308: Wocka Wocka; dingdingdingding


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   Hello and welcome to Connected, episode 308. It is made possible by our sponsors

00:00:15   Pingdom and Mack Weldon. My name is Stephen Hackett and I'm joined by Mr.

00:00:20   Myke Hurley. Hello. Oh hi. Oh wait, wait. Hi Steven. Hey, so we're just gonna go right into that? I

00:00:33   think it's a good idea to do that. Okay, so our membership special for all Relay FM members,

00:00:41   I published it about two hours ago, and I'm just gonna play you a little trailer here. Hello,

00:00:48   Hello and welcome to Connected's 2020 Membership Special.

00:00:54   I hit the microphone for a third time.

00:00:57   I need to get better at that.

00:00:59   I am playing Pokemon Sword and I thought I would give you a tour of my new team.

00:01:07   An Apple Extended 2 keyboard.

00:01:12   (keyboard clicking)

00:01:14   Man, that was a real special time in my life editing that.

00:01:17   - How did it feel to edit it?

00:01:21   Did you feel anything?

00:01:23   - I don't ever feel anything.

00:01:24   No, I'm just kidding.

00:01:25   Really, no, Federico is very upsetting.

00:01:29   'Cause he was very quiet.

00:01:33   I really struggled to get his loud enough

00:01:35   where you could hear it.

00:01:37   And his is quieter than ours in the episode.

00:01:39   Like I just did the best I could.

00:01:41   but it is spectacular.

00:01:44   So go check it out.

00:01:45   - What I think that that special show more than anything

00:01:48   is that we all are promising ASMR creators,

00:01:53   but have a lot of work left to do.

00:01:57   - Speak for yourself.

00:01:58   - To really, "Mm, no, you're a bit raspy.

00:02:01   "We all had our own problems.

00:02:03   "Federico was too quiet, you were too raspy,

00:02:05   "and I kept bumping the microphone."

00:02:07   - Yeah.

00:02:08   - So, you know, but like this is our first shot, you know?

00:02:10   But it was very fun.

00:02:12   I was sitting in my studio earlier

00:02:14   and Adina was listening to it

00:02:15   and I could just keep hearing her chuckle away.

00:02:17   So it's definitely worth it.

00:02:19   If you're a Relay FM member of any type,

00:02:21   where you're supporting any show

00:02:23   or just the standard membership,

00:02:24   you would get access to this.

00:02:25   It's all in the crossover feed,

00:02:27   which is where we put tons of wonderful content,

00:02:31   hundreds of hours of content in the crossover feed.

00:02:34   Now, if you are not sure how to get that feed

00:02:36   and you are a member,

00:02:38   there's a link in the show notes

00:02:39   called the Relay of Home crossover feed.

00:02:40   If you click that, it will take you straight

00:02:42   to the memberful page, log in and you can subscribe.

00:02:45   It's very easy to do.

00:02:47   If you want to become a Relay of Home member

00:02:48   and support this show, go to connectedpro.co

00:02:52   or getconnectedpro.co.

00:02:55   There's lots of wonderful domains for you

00:02:57   and you'll be able to get access to those member bonuses

00:03:00   as well as a special feed of this show,

00:03:03   which includes pre and post show content and no ads.

00:03:06   So it's a wonderful deal for just $5 a month.

00:03:09   I have some huge news.

00:03:10   - It's just, I am so bummed that Federico isn't here

00:03:14   right now because now I have to deal with this on my own.

00:03:17   - Oh, you mean the weight of congratulating me

00:03:20   is just on your shoulders.

00:03:21   - I don't know what you think

00:03:22   you're getting congratulated for.

00:03:24   - Apple has officially addressed and fixed #GreenGate.

00:03:29   So last week, actually right after we recorded,

00:03:35   like I really wish this had been breaking during the show

00:03:38   because I think that would have been really funny.

00:03:40   - It would have been better than me having to do with it now.

00:03:42   - Apple released iOS 13.6.1, also iPad OS 13.6.1.

00:03:47   Can we just, just as a side, can we just use iOS

00:03:52   as shorthand, meaning iOS and iPad OS?

00:03:54   It's so wordy to talk about these things now.

00:03:57   I find it very frustrating.

00:03:59   - Yeah, I think you can say iPad OS on its own,

00:04:04   but otherwise iOS applies to everything.

00:04:07   Yes, I think that is, I think I'm down with that.

00:04:12   - Yeah, but like, this is the problem though.

00:04:13   Like, we agree that that makes sense.

00:04:15   But then it's like a while ago,

00:04:16   me and Jason agreed that we would just say 13 inch iPad,

00:04:19   but you stopped doing it.

00:04:20   Like, you know, you just,

00:04:22   'cause it's difficult to get the world

00:04:24   to come along with you, you know?

00:04:26   - Well, the world has come along with me.

00:04:27   So I broke this.

00:04:30   I mean, honestly, like the pandemic is small potatoes

00:04:32   compared to this issue with iOS.

00:04:34   - Oh my God.

00:04:35   some devices you would wake them up or in certain circumstances you'd have a

00:04:39   green tint to your display. I don't care. 13.6.1 fixed it. I have lots of

00:04:45   questions about this though so in the 9to5Mac article, according to Apple this

00:04:49   problem was caused by thermal management failure and is now fixed. Clearly this

00:04:54   was a thermal corner they could back themselves out of. This one was no problem.

00:05:00   Wow.

00:05:01   I could get right out of this corner.

00:05:03   So it's fixed.

00:05:07   You know, the year of Steven continues.

00:05:08   I feel like if you were having a thermal issue with the phone, other things would be happening

00:05:13   rather than just the screen going green.

00:05:15   I have so many questions.

00:05:16   Like did it only affect the screen or is that all they're talking about?

00:05:20   Why wasn't it every phone?

00:05:23   And how can you just fix it?

00:05:26   Like it's all very strange.

00:05:29   Honestly, I'm pleased it has been fixed so you will now never have to talk about it again

00:05:33   Well, I put it on my calendar as a repeating thing so we can talk about it next year

00:05:38   Why because I have his skate on there. I should have green gate on there, too

00:05:42   I feel like the hissing thing was a real thing the green thing not a thing like it's not like

00:05:49   You had like a million views on this podcast because you spoke about your screen going green. You don't know that

00:05:58   No, I do. I really do. Look, if every time we spoke about a screen going green and we

00:06:07   got a million listens to an episode, we would be breaking news left, right, and center,

00:06:11   my friend. We would be going for it. I would be talking about the fact that we'll call

00:06:17   it camera refresh gate, which is what I've been dealing with the last couple of weeks.

00:06:21   We would really go for it. We'd just create the absolute clickbait of podcasts, but that's

00:06:26   That's not how it works around here.

00:06:28   So yeah, I'm glad that I could help humanity through this.

00:06:33   It is the fall, Myke.

00:06:35   September is right around the corner.

00:06:37   September is National Childhood Cancer Awareness Month.

00:06:41   For the last several years, we've been taking this time to raise money for St. Jude Children's

00:06:45   Research Hospital, an institution that treats children with cancer and other life-threatening

00:06:50   diseases both here in Memphis and using their research all around the world.

00:06:55   We are really excited to announce our second annual podcast.

00:06:58   So if you missed this last year, it was it is a six hour live video show that we put

00:07:04   on so Myke and I host it.

00:07:06   We have a bunch of relay FM people doing segments are coming on and off.

00:07:10   We have some interviews with some St. Jude people.

00:07:12   A lot of fun stuff planned.

00:07:14   That is going to be Friday, September 18 from two to 8pm Eastern.

00:07:19   So mark that off on your calendar.

00:07:22   Six hours come hang out with us.

00:07:24   It'll be at twitch.tv/relayfm.

00:07:27   We'll be talking a lot about this and sharing links

00:07:30   leading up to that.

00:07:31   But that's a month off.

00:07:33   You're thinking, well, why are we talking about this now?

00:07:34   It's because our fundraising starts now.

00:07:37   And so if you go to stjude.org/relay,

00:07:41   you can donate to this awesome cause.

00:07:44   And what's amazing about it is all of the research

00:07:46   and the treatment and housing and meals,

00:07:50   everything is paid for by donations.

00:07:53   families never pay St. Jude a dime for their care.

00:07:56   I've got a son who's been a St. Jude patient now

00:07:59   since he was six months old,

00:08:00   and he's getting ready to be 12,

00:08:01   and we've never paid anything for his life-saving treatment,

00:08:05   which has included just countless things.

00:08:07   So it's really awesome.

00:08:09   We'd love you to join us

00:08:11   in supporting St. Jude again this year, stjude.org/relay.

00:08:16   - So we have a very, very large goal.

00:08:19   - Yes.

00:08:20   - So last year we started out,

00:08:22   we wanted to raise like $50,000 and we were all absolutely blown away.

00:08:27   By the end of the campaign, we raised $315,000.

00:08:32   Absolutely incredible.

00:08:33   Some research had been taken up by the wonderful people at AllSack, which is

00:08:38   the fundraiser now I'm seeing Jude and to their understanding, it was the

00:08:41   largest podcast related fundraiser in history, which is absolutely incredible.

00:08:46   And it's something that I and Steven and we're all so unbelievably proud of.

00:08:51   So we thought let's do it again, shall we?

00:08:53   We want to raise at least $315,000.

00:08:56   I know that's a lot of money.

00:08:57   It's a massive ask, but we believe in you,

00:09:00   the Relay of Home community,

00:09:02   that we can do this again together.

00:09:04   This is a difficult time for so many people, right?

00:09:07   Like, money is difficult.

00:09:10   Times are hard.

00:09:12   But institutions like St. Jude still need the money

00:09:16   to continue pushing their research

00:09:19   into curing childhood cancer, right?

00:09:22   Like they have done such incredible things

00:09:25   that have affected our lives personally,

00:09:28   and also the lives of countless individuals around the world.

00:09:33   I believe that the Relay FM community

00:09:35   can get to this level again.

00:09:38   I want you to prove me right.

00:09:39   So go to stjou.org/relay, donate whatever you can.

00:09:44   If your company does corporate fun, like charity matching,

00:09:49   How do people get in touch with us, Stephen?

00:09:51   Like, so if you can, if you donate and your company will also match, that's

00:09:55   like something that we can do, right?

00:09:57   So they email us.

00:09:58   Yes.

00:09:59   So if your employer will match, I need some sort of documentation of the amount

00:10:06   and you can send it directly to me, stephen@relay.fm and I'll make sure

00:10:11   that it gets added into the campaign.

00:10:13   So it's, um, that's really awesome.

00:10:15   It's awesome that companies do it.

00:10:16   Double your money, right?

00:10:18   So if you work for a large company,

00:10:20   they probably do some kind of corporate matching.

00:10:23   So if you want to donate and be so generous to donate,

00:10:26   you can also get your company to donate as well, right?

00:10:29   And that was something that really helped us

00:10:31   get to the level that we got to last year.

00:10:32   So seriously, this is so important to us.

00:10:36   And I really hope that you'll come along with us for this.

00:10:40   And you're going to hear a lot about it

00:10:41   because this is something that we want to continue doing.

00:10:45   So you're going to hear a lot about it now

00:10:46   throughout September and also we've changed all our artwork to gold because

00:10:51   that's the yellow gold what's the it's an actual name for the color it's like a

00:10:55   yellowy gold color yeah it's yellowy gold color yellowy gold is like the is

00:11:00   the color for childhood cancer awareness yes so from now and throughout the end

00:11:06   of September you'll be seeing that appear in lots of relay FM artwork so

00:11:12   yeah that's a thank you Myke thank you listeners it is an exciting time every

00:11:16   year to get to do this is very humbling so I'm excited to do a podcastathon.

00:11:20   I'm so excited for the podcastathon because last time we didn't really know

00:11:24   what it was gonna be right like all we knew is we were gonna be doing something

00:11:29   for six hours like leading up to it it was hard for us to talk about the

00:11:33   podcastathon because we'd never done one before but this time we know what it's

00:11:37   like because we've done one before and it is full of Japes full of guests it is

00:11:44   like your favorite podcasters putting on a telethon. Like that's what we thought

00:11:49   it was gonna be and that's what it ended up being and we have some really fun

00:11:53   things that we've learned from and that we're building on. It is gonna be an

00:11:57   absolutely fantastic time and I mean we've all got some more time at home

00:12:01   right so make sure you block off that calendar time on September 18th from 2

00:12:06   to 8 p.m. Eastern.

00:12:07   Should we get into some tiny topics?

00:12:10   Yes.

00:12:11   Do you remember last year when Apple opened up

00:12:14   the iPhone repair program,

00:12:16   so you could go into a bunch of like third party places

00:12:18   and get actual parts?

00:12:20   So that has been expanded to cover the Mac.

00:12:26   And so before this,

00:12:27   to get genuine Apple parts for your Mac,

00:12:30   you had to go to the Apple store

00:12:34   or an Apple authorized service provider,

00:12:36   which that's a difficult business to be in.

00:12:39   We talked about that before,

00:12:40   But this is a shift in this strategy.

00:12:43   So there will be more locations that you can

00:12:48   take your Mac into to have repairs done

00:12:51   with, again, genuine Apple parts.

00:12:53   So if you need a logic board or a video card

00:12:56   or whatever it may be, keyboard and top case,

00:12:59   more locations will be able to do it,

00:13:01   which is fantastic because in a lot of parts of the world,

00:13:04   there's not an Apple store nearby for a lot of people.

00:13:08   And so these smaller shops already exist.

00:13:12   They'll now be able to take part of this program as well.

00:13:14   And I'm glad to see that.

00:13:15   - I mean, it's a good thing to see them expanding

00:13:18   for a bunch of reasons.

00:13:19   I mean, especially right now,

00:13:20   it's good because it enables more small business owners

00:13:23   to be able to make money during the pandemic.

00:13:26   And it also takes the burden off of Apple

00:13:28   for not needing to have everybody come to their store.

00:13:30   Right?

00:13:31   Like it spreads people around a little bit, which is great.

00:13:34   Like let alone it being good for the fact that like

00:13:36   there aren't Apple stores everywhere.

00:13:38   There are service providers basically everywhere, right?

00:13:42   And especially where there aren't Apple stores,

00:13:44   the service providers do,

00:13:46   like they pop up and they do great work.

00:13:48   And now being able to have Macs taken into these companies

00:13:51   and these shops is even better.

00:13:53   - Yep.

00:13:54   - Beats One is no longer always on worldwide.

00:13:57   - Oh no, what happened?

00:13:59   - They shut it down, they've rebranded it.

00:14:01   Beats One is now Apple Music One.

00:14:04   for this part it's basically they've basically rebranded it uh apple music one is just what

00:14:08   beats one was so it's like a radio show with radio shows inside of it so it's like not all radio

00:14:14   networks or stations are like this where they'll have a dj that plays tracks but then also have

00:14:21   guest djs come in and talk and like this is a very british radio thing i don't know if this is a thing

00:14:27   that happens on american radio where you'll have like such and such person has their radio show and

00:14:33   and it's on at this time every week.

00:14:35   Basically, it's a podcast with music, right?

00:14:38   That's pretty much what they're like.

00:14:40   So they're keeping what they had going

00:14:42   and adding in new shows.

00:14:44   They rotate the people out, so they'll have like,

00:14:47   they have mainstays, people like Elton John has had,

00:14:50   like Elton John showing on Beats 1

00:14:52   and Apple Music 1 has been around for ages,

00:14:54   but they're adding lots of new people in now.

00:14:56   Haim, Nile Rodgers, and Lady Gaga are coming in

00:14:59   to host their own shows for a bit, and some people,

00:15:02   like it's like a rotating cast of characters. I know that Billie Eilish has a popular show

00:15:07   as well, Apple's favorite artist, Billie Eilish.

00:15:10   They invented awards just to give her.

00:15:13   Exactly, just to give Billie Eilish. They're doing that stuff, that's the same. Apple's

00:15:19   also introduced some new stations, so there's Apple Music Hits, which plays top songs from

00:15:24   the 80s, 90s, and noughties. Is that good? I wish I hadn't said that now. Noughties?

00:15:30   There isn't a good phrase for it, right?

00:15:32   Yeah, 'cause "oughts" is bad too.

00:15:33   I don't like "oughts" 'cause...

00:15:35   Would you say that the hit station really slaps?

00:15:37   You're getting closer to understanding what that phrase means.

00:15:41   Like, you're nearly there.

00:15:44   It's good.

00:15:45   So Stephen keeps saying "slaps" to us.

00:15:48   This is just like his thing at the moment, is that for some reason the phrase that Stephen's

00:15:52   picked up in his life.

00:15:53   Where did you get that one from, do you think?

00:15:56   The kids.

00:15:57   Not my kids, just youth out in the world.

00:15:59   Yeah, you're getting closer to nailing that one.

00:16:04   So as well as the music, which that hit station actually does sound like fun to me.

00:16:09   Like the top hits from those decades, I think I would enjoy that.

00:16:13   And Apple Music Country as well, playing new and classic country songs.

00:16:18   So these are the new stations coming in.

00:16:20   This feels like the beginning of the end of the Beats brand.

00:16:22   And it's a thing that everyone, not everyone, it's a thing that lots of people have been

00:16:24   debating for a while.

00:16:26   I mean, at some point I don't believe that the Beats brand will exist.

00:16:31   I don't know how long it's going to be until that happens, but I feel like this is the

00:16:37   start of that going away, right?

00:16:40   I think so, at least on this content side.

00:16:44   What do you think about the hardware side though?

00:16:46   Eventually, yes.

00:16:49   It seems to me that they're going to scrub it of Apple Music stuff and then the headphones

00:16:55   will kind of, over time, slowly transition. I think it makes sense. I think it's confusing

00:17:03   to people who don't know the history that some Apple Music features are called Beats

00:17:07   and branded that way and others aren't. And I think that Apple Music is a pretty strong

00:17:13   brand, right? It's easy to remember, you just know what it is, you don't have to search

00:17:18   for it, like it's just Apple Music, right? So I think it makes sense to bring all that

00:17:22   into the fold.

00:17:23   Yeah, just to mention in case people had forgotten or didn't know, Apple bought Beats, right?

00:17:30   And not only did they get the headphones, they also picked up a music streaming service

00:17:35   called Beats Music, which was the streaming service that me and Federico were using at

00:17:40   the time and were very happy with.

00:17:42   Apple bought that and they were doing human curation and all that kind of stuff and rolled

00:17:48   a lot of that up into what would become Apple Music, including hiring Jimmy Iovine, Dr. Dre.

00:17:56   It was a very peculiar $3 billion acquisition because there were so many ramifications from

00:18:02   it.

00:18:03   Originally, people were buying their headphones, but then Apple, and it kind of made sense

00:18:07   at the time, yeah, they got the headphones, but they were kind of buying their way into

00:18:10   the music streaming service, which ultimately was and has become more important for Apple

00:18:16   than the Beats headphone brand because they've created their own headphone brand which is

00:18:24   not really arguably but is more important now. AirPods in the cultural significance

00:18:29   are much greater than Beats which is probably another reason why over time it is likely

00:18:35   that they will phase out the Beats brand as the AirPods brand continues to rise especially

00:18:41   if they do do what we think they're going to do and release all kinds of air pods, right?

00:18:47   Like a cheaper model, a sport model, and over the ear model, which is what is rumoured to

00:18:53   be the case. At that point, I mean...

00:18:57   Yeah, why would you keep both of them, you know?

00:19:00   Why would you keep them? You don't need them at that point.

00:19:01   I mean, Beats does have an angle to it that, like, there is a Beats sound, and a lot of

00:19:06   people like that sound and it's kind of what a lot of people equate with the

00:19:10   brand and Apple's done a pretty good job at diluting that over time I think I

00:19:15   think there was a time where beats all sounded a very specific way and now

00:19:19   there's you know like more true sound sounding beats yeah I mean like as you

00:19:24   say that is definitely sound people like and I mean I had a pair of Beats headphones

00:19:28   and I liked the bass-y sound personally like I don't consider myself like a

00:19:31   headphone connoisseur but like what I've found over time from the youtubers that

00:19:37   I watch is that they all think that Beats are getting better and I think

00:19:40   what it means is they're just neutralizing that sound turning down the

00:19:44   bass yeah but you know I think ultimately like the Beats brand was

00:19:49   always a weird fit for Apple marketing wise the Beats brand has kind of

00:19:53   continued to do its own thing quite a lot yeah and that you know and that's

00:19:58   fine but if they don't need to keep it going to have a successful headphone business I

00:20:04   don't know why you would do it.

00:20:05   If someone just walks into a Best Buy to buy a pair of headphones like do they even know

00:20:09   Beats is owned by Apple?

00:20:11   Absolutely not.

00:20:12   Yeah a lot of consumers have no idea.

00:20:14   Because Apple have been pretty fair right in the sense that they didn't with most of

00:20:19   the existing Beats lines they didn't really like make them Apple products.

00:20:24   over time have started to do that right with like the newer ones that used

00:20:28   Apple's chips in them right and like but they still work fine same as AirPods

00:20:33   with Android devices so. One other thing I noticed in this sort of announcement

00:20:38   from Apple is that Apple Music has its own boilerplate press release copy which

00:20:45   only I care about because I have this blog post I've updated now for six years

00:20:48   anytime Apple changes this you know is it the bit at the bottom right like we

00:20:52   made the Mac and the iPad's really cool and we want to make the world a better

00:20:55   place you know that sort of text and Apple Music has its own I thought that

00:20:59   was interesting a bunch of people sent it to me so and it's um it's got the

00:21:03   iPod in it twice actually. Do they still don't sell iPhones anymore right they're

00:21:08   all gone. iPod touch is still. Touch. Oh the iPod touch. Music. iPod touch. There it is.

00:21:15   $199. Yeah I've got one I've got one of the current ones. I wouldn't you know I

00:21:21   I would have expected that.

00:21:22   Yeah, well, it's our it's our playlist

00:21:25   iPod when we do live shows.

00:21:27   And I thought we're going to do a lot of live shows in 2020.

00:21:29   Better make sure I have an iPod touch that can do it.

00:21:31   I think it's gathering dust.

00:21:33   Yep. This episode of Connected is brought to you by Pingdom.

00:21:38   Myke, do you have a website?

00:21:40   What? Yeah. Cool.

00:21:42   That website probably has a bunch of stuff on it, right?

00:21:44   Like people clicking play on MP3s and clicking links to email us.

00:21:49   All that stuff. Important stuff.

00:21:50   We we want those critical website transactions to work.

00:21:54   We don't want them to fail,

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00:22:52   - Beta 5 came out of iOS 14.

00:22:58   There's a few changes.

00:22:59   I mean, honestly, a couple of things surprising to me

00:23:03   considering where we are in the beta cycle.

00:23:05   The biggest one is the date picker.

00:23:07   They've made quite a serious revision,

00:23:09   I think, to the date picker.

00:23:11   So if you remember, the old date picker, time picker,

00:23:14   would be like this slot machine wheel roll around.

00:23:18   One of the old vestiges of iOS design that stuck around for a long time, and it's kind

00:23:24   of one of those things that until you think about it, you forget.

00:23:28   You know, it's like, "Oh yeah, that doesn't fit anymore."

00:23:32   Like visually, it doesn't really fit with what the rest of iOS is doing.

00:23:37   So they changed it to what I think is a vastly superior date/time picker, where it's a calendar

00:23:43   and you can type in the time.

00:23:45   But understandably some people don't want to type in the time all the time.

00:23:49   And I've had it as well where it's like I only want to move this by an hour based on

00:23:52   the default and I have to type it all in again.

00:23:54   What I've added is kind of an interesting feature where now you have the little time

00:24:01   there in the box and it looks like you can type it in, which you can, but you can also

00:24:05   swipe up and down on it to adjust by hour or minute.

00:24:09   So it's basically doing what the old roller, rolling wheel style would do, but just on

00:24:15   text.

00:24:16   I've seen a lot of people say it's undiscoverable and I understand that, but you know, I think

00:24:22   it's fine because it's something that I would use every now and then, but I do think that

00:24:26   really just typing in the time that you're wanting is a better and faster way of getting

00:24:32   things done with more precision.

00:24:34   Yeah I like it they've...

00:24:35   But I'm surprised to see that.

00:24:36   I'm surprised to see them make a change like this, this light.

00:24:39   Me too.

00:24:40   I was really surprised to see it, but it means they're still listening to feedback.

00:24:44   And honestly, I like the addition of it back because I like the swipey thing in some instances.

00:24:52   If you're just one or two days off, like in the calendar, the swipey thing's really fast.

00:24:57   And if I'm way off, then I get to use the keyboard.

00:25:00   So I think having them both is a good move.

00:25:03   Yeah.

00:25:04   Lots of bugs that I was having seemed to have been resolved

00:25:08   My camera can now take pictures again without refreshing a billion times. That's really good

00:25:15   That's good. And one thing that I was having I've seen lots of people have different keyboard issues

00:25:19   so like I have some shortcuts that I run say from the the today view right and

00:25:24   They require text entry. So I was having this thing where I start typing the keyboard would go away

00:25:30   Yeah, and I'd have to select the text cut the text cancel the shortcut run the shortcut again paste the text finish

00:25:37   What I was writing in that seems to have been fixed to which is great

00:25:40   So far, I mean this has only been out for a day

00:25:43   But this beta is already a billion times better than pay for because that that it got rough

00:25:49   I was having that keyboard issue in the share sheet

00:25:51   So I go to share a tweet and I want to text

00:25:54   You know kind of like a comment about it and the keyboard would disappear after like 10 keystrokes

00:25:58   And so I sent a bunch of texts that were like stopped halfway through the word and then just picked it up where it left off

00:26:04   so yeah that they've

00:26:06   They've obviously broken some things and now it's better. So so far beta 5 feels great

00:26:11   I mean, I've been on the beta train for a while on my phone and

00:26:14   So far this feels honestly like the best build which is what you would hope as we get closer to

00:26:21   Whenever this thing comes out. Well, I mean closer, but we don't know how close there's another

00:26:27   widget added an Apple widget. It's an Apple news widget, but this one's really weird. It is a custom size

00:26:33   So it's larger than any other widget. It is a size that nobody else can or does use

00:26:39   And it only shows in the old widgets area in the today view. It can't be placed on the home screen

00:26:45   Which is very strange

00:26:48   yeah, I'm

00:26:50   Putting it on on my phone now and it's massive. It's massive. Yeah

00:26:56   Well basically you know what I think this is? It's just Apple replacing the old widget.

00:27:03   But they want it to be in the new widget view and not relegated to the old widgets that

00:27:09   live down below. You know like the ones that have been deprecated basically. I don't know

00:27:16   why they couldn't have just put this in the large style. I don't know why they had to

00:27:20   create a completely unique size of widget but there you go.

00:27:25   I saw you saying something today, I think it was in Slack, which I liked the thought

00:27:30   of, which was maybe at some point in the future having an even smaller widget.

00:27:34   Yeah, because right now you have small, medium, and large, and you can have two small ones

00:27:40   side by side, and I think they take up the vertical space of roughly two app icons.

00:27:47   So the small widget size takes up roughly the space of four app icons on your home screen.

00:27:52   I think that's just too big for a lot of stuff.

00:27:55   If I've got a widget that just shows sunrise or sunset or just shows me the temperature,

00:27:59   it'd be nice to have a compact one that I think is one tall but two wide so you could

00:28:06   have some text or maybe even that scrolling text or something.

00:28:09   I would really like that compact size.

00:28:12   You could get a nice stock ticker in there for all of your stocks.

00:28:14   That's right.

00:28:15   Apple is worth $2 trillion a day so I could keep up with that.

00:28:20   I would just like to see that because on my today view, you know, I'm trying some widgets

00:28:25   out from various developers and like this list is getting really long, even with a bunch

00:28:30   of small ones.

00:28:31   Yeah, I don't really like the small widget that much.

00:28:35   The widgets that I've been using, I tend to use the medium one, but maybe I just haven't

00:28:38   had a lot of like really good examples of it for now.

00:28:43   The shortcuts one is the funniest one to me.

00:28:46   The small shortcuts one, which is just one shortcut.

00:28:48   Yeah, the most important shortcut.

00:28:50   You know, it's like here's one shortcut.

00:28:52   It takes four app icons.

00:28:55   Go wild.

00:28:56   Like you'd be better off just using like the medium one and taking up more space but fitting

00:29:01   more shortcuts in there.

00:29:02   Like it's a very strange one for me personally.

00:29:06   I am wondering now if I'm getting towards the time to put this on the 12.9 iPad Pro.

00:29:15   my machine still on 13. Kind of around this time, beta 5, beta 6, that's when I would

00:29:22   go all in and I'm thinking now might be getting to the time. You know, I have it on my 11

00:29:28   which I use quite a lot and I have it on my iPhone so I'm thinking it might be time now.

00:29:33   Because I'm realizing there are like things I'm getting used to and it's then becoming

00:29:38   frustrating to not have access to those. Like a lot of the new, the compact UI shortcut

00:29:43   stuff and getting really used to that and like it a lot.

00:29:47   Especially for some of the shortcuts that I'm using to like, you know, like if you're

00:29:50   entering text or something into a shortcut, it's really nice to just do it without having

00:29:54   to open the shortcuts app.

00:29:57   So you know, the stuff that I'm getting really getting used to that I think I would like

00:30:01   to be able to have more access to, but I still remain like excited about the shipping version

00:30:08   of iOS.

00:30:09   It's still features that I really want to try like the AirPods stuff

00:30:12   You know the fast switching and the spatial audio and stuff like that like I'm really excited about trying those features out

00:30:20   So there's still stuff there that I that I wanna that I want to try out

00:30:24   So we'll see you have a note in here. That is very concerning. Yeah

00:30:28   So I don't have a case on my iPhone right? Yeah boy, so I was using a

00:30:35   Pop socket auto box case

00:30:38   which I liked quite a lot, it was for my iPhone, it was the one that Apple sells

00:30:45   directly I think it was called Figura Pop and it had like a pop socket mount

00:30:53   built into the case so you could swap out your pop socket. Over time the case

00:30:58   started to like warp and was becoming like loose not so much that it was an

00:31:05   issue but I could see that like it wasn't completely conformed to the phone

00:31:10   anymore around the edges right and like if I looked at the back where the camera

00:31:15   was the top left hand corner gave it was like had a gap right like it wasn't

00:31:20   flush to the camera anymore like it started to warp yeah your phone would

00:31:24   just like shimmy out of that yeah maybe it would rattle around or like you could

00:31:29   squeeze it I don't know it wasn't just not right like it wasn't right it wasn't

00:31:33   great. You know, but it was fine. But then I kind of got frustrated with it and I

00:31:40   was popping it in and out and then you know when like I've done this with Apple

00:31:45   Silicon cases before the Apple one or like you can get this with other stuff.

00:31:49   It's something like it starts to break or starts to like say like the corner of

00:31:54   something comes up and you just start kind of like picking at it a little bit

00:31:57   and then two hours later you've peeled something completely off. You know what

00:32:02   I'm saying like a sticker starts to come up from a piece of technology and then you can't help but pull the sticker off

00:32:09   Basically did this with my case where I ended up just destroying it

00:32:13   Anyway, so that case is gone. So I am now without a case on my 11 Pro Max

00:32:20   I have a pop socket stuck to the back of it. It feels so good. I love it. It feels so good

00:32:25   It feels really thin

00:32:27   I like the texture of the glass. I

00:32:31   I like the texture of the rails that go around the phone.

00:32:37   It makes my phone feel a little bit more futuristic and I have the green one and I like to look

00:32:42   at it.

00:32:43   I am terrified I'm going to break it.

00:32:47   But I figure...

00:32:48   That's the phone I bought you last year for the Podcastathon.

00:32:50   You say it like, "I paid for it, but you arranged it."

00:32:55   I mean the company paid for it, so...

00:32:57   That means I paid for it.

00:32:59   Wow.

00:33:00   Did you get one?

00:33:01   Right, so that's half and half I paid for it.

00:33:03   Right? Like, you know, alright, I paid for half of mine and half of yours.

00:33:07   Yours is the max. You got a better deal than I did.

00:33:09   Yours is more expensive.

00:33:11   You could have done whatever you wanted. You were the one procuring these devices.

00:33:14   That's right.

00:33:15   But anyway, so I, it feels very dangerous to have a phone without a case on it.

00:33:21   But there was also this part of me that was thinking, the iPhone 12 is rumored to have

00:33:27   this like really cool new design with flat sides and all that kind of stuff it

00:33:31   feels like that phone shouldn't have a case on it maybe. I choose to believe

00:33:36   until I'm proven otherwise that the iPhone 12 is like a modern take on the

00:33:40   iPhone 4 like sign me up for that because that phone still feels awesome

00:33:45   in the hand. So I'm going I'm gonna plan on having no case on this phone now for

00:33:53   as long as it's in my possession and I will plan to not get a case from will not

00:34:00   use a case on my new phone I will buy one depending on what's available just

00:34:05   so I have one in case I change my mind right because I don't want to be like oh

00:34:08   no this phone definitely needs a case and then all the cases like six weeks

00:34:12   back ordered at that point yeah but you know I was also thinking you know I was

00:34:17   in the back of a taxi yesterday and I was thinking to myself I don't know why

00:34:20   I was thinking this, do I still want a phone as big as this one?

00:34:23   I feel like I'm going through a lot of changes, you know, but like just

00:34:27   considering there's going to be so many options in phone size this year,

00:34:31   I'm basically not necessarily signing myself up to getting the biggest phone.

00:34:36   Right.

00:34:37   Um, so I, I basically just like, I want to wait and see what Apple has

00:34:43   available before just blindly saying, I'm going to go for the Pro Max.

00:34:49   Like, probably it will be what I end up going for, but I just want to say that the jury

00:34:55   is out on that one.

00:34:57   Because I was remembering, like, what made me think about the iPhone X.

00:35:02   It wasn't the biggest phone.

00:35:04   It was the only phone that we had that was available to us, right?

00:35:07   Like, it wasn't the biggest.

00:35:08   Right, the 8 Plus was a little bit bigger, but it was the only Face ID phone.

00:35:13   Yeah, I don't remember how the screen size thing ended up working out, but nevertheless,

00:35:18   I was fine with that so I don't know like to be honest like I feel like I'm

00:35:23   probably will never be able to let go of what do we call it like Pro Club Max

00:35:30   Max the Pro Max gang gang plus Club but I'm basically just allowing for myself

00:35:39   to rethink that a little bit yeah the the standard size Pro is what I've had

00:35:45   you know I tried the 10s max and it wasn't for me and it went to a family

00:35:48   member but I I like the iPhone 10 size and it seems like everything is gonna

00:35:53   get bigger next time around if those rumors are true so I think that big phone

00:35:57   for in the 12 like the 12 Pro Plus Max that thing is gonna be potentially

00:36:03   enormous and I think it I think a lot of people who like the max or even the plus

00:36:08   size may find that the new big phone is a little beyond their reach so to speak

00:36:15   Mm-hmm. Get it? Good pun. Yeah, it's good. Yeah, it's good. Yeah, no, it's good. I like that.

00:36:19   It's better when you draw a lot of attention to it after the fact, I've learned.

00:36:21   Yeah, especially when you say so to speak. Get it, get it. No pun intended. Waka waka. That kind of stuff.

00:36:27   Waka!


00:36:28   (bell dings)

00:36:31   - The question is though, if you carry it caseless,

00:36:35   what happens if you break it?

00:36:36   'Cause that's a bummer.

00:36:38   - Well, I've been thinking about this, right?

00:36:40   So like, I definitely could break my phone.

00:36:42   It feels like it's really difficult right now

00:36:44   to get a phone replaced.

00:36:45   I don't know, like I had my first AppleCare experience

00:36:47   recently when I had one of my AirPods replaced

00:36:50   and that was fine.

00:36:51   If Apple would do that for a phone,

00:36:53   which is basically, give us your card.

00:36:55   If you don't send us the AirPod back,

00:36:57   we're gonna charge you.

00:36:58   Otherwise, here's the airport in a box, put it broke one in a mail it to us

00:37:02   like because I have Apple care plus.

00:37:04   So you know like I have to pay I don't know what is it like 50 bucks or

00:37:09   something and for accidental damage and also this kind of as part of me like

00:37:13   I've had a book a plus and so many phones never broken one you know maybe

00:37:17   if I break one I'll finally get my money's worth. I don't really know why

00:37:20   that thought processes I've been allowed to go through my brain, but I'm also

00:37:25   kind of testing it like this phone's on the way out right like it's got a couple

00:37:30   of months left can I go for a couple of months about breaking this phone I guess

00:37:35   we'll see like I have Apple care on it I can fix it we'll see I'm using the black

00:37:41   leather case on my phone 11 Pro you know the summer it's warm here I wear shorts

00:37:46   all summer and shorts and iPhones don't go well together they kind of slip out

00:37:50   of the pockets which is could be disastrous yeah that see it's shorts

00:37:54   time here too, right? Like, and I'm having that, I'm definitely having that fear, but

00:37:59   I always worry that I'm going to lose my phone anyway, so.

00:38:02   So yeah, I think you should try going caseless and you know, maybe days you go to the studio

00:38:07   or you know, you can go in and out, right? It's not a one-time decision. So you do have

00:38:13   that flexibility if you feel like, "Hey, I'm going to go somewhere. I need the case." Like

00:38:17   in cooler months when I'm wearing jeans, I generally go caseless, but then if I'm going

00:38:22   to work in the yard or go to a football game or like be out and about somewhere

00:38:26   I generally will pop it in the case just for that extra protection because the

00:38:29   back is glass and it's expensive to fix even with AppleCare+

00:38:34   It's like I know there's a lot of like logic problems in the things that I'm saying

00:38:37   I'm gonna say I'm one now two and it's fine human beings are flawed I kind of

00:38:43   feel like I don't want to buy a case now like it's too soon to replacing my phone

00:38:48   right in like the next three months that I want to buy a new case like there's a

00:38:52   company called case defy and they have the like an official Pokemon license you

00:38:56   remember Pokemon right and they have a bunch of cool Pokemon cases out right

00:38:59   now and there's kind of as part of me it's like why would you release a new

00:39:02   case line now but but the other thing is I'd as much as I might like them I don't

00:39:07   want to buy one because I'm gonna be upgrading my phone in a couple of months

00:39:12   and they probably won't fit anymore and it's like this is the same reason why I

00:39:16   I don't want to buy a new case in general right now because I'm gonna be changing the phone over soon

00:39:21   So well, good luck. I

00:39:23   Guess if I break my phone, I'll let you know. Okay. Yeah, please do because I've never broken fun

00:39:31   I don't know what it's like. Yeah be good for you to get that experience. Uh-huh. Yeah

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00:41:01   boy

00:41:04   Steve and I have an epic story for you Oh

00:41:09   You're very bell heavy today. I am very bell heavy

00:41:11   I kind of rearranged my space here like right under my monitor and stuff and the bell is way easier to reach now

00:41:17   That's I'm really pretty maybe I should move it further away. So I don't want to

00:41:23   Rehash all of the things I've already said on

00:41:26   Upgrade this week episode 311 neither

00:41:30   Do I really feel like at this point we need to tell the story of what's going on with Apple and epic?

00:41:36   I will also put a link in the show notes to a kind of like a history of what happened,

00:41:43   what has been happening with Apple and Fortnite and Epic and all that kind of stuff.

00:41:50   I wanted to get your opinion on this because you've been pretty silent in at least our

00:41:58   group threads about your opinions on what's going on with Apple and Epic.

00:42:03   And plus there's some other stuff that's been happening over the last couple of days that

00:42:09   could be pretty interesting to dig into.

00:42:11   So I guess on a very high level, do you find yourself more sympathetic towards one company's

00:42:21   argument than the other?

00:42:23   I feel like they both have things about the arguments that are good.

00:42:28   So on epic side, I do think that apples some of apples policies around the App Store are

00:42:34   outdated.

00:42:36   I think that their 30% cut is too high.

00:42:39   I think that there is room for third party, either third party payment processing in apps.

00:42:47   And I think Apple should have a say on what that is.

00:42:49   So okay, you have to use Apple Pay, or PayPal or like these, these known entities, you can

00:42:56   just have a credit card form. And I think that Epic is as clearly orchestrated this to

00:43:02   to move into this right as antitrust stuff is heating up in the US. And if if we see a

00:43:09   government change in the fall, that could be a real issue for these big tech companies. So like,

00:43:16   Epic, I think is making a lot of good points. I think they're making them in a smart way.

00:43:21   And I think that the way that Apple has responded just makes Epic look better.

00:43:27   Like, we're gonna talk about their latest response, but they have...

00:43:31   Like, Apple's saying the parts out loud, they're not supposed to say out loud, I feel like.

00:43:36   And that's a bad look.

00:43:39   They've been doing that for the last two months.

00:43:40   Yep.

00:43:40   Right.

00:43:41   Yeah, they did it with "Hey." Right?

00:43:43   It was like, "Oh, well, your other app, which we're totally not threatening here,

00:43:47   has never made us any money, you know, that's not spectacular. So on the whole, I think that Epic

00:43:55   has the upper hand here. I think from the Apple perspective, I think that they feel tricked that

00:44:03   this happened in and out because they did it without an update. I think that they feel like

00:44:08   they have their back against a wall that, and Apple doesn't like operating that way, right?

00:44:15   Apple likes controlling the narrative and Epic is in the driver's seat for all of this, right?

00:44:19   It's all about Apple's response to Epic and Apple doesn't like that.

00:44:22   Yeah, because even though the most recent development of Apple saying,

00:44:27   "We're going to kick Epic out of the store by the end of August if they don't do something,"

00:44:31   whilst that could be seen as Apple taking an element of control back,

00:44:38   if they do do that, if Epic play chicken, Apple looks bad in the public, not Epic.

00:44:44   because a wide scale people don't care about Apple's rules.

00:44:51   No, the story will be Apple removed Fortnite from the store.

00:44:56   Yeah, because they wanted all of Epic's money, which is not completely false.

00:45:04   It's not false at all.

00:45:05   It's what they want.

00:45:07   They also want Epic to play by the rules, the rules that Apple have set.

00:45:10   We can maybe get into the rules themselves, but Epic have broken the rules, right?

00:45:14   I would like to assume that Epic knew this was a possibility, but I still think it's

00:45:21   going to be interesting.

00:45:22   I don't know if it's obvious at this point that Epic will update Fortnite to remove their

00:45:32   own purchasing system to make sure that Apple doesn't kick them out.

00:45:37   I don't know about that yet.

00:45:39   I mean, there is an asterisk about the unreal engine, which we can get into if you want

00:45:43   to.

00:45:44   But I don't know if it's clear cut that they're going to do that.

00:45:49   Yeah, I think you're, I think you're right about that.

00:45:53   And Apple has as much as epic has to lose here, which again, I want to talk about the

00:45:58   unreal engine in a second epic has a lot to lose here.

00:46:01   But Apple has way more because Apple has way more attention on it.

00:46:06   the story will be

00:46:08   You can't play for tonight on the iPhone because Apple removed them

00:46:11   from the store right and that's as far as it'll go and

00:46:15   And on top of that you have the antitrust stuff and Apple

00:46:20   Removing fortnight from the store even if fortnight did break Apple's rules, which they did clearly and

00:46:27   Boldly Apple doesn't need another hit on its record when it comes to App Store

00:46:34   What some would say our app store abuses I think at this point it's really just how bad is Apple gonna lose here

00:46:42   Mm-hmm. I don't think there's a win condition for them

00:46:45   because if epic do this like if they

00:46:49   Roll over accept the rules take their lick right and update the application

00:46:55   So they don't get their developer thing removed and then the app will be reinstated into the store if they do this

00:47:02   The lawsuit isn't gonna go away and I think gives epic more ammunition

00:47:07   I think it does too. I think that there is an argument here, which is like oh

00:47:11   And you know like this this big company that we're saying is monopolistic. They forced us to

00:47:18   Remove something. Otherwise, they were going to kick us out and because it's like yes, they broke the rules

00:47:24   But there is an argument as to whether the rules are fair in the first place that that needs to and will be had

00:47:31   Like you know it. This is the thing of like yeah, they accepted the rules

00:47:34   but

00:47:37   Should the rules be written the way that they're written?

00:47:39   Right like I think it's a separate argument to be made here

00:47:44   And that is like that's the argument that epic war make of like well

00:47:49   We had to accept the rules, but we got to the point where we felt like the rules weren't fair enough

00:47:52   So we decided we'd we'd break them. I don't know how that all plays out legally. I'm not smart enough to know that yeah

00:47:59   Yeah, but from a publicity standpoint, I don't think it's gonna it's gonna be very good cuz like, you know, look at the moment

00:48:06   Epic are able to say hey fortnight players were saving you money, right?

00:48:11   Yeah

00:48:11   And I heard I think on dithering that epic said at some point that because that that updates still in the store

00:48:17   Or not in the store. It's still in people's people's devices

00:48:21   And so if you had fortnight download already

00:48:23   You can just pay them directly and that it was like a 50/50 split of people doing it directly versus going through Apple

00:48:29   I just I I can't help but think that what you said about

00:48:33   The rules are now unfair like that is the heart of it for me. These rules may have made sense 12 years ago

00:48:41   But they don't all make sense now and things like not being able to buy

00:48:46   Books in the Kindle app and sign up in Netflix sign up and hey pay them directly all this stuff

00:48:53   it wasn't really wasn't a

00:48:57   It really wasn't a factor when the App Store launched.

00:49:00   And that purchase wasn't even in the first version

00:49:02   of the App Store.

00:49:03   Remember it came on a couple of years later.

00:49:05   And because of that, and things like subscriptions

00:49:08   and these other things, the App Store

00:49:10   has fundamentally changed.

00:49:12   The way that consumers and developers interact,

00:49:15   the way that things are bought and sold,

00:49:17   that has all fundamentally changed in the last 12 years,

00:49:20   and Apple's rules haven't kept up.

00:49:22   And I think it is definitely time for them

00:49:25   to address a lot of those things.

00:49:27   And I think Epic is a big enough,

00:49:30   like no offense to Hay and Basecamp,

00:49:32   like I think they're great,

00:49:34   but they're not big enough to force this

00:49:36   the way that Epic is.

00:49:38   Epic is a big enough combatant in this lawsuit

00:49:43   that this is going to be the thing

00:49:45   that I think forces these changes.

00:49:48   - You know, there's been a lot of people

00:49:49   who said this isn't new,

00:49:50   but I think it's worth pointing out.

00:49:51   Like Epic might be the only company that can do this

00:49:56   because they're big, they have a lot of power

00:49:59   and they're a private company.

00:50:01   Now like Netflix can't do this

00:50:03   because their shareholders will go bananas, right?

00:50:07   Because Epic is gambling a lot here.

00:50:12   And again, like they're not doing it

00:50:15   for the goodness of everyone.

00:50:17   They're doing it because they believe

00:50:19   that Apple shouldn't be taking a slice of their business,

00:50:23   which I also, to a level, believe as well.

00:50:27   But there is a possibility that if Epic are able

00:50:31   to force Apple to make changes,

00:50:33   that there could be wider benefits to other developers.

00:50:38   There could also be disadvantages.

00:50:40   Like, we don't know, but I do think that the situation

00:50:44   that we are in right now is deserving of change.

00:50:48   And like the other thing about like the rules, right, because we keep talking about the rules.

00:50:52   One of my biggest issues is that the rules are not equally applied.

00:50:58   Right?

00:50:59   There are exceptions to the rules.

00:51:01   Despite what Tim Cook told Congress, that we treat all people the same.

00:51:06   And that's my issue.

00:51:07   It's like, you can have rules, and you can have exceptions to rules.

00:51:11   But don't hide them.

00:51:13   Don't pretend that they don't exist.

00:51:14   And I would like to read Apple's statement that they gave about Epic, because I want

00:51:20   to pick a couple of pieces apart for this, because I think it's important.

00:51:25   The App Store is designed to be a safe and trusted place for users and a great business

00:51:29   opportunity for all developers.

00:51:31   All right, fine.

00:51:32   I'll go along with that.

00:51:33   That's true.

00:51:34   I agree with that.

00:51:35   Sure.

00:51:36   Yeah.

00:51:37   Epic has been one of the most successful developers on the App Store, growing into a multi-billion

00:51:41   dollar business that reaches millions of iOS customers around the world. Get out of town.

00:51:46   I hate this so much because they are insinuating that Epic's success came from them. And that

00:51:54   is absolutely, categorically not true. Right? Like Apple keep doing this and they've done

00:52:01   it again. They've done a different way of saying it, right? Of trying to say that they

00:52:07   They are for some reason successful because Apple allowed them to be on the platform when

00:52:11   that is absolutely not true.

00:52:16   Fortnite was the biggest game in the world before there was an iOS version of it.

00:52:22   Before Fortnite, Epic has been around forever being a massively successful company before

00:52:30   the App Store, before even the idea of the App Store.

00:52:35   And Apple is more successful because of companies like Epic, not the other way around.

00:52:43   The iPhone is what it is because of apps.

00:52:47   There is no argument about this.

00:52:51   The iPhone is a success to the level that it is because of developers making apps for

00:52:56   the platform.

00:52:58   That's what made that piece of technology so incredible.

00:53:02   There were smartphones before the iPhone.

00:53:04   But what made the iPhone what it was is the App Store.

00:53:06   Apple had a great idea.

00:53:09   Apple made the right decision to put apps on the App Store.

00:53:13   I think it's pretty clear at this point.

00:53:15   Like they didn't really want to do it, but they did it.

00:53:17   They made the right decision.

00:53:18   They put apps on the App Store.

00:53:20   And they helped a lot of developers along the way.

00:53:23   But we cannot continue to assume that large companies are only successful because of Apple.

00:53:31   They keep saying this like "oh, Basecamp had a successful business, you know, like they've

00:53:38   been freeloading on us for years" is basically what they're saying.

00:53:42   And it's like all this stuff is just...

00:53:44   Anyway, we very much want to keep the company as part of the Apple developer program and

00:53:49   their apps on the store.

00:53:50   Yes, I'm sure you do.

00:53:52   The problem Epic has created for itself is one that can be easily remedied if they submit

00:53:57   an app of that app and an update of that app that reverts it to comply with the

00:54:01   guidelines they agreed to and which apply to all developers. All right. Okay.

00:54:05   Yes. Epic created this problem for themselves provided there were no

00:54:13   conversations that came before it, which I am convinced that there are, right?

00:54:17   Like I'm sure that Epic and Apple have been trying to come to an agreement that

00:54:22   Epic is comfortable with for a while. And that's why this happened. But yes,

00:54:27   So Epic did do this for themselves because they did decide to kick up a stink, right?

00:54:32   But then we have this other part of they agreed to the guidelines.

00:54:35   Yeah, they did.

00:54:36   They apply to all developers.

00:54:37   Yeah, they do.

00:54:39   But then we have this next point.

00:54:40   We won't make an exception for Epic because we don't think it's right to put their business

00:54:45   interests ahead of the guidelines that protect our customers.

00:54:48   I want to reread this in the way that I think it should actually be said.

00:54:53   We won't make an exception for Epic because we don't think it's right to put their business

00:54:58   interests ahead of the guidelines that protect our customers.

00:55:02   Because that's not completely true where there is a quid pro quo for Apple.

00:55:07   They will make an exception for Amazon because their business interests and Apple's business

00:55:14   interests make sense.

00:55:16   They will make an exception for Netflix because it makes sense.

00:55:20   Like they apparently was a cut deal for Netflix.

00:55:24   And then also, you know, we saw this with Netflix and Hey, right?

00:55:27   Like Netflix could do things that Hey couldn't go, couldn't do.

00:55:30   And like, I just can't stand this anymore.

00:55:34   Right. That like Apple feel like they need to control the businesses of every

00:55:40   company in the App Store.

00:55:41   I mean, it reminds me of someone who, you know, built an airport or built some

00:55:47   some sort of waterway, right, and trying to take a tax on every boat or plane

00:55:52   that goes through it. It just doesn't work in the 21st century. And something

00:55:57   you said a second ago really caught my interest is that the iPhone is its apps.

00:56:01   Right, like when we talk about using an Android phone or using a PC or something,

00:56:06   what always brings me back is the apps that I'm used to and the workflows that

00:56:12   I want to use and Apple has a very rich ecosystem of these applications on the iPhone and beyond

00:56:18   and in some ways that's despite the rules that they have in place that are very old

00:56:25   and creaky in places.

00:56:27   If these big companies continue to struggle with Apple's rules it hurts their devices,

00:56:33   it hurts their users and you know getting rid of a weird email app is not that big of

00:56:39   a deal. It's a big deal if you're, you know, base camp, but in the world, not that big

00:56:44   of a deal. Epic's a bigger deal. But if Netflix or Facebook or Amazon Prime Video is one of

00:56:51   these big apps really were to go up against Apple with this, then I think that line of

00:56:56   "Well, we should buy the same" definitely comes to light as being false because they

00:57:00   would bend for those other apps.

00:57:02   There was a report from The Information that Epic is apparently trying to get other companies

00:57:06   to come on board with this. I don't think they're going to be incredibly successful.

00:57:09   Yeah, because they're afraid of Apple. Yeah, I mean, so there has been an increase

00:57:14   in rhetoric from a lot of companies about, like, supporting Epic. Like, apparently that

00:57:19   came from this. Facebook was working on a project, like this events project, right,

00:57:25   where you could pay, like, people that were putting on digital events inside of Facebook.

00:57:33   Facebook brought this forward because of this so they were planning to launch

00:57:37   this and they launched it early because they want because and then part of their

00:57:40   press release about this is that oh you can do this on the App Store but Apple's

00:57:44   gonna take 30% of the money right so like there is an increase in like

00:57:51   companies trying to push this which again I will say is like Apple you got

00:57:56   change because these companies are gonna keep pushing on you and it'll be so much

00:58:04   better for you if you find a way to make this work before you are forced to.

00:58:09   Because if you are forced to, it's gonna be real bad for you.

00:58:14   Yeah I mean having Congress or the EU or some other government force this upon

00:58:22   them it will be harsher. It will be it will include things they don't want to

00:58:28   do and if Apple takes the first steps here then they can control at least part

00:58:34   of that right and maybe they do enough to placate those antitrust people you

00:58:41   know looking looking at them so yeah they've got to give on some of these

00:58:45   things I think they've got to give on the 30% I think they need to be building

00:58:50   in systems that allow for purchases outside of the old iTunes payment system.

00:59:00   If you offer Apple Pay, they still get a small cut, right?

00:59:02   And people would use it.

00:59:04   If they offered...

00:59:05   Again, Apple needs some way to make sure that's secure for their users, because one nice thing

00:59:11   is you can hand somebody an iPhone or iPad and it's generally, as long as they stay in

00:59:15   apps, less sketchy than going out to the web.

00:59:18   Let me ask though, like, when was the last time you paid for something on the web and

00:59:24   that payment system was a scam?

00:59:26   Yeah, I mean, every time my debit card has been stolen the last 10 years, it's been at

00:59:31   physical retail stores.

00:59:33   Yeah, like, realistically, come on, come on, right?

00:59:39   And like, Apple could still approve the payment processor, you know?

00:59:45   Like one, two, three company is not going to create their own payment processing system.

00:59:51   You could still have the payment processing systems be approved, right?

00:59:57   Because how many are they realistically going to be?

01:00:01   They can allow this.

01:00:03   They can make a small list here and you can use this, this, and this, and you can have

01:00:08   a company like Stripe come in, right?

01:00:11   And they could create a payment processing system for all of the third party developers

01:00:15   to take advantage of if they wanted to.

01:00:17   And it's only Stripe that needs to be done, right?

01:00:20   It's like Karl's saying in the chatroom, PayPal, Apple Pay, Stripe, you could have Google Pay

01:00:24   in there.

01:00:25   Right.

01:00:26   And that's going to be enough for everyone.

01:00:28   At that point, developers get like, I don't know, 17% back or something.

01:00:35   And then it enables this.

01:00:37   All right, so if you are going to continue to use Apple systems, all right, Apple, will

01:00:41   you down for me lately?

01:00:42   Right?

01:00:43   make me choose, make me want to choose you. Why is your 30% worth it? They should be,

01:00:51   at this point, they should have to prove that that cut is worth it. Why? Right? Like, show

01:00:58   me, show me what you give me because I pay for your system, right? Like I pay to be a

01:01:03   developer. So that's one, right? Like I give value to your product by creating an app for

01:01:10   device why do you also want to get 30% could you not get 15% like what is the

01:01:16   30% given me I think that right now in 2020 they need to remake that case

01:01:23   because I don't think it exists the way it used to let's talk about unreal okay

01:01:29   yeah cuz that's that's the bigger almost the bigger topic so this is the game

01:01:34   engine built by epic they manage it which we should say is used for lots of

01:01:39   things not just games lots of different applications of all different types use

01:01:43   the Unreal Engine it really like goes out far and wide into different types of

01:01:50   entertainment products like it is a game engine yes but unreal can be used in a

01:01:56   lot of wonderful and weird ways if epics developer ID is pulled like Apple has

01:02:04   promised it would do on the 28th if Epic doesn't get in line with the Fortnite

01:02:11   app that is a big problem for those potentially a big problem for those

01:02:17   other applications I think part of this is a little unknown exactly how the

01:02:21   technical details would play out but at the very least it would make develop

01:02:27   other developers who work on top of unreal it's going to make their lives a

01:02:32   a lot harder. So there's a few things which could be problems here right so there can't be any new

01:02:41   versions of unreal which won't necessarily cause problems for existing applications that are using

01:02:47   it unless there's a bug in unreal for ios 14 right so if something's going wrong with unreal

01:02:55   and ios 14 which i don't know is the case that would be an issue right if they wanted to add

01:03:00   new features to Unreal or fix other bugs in Unreal, they can't do that. One of the

01:03:06   bigger potential problems is there would be no Unreal applications on Apple

01:03:10   Silicon because none of that work has been finalized, right? Like this is what

01:03:17   I'm seeing people say online, so let's do transfer status, Brandon says this,

01:03:21   and I agree with these people, like it makes sense to me, like these

01:03:25   processes have not been finalized yet. There's no like GM for Apple

01:03:31   Silicon stuff, there's no GM for Unreal running on Apple Silicon. So they cut this off, it

01:03:36   would mean that no apps could run Unreal. And like we're not talking everything

01:03:42   in the world here but we're talking a lot of developers that rely on it

01:03:46   and this is where you've got to start looking back at Epic and saying is this

01:03:52   responsible? Are you being a responsible platform holder of your own here? Because

01:04:02   people that have decided to use Unreal for whatever reason and are quote-unquote

01:04:09   paying for the privilege, you know, they are being dragged into this without any

01:04:16   say. If you are currently an app developer who uses Unreal, you've got to

01:04:24   be pretty nervous. Because it might not be today, it might not be August 28th

01:04:31   that's the problem. But for as long as Epic and Apple are going at it, you're

01:04:36   gonna be nervous about Unreal. And that is like, that feels like a mutually

01:04:43   assured destruction thing here because that's bad for both now because it's bad

01:04:49   for Apple because there are I mean it's it's a funny thing at this point but

01:04:54   like there are Apple arcade games that are made using unreal right now

01:04:59   ultimately I feel like that part like I see a lot of people talk about this it's

01:05:04   true like it would be awkward that was like collateral damage for Apple like

01:05:08   I'm sorry but like fortnight is more important to them than Apple arcade

01:05:12   monetarily outside of PR wise in the world right like they are willing to

01:05:18   stand their ground to make sure fortnight remains on the App Store more

01:05:21   than they are willing to lose the the game made using the Unreal Engine and

01:05:26   Apple arcade like these equations they don't balance unfortunately so like

01:05:34   there are other applications like not working that they somehow control it's

01:05:38   like collateral damage but this is this is like I kind of thought of this phrase

01:05:42   earlier like mutually sure destruction is like the Unreal Engine and Epic not

01:05:48   being on Apple's platforms is a problem for them it's also a massive problem for

01:05:51   Epic right more than fortnight being a problem because it's probably safe to

01:05:58   say that at this point epic are not onboarding as many users into fortnight

01:06:06   as they used to right it is most likely and I think already actually has seen

01:06:11   its peak. It's no longer I believe the most popular game in the world. For a while, if

01:06:17   not still, Minecraft came back and was the most popular. But it's a massive, massive

01:06:24   game. But now the business is in keeping people interested, getting people that have lapsed

01:06:31   to come back and getting them to keep giving you money for different in-game events and

01:06:35   stuff like that. So the idea of Fortnite not being available to download on the App Store,

01:06:41   not so much of a problem for them, especially if they can keep making more money out of

01:06:45   the people that are already in it, right? So like whatever. But the Unreal Engine, not

01:06:50   being able to work going forward in some ways, is more of a PR problem for Epic, again, because

01:06:58   now there could be game developers A, B and C could file a lawsuit with Epic for doing

01:07:05   all of this right and then from a PR perspective that starts to look bad so

01:07:11   at this point I can't really work out where we're gonna go because Epic has

01:07:16   filed an additional suit about this thing here and I don't know whether

01:07:23   they're gonna go to the line here with this and have Apple kick them out of the

01:07:28   store I can't I don't know I can't put my money down on this one like it kind

01:07:35   of feels like they would play chicken on this but I don't know if they're really

01:07:41   willing to go through with it or not. If the Unreal Engine was not impacted I

01:07:46   would say that they would go all the way right because it will look great for

01:07:51   them if Apple continue to put the screws in right and make it worse for people

01:07:58   that are playing Fortnite and iOS. The damage that they will cause to their

01:08:02   developer community could be too strong here. You've got to think that Epic would

01:08:09   have seen that Unreal could be caught up in this, right? Like if they didn't see that

01:08:13   coming I would be shocked because the rest of this seems pretty well thought

01:08:19   through. I mean yeah but I think that there might have been an element of

01:08:25   gutsiness to think they wouldn't do that to us. Maybe. I could see that because

01:08:30   Because when I saw that Apple is doing this I was like, "Ooh, I know that that's technically

01:08:37   what you can do, but I don't know if you should do that."

01:08:42   In the same way that if Apple said, and this, I don't know, I actually don't know what would

01:08:46   happen here, but if they said, "If you don't do this, we're going to remove Fortnite from

01:08:51   people's phones."

01:08:52   Because they can do that.

01:08:54   And it's a kind of a thing where it's like, "Yeah, I know Apple can do that, but I don't

01:08:57   know if I would do that."

01:08:59   That would be from the PR perspective. Not only did Apple kick him out of the store. They took it off my iPad

01:09:06   I don't think they want but like I don't know like what happens if they removed the developer license

01:09:12   Yeah, I don't know

01:09:13   But I don't know like and I have yet to be able to find like a definitive answer

01:09:18   To this like if Apple does kick like remove epics developer license

01:09:25   What happens to fortnight on people's phones?

01:09:28   I don't know the answer to this or like you know maybe maybe someone in the chat room

01:09:33   can try and give us something I can see there's lots of people typing right now in the discord

01:09:37   but like this is it feels like a like you know maybe maybe not but like the idea of

01:09:44   of them cutting off the app they are allowed to do that if they want to and you know like

01:09:52   I know that it is a security thing Apple could argue as they already are trying to argue

01:09:56   that that Epic's payment processing system is a security issue.

01:10:00   And it's like, yeah, it's like you have the ability to do it, but I don't know if you

01:10:03   would do it.

01:10:04   And this is how I feel about them removing Epic from the store.

01:10:07   It's like, I don't know if it's the right move, but I also don't think it's the right

01:10:16   move for Epic to go all the way on this.

01:10:20   I don't know.

01:10:21   I don't know.

01:10:23   We've got, we've got, what have we got?

01:10:24   A weakened change?

01:10:26   that's that's really why it's kind of hard to talk about because it's

01:10:29   There are so many so many variables, but I think at the end of the day

01:10:33   epic saw a moment in time where they could have great leverage to change Apple's policies and

01:10:40   so far Apple has

01:10:43   Mostly just dug the hole deeper for themselves

01:10:45   Carl's found a note on the

01:10:49   Apple developer renewal page your apps will still function for users who already installed or downloaded them

01:10:55   And you will still have access to App Store connect and free development resources

01:10:59   But like this is the thing that is if your membership expires

01:11:02   There may be a different case for if Apple forcibly removes you

01:11:06   Right, like that's the thing of like there are lots of things we can find and assume based on stuff that's out there

01:11:12   But what is the rules if Apple say bye-bye?

01:11:16   This is a so like this is a real mess, but I gotta say I love it. I love this story

01:11:22   This is a great story, right? Like

01:11:25   This has got all of the drama that we want out of tech story in it

01:11:31   we can talk about it for hours and it's genuinely interesting to talk about and

01:11:36   I feel like it's doing a really good job of summarizing

01:11:40   The main issue I have of Apple at the moment. Like I don't really have issues with their software

01:11:46   I don't really have issues with their hardware like everyone has their fiefdom, right?

01:11:51   that the thing that annoys them. The thing that annoys me with Apple is their business practices.

01:11:56   I don't like, and I've not liked this for a long time, that Apple believes that they can tell other

01:12:04   businesses how to run their business. I don't like that. I don't think it's fair. I don't think that

01:12:11   they are in the position to be able to do that. And I don't like that they say in public that they

01:12:20   apply things fairly when we know it's not true, we have evidence now to prove that that's

01:12:25   not true.

01:12:26   So I find all that stuff like really sneaky and I don't believe that they need to do it.

01:12:32   And you can come at me with services revenue and you can tell me until you're blue in the

01:12:37   face.

01:12:38   But like, so what?

01:12:40   Right?

01:12:41   Like services revenue is only important because it's the thing Apple chose to be important.

01:12:45   Yep.

01:12:46   Yeah, Wall Street value it because Tim said, look at it.

01:12:49   You know, like Jason made this point to me, I don't remember if it was in Upgrade Plus or not,

01:12:54   but wearables is actually growing more than services. But services is just the thing that

01:12:59   Apple has chosen to really like put their public image into at the moment. But they didn't have to

01:13:05   do this. Like they chose to do this. And so now, like if Apple wasn't doing this whole services

01:13:12   push, I would probably look at this a little bit differently. But they are choosing to muscle their

01:13:18   way into this business that other people are occupying in and they're using their platform

01:13:23   advantage for their benefit.

01:13:26   Even the move of calling App Store revenue services revenue, like that was the first

01:13:31   decision and all this stuff follows from that.

01:13:36   It didn't have to be that way, right?

01:13:38   But they wanted that number to be good because their hardware business is about as big as

01:13:43   it could be.

01:13:44   there's not that many more people to sell iPhones to and they saw this large group of

01:13:50   People who have their hardware in their pockets all the time saying we can get and extract more money from them and it's just

01:13:58   The whole thing is icky and but this really feels like okay Apple

01:14:03   You are not only trying to get more money out of me

01:14:05   But you are continuing to limit what other people can do on your platform in ways that don't make much sense anymore

01:14:13   You know, I am all for things like app review. I don't want a second app store

01:14:18   I don't want necessarily even want sideloading, but I want their policies to be more flexible for

01:14:22   other businesses to

01:14:25   Work and thrive on top of what Apple's built

01:14:29   These companies right like they're all finding their own ways to stop taking the in-app purchase

01:14:36   Right, whether they said like sign up on the web order. It's like if they're not gonna do it anyway

01:14:42   Just let me do it in the app. Yeah, because like what you are creating what you are forcing is a worse

01:14:49   user experience yes

01:14:51   Right, like that is what you're doing and Apple you are supposed to be the user experience company and

01:14:59   a big part of your business

01:15:02   Forcibly makes bad user experiences like can you reconcile this are you cool with this?

01:15:11   Because you shouldn't be

01:15:13   The story's not going away. That's for sure. No, and you know what? I'm pleased because it's interesting

01:15:19   It's a big this is a huge deal

01:15:21   this is the story of the year when it comes to Apple like without a doubt like and

01:15:26   and I want it to be finally the time that they make a change and I like

01:15:33   Apple I beg of you now like

01:15:35   Please do it before you're forced to

01:15:40   Do it before your public perception changes.

01:15:43   Do it before a government forces you and do it so you can save face.

01:15:49   Like save face.

01:15:52   Be the company we want you to be.

01:15:55   Make the change that is beneficial to me as a user and to your development community.

01:16:01   Like before this continues to spiral out of control and stop being this weird

01:16:08   Company that seems to believe that like your mere existence means other businesses can thrive

01:16:15   Because it's not that you're not that like

01:16:18   Netflix isn't a big company because they have an iPhone app

01:16:21   like

01:16:23   Amazon isn't a big company because you can buy products from the Amazon iPhone app, but you seem to think that that's

01:16:30   the case and I just I

01:16:33   Can't get my head around it

01:16:36   If you want to find our show notes this week, they're on the web at relay.fm/connected/308

01:16:43   While you're there, you can send us an email with feedback or follow up.

01:16:47   You can become a member to get a bunch of awesome annual specials as well as Connected Pro, the ad-free version of the show.

01:16:55   This is the fall. We are raising money for St. Jude.

01:17:00   stjude.org/relay. We'd love your support as we help celebrate National Childhood Cancer

01:17:06   Awareness Month and stay tuned for the second annual, second annual, Relay FM podcast-a-thon

01:17:13   for St. Jude on Friday, September 18th. I like to ask questions of Myke every time at

01:17:19   the end of the show. So Myke, what's another podcast you do?

01:17:23   I host many shows.

01:17:25   Such as?

01:17:26   Upgrade.

01:17:27   Good job. So you can find Myke on upgrade on Mondays here on relay FM. You can also

01:17:32   find Myke on Twitter as I M y ke Federico is off this week but you can find him on Twitter

01:17:38   as Viti VITI CCI and he is the editor in chief of Mac stories.net. You can find me online

01:17:45   as is mh and my writing over at 512 pixels.net. I'd like to thank our sponsors this week Pingdom

01:17:53   and Mack Weldon. Until next time, Myke, say goodbye. Bye-bye. Bye, y'all.