193: They Belong to the World Now


00:00:00   (upbeat music)

00:00:02   From Relay FM, this is Connected, episode 193.

00:00:12   It is brought to you this week by Linode, Skillshare,

00:00:15   and the Layers Conference.

00:00:16   I'm your host, Steven Hackett,

00:00:18   and I'm joined by my two friends in podcasting,

00:00:22   Myke Hurley, how are you?

00:00:23   - Good, are we friends in real life,

00:00:25   or just in podcasting?

00:00:27   - Well, we're friends in real life,

00:00:28   but today we're just friends in podcasting.

00:00:29   because that's as close as we're gonna get today.

00:00:32   And we have Mr. Federico Vittucci as well.

00:00:34   - Hi, I don't think we're friends in podcasting,

00:00:37   but we are in real life, so.

00:00:39   - We're not friends in podcasting?

00:00:41   - We have a--

00:00:43   - Well, what is that word, like the word for when

00:00:45   that somebody is like, they're not like an enemy?

00:00:48   - Like a friend is. - It's like an antagonist?

00:00:51   - An antagonist. (laughs)

00:00:53   - Yeah, is that what I'm going for?

00:00:56   Okay, I'm Stevens antagonist. Yeah podcasting like you know enemies, but you're not friends you kind of like

00:01:03   Battle it out. You know we challenge each other. We challenge each other. We have joined each other challenge yourself do it by Friday

00:01:10   Let's just move on. I'm the different

00:01:13   Different people different everything yeah, okay good news good news boys

00:01:19   The Logitech crayon is now on sale if you're a school that is good news I

00:01:25   Guess look look for them to pop up on eBay at some point in the next couple of that's the thing, right?

00:01:30   That's what I was just gonna say that how how long is it until they start getting smuggled out?

00:01:34   Let's see. Let's see if there's any up there now

00:01:37   eBay project crayon

00:01:41   For contacts. Do you say this is the the Apple pencil that is not an Apple pencil because it's made by Logitech

00:01:47   But it uses the same tech

00:01:48   What a kind of the same tech as the Apple pencil and also some different cool text tech

00:01:53   but it only works, if you remember, it only works with that exact iPad, like it doesn't

00:01:59   work with any iPad, which makes it less appealing. Everyone was super excited about it, but it

00:02:04   makes it less appealing because we want to use iPad Pros instead.

00:02:07   I've not found it on eBay, but I did find the Logitech mouse user manual.

00:02:12   Good.

00:02:13   So if you need to...

00:02:14   How did you go from the Logitech Crayon to this book?

00:02:17   I searched for Logitech Crayon, nothing showed up, but this was further down the page. This

00:02:22   This book looks like it's about a hundred pages long, showing you how to use a mouse

00:02:26   in 1987 or so.

00:02:29   So that'll be in the show notes if you're interested.

00:02:31   You know why you found it?

00:02:32   Because in the description it says that it doesn't have marks from pencils or ink or

00:02:38   crayons.

00:02:39   Oh yeah, that's how it...

00:02:40   It's in good plus.

00:02:41   It's in good plus condition.

00:02:43   That's good.

00:02:44   Yeah, that's good plus.

00:02:45   That's my favorite condition.

00:02:47   The good plus?

00:02:48   I know, yeah.

00:02:50   If anyone buys this book and brings it to WWDC, the three of us will sign it for you.

00:02:56   What are we doing?

00:02:57   I mean I would literally sign anything, but...

00:03:00   Remember when you signed an iPhone?

00:03:02   I've signed a few iPhones now.

00:03:06   I signed a Pixel.

00:03:08   I've signed a bunch of stuff.

00:03:09   I like signing things.

00:03:11   Okay.

00:03:12   Okay, so buy the mouse book and bring it to the live show and Myke will sign it for you

00:03:18   and Steven will steal it from you. I bought my own copy boys. Myke, you found this and

00:03:26   put it in the show notes. This is an amazing leak about the new iPhone SE. Do you want

00:03:32   to walk us through this little bit of information? Project name, blank iPhone SE. This is from

00:03:41   Evan Blass who is evleaks who used now was this person work up boy genius report am i

00:03:50   remembering this correctly was it venture beat i don't know no they they work somewhere

00:03:56   but now they're like they've they're a leaker with with seems to have really good sources

00:04:02   everywhere and posts a lot of like pieces of information that end up working out to

00:04:08   be true, right? I mean, they seem to have a pretty good track record. And what this

00:04:13   looks like is an inventory system somewhere has picked up a 2018 version of

00:04:20   the iPhone SE. Yeah, so there you go. Yeah, so I mean to be fair it looks like any

00:04:26   standard text editor. I mean if you open pages and you create a table and you

00:04:30   write... Yeah, I mean, okay, so like it's not proof, like he's not showing us a

00:04:34   a thing, but if he tweets that, it makes me feel like that it's real, right? Like, just

00:04:40   because he has a reputation behind him, which tends to be pretty good.

00:04:46   "Teechie, you're not buying. You're not just completely ignoring this, aren't you? I can

00:04:51   feel it."

00:04:52   It's not that I'm ignoring this, I just don't see... I know that this person, they've been

00:05:00   accurate in the past, I just wish they had something more substantial to back up the

00:05:04   claim.

00:05:05   Well, sure.

00:05:06   You know, like...

00:05:07   I would prefer an image.

00:05:09   Yeah.

00:05:10   It's just...

00:05:11   It's screenshots.

00:05:12   But yeah, sometimes you just gotta take what you can get.

00:05:14   Sure, sure.

00:05:15   I don't know if you're aware, but they've doubled down on secrecy.

00:05:18   Also, this is the result.

00:05:21   You only get screenshots from documents.

00:05:23   Just text.

00:05:24   Just text.

00:05:25   Just text.

00:05:26   Yeah.

00:05:27   And I'm sure it's like a Best Buy or AT&T inventory system, right?

00:05:28   Like it's not from Apple.

00:05:30   So yeah, maybe that's soon.

00:05:31   You know, there was that story a couple weeks ago that they had filed some registration

00:05:36   stuff in Europe and now it's in this thing.

00:05:39   So my guess is that we're getting close to this.

00:05:42   I mean, it's also set in Times New Roman, so you know it's not an Apple document.

00:05:46   That's right.

00:05:48   It's not SF Mono.

00:05:49   So just picking up all the signs I can find.

00:05:51   That's good.

00:05:52   Man, you're really good at this Federico.

00:05:53   Yeah, I know, right?

00:05:54   I should be a blogger.

00:05:56   There is a report over on 9to5Mac that iOS 11.4 may be adding calendars to the personal

00:06:05   request feature on HomePod.

00:06:07   So if you remember, that's the thing on the HomePod where you can have it with access

00:06:12   to iMessage and a couple other things, and calendars may be coming to this, which I think

00:06:20   would be great.

00:06:21   Well, it's a huge omission.

00:06:24   It's just a huge omission.

00:06:25   Yeah.

00:06:26   So, Federico, I'll ask you, is this enough for you?

00:06:30   Is this image enough?

00:06:31   So this image here on 9to5Mac shows an icon of the calendar.

00:06:35   Is that good?

00:06:36   Now, this is a screenshot taken during setup, during the beta, so it's an actual feature

00:06:42   that was active for this person.

00:06:44   They took a screenshot, and then MrRambo looked into the sample list file, I think.

00:06:50   They saw a reference to the calendar feature.

00:06:54   So it's a much better leak, because it's not a leak, it's a feature that was then removed.

00:07:00   So this is like, on the tch_leak scale, this is good, right?

00:07:04   This is on the good side.

00:07:05   This is good plus on my tch_leak scale.

00:07:07   Good plus!

00:07:08   Yes.

00:07:09   Interesting.

00:07:10   So just so we can understand some of the parameters of this scale, what was the iPhone SE?

00:07:14   Like how did that score?

00:07:16   The iPhone SE is inferior minus.

00:07:21   Inferior minus, okay.

00:07:22   Yes.

00:07:23   - So we've got inferior and a good,

00:07:24   and like what's in the middle?

00:07:26   So we've got inferior minus, inferior something,

00:07:28   good, good plus.

00:07:29   - So we go from nightmare, which is the last one,

00:07:33   to inferior minus, to inferior, to decent, to normal,

00:07:38   to good, good plus, and best I love you.

00:07:41   That's the last one.

00:07:44   (laughing)

00:07:47   - Wow.

00:07:47   - You should make this, somebody should make this scale.

00:07:50   I know it's gonna be on the next Connected t-shirt.

00:07:53   - And great, all the leaks on it.

00:07:55   Yeah. - Best I love you.

00:08:00   - It's best comma I love you.

00:08:01   It's best comma I love you.

00:08:03   - Of course, I mean, you just gotta think about the grammar.

00:08:05   Do you have any examples of nightmare and best I love you?

00:08:09   - Well, nightmare is, you know,

00:08:13   when you go on those blogs that nobody really reads

00:08:17   and they claim to have leaks and they make up,

00:08:20   like they show you a concept and they say that that's a leak. I see this type of practice

00:08:27   happening on Italian blogs all the time. That's nightmare level because it's not a leak, it's

00:08:32   also a concept. Best I love you is like the HomePod. Best I love you is like the HomePod,

00:08:36   yes. Best I love you is like finding the iPhone 10 name or the HomePod or there was something

00:08:43   else I believe. But yeah, that's... The touch bar was leaked too in a Mac OS build. Yeah,

00:08:49   That's like when you go to the person and you just give them a good hug and it's like

00:08:56   I love you for this leak, thank you.

00:08:58   That's the last stage.

00:09:00   Wow.

00:09:01   Yeah.

00:09:02   Wow.

00:09:03   Best I love you.

00:09:04   All right, well, the first person to come up with a graphic for that, we will include

00:09:09   it in the show notes and probably a t-shirt at some point.

00:09:12   Best I love you.

00:09:14   Best I love you.

00:09:15   So Federico, you have this idea in the show notes that Apple should launch a HomePod beta

00:09:21   program.

00:09:22   And this is one of those things, this happens sometimes, where one of the two of you will

00:09:26   come up with something and I wish so hard that I thought of it first.

00:09:30   This is such a good idea.

00:09:33   So do you want to walk us through what you envision this mythical beta program being

00:09:37   like?

00:09:38   I don't think I came up with it.

00:09:39   I mean, other people on Twitter.

00:09:41   You put it in the documents.

00:09:43   In the world of the three of us, you won.

00:09:45   It's a very tiny world.

00:09:47   But yes, I put it in the document.

00:09:50   And the idea would be that the HomePod is a voice device, and it deals with all kinds

00:09:56   of voice-based requests in natural language.

00:10:01   People have different ways of asking things.

00:10:03   And we see this with Siri all the time, that you ask for something in a specific way, it

00:10:09   doesn't work.

00:10:10   Other times it works.

00:10:11   I wonder if maybe the HomePod should also have a way to let users install betas and

00:10:17   try new features before they go straight to the public.

00:10:21   Basically, just like it works for iOS and MacOS and watchOS, it should be the same for

00:10:25   what's the name, Audio OS, the thing that runs on the HomePod.

00:10:30   And I think that especially because it's a voice first feature.

00:10:34   And Apple is, I mean, we can all admit that Apple is behind when it comes to Siri and

00:10:39   when it comes to the intelligence of dealing with certain requests, they could use the

00:10:44   help of thousands of beta testers. And I bet that people would be happy, you know, especially

00:10:50   the ones with the problem, people like me that we bought two home pods and there's people

00:10:55   with probably three or four home pods. I would be happy to put one of them on a beta release

00:11:01   and try the new features beforehand and send some feedback. Because it's what I do at iOS

00:11:06   really care about a new iOS release. Besides all the jokes that you should file a radar and stuff,

00:11:13   I do send feedback. I have a list of things that I submit to Apple, and I would be happy to do the

00:11:18   same for the HomePod. And honestly, I just think that Apple could use the help of other people,

00:11:23   because, yeah, they had like 5,000 HomePods in the apartments of Apple employees before it came out.

00:11:33   What if you could have, I don't know, 20,000 HomePods all around the globe

00:11:38   in the houses of other people that send you feedback?

00:11:41   So it's just an idea.

00:11:42   I realize how it might be tricky and slow to install a beta release on a HomePod.

00:11:48   There are public betas, right? Like public betas exist now?

00:11:51   Yeah. This could be part of that.

00:11:54   Like, is the Apple Watch in a public beta?

00:11:57   No, it's not. OK.

00:11:59   But it's still doable.

00:12:02   I mean, you need to install a certificate and all that.

00:12:04   And the process will probably be slow on the HomePod

00:12:07   because it doesn't have an interface.

00:12:10   But it would be similar to the Apple Watch.

00:12:12   You do the entire setup from your iPhone

00:12:14   and you install from your iPhone.

00:12:15   So I don't see why not.

00:12:17   Maybe we'll see something like this at WWDC.

00:12:20   I hope so.

00:12:21   I hope so.

00:12:22   I hope that Apple treats the HomePod as any other iOS

00:12:25   or similar device like TVOS and watchOS.

00:12:30   Yeah, I would like to see it. If anything, just so it helped push the HomePod along further.

00:12:38   I guess more data is always good, but we'll wait and see. Hopefully one day. I reckon probably not

00:12:43   until it becomes a little bit more independent, at least. We'll see. Today's show is brought to you

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00:14:21   So Tweetbot 3 was announced yesterday and there was a review on Mac stories and this

00:14:30   is an interesting one I think for a few different reasons.

00:14:34   Tweetbot, Tapbots have a history of releasing new applications.

00:14:39   They've actually been relatively successful with this so they take an app, they release

00:14:45   a new version of that app as a separate app which you pay for again.

00:14:49   done this on iOS a handful of times. I don't know if they did it from Tweetbot 1 to 2 on

00:14:55   the Mac, I don't remember, but Tweetbot 2 to 3. It's a brand new app in the Mac App

00:15:00   Store and it's $10. This is kind of a way that they have gotten around upgrade pricing,

00:15:07   not doing subscription pricing, that kind of thing. Let me tell you some of the new

00:15:10   features. These are the new features as called out on the Tapbox website. So there's a refreshed

00:15:16   UI and it's immediately obvious. I downloaded Tweetbot 3 and played around with it a little

00:15:21   bit before the show today and it looks more akin to the iOS version in a lot of ways,

00:15:27   I think, where Tweetbot 2 kind of didn't. Like for example the addition of a dark mode

00:15:36   has been added which I like because that's kind of how I'm used to seeing Tweetbot. The

00:15:40   iconography is all different. I like the iconography but I've seen mixed, kind of mixed with all

00:15:46   of that mixed feelings that people have about the way the little icons look, but I like

00:15:51   them. I think that they work pretty nice.

00:15:53   It seems also a lot of stuff has kind of moved around in the UI, and there are some peculiar

00:15:59   choices. Like for example, in the little row of icons that sit underneath a tweet to reply

00:16:04   and fave and retweet, the like and retweet buttons have been switched around and they're

00:16:11   in a different order to the iOS version. So on iOS, it is reply, retweet, fav, but on

00:16:18   the Mac it's reply, fav, retweet. And that's really weird to me and I can't get my head

00:16:23   around it and it's just within 10 minutes of using the app it like totally broke me.

00:16:30   It's also backwards from twitter.com. So my thought was, oh they are mimicking what's

00:16:34   on the website and I went and looked and it's backwards from what Twitter does itself. So

00:16:40   I have some questions about that ordering.

00:16:42   Yeah, I don't know what's happened there.

00:16:44   I would say that that feels like it's wrong.

00:16:46   Like it was maybe done wrong, I don't know.

00:16:49   There is an expandable sidebar.

00:16:52   There are drag and drop columns, so there's

00:16:54   kind of more customization you can

00:16:57   do to make the app bigger and smaller.

00:16:59   And you really can kind of make it look like TweetDeck.

00:17:02   You could do some of this stuff in the previous version

00:17:05   of Tweetbot on the Mac, but this clearly

00:17:07   has been built up like beefed up and especially with a lot of the drag and

00:17:12   drop and like the expansion that you can do and stuff like that so that's

00:17:15   that's one of the new features too. There's a refreshed media viewer with a

00:17:20   feature that I do actually think is really awesome which is you can just

00:17:23   hover over media and it will play like so this can be a gif or a video I think

00:17:27   that's really nice like that's just a nice way to scroll rather than opening

00:17:31   every time it always feels more cumbersome to me to open a gif or a

00:17:35   or a video on the Mac than on Tweetbot on iOS.

00:17:39   I don't know why that is.

00:17:40   It might be because on iOS you can just swipe it away again,

00:17:44   but on the Mac you have to either hit a keyboard command

00:17:47   or you have to go up and press the close button.

00:17:49   It just feels nice, so I tap it and swipe it away

00:17:52   and it just flies into the ether.

00:17:53   So I like that you can just do the hovering thing.

00:17:57   Share extensions, finally.

00:17:59   You can share things to Apple Notes,

00:18:02   which I'm very excited about.

00:18:04   this should have been added a long time ago in my opinion to Tweetbot.

00:18:06   So I'm pleased that they've got that there.

00:18:08   And they're the new features.

00:18:10   They're the new features as described.

00:18:13   Um, have I missed anything?

00:18:14   I don't know.

00:18:16   I'm downloading the app now, so.

00:18:18   I mean, both me and Federico have just downloaded it today because I mean,

00:18:24   I haven't been at my Mac since before we recorded today.

00:18:27   Uh, but you know, there, frankly, there's not, there's not a ton to see.

00:18:32   Like you can get an idea for what they've added to the application

00:18:36   within five minutes.

00:18:38   You can see it, right?

00:18:39   Like because a lot of the features, um, surface level, there's not a

00:18:42   lot of like really big stuff.

00:18:44   And I'm not saying like surface level isn't necessarily a bad thing.

00:18:47   Um, I like the visual changes.

00:18:49   I love that they've added share extensions.

00:18:51   I really liked the media viewer.

00:18:52   It makes me want to ask a question.

00:18:54   I just want to ask a question.

00:18:57   All right.

00:18:57   And there's, there's going to be some stuff we're going to get into in a minute,

00:19:00   which changes the answer to this question a lot, but is there a bar that you need

00:19:05   to hit for features to charge a customer again?

00:19:10   Like what warrants an upgrade price?

00:19:16   Like, what is it?

00:19:17   What is it that does that?

00:19:18   Because I think a lot of people have been asking that question of like, is there

00:19:23   enough in this app to make me pay for it again?

00:19:26   And I understand.

00:19:28   I trust me.

00:19:29   I understand why.

00:19:31   Like the reason that I just dropped 10 pounds or $10 or however much it is, I

00:19:35   think it was 10 pounds as well on this app, is I am a big fan of Tweetbot.

00:19:39   I love Tweetbot.

00:19:40   It's one of, one of, if not my favorite iOS app of all time.

00:19:44   And I want to support that company.

00:19:46   So I will do it.

00:19:47   Same reason that many people listening to this show will do it, but not all because

00:19:52   Tweetbot I think has a very large user base.

00:19:55   So for everybody else who isn't like super plugged into the indie iOS scene,

00:20:01   is this enough?

00:20:03   Are you getting enough value in return?

00:20:07   Just a question.

00:20:07   And I wonder what you guys think.

00:20:09   Well, um, I think it's a tough discussion because on one hand, I, I love

00:20:18   indie developers and I love the idea that, um, I mean, I've built my career

00:20:23   on talking about indie apps and talking to indie developers.

00:20:27   And, you know, it's what we do at Maxories.

00:20:30   And I'm the biggest supporter of indie developers

00:20:33   and smaller companies.

00:20:35   But there's also the problem of,

00:20:38   despite this feeling of wanting to support

00:20:42   your favorite developer and loving the fact

00:20:45   that an indie developer can make a product

00:20:47   that you really like, you also need to face the reality,

00:20:50   the economic reality of the App Store

00:20:52   and the fact that not necessarily other people feel

00:20:57   the same way that this community does

00:21:00   in regard to indie apps and asking for money

00:21:03   and supporting your developer.

00:21:04   Most people don't wanna pay for software, right?

00:21:07   And most people, they have a different,

00:21:10   they treat money differently

00:21:14   when it comes to downloading software

00:21:16   because they don't necessarily see the value,

00:21:18   the same value that we do.

00:21:20   It's a whole discussion.

00:21:20   We've been through this, you know, basically for the past 10 years.

00:21:23   But when it comes to Tweetbot 3 and other examples, I think of developers

00:21:29   coming out with a new version, I think there's, it's difficult to come up

00:21:35   with a set of rules.

00:21:36   What I try to apply when I review this type of, and I didn't review

00:21:42   Tweetbot 3 for the Mac, but it's happened before and when this kind of

00:21:48   product launches, I try to ask myself, does it feel different enough?

00:21:56   Even though I'm always going to pay Tapbots and I'm always going to give them... because

00:22:00   I don't see it almost as a purchase, I see it as like a donation.

00:22:04   I know that it doesn't necessarily make sense because it's a transaction.

00:22:07   No, okay, so it does make sense because I do this the same as many other people do,

00:22:13   but should it have to feel that way?

00:22:18   No, it shouldn't feel that way.

00:22:20   And so when I think about it and I ask myself,

00:22:23   if I were somebody who doesn't have this type

00:22:25   of relationship with the new developers,

00:22:28   that is it worth it?

00:22:30   And sometimes it doesn't really feel like a major upgrade.

00:22:35   It feels more like a 0.5 something update, right?

00:22:43   - 'Cause there are things that are still missing

00:22:46   that are on iOS.

00:22:47   Like, I want the activity stats view, which is on iOS, which is still not in the

00:22:52   Mac version. This is supposed to feel like the same app everywhere is my feeling on

00:22:58   this, right? Like, I'm surprised that there are features that are on one platform and

00:23:03   not the other. And there may be technical reasons why they can't put the activity

00:23:08   stats in. It may be API reasons, right?

00:23:11   I don't know what they are, but just but that's because I'm a customer.

00:23:14   Like I don't have to know that stuff, right?

00:23:18   Like that's not necessarily on me to specifically know the API

00:23:22   limitations of why they may not be able to add this feature or that feature.

00:23:26   And I understand that it can get really frustrating for developers,

00:23:29   especially if Twitter apps who, you know, people say like, Oh, why can't you,

00:23:33   why won't you put votes in like voting in like the polls one star?

00:23:37   And I know that's frustrating,

00:23:38   but you can't like assume that everybody knows the way all of this stuff

00:23:43   works. So it makes it, I think it makes it tricky. It makes it a tricky thing because

00:23:50   there are features that are in the iOS version of this app that are not in the Mac version of this

00:23:57   app. So, and I want those features and I still don't have those features. I will give them my

00:24:04   money. I've given them my money. I will tell listeners here, if you like this app, if you

00:24:08   like Tweetbot and like Tapbots, support them and give them your money, right? This is what we do.

00:24:12   we do this stuff. But I still think that you should ask the question because it's still

00:24:17   people's money, right? Like people are choosing to give you the money that they earned and I think

00:24:24   that everybody needs to just ask themselves sometimes like, "Am I getting enough?" And there

00:24:30   will be people and I've seen people there, I've many people that I follow on Twitter, some people

00:24:36   say this is a no-brainer purchase, I'm really happy and then there are others who are like,

00:24:41   "yeah I might skip this one, like tweetbot 2 looks fine for me" and it's kind of like I just,

00:24:48   I wrestle with this stuff sometimes as like a person in this community that many of my friends

00:24:52   make their living doing this stuff but I think that you can't, we can't be completely blinded

00:24:59   by the emotion of the great feeling of supporting indie developers all the time because that doesn't

00:25:08   push people forward, it doesn't push the industry forward, right? Like you cannot escape the actual

00:25:14   real economics of the app store. They exist, you cannot like them, but those economics exist and

00:25:21   those economics are everything should be free. That's what the, you know, that's what everyone

00:25:26   wants. It should be free and you charge in-app purchases to buy a bucket of gems to give you more

00:25:31   time in the app. They are the economics and then everything you do that's not that you're going to

00:25:35   gonna have a harder time, right?

00:25:37   Like that's what the app store is focused towards right now.

00:25:41   - An alternative for apps like Tweetbot,

00:25:45   I think we haven't really seen it in social apps very much,

00:25:47   we've seen it a lot in productivity apps,

00:25:49   is the subscription, right?

00:25:50   That what if instead of $10 every couple years,

00:25:54   is that better or worse for Tapbots

00:25:58   than doing a subscription where I pay them,

00:26:01   you know, whatever it is, a dollar a month

00:26:03   you know, four dollars a quarter or whatever it is. We're gonna assume that they've made those

00:26:07   sums, right, and that they've worked out that it's not but I mean

00:26:12   At some point they were already doing this, right?

00:26:16   They were already charging ten dollars a year or whatever by by doing new apps again. So I

00:26:21   Don't know. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I don't know, you know what the what that turnovers like from to the new version or whatever

00:26:28   But surely they've done that math. They're smart guys. I know what they're doing

00:26:32   But that is the only alternative, right?

00:26:36   It is a new paid app or a subscription.

00:26:39   And if you can't or don't want to go the free route.

00:26:44   And this is the older style, right?

00:26:48   This is the older school version of doing it.

00:26:52   And I don't know if they hit the minimum threshold

00:26:55   to be a new app.

00:26:56   My gut says probably not.

00:26:58   But I was happy to do it because I like the app.

00:27:01   that runs my Mac all day every day.

00:27:03   But I think it is at the very least a point to consider,

00:27:08   like you said, the economics of the App Store

00:27:11   and how that works because developers

00:27:13   don't have any other way.

00:27:15   They've got subscriptions and they have this.

00:27:16   And if they want to make money,

00:27:18   Apple still doesn't do paid upgrades.

00:27:21   The best they can do is discount it for a while

00:27:23   and hope that brings people over.

00:27:25   So I don't envy anyone in this position

00:27:29   to release a new app on the App Store

00:27:31   because that's kind of like the worst choice

00:27:33   from a customer like PR perspective, complaint perspective,

00:27:38   but clearly it feels like that's what they need to do

00:27:41   for their business.

00:27:42   I think for Tweetbot in particular,

00:27:45   we'll get into this in a second,

00:27:46   is that the subscription doesn't work

00:27:47   because the future of third party Twitter clients

00:27:50   is not super great.

00:27:52   So maybe this felt like it was their only option

00:27:56   to make a run at some revenue from Tweetbot

00:27:59   maybe one last time.

00:28:01   It also doesn't help that as soon as you make this argument that you try to reason and understand

00:28:06   whether the feature set makes it worth it to be a new app.

00:28:12   You get tons of emails and tweets from angry people.

00:28:16   Oh, embracing for impact when the episode goes out, right?

00:28:22   And I saw this yesterday with John that was trying to make this argument of "I'm gonna

00:28:26   give him my money and I'm using the new app, but I wonder if it was really worth it to

00:28:32   make it a separate purchase for customers. And you get these people that the first tactic

00:28:38   that they employ is the coffee metaphor of "Well, why don't you want to give $10? It's

00:28:45   like two cups of coffee." And it's something that, you know, these arguments that these

00:28:50   people make all the time. And what it makes sense, I understand, because numbers are comparable.

00:28:55   I'm sorry to break it to you, but people don't feel the same way about coffee and your app.

00:29:01   People love coffee and don't want to give you money for your application.

00:29:05   It's just a simple law of human nature.

00:29:08   People are attracted by consumable goods like sodas or coffee, and they don't believe that

00:29:15   they should pay for software.

00:29:17   So the metaphor makes sense from a numeric standpoint.

00:29:20   It doesn't really reflect the way that people think and feel about apps.

00:29:25   So it's a way to end the conversation that doesn't really benefit anyone.

00:29:31   Coffee is such a bad...

00:29:34   I get the argument, but coffee is such a bad example.

00:29:38   Because it's like, people are addicted to coffee.

00:29:42   Yes.

00:29:43   Like they need it in their lives every day to function.

00:29:47   Coffee is a bad metaphor.

00:29:52   But never mind.

00:29:53   gonna say there are some features in this app that like now I've paid my ten

00:29:59   pounds I'm like okay this is nice right like I like that the sidebar you can put

00:30:04   up you can like drop down and have way more stuff in there so it's more

00:30:07   accessible I like all the animations in the Apple way cleaner it is nicer in

00:30:12   basically every way except for some weirdness but this is not what I have

00:30:19   come to expect from tap bots.

00:30:22   Like every time they have done a pay us money for a new version, it's like it's

00:30:27   much bigger. Right.

00:30:29   Like Tweetbot 3 on iOS was huge.

00:30:32   It added all of the activity stuff.

00:30:34   It added multi column.

00:30:36   It gave us an incredible iPad app.

00:30:38   Right. Like that was a really big update.

00:30:41   A new design.

00:30:42   Brand new design. And like this one is like this is a nice update, but it is not a huge

00:30:47   update and especially because like the Mac app is more expensive anyway, right?

00:30:52   So yeah, I think that this is a good example of needing to have this

00:30:57   conversation which I think is an important one and I understand that it is

00:31:03   it is a minefield and look we continue to support indie app developers as we

00:31:08   always will but we're also just regular people in the world and there are a lot

00:31:15   more regular people in the world than there are app developers and sometimes I think it

00:31:20   is worth having these debates to try and make sure that we're keeping things in a real view

00:31:26   and trying not to be too stuck in our echo chamber which we're in 95% of the time but

00:31:33   sometimes it's worth looking at these things with a slightly fresh pair of eyes and I hope

00:31:37   that this conversation has helped people do that.

00:31:41   So let's talk about why none of this matters.

00:31:43   Stephen, can you tell us about why we all need

00:31:48   to give people money and hopefully it will keep them around?

00:31:52   - Yes, well, sure.

00:31:54   So remember a couple weeks ago,

00:31:56   there was that website, Apps of a Feather,

00:31:58   and it was an open letter describing

00:32:02   the account activity API change coming to Twitter.

00:32:05   And basically what this boils down to is

00:32:07   the way that third-party Twitter clients

00:32:10   pulled data from the service is being turned off.

00:32:13   And it was supposed to be in June,

00:32:15   and then Twitter said they would give them

00:32:17   three months notice, but said they're giving people

00:32:19   two months notice, and it's now going to be

00:32:20   closed off in August.

00:32:23   So, you know, good job counting there, Twitter.

00:32:25   This means a couple of things.

00:32:28   It means that third-party apps, they will still work.

00:32:33   And so I got into it with some people on Twitter,

00:32:35   which I regret.

00:32:37   I shouldn't have walked into this conversation,

00:32:39   but these apps aren't dead.

00:32:41   Like they still will get tweets, you can still reply,

00:32:44   but it is a really bad blow against their functionality.

00:32:48   And so after this old API shutdown,

00:32:50   and these, if these developers move over

00:32:53   to the new account activity API,

00:32:55   and my guess is that some Twitter clients

00:32:57   won't get updated and they'll just die, right?

00:32:58   The older ones that are still floating around.

00:33:00   But according to a couple of different interviews,

00:33:04   a couple of different developers,

00:33:06   this is what this new API means.

00:33:08   It means that there are no notifications for likes or retweets.

00:33:12   We can get into what we think about these.

00:33:14   I just want to get to the list.

00:33:17   Notifications for tweets, mentions, DMs, and quotes will be delayed because basically these

00:33:23   apps have to move to a fetching system as opposed to streaming.

00:33:27   Your timeline is going to be a minute or two behind because it has to fetch every 60 seconds

00:33:32   or something.

00:33:33   In a way, this is very much how Twitter apps started life before the streaming API, but

00:33:38   that API is going away, being replaced by this.

00:33:42   Additional access can be had, but it is prohibitively expensive for indie developers.

00:33:50   Craig Hockenberry had a tweet a couple of minutes ago, he was looking at it, saying

00:33:56   that it's a ballpark of $10 per user per month to get access to those notifications.

00:34:04   And I don't know about y'all, and I love Twitter, the service, not the company.

00:34:10   And I like Tweetbot, but I'm not paying $10 a month.

00:34:13   Just forget that.

00:34:14   So that's not really an option.

00:34:18   It depends on what I'm paying for.

00:34:20   Well, you'd be paying for those things.

00:34:22   You'll be paying for notifications, for likes and retweets, instant notifications.

00:34:28   Basically you're paying for your app to work the way it does now.

00:34:30   I mean if anything Twitter should pay me to keep using the service.

00:34:34   That's just me.

00:34:35   I mean maybe.

00:34:36   So like I said, the apps that move over to this will still function, but they're going

00:34:43   to have these limitations.

00:34:46   As far as I'm concerned, this is not enough for me to move away from Tweetbot because

00:34:52   I don't have notifications on for anything except DMs and I don't yeah

00:34:55   whatever they don't have so we're gonna lose notifications we're gonna lose

00:34:59   notifications and streaming that that's what we're losing yeah okay yeah well

00:35:03   you're using you're losing notifications for likes and retweets period and other

00:35:08   notifications are gonna be delayed because they have to fetch so for me

00:35:11   that's not a huge deal but I understand that I'm in the minority of people and

00:35:15   the way that I use Twitter most people have all the notifications on they want

00:35:19   to see them, they want it to be instant. And so I do think there's going to be a large

00:35:22   number of people who this is the end of the road for their third party experience and

00:35:26   that they will move over to the official Twitter app so they have all these features.

00:35:33   I'm going to really struggle to say this without sounding like...

00:35:39   Just say it. You've already made people mad today, so just go for it.

00:35:44   I'm going to really struggle to say this without sounding like I think I'm really important.

00:35:50   So I would say that the majority of people that get a lot of interaction on Twitter probably

00:36:01   don't have these notifications turned on.

00:36:05   Exactly.

00:36:06   Like some retweets, right?

00:36:07   Yeah.

00:36:08   Yeah.

00:36:09   Sure.

00:36:10   people that have these notifications turned on probably don't get that many. So it's not

00:36:20   important. Yeah. That's my feeling on this. I am so sorry. I'm so sorry that it makes

00:36:27   me sound this way. But no, we have followers because we have an audience and there's nothing

00:36:32   to feel bad about that. Like I have, I mean, I don't have the largest follower count in

00:36:38   the world, I have like 30,000 followers.

00:36:40   If, you know, and some and, you know, most tweets that I publish, nobody's ever

00:36:45   saying anything about them.

00:36:46   But like every now and then, like I had a tweet the other day that got retweeted a

00:36:51   bunch and it had 600 likes within like an hour.

00:36:53   My phone would explode.

00:36:55   Right. Like I so that's why I don't have those notifications turned on.

00:37:00   I just feel like.

00:37:04   Yes, this sucks, but this is not going to kill third party apps.

00:37:08   Like it won't.

00:37:10   Like, for example, the timeline fetching slowly.

00:37:13   Paul Haddad of Tweetbot says that on iOS, when you're on LTE,

00:37:19   this is already happening with like the slower timeline polling.

00:37:23   And no one even noticed, right?

00:37:26   Like who noticed that?

00:37:27   Like I really think, and then I think like the other thing, like

00:37:30   Notifications for mentions, quotes, DMs and following being delayed.

00:37:36   I think it's the exact same thing.

00:37:37   I think that the majority of people that have this stuff turned on are not getting so many

00:37:43   that it's going to be super important to get them within seconds.

00:37:48   And like the only one I can imagine is DMs.

00:37:51   But there are a million messaging services you can use to if you need immediacy.

00:37:57   Like this at best feels like inconveniences and it will affect third parties because people will think

00:38:09   this is very bad so the message gets spread around that like this is really bad so people think it's

00:38:17   really bad but I think the actuality of it like what how people would actually be affected if they

00:38:25   didn't pay attention to doom and gloom, they would be okay. Like it wouldn't,

00:38:28   they maybe not even notice. But the problem is stuff like this happens. And then you see a bunch

00:38:32   of people talking about how it's going to kill third party clients. And then everybody thinks

00:38:36   third party clients are going to get killed. So then they just stop using them. And that's

00:38:42   the problem. Which is the conversation I wandered into earlier trying to say that and then people

00:38:47   who make Twitter apps got mad. Yeah, and they're gonna get mad at me again. But like, because they

00:38:51   Understand I mean and I understand where they're coming from that like this is gonna affect them

00:38:55   I get it, but I don't think that it should I think people were reacting to it in like too harshly

00:39:02   Yeah, like this is bad

00:39:04   Like it's not it's not good. And I think all I think all of us would prefer it not happen

00:39:10   Like honestly, I wish that tweet bot and Twitter if it could build everything that the first party - yeah

00:39:14   I want them to I want them to be better

00:39:16   Like I want them to have everything but they can't do it

00:39:19   But Twitter, the company has deemed in its, I don't want to use the word wisdom because

00:39:24   it's not that, but whatever it is that Twitter's leadership is stewing in, they've decided

00:39:29   that this is the route they're going to take.

00:39:31   And the reality is it could be much worse.

00:39:35   Like Twitter could say, you know what, no third party API access, right?

00:39:40   Like Facebook just did that with Instagram.

00:39:42   Like they shut down almost all API access in and out of Instagram.

00:39:47   And that could very well happen to Twitter.

00:39:50   And honestly, it's surprising it hasn't happened.

00:39:52   And so if this means that Tweetbot's going to be a little slow and I don't get the notifications

00:39:57   that I already don't want, then I am fine.

00:40:00   I think a lot of users – because here's the thing.

00:40:05   People who use third-party Twitter clients, they understand, I think, for the most part,

00:40:10   the situation they're in by doing so.

00:40:12   Because Twitter is free.

00:40:14   It shows up in the App Store as Twitter Inc.

00:40:16   Most people just go there.

00:40:18   They're all gonna be people who leave

00:40:21   and I think they're gonna be people

00:40:22   who would have bought Tweetbot

00:40:24   if they'd heard about it before this,

00:40:25   but maybe now that they see there's a bigger difference,

00:40:27   maybe they won't.

00:40:28   No doubt it's bad for their business, right?

00:40:30   Tweetbot and Twitterific and whoever else is out there,

00:40:34   their business is gonna suffer for this and that sucks.

00:40:37   And I'm really sorry.

00:40:38   But running around saying that third-party Twitter clients

00:40:43   are dead is just not true.

00:40:44   it's not the actual case.

00:40:47   They've been dealt a really bad blow,

00:40:49   and they're limping along,

00:40:51   but for users who still really want that experience,

00:40:53   like for me, I loathe the first party Twitter app so much,

00:40:56   I will continue to use a hobble tweet bot

00:40:59   as long as possible,

00:41:00   because I hate the first party app that much.

00:41:02   And I think there's lots of people

00:41:04   who use tweet bot for that reason,

00:41:06   who will continue to use it for that reason after this.

00:41:09   It's not like Twitter has the ability

00:41:11   to make their first party app good all of a sudden,

00:41:13   because they're limiting the API access to third parties.

00:41:17   So until that happens, I think a lot of us

00:41:19   are just gonna stay put and that's fine.

00:41:21   - I think what we're trying to say,

00:41:23   and I don't know if we're doing a good job of saying it,

00:41:26   is this will affect third parties

00:41:28   because of what people think their access is gonna be like.

00:41:33   Or when they go on and realize

00:41:35   that something's not updating anymore

00:41:37   and then they get annoyed about it and it will affect them.

00:41:40   But like, I think what we're trying to say is,

00:41:43   there isn't actually that much of an effect to most people.

00:41:48   But people perceive that effect as bad.

00:41:52   - Yeah, I think so.

00:41:54   - I think of all the features they could have cut

00:41:58   from the API, the ones that they have chosen

00:42:02   will have probably minimal impact

00:42:05   on the way that people use third-party clients for.

00:42:08   And it's not like they are shutting down access completely like a few years ago when the old API died.

00:42:15   And suddenly, like if you open, if you try to open the original Twitter, you see a blank page.

00:42:20   Because the old API does not exist anymore.

00:42:24   This is not what's happening now.

00:42:26   And it's not even that they are preventing some aspects from loading at all.

00:42:31   Like you get no more direct messages or you get no more replies.

00:42:35   No, you just don't get the notifications, which is the alert of a new reply, of a new

00:42:41   message, and the timeline doesn't stream. But in most cases, it feels like a fair compromise.

00:42:50   And I say compromise because, yes, we're dealing with a company that controls the API, and

00:42:55   the writing has been on the wall for years now. Everybody knows that Twitter doesn't

00:42:59   like these third-party clients that are still around. So if this is what you need to do

00:43:04   to survive, I think we'll be fine. Ideally, the third-party client should have all the

00:43:11   features of Twitter, but that's ideally. In practice, this is what we have, and I think

00:43:17   we'll be okay.

00:43:18   I think as a way to maybe try and tie all of this together, I think what we're trying

00:43:22   to get at here is, if this happens and it does affect things the way that it does, don't

00:43:28   move away from your third-party client. Just keep trying to use it for a while and continue

00:43:33   to support those developers because frankly even with those features removed

00:43:38   tweetbot and twitterific will still be better ios apps than the official twitter app like

00:43:45   they're still going to be chronological they're still going to be beautiful they're still going

00:43:48   to be well considered like they will continue to be better apps and i and as somebody who turned

00:43:54   off notifications a long time ago for a lot of this stuff yes trust me that your life will

00:43:59   probably be better for not getting them.

00:44:01   That's what I wanted to say.

00:44:03   Like, I mean, even if they're a bit slower, that's fine.

00:44:06   That will be better for you.

00:44:08   Just spend less time on Twitter.

00:44:10   I know you think to yourself like, oh, I really like I felt that way.

00:44:13   Right. I felt like I really like I loved those notifications.

00:44:17   Like I don't even have notifications for DM on Twitter because like for me,

00:44:20   personally, most of the people that DM me on Twitter, they probably have

00:44:25   a better way to get in touch with me and typically do that.

00:44:28   Right.

00:44:28   like the amount of Twitter DMs that I get are minimal.

00:44:32   And most people that send me DMs,

00:44:34   I think they send them knowing that I'll just get to them

00:44:36   when I get to them.

00:44:37   Nobody's sending me urgent stuff on Twitter DM

00:44:39   or stuff that I can't get back to in a couple of hours.

00:44:43   Like it's never like nothing's burning down.

00:44:46   People will text me or whatever.

00:44:48   Like I just, really it's just like, look,

00:44:50   this is not great because of the effect it will have

00:44:55   like from a perception perspective.

00:44:57   But like if you're listening to the show, just go and continue using the apps that you're using.

00:45:02   Just continue using them and I promise you, you'll be fine.

00:45:06   Remember...

00:45:11   What if I followed your suggestions and I started using the Twitter client like you said and I die?

00:45:19   Is that a new mic?

00:45:20   Do you remember that time when you used the Twitter app and like were advocating for it? Do you remember that?

00:45:25   Well, okay, so you want to do this, let's do this.

00:45:29   No, I don't want to do it. Okay, go on.

00:45:31   Just 30 seconds.

00:45:34   I would use the Twitter app if only they supported Timeline Sync

00:45:39   and they offered a better iPad version.

00:45:42   Because honestly, the real Twitter is what you get in the real Twitter app.

00:45:47   Like, not real, the full Twitter experience is what you get in the official app.

00:45:52   But I can get over these two features.

00:45:54   The fact that the timeline doesn't sync and that the iPad app is...

00:45:58   Terrible doesn't even describe what it is.

00:46:02   It's like a joke of a piece of software that was put together by someone who doesn't even understand what a tablet is.

00:46:08   So I can get over these two negative aspects, but I would use Twitter if it worked that way.

00:46:16   Because I do like the features and the design and the way that links are displayed.

00:46:22   displayed. I like many things of the official app, and I understand why people use it. Lots

00:46:27   of people don't want to use Tweetbot or Twitterrific because they prefer the official experience.

00:46:33   I just have those two issues, but I would switch if only they offered that.

00:46:40   I really like Tweetbot 3 on the Mac, by the way. And I'm not making a joke. I actually

00:46:45   think it's very nice. I've been poking around, like, now I'm just poking around. I love all

00:46:51   the animations they're actually really good it's a nice app it's a nice app but

00:46:56   I'm trying to sign into the Mac App Store to buy it and it doesn't work

00:46:59   I will say for me it is a nice app that just meets the bar of me being happy to

00:47:04   pay for it like it just meets it for me there's enough in there where I'm happy

00:47:10   but my bar I know my bar is way lower than most people because I buy apps for

00:47:18   my hashtag work. Are we done with this topic? We still have more to go but are we done with

00:47:25   this topic? I think so. Remember, like, be nice to us if you disagree. Like, just be

00:47:31   nice. Just give us some something to discuss with you. Like, don't tell us that you hate

00:47:37   us. We're just trying our best here. Be nice to others in general. Be nice to everyone.

00:47:42   Good advice. Good advice. That's on the best I love you on the scale. Yes, of course. Today's

00:47:47   Today's episode is brought to you by Skillshare, an online learning community with over 20,000

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00:49:18   So let's talk about this something else fun and uplifting today.

00:49:23   I'm going to be in class action lawsuits.

00:49:24   Class action lawsuits.

00:49:25   Bye everyone.

00:49:26   Away he goes, into the ether.

00:49:28   So Apple has been served a class action lawsuit over defective keyboards in the MacBook and

00:49:36   MacBook Pro. So this was filed in North California and it alleges a couple

00:49:43   things. So it says that starting in 2015 with the butterfly keyboard and the

00:49:50   MacBook, those keyboards fail when dust or debris comes underneath the keyboard,

00:49:56   keystrokes fail to register. We've all talked about this at length. As a result

00:50:00   of the defect, I'm quoting now, consumers who purchased a MacBook face a constant

00:50:04   threat of non-responsive keys and accompanying keyboard failure.

00:50:09   When one or more of the keys of the keyboard fail, the MacBook can no longer serve its

00:50:12   core function, typing.

00:50:14   So this, I think that outlines the problem pretty well.

00:50:17   Debris gets under the key, the key gets sticky, and then it fails.

00:50:21   Here's the kicker of this.

00:50:22   I'm going to quote again.

00:50:24   Apple knew that the MacBook is defective at or before the time it began selling the effective

00:50:28   models to the public.

00:50:30   Complaints of the keyboard failures began to come in shortly after the 2015 MacBook

00:50:34   was launched.

00:50:36   Despite its awareness of the keyboard defect, Apple equipped future model MacBook and MacBook

00:50:41   Pro laptops with the butterfly keyboard and continued selling these laptops to consumers

00:50:46   at premium prices.

00:50:48   So this is some heavy duty stuff, right?

00:50:52   So they're saying, "Hey, this keyboard has an issue."

00:50:54   But the heart of this is that Apple knew that and then moved forward by expanding that keyboard

00:50:59   on to other products, the complaint sites, a bunch of user complaints, threads on Apple's

00:51:06   own support forums, a 22,000 signature petition over at change.org, which as we all know,

00:51:13   is what makes change happen in the world is a bunch of signatures on a website. This is

00:51:17   pretty rough, right? Like this is a, I mean, it's easy to like roll our eyes that class

00:51:21   action lawsuits and I think, you know, that's, that's definitely one way to go about this.

00:51:25   But I think there are a couple things worth talking about here.

00:51:30   One is their merit in the statement that Apple knew it was a problem, and they put it on

00:51:36   the MacBook Pros anyways, because the the MacBook and MacBook Pro keyboard is slightly

00:51:41   different.

00:51:42   It is engineered to have a better feel.

00:51:44   But it's the same mechanism.

00:51:45   If you pry the keycap off with with the same amount of key travel, it's just sort of designed

00:51:50   to be softer at the bottom of the key press.

00:51:53   And then there's a bit in here talking about warranty obligations, which we can get to

00:51:57   in a minute.

00:51:58   So what do you guys think?

00:51:59   Do you think this is just like bananas talk or do you think that there's something to

00:52:03   the idea that Apple was aware that there may be a reliability problem but decided to roll

00:52:09   the dice?

00:52:10   >> I think it is tricky to categorically make the claim.

00:52:17   I think that you could make it and believe it.

00:52:21   I think you could make it with evidence that they have, right?

00:52:24   Like that surely they were getting user complaints and surely there were, um,

00:52:28   lots and lots of Apple support forum threads. But I mean, we don't,

00:52:34   we don't fully, we don't fully understand, um,

00:52:37   the extent to which this problem has affected people.

00:52:40   I know many people it has affected my Mac book pro. I had it out yesterday and,

00:52:45   uh, it was making some really weird clicking noises at some keys, you know,

00:52:48   like it does that. I have the original one. Um,

00:52:51   it makes some funny sounds every now and then when you when you type in on it.

00:52:57   But we don't we don't 100% know the actual realm of like how bad this is

00:53:03   like how much worse it is than usual that kind of thing like I think that we

00:53:07   can all make some really good estimations on it and that I think we'd

00:53:13   all feel pretty accurate to say that this is worse than it's been before and

00:53:17   they are less reliable. I think that it is tricky to just categorically make the claim

00:53:24   that they definitely knew about it, did nothing about it, and shipped it. I think that that is,

00:53:28   you know, but this is the legal language, right? This is the language that they will present to try

00:53:32   and put this into a court so a court will look at it. I've been frustrated by some of the headlines

00:53:39   that I've seen from what I would consider to be reputable outlets over the last couple of days

00:53:45   who just go with their headline "Apple knew keyboards were defective"

00:53:49   like they take it as a quote from this suit and like make that their headline i think that that is

00:53:54   i have actually seen a few uh places update their headlines since right to be like this this suit

00:54:01   alleges because they were going for something a little bit clickbaity i mean i don't know man

00:54:06   i don't know i mean clearly there is a problem here i think that the class action lawsuit is

00:54:11   is just not gonna do anything.

00:54:13   I think that this would be the same

00:54:15   as all other class action lawsuits

00:54:16   where like maybe something will happen in six years time

00:54:19   where everybody gets like two cents for it.

00:54:23   But this isn't gonna be the thing.

00:54:26   Like if something's gonna change Apple's mind

00:54:28   on these keyboards, this is not that thing.

00:54:30   Like this class action lawsuit filed by these three people

00:54:34   in Northern California is not gonna be like the, whoa!

00:54:37   Like it's not gonna, someone's not gonna run

00:54:38   into Tim Cook's office and he like presses

00:54:40   big red button and stops production on MacBook Pros and they start again right

00:54:44   like they were either gonna make changes or they weren't gonna make changes they

00:54:47   may have been aware of it when the before they shipped the 2017 2016

00:54:53   whenever the update was MacBook Pros but like it just they just couldn't feasibly

00:54:57   make the change in time because they couldn't make huge enough changes and it

00:55:01   made slight changes which may have made it better or may not I don't know I

00:55:04   I don't think we know. I expect to see this year new keyboards again.

00:55:12   Whether it fixes the problem, I don't know, but I expect to see some change again.

00:55:17   I just think that this that I know why we're talking about this, right?

00:55:24   Like I understand why we're talking about this.

00:55:26   I don't think that this is a bad discussion to have, but I think that it is

00:55:33   ultimately not worth paying attention to this lawsuit, but it is just another point on the

00:55:39   conspiracy theory board, right? Like that you can draw your string between to get to the final answer

00:55:45   if Apple changes their keyboard. Yeah, so I think I think you're right that this isn't...

00:55:52   Apple's not suddenly surprised that, "Oh gosh, people are saying there's problems, right?"

00:55:58   Apple is aware of how people feel about this machine.

00:56:01   And there was an article on Apple Insider,

00:56:03   they compiled a bunch of data.

00:56:05   I haven't read this in detail,

00:56:07   so I don't really know what data they pulled.

00:56:09   But they report that the keyboard fails twice as often

00:56:12   as on older models.

00:56:14   It's still gotta be a small number.

00:56:15   It's not like 80% of the keyboards are failing.

00:56:18   But there's no doubt in my mind

00:56:21   that it's higher than previous ones.

00:56:23   I guess, yeah, the question is kinda leaving

00:56:27   the lawsuit behind for a minute,

00:56:28   'cause I agree with you,

00:56:29   these things don't change much in the world.

00:56:31   But it is interesting to think about how Apple

00:56:36   is or should be responding to the keyboard issue itself.

00:56:40   The lawsuit has a phrase,

00:56:42   refuses to honor its warranty obligations.

00:56:44   I ran into that last year when I had a key

00:56:48   completely come off my keyboard after failing,

00:56:51   and we talked about it, I won't rehash it.

00:56:54   But the store wanted to charge me 400 bucks for repair,

00:56:57   and I said no, and their manager ended up

00:57:00   waiving the repair fee and they replaced the top case.

00:57:03   I've heard very mixed things from people since then

00:57:06   that sometimes Apple covers it no questions,

00:57:09   no questions asked, sometimes they say like they did

00:57:11   in my case, hey that's accidental damage,

00:57:12   it's like how?

00:57:13   A piece of dust got under it, it's not like I placed

00:57:15   the dust there with a pair of tweezers to break my computer.

00:57:18   But Apple needs to standardize how they're going

00:57:22   to treat customers like this, because especially

00:57:25   if you buy AppleCare, this should be something

00:57:28   that they take care of because it is a fault

00:57:31   that is not at the feet of their customers.

00:57:35   It's at the feet of their design.

00:57:37   The other side of it is, what about people

00:57:42   without AppleCare or what happens to these machines

00:57:46   when AppleCare runs out?

00:57:47   And I strongly believe Apple should open

00:57:51   what's called an REP, it's a repair extension program,

00:57:54   which what these do, you may be familiar with them,

00:57:57   is it covers a very particular failure

00:58:01   on a model of computer, or sometimes,

00:58:03   just like our serial number range,

00:58:04   so sometimes it's like, hey, this iPhone

00:58:07   built between May and the second week of June

00:58:09   had this one problem and will replace them.

00:58:11   So this would be a pretty wide-ranging one,

00:58:14   but it would be, hey, if you have a MacBook or MacBook Pro

00:58:17   with a style keyboard and you experience a failure

00:58:19   out of warranty, we will cover that repair for you,

00:58:23   even if you did not buy AppleCare.

00:58:26   Most of the time a repair extension program

00:58:28   runs three years, so it basically is AppleCare

00:58:31   for that one problem.

00:58:34   So if you have a MacBook Pro with this

00:58:37   and you don't buy AppleCare and the screen dies,

00:58:38   well you're out of luck.

00:58:39   - Are the warranties up on these MacBook Pros?

00:58:43   - The limited warranties are if you only did a year.

00:58:46   There are lots of these machines coming out

00:58:48   of warranty every day now.

00:58:50   They're all still--

00:58:51   - 'Cause I was gonna say,

00:58:52   I mean, I know you knew about it,

00:58:54   I just want to make the point.

00:58:55   You understand why there isn't an RAP on this yet, right?

00:58:58   - They, no, they should have one now

00:59:00   because there are machines out of warranty.

00:59:02   Like-- - No, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:59:03   No, I know the, like, the moral reason,

00:59:07   but like, if they're gonna do this,

00:59:11   they're not gonna do this until they have new products.

00:59:13   - Right, so they can't do this

00:59:15   until there's something new for sale.

00:59:17   I can't-- - Yeah.

00:59:18   - I was actually trying to think earlier today about that.

00:59:20   can't think of a time where Apple has had an R.E.P. on a product that's still for sale.

00:59:24   If you know of one let me know because I'd be interested to correct that.

00:59:27   I agree they should, but the problem is they're like,

00:59:32   the keyboards we are currently selling break. Please buy our computers.

00:59:39   Right.

00:59:40   I think that that's probably what they're facing. If they are going to do this,

00:59:45   I don't think that they will do this until there is a new MacBook Pro available,

00:59:49   which is bad, but that's business? Man, people are gonna hate me today. I love all of you listeners,

00:59:58   you're all amazing, please love me back. But like, you know, I just think that I think that they

01:00:04   should fix people's computers, I think that they should do them, but like the reason that they

01:00:08   probably haven't had anything like this yet and that they're not addressing this yet is because

01:00:13   if they address it, then they have to say that the computers that are currently for sale in their

01:00:18   stores are defective and I just can't imagine them doing that. Yeah it's gonna

01:00:23   have to be after a product revision and say Apple has new laptops for us in

01:00:27   three weeks during the keynote and the best we're gonna get from them even then

01:00:34   is oh the keyboard has been improved right and it will be up to people like

01:00:41   iFixit to take it apart and understand what that means and part of it's gonna

01:00:44   to be proved out over time. Like I, you know, I'm using the 2015 MacBook Pro and

01:00:50   I'm not gonna rush out and replace it with a 2018 one if that machine exists

01:00:54   in three weeks until I know that this issue is behind them. So we'll see.

01:01:00   I expect that we'll see an R.E.P. by the end of the year and I would expect Apple

01:01:06   to quietly be taking care of customers who come into the Genius Bar with this

01:01:11   problem that they would not charge these users for these repairs.

01:01:17   They need to standardize that.

01:01:19   My understanding is, at least very recently, emailing with some listeners that that's not

01:01:24   the case everywhere.

01:01:25   So Apple needs to standardize that because it leaves people stuck, right?

01:01:30   If you bought an expensive computer and the keyboard doesn't work, it's a real bummer.

01:01:36   Good times.

01:01:37   I hope they fix it.

01:01:39   And I think that they will.

01:01:41   We'll see.

01:01:43   All right, I want to tell you about Layers.

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01:02:11   They have a huge lineup.

01:02:13   I think they have someone who worked at Disney,

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01:02:37   These types of conference talks can just be illuminating in different ways.

01:02:40   I can't imagine that anyone's going to break out in Illustrator file and show

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01:02:55   I think that this definitely shows in how they sweat the details of the

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01:03:29   off with the code relay at checkout that's layers.is. Thanks to layers for their support

01:03:35   of the show. So let's settle on a fun note. Let's talk about some iPhone cases and a Bluetooth

01:03:44   thing. So Stephen what are these iPhone cases and why are you so excited about them?

01:03:51   Speaking, who make cases right? They're a case company, they have an Indiegogo campaign.

01:03:56   I don't know why.

01:03:57   Marketing.

01:03:58   This is on Indiegogo.

01:04:00   - It's marketing.

01:04:00   - But anyways.

01:04:01   - It's marketing, that's why they've done it.

01:04:02   Like these things are shipping in like a couple of weeks.

01:04:04   - Because they raised 100 grand in a day, that's why.

01:04:08   - They raised more money because this is an Indiegogo

01:04:11   campaign because then everybody covered it, right?

01:04:13   Like this is, that's why they do it.

01:04:15   A lot of companies do this stuff.

01:04:17   - So anyways, they have a couple of cases.

01:04:20   One is called the C1 and it is designed to be reminiscent

01:04:26   of the iMac G3, everyone's favorite CRT-based Mac

01:04:31   from the late 90s.

01:04:32   And they have one called the,

01:04:35   maybe it's also the C1, or the Classic,

01:04:39   I don't know, their names are confusing.

01:04:40   Anyways, they have another one that looks like

01:04:41   an original iPhone, so it's like a silver back

01:04:44   with a black part at the bottom.

01:04:45   - That's called the Classic, I think,

01:04:47   and then the C1 is the iMac.

01:04:49   - So anyways, I backed this to get the iMac-looking case,

01:04:54   and it looks fun.

01:04:56   And I think people gravitate toward this

01:04:59   just because it is fun,

01:05:01   because the iMacs had its anniversary,

01:05:04   like we've talked about,

01:05:05   and I think it's just a fun design

01:05:07   for people who know what it is.

01:05:09   And so I think Apple fans have been excited.

01:05:11   - All people gravitate towards this stuff.

01:05:14   Because I mean, I love the fact that the iMac saved Apple,

01:05:19   but I couldn't care less about putting some plastic

01:05:20   around my iPhone 10, honestly.

01:05:22   I mean, just, I love you, man,

01:05:24   but this stuff is for old guys.

01:05:25   I don't think it's for people much older than us.

01:05:28   Like I really like like five years max.

01:05:30   You're only like two years older than us, but you care so deeply about this stuff.

01:05:35   It's it's my whole thing, man.

01:05:39   Everyone has their thing, man.

01:05:41   Everyone has their thing. I have pens.

01:05:44   You have what do you have? Amiibo.

01:05:46   Amiibo. Yeah. There you go.

01:05:48   You have Amiibo. They are.

01:05:50   They are a modern new product.

01:05:53   I don't know, some of them are evoking back to NES.

01:05:56   It's the same thing.

01:05:57   Alright.

01:05:57   So anyways.

01:05:58   I love you all the same, but you know.

01:06:00   So anyways, that's a product you should go check out, there's a link in the show notes.

01:06:04   This other thing is super interesting to me.

01:06:07   No, no, no, no, I'm not done.

01:06:09   I want to talk about this case.

01:06:10   I want to talk about these cases more.

01:06:12   Because I think they do look cool, but they look huge though.

01:06:17   Exactly, like it's huge.

01:06:19   Just like 600 pieces, they look massive.

01:06:21   like I don't think that you're they're so thick they're so thick right I'm not on my

01:06:28   own here they are they are really thick it looks like a battery case there better be

01:06:32   some battery inside it does look like a battery case there isn't it does look like a battery

01:06:37   case I hadn't thought of that until now it has a CRT in there somewhere that's true this

01:06:43   is clearly they have this like three piece thing which I guess like I don't know what

01:06:48   it does, I guess it makes it stronger in some way. They call it shock absorbing thermoplastic

01:06:53   polyurethane.

01:06:54   Okay, that's my favorite.

01:06:55   Sure.

01:06:56   Same from the original iMac, it's the same material.

01:06:59   Stephen, I know you're going to be really excited to get these, but you're not going

01:07:03   to use this.

01:07:04   I'm sure that I will have it on as a joke sometimes, but I carry my iPhone without a

01:07:09   case.

01:07:10   I really, really, really like the design of these. Like, I would get the C1, but it's

01:07:16   too thick for me. Like, I want to see what it looks like, maybe the renderings make it

01:07:20   look a bit thicker than it is, but I think Federica's right, like in the images that

01:07:25   they're showing it makes it look like the size of a battery case and I'm not willing

01:07:28   to have a case of that thickness unless there's actually battery in it. But we'll see. But

01:07:32   they do look really great though, like they look really good and we're going to know soon

01:07:37   because they're shipping real soon, right? Because I think they're already making these

01:07:40   things. Yeah, I think starting to ship next week, so for early backers. Oh, let's talk

01:07:45   about this 12 South thing. So 12 South have made a product called the Airfly

01:07:51   which is a Bluetooth adapter for wireless headphones that work with the

01:07:58   AirPods but any any Bluetooth headphones we have to connect to it. The reason this

01:08:02   is interesting is it is a Bluetooth adapter that on the other end of it is a

01:08:06   3.5 millimeter jack so you can plug this into anything that has a standard

01:08:11   headphone jack and connect your AirPods or Bluetooth headphones to it. I'm kind of surprised

01:08:16   that like the lot of these things don't exist already. I'm sure there must be some.

01:08:22   So what you're saying is if you want to listen to a cassette like a Walkman with your AirPods

01:08:28   this is the way to do it. Yes this is the way to do it. I'm sure Casey will be excited

01:08:32   about that. Yeah they have called it the AirFly because they're really kind of trying to like

01:08:37   push that this is good for in-flight entertainment systems. Totally is, right? Like, I think

01:08:41   this is becoming a bigger and bigger problem for people that all of our headphones are

01:08:45   Bluetooth and we get onto planes and we can't connect to the in-flight entertainment systems.

01:08:49   Don't use AirPods on a plane. Like, I have many...

01:08:53   You can! I have, and it's fine.

01:08:55   Yeah, I do.

01:08:56   Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You totally can.

01:08:58   You can? You shouldn't though. Because what?

01:09:01   But the other thing is that like even if you don't use AirPods

01:09:05   Everybody's moving to Bluetooth headphones because you haven't got a 3.5 millimeter jack on your phone anymore. So like that I understand. Yes

01:09:14   But right, so, you know the thought of having an AirPod roll under the seat of someone else on a plane

01:09:21   It's just sounds and I know that it happened to you once Myke

01:09:25   No, it wasn't an AirPods. I dropped the cap of the cup of the

01:09:31   It's a similar situation, right?

01:09:32   I mean, you don't want to be the guy on a plane

01:09:35   just looking under the seats for an AirPod.

01:09:38   - Yeah, I lost it until we landed

01:09:40   and it rolled out and hit me on the foot

01:09:41   and it was one of the greatest things

01:09:42   that's ever happened to me.

01:09:44   But I like the look of this product.

01:09:47   I'm like, I'm keen to see what people say of it

01:09:49   'cause I was like, ooh, that could work

01:09:51   with the Nintendo Switch, right?

01:09:52   Like, I don't know what the lag is going to be like,

01:09:55   but it's a cool little thing.

01:09:56   Like, I think that it is useful.

01:09:58   Like, they're also saying you could use it

01:09:59   gym equipment. Because really you could use it anywhere but they're just trying to show

01:10:03   a couple places to use it. And I think that this is another dongle but it's probably a

01:10:11   good one. It lasts 8 hours, recharges via USB. I wish they could recharge with lightning

01:10:18   though wouldn't that be great. But I guess this isn't something they could probably get

01:10:22   MFI certified for obvious reasons because it's showing maybe a not great thing about

01:10:27   Apple's product lineup now that like we're all using Bluetooth headphones and then you

01:10:31   realize in any Apple when you want to connect to anything else in the world you can't. So

01:10:38   this is this is a product that is born out of necessity. But I like the look of it. I

01:10:43   think it's cool. I think it's a cool idea made by and I guess you know even if these

01:10:47   things do exist in other places this is made by a company that you know mostly right like

01:10:53   they have a good track record, they make good products.

01:10:55   Like, we all have or have had 12 South products

01:11:00   in our lives, right?

01:11:01   - Oh yeah, yeah.

01:11:02   - Yeah, so we know they make good stuff,

01:11:04   so it's cool for that.

01:11:05   But what do you use on the plane, Federico?

01:11:10   What airphones are you using?

01:11:12   - Well, I use a pair of Lightning earbuds,

01:11:17   the Pioneer something like,

01:11:22   Pioneer Raise Plus, they are lightning earbuds that plug into the iPhone and also have a

01:11:28   lightning passthrough so that you can charge your phone and listen at the same time.

01:11:33   And in addition to having a pretty good sound quality for, you know, the earbuds, they have

01:11:39   a noise cancellation.

01:11:40   So I can isolate the engine, the engine noise.

01:11:45   Yeah, these are those ones that go in the ear though, right?

01:11:48   Like they go in the...

01:11:50   They are in-ear earbuds, yes.

01:11:52   Yeah, can't do that.

01:11:54   But they have a wire so that I cannot lose them, and they plug into the phone, and I

01:12:00   can also charge my phone at the same time, and I'm really adverse to the idea of these

01:12:06   tiny AirPods, you know, the risk of losing them, because I use them all the time otherwise.

01:12:12   Just the idea of having to ask other people on a plane to look for my AirPods, nope.

01:12:17   So I...

01:12:18   Yeah, you just gotta let them go at that point, you know, they're to the world now.

01:12:22   They belong to the world now.

01:12:23   They belong to the plane.

01:12:26   That's it.

01:12:27   They're the plane.

01:12:28   They are the plane's AirPods now.

01:12:30   They're not yours.

01:12:32   So yeah.

01:12:33   There's a...

01:12:34   I think this sort of stuff is happening a lot more.

01:12:35   I've noticed on some flights recently that there's an announcement I've never heard.

01:12:40   This is new to me in the last few months.

01:12:43   If you drop something under the seat, please ask an attendant to come and help you.

01:12:47   try and get it out yourself. Because you could lose a hand in those seats, I reckon. I don't

01:12:55   think plain seats are very good for you to just be shoving your hand around inside. Plus,

01:13:01   just from a cleanliness perspective, you just don't want to be doing that. The amount of

01:13:05   crumbs that must exist in between those cushions.

01:13:08   It's also kind of weird. Maybe you're sitting and suddenly there's a hand from someone else

01:13:14   in under your seat and you just see that and you've got all the safety stuff

01:13:18   right like you know you don't want to like open up a like life jacket

01:13:22   accidentally yeah yeah and you know some of them have like batteries and stuff

01:13:28   for the in-flight entertainment it's like just you just don't want to be

01:13:32   digging around in there but it's funny to me I just assumed that as we're using

01:13:35   more wireless devices things are starting to get lost a lot more mm-hmm

01:13:40   Yeah, so yeah, there's some cool stuff just to finish out what has been a challenging show

01:13:46   I think we've all been adversarial for everyone today. I hope that that we have provided content that you have enjoyed

01:13:53   Stephen can you please close us out? Yes, if you want to find links all the stuff we talked about this week

01:14:01   You can do so in your podcast app or on the website

01:14:04   relay.fm/connected/193

01:14:07   remember to go bid on that Logitech mouse user manual and

01:14:11   We're very excited to see who wins that if you want to get in touch with us. I

01:14:17   Mean you could just do it on Twitter. Don't worry about email this week

01:14:21   We can skip email this week. You can define this on Twitter. We all tweet as I am y ke

01:14:27   Just all three of us use that account all the time now. It's a chat account

01:14:31   This is a chat account if the spelling is wrong. It's me

01:14:36   If the spelling is is correct, and there's some fancy words

01:14:41   That was federal

01:14:44   And if if there is a level of high engagement lots of replies

01:14:50   Just just general mirth and and and good vibes. That's Steven

01:14:55   You've ever been described as somebody

01:14:58   Good vibes, but I'll take it

01:15:01   Just tweet it. I Myke and yeah, it will be fine

01:15:05   We'd like to thank our sponsors Linode Skillshare and the layers conference and we'll be back

01:15:10   So we have just a couple of weeks before

01:15:12   WWDC so next week

01:15:15   next week is our

01:15:17   regular show and the week after that

01:15:19   the week after that we are going to have our

01:15:22   Pre

01:15:25   WWDC episode and so we are going to repeat what we did last year, which is not necessarily

01:15:30   Predictions about what Apple will do but things that would make us the most happy

01:15:34   Which we had a lot of fun with last year, so we're gonna do that again

01:15:37   So look for that in a couple of weeks, but we'll be back. I can predict Stevens. It's just

01:15:44   Keyboards people like just keyboards falling from the sky and they're made of

01:15:49   Aqua hmm plastic. I mean they would still be better than what they're shipping today, so there it is okay there

01:15:56   We go we got it. We did it until next time boys say goodbye

01:15:59   What do I say again cheerio? You say cheerio come on cheerio?

01:16:04   Adios.