

01:00:39   - It's double. - Oh, really?

01:00:40   Is that the thing? - And it's, well, really,

01:00:42   it's because the way it's put together,

01:00:43   those are two eight terabyte drives that are striped.

01:00:47   - Myke, that's what RAID 0 and RAID 1 mean, right?

01:00:52   It's the all-- - Yeah.

01:00:54   - Is that RAID 0? - I don't know.

01:00:56   It's whatever, wherever it adds the capacity.

01:01:01   - Is it RAID 1?

01:01:01   - I always get it wrong.

01:01:02   - I don't know.

01:01:03   - And those drives are on a card, an internal PCI card.

01:01:07   - On a card or on a cart?

01:01:09   - I mean, it's on a card on a cart, right?

01:01:13   - Yeah.

01:01:14   If you think about it, everything is ultimately movable.

01:01:18   We're on the spinning planet.

01:01:21   Do you ever think about the permanence of objects?

01:01:26   - Honestly, all the time.

01:01:28   Like if the planet is spinning, is anything standing still?

01:01:31   Like that is honestly like a genuinely interesting

01:01:36   philosophical problem to have.

01:01:38   Like if our reality is always in motion,

01:01:41   is anything ever standing still?

01:01:43   Hence why we can go back to, yeah,

01:01:45   well, it's a long conversation.

01:01:47   - I just had this the other day, so I was on vacation.

01:01:49   I was out of town for a week and I came back into my office

01:01:52   and there was a water bottle that I had left open.

01:01:55   Like I left the top off of it.

01:01:57   - Mm-hmm.

01:01:58   - Like on the little coaster on my desk,

01:02:00   I was like, man, that top stayed off a whole week.

01:02:03   It was very strange, like a very like-

01:02:05   - Why?

01:02:06   Why is that weird?

01:02:07   - I don't know, it's just like, it struck me.

01:02:08   It's like, yeah, this has been in this same place

01:02:10   while I've been gone and now I'm back

01:02:12   and it's untouched, it hasn't moved.

01:02:14   - But has it really been in the same place?

01:02:17   That's the question.

01:02:18   - Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

01:02:19   I have a question for you.

01:02:20   There's a lot of things in your studio.

01:02:24   Why is that the only one that made you feel that way?

01:02:27   I think because I've realized I left the cap off the bottle

01:02:30   and it just like, it already had my attention.

01:02:32   And then, you know, it was like one of those

01:02:34   freshman dorm room when you're stoned kind of moments.

01:02:37   Like, whoa, do things move, man?

01:02:40   I thought you were gonna say something

01:02:41   like the water had evaporated

01:02:43   and that was what made you feel weird, you know?

01:02:45   Okay.

01:02:46   It's not that hot here yet.

01:02:47   Anyways, keeping.

01:02:50   But also like more broadly speaking,

01:02:52   like you could even postulate to that.

01:02:55   Like, if there's no control-- and I'm going to get deep here,

01:02:58   Steven, but I think you will appreciate it.

01:03:00   My point--

01:03:01   Honestly, at the point you said postulate, I'm like,

01:03:03   I'm done.

01:03:03   I'm going to wait until they're finished.

01:03:05   OK, but so like, if there's no control group

01:03:09   to double check on our reality, what is reality even?

01:03:13   Like, if reality is all that you see,

01:03:15   but there's no other entity that evaluates the thing you see,

01:03:18   reality might as well just be something

01:03:20   that you've completely made up.

01:03:21   I mean, how do I even know y'all are real,

01:03:23   and I'm just not hallucinating the whole episode.

01:03:25   - How do you know that the color green that I see

01:03:30   is the same color green that you see, am I right?

01:03:33   You know? - Precisely.

01:03:34   Yeah, that's the problem.

01:03:36   I'm surprised, Myke, you do not appreciate this.

01:03:38   - Anyway.

01:03:39   - I just...

01:03:41   - Have you been traumatized by these questions before?

01:03:44   - No, I was bullied by my family over questions like this.

01:03:47   So, no, it's not, it's no problem.

01:03:50   I did, I did a like a philosophy.

01:03:55   Would this be philosophy?

01:03:58   No.

01:03:59   Yeah?

01:03:59   - I mean, if you say it is.

01:04:00   - Well, okay.

01:04:01   I did like a philosophy, like,

01:04:04   I guess we'll call it a minor kind of thing.

01:04:08   And I went home and asked the questions to my family

01:04:11   of the thing, or told them like, what they are,

01:04:13   like, what did you do?

01:04:14   And I told them the thing and they also made fun of me.

01:04:16   - Oh, that's stupid.

01:04:17   I'm sorry.

01:04:18   That sucks.

01:04:19   - It just is what it is.

01:04:20   like it doesn't bother me we make fun of each other the three of us all the time

01:04:23   it's just the way it goes but like I think that kind of beat it out of me of

01:04:27   like stop sharing these sorts of people no no no you can't share with us you

01:04:32   can I know but also I think sometimes I don't want to think about them all

01:04:38   speaking of permanence of objects the produce black star is gonna stay

01:04:41   obviously it's amazing and I love it if there's one thing that's not it's um

01:04:46   It's that that thing is not moving. Okay. No, I'm using this display for another 20 years

01:04:52   You know ten thousand dollars will make something permanent

01:04:56   Cost no, that's how much the Mac Pro costs, right? I don't want to talk about that

01:05:01   I mean yours is come on. I mean you got 164 terabytes of storage in it. It's like

01:05:05   You know way over it now if I had an LG 5k still I'd be buying a studio display

01:05:12   or maybe two of them, but Pro Display is awesome.

01:05:16   - You have a better monitor, right?

01:05:17   - Yeah, yeah, I'm not even remotely tempted by it.

01:05:20   - You would be downgraded.

01:05:22   - I have a Touch ID keyboard now,

01:05:24   so I can use Touch ID with my fancy Apple Silicon Mac.

01:05:26   'Cause my keyboard has an eject key where that should be,

01:05:30   which is hilarious.

01:05:32   - That's when all the SSDs pop out the side.

01:05:35   - Yeah, oh no.

01:05:38   So I ordered the eight terabyte model

01:05:40   for my internal drive, so that'll stay the same size.

01:05:44   And then I have to move the other storage external,

01:05:48   which I am not thrilled about, but it is what it is.

01:05:51   So I have a couple of drive enclosures,

01:05:56   well, they're here now,

01:05:58   one for the eight terabyte, the nightly clone.

01:06:02   And it's just a, it's from OWC, it's a USB 3.2,

01:06:08   So the 10 gigabit per second, bus powered,

01:06:11   so no power adapter to contend with.

01:06:13   Just little metal fanless enclosure to put that SSD in.

01:06:17   I've used these in the past and had good luck with them.

01:06:20   So ordered one for this.

01:06:23   And then for the time machine one

01:06:26   was a little more complicated 'cause that's two drives

01:06:29   and they need to be put together into one larger volume.

01:06:34   And it turns out OWC sells basically

01:06:36   a two drive version of this.

01:06:39   So it uses USB 3.1 Gen 2.

01:06:42   So again, it's 10 gigabits per second,

01:06:45   bus powered, it's aluminum.

01:06:48   These designs of these cases don't match,

01:06:50   which really irks me.

01:06:52   I don't know why they've changed their design language,

01:06:54   but they have.

01:06:55   And I could put these two drives in there side by side.

01:06:59   I looked at a couple of different options.

01:07:00   - Wait. - Yeah.

01:07:01   - Why can't you just put all,

01:07:03   - 'Cause one is eight and one is two times eight.

01:07:05   - Yeah.

01:07:06   - Okay, I was gonna say why don't you just buy two

01:07:07   of the same thing, but it's 'cause one has two of them.

01:07:09   - Yeah, 'cause you can't buy a 16 terabyte SSD.

01:07:13   - I have a way for you to get around this.

01:07:15   Buy another eight terabyte SSD.

01:07:18   Then you've got 16 terabyte,

01:07:21   you got a whole other eight terabytes

01:07:22   to do whatever you want with,

01:07:23   and then just get two of those things.

01:07:24   - That's true.

01:07:25   - Stack 'em on top of each other.

01:07:26   - Those eight terabyte SSDs are expensive.

01:07:28   - Imagine what you could do with another eight terabytes.

01:07:31   - It's true, I suppose.

01:07:33   I looked at a couple of different things

01:07:34   for the time machine and like, yes,

01:07:35   I could just get like a spinning USB hard drive,

01:07:37   but already have these SSDs.

01:07:39   I want to use them, they're silent.

01:07:40   - Not that that matters anymore with your loud computer.

01:07:43   - Hush.

01:07:43   (laughing)

01:07:45   OWC does, and other companies,

01:07:47   I'm just, I've looked at their website.

01:07:49   They sell something called the MiniStack STX.

01:07:53   And it is the size of Mac mini footprint,

01:07:59   which is the same size as the Mac Studio footprint.

01:08:01   So it goes underneath the machine or on top,

01:08:04   and it has the ability to go up to 18 terabytes of storage.

01:08:09   You have a NVMe M.2 SSD,

01:08:14   and then a SATA slot,

01:08:16   or a place to put a SATA drive in,

01:08:19   and you can ray them together.

01:08:21   The issue with this is a couple of things come up.

01:08:25   One, I already have the drives,

01:08:26   so just finding an enclosure for them

01:08:28   makes more sense to me than buying more drives.

01:08:31   It also has an external power supply,

01:08:34   which I really don't wanna deal with.

01:08:36   I like that this can be bus power so it's cleaner

01:08:39   and I've got less things to plug in.

01:08:42   But this thing has a fan in it.

01:08:44   I guess because of the NVMe drive,

01:08:46   it needs some air moving over it, didn't want that.

01:08:50   So I've gone with the fanless cases across the board.

01:08:56   And this stuff will be like stacked up, I guess,

01:08:59   maybe under the Mac studio behind the screen.

01:09:02   We don't really see it,

01:09:03   but it makes me miss internal storage already.

01:09:05   'Cause it's really nice to have all of that

01:09:07   inside the computer.

01:09:08   - How is it all gonna be connected?

01:09:10   Is it all Thunderbolt?

01:09:12   - These two enclosures are USB,

01:09:14   the 10 gigabit per second USB.

01:09:17   - USB-C.

01:09:18   - Yeah, but these are backup drives.

01:09:19   So the nightly one, I don't care how long it takes

01:09:22   'cause it runs at night and the time machine one,

01:09:24   it's still gonna be way faster than a time machine drive

01:09:28   that's like a USB spinning hard drive.

01:09:32   And so these will be plenty fast for what I need them for

01:09:37   because it's not my primary.

01:09:38   - You could put those somewhere else though,

01:09:39   they don't need to be on the desk.

01:09:40   - Yeah, I could even run long cables

01:09:42   and like mount them under the desk

01:09:44   or on a shelf or something.

01:09:45   So that's the plan,

01:09:48   it's gonna be a stack of external drives.

01:09:51   Just a little disappointing.

01:09:53   But I am very excited about making the jump tap with silicon.

01:09:56   And--

01:09:57   - Why don't you just keep the Mac Pro

01:10:00   and put the Mac Studio inside of it?

01:10:02   And then everything will still be internal.

01:10:06   It'll be more internal, really, if you think about it.

01:10:10   - I mean, you're not wrong, but you're also not right at all.

01:10:13   - I mean, I'm right in my own way.

01:10:16   There's so many holes in that case,

01:10:17   you could thread some cables through there, you know?

01:10:20   It'd be fine.

01:10:21   As Myke says in the Discord, expandable.

01:10:23   - Expandable, no! - It's expandable.

01:10:25   (laughing)

01:10:27   - So yeah, the MacStudio's still a couple weeks out.

01:10:30   My plan is to sell the Mac Pro.

01:10:32   I've already had a couple of people

01:10:34   ask me about parts of the Mac Pro.

01:10:37   So I don't know, I may take some of the,

01:10:40   like that RAID card or,

01:10:43   I was gonna sell the, 'cause I upgraded the GPU,

01:10:47   I was gonna sell it separately

01:10:49   and then like put the stock GPU back in it

01:10:51   to sell the machine, but I sold the stock GPU,

01:10:54   apparently like a year ago.

01:10:55   I was looking through what I have on hand,

01:10:58   I was like, oh, I definitely got rid of that already.

01:11:00   So I'm not quite sure how it's gonna get sold off.

01:11:02   I know Myke, you think I should keep it, but--

01:11:04   - I think you should keep it.

01:11:05   Videri, could you agree with me?

01:11:06   I think you should keep the Mac Pro.

01:11:08   - Hmm.

01:11:09   - Yeah, see? - Yeah, keep it.

01:11:11   But there's something silly with it.

01:11:15   - Eric has the most Steven question,

01:11:18   which is in the discord.

01:11:21   Why not wait and see what the new Mac Pro will be?

01:11:24   Let me tell you, Eric, he's doing that.

01:11:26   He is waiting, but whilst waiting,

01:11:28   he's changing his computer.

01:11:30   - Yeah, this doesn't preclude me from moving again.

01:11:34   - No, it doesn't.

01:11:35   Flip flop, you know, there's a reason.

01:11:37   That's the other thing, which is why I've said

01:11:40   that he should not sell the Mac Pro immediately.

01:11:43   I think you need to hang on to it for a while.

01:11:45   - Yeah, I'm not selling it immediately,

01:11:46   Because I want to make sure that this works for me and the noise isn't a problem.

01:11:51   Because we found two asterisks so far.

01:11:54   Mm-hmm.

01:11:55   Noise and you're really upset about having to put the SSDs outside.

01:12:01   Yeah.

01:12:02   And so, you know, we've got two like chinks in the armor here for this computer.

01:12:08   And so I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't get rid of the Mac Pro yet because you might not like it.

01:12:16   Yeah, it'll stick around for a bit.

01:12:17   Mm-hmm.

01:12:19   And then maybe John Sirquiussa will buy

01:12:21   a Rayam out of it or something, who knows?

01:12:23   Mm-hmm.

01:12:24   Be like a car boot sale,

01:12:27   but just people just buying parts out of a Mac Pro.

01:12:31   I was thinking more like organ donation, right?

01:12:33   Like someone gets your liver, someone gets your heart,

01:12:35   someone gets your retinas.

01:12:37   Yeah.

01:12:38   Et cetera.

01:12:39   I can't imagine anyone's gonna put like the SSD

01:12:40   on like a bike and like get it across town though, on ice.

01:12:44   Stat, we gotta move this.

01:12:46   We got 20 minutes on this GPU.

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01:14:14   I was pretty convinced I could find him in Wired.

01:14:17   Yeah.

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01:15:07   Five years ago, we got some shocking news

01:15:11   that Apple was going to be acquiring workflow.

01:15:16   I remember this very well.

01:15:19   I was shocked that it's been five years,

01:15:22   but Federico, I'd love to talk to you about this news

01:15:25   and how you felt at the time

01:15:27   and how you think Apple's handled this

01:15:29   in the half decade since.

01:15:32   I love your worst case, best case sort of approach

01:15:37   to your article.

01:15:39   So we have this article called the future of workflow

01:15:42   in the show notes, where you outlined sort of

01:15:46   what you viewed as the worst outcome.

01:15:48   So maybe let's start with that.

01:15:49   Like what were you afraid of, you know,

01:15:52   that could have happened when Apple purchased workflow?

01:15:55   Like what was that worst case scenario in your mind?

01:15:58   - Right, right.

01:15:59   So the worst case scenario was sort of following the typical playbook of most startup acquisitions,

01:16:06   right?

01:16:07   That it was going to be an acqui hire so that the workflow team was going to join Apple,

01:16:11   but they would stop working on the workflow app and the workflow app would eventually

01:16:16   get discontinued as those folks had been hired by Apple and they started working on other

01:16:21   things.

01:16:22   And I feel like the concern was justified because in the acquisition news, a detail

01:16:27   that maybe some people do not remember is that Matthew Panzareno, when he broke the

01:16:31   news on TechCrunch, he mentioned specifically that the workflow team was going to be joining

01:16:37   the Siri and proactive intelligence teams at Apple. And that seems like, okay, why would

01:16:46   you want to work there on those teams? You know, especially Siri of five years ago. I

01:16:51   mean, Siri is not great now. Imagine five years ago. So there was some skepticism.

01:16:57   skepticism surrounding this acquisition and what would it mean. Also,

01:17:02   there was also, like, there was that constant underlying sense of, oh, this

01:17:11   entire app has been built on, you know, on a very risky foundation. It's a house

01:17:18   of cards based on a bunch of workarounds and, sure, native APIs, but are we sure

01:17:24   that Apple really likes what these young kids have been doing? And the answer is

01:17:31   that yeah, they were actually in love with it and the the worst case scenario

01:17:36   did not come true. Actually the the absolute best case scenario come true

01:17:41   and perhaps even more than I imagined. Yeah, you have in your article some

01:17:48   things that you hoped to see if Apple took the better path. So things like a better action

01:17:54   extension, new privileges, deeper integration. You talk about what you called workflow kit,

01:18:03   which would... Right, which eventually would be SiriKit. But that was... So my assumption was

01:18:10   all those things were... And I'm really, you know, patting myself on the back over here. I'm really

01:18:15   glad that I made those predictions because that was exactly what Apple ended up doing. So my idea was

01:18:22   Workflow has built this ecosystem of third-party apps that are compatible. I guess it's been five

01:18:30   years so maybe we can share these details now. We knew, some of us knew at the time that something

01:18:36   was happening because some of those applications that had that had workflow compatibility at

01:18:46   the time, they were suddenly asked by the workflow team to sign some additional paperwork

01:18:54   to grant them permission to use their URL schemes. Yeah, and I think we thought that

01:19:00   they were in legal trouble or were getting like someone is trying to sue them or something.

01:19:05   we knew/we thought that something was going on. And a few months later, the news of this

01:19:13   acquisition broke. So obviously, they were getting their affairs in order to prepare

01:19:18   to be acquired by Apple. But the idea was, well, they have this third-party ecosystem,

01:19:24   but it's all based on URL schemes and X-callback URL stuff. There has to be a better way to

01:19:31   to do this, right? And this is where Apple, you know, being, you know, Apple is Apple

01:19:36   because they have really smart people working on this stuff that can have a vision to turn

01:19:42   an existing product into something that you don't know you need, but that once you see

01:19:47   it, you're like, "Oh yeah, I guess that makes perfect sense." And the idea was, what if

01:19:52   we take this idea of having a system that allows apps to exchange data in the background,

01:20:03   or you know, things like to create notes, to start directions to a location, to retrieve

01:20:11   documents, whatever. What if that actually became part of the framework that we have

01:20:18   for Siri? And what if all these shortcuts that you created as the user could also be

01:20:25   triggered as a custom phrase in Siri? So that was the idea, blending together the world

01:20:32   of Siri and Workflow, then rename shortcuts, in a way that used the existing foundation.

01:20:40   That's where Apple was really smart. They didn't have to create a separate shortcuts

01:20:45   kit or whatever. They built on top of SiriKit, with wildly different results, right? Because

01:20:52   in Siri, the voice assistant continues to be largely inefficient, let's say, at dealing

01:21:01   with third-party app integrations. But in shortcuts, there are some really, really excellent

01:21:07   examples of SiriKit-based actions from third-party apps that let you do all kinds of stuff.

01:21:14   Especially because over the years Apple has raised the memory limit for these actions,

01:21:20   they have allowed even complex actions to run for longer in the background,

01:21:25   and now you can do things like Pixelmator Pro Super ML Resolution as a shortcuts action on the Mac.

01:21:33   So wildly different outcomes for the same technology, and I find that fascinating.

01:21:40   And obviously, the thing that I could not possibly expect at the time was shortcuts for Mac.

01:21:44   So Apple just coming right out last year and saying, "We believe shortcuts is the future

01:21:50   of automation on Apple platforms." Well, okay. So that's a big commitment. That's a big statement.

01:21:56   And so honestly, looking back at five years ago, all the things that I wanted came true.

01:22:03   But obviously, with time and with the relaunch of shortcuts in iOS 12,

01:22:08   and all the updates for iPad later, and most recently with Monterey, there are always new

01:22:16   things, right? There are always new problems that come up and always new wishes that you come up

01:22:21   with. And I feel like it's not all positive, right? There are still some lingering issues,

01:22:29   I would say, for example, the fact that shortcuts, almost on an annual basis, has undergone a

01:22:37   redesign in the editor, in the library, and last year, by switching to SwiftUI, they have

01:22:45   introduced dozens, hundreds maybe, of bugs and visual glitches on all platforms. Many

01:22:53   of them still haven't been fixed. Apple has been very proactive in reaching out to the

01:22:59   community and now they have full-on detailed release notes for shortcuts on apple.com,

01:23:06   which is incredible. All the individual bug fixes are mentioned in the release notes,

01:23:12   so that's great. They're making progress. But I said this last year and I'm going to

01:23:17   say it again, at some point the annual redesigns need to stop. And so hopefully now that they

01:23:23   have SwiftUI, that's done. And more broadly speaking, the other thing I would mention is

01:23:29   there's still work to be done in terms of consistency. Shortcuts at the moment is everywhere,

01:23:37   but it doesn't behave the same on all platforms, and you have these very different

01:23:43   possibilities. Whether you use shortcuts on the Mac or use it on the iPad or use it on the iPhone,

01:23:51   It's almost like they were made by separate teams. On the Mac you can fully control multitasking,

01:23:57   and you can resize and place windows anywhere. You can run JavaScript, you can run JavaScript,

01:24:04   you can run AppleScript, you have system-wide integration with the keyboard, so you can have

01:24:11   custom triggers. In Monterey version 12.3 they added this new option to shortcuts for Mac that I

01:24:19   found out about a couple of days ago, called Provide Output.

01:24:23   This is like a hidden toggle in the Details screen,

01:24:28   in the configuration screen for a shortcut.

01:24:31   And if you enable it, you can basically put together

01:24:34   shortcuts that automatically replace things

01:24:39   in the app that you're using.

01:24:40   Like for example, you're using TextEdit,

01:24:43   you select all the text in a document, the shortcut runs,

01:24:47   and if you have Provide Output enabled,

01:24:49   it replaces the selected text in the--

01:24:52   - I could make a markdown--

01:24:54   - Convert to Rich Text stuff.

01:24:56   Yes, I already made one.

01:24:58   And you know, it's one action.

01:25:01   To do that sort of stuff now, it's one action.

01:25:03   Because all you do is convert markdown to Rich Text,

01:25:07   one action, you go to the configuration screen,

01:25:09   you click on Provide Output, and that does it.

01:25:13   - And I could do that by keyboard shortcut too, right?

01:25:16   Yes, you select text, you run the keyboard.

01:25:19   So you see this, like on the Mac now,

01:25:21   you can do these incredible things with shortcuts.

01:25:24   And I get it, maybe on the iPhone,

01:25:26   you shouldn't be able to do them,

01:25:28   but on the iPad with the keyboard

01:25:31   and a very similar system, why not?

01:25:34   So enough with the redesigns, more stability,

01:25:37   performance improvements,

01:25:39   and I think the next big thing for shortcuts,

01:25:42   and maybe then we can go into some more specific wishes,

01:25:45   but the next big thing needs to be consistency.

01:25:50   Make the app behave as much as possible in a similar way.

01:25:55   - I mean, it is a necessity because the shortcuts sync.

01:26:00   You can't keep making them different from each other

01:26:04   when they sync cross-platform,

01:26:07   because then you end up with a bunch of problems,

01:26:09   like to the point that they had to introduce,

01:26:12   like detect device for this reason, right?

01:26:15   - As an action. - Exactly.

01:26:16   That's a symptom.

01:26:18   I get it, it's a nice option,

01:26:20   but that is also a symptom of a problem,

01:26:22   which is you gotta have conditions

01:26:24   to check the platform you're using.

01:26:27   That's not ideal.

01:26:28   Imagine if like reminders at a sub-menu that said,

01:26:30   "Mac only," but no, it doesn't have it.

01:26:34   - It's nice.

01:26:35   It's nice that they have it

01:26:36   because there are times where you might just want it

01:26:39   to be completely different as a shortcut.

01:26:42   I like that they embrace things that are Mac-ish,

01:26:46   like the menu bar or whatever, like that's great.

01:26:50   But you're right, like there are certain things like,

01:26:52   like the way that Safari actions would not work the same

01:26:54   or the way that, as you mentioned,

01:26:57   the multitasking actions just not doing the same thing

01:27:00   or not working at all.

01:27:01   It's like this stuff, we can't go like this forever.

01:27:06   I mean, it does make me actually like,

01:27:08   we're talking about like how much has changed in five years

01:27:11   and like how much farther ahead it is.

01:27:14   But there is still this point in my back of my mind,

01:27:16   which is reminds me of the iPad discussion

01:27:18   that we had last week Federico of like,

01:27:20   it's been five years and there are still these things

01:27:22   that are, that have not changed.

01:27:25   And like, and I, at this point don't understand why,

01:27:27   like, like keyboard shortcut triggering of shortcuts, right?

01:27:32   Especially now Apple has a second global modifier key.

01:27:39   - Yeah.

01:27:40   - Right? On the iPad that the Mac doesn't even have.

01:27:44   And you still can't do it, you know?

01:27:47   - Well, new Macs do, but it's not rolled out completely.

01:27:50   - New Macs do, but yeah.

01:27:51   Yeah.

01:27:52   - Yeah, because command, option, control, and shift

01:27:54   were not enough.

01:27:55   We needed a fifth one.

01:27:56   Going to five shortcuts.

01:27:58   - We're doing five blades.

01:28:00   We're doing five blades.

01:28:01   But, so looking ahead at the next five years, maybe,

01:28:05   I guess, performance improvements is the next big thing.

01:28:08   Like, you need to really polish this thing now.

01:28:12   And consistency, obviously.

01:28:14   But I think in the next five years, I would say,

01:28:17   let's keep an eye out for these features.

01:28:20   Third-party triggers for automations.

01:28:25   I think Apple should expand the list of potential triggers

01:28:28   for automations to include specific events

01:28:31   from third-party apps.

01:28:33   So go beyond schedule, like it's 7 p.m. on a Thursday,

01:28:37   or go beyond, you know, I'm connected to Wi-Fi.

01:28:39   Imagine if things like,

01:28:41   I received a new message in Tweetbot,

01:28:44   or in Slack from this person, could be a trigger.

01:28:48   So third-party triggers as events from apps.

01:28:53   That's something that I would love Apple to work on.

01:28:55   The Provide Output option that I just mentioned

01:28:59   is part of a bigger thing that I believe Apple

01:29:03   consider, which is more direct control for app UI. And I'm not talking necessarily about UI scripting,

01:29:14   which is notoriously a very bad thing to do, but I would love to have more options in shortcuts to

01:29:22   really control and speed up things that I do inside apps. Like, I don't know, open this

01:29:29   this document, switch to editing mode, share this document with this specific person, like

01:29:35   those kinds of actions that control features and the interface of third-party apps, that's

01:29:42   something that I would love to see in shortcuts, especially if more pro apps are coming to

01:29:48   iPad and iPhone, you know, five years from now.

01:29:50   Is that an Apple thing or a developer thing or both?

01:29:54   Well, I think it needs to be both, especially when--

01:29:58   I really see this as going in combination

01:30:00   with multitasking better, multitasking actions,

01:30:04   especially on iPad, to have fine-grained controls for,

01:30:09   let me create a specific workspace in shortcuts,

01:30:13   down to the specific window of the same app

01:30:16   and to the sizing of the window.

01:30:18   Like, I have three Safari windows open.

01:30:20   I want to pick this specific one,

01:30:22   and I wanna put it on the bottom left corner.

01:30:25   And then I want like reassembling an exact replica

01:30:29   of a workspace from Shortcuts

01:30:31   to basically have like a saved workspace, right?

01:30:33   That sort of integration, I think,

01:30:35   it needs to come from Apple.

01:30:37   And then, and this is the real sort of big picture stuff,

01:30:42   I really feel like there is a potential for Shortcuts

01:30:47   to be used as a sort of like as this recipe

01:30:51   building tool to create, it's called maybe presets for potential headsets or glasses

01:31:01   down the road. Because I imagine like having those kinds of devices on your face,

01:31:06   you will want to save as much time as possible while performing common actions. And so I feel

01:31:11   like there's a place for shortcuts to be like, you know, you say a phrase and a shortcut

01:31:18   presents you, cuts a bunch of steps from whatever you want to do. Like maybe you want to,

01:31:23   you know, you're wearing glasses in 2027 or something and you're like, okay, I'm heading home,

01:31:29   but I also want to text my partner and tell them I'm coming home. Like that sort of thing that you

01:31:34   can do now with the Apple Watch and the iPhone, but imagine becoming super quick and super invisible.

01:31:40   Because there's even less UI that you can tap, it's harder to do that. That's interesting.

01:31:46   What if someone made an app for sending fast texts?

01:31:50   How would that be like?

01:31:52   If it doesn't have feet, there's no point.

01:31:54   What would you call it? Quick, quick, quick, what do you call it? Quick type?

01:31:57   No, that's another thing.

01:31:59   Instant message?

01:32:01   Quick SMS?

01:32:04   Considering we're making fun of Casey again for no reason,

01:32:08   I would just like to take a moment to promote Casey's app called Masquerade.

01:32:11   It's very good.

01:32:12   lovely app that allows you to add emoji to images with face detection.

01:32:18   That's great. Gotta be nice at least one out of 20 times, you know?

01:32:21   Yeah, I mean, I think looking back over the last five years, there's so much in your article,

01:32:26   Federico, that came true. I think it's clear now that Apple bought shortcuts, maybe not

01:32:34   with exactly where we are in mind, but with the vision of this being their complete automation

01:32:41   story. I mean, we got that line from them last year to see that shortcuts is the

01:32:46   future of automation on the Mac. Automator will be eventually

01:32:50   sunsetted and they are bringing in those actions into the Mac and the Mac

01:32:55   version has scripting support and all sorts of wild stuff that I just I did

01:32:59   not expect to see but I'm so glad it's there and for me at least yeah there are

01:33:05   issues and there are bugs and they're all silly limitations especially on iOS

01:33:09   and iPadOS, but the vision I think is a good one.

01:33:14   And I'm encouraged that they seem to be taking it

01:33:17   really seriously because they should, right?

01:33:19   Like if pro users need something solid

01:33:24   to build their workflows on,

01:33:26   maybe shortcuts isn't quite there yet,

01:33:28   especially on the Mac, but I think with time it will be.

01:33:32   And that's exciting.

01:33:33   I'm glad that Apple cares about this

01:33:35   because I think that's important to a lot of their users.

01:33:39   And also to build on what you were saying to Stan Steven,

01:33:41   like that they consider it important enough

01:33:45   that it is a building block in the things

01:33:50   that they continue to push forward to, right?

01:33:53   With the potential of doing the kind of stuff

01:33:55   that Federica was talking about, you know?

01:33:57   That it's like it's there.

01:33:58   And it does feel like that they keep doing that.

01:34:00   Like they add new stuff and then shortcuts

01:34:03   takes advantage of it in a new way, right?

01:34:05   - Yeah. - There's always been

01:34:06   this system, the NS activity system or whatever, and they say well now we build shortcuts on

01:34:11   top of all of that, so it's like really baked into everything.

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01:36:46   the show and Relay FM I need to call a special connected Congress to order

01:36:53   What does that mean?

01:36:55   So there is a Google Doc link in the show notes I would like you to each open.

01:36:58   I'm opening it.

01:36:59   I spent some time in the mountains, and like a certain someone in the Old Testament, have

01:37:05   come down with a new set of rules.

01:37:08   Wow, someone came back with a self-inflated sense of themselves, I think is what they

01:37:15   actually came back with.

01:37:16   Oh yeah, like Noah.

01:37:18   Not Noah.

01:37:20   Bruce Banner.

01:37:22   Bruce Banner coming down from like Darth Vader Darth Vader had to go fight the

01:37:30   Power Rangers okay so yeah this I need to be really clear about what this is

01:37:35   and what this isn't this is a new document for the Ricky's it is a

01:37:40   suggested revision to the Bill of Ricky no this is a new constitution that

01:37:45   you're just I'm merely suggesting it this is I'm underlying this not an

01:37:51   an attempt to somehow introduce annual chairman powers

01:37:56   to affect change.

01:37:58   You know me, man.

01:38:00   You knew I was gonna say that.

01:38:01   I was just about to say, here we go, he's done it.

01:38:04   Yeah, I know.

01:38:06   This needs to be peer reviewed.

01:38:08   Well, that's what we're gonna do.

01:38:09   We cannot just, well, who are our peers?

01:38:13   We are the peers of him.

01:38:15   No, there needs to be an external committee.

01:38:17   No, there's not.

01:38:18   This is how you give them power and they take over.

01:38:21   - Ah.

01:38:22   - So I know Myke wants this like annual chairmanship

01:38:25   to come with power.

01:38:26   I don't agree with that.

01:38:27   This is not a move in that direction.

01:38:29   I've wanted to clean up.

01:38:30   - You don't agree with it, but as annual chairman,

01:38:33   you've decided you're gonna rewrite

01:38:34   the entire bill of Rickeys. - No, no.

01:38:35   As reader of the rules every time,

01:38:37   as someone who has to stumble through them,

01:38:40   they're too long and too wordy.

01:38:41   And so what I've done is simply cleaned them up

01:38:44   in this proposed bill of Rickeys.

01:38:48   So my suggestion is that I read these

01:38:52   and then I'll read a section and then we can talk about it.

01:38:55   How does that sound?

01:38:56   Okay, I mean, are you gonna tell us how you've changed it?

01:38:59   Is that gonna be a medium?

01:39:00   Yes, I have two notes prepared.

01:39:02   Okay.

01:39:02   So the first thing is something

01:39:04   that we've been meaning to do for a while

01:39:06   and we just haven't done it,

01:39:07   is some sort of preamble to explain

01:39:10   what the heck these episodes are.

01:39:12   Yeah, that's been a thing we've wanted to do for a bit,

01:39:14   but we've been pushed for time, so.

01:39:16   The other thing, the other kind of meta-structural thing

01:39:19   I've done is over time, the rules for the Ricky's

01:39:24   and the Flexys have been both together and apart.

01:39:27   I have truly separated them now.

01:39:30   They each have their own preamble

01:39:31   and their own set of rules.

01:39:33   And so I think as someone listens to these episodes,

01:39:36   especially if someone's new to the show, welcome.

01:39:38   - What a terrible episode to be new to,

01:39:40   like my word, Ricky's episodes.

01:39:44   - I'm sorry.

01:39:45   Yeah. We want to make that a better experience.

01:39:47   As you go through this, if me or Federico have something we want to say,

01:39:53   can we jump in or should we wait?

01:39:55   Let me read the whole,

01:39:56   so let me read like the Ricky's preamble and we'll talk about that and then I'll

01:39:59   read the Ricky's rules and we'll talk about that. How does that sound?

01:40:01   I'm fine with that.

01:40:03   Okay. Cause I may explain something later, you know, as we go. Okay.

01:40:06   So this is my proposed new Ricky's preamble. Okay.

01:40:11   The Ricky's is a game connected host play before Apple events.

01:40:15   It is made up of three rounds. Each host makes two regular picks followed by a risky pick.

01:40:21   Okay.

01:40:21   There are two types of rookies, annual rookies and keynote rookies. The winner of the annual

01:40:26   rookies is named annual chairman and retains the rights to the corresponding Twitter account

01:40:30   for the full year. This position is awarded every January. The keynote rookies winner

01:40:35   is named the keynote chairman and retains the rights to the corresponding Twitter account

01:40:39   until the next keynote is held. After the rookies, the hosts play a game called the

01:40:43   The Flexis, these two games have separate but related rules.

01:40:47   Please stand for the reading of the rules for the Ricky's.

01:40:50   So that's the preamble.

01:40:51   - I have three issues.

01:40:53   Three issues.

01:40:56   - I have one that I noticed when I was reading it.

01:41:00   The first sentence needs tweaking,

01:41:01   'cause we don't always play it before an Apple event.

01:41:04   We do have an annual version.

01:41:05   - There you go.

01:41:06   That was one of mine.

01:41:08   - We maybe need a different explanation.

01:41:10   So the Ricky's is a game connected to host play,

01:41:13   - Something, we need a better sentence there.

01:41:15   - Yeah, multiple times a year.

01:41:18   - Before Apple events or at the beginning of a new year.

01:41:23   - I'm gonna say and beginning of a new year.

01:41:26   - My next question is event/keynote because

01:41:31   - Oh, wait like.

01:41:34   - Just in general like.

01:41:36   - Well, it is keynote chairman.

01:41:38   - Yup.

01:41:40   - So it probably should be before Apple keynotes.

01:41:42   - Keynotes.

01:41:43   though they're technically not that anymore we're just gonna be old-school

01:41:46   that's the language that we choose to use the last thing is like I know I just

01:41:51   have to say it because it just makes more sense to me and I know everyone's

01:41:54   gonna disagree with me like the Rickies is to me it's the Rickies are singular

01:42:00   game but this is the difference between like America and the UK yeah well I just

01:42:07   need for like I need to get this okay and I think Federico needs to make the

01:42:11   deciding decision I'm sure he's gonna go with you but so I just think about this

01:42:15   and the reason I went singular is because I'm the one reading them and I

01:42:21   think now it makes more sense singular to me as well but also there are two

01:42:26   different types of Ricky's yeah but it's a game like it's a single game yeah and

01:42:31   the rules are the same between the different types are they what about the

01:42:35   365 rule is that still the same well we'll get to that we haven't read the

01:42:38   rules yet. I still, the Ricky's are is in my mind the right way to do it. If you

01:42:43   two both go with is that's fine but I need to get my like protestation out

01:42:48   into the world. And there's nothing saying that you can't say that I just

01:42:51   think the document it should be singular. Yeah I mean I will I there's no way I

01:42:54   can say it I just will it will break in my brain. Yeah because we also do Apple

01:42:58   is versus Apple are which it's the same thing kind of. Well I don't I say Apple

01:43:04   Apple are. Apple are sounds no it sounds wrong every single time. Apple is.

01:43:09   Apple is not a singular organism it is made up of a group of people. It's a

01:43:14   company. No it's a company. Made up of people. It's a company like no it doesn't

01:43:21   matter. It matters in English. We wouldn't say Apple is. We would always say

01:43:27   Apple are. How do you know about language anyway? I mean I speak the language that

01:43:31   that the two of you wish you owned.

01:43:33   - Wow.

01:43:34   (laughing)

01:43:36   - Yeah.

01:43:38   - Did you hear that still?

01:43:39   - Yeah.

01:43:40   - No, I did and we're moving on.

01:43:41   - He speaks the language that the two of us wish we could.

01:43:44   - Yeah, no, I'm aware of his feelings.

01:43:47   Read the preamble.

01:43:48   Please stand for the reading of the rules of the rookies.

01:43:51   I don't think--

01:43:52   - No, this is not an official--

01:43:53   - Yeah, well, I was gonna say,

01:43:54   y'all don't have to stand for this

01:43:55   'cause these aren't the rules yet, right?

01:43:57   This is a suggestion.

01:43:59   So here are the rules for the rookies.

01:44:02   Correct regular picks are awarded with one point.

01:44:05   Everything written down in the prediction document

01:44:08   must come true to earn any points

01:44:10   and no partial points may be awarded.

01:44:12   Correct risky picks are worth two points,

01:44:15   but wrong ones will cause a point to be deducted

01:44:18   from that host total.

01:44:20   Picks must have been approved as risky

01:44:22   by the two other hosts before the start of the game.

01:44:26   Scoring is done during recording

01:44:28   and cannot be modified once an episode is complete.

01:44:31   In the event of a tie, dice by Peacock

01:44:34   must be used in relay FM mode to pick a winner.

01:44:37   Jason Snell has a lifetime ban on flipping any coins

01:44:40   on connected or adjacent podcasts or events.

01:44:43   - I like that you've kept this.

01:44:44   I'm happy this stayed in, it's very important.

01:44:47   - And I needed the adjacent podcast and event

01:44:49   so he doesn't like sneak in a live show with a coin.

01:44:52   Like running on stage with a coin.

01:44:54   - I do feel like it's, actually I will say

01:44:56   It's kind of on-- oh, sorry.

01:44:57   I'll come back to this.

01:44:58   Yeah, the adjacent podcast is tricky.

01:45:00   We can talk about that.

01:45:01   The order of picks is set by previous performance.

01:45:04   For annual rookies, the winner of the previous year's game

01:45:07   goes first.

01:45:08   In the case of keynote rookies, the winner

01:45:10   of the previous game goes first.

01:45:12   In both cases, the loser goes last.

01:45:15   For keynote rookies, the scoring window

01:45:16   starts when the event begins and closes

01:45:19   when the picks are scored.

01:45:20   Any information in scoring must be publicly verifiable

01:45:24   at the time of scoring.

01:45:26   And then I have the, this is boilerplate,

01:45:29   but I'll read it now.

01:45:30   As a reminder, Steven is the current annual chairman

01:45:32   and Federico is the current keynote chairman.

01:45:35   A Twitter handle is on the line.

01:45:36   Past results can be seen at rookies.co and rookies.net.

01:45:40   The former also has a page about how to manage

01:45:42   your own scorekeeping at home.

01:45:44   So I've been working with our friend Lex at rookies.co.

01:45:49   Whether we use it or not, or it's in the rules or not,

01:45:51   I still wanted this on the page for people

01:45:54   to know how the tricky, the version of the trophies we have,

01:45:59   and the mag tricky, how to keep those correct.

01:46:01   So with images and stuff, I sent him some pictures,

01:46:03   so we're working on that.

01:46:04   - Okay.

01:46:05   - So that's the rules.

01:46:06   - All right.

01:46:07   - Thoughts?

01:46:08   - I have two.

01:46:08   - Okay.

01:46:09   - The, where is it, scoring, what is it?

01:46:13   No, it's in the top part.

01:46:15   Everything written down in the prediction document

01:46:17   must come true to earn any points.

01:46:19   I think agreed upon is better than written down,

01:46:22   because technically we write a lot of stuff in

01:46:25   to the document that is not counted in the scoring.

01:46:29   It is just context, it is flavor as they say.

01:46:31   So I just think like everything agreed upon

01:46:34   during the picking process, because we agree now, right?

01:46:37   Like I feel like we have naturally come to that

01:46:39   where we agree on what the pick is.

01:46:42   - And then there's the surrounding context.

01:46:44   - And then we give some extra bits.

01:46:47   Yeah, and it's not what's written down.

01:46:49   It's like we write that stuff in italics,

01:46:51   but that can't be in the rules.

01:46:53   - Well, maybe we don't need that phrase

01:46:55   and maybe it's just correct regular picks awarded one point,

01:46:59   no partial points can be awarded.

01:47:01   - There's a good reason we need something like this

01:47:03   because one of us will try and wriggle out of it

01:47:05   at some point, but it's just like.

01:47:08   - So what about like,

01:47:10   I'm just gonna make a new paragraph so we can compare.

01:47:11   - There's like, there is this idea

01:47:13   of it being agreed upon, I think is the--

01:47:16   - Is the language used for regular picks.

01:47:21   must be finalized and agreed upon during recording.

01:47:26   - There you go, that's perfect for me.

01:47:28   - And no partial points may be awarded.

01:47:30   That feel good?

01:47:31   - I think that works, yeah.

01:47:32   - Okay.

01:47:33   - I have a problem with saying Jason can't flip coins

01:47:36   on adjacent podcasts.

01:47:37   I just don't think we have the jurisdiction

01:47:39   to say he can't flip a coin on the incomparable, for example.

01:47:42   - Okay, so--

01:47:43   - Maybe Jason doesn't want to,

01:47:44   but I think that should be Jason's thing.

01:47:46   - So I meant for that to really be like,

01:47:48   I don't know what Jason like rage flipping on upgrade

01:47:52   because we banned him here.

01:47:54   But I guess we can't really say that.

01:47:56   We can't stop him from doing that, you know?

01:47:59   OK, so we'll just say he has any--

01:48:01   he's a lifetime ban on flipping any coins on connected.

01:48:05   What if Jason Snyder has a lifetime ban on flipping

01:48:08   any coins on connected, semicolon, other coin

01:48:11   flips by Jason on a Jason podcast are frowned upon?

01:48:15   Yeah.

01:48:17   So, Simico and coin.

01:48:20   - Or similarly, we judge anybody that allows Jason

01:48:24   to flip a coin on their behalf.

01:48:26   - Let's say coins.

01:48:28   I kinda like-

01:48:29   - I like the frowned upon though.

01:48:29   - Yeah, coins flipped by Jason on other-

01:48:33   - And I do agree with the suggestion that Jason is making

01:48:36   in the Discord right now,

01:48:38   not about connected, but about for the Ricky's.

01:48:42   Right?

01:48:44   we do the Rickies not on connected. Like a live really FM show. Yeah, there will be a loophole for Jason.

01:48:52   We're doing some kind of like 10th anniversary show and we're grading some Rickies and he runs

01:48:58   on and starts flipping coins left right and center. So his lifetime ban of flipping any coins in

01:49:03   relation to the Rickies? Yeah. Simecolon coins flipped by Jason to other podcasts are allowed

01:49:10   but frowned upon love it. What I will say as well like this. This is not for

01:49:15   the rules, but just as like a thing for us to talk about Jason never flips coins.

01:49:19   He throws them. That's the problem. If he could flip a coin, it would be fun if I

01:49:24   do flips and quotes in the rules coin flips. I love it. Yeah coin flips by

01:49:30   Jason on other podcasts are allowed, but are found and every time you say it, you

01:49:34   have to do the like yeah you know flips he wishes the other thing that I came

01:49:44   across that was a little weird as I was reading it was the last paragraph

01:49:47   cuz I didn't read these out loud when I wrote them yeah yeah the scoring window

01:49:51   starts when the event begins and closes when the pics are scored any information

01:49:55   used in scoring must be publicly verifiable at the time of scoring I want

01:49:59   to change that last one just like time of recording I think yeah recording is

01:50:03   - That's perfect.

01:50:03   - Not to repeat it?

01:50:04   - Yes.

01:50:05   - So, some things I removed.

01:50:07   I removed the rule about not being able to reuse picks.

01:50:12   That's my suggestion, that we banish that rule.

01:50:15   The other thing I got rid of was closing ceremonies

01:50:20   because we've never actually done it.

01:50:21   And I think that pointing people to rickys.co--

01:50:23   - We'll come back to the reusing.

01:50:25   I think we should still say it as a closing ceremonies.

01:50:28   The reason why I reckon we should have it

01:50:30   is because it is a future merchandising opportunity.

01:50:33   Right?

01:50:36   So I think there is benefit to keeping it in the rules.

01:50:39   I mean, one day we'll do it.

01:50:43   - So what if I say in both cases the loser goes last,

01:50:48   winners will be recognized.

01:50:51   - During the closing ceremonies.

01:50:52   - During the closing ceremonies.

01:50:55   And if we just never, if we always keep forgetting it,

01:50:57   then it's like a running gag.

01:50:59   I mean, at this point it is accidentally won.

01:51:01   And maybe the winner's just never recognized.

01:51:04   We'll be contested winners.

01:51:07   That's the problem.

01:51:09   Is there an ability to contest the winner

01:51:11   if we never recognize the winner

01:51:12   because we keep forgetting?

01:51:14   What about winners will be celebrated?

01:51:15   - No, because scoring is done during recording.

01:51:18   Scoring is completed during recording.

01:51:19   - I would prefer winners will be celebrated

01:51:20   during the closing ceremonies.

01:51:22   - Maybe.

01:51:23   - I think that might be better than recognized.

01:51:25   - Anything else with the Ricky's?

01:51:29   - Not that part, no, I'm good with it.

01:51:30   - Okay.

01:51:31   - Yeah, this all looks good so far.

01:51:34   - Well, I tell you what,

01:51:36   I feel like we've done a lot of legislation today.

01:51:38   Let's deal with the flexies next week.

01:51:41   How's that sound?

01:51:42   - Considering you ambushed us today with this,

01:51:46   I actually would like some time to sit on this.

01:51:50   - Exactly.

01:51:51   - Yeah, 'cause we actually haven't settled the 365

01:51:54   reusing pics things.

01:51:56   - Yeah, I need to think about that one actually,

01:51:58   Because I think that there is a benefit in--

01:52:02   Because, yeah, it did add like a fun mechanic to the--

01:52:08   There is the idea of I'll just get it next time, which

01:52:11   that doesn't sit well with me.

01:52:12   I think we need to come up with some kind of reusing perk.

01:52:16   Yeah, I think Jason had a suggestion of reuse--

01:52:20   not being able to reuse them the next round.

01:52:23   So like, if I--

01:52:24   How does that count for the annuals?

01:52:26   Right, we'll talk about this next week.

01:52:27   We'll talk about this next week.

01:52:28   - Okay, so we will come back to this.

01:52:30   I have a little to-do list now at the top of the document.

01:52:33   In the meantime, if you wanna find links

01:52:35   to stuff we spoke about, head on over to our website,

01:52:37   relay.fm/connected/390.

01:52:41   While you're there, you can leave feedback or follow up.

01:52:45   There's an email link there.

01:52:47   Or you can do it on Twitter.

01:52:47   You can find Myke on Twitter as I-M-Y-K-E.

01:52:52   Myke, tell people about your new show.

01:52:54   - If you are a fan of Formula One racing,

01:52:56   which you should be.

01:52:57   If you're not, you should watch Drive to Survive on Netflix and you can make those noises.

01:53:01   I don't know who it was that did that, is it Steven or Federico, but maybe it was just

01:53:05   a real Formula One car, I don't know.

01:53:07   You can check out, I've got a new show on relay FM and streaming live on YouTube.

01:53:10   It's called the Backmarkers and we're at backmarkers.fm for the audio, backmarkers.live for the video.

01:53:18   It's Austin Evans and I and we stream live after every race of the Formula One season.

01:53:24   It's a different thing for me doing a video podcast, like it's a video podcast as well

01:53:29   as an audio podcast, which has been a fun experience.

01:53:34   I reckon people go, I would recommend people check it out if they have any interest in

01:53:38   Formula One, we're building this for new fans.

01:53:41   That's the whole idea, so please check it out.

01:53:43   You can find Federico on Twitter @Vittici, V I T I C C I, and he is the editor and chief

01:53:49   of MacStories.net.

01:53:52   You can find me on Twitter as ismh and my writing at 512 pixels.net.

01:53:56   I'd like to thank our sponsors Squarespace, Hover, Trade Coffee, and Theragun.

01:54:01   I'd also like to thank our members if you're interested in Connected Pro, which is a longer

01:54:06   ad-free version of the show each and every week.

01:54:09   You can join there at the Relay.fm/Connected webpage.

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01:54:19   membership extras, shows, wallpapers, a lot of good stuff there. Until next time guys, say goodbye.

01:54:25   Adios adios. Cheerio. Bye y'all.