200: An Occupational Hazard


00:00:00   (upbeat music)

00:00:02   - Hello and welcome to Connected, episode 200.

00:00:11   Today is July 11th, 2018.

00:00:13   I'm your host, Stephen Hackett,

00:00:15   and I am not joined by either of my regular co-hosts.

00:00:19   We'll get into that in a second,

00:00:21   but I have two very special guests with me.

00:00:23   First, I wanna introduce Casey Liss,

00:00:25   newly minted free agent, podcaster, video maker, working on a secret app that he told

00:00:34   me we can't talk about.

00:00:35   Casey, how are you?

00:00:36   Hello, I'm doing well, thank you.

00:00:37   I think you did not give proper accolades to this being episode 200.

00:00:42   I think this is a big deal.

00:00:44   We should recognize that.

00:00:46   And myself and our as-yet-unnamed guest host, we have worked very hard for you to reach

00:00:51   200 episodes, and you're welcome.

00:00:52   It's all built on the work you've all done.

00:00:55   We're joined also by Jon Voorhees.

00:00:56   Jon, of course, is over at MaxStories.net and develops a couple of apps including Blink

00:01:03   and Associate.

00:01:04   If you check those out, we'll put those links in the show notes.

00:01:06   Jon, how are you?

00:01:07   Jon Voorhees, Jr.

00:01:08   Ciao, Stephen.

00:01:09   I have to channel my good friend, Mr. Viticci, since he's not here.

00:01:14   I'm doing really well.

00:01:15   It's good to talk to you.

00:01:17   Thanks for having me.

00:01:18   Yeah, thank you all for joining me.

00:01:21   It's been a hectic week.

00:01:22   I've been in the United States for about 18 hours, so we're just gonna see how this goes.

00:01:27   But we start the show not with complaining about how tired we are, but about follow-ups.

00:01:33   You remember a couple of episodes ago, Federico was having trouble with his MacBook Pro.

00:01:39   He installed macOS Mojave.

00:01:41   All of us freaked out and told him he couldn't use that to record podcasts on, so he put

00:01:45   High Sierra on, trying to dual boot, and he got stuck trying to boot back into High Sierra.

00:01:50   And I gave him some help on the show,

00:01:53   none of which actually helped.

00:01:55   But it's sometimes with the Mac,

00:01:56   it's the simple things that fix the issues.

00:02:00   And a simple NVRAM reset got him booting into High Sierra.

00:02:04   Again, a couple people had suggested that.

00:02:06   I wish I had thought of it since it's like

00:02:08   Mac troubleshooting 101, but there you go.

00:02:11   So he's dual booting.

00:02:13   But John, I understand that his Mojave situation

00:02:17   really touched you in a personal way.

00:02:19   It really did. I mean, it was funny to listen to you guys talk about it because I didn't realize

00:02:24   exactly the full extent of the story that was going on. I had no idea that you were helping him

00:02:29   with this partition, but we'll talk about it in a little bit. But we're doing some special coverage

00:02:36   of the App Store anniversary this week over on MacStories, and part of that is a series of

00:02:40   interviews that we're doing on AppStories. And five minutes before we were about to record an

00:02:45   interview with somebody, I got a text from Federico about the situation with Mojave and

00:02:50   how he wasn't going to be able to, he wasn't sure if his MacBook was going to work. This

00:02:54   was probably five minutes before we started recording and about an hour before you and

00:02:59   Myke and Federico started recording Connected. So it was a little stressful. I actually happened

00:03:05   to be out of town at the time visiting my parents' vacation house and I was a little

00:03:09   worried about my setup. Turns out his setup and the risks he was taking was far greater

00:03:14   than the risks I was taking. But fortunately it all worked out in the end and we got our

00:03:18   interview and everything was fine. But yeah, it's a little dicey doing that. I do not have

00:03:24   it on a production machine. I have it on a spare Mac Mini at home.

00:03:27   Nice. Aren't all Mac Minis spare computers at this point?

00:03:31   They are.

00:03:32   Are they even computers anymore? I mean, it's up for debate.

00:03:35   The hand crank in the back really.

00:03:37   Right.

00:03:38   That makes you sad.

00:03:39   So I've come home, I've decided to put iOS 12 on my iPhone 10.

00:03:44   I just installed it this morning.

00:03:46   I put it on my iPad actually during my trip to the UK and it's been fine.

00:03:51   So I'm going to keep an eye on that.

00:03:53   I think we'll keep checking in on iOS 12 as the summer goes along.

00:03:58   But so far it seems really stable and Mojave – I feel like people have this conception.

00:04:08   want to see the two of you think about it that after a few betas it's fine to put a

00:04:12   new iOS beta like on your phone and all of us have done it lots of people are

00:04:17   doing it with the public beta but with Mac OS there's still the I mean John you

00:04:22   basically said is like don't put it on a production machine and that's what I

00:04:25   tell people that's what I recommend people kind of live by and I think it's

00:04:31   It's just because the Mac still for most people is where more complex work happens.

00:04:39   And I know my normal two hosts would argue with that.

00:04:42   But like audio and video production, no one's really doing that on an iPad, not at scale

00:04:49   like they do on the Mac.

00:04:51   And I think, you know, Mac OS is older, it's more complicated, it's got more things going

00:04:55   on.

00:04:56   And so I still feel like that journal advice is okay, like don't put a Mac OS beta on a

00:05:01   production machine ever probably but at least wait until late in the summer but

00:05:07   iOS like I feel like we feel like we're going to take more risk is that still

00:05:13   true is it because iOS is more exciting than Mac OS what do you think Casey I

00:05:18   would say that I don't typically put betas on my hardware I have never run in

00:05:25   a Mac OS beta ever and I have gone back and forth on iOS betas I did just

00:05:30   install the iOS beta on my iPhone when I returned home from the UK.

00:05:34   Geez, it feels like 13 weeks ago, but it was actually Monday night, and we're recording

00:05:38   this midday Wednesday.

00:05:41   And the reason I did that is because I really wanted to play with Memojis and some of the

00:05:44   other features that are in iOS 12.

00:05:47   For example, I just used the "Do not disturb until the end of your calendar" appointment

00:05:53   for this very podcast recording, which is super cool.

00:05:56   I have definitely been burned by running iOS betas in the past like particularly I think it was iOS 5 where

00:06:01   notification center debuted which was a train wreck and

00:06:04   Many of us made the mistake at WWDC of putting that on and it was a disaster and I deeply regretted it

00:06:10   I wanted to put this beta on for a long time

00:06:13   But I resisted until after I came back from our mutual international trip because of all the things I want in the world to go

00:06:20   Wrong is you know having my carry phone?

00:06:23   Not operating properly while I'm overseas and not really in a position to do anything about it

00:06:27   That is not on my list of fun and exciting times that that is I don't remember the t.g

00:06:32   Scales negative end, but that is the whatever the opposite of best. I love you is that that's what that's a nightmare

00:06:37   Yes, that is that perfect. That is a nightmare scenario

00:06:40   So I waited until I got home and so far over the course of a day. It seems like it's going well

00:06:46   I wouldn't say it seems any faster than iOS 11, but it certainly hasn't been murdering my battery

00:06:52   Everything seems to be working approximately correctly.

00:06:55   So all seems basically well, but as general advice

00:06:58   I would say never install a Mac OS beta on anything that you that you need to use for any reason and

00:07:05   I would strongly advise

00:07:08   against doing any iOS betas unless you really are prepared to have a phone that's either physically warm or has poor battery life or

00:07:16   Something doesn't work properly. Yeah, I think I think that makes sense the

00:07:20   There's also the the idea of like if something goes wrong, how do you roll back right and then and both?

00:07:26   systems

00:07:28   Both on Mac and iOS it's difficult to like get your data back to an old OS because your backups

00:07:35   Kind of get rolled into the new OS so you can't really like restore time machine or it gets funny, right?

00:07:42   You always have in your back pocket

00:07:43   I'm gonna need to rebuild this from zero and I haven't had to do that in a long time

00:07:48   but it's unpleasant when it occurs.

00:07:50   Yeah, I feel too like on the Mac that there's more legacy software and things that use funky,

00:07:56   sometimes private APIs for instance. I think Audio Hijack does that. And something like that,

00:08:02   I feel like is more likely to break than something on iOS. Even so, I'm pretty careful with iOS too.

00:08:08   Usually I'll put it on an iPad because I feel the same way as I think you guys do,

00:08:13   where I really want my carry phone to be solid all the time. But this year with the MiMoji,

00:08:17   emoji, I just had to do it and I put iOS 12 on my carry phone before we even left San

00:08:24   Jose. But I've left my iPad alone because I wanted to have at least one solid device

00:08:32   where I could do some writing without having crashes and stuff. Unlike a lot of people,

00:08:37   I know a lot of people have had the iOS 12 beta be really solid for them, it was great

00:08:41   for me in beta one, but beta two, I was getting at least a dozen springboard crashes every

00:08:46   single day. It's much better with Beta 3, but it was pretty tough there for a few weeks

00:08:50   leading up to our trip to the UK.

00:08:52   Another funny thing about that was when we were all in the UK, I don't remember who it

00:08:56   was, but somebody was lamenting that, "Oh, I shouldn't have put the Beta on because my

00:08:59   GPS is all out of whack and it's telling me I'm five streets over from where I'm actually

00:09:05   standing." And it was deeply amusing to me to hear that because I noticed that GPS coverage

00:09:10   in London is just crummy, apparently. And I've heard similar things from other big cities

00:09:14   where there's just not really good line of sight to the satellites.

00:09:17   And so my GPS coverage on iOS 11 was also terrible, which made it very challenging to

00:09:23   navigate these old, old, old roads that were built long before there was, you know, the

00:09:28   grid system that I'm used to in say Manhattan or something like that.

00:09:31   So it was an adventure walking around London, but very, very fun, even on iOS 11.

00:09:37   So we will keep checking in on the beta stuff.

00:09:39   It's fun to keep track of it each summer.

00:09:43   But we should take a break and congratulate Myke.

00:09:46   Myke and Nadina got married this weekend.

00:09:50   It was real honored to be there.

00:09:51   All three of us were in London, and it was a real special time, so congratulations to

00:09:55   the Hurley family.

00:09:56   But that doesn't really explain where Federico is.

00:09:58   We didn't just leave him at the reception.

00:10:00   He's still there partying.

00:10:02   John, where's Federico?

00:10:03   Well, I don't know.

00:10:05   If you maybe follow Federico on Twitter or Instagram, you might have seen some pictures

00:10:09   of a Justin Timberlake concert.

00:10:11   He got special VIP passes to the show.

00:10:15   He was right up against the stage, and he had a connection with JT at one point.

00:10:22   And Mr. Timberlake asked Federico to join his crew and be a roadie for the rest of the

00:10:26   world tour.

00:10:27   So Federico is taking the summer off to tour with Justin Timberlake, and will be back maybe

00:10:32   sometime in the fall?

00:10:33   I don't know how long this concert tour is going.

00:10:37   Do you guys have any idea what he's up to these days?

00:10:40   I think it goes through at least October so it's gonna be a while. The sick thing is with Federico

00:10:44   I am not sure if that story is real or not because I could see it being completely real

00:10:49   It's just no he really did befriend Justin Timberlake and next thing, you know, he's throwing caution to the wind and just following Justin on tour

00:10:57   Tune in next week. He's left the show in good hands, you know, Myke and Myke and Federico

00:11:03   They can go do their thing and just Casey you and I won't take care of things

00:11:06   Sounds good to me. I

00:11:09   I want to talk a little bit about the MacBook Pro keyboard repair program.

00:11:13   We covered this a couple of weeks ago.

00:11:15   And I have been talking with a few different people who manage like fleets of Macs.

00:11:21   So these people work in like big, big companies.

00:11:25   And you know, they're not purchasing like one or two Mac books at a time.

00:11:28   They're purchasing 10, 25, 50, 100 Mac books at a time.

00:11:33   And there had been a report about the the like repair rate for these MacBook Pros and

00:11:39   the keyboards in particular, those numbers were reflected in the people I talked to managing

00:11:43   these fleets that we're seeing more of these come back with keyboard issues.

00:11:48   And so when Apple released the keyboard repair program details a couple of weeks ago, I reached

00:11:53   back out to those sources and like, how does this make you feel?

00:11:57   And one particular conversation is really interesting.

00:12:01   And I want to share some some about that is that they've this person and their organization

00:12:07   now felt that they could, and I'm putting this in quotes,

00:12:11   safely buy the 2017 MacBook Pro knowing

00:12:14   that they'll have four years of coverage for the keyboard.

00:12:19   I don't know how often this organization

00:12:21   rolls over their laptops.

00:12:23   I believe it's like two to three years for some users

00:12:26   and then longer for other users.

00:12:27   So having that extra year really made them feel

00:12:31   like it was a safer investment than

00:12:35   three years of AppleCare Plus,

00:12:37   or if you're in a situation like I was in

00:12:39   where Apple tries to charge you for the keyboard

00:12:41   and you have to make a scene to not be charged.

00:12:44   (laughing)

00:12:46   I still agree with Marco's point

00:12:47   that this should probably be a five-year program.

00:12:50   I think that these machines are out and around

00:12:55   for a long time now.

00:12:57   We were joking about the Mac Mini and stuff.

00:13:01   People hold onto these machines

00:13:02   and I think Apple should respect that.

00:13:05   But I found that really interesting,

00:13:06   that this kind of layers on some peace of mind

00:13:10   for these types of purchasers.

00:13:12   And it does make me wonder when the mid-2015

00:13:18   15-inch laptops, the notebook that Marco and I both use,

00:13:20   you can go buy it today for like two grand from Apple.

00:13:23   It has ports and the old keyboard and a MagSafe connector.

00:13:27   When that will stop being for sale.

00:13:29   My thought is that it would stop being for sale

00:13:32   when the, what seems like imminent,

00:13:36   and we're gonna talk about this later,

00:13:37   imminent MacBook Pro update, when that happens.

00:13:41   But what do you guys think about this?

00:13:43   I think both of you have pretty modern Mac notebooks,

00:13:46   but if you didn't, would this repair program

00:13:48   make you feel more comfortable about buying something?

00:13:51   - You know, I don't think it would really,

00:13:52   just because there's a hassle factor on top of this.

00:13:55   I mean, it's nice that you can get these

00:13:57   Mac keyboards replaced, but if you're administering

00:14:00   large fleet of computers, you're still going to have to deal with the complaints of the

00:14:03   users and returning them to Apple and doing all of that. And that's a lot of administrative

00:14:08   overhead. I mean, I get that it's better to have it than not, but I don't think I would

00:14:14   be entirely comfortable buying these computers in large quantities. I've got a 2015 still

00:14:20   at home myself, but I use day to day a late 2016 MacBook Pro. And the keys do, I've never

00:14:28   had a key stick and not be able to come unstuck, but they still do stick from time to time.

00:14:34   It just happened a few days ago, you know, my S keys stopped working and I was able to

00:14:38   jiggle it free and it was fine. But every time I see a speck of dust come anywhere near

00:14:43   my computer, it starts making me shake.

00:14:46   Yeah, I kind of feel the same way. I actually had at my jobby job the beloved 2015 MacBook

00:14:52   Pro, Retina MacBook Pro that you and Marco love so darn much. So that got turned in,

00:14:57   what was it, last week. And right now my home setup is a, what is this, a 2015 iMac? Thereabouts?

00:15:04   Something like that. I don't even remember. It's been around a while. A late 2015 iMac.

00:15:07   And then I have a MacBook, adorable, that I bought a little over a year ago. And I am in a position

00:15:16   of privilege in the sense that I have two computers that are basically dedicated to me. So if this

00:15:22   MacBook just decides to have a keyboard issue, and if I can't fix it myself, I still have an

00:15:27   iMac at home. But that's a very, very recent thing for me. Like up until a couple years

00:15:31   ago, I only ever had one computer and to be without a computer for several days while

00:15:37   it's being shipped off to Tennessee or Kentucky or whatever it is that all these repairs happen

00:15:43   and then wait for it to get repaired and come back like that's, that is not cool. And so

00:15:47   yeah, that's wonderful that it's not something I have to pay for. But that is especially

00:15:52   if I was a one computer kind of guy, I would not want to be buying any of these. Plus,

00:15:58   as Stephen alluded to earlier, there's been a lot of rumblings over the last 24 to 48

00:16:02   hours about new hardware coming sooner rather than later. So at this point, I would hold

00:16:07   out if at all possible.

00:16:08   Yeah, I think that's part of the large purchaser conversation is that organizations like this

00:16:15   have a file cabinet with a handful of notebooks that they can deploy if someone's machine

00:16:22   is getting repaired, right?

00:16:23   They can put their data on it, they can image it with their stuff, and then swap it back

00:16:27   out when the repaired machine comes back.

00:16:30   But if you're an individual, and it's your one laptop, say you're a student, it's not

00:16:35   great.

00:16:36   And I don't want to harp on the keyboard problem today, but I found that sort of conversation

00:16:39   really interesting from the volume purchaser.

00:16:42   I spent time in that world for a long time in my career before Relay, and I kind of agree

00:16:47   with them that I feel like I'd be more apt to purchase this machine now for my users,

00:16:52   knowing that there's a safety net.

00:16:53   I still wouldn't be thrilled until Apple released a machine

00:16:56   that actually fixed the problems,

00:16:58   but knowing that you've got an extra year,

00:17:00   that it's a known issue,

00:17:02   you're not gonna have to fight with a Genius Bar,

00:17:05   that I think is all good.

00:17:07   So we have a lot more to talk about today,

00:17:09   but first I want to take a break

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00:18:43   So I know that I am in the business of celebrating anniversaries of Apple products, but this

00:18:48   week everyone's in the business of celebrating Apple product anniversaries.

00:18:56   Yesterday, July 10th, 2018 was the 10-year anniversary of what was then known as the

00:19:04   iPhone App Store.

00:19:06   Of course now that App Store has jumped to the iPad

00:19:11   and some people still have iPod Touches

00:19:13   and it has many cousins, right?

00:19:15   The tvOS App Store, iMessage App Store,

00:19:19   there's that weird thing embedded in the Watch Helper app.

00:19:22   Lots of app stores, lots of things to talk about,

00:19:24   but it all started 10 years ago.

00:19:27   And John, I know that over on Mac Stories

00:19:30   you guys have been doing a whole bunch of stuff.

00:19:34   So why don't you share a little bit maybe

00:19:36   about what y'all are doing and sort of the idea

00:19:38   behind it all.

00:19:39   - Sure, I don't know if you've noticed, Steven,

00:19:41   but we tend to write about apps once in a while

00:19:43   in MacStories.

00:19:45   And so it seemed particularly appropriate

00:19:48   that we celebrate the App Store anniversary,

00:19:51   the 10th anniversary this week, in a variety of ways.

00:19:54   And very early in the year, Federico was thinking about

00:19:58   what 2018 was gonna hold for MacStories.

00:20:02   And he decided he wanted to do something really special

00:20:04   for this anniversary.

00:20:06   And when we talked about it, I was immediately excited

00:20:09   because it really is kind of at the heart of what we do.

00:20:13   And we wanted to take the opportunity,

00:20:16   not just to talk about the App Store

00:20:18   in terms of the sheer numbers,

00:20:20   because by any stretch of imagination,

00:20:23   the App Store has been a phenomenal success

00:20:26   from 500 apps or so when it started

00:20:30   to over 2 million today.

00:20:32   but also to talk about the stories behind those apps.

00:20:36   And not just the developers who make the apps,

00:20:39   but also how the app store has changed

00:20:41   the business of selling software,

00:20:43   how users relate to software,

00:20:46   and how apps have changed our lives.

00:20:49   So what we've got going on over at Mac Stories this week,

00:20:52   we started on Monday with an article about jailbreaking

00:20:57   and the sweet solution, web apps,

00:20:59   that Scott Forstholdt tried to sell to everyone

00:21:02   back in 2007.

00:21:04   Yeah, so we started with that.

00:21:05   And we started off with an episode of App Stories

00:21:07   where Federico and I told a few of the stories about how

00:21:11   the App Store has affected our careers and our lives.

00:21:15   But each day, we're rolling out additional one or two feature

00:21:19   stories on Mac stories about different aspects of the App

00:21:23   Store.

00:21:24   We've done accessibility.

00:21:27   We've done the business of making apps.

00:21:29   We've got other things coming, including stuff

00:21:32   about the game industry. And then with App Stories, each of the days, we usually publish

00:21:37   that podcast on Mondays. And so for every day between the next two Mondays, we're publishing

00:21:44   an extra episode with interviews with developers and designers about all sorts of different

00:21:51   parts of the App Store. So far, we've released two of them, an interview with Craig Hockenberry

00:21:56   and James Thompson about the very earliest days in day one of the App Store, and then

00:22:01   one with Marco Arment and David Smith about building a sustainable career from independent

00:22:08   app development. We've got another four of those to go. So it's been an interesting week

00:22:13   and so far I think people have been enjoying it.

00:22:14   Yeah, I know I have. Selfishly I wrote one of the things.

00:22:18   Yes, you did. We have a bunch of people working on it. The whole team plus Stephen Aquino

00:22:23   wrote the accessibility article today. There's a lot of people involved.

00:22:28   Yeah, the one I wrote was about basically how the App Store itself has changed in ten

00:22:34   years.

00:22:35   So like a bunch of these screenshots I made because I have iPod Touches running things

00:22:38   like iOS 4.

00:22:42   It's really pretty remarkable to me looking through this.

00:22:45   I'm just skimming through the article now again.

00:22:47   How little the App Store changed for a long time.

00:22:52   Those tabs across the bottom featured categories, top 25.

00:22:56   They tried Genius stuff, which was like the algorithm trying to guess what apps you would

00:23:01   want based on apps you've already bought.

00:23:03   That got downplayed pretty quickly.

00:23:06   My personal favorite was Near Me in iOS 7.

00:23:09   So for me, it was like my local newspaper, some local news stations, the movie theater

00:23:16   company that owns all the theaters in the Memphis area.

00:23:19   That again very quickly went away.

00:23:24   And now, of course, with iOS 11, the App Store is markedly different, with, by all accounts,

00:23:33   a very large editorial team with a very demanding editorial schedule.

00:23:41   With the Today screen having stories, I'm flipping through it now, stories and collections

00:23:45   of apps and features and interviews.

00:23:49   They broke up games and apps into separate tabs with separate top lists, which I think

00:23:52   is really good. And it really feels to me like the iOS 11 App Store under Phil Schiller

00:23:59   who was put in charge of the App Store in what, 2015 I think, that it is now much more

00:24:06   than just a shelf, right? You go and you search and you pick the app that you want. But the

00:24:11   App Store has become a destination in a way that it was not before with this editorial

00:24:17   push. And I for one really enjoy it. Not that I, I don't think I'm downloading any more

00:24:21   apps than I was before necessarily but seeing the work that goes into this

00:24:27   helps you know it helps be excited about about the ecosystem that the iPhone in

00:24:35   particular enjoys and with what two million apps now this helps bring things

00:24:42   to the surface that you may not you may not see before just this weekend there

00:24:47   was a feature about podcast clients on iOS. And of course, I had most of them installed

00:24:53   for work, but there were a few in there that I wasn't familiar with. And so I went through

00:24:57   and kind of checked them out, see what people are doing. And even right now someone that

00:25:02   posted a boy in the chat room, I'm downloading less but opening the App Store more. And I

00:25:06   think that's a pretty profound thing. What about you, Casey? Did I was 11 to the App

00:25:12   Store? Did it change how you interact with the App Store any as a consumer?

00:25:16   Not really.

00:25:18   I found that now that I've had an iPhone for quite a long time, and we'll talk about that

00:25:23   more later, I very rarely just go spelunking through the App Store trying to find something

00:25:28   else to try.

00:25:30   I think I speak probably for all three of us in saying that my life is way too busy

00:25:35   to just sit there and kind of figure out, "Ooh, what's a new game I could try?"

00:25:38   Or, "Oh, let me rejigger my to-do management for the 85th time."

00:25:42   I don't know about you two, but I don't have time for that.

00:25:45   And so I very rarely go to the App Store for really any reason other than to see if there's

00:25:50   updates that I need because maybe an app is not functioning the way I want or I've heard

00:25:55   rumors of some new feature coming out in some app that I already have.

00:25:58   And so I was thinking as you were talking, like, where do I, what would cause me to download

00:26:02   a new app these days?

00:26:03   And I would say that Twitter is my App Store in the sense that when I hear some rumblings

00:26:09   about a brand new app, or actually, you know, Mac Stories is another great example of this,

00:26:13   I see a review of some new app that's supposedly really good that would lead me to the App Store

00:26:18   But I don't find myself going there just for funsies just to see what's going on, which is not by the way an indictment about

00:26:25   Anything that the that is happening on the App Store

00:26:28   I think what's going on in the App Store with this whole editorial team and the

00:26:31   Features they've been doing in the art for them. I think it's all great. I really and truly do

00:26:36   It's just that of the ways in which I spend my downtime going to the App Store is not really on that list

00:26:42   Well, Casey, you know reinstalling or installing a new task manager every few weeks is kind of my job. So I

00:26:49   Do that a lot now, but yeah, I understand and I go to the App Store a lot

00:26:55   it's kind of a occupational hazard for me too, but

00:26:58   Stephen one thing that you said it really struck me which was you know the I

00:27:04   Think with a project like this

00:27:07   it's helpful every now and then to just kind of step back and look at

00:27:12   the long-term narrative of things like the App Store and see what Apple has done and where it's going and I think you're absolutely

00:27:19   right that for a long time there wasn't a lot of change in the App Store and I just published this morning the

00:27:26   article about the business of making apps and selling apps on the App Store

00:27:30   And that's the thing that when I put together a timeline really struck me was that it felt like

00:27:36   for a long time Apple was just trying to catch up with the

00:27:40   unexpected popularity of the App Store that it was all infrastructure and

00:27:45   making sure you know the apps downloaded and things worked and it wasn't until

00:27:50   Phil Schiller took over and

00:27:53   Starting in 2016. They started doing things like rolling out a broader

00:27:58   implementation of subscriptions and the search ads and a bunch of other things which you know

00:28:04   I know that not everybody likes those things or agrees that they're the right direction for the App Store

00:28:09   But they are I think a sign that the App Store is maturing and that what we're seeing now is more of a

00:28:16   policy change and kind of a

00:28:18   Manifestation of the direction that Apple wants to take the App Store in. Yeah, I think that's really interesting especially as the

00:28:26   the new

00:28:29   This new approach spreads, right? So we see with iOS 12 in

00:28:33   in Apple Books, we see more of this sort of stuff coming.

00:28:38   You can see a world where this sort of editorial push

00:28:44   is obviously coming to the Mac, but like,

00:28:47   what if we saw it in like the Apple Store app?

00:28:49   Like what if Apple applied this sort of work

00:28:53   to the, you know, to various parts of its business?

00:28:57   And I think we will continue to see that.

00:28:59   I'm not sure we're ever gonna see like editorial

00:29:00   in the tvOS app store, rest in peace,

00:29:03   But, you know, maybe, you never know.

00:29:05   - TV has an app store, who knew?

00:29:08   - There it is.

00:29:11   So there's a thing going around the internet

00:29:14   where we are going to take part of it

00:29:16   about the earliest apps that we used,

00:29:18   the early apps that we bought.

00:29:20   10 years on, looking through this,

00:29:22   I had forgotten about many of these apps.

00:29:25   Many of them cannot be downloaded anymore from the store

00:29:28   for one reason or another.

00:29:29   Maybe they didn't make the 32-bit cutoff,

00:29:30   maybe the developer pulled them, whatever.

00:29:32   But there are a few things in here that I think we all still use from those early days.

00:29:39   And we're going to talk about some of those.

00:29:41   So Casey, what early iPhone apps still grace your home screen or maybe stashed in a folder

00:29:47   now?

00:29:48   Yeah, so I was looking through the first couple of screens of purchases in the App Store.

00:29:55   And we're going to talk more about that in a minute, just like you said.

00:29:58   But in terms of stuff that I downloaded real early on that I still use from time to time,

00:30:03   I took the first six I could find.

00:30:05   The first one was iTunes remote.

00:30:07   That seems to be extremely popular amongst many of the people I've spoken to.

00:30:12   To set the kind of scenario at the time, my recollection is I did not have an Apple TV.

00:30:18   In fact, I'm not sure the Apple TV even existed at this point.

00:30:21   And whether or not it did, what I did have was an Apple Airport Express hooked up to

00:30:27   my stereo.

00:30:28   And so this was pre-airplay, and what I would do is I had my computer sitting on my network

00:30:36   with iTunes running, and I had my Airport Express sitting, also on my network, connected

00:30:41   to my stereo.

00:30:42   And what I would do is I would use the iTunes remote to say, "Hey, iTunes on my computer,

00:30:46   go ahead and play such and such album on the Airport Express," which would then get it

00:30:49   to come out via the stereo.

00:30:52   At the time, this was unreal.

00:30:54   This was magical because I could be downstairs, my computer upstairs, they're all connected

00:31:00   via some sort of network via Wi-Fi or wires or whatever, and I could get music to come

00:31:04   out of my stereo that was being streamed off my computer.

00:31:07   It was amazing.

00:31:08   And you can still do all of that today, as far as I know.

00:31:11   Steven, interrupt me when you're ready.

00:31:12   But not many people do because AirPlay is so much easier.

00:31:16   And I don't even have a HomePod in the house, I haven't even really played with AirPlay

00:31:19   too much but but even just regular airplay will do a lot of this so much easier my other

00:31:25   list of apps Shazam which I still use from time to time I guess it's built into Siri

00:31:30   so I guess I could remove it but to be honest I don't even know how to kick it off I guess

00:31:33   what am I listening to or something I don't I don't know if it is yet or I'm Apple bot

00:31:37   Shazam less than a year ago like pretty recently right I'm not actually sure if you can ask

00:31:43   Siri what music is is playing but uh I don't know John do you know no I don't but it's

00:31:49   The deal is not closed yet because it's being investigated by the European Union. So I

00:31:53   It's not it's still not 100% official yet. Oh

00:31:57   all right, so moving on my AT&T which is may but you know, I

00:32:03   Switched from Verizon AT&T because of the iPhone and this was at the time. This was a terrible decision because at the time

00:32:11   Verizon was everywhere in AT&T was effectively nowhere and so

00:32:17   For the first year or two that I had an iPhone my AT&T was used less to check data or call or text message usage

00:32:24   And more to just mark places where I didn't have service

00:32:27   I was actually just talking to Erin the other day and

00:32:30   remembering about what it was like when I had only 200 text messages per month and

00:32:35   I remember begging her to you know, don't you think I could upgrade to the unlimited text message per month plan?

00:32:40   Don't you think it's time? I'm always bumping up to my 200 messages each month

00:32:44   Do you guys remember those days or did you always have like unlimited messages from day one? No, I remember those days

00:32:49   So it was yeah, I had limited text for a long time

00:32:52   Yeah, I think I probably did too and then now it's so funny to think about like I message just uses your data

00:32:57   Like I don't yep, right? I don't know the last time I thought about that

00:33:00   Exactly, exactly. My last three Facebook is obvious. I still use it from time to time

00:33:06   I very rarely post but I do look you know once every day every couple days see what like high school friends are up to

00:33:11   And things like that

00:33:12   Dropbox, I don't use the app very often on iOS, but Dropbox is still a critical part of my life

00:33:18   Every single day mostly on the Mac and so that's still there and finally one password

00:33:24   Which I got on that train reasonably early. It was a little over a year after I bought my phone

00:33:29   And so I had an old old old version of one password with a hilariously ancient looking icon

00:33:36   And so that was my top six that I could come up with that I feel I still use from time to time today

00:33:42   Yeah, I think I think your set is probably pretty representative at least of like nerdy

00:33:48   John what about you? Yeah, it was interesting to look at Casey's list because I actually do have my AT&T on my phone right now

00:33:57   And I'm not exactly sure why I think you know

00:34:00   It's one of those things where you go to check your bill every now and then and I think they they con you into

00:34:05   downloading it, but I don't really use it. Mine, I guess, are Google, and that's used

00:34:13   primarily to authenticate when I'm signing in with two-factor authentication into a Google

00:34:18   account. I don't use the app for searching by itself, usually. Drafts, which, not a first-day

00:34:26   app, but an app that's been on my phone since it came out, and it's on version 5.3 now,

00:34:33   I use it for all sorts of, you know, just ephemeral texts, putting,

00:34:37   creating drafts of various things that might end up in an email or a tweet or,

00:34:40   or wherever. And then tweet bot,

00:34:43   tweet bot has been my main Twitter client since I started using an iOS device.

00:34:48   I think, uh, I have used Twitter ethic from time to time,

00:34:53   but tweet bot is the one that I have always come back to in the end and

00:34:58   Instagram. Uh, I am,

00:35:01   I think a more recent, heavier user of Instagram

00:35:05   for a long time, it was off my phone,

00:35:07   but I had it in the early days, abandoned it for a while,

00:35:10   and now I've in the last six to nine months

00:35:13   have been back into it.

00:35:14   And that's been around for a pretty long time too.

00:35:16   - Yeah, you know, to build on that very quickly,

00:35:18   I was spending a lot of time on Instagram,

00:35:20   particularly when I was overseas.

00:35:22   I don't know if it's just me,

00:35:24   it sounds like maybe not John,

00:35:25   but the more time I spend on Instagram these days,

00:35:29   the more I enjoy it, whereas the more time I spend,

00:35:32   I know this is not new, but the more time I spend

00:35:34   on Twitter, the more I hate myself.

00:35:35   And just the other day, I was sitting there

00:35:37   scrolling through Instagram and I thought to myself,

00:35:40   I just really, really like this app.

00:35:43   And everything about this app makes me happy.

00:35:45   I mean, obviously there's things I could complain about

00:35:47   with regard to the app, like the algorithmic timeline

00:35:49   and things like that, but by and large,

00:35:52   there's nothing about Instagram, be it the app,

00:35:55   the community, et cetera, that really just gets on my nerves

00:35:59   yet Twitter, almost everything about it gets on my nerves.

00:36:02   And yet like a junkie, I still go to it all the time.

00:36:05   But everything about Instagram makes me happy these days.

00:36:06   And it was one of those moments where I wasn't just,

00:36:08   I wasn't like evaluating my usage of Instagram.

00:36:10   I was just sitting there playing with the app

00:36:12   and I thought to myself, man, do I really love Instagram?

00:36:14   And I feel like they've brought in new features.

00:36:17   You know, they've basically aped Snapchat left and right,

00:36:20   but in a way that an old man like me can understand.

00:36:22   And so I don't use Instagram stories

00:36:24   during my day-to-day life, but oh man, when I'm traveling,

00:36:27   It's so much fun to kind of like be able to share that in a fun way and in an ephemeral way that disappears

00:36:32   So everything about Instagram, I mean it went on my phone

00:36:35   Relatively early after it was released and I just love that darn app so much

00:36:39   Yeah

00:36:40   I think Instagram is one of those places for me right now where I go out of my way to find more interesting things to

00:36:45   Follow whereas Twitter Twitter it's all about filtering out the noise and the unpleasantness and you know

00:36:52   All I do is create mutes when I'm on Twitter and one on Instagram

00:36:56   I try to find people to follow so I mean, I think there's something to that for sure Casey. Yep. Yep completely agree

00:37:02   I mean mine mine followers in line with y'all's

00:37:04   iTunes remote one password both very early as well as instapaper, which I still use

00:37:11   They are unfortunately still not available in a bunch of European

00:37:15   Countries because they are not GDPR compliant. I think I

00:37:20   Tweeted about that when we were traveling and a lot of people are like, oh my god, what are they doing with your data?

00:37:25   You got to leave. I don't know if it's so much that or is that the Instapaper just doesn't have

00:37:30   A staff of people working on it anymore. I don't know how many people working on it was acquired by Pinterest

00:37:36   At least one of the developers who was working on it under its previous owner went with it

00:37:41   but it just doesn't seem like Instapaper has the horsepower behind it at once did which is

00:37:47   worrisome as it's been on my home screen as long as it's been around in the same spot actually and

00:37:53   And it's an app I use almost every day.

00:37:56   I don't know what I would do if it went away,

00:37:59   but now that's in the back of my head.

00:38:02   But you know, a lot of these other apps,

00:38:05   they've sort of come and gone,

00:38:06   and I think that's okay, right?

00:38:07   I think that part of the story of the App Store is

00:38:10   you have these like core, well-known apps

00:38:13   that are there for the whole time

00:38:15   that you really rely on every day.

00:38:18   You put on your home screen once

00:38:20   and they're there for years and years.

00:38:22   Then there are other apps that, you know,

00:38:23   especially games or little like utilities or social media networks that

00:38:28   don't make it that you use for a period of time and then you replace it with

00:38:32   something else or that thing just sort of goes away quietly and I think that

00:38:37   both of those types of apps are important for the App Store ecosystem on

00:38:43   a whole because it they serve different needs and I think with things like

00:38:47   subscriptions Apple is trying to get more developers to a place where I get

00:38:52   Dell in this app and I can use it for years and years because the developer has the financial

00:38:58   ability to work on it, you know, for years and years and isn't going to be stuck abandoning

00:39:03   it because they can't afford to work on it. And so I wonder, you know, now, in another

00:39:08   10 years, you know, what apps are we downloading in 2018, that we're still going to be using

00:39:12   in 2028? And it's really hard to guess. I don't want to guess here. But I think about

00:39:19   sometimes just wondering like, you know, it's something like

00:39:22   instapaper one password. It didn't grow to the size that

00:39:26   they did, because they were there on day one. Is that

00:39:29   impossible now? But then you look at something like Instagram

00:39:33   or something like I don't know, like overcast that was years

00:39:37   later, but now is really large, because it's a good app with,

00:39:41   you know, people care about it, developers care about it. And I

00:39:44   just I think those dynamics, while they're different than

00:39:46   than they were in 2008, I think some of the core stuff

00:39:50   may always be the same.

00:39:52   - Yeah, I agree with that, Steven.

00:39:53   I found, I was a little surprised at how few apps

00:39:57   I have today that I'm still using that I used 10 years ago,

00:40:01   but they do turn over quickly,

00:40:03   and there's always the latest and greatest.

00:40:05   I mean, Instapaper is probably one of the first

00:40:08   third-party apps that I ever purchased on iOS,

00:40:12   at least as soon as it came out,

00:40:14   'cause I was using it when it was still a web service.

00:40:17   And I tried Out Pocket maybe 18 months ago

00:40:21   because I haven't been real confident

00:40:24   that Pinterest is really going to support Instapaper

00:40:27   and I think some of the GDPR stuff tends to support that.

00:40:32   And I haven't gone back,

00:40:33   but it was one of my early favorites.

00:40:36   - All right, so we have some more stuff to talk about,

00:40:38   but we have another break here.

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00:42:49   So the App Store was really only one third

00:42:54   of what Apple launched this week in July of 2008.

00:42:59   It was a very, very busy week.

00:43:02   You had the iPhone 3G, you had the App Store,

00:43:07   you had iPhone OS 2, and you also had MobileMe,

00:43:12   which in hindsight didn't go super well.

00:43:17   I actually just spent some time writing a deal

00:43:20   about the legacy of MobileMe and sort of how it earned

00:43:23   that legacy, 'cause I think people sort of joke at it

00:43:28   and joke about it, but really it was really pretty bad.

00:43:32   had outages and like data loss and stuff it wasn't good. But I was reminded of all

00:43:38   this and thinking about this date in 2008 I was working as a Mac genius and

00:43:43   I've told the story before but basically all these things launched more or less

00:43:48   at the same time. You had the new iPhone, you had the new software, you had the App

00:43:52   Store. I believe MobileMe was like a couple of days later but basically

00:43:56   basically the same time. And Apple had instituted a new sales policy. So with

00:44:02   the first iPhone, we all remember those long lines, right, like news helicopters

00:44:06   circling Apple stores. Then you just basically you bought an iPhone and

00:44:11   you walked out with it and then you plugged it into iTunes on your Mac or PC

00:44:15   at home and activated it at home. And of course we all know that AT&T activation

00:44:20   servers basically fell over. They couldn't keep up with the demand. But hey,

00:44:24   you were at home, it was no big deal. But it was still pretty bad. I people waited days to activate

00:44:29   their phones. And remember, this phone was only sold in the US in very, very select countries, it

00:44:35   was not the worldwide phone that it is today. The iPhone 3g was different, you had to activate the

00:44:41   phone in the store. The iPhone 3g did roll out to more countries than the original phone. That was

00:44:47   something Apple is very proud of and its keynote. But I think this was partially to cut down on

00:44:53   people buying these phones and then selling them on the gray market or you know selling them to

00:45:00   people in other countries and having them jailbroken and all this stuff. Apple wanted more control

00:45:05   so they had in-store activation and that was really great if you were on the east coast when

00:45:13   the phone went on sale but as time marched across the continent and those servers had more and more

00:45:19   demand on them, even by the time it got to Central Time, where I was, basically

00:45:25   you couldn't activate a phone. And it was part Apple's fault, it was part AT&T's

00:45:29   fault, but we had all these people stuck in the store, let alone everyone trying

00:45:33   to like figure out the App Store and then people coming in a few days later

00:45:36   or a week later saying, "I, you know, signed up for the MobileMe free trial and it

00:45:42   ate all my contacts," or "I haven't gotten email in two days, what's the deal with

00:45:46   that like all of these issues and it was really I think a learning moment for

00:45:53   Apple. There's this email from Steve Jobs about this and it's about MobileMe in

00:45:59   particular but in it he says you know maybe we should have even rolled out

00:46:02   MobileMe slower. Clearly it was a mistake to do all of this at once and we see

00:46:07   Apple now handling this much better where they have for the last several

00:46:13   years released a new iOS version, you know, a few days before the new iPhones start shipping,

00:46:20   right? So they have sort of two waves that people upgrading old phones, and they have new phones

00:46:25   activating, sort of divorcing those dates a little bit. You see on the on the App Store itself,

00:46:33   developers can select a rolled release schedule. They've really built in more tools to help this

00:46:40   sort of thing from all crashing down at once. But MobileMe was bad. Take all the launch

00:46:46   stuff away. It was really buggy. It was slow. It had lots of outages. Again, very buggy

00:46:53   release. They were able to overcome a lot of that in its three-year lifespan, but clearly

00:46:58   the damage was done. There's this joke when they introduced iCloud. Steve Jobs said, "Why

00:47:02   would you want this? We're the people who brought you MobileMe." And developers are

00:47:06   laughing at WWDC. But it's true, Apple had a real problem and iCloud actually inherited

00:47:11   a lot of those problems. The core mail contacts calendars for MobileMe were rolled into iCloud.

00:47:17   But you know, iCloud has been around a long time now and I'm curious what parts of iCloud

00:47:26   the two of you use. But before we get there, were you guys around for the MobileMe days?

00:47:31   Did you experience some of these outages or has it just been like a nightmare you've heard

00:47:35   about other people? I never really used MobileMe. I was aware of it. I was certainly around during

00:47:42   this time, but I never really used it. I'm pretty sure I have a me.com email address, but I used it

00:47:53   as little as possible because I heard so many problems with it. I didn't, at the time, trust

00:47:59   MobileMe to do any of the sort of syncing things that I would want to do. I was using Gmail for my

00:48:03   email and I still am although it's Google Apps on my domain and so I

00:48:08   didn't really need an email address the only thing I maybe could have used was

00:48:11   contact syncing but I just did that you know via I just did that via iTunes

00:48:17   which actually worked okay and I'd never really dabbled with it at all did you

00:48:22   John yeah I did I actually was a dot Mac subscriber back in the day I used that

00:48:27   and then I moved over to yeah I have a dot Mac address and I switched over to

00:48:33   MobileMe and had some of the problems. I mean, syncing would get out of whack fairly regularly

00:48:39   and you'd have to do the dance, which unfortunately got inherited by iCloud where you'd have to

00:48:44   sign out on all your devices and then sign back in one at a time and try to figure out

00:48:49   which one had the canonical information to make sure that everything was preserved and

00:48:55   synced properly across devices. I didn't have data loss or some of the real horrible things

00:49:01   heard about at the time, but I had a family plan for it and had, you know, it was a lot

00:49:07   fewer devices back in those days, but at least an iMac and my wife's iPhone and iPod touch,

00:49:13   you know, things like that on it. It worked okay, except for when I would have to do that

00:49:17   special log out of everything dance and try to get everything syncing again.

00:49:21   Yeah, I used it. I too had been a .Mac subscriber and I had a lot of these issues, but I sort

00:49:29   of powered through. I eventually got fed up though and basically moved everything to Gmail.

00:49:34   That's still where all of my stuff is today. The idea that all this stuff would basically

00:49:39   sync wirelessly, coming from a world where we were all plugging into iTunes, like move

00:49:44   our calendar appointments over. It really did seem like the future, but Apple was ahead

00:49:49   of the curve, but only by a little bit. Very quickly, you could do stuff with your Google

00:49:53   account with third-party apps and then Apple basically baked that in.

00:49:58   And now, really, if you have a Gmail account with contacts and calendars and stuff, it's

00:50:02   really a first-party thing on the iPhone and the iPad, right?

00:50:06   Like iOS and the Mac.

00:50:07   You just plug in your credentials and all your stuff just syncs.

00:50:10   And I think that's really great that Apple supports those services.

00:50:13   Yeah, you don't get Cernet features, you don't get push email, but some of that's on Google,

00:50:18   some of it's on Apple.

00:50:19   I was going to say my iCloud email is pretty much unused.

00:50:23   I mean, I have it, but it's not used by many people.

00:50:27   It's really Gmail for me, both a personal account and then

00:50:30   a work account.

00:50:31   Yes, so let's talk about that a little bit.

00:50:33   So like I said, I use iCloud for a lot of stuff,

00:50:37   iCloud photos in particular.

00:50:40   I use iCloud for a bunch of syncing stuff.

00:50:43   I do not really use iCloud file stuff,

00:50:48   like iCloud Drive because everyone I work with

00:50:52   uses Dropbox 'cause I need shared folders.

00:50:54   Dropbox basically is the file system on my computers.

00:50:57   I use Apple Music.

00:50:59   But I do use Gmail for my personal email and work stuff.

00:51:03   And that is really because of the rules,

00:51:09   server-side rules you can do in Gmail.

00:51:12   They're far superior spam filtering.

00:51:13   It got to a point where my iCloud email

00:51:15   was just really unusable for spam reasons

00:51:19   and I couldn't direct things into folders

00:51:20   the way I wanted to on the server side.

00:51:23   And I don't know if they've really improved that,

00:51:25   I really haven't gone back 'cause I'm happy with Gmail.

00:51:28   But all the sort of sticky stuff,

00:51:31   like the kind of glues the Mac and iPhone together,

00:51:34   all that I'm using iCloud and I've been pretty happy

00:51:37   with it over the last couple years.

00:51:39   I've had issues here and there.

00:51:40   It's still too ambiguous to troubleshoot.

00:51:43   It's sort of a mystery box.

00:51:44   All you can do is tell it not to sync anymore and resync or sign out and sign back in.

00:51:50   There's no real troubleshooting.

00:51:52   But that's the way of the world now, I guess.

00:51:54   And I think that iCloud truly has outgrown the complaints of the early days of iCloud,

00:52:00   but especially the complaints of MobileMe.

00:52:02   I think it's pretty solid for most people.

00:52:06   What about you, Casey?

00:52:07   So I have been using iCloud Contact Sync for as long as I can remember.

00:52:16   And up until about a year ago, I want to say, it was working flawlessly.

00:52:21   About a year ago, I had that thing that everyone else seems to have where basically all of

00:52:26   their contacts got duplicated.

00:52:27   And I'm still over time weeding through all of them trying to kind of merge and consolidate

00:52:32   all of these things.

00:52:33   It may have been user error for all I know.

00:52:36   I don't think I did anything that would cause that problem, but that was very frustrating.

00:52:42   But in terms of just general, you know, what Apple cloud stuff do I use?

00:52:45   I actually dabbled just a smidge with iCloud Drive the other day.

00:52:49   In fact, we were talking, I believe, before we started recording about AirDrop, and it

00:52:53   occurred to me that I couldn't get AirDrop working on iOS 12, despite what I think I

00:52:57   told you earlier, Steven, and I ended up sending a picture to myself.

00:53:01   In fact, it might have been a picture of you that I put on Instagram via iCloud Drive.

00:53:05   And so I've been slightly dabbling with iCloud Drive recently.

00:53:09   I have a free account on Dropbox and I don't see myself moving to iCloud Drive entirely.

00:53:16   I've heard enough horror stories about it that it scares me.

00:53:19   But as an accessory, I'm using iCloud Drive from time to time.

00:53:22   I'm also putting some documents in there from time to time.

00:53:26   The other thing that I've used a lot and have really had no particular issue with is iTunes

00:53:30   Match.

00:53:31   And for those of you who don't recall, this came out a few years ago now.

00:53:34   And what this was, was you uploaded all of your music to Apple, or really any of the

00:53:39   music that Apple couldn't match within their own iTunes Music Store.

00:53:44   You would upload everything that they couldn't match, and you could stream it and/or download

00:53:48   it from all your other devices.

00:53:49   And it works out really nicely as your own personal Apple Music or Spotify setup.

00:53:54   And I still do use that.

00:53:56   I don't listen to iTunes Music that often.

00:53:58   I typically listen to Spotify.

00:54:00   But it is nice to have my entire library available as long as I'm not, maybe, I don't know, flying

00:54:05   over the Atlantic for some reason or another.

00:54:08   So I am pretty light on Apple Cloud services, but the ones I use tend to work really, really

00:54:12   well.

00:54:13   So I don't know, win some, lose some.

00:54:15   What about you, Jon?

00:54:16   So I use iCloud Drive a little bit.

00:54:20   I mean, for instance, I let things like Ulysses and Bear do their thing, syncing between devices

00:54:27   using iCloud Drive and save their documents in there.

00:54:31   And I'll also use numbers.

00:54:33   I don't like Excel.

00:54:36   Microsoft apps still give me a little bit of the willies.

00:54:38   I think it's from working back as a lawyer back in the day and having to deal with Windows.

00:54:44   But so I use numbers.

00:54:45   And so there are spreadsheets I have that I share with Federico, for instance, that

00:54:49   are shared over that.

00:54:51   But I also am painfully aware of a problem I think Myke had maybe about a year ago where

00:54:57   he lost a bunch of pages documents.

00:54:59   So I have a Hazel Rule set up on my Mac that's always running

00:55:02   that will look at that numbers document

00:55:04   and copy it out to Dropbox every now and then

00:55:06   so that I've got kind of like belt and suspenders

00:55:09   to make sure that that works.

00:55:11   And I haven't had those same problems,

00:55:13   but I guess I've got the peace of mind of knowing it's there.

00:55:17   But for the most part, I'm using Google services,

00:55:22   whether it's Docs, Sheets, or Forms,

00:55:25   for things like podcasting and the max stories,

00:55:29   the club max stories, newsletters,

00:55:31   and things like that.

00:55:32   I'm also using Dropbox for the vast majority of things

00:55:36   like screenshots, various project files,

00:55:40   sharing project files with Federico and other max stories

00:55:44   team members.

00:55:45   Those are the big things.

00:55:46   And I guess GitHub too, because the way

00:55:49   we deal with editing as a team is we sync everything

00:55:55   through GitHub and that way everybody has access to it and can make changes and see

00:55:59   the changes. Those are probably the primary ones that I use.

00:56:04   I love that you can mix and match as you need to. You can use a bunch of Apple stuff and

00:56:08   like one Google or one Dropbox thing or you can be all in on Google but just use a little

00:56:13   bit of iCloud. I think Apple's done a really good job at making those services and the

00:56:17   apps they interact with on their platforms sort of all get along for people who live

00:56:22   in multiple camps.

00:56:24   I don't even know if it's better if you use all Apple stuff or all Google stuff.

00:56:27   I think it's totally fine to mix and match them as you see fit.

00:56:32   For instance, my calendars are on iCloud because I have a lot of shared calendars with my significant

00:56:38   other and the family stuff.

00:56:41   It's nice to be able to have that on my device and I don't have to worry about is it Google,

00:56:46   is it iCloud, it all is there together.

00:56:49   It's funny to say that I actually treat my Google Calendar as the family calendar, which

00:56:57   is probably not the most efficient way of doing this.

00:56:59   And what I do is I actually sign into my Gmail account.

00:57:01   Again, it's actually Google Apps for my domain, but I sign into my Gmail account on Aaron's

00:57:04   phone but only turn on calendars for that account.

00:57:08   And then that is our shared family account.

00:57:11   And I think the smarter way of doing this would probably to be embrace iCloud.

00:57:14   But at this point, we've been doing this for like over a decade and I'm not about to change

00:57:18   anything you know what I mean but I have a very similar setup except on Google

00:57:22   instead of Apple. All right well we got some more stuff to talk about. We're almost

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00:59:22   So it is mid-July, kind of a quiet time for tech news, but the rumor mill is starting up and we

00:59:33   We have, of course, things like iPhone and iPad rumors,

00:59:38   but there's also a lot of rumors about Macs.

00:59:40   And I wanna talk to the two of you about this

00:59:42   because we are Mac guys and the iOS boys aren't here.

00:59:45   (laughing)

00:59:46   And they just have to listen to this,

00:59:48   suffer through it.

00:59:49   So, Ming-Chi Kuo, friend of the show,

00:59:51   really at this point, I would say, friend of the network,

00:59:54   has a new report out.

00:59:56   There's iPhone and iPad stuff in it.

01:00:00   Basically what we've heard about the iPhone,

01:00:01   remodels, what we've assumed about the iPad,

01:00:05   ditching the home button, ditching touch ID,

01:00:09   face ID coming, which is all really great.

01:00:12   But the Mac stuff, I think, is what we should talk about.

01:00:15   So in this report, and I'm gonna start with the big one,

01:00:20   Mac Mini processor upgrades expected this fall.

01:00:24   - What?

01:00:26   Unpossible, I tell you.

01:00:28   - I want one.

01:00:30   - Me too.

01:00:31   Mine will not run Mojave, my home media server,

01:00:34   and is dying anyways, so I'm in the market.

01:00:37   Federico's been in the market for a long time.

01:00:39   If all they do is put new processors in this thing,

01:00:43   and they don't change much else, I would be fine with it.

01:00:48   I would like to have Thunderbolt 3 in it,

01:00:50   even though my Drobo is Thunderbolt 2.

01:00:53   I would like faster speeds available to me

01:00:55   if I upgrade that Drobo at some point.

01:00:57   But I would be happy with any sign of life on the Mac Mini.

01:01:01   I don't expect that this is gonna be

01:01:02   like what Jason Snell wrote about,

01:01:03   about being super tiny, totally different.

01:01:06   I expect minimum effort put forth by Apple on this Mac Mini.

01:01:11   What do you think?

01:01:12   - Yeah, I tend to agree.

01:01:13   I mean, it would be cool if it was really super tiny,

01:01:17   but I'm not, at least personally,

01:01:19   I'm not looking for super tiny.

01:01:20   It's small enough as it is.

01:01:22   It doesn't take up a lot of space.

01:01:24   And I just want something that if I get a new Mac Mini,

01:01:28   if I get at least a decent configuration

01:01:31   that'll last for another five years.

01:01:32   I use mine as kind of a home server like you do,

01:01:36   not really an entertainment server,

01:01:38   but it's there doing things like running Plex

01:01:42   and running Hazel and running Dev and Think

01:01:46   where it's doing things like pinging the Mac stories RSS

01:01:50   and creating a personal database

01:01:52   of every article that's written.

01:01:54   Those sorts of things.

01:01:55   I used to when I worked downtown Chicago,

01:01:58   it used to be the Mac that I used to do my side gig

01:02:01   when I wasn't working as a lawyer.

01:02:04   But now it sits in my basement in a corner,

01:02:07   headless and just does these other things.

01:02:09   And it's getting to the point where it's not going to,

01:02:13   it'll run Mojave, but it won't,

01:02:16   I expect it probably won't run more than one

01:02:19   or maybe two more versions of macOS.

01:02:22   So I'm in the market for even a new one too.

01:02:25   - Yeah.

01:02:26   - I feel like I want a Mac mini, but I don't even know why.

01:02:30   I just, there's something about it

01:02:31   that just seems so appealing,

01:02:33   even though I don't currently

01:02:36   have any particular need for one.

01:02:37   Like I guess I could offload my Plex server

01:02:40   to be on a Mac mini instead of my iMac,

01:02:43   but I don't think there's anything,

01:02:46   there's no gap in my world that an iMac mini would fill.

01:02:50   I just feel like it's such a neat computer.

01:02:52   I just kind of want one.

01:02:54   Well, assuming it's refreshed in any way, shape, or form.

01:02:58   You can have it run your unit tests in the background.

01:03:01   That is true.

01:03:01   That is actually a very good point.

01:03:03   I didn't even think about that.

01:03:03   But yes, you're exactly right.

01:03:04   That is legitimately something that could be done with it.

01:03:07   I could set up an Xcode build server if I so desired.

01:03:09   Yeah.

01:03:10   And maybe the quad core would come back and really help you

01:03:12   out with all that work.

01:03:14   Yeah, some of it.

01:03:15   While we're dreaming, right?

01:03:17   Up next, we have notebooks.

01:03:20   We have MacBook Pro processor upgrades

01:03:24   expected. So Intel has six core CPUs that Apple could be using. They're ready now.

01:03:30   You can buy them in a bunch of Windows notebooks. I don't know where the Apple

01:03:34   community started thinking that Intel didn't have CPUs ready. Like, they're ready

01:03:38   and Apple just needs to integrate them and get the power and heat. You know, everything they

01:03:45   got to do right, but they are out there. So I would love to see what a six core

01:03:51   15 inch MacBook Pro could look like.

01:03:54   That machine is not for me.

01:03:56   I have a 2015 15 inch and I really think I'm probably

01:03:59   gonna go back to a 13 with the new ones.

01:04:02   I like having the 15 when I'm at my destination,

01:04:05   but I hate traveling with it and I think I'm gonna just

01:04:07   kind of give up some screen space for something

01:04:09   that's more portable.

01:04:11   But there are people, Jon, including you,

01:04:13   who like, you work on a MacBook Pro workstation, right?

01:04:16   Like you have a display and a keyboard and mouse,

01:04:17   but it's powered by a MacBook Pro.

01:04:19   And that I think by far is the most common pro Mac setup.

01:04:24   And having more cores on a machine

01:04:30   that's plugged in all the time would be great.

01:04:33   And so I hope Apple does that.

01:04:35   That Intel CPU could also come to the iMac,

01:04:38   which we're gonna talk about in a minute.

01:04:40   But of course the question is

01:04:42   what do they do with the keyboard?

01:04:43   Do we think that a revised MacBook Pro

01:04:47   is gonna have the same keyboard

01:04:50   that they've now more or less

01:04:52   opened repair extension program for

01:04:54   and have admitted they're bad,

01:04:56   or I mean, I think they've gotta have some improvement.

01:04:58   What do you think?

01:04:59   - I think it'll probably be a lightly revised version

01:05:04   of what we already have.

01:05:05   Like I don't see them ditching,

01:05:07   I always get this wrong,

01:05:08   it's the butterfly switches that are current,

01:05:10   is that correct?

01:05:11   And it was scissor switches before, right?

01:05:12   Do I have that right?

01:05:14   - Yeah. - Okay.

01:05:14   So I don't see them ditching the butterfly switches

01:05:17   I know that's probably gonna make a lot of people angry, but if it were me, I would guess

01:05:21   that they would revise or refine the switches in such a way that, you know, a microscopic

01:05:27   speck of dust wouldn't utterly incapacitate an entire key/computer.

01:05:32   But I think for those of us who are waiting for the return to the 2015 style keyboards,

01:05:37   I think you're waiting, you're gonna be waiting for a long time, a long time for a train that

01:05:40   just ain't coming.

01:05:41   So we'll see what happens.

01:05:42   But I would expect that we're going to see a refresh sooner rather than later.

01:05:49   In fact, I would be slightly surprised if they didn't make it in time for college purchasing,

01:05:54   which is happening now and especially over the next month or so.

01:05:58   So who knows what will actually happen, but I think we'll get beefier processors, maybe

01:06:04   more and/or beefier RAM, maybe more and/or beefier SSDs, and I think we'll get a lightly

01:06:11   revised version of the keyboard.

01:06:15   Yeah, I agree with you.

01:06:16   It's not going to be what we've had.

01:06:18   It'll be something new, probably a variant of this butterfly design, but one that I think

01:06:23   is more forgiving to a single atom of dust.

01:06:28   Yeah, I think that's right.

01:06:29   I think they do need to do something with the keyboards, but I don't think it's going

01:06:33   to be something that's completely out of the ordinary.

01:06:36   I definitely want more cores, though, especially having just finished editing multiple episodes

01:06:41   episodes of interview episodes for App Stories, the more cores the better. I mean, when I'm

01:06:48   processing audio, four cores is great, but more would be better.

01:06:52   Yeah, and remember on the 13-inch, they're all dual-core, and in the same family of Intel

01:06:58   processors, there is a quad-core that Apple could use in the 13-inch, and if they do that,

01:07:03   that would be the machine I buy. Quad-core to get that power for when I do edit on the

01:07:08   road and 13 inch so I can actually use it on an airplane or use it someplace

01:07:13   so I don't have a table. The MacBook is also in this report with a processor

01:07:17   upgrade. Yes please, like my wife has an original MacBook I'd like to upgrade her.

01:07:23   The current one is nice it's better than what she's got but I really like one

01:07:28   more jump. I don't think the MacBook is gonna change past that they're not gonna

01:07:32   add a second port they're not gonna reduce the price drastically and make it

01:07:35   the new MacBook Air. I think the MacBook is kind of on this side track of if you

01:07:41   really want a thin and light this is what we have to offer but the the

01:07:45   trade-off is power of course and so any any additional power they can put into

01:07:49   that tiny body would be welcomed by many I think including you Casey right you're

01:07:53   a MacBook One user? Yeah I love my MacBook adorable my MacBook One and I

01:07:58   I bought this just after WWDC last year and really I wouldn't say that I feel constrained

01:08:07   by the power that often.

01:08:08   There are certainly moments that it happens, but day to day I'm not.

01:08:11   That being said, if there was an even moderate spec bump in terms of processing, in terms

01:08:17   of the CPU, I would probably try to scrape together the money to get a new one and hand

01:08:22   this one off to Aaron because Aaron's using a many year old MacBook Air that has been

01:08:27   underwater a couple times.

01:08:28   I have no idea how that happened, none at all.

01:08:31   Weird.

01:08:32   And so, um, and so it's probably time for her to get an upgrade anyway, and so I would

01:08:35   pass this down to her and get myself a new one if at all possible.

01:08:39   But we'll see what happens.

01:08:40   I mean, again, it's not something that I feel I desperately need, but any little bit would

01:08:45   help.

01:08:46   And I think I, I think I got that kind of from Underscore, from David Smith, who uses

01:08:50   a MacBook as his travel computer almost always, and he is basically getting new ones every

01:08:54   single time they spec bump in any way shape or form just to eke out that little extra

01:08:59   bit of performance whenever he can.

01:09:00   Yeah, which I think is totally reasonable because they have made pretty big gains with

01:09:10   the MacBook but it's so far behind the other machines because they use that slower core

01:09:16   end processor.

01:09:17   It would be nice to see more.

01:09:20   In that vein, this rumor has,

01:09:22   this is the most wishy-washy part to me,

01:09:24   a new low-price notebook believes that Apple

01:09:29   is designing something new for this

01:09:32   to replace the MacBook Air,

01:09:34   which sits in that very coveted $1,000 price point.

01:09:38   Originally, he had said that the MacBook Air

01:09:41   was gonna get an update,

01:09:42   and it seems like maybe he's changed his mind there.

01:09:44   This is something new.

01:09:45   This is really interesting to me

01:09:46   because if you make a small retina notebook,

01:09:51   you've made the MacBook.

01:09:54   And if you make a slightly thicker retina machine,

01:09:58   you've made the 13 inch MacBook Pro.

01:10:01   So like part of that is a branding problem

01:10:03   because I truly believe the non touch bar 13 inch

01:10:07   two port machine should be the MacBook Air.

01:10:08   It uses the same class of processors the MacBook Air uses,

01:10:12   the 15 watt TDP where the touch bar machines

01:10:15   a higher TDP processor, the naming's all screwed up,

01:10:19   but something new to hit that price point,

01:10:25   you know, what could Apple take,

01:10:28   say they start with the MacBook,

01:10:30   what could they take away to make a machine cheaper,

01:10:33   and I honestly don't know,

01:10:35   like make it out of plastic I guess,

01:10:36   but I don't think Apple really wants to do that anymore.

01:10:40   You can't take any ports away 'cause it has one port,

01:10:42   you can't make it any smaller 'cause it's only 12 inches.

01:10:44   Yeah, what do you do?

01:10:46   And so I'd struggle to see what this product could be,

01:10:50   but I'm very interested in it because Apple needs a machine

01:10:54   that thousand dollar price point, or even below,

01:10:56   remember the 11 inch Map of Care even dipped to $899.

01:11:00   Seeing what they could do there now,

01:11:03   I think would be really interesting to see.

01:11:05   It's not a machine for me, per se,

01:11:07   but it's a machine that I want to exist,

01:11:10   because we've all had this situation, right?

01:11:12   Where someone asks you what machine should I buy

01:11:13   for my kid and like, I honestly just tell him

01:11:16   the MacBook Air nine times out of 10 because it's reliable,

01:11:19   it has a bunch of ports, they don't need dongles,

01:11:21   but I'm like, well, you gotta buy a four year old computer,

01:11:24   right, like it has old processors and old, you know,

01:11:27   slow RAM, slower disk access, and that kinda stinks,

01:11:31   but there's really nothing, there's not another good answer

01:11:33   right now, and Apple needs a good answer to that,

01:11:35   and so I really hope this pans out,

01:11:37   I hope there's something good here

01:11:38   and that people are attracted to it.

01:11:40   - Yeah, I don't know, I just don't feel like

01:11:42   there's a big gap just like you like you said, and I don't want

01:11:45   to take the attention away from my beloved adorable. I just want

01:11:48   new adorables.

01:11:49   It is adorable.

01:11:52   Come to the iMac a significant display upgrade along a

01:11:58   processor update. Again, they could bring that six core to the

01:12:02   high end iMac that would put it near the iMac Pro in terms of

01:12:06   cores, but it's a different, different type of processor is

01:12:10   doing different things. I think there's still room to separate the iMac and iMac Pro.

01:12:14   But the significant display upgrade is interesting and Steve Trout Smith

01:12:20   tweeted earlier that he thinks this means 120 Hertz Pro motion coming to the

01:12:27   the iMac. He was unsure about the bandwidth needed for that but that may

01:12:35   be problematic there. It may not even be possible yet. But Apple's done some

01:12:40   tricky stuff with like retina displays like using kind of two internal

01:12:44   connectors to drive the display and maybe something custom they could do. But

01:12:48   it does feel like if 120 Hertz ProMotion is coming to any Mac that it would be

01:12:53   the iMac or iMac Pro now, the Mac Pro later. Because people are developing

01:13:00   content for displays that refresh that quickly now and the Mac can't do it. And

01:13:05   And if you want to create content and really see what it's going to be like, having the

01:13:09   device you create the content on, the device the content will play on, having the same

01:13:13   capabilities, of course it would be really great and really helpful.

01:13:17   So this makes sense to me, but again, it seems like the technology, at least what's on the

01:13:22   market now, can't make this possible.

01:13:25   But Apple sort of excels at doing weird Mac display stuff, and maybe they could make it

01:13:31   work somehow.

01:13:32   Is that something, Stephen, that you think would be useful to you when you're doing your

01:13:35   YouTube videos?

01:13:37   No, I don't think so.

01:13:40   Because I don't -- so in video, really, like, the highest frame rate most people upload

01:13:45   is 60.

01:13:46   I think that maybe the highest you can go to on YouTube, actually, is 60 frames per

01:13:49   second.

01:13:51   I film and edit in 30 because I don't like the way 60 looks.

01:13:54   And actually, 120 hertz, like, ProMotion makes me sick to my stomach, so I have it turned

01:13:57   off on my iPad.

01:13:59   So I don't really care about this, but I'm thinking more about like people making like

01:14:03   VR content and games where that higher refresh rate is more important.

01:14:10   And so maybe there's room there for those type of users.

01:14:12   I don't know if it means if it's a big deal to like movie people.

01:14:19   But I don't know.

01:14:21   I just don't see the bandwidth there.

01:14:24   Like no, I haven't seen anyone crunch the numbers, which is exactly what Steve Trout

01:14:28   Smith said but I that is just a tremendous amount of data that has to happen very very

01:14:34   very quickly and I am super skeptical that today I'm not saying forever but today I'm

01:14:40   very very doubtful that we have anything that can push that kind of bandwidth.

01:14:45   It's a lot of data man. There's a lot of data. They could do it on the iPad because Apple is

01:14:52   in charge of everything in there right and it's a smaller display of course. When you're dealing

01:14:57   with other manufacturers that's harder to do and even to drive the 27 inch

01:15:02   round displays they're using a custom timing controller and so they can do

01:15:06   certain things but again if there's just a limitation of like how many electrons

01:15:10   you can move in a second that maybe not even Apple can can reach that yet but

01:15:14   it's one to keep an eye on. I've saved the Apple watch for last because I think

01:15:21   I think it's in some ways more interesting

01:15:25   than the Max stuff.

01:15:26   I don't really mean that, but just in the sense

01:15:28   that he's talking about real form factor changes.

01:15:33   So two new models and sizes at 39.9 millimeters

01:15:38   and 45.2 millimeters right now,

01:15:40   and forever the Apple Watch has been 38 and 42 millimeter

01:15:45   with enhanced heart rate detection, et cetera, et cetera.

01:15:49   We had an email from a connected listener wondering when we thought an Apple Watch redesign

01:15:55   was going to happen.

01:15:56   And my answer was, I kind of think it's this year, like, we've seen now, really four models

01:16:02   with the same design.

01:16:03   In fact, they've gotten a little bit thicker over time.

01:16:06   It's imperceptible to the human eye, but you know, it is there.

01:16:10   But it just feels even the thickness was the same.

01:16:13   The design just looks dated.

01:16:16   Like I don't see many Apple watches in the wild, but over the last three or four months

01:16:21   when I do see them, I kind of fallen out of love with the way it looks on people's wrist

01:16:27   and including my own just because it's been the same for such a long time.

01:16:32   And if they make it bigger, does that you know, they have more surface areas allow them

01:16:37   to make it thinner.

01:16:38   Is it give them the ability to do something more interesting with the design?

01:16:43   I don't know, but it feels like to me at least we're due for something to change here, right?

01:16:48   I think it's coming sooner rather than later, but I don't know if I really dig these new

01:16:56   sizes.

01:16:57   Now of course it could come from shrinking bezels, which is what I would prefer, but

01:17:01   I have pretty small wrists and I think that the 42 millimeter is probably at the upper

01:17:08   edge of what I can put on my wrist without it looking really ridiculous.

01:17:12   And I think for Erin, the 38 millimeter that she has today is the same thing.

01:17:16   Like any bigger and it's gonna be kind of weird looking.

01:17:21   I do think it would be nice to have something thinner.

01:17:23   I do think it would be nice to have something that maybe looked a little different.

01:17:27   But I don't want to lose the band clasp size, which I mean certainly it can get a lot thinner

01:17:33   and still use the same band setup, or at least just eyeballing it anyway.

01:17:39   I am I am not liking the idea of the surface area of the watch getting bigger

01:17:44   Which is not what this says it just says that that that it will be bigger

01:17:48   It doesn't say if that's the screen the surface area or what but the idea of a physically larger watch a display fine

01:17:53   But a physically larger watch and sitting here now

01:17:56   I'm not into it, but we'll see if it happens and we'll see how big it is if and when it happens

01:18:00   Yeah, I agree. I mean I could I really want my Apple watch to get thinner

01:18:06   I want it to be maybe half as thin as it is right now.

01:18:10   And if you look at the bezels, I could see, I bet if you did the math, that if you brought

01:18:16   this edge to edge, it would be pretty close to what is predicted here.

01:18:21   But I agree, I don't see putting a larger surface area watch on my wrist.

01:18:26   I mean, 42mm is about as much as I personally would want.

01:18:30   Yeah, so we'll see where it ends up.

01:18:33   I think it's time for something to change.

01:18:36   So I guess we will see.

01:18:38   I'm really happy with the Series 3.

01:18:41   It's really, really fast.

01:18:44   The battery life's incredible.

01:18:46   I wouldn't want them to give any of that up in what we'll call the Series 4.

01:18:52   But again, Apple's really good at making things, especially like iOS devices, much more energy

01:18:59   efficient.

01:19:00   And that's how you get thinner.

01:19:01   You can have less battery and still run the same time.

01:19:03   Look at the iPad, right?

01:19:04   It's been 10 hours forever because it's gotten more efficient and they can pack everything

01:19:09   in tighter and get smaller but not give it the battery life.

01:19:12   So I expect the Apple Watch to follow that recipe eventually.

01:19:15   Maybe not this year, but eventually.

01:19:17   Well, I think that does it for episode 200 of Connected.

01:19:22   Jon, where can people find you on the internet?

01:19:26   So they can find me on Twitter at J-O-H-N-V-O-O-R-H-W-E-S.

01:19:31   That's Jon Voorhees.

01:19:32   And of course, always on MacStories.net writing and podcasting over at AppStories.net.

01:19:40   And Casey, what about you?

01:19:41   Sure, you can find me on the internet at CaseyLiss.com, on Twitter as CaseyLiss.

01:19:46   That's C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.

01:19:48   And you can also hear me talk with my friends Marco Arment and John Siracusa on ATP, the

01:19:53   accidental tech podcast at ATP FM. You can also if you wanted

01:19:58   to hear thoughts and feelings from me and your co founder Myke

01:20:01   Hurley, you can hear me on this very podcasting network on relay

01:20:04   FM at analog, which is a show that Myke and I have been doing

01:20:08   since the very first day of relay. And so you should check

01:20:11   that out.

01:20:11   And it'll be you and I on the next episode. So that's true.

01:20:14   Yes. That's right. So about our feelings. Yep. As you and I do.

01:20:19   I mean, we never talk about max you and me. It's just feelings.

01:20:21   That's right, or cars. A lot of car talk.

01:20:25   Well, I'd like to thank our sponsors this week, Squarespace, Casper, and Linode.

01:20:29   If you want to go check them out or any of the other links in the show notes, things we've talked about,

01:20:33   head over to the website, relay.fm/connected/200.

01:20:38   Those links are also in the podcast app you're using to listen to us on your iPhone, so go check those out.

01:20:44   If you're not familiar with John and Casey, I don't know how you're not, but go follow them on Twitter, go read their stuff.

01:20:50   Guys, thank you for joining me today.

01:20:52   But in our tradition, we have to say goodbye in turns.

01:20:58   So gentlemen, say goodbye.

01:21:04   - I'll see you later.

01:21:05   - Arrivederci.

01:21:06   (laughing)

01:21:09   - Oh boy, well.

01:21:11   - I tried, Federico's gonna kill me for that.

01:21:14   - Well, adios.

01:21:15   (laughing)