322: ismh@hey.com


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   Hello and welcome to Connected, episode 322. It's made possible by our sponsors this week,

00:00:15   Squarespace, Pingdom, and Bombas. My name is Stephen Hackett and I'm joined by Mr. Federico Vittucci.

00:00:21   Hello, how are you?

00:00:22   Are you excited for Thanksgiving? Do you do anything for Thanksgiving? I know Myke and Nadina do.

00:00:27   not really and I'm not excited I'm just sad because we're just at home without

00:00:33   seeing our family so same same Myke how are you great it's good you told us

00:00:42   earlier you're gonna make a Thanksgiving dinner what are you gonna make started

00:00:46   yesterday started today actually who and I didn't started some of the work today

00:00:50   So she did a, what is it, like a dry brine on, we're doing chicken. We're doing just

00:00:57   chicken breast because we have a turkey dinner in like a month. We do turkey at

00:01:01   Christmas so we've just decided to have chicken today because I don't like

00:01:04   turkey enough to do it twice in a month.

00:01:06   Same, yeah I'm not a big turkey fan.

00:01:08   So we're going with chicken. We're doing sweet potato casserole, the marshmallow

00:01:14   version. We ordered a pumpkin pie from a nice bakery that arrived today.

00:01:18   We'll be doing potatoes and something with green beans and yeah we've got we've

00:01:23   got like a whole big thing going on. I'm very excited for tomorrow because I kind

00:01:27   of choose to celebrate Thanksgiving because nobody's around to work with me

00:01:31   so I might as well take the day as a holiday because no one will answer my emails, no

00:01:36   one will record shows, so I may as well celebrate it. There you go.

00:01:40   All right we've got a bunch of follow-up and as promised we're gonna start with

00:01:45   the face ID and masks. When Mary was on the show last week this was shared that

00:01:51   you could cover half your face and do the face ID and then cover the other

00:01:55   half of your face. So Mary did this and she said it worked a couple of times and

00:02:01   then it stopped working. So she was able to unlock her phone I think with a mask

00:02:05   three times and then it basically just refused. I wonder if this is one of

00:02:10   those training things like you really just have to like be in it because you

00:02:14   know we all know this that when you if it doesn't recognize you and you put

00:02:19   your code in it learns and then over time Face ID gets better I wonder if

00:02:24   this is one of those things that you just have to really commit to it you

00:02:27   know yeah maybe but I don't know it's interesting that it worked at all

00:02:31   honestly because it seems like one of those snake oil things to me so I'm

00:02:35   surprised that it worked at all yeah I haven't bothered doing it I just kind of

00:02:41   accepted that I need to put in my passcode a lot of the time. Yeah. It just sounds...

00:02:48   I don't want to mess up the algorithm, you know? It just seems like one of those things

00:02:53   where you do it and suddenly the little intelligent part of your phone just goes crazy. And I

00:03:00   don't want to do that. I don't want to trick the computer, I guess.

00:03:04   Yeah, I didn't do it... I think I said this on the show at some point, maybe I didn't,

00:03:09   is that I have gone from a six digit pin code

00:03:12   back to a four digit pin code during COVID.

00:03:15   - Oh, I've never gone up to six myself.

00:03:19   - I always stayed at four.

00:03:20   - So Mary's phone requires six

00:03:22   because she has her work email on it.

00:03:25   And unlike Relay FM, they have security protocols

00:03:28   around their email that require phone codes.

00:03:31   - LOL security.

00:03:32   - We have two factor authentication turned on.

00:03:34   We're good.

00:03:35   - Yeah, that's what I do as well.

00:03:37   I mean, tooth factor is pointless if it's actually hidden behind a four.

00:03:42   It's four code passcode because the tooth factor, I mean, you could say, "Oh, I got

00:03:47   tooth factor," but it's all signed in in the apps.

00:03:51   So don't steal mic and ice phones is what we're saying.

00:03:54   But her employer requires, like they have a big Outlook system and so her work email,

00:04:00   one of the things with that is to enforce a six digit PIN, not just on her phone, but

00:04:05   on her watch as well.

00:04:06   It's like, "Mmm, she's a teacher. What secrets could she have?" The answer is the next week's

00:04:13   vocabulary test, I guess. So she's still in the six-digit world.

00:04:17   Well, I mean, you get it though, right?

00:04:19   Oh yeah, they have like 100,000 employees.

00:04:22   I just want to say this before we get the emails where Steven's like, "Have you never

00:04:26   heard of this privacy thing for school children?" So it has now been said.

00:04:32   We made jokes last time about Apple authorized service providers all having the same furniture

00:04:39   and stuff and I was really hoping someone would give us details on this and someone

00:04:42   did.

00:04:43   So Thomas sent a string of tweets in to us saying that they used to work at an Apple

00:04:48   premium reseller so that is different from like an Apple authorized service provider

00:04:54   which what I was doing ASPs do repairs APRs sell things and you can have a company that

00:05:00   does both, gets you a company that can do both.

00:05:02   Nice.

00:05:03   But if you're an APR, it is very tightly controlled, as we sort of joked about.

00:05:08   So Apple approves the store location, the building size and layout.

00:05:13   They provide plans on which devices, tables, and layouts go, so like they give you a blueprint

00:05:20   of where everything will sit.

00:05:21   Wow.

00:05:22   You're required to buy the furniture from a specific company that is indeed very similar

00:05:26   to Apple's.

00:05:27   Oh my word.

00:05:28   They come with their own security and chargers, placement of devices is given in centimeters,

00:05:35   and I knew this from my Apple Store days.

00:05:38   We had a visual team and we had standards of like, the iMac goes here, the keyboard

00:05:43   goes this far away from the foot of the iMac, the mouse goes this many inches over.

00:05:47   It's all very tightly controlled.

00:05:49   Apple tells them what device color needs to be where, so like the pink MacBook Air goes

00:05:54   here, this iPhone was blue, now it's black.

00:05:58   tightly controlled but you get to use the Apple logo which is a big deal in this world.

00:06:03   AASPs can only use the Apple logo in very certain circumstances and very often you would see the

00:06:08   Apple logo or something close to it, people using it shadily. But if you're an Apple premium reseller

00:06:14   you you get those perks if you follow all of these rules which sound very stressful to keep

00:06:19   up with to be honest with you. So there you go. I cannot believe it is as detailed as this. I can't

00:06:25   but I also super can believe it. But I have a secondary question though that if anybody can

00:06:30   answer, maybe Thomas can answer. Okay. Because I've been to these, and like what I always find at

00:06:36   these stores is they always look like old designs, so do Apple request that the design is changed

00:06:42   at some point? So like are all these stores gonna have to update to the, you know, trees and

00:06:49   limestone everywhere. Or I wonder if they keep them like one generation behind

00:06:54   because they're not Apple stores. Just to remind you you're not the real thing.

00:07:00   You gotta keep them down. You gotta fully rise up. That's right. So why is there an EMAC back there?

00:07:07   Well Apple said we have to leave it out. So do you guys think that there's

00:07:13   like a convention for Apple premium resellers? Like, do they all get together?

00:07:20   Like a training program, maybe? And talk behind Apple's back.

00:07:23   Oh, that's a different thing. Like, there's like a big slack and they're all in it?

00:07:27   No, like a retreat. Like a retreat for Apple premium resellers.

00:07:31   Maybe. I've always wanted to have like a company

00:07:34   retreat except my company's like two people. You just go hang out with Jon.

00:07:39   Well, yeah, but do you call it a retreat?

00:07:42   Yes.

00:07:43   You do so your business can pay for it.

00:07:45   What if our company and your company have a joint retreat and then it could be four

00:07:53   people?

00:07:54   I don't know, I just find the idea of company retreats fascinating, especially for big companies,

00:07:59   like 50, 60 people.

00:08:00   I think that'd be like three and a half people because I also work for Max Story some.

00:08:04   So I'm like, I get to wear like the relay shirt and the Max Story shirt like sewn together.

00:08:08   Yeah, you have to cut it down the hall. But like describe like have you guys ever been on a company retreat?

00:08:14   Yes, I have. Okay. So do you ever end up in an awkward situation where like, I don't know,

00:08:20   there there must be activities, right? Oh, yeah, because team building.

00:08:25   Okay, so do do you ever end up in like an awkward situation when say you're playing football or something or you're

00:08:33   hiking, whatever, and like there's also your boss.

00:08:37   And let's say you're playing a sport and you don't want to hurt your boss, like you want to make them believe they're winning.

00:08:43   So does it get kind of awkward that way?

00:08:47   I'm sure in this very specific example that you've given it could get awkward.

00:08:54   Like, do you want to play football with John?

00:08:57   Like, what is this?

00:09:01   No, I'm just asking about the psychological effect of these company retreats in the sense of

00:09:06   They seem to me like things can get kind of awkward in different scenarios.

00:09:13   I think if you work for Michael Scott it might, but I think for, you know...

00:09:16   I guess that's what I'm picturing.

00:09:18   Yeah, yeah.

00:09:19   I don't want to go on the Dunder Mclune.

00:09:20   I'm sure there are some that are like that, but you know.

00:09:22   Interesting.

00:09:23   I don't know, I find it fascinating.

00:09:25   That was not the case with ours.

00:09:26   It was fine.

00:09:27   That's good.

00:09:28   All right.

00:09:29   Tell me about Google adopting new things in iPadOS that are really old things on iPadOS.

00:09:34   This is a super just quick thing.

00:09:35   I just want to complain.

00:09:37   Chrome on iOS, on iPadOS has added multi-window support.

00:09:41   It's definitely the the app that we all want it to be included on.

00:09:47   Come on, Google.

00:09:50   You're so behind.

00:09:51   Like I need I need good trackpad support, right?

00:09:55   On iPadOS. I also really want multi-window.

00:09:58   Just make it happen.

00:10:00   Microsoft can do it.

00:10:02   Do you think that this was like a trade

00:10:05   so they could be a default browser? Apple was like, yes,

00:10:09   but you have to support multi window.

00:10:11   I mean maybe, but they did it way after. So.

00:10:14   Myke, are you using Chrome as your default browser on iOS and iPad OS?

00:10:19   No, I'm all Safari. I'm all Safari. I switched with iPad OS,

00:10:24   whatever the first one was because they did a default, uh, like, sorry,

00:10:27   like the good beefed up like desktop Safari.

00:10:29   So last year 13. Yeah.

00:10:31   So I swapped,

00:10:33   I switched during the beta process and then switched on the Mac too.

00:10:37   On the Mac too. Interesting.

00:10:39   It pushed me like the desktop Safari pushed me on all devices because

00:10:43   I am a firm believer of like, if you use a browser,

00:10:47   you should use that same browser everywhere because that is true.

00:10:50   That's wild of a wise because you lose out on so much,

00:10:54   just like the shared history.

00:10:55   Yeah. It's like walking with two different shoes at the same time.

00:10:59   You don't want to do that when I have the same browser everywhere.

00:11:02   I agree.

00:11:03   I remember walking.

00:11:04   Oh yeah, how was your foot?

00:11:06   Oh, that's fine.

00:11:07   Have you fallen again?

00:11:10   No accidents this week to report.

00:11:11   Oh, excellent.

00:11:12   That's good, that's good.

00:11:13   Very good news.

00:11:14   But you've been keeping yourself busy though, haven't you?

00:11:17   Yeah, I'm working, doing stuff.

00:11:21   I have released, to complement my Mac OS wallpapers in 5K, I took a bunch of the OS 9 wallpapers

00:11:28   and made them 5k and some of these are not good. Yeah I don't know why you did

00:11:35   this because alright so like the Mac OS X wallpapers are all great.

00:11:42   Yeah. The Mac OS 9 wallpapers are all bad. They're all bad. They're just different levels of bad.

00:11:49   My favorite one is the really weird finder face. It's huge. Who cares about finder that much that

00:11:56   were making their desktop background. They're all really really bad. Really bad.

00:12:02   The capsule one is the most concerning to me because it just looks like pills flying by.

00:12:07   Which one? The green one? Yeah it just looks like Advil or something going by.

00:12:14   I have a question. I have a question. What's up with shutters?

00:12:17   I don't know it's like that and bottles. Shutters and bottles?

00:12:22   and Golden Poppy are just like pictures and then the rest of them are these like acid trips

00:12:26   I think it's kind of like the inverse of the ones they put on Big Sur right

00:12:31   where it's like here's some illustrations of places where did you come from

00:12:37   UFO 2 is my favorite uh the orange and the orangy UFO one

00:12:42   I think the I think the the the bottles one is like obviously like those are the

00:12:48   the bottles that contain the substances that this person took before the acid trip. And

00:12:56   if you look at the wallpaper, you can see those are empty bottles. There's a reason

00:13:00   behind it.

00:13:01   If anything, Steven, this is a really good demo of machine learning, like, applied in

00:13:06   practice to something that somebody, I'm sure, will enjoy. Or not. But, like, the super resolution

00:13:15   in pixelometer. Like if there ever was a feature that you could say, this is what machine learning

00:13:20   can actually do in practice, upscaling small images to bigger sizes and have these kinds

00:13:26   of results in with that kind of performance. I think that makes for a really good demo

00:13:31   to understand like, well, because we hear this talk of like machine learning improvements.

00:13:35   Yeah. And it's like, why are you spending so much time on putting so many cores in there?

00:13:39   Like what does it do for me? And yeah, you're right. This is a great example of it.

00:13:43   Yeah, so this is how I did it. So these all originally were 1024 by 768 or smaller.

00:13:49   And if you look at some of them, like some of the grape ones, like, look at this one,

00:13:56   great gravity, for instance, is out of focus. That's how the original one is too.

00:14:01   It's not that this pixelmator Pro feature botched it, it's that it scaled up what it had to work with,

00:14:08   and the original small one is blurry.

00:14:10   this was really impressive. I did this on an M1 MacBook Air and at the same time I

00:14:16   ran one on my Mac Pro and the MacBook Air destroyed it. Like it wasn't even it

00:14:22   wasn't even a contest and I've got a pretty decent... That makes a lot of sense

00:14:25   though right like more than I think a lot of other stuff is like the Mac Pro

00:14:31   does not have a specific thing right for this. Right and so this is a really the

00:14:38   The first example that I have come across where I was like,

00:14:41   oh, this is what a neural engine can do-- because on iOS,

00:14:45   it's kind of nebulous, right?

00:14:46   It's like, oh, it's doing machine learning.

00:14:48   But when you can do this and compare it

00:14:50   with a machine with a neural engine and one without,

00:14:52   you can really see what this is capable of.

00:14:56   So I guess this is taking advantage of some machine

00:14:59   learning APIs then, right?

00:15:01   Yeah.

00:15:02   Coromel?

00:15:03   Isn't it based on Coromel?

00:15:04   Yeah, I think it is.

00:15:05   It is based on the--

00:15:06   We'll put their blog post in the show notes,

00:15:08   'cause it is pretty interesting,

00:15:09   and they compare this versus other ways to do it.

00:15:13   But yeah, it was really fast,

00:15:14   and the feature is why I did this.

00:15:16   I was like, oh, I wonder what I could like,

00:15:18   'cause I was so interested in what this would be,

00:15:21   and then it popped in my mind that,

00:15:23   oh, I have a bunch of OS 9 wallpapers.

00:15:26   I wonder how it would scale them up,

00:15:28   and it did a remarkable job.

00:15:31   I mean, some of them that are sharp,

00:15:32   like the flower power or bottles or something,

00:15:36   like they look good full size and they started out super tiny.

00:15:40   So it was really impressive.

00:15:41   And now people have a bunch of wacky wallpapers to use.

00:15:45   Yeah. A thing that I've done, which is not as good,

00:15:49   but like on the Pixelmator for iOS is,

00:15:52   is it called Pixelmator Photo?

00:15:54   Yes. Well, there's both Pixelmator and Pixelmator Photo,

00:15:57   but what you're thinking of is Pixelmator Photo.

00:15:59   By the way, Pixelmator confuses me now.

00:16:02   like I like the old one, which is kind of like like has a lot of like tools where you

00:16:06   can make things and like, can you do that stuff in Pixelmator Pro because all they ever

00:16:10   seem to show is just like edit this picture. So based on what Jon tells me, I believe that's

00:16:17   the case. But I'm still I like you. I'm still using like the base Pixelmator on my iPad

00:16:24   when I need to like, well, I use some more on my Mac than my iPad. And yeah, for like

00:16:29   those kinds of things or like yeah if I'm if I'm like tinkering around to make

00:16:34   a chapter art for a show or whatever. I think you can in Pixelmator Pro. Okay because what's

00:16:40   concerned me is they've renamed it to Pixelmator Classic and that tells me it's going away.

00:16:46   So I just wanted to like because I believe when Pixelmator Pro originally came out it

00:16:51   was much more just like do stuff with photos but I maybe I'll try it out or something

00:16:58   because going through their website doesn't, it just,

00:17:00   it doesn't seem clear to me that it can necessarily do all the things that I'm

00:17:04   used to. But anyway,

00:17:04   Pixelmator photo is really cool because like I've done stuff

00:17:10   where you can remove people from an image and stuff like that.

00:17:13   And that was on this before they brought it to,

00:17:17   I think before Pixelmator pro even existed. Yeah. It's just very,

00:17:20   very clever stuff. So really cool.

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00:19:13   I want to talk a little bit about the new version of 1Password, 1Password 7.7.

00:19:20   It's their Big Sur update.

00:19:22   And there's a couple of really nice features in here.

00:19:25   My favorite by far is unlocking 1Password with your Apple Watch.

00:19:31   This does not require Big Sur, but you have to be on a Mac with a secure enclave, so a

00:19:37   T1 or a T2 Mac.

00:19:39   So this does rule out a bunch of iMacs and stuff.

00:19:42   But if you have this, so if you have a MacBook Pro with Touch ID or MacBook Air, or you know,

00:19:49   an iMac Pro, Mac Pro, something like that, Mac Mini, and you know, a lot of those systems

00:19:56   don't have Touch ID sensors, or maybe use your laptop where the Touch ID sensor is like

00:20:00   far away, or maybe it's in clamshell mode.

00:20:03   Now you can just unlock with your Apple Watch.

00:20:07   And it works just like some of the system props that use the Apple Watch where you've

00:20:10   you've got to double click the side button. I absolutely love this.

00:20:15   It's fantastic. I love it. I need to set it up on Sylvia's machine because she doesn't,

00:20:22   she never bothers to install updates or do like cool things that become available as

00:20:27   new features. And then she discovers it because she follows me on Twitter, right? And so every

00:20:32   once in a while she opens Twitter and she's like, why didn't you tell me that I can now

00:20:36   do this with like Dropbox or 1Password and I'm like "Have you updated your phone?" and

00:20:41   she's like "No" and like "Well, you know, you're supposed to do that" and so it's this

00:20:45   weird thing that we have where she complains about me not telling her about new features

00:20:49   but also she dislikes software updates. Anyway, this is a very good feature. It works on my

00:20:55   2018 Mac Mini and it's fantastic. I love how it doesn't require you to do anything on the

00:21:01   Apple Watch. The alert just pops up on the watch no matter, like, it doesn't have to

00:21:06   be on. It's like Apple Pay and those Finder dialogues. Speaking of the Finder, a few minutes

00:21:13   ago—and this is totally, like, it's not related to 1Password, I'm sorry—but a few

00:21:17   days ago, Steven, I wanted to ask you, do you know what's written in the "About Finder"

00:21:25   window?

00:21:26   Does it still say, like, "The Macintosh Experience"? Does it still say that?

00:21:33   says that, the Macintosh desktop experience. Oh man, if we ever had a band. This is like

00:21:41   Jimi Hendrix meets Finder, right? The Macintosh desktop experience. Like imagine that with

00:21:47   a bunch of flowers and acid colors all around it. And UFOs. That really is the Macintosh

00:21:53   desktop experience. Anyway, the Apple Watch. Very, very cool use of the Apple Watch for

00:22:00   one password. Just real quick while we're talking about this about like the Apple

00:22:04   Watch, it is really cool I would just say as well having touch ID though

00:22:08   it's just a million times better I love having such a DMM Pro now yeah I have a

00:22:13   question for you why does my iMac Pro turn on its own? Like randomly? Yeah and I

00:22:18   know this because my watch buzzes and says hey we just unlocked you my iMac Pro

00:22:22   for you. I think you've been you've been hacked Myke. That would explain it it just

00:22:27   comes on randomly sometimes. So in energy saver do you have things like wake for network

00:22:33   access startup automatically after a power failure power nap any of those things turned

00:22:38   on? Wake for network access is on. Maybe you turn that off maybe something's trying to

00:22:43   ping it is it off or is it? It was checked. Okay but is the computer off or is it sleeping?

00:22:49   Sleeping. Okay it's probably network access something's probably hitting it and waking

00:22:54   it up. Like Plex or something like that. Or a notification somewhere. It's probably a

00:22:59   notification. I turned that off, I'll let you know if it keeps happening. But it happens

00:23:03   like at least once a day. Like I have my iMac on like sleep in and it just goes whoop, up,

00:23:08   up, just turns on. It's very annoying. So the other feature in 1Password 7.7 is an inline

00:23:17   experience. So if you use 1 password x 10x, which is what I have on my Windows

00:23:23   notebook in Edge or I think it's an Edge. So how that works is it instead of like

00:23:30   the pop-up window used to get just in the field you get a drop down so it's

00:23:34   either your one one password entry for that site or if you have a site with

00:23:39   like multiple accounts it gives you a drop down and you can pick the one that

00:23:44   you want. I like this feature, but I don't think everybody does.

00:23:47   I hate this. I hate this feature.

00:23:49   This is a very bad feature. I hate this feature.

00:23:52   I feel bad because I know one of the people who worked on this feature and they

00:23:56   told me, please like it. And I told them, I hate it. I gotta be honest with you.

00:24:00   I hate this feature. I don't know why you did it.

00:24:02   The reason I don't like it is because like I turned it on and then I had

00:24:07   two autofills compete with each other. Same. So Safari and 1Password,

00:24:12   just fighting it out and I never asked for this.

00:24:15   It's like, hey buddy, we want to finish your login.

00:24:17   I know because as well, it's like so small.

00:24:21   Yeah, that you I could barely get like one entry, like maybe you can resize it.

00:24:26   I like the feature.

00:24:27   I like that the one password icon is in the box so I can click it if I want to.

00:24:32   But I didn't like that by default it was enabled because I spent a day

00:24:37   being like, what is going on?

00:24:39   because I had these two conflicting autofills all the time.

00:24:42   Yeah, I really dislike it, which is why I came up with a way...

00:24:48   You know, I did my research on the Mac,

00:24:50   which is not something that I do frequently these days.

00:24:53   And, oh, great, now my OnePassword extension is stuck in Safari.

00:24:57   Fantastic. OK.

00:24:59   Anyway, you can go to the OnePassword preferences, browsers,

00:25:03   and then you just disable Show Inline Menu in Safari

00:25:06   and you get rid of the autofill.

00:25:08   Also I gotta say...

00:25:09   But you can still bring it back if you want to, which is like it's good to have it there,

00:25:13   but honestly like I've gotten pretty used to making sure that I have all of the stuff

00:25:18   that I need in Keychain because then I have it wherever I need it.

00:25:24   Yeah, not a good idea.

00:25:27   Because I don't want to disable iCalKeychain, you know?

00:25:30   I don't want to turn that off.

00:25:33   So...

00:25:34   Hmm, I don't use it so I haven't come across that conflict.

00:25:38   If you turn one passwords off do you just get the standard UI, the old UI?

00:25:46   You don't use Keychain?

00:25:49   I don't use, I don't have any passwords saved in Safari.

00:25:53   Huh, why?

00:25:55   Because I use one password.

00:25:58   But like you can just have them both.

00:25:59   No then I've had to change something.

00:26:00   And then it's like there and it's easy.

00:26:03   why this is weird I don't get it no I would have password in two systems why

00:26:10   would you not yeah because I have one system for this but it's more convenient

00:26:15   to keep them in Safari it is no one password because then I have them on my

00:26:19   other devices same with that aren't that aren't Apple devices do you use non

00:26:26   Apple devices yeah I've got a PC notebook that I use every time I stream

00:26:30   Yeah, but like all of my stuff is in 1Password.

00:26:33   But why is it awesome in Safari then? You just need one place for your passwords.

00:26:37   No, because 1Password is not as easily accessible in all places.

00:26:41   Exactly.

00:26:42   Like if I go to an app to log in, 1Password isn't always there.

00:26:48   Yeah, that's on them for writing a cruddy app that doesn't support

00:26:50   autofill passwords, which has been around for three years.

00:26:53   Right, but I can't be like, oh, so like now I'm just not gonna do it because this app,

00:26:58   like I have no control over this.

00:27:00   This is a fascinating thing we just discovered about you.

00:27:04   I love finding out the way that like people use their computers in weird ways.

00:27:08   You know it's not called "one password" because you're supposed to keep your passwords in one place, right?

00:27:14   That's not what the name is for.

00:27:16   Steven takes it so literally, he has just one password and one password.

00:27:20   It's like "I'm just doing what it tells me!"

00:27:22   Which is weird because one password is supposed to let you use different passwords, but I misconstrued it.

00:27:27   I don't know why they have this feature, but it's so clear that you only need one password.

00:27:33   It seems like a whole app is overkill for that, but you know.

00:27:37   I do what I'm told.

00:27:38   I do what I'm told.

00:27:40   Oh boy.

00:27:41   Federico, you got a Belkin MagSafe car mount, and I want to hear everything about it.

00:27:47   This is the best MagSafe accessory you can buy.

00:27:49   This is the conclusion of my comprehensive review.

00:27:53   Alright, so what's next?

00:27:54   So next up is app clips.

00:27:59   Let me talk about this thing because I am so excited about a single piece of plastic.

00:28:03   I don't think this ever happened in my life before.

00:28:05   I've been fighting this problem for years where all of these car mounts that I purchased,

00:28:13   starting with the days of the iPhone 5 and the 5s, they never worked for me because eventually

00:28:19   the iPhone will always fall off.

00:28:21   car mount and sometimes the car mount itself would detach from the air vents in my car

00:28:27   and it's just like, you know, it would fall like either on the passenger seat or worst

00:28:33   case scenario between my legs as I was driving and that's not ideal when you're driving.

00:28:40   You don't want that to happen.

00:28:41   Then it gets stuck under the brake pedal and you try on a brake and then you go off the

00:28:45   side of the cliff and it's like a whole thing.

00:28:47   And you die, you gotta think about the afterlife, all that kind of stuff. I don't want to do

00:28:51   Are there a lot of cliffs in Rome you could you could drive off of?

00:28:54   I have been at the Amalfi Coast twice in my life and let me tell you driving by the Amalfi Coast

00:29:02   which is basically one long like 30 kilometer cliff.

00:29:07   That's terrifying.

00:29:08   That's not that's terrifying but also very beautiful.

00:29:10   It's as beautiful as it is like where you feel like kind of like life threatening.

00:29:16   Yes, yes, exactly. Anyway, so I've been very disappointed with all of these car mounts that

00:29:22   I've tried over the years. A friend, the only somewhat interesting car mount I've seen, a friend

00:29:29   of mine, she had this combo of a car mount and a magnetic case. And what she would do, she would

00:29:36   just swap the case on her iPhone when she got into the car. And so she would just, she would,

00:29:42   she was using that case just for driving. And sure enough, that case and the car mount had a really

00:29:47   solid and stable connection. However, you know me, I don't necessarily... like...

00:29:53   Well, I guess in the... before the wallet case, right? Before I fell in love with the wallet case,

00:30:01   I was not the kind of person who would say "I don't want to change cases every time I go out."

00:30:08   I mean, but like at a certain point, why didn't you just, you know, it's just like, well,

00:30:12   I'm going to change to the wallet case and I have my car case and I have my home case.

00:30:16   Yeah, like a whole beach case, you know, whole collection of cases. Right now I don't have

00:30:22   a wallet case. Um, and so I decided, you know, I want to try this back in charger and it's

00:30:29   super good. So, uh, couple of things I want to mention. The vent clip that attaches to

00:30:37   to your air vents in the car.

00:30:38   It can be rotated, so it supports both vertical

00:30:42   and horizontal air vents in your whatever car model you have

00:30:47   and the connection is very strong, so it stays in place.

00:30:51   - Is it?

00:30:52   Does it feel stronger than other MagSafe stuff?

00:30:56   - Yes, so the MagSafe connection between the phone

00:31:00   and the car mount, to me at least it feels stronger

00:31:06   than, say, for example, the MagSafe charger.

00:31:11   I don't know why, but I was driving yesterday,

00:31:14   and, you know, like, Rome's damaged road situation.

00:31:19   Like, these roads are bumpy, to say the least.

00:31:23   And the phone never detached from the car mount.

00:31:27   And this is so good for me, because now I

00:31:29   can keep my phone if I have turn-by-turn directions,

00:31:34   for example.

00:31:35   I don't need to stare down because I would keep my phone basically in a little slot by

00:31:41   the gearshift. But I needed to stare down at the phone to look at maps.

00:31:48   Keep your eyes on the road, Federico.

00:31:50   I can keep my eyes on the road now because it attaches to the air vent, which is exactly

00:31:55   at eye level. And Face ID still works because it's close enough distance that authentication

00:32:02   still works and it's a strong connection. I can also attach a cable to my phone

00:32:09   while it's on the on the on the car mount and I can actually like fold the

00:32:15   cable behind the car mount there's a little slot in the vent clip where you

00:32:20   can put the cable in. It's very good it's a very good piece of plastic it's a very

00:32:26   good car mount and it's the by far my favorite mags if accessory so far so hmm

00:32:33   I'm really happy with it I finally have a decent you know Google Maps setup in

00:32:41   my car so I'm really happy it doesn't ship until January here which is

00:32:47   disappointing January 5th through the 20th it's quite the range how'd you get

00:32:52   it Federico. Did you rob Belkin? Big Belkin boy. I ordered it like three weeks ago and

00:33:01   it shipped earlier than I was promised. I have a problem with it having not used it.

00:33:06   Hi, I'm the internet. It doesn't power the phone. You have a cable though for that. But

00:33:18   But I have a cable anyway, so...

00:33:19   But why can't I plug the cable into the mount?

00:33:23   Yes, you're right. They should make a version of this that has an integrated charger. I agree.

00:33:27   Yeah.

00:33:28   I guess they're gonna make one, like a pro version, whatever.

00:33:31   Oh, how's your MagSafe charger? Oh, it's good, but I have to plug the cable in.

00:33:34   For me, that doesn't matter, because I've got wired CarPlay in my truck.

00:33:38   So I've ordered one on Federico's recommendation.

00:33:42   So the cable doesn't bother me, but yeah.

00:33:43   Imagine if the wired CarPlay worked through MagSafe.

00:33:47   Imagine how glorious that would be.

00:33:48   Well, see, that's something I worry about in the realm of portless iPhones.

00:33:54   It's like, what if you don't have wireless carplay?

00:33:57   Well, you're going to have to get a new carplay unit.

00:33:59   I'm going to have to replace the carplay unit again, which is fine.

00:34:02   I like taking my truck apart on the weekends.

00:34:03   You sure do.

00:34:04   Still.

00:34:05   Yeah, I got some parts to put on it when I can get out there safely.

00:34:09   What are you putting on it?

00:34:10   Some lights.

00:34:11   Some-- yeah, spoiler.

00:34:12   Some lights.

00:34:13   Yes.

00:34:14   Were you like the ones on top?

00:34:15   No.

00:34:16   My wife didn't let me do those.

00:34:19   No, I'm just kidding.

00:34:20   No, it's like a light bar that goes behind the grill.

00:34:23   And it's very bright.

00:34:24   If I'm out in the country,

00:34:25   you need more light. - A light bar

00:34:26   that goes behind the grill.

00:34:27   Also, like the front of the car would just light up.

00:34:31   - I'll send you a picture.

00:34:32   - No, my God. - It's RGB.

00:34:33   - It's not RGB.

00:34:36   All right, let me find this website.

00:34:38   - CarLights.com.

00:34:40   - CarLights, no.

00:34:42   It's this company that makes stuff for Tacoma's mostly.

00:34:45   Here we go.

00:34:45   doing this. I'll put this in the Discord. Why is this link? Put it in the Discord.

00:34:52   That. The lower bumper hidden LED bar. Oh boy, oh boy. And what's the purpose of this?

00:35:00   This is so American, I don't even know where to begin. I have a truck and I'm

00:35:05   putting lights in my truck. I live pretty close to the country and sometimes you

00:35:10   need a lot more light on the middle of nowhere. Always hauling, you know me. Can't

00:35:14   stop hauling, hauling all day every day. How do you think I move these performers around?

00:35:18   Like, it's in the truck. But these are all self-inflicted haulage scenarios.

00:35:23   Again, self-inflicted haulage scenario, another great name for our band. Oh boy. Wow. What

00:35:35   ever happened to App Clips? Ah, exactly what we thought would happen. Nothing. Neither

00:35:41   which is nothing. So App Clips, for those who honestly may not be aware, and that would

00:35:46   totally be justified, App Clips is a new feature in iOS 14 that allows you to "install" like

00:35:53   a small portion of an app. Like you can, instead of downloading the full app, you can just

00:36:00   on the spot install a part of it. And Apple pushed this feature as a perfect way for,

00:36:07   restaurants to let you install just the menu for the day instead of the full application.

00:36:13   Or maybe a store that you wanted to let you browse the catalog instead of downloading the full app.

00:36:19   And at WWDC, Apple announced different ways to discover and install these app clips.

00:36:26   You can discover an app clip via URL, in iMessage, in Apple Maps, on the web.

00:36:32   and you can install one by scanning an NFC tag, and obviously Apple also

00:36:38   announced their own proprietary way to install AppClips, which is a special QR

00:36:43   code called the AppClip code that Apple said would launch later in 2020. We are

00:36:49   now later in 2020, but we can be later later, I guess, because these AppClip

00:36:55   codes haven't launched yet. There's speculation that they will come out with

00:36:59   iOS 14.3, which I could see that being the case, slightly going to be the last major update to iOS

00:37:05   14 in 2020, or these things are going to be delayed, but we can't know yet because 2020 still isn't done.

00:37:11   So to answer your question to what happened with AppClips, I know a bunch of developers who

00:37:20   have shipped AppClips for their iOS 14 apps, and I believe Lookup, for example, is one of them, where

00:37:27   you can install just the app clip for the word of the day, maybe, something like that.

00:37:33   And look, I think the idea of making it easy for people to install apps, and, you know, because

00:37:41   these app clips are smaller, they download really fast, they are cached on your device for just a

00:37:47   few days... I think the idea in general is not too bad. It's not a terrible idea. It just feels to me

00:37:56   like the idea, the kind of idealized feature that works great in California, but it's too fancy for

00:38:07   the rest of the world. For example, I think in reality, based on what I'm seeing, and look,

00:38:12   you gotta take my experience for what it is. Based on what I see in Italy, I haven't traveled at all

00:38:18   this year, but based on what I'm seeing here, ever since COVID hit and all of these restaurants have

00:38:25   adjusted to, for example, digital menus because they don't want to hand you a piece of paper,

00:38:30   rightfully so. Basically what's happening is there's a bunch of local development shops here.

00:38:38   They are taking up all of these clients, they are taking up all of these restaurants and coffee

00:38:43   shops who suddenly find themselves having to make an app for iPhone and Android, right? And so

00:38:49   there's these local companies that convince all of these restaurants to make native apps. And this

00:38:55   And these are crappy apps. These are terrible experiences based on a template that these

00:38:59   companies are very likely overcharging for. And all of these apps look the same, and they

00:39:04   work the same, and they're basically making a few changes to the colors and the logos.

00:39:08   And so all of these restaurants end up having effectively the same system for letting you

00:39:12   browse the menu. And so these apps, which are made with like very likely cross-platform

00:39:18   tools, they don't look really great. They don't behave natively. They're not a modern

00:39:23   iOS 14 experience at all. And all of these restaurants, they either have this terrible

00:39:29   app that they let you download, or most of them, they just resort to uploading a PDF

00:39:35   document as a menu, they say, to a web server. And sometimes I've even seen Google Drive

00:39:42   and Dropbox links opening after scanning a QR code on a restaurant table. So to think

00:39:50   that these restaurants and these people, given all the problems that they're

00:39:54   facing with the pandemic, they would think of making sure that their native

00:39:59   app not only is an actual app instead of a PDF on Dropbox, but also supports

00:40:04   iOS 14 APIs and app clips.

00:40:07   I don't think it's going to happen.

00:40:09   So, yeah, in theory, it's a fantastic idea.

00:40:12   Yeah, there are companies using it, right?

00:40:14   And there's going to be more of them.

00:40:16   But this feels like one of those things where the ideal scenario is never going to be.

00:40:24   It's unlikely it's going to be reached anytime soon.

00:40:27   It's like, do you remember when we were supposed to order our coffee with shortcuts?

00:40:30   Nobody does that.

00:40:34   Having a great demo doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be a popular feature.

00:40:39   And I think app clips make for a fantastic demo.

00:40:44   It also feels like this could be one of those things that maybe would have panned out if the world was a little bit different right now.

00:40:52   Maybe. I also think it's the kind of feature that makes more sense for a headset instead of a phone.

00:40:59   Like I'm fine downloading apps on my phone. I can see this kind of transient experience of like,

00:41:06   "Hey, I need something for a few seconds. Let me just put it on my headset." Whatever.

00:41:11   I can see, technologically speaking,

00:41:14   I can see the motivation behind it.

00:41:17   It just kind of doesn't work in 2020, I think.

00:41:20   I don't know.

00:41:21   - Maybe one day.

00:41:22   - Maybe one day.

00:41:23   - I wanna talk a little bit about GarageBand.

00:41:25   - All right.

00:41:26   - And Mac OS Catalina.

00:41:28   So when Big Sur came out,

00:41:30   whatever it was a couple of weeks ago,

00:41:32   Apple updates all of his first party apps.

00:41:34   The iWork apps, Keynote pages and numbers

00:41:37   all got terrible 80s icons

00:41:39   GarageBand got an update. But it turns out the GarageBand update requires

00:41:44   macOS Big Sur, as does Apple remote desktop, but no one has that installed.

00:41:49   I didn't even know I had it installed until this problem. So I'm on Catalina on

00:41:53   my production machine, it won't be on Big Sur for some time, so you know I'm

00:41:58   opening the App Store, I get a bunch of updates, but I get an error saying, "Oh

00:42:02   GarageBand requires macOS Big Sur. I'm not on Big Sur and what this means is

00:42:09   that it continually stays in the App Store as an update. It badges the

00:42:14   App Store icon. Now I'm not a monster, I don't have the App Store in my dock, but

00:42:18   anytime I open it it's just there unable to be installed. Wait, I am a monster then.

00:42:24   -Me too. -Because I do.

00:42:25   Yeah, I have one as well.

00:42:27   Really? On the Mac?

00:42:28   Look, suddenly you got that, you know, need for apps, you know?

00:42:36   And you need that fix, that app store fix, and you just gotta...

00:42:39   You know, when Federico needs to check if the app store's been redesigned yet, you know?

00:42:44   Those kinds of things.

00:42:48   Do you remember that?

00:42:50   Oh, God.

00:42:51   (laughing)

00:42:54   - One day I will be right.

00:42:56   - Yeah, yeah.

00:42:58   I mean, I probably agree with that.

00:43:00   - So it's bananas to me that the App Store shows you

00:43:04   an update for an app that you can't install

00:43:08   and it knows you can't install it because when you try to,

00:43:10   it says you need Big Sur.

00:43:12   Just hide it and tell them I'm on Big Sur.

00:43:14   It's bananas.

00:43:16   It's very frustrating.

00:43:17   Also, I don't know why, what they did to GarageBand

00:43:20   make it require Big Sur for a point update?

00:43:23   Like what are you doing in there?

00:43:25   Yeah, I know!

00:43:27   What's going on in there?

00:43:29   Logic doesn't require Big Sur.

00:43:31   Yeah I know.

00:43:32   I thought well maybe there's a bigger update.

00:43:35   It's version 10.4.1 and it adds a bunch of Apple loops and instruments.

00:43:41   It improves the performance on Apple Silicon so it's universal and it is a refined new

00:43:47   design.

00:43:48   like you could ship it on Catalina. I don't understand. Maybe those loops are

00:43:53   like really advanced. Maybe. There's 1800 of them. Hip-hop, chill rap, future bass. I

00:44:00   don't know what future bass is. New disco, bass house, and more. If someone could

00:44:06   tell me what future bass is in the chat room I'd appreciate it. Bass from the

00:44:09   future. Bass from the future. This episode of Connected is also brought to you by

00:44:14   Pingdom from SolarWinds. While you've been listening to this podcast, how would you know

00:44:18   if your website had gone down? In fact, as we record this, there's a big AWS outage.

00:44:23   Like, your site could be down. Oh no! But I know mine isn't because Pingdom has

00:44:28   not alerted me. Wouldn't it be a great ad though if like the website did go down

00:44:34   during the Pingdom ad? I mean I could take it down, but let's not do that. No. But

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00:45:38   required. When you sign up, use the code "Connected" at checkout to get a huge 30%

00:45:44   off your first invoice. Our thanks to Pingdom from SolarWinds for their

00:45:48   support of this show and RelayFM. Federico Vittucci. Yes. I saw a tweet from you a

00:45:55   couple of days ago. Yes. And you were like, "I'm using hay now." Hey. Hey. I started out

00:46:02   as a skeptic but I've been using Hey for my work email for a few days via redirect

00:46:06   and I'm impressed different flow requires adjustment but it totally

00:46:10   clicked with me so many great touches from screener to set aside and clips is

00:46:16   that an app clip does Hey have app clips? Yes. So what's going on? What are you doing?

00:46:23   Well this is a very long story I don't know do we have the time for a very long

00:46:29   story. Yes. Let's go back to the summer when I was working on the iOS review. So when when

00:46:37   Hay came out originally, and if you remember there was like a waiting list and the company that makes

00:46:44   Hay, which is Basecamp, they had pre-announced last year that they were working on an email service.

00:46:50   I didn't necessarily pay attention to it. And when the launch happened earlier this year, a few months

00:46:56   ago, I didn't really care about it because I was so busy with the review and I was running

00:47:01   late and I had a bunch of other problems that I needed to take care of. And you know, the

00:47:05   idea of trying a different email client just, I didn't have the time for it at the time.

00:47:11   And the whole controversy happened with the App Store and Apple. And I didn't, and although

00:47:17   I agreed with Hey, on principle, I found the company's attitude and the response is really

00:47:24   off-putting. You know, the whole calling Apple, like, equating them to mafia people. I thought

00:47:33   that was a little too much, perhaps. It's not necessarily something I like. So I ignored

00:47:41   "hey". Even though I saw a lot of people saying "this is a different take on email, it really

00:47:48   works for me, it's interesting, you should check it out". I just didn't have the time.

00:47:52   Now for context, we at MacStories have been a Google Apps first and then G Suite company

00:47:59   for nearly a decade at this point.

00:48:02   And I set it up years ago and we were grandfathered in with a free legacy account.

00:48:09   We've been using it forever.

00:48:11   However, I realized a couple of months ago as we were having these discussions with Jon

00:48:16   But really, in G Suite, all we use is Gmail and Google's single sign-on for a few internal

00:48:25   products that we've built that let us log in with our Google company credentials.

00:48:32   We don't use Google Drive, we don't use Calendar, we don't use Sheets and Docs as a company.

00:48:42   Like I do, I have my own personal stuff for Docs and Drive and all that stuff.

00:48:47   Yeah, we share a few calendars, but we share them with iCloud, and for Google Docs I just

00:48:52   have my personal Google account, which is the same one that I use for YouTube and browsing,

00:48:56   all that kind of stuff.

00:48:58   So a few weeks ago, I realized that, you know, having done the iOS review, having taken care

00:49:06   of other things that I needed to take care of, I sort of started reassessing the state

00:49:11   of my work, of what I do and the way I do it. And I realized that my email situation

00:49:20   was really out of control, worse than what happened in years past. Like, it had gone

00:49:27   bad bad for real. To the point where I had missed really important emails and obviously

00:49:37   because I was using Apple Mail I didn't have support for push notifications but that was

00:49:41   my decision. But also Apple Mail was kind of terrible at searching 9+ years of email

00:49:50   and I didn't want to use Google's official Gmail app because that app sucks. I don't

00:49:55   I don't want to use Google Apps. And even though I had set up systems like, you know, for example,

00:50:02   SaneBox, which is really fantastic service, the problem is I was getting too many emails from

00:50:09   from too many unwanted people and sources and spammers and newsletters that I never signed up

00:50:16   for. Even SaneBox was struggling with that amount of stuff. And I just felt for the first time in

00:50:24   years, I just felt very overwhelmed. And I just, I was looking at my inbox and I had

00:50:31   messages in my main inbox from people that I meant to respond to from like two years

00:50:36   ago. And I never replied to them. And there was more email coming in every day. I just

00:50:41   felt very bad. And this was the first time it was happening since years, really, that

00:50:50   I'd gotten so out of control. So I started thinking about it and I figured, you know,

00:50:58   maybe instead of doing what I've done in the past, which is just, as they say, declaring

00:51:03   email bankruptcy and starting over, just basically archiving everything and starting fresh, this

00:51:10   thought crossed my mind, which was, what if I actually change systems and what if I actually

00:51:18   and do something else instead of just selecting all and archiving all? What if I actually

00:51:22   try starting over with the new workflow, with a new system?

00:51:26   I just started doing some research. I looked into Spark. I looked into... Spark doesn't

00:51:33   really matter because it's not its own email service. So I took a look at a bunch of different

00:51:38   email clients and then I realized, well, there's this thing that I ignored months ago. Maybe

00:51:45   I can check it out again." And it met all of my requirements, right? It supported push

00:51:53   notifications, search, beautifully designed, relatively fast pace of updates for iOS 14

00:52:02   and iPadOS. So I thought, you know, I'm gonna give Hey a try and I'm gonna see what happens.

00:52:07   And initially I set up a free account with a .hey@hey.com like free domain and I started

00:52:16   redirecting my email, my work email, to that free account.

00:52:19   And within a week or ten days or something, like, it clicked so well with me.

00:52:27   The whole thing with like...

00:52:29   I'm gonna talk about it in a few minutes, but the whole workflow for managing incoming

00:52:35   email, as well as the design and all the little touches for replying later and setting messages

00:52:44   aside that I tweeted about it. And after tweeting about it, the folks at Hay were kind enough

00:52:53   to invite us to try the new Hay for Work, which is the version of Hay made for Teams,

00:53:02   which I guess is launching officially next year.

00:53:05   But they gave us an invite to "Hey for Work."

00:53:09   And so last week, it's been well over a week

00:53:13   at this point, I think,

00:53:15   we, after thinking through the entire transition

00:53:19   for all the email addresses that we had

00:53:22   and all the things that were depending on Gmail,

00:53:24   it was a long process of trying to think

00:53:27   what happens if we switch over from Gmail.

00:53:30   But I made the change and Max Story's email is now running fully on "Hey for work".

00:53:38   What is the change?

00:53:39   What do you mean?

00:53:40   Well like, did you import all of your old email?

00:53:43   No.

00:53:43   So you have no search of your entire history?

00:53:47   No.

00:53:47   See, I couldn't do that.

00:53:49   Yeah.

00:53:49   Yeah, no way.

00:53:50   Do they let you do that?

00:53:52   No.

00:53:53   I couldn't... See, this would stick that for me because I've wondered about this.

00:53:57   I'm really interested to hear how the rest of this plays out.

00:54:00   but that is 100% a deal breaker for me.

00:54:03   Because like what, I have to pretend

00:54:05   that I didn't get an email before today?

00:54:07   - No, no, I get it, I get it.

00:54:08   For that, I just, I still, we still have the Gmail account.

00:54:12   So I can still open the Gmail app and I can still search.

00:54:15   Because it's still, I can still have credentials,

00:54:17   there's still an inbox, it just doesn't work anymore

00:54:20   in that it doesn't receive or send messages

00:54:22   because my DNS records have changed, right?

00:54:25   But I can still open Gmail and that's actually

00:54:28   why I'm keeping the Gmail app on my device, because if I want to search for something,

00:54:31   I just open Gmail and search the archive.

00:54:33   Yeah, yeah. It would be... Were you scared to do the change? I would be so scared.

00:54:39   I was, big time, but I gotta say this is the... I took screenshots of it. The migration flow

00:54:46   that they have for changing DNS records, so well done. I was literally up and running

00:54:51   in five minutes.

00:54:53   That's really good. That's really, really good. Because that's so important, right?

00:54:56   The instructions were so clearly designed and the whole thing, when they verify your

00:55:01   domain, they have loading indicators.

00:55:04   It's super well done.

00:55:06   From a visual standpoint and from how they give you the instructions, really well done.

00:55:13   You cannot import your old email.

00:55:15   That's definitely going to be the biggest limitation for a lot of companies, I think.

00:55:20   I think they really, really need to find a way to solve that.

00:55:23   I get it.

00:55:24   Yeah.

00:55:25   That's, I guess, perhaps the most important limitation that they have right now.

00:55:29   But for that, like I said, whenever I'm like, "Hey, I need to look for an old email message,"

00:55:36   I open Gmail and I search.

00:55:37   And I don't know, for what I do, like I'm not a salesperson,

00:55:43   so I don't necessarily need to reference old messages as frequently as say—

00:55:46   It's not for sales.

00:55:48   I mean, yeah, sales is part of it for sure, but I mean, I search stuff all the time.

00:55:53   Mm.

00:55:53   And at a certain point, I know I would start to get annoyed that, you know, after six months,

00:55:59   one search is two searches every time for me, right? Where I feel like, oh, is it here?

00:56:04   Oh, no, wait, no, I've got to go back here and look for it as well.

00:56:07   I don't think I search a lot. I'm mostly on the receiving end of email. So the way that

00:56:11   I deal with email is I get email and I got to respond to it and then I'm done. Like,

00:56:16   yeah, every once in a while I search for something. But really, I guess the things that I need

00:56:21   to find later, I also move out of email and I save them like in devon.think or notes,

00:56:28   whatever.

00:56:29   Yeah. This is something that I would really like you to keep aware of over the next few

00:56:34   months. I believe you, what you're saying, but I wonder if there's one of these things

00:56:39   where like you do it more than you think, but you don't think you do it that much. You

00:56:43   know what I mean? So like I would just be keen to know over the next few months, like

00:56:47   often do you find yourself searching through your Gmail archive? I believe that you don't

00:56:52   do it that much, but I'm just keen to just understand that after a few months of use.

00:56:57   Like I think in the past 10 days I've done it twice.

00:56:59   Okay, that's quite a lot.

00:57:01   But...

00:57:02   That's 20%.

00:57:03   Yeah, but over time you think it would go down maybe? Because like...

00:57:08   Yeah, exactly, because the important email becomes the new email that I'm receiving now.

00:57:13   I understand that and agree with that. But again, it's just one of those things that

00:57:16   I would like to know if it changes, you know? For my own purposes.

00:57:20   Sure. Honestly, I think it's gonna be fine.

00:57:23   But as well, it's like, come on, email ain't that big. Like, hey, let me pay you.

00:57:27   I'll pay you an extra amount of money, just let me upload it.

00:57:29   Sure. Anyway. So let me tell you the things I'm loving about Hey, and then maybe somebody will be interested. I don't know.

00:57:38   So, initially I thought that I was liking it because of the novelty effect, and I was

00:57:45   talking about this with John a few days ago.

00:57:49   Sure, there's always a novelty effect when you use something, but I think it's the actual

00:57:54   workflow.

00:57:55   Like, it's the actual system that they have for dealing with email, which is why I'm feeling

00:58:01   like I'm in control again.

00:58:02   I'm honestly like I'm that sense of dread and like feeling overwhelmed as completely

00:58:07   evaporated at this point.

00:58:11   And I don't think it's because it's a new thing.

00:58:13   Like at this point I've been using it between the personal account and then the work account

00:58:18   I'm approaching 20 days of usage.

00:58:20   Like at that point you know the novelty must have worn off I think.

00:58:25   And it's 20 days of something that you're in a lot you know.

00:58:28   Yeah.

00:58:29   Yeah.

00:58:30   The novelty should have worn off by now, if that's what it was.

00:58:33   So basically, the core of Hey is the email workflow that they have for the inbox.

00:58:40   I refuse to call it the inbox, which is a stupid name.

00:58:43   Terrible.

00:58:45   I don't care. I call it the inbox. The feed and the paper trail.

00:58:49   These are the three main places where your email goes.

00:58:52   And so your inbox is for important stuff.

00:58:56   And the feed is for newsletters and social updates, all that.

00:59:01   It's a newsfeed-style section, and that's where all my newsletters go.

00:59:06   And are you manually training all email to say where it goes?

00:59:10   I'm going to get to that, yes.

00:59:11   Okay, sorry.

00:59:12   And the paper trail is where everything else, basically like confirmation emails, receipts, all that kind of stuff, it goes in there.

00:59:18   there. You train the system, which is, you know, the biggest, I guess, the biggest learning

00:59:25   curve is the initial period of training Hey. They have this feature called the Screener.

00:59:31   The Screener is, it lets you screen incoming emails, and it lets you say, "Yes, approve

00:59:37   this for the inbox," or "No, deliver this to my feed," or "No, this should go into the

00:59:42   paper trail," or, even better, it lets you say, "No, I don't want this person or this

00:59:46   newsletter to ever reach me again. And it's not like it will not reach you, it will reach

00:59:52   you, but it will automatically go into a screened out page where the email is delivered to you,

00:59:59   but you don't see it. You don't see it in the screener anymore, you don't see it in

01:00:02   the inbox, you gotta go find it. It's like a level up from spam, basically.

01:00:10   So let me ask you a question about screened out. The only email that ever goes to screened

01:00:14   out is from senders you have explicitly said you don't want to hear from?

01:00:19   Yeah, yes.

01:00:20   Okay, it never tries to work that out on its own?

01:00:22   No, no, no. Every time there's a new contact that tries to email you, you gotta screen

01:00:29   it out yourself. Which, it's a system that I'm really liking because I'm finally,

01:00:34   like, something that I really dislike is every time I try to unsubscribe from newsletters,

01:00:41   it's like a hydra. You cut one head, three pop out.

01:00:43   Well, because they know you exist.

01:00:46   Because they know you exist and it's a battle you're never going to win.

01:00:49   Or like, "Hey, I would love to have this person on your podcast."

01:00:54   This happens all the time.

01:00:55   I don't know if you get these Federico.

01:00:58   Just to try and answer, I probably get about three or four, maybe more emails a day from

01:01:03   PR people wanting to have someone on one of our podcasts.

01:01:08   It is constant and there's nothing you can do to get away from it.

01:01:12   Yeah.

01:01:13   I absolutely love it because all of these folks that have been

01:01:16   bothering me for years, they're finally gone from view. I don't see them again. So that's really nice.

01:01:22   You can mark messages to reply later and you can set them aside. These are basically two holding places.

01:01:30   They are when you mark a message for reply later

01:01:34   it gets its own little stack at the bottom of the inbox and same for the set aside.

01:01:40   When you want to set something aside, it's not because you want to reply, but maybe because it's like an email receipt or something

01:01:46   you're gonna need at some point. You can just set it aside and it gets its own little stack

01:01:49   next to reply later. In fact, right now I have both of these little stacks at the bottom of the inbox at the same time.

01:01:57   This is maybe another thing that some people will not appreciate. You do not archive email in Hay.

01:02:05   Once you're done with the message, in the sense that you've

01:02:10   opened the message or you're replied to a message, it goes into a "previously seen"

01:02:15   section at the bottom of the inbox.

01:02:17   So if I open an email, it disappears?

01:02:20   No, it depends on the section you're in. So the inbox has two sections, "new for you"

01:02:27   and "previously seen". When you click on "new for you", you mark the messages red,

01:02:32   and it stays there, but it goes under "previously seen", but it stays in the inbox. You never

01:02:38   have an empty inbox. Can you mark an email as unread? Oh yeah, sure. So then it goes

01:02:45   back up to NuforYou? It goes back up. And in the feed and the paper trail, you just

01:02:50   don't archive. Things always stay there. You can delete, of course. You can file messages

01:02:56   in labels that you can browse from the main menu, but you don't archive email like you

01:03:01   do in Gmail or, you know, any other email program. So that's another... It kind of just

01:03:07   sounds like archiving by a different name. Kind of. But it's happening automatically.

01:03:14   It's happening automatically. I think it's nice that the new for you and previously seen

01:03:23   separation in the inbox, I think it actually works quite well. I think it's really well

01:03:27   done.

01:03:28   You see, so I think I, I don't think I would like this particular feature because I don't

01:03:35   like all these applications trying to have a smart inbox, right?

01:03:40   I don't want any of that ever, right?

01:03:42   I just want it chronologically.

01:03:44   The only thing I want to do, only one app ever let me do it, is manually rearranging

01:03:49   the sorting of inboxes.

01:03:52   You remember mailbox used to do that?

01:03:55   could like manually move emails.

01:03:57   Oh man, it was the best feature ever.

01:03:58   I can't believe no one's ever.

01:03:59   Rest in peace.

01:04:00   Mailbox, best email app of all time.

01:04:04   Bar none.

01:04:05   In any case, this is not like a smart inbox.

01:04:08   It doesn't do that sorting for you.

01:04:12   Yeah, but like one of the features of a smart inbox is to, like, I've had

01:04:15   this seen this in other apps before where it's like, here's all the new stuff.

01:04:18   Here's all the stuff you've opened, you know?

01:04:20   Like I've had, and I don't, I tend not to like that, but again, I haven't

01:04:24   used "hey" to this level, but when you say that it's like, I don't know how I'd feel about that.

01:04:28   Now we get to the stuff I really like. You can set push notifications

01:04:33   on a per contact or per thread basis. So push notifications are off by default.

01:04:40   You tell "hey" what you want to be notified about, which is perfect for me

01:04:47   because I have a few people I want to be notified about, I have a few services I want to get notifications for.

01:04:52   Everything else, it just goes into the app and when I open it, I deal with it.

01:04:57   I don't want to get notifications for everything.

01:04:59   You can save little bits of text from messages as clips.

01:05:07   These are basically like snippets that you archive and that you save in Hay.

01:05:12   So it can be like a link or something that I think John is using clips for sponsors.

01:05:19   Little bits of information you can archive within Hay and they're saved under the clips section. So if you need to reference

01:05:26   Something from a message in the future. You can save it as a clip and it goes there kind of like

01:05:31   With the Kindle app or whatever kind of like you save like a what are they called?

01:05:36   I don't remember what they're called highlights highlights. Yeah. Yeah, okay kind of like that

01:05:40   You can of course deliver have newsletters delivered to you in the feed

01:05:45   And you can set up the feed as a widget on the home screen

01:05:49   Which is really nice because you can see new newsletters the new issues of newsletters in the hey widget on the home screen

01:05:56   So I thought I thought that was really nice

01:05:58   Now the other thing is called the the bundles I guess

01:06:03   you can get

01:06:05   Different messages from the same sender you can get those delivered to you separately as like separate messages

01:06:14   or you can enable an option called "bundled up". Basically, this applies to separate emails from

01:06:22   repeat senders. In my case, that would be test flight emails. I get a lot of test flight emails,

01:06:28   which always come from the same sender, which is noreply@apple.com, I think, but each one is a

01:06:35   different message. However, they all belong to the same category of stuff, which is new betas.

01:06:41   And so I enabled the Deliver as a Bundle option in the TestFlight Sender info panel,

01:06:49   and now they all get their own little cluster in the paper trail. And I can click it and I see all

01:06:58   emails, but otherwise when they are collapsed, they all take just one line of my paper trail

01:07:06   section. There's a screenshot for you in the Google document that I have attached.

01:07:10   So you can get a sense.

01:07:12   We can't share this but...

01:07:14   No, that's collapsed and then expanded and that's what it looks like.

01:07:18   I understand now. Okay.

01:07:19   Now the "Hey for Work" stuff.

01:07:21   Obviously, we have an email happening with our custom domain.

01:07:26   I mean, that's a given. It's a business account.

01:07:30   Like Spark, "Hey for Work" supports having private conversations with your co-workers within email.

01:07:40   This was one of the features that I absolutely loved about Spark.

01:07:43   I believe it's why you, Michael, are still using Spark.

01:07:46   The ability to chat within messages.

01:07:50   It's fantastic.

01:07:51   It has that as well. It's fantastic. You get notified.

01:07:54   You can have conversations with multiple people.

01:07:57   You can invite people. Really well done.

01:07:59   You as a...

01:08:01   I have a question for you.

01:08:03   Yeah, okay.

01:08:04   So I'm looking at this view, and it looks like the two, you and John,

01:08:08   and having a conversation inside of an email.

01:08:11   - Hold on, I'm getting there.

01:08:13   - Okay, sorry. - Hold on, I'm getting there.

01:08:15   You can set up domain extensions.

01:08:17   So things like sales@, info@, team, or about@,

01:08:22   all that kind of stuff.

01:08:24   You can set it up as an extension,

01:08:25   which is not a team member.

01:08:27   It's just an extension that then delivers messages

01:08:31   to either actual team members or--

01:08:33   - They're aliases.

01:08:34   - Aliases, yes, they're called extensions.

01:08:37   That feature is my, perhaps, I think, alongside the,

01:08:42   well, really the whole workflow

01:08:44   is my favorite feature of AE.

01:08:46   But Collections is a Hey for Work feature

01:08:50   that is absolutely incredible,

01:08:52   and it's changing the way that we,

01:08:53   that Jon and I and Sylvia,

01:08:56   that we manage a lot of internal communications

01:08:59   for Mac stories.

01:09:00   So, a collection is, well, it's a collection, yeah.

01:09:05   So basically the idea is that you, if you have messages,

01:09:10   different email threads, different email messages,

01:09:12   that belong to the same topic or the same project,

01:09:15   you can set those up as a collection.

01:09:18   You can create a collection.

01:09:19   For example, right now we have the

01:09:21   MacStory Selects 2020 Awards happening.

01:09:24   And so we set up a collection for MacStory Selects 2020.

01:09:27   And all emails that belong to that project,

01:09:31   we can add them to that collection.

01:09:34   But it's not just a folder.

01:09:36   Like normally people will do this

01:09:38   and they would get like a mailbox, right?

01:09:40   They would get a folder in Apple Mail or a label in Gmail,

01:09:44   and it would be just a vertical list of messages.

01:09:47   What Hey does, it builds a timeline

01:09:50   for all those conversations, for all those messages,

01:09:53   that includes attachments and your private chats.

01:09:57   You can see a screenshot of a portion of that timeline

01:10:01   in the Google document.

01:10:03   It's an actual timeline from top to bottom,

01:10:06   from newest to oldest, and it breaks down chats,

01:10:10   attachments, email threads, and replies within one view.

01:10:15   And you can easily see all the participants,

01:10:19   all of the attachments, all of the different email threads

01:10:22   in the collection.

01:10:24   It is fantastic.

01:10:25   It's such a unique way of managing big projects

01:10:32   that happen and are discussed in email,

01:10:36   I've never seen it done this way anywhere else before.

01:10:39   - It's a new take on email.

01:10:42   - Yeah, like this is actually like a new,

01:10:46   like besides the screener and the inbox and et cetera,

01:10:50   this is actually like another big new thing

01:10:52   that AI is doing, I think.

01:10:53   And it's by far the most important work feature.

01:10:57   I mean, besides the custom domain name, of course,

01:10:59   this is the thing for us.

01:11:01   Like we do, we have these kinds of projects

01:11:05   throughout the year that involve a lot of email messages,

01:11:08   a lot of back and forth, a lot of contracts to sign,

01:11:10   PDF documents, all that kind of stuff.

01:11:12   And this is perfect for that,

01:11:15   because then it aggregates, right?

01:11:19   Both email and our own communications in context

01:11:24   with a timeline view.

01:11:25   It's really well done.

01:11:26   It's really well done.

01:11:28   - So there's lots more email conversation to be had,

01:11:31   but let's take a quick break and thank our third sponsor this week and that is Bombas.

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01:13:34   Our thanks to Bombas for the support of the show and Relay FM. So I'm liking

01:13:39   this a lot. There's a few things that I would still like Hey2See add an address

01:13:44   over the next few months before the public launch of Hey for Work, I would like to assign

01:13:52   emails to other team members. I don't want to just cc them into a message, I actually

01:13:59   want to have an assign feature to delegate a message to somebody else.

01:14:02   I thought you said it had team sharing.

01:14:05   You can share but you cannot say, like, I actually want to delegate, like, I want to

01:14:10   assign...

01:14:11   Oh, like I don't want to see this anymore.

01:14:12   I don't want to see this anymore and I want to see like a due date or something, you know,

01:14:15   like an actual assignment for a message.

01:14:19   Extensions or aliases.

01:14:20   I would like to have the option of forwarding them both to an internal address and an external

01:14:28   address at the same time.

01:14:30   Right now you've got to choose.

01:14:31   When you set up an extension, it can either go to a team member or it can go to an external

01:14:36   address.

01:14:37   I would like to have both.

01:14:38   Like you could send it out to Gmail or something.

01:14:40   Yeah.

01:14:41   an extension that we're sending out to Gmail, but I would like to send it out to

01:14:45   Gmail and to myself, but that's not possible right now. So that should be

01:14:49   possible. And I want to see deeper integration with shortcuts on iOS, like

01:14:55   actions to compose an email message for sure, but also to search, because you can

01:15:01   search, hey, and actually the search feature is really well done, but I would

01:15:04   like to have more shortcuts actions on iOS. So in conclusion, I'm really happy. I don't

01:15:13   feel overwhelmed by email anymore. It's not like I have not received email these past

01:15:18   ten days. It's part of the job. I get a lot of email every day. But I feel like I am...

01:15:25   This workflow, it puts me in a better position to deal with a lot of email on a daily basis.

01:15:33   The ability to screen out people is, I guess, exactly what I wanted.

01:15:37   I didn't know I wanted this, but it's so welcome.

01:15:41   And it really works well for the way that I think about email.

01:15:45   Like I either want to hear from you or I don't.

01:15:49   But I'm also lazy in that sense.

01:15:51   I don't want to click on subscribe.

01:15:52   I don't want to, you know, just...

01:15:54   It's like you're telling, "Hey, please deal with it.

01:15:57   I don't care."

01:15:59   And I feel like I'm liking this because it combines a very, very opinionated design and

01:16:10   sort of a way to think about email with actual advanced controls and team features, which

01:16:19   is rare to find, I think.

01:16:20   This combination of design and business-y type functionalities, it's hard to find a

01:16:26   a product that tries to do both at the same time, and so I'm really happy with it.

01:16:30   We're using it as a company. And I bet you guys are gonna say, "Oh, I wanna see if in

01:16:37   six months you're gonna still like this and all that." Yeah, yeah, I get it.

01:16:42   Well, that's something I don't feel like I don't need to say. So here's, I have two issues.

01:16:47   One of them I think is for you, one of them is for me. I'll start with the one that's

01:16:50   for me and I think I'm not alone here. I have more than one email address. And, right, like,

01:16:58   and like, surprise, they're different services, you know, like...

01:17:04   I'm forwarding all of them to just one because I realized over the years that I don't actually

01:17:10   need multiple addresses.

01:17:12   I understand that. I know people do that. The idea of forwarding email concerns me.

01:17:18   I'm just not confident that everything would work right.

01:17:22   And if you have an email address that's tied

01:17:25   into a bunch of other services you use,

01:17:28   this is my email address,

01:17:30   which is connected to all of my logins,

01:17:32   and I kind of can't get away from that, would concern me.

01:17:36   So I could imagine a situation that if I wanted to use,

01:17:40   hey, now I'm using two email apps, right?

01:17:42   Which is, I'm sure I could get by

01:17:46   if I thought that hay was good enough. But you know, that's that.

01:17:50   Here's the other thing. There's the bigger problem. You mentioned opinionated,

01:17:53   right? You're locked in now. You're in hay.

01:17:58   Hey. Yeah.

01:17:59   If you don't like what they do or you don't like something about the app,

01:18:03   sorry, bud. That's where your email is.

01:18:05   That is the main reason that I feel worried

01:18:11   about this. So like, you know,

01:18:12   like I've spoken very often about the fact that like I use Spark because I love

01:18:16   their team features and it's like a real big thing for me and that is a lock-in

01:18:20   right but it's still Gmail and so if something happened or if I really just

01:18:26   didn't want to use it or if Spark or Hay went away still Gmail and so like all

01:18:32   right I'll be really bummed out about not having my team sharing but I've

01:18:36   still got my email with Hay no matter whatever they decide to do design wise

01:18:42   feature-wise like you're in now and there's something about that for email

01:18:50   like the idea of going from a open system to a closed system that would be

01:18:56   a big concern for me no I'm not criticizing you or anybody else but like

01:19:01   I'm talking for myself the open system wasn't really working for me so yeah no

01:19:05   exactly it wasn't but you're in it now you like you understand what I'm saying

01:19:11   right? You get why it would concern me. Yeah, to be fair though, if I ever grow tired

01:19:16   of "hey, they have a big giant export your data button that actually exports a standard

01:19:23   inbox file with all your contacts and all your emails." So, you know, worst case scenario

01:19:28   I can always take it out, reimport it back in Apple Mail, and it's like I never left.

01:19:33   Yeah, I understand that as the nuclear option, but there are a lot of like "well this is

01:19:40   annoying kind of things that could happen in between now and then you know what I mean?

01:19:45   Like you know I just I find this whole thing it's also strange to me right because like it is a

01:19:51   closed system that they are trying to get people to leave an open system to go to their closed system

01:19:57   but by the way they also hate closed systems fundamentally as an organization. It's just like

01:20:03   I mentioned this when the the whole hay and apple duac all happened the first time like it was just

01:20:09   this really weird thing to me of like we believe in openness and never having locked things

01:20:16   locked down but also bring all your email to us.

01:20:20   Sure.

01:20:21   It's strange.

01:20:22   Yeah it's just I am really very very intrigued by this right.

01:20:30   I have been the whole time because boy do I get a lot of email and if something can

01:20:35   try and make it better. Like I've got this like cobbled together set of things now right?

01:20:41   Like between Spark and Sanebox it's okay but it could always be better. There's only so

01:20:48   much that those two things can do without actually controlling the email. You know like

01:20:54   I'm sure if I went all in on using the Gmail app I might be happier too because again it's

01:20:59   like Gmail does some of this stuff or tries to but I just the main thing that

01:21:04   that gives me pause is going all in. It's a big it's a big thing to just do

01:21:13   and what I plan to do is when they have their when they when they announce when

01:21:20   they release this work thing this custom domain thing I have another email

01:21:25   address like a Myke Hurley.net email address. I'm gonna move that one to Hey

01:21:30   and see how it goes because I have a @hey.com email address but I don't want

01:21:36   to use that. I don't want a seventh email address that right like I'm good

01:21:41   at this point but like I'm gonna move one of my other domain emails to

01:21:48   this one to really give it more of a try with actual real email than I'm getting

01:21:54   and see how it goes. Because it's very intriguing to me, and I get it, right? If you do own

01:22:02   the system, you can do really interesting stuff. And so I hear it and I'm like "oh this

01:22:09   is really interesting to me" but also leaving that open system to go to a closed one, that's

01:22:17   a real big jump for me that I don't know if I'm willing to make.

01:22:22   And I thought about it, you know, really long. And the thing is, I'm always in favor of open

01:22:29   systems in general. Like, you know me, I'm all for open stuff. But at some point, because

01:22:37   this is about my company and we're running a serious and thankfully growing business,

01:22:45   And ultimately I realized, you know, I don't really have a lot of personal email these

01:22:50   days.

01:22:52   All the email that I get is work stuff.

01:22:55   And so if I'm treating this as just another work product, just like I'm using Slack, I

01:23:01   guess I can use a proprietary email service.

01:23:03   I don't really get personal email.

01:23:05   That was another realization that I had a few weeks ago.

01:23:09   I was looking at it and it's like, who emails me?

01:23:14   can either ping me on iMessage or they can call or they can text me on WhatsApp, I don't

01:23:19   really get personal email, you know? And so I figured even if I'm gonna get a bunch of

01:23:26   personal messages on the Mac Stories address, that's fine because ultimately that's my identity

01:23:33   on the internet, right? And so that was another realization of like, I don't really need to

01:23:39   have, like personal email and work email. Everything is email and ultimately everything

01:23:46   is work email, you know. So I guess the big change was to stop thinking of email as "Oh,

01:23:55   I need to use an open standard." Like for example, I'm always going to write my stuff

01:24:00   in Markdown, right, and plain text. But like this is just another service for work. And

01:24:07   And I think Slack is the closest thing to it. This is like Slack but for email. It's

01:24:17   a service that I'm locked in, but it lets me work faster.

01:24:23   The funny thing is Slack was supposed to be Slack for email, but that never really panned

01:24:26   out did it?

01:24:28   Yeah, I mean look, I am not ruling this out for me in the future.

01:24:35   I have a lot of people that would have to be dragged kicking and screaming if I really,

01:24:42   really wanted to do this.

01:24:43   One of them is on this call right now.

01:24:47   So it seems unlikely, but I am going to try it out more seriously with an email address

01:24:54   that's in active use before I would even start to consider it. But look, if they make this

01:25:01   work and continue adding to it, it becomes more of an interesting idea, right?

01:25:06   Yeah. And look, I mean, the folks at Basecamp have been around for more than a decade at

01:25:12   this point, so it's like, it's a serious company, it's been around forever in internet times.

01:25:17   Sure, but it doesn't mean that hay is going to work.

01:25:20   No, that's true. But it's like they're also not the you know

01:25:23   New startup from from Europe who is basically unknown with no portfolio of previous work

01:25:31   Yeah, I don't I don't I wouldn't just I wouldn't go into this system

01:25:36   From Rando company exactly be yeah, right. So it's like not nobody would you have to have some kind of like

01:25:46   cache, but again, it still doesn't mean after year one that they can keep this service going.

01:25:53   It doesn't mean that.

01:25:54   Absolutely.

01:25:55   Yeah.

01:25:56   If in 11 months, you know, like everyone starts getting their, "Hey, do you want to renew?

01:26:00   Hey, do you want to renew?"

01:26:02   And everybody's like, "No, I don't use this."

01:26:04   That's going to be a problem for them, right?

01:26:06   And then, you know, but you're always taking risks.

01:26:11   I mean, we trust Google with stuff.

01:26:13   they close down services all the time. But yeah, so I understand why you've done it.

01:26:20   I'm jealous of the features that you have. But I just don't think I could do it right

01:26:27   now.

01:26:28   Yeah, it was a big change and I'm thankful that Jon agreed with me. I was sort of dreading

01:26:36   the conversation of like, "Hey, what do you think about upending your entire email

01:26:41   workflow because I really look forward to future email app coverage on MacStories.net.

01:26:47   Yeah, there's gonna be none. It's gonna be intriguing to see how you manage that one.

01:26:51   We got to the email screen, couldn't sign in, so that's the end of that app I suppose.

01:26:57   My issues are what Myke shared. I have multiple email addresses. And Federica,

01:27:04   I totally get what you're saying, but I like, I have three accounts. I have a personal one,

01:27:08   I have one for like 512 pixels freelance world and then have one for relay and I like that they're all

01:27:13   Separate and I like using a native app on my Mac, and I don't think hey offers that at this point

01:27:20   Oh, yeah

01:27:21   He should also offer a native app because they what they have is electron

01:27:24   You ain't never gonna get it never happening. I'm using it in Safari. I'm using Hayn Safari

01:27:30   Do they even have like a quote native app on iOS? Yeah, the iPhone app feels okay. Yeah, it's native

01:27:37   it actually it also has like multi-window support and widgets and yeah it's actually

01:27:41   very it's nicely done. What I'm gonna do is and I think John is actually reviewing this

01:27:48   on Mac stories there's an app called Unite on the Mac which is like fluid but modern

01:27:56   it lets you turn web apps into like desktop wrappers but it's like yeah and there's a new

01:28:02   new version coming, I think, so I'm gonna be playing around with that. I think from

01:28:08   the same developer, like I believe the name is...

01:28:14   BZG apps?

01:28:16   BZG apps, yes. The same developer also makes Coherence. So basically Unite lets you turn

01:28:24   web apps into desktop apps and uses WebKit as an engine, and Coherence uses Chromium

01:28:30   instead. And I believe Coherence supports multiple tabs. I don't know or think that

01:28:38   Unite supports tabs, because what I want to do is I want to make a single "Hey, desktop"

01:28:45   app and have two different tabs for two different accounts. Because I want to have my personal

01:28:52   account and the MacStory's pixel address in there.

01:28:55   Oh yeah, how does it handle multiple?

01:28:58   It doesn't. You got to switch between them.

01:29:00   And like, what is switching like?

01:29:03   Log in and log out.

01:29:04   Oh no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no

01:29:09   no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no

01:29:10   no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no

01:29:11   no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no

01:29:12   no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no

01:29:13   no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no

01:29:14   No, no, let me finish. So you don't get push notifications then. Let me finish. You got

01:29:21   only got, you can switch in the native app. You can switch in the iOS and iPad OS app.

01:29:26   You cannot switch without logging out on the web. All right. But, but okay. In this switching,

01:29:32   if you're switched into the, your personal, do you get notifications for the max stories?

01:29:37   I don't know. Probably not. I don't know. Let's see. Pixel. Well, the thing is I haven't

01:29:45   said anything to notify me. That's the problem. We can follow up on that. We can follow up.

01:29:50   I will enable notifications. Yeah, I would like to know that because that's pretty big

01:29:56   stuff. So, I mean, look, they could have, and I'm sure I would be flabbergasted if they

01:30:04   they do not work out a unified inbox approach at some point.

01:30:08   - Unified inbox.

01:30:09   - Yeah, what would they call it?

01:30:10   U-mified.

01:30:11   - U-mified inbox.

01:30:13   - Yeah, a unified inbox approach at some point in the future

01:30:18   because it's kind of key, especially considering,

01:30:21   you know, a really great thing for their business

01:30:25   is to get, like, they want businesses to sign up

01:30:29   and then those people were like, I really like this,

01:30:31   let me get a personal email address as well, right?

01:30:33   That's kind of quite an important thing of growing their business in the long run.

01:30:38   Yeah, so I'm gonna try and make a desktop thing.

01:30:43   I know that talking about Hay raises a lot of feelings, especially in our kind of audience.

01:30:51   But ultimately it's a good service, it's a great service and the Hay for Work beta, I guess, is really good.

01:30:59   really good. We're gonna pay for it and let us work faster, better. I know that folks

01:31:07   are gonna make fun of the fact that, you know, it's hay and people like to... it's a complex

01:31:14   situation, right? Because you gotta separate the product from the public story and the

01:31:19   public controversy, I guess. But whatever. Like, ultimately this is just a work tool.

01:31:26   And personally speaking, it made me realize a lot of things about my relationship with

01:31:32   email, which is, I don't really the most important one by far was I don't really get personal

01:31:38   email. Everything is somewhat work related.

01:31:42   Well, let me rephrase. You do. You just don't think of it like that. Like when I talk about

01:31:47   personal email, like my mom is an emailing me, but I get like, she emails me, here's

01:31:52   the thing I bought, here's the receipt for it." Like that's personal, right? But you

01:31:58   just have it all go to @maxstories. Yeah, I don't like that. Yeah. Right? So I don't

01:32:05   do that either. But that is like... But also my mom does an email. She emails me. Well

01:32:10   I just said that too. I don't... She asks where the bees are. I don't correspond with

01:32:19   people by email, but I get email for things that I deem on being personal, right?

01:32:26   That's actually been the case for years, like it's been like my, the receipts for the games

01:32:30   that I buy on the Nintendo eShop, they go to my Gmail address, but the Gmail address

01:32:36   gets forwarded to the, even before it went to my Gmail for work, to the G Suite address,

01:32:45   and that's been happening for years.

01:32:48   you say like I don't get personal email. That's personal. That is personal. It just goes to

01:32:54   the one email address. Yeah. Which is like very valid. And honestly, I kind of wish I

01:32:59   felt that way. So I didn't have to sign in with five email addresses every time I get

01:33:04   a new device. I really don't. I really don't want to switch between multiple email apps

01:33:10   or multiple email addresses. Well, unified inboxes. I mean, your app doesn't have it.

01:33:18   No, but even then, for example, even when I was using mail with multiple addresses,

01:33:25   right? Yeah.

01:33:26   I was never switching between the different accounts in the sidebar.

01:33:33   You know, I don't do that either. Always living in the all inboxes view. So

01:33:38   does it really matter if they're going to separate places? You get what I mean? Like,

01:33:42   does it even matter if all you're going to do is use the unified inbox? Aren't you already...

01:33:47   I understand what you mean, but I wouldn't want to have a bunch of accounts tied to a

01:33:58   business address.

01:33:59   Well, they're not tied, they're just for wording messages.

01:34:02   Right, but let's imagine this scenario where Steven leaves Relay FM to get a job.

01:34:10   If you want to hear what that job is, by the way, it's a fantastic segment in our members

01:34:14   pre-show, you want to go to getconnectedpro.co. It's legitimately one of the best pre-shows

01:34:20   we have done. I recommend if you've been on the fence about trying out connected pro,

01:34:25   you should go to getconnectedpro.co, sign up, give us $5, you can check out the pre-show

01:34:32   for this one. If you really don't like it, cancel. But I bet you if you really like this

01:34:36   show, if you enjoy the japes of this show, there are way more japes in the pre and post

01:34:40   shows, even in the main show, this one's a perfect example of that. So in this scenario

01:34:45   where Steven's like, I'm done, and then he shuts down the relay FM email, I'm out of

01:34:50   all my email. How do I, what do I do for iCloud? No, no, no. Can you repeat that again? What's

01:34:55   the scenario? If Steven leaves and the @relay.fm email account goes because Steven's left and

01:35:03   he's left me. And so there's no relay FM anymore. Where's my email? It's gone. So then

01:35:10   all of the stuff, my personal stuff, is gone.

01:35:14   The things that you forward from Gmail, at least what I do, is I say "forward to this

01:35:20   address and then archive the copy, but keep the copy".

01:35:23   Yeah, no, I don't want to do all of that.

01:35:25   Oh, look, but you don't want to do anything though.

01:35:27   No, I just want the distinct email accounts in a unified inbox.

01:35:32   I'm not saying you're wrong, but that's what I want.

01:35:36   The idea of having all the email forwarded to all these different places just seems,

01:35:41   to me, madness.

01:35:42   It's not what I want to do.

01:35:44   Okay.

01:35:45   I think that does it.

01:35:47   Email.

01:35:48   I think we're done.

01:35:49   If you want to find links to stuff we spoke about this week, head on over to our website,

01:35:54   relay.fm/connected/322 is where you'll find those this week.

01:36:00   While you're there, there's a bunch of fun stuff you can do.

01:36:03   As Myke said, you can join and get access to Connected Pro, which you should totally

01:36:07   do because it's really awesome.

01:36:09   You can also send us email with feedback or follow up.

01:36:13   You can find us all online.

01:36:15   You can find Myke on Twitter as @imyke.

01:36:19   Myke is the host of a bunch of podcasts and he has a Twitch channel.

01:36:24   Anything fun going on soon, Myke?

01:36:25   Yeah, I'm gonna be streaming again on Friday at 11 a.m. Eastern Time, 4 p.m. GMT.

01:36:34   Gonna be unboxing some keyboard related stuff over at Myke.live.

01:36:38   Cool, sounds good.

01:36:40   Federico is also on the internet.

01:36:42   He's the editor-in-chief of MacStories.net.

01:36:45   You can go check that out, read about their amazing email coverage and other mobile applications.

01:36:51   You can find him on Twitter @viti.cci.

01:36:55   Federico I have a question for you.

01:36:58   In your mind what is the most essential part of a friendship?

01:37:02   Really?

01:37:03   Um...

01:37:04   Um...

01:37:05   Synced views on email.

01:37:07   Email compatibility.

01:37:11   I think the most important part is not being afraid of being honest with the other person.

01:37:19   Oh that's so good man.

01:37:21   in the position where even if you disagree with someone, you're not afraid of their reaction

01:37:28   because you have that kind of relationship. Or it's like similarly being able to tell

01:37:32   someone, a friend something that you wouldn't say in public. Because you trust that that

01:37:38   person understands you. That and telling them when they're wrong about something or not

01:37:45   being afraid of the react, yeah, have the freedom to be honest. I think that's, that's,

01:37:51   that is essential in a, in a friendship. Yes. That's good advice. I like it. I'd like to

01:37:55   thank our sponsors this week, Squarespace, Pingdom and Bombas. I didn't tell you where

01:38:01   you can find me. I'm on the internet too. @ismh on Twitter. You can find me on, hey,

01:38:07   i smh@hey.com for the next 14 days until my trial ends and I never log in again. So I

01:38:13   I guess people should fill up that inbox, right?

01:38:16   You guys are never going to let this go.

01:38:18   This is going to be the next thing

01:38:19   that you make fun of me for.

01:38:21   You're never going to let this one go.

01:38:22   I know.

01:38:23   No, no.

01:38:23   I don't think we need to make fun--

01:38:25   no one's making fun of you.

01:38:26   I just think it's funny that he did that.

01:38:28   So here's the thing.

01:38:29   Stephen, you want to test it out?

01:38:30   OK, everyone, email ismh@hey.com,

01:38:34   and Stephen can test out, hey.

01:38:36   And then maybe next week, you can come back

01:38:38   and say what it's like after everyone emails you.

01:38:41   Perfect.

01:38:42   I think that's a fun test for you.

01:38:44   I expect tens of thousands of emails.

01:38:46   ISMH.

01:38:48   At hey.com.

01:38:49   I'm gonna forward all of my emails.

01:38:52   Nope, nope, don't do that.

01:38:53   Well, you know, you'll find out a lot of things

01:38:57   about people, that's on them really.

01:38:59   I don't know where we go now.

01:39:01   I think the show's just over.

01:39:02   Until next time, say goodbye.

01:39:03   Arrivederci.

01:39:04   Cheerio.