Connected

00:00:00 ◼   ► [MUSIC PLAYING]

00:00:03 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Connected.

00:00:10 ◼   ► Welcome to episode 390.

00:00:13 ◼   ► I am your host-- well, actually, one of your co-hosts,

00:00:15 ◼   ► Tom Federico.

00:00:16 ◼   ► And it's my pleasure, first of all,

00:00:18 ◼   ► to thank our four sponsors this week, Squarespace, Hover,

00:00:22 ◼   ► Trade Coffee, and Theragun.

00:00:24 ◼   ► You will be able to hear more about them later.

00:00:27 ◼   ► But it's also my pleasure to introduce my other co-host from the United States of America,

00:00:32 ◼   ► more specifically Memphis, Tennessee, Stephen Hackett.

00:00:35 ◼   ► Hey Federico.

00:00:37 ◼   ► Hi.

00:00:38 ◼   ► Hey.

00:00:39 ◼   ► I think I'm getting the hang of these intros.

00:00:42 ◼   ► It was good.

00:00:43 ◼   ► You hit the "from" really hard.

00:00:44 ◼   ► Yes, you gotta do that, right?

00:00:46 ◼   ► You gotta do that, because Myke does it, has been doing it forever.

00:00:50 ◼   ► I do not do it anymore.

00:00:52 ◼   ► No, you do it.

00:00:53 ◼   ► Jason used to make fun of me all the time.

00:00:55 ◼   ► It's like how Austin dropped the "hey guys, this is Austin".

00:01:00 ◼   ► But it's not exactly the same, but yeah, he did stop doing that.

00:01:03 ◼   ► But I do still say for him, I just don't put all the energy on it, you know?

00:01:07 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:01:08 ◼   ► Well, now I do.

00:01:09 ◼   ► So I am your...

00:01:10 ◼   ► The baton has passed to you.

00:01:14 ◼   ► The bassoon has passed to you Federico.

00:01:16 ◼   ► And if you want to hear more about bassoons and other flute-like instruments, make sure

00:01:22 ◼   ► to sign up for Connected Pro.

00:01:24 ◼   ► very serious, very professional, members-only version of Connected that people can get where,

00:01:30 ◼   ► Myke? At getconnectedpro.co. Yes. Anyway, we're jumping ahead because Stephen, you are supposed

00:01:36 ◼   ► to introduce our third co-host from London, England. Yes, we are joined by Mr. Myke Hurley.

00:01:43 ◼   ► Hello. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hey, I missed y'all last week, but I enjoyed listening to the show. I

00:01:50 ◼   ► I thought it was a very good episode.

00:01:52 ◼   ► - Thank you.

00:01:53 ◼   ► - And now I'm back.

00:01:55 ◼   ► - Spoke a lot about video games as we all want to do

00:01:58 ◼   ► when you're not around, yep.

00:01:59 ◼   ► - A friend of mine texted me and was like,

00:02:01 ◼   ► I'm listening connected, you're not on it.

00:02:02 ◼   ► And I can't tell if I accidentally hit play on remaster.

00:02:05 ◼   ► It's like, yeah, they do that.

00:02:06 ◼   ► - We do that.

00:02:07 ◼   ► - It's fine, it's fine.

00:02:08 ◼   ► It's always a good episode.

00:02:09 ◼   ► Let's start with some follow up.

00:02:11 ◼   ► And this week it is mostly about the studio display,

00:02:16 ◼   ► which you all spoke about last episode.

00:02:18 ◼   ► - Myke, a little bit.

00:02:19 ◼   ► - A little bit, yeah.

00:02:20 ◼   ► promised that you would. We really built the anticipation for it, you know, so you got

00:02:26 ◼   ► to deliver now. Yeah, I went to a store with Myke, do you have a shipping date on yours

00:02:30 ◼   ► yet? Nah man, it's just sometime between the 30th of March and sometime in April. Yeah,

00:02:37 ◼   ► that's what my Mac Studio says. Yeah, oh really? Because you built a little, right? I did,

00:02:43 ◼   ► yeah, we will get to that, there's lots of Mac Studio stuff later in the episode. But

00:02:48 ◼   ► Reviews are out, everything.

00:02:50 ◼   ► I caught up, watched them all, read them all.

00:02:52 ◼   ► And it's just so interesting to me

00:02:54 ◼   ► that this display seems to have some camera issues.

00:02:59 ◼   ► I don't think we'll have to go over that.

00:03:00 ◼   ► It's been covered a lot.

00:03:01 ◼   ► But what's interesting to me is that this thing is,

00:03:03 ◼   ► it's not even like basically a computer.

00:03:05 ◼   ► It is a computer.

00:03:06 ◼   ► Like it is what, an iPhone 11 inside or an old iPad Air.

00:03:11 ◼   ► It's got the A13 bionic, lots of storage.

00:03:14 ◼   ► It's so interesting to me the way they solved this.

00:03:16 ◼   ► - I enjoyed a tweet from Joanna Stern.

00:03:19 ◼   ► She was like, "I'm looking forward

00:03:20 ◼   ► "to the first tear down of this

00:03:22 ◼   ► "where they take the screen off

00:03:23 ◼   ► "and an iPad just falls out."

00:03:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

00:03:25 ◼   ► - That was pretty funny.

00:03:27 ◼   ► - It looks like a computer inside.

00:03:30 ◼   ► It's pretty interesting.

00:03:34 ◼   ► And even back in the days of like the Thunderbolt display,

00:03:38 ◼   ► they were putting more and more into the monitor, right?

00:03:42 ◼   ► to handle all of the I/O and all the display stuff.

00:03:46 ◼   ► The Pro Display XDR has lots of fanciness in it.

00:03:50 ◼   ► It's, you know, big, thick, chunky thing

00:03:52 ◼   ► with lots of spinning parts, fans,

00:03:54 ◼   ► and you know, the creepy holes

00:03:56 ◼   ► that now I'm touching on either side of my monitor.

00:03:58 ◼   ► And this thing just really kind of follows

00:04:00 ◼   ► in those footsteps, but it's the first time

00:04:02 ◼   ► I think we've seen really Apple basically just picking up

00:04:05 ◼   ► like an A series chip and putting it directly into a display.

00:04:09 ◼   ► But it makes sense.

00:04:11 ◼   ► This is obviously really good for like embedded systems.

00:04:13 ◼   ► It can run forever, nice and stable, plenty of horsepower.

00:04:17 ◼   ► We'll see if they can solve the camera thing.

00:04:19 ◼   ► And hopefully it's not something

00:04:22 ◼   ► that the A13 is just underpowered for,

00:04:25 ◼   ► but because it runs iOS, they can just update it.

00:04:28 ◼   ► And there were some tweets over the last few days

00:04:32 ◼   ► of people looking at the updates,

00:04:33 ◼   ► looking at the tech details.

00:04:35 ◼   ► It's pretty interesting stuff to me.

00:04:37 ◼   ► - It's interesting as well that they've,

00:04:39 ◼   ► that it's actually got 64 gigabytes of storage, right?

00:04:42 ◼   ► Like that just feels so weird.

00:04:45 ◼   ► Like I did to put storage in a display.

00:04:47 ◼   ► - I mean, you gotta cache the pixels.

00:04:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, you gotta cache the pixels.

00:04:53 ◼   ► My guess is that the A13 they're using,

00:04:56 ◼   ► like that's just the most efficient one they have around,

00:05:00 ◼   ► but it seems like a waste.

00:05:02 ◼   ► I don't know why.

00:05:03 ◼   ► It has to be coming down to economics.

00:05:05 ◼   ► I don't know why you would do it otherwise.

00:05:07 ◼   ► - I think I heard someone say,

00:05:08 ◼   ► I don't remember who now, but like just the idea that they maybe just have these basically

00:05:13 ◼   ► packages of things, right? And like an A13 with a 64 gigabyte SSD is just like a thing

00:05:18 ◼   ► they already have tons of or can very easily make. So they just put it in there even though

00:05:23 ◼   ► they'll maybe never need that amount. Like, but they need some, right? Because it runs

00:05:28 ◼   ► iOS, like a version of iOS, which is also hilarious. But yeah, question. I have a question

00:05:36 ◼   ► for you. I don't know if anybody knows the answer to this yet. Is it possible to do touch

00:05:42 ◼   ► ID on a keyboard with a Mac that doesn't support it if you have that display? Does anybody

00:05:48 ◼   ► know the answer to that question? Do you understand what I'm asking?

00:05:52 ◼   ► I don't know. My guess would be no, that they're not sending any like secure enclave authentication

00:06:00 ◼   ► over Thunderbolt.

00:06:02 ◼   ► Because I know that the display enables a Mac to do things that otherwise a Mac couldn't

00:06:07 ◼   ► do like spatial audio and stuff like that.

00:06:10 ◼   ► And Ahoy telephone will work on Macs that don't support it if they're hooked up to this

00:06:14 ◼   ► display but I have not seen anything about Touch ID.

00:06:16 ◼   ► I would be surprised if they had enabled that.

00:06:19 ◼   ► It'd be cool but...

00:06:20 ◼   ► Yeah fair enough.

00:06:21 ◼   ► I just wondered how much of the package actually gets included.

00:06:26 ◼   ► There was another tweet that I really liked by this guy named Federico who said Apple

00:06:29 ◼   ► is making a new consumer display that has the guts of a base model iPad, but the iPad

00:06:35 ◼   ► still doesn't really support external displays. That made me laugh.

00:06:38 ◼   ► Yeah, well, that guy's an idiot, so of course he makes me laugh.

00:06:41 ◼   ► I want to see him know.

00:06:43 ◼   ► Well, I mean, it's true, though, right? It is a base model iPad inside. You know, it's

00:06:49 ◼   ► even got the 64 gigs of storage. And I just find it—I understand, like, this is a display,

00:06:55 ◼   ► a modern display that, you know, you start seeing this convergence of, well, it's not

00:07:00 ◼   ► just a monitor, it also powers software features even for Macs that do not have them, so it

00:07:05 ◼   ► makes sense to have an A13 inside, but if you think about it, it's kind of ironic that

00:07:11 ◼   ► the same hardware, right, of a base model iPad is in a display, and that of course the

00:07:17 ◼   ► display does display things, but the iPad still can't. And, you know, it's a funny tweet

00:07:23 ◼   ► but the underlying point is true. I would be really surprised. I actually also liked

00:07:30 ◼   ► this tweet from Chris Lolly, friend of the show, if anybody can find it. It was in response to this

00:07:37 ◼   ► tweet, I think. And Chris said, like, personal theory, you know, I see that the iPad Pro supports

00:07:44 ◼   ► the, um, the, what's the Pro Display XDR? Okay, I got it. I had a bit of an epiphany over the weekend.

00:07:52 ◼   ► The studio display requires the USB-C 10 gigabit per second.

00:07:56 ◼   ► The Pro Display XDR requires Thunderbolt.

00:07:58 ◼   ► The iPad Air got that USB spec

00:08:00 ◼   ► and the iPad Pro got Thunderbolt.

00:08:02 ◼   ► Maybe I'm reading too much into this,

00:08:04 ◼   ► but monitor support coming in iOS 16?

00:08:06 ◼   ► - So that would be- - This feels like,

00:08:08 ◼   ► this to me, no offense to you and Chris,

00:08:12 ◼   ► the desperation of an iPad user.

00:08:15 ◼   ► - Probably. - Of like,

00:08:16 ◼   ► trying- - No, you're right.

00:08:17 ◼   ► - Like doing the string, you know,

00:08:18 ◼   ► like the always sunny meme.

00:08:21 ◼   ► like please give me what I want and I will find a way to get there. Maybe he's right

00:08:25 ◼   ► but I don't know. I just feel like, you know, to hurt too many times, that kind of thing.

00:08:30 ◼   ► Still I'm gonna be upset if they don't do it in 16 because it's just so obvious at this

00:08:37 ◼   ► point that all the pieces for this are ready. They just gotta do it and honestly they have

00:08:42 ◼   ► been ready for the past couple of years. That's what stings here, that they have done the

00:08:46 ◼   ► pointer and the magic keyboard in 2020 and multitasking was already there. So I guess

00:08:53 ◼   ► the only thing that they added was multi-window, but that was also in 2020. So really for the

00:08:57 ◼   ► past two years, all the technical pieces have been in place, but they haven't done it. And

00:09:03 ◼   ► now that they are, it stings even more because now they are back to making their own consumer

00:09:09 ◼   ► display and so all those feelings, they bubble up again. That's why I think iPad users are,

00:09:16 ◼   ► know are in the bargaining stage again you know because it's like come on just do it

00:09:21 ◼   ► you know come on can't you just do it and I can see that.

00:09:24 ◼   ► I want to understand what you're hoping for or looking for here is it just that like you

00:09:29 ◼   ► could plug it into a display and you would get a bigger view like or do you want like

00:09:33 ◼   ► free moving windows more apps on screen like that kind of stuff.

00:09:38 ◼   ► Well I would be fine with I would be fine with just having an extended home screen so

00:09:45 ◼   ► that you move beyond the basic mirroring that you have now.

00:09:51 ◼   ► And what you can do is you have your iPad that retains its home

00:09:54 ◼   ► screen, and you can place other apps and other windows

00:09:58 ◼   ► on the external monitor.

00:10:00 ◼   ► So it's like extended display mode on the Mac,

00:10:02 ◼   ► but on iPad OS.

00:10:04 ◼   ► Now, that would be the bare minimum.

00:10:07 ◼   ► Like, don't do mirroring.

00:10:08 ◼   ► Let me control-- let me place other windows

00:10:11 ◼   ► on the other display.

00:10:12 ◼   ► But there would be some additional niceties, I think,

00:10:15 ◼   ► that would be, well, nice to have.

00:10:17 ◼   ► Like, for example, can I put the iPad in clamshell mode

00:10:22 ◼   ► and use my existing Bluetooth keyboard

00:10:25 ◼   ► and Bluetooth trackpad and do what I would be able to do

00:10:29 ◼   ► with a Mac but on an external display?

00:10:31 ◼   ► Right now, if you plug in an iPad Pro

00:10:33 ◼   ► to an external monitor and you lock the iPad Pro,

00:10:36 ◼   ► you don't see anything anymore on the external monitor.

00:10:39 ◼   ► It just goes black.

00:10:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, that is annoying.

00:10:41 ◼   ► But also, I could make an argument in favor of maybe not freely resizable windows, maybe

00:10:49 ◼   ► not that, but more sizing options, more layout options.

00:10:54 ◼   ► And Apple likes to do this sort of thing, right?

00:10:57 ◼   ► They take an existing feature from Mac OS and they remix it, if you will.

00:11:02 ◼   ► They convert it to an iPadOS equivalent.

00:11:07 ◼   ► Look what they've done with the App Switcher,

00:11:10 ◼   ► with Split View, with Slide Over.

00:11:12 ◼   ► Like, they take something that you want

00:11:15 ◼   ► and they put a new spin on it.

00:11:17 ◼   ► So I would be fine with not the macOS system.

00:11:21 ◼   ► So you go to the corner of the window

00:11:23 ◼   ► and the cursor becomes the two arrows

00:11:26 ◼   ► and you can freely resize a window.

00:11:28 ◼   ► I could live without that on iPadOS,

00:11:31 ◼   ► but I think if they do add support for external monitors,

00:11:35 ◼   ► they also need to do multiple sizing options,

00:11:39 ◼   ► meaning you can just do external monitor support,

00:11:44 ◼   ► but Split View remains limited to two windows

00:11:47 ◼   ► at the same time.

00:11:48 ◼   ► You gotta support more layout modes

00:11:52 ◼   ► than just two apps at the same time.

00:11:54 ◼   ► So I compromise, is what I'm looking for, I guess.

00:11:57 ◼   ► - If they were to do the true multi-window support,

00:12:02 ◼   ► do you see those application windows

00:12:05 ◼   ► or whatever the document windows being fully like resizable

00:12:10 ◼   ► or do you think that we would get options?

00:12:12 ◼   ► - Well, something like windows comes to mind, right?

00:12:15 ◼   ► Where you have all those like the corners of the display

00:12:20 ◼   ► and the layouts like on windows when you hold down,

00:12:24 ◼   ► I don't remember the key,

00:12:25 ◼   ► but when you hold down, you get the pop-up

00:12:27 ◼   ► and some like Mac OS does this kind of,

00:12:30 ◼   ► but it's better on windows

00:12:32 ◼   ► and third-party window managers, they do this on macOS,

00:12:34 ◼   ► like a list of pre-assembled configurations,

00:12:37 ◼   ► like top right or bottom left,

00:12:40 ◼   ► or three quarters of the screen.

00:12:44 ◼   ► And maybe you could do four apps at the same time.

00:12:47 ◼   ► Maybe it would also depend on the size

00:12:50 ◼   ► of the external display that you're connecting to.

00:12:52 ◼   ► Meaning, if you are connecting

00:12:54 ◼   ► to a 15-inch external monitor,

00:12:56 ◼   ► like the portable OLED monitor that I have,

00:12:59 ◼   ► it's a portable gaming monitor.

00:13:01 ◼   ► It's 15.6 inches.

00:13:03 ◼   ► On that thing, I could see maybe three apps in Split View,

00:13:07 ◼   ► but not any more than that.

00:13:09 ◼   ► But if you are connecting to a 27-inch monitor,

00:13:12 ◼   ► well, in that case, you can do, I don't know, four or five.

00:13:16 ◼   ► Maybe you can do a grid of iPad windows in, quote unquote,

00:13:20 ◼   ► "Split View."

00:13:21 ◼   ► That is more of a grid view.

00:13:23 ◼   ► There you go, Apple.

00:13:24 ◼   ► Just call it grid view.

00:13:25 ◼   ► Do a grid view in iPadOS 16 for external monitor support.

00:13:29 ◼   ► That would be excellent.

00:13:30 ◼   ► So it's complicated, right?

00:13:32 ◼   ► Because you don't want to have the complexity of macOS,

00:13:35 ◼   ► and you likely don't want to deal with all that baggage

00:13:39 ◼   ► that comes from decades of macOS tradition.

00:13:43 ◼   ► And you're like, well, if we do this on iPadOS,

00:13:45 ◼   ► we don't want to do the freely resizable window

00:13:47 ◼   ► with the dragging indicator for a window.

00:13:50 ◼   ► And okay, I understand that.

00:13:52 ◼   ► But at the same time, you got to compromise somewhere.

00:13:55 ◼   ► And maybe the compromise would be,

00:13:56 ◼   ► what if we gave users more pre-built layouts?

00:14:01 ◼   ► So it's not freely resizable,

00:14:04 ◼   ► but you get more options than you do now.

00:14:07 ◼   ► That system would also scale

00:14:10 ◼   ► to a future bigger iPad Pro, right?

00:14:14 ◼   ► So that would be okay, I think.

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00:16:12 ◼   ► Our thanks to Squarespace for the support of connected

00:16:15 ◼   ► and all of Relay FM.

00:16:18 ◼   ► - So last week I asked connected listeners,

00:16:21 ◼   ► the passionate ones to tell me if they use SharePlay.

00:16:25 ◼   ► And I've been getting tweets from connected listeners

00:16:28 ◼   ► that use SharePlay.

00:16:29 ◼   ► Because I was genuinely intrigued

00:16:32 ◼   ► at what one may use SharePlay for.

00:16:35 ◼   ► And I could imagine some scenarios,

00:16:38 ◼   ► but I got a few that were additional.

00:16:40 ◼   ► Will you allow me to read from the listener base?

00:16:44 ◼   ► I'll go through this pretty quickly.

00:16:46 ◼   ► - Will allow it, yeah.

00:16:47 ◼   ► - Okay, so JD, who had a very special story

00:16:50 ◼   ► in Connected Pro today, and a friend,

00:16:52 ◼   ► used it to watch Disney+ shows together

00:16:55 ◼   ► when they're released.

00:16:56 ◼   ► Rod uses it to listen to music

00:16:58 ◼   ► with his mom, who lives far away.

00:17:00 ◼   ► Chris uses it for date night.

00:17:03 ◼   ► Chris, who we previously mentioned in the show today.

00:17:05 ◼   ► When his partner was traveling,

00:17:07 ◼   ► they watched a movie together.

00:17:09 ◼   ► Sigmund has used it for big screen bilingual group viewing of TV shows using

00:17:14 ◼   ► iOS devices to deliver audio tracks of choice. What does that mean?

00:17:18 ◼   ► I don't know, but that's what Sigmund told me. Big screen.

00:17:23 ◼   ► So here's what I'm thinking. Sigmund meant of like a bunch of people.

00:17:26 ◼   ► Oh yeah. Right. Yeah. Watching an Apple TV show at the same time.

00:17:30 ◼   ► I don't know what big screen, I didn't really know what that part meant,

00:17:33 ◼   ► but big screen. But like people could choose their own language, right?

00:17:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, of course you can.

00:17:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

00:17:40 ◼   ► - And so everyone could watch it at the same time,

00:17:42 ◼   ► but they get their audio tracks that they want.

00:17:46 ◼   ► Ricky watches movies with their friend

00:17:47 ◼   ► who lives across the US from them.

00:17:50 ◼   ► Daniel uses it to watch TikTok videos

00:17:52 ◼   ► with their sister who just moved away.

00:17:54 ◼   ► Alex uses it to watch TV+ shows

00:17:56 ◼   ► with their partner who lives in another country.

00:17:58 ◼   ► Kent uses it as a way to hack around Fitness Plus

00:18:02 ◼   ► so they can do fitness workouts with their partner

00:18:05 ◼   ► in the same room and both get the activity for it.

00:18:10 ◼   ► Claire uses it to share music with their partner, who

00:18:13 ◼   ► lives far away, of course, and really appreciates

00:18:15 ◼   ► the shared audio controls, like play and pause,

00:18:18 ◼   ► so you can actually sync up properly.

00:18:22 ◼   ► They also use it with a group of friends

00:18:23 ◼   ► to do working together hangout type situations.

00:18:26 ◼   ► So like a bunch of people on a call,

00:18:28 ◼   ► someone might put a video on or whatever,

00:18:30 ◼   ► but they're all hanging out.

00:18:31 ◼   ► Eric uses it for Fitness Plus and working out

00:18:35 ◼   ► with their daughter while traveling.

00:18:36 ◼   ► And Cade watches TikToks with their partner

00:18:39 ◼   ► who lives far away and also have a date night movies.

00:18:41 ◼   ► So there's a lot of overlap in these,

00:18:43 ◼   ► but that was every single person in our audience

00:18:48 ◼   ► that wanted to contact me about how they use SharePlay.

00:18:52 ◼   ► I saved all of them and that is them.

00:18:55 ◼   ► Most of these I could have imagined

00:18:57 ◼   ► as like a thing that people would wanna do.

00:18:59 ◼   ► I just didn't know how much of a great experience

00:19:01 ◼   ► it would have been,

00:19:02 ◼   ► but everybody that contacted me seemed pretty positive about SharePlay as a

00:19:07 ◼   ► technology. So it's definitely making people happy, you know,

00:19:11 ◼   ► um, but I don't, I still, having read all of that,

00:19:15 ◼   ► I just don't think I would go through the aggravation of using it because

00:19:20 ◼   ► all of these things, right? So like, let's imagine we're watching a movie,

00:19:24 ◼   ► right? I don't need to be on a FaceTime call for the whole time.

00:19:27 ◼   ► Like I don't need that.

00:19:30 ◼   ► - That's the thing that gets me to like,

00:19:35 ◼   ► these use cases are great,

00:19:37 ◼   ► and I'm really happy that people send these over.

00:19:40 ◼   ► Maybe it's not just for us and that's fine.

00:19:43 ◼   ► And I think that was sort of my conclusion

00:19:45 ◼   ► from when I covered SharePlay.

00:19:47 ◼   ► It's not for me and it's fine.

00:19:49 ◼   ► I understand why other people will love it.

00:19:51 ◼   ► I just don't wanna watch a whole thing on FaceTime.

00:19:55 ◼   ► Again, I would have two years ago, I wouldn't now,

00:19:58 ◼   ► But hey, if it works great for you, excellent.

00:20:02 ◼   ► We'll see.

00:20:03 ◼   ► - I wouldn't have two years ago.

00:20:05 ◼   ► It wasn't, you know, this isn't even just a pandemic thing

00:20:07 ◼   ► to me.

00:20:08 ◼   ► It's like, this is just not a way that I could imagine

00:20:11 ◼   ► wanting to consume content.

00:20:13 ◼   ► But I like that there are people that are using it.

00:20:16 ◼   ► 'Cause honestly, my assumption is I was gonna get

00:20:19 ◼   ► like one tweet throughout the whole week.

00:20:21 ◼   ► And I got a bunch.

00:20:22 ◼   ► And so I thought that was pretty great.

00:20:24 ◼   ► But it's still just not, I think Steven,

00:20:28 ◼   ► you obviously went on last week's episode.

00:20:30 ◼   ► Have you ever used SharePlay?

00:20:32 ◼   ► - I have not.

00:20:34 ◼   ► - No, okay.

00:20:35 ◼   ► - Maybe you and I can watch a movie together.

00:20:37 ◼   ► - I don't want to.

00:20:38 ◼   ► I don't want to do it.

00:20:41 ◼   ► I like the idea, right?

00:20:43 ◼   ► If you could do all of the stuff

00:20:46 ◼   ► without like the needing to be a,

00:20:49 ◼   ► like a persistent act of FaceTime call.

00:20:52 ◼   ► Like I like the idea of like shared experiences,

00:20:55 ◼   ► playing and pausing at the same time

00:20:56 ◼   ► and all that kind of stuff.

00:20:58 ◼   ► I would be just as happy with an iMessage thread that runs.

00:21:02 ◼   ► To me, the idea of me and Steven and Federico

00:21:06 ◼   ► were gonna watch a movie,

00:21:08 ◼   ► and for the whole time I'm watching a movie,

00:21:10 ◼   ► I can see what they're, I can see them?

00:21:13 ◼   ► Like that's odd to me.

00:21:15 ◼   ► That is weird.

00:21:17 ◼   ► I'm happy that people like it.

00:21:19 ◼   ► I mean, what it does feel like

00:21:21 ◼   ► from most of these situations is it does feel like

00:21:24 ◼   ► like an intimate experience, right?

00:21:27 ◼   ► that like, you know, like people tend to just use shareplay

00:21:29 ◼   ► with a loved one, like or their partner or whatever.

00:21:32 ◼   ► And like, that makes sense to me.

00:21:34 ◼   ► But even then, like if me and Adina watch a movie,

00:21:36 ◼   ► I don't look at her face for the entire movie.

00:21:38 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:21:39 ◼   ► It's just weird to have the face in front of me.

00:21:40 ◼   ► - That would be creepy.

00:21:42 ◼   ► That would be creepy, yeah.

00:21:44 ◼   ► You're watching a movie and just staring at her.

00:21:46 ◼   ► - Maybe I'm watching movies, Raul.

00:21:47 ◼   ► - Maybe you are.

00:21:49 ◼   ► - That is my shareplay.

00:21:50 ◼   ► - I wanted to touch on this really weird story

00:21:53 ◼   ► that was out at the end of last week,

00:21:55 ◼   ► where Porsche, their CEO, Oliver Bloom,

00:21:59 ◼   ► has this quote about discussing

00:22:02 ◼   ► exciting common projects with Apple.

00:22:05 ◼   ► What, what does this mean?

00:22:09 ◼   ► What are you talking about?

00:22:10 ◼   ► They are quote, "on the same wavelength,

00:22:13 ◼   ► and managers in Porsche traveled to the US

00:22:15 ◼   ► late last year to discuss joint projects with Apple."

00:22:18 ◼   ► Here's another quote.

00:22:19 ◼   ► "We already have Apple CarPlay.

00:22:20 ◼   ► We will expand on that."

00:22:22 ◼   ► - I mean, this feels pretty cut and dry to me.

00:22:24 ◼   ► - You think it's like the car keys stuff or whatever?

00:22:26 ◼   ► - It's car keys.

00:22:27 ◼   ► - Car keys.

00:22:29 ◼   ► - Like I think people see this,

00:22:31 ◼   ► a bunch of people in the Discord are telling me

00:22:32 ◼   ► FaceTime audio and SharePlay works together.

00:22:34 ◼   ► Fine, my point still remains.

00:22:36 ◼   ► I don't need no current active audio call,

00:22:38 ◼   ► let alone a video call.

00:22:39 ◼   ► - So now instead of seeing another person's face,

00:22:42 ◼   ► you can hear them breathing as you watch a movie.

00:22:44 ◼   ► - I don't need it.

00:22:45 ◼   ► I just don't need it.

00:22:46 ◼   ► Anyway, this is like one of those classic

00:22:48 ◼   ► a CEO got overexcited and said a thing,

00:22:51 ◼   ► and then everyone's like,

00:22:52 ◼   ► "Oh, this must mean Apple and Porsche

00:22:54 ◼   ► working on a car together which like I just don't it just doesn't marry up to

00:22:59 ◼   ► me when when Apple has an active project that not a lot of car companies are

00:23:06 ◼   ► involved in and could get more involved in which is the car keys thing that you

00:23:10 ◼   ► mentioned Steven you know like using your phone as your as your car key yeah

00:23:14 ◼   ► that's because you know if the expectation is that some point Apple

00:23:20 ◼   ► will want to make a car or have some kind of car project.

00:23:24 ◼   ► I don't imagine it's going to be with Porsche.

00:23:27 ◼   ► It's too high end, right?

00:23:30 ◼   ► Like, yes, Apple was a luxury brand or whatever,

00:23:32 ◼   ► but they will still want to make a car that people can buy

00:23:36 ◼   ► or whatever, you know, if they're ever going to do this.

00:23:40 ◼   ► I don't think Porsche is the right place for that.

00:23:42 ◼   ► Unless, I mean, I don't know Porsche's corporate structure.

00:23:44 ◼   ► I'll look at that in a minute.

00:23:45 ◼   ► Maybe they own one of the smaller car brands, but whatever.

00:23:48 ◼   ► And also like there are current reports suggesting

00:23:51 ◼   ► that the car team has been disbanded

00:23:53 ◼   ► currently again anyway.

00:23:55 ◼   ► - I think the car project just anytime anything gets close

00:23:59 ◼   ► to it, it makes news because it's such a weird story.

00:24:03 ◼   ► And that it has been seemingly from what we know

00:24:07 ◼   ► on and off again over the years.

00:24:10 ◼   ► And I think the most recent thing we heard

00:24:13 ◼   ► about its organization is that Kevin Lynch was in charge

00:24:15 ◼   ► of it and maybe he's doing another big reset or maybe it's really dead this time and that

00:24:21 ◼   ► was kind of his decision.

00:24:23 ◼   ► But it's just so unlike other things we hear about the company, I think that it makes the

00:24:30 ◼   ► news anytime anything is like remotely in its orbit.

00:24:35 ◼   ► Porsche is owned by Volkswagen so it makes even less sense.

00:24:39 ◼   ► Like Apple more likely works a Volkswagen than Porsche project to build a car.

00:24:44 ◼   ► Plus, Eddy Q's on the board of Ferrari.

00:24:46 ◼   ► - So, they're not gonna work with Ferrari

00:24:48 ◼   ► to make a car either, I can tell you that.

00:24:50 ◼   ► - No, no, but maybe he would be more willing

00:24:53 ◼   ► to work with a more normal car brand

00:24:55 ◼   ► than another supercar brand.

00:24:56 ◼   ► Anyways, I got big news for bootcamp users.

00:25:01 ◼   ► - Oh, wow, all those people.

00:25:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, Apple updates bootcamp

00:25:05 ◼   ► with studio display drivers for Windows users.

00:25:08 ◼   ► So, if you have an Apple studio display

00:25:12 ◼   ► and you use bootcamp, it apparently will work.

00:25:15 ◼   ► There's no center stage or spatial audio.

00:25:17 ◼   ► So bootcamp still exists.

00:25:20 ◼   ► For now. Okay, well, hold on.

00:25:21 ◼   ► What if, what if, what happens?

00:25:25 ◼   ► If you try to use a FaceTime video call

00:25:30 ◼   ► on Windows via bootcamp on the web,

00:25:36 ◼   ► because you can do FaceTime calls on the web.

00:25:38 ◼   ► Oh, you can on the web.

00:25:40 ◼   ► can on the web so in that case will center stage kick in? I don't think center

00:25:45 ◼   ► stage works on the web version of FaceTime. That's too bad. I put this in

00:25:49 ◼   ► here mainly because I want to talk about boot camp and how it's super dead it's

00:25:54 ◼   ► only on Intel Macs this 9 to 5 Mac article is worth noting that at least

00:25:58 ◼   ► for now boot camp remains available only for Macs with Intel processors. I don't

00:26:03 ◼   ► see Apple bringing this back even if Windows on ARM was a relevant thing

00:26:08 ◼   ► which it's really not at this point. There was also a story where someone was

00:26:15 ◼   ► working to get a studio display working on their PC and it required jumping

00:26:23 ◼   ► through all these hoops. I don't know who would buy this thing just expecting it

00:26:27 ◼   ► to work with their PC but apparently this person did and you have to like

00:26:34 ◼   ► jump through a Thunderbolt card and all sorts of stuff it's it's pretty wacky.

00:26:37 ◼   ► I could imagine someone wanting to be like, I have two computers, I want one monitor.

00:26:44 ◼   ► Will this one be able to suffice? You know what I mean? And so like, I think it would

00:26:49 ◼   ► be weird for somebody to buy this to use with their PC. But I could imagine someone who's

00:26:55 ◼   ► buying it to use with both their Mac and their PC, you know? So I guess it's good that it

00:27:00 ◼   ► it so okay it works well with boot camp right but does it work well with a PC then?

00:27:09 ◼   ► It's got to be a PC that supports Thunderbolt with not very many

00:27:18 ◼   ► this this Justin the guy here with this post end up using a PCIe Thunderbolt

00:27:24 ◼   ► expansion card and basically you run video from your GPU into this card and

00:27:30 ◼   ► then back out of this card via Thunderbolt. That worked. They do

00:27:35 ◼   ► recommend installing the boot camp drivers to make it work better and it is

00:27:40 ◼   ► still kind of broken. I would imagine that if boot camp wasn't a thing like

00:27:46 ◼   ► Apple wouldn't even bother with this at all but because boot camp is a

00:27:50 ◼   ► thing you can get these drivers and and run it but it's a bit of a mess and his

00:27:55 ◼   ► point is like it should be easier I don't but again I don't see why you

00:27:59 ◼   ► expected it to be maybe it should be but making it Thunderbolt based already

00:28:04 ◼   ► rules out a lot of the Windows world just kind of how it is no no it doesn't

00:28:09 ◼   ► make any sense to me like because you it can work you've just got to have

00:28:15 ◼   ► Thunderbolt on your motherboard, which is a thing.

00:28:19 ◼   ► So you can get PCs with Thunderbolt,

00:28:22 ◼   ► it's a thing you can do.

00:28:24 ◼   ► So you just don't buy a Thunderbolt display

00:28:28 ◼   ► if your PC doesn't have a Thunderbolt connection.

00:28:30 ◼   ► Like that doesn't seem like a complicated thing to me.

00:28:34 ◼   ► - It's just not as, you know,

00:28:36 ◼   ► if they'd use DisplayPort or something,

00:28:38 ◼   ► we wouldn't be having this conversation,

00:28:39 ◼   ► but that's not how Apple rolls.

00:28:41 ◼   ► - But why would they?

00:28:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, Thunderbolt is better

00:28:44 ◼   ► because it can do all of these things,

00:28:46 ◼   ► even if the trade-off is a lot of people don't have it.

00:28:50 ◼   ► - It would make no sense for me to Apple to be like,

00:28:52 ◼   ► we need to make sure that this display

00:28:54 ◼   ► is useful to the wider market.

00:28:57 ◼   ► Like, no, you can just go and buy like any display

00:28:59 ◼   ► from any company and use that one instead.

00:29:03 ◼   ► Like, I think this is one of those just like arguments

00:29:06 ◼   ► for the sake of having it,

00:29:08 ◼   ► as opposed to actually there being any logic to it.

00:29:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, I can get down with that.

00:29:13 ◼   ► Do you guys ever try bootcamp?

00:29:15 ◼   ► Yeah, I have some bootcamp memories from 10, 11 years ago,

00:29:21 ◼   ► 20, like, 2010 or 2011.

00:29:23 ◼   ► Basically, I remember playing some--

00:29:26 ◼   ► don't ask me why--

00:29:28 ◼   ► but some Fallout 3 on my old MacBook Pro via bootcamp.

00:29:34 ◼   ► And I remember that it ran horribly.

00:29:37 ◼   ► And at the time, I couldn't figure out

00:29:39 ◼   ► how to connect a gaming controller to my Mac.

00:29:42 ◼   ► And so I think I was playing with the Magic Mouse and keyboard, probably.

00:29:46 ◼   ► Like a true gamer.

00:29:47 ◼   ► Or the Magic Track.

00:29:48 ◼   ► [laughter]

00:29:49 ◼   ► Like a true gamer.

00:29:50 ◼   ► Like a true PC gamer.

00:29:53 ◼   ► But that was horrible.

00:29:54 ◼   ► So that was my bootcamp memory.

00:29:56 ◼   ► And I guess another bootcamp memory is getting it set up for friends who got a Mac,

00:30:03 ◼   ► but also needed to have like a Windows fallback for things like programs that they were using at the university at the time

00:30:10 ◼   ► that didn't have a Mac OS equivalent.

00:30:12 ◼   ► And again, in 2010, 2011, web apps like we have today

00:30:17 ◼   ► just were not a thing.

00:30:18 ◼   ► So if school or your job will give you a Windows application

00:30:26 ◼   ► that you could only use on Windows,

00:30:28 ◼   ► and if you didn't have a Windows machine,

00:30:29 ◼   ► you would be out of luck.

00:30:31 ◼   ► And so I remember setting up a boot camp on my friends' Mac

00:30:34 ◼   ► books.

00:30:36 ◼   ► But that was that.

00:30:38 ◼   ► I used it for like two days with Fallout 3 and I remember that it was just terrible,

00:30:45 ◼   ► terrible performance.

00:30:47 ◼   ► I never did it. I know I looked into it and I think just the complicated nature of it

00:30:53 ◼   ► all just I didn't bother with it because I had no real need for it. It was more like

00:30:58 ◼   ► a curiosity than anything else. I'm sure you did, Steven. I'm just like, "Gee, even just

00:31:03 ◼   ► for the fun of it, right?"

00:31:04 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean I did it back like a long time ago when I was consulting full-time because I would need Windows

00:31:10 ◼   ► For some things and it was easier to carry one laptop than two

00:31:14 ◼   ► But I also did the trick where you could use I think Parallels and Fusion both have this

00:31:19 ◼   ► I forget which one I was using at the time

00:31:21 ◼   ► Where it could boot your boot camp partition as a virtual machine

00:31:26 ◼   ► So you could run it as a VM or fully boot it into boot camp

00:31:31 ◼   ► But like I forgot that that's that's cool. That's cool that it could do that. This was like Windows Vista

00:31:37 ◼   ► Windows I don't think it was Windows 7 yet. This was a long time ago

00:31:41 ◼   ► But and you know, I know people use it for games and stuff

00:31:44 ◼   ► but I would imagine the percentage of Mac users who ever used boot camp has to be pretty small or

00:31:50 ◼   ► Used it for more than a week because it is kind of annoying that it's fully separate and

00:31:57 ◼   ► Having yeah something in a VM where like you can still use your Mac app side by side like that's pretty nice

00:32:02 ◼   ► I think I stopped at the part where it's like you have to make a partition and I just don't think that I had enough

00:32:08 ◼   ► storage space to like

00:32:10 ◼   ► Because I know that I know I would have done all of this on my first iMac

00:32:13 ◼   ► Right because that was when I was most like tinkery because I was like learning it all and stuff

00:32:18 ◼   ► and I

00:32:21 ◼   ► Just know that like I would have got the base one, right?

00:32:24 ◼   ► So it would have had whatever the base storage was and the idea of like

00:32:28 ◼   ► Partitioning the hard drive for something. I wasn't sure if was actually gonna be a thing that I cared about for more than a week

00:32:34 ◼   ► I think that was where I ended up bailing out on it. Yeah, I remember in the early days there were people

00:32:40 ◼   ► Like trying to get windows running on those Intel Macs because boot camp wasn't there on day one

00:32:48 ◼   ► Like I remember reading these blog posts of people like figuring out how to run out those like white plastic

00:32:52 ◼   ► iMacs like you had you know doing all this wild firmware stuff and then

00:32:56 ◼   ► eventually Apple just had a solution for people. Did they say they would or did it

00:33:04 ◼   ► just appear one day? Like I don't remember when they announced the Intel

00:33:07 ◼   ► iMac did they say that there was boot camp like a thing that they announced? I

00:33:12 ◼   ► don't think it was but I could be wrong. Can I ask you a semi-unrelated question?

00:33:20 ◼   ► Have you been on Twitter these past few days?

00:33:23 ◼   ► A little bit.

00:33:25 ◼   ► That's not a question.

00:33:26 ◼   ► But I wanted to check, because like, have you seen, you mentioned VMs.

00:33:29 ◼   ► Have you seen what Steve Transmith has been tweeting about VMware and macOS?

00:33:34 ◼   ► Can you tell me what that is about?

00:33:37 ◼   ► Is he running them all on a Raspberry Pi or some other machine or something?

00:33:40 ◼   ► I think so.

00:33:42 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:33:44 ◼   ► So but what is that anyway?

00:33:45 ◼   ► So you can virtualize the latest version of macOS now?

00:33:49 ◼   ► I guess so.

00:33:50 ◼   ► - Interesting.

00:33:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, oh, no, he's running it on the Intel NUC.

00:33:54 ◼   ► - Okay, huh.

00:33:56 ◼   ► - I'll put a link in the show notes

00:34:01 ◼   ► and in Discord of his thread, so you can see that.

00:34:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's ESXC, what's the name?

00:34:09 ◼   ► ESXi, ES.

00:34:12 ◼   ► - Yes, that's it.

00:34:13 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:34:16 ◼   ► - That one, so that one.

00:34:17 ◼   ► So you can virtualize my,

00:34:18 ◼   ► Why would you virtualize Mac OS?

00:34:20 ◼   ► Well, I guess why would you virtualize Mac OS?

00:34:22 ◼   ► - 'Cause you wanna run Tiger.

00:34:23 ◼   ► - To try Mac OS things?

00:34:25 ◼   ► - 'Cause you wanna have a cool tweet thread.

00:34:28 ◼   ► - Steven, why don't you also do this

00:34:30 ◼   ► and like virtualize all the versions of Mac OS?

00:34:32 ◼   ► - I have a bunch of them set up.

00:34:35 ◼   ► What happens to them when I switch

00:34:37 ◼   ► to an Apple Silicon machine?

00:34:38 ◼   ► I'm not sure.

00:34:39 ◼   ► - I don't know, it kind of feels to me like

00:34:41 ◼   ► there is a project in here for you

00:34:44 ◼   ► to do like one specific thing

00:34:46 ◼   ► on all the versions of macOS that you have around,

00:34:50 ◼   ► whether they're running on, like, I don't know,

00:34:52 ◼   ► maybe this sounds silly, but like the same text document

00:34:56 ◼   ► as seen on all the possible versions of macOS.

00:35:00 ◼   ► - Well, you've done that.

00:35:00 ◼   ► That's the screenshot library, right?

00:35:02 ◼   ► - That's the sort of, yeah, but it would be cool

00:35:05 ◼   ► to see it in action on like an actual machine or a VM.

00:35:09 ◼   ► - Oh. - You know?

00:35:10 ◼   ► Not just a screenshot, but like the whole, yeah.

00:35:14 ◼   ► You know the screenshot library was all taken on real hardware.

00:35:18 ◼   ► None of that was virtualized.

00:35:19 ◼   ► Nice.

00:35:20 ◼   ► It took forever.

00:35:21 ◼   ► Such a hipster, man.

00:35:23 ◼   ► I like my bits running on authentic G4s.

00:35:27 ◼   ► I need a pixel accurate resolution.

00:35:30 ◼   ► Pixel perfect untouched screenshot

00:35:35 ◼   ► as the engineers intended.

00:35:38 ◼   ► Steven wanted to wait the amount of time

00:35:40 ◼   ► it would take to load everything,

00:35:41 ◼   ► not have it load more quickly

00:35:42 ◼   ► because it was on modern hardware.

00:35:44 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:35:44 ◼   ► Uh, my lion screenshots were originally not retina.

00:35:48 ◼   ► And I didn't have a retina machine that would run lion for a long time.

00:35:52 ◼   ► And then I did, and I remade those and re uploaded them because lion was the, the,

00:35:58 ◼   ► oh, the first iOS that shipped like with that 2012 Mac, but pro that first run

00:36:05 ◼   ► on machine back to the Mac, that was, that was the event before that.

00:36:09 ◼   ► but in that era.

00:36:11 ◼   ► - With Craig Federighi's hands shaking as he's-

00:36:14 ◼   ► - He was demoing line then yes.

00:36:16 ◼   ► The MacBook Pro I think had been announced before that,

00:36:18 ◼   ► but yeah, he was nervous.

00:36:19 ◼   ► They gave him good stuff now.

00:36:21 ◼   ► - No, no, no, no.

00:36:24 ◼   ► You can't just say something like that

00:36:26 ◼   ► and then we will move on from it.

00:36:27 ◼   ► - Hey, maybe it's like a ginger tea or something, you know?

00:36:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, he's just having a little tea.

00:36:33 ◼   ► What I imagine it is,

00:36:34 ◼   ► is he's had lots and lots of coaching on presentations

00:36:37 ◼   ► and he's way better than he used to be.

00:36:39 ◼   ► Yes, if you really if you really want to have like a good time go watch the

00:36:44 ◼   ► introduction of the X serve because a very young Tim Cook comes out to talk about enterprise customer support and

00:36:51 ◼   ► It is the driest thing you've ever seen. It's so bad

00:36:54 ◼   ► This is new to me - can I just search for YouTube?

00:36:59 ◼   ► X serve

00:37:02 ◼   ► introduction. It was like 2001 or 2002 or something. 2002.

00:37:07 ◼   ► Steve Jobs introduces Xserve 2002. Is this one of those things where like Tim

00:37:13 ◼   ► and Johnny and Steve were all sitting together on stalls and talking? Is it like one of those

00:37:17 ◼   ► kinds of presentations? It looks like one of those.

00:37:20 ◼   ► Yeah, it's Phil and Steve and Tim at the end. They're answering press questions.

00:37:26 ◼   ► Because I know Tim was there for the iPhone 4 thing as well, I think.

00:37:29 ◼   ► Yeah. If memory serves. Like another one of these

00:37:31 ◼   ► kinds of things used to show up in these. But if you scrub around like find a Tim Cook section

00:37:36 ◼   ► and it's pretty unexciting. Wow it's very young also. His hair's like really brown here I've just

00:37:44 ◼   ► never really considered him as having hair color. I feel like it's kind of gray on top maybe, maybe

00:37:49 ◼   ► it's just the lighting. He looks so young here wow! Yeah. Wow he's not wearing glasses yet,

00:37:56 ◼   ► He likes to wear a watch though, we know that much.

00:37:58 ◼   ► - He's a young man.

00:37:59 ◼   ► - Wow, that's amazing.

00:38:01 ◼   ► - Famous people age too, you know?

00:38:06 ◼   ► Like I don't think, yeah I think about these things.

00:38:09 ◼   ► Like famous people, like celebrities,

00:38:11 ◼   ► they also do normal things.

00:38:12 ◼   ► - And now Tim Cook's jacked.

00:38:14 ◼   ► He wasn't jacked on this video.

00:38:15 ◼   ► - No, I just unmuted a section and got to like

00:38:18 ◼   ► a little Tim Cook comedy routine part.

00:38:21 ◼   ► You call the software company, and what do they say?

00:38:24 ◼   ► Go to the hardware company.

00:38:25 ◼   ► the hardware company what do they say and it's like all right i'm done with tim cooke's comedy here

00:38:29 ◼   ► i'm fine thank you yeah to explain to me what customer support is like tim this is before

00:38:34 ◼   ► maybe this is like that's like he's that's his origin story for customer satisfaction

00:38:39 ◼   ► it's like none of these customers are satisfied and i'm not happy about it that's right change

00:38:42 ◼   ► it today maybe he'll bring back the x-serve i thought federico was going to ask stephen

00:38:46 ◼   ► a different question and i actually do want both of your opinions on this okay it seems to be that

00:38:52 ◼   ► everyone's really upset that you can't remove the power cable from the back of

00:38:59 ◼   ► the studio display. An interesting thing to be upset about for sure. Everyone's

00:39:04 ◼   ► really upset about this. I'm upset about it. Okay tell me why. I want to know why

00:39:09 ◼   ► you're upset about it because I don't know why I... I know okay I know why

00:39:14 ◼   ► realistically people would say that you could be upset about it. Yeah. But me Myke

00:39:19 ◼   ► Hurley has never run into a situation where this has been a problem for me so

00:39:22 ◼   ► So I would like you to explain what I haven't either like I've never damaged a power cable on anything

00:39:27 ◼   ► I don't think but in a 1600 our display

00:39:31 ◼   ► the power cables should be

00:39:34 ◼   ► Removable if it's damaged or if you need a longer one or a shorter one if it's like a if it's a standard power connector

00:39:40 ◼   ► So there's like the repairability angle, but it isn't a standard power connector, right? Like that's the point

00:39:45 ◼   ► Well, I don't know because it's stuck in there point. That's a good point though. Like if people have removed it

00:39:51 ◼   ► You can yank it out. I saw a gif of Linus doing it, but yeah

00:39:55 ◼   ► It's also from the company that made a magnetic charger for the iMac.

00:40:00 ◼   ► Yeah, that's weird. It's weird that they didn't bring it over to here

00:40:02 ◼   ► I guess it's a cost thing

00:40:04 ◼   ► But like that is the part where I'm like

00:40:05 ◼   ► I don't know why they spent all that time and effort on the iMac one if

00:40:10 ◼   ► They're only gonna use it on this one machine. I don't know but at the same time

00:40:14 ◼   ► It's like this is just one of those things where I think it's being blown out of proportion a little bit

00:40:20 ◼   ► For like the actual care that people have over it, you know

00:40:23 ◼   ► I have no doubt that I'm gonna now hear from everyone who cares about this, but like I just say like

00:40:29 ◼   ► If I do something and break the kid like the cables broken

00:40:33 ◼   ► I'll just take it to the Apple Store and pay for a new one

00:40:35 ◼   ► I don't know

00:40:36 ◼   ► You know what?

00:40:36 ◼   ► I mean like I but all I know is I've never had to do this ever in my whole life and I'm sure the power cable

00:40:42 ◼   ► will be under the

00:40:44 ◼   ► You know any accidental damage clause or Apple care or whatever?

00:40:47 ◼   ► And I'm sure if it's not they'll have just a because it is removable

00:40:50 ◼   ► They have a special tool to do it like go look at the 9 to 5 Mac link in the show notes

00:40:54 ◼   ► It's hilarious the tool that they're using to like pull the cable out. What is that?

00:40:59 ◼   ► It just it just gives more more force so you can pop it right out

00:41:03 ◼   ► It's just it's just like something that makes it needlessly complicated. Like if we're just a standard power cable

00:41:10 ◼   ► It's just simpler for everybody. I agree with Apple doesn't have to go around fixing them. It's picking off cables and stuff

00:41:17 ◼   ► What happened to the self-repair store that they announced months ago?

00:41:23 ◼   ► I think I asked someone about this recently, like, similar to you. I don't remember where it was.

00:41:28 ◼   ► I think we talked about an upgrade when I was on, maybe?

00:41:31 ◼   ► Maybe, yeah. And basically, the thought that I ended up coming to is, they announced it, so they did it before the right to repair legislation.

00:41:40 ◼   ► And it's like, it will happen. It was supposed to be early 2020.

00:41:44 ◼   ► We didn't say when.

00:41:46 ◼   ► I think they said early next year. I think early has passed at this point, but nothing has happened.

00:41:53 ◼   ► Yeah, not yet.

00:41:54 ◼   ► Because I still got that screen I want to replace, you know?

00:41:57 ◼   ► Well, how early is... early, you know? Isn't that the title of the of us mates album also?

00:42:07 ◼   ► No, that's how soon is now.

00:42:08 ◼   ► I saw your phone screen when you hear Myke, it's real bad.

00:42:11 ◼   ► It's terrible. Not cracked though, you know?

00:42:15 ◼   ► It is cracked. It is 100% cracked.

00:42:16 ◼   ► No, Apple says not cracked, so no.

00:42:19 ◼   ► So you've seen it in person, Steven.

00:42:21 ◼   ► Yeah, I ran my finger over it and was sad.

00:42:25 ◼   ► Did you cut yourself in doing that?

00:42:26 ◼   ► Is it that bad?

00:42:28 ◼   ► Almost.

00:42:29 ◼   ► It's not that bad.

00:42:29 ◼   ► You can feel the deep scratches, not cracks.

00:42:33 ◼   ► You can feel the glass?

00:42:35 ◼   ► Oh, God, okay.

00:42:37 ◼   ► No, it's fine though.

00:42:38 ◼   ► Definitely not accidental damage replacement worthy.

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00:44:03 ◼   ► with hover our thanks to hover for their support of the show and relay FM

00:44:07 ◼   ► Mac studio time

00:44:10 ◼   ► You go in no, no going yet. Not yet. Not yet, but I'm excited about it soon soon, but not yet

00:44:19 ◼   ► I'm sure people have seen MK Beach's video. We'll have a link in the notes

00:44:24 ◼   ► his takeaways the m1 ultra is

00:44:28 ◼   ► Not as fast as his 28 core Intel Mac Pro and absolutely everything and some things it totally is or even faster

00:44:34 ◼   ► But also that machine is like tens of thousands of dollars and is the highest in Intel Mac ever made

00:44:40 ◼   ► So against my 12 core Mac Pro it's going the m1 max is gonna beat it and almost everything

00:44:45 ◼   ► I think I'm worried about is the fan and so

00:44:49 ◼   ► In his video it's mentioned and Jason talked about it someone upgrade and I think in his review

00:44:56 ◼   ► that you can hear the

00:44:59 ◼   ► Mac studio all the time and I had kind of assumed that

00:45:04 ◼   ► Because I was getting the m1 max and not the ultra like one reason I did that was

00:45:09 ◼   ► It should be silent because the chassis built for both and yes, the heatsink is different between the two

00:45:14 ◼   ► but I expected not to hear any fan noise and

00:45:18 ◼   ► It seems like that may not be the case now

00:45:22 ◼   ► Now Jason says it's not a big deal and it may not be, but I'm just curious about how

00:45:26 ◼   ► that's going to play out for me.

00:45:28 ◼   ► I don't understand why there is a persistent fanspin, it doesn't make sense to me, in the

00:45:36 ◼   ► Macs version.

00:45:39 ◼   ► Because my MacBook Pro doesn't do it.

00:45:43 ◼   ► Yeah that's the thing that's really the most interesting, this is the same chip and a laptop

00:45:49 ◼   ► will be silent until it's really under load. And I expect like any machine I've had, except

00:45:54 ◼   ► for my Mac Pro, if I put it under load, I'm going to hear it right. I could hear the iMac

00:45:59 ◼   ► Pro on occasion. I've never heard the Mac Pro ever. And now it's basically like level

00:46:05 ◼   ► with my head where it sits at the end of my desk. But at idle, I really expected this

00:46:11 ◼   ► thing to be completely silent. And maybe there'll be maybe it's not a big deal. I don't expect

00:46:18 ◼   ► to be loud enough that like my microphone would hear it.

00:46:20 ◼   ► But if I'm in here and it's quiet and I hear it,

00:46:24 ◼   ► that may be annoying.

00:46:25 ◼   ► 'Cause this thing is going to sit on the desk,

00:46:27 ◼   ► it'll be behind my display.

00:46:29 ◼   ► Pretty close, right?

00:46:30 ◼   ► And in a machine that's clearly the expectation,

00:46:34 ◼   ► like in all of Apple's press stuff in the Apple Store,

00:46:37 ◼   ► so I went to go see this in the Apple Store the other day,

00:46:39 ◼   ► it's just right there, like next,

00:46:41 ◼   ► like right under the display,

00:46:42 ◼   ► kind of above where your mouse or track pad would be.

00:46:45 ◼   ► And to have something that close to you

00:46:47 ◼   ► and it make noise all the time,

00:46:49 ◼   ► like that could be frustrating

00:46:50 ◼   ► if you're sensitive to that sort of thing.

00:46:53 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:46:54 ◼   ► - So a couple of questions.

00:46:55 ◼   ► One is from Zack.

00:46:56 ◼   ► Does your Mac Pro not make noise all the time?

00:46:59 ◼   ► - I cannot, the fans always spin.

00:47:01 ◼   ► They are inaudible at their resting rate.

00:47:04 ◼   ► - So I guess they're big, right?

00:47:05 ◼   ► They're so big that I guess they can spin

00:47:08 ◼   ► and they can spin more quietly and move the air through.

00:47:10 ◼   ► - They're not spinning real fast.

00:47:11 ◼   ► - Okay, my second question.

00:47:14 ◼   ► You don't have to have it that close though, right?

00:47:16 ◼   ► Like you could put that where you have your current Mac Pro

00:47:19 ◼   ► if you just got a cable long enough, right?

00:47:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I have a long Thunderbolt cable

00:47:23 ◼   ► that the studio display or the Mac studio

00:47:27 ◼   ► and the pro display will be plugged into each other.

00:47:29 ◼   ► So I could have it further away if it's an issue.

00:47:32 ◼   ► We'll see, as I get into it,

00:47:34 ◼   ► I'm gonna talk about kind of my setup situation in a minute.

00:47:37 ◼   ► I have a lot of other stuff to contend with on my desk now

00:47:40 ◼   ► and it's not all quite dialed in where it's gonna go.

00:47:44 ◼   ► But I just found it interesting

00:47:45 ◼   ► that Apple clearly designed this for better or for worse

00:47:48 ◼   ► to be out in the open on the desk.

00:47:50 ◼   ► And like in the Apple store, could not hear it,

00:47:53 ◼   ► but you know, people are milling about,

00:47:54 ◼   ► there's like background music and stuff.

00:47:56 ◼   ► So I'd imagine that if you're in an office environment

00:48:00 ◼   ► or like a studio with other people, it may be different.

00:48:03 ◼   ► But if you're like me and you work in a building

00:48:05 ◼   ► by yourself all day, every day,

00:48:07 ◼   ► maybe it'd be a little noticeable.

00:48:09 ◼   ► I'm definitely gonna follow up on that.

00:48:11 ◼   ► - Maybe it's like you can hear it,

00:48:13 ◼   ► but you don't notice it if that makes sense, right?

00:48:15 ◼   ► 'Cause there's something wrong.

00:48:16 ◼   ► It's just intriguing to me, right?

00:48:18 ◼   ► 'Cause obviously they built it this way

00:48:19 ◼   ► because of the ultra and it needing, I guess,

00:48:24 ◼   ► more constant airflow 'cause of the amount of power

00:48:28 ◼   ► it's drawing and stuff.

00:48:29 ◼   ► But it's just intriguing to me that like,

00:48:32 ◼   ► it works exactly the same with a chip that doesn't need it.

00:48:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, like I would expect the firmware on the two

00:48:39 ◼   ► to act differently with the fans.

00:48:41 ◼   ► - And like, and the reason I say this, right?

00:48:42 ◼   ► because I set it on upgrade 2 right it's just just a reiteration I have a MacBook Pro and it has an

00:48:47 ◼   ► M1 Max in it and I don't hear the fan like there is no consistent fan noise from my laptop like all

00:48:56 ◼   ► the time this is not a thing so this chip doesn't need it same as like there are some M1 Max that

00:49:02 ◼   ► have fans in them and some that don't but they still have the same amount of performance but

00:49:06 ◼   ► for whatever reason I guess it's like so they can run at high speed longer I guess.

00:49:11 ◼   ► There are fans in my MacBook Pro they'll come on when it's needed.

00:49:15 ◼   ► Just the idea of there being like if you just open Safari and got two tabs open the fans go

00:49:22 ◼   ► and it's like I don't know if you need to do this. It's an intriguing thing where it's like

00:49:26 ◼   ► clearly the system works that way because they have put so many fans in it to deal with the

00:49:32 ◼   ► really heavy chip and again it's like they're building these machines now the

00:49:37 ◼   ► chassis for like they're gonna be around for like five years yeah ten years right

00:49:41 ◼   ► so like they know their roadmap over the next few years and they know we need

00:49:45 ◼   ► headroom right this is where they've gotten themselves stuck in the past

00:49:49 ◼   ► right like headroom is something they need yeah there's no thermal corner

00:49:52 ◼   ► here hopefully so they know that like they're gonna have a chip in a few years

00:49:55 ◼   ► it's three times more powerful for let's just say just pick a number out of the

00:49:59 ◼   ► than the current M1 Ultra. So you've got to have the headroom on it. But it is still intriguing

00:50:05 ◼   ► to me of like, why does the fan need to move constantly? I just, it's an intriguing decision.

00:50:14 ◼   ► It wouldn't turn me off it by the way. Like if I had ordered one of these things, because

00:50:18 ◼   ► I don't care about this kind of stuff. Like, there are always noises like in my studio,

00:50:24 ◼   ► right? Like I can always hear a noise of some description. Like I have a fridge in the studio,

00:50:28 ◼   ► a small one but that always makes a sound right because it's a fridge it doesn't bother

00:50:32 ◼   ► me at all like I'm not one of these types of nerds are you one of these types of nerds

00:50:38 ◼   ► Stephen like this is no criticism to you but like are you a like can't deal with a fan

00:50:43 ◼   ► kind of nerd?

00:50:44 ◼   ► I don't know I mean like like right now the heat is in my running in my office it's extremely

00:50:52 ◼   ► quiet I can hear it if I think about it right so we'll see I'm not worried about it I can't

00:50:58 ◼   ► I'm just curious to how it plays out.

00:51:01 ◼   ► Anyways, there was also a lot of ink spilled

00:51:05 ◼   ► about the SSD modules.

00:51:08 ◼   ► - This has been like four separate news cycles.

00:51:12 ◼   ► - I know.

00:51:13 ◼   ► So there was a YouTube video

00:51:16 ◼   ► and then a bunch of articles about it.

00:51:18 ◼   ► Someone took a part of Mac Studio and said,

00:51:20 ◼   ► "Oh my gosh, there's additional slots in here

00:51:23 ◼   ► "for SSD modules.

00:51:24 ◼   ► "The way the storage works on this machine

00:51:26 ◼   ► is like it works in my Mac Pro, where there are slots and you have the modules that clip

00:51:32 ◼   ► into them. Now all of the controllers and all like the brains are on package like on

00:51:40 ◼   ► the system on the chip or in my Mac Pro in the T2, where the SSDs are really just storage

00:51:45 ◼   ► pools, right? The modules aren't. They're not like an SSD you may buy from Samsung and

00:51:51 ◼   ► like put in a case, right?

00:51:54 ◼   ► It's just a component.

00:51:55 ◼   ► Apple says there's nothing user upgradeable

00:51:58 ◼   ► inside the Mac Studio.

00:51:59 ◼   ► If you watch this video, you have to take the thing

00:52:01 ◼   ► pretty far apart before you even get to these.

00:52:04 ◼   ► Some people thought, oh, hey, this is great.

00:52:06 ◼   ► I could buy one and add additional storage later.

00:52:09 ◼   ► Maybe someone like Mac sales or other companies

00:52:12 ◼   ► would make modules that would fit into this.

00:52:15 ◼   ► Or maybe it'll be like what Apple does

00:52:18 ◼   ► with the iMac Pro RAM upgrade programs.

00:52:21 ◼   ► Some people have probably forgotten about this.

00:52:22 ◼   ► I had until I was putting this together

00:52:24 ◼   ► where if you have an iMac Pro

00:52:26 ◼   ► and you want more RAM, put it in it, that RAM is slotted.

00:52:28 ◼   ► You can just put more RAM in it,

00:52:30 ◼   ► but it's inside the machine

00:52:32 ◼   ► and you can take it to Apple and they'll charge you

00:52:36 ◼   ► and they take it apart and put more memory in it for you.

00:52:39 ◼   ► So lots of questions about what this means,

00:52:41 ◼   ► what these slots could do, why they are there.

00:52:45 ◼   ► And this ended up breaking in the news

00:52:49 ◼   ► like a few days later.

00:52:49 ◼   ► I was on vacation, so I wrote a little bit about it,

00:52:52 ◼   ► but over the weekend, I was talking to some people,

00:52:55 ◼   ► we all kind of came to the agreement that our guess is

00:52:58 ◼   ► that all Mac CDOs have the number of slots required

00:53:02 ◼   ► for the eight terabyte model,

00:53:05 ◼   ► and maybe the four terabyte model as well,

00:53:07 ◼   ► where they need additional slots

00:53:09 ◼   ► because the form factor of module

00:53:12 ◼   ► that Apple is using is small.

00:53:15 ◼   ► There was a YouTube video where someone tried taking

00:53:18 ◼   ► a Mac Pro SSD module and putting in the Mac Studio

00:53:22 ◼   ► and it won't fit.

00:53:23 ◼   ► It's like physically a smaller component.

00:53:26 ◼   ► And so they need these additional slots populated

00:53:31 ◼   ► for the higher end SKUs

00:53:33 ◼   ► and they don't wanna build two versions of the logic board.

00:53:35 ◼   ► So some Mac studios just come with these empty slots, right?

00:53:40 ◼   ► It makes sense, right?

00:53:43 ◼   ► It's an efficient way of doing this

00:53:45 ◼   ► from Apple's perspective

00:53:46 ◼   ► of building a bunch of these things.

00:53:48 ◼   ► But then someone took apart two Mac studios

00:53:50 ◼   ► and put the modules from both of them into one machine.

00:53:55 ◼   ► - I'll show you.

00:53:56 ◼   ► - You won't let me upgrade.

00:54:00 ◼   ► I'll just buy a second computer

00:54:02 ◼   ► and steal the storage out of it.

00:54:03 ◼   ► What an efficient and economical way of doing this.

00:54:08 ◼   ► That machine refused to boot, freaked out.

00:54:10 ◼   ► Because just like on the T2, like in my Mac Pro,

00:54:15 ◼   ► that I'm looking at now, lovingly,

00:54:17 ◼   ► or like the last 27-inch iMac and some other machines,

00:54:22 ◼   ► the SSDs are tied to the system

00:54:28 ◼   ► and they're encrypted by that T2 chip.

00:54:31 ◼   ► And in the Apple Silicon world,

00:54:33 ◼   ► a very similar process takes place

00:54:35 ◼   ► where the storage seems to be married to the logic board.

00:54:42 ◼   ► In fact, when I upgraded the SSDs in my Mac Pro,

00:54:47 ◼   ► I think I had it with, I forget what I ordered it with,

00:54:49 ◼   ► maybe two terabytes of internal storage

00:54:51 ◼   ► and upgraded to eight with Apple's parts.

00:54:54 ◼   ► I had to put the machine in DFU mode

00:54:57 ◼   ► and hook it up to another Mac and use Apple Configurator

00:55:00 ◼   ► to like re-blast the drives.

00:55:02 ◼   ► And let me tell y'all,

00:55:04 ◼   ► is maybe the scariest thing I've ever done with a computer.

00:55:07 ◼   ► This is like, if this doesn't work,

00:55:09 ◼   ► or if the power goes out or anything goes wrong,

00:55:12 ◼   ► My Mac Pro is in trouble and is gonna need to repair.

00:55:15 ◼   ► Now, it's not saying Apple couldn't change this

00:55:17 ◼   ► in the future, maybe in the future they'll have a program,

00:55:19 ◼   ► maybe in the future Apple can figure it'd be updated

00:55:21 ◼   ► to support this, but sort of the excitement people had

00:55:25 ◼   ► of oh my gosh, there's slots in here,

00:55:26 ◼   ► I can just add more storage, that's just not the way this is.

00:55:30 ◼   ► And in the Apple Silicon era, it's really unclear

00:55:34 ◼   ► what this will look like because so far,

00:55:36 ◼   ► we've not had any Apple Silicon machines

00:55:38 ◼   ► where this is possible, right?

00:55:39 ◼   ► on all the M1 machines and the MacBook Pros,

00:55:44 ◼   ► the storage isn't slotted like this, right?

00:55:47 ◼   ► This is the first time we've seen this

00:55:49 ◼   ► and so it's a little bit of an unknown,

00:55:52 ◼   ► but definitely like very interesting to follow this

00:55:54 ◼   ► as people were kind of working on it

00:55:55 ◼   ► and discovering things over the week.

00:55:58 ◼   ► - I think it's pretty fair to say

00:56:00 ◼   ► that this is still not a device

00:56:02 ◼   ► that Apple I believe will ever intend to be user serviceable.

00:56:06 ◼   ► Like maybe you'll be able to take it

00:56:08 ◼   ► to an Apple store one day

00:56:09 ◼   ► and get more SSD put in it?

00:56:12 ◼   ► - I think at best that's what this is.

00:56:14 ◼   ► I don't think it would ever be something

00:56:17 ◼   ► that you would like crack open

00:56:18 ◼   ► and put drives in that you bought yourself.

00:56:21 ◼   ► - It's like in the same way that it has been said

00:56:24 ◼   ► that you can take a studio display

00:56:26 ◼   ► and have them change your mounting mechanism.

00:56:27 ◼   ► Like, you know, it's like, you can't do it,

00:56:30 ◼   ► but Apple can do it.

00:56:32 ◼   ► But this is all leading up to the inevitable of,

00:56:35 ◼   ► well, what about the Mac?

00:56:36 ◼   ► like will the Mac Pro be able to do the things the current one can do?

00:56:41 ◼   ► Like this is the question, right?

00:56:43 ◼   ► Because it's, as you say, not an easy process, what you did,

00:56:47 ◼   ► but you are allowed to do it.

00:56:49 ◼   ► Right.

00:56:49 ◼   ► You, Steven Hackett, can go to Apple's website and buy some parts

00:56:53 ◼   ► and open it up and check a bunch of boxes and say, yes, yes, yes,

00:56:58 ◼   ► I definitely know what I'm doing and Apple's not going to take any--

00:57:02 ◼   ► like I'm breaking my warranty or whatever it is you're saying.

00:57:06 ◼   ► you know, by doing this, but you are allowed to do it.

00:57:09 ◼   ► And that's going to be the question, right?

00:57:11 ◼   ► Will that still be the case with 2022 Mac Pro

00:57:14 ◼   ► or whatever it's going to be?

00:57:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, who knows, right?

00:57:17 ◼   ► We just don't know.

00:57:19 ◼   ► Also the M1 Ultra chip is humongous.

00:57:21 ◼   ► If you watch this video, the thing is huge.

00:57:25 ◼   ► - It looks like a Threadripper.

00:57:26 ◼   ► - It does.

00:57:27 ◼   ► That's exactly what I thought.

00:57:28 ◼   ► It looks like a Threadripper.

00:57:29 ◼   ► Federico, are you excited about the possibility

00:57:32 ◼   ► of Mac Studio SSD upgrades?

00:57:34 ◼   ► - Well, I was thinking, I was thinking about this

00:57:36 ◼   ► just a few minutes ago.

00:57:37 ◼   ► And no, I'm not.

00:57:40 ◼   ► - I'm happy to report, don't care.

00:57:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, I mean,

00:57:45 ◼   ► I, look, seriously, I understand why,

00:57:52 ◼   ► especially because they presented it as a modular computer,

00:57:57 ◼   ► a modular machine, but that's not sort of the modularity

00:58:00 ◼   ► that they had in mind.

00:58:02 ◼   ► - Well, so here's the thing,

00:58:03 ◼   ► I put this on a Slack the other day.

00:58:05 ◼   ► Modular equals outside, expandable equals inside.

00:58:10 ◼   ► So I think when Apple says modular,

00:58:12 ◼   ► they mean you can hook any display up to it.

00:58:15 ◼   ► - So you know, when you say that, I know what you're saying.

00:58:18 ◼   ► To me, those words should be reversed though,

00:58:20 ◼   ► to make more sense, like to way that my brain works.

00:58:24 ◼   ► - I don't actually disagree with you all.

00:58:26 ◼   ► I just, I'm saying that's what a how Apple views it,

00:58:27 ◼   ► I think.

00:58:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:58:29 ◼   ► I know you mean like that's,

00:58:30 ◼   ► you're kind of reading what you think they're saying.

00:58:33 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:58:34 ◼   ► But my brain says it should be the other way around,

00:58:37 ◼   ► but I hope that Apple at least do consider

00:58:39 ◼   ► those two things to be different,

00:58:41 ◼   ► and then that's how they explain it.

00:58:43 ◼   ► - So yeah, I understand why people are, you know,

00:58:46 ◼   ► annoyed that this is not possible.

00:58:49 ◼   ► I still think, I don't know, maybe eventually,

00:58:52 ◼   ► and if it's controlled in software,

00:58:54 ◼   ► and if there's enough demand for it,

00:58:57 ◼   ► I wouldn't be shocking if they open it up eventually.

00:59:00 ◼   ► But also, I understand what Apple is saying,

00:59:03 ◼   ► Like, yeah, you get this box, very powerful.

00:59:05 ◼   ► Then if you wanna expand it,

00:59:08 ◼   ► you buy more external SSDs or whatever,

00:59:11 ◼   ► and you use Thunderbolt and it's fast enough.

00:59:13 ◼   ► So I get it, but maybe it's time to move on

00:59:17 ◼   ► from the idea of expandable anything.

00:59:20 ◼   ► So you pick the RAM, you pick the storage, that's it.

00:59:24 ◼   ► And enjoy this powerful and pricey computer.

00:59:27 ◼   ► - So I wanna walk y'all through

00:59:29 ◼   ► what my setup situation is gonna be.

00:59:33 ◼   ► - Oh, okay.

00:59:34 ◼   ► - So currently have a Mac Pro 12 core

00:59:39 ◼   ► with eight terabyte boot drive.

00:59:43 ◼   ► I have, you know what?

00:59:46 ◼   ► You've already made fun of me for the amount of storage

00:59:48 ◼   ► I have, I will not hear it again.

00:59:50 ◼   ► - I wasn't gonna say anything, I just think it laughing.

00:59:53 ◼   ► - I mean, you know.

00:59:55 ◼   ► - I didn't say anything.

00:59:55 ◼   ► - You're preserving human knowledge over there, so yeah.

01:00:00 ◼   ► - That's right.

01:00:01 ◼   ► It has a internal drive that I clone to every night.

01:00:06 ◼   ► And then also has--

01:00:09 ◼   ► How big is that one?

01:00:10 ◼   ► Eight terabytes.

01:00:11 ◼   ► So it's just the, it's gotta be the same, right?

01:00:16 ◼   ► Gotta be able to boot from it.

01:00:17 ◼   ► And then I have 16 terabytes for Time Machine.

01:00:22 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:00:24 ◼   ► How many?

01:00:25 ◼   ► Why do you need 16 terabytes of Time Machine?

01:00:28 ◼   ► Did you say 16?

01:00:30 ◼   ► 16.

01:00:31 ◼   ► - 16. - I said 60.

01:00:33 ◼   ► - 16. - You know?

01:00:34 ◼   ► - I mean, you're not a 16. - What do you need 16 terabytes

01:00:36 ◼   ► of time machine for, seriously?

01:00:38 ◼   ► - Well, because it's double. - It's double.

01:00:39 ◼   ► - It's double. - Oh, really?

01:00:40 ◼   ► Is that the thing? - And it's, well, really,

01:00:42 ◼   ► it's because the way it's put together,

01:00:43 ◼   ► those are two eight terabyte drives that are striped.

01:00:47 ◼   ► - Myke, that's what RAID 0 and RAID 1 mean, right?

01:00:52 ◼   ► It's the all-- - Yeah.

01:00:54 ◼   ► - Is that RAID 0? - I don't know.

01:00:56 ◼   ► It's whatever, wherever it adds the capacity.

01:01:01 ◼   ► - Is it RAID 1?

01:01:01 ◼   ► - I always get it wrong.

01:01:02 ◼   ► - I don't know.

01:01:03 ◼   ► - And those drives are on a card, an internal PCI card.

01:01:07 ◼   ► - On a card or on a cart?

01:01:09 ◼   ► - I mean, it's on a card on a cart, right?

01:01:13 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:01:14 ◼   ► If you think about it, everything is ultimately movable.

01:01:18 ◼   ► We're on the spinning planet.

01:01:21 ◼   ► Do you ever think about the permanence of objects?

01:01:26 ◼   ► - Honestly, all the time.

01:01:28 ◼   ► Like if the planet is spinning, is anything standing still?

01:01:31 ◼   ► Like that is honestly like a genuinely interesting

01:01:36 ◼   ► philosophical problem to have.

01:01:38 ◼   ► Like if our reality is always in motion,

01:01:41 ◼   ► is anything ever standing still?

01:01:43 ◼   ► Hence why we can go back to, yeah,

01:01:45 ◼   ► well, it's a long conversation.

01:01:47 ◼   ► - I just had this the other day, so I was on vacation.

01:01:49 ◼   ► I was out of town for a week and I came back into my office

01:01:52 ◼   ► and there was a water bottle that I had left open.

01:01:55 ◼   ► Like I left the top off of it.

01:01:57 ◼   ► - Mm-hmm.

01:01:58 ◼   ► - Like on the little coaster on my desk,

01:02:00 ◼   ► I was like, man, that top stayed off a whole week.

01:02:03 ◼   ► It was very strange, like a very like-

01:02:05 ◼   ► - Why?

01:02:06 ◼   ► Why is that weird?

01:02:07 ◼   ► - I don't know, it's just like, it struck me.

01:02:08 ◼   ► It's like, yeah, this has been in this same place

01:02:10 ◼   ► while I've been gone and now I'm back

01:02:12 ◼   ► and it's untouched, it hasn't moved.

01:02:14 ◼   ► - But has it really been in the same place?

01:02:17 ◼   ► That's the question.

01:02:18 ◼   ► - Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

01:02:19 ◼   ► I have a question for you.

01:02:20 ◼   ► There's a lot of things in your studio.

01:02:24 ◼   ► Why is that the only one that made you feel that way?

01:02:27 ◼   ► I think because I've realized I left the cap off the bottle

01:02:30 ◼   ► and it just like, it already had my attention.

01:02:32 ◼   ► And then, you know, it was like one of those

01:02:34 ◼   ► freshman dorm room when you're stoned kind of moments.

01:02:37 ◼   ► Like, whoa, do things move, man?

01:02:40 ◼   ► I thought you were gonna say something

01:02:41 ◼   ► like the water had evaporated

01:02:43 ◼   ► and that was what made you feel weird, you know?

01:02:45 ◼   ► Okay.

01:02:46 ◼   ► It's not that hot here yet.

01:02:47 ◼   ► Anyways, keeping.

01:02:50 ◼   ► But also like more broadly speaking,

01:02:52 ◼   ► like you could even postulate to that.

01:02:55 ◼   ► Like, if there's no control-- and I'm going to get deep here,

01:02:58 ◼   ► Steven, but I think you will appreciate it.

01:03:00 ◼   ► My point--

01:03:01 ◼   ► Honestly, at the point you said postulate, I'm like,

01:03:03 ◼   ► I'm done.

01:03:03 ◼   ► I'm going to wait until they're finished.

01:03:05 ◼   ► OK, but so like, if there's no control group

01:03:09 ◼   ► to double check on our reality, what is reality even?

01:03:13 ◼   ► Like, if reality is all that you see,

01:03:15 ◼   ► but there's no other entity that evaluates the thing you see,

01:03:18 ◼   ► reality might as well just be something

01:03:20 ◼   ► that you've completely made up.

01:03:21 ◼   ► I mean, how do I even know y'all are real,

01:03:23 ◼   ► and I'm just not hallucinating the whole episode.

01:03:25 ◼   ► - How do you know that the color green that I see

01:03:30 ◼   ► is the same color green that you see, am I right?

01:03:33 ◼   ► You know? - Precisely.

01:03:34 ◼   ► Yeah, that's the problem.

01:03:36 ◼   ► I'm surprised, Myke, you do not appreciate this.

01:03:38 ◼   ► - Anyway.

01:03:39 ◼   ► - I just...

01:03:41 ◼   ► - Have you been traumatized by these questions before?

01:03:44 ◼   ► - No, I was bullied by my family over questions like this.

01:03:47 ◼   ► So, no, it's not, it's no problem.

01:03:50 ◼   ► I did, I did a like a philosophy.

01:03:55 ◼   ► Would this be philosophy?

01:03:58 ◼   ► No.

01:03:59 ◼   ► Yeah?

01:03:59 ◼   ► - I mean, if you say it is.

01:04:00 ◼   ► - Well, okay.

01:04:01 ◼   ► I did like a philosophy, like,

01:04:04 ◼   ► I guess we'll call it a minor kind of thing.

01:04:08 ◼   ► And I went home and asked the questions to my family

01:04:11 ◼   ► of the thing, or told them like, what they are,

01:04:13 ◼   ► like, what did you do?

01:04:14 ◼   ► And I told them the thing and they also made fun of me.

01:04:16 ◼   ► - Oh, that's stupid.

01:04:17 ◼   ► I'm sorry.

01:04:18 ◼   ► That sucks.

01:04:19 ◼   ► - It just is what it is.

01:04:20 ◼   ► like it doesn't bother me we make fun of each other the three of us all the time

01:04:23 ◼   ► it's just the way it goes but like I think that kind of beat it out of me of

01:04:27 ◼   ► like stop sharing these sorts of people no no no you can't share with us you

01:04:32 ◼   ► can I know but also I think sometimes I don't want to think about them all

01:04:38 ◼   ► speaking of permanence of objects the produce black star is gonna stay

01:04:41 ◼   ► obviously it's amazing and I love it if there's one thing that's not it's um

01:04:46 ◼   ► It's that that thing is not moving. Okay. No, I'm using this display for another 20 years

01:04:52 ◼   ► You know ten thousand dollars will make something permanent

01:04:56 ◼   ► Cost no, that's how much the Mac Pro costs, right? I don't want to talk about that

01:05:01 ◼   ► I mean yours is come on. I mean you got 164 terabytes of storage in it. It's like

01:05:05 ◼   ► You know way over it now if I had an LG 5k still I'd be buying a studio display

01:05:12 ◼   ► or maybe two of them, but Pro Display is awesome.

01:05:16 ◼   ► - You have a better monitor, right?

01:05:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, I'm not even remotely tempted by it.

01:05:20 ◼   ► - You would be downgraded.

01:05:22 ◼   ► - I have a Touch ID keyboard now,

01:05:24 ◼   ► so I can use Touch ID with my fancy Apple Silicon Mac.

01:05:26 ◼   ► 'Cause my keyboard has an eject key where that should be,

01:05:30 ◼   ► which is hilarious.

01:05:32 ◼   ► - That's when all the SSDs pop out the side.

01:05:35 ◼   ► - Yeah, oh no.

01:05:38 ◼   ► So I ordered the eight terabyte model

01:05:40 ◼   ► for my internal drive, so that'll stay the same size.

01:05:44 ◼   ► And then I have to move the other storage external,

01:05:48 ◼   ► which I am not thrilled about, but it is what it is.

01:05:51 ◼   ► So I have a couple of drive enclosures,

01:05:56 ◼   ► well, they're here now,

01:05:58 ◼   ► one for the eight terabyte, the nightly clone.

01:06:02 ◼   ► And it's just a, it's from OWC, it's a USB 3.2,

01:06:08 ◼   ► So the 10 gigabit per second, bus powered,

01:06:11 ◼   ► so no power adapter to contend with.

01:06:13 ◼   ► Just little metal fanless enclosure to put that SSD in.

01:06:17 ◼   ► I've used these in the past and had good luck with them.

01:06:20 ◼   ► So ordered one for this.

01:06:23 ◼   ► And then for the time machine one

01:06:26 ◼   ► was a little more complicated 'cause that's two drives

01:06:29 ◼   ► and they need to be put together into one larger volume.

01:06:34 ◼   ► And it turns out OWC sells basically

01:06:36 ◼   ► a two drive version of this.

01:06:39 ◼   ► So it uses USB 3.1 Gen 2.

01:06:42 ◼   ► So again, it's 10 gigabits per second,

01:06:45 ◼   ► bus powered, it's aluminum.

01:06:48 ◼   ► These designs of these cases don't match,

01:06:50 ◼   ► which really irks me.

01:06:52 ◼   ► I don't know why they've changed their design language,

01:06:54 ◼   ► but they have.

01:06:55 ◼   ► And I could put these two drives in there side by side.

01:06:59 ◼   ► I looked at a couple of different options.

01:07:00 ◼   ► - Wait. - Yeah.

01:07:01 ◼   ► - Why can't you just put all,

01:07:03 ◼   ► - 'Cause one is eight and one is two times eight.

01:07:05 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:07:06 ◼   ► - Okay, I was gonna say why don't you just buy two

01:07:07 ◼   ► of the same thing, but it's 'cause one has two of them.

01:07:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause you can't buy a 16 terabyte SSD.

01:07:13 ◼   ► - I have a way for you to get around this.

01:07:15 ◼   ► Buy another eight terabyte SSD.

01:07:18 ◼   ► Then you've got 16 terabyte,

01:07:21 ◼   ► you got a whole other eight terabytes

01:07:22 ◼   ► to do whatever you want with,

01:07:23 ◼   ► and then just get two of those things.

01:07:24 ◼   ► - That's true.

01:07:25 ◼   ► - Stack 'em on top of each other.

01:07:26 ◼   ► - Those eight terabyte SSDs are expensive.

01:07:28 ◼   ► - Imagine what you could do with another eight terabytes.

01:07:31 ◼   ► - It's true, I suppose.

01:07:33 ◼   ► I looked at a couple of different things

01:07:34 ◼   ► for the time machine and like, yes,

01:07:35 ◼   ► I could just get like a spinning USB hard drive,

01:07:37 ◼   ► but already have these SSDs.

01:07:39 ◼   ► I want to use them, they're silent.

01:07:40 ◼   ► - Not that that matters anymore with your loud computer.

01:07:43 ◼   ► - Hush.

01:07:43 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:07:45 ◼   ► OWC does, and other companies,

01:07:47 ◼   ► I'm just, I've looked at their website.

01:07:49 ◼   ► They sell something called the MiniStack STX.

01:07:53 ◼   ► And it is the size of Mac mini footprint,

01:07:59 ◼   ► which is the same size as the Mac Studio footprint.

01:08:01 ◼   ► So it goes underneath the machine or on top,

01:08:04 ◼   ► and it has the ability to go up to 18 terabytes of storage.

01:08:09 ◼   ► You have a NVMe M.2 SSD,

01:08:14 ◼   ► and then a SATA slot,

01:08:16 ◼   ► or a place to put a SATA drive in,

01:08:19 ◼   ► and you can ray them together.

01:08:21 ◼   ► The issue with this is a couple of things come up.

01:08:25 ◼   ► One, I already have the drives,

01:08:26 ◼   ► so just finding an enclosure for them

01:08:28 ◼   ► makes more sense to me than buying more drives.

01:08:31 ◼   ► It also has an external power supply,

01:08:34 ◼   ► which I really don't wanna deal with.

01:08:36 ◼   ► I like that this can be bus power so it's cleaner

01:08:39 ◼   ► and I've got less things to plug in.

01:08:42 ◼   ► But this thing has a fan in it.

01:08:44 ◼   ► I guess because of the NVMe drive,

01:08:46 ◼   ► it needs some air moving over it, didn't want that.

01:08:50 ◼   ► So I've gone with the fanless cases across the board.

01:08:56 ◼   ► And this stuff will be like stacked up, I guess,

01:08:59 ◼   ► maybe under the Mac studio behind the screen.

01:09:02 ◼   ► We don't really see it,

01:09:03 ◼   ► but it makes me miss internal storage already.

01:09:05 ◼   ► 'Cause it's really nice to have all of that

01:09:07 ◼   ► inside the computer.

01:09:08 ◼   ► - How is it all gonna be connected?

01:09:10 ◼   ► Is it all Thunderbolt?

01:09:12 ◼   ► - These two enclosures are USB,

01:09:14 ◼   ► the 10 gigabit per second USB.

01:09:17 ◼   ► - USB-C.

01:09:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, but these are backup drives.

01:09:19 ◼   ► So the nightly one, I don't care how long it takes

01:09:22 ◼   ► 'cause it runs at night and the time machine one,

01:09:24 ◼   ► it's still gonna be way faster than a time machine drive

01:09:28 ◼   ► that's like a USB spinning hard drive.

01:09:32 ◼   ► And so these will be plenty fast for what I need them for

01:09:37 ◼   ► because it's not my primary.

01:09:38 ◼   ► - You could put those somewhere else though,

01:09:39 ◼   ► they don't need to be on the desk.

01:09:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, I could even run long cables

01:09:42 ◼   ► and like mount them under the desk

01:09:44 ◼   ► or on a shelf or something.

01:09:45 ◼   ► So that's the plan,

01:09:48 ◼   ► it's gonna be a stack of external drives.

01:09:51 ◼   ► Just a little disappointing.

01:09:53 ◼   ► But I am very excited about making the jump tap with silicon.

01:09:56 ◼   ► And--

01:09:57 ◼   ► - Why don't you just keep the Mac Pro

01:10:00 ◼   ► and put the Mac Studio inside of it?

01:10:02 ◼   ► And then everything will still be internal.

01:10:06 ◼   ► It'll be more internal, really, if you think about it.

01:10:10 ◼   ► - I mean, you're not wrong, but you're also not right at all.

01:10:13 ◼   ► - I mean, I'm right in my own way.

01:10:16 ◼   ► There's so many holes in that case,

01:10:17 ◼   ► you could thread some cables through there, you know?

01:10:20 ◼   ► It'd be fine.

01:10:21 ◼   ► As Myke says in the Discord, expandable.

01:10:23 ◼   ► - Expandable, no! - It's expandable.

01:10:25 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:10:27 ◼   ► - So yeah, the MacStudio's still a couple weeks out.

01:10:30 ◼   ► My plan is to sell the Mac Pro.

01:10:32 ◼   ► I've already had a couple of people

01:10:34 ◼   ► ask me about parts of the Mac Pro.

01:10:37 ◼   ► So I don't know, I may take some of the,

01:10:40 ◼   ► like that RAID card or,

01:10:43 ◼   ► I was gonna sell the, 'cause I upgraded the GPU,

01:10:47 ◼   ► I was gonna sell it separately

01:10:49 ◼   ► and then like put the stock GPU back in it

01:10:51 ◼   ► to sell the machine, but I sold the stock GPU,

01:10:54 ◼   ► apparently like a year ago.

01:10:55 ◼   ► I was looking through what I have on hand,

01:10:58 ◼   ► I was like, oh, I definitely got rid of that already.

01:11:00 ◼   ► So I'm not quite sure how it's gonna get sold off.

01:11:02 ◼   ► I know Myke, you think I should keep it, but--

01:11:04 ◼   ► - I think you should keep it.

01:11:05 ◼   ► Videri, could you agree with me?

01:11:06 ◼   ► I think you should keep the Mac Pro.

01:11:08 ◼   ► - Hmm.

01:11:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, see? - Yeah, keep it.

01:11:11 ◼   ► But there's something silly with it.

01:11:15 ◼   ► - Eric has the most Steven question,

01:11:18 ◼   ► which is in the discord.

01:11:21 ◼   ► Why not wait and see what the new Mac Pro will be?

01:11:24 ◼   ► Let me tell you, Eric, he's doing that.

01:11:26 ◼   ► He is waiting, but whilst waiting,

01:11:28 ◼   ► he's changing his computer.

01:11:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, this doesn't preclude me from moving again.

01:11:34 ◼   ► - No, it doesn't.

01:11:35 ◼   ► Flip flop, you know, there's a reason.

01:11:37 ◼   ► That's the other thing, which is why I've said

01:11:40 ◼   ► that he should not sell the Mac Pro immediately.

01:11:43 ◼   ► I think you need to hang on to it for a while.

01:11:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm not selling it immediately,

01:11:46 ◼   ► Because I want to make sure that this works for me and the noise isn't a problem.

01:11:51 ◼   ► Because we found two asterisks so far.

01:11:54 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

01:11:55 ◼   ► Noise and you're really upset about having to put the SSDs outside.

01:12:01 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:12:02 ◼   ► And so, you know, we've got two like chinks in the armor here for this computer.

01:12:08 ◼   ► And so I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't get rid of the Mac Pro yet because you might not like it.

01:12:16 ◼   ► Yeah, it'll stick around for a bit.

01:12:17 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

01:12:19 ◼   ► And then maybe John Sirquiussa will buy

01:12:21 ◼   ► a Rayam out of it or something, who knows?

01:12:23 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

01:12:24 ◼   ► Be like a car boot sale,

01:12:27 ◼   ► but just people just buying parts out of a Mac Pro.

01:12:31 ◼   ► I was thinking more like organ donation, right?

01:12:33 ◼   ► Like someone gets your liver, someone gets your heart,

01:12:35 ◼   ► someone gets your retinas.

01:12:37 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:12:38 ◼   ► Et cetera.

01:12:39 ◼   ► I can't imagine anyone's gonna put like the SSD

01:12:40 ◼   ► on like a bike and like get it across town though, on ice.

01:12:44 ◼   ► Stat, we gotta move this.

01:12:46 ◼   ► We got 20 minutes on this GPU.

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01:15:07 ◼   ► Five years ago, we got some shocking news

01:15:11 ◼   ► that Apple was going to be acquiring workflow.

01:15:16 ◼   ► I remember this very well.

01:15:19 ◼   ► I was shocked that it's been five years,

01:15:22 ◼   ► but Federico, I'd love to talk to you about this news

01:15:25 ◼   ► and how you felt at the time

01:15:27 ◼   ► and how you think Apple's handled this

01:15:29 ◼   ► in the half decade since.

01:15:32 ◼   ► I love your worst case, best case sort of approach

01:15:37 ◼   ► to your article.

01:15:39 ◼   ► So we have this article called the future of workflow

01:15:42 ◼   ► in the show notes, where you outlined sort of

01:15:46 ◼   ► what you viewed as the worst outcome.

01:15:48 ◼   ► So maybe let's start with that.

01:15:49 ◼   ► Like what were you afraid of, you know,

01:15:52 ◼   ► that could have happened when Apple purchased workflow?

01:15:55 ◼   ► Like what was that worst case scenario in your mind?

01:15:58 ◼   ► - Right, right.

01:15:59 ◼   ► So the worst case scenario was sort of following the typical playbook of most startup acquisitions,

01:16:06 ◼   ► right?

01:16:07 ◼   ► That it was going to be an acqui hire so that the workflow team was going to join Apple,

01:16:11 ◼   ► but they would stop working on the workflow app and the workflow app would eventually

01:16:16 ◼   ► get discontinued as those folks had been hired by Apple and they started working on other

01:16:21 ◼   ► things.

01:16:22 ◼   ► And I feel like the concern was justified because in the acquisition news, a detail

01:16:27 ◼   ► that maybe some people do not remember is that Matthew Panzareno, when he broke the

01:16:31 ◼   ► news on TechCrunch, he mentioned specifically that the workflow team was going to be joining

01:16:37 ◼   ► the Siri and proactive intelligence teams at Apple. And that seems like, okay, why would

01:16:46 ◼   ► you want to work there on those teams? You know, especially Siri of five years ago. I

01:16:51 ◼   ► mean, Siri is not great now. Imagine five years ago. So there was some skepticism.

01:16:57 ◼   ► skepticism surrounding this acquisition and what would it mean. Also,

01:17:02 ◼   ► there was also, like, there was that constant underlying sense of, oh, this

01:17:11 ◼   ► entire app has been built on, you know, on a very risky foundation. It's a house

01:17:18 ◼   ► of cards based on a bunch of workarounds and, sure, native APIs, but are we sure

01:17:24 ◼   ► that Apple really likes what these young kids have been doing? And the answer is

01:17:31 ◼   ► that yeah, they were actually in love with it and the the worst case scenario

01:17:36 ◼   ► did not come true. Actually the the absolute best case scenario come true

01:17:41 ◼   ► and perhaps even more than I imagined. Yeah, you have in your article some

01:17:48 ◼   ► things that you hoped to see if Apple took the better path. So things like a better action

01:17:54 ◼   ► extension, new privileges, deeper integration. You talk about what you called workflow kit,

01:18:03 ◼   ► which would... Right, which eventually would be SiriKit. But that was... So my assumption was

01:18:10 ◼   ► all those things were... And I'm really, you know, patting myself on the back over here. I'm really

01:18:15 ◼   ► glad that I made those predictions because that was exactly what Apple ended up doing. So my idea was

01:18:22 ◼   ► Workflow has built this ecosystem of third-party apps that are compatible. I guess it's been five

01:18:30 ◼   ► years so maybe we can share these details now. We knew, some of us knew at the time that something

01:18:36 ◼   ► was happening because some of those applications that had that had workflow compatibility at

01:18:46 ◼   ► the time, they were suddenly asked by the workflow team to sign some additional paperwork

01:18:54 ◼   ► to grant them permission to use their URL schemes. Yeah, and I think we thought that

01:19:00 ◼   ► they were in legal trouble or were getting like someone is trying to sue them or something.

01:19:05 ◼   ► we knew/we thought that something was going on. And a few months later, the news of this

01:19:13 ◼   ► acquisition broke. So obviously, they were getting their affairs in order to prepare

01:19:18 ◼   ► to be acquired by Apple. But the idea was, well, they have this third-party ecosystem,

01:19:24 ◼   ► but it's all based on URL schemes and X-callback URL stuff. There has to be a better way to

01:19:31 ◼   ► to do this, right? And this is where Apple, you know, being, you know, Apple is Apple

01:19:36 ◼   ► because they have really smart people working on this stuff that can have a vision to turn

01:19:42 ◼   ► an existing product into something that you don't know you need, but that once you see

01:19:47 ◼   ► it, you're like, "Oh yeah, I guess that makes perfect sense." And the idea was, what if

01:19:52 ◼   ► we take this idea of having a system that allows apps to exchange data in the background,

01:20:03 ◼   ► or you know, things like to create notes, to start directions to a location, to retrieve

01:20:11 ◼   ► documents, whatever. What if that actually became part of the framework that we have

01:20:18 ◼   ► for Siri? And what if all these shortcuts that you created as the user could also be

01:20:25 ◼   ► triggered as a custom phrase in Siri? So that was the idea, blending together the world

01:20:32 ◼   ► of Siri and Workflow, then rename shortcuts, in a way that used the existing foundation.

01:20:40 ◼   ► That's where Apple was really smart. They didn't have to create a separate shortcuts

01:20:45 ◼   ► kit or whatever. They built on top of SiriKit, with wildly different results, right? Because

01:20:52 ◼   ► in Siri, the voice assistant continues to be largely inefficient, let's say, at dealing

01:21:01 ◼   ► with third-party app integrations. But in shortcuts, there are some really, really excellent

01:21:07 ◼   ► examples of SiriKit-based actions from third-party apps that let you do all kinds of stuff.

01:21:14 ◼   ► Especially because over the years Apple has raised the memory limit for these actions,

01:21:20 ◼   ► they have allowed even complex actions to run for longer in the background,

01:21:25 ◼   ► and now you can do things like Pixelmator Pro Super ML Resolution as a shortcuts action on the Mac.

01:21:33 ◼   ► So wildly different outcomes for the same technology, and I find that fascinating.

01:21:40 ◼   ► And obviously, the thing that I could not possibly expect at the time was shortcuts for Mac.

01:21:44 ◼   ► So Apple just coming right out last year and saying, "We believe shortcuts is the future

01:21:50 ◼   ► of automation on Apple platforms." Well, okay. So that's a big commitment. That's a big statement.

01:21:56 ◼   ► And so honestly, looking back at five years ago, all the things that I wanted came true.

01:22:03 ◼   ► But obviously, with time and with the relaunch of shortcuts in iOS 12,

01:22:08 ◼   ► and all the updates for iPad later, and most recently with Monterey, there are always new

01:22:16 ◼   ► things, right? There are always new problems that come up and always new wishes that you come up

01:22:21 ◼   ► with. And I feel like it's not all positive, right? There are still some lingering issues,

01:22:29 ◼   ► I would say, for example, the fact that shortcuts, almost on an annual basis, has undergone a

01:22:37 ◼   ► redesign in the editor, in the library, and last year, by switching to SwiftUI, they have

01:22:45 ◼   ► introduced dozens, hundreds maybe, of bugs and visual glitches on all platforms. Many

01:22:53 ◼   ► of them still haven't been fixed. Apple has been very proactive in reaching out to the

01:22:59 ◼   ► community and now they have full-on detailed release notes for shortcuts on apple.com,

01:23:06 ◼   ► which is incredible. All the individual bug fixes are mentioned in the release notes,

01:23:12 ◼   ► so that's great. They're making progress. But I said this last year and I'm going to

01:23:17 ◼   ► say it again, at some point the annual redesigns need to stop. And so hopefully now that they

01:23:23 ◼   ► have SwiftUI, that's done. And more broadly speaking, the other thing I would mention is

01:23:29 ◼   ► there's still work to be done in terms of consistency. Shortcuts at the moment is everywhere,

01:23:37 ◼   ► but it doesn't behave the same on all platforms, and you have these very different

01:23:43 ◼   ► possibilities. Whether you use shortcuts on the Mac or use it on the iPad or use it on the iPhone,

01:23:51 ◼   ► It's almost like they were made by separate teams. On the Mac you can fully control multitasking,

01:23:57 ◼   ► and you can resize and place windows anywhere. You can run JavaScript, you can run JavaScript,

01:24:04 ◼   ► you can run AppleScript, you have system-wide integration with the keyboard, so you can have

01:24:11 ◼   ► custom triggers. In Monterey version 12.3 they added this new option to shortcuts for Mac that I

01:24:19 ◼   ► found out about a couple of days ago, called Provide Output.

01:24:23 ◼   ► This is like a hidden toggle in the Details screen,

01:24:28 ◼   ► in the configuration screen for a shortcut.

01:24:31 ◼   ► And if you enable it, you can basically put together

01:24:34 ◼   ► shortcuts that automatically replace things

01:24:39 ◼   ► in the app that you're using.

01:24:40 ◼   ► Like for example, you're using TextEdit,

01:24:43 ◼   ► you select all the text in a document, the shortcut runs,

01:24:47 ◼   ► and if you have Provide Output enabled,

01:24:49 ◼   ► it replaces the selected text in the--

01:24:52 ◼   ► - I could make a markdown--

01:24:54 ◼   ► - Convert to Rich Text stuff.

01:24:56 ◼   ► Yes, I already made one.

01:24:58 ◼   ► And you know, it's one action.

01:25:01 ◼   ► To do that sort of stuff now, it's one action.

01:25:03 ◼   ► Because all you do is convert markdown to Rich Text,

01:25:07 ◼   ► one action, you go to the configuration screen,

01:25:09 ◼   ► you click on Provide Output, and that does it.

01:25:13 ◼   ► - And I could do that by keyboard shortcut too, right?

01:25:16 ◼   ► Yes, you select text, you run the keyboard.

01:25:19 ◼   ► So you see this, like on the Mac now,

01:25:21 ◼   ► you can do these incredible things with shortcuts.

01:25:24 ◼   ► And I get it, maybe on the iPhone,

01:25:26 ◼   ► you shouldn't be able to do them,

01:25:28 ◼   ► but on the iPad with the keyboard

01:25:31 ◼   ► and a very similar system, why not?

01:25:34 ◼   ► So enough with the redesigns, more stability,

01:25:37 ◼   ► performance improvements,

01:25:39 ◼   ► and I think the next big thing for shortcuts,

01:25:42 ◼   ► and maybe then we can go into some more specific wishes,

01:25:45 ◼   ► but the next big thing needs to be consistency.

01:25:50 ◼   ► Make the app behave as much as possible in a similar way.

01:25:55 ◼   ► - I mean, it is a necessity because the shortcuts sync.

01:26:00 ◼   ► You can't keep making them different from each other

01:26:04 ◼   ► when they sync cross-platform,

01:26:07 ◼   ► because then you end up with a bunch of problems,

01:26:09 ◼   ► like to the point that they had to introduce,

01:26:12 ◼   ► like detect device for this reason, right?

01:26:15 ◼   ► - As an action. - Exactly.

01:26:16 ◼   ► That's a symptom.

01:26:18 ◼   ► I get it, it's a nice option,

01:26:20 ◼   ► but that is also a symptom of a problem,

01:26:22 ◼   ► which is you gotta have conditions

01:26:24 ◼   ► to check the platform you're using.

01:26:27 ◼   ► That's not ideal.

01:26:28 ◼   ► Imagine if like reminders at a sub-menu that said,

01:26:30 ◼   ► "Mac only," but no, it doesn't have it.

01:26:34 ◼   ► - It's nice.

01:26:35 ◼   ► It's nice that they have it

01:26:36 ◼   ► because there are times where you might just want it

01:26:39 ◼   ► to be completely different as a shortcut.

01:26:42 ◼   ► I like that they embrace things that are Mac-ish,

01:26:46 ◼   ► like the menu bar or whatever, like that's great.

01:26:50 ◼   ► But you're right, like there are certain things like,

01:26:52 ◼   ► like the way that Safari actions would not work the same

01:26:54 ◼   ► or the way that, as you mentioned,

01:26:57 ◼   ► the multitasking actions just not doing the same thing

01:27:00 ◼   ► or not working at all.

01:27:01 ◼   ► It's like this stuff, we can't go like this forever.

01:27:06 ◼   ► I mean, it does make me actually like,

01:27:08 ◼   ► we're talking about like how much has changed in five years

01:27:11 ◼   ► and like how much farther ahead it is.

01:27:14 ◼   ► But there is still this point in my back of my mind,

01:27:16 ◼   ► which is reminds me of the iPad discussion

01:27:18 ◼   ► that we had last week Federico of like,

01:27:20 ◼   ► it's been five years and there are still these things

01:27:22 ◼   ► that are, that have not changed.

01:27:25 ◼   ► And like, and I, at this point don't understand why,

01:27:27 ◼   ► like, like keyboard shortcut triggering of shortcuts, right?

01:27:32 ◼   ► Especially now Apple has a second global modifier key.

01:27:39 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:27:40 ◼   ► - Right? On the iPad that the Mac doesn't even have.

01:27:44 ◼   ► And you still can't do it, you know?

01:27:47 ◼   ► - Well, new Macs do, but it's not rolled out completely.

01:27:50 ◼   ► - New Macs do, but yeah.

01:27:51 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:27:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, because command, option, control, and shift

01:27:54 ◼   ► were not enough.

01:27:55 ◼   ► We needed a fifth one.

01:27:56 ◼   ► Going to five shortcuts.

01:27:58 ◼   ► - We're doing five blades.

01:28:00 ◼   ► We're doing five blades.

01:28:01 ◼   ► But, so looking ahead at the next five years, maybe,

01:28:05 ◼   ► I guess, performance improvements is the next big thing.

01:28:08 ◼   ► Like, you need to really polish this thing now.

01:28:12 ◼   ► And consistency, obviously.

01:28:14 ◼   ► But I think in the next five years, I would say,

01:28:17 ◼   ► let's keep an eye out for these features.

01:28:20 ◼   ► Third-party triggers for automations.

01:28:25 ◼   ► I think Apple should expand the list of potential triggers

01:28:28 ◼   ► for automations to include specific events

01:28:31 ◼   ► from third-party apps.

01:28:33 ◼   ► So go beyond schedule, like it's 7 p.m. on a Thursday,

01:28:37 ◼   ► or go beyond, you know, I'm connected to Wi-Fi.

01:28:39 ◼   ► Imagine if things like,

01:28:41 ◼   ► I received a new message in Tweetbot,

01:28:44 ◼   ► or in Slack from this person, could be a trigger.

01:28:48 ◼   ► So third-party triggers as events from apps.

01:28:53 ◼   ► That's something that I would love Apple to work on.

01:28:55 ◼   ► The Provide Output option that I just mentioned

01:28:59 ◼   ► is part of a bigger thing that I believe Apple

01:29:03 ◼   ► consider, which is more direct control for app UI. And I'm not talking necessarily about UI scripting,

01:29:14 ◼   ► which is notoriously a very bad thing to do, but I would love to have more options in shortcuts to

01:29:22 ◼   ► really control and speed up things that I do inside apps. Like, I don't know, open this

01:29:29 ◼   ► this document, switch to editing mode, share this document with this specific person, like

01:29:35 ◼   ► those kinds of actions that control features and the interface of third-party apps, that's

01:29:42 ◼   ► something that I would love to see in shortcuts, especially if more pro apps are coming to

01:29:48 ◼   ► iPad and iPhone, you know, five years from now.

01:29:50 ◼   ► Is that an Apple thing or a developer thing or both?

01:29:54 ◼   ► Well, I think it needs to be both, especially when--

01:29:58 ◼   ► I really see this as going in combination

01:30:00 ◼   ► with multitasking better, multitasking actions,

01:30:04 ◼   ► especially on iPad, to have fine-grained controls for,

01:30:09 ◼   ► let me create a specific workspace in shortcuts,

01:30:13 ◼   ► down to the specific window of the same app

01:30:16 ◼   ► and to the sizing of the window.

01:30:18 ◼   ► Like, I have three Safari windows open.

01:30:20 ◼   ► I want to pick this specific one,

01:30:22 ◼   ► and I wanna put it on the bottom left corner.

01:30:25 ◼   ► And then I want like reassembling an exact replica

01:30:29 ◼   ► of a workspace from Shortcuts

01:30:31 ◼   ► to basically have like a saved workspace, right?

01:30:33 ◼   ► That sort of integration, I think,

01:30:35 ◼   ► it needs to come from Apple.

01:30:37 ◼   ► And then, and this is the real sort of big picture stuff,

01:30:42 ◼   ► I really feel like there is a potential for Shortcuts

01:30:47 ◼   ► to be used as a sort of like as this recipe

01:30:51 ◼   ► building tool to create, it's called maybe presets for potential headsets or glasses

01:31:01 ◼   ► down the road. Because I imagine like having those kinds of devices on your face,

01:31:06 ◼   ► you will want to save as much time as possible while performing common actions. And so I feel

01:31:11 ◼   ► like there's a place for shortcuts to be like, you know, you say a phrase and a shortcut

01:31:18 ◼   ► presents you, cuts a bunch of steps from whatever you want to do. Like maybe you want to,

01:31:23 ◼   ► you know, you're wearing glasses in 2027 or something and you're like, okay, I'm heading home,

01:31:29 ◼   ► but I also want to text my partner and tell them I'm coming home. Like that sort of thing that you

01:31:34 ◼   ► can do now with the Apple Watch and the iPhone, but imagine becoming super quick and super invisible.

01:31:40 ◼   ► Because there's even less UI that you can tap, it's harder to do that. That's interesting.

01:31:46 ◼   ► What if someone made an app for sending fast texts?

01:31:50 ◼   ► How would that be like?

01:31:52 ◼   ► If it doesn't have feet, there's no point.

01:31:54 ◼   ► What would you call it? Quick, quick, quick, what do you call it? Quick type?

01:31:57 ◼   ► No, that's another thing.

01:31:59 ◼   ► Instant message?

01:32:01 ◼   ► Quick SMS?

01:32:04 ◼   ► Considering we're making fun of Casey again for no reason,

01:32:08 ◼   ► I would just like to take a moment to promote Casey's app called Masquerade.

01:32:11 ◼   ► It's very good.

01:32:12 ◼   ► lovely app that allows you to add emoji to images with face detection.

01:32:18 ◼   ► That's great. Gotta be nice at least one out of 20 times, you know?

01:32:21 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, I think looking back over the last five years, there's so much in your article,

01:32:26 ◼   ► Federico, that came true. I think it's clear now that Apple bought shortcuts, maybe not

01:32:34 ◼   ► with exactly where we are in mind, but with the vision of this being their complete automation

01:32:41 ◼   ► story. I mean, we got that line from them last year to see that shortcuts is the

01:32:46 ◼   ► future of automation on the Mac. Automator will be eventually

01:32:50 ◼   ► sunsetted and they are bringing in those actions into the Mac and the Mac

01:32:55 ◼   ► version has scripting support and all sorts of wild stuff that I just I did

01:32:59 ◼   ► not expect to see but I'm so glad it's there and for me at least yeah there are

01:33:05 ◼   ► issues and there are bugs and they're all silly limitations especially on iOS

01:33:09 ◼   ► and iPadOS, but the vision I think is a good one.

01:33:14 ◼   ► And I'm encouraged that they seem to be taking it

01:33:17 ◼   ► really seriously because they should, right?

01:33:19 ◼   ► Like if pro users need something solid

01:33:24 ◼   ► to build their workflows on,

01:33:26 ◼   ► maybe shortcuts isn't quite there yet,

01:33:28 ◼   ► especially on the Mac, but I think with time it will be.

01:33:32 ◼   ► And that's exciting.

01:33:33 ◼   ► I'm glad that Apple cares about this

01:33:35 ◼   ► because I think that's important to a lot of their users.

01:33:39 ◼   ► And also to build on what you were saying to Stan Steven,

01:33:41 ◼   ► like that they consider it important enough

01:33:45 ◼   ► that it is a building block in the things

01:33:50 ◼   ► that they continue to push forward to, right?

01:33:53 ◼   ► With the potential of doing the kind of stuff

01:33:55 ◼   ► that Federica was talking about, you know?

01:33:57 ◼   ► That it's like it's there.

01:33:58 ◼   ► And it does feel like that they keep doing that.

01:34:00 ◼   ► Like they add new stuff and then shortcuts

01:34:03 ◼   ► takes advantage of it in a new way, right?

01:34:05 ◼   ► - Yeah. - There's always been

01:34:06 ◼   ► this system, the NS activity system or whatever, and they say well now we build shortcuts on

01:34:11 ◼   ► top of all of that, so it's like really baked into everything.

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01:36:46 ◼   ► the show and Relay FM I need to call a special connected Congress to order

01:36:53 ◼   ► What does that mean?

01:36:55 ◼   ► So there is a Google Doc link in the show notes I would like you to each open.

01:36:58 ◼   ► I'm opening it.

01:36:59 ◼   ► I spent some time in the mountains, and like a certain someone in the Old Testament, have

01:37:05 ◼   ► come down with a new set of rules.

01:37:08 ◼   ► Wow, someone came back with a self-inflated sense of themselves, I think is what they

01:37:15 ◼   ► actually came back with.

01:37:16 ◼   ► Oh yeah, like Noah.

01:37:18 ◼   ► Not Noah.

01:37:20 ◼   ► Bruce Banner.

01:37:22 ◼   ► Bruce Banner coming down from like Darth Vader Darth Vader had to go fight the

01:37:30 ◼   ► Power Rangers okay so yeah this I need to be really clear about what this is

01:37:35 ◼   ► and what this isn't this is a new document for the Ricky's it is a

01:37:40 ◼   ► suggested revision to the Bill of Ricky no this is a new constitution that

01:37:45 ◼   ► you're just I'm merely suggesting it this is I'm underlying this not an

01:37:51 ◼   ► an attempt to somehow introduce annual chairman powers

01:37:56 ◼   ► to affect change.

01:37:58 ◼   ► You know me, man.

01:38:00 ◼   ► You knew I was gonna say that.

01:38:01 ◼   ► I was just about to say, here we go, he's done it.

01:38:04 ◼   ► Yeah, I know.

01:38:06 ◼   ► This needs to be peer reviewed.

01:38:08 ◼   ► Well, that's what we're gonna do.

01:38:09 ◼   ► We cannot just, well, who are our peers?

01:38:13 ◼   ► We are the peers of him.

01:38:15 ◼   ► No, there needs to be an external committee.

01:38:17 ◼   ► No, there's not.

01:38:18 ◼   ► This is how you give them power and they take over.

01:38:21 ◼   ► - Ah.

01:38:22 ◼   ► - So I know Myke wants this like annual chairmanship

01:38:25 ◼   ► to come with power.

01:38:26 ◼   ► I don't agree with that.

01:38:27 ◼   ► This is not a move in that direction.

01:38:29 ◼   ► I've wanted to clean up.

01:38:30 ◼   ► - You don't agree with it, but as annual chairman,

01:38:33 ◼   ► you've decided you're gonna rewrite

01:38:34 ◼   ► the entire bill of Rickeys. - No, no.

01:38:35 ◼   ► As reader of the rules every time,

01:38:37 ◼   ► as someone who has to stumble through them,

01:38:40 ◼   ► they're too long and too wordy.

01:38:41 ◼   ► And so what I've done is simply cleaned them up

01:38:44 ◼   ► in this proposed bill of Rickeys.

01:38:48 ◼   ► So my suggestion is that I read these

01:38:52 ◼   ► and then I'll read a section and then we can talk about it.

01:38:55 ◼   ► How does that sound?

01:38:56 ◼   ► Okay, I mean, are you gonna tell us how you've changed it?

01:38:59 ◼   ► Is that gonna be a medium?

01:39:00 ◼   ► Yes, I have two notes prepared.

01:39:02 ◼   ► Okay.

01:39:02 ◼   ► So the first thing is something

01:39:04 ◼   ► that we've been meaning to do for a while

01:39:06 ◼   ► and we just haven't done it,

01:39:07 ◼   ► is some sort of preamble to explain

01:39:10 ◼   ► what the heck these episodes are.

01:39:12 ◼   ► Yeah, that's been a thing we've wanted to do for a bit,

01:39:14 ◼   ► but we've been pushed for time, so.

01:39:16 ◼   ► The other thing, the other kind of meta-structural thing

01:39:19 ◼   ► I've done is over time, the rules for the Ricky's

01:39:24 ◼   ► and the Flexys have been both together and apart.

01:39:27 ◼   ► I have truly separated them now.

01:39:30 ◼   ► They each have their own preamble

01:39:31 ◼   ► and their own set of rules.

01:39:33 ◼   ► And so I think as someone listens to these episodes,

01:39:36 ◼   ► especially if someone's new to the show, welcome.

01:39:38 ◼   ► - What a terrible episode to be new to,

01:39:40 ◼   ► like my word, Ricky's episodes.

01:39:44 ◼   ► - I'm sorry.

01:39:45 ◼   ► Yeah. We want to make that a better experience.

01:39:47 ◼   ► As you go through this, if me or Federico have something we want to say,

01:39:53 ◼   ► can we jump in or should we wait?

01:39:55 ◼   ► Let me read the whole,

01:39:56 ◼   ► so let me read like the Ricky's preamble and we'll talk about that and then I'll

01:39:59 ◼   ► read the Ricky's rules and we'll talk about that. How does that sound?

01:40:01 ◼   ► I'm fine with that.

01:40:03 ◼   ► Okay. Cause I may explain something later, you know, as we go. Okay.

01:40:06 ◼   ► So this is my proposed new Ricky's preamble. Okay.

01:40:11 ◼   ► The Ricky's is a game connected host play before Apple events.

01:40:15 ◼   ► It is made up of three rounds. Each host makes two regular picks followed by a risky pick.

01:40:21 ◼   ► Okay.

01:40:21 ◼   ► There are two types of rookies, annual rookies and keynote rookies. The winner of the annual

01:40:26 ◼   ► rookies is named annual chairman and retains the rights to the corresponding Twitter account

01:40:30 ◼   ► for the full year. This position is awarded every January. The keynote rookies winner

01:40:35 ◼   ► is named the keynote chairman and retains the rights to the corresponding Twitter account

01:40:39 ◼   ► until the next keynote is held. After the rookies, the hosts play a game called the

01:40:43 ◼   ► The Flexis, these two games have separate but related rules.

01:40:47 ◼   ► Please stand for the reading of the rules for the Ricky's.

01:40:50 ◼   ► So that's the preamble.

01:40:51 ◼   ► - I have three issues.

01:40:53 ◼   ► Three issues.

01:40:56 ◼   ► - I have one that I noticed when I was reading it.

01:41:00 ◼   ► The first sentence needs tweaking,

01:41:01 ◼   ► 'cause we don't always play it before an Apple event.

01:41:04 ◼   ► We do have an annual version.

01:41:05 ◼   ► - There you go.

01:41:06 ◼   ► That was one of mine.

01:41:08 ◼   ► - We maybe need a different explanation.

01:41:10 ◼   ► So the Ricky's is a game connected to host play,

01:41:13 ◼   ► - Something, we need a better sentence there.

01:41:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, multiple times a year.

01:41:18 ◼   ► - Before Apple events or at the beginning of a new year.

01:41:23 ◼   ► - I'm gonna say and beginning of a new year.

01:41:26 ◼   ► - My next question is event/keynote because

01:41:31 ◼   ► - Oh, wait like.

01:41:34 ◼   ► - Just in general like.

01:41:36 ◼   ► - Well, it is keynote chairman.

01:41:38 ◼   ► - Yup.

01:41:40 ◼   ► - So it probably should be before Apple keynotes.

01:41:42 ◼   ► - Keynotes.

01:41:43 ◼   ► though they're technically not that anymore we're just gonna be old-school

01:41:46 ◼   ► that's the language that we choose to use the last thing is like I know I just

01:41:51 ◼   ► have to say it because it just makes more sense to me and I know everyone's

01:41:54 ◼   ► gonna disagree with me like the Rickies is to me it's the Rickies are singular

01:42:00 ◼   ► game but this is the difference between like America and the UK yeah well I just

01:42:07 ◼   ► need for like I need to get this okay and I think Federico needs to make the

01:42:11 ◼   ► deciding decision I'm sure he's gonna go with you but so I just think about this

01:42:15 ◼   ► and the reason I went singular is because I'm the one reading them and I

01:42:21 ◼   ► think now it makes more sense singular to me as well but also there are two

01:42:26 ◼   ► different types of Ricky's yeah but it's a game like it's a single game yeah and

01:42:31 ◼   ► the rules are the same between the different types are they what about the

01:42:35 ◼   ► 365 rule is that still the same well we'll get to that we haven't read the

01:42:38 ◼   ► rules yet. I still, the Ricky's are is in my mind the right way to do it. If you

01:42:43 ◼   ► two both go with is that's fine but I need to get my like protestation out

01:42:48 ◼   ► into the world. And there's nothing saying that you can't say that I just

01:42:51 ◼   ► think the document it should be singular. Yeah I mean I will I there's no way I

01:42:54 ◼   ► can say it I just will it will break in my brain. Yeah because we also do Apple

01:42:58 ◼   ► is versus Apple are which it's the same thing kind of. Well I don't I say Apple

01:43:04 ◼   ► Apple are. Apple are sounds no it sounds wrong every single time. Apple is.

01:43:09 ◼   ► Apple is not a singular organism it is made up of a group of people. It's a

01:43:14 ◼   ► company. No it's a company. Made up of people. It's a company like no it doesn't

01:43:21 ◼   ► matter. It matters in English. We wouldn't say Apple is. We would always say

01:43:27 ◼   ► Apple are. How do you know about language anyway? I mean I speak the language that

01:43:31 ◼   ► that the two of you wish you owned.

01:43:33 ◼   ► - Wow.

01:43:34 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:43:36 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:43:38 ◼   ► - Did you hear that still?

01:43:39 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:43:40 ◼   ► - No, I did and we're moving on.

01:43:41 ◼   ► - He speaks the language that the two of us wish we could.

01:43:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, no, I'm aware of his feelings.

01:43:47 ◼   ► Read the preamble.

01:43:48 ◼   ► Please stand for the reading of the rules of the rookies.

01:43:51 ◼   ► I don't think--

01:43:52 ◼   ► - No, this is not an official--

01:43:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, I was gonna say,

01:43:54 ◼   ► y'all don't have to stand for this

01:43:55 ◼   ► 'cause these aren't the rules yet, right?

01:43:57 ◼   ► This is a suggestion.

01:43:59 ◼   ► So here are the rules for the rookies.

01:44:02 ◼   ► Correct regular picks are awarded with one point.

01:44:05 ◼   ► Everything written down in the prediction document

01:44:08 ◼   ► must come true to earn any points

01:44:10 ◼   ► and no partial points may be awarded.

01:44:12 ◼   ► Correct risky picks are worth two points,

01:44:15 ◼   ► but wrong ones will cause a point to be deducted

01:44:18 ◼   ► from that host total.

01:44:20 ◼   ► Picks must have been approved as risky

01:44:22 ◼   ► by the two other hosts before the start of the game.

01:44:26 ◼   ► Scoring is done during recording

01:44:28 ◼   ► and cannot be modified once an episode is complete.

01:44:31 ◼   ► In the event of a tie, dice by Peacock

01:44:34 ◼   ► must be used in relay FM mode to pick a winner.

01:44:37 ◼   ► Jason Snell has a lifetime ban on flipping any coins

01:44:40 ◼   ► on connected or adjacent podcasts or events.

01:44:43 ◼   ► - I like that you've kept this.

01:44:44 ◼   ► I'm happy this stayed in, it's very important.

01:44:47 ◼   ► - And I needed the adjacent podcast and event

01:44:49 ◼   ► so he doesn't like sneak in a live show with a coin.

01:44:52 ◼   ► Like running on stage with a coin.

01:44:54 ◼   ► - I do feel like it's, actually I will say

01:44:56 ◼   ► It's kind of on-- oh, sorry.

01:44:57 ◼   ► I'll come back to this.

01:44:58 ◼   ► Yeah, the adjacent podcast is tricky.

01:45:00 ◼   ► We can talk about that.

01:45:01 ◼   ► The order of picks is set by previous performance.

01:45:04 ◼   ► For annual rookies, the winner of the previous year's game

01:45:07 ◼   ► goes first.

01:45:08 ◼   ► In the case of keynote rookies, the winner

01:45:10 ◼   ► of the previous game goes first.

01:45:12 ◼   ► In both cases, the loser goes last.

01:45:15 ◼   ► For keynote rookies, the scoring window

01:45:16 ◼   ► starts when the event begins and closes

01:45:19 ◼   ► when the picks are scored.

01:45:20 ◼   ► Any information in scoring must be publicly verifiable