192: A Man of Movable Structure


00:00:00   (upbeat music)

00:00:02   From Relay FM, this is Connected, episode 192.

00:00:11   It's brought to you this week by our sponsors,

00:00:13   Pingdom, Casper, and the Layers Conference.

00:00:16   I'm your host, Steven Hackett,

00:00:17   and I am joined, Wonder of Wonders, by both of my co-hosts.

00:00:22   Federico Vittucci, how are you?

00:00:24   - Hi, Steven.

00:00:26   I'm a little, you know, I have this cold,

00:00:28   but I'm happy to be here,

00:00:29   And you told me that this episode was going to be strictly about business.

00:00:33   Very, very different tone for our comeback.

00:00:37   Yes. It's a lot of synergy and a lot of interdepartmental communication.

00:00:43   Perfect. Okay. Let's business.

00:00:46   Business right there. And we're joined by Myke Hurley.

00:00:48   I was pretending to not be here.

00:00:52   Can you pretend not to be here when we are on Skype together?

00:00:57   I could have walked away.

00:00:59   - Sure, okay, okay.

00:01:02   So we're doing the regular show again.

00:01:05   - We're gonna start with follow up.

00:01:06   That's where we start.

00:01:08   Texture for Windows is dead.

00:01:10   I don't know if anyone should be surprised by that.

00:01:14   Texture, of course, being the magazine subscription service

00:01:18   that Apple purchased back a couple of months ago,

00:01:20   I believe in March.

00:01:22   The Windows app will not survive through the end of June.

00:01:25   So users have been informed within email

00:01:28   saying that after June 30th,

00:01:31   it will no longer be on the Microsoft Store.

00:01:33   It is still, however, on Android and on iOS

00:01:37   and on Amazon Fire devices.

00:01:39   So if you have like a Kindle Fire or something,

00:01:41   your kid's running around with one of those.

00:01:43   It runs on that as well, but no longer on Windows.

00:01:46   The Verge says that the app had not been updated

00:01:48   in some time and it has a bunch of really bad reviews

00:01:52   about how poorly it works.

00:01:53   and maybe Apple is just cutting their losses on that

00:01:56   and not willing to invest in it.

00:01:58   I would imagine that the Android app

00:02:00   will probably stick around.

00:02:01   That seems like an important place to be

00:02:03   for a service like this, but who knows?

00:02:05   It may disappear from there as well.

00:02:07   Does anybody care?

00:02:08   Do you guys care about this?

00:02:09   - No. - No, I don't care.

00:02:10   - I was gonna make some snarky joke, right,

00:02:13   about like, you know,

00:02:15   ADQ said that they're committed to quality journalism

00:02:17   from trusted sources, but like I guess,

00:02:20   except if you're a Windows user, right?

00:02:22   Like you don't get it. You don't get good news. You get bad news.

00:02:26   But that's all I had.

00:02:28   That's the joke.

00:02:30   OK.

00:02:31   That was basically it.

00:02:33   Like, you know, obviously the delivery wasn't the same because I decided to just like tell you the

00:02:37   bones of the joke rather than like the real joke.

00:02:39   I mean, if you want, like I can try and do the actual joke.

00:02:41   It's fine. It's fine.

00:02:42   No, I think we're good.

00:02:43   Yeah, we're good.

00:02:44   We've got it now. We're all together on this one.

00:02:46   Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:02:47   OK.

00:02:48   All right. I'm playing the role of the cynic today.

00:02:51   - Oh, it's the year of optimist moment?

00:02:53   - Yeah.

00:02:54   - Is that?

00:02:55   - Well, it's coming to an end.

00:02:56   - No.

00:02:57   - But I have some optimism, but I have some cynicism.

00:03:01   - No.

00:03:02   - Mostly about robot voices, but we'll get to that

00:03:04   a little later on in the show.

00:03:06   - I like, I liked optimistic mic.

00:03:09   Bring it back, I don't want.

00:03:11   - All right, well.

00:03:12   - Yeah.

00:03:12   - Well, I mean, the year restarts at WWDC, right?

00:03:14   You're doing this June to June, so.

00:03:17   - Yeah.

00:03:18   We're gonna test it out today.

00:03:19   We're gonna see if cynicism should be the next year.

00:03:22   - It should be. - Okay.

00:03:24   - No, it shouldn't.

00:03:25   - Speaking of cynicism, let's talk about Things 3.

00:03:28   This is an app that Federico,

00:03:30   you've been preaching the good news of for some time,

00:03:32   including on the show.

00:03:33   And I was in some hot water with our listeners

00:03:38   for kind of writing it off.

00:03:39   And so I've been giving it some more time.

00:03:42   And I wrote this blog post the other night

00:03:44   because I finally understand the way

00:03:46   it wants me to repeat tasks.

00:03:47   The UI is terrible, but I get it.

00:03:49   I like a lot about things three.

00:03:50   I like that you can have lists within projects.

00:03:52   It's all very clever, but there is one massive problem

00:03:56   with it that totally breaks the way that I work,

00:03:59   and that is that repeating tasks

00:04:01   cannot be checked off before they're due.

00:04:03   So it's kinda hard to explain,

00:04:05   but say that I have a task every Wednesday

00:04:08   to take out the trash, and say that I take that out

00:04:11   Tuesday night, I can't mark it complete until Wednesday,

00:04:14   and that's really stupid.

00:04:16   And I wrote a blog post basically saying that,

00:04:18   and a bunch of people agreed,

00:04:19   and Culture Code has finally issued a statement

00:04:22   on the matter, because I guess a bunch of people

00:04:25   were adding them with the blog post.

00:04:28   - They got hacketed.

00:04:30   - They did.

00:04:30   Saying that it is something they will be adding,

00:04:34   but they can't offer a specific date yet.

00:04:37   Clearly they can't mark it off before the due date

00:04:39   they do put in it.

00:04:40   So I guess there's some stress there.

00:04:42   - That's the problem.

00:04:44   Yay! You made the joke!

00:04:47   Isn't it, this is like one of those things where nobody listens to podcasts, right?

00:04:54   Yeah.

00:04:55   Because we have spoken about this like four times now.

00:04:59   People do listen to podcasts, but because you can't link to them...

00:05:03   Yeah, let me rephrase it. Nobody pays attention, right? Except for the people that listen.

00:05:08   We have a very large business based on podcast listeners.

00:05:11   It's like my nobody is qualitative, right?

00:05:14   Sure.

00:05:15   It's like nobody will pay attention, right?

00:05:19   Unless they're already listening.

00:05:20   The people that listen, they pay a lot of attention.

00:05:23   But I would assume that the person who tweeted to you, who read your article, wasn't paying

00:05:28   attention to the show?

00:05:29   I don't know, right?

00:05:30   But like, it's just funny to me that we've spoken about this multiple times now and it

00:05:36   took you writing about it on your blog.

00:05:39   Even though blogging is dead and we all know that, it took that to get things to respond

00:05:44   to you.

00:05:45   It's very funny to me.

00:05:46   It is something.

00:05:47   We all agreed that blogging is dead.

00:05:49   We all agreed that, right?

00:05:50   Yeah, blogging is totally dead.

00:05:51   For sure.

00:05:52   Yeah.

00:05:53   Okay, cool.

00:05:54   So I look forward to this being fixed because I think I've talked about this, something

00:05:56   like two thirds or something of my tasks each week are repeating.

00:06:01   It's the nature of owning a business.

00:06:02   You are a man of structure, right?

00:06:04   I'm a man of structure.

00:06:06   And our business has things that need done at certain times.

00:06:10   It's not some walking around in the forest singing to ourselves.

00:06:14   This is a real business.

00:06:15   You're a man of movable structure, right?

00:06:17   The structure is there, but you like to do it on your own terms.

00:06:20   Right.

00:06:21   Sometimes you want to do Tuesday's task on Monday.

00:06:23   Sure.

00:06:24   Or if I've wrapped up Tuesday's stuff and, "Oh, hey, look, I got this thing tomorrow

00:06:27   morning.

00:06:28   I can get a jump on the day," then I'm going to do that because I'm a responsible adult.

00:06:31   And so I'm excited that things do--

00:06:32   I do this too, right?

00:06:35   It really does baffle my mind that this is a restriction.

00:06:40   In my mind, everybody does this.

00:06:42   I'm surprised.

00:06:44   And no other app does this.

00:06:46   No other app works this way.

00:06:48   I've used them all.

00:06:50   Trust me, they're all on the dock on my Mac right now because I'm in between four to-do

00:06:53   apps again.

00:06:54   Every to-do app has their foibles.

00:06:56   They all have them.

00:06:57   I guess they must be institutionally against the idea of getting a head start on things

00:07:03   that are coming next.

00:07:04   Like when I was in elementary school and I was a really good student, but my mom used

00:07:09   to tell me all the time that if I had the time, I should get the homework for like,

00:07:14   I don't know, two days after, get done in advance. And it was really against that idea

00:07:20   because if I'm done with the homework for tomorrow, why should I also work on the homework

00:07:26   for Thursday? Like I'm going to get it done day by day. So I was really against that idea.

00:07:31   And then I changed my mind when I was in high school.

00:07:33   So maybe things in a way, they're still

00:07:35   in elementary school, and they need to learn

00:07:37   that adults like to get things done in advance.

00:07:41   So maybe they're growing up.

00:07:43   That's my, that's the metaphor I choose to use today.

00:07:46   - So we'll see where it goes.

00:07:48   There are a couple other things

00:07:49   and things that still bother me.

00:07:50   This by far is the showstopper.

00:07:52   Like I don't love that the start date

00:07:55   is the most important thing in the UI

00:07:56   and the due date's sort of an afterthought,

00:07:59   but if you want dates to be preserved in the past,

00:08:02   you have to use due date, like that's all confusing,

00:08:04   but I can work around it.

00:08:05   So we'll see what happens when they ship this eventually,

00:08:11   if I'll make the move to things or not,

00:08:12   but I just wanted to share that I got the dying graphs

00:08:17   of power out of blogging one last time.

00:08:19   - So you're back on Remember the Milk now?

00:08:22   Is that what you're using?

00:08:23   - No comment.

00:08:24   No, I'm not.

00:08:27   Speaking of blogging, I put this in the document

00:08:29   and I got moans from both of you,

00:08:31   so I'm not going to drag you through this.

00:08:33   But I just want to say it because it's me.

00:08:38   This week is the 20th anniversary of the iMac.

00:08:40   And so there's some stuff over on 512Pixels.

00:08:42   Jason Snell wrote a thing on six colors.

00:08:44   Anything on Mac, I'll link to it all on the site.

00:08:47   About this very important computer.

00:08:49   And I know I spent a lot of time

00:08:51   a couple years ago with them.

00:08:53   It's just, it's hard to overstate the impact

00:08:55   this single machine had because it gave Apple the money

00:08:59   and the runway to do things like OS X,

00:09:01   which got them to the iPod.

00:09:02   And after that, it's kind of all the romantic turnaround

00:09:05   story that we all know and love.

00:09:07   This machine was sort of ground zero for that.

00:09:09   And the thing that really blows my mind

00:09:11   is I didn't really realize that when I wrote this post,

00:09:13   but I realized that afterwards,

00:09:14   there's only 14 years between the original Macintosh

00:09:17   and the iMac, and now we're 20 years after the iMac.

00:09:20   - Oh, cool.

00:09:22   That's weird.

00:09:23   - And the OS X era is now longer

00:09:24   the classic Mac OS era, it's weird to think about.

00:09:28   Yeah, I think the only reason that me and Federico expressed any moans over this is,

00:09:32   I, yes, this is something that should definitely be recognized as a thing that happened. But I would

00:09:37   say that we have spent an extreme amount of time over the course of this show talking about the

00:09:44   iMac, right? Because you went on your color vision quest. Yes. Like, I feel like that we have,

00:09:50   we have really done a service to that computer in a way that I would be surprised if you

00:09:56   had anything new to say about it. I mean, you could correct me if I'm wrong, but we

00:10:00   have spent a lot of time on it.

00:10:02   I just wanted to say, hey, the anniversary is now.

00:10:04   Yeah, it should be marked. I say it is important, and I'm very happy that it happened, and it

00:10:09   was a wonderful little machine. And I know, Stephen, we can talk about this later on,

00:10:14   but you have some exciting things coming later on in the summer about this again.

00:10:18   Yes, we'll talk about that soon.

00:10:19   Keep an eye out for that.

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00:11:46   - So WWDC is just around the corner,

00:11:49   just three weeks away or so.

00:11:51   - So it's time to talk about.

00:11:53   - So it's time to talk about WWDC 2019.

00:11:58   - Woo!

00:11:59   - iOS 12 we will know all about in just a couple of weeks,

00:12:02   but it's time to talk about iOS 13, because--

00:12:04   - Yeah, iOS 12 is boring.

00:12:06   - They're doing another one?

00:12:09   - It's because the iPad only gets updated every other year.

00:12:12   (laughing)

00:12:14   - Did you just get told if you don't know?

00:12:18   (laughing)

00:12:20   - Surprise.

00:12:21   So that's what we're talking about.

00:12:22   So Mark Gurman has a collection of tweets and stuff.

00:12:25   MacRumors has rounded it all up.

00:12:27   About iOS 13, so a year out, code name Yukon.

00:12:32   And the idea here is that it is going to be,

00:12:34   or include a lot of iPad goodies,

00:12:37   including a redesigned home screen for the iPad,

00:12:40   A revamped photos app, improved files app.

00:12:44   I think one that I'm most excited about honestly is

00:12:47   support for using the same app side by side

00:12:50   like you can in Safari.

00:12:51   Like, I would love to have that in Google Docs

00:12:54   or Sheets in particular.

00:12:55   And unspecified improvements to the Apple Pencil.

00:12:58   So, lots of iOS stuff.

00:13:00   I wanna talk about this stuff, but before we get into it,

00:13:02   how do you guys feel about this every other year pattern?

00:13:07   Because we had iOS 11, and before that we had iOS 9,

00:13:10   If 13 is the next one, that's three dots.

00:13:14   That makes a pretty convincing line that every 24 months we're going to see iPad stuff.

00:13:18   Is that often enough for what Apple says is the future of computing?

00:13:23   - Before we get to that answer, which is a very good question, it's funny to me that

00:13:29   Gorman tweeted this.

00:13:30   I think this shows the difference between 9to5Mac and Bloomberg.

00:13:35   I expect Bloomberg, they want more sources or whatever than he can give.

00:13:40   this is an article. Like, that's an article because MacRumors wrote it, you know, like

00:13:45   they took Germa's tweet and wrote an article with it. But he has not published this, right?

00:13:49   I don't think, on anywhere, but it's stuff that he knows. So that's just funny to me.

00:13:53   It must be something to do with like sources and where the information is coming from.

00:13:57   But anyway, Federico, why don't you answer Steven's great question?

00:14:00   I think we're starting to see this sort of written to the iPad and to productivity enhancements

00:14:07   to iOS in that we're getting the big release and then the mid-cycle refresh.

00:14:12   And like if you look for example last year we you know with iOS 11 we

00:14:19   got the big release but the iPads they were not like major from a hardware

00:14:26   perspective I mean sure there were the 10.5 and the ProMotion but it wasn't a

00:14:31   radical new design. And this year we're getting the what people say it's a

00:14:36   boring iPad release, but in theory we should be getting the new iPad design with the edge-to-edge

00:14:43   design and Face ID. It's an exciting upgrade. And then next year we're probably going to

00:14:49   get the boring hardware but the exciting software. So there's this TikTok schedule to the iPad

00:14:56   software and hardware that I think is interesting. I don't know if it's the optimal way to do

00:15:02   you know, say this is the future of computing but it's coming on a two-year

00:15:06   schedule. Sometimes you just gotta take what you can get, right? Yeah, I mean...

00:15:12   I would prefer that like TikTok to just the Tik and then four years later there's a tok.

00:15:17   Sure. I wonder if we are seeing some kind of pattern here but

00:15:24   instead it's just an anomaly, like Apple is running into whatever problems they're

00:15:30   running into in terms of bugs and stability and speed and performance.

00:15:34   So this is not like a thing, it's just what Apple needs to fix this year.

00:15:38   Because I'm surprised that, for example, stuff like files that came out last year is going

00:15:43   to get improved in 2019.

00:15:47   I don't know if Apple wanted to do this.

00:15:50   Stuff like, for example, Tabs, which launched in Safari, I think, in iOS 10.

00:15:56   And everybody thought, oh, well, for sure, this is going to be an API next year.

00:16:01   And instead it wasn't.

00:16:02   So I don't know if Apple wanted these iPad improvements to be postponed to 2019.

00:16:10   But maybe they made a decision that this year it was more important to focus on improving

00:16:15   iOS and whatever other things that we're going to talk about later that they're doing in

00:16:20   iOS 12.

00:16:21   I think it's okay.

00:16:23   I don't think it's the optimal way and I don't think it should be like always what Apple

00:16:30   does.

00:16:31   I think it's more like an anomaly and it will change.

00:16:33   If they truly believe that the iPad is the future, I think it will change.

00:16:37   I am fine with a two year software cycle as long as we get bug fixes to iOS 11 introduced

00:16:45   features.

00:16:46   There are a bunch of bugs in files which need to be worked out.

00:16:51   And also as Federico said, if we get new iPad Pro hardware, like and it's really cool hardware,

00:16:56   like I'm fine to wait.

00:16:57   Right?

00:16:58   I think part of the reason that we were getting a little bit antsy before WWDC last year is

00:17:03   we had hardware that was coming up to two years old and no software for the same amount

00:17:09   of time.

00:17:10   Right?

00:17:11   There was just nothing happening with the bigger iPad Pro.

00:17:14   So getting something every year is fine for me, because I feel like if you get one, then

00:17:23   you feel confident you're going to get the other.

00:17:26   So if we get new iPad Pro hardware this year, I'm going to feel very confident there will

00:17:29   be new software stuff next year.

00:17:31   And then that will just keep ticking through for me, because part of the problem with all

00:17:37   of this stuff is if you see nothing happening, you assume nothing at all is happening, because

00:17:42   you can't see anything.

00:17:43   You can't see anything, so you're not going to assume that anything else is going on.

00:17:47   And those iOS 13 potential things, like revised home screen and better files app and side-by-side

00:17:56   apps, all of that sounds amazing.

00:17:59   And I'm cool to wait.

00:18:00   I would like that stuff now, but I can wait for it.

00:18:04   I can be patient.

00:18:05   I want to talk about the home screen rumor quickly.

00:18:09   The idea that the home screen, especially on the iPad, I think Gherman said, is going

00:18:14   to get a major revamp.

00:18:15   It's interesting to me because if you look at iOS 11 and the importance of the dock,

00:18:22   especially for multitasking, for split view and slide over, and if you look at the role,

00:18:29   sort of the diminished role of the home screen in general, I've seen tons of people basically

00:18:35   stop caring about the home screen and just put stuff in the dock, whether it's app icons

00:18:41   or folders. The dock is super important because of the way that you bring up apps into multitasking.

00:18:48   So I wonder if maybe the home screen could get the kind of revamp that basically has

00:18:53   been rumored for years. So allow users to essentially install widgets or, you know,

00:19:00   little custom interfaces or maybe document shortcuts or application shortcuts, which

00:19:06   we're also going to talk about in regard to Android later. But the idea of customizing

00:19:11   the home screen and letting users pin widgets, documents, files, shortcuts, especially when

00:19:19   you consider not only the doc, but also like in iOS 11, Apple got rid of the multiple column

00:19:28   layout in the widget view, which I thought

00:19:32   was sort of a weird decision.

00:19:34   Oh, man, yeah.

00:19:35   Used to be--

00:19:35   I forgot about that.

00:19:36   Yeah, and I was really upset about that.

00:19:38   I was really upset about that.

00:19:40   And I brought it up with some folks, I think,

00:19:42   last year privately.

00:19:43   And the consensus was just wait.

00:19:48   And usually then-- I don't want to read too much into it,

00:19:51   but usually just wait means we're doing something else.

00:19:54   But then--

00:19:54   Yeah, and I was 13 and we're going to get six rows,

00:19:57   six rows of widgets.

00:19:57   I don't know what to think.

00:19:58   It's just super tiny.

00:19:59   But home screen revamp.

00:20:00   I mean, home screen revamp.

00:20:02   It does not mean that Apple is now letting you, you know, instead of six rows you can

00:20:05   do seven rows.

00:20:06   I don't think it's that.

00:20:08   So it must be...

00:20:09   It may just mean that though, right?

00:20:10   It may.

00:20:11   It may.

00:20:12   Or...

00:20:13   All I want is the icons not to move when they rotate.

00:20:15   Just like, just don't make a new line.

00:20:17   Also that.

00:20:18   So how do you guys feel about having widgets or other stuff on the home screen?

00:20:22   Widgets have to get significantly better than they currently are for me to care about that.

00:20:27   Honestly, right? Like I just don't... I use like a couple of widgets.

00:20:32   Maybe I use some basic information, but like I would want to see, and I guess it would, right?

00:20:37   Like if they're going to go on the home screen, people will probably put more work into them.

00:20:41   But I use like three widgets that are useful and the rest that I've ever tried for most of the apps that I use.

00:20:48   It's just like, here's a button and you press the button and it just opens the app, right?

00:20:53   I don't really... I want more than that, you know?

00:20:56   Like, Fantastic Health's widgets are good.

00:20:59   There's an app that I use called Clock, K-L-O-K,

00:21:01   which is like a wild clock widget, which is good.

00:21:05   And Carrot Weathers is good. But that's kind of it for me.

00:21:08   Yeah. It would be nice to have stuff like interactive,

00:21:13   like more interactive interfaces or widgets.

00:21:16   Because right now you swipe over and you basically can tap a few buttons.

00:21:20   But the widgets are super limited.

00:21:22   There's no real deep interaction.

00:21:26   It's just usually like a list of stuff that you can choose.

00:21:29   Like when you run a workflow from a widget,

00:21:31   you can just tap around a few things.

00:21:34   So I would love to see like ways to not force me

00:21:38   to open an application every single time

00:21:40   I need to do something more complex

00:21:42   than just glance at like a list of items.

00:21:46   I don't know if Apple is against that idea.

00:21:49   It's very Android-ish in the sense that

00:21:52   You can now do more stuff outside of the app itself.

00:21:55   But I mean, that would be a revamp of the home screen

00:21:59   for sure.

00:22:00   I would love that, honestly.

00:22:02   - I would like something.

00:22:03   Right, like even if it is just the widgets that I don't use,

00:22:07   the home screen feels so old at this point, right?

00:22:11   Like the app grid just feels so stagnant.

00:22:16   Like nothing, it's not changed in like,

00:22:19   in over 10 years.

00:22:22   That's an incredible amount of time considering how much work they've done to the rest of

00:22:26   the OS.

00:22:27   Like iOS in many places is completely unrecognizable to iOS 1.

00:22:33   Like iOS 11 is in a lot of places, you would look at these two things and you would never

00:22:38   know that they came from the same place except for the home screen because it looks exactly

00:22:45   the same.

00:22:46   The only difference is there's no shine on the apps anymore and the dock is a different

00:22:49   color.

00:22:50   basically it. So I would love to see anything done to it because it's needed at this point.

00:22:58   So the build conference was this past week and Microsoft announced that all consumer

00:23:03   apps, not games, sold in the Microsoft store are going to see a revenue split now of 95%

00:23:10   to developers and 5% to Microsoft. This split is only applicable if somebody buys your app

00:23:17   via a link to the store or from a search.

00:23:20   If Microsoft has featured your application,

00:23:22   and that's how the purchase was initiated,

00:23:24   you get 85%, which is still a lot.

00:23:27   So obviously, Microsoft are doing this

00:23:30   because they're in a place of weakness

00:23:33   when it comes to software in their store,

00:23:36   because whilst there is still lots of Windows software,

00:23:39   I think people sell it outside of the store.

00:23:41   Basically the same problem Apple has with the Mac App Store,

00:23:44   but Microsoft has just the one store

00:23:46   all of its devices, right? So 95% is a pretty huge cut, which of course makes a lot of people

00:23:56   that are developing on Apple's platforms think to themselves, "Wow, wouldn't it be nice if

00:24:03   Apple gave us 95%?" So I wonder, I mean, obviously we had the subscription app thing, right, where

00:24:09   it went from 30 to 15%, right? If somebody had been subscribed for a year, the cut that you got

00:24:15   was significantly increased from 70 to 85%. But do we expect Apple to ever break from

00:24:22   the standard 70/30 split?

00:24:26   I think they should. I don't know if I expect them to, but I think they should, especially

00:24:31   because it's been 10 years since the App Store launched. And yes, maybe the App Store

00:24:36   now costs more money to maintain and to run on a daily basis, but also Apple is making

00:24:43   tons more money than what they were making in 2008. So I'm surprised that it's remained

00:24:49   the same this long, honestly. Even just, I'm not saying Apple should, you know, do it for

00:24:54   free or give developers 95%, but maybe just moving from 17 to 80% and retaining 20%. That

00:25:03   would be, that would be super welcome. It feels like, I mean, they must be making, they

00:25:09   They must be making a lot of money off of, you know, games, especially on the App Store,

00:25:15   and in-app purchases and all that kind of stuff, and subscriptions.

00:25:18   But they did lower the commission on subscriptions for the second year.

00:25:24   So it's possible.

00:25:26   It's clearly possible.

00:25:27   And I struggle to believe that Apple is breaking even on the App Store.

00:25:35   It feels especially for developers who don't make, you know, I'm not arguing that Netflix

00:25:40   should get a cut or Spotify should get a cut, you know, these big companies.

00:25:44   But it feels a little unfair that the, you know, the smaller development studio or the

00:25:49   indie developer, the small company is treated the same way as the huge corporation with

00:25:54   tons of money.

00:25:55   I don't know.

00:25:57   Is this a socialist argument?

00:25:59   I don't know.

00:26:00   I don't know.

00:26:01   Maybe.

00:26:02   Maybe.

00:26:03   Apple make a lot of money, you know, and I know that they're a business but it can be argued that maybe they don't need all the money

00:26:09   right, like I don't if they went from

00:26:12   70 to 80

00:26:16   Mm-hmm, of course it would be for

00:26:19   Basically every company except them in the world would be a really significant change to their balance sheet

00:26:26   But I don't I just I really struggle to believe that it would be to apples considering

00:26:32   This is part of the services revenue, right?

00:26:35   Yes, yes. Yeah, what was the services revenue? There was a tweet

00:26:40   I think from German about the quarterly results that Apple has has said that the the services growth is

00:26:47   Driven primarily from the App Store not not that Apple music and iCloud storage aren't contributing

00:26:52   They are because Apple music is growing leaps and bounds, but that the App Store is still the engine behind that service growth

00:26:58   changing this from

00:27:01   You know even even like a 10% change would would I think probably be noticeable in that services number

00:27:09   Each quarter so it would be I think they agree with Federico

00:27:12   I think they should do it, but I don't know if I expect them to yeah

00:27:15   Well, they can't now because they need to double their services right here

00:27:19   Yeah, because they have pumped and they have put so much focus on the services revenue as their growth area right they cannot

00:27:28   They cannot have it wrong. They can't

00:27:30   where like again like again it's what nine it was nine billion right it was

00:27:36   nine billion dollars out of sixty one billion dollars so like if they you know

00:27:41   if they lost two billion from that it would be totally fine in the overall

00:27:46   picture for them right because it's just how much money they're bringing in but

00:27:50   if they took that off of the nine billion that they're at now or whatever

00:27:54   it would drop them back down to like pre 2017 levels which they can't do right

00:27:59   now because services is the growth area, that's where their chart is consistently going up.

00:28:05   So even if they wanted to, they're kind of bound by Wall Street right now, right?

00:28:09   Yeah, I think so.

00:28:10   Yeah, also about...

00:28:11   That's a shame.

00:28:12   I wanted to talk about Microsoft's approach here.

00:28:15   So the idea that games do not qualify for this lower commission, I could see how this

00:28:22   could go terribly on the App Store, because developers could game the system and just

00:28:28   "Oh, this is not a game, this is an app and it can qualify for..."

00:28:34   I feel like that this is not for the small developers though. This is to stop the amount

00:28:40   of money they would have to give to EA because the Microsoft store is where you buy PC games.

00:28:47   So that's why they're doing this because the money that goes through the Microsoft store

00:28:51   is for games. So if they gave them 95%, Microsoft's games division would lose all of its money.

00:29:03   It would just all go away.

00:29:04   Isn't that happening anyway? But still, yes.

00:29:07   Oh! Wow! Six pounds.

00:29:10   I'm sorry.

00:29:11   Well, I mean, there's the question too of like, any way you divide this up, if you say

00:29:16   games don't get it, but other apps do, or you have to be an indie developer and big

00:29:21   companies will do it. No matter where you cut the pie, there will always be somebody

00:29:25   right under the knife blade. Someone will always feel like they're on the wrong side

00:29:29   of the fence by just a hair's margin. And so, anything like this has to be extremely

00:29:36   well thought out and extremely well communicated. So when Apple makes a decision that a developer

00:29:42   doesn't like, the developer at least knows what went into that conversation. When they

00:29:48   They did the deal with subscriptions where,

00:29:50   hey, if I'm a subscriber to Evernote through the app

00:29:55   and after the first year they get more of my money,

00:29:59   that's pretty clear, right?

00:30:01   It's very understandable what happens when

00:30:04   and if I stop my subscription and then I rejoin it later,

00:30:09   what happens?

00:30:10   Apple thought through all that.

00:30:11   I don't, maybe I just have missed it,

00:30:13   but I don't think there's been any wide complaints

00:30:17   about the way that system works.

00:30:19   But that's different than Apple or Microsoft

00:30:22   defining what your app is and what kind of developer you are

00:30:25   and that depends on how much you get paid,

00:30:27   depends on that.

00:30:28   So it's super complicated and messy.

00:30:30   I'm not saying that that's a reason not to do it,

00:30:32   but I think it's something worth considering

00:30:34   that this is not as easy as just changing

00:30:37   the little thing in the Excel spreadsheet

00:30:40   when they pay everybody.

00:30:40   It seems to be more complicated than that.

00:30:42   - Let me ask you this though.

00:30:44   Do you feel like, compared to 10 years ago,

00:30:48   that there's a change of sentiment toward Apple that--

00:30:52   sort of like a David and Goliath situation,

00:30:57   that 10 years ago when Apple introduced the App Store,

00:31:00   everybody felt like they're making us a huge favor.

00:31:04   They only retain 30%, and we get everything for free.

00:31:08   So we don't have to care about hosting.

00:31:09   We don't have to care about marketing,

00:31:11   because Apple is taking care of the payments

00:31:13   and all of that stuff, and everybody was happy. Because, you know, selling software on the

00:31:17   Internet used to be, you know, not easy to do. And these days, it feels to me like I've

00:31:23   seen these arguments made on Twitter and on some blogs that Apple is now this huge corporation

00:31:28   with tons of money and 30% is too much. And some developers saying, well, we actually

00:31:33   went back to selling software on our own website. And these days, it's fine. So we don't feel

00:31:39   like Apple retaining 30% is a fair commission anymore. Have you guys seen this type of feeling?

00:31:46   Yep. Yep. But I don't think it, I don't think Apple's the problem. I think that people are

00:31:52   like they're, they are focusing their anger at Apple, but like if you think about it,

00:31:58   they're offering all the same stuff that they offered back in 2008. There's more stuff,

00:32:03   right? There are more things than there ever were before. They've improved a bunch of areas.

00:32:07   Like if you ask, I think probably the same people sometimes out of context,

00:32:12   they'll tell you that the app store has gotten a lot better in the last year or

00:32:14   two, right? With like approval times and all that sort of stuff increasing, like

00:32:17   the speed. The problem isn't Apple, in my opinion, it's that the tide changed.

00:32:23   Like when the app store debuted, small indie app developers were making the

00:32:30   bulk of the money.

00:32:33   Now they don't. Now it's free to play iOS games with in-app purchase.

00:32:38   And whilst Apple could and probably should do a lot about the in-app purchase stuff,

00:32:44   right, because, you know, that growth in the in the app store, that growth is in like in-app

00:32:50   purchases for coins in Clash of Clans, right?

00:32:54   Right.

00:32:54   Right. Like that's where that growth is.

00:32:56   But I think that because the pie is now very different,

00:33:01   people are more upset about the App Store in general

00:33:07   and the App Store economics.

00:33:09   And the only people that they can focus it on,

00:33:12   the only individual, the only entity that it can be focused

00:33:15   on if you are upset about it, is Apple.

00:33:17   It's like, Apple, you must fix this.

00:33:19   But now Apple can't fix it.

00:33:20   It is what it is and they can do a bunch of stuff

00:33:23   to maybe make some things better.

00:33:24   but the idea of fixing it, meaning we want more money again,

00:33:29   that ship has probably sailed at this point.

00:33:32   - I think so.

00:33:33   Yeah, it's definitely complicated,

00:33:35   and I don't envy anyone who makes their living

00:33:38   on the App Store and has set their boat upon those waves.

00:33:43   But there is discussion too, I think,

00:33:48   related to this in things like how the App Store

00:33:51   improved for developers and what else Apple could do to benefit it. You know there was

00:33:58   a lot of talk. When did they add the search ads? Was that last year? Was that with Eleven?

00:34:03   No I think it was a couple of years ago. Whenever it was. You know that has been I think a pretty

00:34:09   mixed bag for a lot of developers and search is still pretty bad. Like you search for a

00:34:13   third party app you know the name of and its competitors ad shows up or the competitors

00:34:16   top you know. There's still a lot of… The competitors ad showing up is not a problem

00:34:20   because that's the point of the system, right? But like your app not showing up at all, which

00:34:24   does happen sometimes, that's the problem.

00:34:26   I think there are rules around buying against your competitors' names that are not positive.

00:34:33   I think they allowed that. I think they allowed that, that you could buy against your competitors'

00:34:38   names.

00:34:39   I do remember something like Steven about the keywords, like a recommendation by Apple

00:34:45   maybe? I don't know. I don't remember.

00:34:48   That's whatever the result that stuff could all be better search could be better I think

00:34:52   Developers who are featured in there in the app stores like you know really rich

00:34:58   Ecosystem have articles and and listen stuff. I think they're still seeing a benefit from that, but there's there's pros and cons there as well

00:35:05   so

00:35:07   Yes, more money would be great, and I'm sure if you're a developer you're smashing your phone

00:35:11   And in hopes that we say apples to do this 100%

00:35:16   I think they should.

00:35:17   But I think there's other stuff here

00:35:19   while we're talking about the App Store,

00:35:20   while we're talking about developers,

00:35:21   other things that Apple could do.

00:35:23   Because like you said, Microsoft doing this,

00:35:26   Microsoft's position in some ways is a lot simpler

00:35:29   because the Microsoft Store is really bad.

00:35:32   And they are trying to draw developers into it.

00:35:35   They're trying to draw customers to it.

00:35:37   And they are, I mean, I think the Mac App Store is barren,

00:35:41   like just load up the Microsoft Store sometime on a PC.

00:35:43   It's not a great look in there.

00:35:45   and a lot of stuff like these progressive web apps.

00:35:47   Like Twitter has a new Windows app,

00:35:49   but it's really just a progressive web app

00:35:51   that they put in the store.

00:35:52   So Microsoft's trying to grow their base.

00:35:55   Apple is trying to steer a ship that is massive

00:35:58   and already going 100 miles an hour.

00:36:00   And it's more complicated when you try to do that, I think.

00:36:05   But we'll see.

00:36:07   I mean, this would be great news for developers,

00:36:09   for all of our friends who make their living

00:36:10   on the App Store.

00:36:12   More money in their pocket is good.

00:36:13   I think it would benefit,

00:36:15   It would obviously benefit developers,

00:36:16   but I think it would benefit users as well

00:36:19   because developers would be better incentivized

00:36:21   or maybe even in some cases maybe this 10 or 15%

00:36:24   would make it possible for them to do a lot more

00:36:26   in their app that they struggle to do now.

00:36:28   So I'd say Apple should pay up.

00:36:31   - I would maybe say that if they're gonna do this,

00:36:34   maybe they should focus on the Mac App Store first, right?

00:36:37   Because they're good for the iOS App Store, right?

00:36:42   The iOS App Store has got lots of apps.

00:36:44   The Mac App Store could maybe do a little bit of incentivizing.

00:36:48   Yeah.

00:36:49   I mean, if Marzipan or whatever is coming at some point, then I think the Mac App Store

00:36:56   is on hold until whatever that is happens.

00:37:00   Because then I could imagine them saying, "We'll give you an extra 5% if you put it

00:37:03   on the Mac," or whatever, that you might get like, there might be some kind of incentivizing

00:37:09   there, and I could see something like that.

00:37:10   It's called a bribe.

00:37:11   You could stand over all.

00:37:12   developers. I would say, you know, as I said to you before, Federico, sometimes,

00:37:17   sometimes you just need to grease the palm, right? Sure, yes. Sometimes that's the way you get things done.

00:37:22   Who said that to me before? I have a feature request that I'm just gonna, I've tweeted

00:37:28   about it and I'm gonna put it out on the show too. Do not disturb while watching

00:37:33   video. I would like that. Yes. Because, I mean, there should be better do not disturb

00:37:38   options in general, and we're gonna talk about this a little bit more in a moment,

00:37:41   and also when we talk about Google I/O shortly, but I would be like to I would

00:37:46   like to be able right to have a setting to show no notifications while watching

00:37:50   video because all day I work on my 12.9 inch iPad so notifications can be useful

00:37:57   there right like that you you're sitting in front of the device and it's such a

00:38:01   big screen that a notification coming down doesn't really get in your way and

00:38:04   it's there if you need it and you can tune them and you can have whatever you

00:38:07   won't come up. Like if I get slack DMs and stuff which typically I want to know about.

00:38:13   And then also as well like you know I could get them on my watch or I could get them on

00:38:16   my phone but it's way better to have it on the device that you're actually using at that

00:38:19   time so you can tap it and go to the notification. But on that same device I also watch video

00:38:24   in the evening so like when sometimes when me and Adina are eating or pretty much every

00:38:28   day when we're eating we'll like to have a show on in the background and with the way

00:38:32   that our house is set up it's easier to just put the iPad on the on the dining table and

00:38:36   we'll watch something there and then we might watch continue watching it later

00:38:39   on the sofa right it's just the iPad is like a portable screen that we can use

00:38:43   for this stuff so what I what I don't want then is when I'm watching that

00:38:47   video for notifications to be coming through because that's really

00:38:50   frustrating and annoying for everybody and I've thought about like experimenting

00:38:55   with setting do not disturb from like 7 p.m. on my iPad Pro but I don't think

00:39:00   this is the best way to solve this problem because then it wouldn't account

00:39:03   for weekends, right? So let's say that we're like, we're earlier in the day, we're watching

00:39:08   something on it. And then then the notifications start coming through because the do not disturb

00:39:12   is not set up properly. I also don't want to be in this situation where like, I have

00:39:16   to remember to do a thing. So like, I don't want to ever have to like, I don't want to

00:39:21   be in a situation where I have to remember to set do not disturb every time we sit down.

00:39:24   I had a few people recommend trying guided access, and like setting it as a shortcut

00:39:30   on the home button.

00:39:31   This is that thing where you can set up an iPad

00:39:33   and kind of lock it into a certain application or whatever,

00:39:36   and with guided access it is possible

00:39:38   to disable notifications when you're in that mode.

00:39:41   But I also don't want to do that

00:39:43   because it's the same as the do not disturb thing

00:39:44   where I'm only ever going to remember to do that

00:39:47   after the first notification comes in,

00:39:49   and I will be annoyed about it every single time.

00:39:51   Like every single time it happens,

00:39:52   which will be pretty much every day,

00:39:53   it will always annoy me.

00:39:55   So I think that also this could be extended,

00:39:58   like screen mirroring, for example,

00:40:01   you should never get notifications

00:40:02   when you're in screen mirroring mode.

00:40:05   Like that's just a bad idea.

00:40:06   - We actually talked about that on query recently.

00:40:09   On the Mac, if you do that, it puts it in do not disturb,

00:40:12   but it doesn't do it on, it blows my mind,

00:40:14   it doesn't do it on iOS.

00:40:17   - And just in general, like all of the do not disturb

00:40:20   settings are not good enough in my opinion,

00:40:22   but I think that this one is a simple one

00:40:25   that could be added.

00:40:25   And I was reminded by Federico that he had written about this in his iOS 11 review as

00:40:31   well.

00:40:32   And I obviously have read it.

00:40:33   Yeah.

00:40:34   The idea of when I'm watching a video I don't want to be disturbed.

00:40:37   I can so relate to your problem, Myke.

00:40:42   Every time we're watching like a TV show or a movie and so Sylvia is like, "Why are your

00:40:47   friends talking to you?"

00:40:48   It's like the way that she uses your friends, it makes me feel bad because it's all like

00:40:53   work notifications and stuff. And I do think that there should be either

00:41:00   like an automatic mode in settings to say whenever I'm watching a video

00:41:05   engage, do not disturb. Or maybe here's a free idea, there could be a little do not

00:41:12   disturb icon in the video player UI. Apple has a standard video player UI on iOS

00:41:17   and there's enough room to put in like a little moon icon that you can tap and

00:41:22   you and able to not disturb on a video by video basis, I suppose. But I would very much

00:41:28   prefer like a system API and a setting that developers can also use so it would work with

00:41:33   Hulu, it would work with HBO, with YouTube and whatever. And everybody could say the

00:41:38   user is watching a video so do not disturb is on. And also I think I was looking on Twitter

00:41:44   a few days ago, Mark Gurman, he was on this tweet storm about WWDC that was not an article,

00:41:50   it was a tweet storm. And it just casually mentioned, this is what it does now, just

00:41:55   casually mentioned that Do Not Disturb is getting a bunch of improvements in iOS 12.

00:42:01   And I was wondering about that, like what does it mean that it will be more granular,

00:42:05   more fine-grained controls? I would love to see, first of all, filters for individual

00:42:12   apps. Because maybe I want to enable Do Not Deserve for everything except Slack, for example,

00:42:20   or except iMessage. So it would be nice to have these kind of exceptions to the general

00:42:26   rule, which you can do with contacts, but you cannot do because there's a, what's it

00:42:31   called, bypass, emergency bypass, I think. But you cannot do with individual apps.

00:42:36   But that's only on phone calls, though.

00:42:38   Or messages, maybe. I don't know.

00:42:41   No, it's just phone calls.

00:42:43   It's only phone calls.

00:42:45   Apps would be nice. Also, we've talked about this before,

00:42:48   much more Apple Watch settings, in the sense that

00:42:52   I want to be able to say really fine-grained stuff like,

00:42:58   "In Slack, unless it's this specific room, or this specific channel,

00:43:03   do not send me notifications.

00:43:05   If it's from this person in this channel, go to the Apple Watch."

00:43:09   So the ability to really control my notifications and my Do Not Disturb settings, that would be amazing.

00:43:15   And also I wonder if maybe Apple should kind of borrow from Android and the whole idea of notification channels,

00:43:22   of separating different types of notifications, even if they are from the same app.

00:43:28   And you could do things like, you should mute notifications from Tweetbot unless it's a direct message type.

00:43:36   And in that case, send them to me.

00:43:39   So there's a lot of stuff that Apple could do with notifications and do not disturb.

00:43:43   And I think Dieter Bohn at The Verge had a really good video,

00:43:47   an article a few weeks ago, that people should check out,

00:43:50   because it basically shows like how far ahead and joy it is in terms of notifications

00:43:56   and management notifications compared to iOS.

00:43:59   I hope that they do something. I really want to see something.

00:44:03   and but there is a company that's doing a lot of this stuff already and that is

00:44:07   Google and Google I/O was yesterday and we should talk about some themes from

00:44:11   Google I/O but before we do let me thank Casper for their support of this show

00:44:15   they're the company focused on sleep dedicated to making you exceptionally

00:44:19   comfortable one night at a time. Casper understand that you spend a lot of time

00:44:23   in your life sleeping you know this varies from person to person but on

00:44:27   average you spend about a third of your life on your mattress so if you spend a

00:44:32   third of your life on something. Don't you want it to be the best it could possibly be?

00:44:36   Well it can be if you get a Casper mattress because they're perfectly designed for humans

00:44:40   with engineering that will help soothe and support your natural geometry, giving you

00:44:44   all the right support in all the right places. Casper mattresses combine multiple supportive

00:44:49   memory foams for a quality mattress with just the right sink and bounce and that is what

00:44:53   makes them so comfortable. They're designed and developed in the US and their breathable

00:44:58   design helps to regulate your body temperature throughout the night. With over 20,000 reviews

00:45:03   and an average rating of 4.8 stars, Casper is becoming very quickly the Internet's favourite

00:45:08   mattress. And I bet one of these things is because you can buy a Casper mattress risk

00:45:13   free because you get a 100 night sleep on it trial. They'll deliver a mattress directly

00:45:17   to your door and if for any reason you don't love it, Casper has a hassle free return policy.

00:45:23   Stephen Hackett, I know that you have the joy of spending every night on a Casper mattress.

00:45:27   Actually, I know that you have just been away

00:45:28   from your Casper mattress for a week or two.

00:45:32   Can you tell me what it was like to return?

00:45:33   Was it a joyous occasion?

00:45:35   - It was a joyous occasion.

00:45:37   It's starting to get hot here in Memphis.

00:45:40   You know, we're kinda having our first hot,

00:45:42   early summer days, and a lot of mattresses,

00:45:46   foam mattresses you sink into and you get hot and sweaty,

00:45:48   but not true with Casper.

00:45:50   It's really great no matter the weather.

00:45:52   See, I came back, it was hot in Memphis,

00:45:54   but I'm not hot in the bed.

00:45:57   It's really good.

00:45:58   - Okay.

00:46:00   - And now Casper has their own podcast.

00:46:03   Are you ready for this?

00:46:04   This is gonna take me a moment to get this out.

00:46:06   Okay, it's called,

00:46:08   it's Casper the Podcast sponsored by Casper.

00:46:10   It's an entire podcast about Casper sponsored by Casper.

00:46:13   It's all very meta.

00:46:14   You can check it out on SoundCloud,

00:46:15   Apple Podcasts and Stitcher.

00:46:17   It's the Casper the Podcast sponsored by Casper.

00:46:20   You could get $50 towards select mattresses

00:46:22   going to casper.com/connected and using connected at checkout terms and conditions apply as

00:46:27   casper.com/connected and the offer code connected.

00:46:30   Our thanks to Casper for their support of this show and Real AFM.

00:46:34   Man, you nearly broke me.

00:46:35   Like that was nearly it for me.

00:46:38   Google I/O.

00:46:39   We've got a few key things to talk about with Google I/O.

00:46:43   We're not going to go through everything because Google I/O, I have no idea how they pack,

00:46:48   what they pack into the time that they get it done in.

00:46:52   is luckily it has gotten shorter and a little bit more focused in recent years

00:46:56   but they really do go through a lot of stuff like including like the Waymo

00:47:01   things like yes that was interesting but like did that did you need to do that

00:47:05   right then? Yeah not in the keynote. Especially because there's not really a

00:47:13   thing Google do this as well I can and I'm gonna complain about this at points

00:47:17   during our conversation today in more detail, but they just announced stuff and they're

00:47:22   just like, "Ah, one day!" It's like, "Why are you showing me?" It's so weird. Anyway,

00:47:29   Assistant. There are six new voices for Google Assistant. They spoke about this technology

00:47:34   last year that they developed to help them create new voices quicker. They've put that

00:47:38   to test now with six new voices that are rolling out, including John Legend, which is kind

00:47:44   of hilarious. John Legend and Christy Tagan have been doing really great Google ads, Pixel

00:47:50   ads recently. John Legend is maybe the first time I've ever seen a celebrity actually commit

00:47:57   to a brand deal with a phone creator in that he actually tweets from Android and like there

00:48:04   was a whole thing with him and Kanye recently, right, where they would like texting each

00:48:10   other and the messages were green. Like John Legend actually is using a Google Pixel. And

00:48:16   like basically every celebrity that does a deal with a smartphone company who just continues

00:48:22   to use an iPhone no matter what. But anyway, so catching up to Amazon is a big thing for

00:48:31   Google with the Assistant as well. So a few things that they're doing. Getting a conversation

00:48:36   modes you can do multiple requests without needing to say the Google trigger phrase each

00:48:42   time and they went into some detail about this about how they're doing it which is really

00:48:46   interesting about understanding what and means.

00:48:50   Multiple actions per request which is awesome so you can say like dim the lights and turn

00:48:56   on the TV.

00:48:58   That is really cool and I'm very jealous of that and they also got a pretty please mode

00:49:02   for families, which requires you to say "please" when asking requests, and the Google Home

00:49:06   gives thanks for politeness. So these are all things. I don't know if Amazon's doing

00:49:10   the multiple requests thing, but they are doing the other two at least. So pretty cool

00:49:16   if you use the Google Home products.

00:49:18   I think it really shows how far ahead Amazon is in this stuff. And Google's not playing

00:49:25   catch-up with Siri on anything. Very clearly we know the ranking now between these services.

00:49:32   And part of this might be that Amazon don't have a version of this, so they just put this

00:49:38   stuff out when it's ready.

00:49:41   There isn't the Amazon developer conference where they do a big keynote.

00:49:46   So they just put stuff out whenever they want.

00:49:50   And they're not like Apple that has to wait for a full firmware release, basically, to

00:49:57   update something.

00:49:58   Like they can just do these things.

00:50:00   They just do it whenever they want.

00:50:01   Although terrible, just terrible rolling things out internationally.

00:50:05   I still don't have any of the features we've been talking about recently.

00:50:08   Really?

00:50:09   Yeah.

00:50:10   Not even one of them?

00:50:11   I don't have like the follow-up mode.

00:50:13   Just nothing.

00:50:14   Oh wow.

00:50:15   It's very frustrating.

00:50:16   I mean you speak the same language.

00:50:17   It's still English.

00:50:19   You know.

00:50:21   Turns out.

00:50:23   Smart displays.

00:50:24   We heard about these a while back.

00:50:27   I think at CES they were showing them off.

00:50:30   These are going on sale in July.

00:50:32   One of the big things that they showed us today was YouTube integration, unlike the

00:50:35   Echo Show.

00:50:37   The Google Assistant smart displays will be able to watch YouTube videos and YouTube TV.

00:50:41   They do video calling via Duo.

00:50:44   Smart home apps can integrate with it.

00:50:46   They show the Nest Cam, so you can see your Nest Cam.

00:50:48   And they're working with other companies and developers.

00:50:50   They showed something cool that I liked, which was cooking instructions with Tasty that looked

00:50:54   really cool.

00:50:55   They were showing little videos and you could tap through.

00:50:58   Plus the hardware that they showed on stage, which is the LG one which is coming first,

00:51:02   is significantly better looking than the Amazon show.

00:51:04   It's not hard.

00:51:06   Not hard, but a lot better.

00:51:08   So that smart display stuff I was watching now, I was like, "That looks cool."

00:51:11   I would put one of those in my kitchen because it had more of a compelling story to me than

00:51:15   the Echo Show did.

00:51:17   The YouTube integration sells it for me.

00:51:19   If I was in the market for one of these, that alone would be enough to go this way instead

00:51:23   of Amazon.

00:51:24   This is probably the most contentious thing that came out of the Google I/O keynote, which

00:51:30   is that Google Assistant will be able to call businesses for you to set up appointments.

00:51:37   It's being called Google Duplex, is the technology that is powering it because it's a mix of

00:51:43   different things from like Assistant and all of the machine learning, and it's like it's

00:51:48   way more than just the Assistant that's meaning for them to do this.

00:51:51   If you ask a Google Assistant to make a call for you to make a business, say to book a

00:51:56   haircut which is one of the examples that they showed and they had some actual phone

00:52:00   calls that they were playing, businesses do not know that it is a robot that is calling

00:52:05   them. They just take the calls if it's normal. The Assistant adds umms and ahs and mmhms and

00:52:12   like up talking, right? Like a human does which is stuff that the Assistant currently

00:52:17   doesn't do. The demos seem very impressive in the fact that they work, the ones that

00:52:22   they were showing, but this is one of those things where there's no time frame on when

00:52:26   this will be available. They just showed it for a reason. I don't understand why. Like

00:52:30   this isn't, they gave absolutely no time frame on this.

00:52:33   [phone ringing]

00:52:34   >> Hello, how can I help you? Hi, I'm calling to book a women's haircut for a client. I'm

00:52:41   I'm looking for something on May 3rd.

00:52:43   Sure.

00:52:44   Give me one second.

00:52:46   Mm-hmm.

00:52:47   [LAUGHTER]

00:52:50   Sure.

00:52:51   What time are you looking for around?

00:52:53   At 12 p.m.

00:52:55   We do not have a 12 p.m. available.

00:52:57   The closest we have to that is a 1.15.

00:53:01   Do you have anything between 10 a.m. and 12 p.m.?

00:53:05   Depending on what service she would like, what service is she looking for?

00:53:10   Just a woman's haircut for now.

00:53:12   Okay, we have a 10 o'clock.

00:53:15   10 a.m. is fine.

00:53:17   Okay, what's her birth name?

00:53:19   The first name is Lisa.

00:53:21   Okay, perfect.

00:53:23   So I will see Lisa at 10 o'clock on May 3rd.

00:53:26   Okay, great. Thanks. Great.

00:53:28   Have a great day. Bye.

00:53:30   So I want to know from you guys,

00:53:32   is this a good thing or a bad thing?

00:53:35   So, as soon as I watched the video,

00:53:38   because I didn't watch the keynote last week,

00:53:40   keynote live and I watched separate videos afterwards. I thought this is incredibly cool

00:53:45   and I showed the video to Sylvia and I thought, you know, this is amazing, it's a robot and

00:53:50   it sounds like a human. And technically I think it is super impressive, honestly, like

00:53:56   it's one of the most impressive things I've seen lately. But then I thought about it.

00:54:00   If they, if this actually works the way that they're shown and it works, right, then it

00:54:04   It is a technical achievement hitherto ever created, right?

00:54:10   It is an incredible technical achievement.

00:54:13   And then I thought about it, and I got this feeling of, I don't want to say creepiness,

00:54:19   but it just felt kind of weird, honestly.

00:54:23   And I understand why some people are welcoming this kind of feature for very specific examples.

00:54:30   So, you know, there's some people, for example, have problems talking on the phone to other

00:54:36   people because of social anxiety issues. And that is totally fair. I can see how having

00:54:43   this kind of feature could help those people. But I -- just watching some folks from Google

00:54:49   on stage demoing this and, you know, a bunch of developers clapping and being excited,

00:54:54   just felt kind of dystopian in the sense that it feels like a dream from some Silicon Valley

00:55:02   dudes who thought, you know, wouldn't it be cool if we can get the robots to make a reservation

00:55:07   for us at the restaurant? And they're like laughing in the background of a room as the

00:55:11   Google Assistant is making a reservation for a table. It just feels weird and maybe dishonest.

00:55:18   I don't know. But there's something about it that to me is both technically amazing

00:55:24   and jaw-dropping, honestly. And also, unless you need it, because you have very specific

00:55:30   problems in talking directly to another person on the phone, can't you just make a phone call?

00:55:35   You know? Like, yes, it is boring. Yes, it is, you know, I don't have fun making a reservation

00:55:43   at the restaurant. I don't know, it just feels kind of weird to me. Like, look at your privileged life.

00:55:49   Yes, yes. You are so important and busy. You're letting your sister... You would never even dare

00:55:56   speak to a receptionist. I mean, come on, honestly. I don't know. I'm pleased that you,

00:56:01   Stephen, you say what you want to say too. It's weird. Like, I mean, we played a clip

00:56:08   for you a second ago. It sounds like a person. And we talked about it on Clockwise today. And

00:56:13   The thing that sticks in my mind is what happens when the assistant runs out of data that it knows

00:56:21   about you, right? So it knows about your calendar, it knows what kind of haircut you want. But say

00:56:25   that, you know, you're making a point where they ask a question that the assistant just doesn't

00:56:28   know the answer to because it's not in your phone, or it's, you know, something, you know,

00:56:34   that it doesn't have access to for some reason. Like, then what happens? Like, does it say, Oh,

00:56:38   "Oh, by the way, I'm a robot and bye!"

00:56:41   You know, it runs away.

00:56:42   Or do you get an option to be added to the call?

00:56:47   I don't know.

00:56:49   And so that's something that I would never use this

00:56:52   because of that, that I just want to,

00:56:54   I just want to know for sure that it knows what's going on

00:56:59   and is getting it right.

00:57:00   - I really, really don't like this.

00:57:03   It just makes me very uncomfortable

00:57:06   and in some places mad.

00:57:07   this is where I thought I was going to be Mr. Cynicism today, but I feel like you two

00:57:12   are maybe on the train with me. Because this feels like disingenuous, like you're tricking

00:57:18   someone. And they are going out of their way to trick someone by adding their natural speech

00:57:23   stuff in, right? Like, I don't understand why it cannot present itself as a robot. Like,

00:57:30   why can't that be the way that this works?

00:57:32   Let me put it this way. Imagine that you have kids and they go to school and there's the

00:57:39   teacher parents meeting that they do, you know, schools do. And someone, let's say Google

00:57:45   invented this amazing technology that you can buy a replica of yourself that is actually

00:57:49   a robot and can go around town and do things for you. And nobody knows it's a robot. It

00:57:53   looks like you and it behaves like you and it acts like you, but it's actually a robot.

00:57:56   And you send the robot to the teacher's parents' meeting.

00:58:00   And the teacher has no idea.

00:58:03   He thinks they're talking to you.

00:58:07   And suddenly, the teacher asks a question

00:58:10   that the robot doesn't know the answer to,

00:58:13   because it's a personal question.

00:58:14   And the robot goes, by the way, I'm a robot.

00:58:17   I'm not really the kid's parent.

00:58:21   And then runs out the door.

00:58:22   I mean, wouldn't that be weird?

00:58:24   Just because it's happening on the phone

00:58:25   there's that separation, you know, that distance doesn't make it less weird to me that it's

00:58:31   a robot pretending to be you because it's making a reservation for you after all. And

00:58:36   it's making an appointment for you. It's, it's, I mean, it's, it's so creepy, honestly.

00:58:43   Like this, this, this to me, this is fixed by being upfront. Like if you ask it to make

00:58:49   the phone call for you and the phone call is initiated with also, I believe companies

00:58:54   that should opt into it, I don't see this isn't so much of a problem to me at that point,

00:58:59   right? Like, businesses can say, yeah, we're fine to take the like, we don't want to have an online

00:59:04   ordering system. But if people want to use Google Assistant to call us, then we can take the

00:59:08   request. And then it would be a way more efficient way of doing it. But the reason that they're not

00:59:14   doing it that way is because they want it to get to every single company on the planet. And that is

00:59:20   what I don't like about it. It makes me feel uncomfortable that they have, they're going out

00:59:24   of their way to trick people so they can get to everyone and I don't, I really don't like

00:59:29   it. I, I know why people thought it was cool, but as soon as the first demo started, I,

00:59:39   I got a really bad feeling like I didn't, I really didn't like it because I don't like

00:59:45   where this could go. Yeah. Personally, I think that this is, this is not, this is not a all

00:59:52   Google, that's anyone could do this and I would feel like this.

00:59:56   I don't feel that this is inherently bad because it's Google.

00:59:59   I just don't like this. Um, yeah. And, and yeah,

01:00:04   I actually feel like this doesn't tie in with some other themes that

01:00:09   Google are trying to promote in this conference,

01:00:11   but I'll get to that in a little bit. Cause I want to just,

01:00:13   we'll just move on from this cause we could just keep having this conversation

01:00:16   for another half an hour. Um, I saw a tweet from MKBHD today.

01:00:20   He said, "After Google's improvement to their Assistant,

01:00:22   Siri has gone from one of the pioneers of voice assistants

01:00:24   to seeming like an absolute joke."

01:00:26   So if we just forget about that whole conversation

01:00:29   we just had about this duplex thing,

01:00:31   and just go back to focusing on Assistant again,

01:00:34   like there are a bunch of features

01:00:35   and stuff that we didn't get into,

01:00:37   but like there was a whole new visual UI,

01:00:40   which pulls in information for you into Google Assistant,

01:00:43   which is kind of like what Google Now was,

01:00:45   but more intelligent.

01:00:47   And so there's a lot of stuff going on.

01:00:50   And unlike the anecdotal evidence that people talk about why they think Siri is bad, right?

01:00:56   Like, oh, Siri answers this question poorly or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?

01:01:00   This is something that is that cannot be denied, right?

01:01:04   It's like the features that Google are adding to Assistant that Apple is just not adding to any of their Siri products.

01:01:13   Like Google picked up Apple's ball and they ran around the globe with it, right?

01:01:18   Like they just have absolutely lapped them.

01:01:21   Like Assistant is advancing at a breakneck pace.

01:01:26   And I feel like right now, Google Assistant and Siri,

01:01:30   they are so different in features that they may as well be considered

01:01:35   completely different categories of thing.

01:01:37   Like they're not the same anymore.

01:01:40   Like what Siri does is just one feature of what Google Assistant can do,

01:01:45   because it's so much more at this point.

01:01:47   One feels like a platform or a service that runs everywhere and the other is more like

01:01:53   a utility that is on your phone and is on your tablet and is on your watch.

01:01:58   And it's getting better, but I honestly, I think it's pretty clear by now that Apple

01:02:02   didn't foresee just how much the digital assistant would become a platform, would become the

01:02:09   product instead of an addition to the product.

01:02:12   how Google and Amazon saw this feature of there's this assistant type layer that is

01:02:18   everywhere and how Apple was still stuck in their ways of we make the phone, we make the

01:02:25   iPad, we make the Mac, and then we bring Siri, you know, multiple instances of Siri to each

01:02:31   individual device. But it's not really a platform. It's not really this kind of service that

01:02:35   incorporates other services and it talks to other, you know, third party apps and websites

01:02:41   And now they're playing catch up here.

01:02:43   And I don't know if they ever can catch up with Google and Amazon because the more that

01:02:51   Apple keeps fixing Siri and the more Google and Amazon keeps, they keep going beyond what

01:02:58   we can imagine.

01:02:59   So there's a lot of pressure on Apple for WWDC at this point.

01:03:05   It seems like they didn't, to your point, they didn't expect it to take off.

01:03:10   And then once it did, because this has been going on for a while now, they just have struggled

01:03:15   to put the car back in gear, right?

01:03:17   They've struggled to make any real momentum.

01:03:21   If you see where Siri is now, and Siri was three or four years ago, it's still a very

01:03:25   straight line, seemingly unaffected by the outside world.

01:03:29   They're still just adding things to SiriKit to app categories at a time.

01:03:34   It's like, no, no, you have fundamental issues and fundamental differences with your competition,

01:03:39   and they have been able to address that yet.

01:03:42   So maybe it'll be this year.

01:03:44   I don't think there'll be.

01:03:45   I think we'll be here in a month and talking about how

01:03:48   it's weird that Syria didn't get much stage time.

01:03:50   Like what's going on there?

01:03:52   You know, they've got that new hire now,

01:03:53   the guy from Google.

01:03:55   And I know they've been making real efforts in this area,

01:04:00   but at some point you just wonder

01:04:02   like could they ever catch up?

01:04:04   Is it going to be possible to ever be competitive again?

01:04:08   again. I really struggle to see it because one of the big areas that these

01:04:16   assistants can continue to get better is in artificial intelligence and I

01:04:20   struggle to see anybody being able to catch up with the insane lead that

01:04:24   Google has and like the lead that they have is not even in just what we can see

01:04:29   like the lead that they have is the amount of data that they have available

01:04:33   to them. Yeah. That just nobody else has like it's only Google that has it and

01:04:37   And I would be super surprised to see anybody launch something which is competitive with Google Assistant

01:04:43   because where are you going to get all that data from?

01:04:46   Like, there's only so many horses and mountains you can buy, right?

01:04:50   And that's not enough.

01:04:52   And I would be really intrigued to see what Apple's response to this will be

01:05:00   because honestly, the response might be, "We're just not going to do it."

01:05:03   Because we can't.

01:05:05   So we'll see.

01:05:08   Alright, there's more to this.

01:05:09   There's still some more interesting stuff to come.

01:05:11   But before, let me thank our final sponsor this week, and that is the Layers Conference.

01:05:16   Layers is a design-focused, developer-friendly conference that's an amazing experience for

01:05:20   anyone working in the technology industry.

01:05:22   And it takes place June 4th to 6th, right around the corner from WWDC.

01:05:27   So it's WWDC Week from June 4th to June 6th in San Jose.

01:05:32   Leis has an incredible lineup featuring a diverse array of speakers with incredible

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01:05:42   Wes Anderson.

01:05:43   Jessica is incredible, I'm a big fan of hers.

01:05:46   Angela Guzman, who's one of the original Apple emoji designers.

01:05:50   And Ryan McLeod, 2017 recipient of an Apple Design Award for his amazing puzzle game Blackbox,

01:05:56   which is that game in which you have to do a bunch of really weird stuff to complete

01:06:00   it including opening the game on a plane to unlock one of the achievements.

01:06:06   Jesse Chan and Elaine Power are Leia's organisers, they're both ex-Apple employees and this definitely

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01:06:20   If you're going to be in San Jose for WWC week you should consider adding Leia's to

01:06:24   your list of activities. I'm going to be swinging by, there's a couple of talks that

01:06:28   I think kind of unmissable at this point. You can find out more right now at layers.is.

01:06:33   That's L-A-Y-E-R-S dot I-S. And if you want to buy a ticket, use the code relay and you'll

01:06:40   get $50 off. Thanks to Layers for their support of this show. If you're going to be in San

01:06:44   Jose or on WWDC, go check it out. You're going to have a great time.

01:06:49   Digital well-being. This is one of the big things that Google were talking about throughout

01:06:53   the entire conference and it touches on a couple of areas. They spoke about a thing

01:06:59   called JOMO, which is the joy of missing out, which is the opposite of FOMO, the fear of

01:07:03   missing out. They broke down this digital wellbeing into four things. One, understand

01:07:09   your habits. Two, focus on what matters. Three, switch off and wind down. And four, find balance

01:07:15   for your family. And they're integrating these four kind of pillars into a bunch of different

01:07:20   It seems like most of what they're talking about right now is YouTube and Android as

01:07:25   the two places that they're focusing most on.

01:07:27   So for example, YouTube is getting the helpful/patronizing "do you want to keep watching" prompt that

01:07:37   Netflix has.

01:07:38   You know, like where it's shaming you into having sat for six hours watching videos or

01:07:44   however long they're going to set it to.

01:07:47   And then in Android, P, one of the features that it's getting to focus on this was actually

01:07:51   quite a few.

01:07:52   So one of the big things is focused around something they call dashboard.

01:07:56   The dashboard shows you a breakdown of time spent in your applications of graphs and charts,

01:08:01   and developers can even show you the time spent on other platforms.

01:08:05   So for example, in YouTube, it would show you how much time you spend in YouTube, no

01:08:10   matter where you're watching it.

01:08:11   And also developers can, they can offer up different tasks to the system so you can know

01:08:18   that like, not only have you been spending time in, say for example they haven't said

01:08:22   this, Chrome, you can say oh you've spent it on these websites.

01:08:26   Obviously I think this is very interesting because that's time tracking my friend.

01:08:31   I like the sound of that.

01:08:32   I would love it if my iPad could do that stuff for me, especially if that data was accessible

01:08:37   by other applications.

01:08:40   You can set time limits in apps, like of how much time in a day you want to spend on an

01:08:44   app, and if you go over it, the icon will be grayed out.

01:08:48   Nice.

01:08:49   Okay.

01:08:50   They have enhancements to Do Not Disturb that if you turn your phone over whilst it's set

01:08:54   down on a table, it will turn on Do Not Disturb automatically.

01:08:58   And then when you're in Do Not Disturb, it restricts what's shown on your screen.

01:09:01   I believe from what I've seen, I couldn't confirm this, no notification UI is shown

01:09:07   on the screen when you're in Do Not Disturb, which is very different to how it's been previously.

01:09:12   And they're also introducing a wind down mode. So you set your chosen bedtime and after this

01:09:17   time has elapsed, Do Not Disturb mode is enabled automatically and the screen, your screen

01:09:22   is set to grayscale, which is apparently this thing, which this has been like a big buzzy

01:09:26   thing recently because of, I think it's just an article that was written in the New York

01:09:30   Times that like setting your phone to grayscale makes you want to use it less. I've never

01:09:34   done it. I have no idea if it works, but people say that it does. What do you guys think of

01:09:39   these Android editions? As someone who's been, you know, for basically the past six months,

01:09:46   trying to intentionally miss out on more things to do other things in life. I'm all about

01:09:53   this stuff, man. Honestly, like, I think it's amazing that companies are now realizing that

01:10:00   there should be better tools to help people detach themselves a little bit more from social

01:10:08   feeds and the news or whatever. I know that as humans we should probably have a better

01:10:16   sense of self-control, but sometimes, and I've noticed this myself and I think I'm doing

01:10:21   a little better now, especially initially, you need a little push. You need a little

01:10:26   way that technology can help you detach and say,

01:10:30   maybe it's not healthy that I'm spending like four hours

01:10:33   on Twitter every single day.

01:10:34   And every time I opened my timeline, I got depressed.

01:10:37   I think it's great that,

01:10:41   and there's counter arguments to this,

01:10:42   and I know that Myke wants to play the cynical card here,

01:10:47   but I think it's good that we as users, as people,

01:10:52   we now have these tools.

01:10:53   And I hope that Apple is working on a similar initiative.

01:10:59   I don't know why we have suddenly

01:11:01   woke up to the fact that these devices can be--

01:11:05   not the devices, but maybe our habits can be bad for us.

01:11:10   Could be maybe the direction that the world has taken.

01:11:14   I don't know.

01:11:15   But still, I welcome these features,

01:11:18   because I've tried to do this myself, not with these tools,

01:11:21   but the same principles apply.

01:11:24   And I'm a fan of having a better way to do this,

01:11:27   especially if you're just getting started

01:11:28   and you're like, I want to start using my phone less.

01:11:31   What can I do?

01:11:32   And if you get a little help, a little dashboard,

01:11:35   a few numbers, a few stats that can help you understand

01:11:40   what you're doing wrong, I think that's a good change.

01:11:43   - Yeah, I totally agree.

01:11:45   I think all of us want that in our lives,

01:11:48   but it's hard to get the start,

01:11:50   but I think it's also hard without numbers

01:11:52   to quantify it, so I think that's one reason

01:11:55   the Apple Watch remains sticky for so many people.

01:11:58   With the fitness stuff, I can see that I've worked out

01:12:01   these many days, or that for 18 days I met my stand goal,

01:12:05   but then I missed it.

01:12:06   You run the risk that the numbers become the game,

01:12:11   and not the device, I guess.

01:12:12   There's two sides there, but I think for people

01:12:16   who want to be less engaged in their phone, these sort of tools are useful.

01:12:25   And I guess we'll see how it plays out.

01:12:28   I sure would like to see Apple do more of this on the iPhone in particular, but I guess

01:12:33   we'll see.

01:12:35   That was something else that Mark Gurman said, that all of this stuff is also going to be

01:12:39   a focus of WWDC this year, which I think is 100% spot on.

01:12:45   I thought that they were going to focus on some of this stuff in the education event,

01:12:50   but they didn't really.

01:12:52   I expect that this will be a focus just because Apple's been kind of under fire for this recently

01:12:56   about not thinking about humans and families and all that kind of stuff.

01:13:01   But my cynicism for this is not the idea.

01:13:07   The idea is great.

01:13:08   The problem is the balance.

01:13:10   So Google is spending a bunch of time talking about how we need to consider our digital

01:13:15   wellbeing, how we're using our devices properly, how all of this stuff can affect us.

01:13:22   But at the same time, they're wanting to remove human interactions with telephone calls.

01:13:31   Is that better for us as humans to not interact with as many people in our daily lives?

01:13:36   Or they added some stuff for maps, right?

01:13:39   Like some AR features for maps.

01:13:41   Now whilst that of course is really cool, doesn't looking at your phone whilst walking

01:13:46   around encouraging you to do that, isn't that bad, right?

01:13:49   Like you're spending even more time looking at the phone screen and not the world around

01:13:53   you.

01:13:54   And again, there's utility in this stuff, but there's utility in everything.

01:13:58   I find it to be a really awkward line to show off and talk about new and amazing features

01:14:05   whilst also trying to tell people you want them to use their phones less?

01:14:09   Like I find the real battle with this, like you want us to use our phones for more things

01:14:14   but also for less time?

01:14:16   Like I think that this is a battle that all companies are going to play because what they

01:14:20   really want to do, what they really want to do is have you use their devices for more

01:14:24   things.

01:14:25   That's what they want because that's how the businesses work.

01:14:28   And you can have conflicting feelings but at the end of the day they have to keep selling

01:14:33   the phone to you. Because if they wanted you to use your phone less, they could just take

01:14:37   features away and add nothing new. If that was their 100% only goal, to encourage you

01:14:44   to explore the world and blah blah blah blah blah. For example, Google was showing off

01:14:50   Google Lens and they're saying "Oh, we're going to add all the Google Lens stuff directly

01:14:54   into the camera." So now you can't even take a picture anymore without wanting to tell

01:14:58   you something about what you're seeing. Like I find it to be a problem that all of these

01:15:04   companies will face and if Apple show us this stuff in the same way I'm going to have the

01:15:08   same concerns. Like I just cannot genuinely believe that this is what you want is for

01:15:16   us to use our devices less because you've spent the last 10 years trying to get us to

01:15:21   use these devices more and if this is something that you really cared about I think that we

01:15:26   we would see less new whizbang features.

01:15:28   I just, I really struggle with this.

01:15:28   - I don't know, maybe the optimistic view is that,

01:15:32   not that they want you to use devices more,

01:15:35   but that when you use them,

01:15:36   you have the best experience that you could possibly have.

01:15:39   So the optimistic view and the more positive view on this

01:15:43   is that now these companies realize that

01:15:46   we should have a better balance

01:15:49   so that when we use our phones,

01:15:51   we have these incredible features.

01:15:53   And they continue to become more and better on an annual basis.

01:16:00   But we should also be able, at the same time,

01:16:03   to put them down more frequently and to be present and spend

01:16:07   time with other people and look around and stuff.

01:16:10   But yes, I do understand your position, especially

01:16:12   in the sense of the same companies that

01:16:16   want you to stop using your phone are also

01:16:18   selling you headphones and tablets and computers

01:16:23   and speakers so that when you don't use the phone, you can use all these other

01:16:27   amazing devices.

01:16:28   Use all their other stuff.

01:16:29   Don't use your phone. Use our watch instead.

01:16:32   Exactly.

01:16:33   Use our screen in the kitchen.

01:16:35   Like, look, I want all of this stuff.

01:16:37   I want more features and I want them to be considerate.

01:16:40   My problem is just I really struggle to find it genuine

01:16:45   when they're on stage talking about all of these things.

01:16:48   Yeah.

01:16:48   Because there is just no way in which it's not contradictory in my mind.

01:16:52   like and I also it's like you've always got to wonder like, you know, what is the business

01:16:58   of these companies and like the business of these companies is to keep you using their

01:17:03   devices right like there's a lot of stuff that could be done right like just around

01:17:11   restricting the way notifications are used. Google and Apple could do this. They could

01:17:15   cut off notifications for games.

01:17:20   - They could do that. - My view on this is that

01:17:22   as long as the feature is built and it exists,

01:17:26   then it's good for us.

01:17:28   It's like the Apple Watch, right?

01:17:29   They want you to buy the Apple Watch,

01:17:31   they want you to use apps or they want you,

01:17:34   but there's the workout stuff and the health stuff exists

01:17:37   and that is good for us.

01:17:38   So let the companies build these features

01:17:40   for digital wellbeing and then it's up to us to use them.

01:17:44   And they can have whatever shady tactic they might have.

01:17:48   So you don't use your phone,

01:17:50   you buy the tablet or you buy the watch or whatever. But as long as the feature is built

01:17:54   and people can use it, then I think that's good news. So at that moment, you know, it's

01:18:00   up to us to take advantage of it. Whatever the strategy, whatever the message from the

01:18:06   corporation is, at least we have the feature. And then you can say, well, what if the feature

01:18:11   is lying to you and it gives you numbers that are not correct? Well, I guess at that point

01:18:15   were screwed. So I'm trying to be optimistic here.

01:18:22   I want to be optimistic like you. That's what I want. I want to feel that way.

01:18:31   You made an entire year all about optimism and now you're forgetting about it.

01:18:37   I will say my year of optimism was focused around Apple. So like I still have a couple

01:18:42   more weeks and like I'm being I'm being negative about Google, which I don't know,

01:18:46   maybe that is optimism for Apple, who knows.

01:18:48   But like I this this stuff is just like I want these features, but I want them sold to

01:18:55   me in a genuine way.

01:18:56   And like, I just can't I cannot reconcile everything Google was talking about with this

01:19:03   digital well-being stuff like these two things.

01:19:06   They just don't they just just weren't locked in the same in both places.

01:19:11   like I didn't see digital well-being throughout everything that they were doing, even though

01:19:16   that's what they're saying, that it's going to touch everything.

01:19:18   Maybe the assistant could call you and tell you, "Put the phone down, stupid."

01:19:22   Yeah, like, "Hey buddy, go outside. Go outside. I think it's nice today."

01:19:29   "What if you go outside?"

01:19:31   Of course, there were a lot of really interesting features to Android P,

01:19:37   more than we're going to get into today, but before we do wrap up today,

01:19:40   I wanted to mention the gesture based UI thing, kind of like the iPhone 10, was really, it's

01:19:46   really telling. Because my favorite part of the demo was it was being done on a regular

01:19:50   pixel which has a huge bezel. And it's like, it looks really weird there. Something that

01:19:56   I definitely want, so they're multitasking UI, they show the apps like cleanly side by

01:20:00   side, and you can do text selection in multitasking. That is amazing. Also the text selection,

01:20:07   Google Lens thing, you'll be able to like, put your camera up to a menu and select the

01:20:13   text from the menu.

01:20:14   That's amazing.

01:20:15   That was really cool.

01:20:16   I think that was really cool.

01:20:18   But again, like, oh look, here's another way for me to use my phone in a restaurant.

01:20:22   I thought I wasn't supposed to do that anymore.

01:20:24   Anyway, so yeah, there's some stuff coming and obviously all this gesture based UI stuff.

01:20:29   This is the difference between Google and Apple.

01:20:32   Like Google is showing you this now and it's clearly telling you what the Pixel 3 is about.

01:20:37   Like Apple did not show this at WWDC right?

01:20:42   Because they don't want you to know that obviously the phone is going to change, that the home

01:20:45   bomb is going to go away.

01:20:46   But Google do show this stuff so it gives you an idea of what the Pixel 3 is going to

01:20:50   look like.

01:20:51   Yeah I think so.

01:20:52   I think that does it.

01:20:53   I think we're done.

01:20:54   I think that does it.

01:20:56   We covered 17 different companies today.

01:21:00   Good job.

01:21:02   If you want to find links for all this stuff you can do so on the website relay.fm/connected/com

01:21:06   You can get in touch with us there.

01:21:10   There's an email link in the sidebar.

01:21:12   Or of course you can find us on Twitter.

01:21:14   Federico is vittici, v-i-t-i-c-c-i and he is the editor-in-chief of MacStories.net.

01:21:20   You can find Myke on Twitter as @imyke and you can find a lot of shows that Myke hosts

01:21:26   over on the Relay site, relay.fm/shows.

01:21:28   If you like Connected, you'll find something else that you'll love as well.

01:21:33   And you can find me on Twitter as ismh and I write 512 pixels dot net we like to thank our sponsors this week

01:21:39   Pingdom Casper and layers and until next time boys say goodbye

01:21:44   I'd even that you

01:21:47   Tallyho adios. I nearly said adios again. I had to take a moment to like us to be cheerio focus in it. Oh

01:21:53   Sheesh can I just say cheerio and then you just put it in no probably not