295: Another Italian Interjected


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:15   Software, firmware, situation, update.

00:00:18   [Music]

00:00:23   Steven Hackett, Myke Federica, connected.

00:00:27   Hello, what's up? What's up? How are you? Pretty patient, polite. What are you doing?

00:00:47   No. I don't care.

00:00:48   Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

00:00:48   Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

00:01:18   by our friend Federico Vatici. What's up? Hey buddy. Hi. Hi, how are you? I'm pretty

00:01:25   good. It's good information to know. Pretty good. Yeah. We have some follow-up and we

00:01:32   should start with the music you heard at the beginning of the show. It was a little bit

00:01:36   different this week. Myke, do you want to explain what we played as our intro? Last

00:01:40   week on the show, well after the show, which by the way you can listen live, we recorded

00:01:46   this show live, what time is it in America? It is 1 p.m. Eastern. 1 p.m. Eastern or 6

00:01:53   p.m. in London, 7 p.m. in Rome. We record every week on Wednesdays. You can listen live

00:02:01   at relay.fm/live or even better you can listen live directly in the Relay FM members Discord.

00:02:07   So if you're a Relay FM member you can listen and chat along as we go. And we were looking

00:02:12   at our titles as we do every week because our listeners suggest titles and then we pick

00:02:15   from one. And we liked the title of last week's episode, which was, what was it called?

00:02:22   Software Firmware Situation Update.

00:02:24   There you go. Software Firmware Situation Update. Where that was just a sentence that

00:02:28   Stephen said. He said during the show, "Software Firmware Situation Update."

00:02:31   It's not really a... Calling that a sentence is nice to me.

00:02:34   Well, you just said it. Like, you know, okay, you said it's like, "The Software Firmware

00:02:38   Situation Update." Or something like that, right? And when it was written down as a title,

00:02:43   of us thought, I don't remember who thought it looked funny because it looked like the

00:02:50   Daft Punk song, "Stronger, Better, Faster, Something." What was that song called? I'm

00:02:56   terrible at this today. This shouldn't have been given to me.

00:02:58   "Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger." Thank you. "Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger."

00:03:01   You didn't have your coffee today, did you? I just had it, so it's yet to kick.

00:03:05   Oh, yeah. Also, it's going to be fun in 10 minutes over here.

00:03:08   In about 15 minutes or so. 15? Okay.

00:03:10   The Japes will return, right? But we've got to wait for that.

00:03:13   So we were making fun of the fact that it looked like the Daft Punk song.

00:03:17   So that was why we titled the episode with the commas.

00:03:20   We added the commas and then Carter

00:03:23   created the musical version

00:03:26   of that title with some additional clips in it as well.

00:03:30   So that was very good.

00:03:31   I'll put a link in the show notes to Carter's creation

00:03:33   in case you want to check it out for yourself.

00:03:35   Maybe download it as a ringtone or something. I don't know.

00:03:38   Yeah, it's a very, very, very good remix.

00:03:40   We, we thoroughly, uh, encourage all kinds of, uh, fan artwork, creations and music

00:03:48   creations.

00:03:49   Yeah.

00:03:49   Tattoos, whatever.

00:03:50   Fanfiction.

00:03:52   If that's your thing, you know, if you want to, if you want to do that, you can

00:03:56   connect to the fanfiction.

00:03:57   Yeah.

00:03:57   Yeah.

00:03:58   Whatever, man.

00:03:59   There's going to be a lot of, uh, muting from me today because I'm using a

00:04:02   mechanical keyboard because yesterday, uh, I was on a zoom call and I want to explain

00:04:07   to you kind of how I have my general… Where is this going? How can we talk from fan fiction

00:04:12   to mechanical… Well because I just typed something very quickly to put into the show

00:04:16   notes and I'm concerned that it might make a noise because I was on a Zoom call yesterday.

00:04:21   It was like one of those like not a meeting but like a more hangout-y Zoom call, right?

00:04:25   You know? Yeah. And it was encouraged that like, you know, this is cool. So like, you

00:04:29   know, we're all hanging out so maybe bring a beer. So I had a beer with me and where

00:04:34   sitting right now, I have my notebook in front of me, my keyboard behind that, then I have my mouse

00:04:41   and my trackpad to the right, and then I have two coasters to the right of that. At the moment is my

00:04:45   empty coffee cup, which by the way it's happening right now, I'm feeling it kicking, and my bottle

00:04:51   of water, they sit on the coasters. And I thought to myself, I want to be sipping from the beer more,

00:04:55   so I'm going to bring the coaster to the left of the mouse and put the beer on it. So I did that.

00:05:01   20 seconds later, I knocked the beer into my keyboard.

00:05:04   Like it was I put it down.

00:05:06   I moved my arm. I moved my back, moved it back, and it just went everywhere.

00:05:10   So it filled the keyboard with beer and then picked up the keyboard.

00:05:14   Then the beer spilled on me.

00:05:16   This is all happening while on a video call.

00:05:18   I'm trying to pretend like nothing's going on.

00:05:20   It's like a whole big thing.

00:05:21   So I have now ordered another Microsoft sculpt ergonomic keyboard.

00:05:24   That thing saw about six years of use.

00:05:26   So, you know, it was kind of getting to the point that like

00:05:29   it needed to be replaced because it was gross. You know how keyboards just get gross over

00:05:33   time? So I have today the Keychron K6, which is a mechanical keyboard in front of me.

00:05:39   Let's hear it. Let's hear it. Put the mic down to it.

00:05:42   Okay.

00:05:43   [Mute sounds]

00:05:49   Pretty good.

00:05:50   Yep. So there's going to be a lot of muting from me today as I have things to show notes

00:05:54   so you don't have to edit me out.

00:05:56   Oh, you forget that I strip silence. It won't be a problem.

00:05:58   Oh, well then I'm gonna go wild then.

00:06:01   I still don't understand fully. So you just hang out on Zoom and you drink in front of

00:06:04   other people on Zoom?

00:06:05   No, it was like a collection of people getting together to talk about topics. It was like

00:06:13   we would have had dinner.

00:06:14   That's a podcast.

00:06:15   No, we, okay, so this particular group of people, we would have been having dinner together,

00:06:20   but we can't do that, right?

00:06:21   Is it like a town hall meeting?

00:06:23   Let's call it. I mean, if that's going to help you so we can move on, then yes, it was

00:06:28   a town hall meeting. I just need to visualize what is the purpose of this call. I can't

00:06:35   say right now, I'll tell you later. Wait, were you on Chatroulette? Can you imagine?

00:06:42   I wonder if that's happening, I mean that's gotta be happening right? So you had a town

00:06:45   hall on Zoom and you were drinking beer and you spilled beer all over the place. Into

00:06:49   a keyboard, yeah. So now that keyboard is dead and I have a mechanical keyboard in front

00:06:55   would be now which makes more noise. And what do you think is your lesson there? Not to

00:06:59   do these town halls on Zoom anymore or not to drink during Zoom calls? No, just don't

00:07:02   disrupt my very clearly internalized layout of my desk. Because by moving the beer, I

00:07:08   knocked it over immediately. So I just need to keep the beer on the coaster where the

00:07:13   coaster lives. Don't move it, you know? That's what I've learned. The lessons don't be like

00:07:18   Casey. That's a lesson for the ages. I learned that one a long time ago. It's completely

00:07:22   related to any water-based thing. Okay. So there you go. But still, why did fanfiction

00:07:33   make you think of this? Oh, it didn't. As I said fanfiction, I typed something and then

00:07:39   was like "Oh no, you can hear that!" Oh, okay. I was still waiting for the punchline, I guess.

00:07:45   They were completely unrelated except to me. In my life they were related because I was

00:07:51   whilst talking adding something to the show notes which made noise.

00:07:54   Now you understand, now you understand, thank you.

00:07:57   I appreciate that you understand. I'm surprised that you do but I'm also happy.

00:08:02   I was thinking about some of our past titles of our show and thinking about which ones

00:08:07   would make good fan fiction. I think 287 wins, Rub-a-Dub-Dub my friend. Just saying, that's

00:08:12   probably the place to start. Geez, Steven, that was not... that was...

00:08:17   Wow, all right, cool. So send, if you do write anything, please send it by email to stephen@relay.fm.

00:08:27   That's with a "ph".

00:08:29   Poor Stephen.

00:08:31   He'll definitely circulate it to us. If you send it to me in Federico, it will just get

00:08:38   eaten up by our spam filters. You have to send it to Stephen and then he can share it.

00:08:43   You know what happened to me a few weeks ago?

00:08:46   I don't know.

00:08:49   And I'm trying very hard to think of a way to phrase this that doesn't make me sound

00:08:54   like a jerk.

00:08:55   However...

00:08:56   This is gonna be great.

00:08:57   Whatever this is, it's gonna be great.

00:08:59   Please carry on.

00:09:01   So how can I say this?

00:09:03   You clearly can't, so you may as well just say it.

00:09:06   Just say it as it is.

00:09:07   I get a lot of mentions on Twitter every day.

00:09:09   Oh, look at me.

00:09:11   No, I know. What happens?

00:09:13   I have 60,000 followers!

00:09:15   People want to just talk to me all the time!

00:09:18   You cannot have a conversation with this too, it's impossible.

00:09:21   So I get a lot of mentions every day and I also try as much as possible to stay away from Twitter and actually write or work on my shortcuts.

00:09:32   So you want to stay away from the people that want to talk to you is what you're saying?

00:09:36   No, I appreciate that people want to talk to me.

00:09:39   However, I'm trying to limit my social networking time

00:09:42   because I know that if I open Twitter,

00:09:44   I'm gonna end up spending like three hours

00:09:46   just browsing Twitter and responding to people.

00:09:49   And while I do appreciate the fact

00:09:50   that people get in touch with me, I need to be selective.

00:09:53   So usually like when, like there's a lot of folks

00:09:58   who use Twitter as tech support,

00:10:00   even though I am not Apple's tech support,

00:10:03   but just people ask you like technical things like,

00:10:05   "Hey, do you know why my MacBook will no longer work with this cable?"

00:10:11   And what do I know about your MacBook and the cables that you have?

00:10:14   Like, ask Apple, because that's why you buy your computer.

00:10:17   Anyway, I guess that there are some people who are upset that,

00:10:21   in the past, I may have not replied to them on Twitter.

00:10:28   And so a few weeks ago, I saw a person ask me something in Italian on Twitter.

00:10:37   And another Italian interjected in that conversation and basically said something

00:10:42   along the lines of "Good luck getting an answer from him because he never replies to anybody."

00:10:46   And that really annoyed me. So just out of spite, I did reply to that person, including the second

00:10:54   guy, even though normally I wouldn't ever reply to that person.

00:10:57   I'm not really sure what lesson you could have learned from this.

00:11:04   Oh there's no lesson, I'm just a horrible person.

00:11:07   So I guess what I want to know is, what has that got to do with what we were just talking about?

00:11:13   So it's just the same question.

00:11:16   Yes, that because you said if you email Federico and me, you were basically never gonna see it.

00:11:22   And that made me think of what happens when people send me tweets.

00:11:26   Like me, I'm assuming.

00:11:28   I just want to say though, I do go through my mentions every night.

00:11:32   So at least once a day, I sit down and I open my mentions.

00:11:36   If I don't reply, it's because I know that if I reply, it's going to become a whole thing.

00:11:41   And I'd rather disappoint people at the beginning rather than during an ongoing conversation.

00:11:46   Right. Okay.

00:11:48   Because then I'm gonna reply and then I know, like you get the sense that some tweets, if you engage, if you reply, you just know that it's gonna become a whole thing.

00:11:57   Because like, people are like, "Oh, now that I have your attention, I actually have three more problems for you to solve."

00:12:04   And so I would rather disappoint them once at the very beginning of this stage rather than after getting their hopes up.

00:12:11   Hmm.

00:12:12   Does it make sense? I know that it makes me sound like a jerk.

00:12:15   What I will say is this is definitely a thing that I can understand your feeling.

00:12:21   Okay, thank you.

00:12:22   I don't want to say one way or another what I do here. What I will say, for me in general,

00:12:31   I much prefer tweets to emails, you know? Like if somebody wants to ask me a question

00:12:37   or get like some advice on something, tweets are so much better than emails.

00:12:44   Oh yeah, oh yeah, for sure they are. DMs could be, I don't know.

00:12:53   I would like to just state this is long-term follow-up, right? So I opened my DMs many,

00:12:58   many, many weeks ago. As of right now, there hasn't really been any benefit to it. You

00:13:06   know, like you guys talk about like, "Oh, sometimes I get like a thing." I have had

00:13:09   nothing which has been particularly useful. What has happened mostly is

00:13:17   exactly what I thought would happen, which is people send me DMs for things

00:13:21   that should be replies. That's because you haven't... the people out there

00:13:27   can feel that you haven't opened yourself up to the idea of receiving

00:13:31   something potentially interesting. It's like something like

00:13:36   like karma. Like as soon as you accept it, you know it's gonna happen. You have to embrace

00:13:42   the idea and when you do, you will start receiving interesting DMs.

00:13:46   There's actually now, I'm looking at my DMs now, there's more interesting stuff in the

00:13:51   additional messages area, which I think is what they filter out and don't show you.

00:13:56   That's what we've been talking about all along.

00:13:58   No, no, no, no, no. So you've got messages, message requests, and at the very bottom,

00:14:04   additional messages including those that may contain offensive content. I haven't found

00:14:08   any offensive... Oh, did you prefer the ones with offensive content? There's no offensive

00:14:12   content in any of them, but they're more interesting. Why are they filtered out? Oh, no, here's

00:14:18   an offensive one. That's fine. I was wrong. Oh, they're in here. Oh, no! And close the

00:14:24   tab goodbye. Let's move on with the show. I'm here to save you. Last week I spoke about

00:14:30   the current gate of iPhones that's sweeping the nation. I'm very happy to tell you that

00:14:36   our numbers have swelled. I'm up to five people reporting that sometimes their iPhone screens

00:14:41   look a little green.

00:14:43   Why is nobody talking about this?

00:14:44   Why is no one talking about this?

00:14:45   I can't believe nobody's talking about this.

00:14:46   I can't believe it.

00:14:47   Yeah.

00:14:48   Five people.

00:14:49   Uh, congrats?

00:14:50   It's a movement, man. Sweeping the nation.

00:14:54   Oh, okay.

00:14:55   Cool. Very exciting. Thank you.

00:14:57   Good luck.

00:14:58   Good luck with your class action lawsuit. Yeah, well, it's a you know it's like a small group

00:15:04   Action now not a full class

00:15:07   Sure yeah like a lunch table action suit

00:15:11   Like a zoom call

00:15:15   Yeah, oh no my beer. Yeah, you gotta be we've got to be careful with those boys

00:15:19   Yeah, I think they could turn nasty real fast all right Myke tell us about your new watch band

00:15:23   I bought the Nike pride watch band because I thought it looked super cool. I also have it

00:15:28   It's not just Myke's new watch band, I also have it right now.

00:15:31   All right, when did you get yours?

00:15:32   You got it before, so it's technically Myke's.

00:15:36   There you go, I got it yesterday.

00:15:37   And as of recording, like right now is the first time I've been able to set the

00:15:42   rainbow watch faces. They have some pride faces and some rainbow colors

00:15:48   being added to existing faces like the California dial and stuff.

00:15:52   There's two pride bands, they're both sport bands this year.

00:15:57   like the the rubber ones what does apple call them like poly something something something

00:16:02   polymer i don't know they got it they give it a different name they don't call it rubber do they

00:16:07   write the sport bands i don't remember now but um florilastomer there you go florilastomer that's

00:16:13   it florilastomer get a little bit lost in the middle i was about to say polyamorous but that's

00:16:17   a different thing that's a different thing it's not at all related um but uh oh man you've lost

00:16:26   me now. But they added... oh geez there's two bands. One is like the typical pride flag,

00:16:37   right? Like the rainbow pride flag in stripes. And the other one is a white Nike sport band

00:16:44   with the pride flag colors inside the holes that are in the band. Now I really like this one

00:16:50   because I have the white ceramic edition watch and I've always worn my Apple watch with just the

00:16:58   white band that it came with because I think that pairing was really nice but this was like another

00:17:02   one was like oh that's a good pairing right like that still white which I like and it adds some

00:17:06   color and I'm currently setting up the California watch face which is the one that I use with the

00:17:12   rainbow um like the rainbow option so for the hands or another rainbow color so I think it

00:17:18   it looks really cool. I like that they continue to do this, but I like that what Apple does

00:17:25   is they make a new one every year or whatever. Like I think that's a nice way to do it rather

00:17:28   than just doing the same thing. I've had some trouble trying to get watchOS and iOS to understand

00:17:35   that they have this watch face capability. There seems to have been like some weirdness,

00:17:38   like watchOS came out first and it had some of the options and not all of them. It's very

00:17:44   peculiar, but I guess it will work eventually.

00:17:47   So the one, the pride watch face that I'm playing around with now, this one is from

00:17:52   last year, right?

00:17:54   You can spin the digital crown and there's like these colored threads that like jump

00:18:00   around as you spin the crown.

00:18:02   This is from last year.

00:18:03   Yeah, yeah.

00:18:05   There was a few different ones.

00:18:06   Has anybody talked about how awesome this watch face is?

00:18:09   Probably last year, yeah.

00:18:10   Mmm, you sure?

00:18:12   Can I have a brief segment?

00:18:14   I'm still spinning the crown, by the way.

00:18:16   Can we have a brief, can I have a brief, just a quick comment on, and again, I don't know

00:18:21   why I keep choosing these topics that make me sound like a jerk today, but how bad the

00:18:27   situation is for those who have multiple Apple Watches when it comes to updating them.

00:18:32   I'm so sorry.

00:18:33   I left my violin in the studio, otherwise I would play it for you right now.

00:18:40   So as somebody who literally has a day watch and a night watch, I'm here to tell you that

00:18:48   updating them is a nightmare.

00:18:51   Updating all Apple watches is bad.

00:18:52   So updating all Apple watches is bad.

00:18:55   It's gotten better through the years if you have like a single Apple watch because you

00:19:00   have the notifications and you can start the update on the watch itself and there's like

00:19:04   multiple reminders.

00:19:06   Like it used to be very very very bad, now it's just very bad.

00:19:11   So there's been some progress there.

00:19:14   But if you have multiple Apple Watches it's just so annoying that it's one of those things

00:19:18   that I keep pushing, like I just keep ignoring until it's become impossible for me to keep

00:19:28   ignoring it basically.

00:19:30   What I don't like about the Apple Watch updating thing is that if something happens and you

00:19:35   knock the watch off the charger you will break the Apple watch right like that's

00:19:39   so scary to me is like an update thing that I get I kind of put it off for that

00:19:44   reason because I have my watch in a like in a charger that puts it on its side

00:19:49   and sometimes I don't know why like the connection will break between them like

00:19:54   it stops charging and so when I'm updating it I'm like terrified that it's

00:19:59   going to fall off the charger because then I will need to take my Apple watch

00:20:06   to an Apple store and that's not a thing I can actually do right you know what

00:20:09   the trick is with that cuz I have the same problem it's to basically tighten

00:20:13   the band around the stand so it's like stuck to it I'll try that that's a good

00:20:21   tip I'll try that yeah still anyway if you have multiple Apple watches well two

00:20:26   of them, I guess. Is two of them the limit? I don't know. So anyway, there's this option in

00:20:31   settings in the watch app for the iPhone that is called automatic pairing, and the idea would be

00:20:37   that when you take the first watch off your wrist and you put on the other, the iPhone automatically

00:20:43   switches between them. The problem there is that if you leave automatic pairing on, and by all

00:20:50   intents and purposes you do want to leave it on. If you start the software update, right, for

00:20:57   watch A, and you reach the point where it tells you this needs to be on the charger,

00:21:04   you put it on the charger, and at that point I assume you're going to be taking watch B and put

00:21:09   it on your wrist, because if you're a multi-watch person you always want to have a watch on you.

00:21:14   But when you put the second watch on your wrist, automatic pairing kicks in and says "oh, well,

00:21:20   "Oopsie, now this iPhone is paired with the second watch, I guess we can all forget about the software update for the other watch."

00:21:25   And so what happens there is that every time I have to update the watch, I need to disable automatic pairing,

00:21:32   complete the software update process for the watch, without wearing the second watch,

00:21:37   wait for the whole thing to finish, which can take hours. Like, I don't know why, but updating the Apple Watch software, like,

00:21:44   you know, might as well go back to Viterbo and see my mom and come back home and it's still going.

00:21:49   And then when it's done, I need to unlock the watch, re-enable automatic pairing, and

00:21:58   put on the second watch, go check for updates, and do the whole thing again.

00:22:04   Disable automatic pairing, and stuff.

00:22:05   So basically I need to book a full afternoon just to do the software update on the watch.

00:22:11   And it's like, I mean, unless there's a major new feature, I'm just gonna leave it on the

00:22:15   old version.

00:22:16   Yeah, I mean I guess at this point because the new watch faces they look kind of nice I

00:22:21   Am gonna be doing it

00:22:23   but I you know I'll have to put in a task in my task manager and everything because it's gonna be a whole thing so

00:22:30   basically what I'm asking is for

00:22:33   watch OS team try and think of you know that many many of us who have multiple Apple watches and

00:22:40   Try and make the installation the software update process a bit easier

00:22:44   I don't understand why the Apple Watch has to be on the charger to be updated.

00:22:50   I know right? Why?

00:22:52   No other device that I own needs that.

00:22:55   I don't know.

00:22:56   Right? Like I understand that devices need like a certain battery limit, you know, so like it's got to be 50% or whatever.

00:23:03   Right.

00:23:04   But the Apple Watch is the only device that I have that requires itself to be currently charging while updating.

00:23:12   And I just find that to be very peculiar.

00:23:15   So, the latest version is 6.2.5, is that correct?

00:23:20   That is correct.

00:23:21   Okay, cool. I will be scheduling a software update session for some time this weekend.

00:23:27   Hopefully.

00:23:29   Good luck. Good luck, sir.

00:23:31   Thank you. Thank you, mate.

00:23:32   Maybe while you're doing that you could reply to tweets.

00:23:34   Yeah.

00:23:36   Yeah, I guess I have to.

00:23:38   Seems like you could put them both in, shed them, you know, it's like update and tweet time.

00:23:42   I used to have a...

00:23:43   So if you get a reply from Federico over the weekend, you know he's updating ZappaWatch.

00:23:48   I used to have a recurring task in Reminders years ago that said reply to tweets.

00:23:54   That's a terrible task.

00:23:55   I know, I know, it just made me so stressed.

00:23:57   But you like to be, you know, connected with the people, I suppose.

00:24:01   I do like, and I, like, again, this makes me sound worse than I actually am as a person,

00:24:06   I think. But I do love the fact that I have people... It would be a problem if I had nobody,

00:24:14   you know, interested in talking to me. So I'm not complaining. It's just that also it

00:24:19   is true that the volume of all those tweets sometimes gets out of hand. That's all I'm

00:24:24   saying. And also people follow me because I write. If I spend my whole day replying

00:24:30   to emails and writing tweets, I wouldn't be writing anymore. Therefore, I'm actually doing

00:24:36   them a favor. You keep justifying it. Yeah, yeah, that's good. Is there any more or are

00:24:41   we good now? No, I'm done. Okay, we'll see. Maybe you'll come up with another one. Sure.

00:24:46   As the episode goes on. Let's take a break. This episode of Connected is brought to you

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00:26:10   Before we go on, I have like a nosebleed.

00:26:13   Can you give me like five minutes?

00:26:15   - Yeah, you should go handle that.

00:26:16   - It's not bad.

00:26:18   I'm just gonna get a tissue.

00:26:18   - It's the first time that's ever happened

00:26:20   that I've been on recording with somebody

00:26:22   and then they started bleeding. - It's not like bad.

00:26:23   I'm just gonna get a tissue, so.

00:26:25   - Go deal with it.

00:26:25   I don't know why you're still here.

00:26:26   - Yes, don't worry about it. - I'll be back.

00:26:28   I wanna talk about OpenDoc, don't start without me.

00:26:29   - Yes, don't bleed all over your keyboard.

00:26:31   He's like, "What is wrong if you just leave?"

00:26:33   Like, he's just gonna stay around to make jokes.

00:26:35   It just kept talking.

00:26:36   There's a hierarchy.

00:26:37   Nosebleed comes before jokes.

00:26:40   We all know that.

00:26:41   That phrase.

00:26:42   Nose before jokes.

00:26:42   [LAUGHTER]

00:26:45   No.

00:26:47   I like that.

00:26:48   Nose before jokes.

00:26:50   Yeah.

00:26:50   So the chat room is going wild.

00:26:54   Which chat room are you in, the Discord?

00:26:56   I'm in the-- well, yes.

00:26:59   The Discord is where it's at.

00:27:00   They're all going wild in here.

00:27:01   I am in all places and nowhere at the same time.

00:27:07   Oh, yeah, especially on Twitter, right?

00:27:11   It's like I'm Schrodinger-ing myself.

00:27:15   I exist and I do not exist at the same time.

00:27:19   Oh, this is fun.

00:27:20   I just opened up Twitter because they're doing that people--

00:27:23   they got that new thing, right?

00:27:25   And Sarah Dietschy just tweeted, "Welcome to the exclusive club

00:27:29   the 858 people I follow. So that's kind of funny, right? Like you can just make tweets

00:27:34   and they're just like little clubs amongst only the people that you've deemed to be able

00:27:38   to respond to you. I also see this tweet because she follows me. Well no, everyone can see

00:27:44   it, but only people that she follows can reply to it, right? I don't have that feature yet,

00:27:51   but I think that is a really good feature. You should just do all of your tweets that

00:27:54   way and then no one will reply to you. So now I can tweet things. You can tweet things

00:28:01   and only and you can set it, well if you are in the beta rollout that they're doing. I'm

00:28:09   here. You doing okay over there? Yeah it's not bad. I wonder what's caused it. I don't

00:28:13   know. My allergies have been bothering me this week. I don't know if it's like. Does

00:28:17   it, does that a thing? I don't know. Nose is scratchy. So you can now choose between

00:28:23   everyone can reply, people you follow or only people that you mention in a tweet.

00:28:28   If you're in part of this beta that they test that they're doing.

00:28:32   Oh yeah.

00:28:32   Where would the control be for that?

00:28:37   It's just in the tweet compose window.

00:28:40   Yeah, I don't have it.

00:28:41   Yeah, I don't have it either. But I think that's a really cool feature.

00:28:44   Like I will finally be able to tweet all of my controversial opinions again

00:28:49   and just lock them down, you know?

00:28:51   Hmm.

00:28:51   This would be great.

00:28:52   But will third party clients see them?

00:28:55   I don't know.

00:28:57   Yeah.

00:28:58   I don't know what happens with those.

00:29:00   If it's the API level, maybe...

00:29:01   they could just block them? I don't know.

00:29:04   Maybe they could just block them.

00:29:06   Hmm.

00:29:08   Sorry guys, this is very weird.

00:29:12   Hey, don't apologize.

00:29:13   Your nose is bleeding.

00:29:14   My body's falling apart.

00:29:15   Yeah.

00:29:16   ♫ Your nose is bleeding ♫

00:29:18   Was that a rough party song, Myke?

00:29:22   Was it a block party song?

00:29:23   And your nose is bleeding, doo doo doo doo doo

00:29:26   And your nose is...

00:29:26   Luna from Block Party, maybe?

00:29:28   I don't know.

00:29:29   Yeah, I think it's Luna.

00:29:30   So, Tweetbot can see those tweets?

00:29:34   Right? So like it doesn't hide the tweets of people that are using the feature,

00:29:38   but I don't know if...

00:29:41   Like you're blocked from replying to them, maybe?

00:29:43   I don't know. I don't want to test it.

00:29:45   You know?

00:29:47   Like I can see a tweet that I could reply to,

00:29:49   But I think it would be kind of weird if I just then started replying to the tweet

00:29:52   so

00:29:55   We'll find out

00:29:57   All right, let's see if this holds together

00:30:01   Do you mean you yeah, okay. Yeah, see if this thing can hold together. Yeah

00:30:08   There's a lot of people listening live. Oh, yeah. Yeah, they just like that list is long. Oh, yeah in

00:30:16   - All right, Federico, do you want to start this one?

00:30:18   - All right, so yesterday,

00:30:20   Microsoft had some kind of event.

00:30:23   What's it called, Microsoft Build?

00:30:24   The annual, like the-- - The developer.

00:30:28   - Yeah, by Microsoft, and one of the many announcements,

00:30:32   so they announced the new Windows Terminal,

00:30:34   like a bunch of things,

00:30:35   but I want to talk about this Fluid Office,

00:30:38   Fluid Framework, and specifically applied,

00:30:42   in this case, we got a demo of the Fluid Framework

00:30:45   from Microsoft in the Office apps and Outlook.

00:30:48   So I saw this story on The Verge

00:30:49   and I read the article on The Verge.

00:30:51   And my first reaction was, oh, this is cool.

00:30:55   And I saved the article for yesterday.

00:30:58   I wanted to read it today before the show, and I did.

00:31:01   And as soon as I started reading the story,

00:31:04   as soon as, basically, the moment I started reading

00:31:08   the first paragraph, a single word started sort of like,

00:31:14   instead of visualizing this word in front of my eyes,

00:31:17   and that word is "open dock."

00:31:19   Now, I was not around to remember, you know,

00:31:23   I'm not old enough to know what open dock was

00:31:26   when it came out, but Steven, I believe, if he wasn't,

00:31:29   I mean, did you actually ever use open dock, Steven?

00:31:34   - I know what it is.

00:31:35   In fact, when you said, this reminds me of open dock,

00:31:37   it was like a light came down from heaven

00:31:41   and illuminated just me as like,

00:31:42   I'm the perfect person to talk about this.

00:31:44   I was not using the Mac in the OpenDoc days,

00:31:48   but I do know quite a bit about it.

00:31:49   And so I went into my dev and think database

00:31:52   and searched OpenDoc.

00:31:53   And I've put some notes together for y'all

00:31:56   I'd like to share.

00:31:56   - Of course you had it in there.

00:31:58   - Of course I did.

00:31:59   There's actually an OpenDoc group now.

00:32:01   'Cause I was like, oh, this should be together.

00:32:02   So it's a lot of OpenDoc stuff to talk about.

00:32:06   So you're totally right that this idea

00:32:11   that they were showing off is reminiscent of OpenDoc.

00:32:15   So maybe do you wanna talk a little bit

00:32:16   about what they showed off and then I can explain OpenDoc

00:32:18   and then we can compare them?

00:32:20   - Sure, so what they showed off,

00:32:22   and I'm gonna simplify here because that article,

00:32:25   they have some quotes from Microsoft

00:32:27   and if you actually go watch some of the promo videos

00:32:29   from Microsoft, they are, I don't wanna say like

00:32:32   concept videos because the feature is working

00:32:34   and we do get some footage out of the fluid framework

00:32:38   in practice, but the way that it's presented

00:32:41   and the way that it's shown off in most of the promo videos,

00:32:45   it's very marketing heavy and not so much focused

00:32:50   on the practicality of it.

00:32:52   But from what I've seen, the idea is the following.

00:32:55   So with the Fluid framework,

00:32:57   Office apps will start taking advantage of Microsoft,

00:33:04   the Verge is referring to them as Lego blocks, basically,

00:33:09   but they're also officially called fluid elements.

00:33:12   Think about the functionality of each Office app

00:33:17   as an individual standalone element.

00:33:21   So the word processor is made of a text field,

00:33:25   and in Excel you have a table,

00:33:30   or maybe you have a chart,

00:33:32   or maybe in Word you have a picture

00:33:35   to go alongside your text.

00:33:37   and maybe in power and of course in powerpoint you have slides. Now all of these elements, rather

00:33:42   than being features of a specific application, they can become embeddable objects. And the idea

00:33:51   would be that with the fluid framework, rather than being limited to using like these apps as

00:33:56   silos to get your work done, you can end up in a scenario where in your email client,

00:34:05   in this case Outlook, you may have a table, a spreadsheet, that you can edit

00:34:11   right there inside the email client. So each element becomes its own module that can be embedded

00:34:19   regardless of the application that you're using. So Outlook could embed a live version of a

00:34:26   spreadsheet, and maybe a spreadsheet could embed a live version of your task manager

00:34:34   list, or Word could have a table and a presentation inside of it.

00:34:40   And Microsoft is presenting this, again, this idea of fluidity between applications,

00:34:47   the ability to embed these elements in different apps from Microsoft and maybe third-party

00:34:55   developers, because this is an open source framework that developers can use. And

00:35:02   all of this with collaboration on top of it. So it's going to be based on the Office 365

00:35:07   cloud collaboration system. And so it's not just that you can embed these elements within different

00:35:16   apps, you can also collaborate in real time with other people on those elements. So the idea would

00:35:23   be, rather than thinking of "oh okay I'm doing my email therefore I'm using Outlook" or "I'm writing

00:35:29   an essay, therefore I'm using Word, everything becomes so much more fluid in the sense of

00:35:36   everything can be anywhere at the same time. And in theory, it's a beautiful idea, right?

00:35:45   It's the idea of stop thinking of your computer as a series of applications and start thinking of

00:35:52   your work as a concept that follows you around all the time. You're not limited by

00:35:58   clicking a specific icon and opening a specific app anymore, all kinds of work, whether it's a

00:36:05   table or an image or some text or a project from your task manager, everything can live together

00:36:12   all the time. And it's not just you, you can also invite other people in this. You cannot even call

00:36:20   them documents anymore, they're just content or they just work. I don't understand this,

00:36:25   I cannot get my head around this. I'm really struggling.

00:36:30   The idea or the technicality of it?

00:36:32   I just don't understand. So what is Word then?

00:36:36   Okay, see, okay, so we're getting to the point of this. So the idea would be that

00:36:42   Word is... Well, first of all, that is also my question for all the criticism that I have

00:36:49   of this idea, but Word is a place where you can start writing your Word documents, but where

00:36:58   maybe you also want to embed a task list from Microsoft To-Do, or where maybe you want to embed

00:37:05   the conversation from Outlook. I guess when you think about it, you start losing the identity of

00:37:12   all these applications, right? Because everything can just be anything, right? It's like Word can

00:37:18   also be Excel. And Excel can also be... So do you think that they're like, they're just moving to

00:37:23   Office and that's it, right? I think that's the goal, right? Which would also be, which would also

00:37:29   explain why they launched the unified Office app for mobile devices, right? You don't, like, you

00:37:35   still have the legacy, well not legacy because they're still updated, but you still have the

00:37:40   standalone apps for Word and PowerPoint and Excel, but you also have the main Office app. So the idea

00:37:46   would be stop thinking of individual applications and start thinking of the big picture of this more

00:37:52   cohesive whole that is your work. And the idea again is you can take these elements anywhere

00:38:02   you want and then you can collaborate with other people and you can have integration with Microsoft

00:38:06   Teams on top of it as well. Which again, I think conceptually speaking, I do see the beauty of it.

00:38:16   What if you were not constrained by application A, application B, application C, and so forth? What

00:38:25   if your work was this abstract concept that doesn't require a specific app anymore? It's just content,

00:38:33   and content follows you around. It's a beautiful idea, for sure. However, as Stephen is going to

00:38:39   explain, it's the kind of idea that has been done before by multiple companies, including

00:38:45   Microsoft itself. A similar idea used to be called the OLE framework, the Object Linking and

00:38:53   Embedding Framework in the 90s, and of course, as Stephen mentioned, OpenDoc created by Apple

00:39:00   in the 90s also. So Stephen, what was OpenDoc? It is an amazing coincidence. The things that you just

00:39:11   talked about Apple and others tried to basically do in the 90s. And so they were kind of two big

00:39:18   questions. The first one you just stated, why should applications be locked to specific types

00:39:23   of work? Why should data be locked in certain file formats? Why can't you have a sales chart

00:39:29   that updates automatically in the document that you're working on? Right? So there's that side of

00:39:34   the coin, there's the work side of the coin, then there was a side of the coin of sort of the

00:39:40   push for object oriented programming and object oriented work. And that was something that next

00:39:45   and some others had been doing Apple kind of wandered in the desert a bit with this, but

00:39:51   really struggled and actually like third parties came to rise to prominence in in Mac development

00:39:58   tools. And so OpenDoc was kind of a way for customers for users to be able to do this new

00:40:04   type of work. And for Apple to say this is how we're going to develop things now and try to regain

00:40:09   some of that control. It was made in conjunction with Apple and IBM.

00:40:15   Microsoft had been working on similar ideas in the same time frame. This

00:40:19   isn't new for Microsoft either. And Apple, you know, think about the 90s, had a very

00:40:23   tiny market share and they didn't want to be locked out of a more interchangeable

00:40:27   future, right? Like there were already huge compatibility issues between

00:40:33   Microsoft and Apple software and they wanted to do what they could to stay

00:40:38   relevant in there. So OpenDoc is introduced in '93 and ends up shipping in '95, and it

00:40:47   basically never got off the ground in any huge way. So it had the ideas that you talked

00:40:56   about where you could have—they called them—canvas was a big word in OpenDoc. You could have

00:41:02   app was like a canvas and then you could put in the parts from these different

00:41:07   applications you can kind of think like the closest thing we have to this today

00:41:13   is kind of like shortcuts where shortcuts the app is a place where you

00:41:18   can build things with intents and things supplied by different apps on your

00:41:24   devices kind of the same idea so your word processor your spreadsheet your

00:41:30   your contact manager, your calendar would all have little bits of code that could interface

00:41:36   with each other on a canvas and you could kind of make your own thing.

00:41:39   So it was like part document creation, part programming.

00:41:42   Like I said, it didn't really go any well.

00:41:45   Apple really got distracted with things like Copeland, which was their one of a couple

00:41:50   attempts at building a next gen OS that failed and they ended up buying next and launching

00:41:55   OS 10 years later.

00:41:57   warrior came to basically dominate the IDE space on the Mac. So OpenDoc just

00:42:02   wasn't supported by the community, really wasn't supported by Apple. And then there

00:42:07   were the issues of these parts. Like the idea was it was to be so open that say

00:42:13   that I create a document and I sent it to you Federico and you were missing one

00:42:18   of the parts. Like I had made something in application A, you didn't have

00:42:23   application a where the open doc format was designed to work around that but in

00:42:28   practice developers didn't really do the work to make that happen so you couldn't

00:42:33   really guarantee that it was even interoperable because if I sent you

00:42:36   something and I created part of this doc in Excel you didn't have Excel it just

00:42:41   wouldn't show up in your copy or it would be like broken somehow that's very

00:42:46   counter to know what they were trying to do it really kind of the idea

00:42:53   Clearly that idea has merit because it keeps coming back, but there's this particular swing at it just

00:42:58   Did it didn't really work?

00:43:01   I guess the way that Microsoft is probably trying to get around the problems of

00:43:05   Something like open doc is like no this is our thing, right?

00:43:09   Right, like they don't have to worry about getting other people to jump on board, right?

00:43:13   It's like no these are the Microsoft products and all the Microsoft products can be interoperable

00:43:19   I am still like struggling to get my head around the conceptual nature of this.

00:43:26   Yeah, it's weird. It's really weird.

00:43:28   And you know, you're right. Apple in a way, OpenDoc in a way, was way more ambitious than what Microsoft was talking about because

00:43:35   there were those with an Apple who really wanted OpenDoc to be the future of the Mac, right? You didn't have these

00:43:41   giant programs. You could go out and get these little tiny itty bitty programs and like build them together and to have just what you needed.

00:43:49   It just never panned out.

00:43:52   Your partner is IBM, they're working on OS/2, which went down in flames.

00:43:56   It never really got the momentum it needed, and even if it had, I'm not sure it was the

00:44:02   right implementation of the idea.

00:44:06   I think one of the reasons for this type of thing never being able to work cross-platform

00:44:10   is you take away a company's ability to brand itself.

00:44:17   If you say like, "oh hey developer, you're just now a plugin."

00:44:22   Companies like to be able to brand themselves, right?

00:44:26   This is who we are, this is how we design, this is the experience we want our customers

00:44:30   to have.

00:44:31   I think this is always a problem with this type of stuff, even with things like Siri,

00:44:37   or even something like shortcuts.

00:44:39   A lot of companies would be like, "no, we want people in our app, we believe it's good,

00:44:46   because we made it."

00:44:47   whether that is or not is up for your own interpretation.

00:44:50   But companies are made up of people who want to make the thing that they want to

00:44:55   make.

00:44:56   They don't want to be just a little piece of technology that goes into something

00:45:01   that somebody else makes.

00:45:03   So I think the only way to do something like this in the modern day is to own and

00:45:08   operate a stack of technology which is broad.

00:45:11   And obviously Microsoft have been doing that, right?

00:45:14   Like they have everything now, you know,

00:45:16   They have word processor, spreadsheets, PowerPoint is obviously a thing.

00:45:22   I was going to say PowerPoints.

00:45:23   Now they own PowerPoint is the thing.

00:45:25   Slides, I guess.

00:45:27   But they have their team chat thing.

00:45:29   They have to-do managers.

00:45:30   They even have a new one, like another new one that they showed off a couple of days

00:45:35   ago.

00:45:36   So I guess that they feel that they can do it.

00:45:39   But it's still like...

00:45:41   I think the thing that I'm just struggling to get my head around is like not saying like

00:45:46   this is just one thing that we have now, we just have this one product, by saying like

00:45:50   you can put an Excel spreadsheet in Word. It's like...

00:45:54   But why would I want to?

00:45:55   Why? Yeah, like why are they different things then? You know, like in my mind, like when

00:46:01   I first saw this, I thought, oh, they've built a new online collaboration tool called Fluid,

00:46:07   and it has all of this functionality, but that's not what they've built, right? At least

00:46:11   that's not what they're showing off. Like what they have is, or what they're saying

00:46:15   they're gonna have is, like, you can just use this functionality inside of it. It's

00:46:20   very confusing to me. Like, is there like a fluid.microsoft.com where you can go and

00:46:25   just start doing whatever you want, like a Dropbox paper?

00:46:28   No, I don't think there is.

00:46:31   Like I don't think that's the product that they're building.

00:46:33   And they're actually very light on details and actual demos right now. It feels to me

00:46:39   like they're trying to sell people on the idea and the concept still.

00:46:42   Yeah, there's a way to get to go and try it, but you have to have a very specific type of Microsoft account.

00:46:48   I was trying to log in here and it wouldn't let me.

00:46:51   So I have a few personal problems with this sort of idea.

00:46:56   And I guess I could boil them down to three separate types of issues.

00:47:01   My main problem, technically speaking, with this idea of you can embed anything you want, anywhere you want,

00:47:09   is that you don't have a tailored experience for anything anymore if you were to do that.

00:47:16   You end up in a situation where you can have a table in Word and you can have a task manager

00:47:22   inside your email client and you can have your email client inside of your presentation app.

00:47:26   And I'm very much a believer in the idea that, like, I like to use dedicated apps,

00:47:35   I like to use native apps and each app does something specific to that.

00:47:40   This idea of, yeah, let's just put everything together and

00:47:45   base everything off of plugins and you can have all kinds of experiences everywhere.

00:47:51   It just doesn't make for a well-designed core experience in my opinion.

00:47:55   Can I provide some real-time follow-up?

00:47:57   Sure.

00:47:57   The Fluid preview that you can sign up for if you have one of these specific type of Microsoft

00:48:03   things it looks just like a Dropbox paper document. So it's just like a blank thing and then you can

00:48:09   press a button and you get like "oh what do you want what type of content do you want to add?"

00:48:14   and it's like table, date, checklist, bulleted list, number line, like it's like a whole thing.

00:48:18   Then there is this that's their preview website but all of the stuff from the the big Verge article

00:48:23   just talks about integrating the functionality inside of our applications. Like this is why

00:48:28   why I'm getting so confused, because I can't work out what they're actually trying to show

00:48:32   me.

00:48:33   >> And in the Verge article, they're talking about, like, how it's going to be so easy

00:48:38   for developers to just adopt the Fluid framework by, like, replacing a static string in their

00:48:44   app, and it's going to -- and it provides, like -- like, it's going to be instant, like,

00:48:50   a web-based -- and I'm quoting -- a web-based framework that you can use to instantly make

00:48:55   your apps collaborative.

00:48:56   First of all, like nothing is instant, right?

00:49:00   Nothing is just, oh, it's just a single line of code

00:49:02   and you're gonna make your app collaborative.

00:49:04   Like that does not exist.

00:49:05   Like it's that idea of, oh, just put in a single line

00:49:09   and suddenly you have a collaborative app.

00:49:11   No, coding does not work like that.

00:49:13   It just doesn't, it's not true.

00:49:15   - And that also kind of makes it sound like Microsoft

00:49:19   want to own like web collaboration.

00:49:23   Like now they're just like,

00:49:25   "Oh, don't worry about building it, just drop in wood in the middle."

00:49:32   I am very skeptical, personally, it's just my nature.

00:49:35   I'm very skeptical of anything that is heavily reliant on plugins,

00:49:42   because plugins are a good way to start poking holes in your system

00:49:49   and add failure points to whatever you have.

00:49:53   whether it's a WordPress installation,

00:49:56   whether it's a custom, like an app that you've made

00:50:01   and you wanna let others extend with plugins.

00:50:04   Like plugins by their own nature, they add complication,

00:50:09   they add complexity and they add failure points.

00:50:12   And everything that is so heavily based on plugins,

00:50:15   every time I see them I'm like, mm-mm, I don't trust that.

00:50:19   You know, just what I am.

00:50:21   Finally, I want to mention how, at a very basic level, this idea, it sounded progressive in the

00:50:28   90s with OpenDoc, and it sounds progressive now. It sounds kind of... Honestly, if you just

00:50:33   take the concept of it for what it is, it sounds kind of awesome.

00:50:38   Your work is always available to you no matter the app that you're using. So moving away from

00:50:43   this concept of individual applications as silos, I think it's kind of neat, conceptually speaking.

00:50:51   But in practice, I just don't think it's the way that humans like to think and operate computers.

00:50:58   I believe that at a fundamental level, people think in compartments, people think with boxes,

00:51:07   right? And I think it's only natural for a person to say, "Okay, I need to write an email,

00:51:12   therefore I open my email client, and I need to write something for school, therefore I open

00:51:18   pages or words. I think it's only natural, because it's what we do when you think

00:51:22   about it, when you take a look at the bigger picture, it's what we do as humans.

00:51:26   We compartmentalize tasks and things to do, and just the way that we do

00:51:33   anything, we categorize things. Like, I put it in the document, but like, look at

00:51:40   your home right now. You have rooms, you have a kitchen, you have a living room,

00:51:45   you have maybe a garage where you keep your tools and your workbench, and you wouldn't

00:51:50   want to be in a situation where your partner comes back home and finds you cooking pancakes

00:51:55   in your closet. And you're like, "What are you doing in there?"

00:51:58   I could do it anywhere! I could do it anywhere, because what is a

00:52:01   kitchen anymore, right? And I just don't think it's a good idea. I just don't think it's

00:52:07   what... I mean, you could do it, right? You could sure put a stove in your closet and

00:52:11   you could do pancakes in there. You could get one of those little all-like

00:52:12   conduction here, thanks. For sure you could do it or you could maybe go sleep in the garage

00:52:18   or you could you could do all kinds of things. I just don't think it would be optimal and honestly

00:52:23   I just don't think you will like it and I think all these concepts this fluid framework and open

00:52:30   doc and sometimes we see also these concept videos for this like this smart operating systems when

00:52:37   where you have no apps, all you have is projects and your work follows you around. You know what?

00:52:43   They look kind of pretty. I just don't think you will like it. I would hate it. Every time I see a

00:52:49   concept like that where it's like, oh, I've rebuilt the operating system. No, I like having things in

00:52:56   places. I will say, right, like if they built a tool. Yes, I like having things in places. That's

00:53:03   Exactly what it is. Yes. Right. Like I,

00:53:05   if they built a web tool that could incorporate all of this functionality into

00:53:10   one place.

00:53:11   So you have one collaborative place where you can make like all,

00:53:15   you can pull in all this functionality from different office stuff.

00:53:18   I think that's great. What I don't like is this idea of like,

00:53:21   you're in Word and now you can also put a PowerPoint in the middle of it.

00:53:26   It's like, that's not what I want. Right. Like, because then the,

00:53:31   The fluid thing is like, well, that becomes its own thing and its own place.

00:53:36   Right. You have this place where you go.

00:53:38   And in that place, in the collaborative environment you've built,

00:53:41   you can do whatever you want, but you keep specific types of work in that place.

00:53:46   Right. Like that's where that stuff goes.

00:53:48   It's like I don't write in Google Docs.

00:53:51   Google Docs is where my collaborative documents go for sharing stuff for shows.

00:53:56   If I want to write something, I will use something like notes

00:54:00   or Bear or IARiter, right? Because functionally they are the same thing, but they're silos for

00:54:07   where specific types of work goes. So even if you have this web tool called Fluid, which lets you

00:54:15   seamlessly switch between different types of functionality and different types of documents,

00:54:20   that's great, but that's its own thing? Not that now I can put a to-do list in my email,

00:54:27   which seems like hell. I don't want to put to-do lists everywhere, right? I don't need to do that.

00:54:34   I have my to-do manager where they go. So it's an interesting idea. I think people get excited

00:54:41   about this idea of like, "Oh, they're going to kill Google Docs." And it's like, "Yeah,

00:54:44   but I actually don't think that's what they want to do." They want to make Office absolutely

00:54:52   dependent from like other people completely dependent on office, right?

00:54:56   Like they want developers to integrate this functionality into their

00:55:01   applications. So everyone needs to have office 365.

00:55:05   Yeah. I mean, it's yeah, that's their play here, right? It's it's.

00:55:09   Yeah, which is totally fine if that's what they want to do.

00:55:12   I'm just not sure that I want.

00:55:13   Yeah, but you're not a big company with people making reports all the time.

00:55:16   We are the target market for really good collaboration tools, right?

00:55:20   Like building a really good online collaboration tool, we're totally that.

00:55:25   But when also not the people using Microsoft Teams and integrating our shared list in Microsoft

00:55:30   Teams, that's a different customer.

00:55:33   I think something you said about people want these categories, they want these boxes to

00:55:37   go into, that's what we've been trained to do not only on the desktop, but since the

00:55:41   very beginning in mobile.

00:55:44   It's why I struggle with apps like Drafts or other things, like you start one place

00:55:48   and you send things elsewhere, it's like, I'm just going to open the mail app, right?

00:55:52   And it's not that those apps don't have a place, but for me, I tend to work in that

00:55:58   older way. Like, you know, I'm going to open the app, then I'm going to start stuff in,

00:56:01   and that's where I'm going to go.

00:56:02   Yeah, like, I think it would be fair to say that iOS and Android are even more like this

00:56:09   than Mac and Windows, right? Because the operating systems have been built that way. They have

00:56:14   built app first. Programs were different, right? Because you can have multiple versions of the

00:56:23   same application running at once, multiple windows all over the place. That's only in its

00:56:28   mere infancy on the iPad, right? And probably not implemented that well, as we mentioned, right?

00:56:36   Like, they could be better and different, and we should have these locked spaces and that kind of

00:56:41   of idea, but apps are way more siloed on mobile platforms than they are on traditional platforms.

00:56:49   Yeah, and I guess, really, you could make the argument that as a species we are programmed to

00:56:56   think with boxes and categories. It's just like, it's the easiest way to approach life,

00:57:03   to categorize different things and different people in groups and responsibilities in groups,

00:57:09   like, everything goes into a group, into a box in our brain, and, like, without those

00:57:15   boxes, I think we would just fall prey to anxiety all the time, which is exactly how

00:57:21   I feel whenever I use something like Notion, because I can do anything I want, I just don't

00:57:26   know where to start, I don't know what the boundaries are, I cannot see the boxes that

00:57:29   I'm used to. And so, while this freedom is beautiful, conceptually speaking, and it's

00:57:37   quite the paradox, I guess, that it makes me feel less free because I just don't

00:57:43   know where to start. So that's how I've always felt about these tools and these

00:57:47   concepts where, oh, it doesn't matter, anything is anything, it doesn't matter,

00:57:53   and I'm like, no, give me some ground rules, because that's how I like to

00:57:58   operate as a person and as a computer user, like, the absence of rules just

00:58:04   leads to madness. And this is like, these concepts and this fluid stuff, I look at it

00:58:09   and I'm like, man, I could never work like this. It would just be so confusing. I wouldn't

00:58:13   know where to start and we're just like, a confusing mess of things all over the place.

00:58:19   No, no, no, that's no way to use a computer for me. So, I don't know. Maybe I'm getting

00:58:23   old. I don't think I'm getting old because this idea was tried before. I think I'm right.

00:58:26   I don't think I'm old. I think I'm right. So, modularity. Can be a beautiful thing,

00:58:31   also definitely like you know this is the the part of it that I don't

00:58:35   necessarily appreciate. We'll see how it goes for Microsoft you know open dot got

00:58:39   killed when you know who came back to Apple so see how it goes. Let's take our

00:58:45   second break how about that? Go for it. That sound good? I want to talk about my

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01:00:09   alright so next up in our ongoing series of anticipating WWDC we are four weeks

01:00:16   away now right four weeks two days something like that

01:00:20   or a month and two days, right?

01:00:22   Yeah, 32 days.

01:00:24   Excellent.

01:00:24   We're going to turn to watchOS today.

01:00:28   We're going to talk about watchOS.

01:00:30   I'm not sure if we're going to

01:00:31   I don't think we're going to go to every platform like this,

01:00:34   but watchOS is kind of different because it is a smaller platform.

01:00:37   So rather than like breaking it up into little chunks

01:00:40   and talking about things that might be across iOS, MacOS,

01:00:43   we're just going to talk about watchOS 7.

01:00:46   One of the reasons that we're going to do this today is because underscore

01:00:49   David Smith published a blog post which did a lot of the work for us because nobody, I

01:00:56   don't think anybody knows watchOS like David does. Underscore has made many, many watch

01:01:03   apps and really knows the platform. The article itself has a lot more in it than we're going

01:01:10   to talk about today because there's a lot of developer focused things that if you're

01:01:14   a watchOS developer would be more important to you. I think we're just going to focus

01:01:19   on the customer focused things. So I'll go through these one by one and we can stop wherever

01:01:25   you guys want to want to talk about them. So the first is sleep tracking. So this is

01:01:31   something that a lot of people wanted. It seems like it's kind of been waiting for one

01:01:35   of two things for Apple either to have the software just right or to have the hardware

01:01:38   just right to be able to take the battery hit that this will inevitably give to watches,

01:01:43   right, if they're going to be on all night. This is why one of the reasons I believe Federico

01:01:47   So you have two watches, right? Because sleep tracking requires that for you?

01:01:51   Yup. That's why.

01:01:52   Because you've got to charge the watch or swap the watch, right? If you want to do sleep

01:01:57   tracking because you're going to have it on 24 hours a day rather than like 14 or something.

01:02:03   But one of the things that I really liked that Underscore mentioned is that adding in

01:02:07   sleep tracking could add in the concept of maybe a fourth ring to the activity rings

01:02:13   called recovery and this could tie in of a few different things.

01:02:16   It could tie in with workouts, right?

01:02:18   And the fact that your body needs to recover after workouts.

01:02:21   It could tie in with stress measurements that it's doing to basically say like

01:02:25   how recovered are you and could maybe help with workout planning.

01:02:29   And I thought that this was a really nice and interesting idea of rather than just

01:02:34   adding the sleep tracking functionality to the watch,

01:02:40   it would also integrate more deeply into the idea of what WatchOS does.

01:02:45   Because you would be able to make better decisions for how you would work out

01:02:51   based on how recovered you are, and sleep would definitely be a big factor of that.

01:02:56   If you hadn't slept enough, you can't work out as well, maybe.

01:02:58   Yeah, I agree. I'm just trying to think of what other factors could tie into this recovery idea.

01:03:05   Maybe there could be third party apps that could generate the information.

01:03:10   I don't know what, so you could use maybe a workout app that knows that you had a particularly

01:03:16   hard workout yesterday or an easy workout yesterday and that will allow for a different

01:03:21   recovery level, that kind of thing, which is interesting.

01:03:23   This also actually then adds into another point that David made about custom rings.

01:03:27   So what if you could track specific things like maybe you don't care so much about standing

01:03:33   but you do care about your step count or your water intake throughout a day. And you could

01:03:38   maybe have activity rings that track the things that you want rather than the three that Apple

01:03:42   have defined. It'd be spectacular. I think that's a great idea. I'd love to have something like

01:03:47   mindful minutes in there. And you could maybe, I mean, they could do it where you have different

01:03:52   activity ring sets, right? So days that, um, a recovery day, I've got things like water and

01:03:58   sleep and mindful minutes and then days when I'm working out maybe I do want

01:04:02   activity and exercise and stand. I think that could be a really nice way to

01:04:07   broaden what the watch tracks. You can already track a lot of that stuff now

01:04:12   through third-party apps. They seem to open it up. Yeah it's interesting that so much

01:04:16   of the Apple Watch's identity is based around the activity rings but those

01:04:19   three rings have never changed. I think they need to be careful with this if

01:04:24   they do it because I don't think they should move away from the fact that you

01:04:28   can buy an Apple Watch and it's got the three rings and they're on by default and it's all

01:04:31   you need to care about. I think it would be a neat addition for power users to say now

01:04:36   you can customize your rings and you can have like custom rings and you can customize all

01:04:40   the metrics there. But I think for most people, they just want to buy an Apple Watch, have

01:04:43   the three rings and they want to follow Apple's recommendations for increasing the goals or

01:04:48   decreasing the goals of each ring. Well, the activity ring in this case is the only, you

01:04:53   know, that can be taken up or down.

01:04:54   Yeah, I feel like you wouldn't want to change the default, right? Like it ships with the three,

01:04:59   but in the activity app maybe you could customize it, right? But like that...

01:05:03   Those three were picked for a reason. They are a really good place to start,

01:05:08   but they're maybe not what every person cares about.

01:05:11   I agree. I also don't think that if they do end up adding rings... I've seen some people share

01:05:17   the idea that maybe a slip ring should be the new default fourth one, and I disagree with that.

01:05:23   If only because sleep is a, like, it's very hard to make any assumptions about sleep for other people.

01:05:31   And by this I mean that the watch already makes some pretty broad assumptions about, like, oh,

01:05:37   you need to stand 12 hours a day. But to make an assumption about another person's sleep schedule

01:05:44   and to have a default value for a sleep ring, you need to account for what if, you know,

01:05:51   what if I'm the mother of a young child and I cannot sleep six hours per night anymore?

01:05:59   Or what if I work the night shift and my sleep schedule right now is all messed up because of

01:06:05   this? Yeah, sleep is a hard one. Like, all the other ones are so basic, right? Like, 12 hours

01:06:11   standing up a day, you know, and 30 minutes of activity. Like, they seem to be pretty simple.

01:06:18   like they're not very... for a lot of people it wouldn't be hard to miss those, right?

01:06:23   But to say eight hours a night, like that's not gonna work.

01:06:30   Exactly. And I personally cannot get eight hours of sleep anymore, like eight consecutive hours of

01:06:36   sleep. Like I just... it just doesn't happen anymore. And if I sleep more than seven hours,

01:06:40   I wake up and I have a headache and I feel super groggy and everything. Like it just doesn't happen

01:06:45   anymore. But it's also something that like, what if you don't get the sleep ring full,

01:06:52   then what? You're gonna have to take a forced nap during the day? No, I don't want to take

01:06:58   sleep.

01:06:59   That's why I think Underscore's recommendation of sleep could be a factor in another ring,

01:07:06   right? That could be the idea of recovery. Underscore's in the Relay FM members Discord

01:07:13   as we're recording live and says that sleep quality, heart rate variability, resting heart

01:07:18   rate are also good recovers of how like indicators of stress or recovered you are. So like that

01:07:23   recovery ring could be a lot of things. However, at the same time, all of those things still

01:07:29   feel like it could be tricky to achieve that one in a streak mentality if so many things

01:07:36   are factoring into it. Like what do you do to bump the number up if you play that game?

01:07:41   Yeah, it's a very fine line to walk between gamifying the system and just making people

01:07:48   feel stressed and unaccomplished for this stuff, you know? And like, what if it's like a difficult

01:07:55   period for me right now, especially now with all the things going on? It's like, yes, I'm more

01:07:59   stressed, don't make me feel bad about that. You know, so I get it and I do want to, of course I

01:08:05   I want to have native sleep tracking.

01:08:07   But to have it as a ring that is for sleep alone,

01:08:11   which is an idea that I've seen shared on Twitter with, again,

01:08:14   some concepts and all that kind of stuff,

01:08:17   I think it could be tricky to make it work and make

01:08:19   assumptions that will work for everybody

01:08:22   and without running into the issue of making

01:08:26   people feel bad.

01:08:27   I don't know.

01:08:29   It could be part of a bigger recovery ring, which is--

01:08:33   I think it's a more interesting idea.

01:08:35   Then again, it all comes down to the data

01:08:37   that you're collecting there.

01:08:38   Like, what is recovery for you?

01:08:41   Like, how do you know that I'm not stressed?

01:08:44   Is that because of new sensors that you have?

01:08:48   And like, is it something that I need to tell you?

01:08:51   Like, I've also seen like these mood trackers, for example,

01:08:54   right, that multiple times during the day,

01:08:56   they ask you, are you happy?

01:08:57   Are you feeling stressed or relieved?

01:08:59   Like, sure, I just don't think it's something

01:09:02   that I want to do all the time. So let's actually touch on that because one of the

01:09:08   things that Underscore mentions is more mental health applications for the watch in general

01:09:12   and I saw a separate rumor about watchOS 7 potentially getting a blood oxygen sensor

01:09:19   that apparently could help with stress detection. Okay so see that's something. I don't completely

01:09:23   understand how that works but like I'll just take it on the surface. Just science man.

01:09:28   Yes, science. But like, you know, if I would, I think I would like my watch to be able to

01:09:34   understand how stressed I am. I don't know if I would. I think I would really need to

01:09:38   understand how that made me feel. I do feel like my watch telling me I'm stressed might

01:09:45   make me more stressed.

01:09:48   But I'm not sure yet. And in the same vein of like, if it only is recognising when I'm

01:09:53   in intense moments if it can provide me with things to do, you know, more than just, as

01:10:01   Underscore mentions, more than just to breathe. Maybe there's like, as Stephen was talking

01:10:05   about, mindfulness, meditation built in like the Apple could do to try and help me calm

01:10:10   down. That might be good, but I also do feel like if I'm feeling particularly stressed,

01:10:15   my watch sound like, "Hey, you're stressed." I could imagine many times of me taking my

01:10:19   watch off and launching it across the room. So I feel like I'm not sure yet how that would make me

01:10:26   feel but could be interesting if done correctly. But I think this honestly like this is quite

01:10:34   similar to sleep in that I think these things would differ for a lot of people as to what they

01:10:39   might want and I think this might be why some of these things have taken maybe more time than we

01:10:46   we would have expected to come to the Apple watch because I think trying to implement

01:10:51   them for a large amount of people rather than people that opt in to get third party applications

01:10:57   that do this stuff is I expect quite a tricky prospect. Yeah. At rest days, this is one

01:11:03   that should be added. I can't believe they haven't added it. Like if you are injured

01:11:08   and have a 1000 day exercise streak and you've twisted your ankle, right? Or like broke your

01:11:16   leg or you're sick. Losing that streak feels so mean. The concept of rest days exists in

01:11:25   exercise. It is a very normal thing that you will take a rest day, that you won't exercise

01:11:31   every day to give yourself a break if you want one. Sometimes this can be a mental health

01:11:36   thing, right? Like, "I don't want to exercise today. It will make me feel better than not

01:11:41   Like not having rest days is really wild to me. Like it really is wild.

01:11:46   Yeah, it's surprised, very surprising to me that it's still not part of the

01:11:51   activity stuff and especially like right now I sure hope that you know the

01:11:57   lockdown and a global pandemic must, I guess it must have shown Apple why this

01:12:01   isn't like a feature that needs to happen because maybe you know you

01:12:07   haven't been able to go for a run or you haven't been able to go to the gym and

01:12:10   Maybe you cannot have a gym inside your apartment.

01:12:14   Like, this is a feature that, and maybe, again,

01:12:18   you're just sick and you cannot get out of bed

01:12:20   and you're not crazy like Kyle, you know,

01:12:22   goes for a run even if he's running a fever.

01:12:25   Like, most people don't do that, right?

01:12:28   I mean, I would die if I do that, so.

01:12:31   - It could be argued that maybe you shouldn't, right?

01:12:34   Like, everybody's different, but--

01:12:35   Sure, and not everybody is, you know, 23 years old and super strong, but yeah, I mean, you know,

01:12:43   when you're sick you likely want to stay in bed and just, you know, hope to get better. So, yes,

01:12:49   a rest day is a not so... Most physicians will tell you that you're not supposed to work out heavily

01:12:55   every single day, right? They will tell you that you actually do need a past day in your work,

01:13:02   in your workout routine because that's how the body recovers. And you know when tissues recover

01:13:07   and muscles, you build muscle during those days. So I'm very surprised that this is still not a

01:13:17   native feature of the whole activity system by Apple. And I think that people think about the

01:13:23   exercise ring as the hard thing to achieve here, but I think it's the move ring because the move

01:13:28   The movering adjusts based on you. The exercise ring is fixed at 30 but the

01:13:34   movering is changing based on the amount of calories that you burn based on your

01:13:38   movement and it will increase and decrease over time and there's been many

01:13:43   people I've seen like online talking about the fact that like a 400 for you

01:13:48   and a 400 for me are different. Like the numbers the same but what that

01:13:52   watch is gauging as to what it would take me to burn that is different from

01:13:56   person to person. So I think that that's when, like if you're changing your moving and doing

01:14:01   what the watch is suggesting that you do to be more and more active, like that gets harder

01:14:06   and harder to achieve and if you're sick or you want to take a break, like maybe you can't

01:14:12   now and that seems very strange.

01:14:16   Improved workout detection is something. I think this is an interesting one. Like the

01:14:21   automatic workout detection exists but could always be better. The Apple Watch can do very

01:14:29   interesting things to when I'm doing a workout, right? To be like, "Oh, we think you've moved

01:14:35   this way and this way and this way based on what we know about this type of workout."

01:14:40   Could that be expanded? If I'm doing yoga and haven't told the watch I'm doing yoga,

01:14:45   could it know? When I'm doing yoga, it knows I'm doing yoga. It's tracking yoga movement,

01:14:50   But like, could it? No. I don't usually move my arms around and around in this way, right?

01:14:55   Like, could you be doing something with the senses to be like, "This is abnormal," and ask me then,

01:15:01   as opposed to if I'm just working up a real sweat, you know? Like, is there more types of workouts

01:15:07   that could be detected? Because whenever I do yoga, I always forget to tell my Apple Watch.

01:15:13   Every single time, I just forget. I wonder if it could apply some of the same logic where it says,

01:15:18   "hey you've used this app this time of day" like "hey you seem to do yoga every other day at 8 am

01:15:25   maybe i could start suggesting so you don't forget to hit the button" that could be a nice middle ground

01:15:31   true watch independence so this has gone a long way right like this with being able to have apps

01:15:40   installed or like that just watch apps and stuff like that but there were two parts of the watch

01:15:45   independence that David mentioned that I thought were that seemed to make sense to me. Being able

01:15:50   to set up an Apple Watch without an iPhone, that's an eventual thing. I don't think we're there yet,

01:15:55   but I think that will happen one day. And also having CloudKit adapted for watchOS more. So

01:16:00   you could sync, the watch can sync with the phone when it's close, but also sync with the cloud

01:16:06   directly when it can't. So having more CloudKit stuff could be good for watchOS, I guess.

01:16:12   The thing about the watch being set up independently from the phone is that

01:16:15   fundamentally changes the watch's position in the world right now the watch is a satellite to the phone and

01:16:22   I think when they say hey, okay

01:16:25   You can now set this up on its own then the watch becomes its own product in a way the same thing happened with what?

01:16:30   Ios 5 I think where the PC free right?

01:16:33   Hey, you can set up a phone an iPhone without a Mac or a PC

01:16:38   You can install software updates without iTunes right and they added those things over time

01:16:41   I don't know the last time I plugged my iPhone into a computer. It's probably been years, right?

01:16:46   And I think the watch will get there. I just I don't know if it's quite ready

01:16:51   Yeah, I just figure with iCloud, you know, like you can still tie them all together in a way

01:16:56   But just not needing it for that initial setup could be interesting

01:17:00   Last two things these are things that we've spoken about recently, but they're just worth mentioning here

01:17:05   The always on during workouts. I think I mentioned this maybe last week or the week before

01:17:11   that the screen dims, right? And shows that little digital clock, which I hate.

01:17:15   I think during workouts it should be possible to just leave some kind of always on screen,

01:17:22   which is better, more useful, and more customizable watch faces in general.

01:17:27   Like, I think this needs a huge amount of work done to it. Being able to have more

01:17:32   complication types and more watch faces and have them be a lot more flexible than they are right

01:17:36   now is a big project, but I think a much, much, much needed project.

01:17:42   Especially like David mentions in his wishlist the ability to have, for complications, to

01:17:49   be able to export like multiple versions of the same complication basically, which is

01:17:54   definitely something that I noticed when I was playing around with WatchSmith and also

01:17:58   with other apps. Apple apps can do this, you can have multiple complications for the same

01:18:03   that's not possible for third parties yet and it does feel like something that

01:18:07   should exist on the platform for watch face customization because I would

01:18:11   love to have like multiple complications for say you know the timezone thing in

01:18:19   WatchSmith right so definitely more freedom there to have multiple versions

01:18:26   of multiple complications from the same app that would be lovely. I do have some

01:18:31   additional things to share and a quick story to tell if you guys are okay with

01:18:37   it. Of course. I actually have photographic proof of the story. Is this

01:18:43   gonna be another like really relatable man of the people story? I think I think

01:18:48   so but you also need to wait for me to send you like it'll happen in a few

01:18:54   minutes so stay with me. So I mentioned in terms of like other watch

01:18:59   features that I would like to see. Better and easier and faster software updates, that's a given.

01:19:05   I also would like to use the digital crown to scroll through different sets of complications

01:19:18   for the same watch face. So right now the digital crown, I thought that it was unused. Myke actually

01:19:26   mentioned that you can use the crown to wake the screen, like you can dim it up and down,

01:19:32   and I totally forgot that this existed because I never do it. I always wake the watch the

01:19:36   old-fashioned way by just flicking my wrist. So I totally forgot that the crown was an

01:19:40   option to wake the display. What I would like to do, basically, is I always want to use

01:19:46   the same watch face. However, I feel like I want to cycle through different sets of

01:19:51   complications either during the day or based on what I'm doing. Like, I never want to switch

01:19:56   between faces by long pressing and swiping, like, I find that so inconvenient and kind of,

01:20:01   you know, that gesture I really don't like. Instead, I want to keep the same watch face,

01:20:05   but I want to basically alternate between different sets of complications for the same

01:20:11   face, and I figured why not use the digital crown, maybe have some Aptiq feedback action going to,

01:20:18   to make that more tactile.

01:20:20   You could actually feel the swapping between complications.

01:20:24   I don't know, it's just something that I would like to have

01:20:26   instead of having to press down and recreate my watch face

01:20:29   and swipe to the other watch face with other complications.

01:20:32   Just let me customize one,

01:20:34   and let me have different sets of complications

01:20:38   for the same face.

01:20:39   And use the crown to swap between them,

01:20:41   because I think this could actually be more useful

01:20:43   than using the crown to wake the screen.

01:20:46   I mean, you already have a relatively easy and reliable gesture to do that, so...

01:20:51   I don't know, it could be an option.

01:20:54   I want to have a grid view for the dock.

01:20:56   I really dislike the vertical carousel for the dock.

01:21:00   I just want to have some kind of grid view that shows me more thumbnails at the same

01:21:05   time and that is faster to navigate.

01:21:07   Would you imagine you would be tapping things to open them, or would it scroll like left-right-down,

01:21:12   left-right-down, left-right-down, you know?

01:21:14   Like if you're scoring with the digital crown.

01:21:16   I would imagine, like, first of all, I would imagine a horizontal display, not a vertical

01:21:22   list. And basically something like the app switcher is what I'm thinking of from the

01:21:29   iPad. But of course, I adapted to watchOS, but like a grid of tiny windows that I can

01:21:37   choose. It just feels very slow to browse the dock right now and to very carefully scroll

01:21:43   this list of windows, I just dislike it. I think it could be easier and faster to use

01:21:49   as a grid. And I think that's the main list. There's one last feature that I would like

01:21:57   to talk about and to show you photographic proof. So I would really like to have a standard

01:22:06   QWERTY keyboard with support for multiple languages. I think it's absolutely wild that

01:22:13   Apple still does not offer a system keyboard for the Apple Watch. And if you go to the

01:22:18   Watch App Store, you're going to find that the Flick Type keyboard is consistently at

01:22:23   the top of the paid charts, exactly because people just want a keyboard to type their

01:22:29   things. Yes, you can have the scribbling feature, yes, you can have dictation, but really, sometimes

01:22:34   you just want to press letters without having to draw them, especially because I cannot

01:22:39   seem to get some letters right with the scribble thing. And I have a story to tell here. So

01:22:45   during the first couple of weeks of lockdown here in Italy, doing online grocery shopping

01:22:53   was basically impossible. Amazon Prime now was not working, and the websites for our

01:22:59   local supermarkets were also not working due to the excessive demand. So once a week or

01:23:06   twice a week I would have to go out and actually do the grocery shopping myself.

01:23:10   And usually I go to this relatively small grocery shop that doesn't have everything that we need,

01:23:18   but has the essentials, until we reach the point where I needed to get the essentials,

01:23:22   which meant I needed to go to the real big supermarket. But to go to that supermarket,

01:23:28   I knew that there was going to be a line. So imagine, picture Federico a couple of months ago,

01:23:35   wearing a mask and gloves. Where a lot of people are right now. Exactly. Where a lot of people

01:23:40   sadly are right now. So mask on, gloves on, and waiting in line in the parking lot of a supermarket

01:23:48   for one hour and 15 minutes under the sun. So I was sweaty and covered with a mask and gloves and

01:23:58   I could actually see the sweat dripping out of my gloves and into my wrist which was super gross.

01:24:03   it was very hot. And I was standing in line with my empty car in the parking lot, waiting

01:24:10   because they were just letting a couple of people in at a time. So at some point I was

01:24:16   just browsing Twitter, actually. It was one of those few times where I was replying to

01:24:20   people. You were replying to tweets. I was replying to tweets and my phone died. Like,

01:24:28   My iPhone just went black screen, it just straight up died, it rebooted, and it got

01:24:35   stuck with a spinner in the middle of the screen, and it wouldn't do anything.

01:24:42   Like I tried to, like a combination of pressing the physical keys on the iPhone and it wouldn't

01:24:48   do anything, it was just a spinner.

01:24:51   And the longer it kept spinning, the harder the phone got.

01:24:56   I've had this.

01:24:57   I realized that something terrible is happening here.

01:25:01   And I remembered that I read somewhere

01:25:04   that there was a specific combination of pressing

01:25:06   the volume and the side button that

01:25:10   would get my phone unstuck.

01:25:12   But of course, because my phone died,

01:25:14   I couldn't Google that combination of things to press.

01:25:19   And I didn't want to ask random people

01:25:21   to let me use their phone, because it

01:25:22   was the first couple of weeks of lockdown.

01:25:24   everybody was freaked out by, you know, just being near other people. So I needed

01:25:31   to tell something to Silvia, but my phone was dead and I remembered, "Oh, this is

01:25:37   actually a perfect use case for my watch." Sorry, because I do have a cellular watch

01:25:43   and I can see that it's actually connected right now and I

01:25:47   can send her an iMessage to tell her something about the grocery

01:25:54   that I needed to buy. Except I opened iMessage and I realized this message is way too long

01:26:00   to be scribbled down by drawing the letters. And I also kept getting the letters wrong.

01:26:06   And I tried to use FlickType because I had it installed on my watch, but it was not letting

01:26:11   me type anything in Italian. Because I don't think it's supported, or because it was just

01:26:17   defaulting to English. And the more I kept pressing letters on the QWERTY keyboard, the

01:26:22   more it kept auto-correcting to something else. And I was getting very frustrated because

01:26:30   I just couldn't type the message that I needed to tell Sylvia. So I realized, okay, I'm gonna

01:26:37   be looking ridiculous right now, especially because I'm also wearing a mask and I cannot

01:26:41   take the mask off, but I'm gonna have to dictate this message on my watch in front of a lot

01:26:47   other people, which I'm very, you know, self-conscious of doing still in public.

01:26:52   So sure enough, I enable dictation and I start dictating this message. And the way that dictation

01:26:58   works is, as soon as you press done, you cannot review the message. The message is sent instantly

01:27:04   to the other person, right? So I will now share with you a screenshot of the message that I sent.

01:27:11   Can I put this in the show notes? Yes, you can. Can you tell me what you were trying to say? Like,

01:27:15   Like can you see? I honestly, I honestly don't remember. I do remember. I do remember. I

01:27:22   was telling Sylvia that my phone died and that I couldn't get it to work anymore and

01:27:29   that if she want and that I still had that she couldn't call me, but that I had the grocery

01:27:36   list available in reminders. Okay. That's what I was going to tell her. Now you were

01:27:41   I assume it's in Italian, I assume.

01:27:43   I was dictating in Italian, of course, because I mean, I already look ridiculous, right?

01:27:47   Talking into my watch in public.

01:27:49   Imagine talking to the watch in public in English, right?

01:27:52   In Rome.

01:27:53   As clearly an Italian person who has been talking to other people in line in Italian,

01:27:58   suddenly started talking in English into his watch.

01:28:01   So as soon as you receive this screenshot, Myke, I want you to read it out loud.

01:28:06   Okay.

01:28:07   So...

01:28:08   This is what Sylvia received, and you can imagine her reaction.

01:28:14   Okay, Miss Empanada's telephone, on so I guess for chess when...

01:28:21   I need to do this again, this is gonna be really hard to do in one go.

01:28:25   Alright, okay, okay.

01:28:26   Okay, Miss Empanada's telephone, on so I guess...

01:28:29   Go slow, you need to...

01:28:33   Okay, Miss Empanada's telephone. On so I guess for chess, win the others.

01:28:38   Roddy of the Arlo, hey, send me that he keeps giving me some messages.

01:28:43   Miss Empanada's telephone! Oh my god, that's good. Oh wow.

01:28:54   All this to say, Apple, you do support multiple languages for dictation and typing on your iPhone.

01:29:03   Is it really that difficult to support multiple languages for dictation and a keyboard input mode on the watch?

01:29:10   Because I honestly don't want to be in this situation anymore.

01:29:13   So the problem there then is that it is taking in Italian and trying to translate it to English

01:29:21   based on what it thinks it's hearing. I don't even know how it's possible to get that result

01:29:27   because Italian doesn't sound like English, right?

01:29:32   I can't imagine. I mean, telephone is telefono, which I said.

01:29:37   I mean, like, obviously the occasional word, right? Like, is going to be...

01:29:42   Okay, mis empanadas. Like, I honestly... It's weird to me that, like, it even tries.

01:29:48   It's not just like, I don't know what you're saying, right? Like, it's very peculiar.

01:29:53   So, yeah, please give me a keyboard where I can choose to type in there in English or in Italian.

01:30:02   And it's so surprising because it's the kind of feature that Apple got right years ago

01:30:06   on the iPhone and the iPad.

01:30:08   And last year they added support for dictation in multiple languages in iOS 13.

01:30:13   So it's not something that doesn't exist.

01:30:16   It just doesn't exist on the watch.

01:30:18   And especially now that we have a cellular watch, with the freedom to use it without

01:30:21   the iPhone, I just think it's obvious that it needs to happen at some point.

01:30:29   So hopefully in watchOS 7.

01:30:31   Yeah, and then there was a whole back and forth between Sylvia and me later.

01:30:39   She got concerned, like she thought that somebody stole my phone, basically.

01:30:44   Apparently you can change the dictation language by force touching, that's what I'm being told in the Discord.

01:30:51   Oh, how would I know, right? Force touching? See, that's the problem. Just give me a button.

01:30:56   Is that too hard? Also, can you really change? So if I press on the microphone...

01:31:03   Oh, look at that! You can choose a language. Of course I had no idea.

01:31:06   So there you go.

01:31:08   Well, okay, so there's two things here. Yeah, okay, that's great. You can do that.

01:31:12   It should be detecting it. Like, Apple has a system for that. Like, it exists in iOS,

01:31:17   as you said, right? Like, the detection of a language. It would be good if you could

01:31:23   do that rather than needing to manage.

01:31:24   So all this time I could have dictated just...

01:31:26   You've got half the way there. Just by long pressing. Wow.

01:31:28   Mm-hmm. I think that says something about, you know, hiding functionality behind the

01:31:33   first press, but, you know, discussion for another time. So what I want to know, are

01:31:39   you now calling Sylvia "Miss Empanada's" telephone around the house? Is that like a

01:31:44   cute nickname? I am. I am. I am not. Honestly, I know that empanadas are like a

01:31:54   a Mexican food, I don't think I know what they are.

01:31:57   - They're really nice.

01:31:58   You would like an empanada.

01:32:00   - I guess I would.

01:32:02   I do like Mexican food. - I think you would.

01:32:03   You would like an empanada, I'm telling you that.

01:32:05   - Okay, that's good information to have.

01:32:08   - One day, Federico, we will eat empanadas together.

01:32:11   - One day.

01:32:12   - Until then, if you wanna find links in the show notes,

01:32:15   head on over to the website at relay.fm/connected/295

01:32:20   while you're there.

01:32:21   There's a bunch of fun activities you can take part in.

01:32:23   you can become a member to support the show directly and get access to that

01:32:26   Relay FM members at Discord, which is a whole lot of fun.

01:32:29   You can send us an email with feedback or a follow-up or you can find us on Twitter. Myke is there as

01:32:36   I-M-Y-K-E. Myke is the host of a bunch of shows here on Relay FM.

01:32:41   You can find Federico on Twitter sometimes at Vitici, V-I-T-I-C-C-I.

01:32:46   He is the editor-in-chief of MacStories.net.

01:32:49   You can find me there is ismh and my writing at 512 pixels dotnet. I'd like our sponsors this week

01:32:57   Pingdom and bombus and until next time gentlemen say goodbye. I think we did you cheerio adios