228: Oh No, Ovo!


00:00:00   (upbeat music)

00:00:02   - Hello and welcome to Connected, episode 228.

00:00:12   It is made possible this week by our sponsors,

00:00:14   Luna Display, Draughts, and Squarespace.

00:00:17   I'm your host, Steven Hackett,

00:00:18   and I am joined by Mr. Federico Vittucci.

00:00:21   - Hello, Steven, how are you?

00:00:23   - I'm good, how are you?

00:00:24   - I'm running a bit of a fever, but I'm fine.

00:00:27   I'm a... first time I do a feverish podcast, I think.

00:00:31   Actually, not the first time. Back in the prompt days, I did an episode where I had

00:00:36   really a high fever, but today I'm actually doing pretty okay compared to that time.

00:00:41   So yeah, I will manage.

00:00:43   If I disappear at some point, it's because I died. No, I'm kidding. I'll be okay.

00:00:49   I'm gonna drop a clip of that show in right here.

00:00:51   No, no! Oh, God.

00:00:53   [Music]

00:00:56   I'm almost sweaty and sore and I just, you know, I drank some milk.

00:01:03   And Myke Hurley's here as well.

00:01:05   Every episode is like a fever dream to me, and here I am.

00:01:09   It's good, it's good.

00:01:10   Fever dreams are wild.

00:01:15   So we're back.

00:01:16   There's a lot to talk about.

00:01:17   You know, sometimes January is slow, and that is not the case this year.

00:01:22   This week has been a month.

00:01:24   It's been a real big one.

00:01:26   Yeah.

00:01:27   It really feels that way.

00:01:28   But before we get to all that, we have some follow up.

00:01:31   And my only question really is, Myke, are you still using your iPad screen protector?

00:01:35   Yes.

00:01:36   Oh my god, why?

00:01:40   Basically, my opinion has remained mostly unchanged from last week.

00:01:44   It's like, it does feel nice to use.

00:01:48   I do still can very much see that it's on there.

00:01:51   But the Apple Pencil does feel nicer on it.

00:01:53   So I feel like my opinion remains exactly the same, so it's not come off yet.

00:02:00   Because I haven't had any realizations in either direction.

00:02:06   So it might be sticking around, I don't know, it might be sticking around.

00:02:08   Would you consider an artist, Myke, yourself at this point?

00:02:14   Given that you're using paper and... okay.

00:02:16   I'm using paper and fountain pens right now.

00:02:19   Mm-hmm.

00:02:20   So, you know, I'm fancy.

00:02:23   Very fancy.

00:02:24   We'll continue to check in over the next few weeks.

00:02:29   I really don't think you will come to WWDC with the Paperlike on your iPad.

00:02:34   But well, you won't see it because I won't bring that one.

00:02:37   Well, that's cheating then.

00:02:39   But to be honest, if I keep if I keep it on the 12/9

00:02:43   until June, I probably would have got it for my 11 by then.

00:02:47   Right. As the official adjudicator of this controversy,

00:02:51   I should be able to check whether you have the Paperlike installed or not.

00:02:54   Well, you'll probably come to my home anyway, so even if I don't have it on the 11, but

00:02:59   I say I'm keeping it on the 12, then you'll be able to see it.

00:03:01   You can verify it.

00:03:02   Okay, we'll live stream the results.

00:03:05   Please do.

00:03:08   This is definitely something nobody will remember.

00:03:11   Oh boy, we've been speaking about rumors of new iPads and everyone's friend Steve Trout

00:03:18   Smith has found evidence in iOS 12.2 of four new iPads, two Wi-Fi and two cellular.

00:03:28   They don't seem to have face ID.

00:03:31   And there's also evidence of an iPod touch with no touch ID and no face ID.

00:03:35   So I don't know what's going on with the iPod touch.

00:03:38   But these things, I think I'm a believer.

00:03:40   I think we're going to see new iPads and iPod touches here pretty soon.

00:03:43   The iPod touch bothers me.

00:03:45   Why?

00:03:46   Don't rain on the parade.

00:03:47   It just seems weird.

00:03:48   seems so weird. Like unless it looks like a iPhone 10, then I just don't understand

00:03:56   why they're doing it now. Right. Like it just seems so strange to me.

00:04:00   It's like a notch, but with no face ID. That'd be that'd be exciting.

00:04:04   But like, oh, yeah, that's a good point. But like, it just if you use it, then great. Like

00:04:11   more power to you. And I'm sure this is going to be great for you. And I even kind of feel

00:04:14   this way with the iPad mini to a part as well, but I just don't understand why you would

00:04:20   leave a product around for so long unchanged and then change it a little bit, right? Because

00:04:26   let's be real, that iPod touch is most likely just going to get a processor update or whatever,

00:04:32   and then it's kind of just like I don't understand why this product still exists. How many are

00:04:35   you really selling? It just seems really strange to me. I don't know. I don't know. I don't

00:04:41   get it.

00:04:42   So what you're saying is you're not going to pre-order iPod Touch?

00:04:46   It is unlikely. I would consider that to be quite unlikely.

00:04:50   If you did, would you put a screen protector on it?

00:04:52   No.

00:04:53   Well, not into screen protectors for screen protector's sake, you know. There isn't one

00:04:58   going on my iPhone. It's all to do with the Apple Pencil. That's what it's all to do with.

00:05:03   What if this iPod Touch upgrade is just like one of those things that Apple does? It's

00:05:07   like a price change and some minor component change and maybe it's like $20 more expensive.

00:05:14   Like it's not a new iPod touch, it's just a minor spec bump.

00:05:18   But that's my point though, like I just don't get why you would leave it for so long and

00:05:23   then do so little. Right? When was the last update on the iPod touch?

00:05:29   It was a couple of years ago when I bought it last summer, you remember? And then I forgot

00:05:36   that I had one. It was July of 2015 and it was upgraded then to include the Apple A8

00:05:48   processor. So like that's in the HomePod. This is my question or it's just like if

00:05:54   you leave it for four years untouched I just it's just seems strange. It went three years before that.

00:06:05   I mean the touch is on a slow refresh cycle at this point.

00:06:08   All right, so what if it's a 10R without the phone part,

00:06:16   without, you know, maybe slightly worse cameras and Apple keeps saying this is a game console?

00:06:22   I mean, I think so that's what I'm saying.

00:06:25   Like, I would have no problem.

00:06:28   I don't like have a big problem.

00:06:30   Like, it's just like, I'm just like wondering about it, right?

00:06:32   But like, if they made some visual design change, like how do you change the hardware,

00:06:36   like it's a new product, I would be like, okay, fine, right? Like, but there's something about

00:06:43   like, if they're all they do is they just open it up, they put a chip in, they close it up again,

00:06:47   and keep selling the exact same product. It just seems weird to me, where it's like,

00:06:52   why would you leave? Why? If it's important enough for you to change it at all,

00:06:57   why do you leave it for years between revisions?

00:07:01   Maybe part of it is price that if they say they put an A9 in this thing or maybe even an A10,

00:07:07   the prices come down on those chips at this point where they can do that and still sell this thing

00:07:12   for whatever it is, $249. Right. Right. But I just wonder how many they're selling. It's so funny to

00:07:23   me the the uh the iPod touch web page on apple.com it's like a time machine yeah yeah well the it's

00:07:29   if you go to apple.com slash shop blah blah blah by iPod touch it is the old store design

00:07:36   oh my god yeah that's incredible that that'll be in the show notes what what what how how is that

00:07:45   yeah also i want to correct myself it starts at 199 for the 32 gig so it is i mean it's cheap and

00:07:52   So my thought on this is that if they do this, they've got to keep it at this low price point.

00:07:59   That necessitates some things like no face ID. And according to what Steve has found,

00:08:04   no touch ID either. It doesn't have touch ID now, just a regular old home button. So

00:08:09   maybe all they do is, like you said, crack it open and just put another CPU in it,

00:08:13   which I think is all it takes really. Just like slip it in in the air gap and shut it real quick

00:08:16   so it can't get out. Yeah, it's probably getting any dust in there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do it quick.

00:08:21   quick.

00:08:22   Sure, look, if they're gonna do it, then do it. I wonder about the decisions that get

00:08:28   made that lead to something like this, and it just seems really strange to me. I do wonder

00:08:33   as well, again, for a large audience of people, do you need both the iPod Touch and the iPad

00:08:40   Mini? Is there not close enough overlap between those two products at this point?

00:08:46   Yes there is some. I just figured that the iPod touch is for toddlers and the iPad mini

00:08:51   is for kids aged 6 and up. Something like that.

00:08:55   Paired same with Federigo.

00:08:57   It's...

00:08:58   That's how it works, right?

00:08:59   No, I'm sure that like, this is something that people do, but like, that can't be why

00:09:05   these products exist though, right?

00:09:07   Maybe then it just, I don't know, why do you think they exist?

00:09:13   So it currently fills a line on a spreadsheet, like, let's look at our pricing options across

00:09:20   the...

00:09:21   Well, there you go, that's a good enough explanation to me.

00:09:22   But, but like...

00:09:23   It's not an ideal situation, but...

00:09:27   It's also the only iOS device that sits with a headphone jack, so it has that going for

00:09:32   it if you're into that.

00:09:33   I don't think that's a priority.

00:09:34   I don't think that's...

00:09:35   It is for some websites.

00:09:37   Right, so then it's like, then like, that's when I start to think, like, this is strange,

00:09:42   right, that like Apple would ship a new product that has both a headphone jack and a home

00:09:45   button.

00:09:47   And it's just like, it seems really weird, right?

00:09:51   It is weird, but I mean, you know, if the price point's important to them, then they've

00:09:57   got to do this sort of thing.

00:09:59   You know, I do wonder, we're not going to really talk about it, I don't think.

00:10:04   Y'all talked to, y'all did a really good section on this on upgrade this week.

00:10:06   I'll point people there.

00:10:07   Like this rumor that Apple's gonna do a game streaming service of some sort, like, who

00:10:13   knows.

00:10:14   But, maybe this is the way into that.

00:10:18   Maybe they really rebuilt this thing.

00:10:19   It's not gonna be powerful enough for most of the good games that they would want to

00:10:22   be talking about.

00:10:24   Probably not if it's $1.99, but if it's $2.99 and you could put A11 in it, maybe it is.

00:10:29   But then who's buying, like, but then at that price, with those specs, there's probably

00:10:34   a better product closer. Which is then an iPad, right? Of some description. Which would

00:10:40   be better for games anyway. Maybe the iPod touch is just the new expensive

00:10:45   Siri remote. It works better than the Siri remote.

00:10:50   Maybe that's what it actually does. With 12.2, I guess it will work and it's

00:10:54   got about as many useful buttons on it as the Siri remote does. Bigger touchscreen area.

00:10:59   Yeah, let's go for it. So we'll all just buy them for... It's like how we all buy Mac

00:11:04   minis for home servers will buy iPod touches for Apple TV remotes.

00:11:08   That's right. I have some real-time follow-up that the 9.7 inch iPad and the iPad mini you

00:11:14   can still buy still comes with the headphone jack. So I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

00:11:19   Right, but it's new products, right?

00:11:22   New products, yeah.

00:11:23   Because when the 9.7 inch was released, you could still buy iPhones with headphone jacks

00:11:29   on them.

00:11:30   Who knows? I just find it interesting because this is a product that clearly the three of

00:11:35   us at least are struggling with to kind of put in the world. And so I think Apple, like

00:11:42   they could just update it and whatever, do it with a press release. But if they tell

00:11:46   a story around it, I'll be really interested to see what that is. I want to know what Apple

00:11:50   thinks, who Apple thinks this device is for. That's an interesting question to me.

00:11:54   I straight up don't think you're going to get an answer out of them.

00:11:58   You don't think they're gonna like seed it to cool YouTubers and they're like, that's

00:12:02   probably not gonna happen is it?

00:12:04   No, no.

00:12:05   I don't think it would.

00:12:06   Right?

00:12:07   Like, I honestly I feel like it will probably just make some slight revisions to this very

00:12:13   very out of date page and then just like that's it.

00:12:16   Unless they do some kind of big visual design which as much as I would want them to do if

00:12:20   they're gonna make a new product like this, I doubt is gonna happen.

00:12:25   So moving on, the year of Steven has suffered a blow.

00:12:35   You had like the half of an episode of Steven, that was all you got, and then we're back

00:12:40   here again because your good friend Jonny with an H, Jonny Srouji, is reportedly staying

00:12:46   at Apple now, and he's not in the running for the Intel CEO position.

00:12:51   It's poor Johnny. I hope that that got him like a pay rise, you know, like the the

00:12:55   Rumor of him leaving Timmy brought him in and gave him a pay bump and he's like, haha

00:13:00   I was gonna do anything in the first place and it's all down to you Steven. You did this.

00:13:04   Steamy Johnny.

00:13:05   He's upset with our coverage of this and he heard the episode said screw that guy. I'm staying.

00:13:10   Sure, you can believe that.

00:13:12   He really doesn't want you to win the predictions.

00:13:14   Avid connected listener Johnny Srouji didn't want Steven to win. His hobby, besides making

00:13:23   chips is participating in connected.

00:13:26   He dislikes you so much he doesn't even want you to get the ungraded points.

00:13:30   I was gonna say, jokes on him, it's not even graded.

00:13:32   He doesn't even want you to have bragging rights.

00:13:36   Nothing. He doesn't want you to have a thing.

00:13:40   So, you spoke last time about reading and you asked the audience for suggestions and

00:13:46   like I saw like the email account and Twitter account, lots of suggestions.

00:13:49   So what is going on in the #TechieBookClub?

00:13:52   Okay, so first of all, thank you everyone who sent and is still sending book suggestions

00:13:57   on Twitter.

00:13:58   I'm saving the most interesting ones.

00:14:01   The recommendations so far have been really, really great, but something happened with

00:14:06   one specific recommendation that triggered something in me that I hadn't felt in several

00:14:12   years.

00:14:13   So, I'm gonna give you the summary of what happened first, then I wanna share some details.

00:14:20   I started reading a book last week and I'm now at iBooks, or Books, the app, says that

00:14:28   I'm 70% into this book.

00:14:31   So I think I'm gonna finish it between tonight or tomorrow.

00:14:35   So the book is called "Red Rising" by Pierce Brown. This recommendation came from listener

00:14:42   and Maxories reader, he says, Andras, I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly, and it was

00:14:50   the perfect recommendation for me. I'm just quoting a few, he sent me a very nice email,

00:14:55   I'm just quoting a few parts. Andras wrote "You said you love fiction like Harry Potter

00:15:01   and Lot of the Rings and were looking forward to get yourself into sci-fi a little more

00:15:05   but not too deeply. So that was key. I think I have the perfect recommendation for you,

00:15:09   and that's Pierce Brown's Red Rising books. So this is a whole series.

00:15:13   It's a whole series. There's, I think, three books already out, and one of them, the fourth one,

00:15:19   is coming out in 2019. What convinced me, besides the fact that he said it's like Harry Potter and

00:15:28   and Lord of the Rings, and sci-fi, but just not too deeply.

00:15:32   He wrote that even though I only have time to read while commuting,

00:15:37   I read the whole three available,

00:15:40   the series of three available books very quickly. So a busy person who got hooked on these books,

00:15:47   despite the fact that he has a job and cannot read during the commute,

00:15:50   Harry Potter style mixed with sci-fi, I mean. So I started reading and I was hooked in the first chapter.

00:15:58   Basically, it's the story of this...

00:16:02   It looks like there's five books.

00:16:04   Oh, five? Okay.

00:16:05   So...

00:16:05   Yeah, there's four out now, the fifth comes out in July.

00:16:08   The idea would be that it's set in the distant future,

00:16:11   I think the year 2700 or something.

00:16:14   Space has been colonized,

00:16:18   and Earth has fallen to these colonies.

00:16:23   There's a group of people leading this new space society called "The Society"

00:16:29   and the society has created various colonies on Mars and the Moon and I think Mercury even

00:16:36   and there's a hierarchy to the society and the protagonist is a slave.

00:16:43   Basically all the people are organized by colors so there's the reds and the blues and the greens

00:16:50   and the leading races are the golds.

00:16:53   And this is the story of this, I don't want to spoil it, but this is basically in the first,

00:16:57   not even the first half of the book, this person, this protagonist, who is setting up to

00:17:04   overthrow the society. That would be the basic story. And what I love about this book is that

00:17:09   it's not, when I say Harry Potter style, it's not that it's got magic, of course we have

00:17:17   crazy futuristic technology and all kinds of things that don't exist, but it's the pace of

00:17:25   the narration and the setting. So you have a young teenager as the main character and then you have

00:17:32   a school setting, so you get to know the protagonist in a school environment with schoolmates and

00:17:39   relationships between people who go to this school. It's very, very easy to read, very well done.

00:17:48   And I just keep thinking about the book when I'm not reading the book. All I want to do is read

00:17:58   this book. So I've stopped watching my TV shows, I've stopped playing video games because I just

00:18:03   want to finish the first book, and I cannot wait to see how it ends and I want to start on the

00:18:08   the second one. And I want to specify how I hadn't felt this way in years, like, basically

00:18:15   since the last Harry Potter book came out. So thank you Andras. Excellent recommendation.

00:18:23   Sounds like it's primed to be turned into a TV show or a movie.

00:18:26   I think the rights to the movie were actually sold to Sony a few years ago and the movie

00:18:31   is still in the works. Maybe that's what Wikipedia says at least.

00:18:36   author Pierce Brown is very handsome too. I'm very young. I looked on his Amazon page.

00:18:41   So if that is of concern to you, you now know that it was written by a handsome individual.

00:18:48   That is my official input on your book. I find the author handsome. Moving on.

00:18:54   Alright, I ordered a copy. I put it on my Kindle, so I'm gonna check that out. This

00:19:00   week marks the ninth birthday of the iPad, nine years since that keynote. We're not gonna

00:19:05   that today because nine years is a silly year to do that. We'll do that next year if we want.

00:19:10   But I do want to point people to connected episode 24 where we walked through that. We

00:19:18   walked through that keynote that was back in 2015. Solid episode. I listened to part of it the other

00:19:24   day and I think it holds up. So that keynote is really pretty outstanding. It's not iPhone level.

00:19:32   I don't think anything is iPhone level, but it's definitely got its own feeling that I

00:19:37   think is good.

00:19:39   And I had put that in the show notes and then I went to Twitter and Neil Aptel, the editor

00:19:45   chief of The Verge, tweeted that nine years ago today I published the first images of

00:19:50   an iPad before it was ever announced.

00:19:52   And I had totally forgotten about this.

00:19:55   But I remember those images.

00:19:56   I remember when it happened and I remembered how months later everybody figured out how

00:20:04   in the same pictures there was a hidden iPhone 4.

00:20:09   And we didn't notice at the time but it was there along with the first iPad.

00:20:15   It was right there in a corner of the pictures.

00:20:19   Totally nailed it, including running the Maps application.

00:20:23   This was a huge leak.

00:20:25   I remember people just freaking out.

00:20:27   So it was fun to--

00:20:29   Oh, yeah, look at that iPhone.

00:20:30   Ha, that's hilarious.

00:20:32   He's just sitting there on the table.

00:20:34   Yeah, just plugged right in.

00:20:35   That's brilliant.

00:20:36   God, that iPhone 4 had a wild life.

00:20:38   It sure did.

00:20:40   All right, tiny topic number two.

00:20:44   The most important thing.

00:20:45   This is the most important thing we're talking about today.

00:20:47   Yeah, we could just end the show after this.

00:20:49   This should be a large topic, not a tiny topic.

00:20:53   This is a massive topic.

00:20:55   This is a sizable topic.

00:20:57   I would say.

00:20:57   Apple this morning announced that Apple music subscribers can now stream from

00:21:04   Apple music on flights with American airlines that are equipped with wifi.

00:21:09   So I'm sure a lot of people are familiar, but if you're not a lot of airplanes

00:21:14   have wireless, but you got to pay for it.

00:21:15   Right?

00:21:15   So it's like, whatever it is, 10 bucks and you get to use wireless on the flight.

00:21:19   I, for one, I'm usually a sucker for this because usually I have work to do.

00:21:23   Not everyone wants to pay for it or can afford it, but it's there as an option for some.

00:21:28   And now you can use that and basically Apple Music is free over that wireless.

00:21:35   If you sign up while you're on an airplane, which is like, let's just take pause for a

00:21:39   second.

00:21:40   I don't know who is like subscribing to new music services while on an airplane.

00:21:43   Like because it was free, you decided to sign up.

00:21:47   I don't.

00:21:48   I do it all the time.

00:21:49   I go on flights just to sign up for free stuff.

00:21:52   I tried Tidal last time I went to Chicago, but... just kidding.

00:21:59   This is where if Myke was editing there'd be cricket sounds, but I'm not gonna do that

00:22:02   to myself.

00:22:03   Oh, you should.

00:22:05   If you were an impartial editor you would.

00:22:07   Yep.

00:22:08   But he's not.

00:22:09   My integrity's been called into question.

00:22:11   It's about ethics in podcast editing, Steven.

00:22:14   Do what you will, the listeners will judge.

00:22:17   I'm just saying.

00:22:18   (crickets chirping)

00:22:21   (laughing)

00:22:23   The most amazing part of this press release though

00:22:25   is the artwork.

00:22:27   This is drawn like the,

00:22:30   this is how you get out of the airplane

00:22:31   if it's on fire artwork that you are supposed to read

00:22:33   but no one does.

00:22:34   (laughing)

00:22:36   - It's so good. - It's amazing.

00:22:37   - This guy, he's just, he's choosing his music

00:22:41   and then he's enjoying it more than anybody's ever enjoyed

00:22:44   music on an airplane.

00:22:46   It's so good, out of context, they're so good.

00:22:49   We had a back and forth today between all of us on Twitter.

00:22:53   It was hilarious.

00:22:54   I will put a link in there.

00:22:55   I thought it was hilarious.

00:22:56   Where we just were assuming what that guy was listening to.

00:22:59   And this is why it has completely taken over

00:23:02   our brains today.

00:23:04   All I can think about is this guy.

00:23:06   I've downloaded the artwork,

00:23:07   so I'll have it on my computer forever.

00:23:09   It's just, the artwork is really funny.

00:23:12   Like it's just funny.

00:23:14   I also, like I was saying to Steven earlier, I don't understand why they did it.

00:23:19   This is way too much work from an artistic perspective than is required for this press

00:23:25   release.

00:23:26   In a photo of an Apple, just Apple Music, like any Apple Music image that they have

00:23:31   on a hard drive somewhere that they use for any press release would do, it did not require

00:23:35   this level of art direction, but I love so much that they bothered to do it, because

00:23:40   it's hilarious.

00:23:41   theory is that if you scroll the press release and you go all the way to the bottom you will

00:23:47   see that the press contact for Apple is Brian Bumbury. And my theory is that Brian in his

00:23:53   free time likes to draw. So what you see, the guy is actually Brian. This is him. It's

00:24:01   a self-portrait. It's like, he really enjoys it. This is what Brian does on the Apple paid

00:24:08   for flights to Chicago or whatever on American Airlines. This is Brian. This is what he does.

00:24:16   So thank you Brian for the artwork and the excellent press release. Really good job.

00:24:22   You should pursue your career as an artist also.

00:24:25   It's so meme-worthy. Like, just, it's, I love it so much.

00:24:30   It's really good. It's the show art this week. Go look at your podcast player.

00:24:37   I'm honestly considering that we just rebrand the entire show and it's just all based around this this airplane guy

00:24:42   Brian's the name is Brian

00:24:45   right

00:24:47   We've got a lot more to talk about this week

00:24:49   But first I want to tell you about our first sponsor and if you have a Mac or an iPad

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00:26:29   It's smart and it's gonna save you money on extra screens. I'm gonna give you that URL one more time

00:26:34   Luna display comm use the promo code connected you're gonna love it our thanks to Luna display for their support of this show and relay FM

00:26:42   So we've got a couple of things that I want to talk about today

00:26:46   with the biggest caveats of like they are really complicated and

00:26:52   They are still developing stories

00:26:54   But we cannot let this week's episode go by without talking about them. And the first one is the FaceTime issue

00:27:02   So as a very quick recap a couple of days ago

00:27:06   This was this was a Monday, right? I think it was on Monday

00:27:11   That sounds about right

00:27:14   Basically some

00:27:17   News has started to appear in certain outlets having been picked up from social media and reddit and places like that

00:27:23   That it was possible if you performed a series of steps to be able to call somebody on FaceTime

00:27:31   and if you added your own number to the phone call quickly it would

00:27:35   Consider that the call was failed on the recipients end but would open their microphone

00:27:41   So you could listen in to them and if you again press the series of buttons

00:27:46   I think it's like the volume buttons, you could for somehow turn on their microphone.

00:27:50   It's like the weirdest, strangest bug that somehow related in a pretty severe

00:27:59   privacy situation, funnily enough on Data Privacy Awareness Day, as our good old friend

00:28:09   Mr Cook tweeted, and then like an hour later this FaceTime bug started to appear.

00:28:15   Apple did the best thing they could have done in this situation was to on the server side

00:28:20   disable group FaceTime. This is only affected on group FaceTime calls. If it's one on one,

00:28:26   you can't add somebody to a call so you can't activate the microphone. And Apple released

00:28:31   a statement to say that they will have a fix out within the coming days to fix this. That doesn't

00:28:37   surprise me because honestly, this feels like a very serious bug that I'm sure is going to take

00:28:44   a ton of testing and work to fix. You know, I can see a lot of people being like, "This

00:28:48   is unacceptable, this amount of time." But I mean, I don't know enough about software

00:28:53   development, but I can only assume that a situation like this, you cannot call it completed

00:28:59   within a day because the amount of work it's probably going to take to fix it and test

00:29:03   it because you now have to test it way better than you tested it the first time. But at

00:29:10   at least Apple was very lucky I think that this is just a problem for group

00:29:14   FaceTime because if it was FaceTime as a whole I don't know if they could have

00:29:19   taken it down so easily because this is a communication method that people rely

00:29:24   on. It's not good I mean as far as bugs and Apple software in recent history

00:29:33   this I think for me is the worst by far. So I was thinking about this is this

00:29:38   worse than the root admin thing?

00:29:40   - So I want to compare it to that in a minute.

00:29:43   I'm going to put that in the parking lot for a second.

00:29:45   But because it enables microphone or camera access

00:29:49   without your knowledge, like that to me is beyond

00:29:56   anything else Apple has screwed up over the years.

00:29:59   And to be from a company that says they take this seriously,

00:30:04   it's awful.

00:30:06   I mean, I agree with the people who say

00:30:08   it's an inexcusable bug.

00:30:10   And it's one that they responded quickly

00:30:14   and they're gonna get a push out this week.

00:30:17   My guess is we'll see a version of iOS

00:30:19   maybe even tomorrow to fix that, if not this afternoon.

00:30:21   As far as things you can screw up,

00:30:23   I can't imagine many things worse

00:30:25   than camera and microphone access.

00:30:28   - I think this kind of thing couldn't be more embarrassing

00:30:31   than it is for Apple, right?

00:30:33   Like, of all companies, this is most embarrassing for them.

00:30:38   Like I've seen them, they put that big banner up,

00:30:43   didn't they, during CES?

00:30:45   Like, what happens on your iPhone stays on your iPhone.

00:30:48   I've been seeing that memed quite a lot

00:30:51   over the last couple of days,

00:30:52   because that is categorically, in this case, not true.

00:30:56   I mean, I even saw today,

00:30:57   like this is the thing,

00:30:58   this story is still continuing to develop,

00:31:00   but I saw today on MacRumors

00:31:01   that a lawyer is suing Apple for this

00:31:04   because somebody did this to them

00:31:07   and heard something about a case

00:31:09   that they was working on, right?

00:31:12   And so yeah, so Apple is here over a lawsuit

00:31:15   over FaceTime eavesdropping bug.

00:31:17   - Or think about people with like domestic abuse situations.

00:31:21   Like there is no good that comes out of a bug like this.

00:31:24   Right, it is--

00:31:24   - No, I mean, I even saw someone say like,

00:31:26   what about the president?

00:31:28   Right, like world leaders that have iPhones, right?

00:31:31   That is the part that has concerned me the most is, besides the actual consequences of this,

00:31:38   is the reaction that I've seen from a lot of people on Twitter saying that, basically,

00:31:44   a response along the lines of "So what? I have nothing to hide." And that, to me, is the symptom of,

00:31:51   I would call it a disease, actually, that as a society we've been numbed to believe that any

00:32:01   kind of privacy invasion is fine as long as we got nothing to hide and

00:32:05   the fact that we accept as

00:32:08   inconsequential a

00:32:11   Problem such as your phone can now listen into your private conversation

00:32:15   Or I got people saying well, so what I'm sleeping or so what I have a home pod or an Amazon echo

00:32:21   I saw that one as well, right? I already have microphones around me that can listen at all times the fact that you cannot see how

00:32:29   not even problematic doesn't even describe it, how wrong and dangerous it is.

00:32:35   For all kinds of people, whether you're sleeping or whether you're the president of a country or whether you're a lawyer working on a case,

00:32:43   being able to...

00:32:46   The ability for a phone to listen in the background is a problem, is a major problem

00:32:52   that shouldn't happen. And just because it happened to Apple and group FaceTime doesn't mean they are

00:32:58   from this because just as we get upset at Facebook or Google, we should

00:33:06   hold Apple accountable when these things happen to them. And the fact that I've

00:33:10   seen these reactions from people who tend to... these are the same people that

00:33:15   tend to justify anything that Apple does, which I don't think they're, from this

00:33:20   point of view, their opinion really counts. But the general sentiment of "I'm

00:33:24   I'm fine with the government or with Google or with Facebook or with Apple in this case

00:33:30   invading my privacy because I got nothing to hide.

00:33:33   That is what, and I'm not exaggerating here, this is what leads to the downfall of the

00:33:38   concept of individual privacy to the eyes of the government or any major organization.

00:33:43   It's so wrong I cannot even describe it.

00:33:46   This isn't even an AO, an Apple problem.

00:33:51   This is Apple having a hole in their software that enabled somebody else to break into somebody

00:33:57   else's privacy.

00:33:59   This isn't a situation where accidentally a bunch of information got uploaded to Apple's

00:34:04   servers but they were able to get rid of it.

00:34:07   This is a hole in their software enabled for a period of time which I don't even think

00:34:13   anybody knows how long that period of time could have been.

00:34:17   That's the other problem.

00:34:19   I would assume the worst that it's when they shipped this new group FaceTime and

00:34:23   iOS, what is it? 12.1. So it's been months.

00:34:26   Right. So, and you, I mean, look, we all know how the internet works.

00:34:30   There are people that have known about this and have been using this for a while.

00:34:33   Right. Like someone's found this and some people have been using this for nefarious

00:34:37   purposes, right?

00:34:38   Without saying anything about it.

00:34:39   Yeah. These communities exist right on the internet, right?

00:34:42   Like that is 100% the thing that happens.

00:34:44   And it may not have been a lot of people.

00:34:46   It may not have been for very long, but these,

00:34:48   I don't know if there can be bugs of this scale.

00:34:51   The only one person was able to find out, right?

00:34:54   Like, I don't believe that that's the way the internet works.

00:34:57   But the issue is here is it's not that like Apple screwed something up,

00:35:01   which meant that it went to Apple.

00:35:03   They screwed something up, which meant that any individual

00:35:06   could listen in to any individual's conversations.

00:35:09   Like you were able to open up very easily in very simple,

00:35:15   reproducible steps, a direct line of hearing to somebody else's world. That is absolutely

00:35:24   unforgivable. I'm very surprised and I hope that this is rectified that we've not seen anything

00:35:31   in the way of an apology from Apple on this one. I know that they have done stuff like this more

00:35:36   recently but like my only assumption is that they're waiting till they fix it and maybe do

00:35:42   some due diligence so they can try and try and explain what happened but like this is something

00:35:46   that they must address you they cannot leave this it was like i if i remember correctly with the

00:35:52   high sierra uh admin bug they did actually issue an an apology right like they did apologize

00:36:00   and i haven't and mean and you guys can correct me if i'm wrong but all i've seen is a statement

00:36:05   anything coming from apple right now in regards to statements on this is we are working on fixing

00:36:09   this. I think so. And that's actually how it worked with the root deal. So this was with,

00:36:15   yeah, this was in November 2017. And so in High Sierra, basically, you could unlock things by

00:36:22   just entering username, root and no password. And that was that's really that's awful. It's not the

00:36:30   privacy invasion thing we're talking about now necessarily. But these two things have to be in

00:36:36   in the physical space of somebody's computer, right?

00:36:38   Which adds a different level.

00:36:40   - I don't remember if you could do it remotely or not.

00:36:41   But the thing that I come back to with this

00:36:46   is both the root thing and this,

00:36:48   you would think, I think, would be relatively simple

00:36:53   to find if your QA process worked.

00:36:57   It just would, right?

00:36:58   Like, how do we all, I mean, if you get a phone call

00:37:01   and you don't want it, you hit the sleep/wake button

00:37:03   to send it to voicemail, right?

00:37:04   Like you just hit the volume button down.

00:37:07   If that's triggering the camera,

00:37:09   like how did they not find that in QA testing?

00:37:13   I don't understand, but something seems

00:37:17   like fundamentally broken in Apple's process with this

00:37:22   to allow bugs like this out the door.

00:37:24   It's, you know, and the thing that really,

00:37:27   really grates me about this is they delayed

00:37:29   group FaceTime because it was buggy.

00:37:31   Remember, we tried it in the beta

00:37:33   And then your phone just exploded.

00:37:35   It didn't work.

00:37:36   And they said, "Hey, we're gonna hold it back.

00:37:38   "We're gonna make it work.

00:37:39   "We've used it since then.

00:37:40   "Three of us used it on a call last week."

00:37:42   It worked well.

00:37:44   But if you already delayed it 'cause you had QA issues

00:37:46   and then something like this comes out,

00:37:49   whatever QA process you have,

00:37:51   whatever QA team you have is not working.

00:37:56   They're not doing their job.

00:37:57   The process isn't doing what it's supposed to do.

00:38:00   - From the other end of the story,

00:38:02   how this bug was reported to Apple.

00:38:05   I find the entire process,

00:38:08   so there was an article on The Verge

00:38:10   that detailed the timeline of how this 14-year-old kid

00:38:15   discovered the bug and his mother,

00:38:17   who was a lawyer, I think, in Arizona,

00:38:20   they started contacting Apple and she, as a lawyer,

00:38:24   actually wrote a formal letter to Apple.

00:38:27   They got in touch with the email

00:38:28   that Apple advises people to use

00:38:30   for discovering security issues.

00:38:32   And yes, they wanted to participate

00:38:34   in the bug bounty program that Apple has

00:38:36   to reward people who discover important security issues.

00:38:40   But I've seen people make jokes about that.

00:38:42   And honestly, I think it's fine.

00:38:43   Every company has these programs

00:38:45   and people are allowed to take advantage of them.

00:38:48   The fact is that this person gets in touch with Apple

00:38:52   and sends a video and a letter.

00:38:57   There are details on how to reproduce this problem,

00:39:00   But still-- - They filed a radar.

00:39:02   - So first, this person is asked,

00:39:05   so a regular citizen with no developer expertise

00:39:09   is asked to sign up for a developer account

00:39:12   and file a radar.

00:39:13   So they actually do that.

00:39:15   They file a radar on the bug report website,

00:39:18   and the radar is marked as a duplicate, of course,

00:39:22   radar being radar.

00:39:23   And two to three days pass, and Apple does nothing,

00:39:27   and at this point, the person goes public

00:39:29   with the disclosure of the bug.

00:39:31   This is incredible to me.

00:39:34   I don't know what you guys think, but this is incredible.

00:39:35   - I had some like complicated feelings about this

00:39:39   as it was unfolding,

00:39:40   but by the time that we got all of the information out,

00:39:43   I agree with you that it is unbelievable.

00:39:45   Like, 'cause at first it was like,

00:39:46   there was just the email that was sent

00:39:49   to like Apple product security.

00:39:50   And my thought was like,

00:39:52   they must get so many of these every single day.

00:39:55   And it's people that are like, I found a bug.

00:39:58   My printer quit working.

00:39:59   Or it's just like, I found a bug.

00:40:02   Give me money.

00:40:03   Right?

00:40:04   Not, you know what I mean?

00:40:05   Like, I'm sure people find bugs in iOS every day and then try and get money out of it because

00:40:08   like whatever.

00:40:09   But it was once I had seen everything that ended up coming out via like, it was the reporting,

00:40:16   I think a lot by John Mayer of, I'm not sure where he was publishing this.

00:40:23   Right?

00:40:24   But like, it was, was that right?

00:40:26   Like there's a guy called John Mayer who seemed to be having a lot of conversations with people

00:40:30   about this.

00:40:31   Yes.

00:40:32   I think he's linked a lot, but I'm not sure where it was actually being published other

00:40:36   than on his Twitter account.

00:40:37   But his tweets have embedded it in there.

00:40:38   The Verge wrote an article linking to his tweets also.

00:40:40   Yeah, yeah.

00:40:41   So I mean like I'm not sure where, like how and where he got in touch with this.

00:40:45   Like I don't, I'm not familiar with the guy, but like he seemed to be doing a lot of the

00:40:50   initial reporting.

00:40:51   like as it was starting to unfold like I don't understand how something wasn't

00:40:57   done about this like at the point that it got to radar at the point that it was

00:41:01   then marked as a duplicate which means someone's looked at it like I don't

00:41:06   understand how something wasn't done more quickly it just seems so peculiar

00:41:13   to me like and I'm not gonna I'm not gonna attempt to say that like I

00:41:16   I understand how these things run, right?

00:41:20   Or like, for all we know they were working on it and just didn't want to publish anything

00:41:24   about it because they didn't want to like get it around.

00:41:26   Like, I don't know.

00:41:27   I don't know.

00:41:28   But what I do know is that this whole process appears from the outside to be fundamentally

00:41:34   flawed.

00:41:35   Yeah.

00:41:36   And also, something that I've seen on Twitter a lot is a common type of comment on the story

00:41:43   of, well, there are people working at Apple and I sympathize with people because people

00:41:50   can screw things up sometimes. And that to me is just a pretty way to defend Apple in

00:41:59   the sense that yes, even doctors who have incredibly complex surgeries are people and

00:42:06   then can screw it up sometimes. But the purpose of being a professional is to have responsibility

00:42:14   and to be held accountable for your work. And to say, "Oh, well, people screw it up

00:42:20   sometimes." Would you say that to a doctor who was supposed to save your life, but he

00:42:24   didn't? Would you say that to the rocket scientist that was supposed to fly a rocket, but she

00:42:28   screwed it up and the rocket exploded? Would you share that type of comment? Or, "Well,

00:42:34   I understand it's people and people screw... like that doesn't mean anything. That comment

00:42:39   does nothing to this discussion. So it's a screw up and hopefully it's a lesson that

00:42:46   Apple can learn from.

00:42:48   With things like this, if you are a company that purports themselves to be better than

00:42:54   everybody else, you open yourself up to more scrutiny. Like if what you are saying is,

00:43:00   If you're like one of your core tenants for your brand is privacy and security and you

00:43:05   have a privacy and security flaw, it's worse for you because you've already told me that

00:43:11   you are going to be better at this than everybody else.

00:43:14   You have told me that by buying your product, I am more secure.

00:43:19   So when you have a security issue, it's worse for you than it is for the other people because

00:43:24   you've told me they're not telling me, right?

00:43:27   Like Company X is not saying to me like buy this phone because then you're secure.

00:43:33   You told me that as a selling point of your product.

00:43:36   So when you have a problem it is worse.

00:43:40   It's like when I promised people I was going to talk about the iPad Pro and then I didn't.

00:43:44   Exactly and then everyone's like well you we made an agreement here where you were going

00:43:48   to tell me about the iPad Pro but you didn't do it and you let everybody down.

00:43:52   But then you ended up living up to it and you issued your apology.

00:43:55   Yeah, I did.

00:43:58   This episode of Connected is brought to you by Drafts, where text starts.

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00:44:29   the dictation of drafts is so good. And you can draft messages or social media posts right there.

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00:44:38   And drafts has a super configurable editing environment, making it a friendly,

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00:45:08   hear from Federico Vatici. Yes, so I love drafts, but not for the reason that the tagline explains,

00:45:20   The tagline is "Where Text Starts". I love Drafts because it can do that and

00:45:26   it's an excellent app to do that. But Drafts for me is the dream of the

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00:45:57   actions are loaded for each workspace. You can use tags to organize your

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00:46:17   And this was-- it saved me so much time last summer

00:46:22   when I was working on my iOS 12 review.

00:46:25   The ability to create actions that

00:46:28   use JavaScript to sort of create little programs that

00:46:31   run inside of drafts.

00:46:34   I was able to create a little script that

00:46:36   scanned my entire review for certain placeholders.

00:46:40   And those placeholders became reminders.

00:46:42   And those reminders in the actual Apple Reminders app

00:46:45   add a link in their notes field.

00:46:47   And when I tapped the link, I was taken back to drafts

00:46:50   to the exact point of the document

00:46:52   where the placeholder was included.

00:46:54   - Nice.

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00:46:56   Yeah, it's incredible what you can do.

00:46:57   There's all kinds of things you can experiment with.

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00:47:03   Everybody's just super nice and super into like the idea

00:47:06   of letting you understand drafts

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00:47:16   and the customization to the community.

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00:47:20   And it's, you know, drafts,

00:47:22   whenever I need to do something with text

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00:47:41   So get it sorted now, go to get drafts.com.

00:47:45   Our thanks to draft for their support of this show

00:47:47   and relay FM.

00:47:49   TechCrunch on Tuesday reported that Facebook,

00:47:54   Josh Constantine at TechCrunch,

00:47:59   Facebook was secretly paying people to install

00:48:04   what they call Facebook research VPN.

00:48:06   So we gotta back up a second.

00:48:08   We remember last year, Apple removed Facebook's Onavo.

00:48:17   How do we want to say this?

00:48:18   I say Onavo, but I don't know.

00:48:20   I'm going to go with that.

00:48:21   Onavo.

00:48:22   Onavo.

00:48:24   Sounds Italian enough.

00:48:25   Oh, no.

00:48:26   Ovo.

00:48:27   Voe.

00:48:29   This was a VPN by Facebook.

00:48:33   And they were using it-- because if you have a VPN,

00:48:35   the VPN provider, if they're so inclined,

00:48:38   they could potentially see what you're doing.

00:48:40   And Apple said, you can't do that.

00:48:42   And they removed it.

00:48:43   It was removed in August.

00:48:45   Facebook decided that that wasn't acceptable.

00:48:48   And they were allowing people to sideload it

00:48:52   through what is called a Enterprise Certificate, Enterprise

00:48:57   Developer Program Certificate.

00:48:58   So this is a tool that you can use

00:49:00   if you're a developer to run internal apps on devices.

00:49:06   So for instance, say that Federico was writing a Espresso tutorial app for the iPhone and

00:49:13   iPad and he wanted us to test it.

00:49:16   Instead of dealing with TestFlight, you could, if you were an enterprise developer, which

00:49:20   obviously you would be, you can distribute this so there's a profile that the user downloads

00:49:25   on their phone and that profile allows them to install this application.

00:49:30   And then from there, it's just an app running on the phone.

00:49:32   So it's a way to get around Apple's systems.

00:49:36   And it is designed for people who are testing apps at scale to say, "Hey, we have a thousand

00:49:42   employees.

00:49:43   Let's let them all use this new build of whatever and see if they find any bugs."

00:49:47   Maybe Apple should have done this with a group of FaceTime.

00:49:49   But you can see how this is used, right?

00:49:53   So it's built with the intention for testing purposes.

00:49:58   A lot of big companies, like it's come out with Facebook, use it for all sorts of internal

00:50:01   things.

00:50:02   We've all been to their campus. It's like Disneyland. You can order burrito on your on your burrito app Facebook burrito app

00:50:08   And it shows up at your office or whatever

00:50:10   Where this where they broke the rules is that they were using this with members of the public to install this application and

00:50:19   This application already been banned from Apple from the App Store, but they still wanted people to use it

00:50:25   So this Facebook research app was part of a larger project called project Atlas

00:50:32   There's a pretty good code name for taking everyone's data.

00:50:36   Hats off to you for picking a good code name, Facebook.

00:50:39   This was a VPN to track and look at data plan usage, but part of the overall project was

00:50:48   like, "Hey, could you maybe upload what you've ordered from Amazon?"

00:50:55   And basically Facebook was just using this program,

00:50:59   this VP in Apple was part of the program,

00:51:01   to gather ungodly amounts of data on these users.

00:51:05   And some of these users were given $20 a month in gift cards

00:51:10   so I guess that's the price of privacy for some people.

00:51:14   But clearly bad.

00:51:15   So this comes out in TechCrunch and it's safe to say

00:51:19   at least our corner of the internet

00:51:20   just burned to the ground, right?

00:51:22   People are furious and people are calling on Apple

00:51:25   to respond to this.

00:51:27   And there are people, and I will count myself in this group,

00:51:30   that think Apple gives big companies

00:51:33   more leniency than small companies.

00:51:35   If this were an indie developer,

00:51:37   they would be banned from the App Store forever.

00:51:40   No questions asked, you are done.

00:51:44   Instead, what Apple has done here

00:51:45   is they have revoked this certificate,

00:51:48   which not only breaks this application,

00:51:51   but breaks all of Facebook's internal applications.

00:51:54   reporting. There was a actually while we have been recording the show, Facebook had a statement

00:52:00   to recode basically saying all of our internal apps are broken. We're trying to negotiate with

00:52:04   Apple to get this turned back on. So that's the story. That's kind of where we are today. We're

00:52:09   recording this. This could be different in a matter of hours. But while they've been recording, it's

00:52:15   also broken that Google has sort of a similar project running using their enterprise certificate.

00:52:22   So Facebook is not the only one to break this rule.

00:52:25   Google seems to be doing it too.

00:52:26   This, I mean, that story got published like as I'm speaking right now, seven

00:52:30   minutes ago.

00:52:31   So that is a very new part of this.

00:52:32   So I think I feel like that's the news, but I want to see how, what you guys

00:52:37   think of it.

00:52:38   What do you think of Apple's response to it?

00:52:39   And like, what is the way forward for these two, now three companies to get

00:52:44   along?

00:52:45   I think ultimately Apple has done the best thing that they could, given the

00:52:50   situation that they had at hand. You know, it would be really great if they found a way

00:52:56   to maybe punish Facebook more, but you've got to assume that they're trying to not then

00:53:08   upset all of Apple's own users, right?

00:53:12   So what does, let's be specific, what does punish Facebook more mean? Does it mean pulling

00:53:16   Facebook, WhatsApp, and Instagram from the App Store?

00:53:18   Sure. I mean, like that's the that's you know, that's what they would do to a smaller developer

00:53:23   in a situation like this, right? Like they would be like, you're done now. Goodbye.

00:53:27   But like the problem is in that situation, it hurts more people than just Facebook. And I think

00:53:32   that's the line you have to walk, right? There are a lot of things that Apple can also do behind the

00:53:38   scenes, I guess, to make things more difficult for Facebook, right? Like promotion and all that kind

00:53:44   kind of stuff like that's all going to be I guess we're going to go back to the drawing

00:53:48   board for a lot of those types of things right like and like PR for new app launches and

00:53:54   stuff like that. They have done I think what they have done is very interesting in that

00:54:05   they have made things exceedingly difficult for Facebook as a company right like what

00:54:12   have done is make things very very complicated and very very uncomfortable for Facebook and

00:54:18   its employees without harming the users of the apps. And like for good or bad, right

00:54:24   so here's the thing, if they did this I would be super mad that I wouldn't be able to use

00:54:29   Instagram. I would be, right? Me. I want to use Instagram. And if they were like "Nope,

00:54:34   Facebook, you're gone and all your apps are gone." I would be upset about that, right?

00:54:38   Like let's be, I want to be real about this.

00:54:40   be a huge blow to their entire ecosystem.

00:54:42   Yes, and like, so they've got to kind of like, weigh up what they can weigh up, is my opinion.

00:54:49   20 minutes ago, Facebook confirmed to Bloomberg that all of its, all of its employee-only

00:54:56   internal apps are offline.

00:54:58   They are trying to negotiate with Apple right now.

00:55:03   So my thoughts on this, I have said this before, I want to go on the record with this.

00:55:08   I don't care if you disagree with me, you don't need to tell me. My personal belief

00:55:13   is that Facebook is ruining modern society. It is the prime cause of the... it's called

00:55:19   the Dunning-Kruger effect, you can Google it and see what it's all about. It is ruining

00:55:24   all kinds of people and their thoughts and their self-esteem and love for an idea of

00:55:32   privacy. So I wish that Apple did more. I realize how unrealistic that is to

00:55:39   think that Apple is suddenly gonna pull Facebook from the App Store or Instagram

00:55:44   or WhatsApp or Messenger. This feels like the right approach of going behind the

00:55:50   scenes to hurt them without actually causing trouble to the users. The users

00:55:55   have done nothing wrong here. People like my mom or my girlfriend or Myke and I or

00:56:00   Steven, we've done nothing wrong, we didn't participate in this program, and to remove

00:56:07   Facebook or Instagram or WhatsApp from the App Store would be unrealistic, would be maybe

00:56:12   too much right now, but to hurt Facebook in this way from a technical standpoint is the

00:56:18   right approach.

00:56:20   Now, is Apple going to negotiate with Facebook?

00:56:23   Is an apology going to be enough?

00:56:27   things gonna go back to normal by tomorrow? Maybe, because ultimately these

00:56:32   are corporations, they can work behind the scenes, they can

00:56:36   have a handshake and everything is gonna be fine. So it's possible

00:56:43   that things will be back to normal in a couple days time. I think overall,

00:56:49   all, as you know, beyond the App Store, beyond Apple, beyond the details of this latest screw-up

00:56:57   from Facebook. We are, I am optimistic that we are on a path to get rid of Facebook from

00:57:05   our lives. It's going to take years, but I think people are just fed up. It's one story

00:57:09   after the other, and it's too much.

00:57:13   It's unbelievable. I don't even think it's desensitising. I think a lot of people can

00:57:20   make the argument that like, "Oh, there's so many things, it's desensitising." But it's

00:57:24   so many different things.

00:57:27   It's just unbelievable.

00:57:28   So I would say that by and large, when I've heard you say this kind of stuff in the past

00:57:33   and like many of our friends, I've kind of been a bit like, "Eh, I don't know." But I

00:57:39   I think over the last couple of weeks, especially, I've really started to turn a corner on what

00:57:45   I think about Facebook as a company.

00:57:49   I feel like I've had enough personally too.

00:57:52   I can really see how terrible they are.

00:57:57   I feel like I'm becoming very aware of it.

00:58:02   It's unbelievable.

00:58:07   It is unbelievable that there are people consciously making these decisions about what they want

00:58:13   to do with the data of their users and the way they want to treat them.

00:58:17   So are you going to remove your account?

00:58:18   Probably.

00:58:19   I mean, I don't even use Facebook.

00:58:20   I mean, Facebook proper, right?

00:58:24   Facebook prime.

00:58:25   I don't use it.

00:58:26   And I haven't used it for years.

00:58:28   My account just sits there and it's for like dealing with events that my family invite

00:58:33   me to effectively.

00:58:34   Like that's I don't I don't feed Facebook with anything and I don't access it

00:58:38   but I am an Instagram user and I am a whatsapp user and

00:58:41   I have no desire to remove those services from my life. Like I'm being honest

00:58:47   All right, like this goes back to the thing of like well, I

00:58:51   Don't personally I don't think that those two decisions have to be the same of like I don't like this company

00:58:59   I don't like what it's doing

00:59:01   Then point two is then do I harm my own life because of it?

00:59:05   Because Instagram brings me happiness in my life and whatsapp is required for me to be able to communicate with some of my family members

00:59:12   So like what am I gonna do?

00:59:15   Like what is what is my what is my path here?

00:59:18   Like do I feel like I need to make a personal stand for the sake of everybody? No

00:59:23   I don't think I need to do that

00:59:25   I can tell you what I think about it right now and you can decide to make your own point on it

00:59:28   I don't think that Myke Hurley leaving Facebook is going to really affect the needle that much.

00:59:33   No.

00:59:33   But so, like, so yeah, I probably will get rid of my Facebook account when I get around to bothering to do it.

00:59:39   But I'm not, but the point is I'm not gonna remove my Instagram account,

00:59:44   and I'm not gonna remove my WhatsApp account. Like, I'm not gonna do those things.

00:59:49   The...

00:59:50   What I believe should happen is that

00:59:52   the entire board of Facebook should be replaced and Facebook itself should be heavily

00:59:58   regulated in every country where it operates. Because it's not just like, it is kind of

01:00:06   generic to say Facebook is running society. I do believe that by indulging in the sweet

01:00:13   lie that is that in democracy, every opinion counts, no matter how, no matter the degree

01:00:19   of truth that each opinion has. Facebook has found the system to monetize, spreading lies

01:00:26   and alternative facts, some people will call them, and turning the minds of teenagers and

01:00:36   people over six years old, all kinds of people, to believe that certain things that are objectively

01:00:43   not true are actually true, but the system doesn't want to tell you and therefore Facebook

01:00:48   is the truth because only Facebook can show you those facts, from vaccines to global warming

01:00:54   to all kinds of modern truth accepted by people of average intelligence. Facebook has found

01:01:02   the system to monetize the spreading of these lies and for this reason alone it should be

01:01:07   heavily regulated because it's a system largely designed to deceive people for their own gain.

01:01:15   I cannot believe that. There's rumors of, for example, the Italian government looking

01:01:20   to tighten the screws on Facebook, for example, and Google for how they present news and quote

01:01:26   unquote news. I honestly believe that 2019, I honestly hope that 2019 is the year that

01:01:32   this happens because it's, this is just too much. This is too much.

01:01:36   I personally, the belief that in general, like large companies, large, large companies

01:01:42   don't necessarily have a requirement for heavy regulation, but I feel like it gets to a

01:01:50   certain point where you're not allowed to continue. And I feel like Facebook has passed

01:01:56   that point now, where I don't necessarily believe that just because a company is large

01:02:01   that it has then walked itself into requirement of heavy regulation from the world's governments.

01:02:08   But you only are allowed so many mess ups. And this is not even mistakes. Mistakes is

01:02:17   one thing, right? Like this thing that Apple has found themselves in, right? Like what

01:02:24   most likely happened is they just didn't test it well enough. But a lot of this Facebook

01:02:28   stuff including especially this VPN project that they've been going on was like they weren't

01:02:35   trying to do anything other than get data from people that they could use in different

01:02:38   ways, right?

01:02:39   It was an active decision to build this.

01:02:41   Yes. So like that is when you start to lose your ability to run yourself is when you can't be trusted.

01:02:49   And they can't be trusted at this point. So like, yeah, I think that they should have to answer to governments, which they currently are choosing not to.

01:02:58   Like Facebook are doing absolutely everything they can to ignore the government in my country.

01:03:04   Like, the UK government has requested the presence of Mark Zuckerberg on multiple occasions

01:03:11   now, and he will not come.

01:03:14   They keep sending other people.

01:03:15   And I think that that is honestly ridiculous, right?

01:03:20   That the government of a country in which you operate in requires your CEO to come and

01:03:24   talk to them about the things that his company has been doing, and he just decides not to

01:03:28   show up?

01:03:30   I think that nothing exemplifies the way that this man thinks about the world than something

01:03:37   like that.

01:03:38   Tim Cynova Yeah, you know, it's so complicated.

01:03:43   Sitting here, you know, hearing y'all talk about it.

01:03:46   So I left Facebook years ago and actually just spoke to y'all last week about it,

01:03:51   how I had a situation catching up with some old friends who I hadn't seen in years and

01:03:55   like just having the realization like I don't know what's going on in everyone's life

01:04:00   because in my social circle, at least Facebook is still sort of the currency.

01:04:03   You know, it's where people share things.

01:04:06   And I expressed to y'all like sort of like this feeling of, you know,

01:04:10   I kind of don't know what's going on with some people because I'm not there.

01:04:13   And maybe I should revisit that.

01:04:15   I can tell you this has cured me of that feeling and 100%.

01:04:19   But I do use WhatsApp and I use Instagram and like you, Myke,

01:04:24   WhatsApp is critical for communicating with some people in my life.

01:04:27   and Instagram is something that I just enjoy.

01:04:32   I don't know what it would take for me to leave those.

01:04:35   The rumor of them combining the messaging may be enough, honestly.

01:04:40   But clearly, I think anyone could look at this with any sense and realize that Facebook,

01:04:47   the way that it is structured and the way that it operates, cannot continue.

01:04:52   And Zuckerberg is basically invincible.

01:04:55   But something you said that really I thought about for a second was we cover this on download

01:05:02   a lot, but Facebook and Google and Twitter, these CEOs have all spent time in front of

01:05:07   Congress here in the United States.

01:05:08   And every single time the questions are laughable, right?

01:05:13   Like a congressman asked Mark Zuckerberg how Facebook makes money.

01:05:17   And his answer was, "Sir, we run ads."

01:05:20   Until we have leaders in all three of our countries and beyond who understand this stuff

01:05:27   and who can talk about it intelligently, it's never going to change.

01:05:30   I don't have the hope that you have Federico that it's going to fade, because who can

01:05:34   do it?

01:05:35   Governments can do it, but governments don't understand it.

01:05:38   That's something that I want to consider more and more moving forward.

01:05:42   How do we as societies arm ourselves better to deal with these sorts of companies?

01:05:50   My instant reaction to this is not a good one, which is just like, "God, I don't

01:05:56   think we can."

01:05:57   I just don't think it's possible.

01:06:01   Yeah.

01:06:02   I mean, feeling defeated in theā€”like, who has the power to bring Facebook on?

01:06:07   Only governments.

01:06:08   That's it, right?

01:06:10   No one else can do it.

01:06:12   Maybe it's just something that we've got to learn to live with.

01:06:15   Some people smoke, for example, and it's just something that exists.

01:06:20   Some people have Facebook accounts. Some people use Facebook and believe what's on Facebook.

01:06:23   What if you, like in the future, you go to a bar and like there's a sign, it's like,

01:06:28   you cannot use Facebook in here. You have to go outside in the cold. You know, like

01:06:31   that is an excellent idea for a bar. Actually, I would, I would go to that bar. You want

01:06:35   to invest? You want to invest? Let's do it. We're going to open, we're going to open a

01:06:38   bar. What's the name? What's the name? Oh man. Um, I don't know. IRL. IRL. That'll be

01:06:46   the code. That's the code name. It's the project code name, at least.

01:06:48   OK, OK.

01:06:50   Huh? Is that it?

01:06:51   I don't want to talk about this anymore.

01:06:52   This is all depressing and upsetting.

01:06:54   So depressing is so depressing.

01:06:56   Like I'm I'm genuinely sorry that we have had to have this conversation

01:07:01   because the downfall of society is not a fun topic.

01:07:03   Turns out, no, like because I would just say like as somebody

01:07:07   who enjoys listening to podcasts, we have presented to you an episode

01:07:10   which you cannot enjoy.

01:07:12   So I apologize for that because that's not the type of content

01:07:15   that I like to make, but I feel like we had to talk about it.

01:07:19   We I feel like we would have it would have would have been a disservice

01:07:24   to our listeners if we would not address these topics today.

01:07:26   And we don't we purposefully make a habit of of trying to stay away from stuff

01:07:31   where we were really all we're going to do is just be upset and mad for like an hour.

01:07:35   But I feel like that there was there was no way of avoiding these two things today,

01:07:40   because it's companies that have done things that are that need

01:07:45   that they need to beg for our forgiveness.

01:07:49   And I don't know if everyone's even going to bother doing it, but we'll find out, I

01:07:54   guess.

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01:09:50   That's a nice little website you've got going on over there.

01:09:53   Thanks!

01:09:54   It's got my cool neon picture for this year on there.

01:09:56   Yeah.

01:09:57   It's fun.

01:09:58   Yeah.

01:09:59   It would be a shame if something were to happen to it.

01:10:01   (laughing)

01:10:03   Well, Squarespace has that covered.

01:10:04   I'm not worried about you de-dawsoning me.

01:10:06   (laughing)

01:10:08   Okay, so I wanna talk about the iPhone XR a little bit.

01:10:14   We'll end with something colorful and fun.

01:10:16   So for a while now, Apple has been saying

01:10:19   that the iPhone XR is the best selling iPhone

01:10:23   of this generation.

01:10:24   So there was an interview on CNET a while back about it

01:10:27   and in their quarterly results call this week,

01:10:30   It was mentioned again that the order of sale is 10R,

01:10:34   10S Max, and then the 10S bringing up the lead

01:10:36   for new phones, right?

01:10:37   So I don't know where the eight and seven, et cetera,

01:10:40   mix into that.

01:10:41   But most people who do what we do,

01:10:45   podcasts and rival technology for a living,

01:10:47   gravitate towards, usually towards the high end.

01:10:49   I think most listeners of this show,

01:10:51   a large portion of them at least,

01:10:52   gravitate towards the high end.

01:10:54   And this year that was the 10S Max.

01:10:56   That's what all three of us bought.

01:10:57   So a lot of our friends bought,

01:10:58   I love our friends with a 10S.

01:11:00   But it's been sort of rolling around in my head

01:11:02   that the 10R, if it's the most popular phone,

01:11:06   like I feel like it's worth us understanding why that is.

01:11:10   And really examining the phone as not just something

01:11:14   on the website or something we saw on the store,

01:11:16   something we lived with for a while.

01:11:17   So last week I embarked on a little experiment,

01:11:22   as I want to do sometimes.

01:11:24   And I picked up a blue 10R.

01:11:27   and I put my SIM card in it, moved my stuff to it,

01:11:29   'cause I wanted to understand what this phone offers

01:11:32   and how it compares to Apple's other products this year,

01:11:36   because the XR is substantially less money,

01:11:39   $250 less than the XS and a whopping $350 less

01:11:44   than the XS Max, and I wanted to know

01:11:48   what that money bought you and if that money was worth it.

01:11:52   So I would love to talk about that,

01:11:55   I'd love to answer any questions you all have about it.

01:11:58   I will defend that blue is the best color choice

01:12:00   if I need to, so what do you guys want to talk about this?

01:12:03   - Don't agree with that.

01:12:04   I think coral is clearly the best choice.

01:12:08   But I think one of the best things about the XR

01:12:10   is that you have that choice.

01:12:12   Well, I think my first question to you is

01:12:16   where is this XR now?

01:12:18   - It's right here on my desk, next to my XS Max,

01:12:22   which is off.

01:12:23   lot of iPhones in here. So which are you still using? Yes. I saw a picture your wife posted on

01:12:31   Instagram of you using it and I was and I thought I locked that one away in my brain. He's still

01:12:36   using it. Yeah, I've got till Monday before the return policy is up. So this is a purchase a thing

01:12:43   as a review unit and then return it or not return it. Which I know is like, like, I know, like,

01:12:49   we took some flack for this on Twitter. Like, I know that's ridiculous. Like, I know that I'm

01:12:52   I'm privileged to be able to do this.

01:12:54   I'm privileged that my business can afford it,

01:12:55   and it's a business, like, I understand all of that.

01:12:57   I understand most people can't do this.

01:12:59   But I was able to, and so I really wanted to compare them,

01:13:02   because most people are just gonna buy a single phone,

01:13:04   not even every year like we do.

01:13:07   And so I felt like I had the opportunity to compare them,

01:13:11   like in a direct way, like the XR versus the XS Max.

01:13:15   Using the iPhone X last year,

01:13:16   I can sort of assume some things about the XS

01:13:20   that I think are accurate still.

01:13:21   So I am still using it, my SIM card is still in it.

01:13:24   I have until Monday to decide what to do.

01:13:27   - And where are you leaning on it?

01:13:28   - I'm leaning towards keeping it.

01:13:30   And I'm leaning towards keeping my SIM card in it.

01:13:33   Because I think that it is,

01:13:38   if this was the only iPhone this year,

01:13:40   it would be a great phone.

01:13:42   Like it is, we talk about the differences between it

01:13:45   and what I think about those differences,

01:13:47   but I think especially for the money,

01:13:49   and yes, it is too expensive.

01:13:51   I wish that it was $699 instead of $749,

01:13:55   which would have been the price of the iPhone 8.

01:13:57   The pricing right now is right in between

01:13:58   the 8 and the 8 Plus.

01:14:00   It's a little too expensive for what it is,

01:14:02   but it's a really enjoyable iPhone.

01:14:05   There's a lot that I really like about it,

01:14:07   and something that honestly surprised me

01:14:10   and maybe what pushes me over the edge,

01:14:13   and I know this is gonna be painful to say

01:14:15   because it's the two of you

01:14:17   and because Casey Lissa's listening,

01:14:19   I think the XS Max is too big for me.

01:14:21   I think that the XR is actually the biggest phone I want to carry.

01:14:26   I think it doesn't bother me because the XR is still bigger than the XS.

01:14:30   That's true.

01:14:31   Still in the big phone club.

01:14:32   It's just not the biggest phone club.

01:14:33   The medium phone club.

01:14:34   Which is the best phone club, but you would be in a medium phone club with the smallest

01:14:40   one being the worst club to be in.

01:14:44   Who wants to be in a small club?

01:14:46   Nobody does.

01:14:47   I don't know.

01:14:48   Big clubs only.

01:14:49   the XR size, I think the Max is a little too big for me. And I didn't know that, it's one

01:14:54   of those things like you can't know that until you go back and like I unboxed the XR and

01:14:58   started using it, it's like oh, oh boy. Yeah, it is, it's the sweet spot. Yeah, it's the

01:15:05   Goldilocks, I call it the Goldilocks phone in my review, like it is the in-betweeny phone.

01:15:09   What is Goldilocks? Uh, Goldilocks and the three bears, do you know this? Nope. Goldilocks

01:15:15   I mean she's lost in the forest and she goes into a house.

01:15:18   So this is a story.

01:15:19   This is a story.

01:15:20   It's like a fairy tale.

01:15:22   Fable?

01:15:23   What is porridge?

01:15:24   I don't know which one it would be.

01:15:25   It's like oatmeal, but worse.

01:15:26   Oh gosh.

01:15:27   Yes.

01:15:28   What's oatmeal?

01:15:29   Okay, you have to remember I don't share your traditions of the Anglo-Saxon world.

01:15:35   Right, the thing is though Federico, you throw these things in every now and then.

01:15:40   Of what?

01:15:41   The amount of them that like, "Oh I don't get this" or like "I don't have that here".

01:15:44   I don't know what Goldilocks is. Hang on, I believe you. But the thing is, it's very

01:15:49   easy to forget because there are so many that you do know. Right? Like Goldilocks and the

01:15:55   idea of Goldilocks has been used in so many cartoons and TV shows that like you are probably

01:16:01   more aware of it than you would know that you are. It's a word I've seen before. I just

01:16:06   never bothered to search. I would bet that you have seen some cartoon or TV show that

01:16:13   has referenced this directly, that like if I was to sit down and really explain it to

01:16:18   you, we could find a common ground, but there's like no point.

01:16:20   I have googled Goldilocks and porridge. Porridge looks horrible. Do people eat this? This is,

01:16:28   it's like a poor man's risotto. What is this? Oh my God.

01:16:32   It's breakfast risotto is what it is. Nope. Close.

01:16:35   It's a breakfast food. Common w. Goldilocks. Okay. I will read Goldilocks

01:16:40   and the three bears thank you sorry it's a star wars story

01:16:48   anyway

01:16:50   i don't know where we're going so the size the size is really nice i really

01:16:54   like the size uh i do want to talk about the screen

01:16:57   because that's the screen and the camera are the biggest

01:16:59   differences so yes having used an oled phone for a year

01:17:04   over a year going back to an lcd it's a little bit

01:17:08   bit of a bummer like the colors aren't as nice I mean oh that is just a nicer

01:17:11   technology and yes the bezels are thicker than on the XS and XS Max that's

01:17:18   gonna bother some people but we have to remember who the XR is for and who I

01:17:23   think it's for is people upgrading from an iPhone 6, 6s or 7 and if you want a

01:17:30   modern iPhone with face ID and no home button the XR clearly according to the

01:17:36   numbers is the most popular option for those sorts of consumers and those

01:17:40   sorts of consumers it has basically no bezel compared to what they had and the

01:17:44   screen is just more of what they had before so it is the same pixel

01:17:50   density as the iPhone you know six seven eight you know that that same density

01:17:56   we've had since the retina iPhone first appeared it is not the higher density

01:18:00   that we've seen on the plus phones and then on the iPhone 10 and 10s phones but

01:18:06   But if you have an iPhone 7 in your pocket now and you like that LCD, you will like the

01:18:11   LCD on the iPhone XR because it is the same screen, there is just more of it.

01:18:15   It just flows into the corners like it does on the OLED display.

01:18:19   So yes, coming from an iPhone X, it's a little bit of a bummer, but 99.9% of people aren't

01:18:28   doing that.

01:18:29   It's just people like me who have time on their hands to fiddle with these things.

01:18:35   The lack of 3D touch is really interesting.

01:18:38   So the iPhone XR ships with haptic touch,

01:18:42   which is more or less long press,

01:18:45   and you hold there for a second,

01:18:46   and you get a haptic feedback, and then the thing happens.

01:18:48   So this is built into control center,

01:18:50   and into the lock screen.

01:18:51   So you can do the flashlight and the camera.

01:18:54   It's slightly slower than 3D touch,

01:18:56   and you do lose things like the app screen,

01:18:59   or the app home screen shortcut thing.

01:19:01   What is that called, Federico?

01:19:02   That's a name, right?

01:19:03   the 3D touch on the app icon. Quick actions? Quick actions on the home screen.

01:19:08   You don't have those. For me, my personal experience, all I can speak to, I don't

01:19:13   miss those. Like I never really used them and so not having them on the XR is not

01:19:18   a huge loss. Now if that's really important to your workflow, you're gonna

01:19:22   have a sad time. What's interesting about getting rid of that though is the

01:19:26   confusion between 3D touch and long press is gone. So I think we've all had

01:19:30   people like how do you move screen apps on your screen where you put your thumb down

01:19:34   they wiggle around and you move on oh I press too hard and now I have this menu and now

01:19:38   I didn't press hard enough like all that's gone it's just it's just simpler so that for

01:19:45   me at least is not a big deal I do miss that's my deal breaker 3d touch is my deal breaker

01:19:52   with the iPhone XR you really like it I use it a lot and the haptic touch is not good

01:19:59   enough in some of my key areas. One is like notification previews and initially it didn't

01:20:05   have them but then when they added them it's it's weird. They've done a bad job of it because

01:20:12   for some reason they haven't implemented it the same way they've done it on the iPad which

01:20:16   doesn't make any sense to me. So on the iPhone with 3D Touch and on the iPad you know you

01:20:22   just press down and it opens up and then you can look at it and then you could like without

01:20:26   even lifting your finger off the screen, you could just swipe down, head over like a button

01:20:31   and then you could let go and it activates the button for example, right? Like it's one

01:20:35   smooth action. But on the XR you have to take your finger or thumb off the screen for the

01:20:42   notification content to be presented to you in the pop action. And I don't know why they

01:20:48   did this, it seems very strange to me and I think that that kind of breaks it for me.

01:20:54   breaks my interaction method it makes it less nice to use and I'd use just general peak

01:20:59   and pop throughout the iPhone that I miss a lot and so I would I would I did miss this

01:21:07   when I was testing a 10R and I it is a regression if you are a user of that technology it is

01:21:16   and that's that's the thing for me that I miss the most in the realm of 3D touch what

01:21:20   What I would like to see Apple do is build Haptic Touch to replace everything with 3D

01:21:26   Touch and then bring it to the iPad.

01:21:27   So like the iPhone, whatever model you get, and the iPad all work the same way in this

01:21:33   regard.

01:21:34   The iPad is not going to get 3D Touch, I don't think.

01:21:37   The XR, you know, there's a rumor that the XR2, for lack of a better name, could be getting

01:21:41   an OLED display, which maybe brings 3D Touch back, in which case Haptic Touch is like a

01:21:45   weird side story to this phone.

01:21:48   But if it's the future, if they're gonna get rid of 3D touch, like it has been rumored

01:21:51   for a long time, they need to make this work all the same everywhere.

01:21:55   And right now it's just pretty messy.

01:21:58   So again, something to consider that if these are features that you want, then like is the

01:22:04   $250 worth it or are you just gonna stay on your old phone for another year and see what

01:22:08   happens?

01:22:09   Which is probably what most people are gonna do looking at Apple sales numbers.

01:22:11   The other big thing, and is a bigger thing for me, is the camera.

01:22:16   So the rear shooter is a single lens camera on the back.

01:22:20   It is the same wide angle lens, it's on the XS.

01:22:23   Those pictures, the wide angle pictures

01:22:24   between my XS Max and XR are effectively identical.

01:22:28   I cannot tell the difference.

01:22:30   But it lacks the zoom lens, which I used,

01:22:34   turns out, I didn't kind of realize it,

01:22:36   but actually a fair amount.

01:22:37   Now I don't shoot portrait photos on my phone, ever.

01:22:41   I was looking at my iCloud photo library,

01:22:44   I have like six portrait images in there.

01:22:47   I have 42,000 pictures.

01:22:48   But if you use portrait mode, the XR can do it.

01:22:54   It does it in software.

01:22:56   It's not as good, I think, to my eye as it is on the XS,

01:23:01   but it is there.

01:23:02   It's using the wide angle,

01:23:03   so the cropping is different.

01:23:05   You kinda have to walk up to somebody,

01:23:06   you have to zoom with your feet.

01:23:08   But I used the zoom lens in the past

01:23:10   just like taking regular pictures

01:23:14   Or if, for instance, I would need to take a picture

01:23:16   of like a business card, I could do like the 2x zoom

01:23:19   and punch in closer so the text was bigger

01:23:21   when I wanted to enter into contacts later.

01:23:23   That sort of stuff is a bummer.

01:23:26   And the zoom lens is, it might be the deal breaker for me.

01:23:31   I haven't made a decision what I'm gonna do here.

01:23:34   Like I'm not keeping both phones, I don't think.

01:23:35   I gotta make a decision.

01:23:37   I have a family member who's like in desperate need

01:23:39   of an iPhone so they may get whatever I don't keep.

01:23:42   but not having the zoom lens is, for me at least,

01:23:47   coming from the plus phones a step back.

01:23:50   Now again, if you were using an iPhone 6 6S7,

01:23:53   you weren't in the plus club.

01:23:55   This is a huge camera upgrade and the zoom lenses

01:23:57   wasn't gonna be for you anyway.

01:23:59   So it's all about putting this phone into context

01:24:02   and that's what I wanted to do with this review.

01:24:04   It's what I wanted to do with these two weeks

01:24:06   trying it on Apple's return policy of like,

01:24:10   trying to understand this phone,

01:24:11   not from the perspective of a XS buyer,

01:24:14   but from the perspective of somebody who would be upgrading.

01:24:16   And in that context,

01:24:21   the XR to me is a huge hit.

01:24:23   It's a great iPhone,

01:24:25   and one that I think people should be

01:24:28   probably even more excited about.

01:24:30   You know, it's a lot cheaper.

01:24:31   If you look at the monthly upgrade pricing,

01:24:34   it's 37, this is in the US for an unlocked phone,

01:24:39   64 gigabytes the 10r is 37 41 a month the tennis is

01:24:44   $49.91 a month and the tennis max is

01:24:47   $54.08 a month so if you're looking at $54 versus $37 over the course of a year or two years or

01:24:55   749

01:24:57   999 or 1099 like the 10 are is

01:25:00   Cheaper by a healthy amount and I at least think what I've walked away with this is I'm not sure

01:25:08   That $250 is worth it

01:25:10   It may if you want that phone and you can afford it. That's awesome

01:25:14   but if you're coming from an older phone and you don't want to spend a

01:25:17   Ridiculous thousand dollars on an iPhone. I don't think what you get for the 10r is

01:25:24   Like you're leaving a lot like what you're leaving on the table

01:25:29   I think is fine for the price and I think that they've positioned it well and

01:25:34   It's kind of guys. It's kind of won me over like I really like this phone and I think that that it has sort of gotten a

01:25:41   Gun not the attention. It deserves sort of in like the tech journalism sphere

01:25:47   And so at least in our corner of that I want to change that like this is a great phone for a lot of people

01:25:51   I feel like everyone's had really good things to say about it

01:25:55   But just nobody's decided to use it for their right like Joanna Stearns using it

01:25:59   She and John Gruber talked about that on the on a recent episode of the talk show

01:26:02   And I think she is probably the most prominent person who is using one.

01:26:07   People are using it, right?

01:26:08   But it's so easy to focus on the high end, right?

01:26:13   When the Mac Pro comes out, that's all I'm going to want to talk about for a month.

01:26:16   And you guys are going to have to stop me.

01:26:18   But when the Mac Mini comes out, we talk about it for a week.

01:26:21   People who are into this stuff want to talk about the most powerful, like the high end

01:26:24   stuff.

01:26:25   But the XNR has really been eye-opening to me how good it is.

01:26:31   I think the price is a touch high, but I think what you get for it, it's reasonable.

01:26:37   Well, but here's the thing though, right?

01:26:43   You are still somebody who wants to have the latest and greatest, and whilst the XR gives

01:26:50   you most of that this year, I would be surprised if it kept being the case.

01:26:57   gets all of the technology bar like a few small things.

01:27:01   So that's a really interesting question of what happens this year.

01:27:05   So I think there's a world that you just described where the XR stays on the A12 and the XS2

01:27:13   or 11 or whatever gets a new processor and the XR maybe drops in price but doesn't get

01:27:18   updated again.

01:27:19   It becomes effectively the new iPhone SE.

01:27:22   Remember the iPhone SE came out.

01:27:24   It had the 6s guts when the 6s was still on sale and then it languished until just a couple

01:27:29   of weeks ago when it finally went away.

01:27:31   That could be the fate of the XR.

01:27:33   It could be that this phone is the modern now, but Apple is going to let it wither on

01:27:37   the vine.

01:27:39   That would be sad and I think it would be a mistake if the new iPhones start at $1,000.

01:27:44   If the new iPhones, the iPhone 11 or whatever, the 2019 new iPhone, if that starts at $749,

01:27:51   good riddance XR.

01:27:52   Apple's fixed the price problem.

01:27:54   But in a world where the flagship starts at $1,000, I think Apple needs to keep something

01:28:01   in this price point updated.

01:28:03   And so I am hopeful that we do see a 10R2 or whatever it's going to be called, 11R,

01:28:07   whatever, that is updated and holds this price point with a new phone.

01:28:12   Because I think it would be a mistake for Apple, especially in light of their earnings,

01:28:18   for the cheapest new phone to be $1,000.

01:28:23   year we had the 10 at that price point but we had the 8 at $699 and the 8+ at $799.

01:28:30   So they've done this now for a couple of years so I expect that the 10R would be updated

01:28:34   and hold its price point unless they really blow things up and the flagships are cheaper

01:28:38   and then the need for this price point goes away because they have it covered elsewhere.

01:28:43   Yeah, I can totally understand why you would be into this, but I don't think you would

01:28:56   stick with this in the long term, like the multiple year term.

01:29:00   No, no, but I mean, I can't change who I am.

01:29:03   I have a vice of buying a new iPhone every year, but it is a phone that I'd be happy

01:29:08   to use for a year.

01:29:09   And if they say that next year, the iPhone 11 is $1,000 and it has three lenses and the

01:29:16   iPhone 10 R to 11 R whatever is 749 again, and as it adds the zoom lens, like I don't

01:29:25   know what I would do, like, because the zoom lens is the biggest thing for me.

01:29:30   And if they added that, like then what then like, we have to reevaluate is the money worth

01:29:35   to upgrade.

01:29:36   So like, it's all open ended at this point.

01:29:38   I can only speak of where we are today until these new iPhones come out in September.

01:29:42   But today, if you're looking to upgrade, I feel solidly that the XR is the right answer

01:29:48   for almost everybody.

01:29:50   Yeah, I would say that I by and large came away with that feeling with the caveat of

01:29:59   unless you're someone like me.

01:30:02   But you haven't come away with that.

01:30:04   I haven't.

01:30:05   might be sticking with it but Myke Hurley knew that he couldn't. And part

01:30:10   of that is because I do it for a living part of it is like I am sort of

01:30:14   interested in like what the experience would be for a year using the phone that

01:30:19   like most of the people I work with aren't using right like would the would

01:30:23   the things they've taken away to hit the price point bother me long term you know

01:30:28   in June July August would I still feel this way about this phone or like I

01:30:34   I could be it, I mean, and very well possibly could be,

01:30:36   like in the honeymoon phase, like it's great, it's fun,

01:30:39   I like the size a lot, but like would I change my mind

01:30:43   over time, and for that experiment alone, I may keep it.

01:30:47   Just to live with something that's not the high end

01:30:52   for the better part of a cycle, to like really understand

01:30:56   where this phone is, because it's an important,

01:30:59   in some ways I think it's the most important iPhone

01:31:01   Apple makes right now, and the most important one

01:31:03   sell and is two weeks a fair time to judge that as like a tech commentator I

01:31:08   don't know probably not but I made my mind up pretty quickly like I could see

01:31:14   why it was great but I could also just tell that this isn't stuff for you it's

01:31:18   just it's not the thing I want like and I said this in the review like what I

01:31:23   probably like what I probably should do like the middle ground for me is next

01:31:27   year don't do the max do the the the regular size like iPhone 10 sized phone

01:31:35   because I do feel like the max is too big but if I still want those features

01:31:39   and like the 10s slot is probably where I should be balancing these things all

01:31:44   out but we'll cross that bridge when we get there in September I guess I wonder

01:31:50   so this is this is my thing all right so you're gonna get the 10 on now well you

01:31:55   lost until September. I wonder, I just wonder. I don't know if I'll be willing to say either

01:32:04   way.

01:32:05   Whenever I ever flip-flopped on technology decisions.

01:32:07   Yeah, right, whenever.

01:32:08   The thing is, is that I do feel like with this specific thing, that if you do really

01:32:13   like the XR, you might be able to last because there aren't really that many differences.

01:32:19   Maybe the camera, maybe the 2X camera would be really great on you over time, but you

01:32:24   just don't know that yet. That's the thing right now. I feel like that might be the thing, right?

01:32:28   Like we all go somewhere and like everyone can get a great picture except you, right? Like,

01:32:34   you know, because I've been in those situations. Steven and his blue phone are left out in the

01:32:39   party. I've been in those situations but when it was just on the plus where like I could get a

01:32:43   great picture and other people couldn't because they couldn't get the zoom that they wanted.

01:32:48   So yeah, but I don't know. I don't know. I'm intrigued. I'm interested to see what you do.

01:32:54   I bet you keep it. I bet you keep it and I bet you give your Max away to whoever it is in your

01:32:59   family that wants a new phone. But I am not willing to talk of as much certainty to say

01:33:05   that you'll keep that $10 all the way to the end of the year. Yeah, yeah. Especially if the 11 Max

01:33:13   as like three cameras and a bunch of new camera features.

01:33:17   Oh, I was 100 percent the moment that the Max gets more features

01:33:21   than the other phone.

01:33:22   Stephen will come in to come back to the Max Club without a shadow of a doubt.

01:33:25   You think you're going to stick with the 11R? I don't think so.

01:33:27   So enjoy it while it lasts.

01:33:29   Yeah.

01:33:31   This next eight months, you're a pretty colorful phone.

01:33:35   But you're going to put a case on it, though.

01:33:38   He doesn't like the clear one. He wrote so in the review.

01:33:41   I don't like clear cases.

01:33:42   I picked up a Spigen case where it is like a rubber bumper with a clear back and the bumpers

01:33:50   match to the blue. I'll dig up a link to it for the show notes. It's really nice. I have the phone

01:33:56   in that case right now. I think it will probably be the case that I use with this phone. Again,

01:34:01   I don't like clear cases because it shows a bunch of junk in the back. And after a few days,

01:34:05   there's like a hair back there that's like really making my eye twitch. But the speaking case is

01:34:10   still going to have that problem. That's what I'm saying it's in the Spigen case and it at least the

01:34:14   bumper covers all the stuff around the edges but if stuff gets in the back then uh yeah I don't know

01:34:19   why Apple just didn't make a leather case and then just punch holes in it like the like the 5c case

01:34:23   that would have been fine with me. Has nobody made just a bumper? I don't know the Spigen case came

01:34:28   recommended um actually by Joanna on the talk show she talked about it so that's the one I picked up

01:34:34   but uh we'll see. I would take a look at I wonder if Rhino Shield because Rhino Shield make bumper

01:34:40   for the 10 line, so they might make one for the 10R line.

01:34:44   Because that's gonna give you the protection

01:34:46   that you as a human being desperately need on your phones

01:34:49   'cause you break them all.

01:34:50   But without giving you the issue of having a clear case,

01:34:56   when putting a case that covers up the color

01:34:59   of these phones, there's at that point,

01:35:01   why are you even bothering, right?

01:35:03   - Which is why Apple didn't do it, right?

01:35:05   It's why they didn't ship leather cases.

01:35:07   looks like they do make a bumper by the way. You should try out the Rhino

01:35:12   Shield line. I have problems with their initial 10 bumper

01:35:17   because it got in the way of me being able to do the gestures but I've been

01:35:23   told by people since that apparently their newer ones are better. Well the

01:35:27   Apple Clear Case and the Spigen both do that. They have a lip all the way at the

01:35:31   bottom where the Apple leather and silicone have a cut out. So we'll see.

01:35:35   I'll keep you all posted, but right now I really like this blue iPhone.

01:35:39   This crash guard NX is what I'm looking at.

01:35:41   You can do a bunch of colors and stuff.

01:35:45   You can change the colors of the buttons and stuff like that.

01:35:49   Go wild.

01:35:50   Go crazy.

01:35:51   I think that does it for this week on Connected.

01:35:54   If you want to find links to stuff we talked about, head over to the website, relay.fm/connected/228.

01:36:00   While you're there, you can get in touch.

01:36:02   You can send us an email or you can find us on Twitter.

01:36:05   You can find Myke there is I M Y K E I Myke.

01:36:10   Myke hosts a bunch of shows here on relay FM.

01:36:13   So head over to relay.fm/shows.

01:36:16   You can find something else with Myke's lovely voice on it.

01:36:19   You can find Federico on Twitter, VITICCI.

01:36:24   Federico is the editor in chief of Max stories.net where they publish all sorts of madness.

01:36:32   You've shown us some stuff you're working on with some new automation stuff and it's

01:36:35   mind blowing.

01:36:36   I was going to say, stay tuned.

01:36:39   You can find me on Twitter @ismh.

01:36:42   You can find my writing at 512pixels.net.

01:36:46   And until next week guys, say goodbye.