359: DLC to iOS 14


00:00:00   (upbeat music)

00:00:02   Hello and welcome to Connected episode 359.

00:00:11   It is made possible this week by our sponsors,

00:00:13   Fitbod, Memberful and Hover.

00:00:15   My name is Steven Hackett

00:00:17   and I am joined by Mr. Myke Hurley.

00:00:19   - Happy birthday.

00:00:22   - Yes, it is Relay's anniversary.

00:00:24   We will get to that, but happy birthday to you too.

00:00:25   - Is it a birthday or an anniversary?

00:00:27   - We have talked about this a lot

00:00:29   I think we settled on birthday because it was fun.

00:00:34   - Yeah, birthday is a more fun thing than anniversary.

00:00:38   Happy anniversary.

00:00:40   - What is the seventh anniversary gift?

00:00:43   - I don't know.

00:00:44   - Probably like aluminum.

00:00:46   Let's see.

00:00:47   - Seventh birthday gift.

00:00:49   This is the worst.

00:00:50   It's just giving me gifts for seven year olds.

00:00:51   Google sucks.

00:00:52   Turns out it is lollipops based on what Google's telling me.

00:00:59   and Thomas the Train stuff.

00:01:01   We are also joined, of course, back from a week away,

00:01:06   Mr. Federico Vatici.

00:01:08   - Hello, hi, it's good to be back.

00:01:10   Thank you for having me again. - Greetings.

00:01:12   - I thought I was fired from the show, but no.

00:01:15   I still have my keys to the Google document, so.

00:01:19   - That's right.

00:01:20   - Copper and wool are the answers, by the way.

00:01:23   - Okay, interesting.

00:01:24   You know, I have a thing that it's one of those things

00:01:29   that I think Myke will love/hate.

00:01:33   Well, now hate is a strong word,

00:01:35   but one of the things that he doesn't like.

00:01:37   You know how sometimes on Twitter,

00:01:40   you see those tweets from Apple employees

00:01:43   when they come back to the office

00:01:45   and they tweet, "badge still works."

00:01:49   Have you ever seen those tweets?

00:01:50   - Yeah. - Yeah.

00:01:51   - Yeah, it's like-- - I'm okay with that one.

00:01:53   - Oh, you're okay with that one?

00:01:55   - Yeah. - Okay.

00:01:55   - Yeah, 'cause that's not widely used enough, I feel like.

00:01:58   So if you don't know why this is an issue for me,

00:02:01   Myke Hurley hates platitudes.

00:02:03   That's a thing that all my friends know.

00:02:06   I don't like those kinds of off-news phrases,

00:02:08   and I try and stay away from them as much as I can.

00:02:11   I don't know why I refuse to refer to myself

00:02:13   in third person, I apologize.

00:02:16   - Yeah, please don't do that.

00:02:17   - Yeah, that's--

00:02:18   - Myke is sorry, and Myke regrets that.

00:02:20   - No, please don't do that again.

00:02:22   You're continuing to do it, please stop.

00:02:27   So you're saying that badge still works is okay,

00:02:31   fruit company not okay.

00:02:32   - Fruit company not okay.

00:02:34   - Okay.

00:02:36   - Or sometimes after keynotes, people are like,

00:02:37   thanks to the engineers and their families.

00:02:39   Who's thanking the badges?

00:02:41   Thank the badges for once.

00:02:42   - Yeah, who's thanking the badges?

00:02:44   The badges are doing the hard work here.

00:02:46   - Yeah, you got slung around on a dude's belt

00:02:49   and then smashed against a door, that sounds terrible.

00:02:53   - Fruit company.

00:02:56   Okay, I just wanted to make sure.

00:02:57   Anyway, it's good to be back, thank you.

00:02:59   - Thank you, thank you for coming back.

00:03:01   A little follow-up, last week,

00:03:04   Myke and I judged each other's docs,

00:03:06   and we talked at length about how I had a little folder

00:03:10   to make the doc look nice with the Dropbox icon

00:03:14   or the Downloads icon.

00:03:16   Well, JD Davis pointed out on Twitter

00:03:17   that you can just change it from display as stack

00:03:21   to display as folder.

00:03:24   Now you don't see like the little things

00:03:26   peeking out behind it,

00:03:27   but I think it's actually a cleaner look without that.

00:03:29   - This is one of those things where,

00:03:32   at the time when you were explaining this last week,

00:03:35   I didn't really understand what you were doing,

00:03:37   but I felt like I knew this.

00:03:40   'Cause I know that what I thought you were doing

00:03:44   or talking about is a thing that I know that you do,

00:03:47   which is you put stars next to folders

00:03:49   that you want to be at the top of lists.

00:03:51   - That's right.

00:03:51   - And that's what I thought

00:03:52   were referring to last week, not because you just want to have a little folder icon in

00:03:57   your stack on the dock.

00:03:59   Yeah, it was both, you know. And I just want to thank JD Davis for fixing my dock. It's

00:04:08   even a little bit nicer now, so thank you.

00:04:10   You know, while we're talking about folders and lists and stuff like that, I just have

00:04:15   a complaint that I want to get out there into the world, which is about the Dropbox app.

00:04:19   - Oh yeah, that's all you have to say.

00:04:22   Actually, I have one too that you have reminded me.

00:04:24   So you do yours and I'll do mine.

00:04:25   - Maybe it's the same one, who knows?

00:04:27   So the official Dropbox app, it has an alphabetical list

00:04:30   that goes down the right hand side, right?

00:04:32   Lots of apps have this, so if you have a long list

00:04:35   of things, you can kind of like scroll that little list

00:04:37   of your thumb on the side and it will go

00:04:39   through the alphabet.

00:04:40   You know what I'm talking about?

00:04:41   Like you see these all the time in iOS's.

00:04:41   - It's a scrubber.

00:04:43   - Yeah, but it's just for letters, right?

00:04:46   for a long time now, the Dropbox app ignores folders in that scrubber.

00:04:51   So if I want to find a folder, I have to scrub to it manually.

00:04:56   Because if I go down the letters on the right hand side,

00:04:58   it's just looking for files in any particular thing.

00:05:02   So if I'm in my like main top level directory in Dropbox,

00:05:06   I have a few like files in there just like in there that maybe I've just dropped

00:05:10   in to send to somebody else. And it will just,

00:05:11   it only wants to scroll through those like four files throughout the entire

00:05:15   alphabet and ignore the entire list of folders that's in there. Which is a very

00:05:19   common thing in Dropbox is to have folders. Yeah, I don't know why they think people

00:05:23   only want to jump to their files and not the folders that they might have. It sucks.

00:05:28   Alright, so here is my Dropbox complaint. A few years ago Dropbox

00:05:33   redid their branding. We all made fun of it because it's pretty bad. Oh yeah, that

00:05:38   was bad. Still is. If you go to blog.dropbox.com you get a taste of this.

00:05:43   all these different colors and weird typefaces. They have this whole color

00:05:48   palette. Why can't I change their icon on my iPhone to use a different color

00:05:54   palette? I'm stuck with the light blue folder on the dark blue background. Now

00:05:58   the little box icon is smaller and not exactly centered. It's like a little off

00:06:03   center vertically. The icon has gone from bad to worse, but I would like to be able

00:06:08   to customize the colors there. You have all these colors in your brand guide.

00:06:11   just let me let me do it. I feel like I know what Federico's gonna say next.

00:06:17   Why do you have the Dropbox app? Just use files man. Well there is that but I was

00:06:22   gonna say well I think Federico's gonna say is you know how I solved this? Not

00:06:26   using Dropbox. Oh yeah yeah he's a he's a file management hipster. I don't know if

00:06:33   that's the case it's just my assumption so Federico would you like to add to the

00:06:36   conversation? What I like about this is that you're all just saying things that I

00:06:39   I would likely say, and I'm just being quiet.

00:06:42   - Well, this is it.

00:06:42   We're just trying to guess.

00:06:43   What are you gonna go with?

00:06:44   - But honestly, I would say both things, actually.

00:06:47   (laughing)

00:06:48   - We know you well.

00:06:49   - Yeah.

00:06:50   - So yeah, basically these days I just use Dropbox for,

00:06:55   to do the one thing that iCODE drive is still so silly at,

00:07:01   which is creating shareable links for files

00:07:06   that I wanna send to other people.

00:07:08   Yeah, you can do it with iCloud Drive, but it's so complicated.

00:07:12   I don't know, it takes like 10 different clicks in the UI.

00:07:17   I don't use-- I basically don't use Dropbox anymore,

00:07:20   except for when I need to send you guys episodes

00:07:23   for the shows, which is, again, sharing a file.

00:07:27   So I only use it for uploading my audio files

00:07:32   and sharing the random text file or like a zip archive

00:07:38   that I need to send to somebody.

00:07:41   Otherwise, all of my stuff is in iCloud Drive

00:07:44   or in Obsidian, which comes with its own syncing thing.

00:07:51   Sylvia uses Dropbox, so I still pay for a premium account

00:07:54   or whatever.

00:07:56   I don't know, I just really dislike how the Dropbox app has

00:08:01   evolved, what it looks like, the branding is bad,

00:08:05   this obsession for making an OS for collaboration.

00:08:10   No, look, I just wanna have folders and files and versions.

00:08:16   And that was great.

00:08:17   And then you started adding all of these features.

00:08:19   And every single time I open Dropbox,

00:08:21   there's a different splash screen for something else.

00:08:24   It's like, you don't get it, do you?

00:08:26   That I don't care about all these other things.

00:08:28   So, I mean, I don't have a really...

00:08:32   Look, this may sound like a really strong opinion,

00:08:36   but the thing is,

00:08:36   I don't really have a strong opinion about it.

00:08:39   I keep paying for it and eventually I will stop.

00:08:42   But for now it's fine.

00:08:45   I don't love it though.

00:08:46   - Can tell.

00:08:47   Our appeal to the country,

00:08:51   the nation of Luxembourg was successful.

00:08:54   Kentar_Lux on Twitter,

00:08:58   as you can kind of tell from their name.

00:09:01   You can tell they're really proud.

00:09:03   I just realized that now.

00:09:05   You can tell.

00:09:06   Lux is in the name.

00:09:08   He says, "Here's greetings from a real, regular listener from Luxembourg.

00:09:13   I think it's not likely that I'm the one listener from here, though.

00:09:16   Usually only lurking, but you sounded kind of desperate."

00:09:19   Cheers weird fish emoji.

00:09:21   I don't like the desperate part, but you know.

00:09:24   No, I think it's amazing.

00:09:26   Because you guys did sound kind of desperate.

00:09:30   I just needed to prove it.

00:09:32   I was convinced and I was disappointed.

00:09:35   We got another tweet from somebody who I didn't save,

00:09:37   I apologize, but maybe I'll find it in a minute,

00:09:40   who was another person who was in Luxembourg

00:09:43   listening to an episode,

00:09:45   but didn't actually live in Luxembourg at that time,

00:09:48   even though they said they were born in Luxembourg.

00:09:51   - Yeah, we also had a note I saw of somebody

00:09:53   who was born in Luxembourg, but now lives somewhere else.

00:09:57   And so they're like, and they're a listener,

00:09:58   So they're honorary, I guess.

00:10:01   You gotta be in Luxembourg to listen.

00:10:03   - I feel like we potentially stumbled upon

00:10:06   something fun for the show,

00:10:08   and I think we're not thinking big enough.

00:10:11   - That's Sean, by the way, who sent that in to me.

00:10:13   But carry on.

00:10:14   - I think we should now embark on this quest

00:10:18   to find connected listeners

00:10:20   from the most fascinating places around the world.

00:10:25   For example, do we know if we have listeners?

00:10:27   I don't know.

00:10:28   in Andorra, for example, which I believe should be, what, the smallest country in Europe?

00:10:35   Right? Now, that could be challenging, right? To have connected listeners based in Andorra.

00:10:41   Or I don't know, connected listeners in, I don't know, somewhere in Polynesia. Is that

00:10:47   possible? I don't know. Right?

00:10:50   I'm currently logging into our hosting platform again, and I've typed the letters "AND" into

00:10:56   to the downloads by country search list, and currently it's just spinning.

00:11:00   So not feeling great about Andorra, Federico.

00:11:03   Andorra, mmm.

00:11:05   I'm afraid.

00:11:07   I think I've broken their entire system trying to do this.

00:11:10   Okay, I'm sorry.

00:11:12   But I think we should now be on the lookout for listeners from...

00:11:21   I don't want to say the strangest places, right?

00:11:23   Because a place is not strange.

00:11:24   I mean, it may be strange to us, but it's not strange to the people who live there,

00:11:29   right?

00:11:30   But from places that you don't usually hear from, right?

00:11:33   Which makes you appreciate the fact that we have a business on the internet.

00:11:36   How about this then?

00:11:38   Here's a thing that we can do here, because I think I'm settling on where you're going.

00:11:43   Connected listeners, if you think that you are from a strange place, or an unlikely place

00:11:54   that there will be other listeners from.

00:11:56   Yes, yes. That second part is perfect.

00:11:59   Yes.

00:12:00   You should contact us.

00:12:01   Yeah.

00:12:02   And the, we can maybe do this over a period of time.

00:12:07   And I can find out how rare they are based on our audience statistics.

00:12:13   Matt in the discord says, "I'm from Mississippi, does that count?"

00:12:17   Maybe, we'll find out later on, right? We'll find out. So if you think you're from a peculiar

00:12:22   or an unlikely place for a connected listener to be from,

00:12:27   you should send a tweet to us.

00:12:30   What is our account?

00:12:31   Underscore connected FM, right?

00:12:32   That's the Twitter account.

00:12:34   Send it to, you could also include us in a tweet

00:12:36   if you want to as well.

00:12:37   Probably best if you include us all in a tweet,

00:12:38   to be honest.

00:12:40   Let us know and maybe we'll see how this goes

00:12:43   over the next couple of weeks

00:12:44   and the person who is the least,

00:12:47   from the place with the least amount of listeners

00:12:49   will get a prize or some description.

00:12:50   - Yes, we'll do something.

00:12:52   I don't know, but we'll do something. Yeah.

00:12:53   So there you go. If you think...

00:12:56   We will change the colors of the artwork of the show

00:13:02   for that episode to your country's flag or something.

00:13:06   -That's a good one. -That's a good one.

00:13:08   That is good.

00:13:10   Or we'll add just for one episode, the fourth line to the globe

00:13:15   that goes over your country.

00:13:17   That's good too.

00:13:19   But I still want to be able to try and award that person with something,

00:13:22   but we'll work that out later.

00:13:23   But we will definitely do with potential exception is changed the

00:13:28   flag of the show to yours.

00:13:31   All right.

00:13:33   Okay.

00:13:33   That's fantastic.

00:13:34   Uh, should we take a break and then get into some exciting news?

00:13:38   Yeah, sure.

00:13:38   Okay.

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00:16:02   membership. Our thanks to fitbod for their support of connected and relay FM.

00:16:07   Guys, I just realized something terrible.

00:16:10   What?

00:16:12   If we have a listener from a strange place,

00:16:15   and a listener from another strange place,

00:16:18   how do we pick winners?

00:16:20   Well...

00:16:20   We need rules.

00:16:21   The best way to...

00:16:22   No, no, no, no, no. The easy way to pick it is just

00:16:25   I'd look in our hosting platform and just see

00:16:27   the fewest amount of listeners.

00:16:29   But let's say that we have the same listeners from two places.

00:16:34   We know how to fix this. We just coin flip it.

00:16:36   No, I say we establish a rule where we pick the country with the smallest population.

00:16:44   Right, okay, yeah, we do it by percentage.

00:16:48   That makes sense.

00:16:49   Yep.

00:16:50   If we get like that kind of thing.

00:16:51   Do we want to do that in general?

00:16:53   I think so.

00:16:56   That might solve itself, I think.

00:16:58   Yeah, I think we'll just see what sort of things come in and we can kind of figure out

00:17:03   what the best route will be.

00:17:04   Well, don't worry, there'll be established rules. Don't worry, if we could do something

00:17:09   around here, it's rules. Exactly, I just wanted to make sure that we think about this. Okay,

00:17:15   there may come the time where we need to make rules just for this silly thing. Okay. So,

00:17:21   today is August 18th, that is Relay's birthday/anniversary. We've been around for seven years since we

00:17:30   we initially launched, which, whew, seven years.

00:17:35   It feels awesome.

00:17:36   We did a Q&A that you should check out.

00:17:38   It's on the Departures feed.

00:17:40   So go listen to that, RelayFM/Departures/five?

00:17:45   - It is five, yeah.

00:17:46   - So go check that out.

00:17:47   Myke and I did a Q&A.

00:17:48   In the past, we've done it unconnected,

00:17:49   but we did it over there.

00:17:51   But what we want to announce today

00:17:53   is the third annual RelayFM for St. Jude campaign.

00:17:59   There's a link in the show notes,

00:18:01   and you can go and donate now.

00:18:04   The donation window has opened.

00:18:05   We're gonna be running this campaign

00:18:07   through the end of September.

00:18:09   September is National Childhood Cancer Awareness Month,

00:18:11   and we'll talk more about that in the coming weeks.

00:18:14   But we're getting things started today,

00:18:16   and Myke, we've got a couple of fun things coming up.

00:18:20   - Yeah, so maybe a few things to note.

00:18:22   So our goal is $333,333.33,

00:18:27   because it is the third one.

00:18:29   We have our third annual podcast-a-thon

00:18:33   for St. Jude coming on September 17th.

00:18:38   We are starting this year earlier than ever before

00:18:41   at noon Eastern time, and we'll be running

00:18:44   for a record eight hours, baby.

00:18:48   Get in and enjoy.

00:18:50   Twitch.tv/realafm.

00:18:52   We will be with many wonderful guests

00:18:57   and many people you know, maybe some people you don't,

00:19:00   doing tons of fun things for a full eight hours this year.

00:19:05   So we're really putting it to the test,

00:19:07   and that is gonna be the 17th of September.

00:19:10   I have a countdown widget, a WidgetSmith countdown widget

00:19:14   on my iPhone. - Me too.

00:19:15   - And I was horrified today

00:19:17   when it ticked to less than a month, so.

00:19:20   (laughing)

00:19:22   - We have a lot of excellent stuff

00:19:24   planned for the Podcast-a-thon.

00:19:26   gonna be a lot more zany. Is that the word we should use? Yeah. It's going to be

00:19:34   different in good ways. We're planning a lot of very strange and fun things. I

00:19:40   think maybe one of the biggest themes of the Podcastathon this year and actually

00:19:46   most of the campaign is just general bad times for me and Stephen. I think is

00:19:54   maybe the best way to think about it is a lot of stuff going on that is

00:20:00   uncomfortable for us. Yeah. Starting with for every $500 raised

00:20:07   throughout the campaign we need to put a sticker on something. You may have seen

00:20:12   us do this before. We've done stickers, we've done googly eyes. This year for

00:20:17   every $500 raised I need to affix a sticker of Steven's face to something

00:20:24   and he needs to affix a sticker of my face to something of his. I started today

00:20:29   because we've raised a bit of money so far and I now am going to be... so my

00:20:36   studio is constantly in a state of not complete but the one place that I do

00:20:42   feel is pretty complete is my recording desk. It's the thing that aesthetically I

00:20:48   like the most. It is what I am going to be covering Steven's face in to destroy

00:20:53   those aesthetics. So Steven's face will be like, I don't know, just like creeping

00:21:01   up from the corner of my desk from now until the end of September. So yes, this

00:21:07   is a theme of the whole fundraising thing is as Kate said you're gonna be

00:21:12   ruining it. Yes, this is the point because I think people like to see the two of us

00:21:15   get into situations that are amusing and this is one of them. So I'll put, we'll

00:21:19   put some links in the show notes. Stephen is adding stickers of me to... what is that?

00:21:25   It's the edge of my like IKEA bookcase thing in my office and last year we put googly eyes

00:21:30   on it. There were more googly eyes but they kept falling off throughout the year and at

00:21:35   some point I had to stop replacing them. So the top like section is googly eyes and the

00:21:40   next section down would be pictures of you. So it's very upsetting to walk by this piece

00:21:44   of furniture.

00:21:46   So every time 500, this isn't an individual dollar thing,

00:21:50   like an individual donation thing I should say,

00:21:52   it's just every time we pass another $500 raised,

00:21:55   another sticker goes on.

00:21:56   So, you know, we've done some calculations

00:21:58   and we're ready for a terrible time, potentially.

00:22:01   Like if we start, if we meet our goals and stuff,

00:22:04   I guess there's like, I'll cover my monitor stand.

00:22:08   It's just gonna get real messy around here,

00:22:10   will be my expectation.

00:22:12   - Yeah, with me, always watching you.

00:22:15   - It's really creepy. - Get back to work, Myke!

00:22:16   - It's really, oh, it's nice.

00:22:18   It's really creepy already.

00:22:19   - I just want to say I'm really happy to hear this.

00:22:22   First thing, second thing, I would love to help out more

00:22:26   because I feel like it's a beautiful initiative

00:22:30   and I've always kind of regretted

00:22:31   not being able to help out more.

00:22:34   Third thing, if I understand this correctly,

00:22:37   the theme is stuff that makes you uncomfortable, right?

00:22:40   - Mm-hmm. - Okay.

00:22:42   I have some fun ideas that I'll run by you.

00:22:44   - Okay, I love the sound of it.

00:22:45   - And especially one, just the thing.

00:22:49   - Well Federico, here's one thing,

00:22:51   I can tell you one where you can help out more,

00:22:53   like anybody can, you can go to stjude.org/relay

00:22:56   and give us your cash, give us the money.

00:22:59   Come on, stjude.org/relay, go there right now and donate.

00:23:03   This money goes to just an absolutely incredible cause.

00:23:07   You've heard us talk about St. Jude before.

00:23:09   One of the main reasons that we picked this charity

00:23:12   because Steven has such a personal connection to it to the point that now we all do.

00:23:16   And St. Jude is an incredible place and it does incredible things that again you'll be hearing about from us over the coming weeks.

00:23:23   Talking about stickers again though, we're doing something new this year that we haven't done before.

00:23:28   Anybody who donates $100 or more will be able to redeem a sticker pack of their very own.

00:23:35   So you can find it on the fundraising page, you click the rewards button, you can see it.

00:23:39   you will be able to get one of your own Myke and Steven sticker heads, which is fun for you,

00:23:45   I suppose, in case, I don't know. And I guess maybe if you donated a lot of money, maybe you

00:23:50   could cover your own desk in one of these. You'll also get two stickers for the campaign itself,

00:23:57   one of the Relay logo with the gold that we change a lot of our artwork to over the Podcast-a-thon

00:24:02   season. And also you're going to see a cartoon character called the Fever Fighter appearing in

00:24:09   a lot of our campaign work this year. This was artwork created by St. Jude

00:24:14   patient Ethan and so you're gonna see the Fever Fighter pop up in a bunch of

00:24:18   places. It's a great little superhero that can think about helping make kids

00:24:22   feel better. I love Fever Fighter Guy. Mm-hmm. It's fantastic. Very good.

00:24:29   Yeah, I put the sticker reward artwork in the Discord and if you go to the page

00:24:33   you can see it there as well. Yep, go donate. Can I talk about St. Jude for a second?

00:24:41   I would love you to. I would like to do that. So St. Jude has been around for

00:24:46   almost 60 years, it's here in Memphis, but they treat children from all over the

00:24:54   world, and they've been on the front lines of not only care but also research

00:25:00   and treatment for childhood cancer. So they do a lot of research that research

00:25:06   gets shared around the world. Treatments invented at St. Jude, thanks to this

00:25:10   research, have pushed the overall cancer survival rate from 20% to more than 80%

00:25:17   since opening. But that's still one in five children not surviving, so St. Jude

00:25:23   is not going to stop until no child dies of cancer. And there's a lot of kids in

00:25:30   this boat every year. It's estimated that more than 400,000 children worldwide

00:25:34   develop cancer each year with nearly half of them never being diagnosed. So

00:25:38   St. Jude is doing some amazing work in this field around the world. It just

00:25:44   happens to be in my backyard. This is not a Memphis thing. It's not a Tennessee

00:25:48   thing. This is a worldwide effort and so you can join that effort. Join us in this

00:25:53   effort at stju.org/relay. Go, go do it. We're gonna be talking about it a lot

00:26:01   but it's a fantastic course that everybody should give some money to. Yes.

00:26:06   And mark Friday September 17th 12 to 8 p.m. Eastern on your calendar. You can go

00:26:12   to twitch.tv/relayfm and follow the account right now and it will also help

00:26:15   you be notified when we go live. And we're gonna be doing as well a bunch of

00:26:19   of other streams and stuff throughout the course

00:26:24   of the campaign.

00:26:25   So we've got some little milestones on the site right now,

00:26:27   but we'll be talking about those as well.

00:26:29   So me and Stephen will be doing some extra

00:26:31   fundraising streams throughout the month.

00:26:34   - Hey Joe, Joe, go donate to St. Jude.

00:26:38   - There you go.

00:26:38   If Joe can do it, anyone can.

00:26:42   - Yeah, Joe's my imaginary neighbor.

00:26:44   Should we get into some tech stuff?

00:26:46   - Yeah.

00:26:48   So we have seen iOS 15 beta 6.

00:26:52   And of course the question every time

00:26:54   there's an iOS 15 beta, what's going on with Safari?

00:26:57   So Federico, what's going on with Safari?

00:26:59   - Well, what's going on is that they finally listened

00:27:03   and they gave me everything I wanted,

00:27:07   would be my description of it.

00:27:09   So in iOS 15 beta 6, there's a couple major changes.

00:27:14   First one, the bottom top bar design has been changed.

00:27:19   So Apple added a second toolbar

00:27:25   to the bottom of the screen.

00:27:26   So when you're using the new design

00:27:30   with the address bar at the bottom,

00:27:32   the address bar is no longer the only element

00:27:36   displayed at the bottom of the screen.

00:27:38   Now all the buttons that had been previously crammed

00:27:43   into the address bar have been split up again

00:27:46   into a secondary toolbar, just like Safari used to be,

00:27:50   just like we've been arguing for the past few weeks.

00:27:52   So those buttons would be navigation, so back and forward,

00:27:57   share, bookmarks, and tabs.

00:28:02   All of those buttons are now in a toolbar

00:28:04   just above the home indicator on the iPhone,

00:28:07   and then you see the address bar above that.

00:28:11   This is very similar to a design concept by Vidit Bhargava,

00:28:15   the developer and designer of Lookup,

00:28:17   that we mentioned on the show a few weeks ago,

00:28:20   and we said, "Yes, Apple, please do this."

00:28:24   And they pretty much did that.

00:28:27   It's pretty much that design where you have a toolbar

00:28:30   that has all the controls you're familiar with

00:28:33   at the bottom, and the address bar

00:28:35   still toward the bottom of the screen,

00:28:37   still easy to access with your thumb,

00:28:39   especially if you have a big phone, but it's being freed of the responsibility to

00:28:44   handle all those controls. So in the address bar now, you only see a button on the left, which is the sort of the

00:28:53   "everything else" button. This will be the "AA" button for website settings, and there's also an extension icon.

00:29:01   It looks like two buttons. It's actually just one touch target.

00:29:05   So when you open that button, you see a long menu that contains a bunch of options,

00:29:10   including website settings, the privacy report, Safari Reader, and your extensions.

00:29:16   And then you have a refresh button on the right side of the address bar.

00:29:20   You can still long press the address bar, but now you only see three shortcuts if you long press the address bar.

00:29:27   Copy, voice search, which is an interesting one, I'm not sure how many people are gonna voice search, but it's here,

00:29:34   and move to Tab group. Everything else is still available. You can still swipe between tabs

00:29:42   by swiping across the address bar, you still have the grid view for your open tabs,

00:29:48   and you still have your tab groups and your colored toolbar if you want to. But then,

00:29:54   there's a second big change in Beta 6, which would be an option to put the address bar

00:30:02   back at the top of the screen. You can do this in two places. You can do this in the menu that I

00:30:07   just mentioned. It's the very first option. It's called "Show Top Address Bar". Or, you can change

00:30:14   this in Settings. If you go to Settings > Safari, you now have the choice of reverting to the old

00:30:20   design, essentially, where you have an address bar at the top and a toolbar at the bottom. It

00:30:25   It looks just like the old Safari with some new animations for the toolbar.

00:30:30   And if you do that, there's a few elements that change.

00:30:34   For example, if you use the new design with the address bar at the bottom,

00:30:39   when you tap the bookmarks button,

00:30:42   now you see this nice half sheet sort of presentation style

00:30:47   that is new in iOS 15.

00:30:49   And also, fun fact, this style was in Vidit's concept.

00:30:53   Like, it's exactly like a one-to-one match.

00:30:57   But if you choose to use the top address bar and you open the bookmarks view, it's a full-screen

00:31:04   view as it was in iOS 14.

00:31:06   So there's some few differences between the two designs, but overall, I think we got everything

00:31:14   we wanted.

00:31:15   So we got an option to choose between old and new, and for the new design, we got a

00:31:21   a better one that understands... like, I think it's a much better compromise of the vision

00:31:28   for having controls at the bottom of the screen without, you know, the usability concerns

00:31:35   of "we just gotta have a single toolbar at the bottom of the screen". Now you have two

00:31:41   of them. And I understand that some people on Twitter and Reddit, they are upset. Some

00:31:49   minimalism purists appear to be concerned that Apple listened to the "blue checkmarks,"

00:31:55   as they call them on Twitter.

00:31:57   I think it just goes on to show how useful the beta and public beta process can be for

00:32:04   Apple to be able to gather feedback, listen, and iterate beta by beta on design.

00:32:13   If there ever was a need to make a case for why does the beta process exist, Safari and

00:32:20   iOS 15 this summer is your perfect example.

00:32:24   This is why you have the beta, this is why you have the public beta.

00:32:28   I think they have finally landed in a place where, at least for me, the new design clicked

00:32:36   in like five seconds.

00:32:37   Like I saw that and it tapped it around like a couple of seconds, I was like "yeah, this

00:32:41   This works for me now. I'm very happy. What do you guys think?

00:32:47   Well first I want to get a sense from us. Will we be top bar people or bottom bar people?

00:32:55   Bottom. At this point bottom.

00:32:57   Steven? Top or bottom?

00:32:59   I think bottom.

00:33:01   Yeah, I think bottom too. Because I think we were talking about this at the time.

00:33:04   The idea was a good one. Bringing all of the UI down to the bottom makes a lot of sense.

00:33:10   sense, but the implementation maybe went a little too far all at once. I do find this

00:33:18   whole thing to just be very sad. Like I think I said about this before, like this whole

00:33:22   thing just seems like such a waste of people's time. And you know, and I just find it all

00:33:28   just to be very like, I don't really understand what the point was after all of this, to just

00:33:33   be like, oh, well you can basically make it just the same as old Safari. And I've also

00:33:38   I said this before, I actually don't like preferences for things like this. I kind of

00:33:42   feel like just make a decision, you know, or just don't do it, right? And I think I

00:33:46   said this a couple of weeks ago when they started changing the thing on the iPad and

00:33:50   the Mac, right? For like whether the tabs are... I've forgotten. I just forgotten about

00:33:55   the fact that the tabs used to be integrated with the URL bar. I forgot about that mess.

00:34:00   Like, you know, like if you're adding, if you change something, then change it back,

00:34:05   make a setting to change it back to the way that you changed it back from?

00:34:09   What's the point?

00:34:10   You know?

00:34:11   I mean, yeah, some of that stuff is even more noticeable on the iPad and Mac where you can

00:34:16   go back to the compact view.

00:34:20   The only thing that makes me a little nervous about moving the tab bar to the bottom is

00:34:24   that I have to see the really bad extensions icon all the time, that little puzzle piece.

00:34:28   Like, why do we have to see that?

00:34:30   If it leaves at the top of my giant phone, maybe it won't be in my face all the time.

00:34:33   I feel like I haven't seen this icon yet.

00:34:35   I don't know, why do you hate puzzle pieces, Steven?

00:34:37   It's just a bad puzzle piece!

00:34:39   Like, use a good puzzle piece.

00:34:40   So another puzzle piece would be fine?

00:34:42   I think so.

00:34:43   But just not this one?

00:34:44   Just not that one.

00:34:45   I haven't seen this puzzle piece. Where's the puzzle piece?

00:34:47   Well, it's because you're not cool enough to have extensions installed.

00:34:51   Well, I also, again, I wanted to state this,

00:34:53   somebody pointed this out on Twitter and they were completely right.

00:34:56   My plan worked.

00:34:57   I had never put iOS 15 on my iPhone,

00:35:01   iPhone, so I never had to deal with any of this.

00:35:04   Where's the fun in that? Where's the drama in it? You know?

00:35:08   It didn't really seem like you were having a lot of fun Federico, not gonna lie. You

00:35:11   seemed like you were very stressed out about it.

00:35:14   I don't know, I kind of enjoy being a dramatic person from time to time. You know, "Oh, this

00:35:17   is a tragedy. It's all going, you know, terribly."

00:35:21   To use an expression for the show.

00:35:24   As the hat in the Discord is saying, "Where's the passion?"

00:35:27   Exactly, exactly. Now I can bask in the full glory of getting what I wanted.

00:35:35   So, but honestly, I think you asked a really good question, like, what was the point of all this?

00:35:43   And I think, if anything, there's a, this is a, like a, you know that fancy, what's it called, Apple University?

00:35:51   The thing that Apple has internally?

00:35:53   Yes.

00:35:54   makes for a good lesson. This makes for a good case study on how to deal with redesigns in a very

00:36:01   popular application that you ship to millions of people. How to deal with it and how can the beta

00:36:08   process and engaging with the press and engaging with users, how can that help in the future? So,

00:36:14   if anything, this will be useful to Apple internally. Now, I would love to know

00:36:21   how certain debates and discussions went down, right?

00:36:26   It would be genuinely fascinating to be able to be

00:36:31   sort of like the documentary person,

00:36:34   shooting all of these meetings internally at Apple

00:36:37   and seeing, like, how do you deal with this?

00:36:39   Like, you have so many people on Twitter,

00:36:42   Reddit, podcasts, blog posts,

00:36:45   complaining about the design you're so proud of,

00:36:48   And how do you walk it back, if so?

00:36:51   Or how do you tweak it?

00:36:52   How do you reach a compromise?

00:36:54   So if anything, from a design perspective,

00:36:57   I think it's a fascinating story.

00:37:01   From a user's perspective, yeah, all of this

00:37:04   was probably useless, right?

00:37:06   We got upset.

00:37:07   We complained about it.

00:37:09   We talked about it on many episodes of the show.

00:37:13   And now it's all useless.

00:37:14   But was it useless, though?

00:37:16   Was it really?

00:37:17   And it goes back to the passion and the drama.

00:37:20   I think it was a very fascinating process to observe.

00:37:22   I am glad that I didn't write anything for my review.

00:37:28   I am very happy about that,

00:37:30   because now I can approach Safari

00:37:32   with the excitement of having a new option, right?

00:37:36   Having a new setting to choose from,

00:37:38   which is the bottom toolbar.

00:37:40   And this is also a lesson for me.

00:37:43   Like at this point,

00:37:44   I've been doing these reviews long enough

00:37:47   that I have a pretty good sense of which features will find their way to the initial release.

00:37:53   We're going to talk about that in a minute.

00:37:56   And which will not.

00:37:57   But this, like, was, you know, one week after WWDC,

00:38:02   it was obvious enough that this was going to change, right?

00:38:07   And also a pretty good telling sign was when they added the preference.

00:38:13   I believe it was Monterey Beta 2,

00:38:16   to change the design to the old one

00:38:17   with the terminal command.

00:38:20   And I tweeted about it,

00:38:21   how usually when you have a terminal command

00:38:24   to change the design,

00:38:25   usually that's your sign that things are gonna change,

00:38:28   and right on schedule, you know?

00:38:31   It happened once again.

00:38:33   So yeah, but I'm very happy with this design right now.

00:38:38   I honestly, sure,

00:38:40   the shade of the white color of the address bar could be slightly different.

00:38:47   You know, there's all kinds of people in my mansion saying, "Oh my god, it's so ugly!"

00:38:51   The white color... sure. But the key...

00:38:56   I have no idea what people are talking about. What's wrong with it?

00:39:00   Look, honestly, I don't know either. I don't know either what they want.

00:39:03   I just know that this design works. I think it's a good one,

00:39:07   and I'm really happy we got to this place.

00:39:10   - I do hope that they do revisit some of the stuff

00:39:16   on the iPad and the Mac, and particularly the tab design.

00:39:19   It just was like sunken in round wrecks,

00:39:23   and it looks really bad,

00:39:24   especially if you only have one tab open,

00:39:26   and it's still in between the location bar

00:39:29   and the bookmarks bar.

00:39:29   So like, yeah, this is fantastic,

00:39:31   and now the iPhone version Safari is not a travesty,

00:39:34   but they still have some more work to do, in my opinion.

00:39:37   Yeah the iPhone needed the effort though. Like, I'm fine. I quite like Safari on the iPad by and large.

00:39:44   Like it needs tweaks, it's not perfect. But you know, I think we were talking about this.

00:39:48   The iPhone clearly needed a lot of work, or a lot of work to revert.

00:39:53   And they put the effort in there. So a bunch of stuff, bunch of stuff's not making it into

00:39:58   the first version of iOS 15. I think this is being reported on weirdly. I think some people

00:40:05   think it means that these things aren't coming to iOS 15 at all. I don't think that's what

00:40:09   it means. Maybe some of them won't, but I want to give you a list of stuff I got from

00:40:13   9to5Mac. SharePlay, which is arguably the biggest feature of iOS 15, I think. Like,

00:40:22   new thing that they introduced. It's not coming. ID cards in the Apple Wallet app, so you can

00:40:28   put your driving license in there or whatever. The app privacy report, so that, remember

00:40:34   we had that one for Safari, that's not the new one for apps. Custom domains for iCloud

00:40:40   email, 3D navigation in CarPlay, the legacy contacts information, this is who can have

00:40:50   your iCloud account when you die, and it seems potentially Universal Control will not be

00:40:55   making it because Universal Control has yet to appear, which is not good.

00:41:00   nowhere in Monterey at this point, like not even in a preference pane that doesn't work.

00:41:05   That's a great sign.

00:41:06   So what's in 15? Like, I mean, it is, that's a bunch of the big stuff. And Apple could...

00:41:12   Focus modes?

00:41:13   Yeah. Great.

00:41:14   No, look, look, honestly, the best features of iOS and iPadOS 15, I can tell you what

00:41:19   they are.

00:41:20   Please.

00:41:21   Quick note, reminders and smart lists. Focus, new shortcuts actions. That's all you need.

00:41:30   - That's the review.

00:41:31   Review's done.

00:41:32   - That's the review, I'm done.

00:41:33   Goodbye everyone, see you next year.

00:41:35   - See you.

00:41:36   - No, well, so SharePlay, right?

00:41:39   I wanna talk about SharePlay for a minute.

00:41:41   I think it's funny that the gimmicky feature of the year

00:41:45   has been delayed to later,

00:41:48   especially because Apple made a big deal out of it at WWDC.

00:41:53   I'd be keen to know why this is the case.

00:41:57   Is it because it really needs more time?

00:42:00   technically speaking, is it because adoption from big companies hasn't been where Apple

00:42:06   was hoping it would be? I think it's that one. I think nobody's doing

00:42:11   it and if nobody's doing it, what's the point in having it?

00:42:14   Yeah. So, and I kinda, like, I wrote the introduction of my iOS review back in June, and one of

00:42:22   the things that I wrote was, I don't fully understand what the point of SharePlay is

00:42:28   if all countries are more or less reopening, right?

00:42:32   And we're seeing each other again,

00:42:34   and vaccinations are well underway.

00:42:37   And sure, there will continue to be legitimate use cases

00:42:40   for SharePlay and, you know, people who, you know,

00:42:44   relatives who don't live near each other.

00:42:46   I understand that, but to make a big deal out of that,

00:42:51   and it always seemed quite strange as a functionality,

00:42:56   especially because it requires an active FaceTime call.

00:43:00   So I... look, I really don't get the point of SharePlay myself.

00:43:05   I think it's a gimmicky feature, I think it'll go the way of iMessage apps.

00:43:10   But at the very least, Apple believed in iMessage apps enough to roll those out in September with iOS 10,

00:43:17   and SharePlay... look, it was not easily discoverable enough as it was.

00:43:24   But you had a pretty good chance of raising awareness if it was launching alongside iOS 15.

00:43:31   Now I really struggle to imagine who's going to care about it if they roll it out in 15.1 or 15.2.

00:43:38   I think the feature is really harmed by the fact that it has to have an active FaceTime call.

00:43:45   I think that more interesting things could have been done with this technology if FaceTime wasn't a prerequisite of its use.

00:43:53   No.

00:43:55   Then you could do a lot of really interesting things, like gaming experiences and stuff like that.

00:44:03   I think the requirement to have an active FaceTime call is really one of the things that makes this feature not as good as it could be otherwise.

00:44:12   How many games have you played in iMessage?

00:44:17   Oh, I mean me and Steven used to play one for a while and I used to be more the times we stopped playing

00:44:21   Hmm. You never beat me at the iMessage pool and we played a lot of games you never be

00:44:28   Yeah, you destroyed me used to beat me a battleship but not

00:44:30   We haven't played that in a while probably because of that reason base enjoy

00:44:35   Me and Steven may have been the only people ever doing that maybe time remember I remember all those demos

00:44:43   it was like, pick out what you want on your ice cream,

00:44:46   or like pick a time to meet at the movie theater.

00:44:49   It's like, no one's doing this.

00:44:50   - Oh man, I spent so much time,

00:44:52   but let's see, this is the thing about learning your lesson.

00:44:55   I spent so much time back in the iOS 10 days

00:44:58   reading about the deep and open framework

00:45:00   on our message. - Yeah, man.

00:45:02   - And now I learned my lesson.

00:45:04   Now I can spot a gimmick when I see one, right?

00:45:08   And that's what I believe SharePlay is.

00:45:11   And honestly, I'm bummed about screen sharing,

00:45:16   not launching alongside iOS 15.

00:45:18   - That's part of it, huh?

00:45:20   - That's part of it, right?

00:45:21   So that's a bummer.

00:45:23   But for everything else, I mean, honestly,

00:45:25   I'm quite happy because it means

00:45:28   I don't have to write that whole thing for my review.

00:45:32   So iOS 15, is it boring?

00:45:35   That's a good question.

00:45:36   I think it feels, I have this expression

00:45:39   summary in my review. It's also here in the notes. It kind of feels like a DLC to iOS 14,

00:45:46   right? It kind of feels like that. It's an expansion to iOS 14. Which totally makes sense,

00:45:53   right? Because, like, the pandemic happened for everyone, including Apple, obviously. But what

00:46:00   we have here is the same home screen from the iPhone now available on the iPad, right? You have

00:46:09   have the widgets that don't have any new features, but they're not interactive, but you can place

00:46:15   them on the home screen. Some updates to consumer apps. So you have some updates to Safari,

00:46:24   and you have updates to Notes, and you have the new maps, and you have reminders, which

00:46:28   is surprisingly power user-oriented now. I mean, you can do all kinds of filters in reminders

00:46:37   of all apps, which is kind of incredible.

00:46:39   Yeah, it's cool.

00:46:41   Live text, arguably the most popular feature.

00:46:44   I forgot about this before.

00:46:45   I think live text--

00:46:46   Oh, yeah, live text is, I think, the big one.

00:46:50   I think it's query.

00:46:52   So I honestly think that focus and live text

00:46:55   will be the two big features right now,

00:46:59   just because I think they are the kind of features that

00:47:02   can resonate with a lot of people

00:47:04   in just a couple of seconds if you explain it to them.

00:47:07   Like, oh, you can make a custom Do Not Disturb,

00:47:09   and you can capture text with the camera or from a photo.

00:47:13   And like, yeah, that's incredible.

00:47:14   So those are the two, but iOS 15,

00:47:18   looking more and more like iOS 12 or iOS 10, if you ask me.

00:47:23   Which is great.

00:47:24   I mean, honestly, thank you for doing that.

00:47:26   But maybe I could see like a much bigger update next year

00:47:32   at this point.

00:47:33   But look, I'm super happy that it's a smaller thing.

00:47:39   And Safari got fixed.

00:47:40   And Safari got fixed.

00:47:41   So I mean, I'm getting it all.

00:47:45   I'm thrilled.

00:47:46   Yeah.

00:47:47   It's all coming up Federico.

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00:49:36   Federico got so mad with Safari that he decided he needed to use the Samsung web browser going

00:49:43   forward.

00:49:46   Exclusively only Samsung web browser.

00:49:49   Yeah that's how it went.

00:49:51   Yep, Samsung web browser.

00:49:52   Not Chrome, nothing.

00:49:53   Samsung all the way.

00:49:55   the Samsung one, the pre-installed one.

00:49:57   - Yeah.

00:49:58   - Yeah, so as you may have seen on Twitter,

00:50:02   I have right here with me a Samsung Galaxy,

00:50:06   now it's not called the Galaxy, a Z Fold 3.

00:50:09   So this is the new big folding phone that Samsung makes.

00:50:13   And yeah, now this may seem surprising, right?

00:50:18   - Federico has this thing and we can talk about it now

00:50:22   before reviewing Bargo because--

00:50:24   Somehow, Federico got his really early. He ordered like a regular human being.

00:50:30   Like the review embargo for these products is not available.

00:50:34   If you wanted to make a review and put it on YouTube Federico, you would get millions of views.

00:50:39   Just FYI.

00:50:40   Oh, should I?

00:50:41   I mean it's up to you.

00:50:43   Especially if it makes a hissing noise.

00:50:45   Ayo, my iPad's doing that by the way.

00:50:48   It's very scary.

00:50:49   Oh no.

00:50:49   Mm-hmm.

00:50:50   Really?

00:50:51   Yeah, my iPad's hissing at me. I noticed it yesterday.

00:50:54   It's very upsetting.

00:50:55   Hmm, I think it's upset because you're not...

00:50:58   You're using a Mac now.

00:50:59   It's like this, you're like a cat.

00:51:01   It's like, "Boo!"

00:51:02   Yes.

00:51:03   So why did you buy a...

00:51:06   I'm doing it now.

00:51:07   A Samsung Z Fold 3.

00:51:08   Why did you do that?

00:51:09   I think it's important for me to keep my opinions fresh.

00:51:15   To stay informed, to try new stuff,

00:51:18   to know what I'm talking about when I say I prefer iOS to Android,

00:51:22   an android or... just because I think... well, really two main sort of ideas that I think

00:51:30   about. One, I don't want to grow into this kind of old Apple commentator. You see them,

00:51:36   right? And the kinds of people that don't change their mind. There was a great line

00:51:42   from a TV show, I think, that I watched recently with Sylvia called "The Bold Type" on Netflix.

00:51:49   recommended and and the editor-in-chief of this magazine played by the way by

00:51:56   I'm totally going off on a tangent here Melora Hardin she she played Jan thank

00:52:03   you on the office I got office podcast office rewatch podcast son I'm on this

00:52:09   she said something along the lines of you're only as young as the last time

00:52:14   you changed your mind. And that's a very good line, and it really encapsulates how I think

00:52:21   about these things. I don't want to grow into someone who writes about Apple for a living

00:52:26   and only believes the Apple dogma of "things must be done a certain way, everything else

00:52:33   is stupid." And so that's the first idea. And the second one is, I feel like at this

00:52:39   point, iOS and Android, they sort of liberally copy and influence each other, you know? And

00:52:52   you see this with camera features, you see this with portrait video, which Samsung did

00:52:57   a while back and Apple is gonna do that this year. And you see this with Android copying

00:53:02   features from iOS, and vice versa. So I think it's fine that this is happening, because

00:53:07   These platforms are so mature at this point.

00:53:10   What's more interesting, what's more fascinating to me

00:53:13   is the differences between them,

00:53:15   is the implementation differences,

00:53:17   the design differences.

00:53:19   And so I think it's important to stay informed,

00:53:23   to check out other platforms.

00:53:27   I think it makes me a better writer,

00:53:29   and it makes me better at my job, honestly,

00:53:32   to know about this stuff.

00:53:35   And I do this every once in a while.

00:53:36   I like to try different apps, I like to try different systems, I like to try different devices.

00:53:41   I wish more people did that. I think it makes us better tech, I don't know, experts, if you want to use that term, writers, creators, whatever.

00:53:51   Right? I think opening your mind to different things, it makes you a better person in general.

00:53:58   So, anyway, the fold. What do you want to know about it?

00:54:03   Well, I want to know what you think. It's a very interesting product.

00:54:07   Yeah.

00:54:07   I mean, it's very interesting to me because a couple of years ago, when I wanted to talk

00:54:11   about mine, neither of you cared or gave me the time of day back in October of 2019. But

00:54:17   I'm a nice friend and I am genuinely very interested in what you're doing with this.

00:54:22   Why do you have it? What do you think of it? What are your first impressions? All that

00:54:25   kind of stuff. That's what I want to know.

00:54:27   So my first impression is that, like, when you get the phone, at least I could tell almost

00:54:34   immediately that, yes, the folding idea is a really good one.

00:54:39   This is the future.

00:54:40   This is not quite it at the moment.

00:54:43   It still feels like it's like a public test for something more mature and more refined

00:54:50   to be down the road.

00:54:52   But the underlying idea of you have a small screen that becomes a bigger screen, I think

00:55:01   it's ultimately a winning one.

00:55:04   I'm in love with the idea of it's a phone that becomes a mini-tablet, if you need it

00:55:09   to be, it becomes an even bigger phone.

00:55:11   I think the quality of the idea itself is there.

00:55:16   Now the execution is not quite there yet, obviously, because, I mean, sure, the build

00:55:22   quality is great, I think. It's a premium device, it feels very good in the hand.

00:55:29   And they are getting significantly better year over year at the quality that they have.

00:55:34   It really is kind of incredible.

00:55:36   Yes. They're using new, like I read this article on The Verge on how they're using new approach

00:55:44   to sealing the device against water, but dust is still a bit of a problem, right? So Samsung

00:55:51   came up with all these different techniques for sealing the device and make it waterproof,

00:55:56   which is a big accomplishment for something that has a hinge and that opens and closes.

00:56:02   But especially when it's open, it's got this beautiful display, both on the outside and

00:56:08   on the inside, 120Hz refresh rate, I can tell you it's incredible on a small display. It

00:56:15   really does make a difference.

00:56:16   I was at a Samsung store a couple of days ago and they have the units there, and I was

00:56:22   mostly personally interested in the Z Flip, the more regular sized phone that you fold

00:56:29   in half, right? That's my one, I've actually ordered one of those. And on that kind of

00:56:37   screen size, just a regular screen size, it really feels incredible to scroll. It's

00:56:42   so smooth and it feels so responsive. Like I know that people that use Android

00:56:47   phones are like, "LOL, we've been doing this for years." And like there's a good

00:56:50   reason that it's a feature that is deemed to be important by the rest of

00:56:53   the industry, but just Apple hasn't made it work yet. Yeah. So Federico, when you're

00:56:58   using this and thinking about it, do you think of it as a tablet that folds in

00:57:04   your pocket or a phone that just gets bigger when you want it to?

00:57:09   The second one I think. I think it lends itself quite well to being a phone even though the

00:57:15   like the outer display is quite it's quite strange right it's it's this narrow and tall

00:57:22   display that you know it makes for a weird-looking phone but you can use it as a phone and that's

00:57:31   a thing and you can use the cameras you can use you know you can take some pretty good

00:57:35   pictures with it.

00:57:37   This is the big difference between my original one and your third generation one is on the

00:57:42   original fold the outside screen was kind of like if you have to you can use it because

00:57:48   it was way smaller but over time they have made it bigger and bigger and they've changed

00:57:53   the way the phone is kind of shaped in such a way that it's effectively just like a regular

00:57:58   phone on the front now.

00:57:59   which is kind of incredible.

00:58:01   - And you have, again, you have this narrow display,

00:58:03   which makes for a weird browsing experience.

00:58:06   For example, browsing the web

00:58:08   and you have these compact layouts for web pages, right?

00:58:11   And you have this tiny home screen,

00:58:13   but it's totally usable.

00:58:15   It barely, I think it barely hits the threshold of,

00:58:19   you know, is it usable as a phone,

00:58:21   even though it's got this narrow display?

00:58:23   And I think it is usable as a phone.

00:58:25   Obviously it would be preferable if it were wider,

00:58:28   But then again, you're supposed to follow this thing, right?

00:58:31   So I think of it as a phone that can get bigger if I want to.

00:58:35   And that's sort of what fascinates me about this,

00:58:37   which is you can use it to quickly check on things, right?

00:58:42   But then if you want, you can take your task

00:58:44   and put it on a much bigger sort of display

00:58:48   and multitask with it.

00:58:49   And that's really, to me, the fascinating aspect of this is

00:58:54   It's a phone that can become something else that is approaching tablet territory.

00:59:00   And now I should say I haven't spent enough time really digging into this over the past couple of days because we're so busy with the with the upcoming Mac storage launch.

00:59:10   But the first thing you noticed, if you're someone like me,

00:59:15   who hasn't used Android in a while and isn't as well versed

00:59:22   in the Android ecosystem as maybe in the iOS one,

00:59:26   multitasking is wild on Android.

00:59:30   And especially on the fold, I don't know if it's Samsung

00:59:34   adding their custom touches to the UI,

00:59:38   But, oh my god, you can do all kinds of layouts.

00:59:42   And it's like, imagine the--

00:59:45   think about the sort of the rigidity of multitasking

00:59:49   on an iPadOS and all of these limitations

00:59:52   that Apple puts in place.

00:59:54   And now think of the opposite of that for the Fold and Android.

01:00:00   So you can pick up apps, and you can put them anywhere.

01:00:04   You can have a split layout vertically, horizontally.

01:00:09   You can put things in a corner.

01:00:11   You can have two apps in the same split.

01:00:14   So you can have two small squares.

01:00:18   You can put apps in a floating pop-up view.

01:00:22   So in theory, you can put up to eight apps on screen

01:00:26   at the same time, plus one floating above them,

01:00:31   which is like a little pop-up.

01:00:33   I tried this yesterday and I had Google Chrome open on one side.

01:00:38   On the other side, I had Apple Music for Android and Discord.

01:00:44   So there were like three apps.

01:00:46   And then floating on top of them, I put the Play Store.

01:00:50   So I was like, "Oh my God, this is incredible."

01:00:53   and you can grab the splitter in between the apps

01:00:58   and freely resize the window.

01:01:02   And then it gets even more wild,

01:01:05   because you can force, like you can go into settings,

01:01:08   and you can force every app to support multi-window,

01:01:13   even though the developers did not optimize for that layout.

01:01:16   You can tell the system, I don't care,

01:01:18   disregard what the developers thought of their application,

01:01:22   and let me force it into that view.

01:01:24   And you can do that.

01:01:25   And now one of the new features of the Fold this year

01:01:29   is you have this dock.

01:01:30   I believe they call it the taskbar or the pin bar.

01:01:35   Anyway, it's like a dock where you can pin

01:01:37   your favorite apps and you can swipe

01:01:40   from the right edge of the screen to see this dock

01:01:43   and you can grab apps from the dock,

01:01:44   sort of like an iPad,

01:01:46   and you can drag them anywhere on screen.

01:01:48   And I don't know, we talked a few minutes ago

01:01:51   about Safari on iOS is adding a preference.

01:01:56   And Apple is usually, you know, that may appear strange

01:02:00   because Apple is usually against preferences.

01:02:03   But I feel like there's a fundamental difference

01:02:07   between what Apple is doing,

01:02:08   which is adding a single preference,

01:02:11   and what you see on Android when you try this stuff,

01:02:14   which is, oh yeah, preferences?

01:02:16   We have a grab bag full of those.

01:02:18   Here you go, go wild with the system.

01:02:21   It's like there's a setting for everything,

01:02:24   and then you can go to the Play Store,

01:02:26   and you can install modifications for the system, right?

01:02:31   So Myke just told me a few minutes ago

01:02:33   you can install custom launchers.

01:02:35   You can install things that replace the system itself,

01:02:40   the home screen itself.

01:02:42   - Yeah.

01:02:43   - And honestly, coming from iOS,

01:02:45   when I see these people on Twitter saying,

01:02:47   "Oh, Apple is adding a preference,"

01:02:51   And I'm like, yeah, that's probably fine.

01:02:52   When the competition has 50 different options in settings,

01:02:57   adding one for your browser is probably OK.

01:03:02   - I honestly feel like you had loads or you had none.

01:03:04   That's kind of like, I appreciate what the companies

01:03:09   on the Android do, especially Samsung.

01:03:11   They're just making it work, right?

01:03:12   So there's gonna be preference for everything.

01:03:14   And then you're used to that as the user.

01:03:16   There's preferences for everything.

01:03:18   I think Apple's, like, allergy to preferences

01:03:21   makes it more weird to me when they do add one.

01:03:24   - But this brings me to my other point

01:03:26   about trying to fold, and then I'm gonna have,

01:03:29   I have a couple more fold-specific things to share.

01:03:32   But as an iOS person, it's all very daunting at first

01:03:37   to understand Android and sort of this freedom that you have

01:03:43   and all of these options that the system just gives to you

01:03:48   without any warning, without any guidance.

01:03:55   - Is this your first Android phone?

01:03:57   - No, but the last time I tried one was four, five years ago.

01:04:02   We talked about it on the show, so it's been a while.

01:04:04   - All right.

01:04:05   Yeah, but now you're in a foldable world, so it's even-

01:04:09   - Now it's a foldable one.

01:04:10   So on the more fold-specific things,

01:04:14   I really like how we can start something

01:04:18   on the small screen outside, and you can take it inside.

01:04:23   You can start it in phone mode, and then you can say,

01:04:27   oh, no, this needs more work.

01:04:28   They call it App Continuity is the name of the feature

01:04:31   from Samsung.

01:04:32   It's a really good name.

01:04:33   And you can say, OK, now I need to actually get more work done.

01:04:37   And then you open it up, you fold it open,

01:04:39   which is, by the way, a very satisfying thing to do.

01:04:42   And honestly, it's just so cool, right?

01:04:44   You're folding a computer, and you're opening up the screen,

01:04:49   and you're taking the same task, and you're making it bigger.

01:04:52   And it's just so neat when you do that.

01:04:55   And so I think that's super fascinating.

01:04:58   The crease in the middle of the screen,

01:05:01   you can see that from multiple viewing angles.

01:05:05   It's kind of weird and you can feel it with your finger, where the screens fold.

01:05:12   It's kind of weird and amusing at the same time, because you can literally see this crease in the middle of the screen

01:05:21   and you can feel it with your fingers when you swipe across the display.

01:05:26   The Fold3 has an under the display camera.

01:05:32   I have so many questions about this.

01:05:34   In the bigger... so when it's open, when you have the big screen open,

01:05:40   they don't have a punch hole camera anymore. They don't have a notch. They have an under the display sensor.

01:05:47   It's weird, man. I can tell you that. It's a weird thing. You see, it's like a bunch of small dots

01:05:56   open in a corner of the right side of the display.

01:06:02   And you can totally see that thing. It's actually like I can't help but look at it, right?

01:06:09   It's this collection of sensors like this differently colored pixels under the display

01:06:16   That are actually a camera now

01:06:20   It's pretty cool. How

01:06:22   Say when you lock your device

01:06:25   And it's open right you're locking the device in in tablet mode and when you unlock it again

01:06:32   You can see the unlocking animation for face authentication.

01:06:38   You see this white indicator scrolling around under the display camera.

01:06:45   And that's pretty neat.

01:06:46   But face authentication for Samsung sucks compared to Face ID.

01:06:51   Like, the accuracy just isn't there yet.

01:06:55   And same with Touch ID.

01:06:56   The fingerprint sensor, not as accurate as Touch ID on, say, the iPad Air, for example.

01:07:01   Which fingerprint sensor does it use? Is it on the screen?

01:07:05   No, it's a button on the side.

01:07:06   Okay.

01:07:07   Yeah, but it's not as good as the button on the iPad Air, the 2020 iPad Air.

01:07:12   I think that's a much better fingerprint button.

01:07:15   The selfie camera, the under the display one, you can totally notice it.

01:07:21   It's kind of distracting and it takes pretty horrible pictures.

01:07:25   But Samsung does a bunch of things, sort of like smart processing,

01:07:29   to make those slightly better, like they adjust the exposure, the contrast, they do some sharpening

01:07:36   I believe, so they make those pictures look decent enough, but they're not really good selfies.

01:07:43   Still, it's pretty cool that it's under the camera and you don't have a punch hole, you know, thing,

01:07:50   you don't have a notch, it's a single display, but I think this is very early technology. So,

01:07:57   I guess this will get better. Right now it's kind of distracting because you can see those pixels always there and

01:08:03   The pictures are not that great, but it's pretty cool

01:08:07   Haptic feedback surprised me. Pretty good haptic feedback on this device. Like you can you know, and I

01:08:16   I don't know why I'm surprised but I was under the impression that Oli Apple could do like

01:08:21   decent haptic feedback with the Taptic Engine on the phone, this is actually pretty good.

01:08:26   You can feel the haptic feedback when you type on the keyboard on Android. That's a thing. You can disable it if you want to.

01:08:32   But you can also feel it when you press the multitasking buttons, for example. You know, a bunch of different UI elements

01:08:39   they play haptic feedback, which is nice.

01:08:41   And then yeah, it all comes down to the multitasking.

01:08:45   One of the main issues at this point is that the Android ecosystem

01:08:51   isn't really well optimized for folding devices. Like if I go to the Play Store,

01:08:56   it doesn't tell me this application has been optimized for tablet mode and folding device mode for Samsung.

01:09:03   So what I'm doing is I'm just googling "best apps for Z-fold"

01:09:08   and I'm coming across Reddit threads of other users recommending apps that take advantage of this form factor.

01:09:16   It seems to me like the way Samsung is trying to fix this is sort of brute forcing their approach

01:09:23   Which is that feature that I mentioned of ignoring whether or not an application supports multi window and just saying

01:09:31   Let me put this app in this layout even though the developer did not support it, right?

01:09:36   So what I'm doing is I'm using these weird setups

01:09:40   With a super small Apple music window or a super small discord

01:09:46   thing in the corner of the screen. Now, would I want to have this kind of much

01:09:55   more complex multitasking on the iPad or on the iPhone? I think maybe not to this

01:10:02   extent. Yeah, somewhere in the middle. Somewhere in the middle though. I think, I

01:10:07   haven't tried this and obviously working on iOS and iPadOS every day, I think

01:10:13   there's maybe a bit more that Apple could do, like maybe three apps on the

01:10:17   iPad and I'm just gonna say it, on the big iPhone maybe split view would be

01:10:23   fine at this point, like one app on top of the other, maybe that would be okay.

01:10:29   For sure it would be fine. You know? They should have done that a long time ago.

01:10:33   And more broadly speaking to sum up, I think the folding form factor is the

01:10:40   future. I think once you do this thing of "it's a small screen" and then you open it and it becomes a bigger screen, it's not just that it's a cool gimmick. I think it's genuinely useful, even from a productivity standpoint of like, I'm jotting down a quick reply in Gmail, and then I realized, "Oh, I need to bring in some attachments. This is

01:11:09   uncomfortable let me open the screen because I want to do a split view.

01:11:13   That's honestly like a great feature to have. The main problems right now are you

01:11:19   know it's a thick device it's a chunky device and the Android ecosystem is kind

01:11:23   of weird about it. Mm-hmm. I mean in a lot of ways they're pushing against the

01:11:28   Android ecosystem in ways that no one else is and Samsung's in that for a long

01:11:34   time but with these foldable phones it's really to a greater extent I think. I do

01:11:41   find the multitasking differences super interesting but one thing I hadn't

01:11:46   considered that you mentioned is the the haptic feedback because that's just

01:11:49   non-existent on the iPad right? There's nothing and so maybe that's one

01:11:54   reason it jumps out to you as well because you're kind of a tablity thing

01:11:57   that's that's vibrating in your hand and I wish it would come to the iPad I think

01:12:02   I think it makes maybe a little less sense now that

01:12:05   Force 3D Touch Press is gone, but

01:12:09   I think this shows that you can use it to

01:12:13   back up what's going on visually in the UI

01:12:16   in a way that makes it easier to understand what's going on.

01:12:19   Yes, that's a very good point.

01:12:23   And the last thing that sort of drives us into the next topic is

01:12:30   This device makes me have a newfound appreciation for cross-platform apps.

01:12:40   Because one of the things that I love about this is that you know what the first app I installed on this thing?

01:12:49   You know what it was?

01:12:50   Obsidian.

01:12:51   And all my notes and all my plugins and all my custom things, they just synced over to this device.

01:13:00   I didn't even know there was an Android.

01:13:03   Oh yeah, it actually has more features than the iOS one.

01:13:06   Well, I'm not surprised.

01:13:07   It's easier.

01:13:08   It's easier for them to--

01:13:09   it's easier, I assume, for the developers of Obsidian

01:13:12   to add things to the Android version than the iOS version,

01:13:15   I would naturally assume.

01:13:16   Yeah, and same with my task manager.

01:13:20   You know, todoist, it's here.

01:13:23   Discord, it's here.

01:13:24   Twitter, same deal.

01:13:26   So I think it's nice--

01:13:28   One password.

01:13:28   One password, it's here.

01:13:31   The second app I installed, one password, it's here.

01:13:33   So yeah, I have some fun ideas.

01:13:37   I'm pretty sure at this point,

01:13:38   I'm the only Obsidian user in the world with a Z fold.

01:13:43   So I, you know.

01:13:46   - Well again, you have this phone

01:13:49   nearly two weeks sooner than you should have.

01:13:52   This phone does not start shipping until August 27th.

01:13:56   I do not know how you got it.

01:13:58   Yeah, I don't know, I should do something about this.

01:13:59   I think I should.

01:14:00   I think I should.

01:14:01   I think you should.

01:14:02   I think it's cool.

01:14:03   It's thick, expensive.

01:14:05   I would not recommend this device to normal people,

01:14:10   but it's a very exciting glimpse of the future.

01:14:15   I think Myke told me this a couple of weeks ago.

01:14:17   It kind of feels like big phones a few years ago

01:14:21   before Apple got into big phones, right?

01:14:24   And you could tell, oh yeah, this thing,

01:14:26   that this is gonna be it, this is gonna be the future.

01:14:29   - This is what Samsung does.

01:14:31   - Yeah.

01:14:32   - This is their whole thing.

01:14:33   Like, they push the technology forward.

01:14:36   - And I mean, the UI is pretty atrocious, right?

01:14:39   The way that like, I really don't think Samsung

01:14:43   has got any style when it comes to the--

01:14:44   - Oh man, you're so funny to me.

01:14:47   What they're using now, One UI,

01:14:49   it's like a breath of fresh air

01:14:52   compared to what they've come from.

01:14:53   So it's so funny to me to hear you say you don't like it.

01:14:56   Like, it is so much better.

01:14:59   -Oh, it used to be worse? -Oh, so much worse.

01:15:02   -Really? -So much worse, yeah.

01:15:04   Well, okay. Well, I'm thankful I'm trying it now, then.

01:15:10   [Laughter]

01:15:12   But, yeah, look, I...

01:15:14   All this to say, really,

01:15:16   this doesn't mean I'm switching to Android.

01:15:18   It just means I'm an adult,

01:15:20   and I'm open to trying different things,

01:15:22   Which I I wish more people in our industry tried sometimes so it's exciting and it's fun

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01:17:21   Yes, you have heard everybody speak about it by now.

01:17:24   And yes, we're going to speak about it too.

01:17:26   1Password 8.

01:17:28   There has been a developer, kind of like a beta preview version of 1Password 8

01:17:33   that was released over the last few days.

01:17:35   The big headline feature, I mean there's a bunch of things that are changing,

01:17:38   changing but the big thing is grabbing all the headlines is that Agilebits is

01:17:42   moving to Electron for their applications. I don't think we need to

01:17:50   rehash the whole thing. I gave more of a like if if you don't know what any of

01:17:54   that means on upgrade 366 I kind of went into a bit more detail I think we'll

01:17:58   just assume for the sake of this conversation that people maybe have a

01:18:02   bit of familiarity about what all this means. I kind of am intrigued from the

01:18:06   two of you to maybe before we talk about 1Password specifically, how do you feel

01:18:13   about Electron? I've kind of changed my thoughts and feelings about that

01:18:20   over the years. It's complicated because I feel like it's one of those things

01:18:24   where you cannot just... there isn't just a single truth. It's not a

01:18:29   a simple argument. But I feel like a lot of people tend to think about this in a pseudo-religious

01:18:43   way, almost as if anything that is not AppKit or UIKit or SwiftUI is inherently bad. And

01:18:53   And I just feel like it's not that. I think it comes down to a case-by-case basis.

01:19:04   I understand how on Apple platforms specifically, there is this common, quite shared belief

01:19:16   in the superiority of native UI frameworks and toolkits, right?

01:19:23   It comes down to the history of the Mac and really the, if you will, the boutique nature

01:19:30   of some apps for Mac, which is also reinforced by the company itself.

01:19:37   The company that makes the computer also awards developers of apps that make software for

01:19:44   the computer by giving them a physical trophy if they use native UI tools.

01:19:50   Oh my god, that's so funny.

01:19:52   Right?

01:19:53   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:19:54   So it's a sort of a cycle that reinforces itself on an annual basis, because those trophies

01:20:01   are handed out every year.

01:20:03   And so I think it's sort of a... it's built into the platform itself to reinforce that

01:20:12   belief.

01:20:14   But I also feel like, in 2021, there isn't just one right way to make software, right?

01:20:28   Because not all companies are boutique companies.

01:20:33   Not all companies need to be small indie shops.

01:20:38   Some companies, they want to reach as many users as possible.

01:20:42   Some companies, they want to make sure that their software can be installed on multiple

01:20:49   platforms.

01:20:51   And I think it's only natural, if you want to do that, to use something like Electron.

01:20:58   Because we, as a, you know, like it or not, we as a species, we haven't come up with a

01:21:06   single programming language and UI language that is shared by all major vendors, right?

01:21:15   In an ideal world, you would write an app in a native language and Windows, MacOS, and

01:21:20   Linux computers would be optimized for it.

01:21:23   Yeah, that's the dream, right? So many companies. Apple are trying to make this dream. It is

01:21:28   worth noting, right? They spoke about that, like, iJawbits wanted to try and use Swift

01:21:33   UI for the Mac app like they are for their iPhone app, which I do think might be a little

01:21:38   early for Swift UI on the iPhone app as well, but you know, to you guys. But they couldn't

01:21:44   make it work on the Mac, or they would have, and then this is the next option for them,

01:21:49   because they don't want to develop for every platform.

01:21:52   So ideally that would be the case, but it's, you know, it's not possible, and the common

01:22:01   denominator that we as humans have come up with is web language. And so tools like Electron,

01:22:08   I think they make sense for those kinds of companies. And now, I also understand, now

01:22:14   you see why this is a complicated discussion, because I also understand that certain Electron

01:22:21   apps, when you run those on an Apple platform, really any platform, they don't have great

01:22:29   performance and that is true. Some of them are not good enough. Some of them honestly suck.

01:22:36   But that is the trade-off you gotta be willing to accept. Do you wanna use software that is available

01:22:46   on any kind of computer you wanna use? Or do you wanna use something that is more specific to your

01:22:52   platform. And I've reached the point where, I mean, I've been doing Mac stories for 12

01:23:00   years. I would have never imagined years ago, if you ask me, that my text editor one day

01:23:09   would have been an Electron app, because that's what Obsidian is. And I chose to use it because

01:23:18   in return for certain, you know, in exchange, I guess, for some weird behaviors. And Non-Native

01:23:27   UI, what I get, is a rich ecosystem of third-party plugins, people making cool stuff for it,

01:23:36   because it's not available on just one platform.

01:23:40   And now... So, before we talk about 1Password specifically, I feel like that's how... that's

01:23:48   That's where I stand on Electron.

01:23:50   I don't think it's the devil.

01:23:52   I don't think you have to give up.

01:23:58   I don't think you should lose your Apple street cred if you say Electron is good for some

01:24:05   apps.

01:24:07   I think it's fine.

01:24:09   I think it comes down to the kind of software that you want to use.

01:24:14   What does it say about Apple and SwiftUI that a company like AgileBits was not able to make

01:24:22   a native version of 1Password 8?

01:24:24   That's a different discussion.

01:24:26   But I think Electron has a place for some kinds of apps, and honestly, I wish that people

01:24:33   were less religious about it, especially in the Apple community.

01:24:38   I want to jump on the screen, I do here for a minute.

01:24:40   - Listen, I'm not talking about you, of course.

01:24:42   I'm talking about other people.

01:24:44   I think electron is bad is something

01:24:47   that some people have said,

01:24:48   and it has just been taken as a belief,

01:24:50   like universally, that electron is bad,

01:24:53   even if people can't necessarily point out

01:24:56   exactly why they think it's bad.

01:24:58   They just heard it was enough times.

01:25:00   That it was said.

01:25:01   What is that, there's like a thing about this, right?

01:25:03   Like if you say something loud enough and often enough,

01:25:06   it becomes truth or something like that.

01:25:08   I think this might be one of those things.

01:25:10   Like, there are bad apps made in Electron,

01:25:14   good apps made in Electron.

01:25:16   I don't think it makes a difference.

01:25:17   There are bad apps made in AppKit.

01:25:19   Like, I use a bunch of them.

01:25:21   They're ugly.

01:25:22   Right?

01:25:23   Like, it just is what it is and what developers make of it.

01:25:31   I don't know why I could say Electron apps are bad.

01:25:35   It's just they are what they are.

01:25:36   You know what?

01:25:37   like Electron apps are also as Federico was saying really extensible and really

01:25:42   interesting and well supported and if it didn't exist you wouldn't have a bunch

01:25:46   of apps right like you just wouldn't yeah a bunch of companies wouldn't give

01:25:49   you a Mac version because you know why in the overall computing landscape the

01:25:54   Mac is probably the smallest yeah like less than the iPad probably maybe I

01:26:00   don't know but definitely less than the iPhone definitely less than Android

01:26:04   definitely listen PC and so it's a case of like maybe electron app you don't

01:26:10   like no app yeah you choose not not having slack is worse and this is not

01:26:17   like I'm not we're not coming out here to be like time to defend agile bits

01:26:21   like the thing for me here is like the writing was on the wall here when they

01:26:25   took that VC money right and I think a lot of us had to make a decision then of

01:26:29   like will we continue to follow one password into this part they're taking

01:26:32   because they very clearly signal to everyone that they were becoming a different company.

01:26:37   It started with subscriptions and then moved on from there.

01:26:41   And this is like, so I kind of am starting to feel like 1Password like I feel like Dropbox

01:26:46   and Slack.

01:26:47   Hey, this is a big company that doesn't necessarily want my individual business, but they'll take

01:26:52   it.

01:26:53   Like, and that is very different to what I used to think about 1Password before.

01:26:57   And so when they did this, I didn't think they were going to do it, but I also wasn't

01:27:01   surprised. The same as like this this next version is gonna turn off basically

01:27:06   any way to use the app other than a subscription. I didn't think they were

01:27:10   gonna do it but I'm not surprised and I can I think that it's frustrating and

01:27:14   I'm sure I can imagine for a lot of people like it this kind of thing is

01:27:18   frustrating but I'm also kind of like it seemed like to me the writing was on the

01:27:23   wall you can still choose to be upset about it but you can't be surprised by it.

01:27:26   I thought that was already the case, honestly, that you could only use it with a subscription.

01:27:31   Yeah, I mean, because we all moved to them a while ago for good reasons, like because

01:27:35   the business account stuff is so good and the shared family stuff is so good, so we

01:27:39   all moved to that. And I said this on Upgraded and I'll repeat it here, I use so many applications

01:27:45   by choice that are not native Mac apps, right? Or that don't look like native Mac apps, because

01:27:51   I want the services that they provide. And what Federico was just saying about cross-platform,

01:27:56   I care about that more.

01:27:58   That's what I care about more.

01:27:59   I think that the families and small business stuff does show that Agile Bits still wants

01:28:09   individual people to be using their thing.

01:28:10   I just mean like, I think it moves that way over time.

01:28:16   You can get an individual and team and family Dropbox, but really what they want is to get

01:28:23   the enterprise and that's what Agile Bits wants as well.

01:28:25   - Yeah, and they've said as much.

01:28:26   - They'll take my business and they'll support it

01:28:28   and they'll be happy.

01:28:29   What they really want is those 10,000 seat licenses.

01:28:32   - Right, and they have said as much,

01:28:34   so it's not us reading into that.

01:28:37   The other thing I would just bring up

01:28:40   with the Electron thing, and Myke, you touched on it,

01:28:43   is that it is how we have a lot of software on the Mac.

01:28:48   And it's hard to know what would happen

01:28:51   or what is happening, depending on what you believe,

01:28:53   in alternate timelines where maybe Electron wasn't a thing.

01:28:57   Would that have made Apple bring something like Catalyst

01:29:02   to the front more quickly?

01:29:04   Where you could bring iOS software,

01:29:07   iPad software in particular, over to macOS.

01:29:11   You know, Apple's whole strategy there is really messy

01:29:14   and I think it's confusing to know what to pick

01:29:16   if you're writing a new Mac app.

01:29:18   But these companies that are really making services

01:29:22   wrapped in applications, Electron is the obvious winner

01:29:25   because the Mac is just small.

01:29:27   Now, if it truly was the single checkbox

01:29:30   that Apple said it was to make a good Catalyst app,

01:29:34   maybe that would be different,

01:29:37   but it's hard to know what that would be.

01:29:42   And so this is the situation that we're in.

01:29:44   Electron certainly isn't perfect,

01:29:46   and certainly there were some terrible versions of it.

01:29:48   And certainly I think the best Electron apps

01:29:52   aren't as nice to use as apps

01:29:55   that are using more native UI frameworks.

01:29:59   But like we said, if this is how it goes,

01:30:01   then it's really on Apple to make this decision

01:30:06   less enticing to companies.

01:30:10   And we can talk about that,

01:30:11   but I think that ultimately, yes,

01:30:14   Agilent's made this decision,

01:30:15   and yes, reading their blog post about it,

01:30:18   it seemed like their development

01:30:19   was really mismanaged for a long time.

01:30:21   Some wacky stuff about how one version of one password

01:30:25   would get a feature and another team working

01:30:28   on another version of one password

01:30:29   would find out about it in the blog post.

01:30:31   Like that is-- - Yeah, it's terrible.

01:30:32   - That's really bad.

01:30:34   And so hopefully in this they're also looking

01:30:36   at how they develop their software

01:30:37   because whoever's job it was to do that,

01:30:40   didn't do a good job.

01:30:41   - Well, maybe the way you fix it is unified platforms.

01:30:44   So now anyone's feature just gets added in.

01:30:47   - I thought about it this morning in prep for the show.

01:30:49   Like they, you know, a lot of people work there.

01:30:51   I hope that the team that was doing AppKit development,

01:30:56   like I hope they're okay.

01:30:59   Like they, 'cause they mentioned they brought in

01:31:01   a lot of Rust developers 'cause using Rust for the backend

01:31:04   and I don't know enough about that to make a comment,

01:31:07   but it's like, oh, I know at one point you had a whole bunch

01:31:10   of people working in AppKit and I hope that they got

01:31:14   repurposed and weren't let go.

01:31:16   'Cause that would be a real bummer of a thing

01:31:20   to have happen.

01:31:21   - See, you mentioned Catalyst a moment ago,

01:31:22   which just made me think of something.

01:31:23   I would like to issue a personal challenge to AgileBits.

01:31:27   Considering you're a subscription product

01:31:28   and it doesn't matter where I give you my money, just if,

01:31:32   make the iPad app available on the Mac.

01:31:34   Let me just check the checkbox.

01:31:40   And if I would prefer to use something

01:31:42   that would more better run, potentially,

01:31:45   then Electron, as people might say, or not, let me do that.

01:31:50   Like it doesn't matter to you what app I use,

01:31:52   I'm giving you my money either way,

01:31:53   because it's a subscription product.

01:31:55   So let me see what the iPad app will be like on an M1 Mac.

01:31:59   - Two more things I wanna say quickly.

01:32:04   First one is, I think a lot of people I've seen on Twitter

01:32:07   complaining about 1Password 8 and Electron

01:32:10   have not actually tried 1Password 8.

01:32:14   Look, 1Password 7 wasn't perfect.

01:32:17   I think a lot of people come from the assumption

01:32:20   that 1Password 7, because it was native,

01:32:22   that it was perfect, it really wasn't.

01:32:24   1Password has had these weird UI glitches

01:32:27   and odd behaviors, at least for me, for quite some time.

01:32:30   1Password 8, I put it on my Mac, on my Intel Mac Mini.

01:32:36   Look, it's honestly fine.

01:32:41   I've basically exchanged one weirdness for another.

01:32:46   I don't really see what the big deal is.

01:32:49   Performance in Activity Monitor with this first beta

01:32:53   seems okay.

01:32:54   The new design is quite nice.

01:32:58   Some new colors, some new sections in the sidebar.

01:33:00   I'm pretty sure that, you know,

01:33:03   I would say 70% of the people who are complaining about this

01:33:06   have just seen the word Electron

01:33:08   and they fired off some tweets

01:33:11   without actually testing the thing.

01:33:13   - It's like seeing the word subscription.

01:33:15   - Yes.

01:33:16   And the second thing is,

01:33:18   I think the problem with a lot of people

01:33:22   on Twitter in our little community

01:33:25   is the

01:33:27   struggling to accept,

01:33:31   and this is sort of like the, you know,

01:33:33   now it's become impossible not to see this,

01:33:38   but struggling to accept that Agile Bits is not that kind of small boutique, as I mentioned

01:33:46   before, indie company that it used to be. I think a lot of people were still thinking

01:33:50   of Agile Bits as that sort of small boutique indie shop. And it's not just that anymore,

01:33:55   right? It's not just that kind of company anymore. And maybe a lot of folks were just

01:34:00   pretending to ignore this over the past few years. "Yeah, they're doing subscriptions.

01:34:05   "Oh, they got some VC money. Oh, the team is so much bigger now."

01:34:09   But they were still thinking of Agile Bitts as that kind of company making the native Mac app,

01:34:14   and then the iPhone app, and then on the iPad, and then the Apple Watch.

01:34:18   And they maybe ignored all the signs that you mentioned, Myke.

01:34:22   And now it's become impossible to ignore those signs.

01:34:24   This is a service—this is a software-as-a-service company.

01:34:29   It's a company going after the enterprise customer, and I think it's that change.

01:34:35   that change that really was not that sudden, but a lot of people seem to realize it now

01:34:41   that this is a company like Slack is a company.

01:34:44   Or Dropbox.

01:34:45   Or Dropbox.

01:34:46   Or Dropbox did this exact same thing.

01:34:48   Slack and Dropbox, they both did this, right?

01:34:50   Like the exact same thing that agilebits has done.

01:34:53   Here's this cool tool for Mac focused people.

01:34:56   And then it grows, explodes, goes Electron, moves on.

01:35:00   I don't know what Dropbox runs on, but it's surely something weird.

01:35:03   I think it is Electron.

01:35:04   I think Slack always was Electron, but to your point,

01:35:07   it was sort of Mac-centric in the beginning.

01:35:09   - Yeah, and so I feel like a lot of people feel

01:35:13   maybe betrayed by that to an extent.

01:35:17   I don't know, it's kind of strange,

01:35:18   but it feels like they used to believe in this product

01:35:23   and now they feel like they have switched to the other side,

01:35:29   which is a terrible mindset, honestly,

01:35:32   But I think it may help explain all the criticism

01:35:36   that we've seen.

01:35:38   And so to sum up, I feel like we all need to relax a little.

01:35:43   And I think on the computers that we use,

01:35:46   there's a place for all kinds of apps,

01:35:48   and it's not the UI framework

01:35:51   that makes the quality of software.

01:35:54   It's the software itself.

01:35:56   - Yeah, I will echo what you just said there a minute ago.

01:35:59   Like, I haven't used this

01:36:00   because I would never install a beta version of 1Password.

01:36:04   That just seems like a bad scene.

01:36:07   So I think it's worth-- I understand people's initial

01:36:12   upset.

01:36:12   I get it.

01:36:13   I understand why people are initially upset.

01:36:15   If they have had bad experiences with these types of apps

01:36:18   in the past, then they don't want it to go that way.

01:36:22   So I would just wait and see.

01:36:24   I know I've seen some of my friends

01:36:26   picking apart the application and saying,

01:36:28   this thing doesn't work anymore.

01:36:29   This thing doesn't work anymore.

01:36:30   if you remove this thing and I get that,

01:36:31   like you're worried, right?

01:36:32   Like you don't want the features to be gone,

01:36:35   but it is a beta and we'll see how it goes

01:36:37   through the process.

01:36:38   Who knows, maybe they'll pull an Apple on us

01:36:39   and just completely reverse it

01:36:41   and go back to like carbon or something.

01:36:43   Who knows, they'll just keep going forever and forever back,

01:36:45   really dig it deep into the operating system.

01:36:47   But here's the other thing, realistically,

01:36:49   how much time do people spend in a one password app?

01:36:52   Like, come on.

01:36:53   Like how much time are you spending in the app?

01:36:55   Like you just need it to do its thing

01:36:57   as long as it can still do its things

01:36:58   or you pull it into the web browser

01:37:00   or the extension or whatever,

01:37:02   it's kind of all that matters.

01:37:04   Not here to defend 1Password, by the way.

01:37:09   I have no relationship with them.

01:37:10   I'm not here to defend them.

01:37:12   But I just think this is how I would react

01:37:16   with pretty much any of these applications.

01:37:18   What do you expect?

01:37:20   - I guess I should say they are a sponsor of Mac power users.

01:37:23   - But that is not a relay FM sponsorship.

01:37:25   So I'm staying absolved of my--

01:37:28   - You are, I'm not.

01:37:30   But yeah, I mean, I feel like we've been fair here

01:37:33   and I, while I do disagree with their approach here,

01:37:38   like I said, I think they really had

01:37:41   some serious development organization problems.

01:37:46   I think saying SwiftUI or Bust was premature.

01:37:51   - I cannot wait to see what the iPad and iOS app looks like

01:37:55   because I don't know how you could build

01:37:57   an app that complicated in SwiftUI right now.

01:38:00   - And if they do, hats off to them, I guess.

01:38:03   But a lot of that is also on Apple, like we said.

01:38:06   And I would love to know why Catalyst

01:38:09   wasn't seriously considered.

01:38:12   I think what they've said so far publicly,

01:38:14   at least in the blog post, I haven't read all the tweets

01:38:16   'cause there's so many of them,

01:38:17   but I would like to know that.

01:38:20   And if it was a matter of,

01:38:23   well that's still too many resources to have dedicated to the Mac, which is a small platform.

01:38:31   Once was their only platform, but now a small platform.

01:38:34   Then just say it.

01:38:36   Because I think that one thing this does is saying that it's Catalyst or Electron.

01:38:40   That does say something about what they think about Catalyst, and I would like to know what

01:38:45   that was.

01:38:46   Yeah, good times.

01:38:47   Pastor Boy in Discord has raised an interesting point that it does run in the background kind

01:38:52   sometimes always but we'll see how that fares. What, 1Password? Mm-hmm because I

01:38:59   said how long do you have the app open. Well yeah I mean it's a menu bar stuff

01:39:03   but I think what you meant was how often are you in there dealing with things and

01:39:06   why that's what I meant right like you were right which is a different

01:39:10   different thing right yeah mines running on my computer 24/7 but I'm only in

01:39:14   there like changing something I don't know not not very much yeah maybe that's

01:39:19   - It's just the Rust in my computer, you know.

01:39:22   - Hey-o.

01:39:23   - Hey-o.

01:39:23   - I wish I knew enough about Rust

01:39:24   to make a comment on that, I just don't.

01:39:26   - I have no idea if it's good or bad or like,

01:39:28   I mean, different, whatever. - It beats me.

01:39:29   It's a thing.

01:39:30   - Rust, I don't like the name.

01:39:32   - The only other thing I would, I would,

01:39:34   I wanna touch on before we close this out is

01:39:37   people saying now, oh, well, I'm gonna move

01:39:41   to something else.

01:39:42   - What is that that you're gonna move to?

01:39:43   - Oh, good luck with that.

01:39:45   Have you seen the other password managers?

01:39:47   Have you tried them?

01:39:49   I mean, good luck.

01:39:50   - Yeah, they're all pretty bad.

01:39:52   One password by far the best one.

01:39:53   - I can tell you, there's some really interesting

01:39:57   cross-platform options waiting for you.

01:39:59   I'll tell you that.

01:40:00   So go have fun.

01:40:02   - But really what I'm getting at is,

01:40:06   this is still a beta.

01:40:11   And I mean, yeah, Apple is coming in on the scene,

01:40:14   but Apple's not gonna offer you everything you're used to

01:40:17   if you are in 1Password.

01:40:19   If you're cross-platform at all,

01:40:20   forget using iCloud Keychain.

01:40:23   - Incorrect. - They do have

01:40:23   a Windows version now. - They just put

01:40:24   a Windows version, yeah.

01:40:25   - Yeah, but it's not on Android,

01:40:27   so you can't use it on your flippy phone.

01:40:29   I don't know, I find that sort of immediate response

01:40:34   just pretty, I don't wanna say immature,

01:40:38   but I kinda wanna say immature.

01:40:39   - No, it's the internet today, man.

01:40:41   - I know. - Now I feel old saying it,

01:40:43   but the instant response, that's what Twitter is.

01:40:47   It's like let's just have an instant response to everything all the time.

01:40:51   You know the Futurama meme with Bender, I'm gonna make my own password manager with native

01:40:57   UI and I don't know what other things people want.

01:41:01   You know the meme.

01:41:02   I think so.

01:41:03   You know the one I'm referring to.

01:41:04   Yes.

01:41:05   I'm just gonna write him down on sticky notes attached to my computer.

01:41:08   Seems fine.

01:41:09   What could go wrong?

01:41:10   Or just do what Adubut suggests, just have one password, I think that's what they're

01:41:15   saying.

01:41:16   Ah yes, that's a good way for security.

01:41:17   Just one password everywhere, and you'll be fine.

01:41:22   - And if I make it password, it'll be easy to remember.

01:41:25   All right, if you want to find links

01:41:29   to everything we spoke about,

01:41:30   head on over to relay.fm/connected/359.

01:41:35   The first link in the show notes is to go donate

01:41:37   to St. Jude Children's Research Hospital.

01:41:39   We would love your support of that organization.

01:41:41   - Stjude.org/relay.

01:41:44   - That's right.

01:41:45   You can find us all online.

01:41:48   Federico is the editor-in-chief of MaxStories.net.

01:41:52   I would just say keep an eye on Federico

01:41:54   over the next week or so.

01:41:55   - Yeah, starting tomorrow.

01:41:58   - Starting tomorrow.

01:41:59   - Wait, are you doing something?

01:42:01   - Well, yes.

01:42:02   (laughing)

01:42:04   You're funny.

01:42:06   (laughing)

01:42:07   Yes, yes, we are doing some things.

01:42:09   (laughing)

01:42:12   - Federico has finally told me and Steven what he's doing.

01:42:14   This is not a joke, like he's not been telling us,

01:42:17   he's finally told us, it's really exciting,

01:42:19   so you should keep a look out for Max Stories.

01:42:21   - Yep.

01:42:23   You can find Myke on Twitter as I-M-Y-K-E,

01:42:26   and as soon as we hit the $20,000 mark

01:42:29   on the St. Jude campaign, Myke and I will be on Twitch

01:42:33   trying Fight Simulator again.

01:42:35   - Yep, yep, this is one of the many things

01:42:37   that we'll be doing, so keep an eye out for that,

01:42:39   we'll tweet about it.

01:42:40   I'm hoping that we can do it on Friday,

01:42:43   So get your money in now.

01:42:44   I'd love to do it on Friday.

01:42:46   - That'd be awesome.

01:42:47   You can find me on Twitter as ISMH

01:42:51   and I write over at 512pixels.net.

01:42:56   I'd like to thank our sponsors this week.

01:42:58   They are Fitbaud, Memberful and Hover.

01:43:01   And until next time guys, say goodbye.

01:43:03   - Adios,

01:43:03   Arrivederci.

01:43:04   Cheerio.

01:43:05   Bye, y'all.