217: A Brief Moment in 1995


00:00:00   (upbeat music)

00:00:02   - Hello and welcome to Connected episode 217.

00:00:11   It's brought to you this week by Squarespace,

00:00:13   Simple Contacts, and Luna Display.

00:00:16   I'm your host, Steven Hackett,

00:00:17   and I'm joined as always by my two co-hosts.

00:00:20   I have Federico Vittucci.

00:00:21   - Hello, Steven.

00:00:23   - Hello, Federico, how are you?

00:00:25   - I'm doing great.

00:00:26   I'm in front of a 4K display for serious Mac users, but I'm not a serious Mac user, so

00:00:32   I don't know what's going on.

00:00:34   Something's off here.

00:00:37   Something's happened.

00:00:38   We'll get to that, I think.

00:00:40   And we're also joined by very serious Mac user and gaming PC enthusiast, Myke Hurley.

00:00:46   You can't do real gaming on a Macintosh.

00:00:49   So I tweeted this a couple of days ago, because we're gonna get into this big iPad stuff,

00:00:54   And I was kind of just being a fool, and I tweeted, "You can't do real gaming on a Macintosh,"

00:01:00   and it was just really funny to see the replies. Because all I was doing, it's just the opposite

00:01:05   of, "You can't do real work on an iPad," right? It's the same argument.

00:01:12   Everybody knows that.

00:01:13   Although I would actually say that it is more true that you can't do real gaming on a Mac.

00:01:18   You're not wrong, but you were just like, you're not just stirring up the beehive, like

00:01:23   were just like full out just like I don't know just like jumping in head

00:01:27   first to the beehive my analogies got mixed up we should just move on to

00:01:32   follow up because that happens at the beginning of the show I would hate to

00:01:35   dive in head first into a beehive it would be very soft like one of those

00:01:40   some people do that for a living like nobody does that nobody dives head first

00:01:45   they do you know that with the with the astronaut suit they don't go head first

00:01:50   What would be the point of that?

00:01:52   I wouldn't help anything!

00:01:54   Maybe because it's fun?

00:01:56   I'm coming in! I'm coming in!

00:01:58   Your job is to A) look after the bees

00:02:00   and B) get the honey

00:02:02   You do neither if you go ahead first

00:02:04   You can take the plunge if you have protection

00:02:06   You know, that's my way of life

00:02:10   Follow up! We have some follow up

00:02:12   At some point over the last few weeks

00:02:16   we were talking about the number of

00:02:18   about the number of Mac notebooks you can buy.

00:02:22   And I think it was a question from Twitter

00:02:24   about if this is the biggest number.

00:02:27   And I thought, yes, yes it is.

00:02:28   But turns out, no, no it's not.

00:02:31   So this comes from Ed Cormany.

00:02:34   He is a buddy of mine.

00:02:35   He hosts a podcast called Simple Beep.

00:02:37   So if you like Apple history stuff,

00:02:39   you should go check that out.

00:02:40   There'll be a link in the show notes.

00:02:41   It's a really fun show.

00:02:43   And somehow I'm in their slack for that podcast.

00:02:46   There's like the two of them and then me.

00:02:48   It's because you are their patronus.

00:02:52   I met Ed at the New York Life Show

00:02:54   and told him how much you love their show.

00:02:58   Yeah, I do love their show very much.

00:03:00   So go check it out.

00:03:01   Anyways, so Ed pointed out that for a brief moment in 1995,

00:03:06   Apple's PowerBook line was bonkers.

00:03:09   So I'm just going to read these models.

00:03:10   You too are like best friends.

00:03:12   It must be.

00:03:12   Like, this is just like the most Stephen Hackett follow up.

00:03:16   Briefly in 1995.

00:03:19   It's like, oh, god.

00:03:20   I just want to be correct, because we have listeners

00:03:23   who they may be questioned on this at some point

00:03:25   in their lives, and I don't want to leave them astray.

00:03:27   Just you and Ed, the only two people that one, no, or two

00:03:31   care about this.

00:03:33   But please, please fill everyone in.

00:03:35   All right.

00:03:36   PowerBook 145B, the PowerBook 165, the PowerBook 230,

00:03:41   the PowerBook 280, and then you get to the color models.

00:03:44   The PowerBook 280c, the PowerBook 520c,

00:03:48   and the PowerBook 540c.

00:03:51   This is from a Wikipedia timeline of Mac models,

00:03:55   so I'm assuming that it's correct.

00:03:56   I didn't go and verify, but that is a mountain of computers.

00:04:01   Yeah, so we talk about transitions in computing,

00:04:05   like Intel and ARM.

00:04:07   In the mid-90s, we were going from grayscale

00:04:10   to color screens.

00:04:11   Can you imagine what it must have felt like

00:04:12   to get your first color screen on a computer.

00:04:14   Like we're all too young to remember that,

00:04:16   but it must have been mind blowing.

00:04:18   Right now somewhere Dr. Drang is keeling over dead

00:04:21   thinking about how young we are.

00:04:22   - Federico, which one of those was your favorite?

00:04:24   - I mean for sure the 165,

00:04:30   I have fond memories of the PowerBook 165, you know,

00:04:35   because it could only handle 165 files on the disk.

00:04:39   - That's why they wrote the numbers, man.

00:04:41   - So you had to do, you know, it was like,

00:04:44   like it forced you to be sort of like a Zen,

00:04:47   you know, approach to computing.

00:04:48   You can only have 165 files.

00:04:50   So what you're gonna choose, you know,

00:04:52   like all your, your, your Claris works documents,

00:04:56   you know, you had to be really picky about those

00:04:59   because you, you know, if you saved one,

00:05:01   well now it's 164.

00:05:03   So, you know, good times, good times.

00:05:06   - Oh, the number would go down, like it started.

00:05:08   - The number would go down and when it reached zero,

00:05:10   you had to return the computer. You're done. It's full up now. So what do you think is

00:05:16   going to happen? I can't put any more files in this thing. Please take it back. We also

00:05:23   have spoken about the performance of the MacBook Air and I spent some time with one today,

00:05:30   not really enough time to like have any deep impressions except that it's a really nice

00:05:33   laptop and I think it's, I agree with what Jason said on upgrade this week that I think

00:05:37   It's like the default Mac notebook now.

00:05:39   MacRumors had put together a bunch of performance stuff

00:05:44   on the new machines, and the MacBook Air is solidly

00:05:47   in between the MacBook and the MacBook Pro.

00:05:52   In some cases, very close to that MacBook Pro

00:05:55   with two ports and no touch bar, the escape model.

00:05:59   Actually, very close to that in single core performance,

00:06:01   which is pretty interesting.

00:06:04   And then there's the Mac Mini, which the 6-core i7--

00:06:10   this is so sad--

00:06:12   I'm quoting-- "closely matches the 2013 Mac Pro models

00:06:16   when it comes to multi-core performance

00:06:18   and exceeds them when it comes to single-core performance."

00:06:21   So rest in peace, 2013 Mac Pro.

00:06:26   Can I just say about that Mac Mini?

00:06:28   So Marco got a review in it.

00:06:30   He did a really great video and written review.

00:06:33   And he did a bunch of like, interesting tests.

00:06:36   Like they were tests that I could like fathom because the,

00:06:41   the Geekbench stuff, like, I don't know what it like, what,

00:06:44   what am I supposed to do with those numbers? Like, hooray, I can bench geeks.

00:06:48   Like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do with that stuff. But like he did,

00:06:52   he did a bunch of like things that are broken down into seconds and minutes and

00:06:56   the Mac mini is like surprisingly close to the iMac Pro.

00:07:02   Like the 10 core iMac Pro.

00:07:05   Like I kind of cannot believe how much power

00:07:10   that machine has.

00:07:11   Like that, it is pretty astounding I think.

00:07:14   - I forget where, I think Marco said it somewhere,

00:07:17   maybe Jason did.

00:07:18   I have consumed a lot of stuff this week, but--

00:07:21   - Yeah, it's been really good.

00:07:23   - Yeah, someone smarter than me said,

00:07:25   you know, had this really interesting point,

00:07:26   like the Mac Mini now defines like the entry level Mac Pro.

00:07:30   Like, the Mac Pro will be better than this machine, probably notably.

00:07:34   Which makes me excited about the Mac Pro.

00:07:36   Isn't that exciting, right?

00:07:37   Like, how good is it gonna be?

00:07:39   It's gonna be so good!

00:07:40   I'm genuinely, like, really excited to see the Mac Pro now.

00:07:45   Yeah.

00:07:46   Because, like, just how much of a beast is that thing gonna be?

00:07:49   That's very exciting.

00:07:50   It's gonna be stellar.

00:07:51   But what's so interesting is, you know, Apple said, "Well, the Mac Mini is for pros," and

00:07:57   They didn't really share this side of it, I think, very well in the keynote.

00:08:01   They said how much faster it was than the old one, but that thing was 19 years old.

00:08:07   Anything would be faster than that.

00:08:11   It's really exciting to see, at least if you spec it up and get an expensive one.

00:08:14   This is the i7, this is an expensive Mac Mini.

00:08:16   This is faster than the one that is out for delivery at my house right now.

00:08:21   If you need something really powerful and small, the Mac Mini is a viable option.

00:08:26   And I think that's pretty exciting.

00:08:27   And yes, the GPU's not there,

00:08:29   but if you need one, you can do Thunderbolt.

00:08:31   And if you've thought about the Mac Mini before,

00:08:34   you're like, oh yeah, it'd be nice to have one for this,

00:08:36   like whatever this is in your life.

00:08:37   Like Marco's test is like building overcast in Xcode.

00:08:42   Like if you have that sort of job,

00:08:44   the Mac Mini seems like an incredible option now.

00:08:47   Like you're gonna pay for it,

00:08:48   but I'm excited to see that they really did build,

00:08:52   at least in custom ordering, a pro version of this thing.

00:08:55   I would imagine that there are a lot of people that would have bought a laptop

00:08:59   that can now buy a Mac Mini instead.

00:09:01   You know, like people that were buying a laptop because it was cheaper and they

00:09:05   had a display and they could just plug it in, right, rather than buying, like

00:09:09   going all in on like an iMac Pro or something.

00:09:11   There could be something there to it, but it's a very impressive computer.

00:09:15   And I think probably purposefully Apple didn't really

00:09:20   bother to go into this.

00:09:22   It's such a niche product that, you know, it's probably the reason they gave it to someone like Marco who can like

00:09:28   tell the story as somebody who is the exact target market to the people that

00:09:33   would be buying it, right? Like I would expect that a vast majority of people that would buy that Mac Mini have read Marco's review.

00:09:41   Like it is or at least would would buy it right now, you know, like getting like mine, but like people are gonna buy it immediately.

00:09:49   They're the people that are looking for that kind of content because it is very much a niche computer

00:09:54   But I think that it's really exciting that they've given it way more than anybody would have expected

00:10:00   Mm-hmm. They're gonna sell the bulk of them this quarter. No doubt

00:10:04   You know for me I got one as a home server, but like it I could do my work on a loaded Mac mini

00:10:11   I would need it an eGPU

00:10:12   But like it's a viable machine for someone even like me like I'm on the base model

00:10:17   iMac Pro because according to these these tests like real-world tests like

00:10:20   you said that Marco did it's in the ballpark for you know probably

00:10:25   significantly less money depending on the display and EGP you buy so do you

00:10:29   have it times no it is out for delivery so it'll probably be here this evening

00:10:33   okay I did see one in the store today it looks cool in space gray but that's all

00:10:39   that's all I just saw it so have I told you guys the the setup that up the that

00:10:45   I'm gonna get for the Mac Mini? Nope. But I don't wanna know. Alright, so... you don't

00:10:50   wanna know? No, I do! Don't tell me! No, I want to know! Yeah, I thought you said "I

00:10:54   don't wanna know", I was like "Wow, that's harsh!" Don't tell me, don't care! Get out

00:10:57   of here, Macs, boo! No, I wanna know. So, I'm getting the i76 core, 3.2 GHz, 16 GHz

00:11:08   of RAM, internal SSD 256, because I'm also getting an external 1TB SSD from Samsung I

00:11:19   think. I was checking out a bunch of reviews and it looked like a good one with support

00:11:23   for USB 3.1.

00:11:25   Why do you want to go external for that amount?

00:11:28   Because the internal storage, I feel like the Apple prices are insane for adding storage

00:11:35   you know, with the built-in option. So I don't need to do any serious like, like I'm not

00:11:43   dealing with heavy PSD assets in Photoshop. This Mac Mini is mostly going to be used as

00:11:49   a home server and for podcasting. And I want this to be my last Macintosh computer that

00:11:55   I ever buy because I really don't think that in five years I'm going to be buying a Mac

00:12:01   we know it today at least. So the storage is mostly going to be reserved for Plex, so

00:12:11   TV shows, movies, that kind of stuff, and backups. So I think with USB-C I can just

00:12:18   get an external SSD and leave it plugged in and just use it to store media. Unless that's

00:12:26   a bad idea, but I don't think it is.

00:12:28   No, as long as you're backing up that external drive.

00:12:31   Exactly, so down the road I think like maybe you know next month

00:12:35   I'm also gonna get like a second one so that I should have like the basically the Mac Mini

00:12:40   The external drive and the backup for the drive, so I should be fine also

00:12:46   I don't keep a lot of important files on my computer

00:12:49   Everything is in Dropbox essentially

00:12:52   I already have because I bought it today. I shared a picture on Twitter. I already have the ultra fine 4k display

00:13:00   from LG that I bought at the Apple store with the new iPad Pro. And it's a very

00:13:07   beautiful display. I don't love the design, I don't like the bezels, I don't

00:13:11   like the LG logo staring at me. The stand is okay, I think I'm gonna put the Mac

00:13:17   Mini down there. Right now there's a Triforce toy that I bought a few months

00:13:22   ago. It's fine, I love the display, I don't love everything around it.

00:13:30   if that makes sense. I so wish that Apple would make a new display, like a 5K display

00:13:39   from Apple that is not an iMac, so just the display. But, you know. I also didn't want

00:13:44   to get the 5K LG because that was too big for my desk and also it felt like it was going

00:13:51   to be too compromising with the iPad Pro and the Mac Mini because the 4K uses standard

00:13:57   USB-C to output from a Mac and from an iPad now to the 4K display.

00:14:05   The 5K uses Thunderbolt 3, but for some reason the iPad Pro does not support Thunderbolt

00:14:09   3, just USB-C. So I thought, you know, it's a combination of the 4K is cheaper and it's

00:14:14   smaller so it fits my new desk better and it also works with the Mac Mini and the iPad

00:14:19   Pro, so it's gonna be like an interchangeable setup.

00:14:22   And also I'm trying to think ahead, like, I'm convinced that the iPad Pro will eventually

00:14:27   get trackpad support and mouse support and better integration with external keyboards.

00:14:33   So I'm preparing for a feature where I can just have a monitor and a single cable and

00:14:38   then I can choose to use either a Mac OS computer or an iPad computer.

00:14:43   So I'm preparing for that.

00:14:45   And right now I'm staring at the new 4K display, but it's connected to Sylvia's MacBook Pro,

00:14:50   she has a 2017 MacBook Pro.

00:14:52   My Mac Mini I think should be here next week, depends on when I put the order in and how

00:14:57   long the wait is gonna be.

00:15:00   This is all very exciting.

00:15:01   Federico buying a Mac.

00:15:05   My last Mac.

00:15:07   I think what might be better to say is it's probably your last Intel Mac.

00:15:13   Right?

00:15:14   If and when they move to ARM, they might make something that again becomes interesting to

00:15:20   you know maybe we'll see but yeah Mac Mini is still not here but the display is

00:15:28   and it's it's very nice the display itself the plastic sucks yeah it's uh

00:15:34   they should do something you know that it's funny there's a like some tweets

00:15:37   floating around like in the Mac Mini booklet there's like a picture of a

00:15:40   display kind of like there's a picture of air power in the XS Max so that team

00:15:44   is the same team working on both of those products but uh just make that one

00:15:49   That one looks really good.

00:15:51   But I guess we'll see next year with the Mac Pro.

00:15:54   I assume that's when we'll-- that'll all be one thing.

00:15:57   All right.

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00:17:48   - All right, so the new iPad Pros are here.

00:17:50   They're shipping today, they're in stores today,

00:17:54   and I believe that all three of us have our hands on them.

00:17:57   This is not a full review, we need some time to think,

00:18:00   but I thought we could talk about at least

00:18:02   our first impressions of maybe, especially the hardware,

00:18:05   because the iPad has been kinda the same recipe

00:18:09   really since the iPad mini with sort of the rounded edges,

00:18:12   and they've been in that design language for a long time,

00:18:15   and this one is a pretty drastic difference,

00:18:18   and I'm excited to hear what you guys think.

00:18:19   So Myke, you have both of them,

00:18:22   so maybe let's start with like the size comparison

00:18:24   between the two compared to the old ones?

00:18:26   - There is definitely a difference still

00:18:31   that I can very clearly see.

00:18:35   I think the impression that at least I had,

00:18:38   and I think has kind of been the general consensus

00:18:40   about these devices leading up to this is that like,

00:18:44   with the 12.9 getting smaller and then the 11 inch screen,

00:18:48   you know, now the 10 and a half is an 11 inch,

00:18:50   that they would be closer together.

00:18:54   But the 12.9 inch screen is still way more screen

00:18:58   than I want in certain circumstances.

00:19:01   Like, if I'm reading in bed at night or whatever,

00:19:05   I don't need a 13 inch screen to do that

00:19:08   and nor do I really want that.

00:19:11   And the smaller screen is definitely better for that.

00:19:16   And it's the same for when I travel.

00:19:19   Like I still...

00:19:20   OK, so this, the bigger iPad Pro is significantly smaller than the previous one,

00:19:25   but it's still noticeably bigger than the smaller one.

00:19:28   And I feel like for me, I was wondering, like I was like, I've been thinking like,

00:19:34   did I make a mistake because I got cellular on the smaller one but Wi-Fi only on the bigger one

00:19:40   because that's how I've done it in the past because the bigger one never leaves home

00:19:45   and I'm like oh man if I made a mistake like am I gonna actually want

00:19:48   cellular on the big one because I'm just gonna use that one and maybe return the smaller one

00:19:52   I don't think it's gonna happen there is still enough of a difference to me which

00:20:00   kind of they still fit the purposes that I had for them.

00:20:03   So so that's kind of the screen size differences.

00:20:06   It's still there.

00:20:07   And it is it is exactly pretty much exactly now like a 13 inch

00:20:12   MacBook Pro to a 15 inch MacBook Pro like

00:20:15   those differences on very noticeable like you put those two machines,

00:20:20   you put like two sizes of laptop next to each other and you're like, OK,

00:20:23   this is much bigger and it's heavier, you know, and all that kind of stuff.

00:20:27   So I think that still exists between these two iPads.

00:20:30   So I assume that I will be living the multi-pad lifestyle for the foreseeable future.

00:20:37   This is, you know, the 12.9.

00:20:41   Like, this is the iPad Pro for most people now, I believe.

00:20:47   I think the 10.5 was before, but I now think that most people would benefit from the 12.9.

00:20:55   I cannot believe the screen to body ratio on it.

00:21:01   It really is wild.

00:21:04   It is wild.

00:21:06   Yeah, the fact that it's so much smaller than before, the 12.9, it really does make a difference.

00:21:13   And I was comparing the...

00:21:16   Like I put the new iPad Pro on top of my old one today, and there's like at least one centimeter

00:21:22   of difference on the bottom side because the forehead and the chin have drastically been

00:21:29   reduced. So I feel like if you're looking for, if you never, I think it's interesting

00:21:36   to ask this question, if you never owned an iPad Pro, so if you still have an iPad Air

00:21:41   2 or something, which one is the best for you? And so while I personally got a 12.9

00:21:49   cellular because this is going to be my main computer that I'm gonna work on both at home

00:21:56   and when I'm around. I think it's interesting to consider whether most people should do

00:22:03   what you did and get cellular on the 11". My main problem is that the 11" still doesn't

00:22:11   show you two apps in the regular size class. When you do split view it only shows you the

00:22:18   compact size class. So if that's a deal-breaker for you, you're gonna want to do 12.9, I think.

00:22:26   But also there's a question of, do you want to use this iPad when you're done working,

00:22:31   do you want to use it to read in bed or something, or to watch movies for example? And I do think

00:22:37   that in spite of the size reduction, I think it's still a little uncomfortable to read

00:22:42   with the 12.9", even in portrait mode for example.

00:22:47   So for me the big problem of the limited split view on the 11", that single problem convinced

00:22:56   me that I was going to stick with the 12.9".

00:22:58   If multitasking is not a big deal for you, I would recommend starting from the 11", because

00:23:03   I think it's more portable than the 12.9".

00:23:06   Even though as a computer, the 12.9 I think is the better deal.

00:23:12   I don't know if this makes sense, but basically portability is still an issue for you.

00:23:16   If it's really important for you to have a portable iPad, go for the 11 inch.

00:23:21   If you want to have a computer replacement and you don't mind the extra size basically,

00:23:30   I love the 12.9.

00:23:34   That thought process is exactly why there's a 12.9 on my desk.

00:23:38   I had the 12.9 initially, and then I went to the 10 5 Pro, and I'm telling y'all, going

00:23:45   back to the smaller size, the iPad mostly became consumption device for me because I

00:23:50   really like the two full-size apps side by side.

00:23:55   When the 11 didn't get that, I knew that I was destined for the bigger one.

00:23:59   Even though that does mean giving it up in some situations,

00:24:03   I think that for me at least,

00:24:06   like wanting to make a better run at doing more work on it,

00:24:10   that the size is a big deal.

00:24:13   And you know, it's funny,

00:24:16   one of the stores, I've seen both of them,

00:24:19   and they definitely still,

00:24:21   they feel more different than I thought they would.

00:24:24   I thought they would feel like,

00:24:26   you know, kind of, I don't know,

00:24:27   like the the the max and the iPhone 10 or 10 are like these are all really

00:24:31   close they do still feel distinctly different but with the weight reduction

00:24:35   like I picked up the the 11 is like holy cow this is light and and I feel the

00:24:41   same way about the 12 - now it's been a long time since I've owned a 12 but it

00:24:45   just seems like they've shaved some weight off of it and that that does make

00:24:48   it more portable in its own way like you could walk around and hold this much

00:24:52   easier I think than the old one and that's a positive for some people not in

00:24:56   a bad way, but how weird the flat edges feel.

00:24:59   It's very weird.

00:25:01   I like it. Feel no, but it's weird because it's very unlike any

00:25:05   other like iOS device that I've had in a very long time.

00:25:10   It's like abnormal.

00:25:12   I like it a lot.

00:25:13   I like the look of it and it's interesting.

00:25:15   But like, yeah, it does feel kind of like nostalgic even.

00:25:20   It's it's kind of it's kind of interesting.

00:25:22   It's a throwback.

00:25:23   Does feel like that. Yeah.

00:25:24   I kind of wish that Apple would go this route across their devices.

00:25:29   Like, I like the squared off sides.

00:25:32   I think it looks really modern in a way that I wasn't expecting.

00:25:37   I don't love the antenna lines.

00:25:38   I went with the silver primarily because the antenna lines are lighter than the aluminum.

00:25:43   I felt like on the Space Gray it was not the best looking, to my eye at least.

00:25:48   But I kind of dig it.

00:25:51   It's got a presence to it that I sort of find interesting.

00:25:56   Yeah, antenna lines are so friggin weird on the Selena model.

00:26:01   They're like, "Okay, not only does it go across the edge, also kind of on the top."

00:26:05   Like it's like, what is going on with these things?

00:26:08   I like, I actually kind of, I think it looks pretty cool.

00:26:12   Like I like that it's not being specifically trying to be hidden.

00:26:16   I think it can look worse when they try and hide it.

00:26:18   you kind of like call it out and make it look more like a design element.

00:26:21   But they are freaky on the on the cellular like on the on the Wi-Fi they don't have that

00:26:28   little line that sticks out.

00:26:30   It's just it just goes across but it doesn't you know you got like weirdly not in the middle

00:26:36   on either of them.

00:26:38   You've got like the two little notches that go from the line around the top of the screen

00:26:42   that doesn't exist.

00:26:44   It's a strange they're strange looking.

00:26:47   You know, there was a render or something of an iPhone 7

00:26:50   like years ago that is basically this design.

00:26:53   Do you remember that?

00:26:54   Like it had the antenna lines like this.

00:26:55   - Yeah, the iPhone Pro.

00:26:57   - That's right.

00:26:58   - The iPhone Pro, yeah.

00:27:00   - You know, so they haven't really blended it in as nicely,

00:27:02   but I like the silver, I especially like the silver

00:27:07   with the contrast with the keyboard folio.

00:27:10   I think that's sort of a nice look, but--

00:27:13   - Can we talk about that?

00:27:14   Can we talk about that keyboard?

00:27:16   Oh my god, yeah, okay, so I don't like it.

00:27:20   I never liked the smart keyboard, or I should say I--

00:27:24   - You grew to dislike it, I think,

00:27:26   'cause you found other things that you like more.

00:27:28   - I grew to dislike the smart keyboard,

00:27:31   and so after having used a bridge keyboard

00:27:34   for almost a year now, it's very difficult for me

00:27:37   to go back to the keyboard folio.

00:27:40   And it's not, the features that are new

00:27:43   to the keyboard folio, I kinda like.

00:27:45   So I like that I was wrong at the hands-on area.

00:27:49   It's very easy to put it into the case.

00:27:53   It didn't seem easy.

00:27:56   Maybe the demo person wasn't just familiar with it enough.

00:27:59   I think it's fine.

00:28:00   I like the laptop viewing angle.

00:28:08   I think the desk mode angle is a lie.

00:28:10   That is a steep angle.

00:28:12   That is not made for desks.

00:28:13   I think Myke made an argument today in our iMessage conversation that this feels more

00:28:19   like a movie mode. It's a media mode.

00:28:22   Yeah, they're just calling it desk mode because you can't get rid of the keyboard anymore,

00:28:28   like you used to be able to. I will say that I have used it in that angle on a desk and

00:28:33   it works, but it's...

00:28:35   Yeah, you're gonna have some neck pain.

00:28:37   You've got it far away from you, right? Like if it's not right in front of you... Funny

00:28:41   Again, this is super strange to me, but I guess it's just because of the law of physics.

00:28:47   The angles are different on each model.

00:28:50   Oh, interesting.

00:28:51   They're both steeper on the 11 than they are on the 12.

00:28:57   Interesting.

00:28:58   OK.

00:28:59   So, what is new to the keyboard folio?

00:29:02   I don't hate.

00:29:04   My main problem remains the keyboard.

00:29:08   It's not a backlit keyboard.

00:29:11   The keys are too small for me compared to the Brydge keyboard, which uses like an old

00:29:16   style MacBook keyboard type of setup.

00:29:22   The keyboard itself is very small and it feels like my hands are constantly cramped into

00:29:28   this keyboard.

00:29:30   And also it doesn't have any special media key or any special function key.

00:29:37   So there's no Siri key, for example, which I get on the Bridge keyboard.

00:29:41   There are no media controls, which you used to get on MacBook Pro keyboards before the

00:29:46   Touch Bar.

00:29:47   You know, stuff to play and pause and change the volume and control the brightness of the

00:29:53   display and the brightness of the keyboard.

00:29:55   The Smart Keyboard Folio lacks all of these features.

00:29:59   And so, I'm gonna use this for now, because it's my only option.

00:30:03   But as soon as somebody, or Bridge itself, make a version of the keyboard that I want,

00:30:09   an aluminum keyboard that I want for the iPad Pro, I'm gonna get it right away.

00:30:14   Because I can accept the Smart Keyboard Folio for now, it's an expensive thing to accept,

00:30:21   but it's my only option.

00:30:23   I should probably try again the Kanopy by StudioNeat, I think it sort of works with

00:30:28   the new iPad Pro, but I want an integrated setup, I want to have something that I can

00:30:32   attached to my iPad and carry around. I don't want to have like a separate thing.

00:30:35   So unfortunately I don't like it because I know where my preference is and it's

00:30:42   not this. I was surprised at the texture of the outside. It's smoother than

00:30:53   the previous one and it's different to the texture on the keyboard and the

00:30:57   keyboard's texture is how the whole thing used to be.

00:31:00   Yes.

00:31:02   I have nothing to say about it.

00:31:04   It's just, I was surprised by it.

00:31:06   I think it's perfect for stickers.

00:31:09   I think this thing is screaming for stickers.

00:31:12   I thought that exact thing, and yes it is, because it is the most boring-looking thing in the world.

00:31:15   It's just boring.

00:31:16   It doesn't even have an Apple logo on it, which I was super surprised about.

00:31:19   No, nothing.

00:31:20   Nothing.

00:31:21   And I was gonna say something.

00:31:23   Oh, and it doesn't, I was surprised.

00:31:25   I didn't ask about this.

00:31:27   But the microfiber cloth inside, to keep the iPad screen clean, is gone.

00:31:36   So I wonder what's going to happen in a few months with the keys that have been sitting

00:31:41   on top of the display for a while.

00:31:44   Probably nothing, because Apple thought about this.

00:31:46   But I thought it was interesting that that is gone, because it wraps around, so of course

00:31:50   there's no microfiber anymore.

00:31:52   I didn't think it's harder to get it out.

00:31:55   and I wanted to see it a second ago

00:31:57   and look at the antenna lines.

00:31:58   Like you sort of have to like hold it

00:32:00   and it'll take some practice I think.

00:32:02   But the immediate thing I don't like is

00:32:05   if you're on your finger on the left side

00:32:07   to hit the sleep wake button,

00:32:08   the edge of the folio stands out a little bit

00:32:13   from the edge of the iPad.

00:32:14   And so like it's hard,

00:32:15   like it's easy to basically push against the folio

00:32:18   and not the button.

00:32:19   Like it's just something about that

00:32:21   feels a little sloppy to me.

00:32:22   But you know, other than that,

00:32:24   I think it looks nicer than the old Smart Cover.

00:32:28   I think it's like more of a product in a way,

00:32:31   like sort of more luxurious in a way

00:32:33   that it's covered back and front.

00:32:35   It's like a little iPad sandwich.

00:32:37   But I don't have the problems with the keyboard you do.

00:32:40   I am going to like returning to the wider one,

00:32:43   going down to the 10-5.

00:32:45   Keyboard is a little cramped for me.

00:32:46   And this is basically the width of the keyboard

00:32:48   I use at my desk.

00:32:50   So I'm hoping that there'll be very little

00:32:52   adjustment period for me.

00:32:53   But I understand why you don't like it,

00:32:55   and I agree with you.

00:32:56   There should be more options from Apple on this.

00:32:57   It's silly that there's just this one.

00:33:00   - Or in general, there's none this time.

00:33:02   Like, at least with the previous iPad Pros,

00:33:05   Logitech have launched on launch day with products,

00:33:09   and it doesn't seem like that's the case.

00:33:12   Yeah, like the Create and the Slim,

00:33:15   like they were both available day one.

00:33:18   Or at least Logitech had information on day one

00:33:22   About products which they do not this time. I haven't seen it today

00:33:27   I'm going to their website again to see if I am since been wrong

00:33:30   I wonder if that's about I wonder if that's about the new smart connector

00:33:33   If there's something there, they've got a yeah, but you would assume

00:33:37   That if Logitech would I don't know we're interested or if Apple were interested they would have just done the same deal

00:33:44   They've done in the past like if you remember like

00:33:47   Logitech had the create out before the iPad Pro ever,

00:33:52   like they had that thing ready for day one of the iPad Pro.

00:33:56   So the product had never been seen by anyone.

00:33:59   They did a special deal with Apple, right?

00:34:01   To get advanced information, right?

00:34:04   To be able to build those cases.

00:34:06   - And fun fact, this was three years ago,

00:34:10   at my briefing for the first iPad Pro,

00:34:12   Apple PR was giving out the smart keyboard

00:34:14   and the Logitech create keyboard.

00:34:16   And if you remember, there were no smart keyboards for a very, very long time from that period.

00:34:21   Do you remember that? And like none in other languages?

00:34:24   Oh yeah, it was only in one language. Yeah, I remember that.

00:34:27   But like they were just back ordered badly. Yeah. The original Logitech Create was terrible

00:34:33   because it was an ugly piece of plastic with cheap buttons and stickers on top of buttons.

00:34:39   The only good Create was the 9.7 inch Create. It's the only good Logitech Key.

00:34:45   And they also, they redid it for last year's iPad Pro maybe, and it was good again, but

00:34:51   the first one was bad, really bad.

00:34:53   Yep.

00:34:54   It was a bad keyboard.

00:34:55   They did the one with the like keyboard that could detect, it was just a nightmare.

00:34:58   It was very bad.

00:35:00   The Apple Pencil is amazing.

00:35:03   I love it.

00:35:05   They gave me everything I wanted by and large, like at least all the important stuff.

00:35:09   The texture is nice to hold, it feels warm to touch now rather than kind of like slippery

00:35:14   and cold. It has a flat side so it doesn't roll away. I've seen people saying, like,

00:35:21   there was like, "Oh, it's actually a touch sensitive area." It's not touch. It's not

00:35:25   a touch sensitive area. It's an accelerometer because you can touch anywhere on the pencil

00:35:30   and it will change tools. You know what I'm talking about?

00:35:34   When you double tap. Yeah, when you double tap on the pencil to

00:35:36   change tools. I think I read somewhere...

00:35:40   I read somewhere that somebody said it was touch sensitive, but that means the entire pencil is touch sensitive?

00:35:44   No, no, no. I think maybe Panzarin on TechCrunch, maybe.

00:35:48   There's a there's a special sensor toward the lower end of the pencil that basically receives double tapping.

00:35:59   I don't know. I don't think it's touch.

00:36:01   I don't know if it's just an accelerometer, though.

00:36:04   I'm going to find it and I'm going to I'm going to follow up on this.

00:36:09   Yeah, you know what, actually, it's like a band.

00:36:12   It's like a band. I'm trying it out and like, it seems like it's it's

00:36:16   it is just down the bottom.

00:36:18   So there's something going on in the bottom, but it's not like

00:36:20   at least it doesn't seem in the way that I'd read it.

00:36:23   Like it's not like the flat side is a touch sensitive strip.

00:36:26   Like there is no necessarily like touch sensitiveness about it

00:36:30   other than like something's going on.

00:36:31   But you have to double tap it and you can tap it anywhere.

00:36:34   That's probably a better way of putting it.

00:36:36   But I am very pleased with this new Apple pencil.

00:36:40   I'm very excited about it.

00:36:42   I love that it's always charging.

00:36:45   I love that it's always there.

00:36:46   I have noticed that like it is possible to attach it incorrectly.

00:36:51   So because it's a magnet, right, you can kind of attach it

00:36:55   to the left or to the right and it will stick on to the top of the iPad.

00:36:59   But it is not secure.

00:37:01   So you kind of have to make sure you get it direct.

00:37:04   not you have to make sure it's in the middle because otherwise it won't charge and it won't

00:37:07   be a secure hold. Oh yeah you're right. So you can put it to the left you can put it to the right so

00:37:12   like it's more kind of towards the edge but then it's not secure. I don't think that's a problem

00:37:18   but like it's just something to be aware of and I've already found myself using my apple pencil

00:37:24   more again because it's more convenient to grab and it's always charged which my apple pencil

00:37:30   never is because I would keep it attached to my iPad so the battery would drain away.

00:37:35   So something that I noticed, I agree with you completely, I'm already using it more,

00:37:39   something that I noticed though is that I kind of wish it was possible to also attach

00:37:45   it to the shorter side of the iPad because if I want to use the iPad Pro in portrait

00:37:52   and hold it with my hands, it gets in the way of the pencil and so the pencil detaches.

00:37:58   And so I kinda wish that Apple made it so that you could attach it to the top side or

00:38:03   the bottom side.

00:38:04   I understand why they're not doing it, because the bottom side has the USB-C connector and

00:38:08   the top side has the... they call it the top button, actually, in settings.

00:38:13   And also there's the speakers on those sides.

00:38:17   Still, I kinda wish that it was possible, because I wanna hold my iPad in portrait and

00:38:22   have the pencil attached at the top.

00:38:25   I don't think that's a wild idea.

00:38:26   I think most people would expect that, but it's only one side with the magnetic connector.

00:38:31   So fourth generation iPad Pro, please make it possible to attach the pencil on any side

00:38:37   of the iPad.

00:38:38   Thank you.

00:38:39   You can stick it on the back if you don't have the keyboard cover on.

00:38:44   Would you trust that?

00:38:45   Yeah.

00:38:46   I feel like I want to look at it.

00:38:49   I want to make sure that I see it.

00:38:52   I want it to be at the top.

00:38:53   I'm going to stick it to the back, actually.

00:38:55   I didn't think about that.

00:38:56   I have the keyboard cover on, it sticks to the back pretty well.

00:39:00   I should do that, but also I want it to be at the top so I can look at it.

00:39:04   I just want to make sure it's there.

00:39:06   Myke, let me ask you this.

00:39:09   Did you get the pencil engraved for you?

00:39:13   No.

00:39:14   I wish I did.

00:39:16   I wanted to, but I was concerned that having it engraved meant that I wouldn't get it on

00:39:22   the first day.

00:39:23   Alright, time to get a second one.

00:39:25   Well, I already have two.

00:39:27   Multi-pencil life.

00:39:29   Oh, come on, have three.

00:39:32   Two is one anyway, and three is two.

00:39:34   So--

00:39:34   Yeah, that's how it works.

00:39:36   At some point, yes.

00:39:37   And I will-- if I do, I will get Michael's right on it,

00:39:39   because that just seems like fun.

00:39:41   That's Marco's idea.

00:39:42   But look, I have so many other thoughts about this,

00:39:47   but it's too much for today.

00:39:49   But like, Face ID is brilliant.

00:39:51   It's super fast.

00:39:52   I've barely tested USB-C. Like, there

00:39:55   There's so much stuff like...

00:39:58   So much more that we need to discuss.

00:40:00   You don't put your finger on the home button anymore, but oh boy does it still love your

00:40:03   fingerprint this thing.

00:40:04   Oh boy, oh boy, still a fingerprint magnet, I'm hoping they would have fixed that.

00:40:10   But I guess it's something, my assumption is it's something to do with the Apple pencil,

00:40:14   which just means that it picks up, like that coating that they put on it.

00:40:17   Yeah.

00:40:18   But like, oh my god, this is the best, this is just like the best hardware.

00:40:22   So what we're gonna do is we're gonna keep testing this of course, we're gonna talk about

00:40:27   it next week more in depth.

00:40:29   Personally speaking, I don't think I will do a full review on Mac stories because I

00:40:35   don't want to keep people waiting for like two weeks, so my approach is probably going

00:40:40   to be split it up in a series of articles, each about a different topic.

00:40:46   So if you have questions about the iPad Pro, please send them to us, or if you have questions

00:40:51   specifically for me, please send them to me, I'm going to be testing a bunch of USB-C accessories

00:40:57   because thankfully I've been spending a lot of money in the past year preparing for the

00:41:02   USB-C revolution, so I have a bunch of things that I can already plug into the iPad Pro,

00:41:06   so I'm gonna test that and we're gonna follow up here on connected and we'll try and put

00:41:12   together a series of posts on Mac stories, starting this week with the first one I think.

00:41:18   So different approach this year, you know, different setup, different approach should

00:41:23   be fun.

00:41:24   All right, let's take a break.

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00:43:35   All right, more topics. This list just never ends.

00:43:40   - It does, it will eventually it'll end, but not now.

00:43:43   - 22 pages down in Google Docs.

00:43:46   So just because we are new to the iPad Pro

00:43:49   doesn't mean everyone else is.

00:43:51   There have been quite a few reviews out there.

00:43:54   We've got some in the show notes

00:43:58   and we're gonna talk a little bit about

00:44:01   some of the themes I think we've seen in this.

00:44:03   I think there are a couple of pretty clear ideas

00:44:06   that a lot of people have had around this

00:44:10   and I think a lot of it comes down to the conversation

00:44:12   of hardware versus software.

00:44:15   We talked about this last time,

00:44:16   that this iPad Pro is ridiculous from a hardware perspective

00:44:21   but a lot of people seem to feel the way that I feel,

00:44:23   at least, is that I'm not hamstrung by the hardware,

00:44:27   it's iOS that I find limiting in some things

00:44:30   that I want to do.

00:44:32   So I thought we could talk about that

00:44:34   and I figured there's no better people on the whole planet

00:44:38   argue with us, to argue with me about this than the two of you, since you guys are iPad

00:44:44   first.

00:44:45   I would like to make an opening statement on behalf of me and Federico, because I know

00:44:50   he's going to agree with me. But I feel like we need to just say it. We don't disagree

00:44:55   with that premise. The idea that iOS 12 isn't where it should be. We talk about this all

00:45:01   the time, about what we would like to see in the next version of iOS. We spoke about

00:45:06   it before iOS 12 came out. We've been speaking about it since iOS 11 came into the world,

00:45:11   right? So there are definitely things that iOS is lacking. There are definitely things

00:45:17   we believe and hope that iOS 13 will add. Like 100% that is the case, right? Like we

00:45:22   agree with this premise. There is a problem though, in about some of the ways that these

00:45:29   arguments get framed and get twisted that is then for some reason thrown back at me

00:45:35   and Federico, and then we're just like, have to deal with being not professionals and that

00:45:43   we have to jump through hoops all the time.

00:45:45   These are the opinions that people have of what it's like to work on the iPad.

00:45:49   So straight up, we agree with that sentiment, but there's a lot of nuance that is missed

00:45:55   by people that don't use these devices to get their work done every single day.

00:45:59   I have an opening statement to bounce off of yours.

00:46:02   we're all in agreement with this, that at the end of the day,

00:46:06   if it bothers you how someone else gets their work done,

00:46:09   then maybe you need to go for a walk, right?

00:46:12   This is not about, I think any three of us

00:46:16   approach this as the iPad is gonna come in

00:46:21   and take my Mac off my desk and I'm gonna show up

00:46:24   and Tim Cook will be midway plugging in

00:46:26   a USB-C cable to an iPad,

00:46:28   with my iMac Pro in pieces on the floor.

00:46:30   People get defensive about this.

00:46:32   Mac users get defensive about this,

00:46:34   I think in a way that is a little unbecoming

00:46:38   and frankly, like rooted in fear

00:46:41   that their precious Mac is going to go away.

00:46:44   And I don't believe that.

00:46:46   Like in the long term, maybe, but anytime soon,

00:46:49   anytime of timeframe that makes sense to talk about,

00:46:54   the Mac is not going anywhere.

00:46:57   Apple wouldn't be making the investments they are now

00:46:59   into it if that was the plan.

00:47:01   Now long term, maybe that's a different topic, but we can argue about things that are going

00:47:06   to happen 10, 15, 20 years from now, or we can talk about where we are today.

00:47:10   I think that's what we want to do.

00:47:12   The iPad isn't killing the Mac.

00:47:14   If anything, it's the iPhone, because it's iOS.

00:47:17   And iOS is led by the iPhone.

00:47:19   Like the strategic advantages of iOS, Apple fills them in the iPhone primarily.

00:47:25   If there is a big change coming, it is because the iPhone is so successful, not because the

00:47:30   iPad is so successful. That's why they're that's what if they're gonna make any

00:47:34   change that's why they're gonna make it. It's got nothing to do with iPad versus

00:47:38   Mac. It's the impact that the iPhone has had on Apple has changed them as a

00:47:44   company and that's kind of why we're where we are or where we could end up

00:47:48   being. Yeah and so again like I think in this conversation it is about how we how

00:47:56   y'all get our work done. It's that that is not that is not a broader statement.

00:48:03   It doesn't necessarily have to be a broader statement on the way the whole

00:48:07   world works or the whole the way the whole world should work but people get

00:48:11   excited on Twitter and get get upset and I think that's just I think that's silly

00:48:17   we can have a conversation about this without getting into that side of things

00:48:21   which I think is what the three of us want.

00:48:23   -Mm-hmm. So, you guys had opening statements.

00:48:28   I just have statements.

00:48:31   Or I just want to have a discussion about --

00:48:35   No, I just want to get serious for, like, five minutes,

00:48:38   if you'll let me, and have a discussion about the idea

00:48:41   of iOS being limited.

00:48:45   Because I think it's fascinating to observe

00:48:49   of how this discussion is sort of generated in this corner of the media industry and how

00:48:56   it sort of relates to my experience, my personal experience, but also to the experiences of

00:49:02   people that I've talked to and also use iPads. And I think, like, the more I read these reviews

00:49:09   and the more I see these conversations on Twitter on what makes a computer or not or

00:49:14   the problems of iOS, I think it's pretty clear to me that iOS has limitations when it's compared

00:49:21   to Mac OS. I think that's obvious. I also think, though, that there's this sort of odd

00:49:27   tension between people who have grown up with iOS. So if you bought an original iPad and

00:49:36   you were 10, you probably use your iPad for games or, you know, simple stuff. Now you're

00:49:43   18, you're basically a young adult, and you're off to college probably. So you've sort of,

00:49:50   you've grown up with iOS and you're familiar with iOS. Or maybe you're someone like me

00:49:55   who grew up with a traditional Windows computer that moved to a Mac, that moved to an iPad.

00:50:01   And so over the past almost a decade, eight to nine years, next April, you are familiar

00:50:10   with iOS at this point, and you are familiar with the limitations of iOS.

00:50:14   And there's that tension between these types of people and people who are still using computers,

00:50:21   are still using laptops and desktops, and they want iOS to work like their existing

00:50:30   Most of the day they use a laptop, they use a MacBook, they use a PC, and then when they

00:50:37   try an iPad, maybe because they have a review unit or maybe because they're just curious,

00:50:42   they get upset. And I get that. And I understand why. But if we follow this argument, imagine

00:50:51   me for example, I could make the same argument for macOS after so many years spent using

00:50:58   the iPad. When I use my Mac, and take that from somebody who's buying a new Mac Mini,

00:51:06   an expensive one, because I need it, but when I use my Mac, I'm annoyed by the fact that

00:51:11   I cannot touch the screen, I'm annoyed by the fact that it doesn't have the apps I want,

00:51:16   it doesn't have, you know, the same quality iOS apps that I'm used to on my iPad, it doesn't

00:51:22   have shortcuts, for example, it's got an automator which is so much worse, it doesn't, I'm not

00:51:28   I'm sorry, just an opinion.

00:51:30   - Sick Ben and Carian.

00:51:32   - It doesn't, my MacBook doesn't have a cellular connection.

00:51:36   I cannot hold the computer in my hands

00:51:38   and walk around to read the book or read an article.

00:51:41   And these are just some of the differences.

00:51:43   So I think it's important to consider that

00:51:45   those problems presented by the people

00:51:50   who are trying to switch from Mac to iOS are valid,

00:51:55   but also the opposite perspective is valid.

00:51:57   that I'm used to iOS and when I try something else, I'm annoyed because it doesn't behave like the touch OS that I'm used to.

00:52:05   And so I think it's interesting to have this discussion, but in a slightly different way.

00:52:09   So rather than just saying "Is iOS too simple?" or "Is iOS too limiting?"

00:52:14   which I think it's a generic statement that really doesn't nail the problem.

00:52:21   I think it would be more useful to have this different question.

00:52:24   Is the iPad a limited computer for switchers, for people who want to switch from a traditional

00:52:33   computer environment to iOS, to an iPad, to an iPad Pro?

00:52:38   And in this case, if we follow this slightly more nuanced question, I can see the problems,

00:52:44   right?

00:52:45   I can see the problems that iOS is facing, that the iPad is facing compared to a computer.

00:52:50   It's a bunch of small things and it's a bunch of big things.

00:52:53   things like, I don't know, easily renaming a file before sharing it, which you can only

00:52:58   do in the Files app or in a third-party app, which is insane.

00:53:01   Or like, even more than just that, like I have a file in Slack and I want to email it.

00:53:07   Well first, I have to save it to a cloud service.

00:53:09   Yeah.

00:53:10   Right?

00:53:11   Yeah.

00:53:12   It's insane that you still cannot natively create zip archives on iOS.

00:53:18   You need to use a third-party app for that.

00:53:22   shortcuts that are inconsistent, but these are small things, there's also

00:53:25   bigger problems, like the Files app is a very limited file manager

00:53:30   compared to the Finder, or there's no concept of windowing and opening

00:53:35   multiple tabs for the same app, there's no trackpad support, so you can

00:53:41   use an iPad with a third-party keyboard but you cannot use it with a third-party

00:53:44   mouse or trackpad, which I think is pretty problematic at this point,

00:53:49   And of course Mobile Safari still doesn't work well with a bunch of websites or

00:53:54   You know, you cannot watch 4k content on YouTube because Apple doesn't want to adopt VP9

00:54:00   And of course, there's despite the iPad having a USB C connector now

00:54:05   You cannot use a USB drive and browse your files in the app called files made by Apple

00:54:12   so I

00:54:15   think it's interesting to

00:54:18   to imagine whether Apple is facing this very problem of being unable to choose if they

00:54:31   want to please the iOS generation more, so the people who grew up with multi-touch, who

00:54:37   are used to multi-touch and don't want to have any extra complications, like they don't

00:54:42   want their iPads to be as complicated as a PC? Or do they want to please the people who

00:54:48   are using a PC and want to switch to iPads? This fork in the road for Apple, I think,

00:54:56   is what's going to be interesting to consider. Next year, with Marzipan, for example, and

00:55:02   the path of the Mac and the path of the iPad, this collision of these two generations of

00:55:08   people I think will be interesting. And then there's a second question, if you give me

00:55:14   five more minutes, that I want to touch upon. So after the question of "Is iOS too limiting?"

00:55:21   the question of "Can no professionals use iPads?" And that is even more interesting

00:55:28   for me because I am... what is a professional? I saw this tweet from Nilay Patel of The Verge,

00:55:36   who wrote an excellent review of the iPad Pro from the perspective of someone who doesn't

00:55:41   really use an iPad Pro on a daily basis, this is not sarcasm, I totally get Nilay's criticism

00:55:49   and we need more of these type of reviews. He said that the Verge review of the iPad

00:55:55   Pro couldn't have been made on an iPad Pro because of photographers, video editors, and

00:56:02   you know, a bunch of issues that the Verge team ran into when trying to get the work

00:56:07   done on iPad Pro. And I think that's totally valid, but also it captures perfectly the

00:56:14   current state of our discussion about computers and iPad Pros and iOS. On one hand, you got

00:56:22   the media, you have journalists, you have bloggers, you have video editors writing for

00:56:27   writing for blogs, for big publications, and they have workflows that have been

00:56:34   built over the years, they have CMSs that have been designed on desktop computers,

00:56:39   they require a PC. And those are, again, totally fine arguments, totally real

00:56:47   problems. But on the other, you have professionals who actually use iPads, who

00:56:54   actually use the iPad Pro. In the past year, since I started talking to people

00:57:00   who, in a section of our Club Maxories newsletter called "iPads around the world",

00:57:07   I set out to discover the ways that people use iPads. And I heard from

00:57:12   doctors. I heard from a doctor who operates in the Australian Outback and

00:57:19   and runs her business on an iPad Pro.

00:57:22   I heard from engineers, I heard from illustrators,

00:57:26   I heard from pastors and church groups,

00:57:29   I heard from scientists who use the iPad Pro for lab reports and 3D graphics,

00:57:34   I heard from pilots who use an iPad Pro for, what's it called, the flight maps.

00:57:40   Used to be this thick books, you know, very heavy book,

00:57:44   and now it's on an iPad Pro.

00:57:46   I heard from someone who oversees the marketing for Broadway productions, such as Hamilton.

00:57:57   It's wild the way that these different people from different parts of the world,

00:58:04   from, you know, with different jobs, real professionals are actually using the iPad Pro.

00:58:10   These people don't work in the media. You don't hear from these people.

00:58:14   These are the silent iPad audience, the silent iPad users that actually do get the work done,

00:58:20   really important work done, and you don't hear from them.

00:58:23   So this is the state of our discussion, is that what makes the iPad Pro a professional

00:58:32   tool?

00:58:33   This question, this problem, is being raised by professionals who work in media and often

00:58:40   don't have the kind of perspective of a doctor or an engineer or a pilot. And while I'm not

00:58:47   asking, I'm not saying that Eli Patel should know all of these people right, that's impossible

00:58:52   because I didn't know them either. I think it's important though to keep an open mind

00:58:55   when saying the iPad Pro is not a computer or the iPad Pro is not a professional tool.

00:59:00   I think it's important to keep an open mind and say well maybe there's someone who's actually

00:59:04   using it as such. So that's how I feel like I would like these publications to be more

00:59:12   open to that idea. And finally, I think that we can all agree on the fact that there are

00:59:20   objective problems, objective issues that Apple should fix. We mentioned them many times

00:59:25   on the show. Most importantly, I think Apple should incentivize developers to actually

00:59:31   make Pro apps to make not just the iPad companions but actually real versions of desktop apps

00:59:40   on the iPad. There's a whole list of things, right, like Apple should make their own Pro

00:59:44   apps, they should open up USB drive access, they should offer third-party backup APIs

00:59:52   to make actual stuff like backplays, for example, on an iPad Pro. There's a whole list of things.

00:59:58   But most importantly, I think this whole discussion, while there are objective problems, there

01:00:06   are also people who are actually using the iPad Pro as a professional tool.

01:00:10   We don't hear from them, so all we can do, I think, is try to keep an open mind, recognize

01:00:18   the problems, point out the problems, offer criticism because that's important, but also

01:00:25   Try and not discount the iPad as a toy because you wouldn't, you know, people who work in

01:00:30   Broadway, doctors and pilots, I don't think they see it as a toy.

01:00:35   That's my series of statements.

01:00:38   Thank you.

01:00:39   So I think one of the things that is interesting and important to add as a point to that, where

01:00:44   you're like, you know, like, we don't see these people so we shouldn't write it off.

01:00:48   I can understand how things could be written off if this was a completely absurd idea,

01:00:53   right?

01:00:54   Like, I'm sure there are professionals that use Palm pilots today.

01:00:58   Right. I was in the airport a couple of days ago and they were using a dot matrix

01:01:02   printer to print something. Right.

01:01:04   Like there are professionals still doing stuff, but that is absurd.

01:01:08   Right. That dot matrix printers are still being used in nearly 2020 is where we're at.

01:01:14   Right. But so like there are there are professionals everywhere that use all types of

01:01:19   weird edge case technology.

01:01:20   But I think that we shouldn't, I just don't think that anybody,

01:01:24   especially who works in and around technology should be of the assumption

01:01:29   that somebody could not get their work done on a powerful device like this.

01:01:33   Like, yes, there are issues, but like how many people's work,

01:01:37   a significant portion of their work is dealing with email.

01:01:41   Like you think you can't deal with all of your email and it's like general

01:01:46   communication amongst coworkers on an iPad.

01:01:48   Like, and that is a perfectly valid thing to use this device for.

01:01:53   And depending on the type of job that you're in, it may take up a massive part

01:01:57   of your time. Like, over 50% of my responsibilities, like individual

01:02:03   responsibilities, way over 50% of those are conducted on iOS.

01:02:06   When it comes to actually time spent at computing devices, I probably spend more

01:02:10   time in front of a Mac because the uninterrupted time of recording and

01:02:16   editing podcasts is longer time, but individual jobs, roles and responsibilities, I do more

01:02:22   of those in front of my iPad, as well as all of my just socialising time, right? Browsing

01:02:29   Twitter and all that kind of stuff. So it ends up being that I spend more time in front

01:02:33   of my iPad, but it's not all work is what I'm trying to say, right? So, you know, like,

01:02:38   and that's because the type of work that I'm doing is like communications work is kind

01:02:43   of been how I've been thinking about it or research and this device is perfect for that

01:02:48   in some cases it's better because the app support is better and they're more new and

01:02:53   it's more modern right and so this is just the thing it's like it's not an absurd thing

01:02:58   to assume that people were doing this which just surprises me that people get so you know

01:03:05   I got to see these tweets that are so like fixed in statement where it's like professionals

01:03:11   professionals can't use the iPad. Like, alright, maybe you can't in your job and that's totally

01:03:17   fine, right? But that's fine, but let's not be so presumptuous, especially when, if you

01:03:27   listen to podcasts, you know that there are people that do it, because you hear us. Like,

01:03:34   if you listen to the show, you can't say no professionals are using iPads, because...

01:03:40   I think you must have paid attention before.

01:03:42   I think some people honestly still believe that folks like you and I, we use the iPad to prove a point.

01:03:53   And if you think that...

01:03:55   What's the point that we're trying to prove?

01:03:58   I think there's some people that seriously still believe that.

01:04:02   Yeah. Like we made a decision and now we can't get out of it kind of thing.

01:04:07   Nobody's forcing me to use an iPad

01:04:09   Again, I'm buying a Mac Mini so

01:04:12   For important parts of our jobs, right? Also if I wanted to prove a point

01:04:19   I'm pretty sure the five years I would have proven my point

01:04:23   Hobble my entire workflow just to own some some jerk on Twitter like

01:04:30   Also, I

01:04:34   I'm not sure how I feel about this sentence that I've seen in many reviews. It's still an iPad

01:04:41   Okay, what if that's exactly what I want like for some people

01:04:47   The iPad still being an iPad is an important factor

01:04:52   There's people who if the iPad were to turn into a MacBook that would be a problem

01:04:58   so I

01:05:00   understand why

01:05:02   that

01:05:04   expression was used in many many reviews for these iPad pros.

01:05:08   I think it's important, again, keep an open mind. I try to consider the different perspective of someone saying,

01:05:15   "I want it to still be an iPad and not turn into a PC." Like,

01:05:20   "I want it to be a screen that I can attach and detach from a keyboard."

01:05:24   "I want it to, you know, have a SIM and cellular and all of these things."

01:05:27   "I don't want it to have a desktop OS on it. I want it to run iOS." So,

01:05:34   I would have liked to see more reviews from...

01:05:39   and I'm not saying this because I didn't have a review.

01:05:42   All right, let me say it then. Let me say it then because I tweeted it.

01:05:45   I tweeted it because I felt like I just had to say it because you weren't saying it.

01:05:49   I don't know why Apple think that their best PR strategy

01:05:56   is to not put this device in the hands of people that admittedly use them every single day.

01:06:03   Because if you do not use an iPad to get your work done every day, of course, if you use

01:06:11   it for four days, you are not going to find it a satisfactory experience.

01:06:17   Right?

01:06:18   No, not at all.

01:06:19   If you use a Mac to do whatever, if you have like a CMS, which does not play well with

01:06:25   iOS, like you are not going to be happy.

01:06:28   why when we make changes to our CMS at Relay FM, one of the top points is it has to work

01:06:33   on iOS because I need to use it, right? Like we have like drag and drop stuff on our CMS.

01:06:42   We have like the links that you see, they're added by this cool book, Marklet. I can drag

01:06:46   and drop them in a web browser because we need that because otherwise I would be very

01:06:52   upset.

01:06:53   So like...

01:06:54   Add them in the order you want.

01:06:56   No errors.

01:06:57   Yeah.

01:06:58   So, you know, so I understand, but it seems very perplexing to me that there are people

01:07:05   that have relationships with PR and Apple, like Federico, like Jason Snell, who admittedly

01:07:12   use iPads every single day, but neither Federico or Jason Snell got embargoed review units

01:07:19   to write a review on day one when the reviews came out.

01:07:22   And that is really weird to me because it puts the perception out into the world because

01:07:28   every review, except for John Gruber's that I read, read the same and they all made that

01:07:33   point, which again, very valid point.

01:07:36   But that's not a mix.

01:07:37   You know, like I really enjoyed John Gruber's review because he just didn't talk about this.

01:07:41   All right.

01:07:42   And my assumption would be because he knows, he knows how he feels.

01:07:45   He knows that everybody that reads his site knows how he feels.

01:07:49   He doesn't use iOS for work.

01:07:50   He might write on it, but he uses a Mac.

01:07:53   He is a Mac lover.

01:07:54   But he spoke about, and I loved his angle of just like, this machine is obsessively

01:08:00   powerful, like way more than it needs, way more than it's going to need.

01:08:05   But it just is because this is Apple kind of proving a point and showing what they can

01:08:09   do when they make the silicon and comparing that back to the all the Macs that were released.

01:08:15   Really interesting.

01:08:16   refreshing because it was different because the rest of them all focused heavily and all

01:08:21   the headlines were written. Like all of the headlines just were some variation of "yeah

01:08:28   but it's still not good enough" right? Like because I can't make Google Chrome my default

01:08:32   web browser. Like you know like I would love Google Chrome to be my default web browser

01:08:36   but it's not my residing point about what using iOS is like. So...

01:08:42   And the idea that I've seen some people on Twitter say well they haven't given... this

01:08:46   is a ridiculous argument. They haven't given iPad Pros to iPad enthusiasts. I always see

01:08:54   like some shade of like of sark of irony in that word enthusiast, but let's just use it

01:09:01   in the...

01:09:02   That's because you're an enthusiast, vlogger, right? That's your problem. You just can't...

01:09:04   That word is it brings up bad memories for Federico Vittucci.

01:09:06   I'm constantly cheering and clapping my head. What happened? I don't do that. I don't do

01:09:12   do that. This argument that Apple hasn't given review units to enthusiasts because those

01:09:21   people would have bought an iPad Pro anyway and instead Apple wanted fair criticism from

01:09:29   people who don't use iPads. But then you wouldn't give Jason Snow a Mac Mini for review either,

01:09:33   you under that logic.

01:09:35   This would be like if you were like a Hollywood company giving advanced screenings of your

01:09:45   new movie to people who are going to hate your new movie and are going to review the

01:09:49   movie and give it like one star. It doesn't make any sense.

01:09:53   That is a fundamental misunderstanding of what a PR strategy is, right? Like a PR strategy

01:09:57   is to get the best thing said about your product. And it's like Rick Allen said in the chat

01:10:03   the exact same thing. They gave Marco the Mac mini, right? Because they knew that this

01:10:07   thing they knew they had made a machine that he would like, right? Like, and they were

01:10:12   right. He likes that machine very much. You may know they did not give him a MacBook Air.

01:10:16   Yeah, but you know, Apple PR works in mysterious ways sometimes and it's totally fine. Like

01:10:21   I get it. Sometimes you get advanced access, sometimes you don't and it's okay. Because

01:10:28   ultimately I work for my readers. I don't work for Apple PR. So I got an iPad Pro.

01:10:35   I would actually say that for you it kind of doesn't matter in the sense of the traffic

01:10:40   to your website. Because whenever you write an article about this iPad, it's going to

01:10:43   get as much attention whether it was then or now. I genuinely believe that. Because

01:10:48   people want to know what you have to say because it's always going to be different. I personally

01:10:52   feel as well I prefer to read the non embargoed Federico Vittucci articles because you have

01:10:57   the amount of time that you want to think through everything rather than just writing

01:11:01   what a lot of what other people can write, which is like, here is what this device is

01:11:06   like, here are the specifications because there's only so much you can do in three days.

01:11:10   I was reminded of how the original Macintosh was reviewed. So I found this like roundup

01:11:15   post on fortune. How would you remember that? I was reminded how how were you reminded?

01:11:24   I have come across them before, I was not around.

01:11:27   - Okay, sure.

01:11:28   - And I remember the one because Dvorak

01:11:32   like made fun of the mouse,

01:11:33   and it looks like a big goofball in hindsight,

01:11:36   but if you read through these,

01:11:38   and granted this is like clipped

01:11:39   to like find the most egregious things,

01:11:43   there were complaints that Apple didn't understand

01:11:46   what people wanted,

01:11:47   or that Apple was forcing a vision on people

01:11:50   and they wouldn't be able to do real work on it.

01:11:51   I mean the Mac was considered a toy

01:11:54   by large numbers of people in the computing community

01:11:58   in the '80s because it had a mouse and a user interface.

01:12:03   Whereas the command line, this is not a real computer.

01:12:05   And we see how eventually everything became like the Mac.

01:12:10   Microsoft moved from MS-DOS to Windows,

01:12:14   and the world now, for a long time,

01:12:18   has run on computers with user interfaces.

01:12:20   I think there are strong parallels to the iPad.

01:12:23   people who, yes, like to your point,

01:12:26   there are people that the iPad is not for,

01:12:28   because the iPad hasn't reached certain milestones

01:12:31   that they need, right?

01:12:32   Look at something like app development.

01:12:34   If you're an iOS developer, you can't do that sort of work

01:12:37   on your iPad, maybe one day that'll change.

01:12:39   That was actually true of the Mac as well.

01:12:41   To write Mac software, you had to have a Lisa.

01:12:43   I was like, not a great look.

01:12:46   But the point is that we are still,

01:12:48   even though we're eight years in,

01:12:50   We are still in the first era,

01:12:54   maybe starting to see the second era

01:12:56   with like iOS 10, 11, and the multitasking stuff,

01:13:00   but we are in the beginning days of this platform still.

01:13:04   And that means that there are people that it works for

01:13:08   and there are people that it doesn't work for yet.

01:13:11   And as time moves forward, the number of people,

01:13:16   the types of things these devices can do will only expand.

01:13:19   Now we can have a conversation about the rate of expansion.

01:13:22   I think the three of us agree that Apple needs to move

01:13:24   more aggressively here, especially when the hardware

01:13:27   is so far ahead of the software.

01:13:29   This is just how products evolve.

01:13:32   You know, nothing, nothing, nothing in the world technology

01:13:37   is birthed fully formed, right?

01:13:39   Like the iPhone, the original iPhone was a joke

01:13:43   compared to what the iPhone, even what the iPhone 4

01:13:45   could do, and again, that was hardware and software.

01:13:48   and the iPad is on that same track,

01:13:51   again, moving probably too slowly,

01:13:53   but you are, in saying that you can't do your work

01:13:57   on an iPad, that may be totally true and legitimate

01:13:59   in someone else's life, but by saying that no one can do it,

01:14:03   you are projecting your situation onto other people.

01:14:08   And the truth is, there are people who could do their work

01:14:10   on a Macintosh in 1985, right?

01:14:13   And it actually started with people doing the types

01:14:17   the things that the two of you do on your iPad every day.

01:14:19   Yes, you weren't doing development.

01:14:21   Yes, you weren't doing crazy video production

01:14:24   like The Verge needs for their reviews.

01:14:26   But like, sort of lower hanging fruit tasks,

01:14:28   like the iPad was really good at in the beginning,

01:14:30   and then you slowly work up that chain

01:14:33   to more and more complex things.

01:14:35   And people just want to compare the Mac platform,

01:14:38   which is 34 years old, to the iPad platform that's eight.

01:14:42   That's an unfair comparison,

01:14:43   and anytime you draw that line that way,

01:14:46   The iPad will always come up short because it hasn't had the time to mature.

01:14:51   I think that historic context is important when talking about platforms.

01:14:56   It's one thing to talk about, "Oh, it has a USB-C port or it has Lightning.

01:14:59   What does that mean?"

01:15:00   But when we're talking about platforms, we're talking about what this thing is in the world,

01:15:05   you have to have that context because the iPad does not exist in a vacuum.

01:15:09   It exists in a world with PCs and Macs and iPhones and all these other things.

01:15:13   And as it finds its ground, you have to remember that that takes time and pouring cold water

01:15:20   on it too early, you're just you're doing yourself a disservice.

01:15:23   You're going to look like Dvorak saying that the mouse was a joke.

01:15:26   And we all know that how that turned out.

01:15:28   That's very good.

01:15:29   Thank you for that.

01:15:30   Because like that that historical context is refreshing and like consoling to me.

01:15:35   Honestly, it's like soothing my soul like that, that there are other people that have

01:15:40   been through this before me in the Apple ecosystem.

01:15:43   I wanted to share one last thing which I found very interesting.

01:15:47   I as I mentioned, I shared a thought on Twitter that like I agreed

01:15:51   with the criticism, but felt like Apple had done a disservice to the product,

01:15:56   basically by not giving these devices to people that use them every day

01:15:59   to to review them.

01:16:01   And I and I had there was lots of lots of replies.

01:16:05   I got to this and there were lots of different

01:16:08   opinions, but there were a couple of things that were caught

01:16:12   that I could I was seeing were happening an awful lot,

01:16:15   which I just found really interesting.

01:16:18   So like as well as the usual arguments, right, of iPads not being for professionals,

01:16:22   the people that like want to take the iPad hostage and be like,

01:16:26   I will not do anything until

01:16:29   I like I want to buy one, but I refuse to buy one until Apple updates iOS.

01:16:36   Right. Like this.

01:16:38   OK, like I agree with that, but like it's fine.

01:16:41   we don't all need to know but like whatever. But there was a there was a common argument which was

01:16:47   being levied at me. People were demanding of me to tell them why this iPad Pro was a meaningful

01:16:55   update. They wanted to know what features were new, they demanded to know what could be done on

01:17:00   this iPad that couldn't be done on previous iPads and that I had to basically prove this is the only

01:17:06   reason for why anyone would want to buy this device.

01:17:10   And I found this really interesting because this is not an argument that I ever see for

01:17:16   any other product.

01:17:18   When I talk about the iPhone, I do not have people saying to me, "What can you do on this

01:17:24   iPhone that you couldn't do on any other iPhone?

01:17:28   It is only worth it if there is something new that you can do."

01:17:32   And I find that so interesting. And I wonder where it's coming from. I wonder why it's

01:17:37   happening. There's always requirements for people that they want to try and justify a

01:17:41   purchase. I get that. But I never see this type of thing. Like, for example, the MacBook

01:17:47   Air. Or the Mac Mini. You can't do anything new on those devices. You can do some things

01:17:55   faster. You can do some things more efficiently. But the Mac Mini doesn't do anything that

01:18:00   old Mac Mini couldn't also do. But we're not saying that you must justify what is new that

01:18:08   can be accomplished via this Mac Mini for it to be a worthy purchase. And I found that

01:18:15   kind of fascinating that this was like you can you can go to the tweet and you can look

01:18:20   through the replies like I'm not blowing this out of proportion. This was a lot of people

01:18:24   for asking me this question or a version of this question. I will put it in our show notes

01:18:30   for you so you can see it. But it was kind of, it was very interesting to me because

01:18:37   I was wondering, I've never seen something like this before and I couldn't really work

01:18:40   out where this idea was coming from. I wonder if it's a combination of two things, the price

01:18:50   increase, which we talked about last week, but also the issue of iPad hardware advancing

01:18:57   at a different pace than software. So you get the beautiful new hardware, but the software

01:19:01   is the old one. And maybe that creates this annoyance in people of, "Well, I'm spending

01:19:10   more money on a thing that runs old software," if that makes sense.

01:19:15   Yep, I agree with that.

01:19:16   But again, like I feel like that there are like so all of the Macs

01:19:19   that have been that have been released are in this exact same boat.

01:19:23   They're all more expensive.

01:19:24   Yeah. And they all have the same version of Mac OS.

01:19:27   Mojave has been out for a bit.

01:19:29   You know, like the iPhones are the same because iOS, the version of iOS is out.

01:19:34   You know, like on.

01:19:35   So like, what do you want me to tell you? What?

01:19:36   Memoji? Like that's a thing, right?

01:19:38   Like, what do you want from me?

01:19:40   Like people, people get work worked up about the

01:19:45   the iPad. Always have, and probably always will be.

01:19:48   They always will, yep. And I think we know the reasons for that, right? Like, there are

01:19:52   people that just think it's stupid, there are people that think that it's killing what

01:19:55   they love, it's like this war of ideology, and it comes out in many different ways.

01:20:01   Being through these waves of iPad excitement and iPad criticism since 2012, that's when

01:20:10   I started seriously considering the iPad and in 2013 I switched. And it's probably, I think,

01:20:16   a couple years more than you, Myke. And I've seen it all. On each iPad announcement there's

01:20:24   the excitement of folks who really like the iPad, followed by a couple of weeks of this

01:20:29   type of criticism, and then it quiets down and works on the iPad, keeps working on the

01:20:34   iPad and every few months the argument reappears that the iPad is not a computer because somebody

01:20:41   writes a blog post and everybody starts to pile on. You know how it works in the Apple

01:20:45   community, right? Somebody writes something and suddenly it becomes a thing to discuss.

01:20:51   So this will be over again in a couple of weeks and I want to see what Apple does to

01:20:59   iOS 12.2 and 12.3, I do believe that some features like USB drive access shouldn't wait until iOS 13.

01:21:08   That's... it totally can be an iOS... a point update. And it should be a point update. Just make it a

01:21:14   destination in files. That's all people want, and it's something that Apple can do at a system level,

01:21:19   they don't need to work with developers, it can happen. So I want to see what happens in terms of

01:21:24   updates. But we've been through this before, it'll be over soon, it'll spark up again soon also,

01:21:31   but ultimately we just gotta have an honest conversation about what Apple needs to do on iOS.

01:21:37   Keep an open mind that some folks like working on a Mac, some folks like working on an iPad,

01:21:43   and we'll be fine. So that's my guiding light, if it helps. I've seen it before, it'll happen again,

01:21:51   But don't worry, it's going to be OK.

01:21:53   I want to talk about something now that bridges the Mac and the iPad,

01:21:59   and that is Luna Display, one of our final sponsor for this week's episode.

01:22:04   If you have a Mac and you have an iPad,

01:22:06   there is something missing in your setup, and that is Luna Display.

01:22:09   This is something that could change the way that you interact with your devices,

01:22:11   something that you'll be so excited to have in your life.

01:22:15   That is Luna Display.

01:22:16   Luna have given us maybe a little taste of the future

01:22:19   because they give you the ability to use your iPad as a wireless display for your

01:22:23   Mac that can also be interacted with touch.

01:22:26   You heard me right, the iPad and the Mac that you already own working harmoniously

01:22:30   together. Isn't that wonderful? Isn't that useful?

01:22:34   You can connect over Wi-Fi or USB. Boom. More screen real estate.

01:22:38   Just plug in a little piece of hardware into your Mac and you are good to go.

01:22:41   And that is what Luna Display is all about. It's wonderful.

01:22:43   This means you can have multiple screens even when you travel.

01:22:47   you so you've got your laptop right but you can have your iPad with you as well that's two screens

01:22:51   you don't have to lug around an extra monitor i mean that's like why would you who would want to

01:22:55   like take a like an extra monitor and like a backpack you know go i got my laptop i'm on the

01:23:00   train let's get the monitor out no we don't want to do that but you can use your macbook you can

01:23:04   use your ipad together perfectly and don't just take my word from it like there lunar has been

01:23:10   reviewed greatly everywhere tech crunch described the visual fidelity as frankly stunning apple

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01:23:36   at checkout our thanks to lunar display for their support of this show and relay fm.

01:23:41   So Steven, can we just like talk about CarPlay or something? Can we just do that now?

01:23:47   I do talk about CarPlay. Thank you.

01:23:48   Because I had a lot of questions about this. So I recently bought a pickup truck,

01:23:54   which I just want to gloss over with the two of you.

01:23:55   That's all we need to say about that. And it's a Toyota and it had Toyota's

01:24:02   like entertainment center screen in it. They call it Intune, I believe. And to call it a dumpster

01:24:10   fire is being generous to actual dumpsters that are on fire.

01:24:14   It's just really bad.

01:24:16   It has this fun thing where if you would use Siri

01:24:20   or if you got a phone call and music was playing,

01:24:22   sometimes it would just reboot.

01:24:24   Like it was like, "Oh no, too many things are going on, ah!"

01:24:26   And then it's like, your head unit would just restart

01:24:29   while you're driving down the road,

01:24:30   which is very concerning.

01:24:32   And I just wasn't happy with it.

01:24:34   And so I did a little research and this particular truck,

01:24:37   It's got a standard double-din head unit,

01:24:42   which means you can basically slot in another head unit

01:24:45   with a little bit of work.

01:24:47   So I did some homework, and I ended up with the,

01:24:49   we'll put a link to this in the show notes,

01:24:51   but I ended up with the Sony XAV-AX100,

01:24:56   which is just rolls--

01:24:58   - Oh, I know that one so well.

01:25:00   - Rolls right off the--

01:25:02   - Yeah, that's the best one.

01:25:03   - It's my favorite one, really.

01:25:05   It probably is actually.

01:25:08   - Why can't Sony name their products?

01:25:11   Why do they have such a problem with naming products?

01:25:14   - You tell me, I bought the headphones.

01:25:17   I don't know how to name these headphones.

01:25:20   I don't know how to describe them to my friends.

01:25:23   I just say, I got the latest Sony USB-C headphones

01:25:27   because their name is something ridiculous

01:25:29   like MX-AC something 3000.

01:25:32   I don't know.

01:25:33   It's just a bunch of numbers and letters.

01:25:35   - It's ridiculous.

01:25:37   I will say, this is not a plug,

01:25:39   it's just the site that I went to.

01:25:41   Crutchfield, like if you're interested

01:25:42   in doing this sort of stuff,

01:25:43   you can plug in what car you have

01:25:46   and what you wanna do and they like,

01:25:47   this is the head unit, this is all the wiring you need.

01:25:49   It was really easy, I just ordered everything from them.

01:25:52   Actually the head unit I got as an open box return

01:25:56   at Best Buy 'cause it was a bunch of money off,

01:25:58   which was cool.

01:25:59   But, so I went with the Sony.

01:26:01   It is a wired CarPlay unit.

01:26:03   So CarPlay will work with wired and there are a couple of options for wireless CarPlay.

01:26:10   If you're doing this aftermarket like I did, you're going to pay twice as much for the

01:26:15   wireless CarPlay.

01:26:17   The reviews I read for the couple that were compatible with my vehicle, the reviews were

01:26:22   pretty hit or miss for something you're going to spend $700 or $800 on.

01:26:25   Yeah, wired and wireless is like plugging the iPhone into a cable that goes into the

01:26:30   car somewhere, right?

01:26:31   Yes.

01:26:32   Yeah, yeah.

01:26:33   I have mine just right by the gear shift.

01:26:35   And it's totally fine because I'm going to plug my phone in any way

01:26:39   to charge it.

01:26:40   So wired car plate is totally fine.

01:26:43   I didn't see the need to spend twice as much and then plug in my phone

01:26:48   anyways to charge it.

01:26:49   So yeah, so I have a USB cable.

01:26:52   And here's a top tip.

01:26:55   If you use a lightning cable in your car, the Apple ones, for whatever reason,

01:26:59   I've always had them really fall apart in the car,

01:27:01   I think because of the heat.

01:27:03   And so I switched to the Amazon Basics one,

01:27:06   has like a cloth wrapped lightning cable,

01:27:09   and I've never had one of those fail in a car.

01:27:11   They're great.

01:27:12   - Because it wouldn't melt, right?

01:27:13   - Mm-hmm.

01:27:15   They got several colors, I got a gray one,

01:27:16   whatever, it's fine.

01:27:17   So I gotta plug the phone in, and then carplay happens.

01:27:20   The other thing that I got,

01:27:22   I heard a little bit about this unit,

01:27:23   is that it is a resistive touchscreen,

01:27:26   so it's not capacitive.

01:27:28   - Oh no.

01:27:28   (laughing)

01:27:29   No, bad, bad screen.

01:27:31   (laughing)

01:27:32   Get out, get out.

01:27:34   - One, what was in the truck was resistive,

01:27:37   and two, it is by far, this particular head unit

01:27:41   that I put in, by far the most responsive

01:27:45   resistive touchscreen I've used.

01:27:46   Again, you can find them with better screens,

01:27:49   but again, you're gonna pay a lot more.

01:27:51   - Let me ask you, let me ask you real quick,

01:27:52   I wanna try and put this in context, right?

01:27:55   The most, what is the most responsive resistive touchscreen

01:27:59   actually like, though? - I mean, that's a low bar,

01:28:02   But it's, like, so, CarPlay, and then like the OS that's on the unit itself, there are

01:28:08   several places like you could scroll and not just tap buttons, and like it's perfectly

01:28:14   responsive.

01:28:15   It's fine.

01:28:16   And like, whatever, it's in a car.

01:28:17   - Would you say it's better than a Nintendo DS?

01:28:20   - I don't know if I have enough experience with a Nintendo DS to say.

01:28:24   - Your kids have 'em.

01:28:25   - No, no they don't, they're iPads.

01:28:27   - They, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they,

01:28:28   they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they,

01:28:29   they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they,

01:28:30   kids today they don't understand gaming consoles. I think you once sent us a picture of your

01:28:35   kids playing with a 3DS. Not my kids. We have a Wii, but then no 3DS. Oh, you have a...

01:28:43   well isn't the Wii resistive? No, we have the original Wii. Oh, not the Wii, you didn't

01:28:49   have the Wii U. No one should have the Wii U. Hey-o! Some people do. Some people do.

01:28:58   do real work on a Wii U. So it's fine. But the big reason I went with this unit...

01:29:02   You can't do really anything on the Wii U. Never could. Junk. Sorry.

01:29:07   Poor Wii U. Federico and Myke have a game podcast called

01:29:13   "Remaster" you should go listen to for more Nintendo hot takes.

01:29:15   We don't dunk on the Wii U as much as we used to. We used to a lot. Like a lot before the

01:29:20   Switch. Kickin' a man when he's down, right? It was very bad. We developed this whole theory

01:29:25   about how bad Nintendo's marketing team was. It was like a whole scene.

01:29:28   So the reason I went with this is because the Sony XAVAX100 has a physical volume button

01:29:37   and 9 out of 10 aftermarket carplay head units do not come with a volume button. They have

01:29:44   like a little slider or you have to go into a menu and I wanted just a physical volume

01:29:50   I know that seems wild, but this one had it and it had good reviews and it was in the

01:29:55   budget, so I went with it.

01:29:58   I like having a physical volume button.

01:30:01   So do you not have volume controls in your steering wheel?

01:30:05   I do.

01:30:06   And so part of this is if you do one of these aftermarket you have to be really careful.

01:30:10   That's why I recommend going to someplace like Crutchfield.

01:30:13   Because they can walk you through, you need to do this wiring if you want your steering

01:30:17   wheel controls to work.

01:30:19   And in my Tacoma, the volume buttons on the steering wheel do work with the very elaborate

01:30:28   wiring I had to do.

01:30:30   But it's nice to be able to just reach up and turn it down.

01:30:34   But if your car doesn't have volume buttons, then this is your, you're stuck with.

01:30:40   And so I did install it myself.

01:30:41   There are a couple Instagram pictures that I'm pretty proud of because it looks like

01:30:45   the inside of my truck just sort of vomited all of its innards out, but it all works.

01:30:50   I like getting my hands dirty, and it's expensive to have this work done. I figured I got a

01:30:54   couple hours on a Sunday afternoon, and now I'll listen to a podcast and do a bunch of

01:30:59   wiring in my driveway. So it all worked.

01:31:03   That first photo is a little scary looking if you get nervous around wires. Don't look

01:31:10   at that first image.

01:31:12   warning for wires. It is very bad. It's just the insides of a car.

01:31:18   It's a lot of stuff. But it all works. It all buttoned up pretty nicely. And this is

01:31:24   my first experience with CarPlay. The only other time I've even ever seen it is I think

01:31:29   last year John Voorhees picked me up at the airport in Chicago and his car has CarPlay.

01:31:35   And that's the only time I've ever seen it. Like, John, I poked at his dashboard for a

01:31:39   a minute and then he got annoyed that I was doing it and maybe stop but it's

01:31:43   it's interesting so the Sony and all these aftermarket ones they have their

01:31:47   own I'm gonna call it an operating system we're like it can do phone calls

01:31:51   and Bluetooth and the backup camera it has all that sort of to itself and car

01:31:58   play is like a mode that the unit goes into so if you plug your phone in and a

01:32:02   carplay button shows up on the screen and you tap that and then you're in car

01:32:06   play. does that make sense? yeah it does. my favorite actually is because I'm

01:32:10   adding your photos to our show notes, I really find it funny that the finished

01:32:14   picture is not actually in the CarPlay interface. I find that so funny like why

01:32:19   didn't you open the CarPlay interface? yeah I don't know. Why did you do that? I don't understand.

01:32:24   Because I've been putting tiny wires together for like six hours. I do have... yeah so we'll get to the

01:32:32   CarPlay interface itself, but I really kind of like that image because it shows

01:32:37   what I'm talking about. The CarPlay is just an app on this thing. Yeah, yeah, it's

01:32:40   there. So I plug the phone in. iOS has a setting where you can change, if you can

01:32:45   say does my phone need to be unlocked or not. So my wife drove it the other night

01:32:48   and her iPhone 8, like it wouldn't work and so she had to unlock her phone first.

01:32:52   So I turned that off on my XS Max. I could sort of plug it in to be done. There's

01:32:56   hardly any settings for CarPlay itself. Basically the only thing you get is what

01:33:00   apps appear in what order. So there's a screenshot of this in the show notes

01:33:04   where, you know, CarPlay is really interesting to me like from a platform

01:33:08   perspective because Apple like you have to be allowed to write a CarPlay app

01:33:13   right like you can't just just do it and you have to have all these special

01:33:19   permissions and so for me on my phone just you know with what I have to sell

01:33:23   to my phone because I own a podcast company I have a lot of podcast clients

01:33:27   I was like, you can install six different podcast apps.

01:33:30   But you can control what goes on the home screen

01:33:34   and what order it's in.

01:33:36   And so you can see how I have mine set up there

01:33:39   with the only third party apps are Google Maps and Overcast.

01:33:42   And CarPlay is like, it's weird.

01:33:46   It is an extension of what's on the phone.

01:33:50   So like the closest analogy I could think of,

01:33:53   and it's not a good one so forgive me,

01:33:54   but if you think about your running Keynote

01:33:56   and you have your slides on your iPad or Mac screen,

01:33:59   and then you have what's going on in the projector, right?

01:34:02   And the Mac or iPad screen is controlling

01:34:05   what's on the projector, right?

01:34:06   I think that makes sense.

01:34:08   CarPlay is kind of like that,

01:34:10   so if I am using CarPlay to listen to Overcast,

01:34:15   so I have connected and this episode up on the screen,

01:34:19   and I pull into my driveway, I put the truck in park,

01:34:22   everyone's safe, and I pick up my phone to open Slack,

01:34:25   Overcast will disappear from the CarPlay screen

01:34:29   and it will go back to the springboard.

01:34:30   It'll just go back to that grid of icons.

01:34:33   But if I went into Messages on my phone,

01:34:35   the Messages UI would show up on CarPlay.

01:34:37   So they're linked in a weird way.

01:34:41   And in a way, I kind of like that

01:34:43   because it's like if I pick up my phone

01:34:46   when I shouldn't in my car, it's like a reminder

01:34:49   because the app that I was listening to music

01:34:51   or the navigation goes away.

01:34:52   And so it's linked in a way,

01:34:54   it kind of feels fragile at times,

01:34:56   but it's an interesting relationship

01:34:58   that I just wasn't aware of,

01:34:59   'cause again, I had only really used this one time

01:35:01   for like 10 minutes, so.

01:35:03   The phone and CarPlay are linked in a way

01:35:06   that takes a little getting used to.

01:35:09   But what's really nice about this

01:35:11   is that your car suddenly becomes aware

01:35:15   of what's happening on your phone.

01:35:16   So you get an iMessage,

01:35:17   you get a little banner on the CarPlay display,

01:35:19   and if you tap it, you do not see the text.

01:35:24   CarPlay will not ever show you what's being sent to you

01:35:28   in iMessage, nor will it show you a keyboard to respond.

01:35:30   It will read the message to you,

01:35:33   it will ask you if you want to reply,

01:35:34   and then you can reply.

01:35:35   It's all done by voice.

01:35:38   So I had to run a microphone so it would hear me,

01:35:42   because the built-in system, like that microphone,

01:35:46   doesn't work with anything else,

01:35:47   so you have to run your own mic.

01:35:49   And I can just, Siri can just read me my messages,

01:35:52   And if I'm on the home screen,

01:35:55   the messages icon gets a badge

01:35:57   so I can see how many iMessages are there waiting for me,

01:36:01   which is a nice touch.

01:36:03   And it's actually pretty seamless to deal with iMessage.

01:36:06   In fact, there have been a couple times talking to y'all

01:36:09   where I've just had conversations with you

01:36:12   when I'm stuck in traffic via Siri.

01:36:14   And unless Siri just butchers what I say,

01:36:17   you would probably never know.

01:36:19   And I think that's a pretty nice feature,

01:36:21   one that I've never had in a car before because before this I said like a

01:36:24   Bluetooth connection to stream audio so it's nice to have that stuff but it's

01:36:29   really done in a way that's not distracting like if you don't deal with

01:36:31   that banner it just goes away on its own and you know there's there waiting for

01:36:36   you when you want to deal with them it's never super invasive into your driving

01:36:39   experience which is good. So how do you find yourself like interacting with it

01:36:47   all the time. Do you have to dictate everything to Siri? Like, you know, you doing that or

01:36:53   are you kind of just like, you'll get typically would you just get a message and leave it

01:36:58   or like are you finding yourself talking to Siri and then when you do that, is it through

01:37:03   the car or is it through the phone? Like how does that work?

01:37:06   Yeah, I do. I am finding myself talking to Siri a lot more than I thought it would. And

01:37:10   again, this is new. I've only had this in a couple weeks. So you know, maybe I'm still

01:37:13   in the honeymoon phase. But if I get a message from somebody, so like the other

01:37:17   day my dad and I were going back and forth and I had to go run an errand, like

01:37:20   we just kept the conversation going when it was, you know, convenient for me to do

01:37:25   so. And, you know, for like maps and other stuff you can you can use your voice to

01:37:31   say, "Hey, I want to go here." But messages is by far the most interactive thing. You

01:37:36   past that, I'm using Siri to play music. Most of the time, even like with

01:37:44   Overcast, I'm just doing it on the screen. One thing that's really annoying and I

01:37:48   don't know if this is CarPlay or if it's Overcast or if it's iOS 12 point

01:37:53   whatever beta I'm on, but say that I've been playing Overcast just on my phone

01:37:58   speakers in my kitchen. I walk out to my driveway and get in my truck, turn the

01:38:01   key, plug the phone in, music will take over. Overcast will not resume

01:38:05   automatically like it does over a Bluetooth connection which I find

01:38:09   infuriating because most of the time I just want to pick up the podcast I was

01:38:12   just listening to so then I'm going into overcast and finding it but Siri is

01:38:17   definitely like the main interaction for me at least because there's there's

01:38:22   actually kind of no other way to do it right there's no there's no way to you

01:38:28   can go through the menus of music and stuff but if you want to deal with

01:38:30   messages it's it's all Siri and again that's through the microphone that I

01:38:33   installed it's up like on the a pillar by the windshield and it hears me great

01:38:38   if I had some some some phone calls with it and like it sounds great and so the

01:38:43   phone like the whole time the phone is just you know in the console off you

01:38:49   know the screens off it's not doing anything unless I pick it up it is just

01:38:53   acting as the brains of the whole operation I mean are you surprised about

01:39:00   about any of this or is it kind of working

01:39:02   as you would expect it to work or like require it to work?

01:39:06   Like are you finding yourself being like,

01:39:08   oh, that's really nice or is it kind of just like,

01:39:10   yep, that's what it should?

01:39:12   - Yeah, I think it does what it should.

01:39:14   I think it seems really solid.

01:39:16   It does some clever things where like in music,

01:39:20   you know, on the iOS, you would like,

01:39:22   you get the scrubber down the right hand side

01:39:24   to like skip down to S for, you know,

01:39:26   a band that starts with S or, you know,

01:39:27   or like whatever letter you want

01:39:29   without just scrolling and scrolling and scrolling.

01:39:31   So that doesn't necessarily translate well

01:39:33   to these type of touch screens.

01:39:35   And so on CarPlay, if you do that,

01:39:38   it pulls up a grid and you just tap the letter you want.

01:39:40   So they've adapted the UI in places where it makes sense.

01:39:44   In fact, there's a virtual home button on the screen

01:39:47   to go back to the home screen,

01:39:48   which is sort of funny because no new devices

01:39:51   have home buttons.

01:39:52   It's like this visual virtual representation

01:39:55   of a thing that isn't really a thing anymore.

01:39:58   But I would say it's pretty solid.

01:40:01   It's weird that if you go to the home screen on your phone,

01:40:04   CarPlay goes to its home screen,

01:40:05   I wish there was some division of labor there,

01:40:07   but other than that, I've been really happy with it

01:40:11   and I think it's definitely way safer

01:40:16   if I wanna deal with messaging when I'm driving

01:40:19   than obviously than picking up the phone,

01:40:21   which is like a terrible, dangerous thing

01:40:23   that you shouldn't do, but most of us are guilty of it.

01:40:26   And this has definitely basically cut that out.

01:40:29   Like I don't, like even at stoplights,

01:40:32   I have not like picked up my phone.

01:40:33   Again, I know I shouldn't,

01:40:34   please don't badger me about that.

01:40:36   But I know that people just do that and--

01:40:40   - There is also an argument

01:40:41   that you shouldn't even be dictating messages, right?

01:40:44   Like that is an argument. - Probably.

01:40:45   - 'Cause it's like attention and stuff.

01:40:46   I don't know. - Yeah.

01:40:48   - I don't know what I think about that.

01:40:49   I'm sure there's a lot of interesting studies,

01:40:51   but like, but yeah.

01:40:52   I've really got a point to that.

01:40:55   And I can use Google Maps everywhere, which is great.

01:40:58   - I'm jealous, I really wanna have car play in my car

01:41:00   and just listening to you, it made me more jealous, so.

01:41:04   - Well you know what you have to do.

01:41:05   - There's nothing I can do.

01:41:06   - Go to Crutchfield or whatever that is.

01:41:08   - Nope, nope, I'm not gonna have car vomit in my car.

01:41:11   - Oh man, I tell you what, when your Mac Mini gets in.

01:41:15   - Not doing it.

01:41:16   - Bring me out and I'll set up your desk,

01:41:20   feel nice and neat, and I'll do your car.

01:41:22   What is have like a day of wires together?

01:41:24   you're like you're like the wire man should be your new title

01:41:29   Steven Hackett is the wire man you know how they do like yeah he gets pretty bad

01:41:34   in season four

01:41:37   I started like cable manage appliances or like things that shouldn't be cable

01:41:44   managed yeah it all goes wrong all of your characters get get like just messed

01:41:49   stuff at that point. I will say connected audience I will be 100%

01:41:55   disappointed if by next week's episode there's not a poster of this.

01:42:00   The Wire Man seems like a movie poster that someone

01:42:04   someone should make so slide into my DMS anytime. Is that it? Yeah I think so.

01:42:12   Are we done? A bunch of stuff this week it was fun we talked about Max from 1995

01:42:18   And we talked about carplay and then I sort of blacked out in the middle so it's a good show

01:42:23   If you want to find links to the stuff we talked about head over to relay.fm slash connected slash

01:42:29   217 while you're there you can get in touch with us via email or

01:42:34   You can do it you can find us on what are we going to be found this week? We found on Instagram again?

01:42:39   Yeah, I'm published. I put a link to this in the show notes

01:42:43   I was putting loads of stuff on my Instagram stories about me unboxing my two iPads

01:42:47   and I saved a story highlight of it so you can go and watch it. It's fun I think.

01:42:52   I also want to be discovered on Instagram with my real username not John Borjes. I'm

01:42:58   actually BTT on Instagram too. I forgot that you did that. So it's still V-I-T-I-C-C-I

01:43:05   there as well. I am not John Borjes. He's a different person. So you can find Myke on

01:43:10   on Instagram as I am YKE and you can find me there as Steven M Hackett for

01:43:16   reasons. Do not look up Steven's... No it's better now. I don't know they blocked me so I don't know.

01:43:24   So yeah find us on Instagram and you can find the show notes and I think our

01:43:29   sponsors Squarespace, Simple Contacts and Luna Display for making this week's show

01:43:33   possible and I'm gonna be out next week but the two of you will be back so until

01:43:39   Until then, say goodbye gentlemen.

01:43:41   - Adios, El Chirio.

01:43:42   - Cheerio.