301: We Should Be Developers


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:09   Hello and welcome to Connected, episode 301.

00:00:13   I had an internal debate if I was going to say 301 or 301.

00:00:17   Do either of y'all have thoughts on that?

00:00:18   301, it sounds more professional.

00:00:21   I thought so too.

00:00:22   Yeah.

00:00:23   301 is a little casual.

00:00:25   Because you could mean like 3.01, right?

00:00:28   Like we could start numbering the show like developers number their releases now.

00:00:31   It looks like a like a web browser error, like three error,

00:00:36   three or one like, you know, disconnected or something.

00:00:39   When whatever podcast it was hit episode 404 for the first time,

00:00:43   I was very nervous that it was going to break our CMS. But it didn't.

00:00:47   Yeah, we just hit it for the pen addict a few weeks ago and I was terrified to

00:00:51   publish that episode.

00:00:52   Anyway, this is still the intro of a podcast.

00:00:55   Yes, so welcome to Connected episode 30.1.

00:00:58   My name is Stephen Hackett.

00:00:59   This episode is sponsored by our sponsors because they sponsor things Smile, Miro, and

00:01:05   Pingdom.

00:01:06   It's an odd episode, so Myke, you get to go first.

00:01:08   Hi Myke!

00:01:10   I would like to request that when you introduce me in the future that you introduce me as

00:01:17   His Excellency, the Royal Keynote Chairman.

00:01:19   What?!

00:01:20   I'm not gonna do that.

00:01:22   I have decided that my chairmanship is a Royal chairmanship, as you will see from the @keynotechairman

00:01:28   account which now features lots of crowns and decrees. And I would like to be known

00:01:33   as His Excellency, the Royal keynote chairman, Myke Hurley.

00:01:37   You don't have the lineage for a Royal chairmanship.

00:01:40   Sure I do.

00:01:41   No, it's not something that you can just come up and say.

00:01:44   You only got it because I had it. You were my son.

00:01:46   I have Divine Podcasts right. That's what got me here. And so that's what I want. That's

00:01:54   what I want.

00:01:55   He wins a single thing and look at what he's done to his head. Like, oh my god.

00:02:01   His Excellency, the Royal Keynote Chairman, Myke Hurley.

00:02:05   You know we're gonna call you this for the next 12 months, every single week.

00:02:10   I will be thrilled to be known as...

00:02:12   Steven, can you please redo the intro and actually call him? We're gonna put this in

00:02:17   the document so he's gonna be happy. I'll do it next time. We'll see. I'll just bring

00:02:23   it up. Okay. Hi Federico. Hey Steven, how are you? Hey. I'm a normal person so I don't

00:02:29   have any requests. I'm just happy to be here with you. And, what's his name? His Excellency

00:02:35   the Royal keynote chairman Myke Hurley. Yeah. It's an honor, sir. Thank you, thank you.

00:02:41   always nice to spend time with the subjects. Wow. It keeps me grounded, you know? Wow, wow, wow,

00:02:49   we appreciate it. Thank you so much for... You could lose this title anytime. They could have

00:02:54   another keynote at any moment. Just a heartbeat away from retaining my crown, which I lost in a

00:03:03   stupid coin flip. I'm retaining the crown. You would be regaining, I don't know, a presidency

00:03:10   or something. You don't have royalty there.

00:03:12   Oh, we could. We're sliding towards it. Okay!

00:03:16   Follow up! Federico, teach me everything you know about Xcode Preview.

00:03:21   This is fun because, if you recall, one of my passion picks from the previous round of predictions was...

00:03:28   No, it was your Ricky pick!

00:03:30   Yes, it was a Ricky pick, but it was made with passion, so it was a passion Ricky.

00:03:33   Right, right, right, right.

00:03:35   that Apple was going to introduce a new development tool for iPad that was not with Playgrounds.

00:03:41   And of course, that did not happen. However, it was recently revealed, we've seen in one

00:03:48   of the sessions and it was shared by Jordan Singer on Twitter, that Xcode 12, which is

00:03:54   the new version of Xcode for Mac OS, does come with a new utility app called Xcode Previews

00:04:01   that you can run on your iPhone, that you can run on your iPad, that allows you to have interactive

00:04:07   on-device previews of your SwiftUI views. So you can run these Xcode previews utility on your iPhone

00:04:15   and your iPad, you're going to have a real-time preview of SwiftUI, and you can, you know, it's

00:04:20   better than just having a simulator, you can actually do it on device. And there's an actual

00:04:24   icon called Xcode previews, it's a new feature of Xcode, so it is kind of close to having

00:04:31   a new development tool for iPad. Of course it does not qualify for my Ricky

00:04:37   pic because it does not let you write code on device. This is a preview

00:04:43   utility. So it is a developer tool but it does not let you write your

00:04:48   own code and test your own code on device. It's an Xcode extension

00:04:53   essentially that lets you preview your code but that code still needs to be

00:04:58   written on a Mac. So, close, but not what I was actually predicting.

00:05:04   It is cool, though. I could see this being really useful working in SwiftUI. Not that

00:05:08   I know about development.

00:05:11   What is your opinion on SwiftUI, Steven?

00:05:13   I think it's a UI idiom.

00:05:17   It's declarative, right?

00:05:18   Yeah, it declares itself to be Swift.

00:05:21   It declares!

00:05:22   Yeah, I mean, if there's one thing we can all agree on is that SwiftUI is declarative.

00:05:27   can agree on that part. Yeah, yeah. I mean, of course, you know, when it comes to the

00:05:32   clarity, but yeah. It's like the most declarative UI really. And again, we can all agree that

00:05:40   that is good for scaling across the platforms, which we want. Sure. I mean, declarative is

00:05:46   the way to go if you're going to have a, you know, uh, uh, an ecosystem, right? Of modern

00:05:52   frameworks. Of modern frameworks. You want to make sure that you're like, you're writing

00:05:56   code and you look at your coding and you're like, is this declarative enough? And if not,

00:06:00   you know, you gotta really, you gotta reassess your setup.

00:06:03   You look at the code and you're like, this isn't declaring anything. And then you throw

00:06:07   it away. Start again.

00:06:09   We should be developers. I'm just saying.

00:06:12   We know, we know what we're talking about.

00:06:14   We do. We do.

00:06:15   While we're in the lane of WWDC follow up, Apple design awards were held this week. Not

00:06:21   the week of WWDC, which is kind of, kind of weird, but I guess they could take all the

00:06:25   time they want. John Voorhees, whoever that is, has an article over on MacStories about

00:06:31   the winners. No Mac winners, all iOS. Some people are cranky about that. But I think

00:06:38   the apps here are all really pretty cool.

00:06:41   It's nice to see a lot of iPad apps, I think, in this year's awards, specifically called

00:06:48   about. Darkroom, for example, Loom, which is a very fun and innovative animation utility

00:06:55   for iPad. There's Shaper, which is of course the 3D modeling app. There's StaffPad, I remember

00:07:01   it being a big deal for professional musicians when it came on the iPad. I think StaffPad

00:07:06   used to be on Windows before, and they were able to bring out an iPad version as well.

00:07:11   And then of course there's some Apple Arcade games, we're going to talk about Apple Arcade

00:07:15   later, I think. But yeah, I think it's nice to see, especially on the productivity side,

00:07:20   Apple giving these awards to iPad apps. It's a good sign, I like it, personally speaking, of course.

00:07:27   The lack of Mac awards, we were actually talking about this in private in our group,

00:07:34   also with John Voorhees. There's a real question of, like, who would you give the award to on the

00:07:41   the Mac. Sure, stuff like Pixelmator Pro didn't really come out in 2020, though. It was more

00:07:47   like of a 2019 thing and it received a bunch of...

00:07:50   I just searched because I was intrigued. There were no Mac winners last year either. There

00:07:55   was a game that ran on the Mac, but it was an iPhone and iPad game that also ran on the

00:08:00   Mac. So this isn't new.

00:08:01   Yeah, like the Apple Arcade ones run on the Mac, but they're not what I consider Mac apps,

00:08:06   right? They're not cross platformy things. Anyways.

00:08:10   That's not to say there are no great apps on the Mac, it's just there's a lot fewer

00:08:17   than them, especially on the Mac App Store.

00:08:21   In 2018 the app Agenda won for iOS and Mac OS, but let's be honest it probably won for

00:08:28   iOS.

00:08:29   Mmhmm.

00:08:30   I'm like trying to go back, like how far do I need to go back to find an app that was

00:08:35   just a Mac app?

00:08:37   like 87 88 you know the least apps were dying off 2017 there weren't the only

00:08:44   app that ran on the Mac or two actually things in airmail 3 but they were also

00:08:50   cross-platform so honestly may have not even be considered for their makness

00:08:54   man you guys keep going but I'm gonna keep searching for this so we'll do some

00:08:59   real-time follow-up to our follow-up shortcuts got a lot of stuff you know

00:09:04   it wasn't mentioned in the keynote, wasn't really in the State of the Union, I don't think, but

00:09:08   turns out there's a lot of cool stuff. We talked about some of it last week, but Federico, we

00:09:14   wanted to point out one thing in particular here, right? I had no idea that this was actually

00:09:18   brought back, but it was first noticed by Simon Stovering, who is the developer of Scriptable

00:09:24   and DataJar on Twitter. He noticed that it is now possible again to import shortcuts as files. So,

00:09:33   if it used to be possible that you could export an individual shortcut as a .shortcut file.

00:09:41   And in previous versions of shortcuts before iOS 13, it was possible to basically create these

00:09:47   local backups, these local copies of your shortcuts, and delete them from the app. And then

00:09:53   if you wanted to re-import one of those shortcuts, you could just use the file. And this feature was

00:09:59   removed last year in iOS 13 as part of the stricter security measures in shortcuts.

00:10:06   And a lot of people, including myself, criticized this decision of not allowing people to back up

00:10:15   their own shortcuts as individual files offline, instead forcing everybody to use iCloud.com,

00:10:21   which is a sharing method, it's not a backup method. Those are two different things. Now,

00:10:26   in iOS 14 you can import your .shortcut files again. So very good news, especially if you like

00:10:34   me. I have lots of shortcuts and you maybe... maybe you have like a shortcut that is kind of meta, but

00:10:41   I have a shortcut that backs up all my shortcuts in a zip archive. And I run this regularly, and in

00:10:47   fact I had so much faith that complaining about this stuff would actually work that I've been

00:10:54   running this shortcut every month for the past year, even though it wasn't possible

00:10:58   to import those shortcuts anymore, because I kept my faith. I'm a man of faith. I keep

00:11:02   my faith in things that I feel strongly about. And my faith has been rewarded, because now,

00:11:08   well, not that I need to import my backup again, but I was right in feeling that this

00:11:15   feature would come back. And I think, generally speaking, it feeds into this idea that Apple

00:11:21   has been listening to power users regarding shortcuts for the past few months. In fact,

00:11:26   in addition to power user features like this one and the other features that we talked about

00:11:32   last week, like copy and paste and folders, there's also some really interesting additions for

00:11:38   developers who want to integrate with shortcuts and do something more than just use like a series

00:11:45   shortcut to activate like a quick feature. If you're a developer you can now mark some of your

00:11:53   actions in shortcuts as deprecated. This is quite common for apps that ship a specific shortcuts

00:12:02   integration and then later the developer wants to do something else but they are stuck with that

00:12:07   old action. They cannot quite remove it because it would break a shortcut that maybe some people

00:12:13   have created, but they want to introduce a new version of the same action. Well, now if you're

00:12:18   a developer, you can say this action is deprecated, it'll break in a future version of my app,

00:12:23   there's a new action, there's a new different action that you can install in the meantime.

00:12:28   So that's very nice. And I know that developers like Simon and like Greg Piers of Jafs have been

00:12:33   asking for this kind of functionality. And the second one, this was actually mentioned in one

00:12:39   one of the sessions, there's a new API for shortcuts developers. It's called

00:12:45   In-App Intent Handling, which basically means that if you're a developer and

00:12:50   you have an intents-based integration, so intents are the

00:12:55   technology that powers the actions the developers can make for the shortcuts

00:13:00   app, now you can handle those intents inside of your own app, instead of

00:13:06   of running the intent inside of the extension.

00:13:09   Basically, this means that you're not,

00:13:14   like the end user, you're not gonna notice anything.

00:13:16   It's more of a technical change.

00:13:18   But in practice, it means that a lot of actions

00:13:21   are gonna be a lot more powerful with iOS 14.

00:13:25   Because running an intent-based extension

00:13:29   comes with its own limitations,

00:13:31   in terms of like APIs and frameworks that you can access.

00:13:35   And now if you run the intent in app,

00:13:39   you will not have those limitations anymore.

00:13:41   A good example of this would be again,

00:13:43   Scriptable by Simon Stovring.

00:13:47   Previously with the old Intents framework,

00:13:50   you couldn't use bookmarks, file bookmarks,

00:13:53   created in Scriptable inside of shortcuts.

00:13:58   And Simon treated again a video showing how

00:14:02   it was able to switch to the new

00:14:03   in-app intent handling in iOS 14,

00:14:05   and now shortcuts will be able to retrieve and use

00:14:08   and access all of your file bookmarks

00:14:11   that you created in Inscriptable,

00:14:12   because there's no extension in the middle anymore.

00:14:15   So a lot of these limitations, I believe, will go away

00:14:18   and will have a lot of actions

00:14:20   that will be a lot more powerful than before.

00:14:22   So again, these are very much like technical changes,

00:14:25   but if you're the kind of developer

00:14:28   really wants to integrate with shortcuts,

00:14:29   you should be taking a look at this stuff,

00:14:32   because both of these, like being able to mark actions

00:14:35   as deprecated and have a superior handling

00:14:38   for your intents.

00:14:40   I know developers like Simon, like Greg,

00:14:42   have been asking for these features.

00:14:44   Also Alex of Toolbox Pro, they've

00:14:46   been asking for these features for the past 12 months.

00:14:48   And it's very good to see that somebody on the shortcuts team

00:14:52   is still listening, even though they may not

00:14:54   be as vocal about it on Twitter as before,

00:14:57   but they're still listening.

00:14:58   And really, for them, this in theory

00:15:01   should be low priority stuff. This is not like...

00:15:06   This is the most power of power users that use these tools. You've got

00:15:11   Shortcut's power users and then you have power user power users who are using

00:15:14   like Scriptable and Charti and yeah you know that it's like a... this is not to

00:15:21   discredit those applications they are fantastic but they are you know they

00:15:27   really are for specific people which is why they're priced that way as well as

00:15:30   they should be like they're not cheap applications for that for that reason so

00:15:33   by the way 2015 again was the last time that an app let me guess which one okay

00:15:43   they were two two of them yeah one of them is capo incorrect oh no

00:15:51   Steven, do you want to guess? 2015. 2015.

00:15:55   Pixelmator or something. Wrong.

00:15:57   Umm... Reader?

00:16:00   Wrong.

00:16:02   Tot?

00:16:04   Noctapel.

00:16:06   Fantastical2 and Affinity Designer.

00:16:08   Affinity!

00:16:10   And they won explicitly for their Mac apps.

00:16:14   So it's been five years since a standalone straight up Mac app has won an Apple Design award.

00:16:20   So the fact that people seem surprised this year, there you go, don't be.

00:16:25   We have some very important follow-up. Myke, I feel like as his Royal Highness you should share this with the people.

00:16:32   No, this isn't how it works because we don't have these kinds of documents.

00:16:37   Alright.

00:16:38   We don't have these kinds of documents in a Royal institution.

00:16:44   Right.

00:16:45   So I think you should do it.

00:16:46   So big news, Batias over on Twitter has created for us a PDF that is the Bill of Rickeys.

00:16:54   This is incredible. I cannot believe that this happened so quickly.

00:16:59   Now I have a question. Was this in the main show? Or was it in the post show?

00:17:05   I don't, I can't tell the difference.

00:17:07   Okay.

00:17:08   But yes, basically, as a joke, as most of the things I say, it was just like a quick joke of

00:17:15   of like, hey, imagine if all the rules behind our Ricky's and our predictions game that

00:17:21   we do every year, imagine if it was like presented as like a physical manuscript that looked

00:17:28   like the bill of rights or the Magna Carta and somebody actually put this together. So

00:17:35   as you can imagine, it looks like an old document with the handwriting.

00:17:39   It's very well done. It's very well done. And it begins saying,

00:17:44   What's the name of when you start one of these documents and the first letter is bigger than

00:17:51   the rest of the text?

00:17:53   Drop cap?

00:17:54   Maybe. Maybe it's dead. Maybe it is dead.

00:17:57   Not when it's bigger, when it also has that very specific look.

00:18:00   Yeah, it's got that look.

00:18:03   As Jason knows, he was around when they wrote the Constitution.

00:18:05   It's got that look.

00:18:06   Well, he was.

00:18:07   Anyway, it says, "We, the co-hosts of the Connected Podcast, in order to form a more

00:18:13   perfect podcast, establish justice, foster network tranquility. Boy, tranquility is such

00:18:19   a good word. Promote the weird fish emoji, uphold technology without borders and secure

00:18:26   the blessing of Apple related news to ourselves and our listeners. Do ordain and establish

00:18:33   this bill of rickies for the connected podcast of relay FM. My word, this is perfect. This

00:18:38   is beautiful.

00:18:39   It's beautiful. And then it goes on to list all of the rules as they are currently.

00:18:46   There is a space for us to sign this and I think the three of us should all sign it.

00:18:52   And we have to sign it and send it around to get real signatures.

00:18:56   That sounds like a project for me.

00:18:58   Should we get this notarized? Like actually notarized?

00:19:02   Yes, we should.

00:19:03   If you are a listener who is a notary, let us know if this is a crime.

00:19:08   Is this legal? Like, can you actually notarize this stuff?

00:19:13   I genuinely would like it notarized. How do we do that? Do we have to get on a Zoom call?

00:19:18   No, no, we're doing this wrong. We have to sign this in person. So next time we do a

00:19:23   live show...

00:19:24   Oh my... Oh, yes. Yes.

00:19:26   We'll sign it and have it notarized on stage.

00:19:29   You've got to make it big. Like, really big.

00:19:32   That we will do. So we will find an Otterie who's willing to come on stage for a live

00:19:37   podcast recording.

00:19:39   I have another thing, and this should probably be added into the Bill of Rickeys. Whoever

00:19:43   wins has to take it home, and it is their property, until the next winner wins. And

00:19:53   it then has to be sent to that person to be looked after.

00:19:57   Wow, yes. Also, what are your guys' thoughts on having some kind of like medieval style

00:20:06   announcer read out the Bill of Rickeys before we declare the winner? Like a jester or like

00:20:14   somebody? Well, that's a good, I mean we always read the rules anyway. It could be like either

00:20:19   a jester or like, like, like, I don't know, somebody and like there's like also trumpets.

00:20:25   A town crier? A town crier with a bell? Yes. Oh my god. Is that another job for Jason?

00:20:32   Town crier? As long as they don't have to flip a coin we're fine.

00:20:37   We can talk. Alright, so this is continuing to get more and more complicated.

00:20:43   So I have a PDF of this in our dropbox and we'll go from there. But this is amazing,

00:20:48   thank you so much for this amazing work. We have some follow out. I wanted to point

00:20:55   people to upgrade episode 304 or Myke you and Jason had a really cool interview

00:21:01   yeah we had the opportunity to interview Bob Borchers and Ronak Shah who work on

00:21:06   Apple's product marketing teams and we spoke about Mac OS Big Sur and some of

00:21:12   the new features in Safari so if you want to check that out I think it was a

00:21:16   really great interview came out really well and yeah I'm really pleased that

00:21:20   that we were able to get Apple on the show.

00:21:23   Like I guess, spoiler alert,

00:21:25   like we're about to, after this break, right,

00:21:28   we're gonna have another interview,

00:21:29   which we'll talk about in a minute.

00:21:30   Stephen, would you like to take a break

00:21:31   and we'll introduce that?

00:21:32   - Let's take a break and then we'll introduce that.

00:21:35   How does that sound?

00:21:36   (laughing)

00:21:37   - Great.

00:21:39   - We're on the same page.

00:21:40   (laughing)

00:21:42   - Federico, what do you think?

00:21:45   - Yeah, sure.

00:21:46   I mean, why not?

00:21:48   Mm hmm. Mm hmm. This episode of connected is brought to you by PDF

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00:23:11   All right, so a few days ago, we had the opportunity of sitting down

00:23:15   with Jenny Chen and Stephen Tomer from Apple.

00:23:18   Stephen is from the product marketing team.

00:23:20   And Jenny is an engineer who works on Apple Pencil software.

00:23:24   Jenny was in the keynote showing off the new features

00:23:27   for the Apple Pencil, which obviously I'm very excited about.

00:23:30   So we're going to go to that interview now and you're going to hear all about

00:23:33   Apple Pencil and a lot of conversation about iPadOS as well.

00:23:38   So for me, definitely both Scribble and the new handwriting and shape recognition features in

00:23:45   iPadOS and PencilKit are easily my favorite new features in the entire operating system.

00:23:50   So I really want to start talking with these first. So Jenny, do you imagine that these new

00:23:58   features are going to make the Apple Pencil even more of a core part of iPad use for a lot of

00:24:05   people? Yeah, I mean, definitely. I think one of the really great parts about Apple Pencil and the

00:24:11   iPad is, A, the note-taking abilities that we had before, but now we're so much smarter with what

00:24:17   you can do with it. Like, you know, we can recognize your handwriting. It's so much easier

00:24:21   to select without having to enter any modal type things. And then along with Scribble, it's like,

00:24:28   I can go from one to the other, never have to put it down. Yeah, I think that's totally right. And

00:24:33   And just to add a little bit more to that is,

00:24:37   one of the things we've heard for many years

00:24:39   from our very passionate Apple Pencil users is--

00:24:43   and I think this is something that you can only

00:24:45   appreciate if you really are a passionate Apple Pencil user--

00:24:48   is when you're using it, when you're

00:24:50   in that flow of drawing or illustration or note taking,

00:24:54   putting it down can have that effect of breaking that flow.

00:24:59   And you don't want to have to put it down to respond to an i

00:25:02   message or do a quick search in maps for, you know, a dinner location or something like

00:25:07   that.

00:25:08   And so with Scribble, you don't have to put it away to do those kinds of things.

00:25:12   And it keeps you in that pencil state of mind, which is tremendously helpful for people who

00:25:18   love being in the flow of using Apple Pencil.

00:25:21   And that's kind of the, I think that's really the spirit of bringing Scribble to iPad is

00:25:25   keeping you in that flow while you're using Apple Pencil.

00:25:29   So when I'm using the Apple Pencil, that's the mode that I'm in at that time.

00:25:33   Like I have done things like having the little mini keyboard in the side and using the swipe

00:25:39   to enter text on that.

00:25:41   So I am like so so happy now about being able to just handwriting the text that I want.

00:25:46   It's such a fantastic way of keeping me doing what I'm doing rather than thinking about

00:25:51   having to switch to typing now.

00:25:54   It really kind of keeps the flow on the device that I love.

00:25:57   Cool.

00:25:58   college we took this user interface class and how efficient the user interface was always

00:26:03   judged on how long does it take you to do a task, how many taps does it take, or even

00:26:08   in this case, how long does it take me to flip out my keyboard to enter this modal state,

00:26:13   enter text again. And I think one of the nice parts about the pencil is that you just put

00:26:18   it down. No taps. Quick and easy.

00:26:23   So speaking of the flow of working on the iPad, something that I got from watching some

00:26:27   of the sessions is this idea of you now have this multiplicity of inputs on iPad.

00:26:34   So you have touch, first and foremost it's still a primary touch device, and you have

00:26:38   a keyboard and you have the pointer and you have the pencil.

00:26:41   And I was wondering, what are some of the challenges of making sure that all of these

00:26:46   different inputs can work together so seamlessly on iPadOS?

00:26:49   Yeah, so that's actually something that we spent a lot of time refining.

00:26:55   I'm sure as you've played with Scribble, you'll notice how the keyboard interacts with it.

00:27:00   And so when you start scribbling, the keyboard doesn't start popping up.

00:27:04   You stay in this scribble experience, and there's that little palette that shows Go

00:27:10   or any of the other quick actions that you may need without the keyboard popping up and

00:27:14   getting in your face, even though you clearly aren't using it because you're scribbling.

00:27:19   And even with pointer interactions, too, we've done a lot of special things for Scribble

00:27:22   to make sure that you know where you're writing, but without it being super in your face.

00:27:28   Do you expect that some users will end up in situations where maybe you're using a magic

00:27:32   keyboard or an external keyboard and a pencil at the same time? Like, is it something that

00:27:37   you see or that you get, like, requests from customers of, "I want to so quickly switch

00:27:42   between all these different inputs"? Is that something that you get frequently?

00:27:46   Yeah, Federico, absolutely. And I actually think that's one of the main reasons people

00:27:51   by an iPad is it has this incredible versatility of inputs. It's arguably the most versatile

00:27:59   device we make at Apple, and that's its superpower, right? So I can, without actually changing

00:28:08   anything about the UI, and this is genuinely what I love about iPad, is I can go from a device that's

00:28:14   touch first, right? That is the center of gravity for us, is touch first. Then I can put it in the

00:28:19   Magic Keyboard and I can use the cursor. And then I can use Apple Pencil in that same flow,

00:28:27   and I never once have to change the way the UI works. I don't go from some desktop mode to touch

00:28:34   mode. The OS just knows what I'm doing and adapts to that. And I think that is how we think about

00:28:42   iPad. That's what our customers love about iPad. And so we work really hard

00:28:48   and it's at the engineering level, and Jenny could probably talk more about this, is it's

00:28:54   really hard to make that seamless, but that's why we do what we do, right? We don't want the customer

00:29:00   to have to have to worry about any of that. They should just be able to use the iPad with any input

00:29:04   they want, and it seamlessly adapts to them. I've been playing with the handwriting recognition for

00:29:10   a couple of days on my beloved iPad mini. I'm trying to get all my friends back into the iPad

00:29:14   Mini Club. Hey I'm back in the iPad Mini Club, I'm right there with you. Yeah I know, it's

00:29:18   really just Myke. If they keep talking about it I'm gonna end up doing it. It's like, but

00:29:28   then I'll have three iPads in consistent use. I told you it's perfect for reading, the thing

00:29:33   is you don't like to read. So that's the problem. Then we'll get you. I've been incredibly impressed

00:29:40   with not only the accuracy of the handwriting recognition, but the speed of it as well.

00:29:46   Could you talk a little bit about how that's happening?

00:29:48   Is it on-device?

00:29:49   Is it using machine learning?

00:29:51   What's going on behind the scenes?

00:29:52   Yeah, I mean, we've obviously done a lot of work on the machine learning side.

00:29:57   It's all on-device.

00:29:59   We've trained a lot of models with a huge amount of data.

00:30:03   And then we have this on-device machine learning that we've made sure is super quick, super

00:30:08   performant.

00:30:09   We've actually done a lot of work this year because we have all of these super

00:30:13   responsive handwriting type features that kind of require, you know, immediate

00:30:17   feedback to make sure that everything is smooth and zippy.

00:30:20   And then even from the user interface side, you know, there was also a lot of

00:30:24   work done in terms of like tuning those animations to make sure they also feel,

00:30:28   you know, reactive and zippy as well.

00:30:29   And I think the other interesting point on this one is there's no

00:30:34   training of this system involved.

00:30:37   You don't have to go through a give us your handwriting sample,

00:30:41   write the quick brown fox seven times or anything like that.

00:30:45   We've really worked hard to make sure that this thing works

00:30:48   amazing out of the box.

00:30:51   And the processing happens all in real time.

00:30:54   So as you're taking notes, you can immediately

00:30:56   go into data detectors.

00:30:57   You can immediately start selecting text.

00:30:59   And I think that's a real testament to the work

00:31:02   that Jenny and the team have done on the model training

00:31:05   part and the A-series processors right in every iPad that our users have is they're incredibly

00:31:11   fast, incredibly powerful, and we can do all of this in real time. And it's when you bring that

00:31:17   hardware and software integration together that really makes that experience incredibly seamless

00:31:22   for the customers. Two things that I've been super impressed about in my testing so far

00:31:28   is one how the system doesn't care if I'm writing in like print or cursive or a mixture of both,

00:31:35   which is what I do, which I was so surprised that it didn't care. But also I have quite bad

00:31:41   handwriting, doesn't matter. And like seriously hats off to that because like this stuff is

00:31:47   incredibly hard to do and especially as you say with no training like that is very impressive.

00:31:52   Hey Jenny, do you you might also want to talk a little bit about how

00:31:57   You guys worked really hard to make sure it works great when you're writing, you know,

00:32:01   not in a straight line and some of the considerations there, because I think that's

00:32:05   also, there's some really great details that the team thought about here.

00:32:09   Yeah, I mean, I think both are really great points. The fact that it recognizes most people's

00:32:14   handwritings, even if maybe a human couldn't even read your handwriting, I think is really impressive.

00:32:20   And I think that's really a testament to the amount of work that our machine learning team

00:32:25   has done, right, and gathering the corpus of training model data so that when you do write

00:32:30   on your device, you don't need to have trained it with your own handwriting already. It kind of

00:32:35   already knows. And then, in addition, like Stephen said, you could write in a little spiral and it

00:32:41   would still recognize it, which I think is also really impressive. And so we've also done a lot

00:32:45   of work tracking your strokes as they go to see what path you might have followed. And you can

00:32:53   can see that even when you smart select, right, you know,

00:32:56   when you smart select, when you select normal text, it's very

00:33:01   linear. But I think that's one of the awesome parts that we

00:33:05   have with smart selection with your handwriting is that, you

00:33:08   know, how often is my handwriting actually a straight

00:33:11   line? Probably never. It always has a slight tilt. And you know,

00:33:16   maybe I'm feeling a little fun and want to write in a little

00:33:19   spiral or like in a little wave. And I think that's one of the

00:33:22   really cool parts about smart selection is that, you know, we can still know that you're

00:33:27   writing in this wave and select it like that instead of being constrained to this really

00:33:32   linear form.

00:33:33   JEAN-PAULO

00:33:51   that Scribble uses. And so I feel like it's one of those things where it's like, "Oh, yeah,

00:33:57   of course you should be able to select handwriting like this. It works with typed text. Easy peasy,

00:34:02   right?" But there's so much machine learning happening under the hood. And then in addition,

00:34:07   like, as I said before, one of those challenges is that text is just so linear versus your

00:34:13   handwriting. It could be diagrams and drawings, nonlinear text, random arrows pointing everywhere.

00:34:20   And so that was definitely one of the challenges of handling

00:34:23   selection, smart selection, in Notes.

00:34:27   So I was playing around with Scribble on iPad S14

00:34:30   on my iPad Pro.

00:34:31   And something that I noticed is that-- so I

00:34:33   tried to handwrite in a bunch of different text fields.

00:34:36   And something that I noticed was that when I opened Music

00:34:39   and I went to search for something on Apple Music,

00:34:42   and I used Scribble in the search field,

00:34:45   the placeholder text inside the search field disappeared.

00:34:48   And so then I was watching a session about this,

00:34:51   and I wanted to ask you, if I'm a third-party developer,

00:34:55   and I wanna integrate, and I wanna offer support

00:34:57   for Scribble in my text fields,

00:34:59   are there any particular considerations

00:35:01   that I should account for, such as, for example,

00:35:04   in Apple Music, you got the placeholder text,

00:35:07   but it disappears because it doesn't wanna get in the way

00:35:09   of your handwriting?

00:35:11   - Yeah, definitely.

00:35:12   I think your music example is a perfect example of that.

00:35:15   Other considerations are if your text field moves.

00:35:19   So search is actually a good example of this.

00:35:22   So if you type in your Safari search bar,

00:35:25   you know, with a normal keyboard,

00:35:26   you'll actually notice the search bar moves up

00:35:28   as you type to, you know,

00:35:29   give more room to surface the search results.

00:35:32   But when you use a pencil,

00:35:34   you actually don't want that, right?

00:35:35   Because if you're writing and then all of a sudden

00:35:37   the text, the like search bar moves underneath your pencil,

00:35:40   like that's such a jarring experience, right?

00:35:43   I think one of those principles that we really want third parties to adhere to is, you know,

00:35:48   make sure that your text fields stay where they are when users write. Another consideration, too,

00:35:54   is how big your text field is in the space. So if you'll open messages, for example, you have

00:36:01   a single line text field on the bottom, which, as you're typing, feels pretty natural, but as

00:36:08   your writing can get a little awkward as your hand is, you know, hanging halfway off the iPad,

00:36:13   or as you like, you know, start entering a multi-line scenario. And so kind of adjusting

00:36:20   your text field so that they feel the most natural that you can for writing. I think one of the great

00:36:25   parts that we actually also do for you that you don't have to do as a third-party app developer,

00:36:29   but you can customize if you want, is that you can be a little sloppy and right outside the box

00:36:34   if you want. So even if I start scribbling and my handwriting is too big for this tiny text field,

00:36:40   you can still write outside the lines, don't have to follow the lines like you did in elementary

00:36:44   school, and will still know what text box you meant to write in.

00:36:48   Yeah, and to add a little bit more to that, Federico, since you brought it up,

00:36:52   the other thing the team worked incredibly hard on is making sure that the vast majority of

00:36:57   third-party apps don't actually have to do any adoption to get scribble.

00:37:01   Right, that was my follow-up.

00:37:02   So good. You and I are on the same wavelength, which is no surprise at all. Yeah. So this is

00:37:08   something that as we were looking at Scribble internally, we wanted to make sure that adoption

00:37:13   was only necessary in the places where we might not be able to do that at the system level. Maybe

00:37:19   there's something highly custom in the app, but I think you'll find that the overwhelming majority

00:37:23   of apps will just work with Scribble. And I think that is, and that includes apps that use web views

00:37:29   in their apps and native obviously UI text fields. And I think this is part of really bringing

00:37:35   Scribble to life is it just works and you'll find that and I think that's what users will expect

00:37:41   right when you think about it. You don't think if a keyboard is going to come up when you tap into

00:37:45   a text field and Scribble should work exactly the same way and it does. I am also as well a big pen

00:37:52   and paper nerd but one of the things that I love about when you can intersect these analog and

00:37:58   digital tools is how they can assist you in places that you would otherwise be lost in.

00:38:05   And smart shapes and data detectors are really good examples of that because I can still get the

00:38:12   feeling of drawing myself or writing down something, taking a note myself, but still get to take

00:38:18   advantage of what a computer can do for me. And I thought that that was such a beautiful way of

00:38:25   Bridging the gaps between those two things does that type of stuff ever drive your thinking about trying to find ways to bridge those?

00:38:31   experiences for people oh

00:38:33   Absolutely. I mean, I think one of the principles that we have with Apple pencils

00:38:38   we really want to make it, you know, just as easy as

00:38:40   Picking up a normal pencil and paper right? I put my pencil down

00:38:44   I'm making marks really easy and like you said, I think at least for me too. There's something really

00:38:51   memory enforcing about writing something down. Yeah. And so I

00:38:55   take notes aggressively, just so that I can help absorb that

00:38:59   information. Another one of those things that we think about

00:39:01   is, how can we make it as smooth and easy as possible? But then

00:39:06   what can we also provide you? That makes it even better? Like,

00:39:09   why would I reach for an iPad over a pencil and paper, right?

00:39:12   And I think these smart features really help build on that a lot,

00:39:17   so that it's not just the thing you wrote and, you know, help you absorb this information.

00:39:22   But also you can take action on it. You can do things to it later. You can, you know, I think

00:39:29   one of the great parts is like, "Oh, I needed to insert this whole extra paragraph because I forgot

00:39:35   to write it in." And instead of, you know, drawing those really long arrows and trying to fit things

00:39:40   in the margins, I can just like move everything and everything still looks really nice.

00:39:44   things like search, right? Paper, you can't search your handwriting. And so yeah, I think

00:39:49   Jenny's spot on. We want to provide that friction-free experience you get with paper,

00:39:55   but then take it to a whole new place. You know, even scanning documents in, right? You scan a

00:40:01   document in and you can search that document now in Notes. And so that's, yeah, we're really excited

00:40:07   about this kind of whole new way to work with on iPad. Yeah, I was actually, you know, taking

00:40:12   notes the other day and then someone was wrote a website and I was like oh I really want that

00:40:16   website and I'd handwritten it and then I was able to like go to the website afterwards and I was

00:40:20   like wow this is so useful. When the Apple Pencil came around the first time when we first had it,

00:40:26   it was really focused on being a creative tool and an artistic tool and that was like a really

00:40:32   fantastic purpose for it but now it's it really feels like these features are helping it become

00:40:38   the meeting tool, the note-taking tool that many people I think do use the Apple Pencil for,

00:40:44   but these new features really help make that a much, much better experience,

00:40:49   which I think is really amazing. Yeah, 100% agree. It's been really fun to watch

00:40:55   Apple Pencil grow, right? And I think the principles of it, what's great is they've

00:41:02   remain the same. We want low latency, right, versatility. All of those things have helped

00:41:08   make it give you that feeling of paper. And I think the other key part of this is,

00:41:15   and we talked about this last year at WWDC, where we were able to reduce the latency in software.

00:41:20   And I think that's one of the incredible parts about Apple Pencil is that we can continue to

00:41:25   improve it, both from the hardware and the software perspective. That's what's been helping

00:41:29   it grow and grow and grow into this really incredible way to input on iPad.

00:41:36   Yeah, to add to Steven's point too, I think iPad itself has seen this transformation from this

00:41:42   creative device to this productivity device as well. I can do so much more on my iPad,

00:41:47   and then all these pencil features just help you be more productive as well.

00:41:51   So Steven, I'd like to dig in a bit deeper on iPad S14 in general, if you don't mind.

00:41:59   Believe it or not, Federico has some questions.

00:42:03   Exactly, exactly.

00:42:05   Look, I have a long list and I had to cut it down, so bear with me.

00:42:09   Just a few questions.

00:42:13   So I guess the first one that comes to mind is the home screen, right?

00:42:18   And on IPRS 14, we have these new widgets,

00:42:20   this new widget kit framework for developers,

00:42:23   and these widgets that can be glanceable, can be relevant,

00:42:26   and of course you've provided some default widgets.

00:42:29   We can try it now with Apple Music and Notes and Reminders,

00:42:32   and they look fantastic.

00:42:34   Now, on the iPhone, the home screen allows you

00:42:37   to intermix these widgets with app icons,

00:42:40   and so you can have these very custom layouts

00:42:42   with widgets of multiple sizes,

00:42:44   and then you can have the icons flow around them.

00:42:46   On the iPad, in iPadOS 14, however,

00:42:49   the widgets are still placed in the left column.

00:42:51   And I was wondering if you could elaborate a little

00:42:54   on what was the reasoning behind this difference between the two home screen experiences?

00:42:59   Absolutely, glad you asked about that. Before I jump into that, I do think, and I think it's worth

00:43:06   kind of noting that aside from the difference in where you can place them, the widgets themselves

00:43:12   are identical in terms of capability. So the design, the size, the smarts, which we can talk

00:43:18   about as well if you'd like, are all the same, which is great. So it really gives you that nice,

00:43:22   consistent experience. The short answer is that this year we really decided to focus the iOS

00:43:30   experience on intermixing on the home screen. As you know very well, last year we added the

00:43:35   ability to pin widgets to pin the Today View as it were next to your apps on iPad. And we really

00:43:42   felt this year that that was the right placement for them because you can have them right there

00:43:47   with your apps on iPad, the larger screen on iPad also lends itself better to that so you can get

00:43:53   more content on the screen. Whereas on iPhone, if you want that experience, you know, prior to iOS

00:43:58   14, you had to swipe over to Today View, which you can still do. But putting them on the home screen

00:44:03   gave iPhone users that same immediate benefit of accessing the widgets from the home screen. And so

00:44:08   that was why we decided to kind of keep those separate. The other feature that is also only on

00:44:14   on the iPhone for now, I believe, is the App Library.

00:44:16   So you have this new method of organizing apps automatically

00:44:20   for you in different categories.

00:44:21   And you have also intelligence there

00:44:23   because you have suggestions and you have recently added,

00:44:26   but that's only on the iPhone.

00:44:27   And now this is my personal theory,

00:44:29   and you can correct me if I'm wrong,

00:44:31   but between the widgets and the App Library,

00:44:34   I feel like the App Library makes more sense on the iPhone,

00:44:37   like personally speaking.

00:44:38   And that's also part of something that I heard

00:44:40   in one of the sessions of that the average person

00:44:43   goes back to the home screen over 90 times a day.

00:44:47   And that to me feels like an iPhone thing.

00:44:48   It feels like an iPhone interaction.

00:44:50   Like you pick it up and you navigate back and forth

00:44:52   between apps and the home screen.

00:44:54   If that's the line of reasoning, I guess it makes sense

00:44:57   to have the app library on the iPhone

00:44:59   because it's the kind of organizational tool

00:45:01   that speeds up these interactions

00:45:04   between apps and the home screen.

00:45:05   - Yeah, I think that could certainly be part of it

00:45:08   for a lot of people.

00:45:09   I think the other kind of thing to keep in mind too

00:45:12   is on iPad again, and I'll I think that's worth kind of continuing to sort of beat this drum of

00:45:18   we have a large screen you can have more apps per page and as you know Federico but I'll say it for

00:45:25   you know posterity we've got the dock and I think on iPad the dock is something that you can load up

00:45:31   with lots of apps you can access it over apps so it becomes that additional way of switching between

00:45:37   apps and as well if you have a hardware keyboard on iPad you can command space and launch apps that

00:45:44   way and I think this does come back to a higher level point which is you know we really do think

00:45:48   about these experiences independently right how can we create the right experience for iPad how

00:45:54   can we create the right experience for iPhone and then of course share those technologies where it

00:45:59   makes sense for users but also acknowledge that people use devices in different ways their screens

00:46:04   are different sizes and so and that's what drives all of our software design and software

00:46:10   development. You know that's why you see this really great distinct experience on iPad.

00:46:14   While we're talking about iPad design, a phrase that's kind of been used in some of the sessions

00:46:21   is designed for the iPad or the iPad idiom and I wanted to know how you think about that. You know

00:46:27   there's a lot of consistency like you just said between the phone and the iPad but now there's

00:46:31   also consistency between iPadOS and macOS. So kind of how do you feel, how do you think about those

00:46:38   things and where does the iPad sort of fit into that spectrum? Absolutely. Great question. Kind

00:46:42   of stepping back just a little bit, I think when we think about those three categories of devices,

00:46:46   and of course all the other devices we make like Apple Watch, et cetera, the Uber driving force

00:46:52   for us is to deliver the right experience for the right device. I think that is, you know, that's how

00:46:57   we think about these things, and as I mentioned before, and figuring out how they are consistent

00:47:03   and how do they work well together, because a lot of our users have all those devices,

00:47:07   right? And so they should work really well together. Then as we think about iPad, what

00:47:12   drives us there is how can we make really efficient use of that large screen to help

00:47:19   people get more done faster? And I think a great example of that is, and we talked about

00:47:26   a little bit earlier before we got started, which was the addition of sidebars really does speed up

00:47:31   that experience because what you end up with is you end up with apps that are able to put

00:47:35   all of their core functionality right in the main window. So instead of tapping on something and

00:47:41   having another panel open or shifting to another place, you can just tap, tap, tap like in photos

00:47:47   or music and the content updates on the right hand side. That's a really powerful and efficient way to

00:47:52   to work on an iPad. The other nice thing about the sidebars is they support drag and drop

00:47:56   and spring loading, as you saw in the demo, so you can pick things up and move them around

00:48:00   really naturally and fluidly. And that's an efficiency that we and that's kind of what

00:48:05   drives our thinking, which is how can we let users get more done on this beautiful, large

00:48:11   multi-touch display? And then the other benefit there, as you alluded to on the Mac side,

00:48:16   is any developers that want to bring those apps over to the Mac via Mac Catalyst, those

00:48:21   all of those features translate beautifully to the Mac. So you'll get those great sidebars on the Mac,

00:48:26   etc. pull-down menus. And I think that's another way to kind of really help the ecosystem out.

00:48:33   One other couple other points I wanted to drop in there too, while we're talking about design for

00:48:37   iPad elements is, you know, we not only went with sidebars, but we went really deep into the

00:48:44   experience. So pull-down menus, which are incredibly efficient. We have a new date picker. So,

00:48:50   You know the kind of slot machine style date picker on iPad?

00:48:55   That is now a mini calendar where you can type in.

00:48:57   I love that so much. I'm so happy.

00:49:01   Isn't it awesome?

00:49:01   Yeah. I didn't realize that I didn't want the kind of wheel anymore until I started using the

00:49:09   trackpad. And then I was like, I have a trackpad and keyboard. I want to type now or tap now.

00:49:15   Right. That is really wonderful.

00:49:17   Ask and you shall receive.

00:49:20   And then the other one is, and Jenny can talk even deeper about this, we now have a system-wide color

00:49:26   picker with an eyedropper just like you would expect, and so that will help developers implement

00:49:32   this. And the overarching idea here is that we can generalize these tools. Developers can easily

00:49:40   integrate them into their apps, including things like Pencil with PencilKit, and our users get this

00:49:47   incredibly consistent experience across apps, which is just a great way for them to deliver

00:49:54   great apps across all our platforms. While we're here, I'd like to hear a little bit about the

00:50:00   color picker. Again, something that's been on the Mac for ages now showing up elsewhere. What

00:50:05   considerations went into that? Yeah, I mean, I think, like you said, we kind of take it for

00:50:10   granted on the Mac, right? You know, it's this easy to use thing. I can pick colors really easily

00:50:14   on the Mac, but at least for on iOS and iPadOS, you know, if you wanted a color picker, you had

00:50:21   to implement all of that yourself. And you know, there are lots of different ways to pick colors,

00:50:26   there's the grid of colors, there's the spectrum, then you have color spaces and opacity. And all of

00:50:31   it is a lot of work to implement as a third party developer and even as a user, right, you know,

00:50:35   getting used to different applications, color pickers are kind of a different experience.

00:50:41   And so it's really great that we were able to unify this all together so that you don't have to

00:50:45   do all this work if you want to just, you know, be able to change colors of like, you know, text

00:50:51   or drawings in your app. Something that really stood out to me as soon as I installed the iPad

00:50:57   S14 was I look at these sidebars and I look at these pull-down menus and I look at search,

00:51:03   and a lot of it felt instantly familiar as somebody who's seen those elements on macOS.

00:51:10   but at the same time they also felt like they didn't feel like additions to the iPad

00:51:18   didn't make sense for the platform, and I feel like you've struck a really good balance in

00:51:22   bringing over these features that maybe are inspired from work that you've done previously

00:51:28   on macOS, but they also were adapted to the iPad and they make sense for the platform.

00:51:33   And search really stands out to me there, as now you have this floating search bar in the middle

00:51:38   of the screen that doesn't hide what you're doing underneath. Can you elaborate on this,

00:51:44   sort of, bringing over these elements from the Mac, but while also rethinking their design and

00:51:50   their functionality for iPadOS? You know, one of the really unique advantages we have at Apple is

00:51:57   we make the world's best phones, the world's best tablets, and the world's best computers. And while

00:52:03   we... and we can keep those distinct, and we can share features across them. And as you note,

00:52:08   when we share features we don't just bring them over to one device or another. We really do think

00:52:13   deeply about how can we take those elements and make them feel kind of exactly as you said Federico

00:52:18   considered for that device. And there are some cases where we don't think it's right to bring

00:52:23   things over to one platform or the other. Or maybe sometimes we reimagine them completely.

00:52:28   I think you're right search is one of those ones that feels instantly familiar. It's the same

00:52:33   keyboard shortcut that you're familiar with on the Mac. It does there's kind of some nice fun

00:52:37   treatments in there where if you look up an app and you want to open up that app in split view,

00:52:42   you can actually drag it out of the search field and over to the side, and that's just a quick way

00:52:47   to get into multitasking. And so we really do think about how do we bring these to the platforms

00:52:54   and make them feel natural on that platform? How do we make them work great with touch,

00:53:00   right? We always come back to this idea iPad is a touch first device. I like to say when you use

00:53:05   iPad in its purest form, it's a sheet of glass you hold in your hand, and you should be able

00:53:09   to do everything with touch. And then as we layer on other ways to input, like the trackpad

00:53:17   and the pencil, those just make the experience better, but everything works with touch. You

00:53:21   know, pull-down menus, touch and hold and drag down work fantastic. Of course, if you

00:53:26   click on one of those with the new trackpad, it works great too. So we really do think

00:53:31   about all of the details there. And I think the result is that that really shows through

00:53:37   in the experience.

00:53:39   And speaking of those menus, they feel like an evolution of the context menus that you

00:53:46   launched last year in iOS 13. And it kind of feels like they have taken over the entire

00:53:51   OS because in a bunch of different places, like I was having a phone call with my mom

00:53:55   a couple of days ago, and I wanted to switch from the iPhone speaker to one of my home pods,

00:54:02   and when I pressed on the speaker icon, I got a pull-down menu. So it does feel like these

00:54:09   context menus have sort of taken over, and maybe it's because, as you mentioned, they

00:54:16   transition so beautifully from touch input to pointer input. Was that the reason why

00:54:23   a lot of menus are now those kinds of pull-down menus?

00:54:26   - Yeah, and also there's that,

00:54:28   and they're just really an efficient way

00:54:30   to pack a lot of functionality into a single location.

00:54:33   And I think that, you know, if we've learned something,

00:54:36   you know, from our years on the Mac is,

00:54:38   context menus can be a great way to give users

00:54:42   a lot of functionality right where they need it, right?

00:54:46   You don't have to go up to a menu at the top.

00:54:48   You can get it immediately in place.

00:54:51   And as you probably have noticed,

00:54:53   what I love about the iPad context menus is they grow,

00:54:56   the animation of they grow right out of where your finger is

00:54:59   which gives you that really,

00:55:01   that beautiful direct manipulation feeling,

00:55:04   whether you're right clicking on the track pad

00:55:05   or you're touching and holding.

00:55:06   And so I think that really is the spirit of this is

00:55:09   they're fast, they're efficient,

00:55:11   and they're exactly where you expect them to be.

00:55:14   And they just, the context menus just turned out

00:55:17   absolutely beautiful.

00:55:18   And on iPhone, you'll notice the new menus have a haptic

00:55:22   as you move your finger up and down, which is cool.

00:55:24   So it gives you that feedback of where you are.

00:55:26   And so, yeah, we love these.

00:55:28   We think there are great design element for apps.

00:55:31   There's a lot of stuff going on in iPadOS,

00:55:35   and which is really great to see.

00:55:36   Like we were already hoping that the introduction of this new platform

00:55:40   last year would continue to bring more evolution year over year,

00:55:43   which it definitely has.

00:55:45   From a developer's perspective, like we have a lot of developers

00:55:48   that listen to the show.

00:55:49   How would you describe what a great iPad app in 2020 will be following iPadOS 14?

00:55:56   What areas do you think developers should be really put in focus on when it comes to making the best iPad experience?

00:56:02   Yeah, that's a great question.

00:56:05   You know, I think what we look for in a great iPad app is a few things.

00:56:09   Number one, really consider that large screen.

00:56:14   There is so much you can do on this large screen on iPad

00:56:19   with three column views and more information

00:56:23   in the main window.

00:56:24   I think that is just, when you really kind of consider

00:56:29   this screen, the app experience can be extremely distinct.

00:56:34   That's number one.

00:56:35   Number two is I think, of course,

00:56:37   we want all of our developers to consider

00:56:39   implementing size classes so that the app works great

00:56:43   you're in split view and slide over and all of those elements which is which is what our

00:56:48   iPad customers are now coming to expect which is they can use the app full screen they can use the

00:56:53   app and slide over they can split it multi window right that's becoming another part of being a

00:56:59   modern iPad app and what I love about when you build a modern iPad app you don't have to worry

00:57:06   about implementing other things like trackpad support because that just comes along right

00:57:12   it turns out that if you build a great app for touch on iPad, it'll just work great with the cursor,

00:57:17   period, right? And so I think that is that part of it users will come to expect. And then I think

00:57:23   actually as we come back around to Pencil, that's another area that Jenny and team and she can talk

00:57:28   more about PencilKit because I think PencilKit is another thing that users are going to come,

00:57:34   you know, in some contexts come to expect that Pencil will work great in apps and PencilKit is

00:57:39   an awesome and easy way for our developers to add that capability to their apps.

00:57:45   Yeah, I think one of those things to add to Steven's point is, you know, building your own

00:57:49   pencil experience before used to be kind of a lot of effort. And one of the great parts about

00:57:54   Pencilkit is that we make it really easy. You can just, you know, I think we advertised in our talk

00:57:59   last year that it requires only five lines of code and you can get a pencil experience in your app.

00:58:05   And so I think that's part of the,

00:58:07   one of the really big parts about making your app

00:58:10   more friendly, not only just this, you know,

00:58:12   being really friendly with multi-window sizing appropriately,

00:58:15   but also, you know, helping support all these inputs

00:58:18   that users might want to use to interact

00:58:20   with your application in an easier way.

00:58:22   - Yeah, I think I can speak for all of us.

00:58:25   And we say like, we're super excited about iPadOS this year

00:58:29   and can't wait to spend much more time with it.

00:58:31   And then as the year goes on,

00:58:33   and seeing developers integrate and use all these new tools

00:58:37   is going to be amazing.

00:58:38   So we want to thank you both for taking the time

00:58:40   to talk to us today and to share all of this with our listeners.

00:58:43   It's been amazing.

00:58:44   Thank you so much.

00:58:45   Thanks for having us.

00:58:46   Yeah, thank you, guys.

00:58:47   This was a lot of fun.

00:58:48   We always love talking about this stuff.

00:58:50   So thanks for carving out some of your time in your day

00:58:52   to talk to us.

00:58:55   So that was a lot of fun.

00:58:56   I enjoyed this interview.

00:58:57   It was really cool.

00:58:58   Yeah, I was really happy for the time.

00:59:01   had lots of questions, obviously about the Apple pencil stuff because as I've said, and

00:59:06   I've I'll keep saying it. It's my favorite feature of iPad OS right now. So like I'm

00:59:13   super into it. And I was really happy with the information that we got from Steven and

00:59:17   Jenny. So I want to thank them and everybody at Apple who made that possible for us.

00:59:22   We've got some more stuff to talk about. Up next we're going to spend some time in the

00:59:26   Apple Arcade minds. But first, let me tell you about our second sponsor. This episode

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01:00:51   relay FM. Alright so a few weeks ago we spoke about Apple Arcade a little bit on

01:00:57   the show because Federico cancelled his Apple Arcade subscription and spoke a

01:01:02   little bit about being unsatisfied with the overall kind of crop of games. So was

01:01:07   Apple because there's been a strategy change for Apple Arcade as reported by

01:01:12   Jason Schreier from Bloomberg. This was Jason Schreier's first piece for

01:01:16   Bloomberg right? I think working with Mark Gurman, Jason was at Kotaku is

01:01:21   Is that right Federico?

01:01:22   Yes, you used to be a Kodaku.

01:01:25   And so I'm actually really intrigued to see what Jason will bring to Bloomberg as somebody

01:01:29   who's been in the games industry for such a long time.

01:01:32   But the two of them worked together on this piece that there's been a strategy change.

01:01:35   Apple want to see better engagement and retention for the games and Apple Arcade.

01:01:40   They have been canceling some contracts and looking for new places for games that can

01:01:47   fit this new strategy.

01:01:49   the contracts that have been made with developers for upcoming games.

01:01:53   Apparently Apple paid developers based on quote

01:01:56   "achieved milestones" that have been hit and also told them that they would work

01:02:00   with these companies again if they were willing to make the types of games that

01:02:04   they were now looking for which is quote from the article

01:02:07   "Apple is increasingly interested in titles that will keep

01:02:11   users hooked so subscribers stay beyond the free trial

01:02:15   of the service. So I wanted to just preface this by saying I am not diametrically opposed to

01:02:24   this approach that Apple now wants to take. I agree with everything I'm sure Federico will say

01:02:32   in the opposite to this, although I will also preface this by saying Federico was clearly

01:02:36   unhappy with the games that were in Apple Arcade already. But the way that I look at what Apple

01:02:42   was trying to do here now is to make in-app purchase games without purchase like IAP without

01:02:49   P is how I'm thinking of it. Like that they will want to now be funding and publishing the types of

01:02:56   games that will keep people hooked. So there was a hope and there are people that say that they

01:03:05   They wanted Apple to change the quality of mobile gaming.

01:03:10   But I would say for myself, the games that have been on Apple Arcade that are like that,

01:03:15   that are either a) trying to be a console experience or games that are better with a

01:03:19   controller on any platform, you know, like games that are platformer games that I think

01:03:25   tend not to work very well with onscreen controls for myself.

01:03:28   I don't want to play those types of games on my iOS devices or my Apple TV.

01:03:34   Will play those types of experiences on a games console. I want games that feel like mobile games on

01:03:41   My phone so the games that I have liked the most from Apple arcade games like

01:03:47   Grindstone round guard what the golf they feel like mobile games and mobile experiences

01:03:54   But there were these games. It was like that under the sea game, right?

01:03:58   And Nick and I know people love this game, but it's not for me like ocean horn

01:04:02   like I'll just play Zelda. If I want kind of big titles I will play them on a console where they

01:04:10   can be bigger for whatever reason. The games that I have liked could easily fit into the free to

01:04:19   start world, like the in-app purchase world. You can imagine that very easily. In fact, Apple

01:04:25   have been citing Grindstone as an example of what they think is a successful title for them going

01:04:30   forward when talking to developers. And you can imagine a game like Grindstone very easily

01:04:36   with in-app purchase parts of like, oh you've lost a level a bunch of times, pay or wait

01:04:42   two hours before you can play again. You can imagine that mechanic fitting very well into

01:04:46   that. And a lot of Apple Arcade's original launch titles, you could feel that they were

01:04:52   clearly games that were designed around having in-app purchase in them and that was removed.

01:04:58   there were games where the Frogger game had different outfits. Why would you do that?

01:05:03   Because you wanted people to pay for them, probably.

01:05:06   So for me, I think games that work on the App Store that are built to make people engage

01:05:14   with them, even though they at times use questionable tactics, they do give people a level of enjoyment.

01:05:25   enjoy playing those games. So if you can still give people that enjoyment or that dopamine

01:05:30   hit without at the same time gouging them for $50 gems, I would ask, is that such a

01:05:37   bad thing?

01:05:38   It's not a bad thing per se. I think it makes a lot of sense, right? I just think it's kind

01:05:46   of sad when you consider how Apple Arcade was pitched and presented. And when you consider

01:05:54   the technological advancements that Apple is bringing to gaming on iPad, I

01:06:00   just think it's said that when that Apple Arcade is changing in a way where

01:06:04   the only metric that matters is retention. And of course, I mean, it's a

01:06:09   service, right? And of course Apple wants to make sure that the people are using

01:06:13   the service and continuing to pay for the service. However, what makes me sad to

01:06:20   hear this, to read this report, is the fact that Apple is shutting down other ideas because

01:06:29   they're not addictive enough, because they're not that kind of game that makes you hooked

01:06:36   and pushes you to keep playing. Because when Apple Arcade was... Here's why, for me, this

01:06:43   is kind of a letdown. When Apple Arcade was presented, it offered this unique vision of

01:06:49   a mix of the games that you just covered, those arcade games without inner purchases,

01:06:55   combined. That was the thing for me, because those games were combined with other kinds of games, like those

01:07:02   games with the vision, games that had a story to tell, games that are a particular mechanic

01:07:07   that wouldn't make sense on consoles, and I'm talking about things like War Cards Fall,

01:07:13   Skate City, Mutazione, Over the Alps, Neocap, all these games that some of them eventually

01:07:20   also came out on consoles, but games that, you know, by all metrics, they wouldn't be

01:07:26   considered addictive games. They are, and of course, Beyond the Steel Sky, which was

01:07:31   one of the original announcements, and then it just launched, it finally came out last

01:07:37   week, which is kind of weird timing considering this, you know, this is story-based games or games

01:07:44   that are like a particular angle, a particular artistic vision, and the promise of Apple Arcade

01:07:50   was $5 a month, your one-stop place for gaming on the App Store, and you're gonna find all kinds of

01:07:59   games. We're gonna fund games that are easy to play, so puzzle games, platformers, multiplayer games,

01:08:06   sports games, family games, but you're also going to find these more sophisticated experiences. Maybe

01:08:12   that's a good way to describe it, sophisticated experiences, these more artistic indie games,

01:08:18   you know? And to hear that in the end, according to this article, again this is just rumors, but,

01:08:26   you know, Jason knows what he's writing about when he writes about video games.

01:08:31   In the end it just resolves itself as well,

01:08:34   "Yeah, we tried, but we're not addictive enough,

01:08:37   so sorry, we're gonna pay you for your milestones,

01:08:39   but we're not gonna find any more games."

01:08:41   And by the way, if you're looking for a game

01:08:44   to make for Apple Arcade, look at this one.

01:08:45   Look at this puzzle game. - Make this game.

01:08:47   - I mean, it's an amazing game.

01:08:48   But to actually go out and say,

01:08:49   "Well, we're actually looking for more of this,

01:08:52   please and thank you."

01:08:53   Like, that's, I don't know,

01:08:54   it just makes me kind of sad, you know?

01:08:57   Because that was such a good promise,

01:09:00   such a good angle to say it's a subscription and you're gonna find all kinds of experiences.

01:09:08   And of course some of them are not addictive in a way that going to, you know, going to a museum

01:09:15   is not addictive as like watching, you know, reality television could be. Like, those are

01:09:21   different kinds of experiences and in life it's, you know, we have different kinds of experiences

01:09:26   And so in a arcade you could find the puzzle game, you know, the quip, like what's the name of those games like

01:09:33   Myke, you know, infinite clickers, like what's the name?

01:09:38   Yeah, you can get like the clicker games, there are like match three games

01:09:42   which grindstone is.

01:09:44   Super easy games that are perfect for mobile and I'm not criticizing those games because there's a place for those but also

01:09:52   there was a place for other types of stories and other types of games and now

01:09:56   it looks like there won't be anymore because there, you know, the retention for those is not good enough.

01:10:02   So it makes me sad because

01:10:05   it's, I just find it

01:10:08   artistically speaking kind of sad that a company is shutting down

01:10:12   potentially really good ideas

01:10:16   Especially now that, you know, with iOS and iPadOS 14, we're gonna have even deeper support

01:10:22   for controllers and even, you know, mouse and trackpad and keyboard support for gaming

01:10:28   on iPad.

01:10:30   Now those developers, you know, they will not be funded by Apple.

01:10:34   If they will want to make their game on the App Store, they will gonna have to go to traditional

01:10:39   route like set it for price on the App Store.

01:10:42   >> Or get a publisher.

01:10:44   >> Or get a publisher.

01:10:45   Right.

01:10:46   Right, but like, I will just say, these games already existed and you weren't interested in them, right?

01:10:54   So like, Apple's current crop, which include these games that you think are really awesome,

01:10:59   like, that was not enough to get you to keep your subscription.

01:11:03   And I think that's kind of...

01:11:05   Because they wouldn't come out anymore, because like, Beyond the Seal of Sky came out last week.

01:11:10   We both had the point of saying there's a backlog of games that we just never got to.

01:11:16   So the content was there, but I think it's just not grabbed either of us.

01:11:21   And speaking for myself, the only games that I have really truly enjoyed,

01:11:26   I think are the types of games that Apple would still fund, honestly.

01:11:29   All those ones that I mentioned, like What the Golf, and I really enjoyed Grindstone

01:11:37   and those types of games, I think that they fit with the type of stuff that they're talking about.

01:11:42   So I get the point that you're making, but I think if I was going to continue to offer

01:11:48   counterpoints, which I will, if people aren't playing them, you know, it's a business. It's

01:11:56   not a charity. The point that you made about comparing it to museums, I like that point,

01:12:04   But people weren't playing these games or Apple would not be making this move.

01:12:10   And it's not like that didn't try.

01:12:12   Like they made a tab in the App Store for these and put a ton of marketing behind it.

01:12:18   Like, I don't know how much more they could have done to try and get these games in front of people.

01:12:25   And it hasn't worked.

01:12:28   I don't know. Some things take time.

01:12:30   And I just think, you know, it doesn't even be in a year.

01:12:33   and now they're already pulling the plug on those because, you know, the numbers were not good enough.

01:12:39   I don't know, maybe, you know, maybe...

01:12:42   Look, it could be, right, like, they might come back to it.

01:12:46   Maybe this is an idealistic vision of we're just gonna keep funding them because it's good for the art of it.

01:12:54   And I get it, like, maybe it doesn't make sense.

01:12:56   Okay, so this part of Apple, they're not doing things for art right now, you know, like...

01:13:02   No art would exist. No art would exist if you looked at numbers. Like sometimes,

01:13:07   I don't know, you can make this some argument for music, right? But then again, Apple doesn't run a

01:13:12   music studio, so you know, you can be a musician and put up music even though, like, very few

01:13:18   people are going to listen to it, but you just do it because it's right. And now I get it. Apple is

01:13:23   in a very weird spot because they're not the promoters of art necessarily. They actually fund

01:13:29   it. They spend money on it. So they need to sell these subscriptions. Like this is the growth part

01:13:35   of their business is selling these subscriptions. Now like you know I think maybe Apple Arcade

01:13:45   is feeling the crunch more than Apple TV+ is, right? Because like they're both suffering from

01:13:54   the same problem which is neither TV+ or Arcade has had a runaway success, right?

01:13:59   But we haven't seen stories of Apple TV+ shows not being renewed, so Apple Arcade is

01:14:09   kind of feeling the brunt of this maybe a little bit more, or maybe the situation is much worse.

01:14:17   Yeah, I don't know. I just feel like having variety is always good. Maybe Apple is a lot more

01:14:24   strict about this than I thought they were. Look, there is also the thing that you must always

01:14:31   consider, right, is that the people who have told this story are the people that have had this told

01:14:40   to them. Right. Right. So yeah, of course. There could still be a selection of games,

01:14:46   which are the games that you want to see, coming to Apple Arcade. But maybe fewer of

01:14:51   them. Yeah, maybe fewer of them. I can understand that. That would actually make sense. Instead

01:14:56   of just saying... Yeah, like saying like, no, we're not going to do this, but like less

01:15:01   of these. And what we need is more games to drive the user base and keep people wanting...

01:15:07   There are a lot of other games that they have spoken about, like the ones that you've mentioned,

01:15:10   like Beyond a Steel Sky.

01:15:12   You complete it and you're done with it.

01:15:14   Now that's not a subscription service, right?

01:15:17   You need to have bingeable content, good, like this is the Netflix model, right?

01:15:22   Bingeable content, great back catalogue content that people want to keep coming back to.

01:15:26   So you need these almost like IAP games to get people really in on the system and have

01:15:33   this base of games that are considered good that you can play infinitely. And then also

01:15:39   have these narrative games to sit alongside it. And I don't think they found that balance

01:15:46   yet. And that's maybe what they are retooling to do. I do not deny that there are people

01:15:54   that have been told exactly what they have been told. But we can't say for sure right

01:16:01   now that this is the case for every developer of every game at Apple Arcade.

01:16:06   Yeah, I get it. Makes sense.

01:16:09   Like, okay, so Annapurna Interactive, who published Sayonara Wild Hearts, they obviously

01:16:14   loved that game and it did well for them because they gave it a design award. So if they want

01:16:19   to make Sayonara Wild Hearts 2, I bet Apple will fund that.

01:16:23   Right, I hope so.

01:16:26   You would expect so, right? Like, they liked it enough to award it. So, I don't know. I

01:16:31   don't know. It's difficult.

01:16:33   This story doesn't sit well with me because it reaches to this bigger idea that I really

01:16:42   dislike of creating anything art-related or content-related based on numbers. Because

01:16:52   Because if I live my life like that, I wouldn't publish the articles that I publish, because,

01:16:57   you know, some of them I'm really happy with, and they don't do really well.

01:17:00   All three of us here have podcast projects that we do, that make no money, but we do

01:17:06   them for fun.

01:17:07   Yeah.

01:17:08   So this idea, having to consider this for games and Apple Arcade, something that I was

01:17:13   so excited about, like, the principle of it makes me kind of sad.

01:17:20   I want to believe that maybe this happened and there's gonna be a shift but maybe Apple will be able to find that balance of

01:17:26   Yeah, we're gonna have you know more of those like types of games like grindstone

01:17:31   Like stuff like Sonic Racing, you know this kind of stuff that is very

01:17:36   consumer ready and we're gonna continue investing on some of these deeper and like more unique

01:17:45   unique experiences but fewer of those

01:17:48   But even if that is the way it goes, which is definitely our own manufactured best case scenario,

01:17:54   because that's not what this report says, that is still keeping true to the report,

01:18:00   which is saying that there has been a change in strategy, because there are games that they were

01:18:06   funding that they are no longer funding for these reasons. So there is a change, and I guess we'll

01:18:12   just have to hope that there'll still be a balance in the future. Steven, do you like games?

01:18:17   They're fine.

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01:19:55   There is a story going around based on some rumors that the next iPhone will not feature a charger

01:20:04   in the box. So I'll put a link in the show notes to an article on The Verge by Dieter

01:20:09   Bohn and also to a tweet thread from MKBHD. But I want to read Marques's tweets because

01:20:17   he summed up that he basically said there are two sides to this argument and I think that he

01:20:22   pitched them both perfectly and it's a good way to get into this conversation.

01:20:26   Reaction number one. Is this a joke? $1,000 for a phone and the most necessary accessory

01:20:32   is sold separately. Has a phone ever shipped with no charger in the box? This is a new

01:20:36   level of greed. Classic Apple about to make a lot of money creating a problem and selling

01:20:41   the solution. That would be take one.

01:20:45   Take two, reaction two, is good. Less e-waste at scale. Almost everyone has a charger already

01:20:51   anyway. If people want a faster wireless charger, they can still get one. Around 300,000 tonnes

01:20:58   of e-waste came from just inbox charges last year.

01:21:03   And that is a statistic taken from a Dieter Bohn's article, I think, which is basically

01:21:08   saying that there are people that don't need charges who get charges.

01:21:14   And if you think about the amount of time, effort, resources that are put into manufacturing

01:21:22   and shipping and then being discarded, it is a lot of waste.

01:21:26   So that is the setup to this.

01:21:28   I would like to ask you both, from a top level, what do you think about the idea of there

01:21:34   being no charger in the box with the next iPhone?

01:21:36   Yeah, I mean, it's kind of awkward, right?

01:21:40   That you buy something and it doesn't come with a charger.

01:21:43   I do, but I do understand the e-waste argument.

01:21:46   I think that angle makes a lot of sense.

01:21:48   And I honestly don't know how to feel about it because it, I don't know.

01:21:54   I just think it's a bit awkward having to explain why you buy it.

01:22:00   It doesn't have a charger inside, but I think it's one of those things that, if explained

01:22:04   well on stage, that it's good for the environment and that most people have duplicate and duplicate

01:22:10   chargers and that most people actually...

01:22:12   Like I know that I leave my old chargers in the box of each iPhone that I buy every year

01:22:17   because I already have my own charger.

01:22:21   So yeah, I always leave them in the box.

01:22:24   I don't use them, might as well not put them in there. I just think the principle of it

01:22:30   is kind of awkward, because if you do this you open yourself up to all kinds of criticisms,

01:22:35   especially if you're Apple and a lot of people already have some preconceived notions about

01:22:40   the company, like they're greedy and all this stuff costs too much, all the things that

01:22:45   people say. So maybe of all companies, Apple is in the worst position to do this, even

01:22:52   though the angle is right, I think they're going to catch a lot of criticism. Just like

01:22:56   when they did with the headphone jack. They were sort of right eventually, but they are,

01:23:05   you know, of all companies, they're going to have the toughest time justifying this.

01:23:09   Like Samsung could do it. And a lot of people would say, oh yeah, Samsung, great job for

01:23:13   the environment. You know, great argument. If Apple does it, they may be right and it

01:23:18   it could be the right angle, but because it's Apple, they're going to catch a lot of negative

01:23:23   press.

01:23:24   It will be the headline. Charger gate. And they could be doing like what I believe they

01:23:32   did with the headphone jack is like, so we spoke some time ago about a portless iPhone.

01:23:38   Maybe that's the next one. Maybe that's 13, maybe that's 14. They get rid of the charger

01:23:42   now for the portless iPhone in the future. But Steven, what do you think about this?

01:23:48   would you feel? I think Federica is right that even if their heart's in the right

01:23:52   place when they do this they already have the reputation for being stingy and

01:23:55   this is not going to help that. Now it's Apple's fault that that's their

01:24:00   reputation because they have been stingy, right? No one put them in that

01:24:05   corner, they put themselves in that corner. I was thinking about how do you

01:24:09   mitigate that? How do you do this? It's the right thing to do. Maybe it's you

01:24:15   have something in the box that's like hey we know talking about e-waste and

01:24:20   promoting the recycling program and saying look we don't put a power charger

01:24:23   in here anymore because of these issues and you know some people no matter what

01:24:30   they do some people will still lean on the side of apples being stingy but I

01:24:33   think there's ways you could get people kind of in the middle on your side so

01:24:36   some sort of messaging not only in the keynote but in the box on the box saying

01:24:41   "Look, this is why we've made this change."

01:24:44   There was another rumor that I think I saw last night

01:24:47   or today of the next iPhone box being super thin.

01:24:51   - Yeah, that's part of this.

01:24:54   - Right, 'cause it would take less fuel and plane space,

01:24:58   et cetera, to move these things around the world.

01:25:01   Apple, back in the iPod days,

01:25:03   when they were doing a new iPod refresh every year,

01:25:07   several times that came up, like,

01:25:08   "Look, the packaging is 42% smaller,

01:25:11   "so we can put more of them on planes."

01:25:13   They talk about that with MacBook Air boxes

01:25:15   and all sorts of stuff.

01:25:16   So you also have that to consider as well.

01:25:19   They can do this, but they've just gotta know,

01:25:22   they gotta know two things.

01:25:22   One, some people are just gonna be mad,

01:25:24   and that's just how it's gonna be.

01:25:26   But two, or B, I don't know if I said one or A.

01:25:29   The second point being,

01:25:31   is communicate it somehow to customers who don't pay--

01:25:32   - Another point. - Another point!

01:25:34   Communicate to customers

01:25:36   who aren't paying attention to the keynote.

01:25:38   Yeah, I think that there is also the possibility

01:25:41   of reducing the iPhone price a little,

01:25:44   saying that this is why, right, whether it is or it isn't.

01:25:47   But they may be able to reduce the iPhone price

01:25:50   while still keeping their margins,

01:25:51   and maybe even increasing their margins

01:25:53   if it's cheaper to produce these things,

01:25:56   cheaper to ship them, all that kind of stuff.

01:25:58   - I would go back to the previous argument

01:26:00   that Apple is stingy.

01:26:03   They're not gonna, I don't think they're gonna reduce

01:26:05   the price of the iPhone because of this.

01:26:06   They reduced, well, okay, but it might not be because of this.

01:26:09   They did reduce the price of the iPhone this last time.

01:26:12   They did.

01:26:13   So they could still do that.

01:26:16   They could make the iPhone thirty dollars cheaper for a million reasons.

01:26:19   But this could be one of them.

01:26:21   And they could also say this is the reason if they want to.

01:26:23   They could also and should also

01:26:27   make it a part of the buying process to easily add a charger.

01:26:32   Right. So like when you buy your iPhone,

01:26:36   say hey, they need to be cheaper, the chargers need to be cheaper if they're going to do this.

01:26:41   Chargers, Apple's chargers are way too expensive right now. If they're going to make it a

01:26:46   requirement, that crappy slow charger that they put in the box, they need to make it available on

01:26:53   the store for a cheaper price than it currently is. It needs to be a small cost to people if

01:26:59   they're going to do this. Because look, I bet that there is some statistic that tells them

01:27:05   the amount of people using those charges is going down, right?

01:27:10   More people were using wireless charges.

01:27:12   More people were using third party charges.

01:27:15   You know that they know those numbers.

01:27:17   And like,

01:27:18   I'm not saying that it's a small percentage of people that are using those

01:27:22   charges,

01:27:22   but if 97% of Apple's customers are using the charger that comes in the box,

01:27:28   this would be a really silly thing to do because you would have so many people

01:27:33   upset at you, right?

01:27:35   So like they must, I'm sure they must know that less people are,

01:27:38   and there must be a story for it now, right? Like it makes sense that there is a

01:27:42   strong potential that more and more people were using other charging options

01:27:47   than the one that comes in the box. Yeah. Right.

01:27:51   Cause you know, so many of their customers, it's not their first phone.

01:27:54   So many of their customers are using Qi. So many of their customers are using,

01:27:59   like, and again, if you are a third party manufacturer,

01:28:03   What a great opportunity for you, right?

01:28:05   Oh, yeah. Anchor. Oh, man.

01:28:07   Yeah, it's Christmas for them.

01:28:08   Like, if you sell a cheaper charger than Apple's one,

01:28:12   you are going to be rolling in it.

01:28:15   Talk about the opposite of antitrust, right?

01:28:17   Like, you are just having the greatest time.

01:28:21   So I personally, if they are going to do this, I would love

01:28:25   what I would love to see them say is like,

01:28:28   we're doing it for environmental reasons

01:28:31   and the iPhone is going to be a little bit cheaper this year.

01:28:33   Do I think that they will do both of those things?

01:28:36   No?

01:28:38   But that's what I would like to see.

01:28:42   But I don't know if it's the right thing to do because you're inviting the criticism.

01:28:47   But it will be way worse if they don't talk about it

01:28:51   and then people get that little piece of paper in the box.

01:28:55   That's a worse story. I'm almost convinced of that.

01:28:58   Because that has the ability of going viral, right?

01:29:02   Like that has more of, I feel, that kind of ability

01:29:05   than if they said upfront like, "Hey, we're doing this."

01:29:09   I think that that could end up being less

01:29:11   of a blowback situation.

01:29:13   - They gotta do all of that.

01:29:14   They have to tell people as much as they can

01:29:18   before they get the phone in their hands,

01:29:19   that it's the case.

01:29:20   Keynote, I love your idea about having on the checkout page,

01:29:23   you could even have, look, if you want a five watt charger,

01:29:26   it's really slow, but it's this much,

01:29:28   and then that you can always upsell--

01:29:29   - It's $15. - Yeah.

01:29:30   You can always upsell to the faster charger.

01:29:32   Like I don't use a 15 watt charger for any,

01:29:34   or anything anymore, a five watt charger, excuse me.

01:29:37   I'm all in on faster charging.

01:29:39   And I think a lot of people don't even know

01:29:41   faster charging is a thing.

01:29:42   Like I agree with you that a lot of people

01:29:44   will probably just leave them in the box,

01:29:46   but I think they're leaving them in the box

01:29:47   because they're using an old five watt charger.

01:29:49   - Yeah.

01:29:50   - So yeah, you can tell them, hey look,

01:29:51   if you do this one, it's 30 bucks,

01:29:52   but you can charge in half the time,

01:29:54   then you've had an upsell.

01:29:56   And Apple loves an upsell.

01:29:57   - Like at the moment, a cable is $19.

01:30:02   And the 18 watt charger is $29.

01:30:06   Yeah that's way too much and those Apple cables and chargers are not really great.

01:30:11   And the 5 watt charger is $19.

01:30:14   Yeah that's... no. Just no.

01:30:17   If you're gonna do this you gotta make a better option.

01:30:21   That's not worth... that 5 watt charger is not worth $20.

01:30:25   Even if you offer a one-time discount at purchase, right, that you can get the whole thing for 15

01:30:34   bucks instead of like 35, I think that might go a long way as well. And like, if you want to charge

01:30:41   people more for extra options, you can go for that. But my favorite meme that I saw about this was

01:30:48   everyone was asking Apple for a faster charger put in the box and instead they just take the charger

01:30:53   way. Which is an incredibly Apple move to do and we can make that joke because it goes

01:31:03   into the idea of them being like that kind of company. They make these decisions and

01:31:09   we can call it courage and many people will, right? Bring that old joke back again. But

01:31:15   I think there are this one, this is a story I can get on board with way easier than the

01:31:20   headphone jack removal. The headphone jack didn't change the environment. It doesn't

01:31:25   affect any environment. But I can buy that. I genuinely can buy that. They can have whatever

01:31:31   reason they want to have for why they do it, but if they say it's because we want to reduce

01:31:35   this waste, that is a cause and effect type thing I will accept personally. Other people

01:31:41   may or may not, but I never really felt like there was a good reason given for why the

01:31:46   headphone jack went away but this is a like a we've done this why have we done

01:31:51   this because we want to be but we want to continue our commitment to the

01:31:56   environment okay I don't know what they're gonna do this could be like a

01:32:00   little flash-in-the-pan story that go out hand or it could be true but I think

01:32:05   the reason that it has gained some steam is because it's very conceivable to

01:32:10   imagine that this is going on could go on I think that's it yep if you

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01:33:08   Until next week, gentlemen, say goodbye.

01:33:10   I'll be there too.

01:33:11   Cheerio.