0:00:00(upbeat music)
0:00:02- Hello and welcome to Connected, episode 200.
0:00:11Today is July 11th, 2018.
0:00:13I'm your host, Stephen Hackett,
0:00:15and I am not joined by either of my regular co-hosts.
0:00:19We'll get into that in a second,
0:00:21but I have two very special guests with me.
0:00:23First, I wanna introduce Casey Liss,
0:00:25newly minted free agent, podcaster, video maker, working on a secret app that he told
0:00:34me we can't talk about.
0:00:35Casey, how are you?
0:00:36Hello, I'm doing well, thank you.
0:00:37I think you did not give proper accolades to this being episode 200.
0:00:42I think this is a big deal.
0:00:44We should recognize that.
0:00:46And myself and our as-yet-unnamed guest host, we have worked very hard for you to reach
0:00:51200 episodes, and you're welcome.
0:00:52It's all built on the work you've all done.
0:00:55We're joined also by Jon Voorhees.
0:00:56Jon, of course, is over at MaxStories.net and develops a couple of apps including Blink
0:01:03and Associate.
0:01:04If you check those out, we'll put those links in the show notes.
0:01:06Jon, how are you?
0:01:07Jon Voorhees, Jr.
0:01:08Ciao, Stephen.
0:01:09I have to channel my good friend, Mr. Viticci, since he's not here.
0:01:14I'm doing really well.
0:01:15It's good to talk to you.
0:01:17Thanks for having me.
0:01:18Yeah, thank you all for joining me.
0:01:21It's been a hectic week.
0:01:22I've been in the United States for about 18 hours, so we're just gonna see how this goes.
0:01:27But we start the show not with complaining about how tired we are, but about follow-ups.
0:01:33You remember a couple of episodes ago, Federico was having trouble with his MacBook Pro.
0:01:39He installed macOS Mojave.
0:01:41All of us freaked out and told him he couldn't use that to record podcasts on, so he put
0:01:45High Sierra on, trying to dual boot, and he got stuck trying to boot back into High Sierra.
0:01:50And I gave him some help on the show,
0:01:53none of which actually helped.
0:01:55But it's sometimes with the Mac,
0:01:56it's the simple things that fix the issues.
0:02:00And a simple NVRAM reset got him booting into High Sierra.
0:02:04Again, a couple people had suggested that.
0:02:06I wish I had thought of it since it's like
0:02:08Mac troubleshooting 101, but there you go.
0:02:11So he's dual booting.
0:02:13But John, I understand that his Mojave situation
0:02:17really touched you in a personal way.
0:02:19It really did. I mean, it was funny to listen to you guys talk about it because I didn't realize
0:02:24exactly the full extent of the story that was going on. I had no idea that you were helping him
0:02:29with this partition, but we'll talk about it in a little bit. But we're doing some special coverage
0:02:36of the App Store anniversary this week over on MacStories, and part of that is a series of
0:02:40interviews that we're doing on AppStories. And five minutes before we were about to record an
0:02:45interview with somebody, I got a text from Federico about the situation with Mojave and
0:02:50how he wasn't going to be able to, he wasn't sure if his MacBook was going to work. This
0:02:54was probably five minutes before we started recording and about an hour before you and
0:02:59Myke and Federico started recording Connected. So it was a little stressful. I actually happened
0:03:05to be out of town at the time visiting my parents' vacation house and I was a little
0:03:09worried about my setup. Turns out his setup and the risks he was taking was far greater
0:03:14than the risks I was taking. But fortunately it all worked out in the end and we got our
0:03:18interview and everything was fine. But yeah, it's a little dicey doing that. I do not have
0:03:24it on a production machine. I have it on a spare Mac Mini at home.
0:03:27Nice. Aren't all Mac Minis spare computers at this point?
0:03:31They are.
0:03:32Are they even computers anymore? I mean, it's up for debate.
0:03:35The hand crank in the back really.
0:03:37Right.
0:03:38That makes you sad.
0:03:39So I've come home, I've decided to put iOS 12 on my iPhone 10.
0:03:44I just installed it this morning.
0:03:46I put it on my iPad actually during my trip to the UK and it's been fine.
0:03:51So I'm going to keep an eye on that.
0:03:53I think we'll keep checking in on iOS 12 as the summer goes along.
0:03:58But so far it seems really stable and Mojave – I feel like people have this conception.
0:04:08want to see the two of you think about it that after a few betas it's fine to put a
0:04:12new iOS beta like on your phone and all of us have done it lots of people are
0:04:17doing it with the public beta but with Mac OS there's still the I mean John you
0:04:22basically said is like don't put it on a production machine and that's what I
0:04:25tell people that's what I recommend people kind of live by and I think it's
0:04:31It's just because the Mac still for most people is where more complex work happens.
0:04:39And I know my normal two hosts would argue with that.
0:04:42But like audio and video production, no one's really doing that on an iPad, not at scale
0:04:49like they do on the Mac.
0:04:51And I think, you know, Mac OS is older, it's more complicated, it's got more things going
0:04:55on.
0:04:56And so I still feel like that journal advice is okay, like don't put a Mac OS beta on a
0:05:01production machine ever probably but at least wait until late in the summer but
0:05:07iOS like I feel like we feel like we're going to take more risk is that still
0:05:13true is it because iOS is more exciting than Mac OS what do you think Casey I
0:05:18would say that I don't typically put betas on my hardware I have never run in
0:05:25a Mac OS beta ever and I have gone back and forth on iOS betas I did just
0:05:30install the iOS beta on my iPhone when I returned home from the UK.
0:05:34Geez, it feels like 13 weeks ago, but it was actually Monday night, and we're recording
0:05:38this midday Wednesday.
0:05:41And the reason I did that is because I really wanted to play with Memojis and some of the
0:05:44other features that are in iOS 12.
0:05:47For example, I just used the "Do not disturb until the end of your calendar" appointment
0:05:53for this very podcast recording, which is super cool.
0:05:56I have definitely been burned by running iOS betas in the past like particularly I think it was iOS 5 where
0:06:01notification center debuted which was a train wreck and
0:06:04Many of us made the mistake at WWDC of putting that on and it was a disaster and I deeply regretted it
0:06:10I wanted to put this beta on for a long time
0:06:13But I resisted until after I came back from our mutual international trip because of all the things I want in the world to go
0:06:20Wrong is you know having my carry phone?
0:06:23Not operating properly while I'm overseas and not really in a position to do anything about it
0:06:27That is not on my list of fun and exciting times that that is I don't remember the t.g
0:06:32Scales negative end, but that is the whatever the opposite of best. I love you is that that's what that's a nightmare
0:06:37Yes, that is that perfect. That is a nightmare scenario
0:06:40So I waited until I got home and so far over the course of a day. It seems like it's going well
0:06:46I wouldn't say it seems any faster than iOS 11, but it certainly hasn't been murdering my battery
0:06:52Everything seems to be working approximately correctly.
0:06:55So all seems basically well, but as general advice
0:06:58I would say never install a Mac OS beta on anything that you that you need to use for any reason and
0:07:05I would strongly advise
0:07:08against doing any iOS betas unless you really are prepared to have a phone that's either physically warm or has poor battery life or
0:07:16Something doesn't work properly. Yeah, I think I think that makes sense the
0:07:20There's also the the idea of like if something goes wrong, how do you roll back right and then and both?
0:07:26systems
0:07:28Both on Mac and iOS it's difficult to like get your data back to an old OS because your backups
0:07:35Kind of get rolled into the new OS so you can't really like restore time machine or it gets funny, right?
0:07:42You always have in your back pocket
0:07:43I'm gonna need to rebuild this from zero and I haven't had to do that in a long time
0:07:48but it's unpleasant when it occurs.
0:07:50Yeah, I feel too like on the Mac that there's more legacy software and things that use funky,
0:07:56sometimes private APIs for instance. I think Audio Hijack does that. And something like that,
0:08:02I feel like is more likely to break than something on iOS. Even so, I'm pretty careful with iOS too.
0:08:08Usually I'll put it on an iPad because I feel the same way as I think you guys do,
0:08:13where I really want my carry phone to be solid all the time. But this year with the MiMoji,
0:08:17emoji, I just had to do it and I put iOS 12 on my carry phone before we even left San
0:08:24Jose. But I've left my iPad alone because I wanted to have at least one solid device
0:08:32where I could do some writing without having crashes and stuff. Unlike a lot of people,
0:08:37I know a lot of people have had the iOS 12 beta be really solid for them, it was great
0:08:41for me in beta one, but beta two, I was getting at least a dozen springboard crashes every
0:08:46single day. It's much better with Beta 3, but it was pretty tough there for a few weeks
0:08:50leading up to our trip to the UK.
0:08:52Another funny thing about that was when we were all in the UK, I don't remember who it
0:08:56was, but somebody was lamenting that, "Oh, I shouldn't have put the Beta on because my
0:08:59GPS is all out of whack and it's telling me I'm five streets over from where I'm actually
0:09:05standing." And it was deeply amusing to me to hear that because I noticed that GPS coverage
0:09:10in London is just crummy, apparently. And I've heard similar things from other big cities
0:09:14where there's just not really good line of sight to the satellites.
0:09:17And so my GPS coverage on iOS 11 was also terrible, which made it very challenging to
0:09:23navigate these old, old, old roads that were built long before there was, you know, the
0:09:28grid system that I'm used to in say Manhattan or something like that.
0:09:31So it was an adventure walking around London, but very, very fun, even on iOS 11.
0:09:37So we will keep checking in on the beta stuff.
0:09:39It's fun to keep track of it each summer.
0:09:43But we should take a break and congratulate Myke.
0:09:46Myke and Nadina got married this weekend.
0:09:50It was real honored to be there.
0:09:51All three of us were in London, and it was a real special time, so congratulations to
0:09:55the Hurley family.
0:09:56But that doesn't really explain where Federico is.
0:09:58We didn't just leave him at the reception.
0:10:00He's still there partying.
0:10:02John, where's Federico?
0:10:03Well, I don't know.
0:10:05If you maybe follow Federico on Twitter or Instagram, you might have seen some pictures
0:10:09of a Justin Timberlake concert.
0:10:11He got special VIP passes to the show.
0:10:15He was right up against the stage, and he had a connection with JT at one point.
0:10:22And Mr. Timberlake asked Federico to join his crew and be a roadie for the rest of the
0:10:26world tour.
0:10:27So Federico is taking the summer off to tour with Justin Timberlake, and will be back maybe
0:10:32sometime in the fall?
0:10:33I don't know how long this concert tour is going.
0:10:37Do you guys have any idea what he's up to these days?
0:10:40I think it goes through at least October so it's gonna be a while. The sick thing is with Federico
0:10:44I am not sure if that story is real or not because I could see it being completely real
0:10:49It's just no he really did befriend Justin Timberlake and next thing, you know, he's throwing caution to the wind and just following Justin on tour
0:10:57Tune in next week. He's left the show in good hands, you know, Myke and Myke and Federico
0:11:03They can go do their thing and just Casey you and I won't take care of things
0:11:06Sounds good to me. I
0:11:09I want to talk a little bit about the MacBook Pro keyboard repair program.
0:11:13We covered this a couple of weeks ago.
0:11:15And I have been talking with a few different people who manage like fleets of Macs.
0:11:21So these people work in like big, big companies.
0:11:25And you know, they're not purchasing like one or two Mac books at a time.
0:11:28They're purchasing 10, 25, 50, 100 Mac books at a time.
0:11:33And there had been a report about the the like repair rate for these MacBook Pros and
0:11:39the keyboards in particular, those numbers were reflected in the people I talked to managing
0:11:43these fleets that we're seeing more of these come back with keyboard issues.
0:11:48And so when Apple released the keyboard repair program details a couple of weeks ago, I reached
0:11:53back out to those sources and like, how does this make you feel?
0:11:57And one particular conversation is really interesting.
0:12:01And I want to share some some about that is that they've this person and their organization
0:12:07now felt that they could, and I'm putting this in quotes,
0:12:11safely buy the 2017 MacBook Pro knowing
0:12:14that they'll have four years of coverage for the keyboard.
0:12:19I don't know how often this organization
0:12:21rolls over their laptops.
0:12:23I believe it's like two to three years for some users
0:12:26and then longer for other users.
0:12:27So having that extra year really made them feel
0:12:31like it was a safer investment than
0:12:35three years of AppleCare Plus,
0:12:37or if you're in a situation like I was in
0:12:39where Apple tries to charge you for the keyboard
0:12:41and you have to make a scene to not be charged.
0:12:44(laughing)
0:12:46I still agree with Marco's point
0:12:47that this should probably be a five-year program.
0:12:50I think that these machines are out and around
0:12:55for a long time now.
0:12:57We were joking about the Mac Mini and stuff.
0:13:01People hold onto these machines
0:13:02and I think Apple should respect that.
0:13:05But I found that really interesting,
0:13:06that this kind of layers on some peace of mind
0:13:10for these types of purchasers.
0:13:12And it does make me wonder when the mid-2015
0:13:1815-inch laptops, the notebook that Marco and I both use,
0:13:20you can go buy it today for like two grand from Apple.
0:13:23It has ports and the old keyboard and a MagSafe connector.
0:13:27When that will stop being for sale.
0:13:29My thought is that it would stop being for sale
0:13:32when the, what seems like imminent,
0:13:36and we're gonna talk about this later,
0:13:37imminent MacBook Pro update, when that happens.
0:13:41But what do you guys think about this?
0:13:43I think both of you have pretty modern Mac notebooks,
0:13:46but if you didn't, would this repair program
0:13:48make you feel more comfortable about buying something?
0:13:51- You know, I don't think it would really,
0:13:52just because there's a hassle factor on top of this.
0:13:55I mean, it's nice that you can get these
0:13:57Mac keyboards replaced, but if you're administering
0:14:00large fleet of computers, you're still going to have to deal with the complaints of the
0:14:03users and returning them to Apple and doing all of that. And that's a lot of administrative
0:14:08overhead. I mean, I get that it's better to have it than not, but I don't think I would
0:14:14be entirely comfortable buying these computers in large quantities. I've got a 2015 still
0:14:20at home myself, but I use day to day a late 2016 MacBook Pro. And the keys do, I've never
0:14:28had a key stick and not be able to come unstuck, but they still do stick from time to time.
0:14:34It just happened a few days ago, you know, my S keys stopped working and I was able to
0:14:38jiggle it free and it was fine. But every time I see a speck of dust come anywhere near
0:14:43my computer, it starts making me shake.
0:14:46Yeah, I kind of feel the same way. I actually had at my jobby job the beloved 2015 MacBook
0:14:52Pro, Retina MacBook Pro that you and Marco love so darn much. So that got turned in,
0:14:57what was it, last week. And right now my home setup is a, what is this, a 2015 iMac? Thereabouts?
0:15:04Something like that. I don't even remember. It's been around a while. A late 2015 iMac.
0:15:07And then I have a MacBook, adorable, that I bought a little over a year ago. And I am in a position
0:15:16of privilege in the sense that I have two computers that are basically dedicated to me. So if this
0:15:22MacBook just decides to have a keyboard issue, and if I can't fix it myself, I still have an
0:15:27iMac at home. But that's a very, very recent thing for me. Like up until a couple years
0:15:31ago, I only ever had one computer and to be without a computer for several days while
0:15:37it's being shipped off to Tennessee or Kentucky or whatever it is that all these repairs happen
0:15:43and then wait for it to get repaired and come back like that's, that is not cool. And so
0:15:47yeah, that's wonderful that it's not something I have to pay for. But that is especially
0:15:52if I was a one computer kind of guy, I would not want to be buying any of these. Plus,
0:15:58as Stephen alluded to earlier, there's been a lot of rumblings over the last 24 to 48
0:16:02hours about new hardware coming sooner rather than later. So at this point, I would hold
0:16:07out if at all possible.
0:16:08Yeah, I think that's part of the large purchaser conversation is that organizations like this
0:16:15have a file cabinet with a handful of notebooks that they can deploy if someone's machine
0:16:22is getting repaired, right?
0:16:23They can put their data on it, they can image it with their stuff, and then swap it back
0:16:27out when the repaired machine comes back.
0:16:30But if you're an individual, and it's your one laptop, say you're a student, it's not
0:16:35great.
0:16:36And I don't want to harp on the keyboard problem today, but I found that sort of conversation
0:16:39really interesting from the volume purchaser.
0:16:42I spent time in that world for a long time in my career before Relay, and I kind of agree
0:16:47with them that I feel like I'd be more apt to purchase this machine now for my users,
0:16:52knowing that there's a safety net.
0:16:53I still wouldn't be thrilled until Apple released a machine
0:16:56that actually fixed the problems,
0:16:58but knowing that you've got an extra year,
0:17:00that it's a known issue,
0:17:02you're not gonna have to fight with a Genius Bar,
0:17:05that I think is all good.
0:17:07So we have a lot more to talk about today,
0:17:09but first I want to take a break
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0:18:43So I know that I am in the business of celebrating anniversaries of Apple products, but this
0:18:48week everyone's in the business of celebrating Apple product anniversaries.
0:18:56Yesterday, July 10th, 2018 was the 10-year anniversary of what was then known as the
0:19:04iPhone App Store.
0:19:06Of course now that App Store has jumped to the iPad
0:19:11and some people still have iPod Touches
0:19:13and it has many cousins, right?
0:19:15The tvOS App Store, iMessage App Store,
0:19:19there's that weird thing embedded in the Watch Helper app.
0:19:22Lots of app stores, lots of things to talk about,
0:19:24but it all started 10 years ago.
0:19:27And John, I know that over on Mac Stories
0:19:30you guys have been doing a whole bunch of stuff.
0:19:34So why don't you share a little bit maybe
0:19:36about what y'all are doing and sort of the idea
0:19:38behind it all.
0:19:39- Sure, I don't know if you've noticed, Steven,
0:19:41but we tend to write about apps once in a while
0:19:43in MacStories.
0:19:45And so it seemed particularly appropriate
0:19:48that we celebrate the App Store anniversary,
0:19:51the 10th anniversary this week, in a variety of ways.
0:19:54And very early in the year, Federico was thinking about
0:19:58what 2018 was gonna hold for MacStories.
0:20:02And he decided he wanted to do something really special
0:20:04for this anniversary.
0:20:06And when we talked about it, I was immediately excited
0:20:09because it really is kind of at the heart of what we do.
0:20:13And we wanted to take the opportunity,
0:20:16not just to talk about the App Store
0:20:18in terms of the sheer numbers,
0:20:20because by any stretch of imagination,
0:20:23the App Store has been a phenomenal success
0:20:26from 500 apps or so when it started
0:20:30to over 2 million today.
0:20:32but also to talk about the stories behind those apps.
0:20:36And not just the developers who make the apps,
0:20:39but also how the app store has changed
0:20:41the business of selling software,
0:20:43how users relate to software,
0:20:46and how apps have changed our lives.
0:20:49So what we've got going on over at Mac Stories this week,
0:20:52we started on Monday with an article about jailbreaking
0:20:57and the sweet solution, web apps,
0:20:59that Scott Forstholdt tried to sell to everyone
0:21:02back in 2007.
0:21:04Yeah, so we started with that.
0:21:05And we started off with an episode of App Stories
0:21:07where Federico and I told a few of the stories about how
0:21:11the App Store has affected our careers and our lives.
0:21:15But each day, we're rolling out additional one or two feature
0:21:19stories on Mac stories about different aspects of the App
0:21:23Store.
0:21:24We've done accessibility.
0:21:27We've done the business of making apps.
0:21:29We've got other things coming, including stuff
0:21:32about the game industry. And then with App Stories, each of the days, we usually publish
0:21:37that podcast on Mondays. And so for every day between the next two Mondays, we're publishing
0:21:44an extra episode with interviews with developers and designers about all sorts of different
0:21:51parts of the App Store. So far, we've released two of them, an interview with Craig Hockenberry
0:21:56and James Thompson about the very earliest days in day one of the App Store, and then
0:22:01one with Marco Arment and David Smith about building a sustainable career from independent
0:22:08app development. We've got another four of those to go. So it's been an interesting week
0:22:13and so far I think people have been enjoying it.
0:22:14Yeah, I know I have. Selfishly I wrote one of the things.
0:22:18Yes, you did. We have a bunch of people working on it. The whole team plus Stephen Aquino
0:22:23wrote the accessibility article today. There's a lot of people involved.
0:22:28Yeah, the one I wrote was about basically how the App Store itself has changed in ten
0:22:34years.
0:22:35So like a bunch of these screenshots I made because I have iPod Touches running things
0:22:38like iOS 4.
0:22:42It's really pretty remarkable to me looking through this.
0:22:45I'm just skimming through the article now again.
0:22:47How little the App Store changed for a long time.
0:22:52Those tabs across the bottom featured categories, top 25.
0:22:56They tried Genius stuff, which was like the algorithm trying to guess what apps you would
0:23:01want based on apps you've already bought.
0:23:03That got downplayed pretty quickly.
0:23:06My personal favorite was Near Me in iOS 7.
0:23:09So for me, it was like my local newspaper, some local news stations, the movie theater
0:23:16company that owns all the theaters in the Memphis area.
0:23:19That again very quickly went away.
0:23:24And now, of course, with iOS 11, the App Store is markedly different, with, by all accounts,
0:23:33a very large editorial team with a very demanding editorial schedule.
0:23:41With the Today screen having stories, I'm flipping through it now, stories and collections
0:23:45of apps and features and interviews.
0:23:49They broke up games and apps into separate tabs with separate top lists, which I think
0:23:52is really good. And it really feels to me like the iOS 11 App Store under Phil Schiller
0:23:59who was put in charge of the App Store in what, 2015 I think, that it is now much more
0:24:06than just a shelf, right? You go and you search and you pick the app that you want. But the
0:24:11App Store has become a destination in a way that it was not before with this editorial
0:24:17push. And I for one really enjoy it. Not that I, I don't think I'm downloading any more
0:24:21apps than I was before necessarily but seeing the work that goes into this
0:24:27helps you know it helps be excited about about the ecosystem that the iPhone in
0:24:35particular enjoys and with what two million apps now this helps bring things
0:24:42to the surface that you may not you may not see before just this weekend there
0:24:47was a feature about podcast clients on iOS. And of course, I had most of them installed
0:24:53for work, but there were a few in there that I wasn't familiar with. And so I went through
0:24:57and kind of checked them out, see what people are doing. And even right now someone that
0:25:02posted a boy in the chat room, I'm downloading less but opening the App Store more. And I
0:25:06think that's a pretty profound thing. What about you, Casey? Did I was 11 to the App
0:25:12Store? Did it change how you interact with the App Store any as a consumer?
0:25:16Not really.
0:25:18I found that now that I've had an iPhone for quite a long time, and we'll talk about that
0:25:23more later, I very rarely just go spelunking through the App Store trying to find something
0:25:28else to try.
0:25:30I think I speak probably for all three of us in saying that my life is way too busy
0:25:35to just sit there and kind of figure out, "Ooh, what's a new game I could try?"
0:25:38Or, "Oh, let me rejigger my to-do management for the 85th time."
0:25:42I don't know about you two, but I don't have time for that.
0:25:45And so I very rarely go to the App Store for really any reason other than to see if there's
0:25:50updates that I need because maybe an app is not functioning the way I want or I've heard
0:25:55rumors of some new feature coming out in some app that I already have.
0:25:58And so I was thinking as you were talking, like, where do I, what would cause me to download
0:26:02a new app these days?
0:26:03And I would say that Twitter is my App Store in the sense that when I hear some rumblings
0:26:09about a brand new app, or actually, you know, Mac Stories is another great example of this,
0:26:13I see a review of some new app that's supposedly really good that would lead me to the App Store
0:26:18But I don't find myself going there just for funsies just to see what's going on, which is not by the way an indictment about
0:26:25Anything that the that is happening on the App Store
0:26:28I think what's going on in the App Store with this whole editorial team and the
0:26:31Features they've been doing in the art for them. I think it's all great. I really and truly do
0:26:36It's just that of the ways in which I spend my downtime going to the App Store is not really on that list
0:26:42Well, Casey, you know reinstalling or installing a new task manager every few weeks is kind of my job. So I
0:26:49Do that a lot now, but yeah, I understand and I go to the App Store a lot
0:26:55it's kind of a occupational hazard for me too, but
0:26:58Stephen one thing that you said it really struck me which was you know the I
0:27:04Think with a project like this
0:27:07it's helpful every now and then to just kind of step back and look at
0:27:12the long-term narrative of things like the App Store and see what Apple has done and where it's going and I think you're absolutely
0:27:19right that for a long time there wasn't a lot of change in the App Store and I just published this morning the
0:27:26article about the business of making apps and selling apps on the App Store
0:27:30And that's the thing that when I put together a timeline really struck me was that it felt like
0:27:36for a long time Apple was just trying to catch up with the
0:27:40unexpected popularity of the App Store that it was all infrastructure and
0:27:45making sure you know the apps downloaded and things worked and it wasn't until
0:27:50Phil Schiller took over and
0:27:53Starting in 2016. They started doing things like rolling out a broader
0:27:58implementation of subscriptions and the search ads and a bunch of other things which you know
0:28:04I know that not everybody likes those things or agrees that they're the right direction for the App Store
0:28:09But they are I think a sign that the App Store is maturing and that what we're seeing now is more of a
0:28:16policy change and kind of a
0:28:18Manifestation of the direction that Apple wants to take the App Store in. Yeah, I think that's really interesting especially as the
0:28:26the new
0:28:29This new approach spreads, right? So we see with iOS 12 in
0:28:33in Apple Books, we see more of this sort of stuff coming.
0:28:38You can see a world where this sort of editorial push
0:28:44is obviously coming to the Mac, but like,
0:28:47what if we saw it in like the Apple Store app?
0:28:49Like what if Apple applied this sort of work
0:28:53to the, you know, to various parts of its business?
0:28:57And I think we will continue to see that.
0:28:59I'm not sure we're ever gonna see like editorial
0:29:00in the tvOS app store, rest in peace,
0:29:03But, you know, maybe, you never know.
0:29:05- TV has an app store, who knew?
0:29:08- There it is.
0:29:11So there's a thing going around the internet
0:29:14where we are going to take part of it
0:29:16about the earliest apps that we used,
0:29:18the early apps that we bought.
0:29:2010 years on, looking through this,
0:29:22I had forgotten about many of these apps.
0:29:25Many of them cannot be downloaded anymore from the store
0:29:28for one reason or another.
0:29:29Maybe they didn't make the 32-bit cutoff,
0:29:30maybe the developer pulled them, whatever.
0:29:32But there are a few things in here that I think we all still use from those early days.
0:29:39And we're going to talk about some of those.
0:29:41So Casey, what early iPhone apps still grace your home screen or maybe stashed in a folder
0:29:47now?
0:29:48Yeah, so I was looking through the first couple of screens of purchases in the App Store.
0:29:55And we're going to talk more about that in a minute, just like you said.
0:29:58But in terms of stuff that I downloaded real early on that I still use from time to time,
0:30:03I took the first six I could find.
0:30:05The first one was iTunes remote.
0:30:07That seems to be extremely popular amongst many of the people I've spoken to.
0:30:12To set the kind of scenario at the time, my recollection is I did not have an Apple TV.
0:30:18In fact, I'm not sure the Apple TV even existed at this point.
0:30:21And whether or not it did, what I did have was an Apple Airport Express hooked up to
0:30:27my stereo.
0:30:28And so this was pre-airplay, and what I would do is I had my computer sitting on my network
0:30:36with iTunes running, and I had my Airport Express sitting, also on my network, connected
0:30:41to my stereo.
0:30:42And what I would do is I would use the iTunes remote to say, "Hey, iTunes on my computer,
0:30:46go ahead and play such and such album on the Airport Express," which would then get it
0:30:49to come out via the stereo.
0:30:52At the time, this was unreal.
0:30:54This was magical because I could be downstairs, my computer upstairs, they're all connected
0:31:00via some sort of network via Wi-Fi or wires or whatever, and I could get music to come
0:31:04out of my stereo that was being streamed off my computer.
0:31:07It was amazing.
0:31:08And you can still do all of that today, as far as I know.
0:31:11Steven, interrupt me when you're ready.
0:31:12But not many people do because AirPlay is so much easier.
0:31:16And I don't even have a HomePod in the house, I haven't even really played with AirPlay
0:31:19too much but but even just regular airplay will do a lot of this so much easier my other
0:31:25list of apps Shazam which I still use from time to time I guess it's built into Siri
0:31:30so I guess I could remove it but to be honest I don't even know how to kick it off I guess
0:31:33what am I listening to or something I don't I don't know if it is yet or I'm Apple bot
0:31:37Shazam less than a year ago like pretty recently right I'm not actually sure if you can ask
0:31:43Siri what music is is playing but uh I don't know John do you know no I don't but it's
0:31:49The deal is not closed yet because it's being investigated by the European Union. So I
0:31:53It's not it's still not 100% official yet. Oh
0:31:57all right, so moving on my AT&T which is may but you know, I
0:32:03Switched from Verizon AT&T because of the iPhone and this was at the time. This was a terrible decision because at the time
0:32:11Verizon was everywhere in AT&T was effectively nowhere and so
0:32:17For the first year or two that I had an iPhone my AT&T was used less to check data or call or text message usage
0:32:24And more to just mark places where I didn't have service
0:32:27I was actually just talking to Erin the other day and
0:32:30remembering about what it was like when I had only 200 text messages per month and
0:32:35I remember begging her to you know, don't you think I could upgrade to the unlimited text message per month plan?
0:32:40Don't you think it's time? I'm always bumping up to my 200 messages each month
0:32:44Do you guys remember those days or did you always have like unlimited messages from day one? No, I remember those days
0:32:49So it was yeah, I had limited text for a long time
0:32:52Yeah, I think I probably did too and then now it's so funny to think about like I message just uses your data
0:32:57Like I don't yep, right? I don't know the last time I thought about that
0:33:00Exactly, exactly. My last three Facebook is obvious. I still use it from time to time
0:33:06I very rarely post but I do look you know once every day every couple days see what like high school friends are up to
0:33:11And things like that
0:33:12Dropbox, I don't use the app very often on iOS, but Dropbox is still a critical part of my life
0:33:18Every single day mostly on the Mac and so that's still there and finally one password
0:33:24Which I got on that train reasonably early. It was a little over a year after I bought my phone
0:33:29And so I had an old old old version of one password with a hilariously ancient looking icon
0:33:36And so that was my top six that I could come up with that I feel I still use from time to time today
0:33:42Yeah, I think I think your set is probably pretty representative at least of like nerdy
0:33:48John what about you? Yeah, it was interesting to look at Casey's list because I actually do have my AT&T on my phone right now
0:33:57And I'm not exactly sure why I think you know
0:34:00It's one of those things where you go to check your bill every now and then and I think they they con you into
0:34:05downloading it, but I don't really use it. Mine, I guess, are Google, and that's used
0:34:13primarily to authenticate when I'm signing in with two-factor authentication into a Google
0:34:18account. I don't use the app for searching by itself, usually. Drafts, which, not a first-day
0:34:26app, but an app that's been on my phone since it came out, and it's on version 5.3 now,
0:34:33I use it for all sorts of, you know, just ephemeral texts, putting,
0:34:37creating drafts of various things that might end up in an email or a tweet or,
0:34:40or wherever. And then tweet bot,
0:34:43tweet bot has been my main Twitter client since I started using an iOS device.
0:34:48I think, uh, I have used Twitter ethic from time to time,
0:34:53but tweet bot is the one that I have always come back to in the end and
0:34:58Instagram. Uh, I am,
0:35:01I think a more recent, heavier user of Instagram
0:35:05for a long time, it was off my phone,
0:35:07but I had it in the early days, abandoned it for a while,
0:35:10and now I've in the last six to nine months
0:35:13have been back into it.
0:35:14And that's been around for a pretty long time too.
0:35:16- Yeah, you know, to build on that very quickly,
0:35:18I was spending a lot of time on Instagram,
0:35:20particularly when I was overseas.
0:35:22I don't know if it's just me,
0:35:24it sounds like maybe not John,
0:35:25but the more time I spend on Instagram these days,
0:35:29the more I enjoy it, whereas the more time I spend,
0:35:32I know this is not new, but the more time I spend
0:35:34on Twitter, the more I hate myself.
0:35:35And just the other day, I was sitting there
0:35:37scrolling through Instagram and I thought to myself,
0:35:40I just really, really like this app.
0:35:43And everything about this app makes me happy.
0:35:45I mean, obviously there's things I could complain about
0:35:47with regard to the app, like the algorithmic timeline
0:35:49and things like that, but by and large,
0:35:52there's nothing about Instagram, be it the app,
0:35:55the community, et cetera, that really just gets on my nerves
0:35:59yet Twitter, almost everything about it gets on my nerves.
0:36:02And yet like a junkie, I still go to it all the time.
0:36:05But everything about Instagram makes me happy these days.
0:36:06And it was one of those moments where I wasn't just,
0:36:08I wasn't like evaluating my usage of Instagram.
0:36:10I was just sitting there playing with the app
0:36:12and I thought to myself, man, do I really love Instagram?
0:36:14And I feel like they've brought in new features.
0:36:17You know, they've basically aped Snapchat left and right,
0:36:20but in a way that an old man like me can understand.
0:36:22And so I don't use Instagram stories
0:36:24during my day-to-day life, but oh man, when I'm traveling,
0:36:27It's so much fun to kind of like be able to share that in a fun way and in an ephemeral way that disappears
0:36:32So everything about Instagram, I mean it went on my phone
0:36:35Relatively early after it was released and I just love that darn app so much
0:36:39Yeah
0:36:40I think Instagram is one of those places for me right now where I go out of my way to find more interesting things to
0:36:45Follow whereas Twitter Twitter it's all about filtering out the noise and the unpleasantness and you know
0:36:52All I do is create mutes when I'm on Twitter and one on Instagram
0:36:56I try to find people to follow so I mean, I think there's something to that for sure Casey. Yep. Yep completely agree
0:37:02I mean mine mine followers in line with y'all's
0:37:04iTunes remote one password both very early as well as instapaper, which I still use
0:37:11They are unfortunately still not available in a bunch of European
0:37:15Countries because they are not GDPR compliant. I think I
0:37:20Tweeted about that when we were traveling and a lot of people are like, oh my god, what are they doing with your data?
0:37:25You got to leave. I don't know if it's so much that or is that the Instapaper just doesn't have
0:37:30A staff of people working on it anymore. I don't know how many people working on it was acquired by Pinterest
0:37:36At least one of the developers who was working on it under its previous owner went with it
0:37:41but it just doesn't seem like Instapaper has the horsepower behind it at once did which is
0:37:47worrisome as it's been on my home screen as long as it's been around in the same spot actually and
0:37:53And it's an app I use almost every day.
0:37:56I don't know what I would do if it went away,
0:37:59but now that's in the back of my head.
0:38:02But you know, a lot of these other apps,
0:38:05they've sort of come and gone,
0:38:06and I think that's okay, right?
0:38:07I think that part of the story of the App Store is
0:38:10you have these like core, well-known apps
0:38:13that are there for the whole time
0:38:15that you really rely on every day.
0:38:18You put on your home screen once
0:38:20and they're there for years and years.
0:38:22Then there are other apps that, you know,
0:38:23especially games or little like utilities or social media networks that
0:38:28don't make it that you use for a period of time and then you replace it with
0:38:32something else or that thing just sort of goes away quietly and I think that
0:38:37both of those types of apps are important for the App Store ecosystem on
0:38:43a whole because it they serve different needs and I think with things like
0:38:47subscriptions Apple is trying to get more developers to a place where I get
0:38:52Dell in this app and I can use it for years and years because the developer has the financial
0:38:58ability to work on it, you know, for years and years and isn't going to be stuck abandoning
0:39:03it because they can't afford to work on it. And so I wonder, you know, now, in another
0:39:0810 years, you know, what apps are we downloading in 2018, that we're still going to be using
0:39:12in 2028? And it's really hard to guess. I don't want to guess here. But I think about
0:39:19sometimes just wondering like, you know, it's something like
0:39:22instapaper one password. It didn't grow to the size that
0:39:26they did, because they were there on day one. Is that
0:39:29impossible now? But then you look at something like Instagram
0:39:33or something like I don't know, like overcast that was years
0:39:37later, but now is really large, because it's a good app with,
0:39:41you know, people care about it, developers care about it. And I
0:39:44just I think those dynamics, while they're different than
0:39:46than they were in 2008, I think some of the core stuff
0:39:50may always be the same.
0:39:52- Yeah, I agree with that, Steven.
0:39:53I found, I was a little surprised at how few apps
0:39:57I have today that I'm still using that I used 10 years ago,
0:40:01but they do turn over quickly,
0:40:03and there's always the latest and greatest.
0:40:05I mean, Instapaper is probably one of the first
0:40:08third-party apps that I ever purchased on iOS,
0:40:12at least as soon as it came out,
0:40:14'cause I was using it when it was still a web service.
0:40:17And I tried Out Pocket maybe 18 months ago
0:40:21because I haven't been real confident
0:40:24that Pinterest is really going to support Instapaper
0:40:27and I think some of the GDPR stuff tends to support that.
0:40:32And I haven't gone back,
0:40:33but it was one of my early favorites.
0:40:36- All right, so we have some more stuff to talk about,
0:40:38but we have another break here.
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0:42:49So the App Store was really only one third
0:42:54of what Apple launched this week in July of 2008.
0:42:59It was a very, very busy week.
0:43:02You had the iPhone 3G, you had the App Store,
0:43:07you had iPhone OS 2, and you also had MobileMe,
0:43:12which in hindsight didn't go super well.
0:43:17I actually just spent some time writing a deal
0:43:20about the legacy of MobileMe and sort of how it earned
0:43:23that legacy, 'cause I think people sort of joke at it
0:43:28and joke about it, but really it was really pretty bad.
0:43:32had outages and like data loss and stuff it wasn't good. But I was reminded of all
0:43:38this and thinking about this date in 2008 I was working as a Mac genius and
0:43:43I've told the story before but basically all these things launched more or less
0:43:48at the same time. You had the new iPhone, you had the new software, you had the App
0:43:52Store. I believe MobileMe was like a couple of days later but basically
0:43:56basically the same time. And Apple had instituted a new sales policy. So with
0:44:02the first iPhone, we all remember those long lines, right, like news helicopters
0:44:06circling Apple stores. Then you just basically you bought an iPhone and
0:44:11you walked out with it and then you plugged it into iTunes on your Mac or PC
0:44:15at home and activated it at home. And of course we all know that AT&T activation
0:44:20servers basically fell over. They couldn't keep up with the demand. But hey,
0:44:24you were at home, it was no big deal. But it was still pretty bad. I people waited days to activate
0:44:29their phones. And remember, this phone was only sold in the US in very, very select countries, it
0:44:35was not the worldwide phone that it is today. The iPhone 3g was different, you had to activate the
0:44:41phone in the store. The iPhone 3g did roll out to more countries than the original phone. That was
0:44:47something Apple is very proud of and its keynote. But I think this was partially to cut down on
0:44:53people buying these phones and then selling them on the gray market or you know selling them to
0:45:00people in other countries and having them jailbroken and all this stuff. Apple wanted more control
0:45:05so they had in-store activation and that was really great if you were on the east coast when
0:45:13the phone went on sale but as time marched across the continent and those servers had more and more
0:45:19demand on them, even by the time it got to Central Time, where I was, basically
0:45:25you couldn't activate a phone. And it was part Apple's fault, it was part AT&T's
0:45:29fault, but we had all these people stuck in the store, let alone everyone trying
0:45:33to like figure out the App Store and then people coming in a few days later
0:45:36or a week later saying, "I, you know, signed up for the MobileMe free trial and it
0:45:42ate all my contacts," or "I haven't gotten email in two days, what's the deal with
0:45:46that like all of these issues and it was really I think a learning moment for
0:45:53Apple. There's this email from Steve Jobs about this and it's about MobileMe in
0:45:59particular but in it he says you know maybe we should have even rolled out
0:46:02MobileMe slower. Clearly it was a mistake to do all of this at once and we see
0:46:07Apple now handling this much better where they have for the last several
0:46:13years released a new iOS version, you know, a few days before the new iPhones start shipping,
0:46:20right? So they have sort of two waves that people upgrading old phones, and they have new phones
0:46:25activating, sort of divorcing those dates a little bit. You see on the on the App Store itself,
0:46:33developers can select a rolled release schedule. They've really built in more tools to help this
0:46:40sort of thing from all crashing down at once. But MobileMe was bad. Take all the launch
0:46:46stuff away. It was really buggy. It was slow. It had lots of outages. Again, very buggy
0:46:53release. They were able to overcome a lot of that in its three-year lifespan, but clearly
0:46:58the damage was done. There's this joke when they introduced iCloud. Steve Jobs said, "Why
0:47:02would you want this? We're the people who brought you MobileMe." And developers are
0:47:06laughing at WWDC. But it's true, Apple had a real problem and iCloud actually inherited
0:47:11a lot of those problems. The core mail contacts calendars for MobileMe were rolled into iCloud.
0:47:17But you know, iCloud has been around a long time now and I'm curious what parts of iCloud
0:47:26the two of you use. But before we get there, were you guys around for the MobileMe days?
0:47:31Did you experience some of these outages or has it just been like a nightmare you've heard
0:47:35about other people? I never really used MobileMe. I was aware of it. I was certainly around during
0:47:42this time, but I never really used it. I'm pretty sure I have a me.com email address, but I used it
0:47:53as little as possible because I heard so many problems with it. I didn't, at the time, trust
0:47:59MobileMe to do any of the sort of syncing things that I would want to do. I was using Gmail for my
0:48:03email and I still am although it's Google Apps on my domain and so I
0:48:08didn't really need an email address the only thing I maybe could have used was
0:48:11contact syncing but I just did that you know via I just did that via iTunes
0:48:17which actually worked okay and I'd never really dabbled with it at all did you
0:48:22John yeah I did I actually was a dot Mac subscriber back in the day I used that
0:48:27and then I moved over to yeah I have a dot Mac address and I switched over to
0:48:33MobileMe and had some of the problems. I mean, syncing would get out of whack fairly regularly
0:48:39and you'd have to do the dance, which unfortunately got inherited by iCloud where you'd have to
0:48:44sign out on all your devices and then sign back in one at a time and try to figure out
0:48:49which one had the canonical information to make sure that everything was preserved and
0:48:55synced properly across devices. I didn't have data loss or some of the real horrible things
0:49:01heard about at the time, but I had a family plan for it and had, you know, it was a lot
0:49:07fewer devices back in those days, but at least an iMac and my wife's iPhone and iPod touch,
0:49:13you know, things like that on it. It worked okay, except for when I would have to do that
0:49:17special log out of everything dance and try to get everything syncing again.
0:49:21Yeah, I used it. I too had been a .Mac subscriber and I had a lot of these issues, but I sort
0:49:29of powered through. I eventually got fed up though and basically moved everything to Gmail.
0:49:34That's still where all of my stuff is today. The idea that all this stuff would basically
0:49:39sync wirelessly, coming from a world where we were all plugging into iTunes, like move
0:49:44our calendar appointments over. It really did seem like the future, but Apple was ahead
0:49:49of the curve, but only by a little bit. Very quickly, you could do stuff with your Google
0:49:53account with third-party apps and then Apple basically baked that in.
0:49:58And now, really, if you have a Gmail account with contacts and calendars and stuff, it's
0:50:02really a first-party thing on the iPhone and the iPad, right?
0:50:06Like iOS and the Mac.
0:50:07You just plug in your credentials and all your stuff just syncs.
0:50:10And I think that's really great that Apple supports those services.
0:50:13Yeah, you don't get Cernet features, you don't get push email, but some of that's on Google,
0:50:18some of it's on Apple.
0:50:19I was going to say my iCloud email is pretty much unused.
0:50:23I mean, I have it, but it's not used by many people.
0:50:27It's really Gmail for me, both a personal account and then
0:50:30a work account.
0:50:31Yes, so let's talk about that a little bit.
0:50:33So like I said, I use iCloud for a lot of stuff,
0:50:37iCloud photos in particular.
0:50:40I use iCloud for a bunch of syncing stuff.
0:50:43I do not really use iCloud file stuff,
0:50:48like iCloud Drive because everyone I work with
0:50:52uses Dropbox 'cause I need shared folders.
0:50:54Dropbox basically is the file system on my computers.
0:50:57I use Apple Music.
0:50:59But I do use Gmail for my personal email and work stuff.
0:51:03And that is really because of the rules,
0:51:09server-side rules you can do in Gmail.
0:51:12They're far superior spam filtering.
0:51:13It got to a point where my iCloud email
0:51:15was just really unusable for spam reasons
0:51:19and I couldn't direct things into folders
0:51:20the way I wanted to on the server side.
0:51:23And I don't know if they've really improved that,
0:51:25I really haven't gone back 'cause I'm happy with Gmail.
0:51:28But all the sort of sticky stuff,
0:51:31like the kind of glues the Mac and iPhone together,
0:51:34all that I'm using iCloud and I've been pretty happy
0:51:37with it over the last couple years.
0:51:39I've had issues here and there.
0:51:40It's still too ambiguous to troubleshoot.
0:51:43It's sort of a mystery box.
0:51:44All you can do is tell it not to sync anymore and resync or sign out and sign back in.
0:51:50There's no real troubleshooting.
0:51:52But that's the way of the world now, I guess.
0:51:54And I think that iCloud truly has outgrown the complaints of the early days of iCloud,
0:52:00but especially the complaints of MobileMe.
0:52:02I think it's pretty solid for most people.
0:52:06What about you, Casey?
0:52:07So I have been using iCloud Contact Sync for as long as I can remember.
0:52:16And up until about a year ago, I want to say, it was working flawlessly.
0:52:21About a year ago, I had that thing that everyone else seems to have where basically all of
0:52:26their contacts got duplicated.
0:52:27And I'm still over time weeding through all of them trying to kind of merge and consolidate
0:52:32all of these things.
0:52:33It may have been user error for all I know.
0:52:36I don't think I did anything that would cause that problem, but that was very frustrating.
0:52:42But in terms of just general, you know, what Apple cloud stuff do I use?
0:52:45I actually dabbled just a smidge with iCloud Drive the other day.
0:52:49In fact, we were talking, I believe, before we started recording about AirDrop, and it
0:52:53occurred to me that I couldn't get AirDrop working on iOS 12, despite what I think I
0:52:57told you earlier, Steven, and I ended up sending a picture to myself.
0:53:01In fact, it might have been a picture of you that I put on Instagram via iCloud Drive.
0:53:05And so I've been slightly dabbling with iCloud Drive recently.
0:53:09I have a free account on Dropbox and I don't see myself moving to iCloud Drive entirely.
0:53:16I've heard enough horror stories about it that it scares me.
0:53:19But as an accessory, I'm using iCloud Drive from time to time.
0:53:22I'm also putting some documents in there from time to time.
0:53:26The other thing that I've used a lot and have really had no particular issue with is iTunes
0:53:30Match.
0:53:31And for those of you who don't recall, this came out a few years ago now.
0:53:34And what this was, was you uploaded all of your music to Apple, or really any of the
0:53:39music that Apple couldn't match within their own iTunes Music Store.
0:53:44You would upload everything that they couldn't match, and you could stream it and/or download
0:53:48it from all your other devices.
0:53:49And it works out really nicely as your own personal Apple Music or Spotify setup.
0:53:54And I still do use that.
0:53:56I don't listen to iTunes Music that often.
0:53:58I typically listen to Spotify.
0:54:00But it is nice to have my entire library available as long as I'm not, maybe, I don't know, flying
0:54:05over the Atlantic for some reason or another.
0:54:08So I am pretty light on Apple Cloud services, but the ones I use tend to work really, really
0:54:12well.
0:54:13So I don't know, win some, lose some.
0:54:15What about you, Jon?
0:54:16So I use iCloud Drive a little bit.
0:54:20I mean, for instance, I let things like Ulysses and Bear do their thing, syncing between devices
0:54:27using iCloud Drive and save their documents in there.
0:54:31And I'll also use numbers.
0:54:33I don't like Excel.
0:54:36Microsoft apps still give me a little bit of the willies.
0:54:38I think it's from working back as a lawyer back in the day and having to deal with Windows.
0:54:44But so I use numbers.
0:54:45And so there are spreadsheets I have that I share with Federico, for instance, that
0:54:49are shared over that.
0:54:51But I also am painfully aware of a problem I think Myke had maybe about a year ago where
0:54:57he lost a bunch of pages documents.
0:54:59So I have a Hazel Rule set up on my Mac that's always running
0:55:02that will look at that numbers document
0:55:04and copy it out to Dropbox every now and then
0:55:06so that I've got kind of like belt and suspenders
0:55:09to make sure that that works.
0:55:11And I haven't had those same problems,
0:55:13but I guess I've got the peace of mind of knowing it's there.
0:55:17But for the most part, I'm using Google services,
0:55:22whether it's Docs, Sheets, or Forms,
0:55:25for things like podcasting and the max stories,
0:55:29the club max stories, newsletters,
0:55:31and things like that.
0:55:32I'm also using Dropbox for the vast majority of things
0:55:36like screenshots, various project files,
0:55:40sharing project files with Federico and other max stories
0:55:44team members.
0:55:45Those are the big things.
0:55:46And I guess GitHub too, because the way
0:55:49we deal with editing as a team is we sync everything
0:55:55through GitHub and that way everybody has access to it and can make changes and see
0:55:59the changes. Those are probably the primary ones that I use.
0:56:04I love that you can mix and match as you need to. You can use a bunch of Apple stuff and
0:56:08like one Google or one Dropbox thing or you can be all in on Google but just use a little
0:56:13bit of iCloud. I think Apple's done a really good job at making those services and the
0:56:17apps they interact with on their platforms sort of all get along for people who live
0:56:22in multiple camps.
0:56:24I don't even know if it's better if you use all Apple stuff or all Google stuff.
0:56:27I think it's totally fine to mix and match them as you see fit.
0:56:32For instance, my calendars are on iCloud because I have a lot of shared calendars with my significant
0:56:38other and the family stuff.
0:56:41It's nice to be able to have that on my device and I don't have to worry about is it Google,
0:56:46is it iCloud, it all is there together.
0:56:49It's funny to say that I actually treat my Google Calendar as the family calendar, which
0:56:57is probably not the most efficient way of doing this.
0:56:59And what I do is I actually sign into my Gmail account.
0:57:01Again, it's actually Google Apps for my domain, but I sign into my Gmail account on Aaron's
0:57:04phone but only turn on calendars for that account.
0:57:08And then that is our shared family account.
0:57:11And I think the smarter way of doing this would probably to be embrace iCloud.
0:57:14But at this point, we've been doing this for like over a decade and I'm not about to change
0:57:18anything you know what I mean but I have a very similar setup except on Google
0:57:22instead of Apple. All right well we got some more stuff to talk about. We're almost
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0:59:22So it is mid-July, kind of a quiet time for tech news, but the rumor mill is starting up and we
0:59:33We have, of course, things like iPhone and iPad rumors,
0:59:38but there's also a lot of rumors about Macs.
0:59:40And I wanna talk to the two of you about this
0:59:42because we are Mac guys and the iOS boys aren't here.
0:59:45(laughing)
0:59:46And they just have to listen to this,
0:59:48suffer through it.
0:59:49So, Ming-Chi Kuo, friend of the show,
0:59:51really at this point, I would say, friend of the network,
0:59:54has a new report out.
0:59:56There's iPhone and iPad stuff in it.
1:00:00Basically what we've heard about the iPhone,
1:00:01remodels, what we've assumed about the iPad,
1:00:05ditching the home button, ditching touch ID,
1:00:09face ID coming, which is all really great.
1:00:12But the Mac stuff, I think, is what we should talk about.
1:00:15So in this report, and I'm gonna start with the big one,
1:00:20Mac Mini processor upgrades expected this fall.
1:00:24- What?
1:00:26Unpossible, I tell you.
1:00:28- I want one.
1:00:30- Me too.
1:00:31Mine will not run Mojave, my home media server,
1:00:34and is dying anyways, so I'm in the market.
1:00:37Federico's been in the market for a long time.
1:00:39If all they do is put new processors in this thing,
1:00:43and they don't change much else, I would be fine with it.
1:00:48I would like to have Thunderbolt 3 in it,
1:00:50even though my Drobo is Thunderbolt 2.
1:00:53I would like faster speeds available to me
1:00:55if I upgrade that Drobo at some point.
1:00:57But I would be happy with any sign of life on the Mac Mini.
1:01:01I don't expect that this is gonna be
1:01:02like what Jason Snell wrote about,
1:01:03about being super tiny, totally different.
1:01:06I expect minimum effort put forth by Apple on this Mac Mini.
1:01:11What do you think?
1:01:12- Yeah, I tend to agree.
1:01:13I mean, it would be cool if it was really super tiny,
1:01:17but I'm not, at least personally,
1:01:19I'm not looking for super tiny.
1:01:20It's small enough as it is.
1:01:22It doesn't take up a lot of space.
1:01:24And I just want something that if I get a new Mac Mini,
1:01:28if I get at least a decent configuration
1:01:31that'll last for another five years.
1:01:32I use mine as kind of a home server like you do,
1:01:36not really an entertainment server,
1:01:38but it's there doing things like running Plex
1:01:42and running Hazel and running Dev and Think
1:01:46where it's doing things like pinging the Mac stories RSS
1:01:50and creating a personal database
1:01:52of every article that's written.
1:01:54Those sorts of things.
1:01:55I used to when I worked downtown Chicago,
1:01:58it used to be the Mac that I used to do my side gig
1:02:01when I wasn't working as a lawyer.
1:02:04But now it sits in my basement in a corner,
1:02:07headless and just does these other things.
1:02:09And it's getting to the point where it's not going to,
1:02:13it'll run Mojave, but it won't,
1:02:16I expect it probably won't run more than one
1:02:19or maybe two more versions of macOS.
1:02:22So I'm in the market for even a new one too.
1:02:25- Yeah.
1:02:26- I feel like I want a Mac mini, but I don't even know why.
1:02:30I just, there's something about it
1:02:31that just seems so appealing,
1:02:33even though I don't currently
1:02:36have any particular need for one.
1:02:37Like I guess I could offload my Plex server
1:02:40to be on a Mac mini instead of my iMac,
1:02:43but I don't think there's anything,
1:02:46there's no gap in my world that an iMac mini would fill.
1:02:50I just feel like it's such a neat computer.
1:02:52I just kind of want one.
1:02:54Well, assuming it's refreshed in any way, shape, or form.
1:02:58You can have it run your unit tests in the background.
1:03:01That is true.
1:03:01That is actually a very good point.
1:03:03I didn't even think about that.
1:03:03But yes, you're exactly right.
1:03:04That is legitimately something that could be done with it.
1:03:07I could set up an Xcode build server if I so desired.
1:03:09Yeah.
1:03:10And maybe the quad core would come back and really help you
1:03:12out with all that work.
1:03:14Yeah, some of it.
1:03:15While we're dreaming, right?
1:03:17Up next, we have notebooks.
1:03:20We have MacBook Pro processor upgrades
1:03:24expected. So Intel has six core CPUs that Apple could be using. They're ready now.
1:03:30You can buy them in a bunch of Windows notebooks. I don't know where the Apple
1:03:34community started thinking that Intel didn't have CPUs ready. Like, they're ready
1:03:38and Apple just needs to integrate them and get the power and heat. You know, everything they
1:03:45got to do right, but they are out there. So I would love to see what a six core
1:03:5115 inch MacBook Pro could look like.
1:03:54That machine is not for me.
1:03:56I have a 2015 15 inch and I really think I'm probably
1:03:59gonna go back to a 13 with the new ones.
1:04:02I like having the 15 when I'm at my destination,
1:04:05but I hate traveling with it and I think I'm gonna just
1:04:07kind of give up some screen space for something
1:04:09that's more portable.
1:04:11But there are people, Jon, including you,
1:04:13who like, you work on a MacBook Pro workstation, right?
1:04:16Like you have a display and a keyboard and mouse,
1:04:17but it's powered by a MacBook Pro.
1:04:19And that I think by far is the most common pro Mac setup.
1:04:24And having more cores on a machine
1:04:30that's plugged in all the time would be great.
1:04:33And so I hope Apple does that.
1:04:35That Intel CPU could also come to the iMac,
1:04:38which we're gonna talk about in a minute.
1:04:40But of course the question is
1:04:42what do they do with the keyboard?
1:04:43Do we think that a revised MacBook Pro
1:04:47is gonna have the same keyboard
1:04:50that they've now more or less
1:04:52opened repair extension program for
1:04:54and have admitted they're bad,
1:04:56or I mean, I think they've gotta have some improvement.
1:04:58What do you think?
1:04:59- I think it'll probably be a lightly revised version
1:05:04of what we already have.
1:05:05Like I don't see them ditching,
1:05:07I always get this wrong,
1:05:08it's the butterfly switches that are current,
1:05:10is that correct?
1:05:11And it was scissor switches before, right?
1:05:12Do I have that right?
1:05:14- Yeah. - Okay.
1:05:14So I don't see them ditching the butterfly switches
1:05:17I know that's probably gonna make a lot of people angry, but if it were me, I would guess
1:05:21that they would revise or refine the switches in such a way that, you know, a microscopic
1:05:27speck of dust wouldn't utterly incapacitate an entire key/computer.
1:05:32But I think for those of us who are waiting for the return to the 2015 style keyboards,
1:05:37I think you're waiting, you're gonna be waiting for a long time, a long time for a train that
1:05:40just ain't coming.
1:05:41So we'll see what happens.
1:05:42But I would expect that we're going to see a refresh sooner rather than later.
1:05:49In fact, I would be slightly surprised if they didn't make it in time for college purchasing,
1:05:54which is happening now and especially over the next month or so.
1:05:58So who knows what will actually happen, but I think we'll get beefier processors, maybe
1:06:04more and/or beefier RAM, maybe more and/or beefier SSDs, and I think we'll get a lightly
1:06:11revised version of the keyboard.
1:06:15Yeah, I agree with you.
1:06:16It's not going to be what we've had.
1:06:18It'll be something new, probably a variant of this butterfly design, but one that I think
1:06:23is more forgiving to a single atom of dust.
1:06:28Yeah, I think that's right.
1:06:29I think they do need to do something with the keyboards, but I don't think it's going
1:06:33to be something that's completely out of the ordinary.
1:06:36I definitely want more cores, though, especially having just finished editing multiple episodes
1:06:41episodes of interview episodes for App Stories, the more cores the better. I mean, when I'm
1:06:48processing audio, four cores is great, but more would be better.
1:06:52Yeah, and remember on the 13-inch, they're all dual-core, and in the same family of Intel
1:06:58processors, there is a quad-core that Apple could use in the 13-inch, and if they do that,
1:07:03that would be the machine I buy. Quad-core to get that power for when I do edit on the
1:07:08road and 13 inch so I can actually use it on an airplane or use it someplace
1:07:13so I don't have a table. The MacBook is also in this report with a processor
1:07:17upgrade. Yes please, like my wife has an original MacBook I'd like to upgrade her.
1:07:23The current one is nice it's better than what she's got but I really like one
1:07:28more jump. I don't think the MacBook is gonna change past that they're not gonna
1:07:32add a second port they're not gonna reduce the price drastically and make it
1:07:35the new MacBook Air. I think the MacBook is kind of on this side track of if you
1:07:41really want a thin and light this is what we have to offer but the the
1:07:45trade-off is power of course and so any any additional power they can put into
1:07:49that tiny body would be welcomed by many I think including you Casey right you're
1:07:53a MacBook One user? Yeah I love my MacBook adorable my MacBook One and I
1:07:58I bought this just after WWDC last year and really I wouldn't say that I feel constrained
1:08:07by the power that often.
1:08:08There are certainly moments that it happens, but day to day I'm not.
1:08:11That being said, if there was an even moderate spec bump in terms of processing, in terms
1:08:17of the CPU, I would probably try to scrape together the money to get a new one and hand
1:08:22this one off to Aaron because Aaron's using a many year old MacBook Air that has been
1:08:27underwater a couple times.
1:08:28I have no idea how that happened, none at all.
1:08:31Weird.
1:08:32And so, um, and so it's probably time for her to get an upgrade anyway, and so I would
1:08:35pass this down to her and get myself a new one if at all possible.
1:08:39But we'll see what happens.
1:08:40I mean, again, it's not something that I feel I desperately need, but any little bit would
1:08:45help.
1:08:46And I think I, I think I got that kind of from Underscore, from David Smith, who uses
1:08:50a MacBook as his travel computer almost always, and he is basically getting new ones every
1:08:54single time they spec bump in any way shape or form just to eke out that little extra
1:08:59bit of performance whenever he can.
1:09:00Yeah, which I think is totally reasonable because they have made pretty big gains with
1:09:10the MacBook but it's so far behind the other machines because they use that slower core
1:09:16end processor.
1:09:17It would be nice to see more.
1:09:20In that vein, this rumor has,
1:09:22this is the most wishy-washy part to me,
1:09:24a new low-price notebook believes that Apple
1:09:29is designing something new for this
1:09:32to replace the MacBook Air,
1:09:34which sits in that very coveted $1,000 price point.
1:09:38Originally, he had said that the MacBook Air
1:09:41was gonna get an update,
1:09:42and it seems like maybe he's changed his mind there.
1:09:44This is something new.
1:09:45This is really interesting to me
1:09:46because if you make a small retina notebook,
1:09:51you've made the MacBook.
1:09:54And if you make a slightly thicker retina machine,
1:09:58you've made the 13 inch MacBook Pro.
1:10:01So like part of that is a branding problem
1:10:03because I truly believe the non touch bar 13 inch
1:10:07two port machine should be the MacBook Air.
1:10:08It uses the same class of processors the MacBook Air uses,
1:10:12the 15 watt TDP where the touch bar machines
1:10:15a higher TDP processor, the naming's all screwed up,
1:10:19but something new to hit that price point,
1:10:25you know, what could Apple take,
1:10:28say they start with the MacBook,
1:10:30what could they take away to make a machine cheaper,
1:10:33and I honestly don't know,
1:10:35like make it out of plastic I guess,
1:10:36but I don't think Apple really wants to do that anymore.
1:10:40You can't take any ports away 'cause it has one port,
1:10:42you can't make it any smaller 'cause it's only 12 inches.
1:10:44Yeah, what do you do?
1:10:46And so I'd struggle to see what this product could be,
1:10:50but I'm very interested in it because Apple needs a machine
1:10:54that thousand dollar price point, or even below,
1:10:56remember the 11 inch Map of Care even dipped to $899.
1:11:00Seeing what they could do there now,
1:11:03I think would be really interesting to see.
1:11:05It's not a machine for me, per se,
1:11:07but it's a machine that I want to exist,
1:11:10because we've all had this situation, right?
1:11:12Where someone asks you what machine should I buy
1:11:13for my kid and like, I honestly just tell him
1:11:16the MacBook Air nine times out of 10 because it's reliable,
1:11:19it has a bunch of ports, they don't need dongles,
1:11:21but I'm like, well, you gotta buy a four year old computer,
1:11:24right, like it has old processors and old, you know,
1:11:27slow RAM, slower disk access, and that kinda stinks,
1:11:31but there's really nothing, there's not another good answer
1:11:33right now, and Apple needs a good answer to that,
1:11:35and so I really hope this pans out,
1:11:37I hope there's something good here
1:11:38and that people are attracted to it.
1:11:40- Yeah, I don't know, I just don't feel like
1:11:42there's a big gap just like you like you said, and I don't want
1:11:45to take the attention away from my beloved adorable. I just want
1:11:48new adorables.
1:11:49It is adorable.
1:11:52Come to the iMac a significant display upgrade along a
1:11:58processor update. Again, they could bring that six core to the
1:12:02high end iMac that would put it near the iMac Pro in terms of
1:12:06cores, but it's a different, different type of processor is
1:12:10doing different things. I think there's still room to separate the iMac and iMac Pro.
1:12:14But the significant display upgrade is interesting and Steve Trout Smith
1:12:20tweeted earlier that he thinks this means 120 Hertz Pro motion coming to the
1:12:27the iMac. He was unsure about the bandwidth needed for that but that may
1:12:35be problematic there. It may not even be possible yet. But Apple's done some
1:12:40tricky stuff with like retina displays like using kind of two internal
1:12:44connectors to drive the display and maybe something custom they could do. But
1:12:48it does feel like if 120 Hertz ProMotion is coming to any Mac that it would be
1:12:53the iMac or iMac Pro now, the Mac Pro later. Because people are developing
1:13:00content for displays that refresh that quickly now and the Mac can't do it. And
1:13:05And if you want to create content and really see what it's going to be like, having the
1:13:09device you create the content on, the device the content will play on, having the same
1:13:13capabilities, of course it would be really great and really helpful.
1:13:17So this makes sense to me, but again, it seems like the technology, at least what's on the
1:13:22market now, can't make this possible.
1:13:25But Apple sort of excels at doing weird Mac display stuff, and maybe they could make it
1:13:31work somehow.
1:13:32Is that something, Stephen, that you think would be useful to you when you're doing your
1:13:35YouTube videos?
1:13:37No, I don't think so.
1:13:40Because I don't -- so in video, really, like, the highest frame rate most people upload
1:13:45is 60.
1:13:46I think that maybe the highest you can go to on YouTube, actually, is 60 frames per
1:13:49second.
1:13:51I film and edit in 30 because I don't like the way 60 looks.
1:13:54And actually, 120 hertz, like, ProMotion makes me sick to my stomach, so I have it turned
1:13:57off on my iPad.
1:13:59So I don't really care about this, but I'm thinking more about like people making like
1:14:03VR content and games where that higher refresh rate is more important.
1:14:10And so maybe there's room there for those type of users.
1:14:12I don't know if it means if it's a big deal to like movie people.
1:14:19But I don't know.
1:14:21I just don't see the bandwidth there.
1:14:24Like no, I haven't seen anyone crunch the numbers, which is exactly what Steve Trout
1:14:28Smith said but I that is just a tremendous amount of data that has to happen very very
1:14:34very quickly and I am super skeptical that today I'm not saying forever but today I'm
1:14:40very very doubtful that we have anything that can push that kind of bandwidth.
1:14:45It's a lot of data man. There's a lot of data. They could do it on the iPad because Apple is
1:14:52in charge of everything in there right and it's a smaller display of course. When you're dealing
1:14:57with other manufacturers that's harder to do and even to drive the 27 inch
1:15:02round displays they're using a custom timing controller and so they can do
1:15:06certain things but again if there's just a limitation of like how many electrons
1:15:10you can move in a second that maybe not even Apple can can reach that yet but
1:15:14it's one to keep an eye on. I've saved the Apple watch for last because I think
1:15:21I think it's in some ways more interesting
1:15:25than the Max stuff.
1:15:26I don't really mean that, but just in the sense
1:15:28that he's talking about real form factor changes.
1:15:33So two new models and sizes at 39.9 millimeters
1:15:38and 45.2 millimeters right now,
1:15:40and forever the Apple Watch has been 38 and 42 millimeter
1:15:45with enhanced heart rate detection, et cetera, et cetera.
1:15:49We had an email from a connected listener wondering when we thought an Apple Watch redesign
1:15:55was going to happen.
1:15:56And my answer was, I kind of think it's this year, like, we've seen now, really four models
1:16:02with the same design.
1:16:03In fact, they've gotten a little bit thicker over time.
1:16:06It's imperceptible to the human eye, but you know, it is there.
1:16:10But it just feels even the thickness was the same.
1:16:13The design just looks dated.
1:16:16Like I don't see many Apple watches in the wild, but over the last three or four months
1:16:21when I do see them, I kind of fallen out of love with the way it looks on people's wrist
1:16:27and including my own just because it's been the same for such a long time.
1:16:32And if they make it bigger, does that you know, they have more surface areas allow them
1:16:37to make it thinner.
1:16:38Is it give them the ability to do something more interesting with the design?
1:16:43I don't know, but it feels like to me at least we're due for something to change here, right?
1:16:48I think it's coming sooner rather than later, but I don't know if I really dig these new
1:16:56sizes.
1:16:57Now of course it could come from shrinking bezels, which is what I would prefer, but
1:17:01I have pretty small wrists and I think that the 42 millimeter is probably at the upper
1:17:08edge of what I can put on my wrist without it looking really ridiculous.
1:17:12And I think for Erin, the 38 millimeter that she has today is the same thing.
1:17:16Like any bigger and it's gonna be kind of weird looking.
1:17:21I do think it would be nice to have something thinner.
1:17:23I do think it would be nice to have something that maybe looked a little different.
1:17:27But I don't want to lose the band clasp size, which I mean certainly it can get a lot thinner
1:17:33and still use the same band setup, or at least just eyeballing it anyway.
1:17:39I am I am not liking the idea of the surface area of the watch getting bigger
1:17:44Which is not what this says it just says that that that it will be bigger
1:17:48It doesn't say if that's the screen the surface area or what but the idea of a physically larger watch a display fine
1:17:53But a physically larger watch and sitting here now
1:17:56I'm not into it, but we'll see if it happens and we'll see how big it is if and when it happens
1:18:00Yeah, I agree. I mean I could I really want my Apple watch to get thinner
1:18:06I want it to be maybe half as thin as it is right now.
1:18:10And if you look at the bezels, I could see, I bet if you did the math, that if you brought
1:18:16this edge to edge, it would be pretty close to what is predicted here.
1:18:21But I agree, I don't see putting a larger surface area watch on my wrist.
1:18:26I mean, 42mm is about as much as I personally would want.
1:18:30Yeah, so we'll see where it ends up.
1:18:33I think it's time for something to change.
1:18:36So I guess we will see.
1:18:38I'm really happy with the Series 3.
1:18:41It's really, really fast.
1:18:44The battery life's incredible.
1:18:46I wouldn't want them to give any of that up in what we'll call the Series 4.
1:18:52But again, Apple's really good at making things, especially like iOS devices, much more energy
1:18:59efficient.
1:19:00And that's how you get thinner.
1:19:01You can have less battery and still run the same time.
1:19:03Look at the iPad, right?
1:19:04It's been 10 hours forever because it's gotten more efficient and they can pack everything
1:19:09in tighter and get smaller but not give it the battery life.
1:19:12So I expect the Apple Watch to follow that recipe eventually.
1:19:15Maybe not this year, but eventually.
1:19:17Well, I think that does it for episode 200 of Connected.
1:19:22Jon, where can people find you on the internet?
1:19:26So they can find me on Twitter at J-O-H-N-V-O-O-R-H-W-E-S.
1:19:31That's Jon Voorhees.
1:19:32And of course, always on MacStories.net writing and podcasting over at AppStories.net.
1:19:40And Casey, what about you?
1:19:41Sure, you can find me on the internet at CaseyLiss.com, on Twitter as CaseyLiss.
1:19:46That's C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.
1:19:48And you can also hear me talk with my friends Marco Arment and John Siracusa on ATP, the
1:19:53accidental tech podcast at ATP FM. You can also if you wanted
1:19:58to hear thoughts and feelings from me and your co founder Myke
1:20:01Hurley, you can hear me on this very podcasting network on relay
1:20:04FM at analog, which is a show that Myke and I have been doing
1:20:08since the very first day of relay. And so you should check
1:20:11that out.
1:20:11And it'll be you and I on the next episode. So that's true.
1:20:14Yes. That's right. So about our feelings. Yep. As you and I do.
1:20:19I mean, we never talk about max you and me. It's just feelings.
1:20:21That's right, or cars. A lot of car talk.
1:20:25Well, I'd like to thank our sponsors this week, Squarespace, Casper, and Linode.
1:20:29If you want to go check them out or any of the other links in the show notes, things we've talked about,
1:20:33head over to the website, relay.fm/connected/200.
1:20:38Those links are also in the podcast app you're using to listen to us on your iPhone, so go check those out.
1:20:44If you're not familiar with John and Casey, I don't know how you're not, but go follow them on Twitter, go read their stuff.
1:20:50Guys, thank you for joining me today.
1:20:52But in our tradition, we have to say goodbye in turns.
1:20:58So gentlemen, say goodbye.
1:21:04- I'll see you later.
1:21:05- Arrivederci.
1:21:06(laughing)
1:21:09- Oh boy, well.
1:21:11- I tried, Federico's gonna kill me for that.
1:21:14- Well, adios.
1:21:15(laughing)