255: Addicted to the Thrill of Cyber Crime


00:00:00   (upbeat music)

00:00:02   Hello and welcome to Connected, episode 255.

00:00:12   It's made possible this week by our sponsors,

00:00:14   Squarespace, Hover, and Care/Of.

00:00:17   My name is Steven Hackett and I am joined by Myke Hurley.

00:00:21   - Hello. - Hey, buddy.

00:00:22   - Hello.

00:00:25   - I don't have anyone else to introduce.

00:00:27   - No. - It's just us.

00:00:29   Federico's taking his annual vacation right now.

00:00:32   Where I think he actually, it's not like a vacation vacation, because I think he mostly

00:00:37   takes it so he can focus on the review I think.

00:00:40   I think his body is on vacation, but his brain is working.

00:00:43   Yeah, I think that's probably what it is.

00:00:45   We don't hear from him very much over this period of time.

00:00:48   So like, we can only, we can only at this point assume that Federico Vatici is still

00:00:52   on this earth.

00:00:53   We can only assume.

00:00:54   I haven't heard from him in days, I think, at this point.

00:00:58   He sent us a picture of some jewelry yesterday, but that was it.

00:01:01   Which isn't that unusual really.

00:01:03   No, I mean that could have been anyone.

00:01:05   That could have been someone pretending to be him.

00:01:07   I'm gonna check his tweets.

00:01:08   Has he been tweeting?

00:01:09   Let me see.

00:01:10   I don't know.

00:01:11   Not really.

00:01:12   I mean he's been retweeting some stuff, but that could be anyone.

00:01:15   Honestly that could be an automation run amok.

00:01:18   That's probably it.

00:01:19   I wonder how long he could be gone for and we not realize it because shortcuts are still

00:01:25   running.

00:01:26   And we wouldn't know.

00:01:27   keep happening and it's like we just like oh like now we haven't heard from him but

00:01:31   he is doing this or he is doing that so he must still be alive he just doesn't text very

00:01:37   much because when during this time of year especially i feel like we just don't hear

00:01:42   from him because like you know he just gets really i understand that he just gets really

00:01:46   like focused right on on getting the work done so that's kind of all he's doing 24/7

00:01:53   is awake. It's not like completely 24/7 but you know what I mean. So yeah I guess the

00:01:58   automations could just keep running and nobody would ever know. I know. It's chilling.

00:02:02   Did we just write an episode of Black Mirror? Maybe. I think that's what that show is about.

00:02:07   I don't watch it. I don't. But I think that's what that show is about. Let's talk about art.

00:02:11   We spoke last time about... You should be playing some classical music right now underneath while

00:02:17   we talk about this part. Well that's the show intro. You can't go back to that well too often.

00:02:21   a different piece of music. That's a lot of work. That would take literally weeks.

00:02:26   Well, to play a piece of classical music underneath the audio. That is true. People

00:02:32   don't know how those types of shows get put together. It takes weeks. Weeks and six people

00:02:36   and four producers and an office in New York. I'm going to need a producer and an editor

00:02:40   and an assistant editor and an assistant to the editor and uh and uh. And an office in Brooklyn.

00:02:46   Brooklyn has the right audio environment for shows with music underneath them.

00:02:51   [Laughter]

00:02:54   So, we spoke about Dr. Durang's photo of me putting Ram in Rose Orchard's Mac Mini,

00:02:59   and someone on the show, maybe Federico, maybe you, someone said it looked like some sort of

00:03:05   Renaissance painting, and Dr. Durang linked to it and said, "Yes, I took it because it reminded me

00:03:10   of the Last Supper. People watching Steven are like the apostles." Isn't that incredible?

00:03:16   I would like to ask you as a question, and I don't mean any disrespect,

00:03:19   but as a religious man it's a little weird how do you feel okay cool just check it just check in

00:03:25   like you know i mean it wouldn't bother me personally but like i just wonder how you

00:03:29   like being called the jesus of this situation i don't view myself as the messiah of the max but

00:03:34   you know maxiah wow it's gonna go register that domain however drang disagreed with feta rico's

00:03:44   comment or maybe Myke's comment, it's unknown, but it was definitely Myke, about the golden spiral.

00:03:50   So anyways, we're sorry Dr. Drang. What did he say? That he was going for a da Vinci-like

00:03:56   triangular construction. I really enjoy the fact that Drang thought of this whilst and before

00:04:02   taking the photo. It's a glimpse into how his mind works. Everything is just shapes and lines

00:04:08   in his brain and I guess possible failure points. Okay, Myke, we have some really long-term follow-up.

00:04:15   You texted me earlier today, we're talking about the show, and he said, "Hey, I want to update

00:04:18   people on my usage of RSS." We spoke about this, I don't know, months ago, how you were going to

00:04:24   resurrect RSS. That's what RSS stands for, resurrected simple syndication.

00:04:30   Resurrected, resurrected sometimes stupidly.

00:04:33   And you are using this over Twitter for news or you're going to try to do it. So anyways,

00:04:36   how's it going?

00:04:37   Well, I guess the follow up goes back maybe a little bit further than that in the sense of me moving from tweetbot to the Twitter app.

00:04:44   Oh, yeah.

00:04:45   Right, and like, right, because the, and I said this at the time, like I wanted to try it and then I realized that a side effect of using the Twitter app is that you find yourself using Twitter differently because the Twitter app is kind of focused on that, right?

00:04:58   Like, it is focused on providing a different experience. It is focused on providing the experience that it wants to provide, not necessarily the one that you want, right?

00:05:07   right? Like and that's just that's the prerogative of twitter to do but i will say that if you want

00:05:13   to spend less time on twitter which i did for various reasons which i think are different to

00:05:18   the typical reasons i mean like typically people say like i don't want to be on twitter because

00:05:24   twitter is a place of nazis and blah blah blah and i'm not denying all of that but like that wasn't

00:05:29   where i was coming from it's just like i spent too much time using this service like it was just

00:05:34   a pure like my self-control problem over a service is bad problem you know what I mean?

00:05:40   Like I'm not saying that that's not the case and I understand why it's the case for many people

00:05:44   but I feel like at this point I've done a pretty good job of getting my follower list and who I

00:05:50   follow and what I'm seeing retweet-wise that I don't get a lot of what I don't want to see

00:05:56   in my timeline like I feel like I've done pretty good at that over time but really it was just like

00:06:01   I just wanted to reduce the amount of time that I was spending on Twitter, reducing my

00:06:05   reliance on it as a news source because I would get the news that I wanted, but it's

00:06:12   also intermixed with a bunch of stuff that I don't necessarily want, which could be like

00:06:17   what is the drama of the day that maybe I don't care about, or maybe it is about 30

00:06:21   to 50 hogs coming to hurt my children. Did you see this yesterday? It was very funny.

00:06:28   I did enjoy my time reading this meme.

00:06:31   It was very good.

00:06:32   It's like one of those memes that just, it had a 24 hour window and it was gone.

00:06:37   I feel like I missed it.

00:06:38   And it was completely gone.

00:06:39   Yeah, you missed it.

00:06:40   Like it was one of those things that everyone was tweeting about it.

00:06:42   It made no sense when you found out what it meant.

00:06:44   It still made no sense.

00:06:45   But by that point it was funny.

00:06:47   So you know, like, you know, that kind of stuff.

00:06:49   It's like, it's funny and I want to be involved in it when I want it, but I don't want to

00:06:54   have to see all of that stuff all the time.

00:06:58   Basically, I wanted to turn Twitter into recreation, right?

00:07:02   As opposed to becoming, being like this pivotal part of the way that I work.

00:07:08   And I've tried to use RSS a bunch in the past, but then the problem was, I felt like, oh,

00:07:12   I'm just seeing the same things in multiple places because I'm reading them and then I'm

00:07:16   going to Twitter and reading them because I was just doing my like, what is it called

00:07:21   when you, a completionist mindset of reading tweets through Tweetbot in reverse chronological

00:07:26   order.

00:07:27   So one of the things that I noticed was as I was using the Twitter app more, I was using

00:07:31   Twitter less. Right now screen time is putting me at like between one to two hours less a

00:07:38   week of using Twitter, which is great. When it was, you know, like before it wasn't like

00:07:43   100 hours, it was like five or six hours and now it's down by like an hour or two on a

00:07:48   weekly basis, which is, I mean, that's what I wanted to see. I don't feel like I've worked

00:07:52   very hard. I've not set any app limits. It's just my usage patterns are changing.

00:07:57   And I am finding myself very frequently now just thinking, "When was the last time I looked?"

00:08:03   And it could be a full 24 hours. And this is just, I am happier with this because this

00:08:08   is more of how I want to use social media. I am using Instagram a lot more. I like Instagram

00:08:16   way more. It just brings me joy in my life. It just makes me happy. It doesn't mix up

00:08:21   a bunch of stuff that I don't necessarily want to see, which I feel like I get in Twitter

00:08:24   way more. And so then what I thought to myself was, right, if I'm using Twitter less and

00:08:29   Twitter is my main source of information that I need to do my job, then I need to have a

00:08:35   reliable system of information. And that's when RSS came back into my life. So I use

00:08:41   a service called I Know Reader. I don't know exactly why I picked that one, but I, this

00:08:47   This is the last time that I tried to use RSS.

00:08:49   Federico told me to do it, and then I had a year-long subscription, so I just chose

00:08:53   that one again.

00:08:55   And I'm using Reader 4 on all my iOS devices.

00:08:59   I'm just doing RSS on my iOS devices.

00:09:02   And that is a very good-looking application, isn't it?

00:09:06   It's beautiful.

00:09:07   It's very nice.

00:09:08   It's got all the features that I would want.

00:09:10   There's some stuff that I would want to change, but nothing so perfect that it can't be complained

00:09:14   about.

00:09:16   And yep, I think somebody said that.

00:09:18   I think Merlion's came up with that one.

00:09:21   He just wants to be remembered for one thing.

00:09:24   And so I've been enjoying this kind of...

00:09:30   So basically one of the things that I like about RSS, when thinking about it from a Twitter

00:09:34   mindset of, if I don't check into RSS, it is not any harder for me to get the information.

00:09:42   It just waits.

00:09:43   I know that that is like, Myke of 2004 knew that, but I feel like the last 10 years of

00:09:49   doing things differently, I've kind of forgotten about that core difference.

00:09:53   RSS, the information will just wait for me until I'm ready to check it.

00:09:57   So I'm very happy.

00:09:58   I recommend to people if they are feeling like maybe they're spending too much time

00:10:02   on Twitter, I don't necessarily recommend the complete cut it out of your life approach

00:10:08   because there is a reason that you're using it.

00:10:11   and a lot of it might be because you enjoy reading memes about 30 to 50 hogs, right?

00:10:15   Like that might just be a thing that you enjoy and if you get rid of that from your life,

00:10:18   your life might be worse. I don't know. So I recommend using the official Twitter app

00:10:23   and using their algorithm because it surfaces things for me. So I don't need to dig through

00:10:30   everything because it is doing an okay enough job of showing me the stuff that's popular

00:10:35   and important. So that's where I am right now. I'm feeling pretty good about it. I don't

00:10:39   have any downsides so it's probably one I'm gonna stick with for the foreseeable future.

00:10:44   Welcome back to RSS, some of us never left.

00:10:47   Do you constantly, like you still have always every single day RSS all day every day?

00:10:52   I've never stopped, I've moved from Google Reader into, I used something for a while

00:10:57   then I settled on Feedbin and I use Reader on the Mac and iPad and I use Unread on the

00:11:03   iPhone and it's been that way forever.

00:11:05   How many feeds do you subscribe to?

00:11:08   Ooh, that's a good question.

00:11:09   Let me see if I can easily ascertain that number.

00:11:12   I have 16.

00:11:14   It's definitely more than that.

00:11:16   And a bunch of them are like the personal blogs of friends,

00:11:19   so they very infrequently update.

00:11:22   I have like 10 feeds that update every day,

00:11:26   and the rest of them are like every once in a while.

00:11:30   I mean, I don't know if I can find a number.

00:11:32   Mine is probably 50.

00:11:34   Yeah, that seems like too much.

00:11:36   So a lot of them-- actually going through here,

00:11:38   a lot of these are dead.

00:11:40   There's some blogs in here that haven't

00:11:41   updated in a long time.

00:11:42   Several of them-- so I have a folder called Geek News,

00:11:49   and that's like Verge and Gadget.

00:11:51   And that one, basically I look at the top three or four

00:11:54   and just ditch the rest.

00:11:56   There's a lot of overlap.

00:11:57   So here was a thing for me when I was setting this up again.

00:12:00   I decided to pick one website in every category,

00:12:03   because they all report on the same news.

00:12:05   Because like if the Verge has a big exclusive about the Samsung Galaxy Note 10,

00:12:11   and Gadget's going to post about it, right?

00:12:14   So like I have like nine to five Mac, because they are like,

00:12:19   I have found them to be, they will post every piece of Apple news.

00:12:22   It's true.

00:12:22   And like, so that's the place that I want it.

00:12:24   And that is a, not a criticism, like that is exactly what I was looking for.

00:12:28   Right?

00:12:29   So they're kind of like all Apple news, them.

00:12:32   If I want all technology, it's The Verge, all of gaming, Polygon.

00:12:36   And then I have variety, they have variety's tech section to pick up stuff for

00:12:41   Upstream. Right? Like, and that's kind of like,

00:12:43   you're hitting across my main categories there.

00:12:45   Then I pick up other parts of like, I want interesting information, right?

00:12:49   So I'll have like Mac stories and you and Jason.

00:12:52   And it's not just because you guys are my friends.

00:12:55   Like I've read all of these people, including you, way before we were friends.

00:12:59   And then I'll have like, I have TechCrunch in there,

00:13:02   and most of the time I never,

00:13:04   like I just completely archive it,

00:13:06   but sometimes I'll pick something out of there.

00:13:08   That's kind of the way that I've been using it.

00:13:10   And then there's like a bunch of personal blogs

00:13:13   or individuals who have websites that I enjoy.

00:13:17   But like I go for like a few fire hoses,

00:13:23   but not like all of them like I used to, right?

00:13:26   Like in my previous days, I would be like,

00:13:28   "Oh, all right, I'm gonna go for The Verge and then Gadget and Gizmodo and all of those.

00:13:34   And then I'm gonna go for 9to5Mac and MacRumors and all, you know what I mean?

00:13:38   And I would just get all of them."

00:13:39   It's like, well, you're just seeing the same headline over and over and over again.

00:13:43   Not a criticism of any of these websites.

00:13:45   That is the industry.

00:13:46   Like, that's just how it is.

00:13:48   But I think as a reader, you just pick the one with the voices that you like the most

00:13:51   and go with it.

00:13:52   Yeah, you have, uh, you're gonna make me clean this out.

00:13:55   There's a lot of overlap here.

00:13:56   You gotta clean it out, man.

00:13:57   Yeah.

00:13:58   at it right now chronologically, how many headlines are the same just from different

00:14:02   places?

00:14:03   I mean, yeah, there's a lot of overlap. And so that folder in particular is really bad

00:14:06   about that. So that one I just sort of skim.

00:14:09   You know what it might be actually just so you to get an idea? Don't do it yet. Wait

00:14:12   until tomorrow because Samsung have their Galaxy event tonight.

00:14:15   Yeah.

00:14:16   Just see what that looks like. Like all of the websites just posting all of the news

00:14:21   about the same thing. Yeah.

00:14:23   So, uh...

00:14:24   So that's where I am.

00:14:25   still here. The irony is of course is that you and I own a company that is

00:14:32   built on top of RSS. But yeah but no one thinks of it that way. I think about that

00:14:36   way. Not in this sense. We don't use RSS readers. I do have the Relay FM master

00:14:42   feed in Feedbin. I have it in a podcast app where it's more useful. So RSS. Okay

00:14:50   look if you look in your podcast player right now this chapter is named

00:14:53   shameless promotion. Yeah it's it's August we do lots of stuff in August

00:14:57   you're just gonna have to live with it. There's a lot this year so let's start.

00:15:02   But it's a big year! It's a huge year five years we are going to

00:15:06   kindergarten as a podcast network. Congratulations. Item number one we are

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00:15:18   playing relay FM family feud someone on Twitter said that we really missed an

00:15:24   opportunity to smash FM and family together so like relay from feud but I

00:15:29   don't know how to say it so really a family feud but it doesn't work it

00:15:34   sounds like you're saying something naughty you don't want that so this link

00:15:39   in the show notes if you are a listener you should click on it and fill it out

00:15:45   because the way family feud works that hosts people in the show in our case

00:15:48   like 15 or 17, however many relay hosts are going to be there. They have to guess

00:15:53   the answers of the survey. That only works if we have answers to the survey.

00:15:56   So we're sending this out to all of our listeners. It's going to take you like

00:15:59   30 seconds to fill out. It's, it's, I don't actually, well I know it's an

00:16:04   example, I'm not actually playing Family Feud, but I don't want to say what's in it

00:16:06   because the hosts are listening. Very simple tech things. It'll take you no

00:16:09   time at all to knock it out. There's no right or wrong answer, it's what answer

00:16:12   comes to your mind. That's the way the survey works. Yes. It's like a fancy word

00:16:16   association. Yeah, that's good. Look at you. I've already explained it three times today on different

00:16:21   shows, so I'm getting good at explaining what the Family Feud's all about. So there's that.

00:16:26   We would love if you would fill that out. The more answers, the better. Secondly, we have our

00:16:33   anniversary merchandise up. The t-shirt, if you're listening to this today, it comes out August 7th,

00:16:38   is only available another eight days. So by the time the next Connected comes out, time will

00:16:43   will basically be over just about. So go check this out at Cotton Bureau. We

00:16:48   have a shirt. A lot of people have asked us about the art and so I want to say

00:16:53   two things about it. One, I love it very much. We went to our designer and said we

00:16:58   want something to like celebrate the feels like relay but doesn't necessarily

00:17:02   look like a podcast. It was one a nice design that could be anything and you

00:17:08   know you could see this is like a Christmas ornament. Maybe we'll do

00:17:11   Christmas ornaments or a, you know, neck tattoo or something.

00:17:14   - I'm probably gonna put it on my body at some point.

00:17:16   - It's really good.

00:17:17   So it's a star with like the little half circles around it,

00:17:22   so it's kind of five points, the star,

00:17:24   it's all kind of a conceptual conception of art.

00:17:29   - It's high concept podcast.

00:17:30   - It is.

00:17:31   Can you tell I spent two years in art school?

00:17:32   It's really paying off as I describe this.

00:17:35   - Yeah, it was really good.

00:17:36   I could feel the education.

00:17:38   - Yeah, it rolling out of me.

00:17:40   So go check this out, there's a t-shirt,

00:17:42   there's also a enamel pin with the same artwork.

00:17:46   My pins are out for delivery in a couple days.

00:17:48   The shirts will, we had this question as well,

00:17:51   the shirts will not be to you in time for the live show.

00:17:55   We wanted everything up in August

00:17:56   and that meant we sacrificed to having the shirts done

00:17:59   by the live show.

00:18:00   - The pins though, if you buy pins on their own,

00:18:03   not pins of a shirt, you will get them before the live show

00:18:06   if you're in the US easily.

00:18:07   'Cause they're shipping out, right?

00:18:08   They're shipping out now.

00:18:09   So go check all this out.

00:18:11   We'd love to see these shirts and pins out in the world.

00:18:14   Number three, next week on connected, Myke and I will be hosting our annual relay QA.

00:18:23   So every week in this every year where people can ask us questions about podcasting about

00:18:27   the company about, you know, tech love, child rearing suit us those questions on Twitter,

00:18:33   you just use the hashtag relay QA.

00:18:35   And I have a little automation going around and putting all those in a spreadsheet for

00:18:38   us. The more questions the better. We go through them a few days in advance and

00:18:42   sort them into categories, so if you have any questions at all about Relay or

00:18:45   podcasting any of this stuff, we'd love to answer them on next week's Connected.

00:18:49   And finally, August is Relay FM membership month. We do this again to

00:18:56   celebrate the birthday of the network. You can go join at relay.fm/membership.

00:19:00   For all the members out there listening, thank you so much for your support over

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00:20:18   want to get a lot of merch, like if you're looking to buy a lot of merch for

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00:20:28   have a family reunion in October. I want everybody, just everyone. And you want to

00:20:34   order 350, I don't know how big family reunions are, let's say 350 people, the big

00:20:39   family. It's like a big family. Big family. Big family. Maybe a high school class

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00:21:00   matching relay shirts. Alright, Myke, we have a bunch of topics to talk about. I don't know

00:21:04   if you've heard of this company, Apple, they've done some stuff. We're gonna talk about file

00:21:09   maker, they're just in the news, which is not something I expected to happen this week.

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00:23:14   Apple card. Talk about this for a minute. Yeah. This is Apple's fancy virtual but

00:23:19   also titanium credit card. They are rolling out or they did roll out some

00:23:24   invites earlier this week. I'm unclear if that's ongoing or there was like a batch

00:23:29   of basically press people and it's coming out later to more people but... No,

00:23:33   they're doing over this month it's like people that signed up to learn more

00:23:37   They're gonna be kind of bringing them in in ways and but by the end of the month it will be open to anybody a couple

00:23:44   Of details that sort of came out in the early reporting that I wanted to mention here

00:23:49   We've also in the artwork of like the colors on the card and how they're sort of

00:23:54   Blotches of color that sort of gradient together. Mm-hmm

00:23:58   It turns out those come from the categories that you spend money within and so there were a couple of

00:24:04   tweets of like oh it's all yellow because I just used it one place for food and then you know into the hardware store and

00:24:10   A green one showed up and now they're slowly merging and changing over time, which I think is kind of fun

00:24:14   That's a nice detail that obviously physical cards can't do and I don't know

00:24:18   It's a little touch that I really appreciate for some reason you can order a physical physical card

00:24:23   It'll be mailed to you and for those out there who have had this experience with a debit or a credit card

00:24:29   Usually it comes with like a sticker and a phone number and you have to call the phone number and like type in the card

00:24:33   number and Apple is just putting an NFC sticker in the envelope so you just tap your phone

00:24:39   to it which is brilliant.

00:24:43   Super great.

00:24:44   And I think the integration within the Wallet app looks really good.

00:24:46   And they showed this before but a transaction list with information about vendors, balance

00:24:51   details, you can see where your money is going.

00:24:54   And this probably shouldn't have been a surprise but it sort of made the rounds as well that

00:24:58   Apple Card data cannot be shared with other money management apps.

00:25:02   So if you use something like Mint is very popular here in the US where you add your

00:25:07   debit cards and your bank accounts and stuff and you kind of get a holistic picture of

00:25:10   your finances.

00:25:11   Because most people you write, you have a credit card or two, you've got your bank account,

00:25:16   you got your mortgage, maybe you got a car loan or student loans, and it's hard to see

00:25:21   the big picture.

00:25:22   And so Mint is one of several solutions that sort of aggregates all this into one place.

00:25:27   And the Apple card is going to be separate from that.

00:25:31   I would not hold your breath about that changing because Apple is really preaching its privacy

00:25:38   story here.

00:25:39   This would be a problem with them if they ever come to Europe, especially the UK, because

00:25:46   legally you have to make this information available so people, consumers, can choose

00:25:53   to take their data and put it with other companies to allow for them to have better money management.

00:26:00   So I would be really keen to see what Apple was going to do about that.

00:26:04   It might be one of the reasons we never get it.

00:26:06   So like every bank here has to create a system, like a login system.

00:26:11   So for example, if I had two banks, I with one bank can use my online banking app to

00:26:17   basically log in and have the other bank's bank accounts displayed in the other bank's

00:26:22   app.

00:26:24   Which is like, it is the other side of data sharing, where me as the consumer gets to

00:26:31   choose where my data goes.

00:26:32   And there's other things you can do, for example, like take all of your bank account data and

00:26:36   upload it to a comparison website and find out where you can be saving money, like stuff

00:26:39   like that, right?

00:26:40   Like, oh, you're paying too much for this bill or that bill, and if you switch to this

00:26:44   company or that company, you could do it.

00:26:46   So it'd be interesting to see what they do there.

00:26:49   I didn't only don't know if this is ever going to be outside of the US, right?

00:26:53   Like Apple pay cash. No, what was it called? Apple,

00:26:58   what was the thing called where you can share,

00:27:00   send money to somebody because they've changed the names now I think.

00:27:02   Yeah. It's like if I'm going to send money to you,

00:27:04   I think it's Apple. I think it's Apple pay cash.

00:27:08   Okay. Well that, that never made its way outside of the US.

00:27:12   And it might be that Apple card would do that, right? Like they want,

00:27:16   if they want to push Apple card outside,

00:27:17   which I think is more of a thing that they would be willing to do,

00:27:20   then they would need Apple pay cash as part of it, right?

00:27:24   Cause it's where the rewards are, but I'm interested to see what,

00:27:28   if anything Apple does to try and like make itself

00:27:32   compliant with a lot of stuff that is required of these financial institutions

00:27:37   now here.

00:27:37   Yep. I just sent John Voorhees a dollar. It is, uh, Apple pay cash.

00:27:41   That was nice of you. That was nice of you. Send it back, John. But yeah, so, um,

00:27:46   I would very much, I'm very interested in this product.

00:27:49   Like, you know, and I use credit cards that have benefits to them, right?

00:27:55   And I actually use the benefits and that and it's really great.

00:27:59   But those cards cost me money to to pay.

00:28:02   I have to pay like fees for them every year and stuff.

00:28:04   You don't have to do that with the Apple card.

00:28:06   But I think that I would be like super willing to buy all of my Apple products on this card.

00:28:12   Right. Like that's what I would do with it because you get three percent cash back on

00:28:16   Is it 3% I think on Apple products?

00:28:18   It's like I buy my phone on it

00:28:20   and you also get cash back on subscriptions.

00:28:23   So if you pay for Apple Arcade,

00:28:27   you get 3% back every month, every time it debits.

00:28:32   So stuff like that where it's like, oh okay,

00:28:36   I would probably wanna keep a balance on that card

00:28:39   and top it back up.

00:28:42   So it's like the big credit card round robin.

00:28:45   Yes.

00:28:47   Which I mean, you guys spoke about this on upgrade. I'm kind of like Jason.

00:28:51   Rick, I don't really do much of that. Um,

00:28:54   we have a credit card that we use sometimes. Um,

00:28:57   but not something that I think genuinely, right?

00:29:00   Like if you are the type of person that does not want to have to go through the

00:29:04   rigmarole of using and like using all the benefits before they expire and all

00:29:09   that kind of stuff, like this is the perfect kind of thing.

00:29:12   where it's just actual cash back, not like cash back with a check or like cash back every

00:29:19   quarter where you have to mail something.

00:29:21   Like if you use this credit card, you'll get money back and you don't have to do anything

00:29:25   about it.

00:29:26   And then you can do whatever you want with that money, including paying off the balance

00:29:29   of the credit card, which is just like, that's a great thing to be able to do.

00:29:34   It's like, you know, I would, if this was available here, I would definitely, I would

00:29:37   definitely use it for my day to day purchases.

00:29:40   without a doubt, where I don't want to put like a sandwich on my American Express card.

00:29:46   It seems like too much aggravation, but I would do this and then I would maybe move

00:29:50   a lot of my purchases to something like this because it also has the cool like this is

00:29:56   where you're spending your money type features, which is really good to have and which a lot

00:30:00   of like traditional companies don't provide, but these newer banks do.

00:30:04   Yeah, I think Apple could go further with that. I mean, their cashback stuff, there

00:30:09   There are options that are better if you're a certain type of shoppers.

00:30:13   I think one that people will compare this to is the Amazon Prime Visa card, which I

00:30:20   believe is 5% back at Amazon and Whole Foods.

00:30:23   If you're that sort of shopper, those are very common on your statement, that could

00:30:29   be a better deal than this.

00:30:32   But I think you're right.

00:30:33   The Apple One will win in terms of just, hey, you get cash on your Apple Cash card and you

00:30:39   can spend that like any debit card or use that for Apple Pay cash to send a

00:30:42   dollar to somebody on a podcast so that is I think you're right that for people

00:30:47   who don't want to like roll their sleeves up or who don't really cleanly

00:30:51   fit into some other card that is clearly better this this is probably a good

00:30:57   default if you have an iPhone that's of course the the other thing that you've

00:31:01   got have an iPhone that's going to mean most people can't access it but if

00:31:06   If you're in that population, it seems like a reasonable option for you.

00:31:10   There's enough people.

00:31:11   Sure.

00:31:12   There's enough people to make a nice user base out of.

00:31:15   One thing I'm really intrigued about is how they deal with bad debt.

00:31:21   Because like, let's imagine somebody has like a $6,000 limit on their Apple card, and they

00:31:25   fill it up and they can't pay for it.

00:31:28   I wonder how they're going to deal with that, like just from a, how it will look from a

00:31:32   public like a PR perspective, right?

00:31:35   Like, will Goldman Sachs on behalf of Apple send like collection agents to your home?

00:31:43   Well I think I don't know if it's actually on behalf of Apple or not, but that will be

00:31:46   the perception, right?

00:31:49   This is a Goldman Sachs credit card.

00:31:51   That's what I mean, right?

00:31:52   But like Goldman Sachs are doing it for Apple, right?

00:31:56   And Apple have made Goldman Sachs change so many things about the way that they work,

00:32:01   including this data sharing agreement where Goldman Sachs is not allowed to use any of

00:32:07   the transaction data for anything. They can't use it for marketing, they can't sell it.

00:32:11   They've removed a lot of the way that credit card companies actually make their money.

00:32:15   So of course I understand the idea that you enter into an agreement with a company and the agreement

00:32:23   says you pay us back and if you don't pay us back we're going to get our money somehow. I

00:32:28   I understand all of that, but like I wonder what is it actually going to look like and

00:32:32   how soon do we start getting stories and stuff like that, if at all. I'm just intrigued about

00:32:37   from a PR perspective, debt is a strange thing for Apple to be in the business of, right?

00:32:44   Right.

00:32:45   They are in the business of debt now. And that is a, that's interesting. And I'm keen

00:32:52   to see how it resolves. When I have always thought about Apple's moving into banking,

00:32:57   This was not the product that I thought we'd see first. I thought that they would create

00:33:01   something to replace the debit account first or debit card first, not a credit card because

00:33:08   you're in the business of making people spend more money than they have. That's the business

00:33:14   that they're in now. That's what people do with credit cards. If there's anybody out

00:33:20   there who's young listening to this show, who's yet to have a credit card in their life,

00:33:25   off your credit card every month, like when you get to that point in your life.

00:33:31   That was a mistake that I made and I had spent many years getting myself back out of that

00:33:36   mistake when I was like 23.

00:33:39   Pay off your credit cards would be my advice to you.

00:33:42   But it is just like a thing where I'm intrigued to see how all that stuff starts shaking out

00:33:48   because they're in a very, very different business of this.

00:33:51   Mm-hmm.

00:33:52   It's strange.

00:33:54   Let's talk about some Apple security stuff.

00:33:56   Okay.

00:33:57   So a couple of stories originating from Forbes.

00:34:01   So the first one is that Apple will be creating and somehow dispersing iPhones with special

00:34:09   firmware and software.

00:34:12   And this will allow security researchers to get into parts of iOS that you normally can't

00:34:16   get to without jailbreaking and even go beyond.

00:34:20   So including like pausing the CPU to inspect its memory, which is not something that I

00:34:26   know how to do, but clearly, I guess it's possible.

00:34:30   This is to end with the end goal of making iOS and iPad OS more secure.

00:34:35   So it's a this is for security researchers and people who are, you know, known trusted

00:34:42   individuals or organizations to Apple.

00:34:45   It is kind of like, in parentheses, apparently, because like, of course, these phones exist,

00:34:50   but I've never really thought about them.

00:34:52   Internal use development iPhones at Apple that can do a user can do basically anything

00:34:57   on there.

00:34:59   This won't be as open as that.

00:35:00   But as a step in that direction, again, with the desire and Apple's part to be, we're going

00:35:06   to give these to trusted people who are security researchers in the field who will have access

00:35:11   to them and poke around them.

00:35:12   if they find things, they will disclose them to us and not post about them on Twitter.

00:35:17   And then we could fix these security issues.

00:35:19   So I think the reason this is a story that this didn't really exist.

00:35:25   I saw one tweet and I can't find it now.

00:35:28   But someone's saying that this program has existed before, but this is sort of a formalizing

00:35:34   of it.

00:35:35   So I don't know if Apple had like a secret handshake with a couple of security researchers

00:35:38   who had more access than others, but this seems at the very least to be a more formal

00:35:43   approach to this sort of security research.

00:35:47   It seems to me that it fits really well with Apple's privacy and security stance that they've

00:35:51   really taken over the last couple of years.

00:35:54   And we've we've all said it that if Apple has I'm gonna say when because it does everything

00:35:59   is inevitable probably.

00:36:01   When Apple has a really big security or privacy breach, it will be worse for them because

00:36:07   of their posturing on the topic, and they want to avoid that as long as possible.

00:36:13   Well, yes. I mean, I would agree that there was like the whole Siri thing as an example

00:36:18   of that.

00:36:19   Yeah. Oh, definitely. Which we didn't. I feel like that fell in between connected episodes,

00:36:23   but not good. Not good at all. So this is in conjunction with some Mac OS news that

00:36:31   Apple is announcing a Mac OS bounty program. So the way this works is if you find a security

00:36:38   vulnerability in an Apple product, then iPhone or an iPad, running iOS, or, you know, I guess

00:36:46   an iPod touch, I guess they're out there to if you have an iPod touch, and you find a

00:36:49   security issue with it, you can contact Apple, you're very special, you can contact Apple

00:36:55   through these approved channels and they will offer rewards or bounties for that

00:37:02   information. The idea being that if you find a security vulnerability Apple will

00:37:07   pay to get it off the market before it becomes known and disclosed to people

00:37:12   who could use it for ill. So they want to incentivize people who find these things

00:37:17   to do the right thing in Apple's eyes. And previously this program was just

00:37:22   limited to iOS and this caused a big dust up several months ago that some

00:37:28   stuff came out maybe even longer than that now security issues came with Mac

00:37:33   OS and then it sort of came to light in the public that there was not a Mac OS

00:37:37   bounty program I don't think Apple did that purposefully even like Mac OS X has

00:37:44   been around a really long time and in 2001 bounty programs they were out there

00:37:49   maybe, but the world was different.

00:37:52   And now you can just write a blog post or write a tweet,

00:37:56   and all of a sudden every foreign power and spy agency

00:38:00   in the world knows about a zero day in your software.

00:38:04   Apple doesn't know B in that situation.

00:38:06   So they've brought the Mac into the bounty program, which

00:38:08   I think is really good, because a lot of us

00:38:11   have a lot of stuff on our Macs and a lot of critical data

00:38:17   on our Macs.

00:38:17   And with iCloud, all this stuff is everywhere anyways, right?

00:38:20   So it's not just--

00:38:21   I would expect you could do more damage to a Mac than an iOS

00:38:24   device anyway.

00:38:27   Right?

00:38:28   Like, it's much more possible for a piece of software

00:38:31   to dig itself in.

00:38:34   Yeah, absolutely.

00:38:35   Because the Mac is more open.

00:38:38   And even though they're trying to--

00:38:39   You can talk Catalina anyway.

00:38:41   Well, in Catalina, you just have to work around

00:38:43   all the click boxes.

00:38:45   Or if you're a hacker, you just give up, because it's

00:38:47   so annoying. Yeah, you're right. And so the Mac is more open, but it's tied to all your

00:38:53   iCloud stuff. So if someone has control of your Mac, they really have control of all

00:38:57   of your data. And that's bad, clearly. So it's good that the Mac is brought into this

00:39:02   and that they're taking it seriously. And I would love to know what those phones what

00:39:07   that entails, like how that how that works, but the world will probably never know.

00:39:11   I'm really intrigued to know what precautions will they take on those iPhones to stop them

00:39:15   showing up on eBay?

00:39:16   I mean, if they so I would imagine this is basically just made up, but the way I could

00:39:20   see it working is that you are an employee at a, you know, security research firm, or,

00:39:29   you know, like McAfee or like those sort of companies. Not only is the company assigned

00:39:35   the phone, but I would imagine that Apple would know whose phone that is right, like who is the

00:39:43   primary owner of that special firmware phone.

00:39:47   And obviously they can't stop that person

00:39:50   from putting that phone on eBay,

00:39:51   but I would guarantee you they would know what phone it is.

00:39:54   And I would imagine too,

00:39:56   that there's some sort of check-in process

00:39:57   if that phone is not on some sort of internal network

00:40:01   at these companies or plugged into a computer

00:40:03   that somehow authenticates it every so often

00:40:06   that it would lock

00:40:07   and that you wouldn't be able to get into it.

00:40:09   That's-- I would imagine that that functionality would be

00:40:13   built in some way or another.

00:40:14   But someone like you--

00:40:16   Yes.

00:40:17   --would--

00:40:18   Me?

00:40:19   Yes, you.

00:40:20   This is really specific.

00:40:21   Someone who collects--

00:40:23   When I finish saying what I'm going to say,

00:40:26   you'll know what I mean.

00:40:27   Someone like you would want the hardware,

00:40:30   whether it worked or not, though.

00:40:32   Like someone who'd happen to have a collection of Apple

00:40:34   hardware.

00:40:34   Yes.

00:40:35   Not me specifically, government.

00:40:38   Not me.

00:40:39   Not me, Apple.

00:40:40   Specifically, you--

00:40:40   Come on.

00:40:41   --would buy one if it was on eBay.

00:40:44   Well, maybe in like 20 years.

00:40:45   I mean, if any of these things pop up anytime soon,

00:40:48   they're not going to be cheap.

00:40:50   It's kind of the same thing in a way to like testing hardware

00:40:55   and like verification hardware.

00:40:56   Sometimes Macs show up with like red logic boards,

00:40:58   and that's a test machine, a development

00:41:00   machine within Apple.

00:41:02   Sometimes those things pop up, like prototyping

00:41:04   and that sort of thing.

00:41:05   Do you have anything like that?

00:41:06   I don't think I do.

00:41:08   You don't have any like weird one-offs or prototype devices or anything like that.

00:41:12   I know, I don't have...

00:41:13   Are you interested in it?

00:41:15   I am.

00:41:16   The issue is if you want like a prototype Mac hardware, even if it's 30 years old, it

00:41:20   is way out of my league in terms of collecting.

00:41:24   Yeah, that's going to the like very serious, very rich collectors, right?

00:41:29   Yes, not me.

00:41:30   I mean, yeah, I mean, one of these phones may come out, but I would imagine Apple would

00:41:33   have a way to kill it.

00:41:34   So even if someone had the phone, the secret sauce won't get out.

00:41:38   Because that defeats the entire purpose, right?

00:41:40   Someone has access to all this, like, "Oh, oh no, what have we done?"

00:41:44   Yeah.

00:41:45   Yeah, bounty program.

00:41:46   So if you're out there and if you're finding a Mac vulnerability, the bounty program does

00:41:53   give me the mental image of some sort of software developer or security researcher who's also

00:41:58   kind of like Indiana Jones.

00:42:00   No, I think of pirates.

00:42:02   Well, no, because Indiana Jones wants to do the right thing, right?

00:42:06   Like this should be in a museum, even though he stole it from like the tribe of people

00:42:09   who have worshipped it for centuries.

00:42:10   Like he did a bad thing to do a good thing.

00:42:13   It's kind of Indiana Jones deal.

00:42:14   It's kind of what these people are like, right?

00:42:16   So you find an issue and you put on your cool hat and I guess you have a bullwhip and you

00:42:21   swing into the Apple campus and say, "This belongs in a museum!"

00:42:27   And you hand them the bug and they hand you a bag of gold and you go amongst your way.

00:42:30   That is actually a pretty good way of describing it.

00:42:33   Are they black hats or white hats or gray hats?

00:42:35   Which is the one?

00:42:37   Because I know the conference is called Black Hat, right?

00:42:39   But Black Hat is when you do something bad, right?

00:42:41   I think so.

00:42:42   Isn't, like, White Hat when you're a hacker for good, and Black Hat you're a hacker for

00:42:48   evil?

00:42:49   I found a blog post on Norton, as in Norton Antivirus, on their blog that we'll put on

00:42:55   the show notes about this.

00:42:56   I guess they would know.

00:42:58   Yeah.

00:42:59   I suppose.

00:43:01   Thanks Norton Antivirus.

00:43:02   That's definitely the only time I've ever been on this website.

00:43:05   Norton antivirus website. Black Hat hackers usually have extensive knowledge about breaking

00:43:10   into computer networks. Their primary motivation is usually for personal or financial gain,

00:43:15   but they can also be involved in espionage, protest, or perhaps the addicted, just addicted

00:43:21   to the thrill of cyber crime. I love that. Wow. That is addicted to the thrill of cyber

00:43:26   crime. No other crime. Are you or someone you love addicted to the thrill of cyber crime?

00:43:30   us at Norton. We are here to help. Would you steal a purse? I'm done. White hat

00:43:43   hackers choose to use their powers for good rather than evil. They are also

00:43:47   known as ethical hackers. And then get this Myke, as in life there are gray

00:43:53   areas that are neither black nor white. Gray hat hackers are a blend of both

00:43:58   black hat and white hat activities. Wait, so the hackers are a blend of activities?

00:44:03   Who wrote this? Hmm. So whatever hat you're... Okay, so grey hat hackers are the

00:44:10   people that go in for bounty programs is what they're saying. Like, they'll look

00:44:13   for vulnerabilities without the owner's permission or knowledge and

00:44:18   then report them, sometimes requesting a fee to fix the issue. So there you go.

00:44:23   Okay. So it should be called the grey hat conference then. I'm glad we cleared that up.

00:44:27   up service we provide bounty program get get paid to hack the Mac all right we're

00:44:34   gonna talk about file maker so no one leave we're gonna take a quick break

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00:45:40   And they have monthly sales on popular top level domains.

00:45:44   It's really easy to see why hover is the popular choice for people starting businesses.

00:45:49   I've had domains at Hover forever, even before the show,

00:45:52   before Relay, they've been my domain registrar of choice.

00:45:57   And so many times if I want to start a project,

00:46:00   I kind of start, if I don't have a name solidly in mind,

00:46:04   I actually use their domain name finder to help me with that.

00:46:07   So like in naming this very podcast network,

00:46:11   this was an issue, trying to find a domain name

00:46:13   that was really short and we could use the .fm.

00:46:16   Hover makes all that really easy.

00:46:17   It doesn't make naming the company easier.

00:46:19   That can still be difficult, but it makes the rest of it easier.

00:46:22   We know that people like intuitive user experiences,

00:46:24   and things just work straight out of the box.

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00:46:45   Our thanks to Hover for their support of this show and Relay FM.

00:46:50   Episode 8 was the first time that Hover sponsored.

00:46:52   Wow.

00:46:53   That's a long time ago.

00:46:56   One of the longest running.

00:46:58   One of the first.

00:46:59   FileMaker.

00:47:00   Alright, here we go.

00:47:01   FileMaker.

00:47:02   FileMaker.

00:47:03   Federico's gonna really sad he's missing this.

00:47:06   Probably will be actually.

00:47:07   FileMaker of course is owned by Apple.

00:47:09   It won all of, and was for a long time, the only wholly owned subsidiary.

00:47:14   But now I think there are a couple and this is one of them.

00:47:17   FileMaker and Beats, two companies that really I think of jointly, you know, kind of the

00:47:21   same thing.

00:47:22   FileMaker, Beats.

00:47:23   Very.

00:47:24   Yeah.

00:47:25   So they're in the news this week because they are changing their name to Claris.

00:47:28   And you may think, "Isn't that the name of the dog cow?"

00:47:32   Claris, the company is with an I. Claris, the dog cow is with a U.

00:47:35   I can't pronounce those differently.

00:47:37   Claris and Claris, like, there's no difference to me.

00:47:41   FileMaker is now known as Claris International.

00:47:45   This name is historic, Myke.

00:47:47   And because no one can stop me,

00:47:49   I'm going to tell you the history of Claris today.

00:47:52   You excited? - Great.

00:47:53   - You excited?

00:47:54   - Yeah, it's like "Ungenius'd."

00:47:56   - It is like "Ungenius'd."

00:47:58   No one will die in this story,

00:47:59   unlike what often happens on the "Ungenius'd" topics.

00:48:03   So we need to roll back the clock to 1986, 1987.

00:48:07   The Mac's been out for three years or so.

00:48:09   Apple had this idea of, hey, we really

00:48:12   want third parties to rush into the Mac

00:48:16   and build software for it.

00:48:18   And that really didn't happen the first couple of years.

00:48:21   And Apple sort of bet wrong on this.

00:48:24   So they started with MacPaint and MacWrite,

00:48:27   developed internally.

00:48:28   And they sort of let them languish.

00:48:30   And they said, oh, well, third party developers

00:48:31   will come in.

00:48:32   And by the time they did it, Apple's own software

00:48:34   was getting pretty crufty.

00:48:37   And so Claris was created to build software for the Mac.

00:48:45   And it was going to be sort of an independent company,

00:48:48   but sort of monitored by Apple.

00:48:51   And then John Sculley ended up buying it all back.

00:48:54   And that's when it became this wholly owned company by Apple

00:48:59   in those early years.

00:49:01   And in 1991, they really made a name for themselves

00:49:04   launching Clarisworks.

00:49:06   And this is an early example of sort of an Office Suite.

00:49:10   There were others.

00:49:11   Lotus was there and some others.

00:49:13   But ClarisWorks had a word processor, a drawing program,

00:49:18   a painting program, spreadsheet tools, database programs,

00:49:22   a presentation program.

00:49:24   Kind of what we think of today, right?

00:49:25   Where you might have Word and Excel and PowerPoint or Pages

00:49:29   and Keynote and Numbers.

00:49:31   ClarisWorks was all that stuff together.

00:49:34   launched in 1991. Like I said, and a very un-Apple like move today, it shipped for Windows

00:49:40   in 1993. So you could run Claris works cross platform and share files back and forth, etc.

00:49:45   Which is wild to think about Apple writing Windows software in 1993. Or not Apple, but somebody

00:49:51   completely owned and controlled by Apple. Claris works was spun back into Apple in 1997 or so.

00:50:01   So the word processor and all this stuff was rebranded and updated as Apple works,

00:50:05   which was eventually replaced by I work. I used Apple works in high school, I have a lot of Apple

00:50:12   work files floating around that I converted to pages documents early on most of them were just

00:50:18   near text. And it was declared end of life in 2007, which was way later than I thought it was killed.

00:50:24   And it's stuck on snow leopard, it won't run online or higher. So rest in peace, Apple works.

00:50:30   works. But Claris had a lot more than just the seven or eight programs and these programs

00:50:35   they they weren't as well integrated as something like I work or office are today you know,

00:50:41   office and I work you can basically like make a spreadsheet and then have like a chart and

00:50:45   then you drag that into a Word document or a presentation and like it updates and all

00:50:49   that sort of cross app compatibility platform stuff we're used to today. Some of that was

00:50:55   present in Claris works, but obviously it was simpler. But they also owned a couple

00:50:59   of other products that were less impactful, but I think are fun to talk about in hindsight.

00:51:05   The first one was Claris homepage, which was a what you see is what you get website creation

00:51:11   tool that ran on the classic Mac OS.

00:51:14   It never made it to Mac OS 10.

00:51:16   But if you wanted to build a website and you didn't want to write HTML or just write HTML,

00:51:22   Claris homepage was an early example of something you could do like a very early Dreamweaver

00:51:26   or something.

00:51:27   There's also an email program, Claris emailer, emailer,

00:51:32   emailer, that's a weird word to say,

00:51:34   and a contact calendar tool named Claris Organizer.

00:51:38   I'll give them this, very consistent with their naming.

00:51:41   Let's like Apple Watch and Apple TV.

00:51:43   If you wanna build a website, Claris homepage.

00:51:46   If you need to organize some things, Claris Organizer.

00:51:49   Solid, solid work.

00:51:51   These were around in the mid to late 90s,

00:51:55   didn't come to OS X, sort of died in the transition.

00:51:58   In 1998 or so, it shed all of its products

00:52:01   except FileMaker and HomePage.

00:52:04   It changed the company name to FileMaker,

00:52:06   which probably put the HomePage people on watch.

00:52:09   And HomePage was put out to pasture in 2001.

00:52:12   After 2001, it basically just made FileMaker,

00:52:15   which if you're not familiar with it,

00:52:19   it's an application for creating and managing databases.

00:52:24   So you can have, for instance, we heard from some people who

00:52:27   created invoicing systems in it.

00:52:29   So you could have all the fields you

00:52:31   would need to create an invoice, and it spits a PDF out,

00:52:33   and then you can track it.

00:52:35   You can really build almost anything

00:52:37   you would need within its sort of relational database

00:52:45   programming.

00:52:46   It's pretty easy to program.

00:52:47   FileMaker is one of those things,

00:52:49   and I haven't used it in a long, long time.

00:52:51   But you can do a lot, which is basic information.

00:52:54   But if you want to really get into it,

00:52:56   you can really go deep and really customize things.

00:53:01   And you can load it up as a-- the FileMaker server

00:53:05   becomes a web server.

00:53:06   And you can hit it from other computers,

00:53:08   so you're not just stuck to your only computer.

00:53:11   There is a FileMaker Go app, which

00:53:16   was like a parallel iOS mobile product.

00:53:20   And it just-- if you need to build something because no one

00:53:25   creates the tool you need, FileMaker

00:53:27   is like one of those things.

00:53:28   And a lot of people now just build a web app,

00:53:31   but FileMaker has its roots in the '80s and '90s.

00:53:33   And a lot of people using FileMaker

00:53:35   have used it for a really long time.

00:53:38   And we're going to talk about the company's desire

00:53:40   to change that.

00:53:41   But this is kind of where they were in the 2000s.

00:53:45   2007, they introduced Bento.

00:53:47   Do you remember this?

00:53:48   You were a Mac user about this time.

00:53:49   - Yeah, yeah, yeah, I, like every Mac user,

00:53:52   bought Bento and didn't know what to do with it.

00:53:54   - Yeah, so it was a database application,

00:53:56   and it felt like an iWork app, right?

00:54:00   Like it really felt like it should've just been

00:54:01   part of iWork and not FileMaker.

00:54:03   They got into hot water because version two

00:54:06   was the same cost as version one,

00:54:08   they didn't do upgrade pricing and people were very upset.

00:54:10   You know, Bento had a couple of versions,

00:54:11   three or four versions, and then sort of went away

00:54:14   six years later in 2013.

00:54:17   I think because, like you said,

00:54:19   no one really knew what to do with it.

00:54:21   And it was basically single user.

00:54:23   So Bento was not a thing to build invoicing

00:54:26   for your whole office.

00:54:27   It was a if you want to build some sort of database

00:54:29   to do personal tracking of some sort.

00:54:32   And I guess there just wasn't a wide enough audience for that.

00:54:36   I played with it and certainly didn't know what to do with it.

00:54:39   So that went away.

00:54:40   And there's no database software really at the iWork level.

00:54:44   FileMaker's a pro app.

00:54:47   There's no consumer version of it on the Mac, from Apple

00:54:50   at least.

00:54:50   So that brings us to today.

00:54:52   They've been trucking along with FileMaker.

00:54:54   They have had some leadership changes,

00:54:57   and now they have a new product.

00:54:59   And they've really gone out on a limb.

00:55:00   They've named it Clarus Connect.

00:55:02   This is what it does.

00:55:04   I'm going to read this.

00:55:05   "A tool for integrating various cloud services

00:55:08   and automating workflows between them."

00:55:10   Yeah, I've tried to do some research on this, right?

00:55:13   Because that is maddening.

00:55:15   it's maddening the way that that is written because it's like, oh, you're doing nothing

00:55:20   and everything? Basically, Clarus acquired a company called Stampley, which was about

00:55:30   trying to help you as a new developer, bring together a bunch of services that have APIs

00:55:36   in a way that you didn't have to do a ton of work with. So if you wanted to have like

00:55:40   payments, file storage, you could just use the API as all these web services and like

00:55:44   really easily integrate them into your product.

00:55:48   So what it seems like Clarus is doing

00:55:51   is trying to find a way to take all of these cloud services

00:55:56   and have them talk to your database and vice versa.

00:55:59   It seems like, from what they're describing--

00:56:01   because Stanley was described as a source--

00:56:04   that they're trying to build like an IFTTT

00:56:07   or a Zapier-like product for Enterprise for FileMaker.

00:56:12   And I'm sure that Claris Connect will become a center point

00:56:16   for a lot of the products that Claris is looking to build.

00:56:18   'Cause they have a bunch of blog posts

00:56:20   on their company blog.

00:56:21   They've been posting like wild for the last three days.

00:56:24   They're so excited, I love them, they're the best.

00:56:26   And it seems like Claris is building lots of products now.

00:56:31   Like they are now, they have a new vision

00:56:33   and they're like, right,

00:56:34   we're gonna build a bunch of stuff.

00:56:35   It seemed like that they were kind of just

00:56:37   chugging along for a while and they had this new CEO

00:56:39   It's got a bunch of ideas and they're just going for it.

00:56:42   Like they want more users, they want to make more products.

00:56:45   Like they're trying to become a cloud focused company.

00:56:48   - Which makes sense.

00:56:49   I mean, if you think about how FileMaker has worked

00:56:51   is you have a server in your office

00:56:54   just serving it up to your employees.

00:56:56   Like they probably have information in cloud services

00:56:58   and you need to integrate with that to stay relevant.

00:57:02   And so it makes a lot of sense.

00:57:04   - FileMaker will die otherwise.

00:57:05   - Yeah.

00:57:06   - Like because no one new is gonna use it.

00:57:08   People are using things like Airtable or even Google Sheets or again just building custom

00:57:14   apps.

00:57:15   And there are things that only FileMaker can do, but there's also a ton of software as

00:57:19   a service companies out there that can meet a lot of people's needs.

00:57:23   So those blog posts, by the way, are impossible to read.

00:57:27   It's all like businessy jargon and...

00:57:29   Yeah, yeah.

00:57:30   That's rough.

00:57:31   I read the blurb and I was like, "Oh, they're making Zapier."

00:57:34   And then I read this blog post and then when I woke up from blacking out, I realized I

00:57:39   had no idea what was happening.

00:57:41   It's pretty confusing.

00:57:42   I only think I know what they're doing.

00:57:44   They're looking to remain relevant.

00:57:46   They want to triple their customer base.

00:57:49   Currently FileMaker, the product, not the company, currently serves more than a million

00:57:55   end user and 50,000 different companies, they say, which is bigger than I thought it was.

00:58:01   We heard from most of them when you guys dissed FileMaker a couple months ago.

00:58:04   I do look at that and I'm like, yeah, I'm sure, but how many of these people are using

00:58:09   it because it's what the company uses?

00:58:12   And it's what the company used 20 years ago, so now they can't get away from it.

00:58:17   Right, not a lot of new people coming to FileMaker, like you said, but they want to change that.

00:58:21   Maybe now, maybe now.

00:58:22   Yeah, Claris Connect will make it, I guess, easier to integrate a cloud service or two

00:58:27   into your database.

00:58:28   So I wish them well because FileMaker is a well-known and beloved brand in the sort of

00:58:34   Mac world.

00:58:36   And it's also just an interesting company to talk about because Apple owns them and

00:58:40   they've been so quiet for so long, sort of quietly serving their customer base.

00:58:44   But they're looking to make some moves and this new CEO seems really exciting and I think

00:58:49   we're going to hear more about him moving forward.

00:58:51   I do really like the idea that like this news breaks and Tim Cook's like, "Wait, what?

00:58:58   letting them do all this yeah very good sorry good this episode of connected is

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01:00:43   - So Apple apparently have shipped an estimated,

01:00:46   this is estimated by one of the various analyst firms,

01:00:50   5.7 million watches worldwide during this past quarter.

01:00:54   Wow.

01:00:54   Apple said they had a good quarter. That was one of the things that they were talking about. But

01:00:58   Apple have never gave any details about Apple Watch. I mean, they give no details about sales

01:01:04   units of anything now, but they never have given. So we don't have a baseline. There's

01:01:07   never been a baseline, right, to set it to, but people can work it out using algorithms,

01:01:13   I'm sure. Apparently, this earns them 46% market share.

01:01:18   I'm interested what market is that like is that all watches I don't know and its continued position

01:01:23   is number one smartwatch company so that's great right yeah good for apple watch rocking and rolling

01:01:29   what is the market share of apple watch amongst this podcast uh not very good

01:01:34   is it 33 or is it 66 uh I think it's closer to 33 so maybe it's 46 46 so what what you are

01:01:47   getting at is my use of the Apple watch because you left it behind a year ago

01:01:52   over a year ago May last year was the last time I wore an Apple watch with any

01:01:58   seriousness so my use is a little bit different than that I do not wear it

01:02:03   daily anymore but I do put it on to work out so going to the gym going for a bike

01:02:09   ride going for a walk or a run past that though I don't wear it day to day I

01:02:14   I don't wear it to work, even when I travel it stays at home.

01:02:19   This sort of happened gradually for me.

01:02:23   Where I've always had other watches and I've always liked those other watches.

01:02:28   Over time I realized that even with tweaking the notifications and basically turning almost

01:02:33   all of them off, I still felt like the watch was too invasive into my life.

01:02:39   And I feel like I stand on one side of the debate most people have about the watch where

01:02:46   most people look at the watch and say, Oh, it's great.

01:02:49   I can glance at my notifications, I can see if anything's important.

01:02:53   And I can ignore it or I can deal with it if I need to, but they use it as a triage

01:02:57   of sorts for your notifications.

01:02:59   I think that's how you used to use your watch.

01:03:01   A lot of people really like that about the Apple Watch, but over time, I grew to dislike

01:03:06   it more and more, where I felt like even with very pared down notifications, I didn't want

01:03:13   the world following me around on my wrist all the time, that if I left my phone in the

01:03:18   other room, or went somewhere without it, that that was okay.

01:03:24   The Apple Watch is interesting too, because it is about as old as Relay.

01:03:28   It came out, I think about the same time.

01:03:31   I've had one for relays, you know, for several years, because in those first several years,

01:03:38   I really felt like I needed to be available as much as possible because you know, we were

01:03:42   growing company with infrastructure issues in the beginning and had to really make our

01:03:49   website more robust and all of our systems more robust.

01:03:51   And so I felt like I always needed to be around.

01:03:54   And this really has become more mature.

01:03:56   And as my sort of day to day has changed over the last couple of years, I realized that

01:04:01   that wasn't really true and that if I if someone really needed me my that honestly

01:04:07   there's my phone is with me almost all the time anyways but I felt like the

01:04:12   watch more and more was a handcuff to the internet not a way to just glance at

01:04:16   the internet and then carry on and I don't know why I feel that way I'm not

01:04:20   sure what that says about my usage of the watch it's just how I feel so I'm

01:04:24   not projecting down to anybody not projecting anything onto the we are in a

01:04:28   no-judgment zone. We're in the no-judgment zone. Thank you. So that's

01:04:33   just kind of how I felt about it. And so as an experiment I said, you know, I'm

01:04:36   gonna go a week without wearing it. I'm gonna wear-- I still wear a watch, wear a

01:04:40   watch every day. I like having the time and date on my wrist. I still to this day

01:04:44   sometimes, if it's cloudy, look at my watch wondering if it's going to rain.

01:04:48   And you know what? This mechanical watch cannot tell me that. So I do miss having

01:04:52   weather on my wrist. But I said, you know, for a week I'm not gonna wear it and I'm

01:04:58   going to see if I feel like I'm missing out on things or if I feel like this thought I

01:05:03   had of like I need I feel like it's a handcuff like is that actually true or not.

01:05:08   And it was great.

01:05:09   And one week became two and two weeks became two months and I haven't won a watch consistently

01:05:15   a good part of this year.

01:05:17   And I said I still wear it for the exercise tracking.

01:05:19   I like Apple Health.

01:05:21   I like the workout tracking.

01:05:22   I'm not super interested in replacing the Apple Watch with something like a Fitbit for

01:05:26   those things.

01:05:27   I like the way the watch handles itself in exercise.

01:05:31   And most of the time too, if I'm exercising,

01:05:33   if I'm at the gym or especially if I'm on my bike

01:05:36   and someone needs to get in touch with me,

01:05:38   the watch is the way that happens.

01:05:40   And so I like the connectivity while I'm working out.

01:05:44   So if my wife calls me and my phone is in the locker

01:05:47   in the weight room, or if I'm on my bike

01:05:49   and someone needs to get ahold of me,

01:05:52   again, through my very narrow gate of notifications

01:05:55   and my phone is not accessible,

01:05:57   I can at least see that, oh, one of my parents is calling me, my brother texted me, Myke

01:06:02   is texting me, something, you know.

01:06:05   I can at least kind of be available.

01:06:07   And so I actually like it in those situations.

01:06:09   So that's why I'm keeping it.

01:06:10   I have a Series 4.

01:06:12   I'm not going to buy a Series 5 this fall, but I haven't ejected it from my life like

01:06:18   you have and some others have.

01:06:19   It still has a place.

01:06:20   It's just a very small and diminished role.

01:06:23   I've got to say, the times that I do wear it to the gym or whatever, it doesn't stay

01:06:27   on the whole day.

01:06:28   I get home, I shower, it goes back in the drawer or on the charger, whatever the case

01:06:32   may be.

01:06:33   And that's kind of where I am with it, to the point where I don't really know what's

01:06:38   coming in the new version of WatchOS.

01:06:40   I haven't paid that close attention to it.

01:06:42   And I just feel like, while a lot of people, it adds a lot to their lives, for whatever

01:06:48   reason, I don't feel that way about it.

01:06:51   So I am, I've joined the Club of Myke when it comes to the Apple Watch.

01:06:58   Oh, it's the Club of Marco.

01:06:59   Club of Marco.

01:07:00   #MarcoIsRight.

01:07:01   Yeah, I followed Marco, and now you followed along in my footsteps.

01:07:09   What you said about why it doesn't work for you is pretty much the same for me.

01:07:13   You know, I just figure that my phone is around whenever I want to be contacted, and if it's

01:07:20   it's not there or I probably don't want to be. And the watch never really allowed me

01:07:25   to be away from that. I was very set on the fact that I figured I needed notifications

01:07:31   for everything always and then stopped wearing the watch and realized I don't and I don't

01:07:35   want it either. It was just a thing that I didn't know would happen to me until I stopped

01:07:40   wearing it and I knew within a week that I didn't want to wear it anymore. Like it was

01:07:44   very quick where I was like oh no I don't want it anymore I have all the

01:07:50   notifications of my phone my phone will buzz and light up when I need it and

01:07:53   then when I don't want it it goes away and yeah I could do not disturb the

01:07:57   watch but what's the point right like for me I genuinely feel like I only have

01:08:03   two options I either wear the watch and have all notifications go to it that I

01:08:08   ever want to know about or I don't wear it like there isn't an idea of like well

01:08:13   why don't I just wear it and have a few things? No, because my phone can do that.

01:08:16   Like it's cool, right? Like for me it just doesn't work out. And then the other

01:08:21   thing, I really like watches. I like the way they look. I like that I can choose.

01:08:27   You can also change the bands, right? Like it's not like an Apple watch only thing,

01:08:31   right? Like I like looking at pictures of watches. I like owning watches. I enjoy

01:08:37   that I can put on a completely different watch from day to day depending on what

01:08:43   I'm wearing with an Apple watch you're always kind of wearing an Apple watch no

01:08:47   matter what you do to it they are very good-looking they do not look as good as

01:08:51   any watch that I own right like like real watches to me and my taste look

01:08:58   better than every Apple watch no matter what the face is right because they

01:09:02   still look like little computers and that's just not for me now that was why

01:09:06   I bought my first mechanical watch was because I didn't want to have an Apple

01:09:10   watching on in my wedding photos and I am so happy I made that decision because

01:09:14   I wouldn't have looked good it wouldn't have looked good now because it would

01:09:17   have been a series 3 and the series 3 looks like this ugly refrigerator

01:09:20   compared to the series 4 right like the series 4 is so much better looking like

01:09:26   it is a beautiful beautiful watch for what it is and what it is is a computer

01:09:32   still but in five years the series 4 will look old so you know time marches on

01:09:37   you should you should say what watch you're wearing at the moment because

01:09:40   people will want to know what what you you have moved to today I'm watching I'm

01:09:44   watching today I'm watching Myke today I'm wearing a watch by instrument which

01:09:50   is a company in the UK but I also have a Seiko that I really like and a calculator

01:09:55   watch so I bounce around a little bit for me the requirement is the date like

01:10:00   having the date and day if possible but definitely a date window and I kind of

01:10:05   agree with you and none of my watches are expensive really I mean watches are

01:10:09   like audio equipment you can spend as much money as you have. I'm playing in

01:10:13   the the very low end of things. For now, for now, I keep sending you watches that

01:10:20   I think that you'd be interested in and I think eventually... Oh I've got a bucket

01:10:23   list right? Eventually you'll get at least one. I've got a bucket list but you

01:10:28   don't have to spend, what's great about it is you don't have to spend a lot of

01:10:30   money to have something that looks really nice and there are so many

01:10:34   the options. Like like my Seiko is black and orange with a chrome body. And like, I love

01:10:40   black and orange. I love orange and chrome. I like black and chrome, like, or stainless

01:10:45   steel. But it was like the like, Oh, I love everything about how this looks. And you can

01:10:50   find that in the watch world. And even with the new, you know, new watch OS versions and

01:10:56   new watches you are limited into what Apple thinks people want and starting

01:11:05   with the Series 4 I was really unhappy with all the watch faces. I used the the

01:11:10   modular one so there's like a bunch of data on it which is fine but I didn't

01:11:15   like the new watch the main new watch face I thought they sort of butchered

01:11:19   all the old ones when they went bigger and I want something that if I'm gonna

01:11:24   wear on my body every day. I want to be really happy with it. And you know,

01:11:28   you may, people may think that's vain, I guess to a certain degree it is, but we

01:11:33   do that with, we do that... No, it's fashion. It is fashion, and we do that with

01:11:38   the rest of what we do, right? We wear our favorite podcast t-shirts, and we do all

01:11:43   these things because they project something about us into the world, and

01:11:49   when I see that whatever watch I'm wearing that day, I'm happy

01:11:53   that slack can't bother me on it. And I'm happy that it is

01:11:57   exactly what I want. And, you know, you have a question on

01:11:59   this doc about what could bring you back to the Apple Watch. And

01:12:03   I'm not sure there is anything at this point, I will continue

01:12:07   to wear it for fitness and exercise tracking. And that

01:12:09   means you know, every couple of years, I'll buy a new one for

01:12:12   that I use that enough to continue that investment. I'm

01:12:16   not going to buy five the series for series four is really good.

01:12:18   Like as a sidebar, the series for watches really great.

01:12:22   So that's gonna do me for a long time.

01:12:25   But that's kind of where I am.

01:12:28   Federico has two or three,

01:12:30   so I guess maybe he balances us out here,

01:12:32   but I've just really cooled on it

01:12:35   over the last several months.

01:12:37   - I wanted to mention, 'cause people might ask me too,

01:12:40   I recommend a brand called Farah.

01:12:42   They're a British brand.

01:12:43   I put them in the show notes too.

01:12:44   I'm very into their watches right now.

01:12:47   and they have a wide variance in cost from like you can get watches from them that are

01:12:54   300 pounds or you can go up to like 1700 pounds and it depends. I have a quartz watch that

01:12:59   they make which I love just very very dearly which is called the Pendine. I like that watch

01:13:07   very very much. I think you've seen me wearing that one.

01:13:12   Yeah it's great.

01:13:13   It's beautiful, beautiful thing.

01:13:14   I am with you in that I am not really there kind of isn't anything that Apple

01:13:21   would be able to do to the Apple Watch, like specifically to bring me back to it.

01:13:24   Like I may well and I expect that I will buy another Apple Watch at some point.

01:13:29   Like I genuinely believe I will do that.

01:13:31   But it won't be a product that I wear every day.

01:13:34   Like it might be a product that I wear under specific circumstances.

01:13:37   It might be like a health tracking tool, right?

01:13:39   Like that you have.

01:13:40   But just as like, I could never imagine wearing a computer watch all the time.

01:13:48   I can imagine it having a use case, like how I imagine having watches in my future

01:13:54   that I only ever wear when I'm wearing a suit or something, right?

01:13:58   Like that they are very specific purposes.

01:14:02   And I just think that this is just, I think I genuinely think that the Apple Watch is

01:14:07   just more of a when it comes down to like a divisive product for people. I think it's

01:14:12   like you know if you are in the world today by and large you probably need a smartphone

01:14:19   of some kind right like it's it's become one of those things where like in the vast majority

01:14:24   of the world to get by you need to own a smartphone. I don't think that smartwatches are even nearly

01:14:32   at that level yet and I don't know if they ever will be either and so I just think that

01:14:39   this is much more of a like does this meet your personal needs and my personal needs

01:14:46   like the Apple watch does a very bad job of the low bar of what I want to watch to do

01:14:52   which is to always be able to show me the time which it cannot do right like I can look

01:14:58   down right now and see the time on my watch my Apple watch would not be able

01:15:01   to display that without movement and that's just a thing that that frustrates

01:15:05   me like it's a it's almost like a like a meme or a running joke at this point

01:15:09   with the Apple watch but it's just something that I genuinely want and it

01:15:15   doesn't do that so it fails in one very very important area and everything the

01:15:22   Apple watch can do my phone can do better and I tend to have my phone with

01:15:27   me whenever I would need to do something. So that's that. No judgment. No

01:15:33   judgment zone. No judgment. I was a devout user of the Apple Watch for many years

01:15:37   and I genuinely think what you were saying, I'd never thought of it that like

01:15:41   as kind of our working lives calmed down, like everything wasn't so urgent all the

01:15:47   time, that maybe that's why I've been able to relax it a little bit. Yeah and

01:15:53   And you and I have this thing too, and I think it just sort of formed over time.

01:15:58   We're like, we've talked about this before, but we talk about like life stuff and iMessage.

01:16:04   Slack is work.

01:16:06   And like, if something's really on fire, like this has happened a couple of times, you or

01:16:11   I would just call each other.

01:16:12   And like, I know that if you are FaceTime calling me, like something is happening, right?

01:16:19   And vice versa.

01:16:20   very, probably only a couple times over the years. If you move away from the

01:16:25   Apple Watch and you do work with somebody closely and the watch was part

01:16:28   of that, you do have to build other systems in. Especially if you use the

01:16:31   Apple Watch for years and years would become reliant on it. But I learned, I

01:16:35   think you have too, that you don't, you can make those changes and it'd be

01:16:38   pretty seamless if you spend some time thinking through it. I think that does it.

01:16:42   As an update Federico sent a gif that is just somebody saying the lies,

01:16:48   the lies over and over again could still be automated could be there's no way to

01:16:53   know that seems like a bot there's no way to know. There's no way to report him on Twitter. The Giphy bot can just

01:16:58   send what feels like very poignant gifs sometimes so report tweet to Twitter

01:17:04   if you want to find links to stuff we spoke about this week including the

01:17:09   survey for Relay FM Family Feud and our merchandise and membership and all the

01:17:16   other stuff, head on over to relay.fm slash connected slash 255. While you're

01:17:22   there, you can get in touch via email or of course you can do so on Twitter. You

01:17:26   can find Myke there as I M Y. K e Myke is the co-host of many shows here at

01:17:32   relay FM. So if you love his is smooth, gentle British voice, I don't know if

01:17:39   your voice is gentle. Say something gentle Myke. Flowers. That's pretty

01:17:45   If you want more of that, head on over to relay.fm/shows and you can find Myke's work

01:17:51   there.

01:17:52   Three ply toilet paper.

01:17:53   Are youse reading your shopping list?

01:17:56   Wait, you think I want to buy flowers, puppies, and toilet paper?

01:18:01   What kind of shopping list is that?

01:18:02   I mean, two of the three.

01:18:03   I mean, the puppies is an outlier.

01:18:04   That's true.

01:18:05   That's true.

01:18:06   You don't like pop down to the store and pick up a few things and surprise the dean of the

01:18:09   flowers sometimes?

01:18:10   I don't need to justify my romantic relationships with you.

01:18:15   Okay.

01:18:16   You never bring me flowers.

01:18:18   I know that.

01:18:20   You want flowers?

01:18:21   No, I think I'm good.

01:18:22   I'm going to bring you flowers now.

01:18:25   Okay.

01:18:26   Okay.

01:18:27   I expect them now when I pick you up from the airport.

01:18:30   You can follow me on Twitter @ismh and I write over at 512pixels.net.

01:18:36   Federico or the bot that is in Federico's Twitter account now is at Vitici, V I T I

01:18:42   C C I and he is the editor in chief of max stories.net. I'd like to thank our sponsors

01:18:49   this week, Squarespace hover and care of until next time, Myke, say goodbye.

01:18:54   Cheerio. Adios.