264: Trash Forever


00:00:00   (upbeat music)

00:00:02   - Hello and welcome to Connected.

00:00:10   My name is Steven Hackett, I'm your host.

00:00:12   I live in the South, so my voice is different

00:00:14   from that of my co-host.

00:00:16   I'm gonna introduce them in a second,

00:00:17   I'm gonna leave them hanging out there

00:00:18   where I tell you this episode is brought to you

00:00:20   by our fine sponsors, ExpressVPN, FreshBooks, and Bombas.

00:00:25   This is an even episode, so even episodes means

00:00:28   Federico gets to go first.

00:00:29   Hi Federico.

00:00:30   Hi man from the south.

00:00:33   Is that a new thing?

00:00:34   I don't know.

00:00:35   It just came out.

00:00:36   And it's an odd episode next week.

00:00:39   So this week Myke has to wait till last.

00:00:41   Myke, how are you?

00:00:43   I'm from the south too.

00:00:45   You're from the south of the North Pole.

00:00:48   I'm in the south of London.

00:00:50   We're an international show.

00:00:52   You can't just say I'm from the south.

00:00:55   Well, you can if you're American-centric, like many people in the world are.

00:00:59   Right, well, but that's a problem, though.

00:01:02   You need to accept that everybody can't just—

00:01:04   I'm from the American side.

00:01:05   Hey, don't pin me down.

00:01:07   This show has two-thirds non-American hosts.

00:01:11   That's true.

00:01:12   About number.

00:01:13   So, take that.

00:01:14   You need to accept the reality that other continents exist.

00:01:17   I accept it.

00:01:18   Who do you think you're talking to?

00:01:19   I'm not Casey.

00:01:20   Well, you know, but you just said "the South."

00:01:23   The Ameri- eh, fine.

00:01:25   Right?

00:01:26   You said it.

00:01:28   We're only doing this because of what you said.

00:01:30   It's like it was a decision you made and now you-

00:01:32   It wasn't even a decision, it was coming out of my face.

00:01:34   I was like I don't know what's happening.

00:01:36   It's just-

00:01:37   Your brain made the decision.

00:01:38   Yeah, I've had a very uh-

00:01:39   Is that how you produce podcasts?

00:01:41   Very strange couple of days, just coming out on the show.

00:01:44   Strange is good, we like a little bit of strange around here.

00:01:48   Who doesn't?

00:01:49   We are gonna start with follow up.

00:01:52   First follow up.

00:01:53   (laughing)

00:01:55   You okay?

00:01:57   You good?

00:01:59   - Yeah.

00:02:00   - Ready to move on?

00:02:01   - Mm-hmm.

00:02:02   - The first point of follow up involves the Apple Watch.

00:02:05   We've been talking about this, I don't know,

00:02:07   for two years now about how the new watches

00:02:09   seem to have pretty mediocre battery life.

00:02:12   Some people have reported a pretty good increase

00:02:16   in battery life by restoring the watch

00:02:17   and setting it up as new.

00:02:19   Last week I promised that I would do that

00:02:21   my wife's watch we just moved her from a series 3 to a series 5 and I just restored it from the

00:02:26   backup because it was pretty easy. As a sidebar that whole process is way better than it used to

00:02:30   be because the health stuff syncs with iCloud now so you're not going to lose things like

00:02:35   way better than it used to be. And the way that she put it to me just a few minutes ago is that

00:02:42   restoring it made the watch battery life acceptable but not great. Like it's I think she it's still

00:02:49   not as good as her series 3 but it's way better than it was so you may have luck with that it's

00:02:56   really not too bad to restore a watch from nothing like there's not that much stuff right it's not

00:03:02   like setting up a phone so maybe you'll have luck with that it does seem like some more people have

00:03:07   reported that the watch os 6.1 beta is really what is going to to make this better for everybody

00:03:14   that'll be out at some point i'm not going to put a beta version of watch os on her watch because

00:03:18   because that process is really scary.

00:03:20   But it's hopefully coming.

00:03:23   So you may have luck if you restore it and set it up

00:03:25   as new.

00:03:26   It seemed to help her, but I don't think that's a guarantee.

00:03:30   I mean, clearly this is like some weird software bug

00:03:32   that affects people differently.

00:03:34   And hopefully Apple has a fix for it out pretty soon.

00:03:37   I've been running the 6.1 beta.

00:03:39   It's fine, really.

00:03:42   Battery is good.

00:03:44   The installation process is still terrible, honestly.

00:03:47   But it's fine. I just I have one issue a few days ago. I was out with my friends at dinner

00:03:59   and I noticed that the watch started draining the battery faster than usual. And so I thought,

00:04:06   oh, it must be because there's poor reception here. But then I thought about it and realized

00:04:11   it doesn't really matter because I have my phone with me. So it's definitely not like

00:04:16   Like when you're in a place with poor reception,

00:04:18   your phone would start draining the battery faster

00:04:20   because it's trying to find the network.

00:04:22   - Absolutely.

00:04:23   - But that doesn't, it's not like that with the watch.

00:04:27   The watch was paired to my phone,

00:04:28   so I have no idea why that particular night

00:04:32   the watch was draining the battery faster,

00:04:34   but that was the only instance,

00:04:36   maybe it was doing some weird things that day.

00:04:39   I have no idea, but otherwise it's been okay.

00:04:42   I'm not suggesting that you put a bit on Murray's watch.

00:04:45   No, that seems... I'm not gonna... I mean that does not seem like a good idea to me.

00:04:50   I don't even know how you do it. I mean I guess you... Does the phone have to be on an iOS beta?

00:04:55   Uh, no. You go to the developer website.

00:04:58   Aren't you not supposed to have the watch and iPhone out of step though?

00:05:04   I think if you have a watch beta you should also be running the concurrent beta version of iOS.

00:05:12   That's what I thought too, but I've never done it.

00:05:14   Yeah, Underscore told me that once, like you shouldn't.

00:05:17   I mean, it's not an impossible thing to do.

00:05:20   Like, I think you can do it, but it is advised not to do that,

00:05:23   like to have them kind of in lockstep.

00:05:25   I think it's it's advised, but I'm pretty sure that

00:05:28   I've had my phone on stable on a stable release

00:05:32   and the watch on the beta and vice versa before.

00:05:34   I think it is allowed unless you're doing things like, let's say, for example,

00:05:37   that you're keeping iOS 12 on the watch and you want to put on the phone

00:05:42   and you want to put watchOS 6 on the watch,

00:05:44   that is not possible because you likely need to install 13.

00:05:48   But for a point release beta,

00:05:51   I think it's possible to stay behind,

00:05:53   but it doesn't really matter for me

00:05:54   because I'm also on the 13.2 beta.

00:05:56   - Hey, where's my emoji?

00:05:57   - What about your emoji?

00:05:58   - I feel like we should have emoji now.

00:06:00   Where are they? - No, you're too early.

00:06:02   It's usually like a point update.

00:06:05   - But we've already had one of those.

00:06:07   - No, but iOS 13 was a dumpster fire,

00:06:10   So you have to discount the first point update because they just fixed it.

00:06:13   So let me call Jeremy.

00:06:15   Let me present you with exhibit A, your honor.

00:06:19   I was browsing Instagram yesterday

00:06:22   and I noticed that Mr.

00:06:24   Jeremy Burge is in America. Yes.

00:06:28   Not only is he in America, he's at Apple.

00:06:30   Maybe he brought the emoji to Apple.

00:06:32   Maybe he did. Oh, maybe he has to hand deliver them.

00:06:35   Here you go. And then off he goes.

00:06:37   Is this Santa emoji?

00:06:39   Yeah.

00:06:39   It's like, have you been good kids around here?

00:06:42   I have exhibit two, your honor.

00:06:45   Is this what we're doing now?

00:06:46   Yeah.

00:06:46   B, because I started with A, so--

00:06:48   Item--

00:06:50   8.5.

00:06:52   So in 2017, in October, October 6, 2017,

00:06:57   Apple announced iOS 11.1 with new emoji.

00:07:01   This is my point.

00:07:02   It is both 0.1 and October.

00:07:05   - Quit interrupting me, Your Honor.

00:07:08   Is that how court--

00:07:09   - It's not the honor, it's--

00:07:10   - Overruled.

00:07:11   - Hey, I'm the chief Ricky, so I will speak when I want to.

00:07:14   - Then don't call me Your Honor.

00:07:16   - Doesn't grant you judicial benefits.

00:07:18   - Oh, I think you need to read the contract, my friend.

00:07:22   In 2018, iOS 12.1 had a new emoji,

00:07:25   and that was announced on October 2nd.

00:07:28   So it is time.

00:07:30   I mean, so look, 13.1, I think you can just discount,

00:07:34   because 13.0 was so bad and wasn't even on every device.

00:07:38   So my assumption would be that it would be in 13.2.

00:07:41   So maybe we see this sometime next week,

00:07:43   and there's a 13.2 beta that includes them

00:07:46   for the first time.

00:07:48   It's about right.

00:07:49   Don't they-- to my memory, the beta

00:07:53   never has the emoji in them.

00:07:54   Like it just is put in the GM.

00:07:56   Is that right?

00:07:57   Yeah, they do, because we always end up

00:07:59   installing the beta for the new emoji.

00:08:00   And there's always a period where your emoji are

00:08:02   for other people. Oh yeah I don't know what I'm talking about. So maybe there'll be a new 13.2

00:08:08   beta or maybe it'll be 13.3 maybe that'll come out you know in a couple weeks too. Or maybe it's like

00:08:13   it's always like 0.2 points like beta two or something like it's not like the ever it tends

00:08:19   to be pretty soon right? Yeah. Isn't that right? Uh-huh so I think that it is uh it's definitely due

00:08:26   any day now maybe it could be today could be new emoji day. Oh wouldn't that be a good day for

00:08:31   for everybody. Which by the way, the new emoji means that we're soon gonna play a game. Yes.

00:08:39   Hmm. I hadn't even thought of that. Yeah. Get ready everyone. You know what emoji means?

00:08:46   It means Federico's getting another weird tattoo. I haven't looked. I promise you guys

00:08:54   I wouldn't look at the emoji preview a few months ago and I didn't look. I think I only

00:08:59   caught a glimpse of a couple of them. I already forgot, honestly. So I am completely new to

00:09:07   what is going on with emoji this year. So it should be fun.

00:09:10   It's going to be great. I'm so excited.

00:09:13   That's one of my favorite episodes all year.

00:09:15   We only did it one time, right?

00:09:18   It was still a favorite.

00:09:20   I'm not saying, like, I'm not just trying to really unnecessarily correct you. I'm asking

00:09:26   the question.

00:09:27   We only did it once, yeah.

00:09:30   Okay.

00:09:31   Well, actually, we only did it once.

00:09:33   Federico, you have been on a Deep Fusion world tour explaining Deep Fusion to everybody.

00:09:39   So you hung out with our friend Tyler Stallman on his podcast on episode 66 of the Stallman

00:09:45   podcast.

00:09:46   That is in my queue.

00:09:47   I've not made it to that yet.

00:09:48   But how did that go?

00:09:49   And do you have anything else about Deep Fusion that we want to address here?

00:09:54   Well, it's more like Tyler explained deep fusion to me. I didn't do much explaining.

00:10:02   No, that was a fun conversation, especially because I, I have the 13.2 beta on my phone,

00:10:09   but I wasn't really sure how to understand like, when is the fusion being triggered?

00:10:14   And like, what's the way to think about diffusion and night mode and smart HDR, sort of these

00:10:20   three modes that the camera now supports, but only one of them is not actually shown

00:10:25   in the UI, which would be diffusion. So that was a fun conversation. And it sort of clarified

00:10:31   for me a lot of a lot of the the challenges that I've had with the camera app. So ever

00:10:40   since I installed the beta and since talking to Tyler, I disabled capture outside of the

00:10:45   frame because I really want to make sure that whenever possible all my pictures are using

00:10:52   DeepFusion. That's unfortunate because I really like the idea of having this extra data available.

00:11:00   But until I'm guessing the iPhone 12 or whatever, this is not going to be possible because the

00:11:05   two features cannot coexist. So I've been listening to Tyler's recommendations and I've

00:11:14   been working on something related to photos that's been really challenging for me and

00:11:21   it took a bunch of time and organization and I know that it sounds extremely vague right

00:11:28   now but it should be fun and it should be ready very soon. So hopefully we're going

00:11:34   to talk about it in the next couple of weeks is all I'm going to say. And you guys have

00:11:40   seen a preview. It should be fun. It's something that I've never done before,

00:11:43   and it's something that I hope sort of becomes the tradition for me. So I should

00:11:47   have a... it should hopefully be out in the very near future.

00:11:53   200,000 words. See, it's not gonna be that long text-wise. So yeah.

00:12:02   Famous last words, buddy.

00:12:04   (both laughing)

00:12:07   Yeah.

00:12:08   Now I'm excited to see it.

00:12:09   I have not put the beta on my phone.

00:12:11   I'm just sort of,

00:12:13   I'm sort of tired of running betas at this point,

00:12:15   but I am really looking forward to seeing this

00:12:18   because it's in this weird mode between,

00:12:22   like night mode is gonna go off,

00:12:24   but it's still like too much light for that,

00:12:26   like sort of that zone.

00:12:27   Where I think we're gonna see this the most often

00:12:29   is like just shooting pictures in our houses, right?

00:12:30   Like taking a picture of somebody

00:12:32   the dinner table like yeah that I'm excited about because those pictures

00:12:36   always look sort of just okay but it's like in an interesting way like these

00:12:40   are the photos that are most important to most people yeah right absolutely

00:12:46   which is just very simple just photos like around the dinner table or whatever

00:12:53   like these are the photos that actually matter to people totally and so that that

00:12:57   I think is gonna be really fun and I will disable shoot outside the frame for

00:13:02   that benefit, even though it does make me sad because I do like the idea, as you said,

00:13:07   of having that data there.

00:13:08   But I think DeepFusion is going to win out for most people, which is why I think it's

00:13:11   off by default, because I think most people would benefit more from DeepFusion than being

00:13:17   able to crop out a little bit.

00:13:18   Moving...

00:13:19   Oh, one last thing on DeepFusion.

00:13:21   I just wanted to recommend a YouTube video that I really like that helped explain it

00:13:25   to me, which was a TOD Today, Jonathan Morrison.

00:13:28   He did a good explainer video, kind of.

00:13:30   that was where I understood a lot more about what it was. He did a better job of explaining

00:13:36   the benefits of Deep Fusion than Phil Schiller did, which is kind of hilarious. But it's

00:13:41   a really good video. So if you want to get a little bit more explanation, then I really

00:13:46   recommend going and checking that out.

00:13:49   He does great work. If you're not subscribed to his channel, you should totally do it.

00:13:53   He does a lot of Apple stuff, but he covers other stuff too. I'm a big fan.

00:13:58   Me too.

00:13:59   is a real nice guy. Look, it's just a week of tiny topics and then one giant topic.

00:14:03   We're not out of the follow-up zone yet. Yeah, there's just a lot of little things this week

00:14:07   and then one big thing. But before we move on, let me tell you about our first sponsor.

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00:16:14   Hey guys, listen to this.

00:16:17   Listen to this.

00:16:18   Do you know what that is?

00:16:21   You crack your knuckles. That's a folding phone my friends. It's here the sound it makes yeah

00:16:27   Yeah, yeah, it's significant it's significant yeah, I can do it one hand I

00:16:34   Picked up the galaxy fold last night. I've been publishing some images and some short videos on Instagram. I

00:16:42   Do not yet have

00:16:45   enough

00:16:48   Thoughts - I have not been able to put all my thoughts together yet. Okay

00:16:51   So on next week's episode

00:16:54   We will be talking about the galaxy fault. So you're gonna share a comprehensive review. I will share a set of thoughts

00:17:02   Which are mine

00:17:05   in

00:17:07   Let's imagine kind of like the tv-os review. Let's say we like which was great. Thank you. Great job with that

00:17:13   Thank you very much. I hope that I can do it a good enough job again. Okay, I

00:17:17   I'm excited to hear more about it. I've enjoyed watching your stories about it. I will say and we'll get into it

00:17:23   But my initial impression is that that front outside screen just makes me sad every time

00:17:30   I see it like funny little thing that that's great. I'm not gonna lie. It's

00:17:34   It's a funny look like great

00:17:36   It's sometimes you see a product and you know instantly what will be better about the future version and that's what it is

00:17:43   that is

00:17:45   Even more than the inside screen right which has levied a lot of criticism

00:17:50   I am in complete agreement with you that the thing that will improve faster is the outside screen than the inside screen because

00:17:58   It is a usable thing

00:18:01   But it's kind of hilarious, but we'll get there next week. I don't that has just been what I think about every time

00:18:07   I see it. Yeah, okay. I have a question for y'all

00:18:10   Has Google Docs been updated to include multi window support? No. Yes has it. Oh

00:18:16   Don't do that to me. I was so excited

00:18:19   No, I have been checking the update notes now

00:18:25   Which I normally don't look at and it's kind of a pain in the rear

00:18:28   To get to the update section in the App Store now unless you like haptic touch on the icon it does a shortcut

00:18:34   Under the app icon to do it, but like going through the App Store

00:18:39   it's like three or four taps now to get to that, which I guess they're just

00:18:42   trying to downplay it, but it's, um, it's frustrating to have to dig through it.

00:18:46   It is frustrating because I don't like to have automatic app updates.

00:18:51   Like really?

00:18:52   Yeah.

00:18:53   Wow.

00:18:54   I want to see what's happening to applications.

00:18:56   Like I don't want to just open them and then be surprised by what is there.

00:19:02   Exactly.

00:19:03   What Myke said.

00:19:04   I do keep automatic updates on the second iPad, which I use for reading or watching

00:19:10   movies or playing games because I like that's the second iPad, but my primary one and on

00:19:15   the iPhone, I keep them disabled.

00:19:18   Okay.

00:19:19   Do you let it badge?

00:19:20   So you see how many are available and you go in and check or do you just open it every

00:19:24   couple of days?

00:19:25   I let it badge, but you typically you have to refresh it.

00:19:28   I probably go like every day, just like it's like a habit.

00:19:32   I come looking for something, you know, I come,

00:19:33   you know when you look at your device,

00:19:34   you're like, I don't know what to do right now.

00:19:36   It's like, oh, check the app store, so.

00:19:37   - Yeah, that's fair.

00:19:39   - I created a custom icon on the home screen

00:19:42   that runs my shortcut to open the updates page directly.

00:19:46   - Nice.

00:19:47   - Kind of a lot of times a day, I tap on the icon

00:19:48   and I go to the update screen and I pull to refresh.

00:19:51   And it's also nice that in 13, you can delete apps

00:19:55   from the updates page itself.

00:19:59   You can just swipe to the left

00:20:00   and you can delete an app from there.

00:20:02   - Yeah, that's a nice feature.

00:20:04   - It's also easier to get to your subscriptions,

00:20:07   that's now in settings.

00:20:08   So the shortcut I had for that

00:20:09   has sort of gone out the window for me.

00:20:11   I wanted to talk briefly about the rumors of an iPhone SE 2.

00:20:16   I would have said in the past that was a bad iPhone name,

00:20:19   but you guys have iPhone 11 Pro Max phones,

00:20:22   so all bets are off.

00:20:24   I think this is a really interesting story

00:20:25   because I think there's still people out there,

00:20:28   'cause every time I talk about this,

00:20:29   here you know people say oh I love my SE because they really like the older

00:20:32   five-inch form factor but or four inch how big is that phone four inch screen

00:20:37   that is not what this is so this is taking the idea of the SE so the SE came

00:20:43   out it was the guts of the iPhone 6s but in the chassis of the iPhone 5s this is

00:20:49   seemingly going to be a similar thing some of the iPhone 11 in the body of the

00:20:53   iPhone 8. So it is SE like sort of a classic design at this point but it's

00:20:59   not going to be the old smaller form factor it's going to be the same size as

00:21:03   the 6, 6s, 7 and 8. I found this really interesting my wife used an iPhone SE

00:21:10   and then I bought her an iPhone 8 because her SE was just falling apart she

00:21:13   wanted a better camera and she sees the types of pictures I can take but she

00:21:18   doesn't want she doesn't like face ID and the gestures I moved to her an iPhone

00:21:22   for a little while and it was one of the few times that she was like I actually

00:21:26   voice like a strong opinion about technology most of the time she's like

00:21:29   just whatever she's like I don't like this I want a home button and so she's

00:21:33   on an iPhone 8 and it would be great if there's an iPhone SE 2 because it's the

00:21:38   same size she already has but you know better CPU much better camera the rumor

00:21:45   is a single lens camera which makes sense this would be a cheaper phone I

00:21:48   I think this phone would do really well. And I think if you're still holding on to the iPhone se size like I

00:21:55   Love y'all, but it's time to move on like the world is has moved on from that size

00:22:00   This is not this is gonna be yeah

00:22:02   Apple's not gonna make it someone might make it but Apple's not gonna be the company that makes that type of device anymore

00:22:08   I'm afraid to tell you yeah, which I mean it I I understand that really stinks if that's what you're into but it's just

00:22:17   Time has moved on from that that form factor, but I think it'll do well

00:22:21   I you know it seems like there's maybe some stuff lining up for a spring event

00:22:25   We can talk about that maybe next time, but I think this could be a spring release that the original iPhone SE was

00:22:31   You know mid-cycle to the 6s, and I think there are a lot of people who?

00:22:36   Have an iPhone 6s or maybe a 7 who would just want to stay with what they know and this would be a nice option

00:22:44   especially if it's cheaper than the iPhone XR is.

00:22:47   Yeah, I mean, I don't know how much cheaper it's gonna, it will realistically be.

00:22:54   Like the SE, to my memory, wasn't that much cheaper, right?

00:22:58   No, it basically slotted in as the lowest price point, but not by much.

00:23:04   Yeah.

00:23:04   And right now you can get an iPhone 8 in the US starting at, I'm waiting for the page to load,

00:23:13   starting at $449 it looks like for the 64 gigabyte model so maybe this is $379

00:23:25   or $399 because the 8, I guess it depends if they replace the 8 or not in the

00:23:32   line if they just replace the 8 with this and it would be the $449 price

00:23:35   point but maybe they position it a little bit lower maybe it starts at 32

00:23:39   gigs instead of 64 for like a really entry-level price and markets outside

00:23:44   the US but it'll be interesting to see the relationship between the 8 and the

00:23:48   SC because they're going to look the same assumedly and even with the single

00:23:52   camera maybe it's confusing I don't know but I find it interesting I think they

00:23:56   should do this because they're people who want a home button who want touch ID

00:23:59   who wants something cheap but the iPhone 8 now is two years old and maybe they

00:24:04   want something that is better, faster, better camera.

00:24:08   So I'm a fan of this move by Apple,

00:24:11   and hopefully it pans out for people

00:24:13   who want something without Face ID.

00:24:16   I have a controversial opinion that I shared on Twitter,

00:24:20   and it didn't, it was very, very interesting.

00:24:24   This came about because a bunch of apps

00:24:25   have been adding dark mode.

00:24:26   I've been using dark mode on my phone actually quite a bit.

00:24:29   I don't like it on the Mac.

00:24:30   I don't even like it on the iPad,

00:24:32   but I kind of like it on the phone.

00:24:34   Apps have been slowly moving to it.

00:24:37   And this thought came to me after Instagram

00:24:40   added dark mode this week,

00:24:41   which wasn't in their release notes.

00:24:43   They just did it as Instagram does.

00:24:45   And it's got pure black background.

00:24:48   And that does a couple of things.

00:24:50   It really makes the pictures pop in a way

00:24:51   that's like sort of to me a little overwhelming.

00:24:55   But I find, this is my opinion,

00:24:58   they underline that is that I prefer dark modes that use a dark gray color like the

00:25:06   lighter dark mode in overcast or in I think um hello weather does it and a couple others

00:25:13   over true black which on an oled like okay so here's it here all the tweets I've gotten

00:25:18   back you're an idiot oled with black saves battery whatever someone say you're an idiot

00:25:25   Someone yeah, they're like oh, it's it's because you can save energy moron like it was one of those things that went wide

00:25:30   And it was like beyond

00:25:32   My normal followers although some of those have called me idiot suit which is totally fair sometimes

00:25:36   But it's um I like the look of the gray because even though it's a slightly less contrast

00:25:42   I find the really high contrast of like pure black and then pure white text actually a little off-putting and a little hard to read

00:25:49   And I like something a little bit lighter so I can 512 pixels the dark mode there

00:25:54   I actually sampled the dark mode color used in Mac OS itself and I used the same color

00:26:00   So does Jason Snow actually use the same background color and our dark modes for our sites and I find that easier to read and less

00:26:06   jarring than

00:26:08   True black and I'm really curious what the two of you think

00:26:12   I am mostly of the belief that true black is

00:26:16   My preference like not wait. I don't know why I said that true black is my preference. That's what I prefer

00:26:23   Even on an iPad I turn it on because then I like visual consistency of what I'm seeing on my iPhone.

00:26:29   I prefer if I'm going to have a dark mode, I want the dark mode to be dark, not just grey.

00:26:35   And I love the dark mode on Instagram. I think it looks exactly as I wanted them to make it look.

00:26:41   That's my feeling on things. Sorry to say, Steven.

00:26:46   Yeah, well, I mean, I mean, sometimes I guess it depends. So Max stories, I'm using a dark

00:26:55   gray, just like 512 and six colors. Some apps, I do believe, though, that the true black

00:27:02   is beautiful and really helps the content pop. So whether it's Instagram or Apple Music

00:27:09   or you know, we've seen other media heavy apps use true black. And I think it's really

00:27:13   functional to that to make sure that artwork or photos or thumbnails can really pop off

00:27:22   the screen. I do not. So I've been seeing some conversations around mostly on Twitter

00:27:30   of people complaining about true black is bad because of the OLED smearing. Is that

00:27:36   the name of the issue? And really, and this may be my controversial opinion here. I do

00:27:43   believe that people like most people will never notice all that smearing in real life.

00:27:49   It is something it's a designer problem. And the it is my opinion that the people who talk

00:27:56   about and discuss all that smearing are the same people who notice and come issues and

00:28:01   complain about SF symbols. I don't see it like I've been really been really trying to

00:28:09   to see the issues with SF symbols.

00:28:11   Maybe it's my eyesight that has gone terribly bad

00:28:14   over the past couple of years.

00:28:15   I honestly don't see issues in those glyphs.

00:28:18   Like I just don't see it.

00:28:19   I'm sorry.

00:28:20   All it's mirroring, yes, I kinda see

00:28:22   if I really pay attention to it,

00:28:24   but if I'm just using an iPhone, I never see it.

00:28:27   I don't even know what I'm looking for.

00:28:30   It looks beautiful, it's black and white.

00:28:31   And yes, I agree, for long form text, it's not ideal.

00:28:35   It's too high contrast and it may be

00:28:38   a little too tiring on the eyes for longer reading sessions.

00:28:43   But for Instagram, I mean, you're just gonna

00:28:45   read a few captions and a few usernames.

00:28:47   It's totally fine and it looks great.

00:28:49   And it looks beautiful on the OLED display

00:28:51   because it's actually true black.

00:28:54   So some apps like my RSS client or Mac stories,

00:28:58   well, Mac stories is not an app, but you get the point.

00:29:01   In some contexts, I do prefer dark gray,

00:29:04   but shorter bits of text like Twitter or Instagram,

00:29:09   I keep the true black enabled,

00:29:13   and I prefer it because it's beautiful.

00:29:15   - I mean, my thought is if you are going--

00:29:16   - The opinion is not that controversial, see what I mean?

00:29:18   - No, I don't think it is either.

00:29:19   Other people responded, you're the only one who thinks that,

00:29:22   or everyone thinks that way, so I retweeted both examples

00:29:24   of that 'cause it made me laugh.

00:29:26   (laughing)

00:29:27   I actually really like the way that Tweetbot

00:29:29   and Overcast do it, where you have options, right?

00:29:32   So like overcast, you have like a dark mode,

00:29:35   then you have like a basically pure black mode.

00:29:38   And I think if you're gonna build themes into your app,

00:29:40   giving users options, not only to set it against

00:29:44   or with the system setting,

00:29:45   like we spoke about a few weeks ago,

00:29:47   or pure black or gray,

00:29:50   'cause like on an LCD, like an iPhone 11,

00:29:53   the gray actually may look better than the true black,

00:29:55   'cause sometimes that's a little weird on an LCD.

00:29:58   So I think having the options is nice,

00:30:00   but it is good to see major apps adopting dark mode faster than I think people

00:30:05   anticipated. Certainly than I, than I anticipated. All right, Myke,

00:30:09   how is Reminders treating the Hurley household?

00:30:11   Hey, sorry about that little interruption. Somebody,

00:30:21   we won't say who, but, but it wasn't me or Myke.

00:30:25   Their power went out while we were recording.

00:30:27   So Steven, I think you'd asked me about reminders.

00:30:30   I did. So how are you using it?

00:30:32   You and I both talked about switching to it.

00:30:35   How's that going?

00:30:37   I have not done anything of it yet.

00:30:39   And I want you guys opinions on this, but I did want to just recount a little story

00:30:43   because I encouraged Adina to upgrade reminders

00:30:48   because she uses reminders.

00:30:50   And I was like, well, you should try

00:30:52   trying out the new reminders.

00:30:55   She uses reminders in Fantastical.

00:30:57   but never uses the reminders app.

00:31:00   She'd never used the reminders app

00:31:01   because the reminders app was not good before,

00:31:03   but she liked the reminders functionality

00:31:05   inside fantastic accounts.

00:31:06   Like, oh, you should check out the new reminders now.

00:31:09   So she opened it up and she initially,

00:31:13   which I thought was hilarious,

00:31:15   immediately just pressed the button to dismiss the upgrade.

00:31:18   Right?

00:31:19   Like without even looking, she was just like, no.

00:31:22   And I was like, no way.

00:31:23   No, you want to do that.

00:31:25   We went back in and there was a button,

00:31:26   a little blue button, pressed upgrade.

00:31:28   All of her reminders deleted immediately.

00:31:31   Yep.

00:31:33   And then very slowly came back.

00:31:36   What is this user experience?

00:31:39   That is an unacceptable user experience to make people believe

00:31:45   you have deleted everything.

00:31:47   Like, fake it, just fake it.

00:31:50   Keep them on the screen, even if in the background, iCloud is copying them from

00:31:54   the old...

00:31:55   Show me a screen with a spinner until it's done.

00:32:00   But like showing me there were 22 reminders, now there are zero reminders,

00:32:05   is an unacceptable way to treat your users.

00:32:09   Agreed.

00:32:10   Like that was bananas to me because it doesn't warn you,

00:32:14   right? You don't get told that that's going to happen.

00:32:18   And if that is what is intended to happen, that is wild. If it was an accident,

00:32:23   Fine, but I doubt it.

00:32:25   But that is just like a really just upsetting way

00:32:29   to do an upgrade of anything,

00:32:30   is to make you think you've lost it all.

00:32:32   - Still having iCloud related issues,

00:32:35   so you may remember.

00:32:36   Yeah, so they just, they came back recently.

00:32:40   So I should say, I am now using the public stable version

00:32:45   of Catalina, the stable version of iPadOS,

00:32:47   but I have the beta of 13.2 on my phone.

00:32:53   my notes are not syncing correctly between the iPhone and other devices anymore,

00:32:59   which shouldn't happen, because there's no format change, right, between the beta of 13.2 and 13.1,

00:33:11   so it's not like I'm trying to sync between 13 and 12, for example.

00:33:16   But I'm using a beta, so there may be that something is going on.

00:33:21   And it's even weirder because like if I wait a day or two, eventually I will see the notes

00:33:28   reappear, like the same notes appear on my iPad or on my iPhone and vice versa, but right

00:33:34   now my iPad is missing four or five notes, I think.

00:33:40   And this is part of a bigger discussion, two points that I wanted to make.

00:33:45   First of all, I really wish that Apple could do a better job at letting apps like Reminders

00:33:52   or Notes sync in the background all the time.

00:33:56   So many times, I open Notes or I open Reminders, and this is especially true if you're trying

00:34:02   to do a new setup of an iOS device, you open the app and then you see all the changes coming

00:34:09   through.

00:34:10   They very rarely happen fully in the background.

00:34:14   And I wish that they could design a better experience for that.

00:34:19   But also, I want to ask, I guess, you guys and early servers, do we still believe that,

00:34:27   even if it's not necessary, that it's good practice to do a clean install of iOS every

00:34:34   couple of years?

00:34:35   Because my question is, and I'm not sure if somebody has any way to double check this

00:34:41   or to confirm this. The theory that iOS accumulates, you know, some sort of system junk or craft

00:34:50   over the years. Is that actually true? Because it really does seem to help.

00:34:55   There are people, this is like, I feel like this is one of those holy wars, right, where

00:34:59   like people will tell you either way what they think about this. My feeling is, I don't

00:35:04   do it, because, and my feeling on this remains exactly the same as when the "restore your

00:35:09   phone meme was a thing a few years ago for me. I don't feel like I should have to.

00:35:15   Yes, you don't have to.

00:35:16   I believe that the software should be... no, but like I don't feel like I should be penalized

00:35:21   for doing this when Apple pushes it to me as their default experience, right? Like you're

00:35:26   supposed to move from device to device. They have multiple ways to bring the information

00:35:31   over. So like I will never do it because I don't think I should have to do it. And I

00:35:35   I don't want to. I don't want to go through the aggravation of like,

00:35:39   trying to spend like a week trying to get these devices set the way they used to

00:35:44   be. Like that's just, I don't want to do that.

00:35:46   But then again, first time I haven't done the clean install on my iPad and the

00:35:51   iPhone and look what happened. All kinds of issues.

00:35:55   No, but this happened. This happened to you during the beta.

00:35:58   Like something during the beta process messed this up for you.

00:36:01   But why is it still happening?

00:36:04   Because your iCloud account is messed up.

00:36:06   Because you shoved a bunch of base 64 through there and tore everything up.

00:36:11   Like a shredder, you put it through the base 64 shredder.

00:36:14   Look, we've known this from the past, right? From betas, where if you get

00:36:20   something, if you do something on a beta with your iCloud account,

00:36:24   it can mess you up for a long period of time because something goes crazy

00:36:29   in there and then that's just the way it is, right?

00:36:31   like which is why people always say don't use your actual accounts, blah,

00:36:35   blah, blah. Uh, and that's,

00:36:37   and I think that's what the situation that you're in is you had,

00:36:40   something's corrupt somewhere and that is,

00:36:42   that is the life that you're living now.

00:36:44   It really feels to me like during this, especially this development cycle,

00:36:49   but even previous ones that Apple sort of loses sight of how important iCloud

00:36:53   actually is. Like,

00:36:55   if you really try to use an iOS or Mac OS device without iCloud,

00:37:00   It's actually difficult.

00:37:01   There's so much that is tied to that now,

00:37:05   and it feels like that, and I don't know,

00:37:08   but it just feels like that doesn't have

00:37:10   this sense of importance that it should

00:37:12   in Apple's development.

00:37:14   Do those people have a seat at the table

00:37:15   when new features are being discussed,

00:37:17   or does whoever's coming with the features,

00:37:19   oh yeah, well, the iCloud team will figure that out.

00:37:21   We're just gonna shove it down their throats.

00:37:24   The idea that you can break your iCloud account

00:37:28   seemingly pretty easily,

00:37:30   and it being basically impossible to fix.

00:37:32   Like Federico, you had to start over

00:37:33   with new iCloud accounts in the past.

00:37:35   Like, that's unacceptable.

00:37:37   Like, A, you don't hear about Google accounts doing that.

00:37:40   I mean, and on Android,

00:37:41   Google accounts are as important as iCloud is here,

00:37:44   but Apple's gotta be better at this stuff

00:37:46   because they're making it deeper

00:37:48   and more thoroughly integrated into everything they make.

00:37:51   - Yeah, and for me specifically,

00:37:54   the issues really seems to be notes,

00:37:57   because I started noticing all kinds of iCloud issues last week.

00:38:01   So for example, my iPad Pro, running the public stable version of 13,

00:38:07   could not complete iCloud backups anymore, or

00:38:11   it was not syncing reminders anymore, so

00:38:15   I tried it all, I rebooted my device,

00:38:18   and what finally fixed it was I needed to sign out

00:38:22   of iCloud and sign back in again and pull in all the changes so

00:38:27   Imagine 22,000 photos from my photo library and all of that from scratch.

00:38:33   So it took a couple of days.

00:38:34   And now everything's fine. It can back up.

00:38:37   Messages are syncing, photos are syncing, reminders are syncing.

00:38:41   Except notes.

00:38:42   And notes is also like...

00:38:45   I love notes and I love... like, I really like using the app,

00:38:48   but all these sync issues that happen time and time again for me,

00:38:53   I really don't know how to fix them. I really don't know what to do.

00:38:55   and it's a shame because I really want to use notes.

00:38:58   But it keeps happening.

00:39:00   What were you using instead though?

00:39:02   Yeah, I don't know. Like, I tried Evernote.

00:39:04   I gave it a hard... I even paid for Evernote.

00:39:06   Bear?

00:39:07   I don't want to use Bear because it's...

00:39:09   Agenda?

00:39:11   I know, right? See, I know that you're saying this almost ironically or sarcastically, but...

00:39:16   No, I'm not. I'm actually legitimately asking you.

00:39:18   I wouldn't use anything. I don't like anything else.

00:39:22   Right, but if you... what else are you gonna... what, no notes?

00:39:26   No, no, I'm gonna keep using notes and suffer.

00:39:29   It's like, it's a toxic relationship that we have, me and notes, but it's my only option.

00:39:36   That's why I have a podcast.

00:39:38   But like, the thing is... okay.

00:39:43   The thing is though, if you can't trust it...

00:39:47   Yeah, I know.

00:39:49   ...then what do you do?

00:39:50   I know, I know. So what I've been doing is I've just been using notes on my phone because

00:39:55   it has an "all" and I sort of use my iPad in "view mode" when eventually it syncs the

00:40:04   notes. So I don't create notes on my iPad. It's an absurd predicament that I'm in right

00:40:11   now. It shouldn't have to be this way. And hopefully, you know, maybe installing the

00:40:16   beta of 13.2 will fix it. My iPad does not have the beta. And you know why my iPad Pro

00:40:22   is not running the beta? Because the beta... many of my shortcuts are crashing the shortcuts

00:40:30   app in 13.2 beta. So... yeah. I guess my main point here is it would be nice every once

00:40:41   in a while not to be on a beta. Not to... just not doing it. Like, imagine like leaving

00:40:49   the current version of iOS the entire summer and upgrading. Yeah, like me. Like you. Like

00:40:56   on my phone? I had no problems with my phone this summer. Yeah, that must be nice. You

00:41:00   know why? Because I was 12. That must be nice. I've had more problems since I upgraded to

00:41:04   the stable version of the 13th. Yeah that must be nice. It is nice. Yeah well anyway we're I feel like

00:41:13   but to bring this back around I do still want to use reminders like it's on my it's just one of

00:41:19   those things where I need to sit down and spend the best part of a day right going through Todoist

00:41:25   and I want to manually re-enter everything. I'm sure that there are tools that people have built

00:41:31   But like I will also see it as an opportunity to sit down and review all of my currently outstanding tasks

00:41:36   and I want to I want to

00:41:38   But to do that

00:41:40   I want to kind of get a good feeling from you both and I feel like I know from you Federico that like

00:41:46   You're very happy with reminders and it's working for you

00:41:49   but I kind of

00:41:51   wonder if you

00:41:53   Yes, I'm very happy with it and I'm using it. I that does not mean that I don't have any complaints about it

00:42:00   Yeah.

00:42:01   Oh no, of course, but I have, you know, everybody has complaints about all sorts of software.

00:42:04   I just wonder if, like, would you encourage me, basically, to try it out?

00:42:10   I have a few questions for my recommendation.

00:42:14   Okay.

00:42:15   How much do you rely on sorting options?

00:42:20   I don't, because Todoist beat that out of me.

00:42:24   I just want all I care about is the next seven days in date order.

00:42:30   OK, so you don't you don't really want to like open a specific list

00:42:34   and sort your tasks within that project.

00:42:37   You don't do it.

00:42:39   No, I actually never do that.

00:42:41   I never I all I care about because I assign due dates to every task.

00:42:45   OK. All I ever care about is the next sort of seven days.

00:42:50   So the the scheduled view of reminders would do the trick for you.

00:42:53   OK, well, yeah, you should do it then.

00:42:57   If the schedule view, I use it all the time.

00:43:01   My complaints were about-- and I guess Steven is probably

00:43:04   going to bring this up-- my complaints were

00:43:06   about the lack of sorting options inside lists,

00:43:10   inside projects, and the half-baked integration

00:43:14   with shortcuts.

00:43:15   But I think you should try it, Myke.

00:43:20   I think you're going to like the subtasks.

00:43:22   I think you're going to like the attachments.

00:43:23   One possible point of frustration for you right now.

00:43:29   If you want to use the attachments, you cannot attach PDF documents or spreadsheets to your tasks.

00:43:37   But I mean, I'm not doing that with Todoist.

00:43:39   OK, then. Well, you should you should try then.

00:43:42   Yes. What I would tend to do and probably what I will continue doing is attaching links to those things.

00:43:49   I know that when you do research you collect a lot of links and you're using Apple notes

00:43:54   for your show notes for your podcasts and stuff like that and I think you would really

00:43:57   enjoy having those rich links in reminders as well.

00:44:02   I definitely would.

00:44:04   I think you should.

00:44:05   And that's one thing.

00:44:06   You know I had that thing a couple of days ago, I spent a bunch of time in shortcuts

00:44:11   and was like finally I can build the shortcut I've always wanted because there's an append

00:44:15   to note but then I remembered.

00:44:16   Oh yeah.

00:44:17   It only appends just text, it doesn't append rich links.

00:44:22   But yeah, shortcuts, I would love that.

00:44:26   Just append when I want to append to note,

00:44:28   if it's a URL, make it a rich URL.

00:44:31   Like I don't just want a text, I love the rich URLs.

00:44:35   But I think I want to try, 'cause you know what?

00:44:39   I really want to be able to easily

00:44:41   like try adding reminders with Siri.

00:44:44   - Yes, yes.

00:44:45   - I would like that.

00:44:47   So, you know, it's little things like that,

00:44:49   or, you know, that remind me about this, you know,

00:44:52   when you're looking at a piece of content

00:44:54   and you say to Siri, that's shipped, right?

00:44:57   Like, hey, remind me about this on,

00:45:00   like, and then it will put it in reminders.

00:45:02   I wanna try all that stuff out,

00:45:03   but I know I'm only really gonna try it properly

00:45:06   if I actually move everything to it.

00:45:08   But I've just, it's one of those things

00:45:10   that I've just yet to do, but now it's out

00:45:11   and I think all of the weirdness would have calmed down.

00:45:15   I've read your chapter about it

00:45:17   and it's made me want it even more.

00:45:19   And so I'm like, I'm thinking about doing it.

00:45:22   But I just wanted to double check

00:45:24   that now you're on the other side of this

00:45:26   that you weren't changing your mind.

00:45:27   - Based on what you replied, I think you should try it.

00:45:32   Take a few days, move yourself over

00:45:34   and set up a few lists, maybe a few groups

00:45:38   for related lists and use the scheduled view.

00:45:42   Learn to use drag and drop inside the app

00:45:46   And my suggestion would be to set up a few shortcuts,

00:45:51   either in the widget or the home screen,

00:45:54   to quickly get to specific lists or,

00:45:57   like for example, one of the things

00:45:59   that you can do with reminders, because it's built in,

00:46:02   you can create a widget.

00:46:04   I have two that shows you a subset of your reminders.

00:46:09   So for context, I have two widgets on my iPad.

00:46:14   One is called Personal Tasks,

00:46:15   and the other is called Work Tasks.

00:46:17   And all it does is it fetches reminders

00:46:21   from specific lists.

00:46:24   All it does, it shows me tasks from my personal lists.

00:46:29   So like grocery, shopping, family,

00:46:33   those like non-work reminders lists.

00:46:36   And the other one, it shows me tasks from podcast,

00:46:39   Mac stories, Club Mac stories, finance,

00:46:42   all that kind of stuff.

00:46:43   So it's a very easy way for me to filter reminders right from the home screen.

00:46:48   It's two actions and it's super easy. It's what you can do with reminders.

00:46:53   So play it. Yeah.

00:46:55   Yeah. I want to try it. I really,

00:46:57   it's been in my mind and I really want to try it.

00:46:59   I have to try Live About Gboard, so I'm going to have to try that too,

00:47:03   because we spoke about this in the Podcastathon.

00:47:07   All of the natural language stuff doesn't work with the PartyQL boards because

00:47:12   you need the quick type bar.

00:47:14   So I need to like also decouple myself from that.

00:47:18   And then I can maybe go for it.

00:47:21   - There's an item in Reminders that may kill it for me.

00:47:26   And I filed some feedback,

00:47:28   but if you have a list of tasks sorted by due date,

00:47:33   tasks with no due date,

00:47:36   so it's undated tasks appear at the top of the list

00:47:40   ahead of upcoming dates.

00:47:41   and I find this a lot, I sort each of my projects by due date.

00:47:45   And a lot of projects have tasks without due date,

00:47:47   something that I need to do in the future.

00:47:49   I just want to park them there.

00:47:51   And putting them ahead of things--

00:47:53   putting a task with no due date ahead

00:47:54   of a task of a due date of two days from now is insane.

00:47:58   No, what I think is insane is that every list

00:48:02   sorts your tasks by creation date.

00:48:06   So to give you an example, one of my lists right now--

00:48:09   and I'm gonna give you the tasks in order.

00:48:12   The first one is due February 1st, 2020.

00:48:17   The second one is due tomorrow.

00:48:21   The third one is due tomorrow.

00:48:23   The fourth one is due today.

00:48:25   The fifth one is due today.

00:48:27   (laughing)

00:48:29   So like, well, then there's no option to sort a list

00:48:33   by due date at all.

00:48:34   Like if you tap the ellipsis button,

00:48:37   It doesn't show you, it doesn't contain any sort option.

00:48:40   And I know that this is creation date

00:48:42   because the first one, the first task,

00:48:45   the one due in 2020 is delete Evernote subscription,

00:48:49   which I set up months ago

00:48:51   when I moved from Evernote to Apple Notes.

00:48:55   So I think this is a very perplexing decision

00:48:58   to not have any sorting feature.

00:49:01   I mean, the same app that has sub-tasks

00:49:05   does not have sorting options.

00:49:07   Todoist does this exact same thing.

00:49:09   On iOS by default, it sorts by creation date, not by due date.

00:49:17   So again, I'm very used to it.

00:49:18   One of the reasons I don't look at lists of specific projects, because I know that that

00:49:23   is useless information for me.

00:49:25   So the schedule view should be nice though.

00:49:30   Who runs their life like this?

00:49:32   Nobody who's on top of things.

00:49:34   Wait, so on iOS you can't set a sort order in Reminder?

00:49:38   You can do it on the Mac.

00:49:39   No, you can't on iOS.

00:49:42   It's just good grief.

00:49:44   Come on, Reminders team.

00:49:45   You rebuilt an application and you put different features on different platforms?

00:49:50   I want this to be good, but it's just, I don't think it's going to be for me yet.

00:49:54   The sorting stuff is critical the way that I think.

00:49:57   It's no different to my current system, so I'm still going to try it because I'm still

00:50:00   excited about it.

00:50:01   I still think it looks like a really good system

00:50:05   for the basics and then beyond.

00:50:07   And I really wanna try an application

00:50:10   that can be so tied into the system.

00:50:13   - My current plea to the Reminders team is,

00:50:17   sorting options inside lists,

00:50:20   file attachments that go beyond JPEGs.

00:50:23   Let me attach a PDF, let me attach a zipper archive,

00:50:27   and rework your shortcuts integration.

00:50:31   Because right now, the shortcut actions for reminders

00:50:35   are based on reminders for iOS 12.

00:50:39   They do not support any of the new features.

00:50:42   So the new URL field, not supported,

00:50:45   groups for lists, not supported, or subtasks.

00:50:51   - What about natural language?

00:50:52   - Well, that you can create using the date action.

00:50:57   shortcuts and it should work like if you... Right, okay. You can sort of fake that.

00:51:03   You can fake that basically and use a magic variable, okay. And sub tasks as well.

00:51:08   So basically the new reminders features of 13 are not

00:51:14   built in shortcuts at all so they should update those. Alright we've got a couple

00:51:20   more things to get through but I want to tell you about our second sponsor that

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00:52:41   All right, moving right along, gentlemen.

00:52:45   Our next tiny topic, because we're still in that area, is Myke's new iMac Pro.

00:52:51   Myke, how's your new computer?

00:52:53   Myke has a new computer?

00:52:54   Yeah.

00:52:55   Wait, what?

00:52:56   Uh huh.

00:52:57   Myke ordered a new computer on September the 30th.

00:53:01   Myke ordered that computer because connected listeners...

00:53:04   Can you stop talking about yourself in third person?

00:53:06   Like I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna scream.

00:53:08   Please keep going.

00:53:09   I quite enjoy it.

00:53:11   I ordered it on September 30th.

00:53:15   of Connected may remember me talking about wanting to order this computer before Catalina

00:53:19   came out because I wanted to get an iMac Pro but I'm going to replace my 2015 iMac. A member

00:53:25   of the family really desperately needs a computer so I'm able to shuffle this one down, replace

00:53:31   it with a brand new iMac Pro and I didn't care if Apple revved it this year because

00:53:36   it was already so much more powerful than that was it and all I wanted was not to have

00:53:40   Catalina on my machine. So on September 30th, I placed my order. The order is still processing.

00:53:52   It has not shipped yet. I am worried now that the literal only reason that I ordered this

00:53:57   machine when I did, which was to avoid Catalina, is going to come to bite me very badly. As

00:54:04   As this machine may come with Catalina on it.

00:54:09   And it's supposed to arrive between the 14th and 21st of October.

00:54:13   That's what I've been told.

00:54:14   Yeah, considering it's not shipped yet from...

00:54:18   I don't know where it was shipped from.

00:54:20   I don't know where these things are actually going to be made.

00:54:22   I don't know if it's in China or if it's in Europe somewhere.

00:54:26   I don't think it's going to arrive on Monday.

00:54:29   So I'm very nervous right now that this machine that I've ordered is going to have Catalina

00:54:36   on it.

00:54:37   It is not the worst thing in the world and if that is what happens then I guess I'm just

00:54:42   going to have to use it.

00:54:43   But I didn't want to, right?

00:54:45   As people may know, I like to try and stay a little bit behind the most recent release

00:54:50   because I don't like to change things on my production machine if I don't have to.

00:54:56   So I'm very nervous right now and I want to know if this machine is not hardware revised,

00:55:04   right?

00:55:05   Let's assume that they're considering we haven't heard anything about an event.

00:55:10   No event has been announced.

00:55:11   It is very unlikely that there is going to be an event next week, right?

00:55:17   Not next week, but maybe by the end of the month.

00:55:19   Right.

00:55:20   But they're telling me that my machine will ship between the 14th and 21st.

00:55:24   So it should ship next week.

00:55:26   I would expect the likelihood of a hardware revision on the iMac Pro to be unlikely. Also,

00:55:34   I don't expect that Apple are holding my machine personally so they can give me a newer one.

00:55:41   I don't believe that that's what's happening. So I don't expect that they are hardware revising

00:55:46   the iMac Pro. Because you can currently buy a non-build to order and it can arrive the

00:55:51   next day. I can buy one today and it can get here tomorrow and it's a non-build to order

00:55:55   machine right so if they're not going to revise the hardware but it arrives with

00:56:02   Catalina on it can I do anything about that it depends on if they do any sort

00:56:10   of like silent revision so let me back up a little bit I actually am not sure I

00:56:14   agree with you that just because you can buy a non optioned one that there's not

00:56:19   a revision coming it may be that those were on the channel already they build

00:56:23   these on demand so maybe they're like mid-ramp to some sort of update. Why

00:56:27   would you do that though? Like why would you say that to me? Because it's gonna be

00:56:31   the truth and I don't lie to you. You can clearly tell I'm upset like I don't know

00:56:35   why you would now of all times decide to tell me that. Why would you tell me that?

00:56:39   I don't know. It may be too. So it may be that they're they're not revving all of

00:56:44   it but there's gonna be like a new option for a video car or something I don't

00:56:47   know. Or it may just be that the guy who builds custom iMac Pros is on vacation and

00:56:51   and you'll get it when it comes back.

00:56:52   I don't know.

00:56:53   It really depends on the machine's firmware

00:56:58   if it will run Mojave or not.

00:57:00   So I think when you get it

00:57:02   and it has Catalina on it out of the box.

00:57:05   - If, if.

00:57:06   - If it does.

00:57:07   - 'Cause even if it ships on Monday,

00:57:09   it wouldn't necessarily have Catalina on it anyway, right?

00:57:12   Like it could still have whatever Yosemite or whatever,

00:57:15   I don't even know what it is anymore.

00:57:16   - Mojave. - High Yosemite.

00:57:17   - Yosemite.

00:57:18   - Which one is it?

00:57:19   - Yeah, Panther is the one you're thinking of.

00:57:21   Ah, okay, good.

00:57:22   If it has paint thrown out of the box,

00:57:23   call me 'cause I'm gonna come make a YouTube video about it.

00:57:26   If it has Mojave on the box, obviously you're set.

00:57:27   If it has Catalina, you may be able to go back or not.

00:57:31   You could compare like the firmware revision with mine,

00:57:33   for instance, which is an original.

00:57:35   Or you downloaded the Mojave installer, right?

00:57:40   So that's good to go.

00:57:42   I have that.

00:57:43   And you could just try booting it from the Mojave installer

00:57:46   and see if it'll install.

00:57:47   It will tell you if it can't.

00:57:49   So that's that.

00:57:50   That's that.

00:57:51   And if it can't, yeah, you just try it.

00:57:53   And it will not let you install something

00:57:56   that won't be supported.

00:57:57   So you may have to go in and turn the T2 security stuff off

00:58:01   to install an older version of Mac OS, but it should work.

00:58:04   - But I could turn it back on again if I did that?

00:58:06   - Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

00:58:07   It's like a setting in the startup thing.

00:58:08   - I mean, I know this isn't the worst thing

00:58:11   because we have a similar setup,

00:58:15   Jason Snow has a similar setup to me as well, right?

00:58:18   Like, hardware-wise, my most important things will work,

00:58:23   but I would prefer to just not go to Catalina yet.

00:58:28   Especially because, like,

00:58:30   we're gonna talk about Catalina shortly,

00:58:32   the general reception to it has not been good, right?

00:58:37   - It's mixed at best.

00:58:40   - Yes.

00:58:40   I don't install new versions of the operating system

00:58:48   when they are positive, right?

00:58:50   Like, I just don't do it when I can avoid it.

00:58:54   And so this is like

00:58:56   maybe not the greatest version

00:58:58   I don't know if everything that I have will work, right?

00:59:01   I don't even know yet because I haven't bothered looking

00:59:03   because I wasn't planning on upgrading.

00:59:05   I would just would prefer to not have to have it

00:59:09   but I care more about this machine

00:59:11   than I do about Catalina

00:59:13   so if I have to run Catalina I will

00:59:15   But it would just be some real dramatic irony if the whole reason I bought this machine now

00:59:20   Was because of this and then it doesn't work because like who knows I could have gone off the reservation

00:59:27   I could have like completely just gone wild and

00:59:29   Got the new a new MacBook Pro and the LG monitor and run my life that way who knows I any option I could have bought

00:59:36   A Mac Pro any option could have been available to me

00:59:38   But I went with the iMac Pro now because I wanted a powerful machine that I could buy now with Mojave on it

00:59:45   And then funnily enough now look where I am. Yeah, so that's the ballad of the iMac Pro

00:59:51   It's weird that it's still pending

00:59:53   That's for a reason. I don't know how long these things typically take right?

00:59:59   I'm not that long

01:00:00   I don't know if like it'd be a couple of days for all I know

01:00:03   my iMac is in the air from China to Ireland and they just don't bother telling me that yet because

01:00:08   It hasn't technically shipped to me. Right? Did you did you buy it through a store? Yes

01:00:14   You just contact them and be like, hey, have you heard any updates? Maybe they know that's not a bad idea

01:00:19   Because there I do have this weird thing where like, you know on the Apple retail site you try and log in right to

01:00:26   Get more information. I can't do that. Mm-hmm because

01:00:30   They're using an email address that I use for business that I don't have an iCloud account attached to

01:00:35   Hmm, right like I emailed them from an email address

01:00:38   Which I use for this type of stuff

01:00:41   But it's not my iCloud address. So I can't sign in with an Apple ID

01:00:47   To check more information about the order

01:00:50   So yeah, I'll do that. I might give it another day or two and then I'll email the store and just say like hey

01:00:57   There's a final tiny topic of the episode.

01:01:01   Apple have seemingly even more officially,

01:01:07   even more delayed iCloud folder sharing.

01:01:09   So the macOS Catalina features page now says

01:01:13   that iCloud folder sharing will be coming this spring.

01:01:16   The iOS 13 page still says later this fall.

01:01:20   So that's that.

01:01:24   I mean, I guess we can expect at least on the Mac,

01:01:27   but maybe it just means Apple hasn't updated the iOS page yet,

01:01:30   which is more what I'm inclined to feel about this.

01:01:35   So this is iCloud file sharing exists right now and has for a while.

01:01:40   So I can take a file and share it with Federico

01:01:42   and it will exist in both of our iCloud drives.

01:01:44   But iCloud folder sharing would say I could share a connected folder

01:01:48   with the two of you, and then we could use that in theory instead of Dropbox,

01:01:51   which I know people are excited about.

01:01:53   But it seems like that's not the case.

01:01:55   And I wanted to ask either of you, if you...

01:01:57   Has this feature ever existed during the beta process?

01:02:01   And if it has, have you used it?

01:02:03   Yeah, it existed and I used it.

01:02:06   And it was mostly hit or miss really.

01:02:10   Like, it worked.

01:02:11   Like, I was able to share a folder with Ryan

01:02:14   and we used it to share files for the adapt recordings.

01:02:22   But like, especially towards the end, like the final betas that had the feature enabled.

01:02:29   Like I would upload a file and it would say the file was uploaded and shared in the shared folder, but Ryan wouldn't see the file at all.

01:02:38   That's good.

01:02:39   So yeah, like it started out with a lot of potential and then it progressively got worse over the course of a few betas.

01:02:48   So I'm not surprised that they pulled it, but it did exist and I did use it and then it disappeared. It was not perfect

01:02:55   It was not it was not great

01:02:57   so it's the kind of feature that Apple needs to absolutely get right and I and I'm guessing that part of the

01:03:04   work required

01:03:07   to get folder sharing to work involved the new involved the

01:03:12   updated iCloud Drive file format which as we all know was the

01:03:17   the very... the functionality causing all kinds of issues for people with

01:03:24   disappearing files or files getting stuck and that forced Apple to revert

01:03:30   the iCloud Drive format back again during the iCloud, during the iOS and

01:03:36   iPadOS beta season. So Apple has been going back and forth on these new

01:03:41   iCloud Drive features, the second one being pinned files, so the idea of if you

01:03:47   pin a file you're always going to be able to keep it offline, so even if it's

01:03:53   stored on a cloud service you will always find it downloaded locally on

01:03:57   your device. That feature plus folder sharing require a new iCloud Drive file

01:04:04   format. Apple has been testing this new format on iOS, iPervos and Carolina. I'm

01:04:10   I'm pretty sure that Catalina still has it, or at least had it, in one of the betas.

01:04:15   Apple reverted the format back again during the Catalina beta.

01:04:20   And I'm pretty sure that we mentioned, maybe on the show, or at least we got an email from

01:04:25   a listener suggesting how reverting these file formats back and forth is really the

01:04:34   only way for Apple to test the migration process.

01:04:39   now with betas, the only way, you know, there's not gonna be anybody, or at least it's gonna

01:04:45   be very difficult for Apple to find developers that want to use the developer beta.

01:04:53   They're still running Mojave or iOS 12 at this point.

01:04:58   So the only solution to test this migration between different file formats is to change

01:05:05   it multiple times during the beta season.

01:05:08   So at least those developers will be able to experience the migration process that the

01:05:12   final user will see.

01:05:17   So I'm not surprised that this is all happening later next year, because this stuff takes

01:05:22   time and Apple is apparently not great at dealing with these file system changes.

01:05:30   It's a bummer, especially because folder sharing is one of the features, if not the feature,

01:05:36   people want to use if they want to move from Dropbox and embrace iCloud Drive.

01:05:42   It's something that on the surface is so basic and obvious as being able to share a folder

01:05:48   still not available for iCloud Drive users and that's a disappointment.

01:05:52   But I would rather wait than have a feature that is only semi-functioning and loses my

01:06:00   files or doesn't share them at all with other people.

01:06:03   I don't think that this will ship in 13. I think it will be 14.

01:06:07   Interesting theory.

01:06:09   Yeah, yeah.

01:06:11   I just think it's, they haven't done it yet. It's going too far. I feel like by the time we get to the fall,

01:06:18   if they can't hit that date, which we have no reason to think that they would, right?

01:06:23   Because at the moment they haven't been able to hit it, right? Like they keep missing dates on it.

01:06:28   So there's, it's one of those, like, this is an infinite timescale type situation

01:06:33   that they have right now on their hands, right? Like, who knows, right?

01:06:36   They haven't been able to do it yet.

01:06:37   They keep missing the dates that they're setting for themselves,

01:06:40   which means that it's a very complicated thing to do and they're struggling to

01:06:44   get it perfect. So I wouldn't be surprised if they then just push it.

01:06:49   I do think at some point, like if it's not this fall,

01:06:53   I think you're probably right.

01:06:55   Like, do you see them releasing a big iOS feature

01:06:57   in February or March?

01:06:59   And they did it one time.

01:07:00   But that's not the normal at this point.

01:07:03   We wanna talk about Catalina?

01:07:04   - Yes, please.

01:07:06   - Speaking about things that have shipped or not shipped.

01:07:09   Well, let's talk about that.

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01:08:44   So Mac OS Catalina has been out a few days now

01:08:48   and I wanna point people to a couple things.

01:08:51   One, I wrote a review on five-fold pixels.

01:08:54   John wrote a great review on Mac stories.

01:08:56   Jason wrote a review on six colors.

01:08:58   I really think it's worth reading all three

01:08:59   because they are all pretty different from each other.

01:09:02   John goes into detail on some things that I don't

01:09:04   and then Jason and I differ on opinion in a few places.

01:09:07   All right, there's also a special bonus episode

01:09:09   of Mac Power Users, MPU 504,

01:09:12   that I view really as a companion piece

01:09:14   my review so I think the MPU episode and my review of like two sides of a coin there David and I got

01:09:21   really deep into some stuff that we're not going to get into here that's a whole like hour and 45

01:09:25   minutes of us talking about it here with y'all I just want to talk a little bit about the high level

01:09:29   stuff so go check out that MPU episode I also updated the aqua screenshot library and I want

01:09:37   to share with y'all just a little behind the scenes of what goes in into that so the screenshot

01:09:43   library if you haven't seen it somehow it is a collection on my site of screenshots of major

01:09:48   features of every version of Mac OS starting with the public beta. At some point I want to add the

01:09:53   developer betas I haven't done that the machine I need to run that is broken but public beta and

01:09:58   forward. So the public beta folder in my Dropbox has 66 items. And it's 32 megs right there low

01:10:06   res images. They're not that many of them. Catalina is one gigabyte almost exactly. And

01:10:15   it is 295 items. Yes, Mac OS has gotten bigger over time. Obviously, the screenshots are

01:10:25   a lot bigger because of retina. But this is an ambitious project that past even maybe

01:10:32   have restimated how much time would take but people enjoy it. I like making them like having

01:10:36   them. It's really cool to me when I see these screenshots show up in articles by people

01:10:41   because I don't wait on vocabulary on them because they're, it's Apple software, but

01:10:45   I don't watermark them or anything. But you know, I know my screenshots, I know how I

01:10:48   set them up. And sometimes I'm like reading an article by somebody like, Oh, I made that

01:10:53   image. And it shows up, which is cool. So those are all there. And then I also updated

01:10:58   my 5k wallpaper page, which is now is like an outdated title because the new ones are

01:11:03   in 6k to support the pro display XDR. But those are there as well. Catalina has eight

01:11:10   wallpapers because the auto theme can move throughout them throughout the day. Nice.

01:11:15   This was actually true in Mojave. Mojave had 14 images, and I didn't have all of them on

01:11:21   the pages had the day and night ones. But for Catalina, I wanted to show all of them.

01:11:26   So I went back to Mojave and grab those so you can see those on that page now. And just

01:11:30   like always you can download them full res. So I see these as iPad wallpapers and people's

01:11:35   phones and stuff. It's, it's pretty cool. So that has all been done as well. It's a

01:11:40   very busy couple of weeks getting all this ironed out. Um, remind me, I thought, and

01:11:46   you can tell me if I'm wrong and it's perfectly fine. I thought there was a way to compare

01:11:50   your screenshots across years, like per thing. So I have that someone built that for me in

01:11:59   WordPress months ago and so I have that functionality. The problem I have now is

01:12:04   basically tagging all of those in a way where they build in the right order is

01:12:09   proving more difficult than I thought. I mean look over the six seventeen

01:12:15   releases that I cover there are over 2200 images. Yeah because I just want to

01:12:21   look at how your hairstyles have changed over the period of time that you've been

01:12:25   doing it. I do want to build that I have the functionality in WordPress. It's

01:12:29   really like a time issue and like a data entry deal. The files are all named

01:12:33   pretty consistently but because there's 2,000 of them 2,200 of them they're not

01:12:38   all perfect and some things change names over time so like but I've been unable

01:12:43   to commit the time to that but I do have the functionality I do want to do that

01:12:46   if not for every screenshot at least for a selection of them because I think it's

01:12:50   interesting to see how in particular something like system preferences

01:12:54   changes over time because that's sort of the window into a lot of other features

01:12:58   in Mac OS. Yeah because I mean it's great what you've built but that adds an

01:13:03   additional level of like usefulness right like it is and I know you know

01:13:07   this like it's totally like a cool thing to have as well as just seeing what

01:13:11   things look like over a specific release but anyway so I read your review today

01:13:15   very good and there was one thing that I kind of really felt from reading it is

01:13:20   that with Catalina, Apple are doing three things which are very strange when you

01:13:26   see them all together. They are letting go of the past, looking to the future but

01:13:30   overlooking the current future which is Catalyst for the future future which is

01:13:35   SwiftUI because it feels like they wanted to push to something but

01:13:42   Catalyst is not where it needs to be and one of the reasons for that may be

01:13:47   because SwiftUI is better. And we were worried that that was going to be the

01:13:52   case and everything that we've seen about Catalyst this week, which is now

01:13:57   Mac Catalyst, would kind of seem to suggest that. And we have some more that

01:14:04   we want to talk about with Catalyst in a bit, which we'll get to, but that was kind of

01:14:08   the feeling that I got from reading your review. Does that sound

01:14:13   completely wild, what I've just said, other than the way I phrased it?

01:14:16   I think that is accurate, but I think there's a there's more to it than just that so

01:14:22   Mac catalyst is which Apple's calling it now. I don't know when they made that change. That's what they're calling it

01:14:27   Mac catalyst is

01:14:30   Pitched as hey do a little bit of work your iPad Apple come to the Mac

01:14:34   But in practice and James Thompson has a really good blog post up today actually will put it in the show notes

01:14:39   They should get read

01:14:41   The work that it actually takes to make that happen is more than Apple sort of

01:14:46   Sold it as which is understandable right like they're on stage at WBC. You don't much time

01:14:50   So there's that it's a lot of work the business model is kind of screwy

01:14:55   so if you pay for an iOS app you have to pay again for the Mac app and some developers would do that but some

01:15:00   wouldn't and

01:15:02   There's no

01:15:04   Options there they have to pay again because the the app ID can't be the same

01:15:07   If you have in-app purchases, there's a really hard to bring over

01:15:11   That's all

01:15:13   complicating it to

01:15:15   And on top of all that Apple just didn't document catalyst very well. There's actually very little developer documentation

01:15:21   I've spoken to developers who have looked at it. I've looked through it and

01:15:24   I'm not a developer, but like just the volume of information out there from Apple about Mac catalyst is

01:15:31   dwarfed by what's out there for Swift UI and

01:15:35   all of that

01:15:38   Makes me feel like Apple may view catalyst is like just a temporary

01:15:43   fix until everyone moves to Swift UI which will let allow developer and

01:15:47   Boiling a lot of complexity down to one sentence to write one app that runs everywhere there runs on watch Mac TV iOS iPad OS

01:15:55   That's not today. That's not this week like that's not anytime soon and

01:16:01   So catalyst is kind of here to say hey you have an iPad app bring it to the Mac

01:16:06   And I think Apple is doing a disservice to its user base and its developers if they just let leave this half-baked

01:16:13   because SwiftUI is a long way down the road and I think they risk poisoning the well of SwiftUI if

01:16:20   Catalyst is bad like for developers, so

01:16:22   If you're an iPad developer, you're looking at the Mac. You're not going to go to SwiftUI anytime soon and

01:16:28   Catalyst is a bad experience. You may be tempted to write the Mac off

01:16:33   Indefinitely and that's not it's the opposite of what Apple is trying to do, right?

01:16:37   Apple wants to bring good iPad apps to the Mac and we can talk about some some that we've used

01:16:42   there are already reviews of several that are actually pretty good.

01:16:45   And some aren't very good and some are really bad, but that's how these things go.

01:16:49   There was a lot of concern about security aspects and what Apple are doing there and

01:16:54   how they're cutting off applications and really tightening up Gatekeeper and permissions and

01:16:59   stuff.

01:17:00   And you showed an example of installing transmit in your review and what that did to your machine,

01:17:06   but now people are putting it on their actual machines, things are going bananas.

01:17:11   there was a blog post written by Tyler Hall called Mac OS 10.15 Vista.

01:17:15   And it's just, it shows a screenshot,

01:17:18   which is horrible, right? Like the,

01:17:23   the first one experience and his screen is just full

01:17:28   of popups.

01:17:29   Well, to be fair to Catalina, Tyler screenshot,

01:17:35   like I saw, I installed it on Mary's MacBook Air last night.

01:17:38   She wanted reminders and you unless you have a bunch of stuff opening at login. You don't get all of these at once

01:17:45   I think this image is things that he

01:17:48   Ran it for a little while and kind of arranged all the windows so it looks worse than it actually is

01:17:52   Well, but what if you turn when you turn your computer on you have like me to restore the state of your session

01:17:59   Yeah, then you're gonna get this I guess but actually I don't know if that takes place after an install

01:18:03   I think it breaks right but like look if you look at some of the stuff that's on his screen here

01:18:07   You've got Bartender, Hazel, Alfred, Keyboard Maestro, Plex.

01:18:12   These are all applications that lots of people use that open at login, right?

01:18:17   And they're built to open a login, like not even just restoring the state.

01:18:21   So it feels like that they're not necessarily

01:18:25   trying to create a screenshot situation

01:18:29   that would be good to write this article.

01:18:32   You know, these are all applications that kind of by design,

01:18:36   you have open immediately.

01:18:38   So there will be lots of people that would have had an experience like this.

01:18:41   My screen would have looked like this because I have, I think, all of those things,

01:18:45   or at least enough of those applications open and

01:18:47   at launch that would do this exact same thing to me.

01:18:50   >> The worst part of this image is that it shows all these dialogues,

01:18:56   requesting access to your desktop or your documents or your downloads folders.

01:19:00   And that to me is the worst offender in this case.

01:19:04   Apple should have designed the system so that if you're updating from Mojave to Carolina,

01:19:11   it treats any previous interaction with those apps as an implicit permission.

01:19:17   So if I've used Acorn or Alfred before and I have manually saved a file to the downloads

01:19:25   folder, don't ask me again.

01:19:27   Because it's too late now, isn't it, Apple?

01:19:29   Like you can't walk into this and be the superhero when I've been using this application for

01:19:34   years.

01:19:35   It should have been able to look at your previous interactions.

01:19:39   And maybe it's the kind of feature that should have been added quietly even before in Mojave.

01:19:44   So start building some sort of log of the interactions that the user has had with apps

01:19:53   requesting access to the file system so that when it's time to upgrade from Mojave to Carolina,

01:19:59   Don't ask me if I want Alfred to access my documents folder, because I've used Alfred in the documents folder hundreds of times before, and the system should know this.

01:20:09   So don't ask me again.

01:20:11   One of the really good examples of implicit permission that I can think about this year is the updated shortcuts app.

01:20:21   So in the new shortcuts app, everything is gated by a permission prompt.

01:20:25   individual shortcuts, request access to individual apps and remote servers, for example.

01:20:32   But if you manually drag in an action from the action library into the shortcuts editor,

01:20:41   you're not going to get the permission prompt, because the fact that you are physically holding down on the display

01:20:49   and dragging, say, a reminder's action into the editor,

01:20:53   that's treated as an implicit permission

01:20:57   that shortcuts should have access to your reminder's app.

01:21:01   That is logical security to me.

01:21:03   Yeah.

01:21:04   Like, I don't know, I'm sure that not everybody agrees with that.

01:21:07   Sure.

01:21:08   But to me, that makes perfect sense

01:21:11   as to why you would, why it would work that way.

01:21:15   Like I, as the user, am making a choice.

01:21:19   - And this screenshot is a nightmare.

01:21:22   Like upgrading your operating system

01:21:25   and being presented with 20 alerts

01:21:29   for things that you've done before is just insane.

01:21:32   - Right, because here's the thing,

01:21:33   it fails at what it's intending to do,

01:21:35   'cause I'm just gonna say yes to all of that.

01:21:38   - Yep.

01:21:38   - Because I don't wanna deal with that.

01:21:40   - That's exactly right.

01:21:40   - It is, like I know the Vista joke is a joke,

01:21:44   But like, did nobody learn?

01:21:46   Is it from that experience?

01:21:48   Because this was the same stuff.

01:21:50   Like this was what Microsoft went through, was that they went through all this work.

01:21:55   They upset their users and ultimately did not achieve what they wanted because people

01:22:01   paid less attention to security dialog boxes as a result.

01:22:04   And like, isn't that what this is doing?

01:22:06   Especially when, like as a Mac user, this is a jarring experience to me because it's

01:22:13   all happening all of a sudden and I've never had anything like this before.

01:22:17   And they don't do anything to combine them.

01:22:20   So one of the suggestions in my review was, give me a panel that shows Transmit wants

01:22:28   to access your desktop downloads or whatever else it was and let me select them all there

01:22:37   in one window as opposed to giving me three or four back to back because it's just, it's

01:22:42   overwhelming it really is. And like why would I why would I not like why would I

01:22:49   let it access my documents folder but not my downloads folder anyway like why

01:22:54   would I make that distinction who's making that distinction whoa don't let

01:22:58   it near the downloads well whatever you do like oh whoa

01:23:03   save John dodged a bullet there I'll let Alfred access my documents only never

01:23:07   the downloads folder what are you what are you insane like who's making that

01:23:12   distinction. And I didn't get into it. Safari 13 asked you to download files

01:23:17   from this website. Like it's just it is slowly like just nagging you to death

01:23:22   and I understand that Apple wants to make the Mac more secure. I get that. I'm

01:23:26   not sure this is the way to do it because like you guys said people are

01:23:29   just gonna ignore these after the first day. Put the effort in because there's no

01:23:32   effort in these dialogue boxes. Yeah exactly. You're not explaining anything to

01:23:36   me. Like what happens when I hit the question mark? Do you know? So it's a

01:23:40   question mark and you should use dialogues. Where does it take me to? I don't remember.

01:23:45   Right but like... I don't have a Catalina machine in here with me at the moment.

01:23:48   Be more friendly to me as the user. Why are you... why is this even a problem? I don't know

01:23:54   from what you're telling me. The other solution I suggested was if you are

01:23:58   logged in as an administrator, like probably everyone listening is, don't

01:24:02   show me these. Just show me these if I'm a standard user I may not understand as

01:24:07   much as an admin is going to use.

01:24:09   I choose to log into my computer as a local administrator.

01:24:11   I don't need my handheld about using my own downloads folder.

01:24:14   I just don't.

01:24:16   These screenshots really show how many things it is,

01:24:18   but it's also if you access your contacts, your iCloud

01:24:21   drive, your calendar.

01:24:23   It's a pretty long list.

01:24:24   And I think it's like we were attempting

01:24:28   to make the Mac more secure, but I don't know.

01:24:31   I don't think it actually does.

01:24:32   I have no doubt that in the long run it makes a difference.

01:24:35   But the problem is the upgrading user, which is everyone, right, at this point.

01:24:43   Because they aren't... I don't think you can even go to... Nobody is using Catalina right now,

01:24:50   having never used a Mac before, because I don't think any of their machines are shipping with it

01:24:55   right now. So like every single person that uses Catalina sees something like this.

01:25:00   It may not be to this degree, but they see something like this.

01:25:04   this should not have happened to existing applications that you're running on your

01:25:07   system. That was a bad decision that they made and I don't know why they made that decision

01:25:14   because you run in any actual environment Catalina and this happens. So even if you only have three

01:25:23   applications that did this to you but they did it to you at the time that you logged in,

01:25:27   Like, it's wild to me that this is the way that it shipped.

01:25:33   Because, as I say, even just things like one application shows you three dialog boxes,

01:25:39   none of those dialog boxes have any context. Why did it ship that way? It's very perplexing to me.

01:25:45   You know, I've been thinking about this. I think that security, obviously, and authentication,

01:25:52   these are complicated topics and they are complicated to engineer, they are complicated to explain.

01:25:58   But I think for security to be effective, and maybe this sounds a little too simplistic, but bear with me,

01:26:05   for security to be effective, it needs to be used.

01:26:09   And for good security practices to be used, they need to be nice. They need to be elegant. They need to be clear.

01:26:19   Just to just compare for example these dialogues these alerts

01:26:23   with other security features that I think Apple did an excellent job in designing and explaining to people two examples

01:26:31   two-factor authentication and

01:26:34   iCloud Keychain

01:26:37   Those are complicated features

01:26:39   But they are super nice two-factor authentication you get a little map and then you can tap OK and you get a code and it's

01:26:47   Couple of taps to solve a problem that is super difficult and super challenging.

01:26:52   iCalcKitchen, it removes the complexity out of generating secure passwords and storing them,

01:26:59   and coming up with a username and finding it again, and it's integrated with the keyboard.

01:27:04   It's super nice, and I bet that millions of people are using that.

01:27:09   And that's the way to design security features.

01:27:12   I know that it's very easy if you're an engineer to get carried away with the minutiae of these

01:27:18   things with the details.

01:27:20   And these alerts, these are alerts designed by engineers.

01:27:23   They are not alerts designed by designers.

01:27:25   They're not nice.

01:27:26   They're not humane.

01:27:28   Maybe it's better to say these were alerts designed in a vacuum.

01:27:32   Yes.

01:27:33   If you are designing an alert that you expect will not be bombarding a user, you design

01:27:39   it like that.

01:27:40   It's not a nice experience.

01:27:41   And I know that if you're a security engineer, you're going to say, "Oh, well, I mean, who

01:27:45   cares about being nice?

01:27:47   It needs to be secure."

01:27:48   Yes, it also needs to be nice because it's a consumer feature and Apple is a computer

01:27:54   consumer company.

01:27:56   It's not a security company.

01:27:59   And you need to, you know, if you work at Apple and you work in security, you need to

01:28:02   understand that being nice is just as important as being secure.

01:28:07   Because if it's not a nice experience, people are just not going to care and they're not

01:28:10   gonna use it and they're just gonna click OK and they're not gonna know what it means.

01:28:15   So is it really more secure if it's not nice? So that's my principle.

01:28:20   I think it's a really good point Federico, I really do.

01:28:24   Let's get away from this with a few other things. Sidecar, I did not know the Apple

01:28:27   Pencil was required for Sidecar, that's interesting. The green stoplight button gets the Sidecar

01:28:33   controls. I saw that you weren't a fan of it, I don't know why. Like, who uses that

01:28:38   Who uses the green button in the stoplight?

01:28:41   Is anyone using that button?

01:28:42   Probably not.

01:28:44   Give it some use again.

01:28:45   It breaks.

01:28:46   So when they added full screen mode to the Mac UI in Lion

01:28:52   or sometime in there, they added like the double arrows

01:28:55   on the right side of the window.

01:28:56   You can find that in the screenshot library,

01:28:58   this like double ended arrow thing.

01:28:59   And it was super weird.

01:29:00   And they eventually added full screen to the stoplight button.

01:29:05   But the way that it works, this just feels like an add on,

01:29:08   like a kind of a tacky one.

01:29:09   I think I don't like the way it looks.

01:29:11   It feels odd to me.

01:29:12   So I mean, look, maybe they can improve that.

01:29:17   It also makes Sidecar like really front and center.

01:29:21   And I just don't know how popular Sidecar is gonna be.

01:29:25   Even for someone like me,

01:29:27   I have not found myself using it much in the beta.

01:29:30   - Yeah, I understand that.

01:29:32   I like this quote from your article.

01:29:35   A paired Apple watch can now be used to approve app installations, unlock secured system preference

01:29:41   panes and view locked content in notes.

01:29:43   That's a lot by the way.

01:29:45   I'm starting to think we're not going to get touch ID on a desktop or face ID anywhere

01:29:49   on the Mac anytime soon.

01:29:50   I think this is a very astute point and I think you're completely correct.

01:29:55   Why would you add all of that?

01:29:57   Which is stuff that touch ID and face ID is for.

01:30:01   touch ID or face ID were like expanding out anytime soon to other devices other than the

01:30:07   laptops.

01:30:08   I'd love to be wrong about that, but I don't think I am.

01:30:12   Benjamin Mayo from 9to5Mac pointed out that in the UK the trash is now called bin, which

01:30:19   I think I might be.

01:30:21   Honestly if my iMac Pro arrives with Catalina on it, I'll be happy because it will say bin

01:30:29   now instead of trash so I'm happy about that. It's a big change it's been trash

01:30:34   forever. I do want to before we leave entirely I do just want to mention the

01:30:41   the 32-bit app deal because they're gone. Something that wasn't in

01:30:47   the initial review but I added it the next day is that the Catalina installer

01:30:54   will warn you about any 32-bit apps that won't run. Oh that's good. But it doesn't

01:31:03   seem to be a complete list and I'm having trouble verifying this but it

01:31:09   seems like if there are apps that have 32-bit calls or like they're not pure

01:31:14   64-bit it doesn't seem to catch them. So like to this day like Adobe CC and some

01:31:20   of it stuff like the apps run, but things are broken in them.

01:31:25   And it didn't catch that on that on that test system, even though it had Photoshop

01:31:29   installed. So I still think it's worth going and downloading go 64

01:31:33   just to make sure and checking with any major apps

01:31:37   in your workflow. Like just just check that they're ready to go because you don't

01:31:41   want to get you don't want to get caught off guard with this.

01:31:45   Yeah, I mean, that feature isn't for all listeners anyway.

01:31:48   But you know what I mean? Like that's that's like people who haven't used or don't have any idea why go 64 would exist

01:31:54   right

01:31:54   But like I I think we spoke about like it would be good if they did that and I am pleased that they did do

01:31:59   That right so people can make the decision before they go all in and maybe make a mistake

01:32:05   so so yeah, it's you know, it's it's a good release with some rough edges and

01:32:11   I think that

01:32:13   historically like like in hindsight, we're gonna really view this as

01:32:18   a big step forward and I think the pain points will kind of fade, fade over time.

01:32:23   As long as you don't require 32-bit apps in your workflow because those are gone.

01:32:28   Whoo! Catalina! Whoa! I'm kind of ready for this cycle, new cycle to be over.

01:32:35   We've got a lot of stuff the last couple weeks and it's all very exhausting.

01:32:38   Ah well, new cycles means that we have things to talk about.

01:32:42   That's true.

01:32:43   And we don't have to work too hard to come up with stuff because we can just talk about what's happening

01:32:47   rather than thinking about dreaming up entertaining things.

01:32:51   - Well, anything else you guys want to talk about Catalina?

01:32:53   I feel like those are the high points.

01:32:55   - No, I think that's it.

01:32:56   The last thing is catalyst,

01:32:57   but I think we will probably have

01:32:59   quite a lot to say about that.

01:33:01   So maybe we should hold that for next week,

01:33:03   because spoiler alert, we're pre-recording an episode

01:33:05   because both me and Steven are away next week.

01:33:07   So we're recording again in a couple of days,

01:33:10   so we have to have things to talk about.

01:33:12   So Catalina will be it.

01:33:14   - Yeah, and I want a few more days

01:33:16   to spend time with apps that are built on it.

01:33:18   I mean, there are several coming out now a day, and it'll be good to give those a few

01:33:22   more days to see what else comes out.

01:33:24   Yeah.

01:33:25   All right, if you want to find show notes this week, stuff we talked about, head over

01:33:29   to the website that is relay.fm/connected/264.

01:33:35   While you're there, you can get in touch via email or you can do so on Twitter.

01:33:39   You can follow Myke on Twitter as @IMYKE, and Myke is the host of a bunch of shows here

01:33:43   on Relay.

01:33:44   Federico of course is the editor-in-chief of maxstories.net and you can find him on

01:33:49   Twitter at @vitiicci.

01:33:54   You can follow me on Twitter as @ismh and I write at 512pixels.net.

01:33:58   I'd like to thank our sponsors this week, ExpressVPN, FreshBooks, and Bombas.

01:34:05   And until next week guys, say goodbye.

01:34:08   Adios.

01:34:09   Adios.