186: I Move My Arms Around


00:00:00   In the edit, I'm going to add a pause under this.

00:00:02   Or if you all want to applaud while I do this, that's fine.

00:00:04   Just do it off mic.

00:00:05   - Nope, don't want to do that.

00:00:06   (upbeat music)

00:00:13   (audience applauding)

00:00:14   - Thank you for coming.

00:00:15   We're very excited to have all of you in Chicago today.

00:00:19   We have literally two things to announce.

00:00:22   So sit back and enjoy the show.

00:00:24   (laughing)

00:00:26   - Yeah, Chicago man, it's the weather.

00:00:28   The weather, it's rainy. It's rainy today. That's too bad. And the pizza, yeah, yeah.

00:00:35   You know, everybody, everybody in Chicago, in Chicago in March, it's a tradition to eat

00:00:41   pizza every single day of the week. Everybody from Chicago knows that. So we've been eating

00:00:48   pizza. We are here in Chicago, right? In the center of the city, a very famous place, and

00:00:55   We are eating pizza, but that's what we're doing.

00:00:57   I'm recording a podcast.

00:00:59   - We're just so inspired by everything.

00:01:01   We're excited about everything,

00:01:03   as long as you have $299 to spend per student.

00:01:07   - This is gonna be fun.

00:01:09   Can we do some follow up before we get to that?

00:01:10   - We should, but first we should thank our sponsors

00:01:13   for this episode, Squarespace, Smile, and Audible,

00:01:16   and we should introduce ourselves.

00:01:17   I'm not Tim Cook.

00:01:17   I know I sort of sound like Tim Cook, but I'm not.

00:01:20   My name is Stephen Hackett,

00:01:21   and I'm joined by my European co-host.

00:01:25   I have on one side of me, Michael Hurley.

00:01:28   Myke, how are you?

00:01:29   - I'm very good.

00:01:30   It's a good side.

00:01:31   - And on the other side, I have Federico Vittucci.

00:01:33   - Yeah, stop touching me, man.

00:01:36   We're in Chicago and it's kinda awkward.

00:01:38   You don't need to put your hand on my shoulder

00:01:40   when you do the intro.

00:01:42   It's kinda weird.

00:01:43   Yeah, hi.

00:01:44   How are you?

00:01:46   Why would I ask you how are you if we're together?

00:01:48   There's no point. - I'm good, I'm good.

00:01:50   You already know.

00:01:51   - Yeah, I'm fine.

00:01:53   I just introduced a new iPad, I feel great.

00:01:56   So, WWDC lottery has happened.

00:01:58   - Yes.

00:01:59   - Federico, did you get in?

00:02:00   - I did, and that completes the trilogy,

00:02:02   which I decided now it was going to be a trilogy.

00:02:05   Since the beginning, I retroactively decided

00:02:09   that my tickets are a trilogy.

00:02:11   So, the trilogy is complete, and now,

00:02:14   I suppose there must be some kind of Star Wars joke here,

00:02:18   But having only seen one Star Wars movie,

00:02:24   so I don't think I can make that joke.

00:02:28   But yes, I got in.

00:02:29   I'm very excited.

00:02:30   I want to go--

00:02:31   I'm happy to be going to San Jose again.

00:02:36   I had a great time last year.

00:02:37   And I want to meet all the developers.

00:02:39   I want to try all the new APIs.

00:02:40   I want to talk to people.

00:02:42   So I'm really excited.

00:02:44   Myke and I did not get in, but we did not enter.

00:02:46   So it's not a huge loss, I guess.

00:02:48   If you purchased Space Gray Magic Keyboard

00:02:53   or Magic Trackpad when the iMac Pro came out,

00:02:55   remember these were on eBay for like hundreds

00:02:57   and hundreds and hundreds of dollars?

00:02:59   If you had just waited, you can now get them

00:03:02   for $149 a piece directly from Apple.

00:03:07   That is $20 more than the silver boring models.

00:03:12   You pay 20 bucks for that Space Gray.

00:03:14   But they're available.

00:03:15   Does this interest you, Myke?

00:03:16   Are you interested in getting a space gray Magic Trackpad or Magic Mouse or keyboard?

00:03:23   I thought about it until I saw the prices and like I don't I don't particularly care

00:03:29   that it's $149 but I do when I'm just thinking about buying it for the fun of it right like

00:03:37   if I'm if I need any Magic Trackpad then I may pay the extra $20 to get the space gray

00:03:42   one because it looks cool, but I don't need to buy one so I'm not gonna buy one.

00:03:48   Right?

00:03:49   You know what I mean?

00:03:50   Like, I just don't need it.

00:03:52   I don't need to pay $149 for a space grey Magic Trackpad, but it does look good.

00:03:57   It does look good.

00:03:58   I got mine out of the box because I use the tenkeyless version without the number pad.

00:04:04   So the number pad puts the mouse too far out of the side for me where it's uncomfortable.

00:04:08   And I got it out yesterday and I'm like, it looks really good, I just can't use it.

00:04:11   So it's in the box.

00:04:12   So I'm using my regular Magic Trackpad and my regular Magic Keyboard and a mouse.

00:04:18   So things are good here.

00:04:19   But they're available.

00:04:20   I know some people were excited about this.

00:04:22   The mouse is 99 bucks as opposed to 79 for the silver.

00:04:25   So again, you just have that $20 tax to get the darker color.

00:04:30   People had a lot of thoughts in my Twitter about the price bump for the darker.

00:04:40   Myke informed me yesterday, as I was busy trying, what did you text me Myke? Like congrats

00:04:46   on the MKBHD retweet? Yeah MKBHD retweeted your tweet about the

00:04:55   keyboard being available so then you were subjected to like 3 million people. So you

00:05:02   know I'm sure it was a bit of a dumpster fire in the old mentions yesterday.

00:05:06   I tried to go back and look at one point, it was like, you know, it's just too much.

00:05:11   And there's so many, so many bad people, honestly, like saying really ugly offensive things.

00:05:19   So yeah, that's unfortunate.

00:05:21   Because, you know, there will be people that kind of scale that kind of like, just follow

00:05:28   him to complain about literally everything that he'll say, right?

00:05:31   Like that's just kind of what they're waiting to do.

00:05:34   They're just waiting.

00:05:35   And then the problem is people don't care who they're responding to, they just press

00:05:39   the reply button and just send it.

00:05:42   So yeah, look at that, 549 retweets, 5.6 thousand favorites.

00:05:49   That's incredible.

00:05:50   So you just got bombarded.

00:05:54   But there's not just Space Gray, there's also color, there's also color poured all over

00:05:58   our devices.

00:05:59   There are pink and blue.

00:06:01   What is that thing called?

00:06:02   The leather case for the iPad Pro?

00:06:06   What is that called?

00:06:07   The leather sleeve for the iPad Pro.

00:06:10   The leather sleeve.

00:06:11   It's like a nice blue and pink color and there are new leather and silicone cases as well

00:06:16   as the Apple Watch bands that we spoke about.

00:06:18   Was it last week, I think?

00:06:20   Which I bought two of them, by the way.

00:06:23   Which the cases or the bands?

00:06:24   The bands.

00:06:25   They're coming tomorrow.

00:06:26   I just got a notification.

00:06:27   I got the the Nike, the black and white one. What's the name? Black and platinum band or something?

00:06:34   The spilt loop one?

00:06:36   No, I got the Nike Sport, the black and one, and the Nike Sport Loop, the black and red.

00:06:43   Red and crimson, I think it's called?

00:06:45   Which is my first sport loop, which I'm really, really curious to try.

00:06:52   I like the sport loops. I haven't got any of these ones yet because I want to...

00:06:57   I tend these days to like to just go to a store and look at the colors and just see how they look

00:07:02   because so many times like they never look exactly right you know like sometimes better or sometimes

00:07:09   worse on the store than they do kind of when you're looking at them but I'll expect I'll buy

00:07:13   one like I really really like the sport loops so you know I wouldn't mind another one and the color

00:07:19   options the red one looks kind of cool I want to see what that looks like the red and black one

00:07:22   that looks kind of cool I like it but yeah there's there's also they've matched some of those colors

00:07:27   and got some new colors.

00:07:29   There's an orange leather case, which I like the look of,

00:07:32   but I think I like the silicone ones too much.

00:07:35   - I didn't buy anything.

00:07:36   Sorry. - No, I didn't expect

00:07:37   that you would have, honestly.

00:07:39   - Bring it down, bring it down.

00:07:41   All right, before we move on, we do have a reminder

00:07:43   that we will be at WWBC doing a live show

00:07:48   the evening of Wednesday, June 6th.

00:07:51   - 6th. - And there are tickets

00:07:53   still available, they are going quickly.

00:07:56   So if you're listening to this, I would not wait.

00:07:58   Just five bucks, it goes to a good cause

00:08:01   to support AltConf that does really great work

00:08:04   in our community, so go check that out.

00:08:06   And if we're not enough for you,

00:08:08   there's also ATP on Monday night.

00:08:10   We're kind of doing a podcast festival together,

00:08:12   so you can see those guys on Monday,

00:08:14   and they come back and see us on Wednesday.

00:08:15   So that link is in the show notes,

00:08:17   and like I said, I would not wait.

00:08:19   They're going quick.

00:08:20   - All right, today's episode is brought to you by Squarespace.

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00:09:40   So the March event, the March education event,

00:09:44   it has come and gone.

00:09:46   Both me and Steven have recorded other shows

00:09:50   going into I think more detailed analysis.

00:09:52   So you can check out query episode 27 and upgrade episode 186 because both Serenity

00:09:59   and Jason were at the event.

00:10:02   So that's good to kind of get the opinions of people that were there and have got that

00:10:06   kind of information.

00:10:07   But we wanted to kind of take some time to look at some larger themes and larger questions

00:10:13   that have arisen because of the event.

00:10:17   Stephen joked at the beginning about having two things to announce because really, the

00:10:21   was a couple of announcements and then because we have everybody's eyes on this, let's talk

00:10:27   about some of the other things in education that we do. Some stuff that has been around

00:10:31   for literally years at this point, like the multi person, like what is it called where

00:10:37   multiple people can sign into an iPad?

00:10:39   Shared iPad?

00:10:40   Yeah, which has been around since 9.3. So like, you know, some of this stuff has been

00:10:45   around for some time but it was used as part to tell a larger story about about education

00:10:51   and there are a few different things I think we all kind of have our pet questions and our pet

00:10:56   thoughts about this. Why don't we start talking about the the iPad, the star of the show,

00:11:02   the thing that they announced the the new bottom of the line 9.7 inch iPad which has

00:11:08   upgrades in a bunch of different areas from the original iPad including an Apple Pencil support.

00:11:15   I think you know when I was initially seeing it I was like oh this is like a pro but it's not like a pro

00:11:19   It is it is way closer to the original iPad than the pro

00:11:23   Steven we spent a bunch of time last week talking about the mythical e-pad that you dreamed up the education

00:11:31   iPad is that this

00:11:33   No, I don't I don't think it is I think the idea behind behind that mythical like that whole thought experiment was what if Apple

00:11:42   changed direction from the consumer product and made something just for education and

00:11:46   As Federica is gonna talk about in a second. This is a device that still very much

00:11:50   Exists in two worlds consumer and education so it you know, it doesn't

00:11:56   Change anything with the form factor to make it more rugged

00:11:59   It doesn't include a pencil let alone a way to store the pencil does it come with some sort of integrated keyboard?

00:12:04   Options, it's no cheaper than it was before

00:12:07   So I think this is Apple continuing the course of we're gonna have one device that

00:12:13   we think satisfies the needs of schools and the needs of

00:12:17   Sort of like the broad consumer market who you know people who aren't interested in the iPad Pro

00:12:22   So I don't think that's a change in direction at all really. I don't think it's a it should be considered an iPad Pro

00:12:29   but at the same time I also think it

00:12:32   It allows Apple to move the iPad Pro line even further

00:12:37   because you could argue that the Apple Pencil is possibly the most interesting

00:12:42   feature from a consumer standpoint of the former iPad Pro line and being

00:12:48   exclusive to the iPad Pro prevented many users from enjoying the benefits of the

00:12:53   Apple Pencil and I think of all the features that this iPad does not

00:12:58   offer such as promotion for the higher display refresh rate and True Tone and

00:13:04   more RAM and the A10X variation of the A10 chip or even just niceties like the laminated display.

00:13:12   Exactly. Right, like which is just a nice thing to have. Of all these features, I think that the

00:13:19   Apple Pencil is the most interesting one for the general public, for folks who want to use an iPad

00:13:25   but don't want to work or be pro users with an iPad. And so while it is not an iPad Pro

00:13:35   for education or basically an iPad Pro, I think it's a good decision to expand what

00:13:44   the Pencil is, what the Pencil can do by bringing it further down the line and unlocking these

00:13:49   new education use cases and just letting more people, not even people, users in schools,

00:13:55   just the general public that goes to apple.com and wants to buy an iPad for $300 and now

00:14:01   you can get one that also supports the Apple Pencil. I think that's a good decision.

00:14:05   I'm in agreement with you. I think that a lot of people take notes with pen and paper in their jobs,

00:14:15   right, in their meetings and that kind of stuff. And I think that whether it would be a better

00:14:19   experience for people or not, I think it's something that people want, right? Like they

00:14:23   see an iPad with an Apple pencil and can imagine themselves just taking their notes on a device

00:14:29   and not having to carry around pen and paper anymore. Right. Like I can see that as a thing

00:14:33   that people would want, even if it would be good for them or not. You know what I mean? Right. Like

00:14:38   a lot of people I think would try that and would prefer to go back to pen and paper because

00:14:43   it's not perfect. Right. Like there are you have to get a good app for it. Or I think a lot of

00:14:47   people imagine that like, oh, all I need to do is just handwrite it and then I'll have text.

00:14:52   You know, like I think that there is a lot and you can get part of the way of a lot of those things,

00:14:57   but it's not like as good as it could be in the future. But I think that it is one of those things

00:15:01   where people see it and they're like, oh, I would like a digital notepad instead of instead of having

00:15:06   to carry around this notepad and losing my pen all the time. So I think that there is a I agree

00:15:11   with you Federico. I think it is more it is more interesting, I believe, to the general public than

00:15:16   of smart keyboard, even though honestly a smart keyboard is actually more useful, but

00:15:21   if you're trying to use the iPad more seriously, but you won't know that until you try it.

00:15:27   But as a marketing tool to sell iPads, the Apple Pencil is the perfect fit for that to

00:15:34   serve that purpose.

00:15:36   For someone like me, I don't use my pencil very much at all, but I bought one and even

00:15:42   Even watching this event, I watched the video this morning, I felt inspired.

00:15:47   Like, yeah, I should draw.

00:15:48   I should take notes on it.

00:15:50   You want to use it because it's fun.

00:15:52   And I think they did a really good job of tapping into that in the event.

00:15:56   And I don't know how many of these things are going to sell to schools, but I think

00:15:59   that schools that do decide to spend the $89 for a pencil, the education price, I think

00:16:06   it will make a difference.

00:16:07   I think that kids will be able to do things with it that are exciting and new.

00:16:12   So yeah, I think if you're going to bring one quote-unquote "pro" feature down to the

00:16:18   consumer iPad, this was the one to do.

00:16:21   So let's look at the next big question.

00:16:24   Was this iPad and everything shown on stage a proper response to Google?

00:16:28   I think it is widely considered that Apple have decided to refocus on education again

00:16:35   publicly and internally because of how much of the market share Google is grabbing with

00:16:41   Chromebooks and Chrome OS. Was this a proper response to that?

00:16:45   I feel like the Apple's argument boils down to maybe three factors. The App Store ecosystem,

00:16:57   Apple design and privacy. I feel like those were the three themes that they tried to push

00:17:03   forward as the value that you get by going iPad instead of, I think they said, other

00:17:09   web-based solutions or something like that. But they really insisted on the idea of you're

00:17:15   using real apps, you're using native apps, you're using full iPad experiences that take

00:17:22   advantage of the right now display, multi-touch and the pencil and all of that. And you can

00:17:26   go to the App Store and now we have this API that developers can use to integrate classroom

00:17:32   and schoolwork, whatever it's called, with ClassKit into third-party apps, which of course

00:17:38   is something that can be done because of the App Store and the way that iOS works.

00:17:44   My question would be, if this is what Apple thinks, that their advantage is the iPad design,

00:17:50   so hardware and software, and the App Store ecosystem, and the privacy approach that they

00:17:55   take, is this argument valuable enough for schools that are tight in terms of budget

00:18:01   or they just prefer a web-based solution because maybe it's easier to manage.

00:18:05   I want to understand whether these three advantages that Apple claims they have

00:18:12   are actual advantages from the perspective of institutions and educators.

00:18:17   I mean, there are advantages if you have the money, right?

00:18:21   Like, all of those things are really nice, but you have to have the money.

00:18:25   And I think that, of course, there are school and education institutions

00:18:30   that can afford this stuff, we know it exists. We have, you know, first hand knowledge or

00:18:34   second hand knowledge when you look at someone like Fraser Spears, right? Like he works for

00:18:38   a school that can afford to do this stuff, that can afford to have an iPad push student.

00:18:43   But there are many, many, many schools, I was talking about some upgrade, including

00:18:46   the one that I went to, that could not and would not be able to afford to do this. Now,

00:18:52   I went to a very big school, there was nearly 2000 pupils at my school. There is no way,

00:18:57   There's just absolutely no way that that school would have, one, been able to afford it, or

00:19:02   two, prioritized this over other things.

00:19:05   And I know that there are places that can do it, and Apple can serve those if they want

00:19:08   to, but they're not changing the entire world with this current suite of products, and I

00:19:12   think we all need to accept that.

00:19:15   Of course, I finished high school 11 years ago at this point, but I strongly doubt that

00:19:21   my high school would be able to ever afford this kind of solution.

00:19:26   And I mean, I went to a public school with, I guess, about a thousand students.

00:19:32   And sometimes, like, the budget was always tight.

00:19:37   And sometimes the desks or the chairs were broken and needed to be replaced.

00:19:43   And there were other issues besides, you know, getting the fancy computer or now getting

00:19:48   the fancy tablet with the stylus.

00:19:50   I think our, you know, the current situation in Italy, and of course it's different in

00:19:54   in other countries.

00:19:55   It's different in the UK and the United States.

00:19:57   But our budget for getting elementary schools

00:20:02   and high schools into premium priced pieces of technology,

00:20:08   I don't think it's there.

00:20:11   It's just not there.

00:20:12   I cannot imagine not even a one-to-one program, because that

00:20:16   is just unthinkable to ask a school to spend 350

00:20:21   euros per student to get an iPad and a pencil and maybe a keyboard so that

00:20:26   would be around 400 euros but not even 10 iPads per classroom. I think that

00:20:33   would be that would be difficult for my high school to to achieve and so I it

00:20:38   feels to me I even looking at the event itself so that the the setup so this

00:20:43   Lane Tech school which in theory is public but John Voorhees is from

00:20:49   Chicago, he knows the school very well. He told me it's a "public school", you need to

00:20:55   apply to this school. And he believes that parents of course make big donations to the

00:21:00   school and all of that. So it looks like a private school. It looks like a very high-end,

00:21:07   semi-public institution that has the funds to buy a lot of Mac computers and have fancy,

00:21:13   beautiful looking classrooms and all of that. My school, it needs the walls to be repainted

00:21:21   to give you some context. And I think it's the same situation is true in other parts

00:21:25   of Italy, in other parts of Europe, and in other parts of the entire world. So it's great

00:21:32   that some schools, some high end schools can afford the iPad, especially the private ones,

00:21:37   especially the public ones that use this mixed system of you still need to apply and a lot

00:21:43   of parents make donations. I think it's great. But I struggle to say, well, of course, Apple

00:21:49   is now changing the world of education. They are changing parts of education, part of it

00:21:55   somewhere, but it's not a, I think the blanket statement of saying Apple is changing education

00:22:00   is not true. What do you think on that, Steven?

00:22:05   - I totally agree.

00:22:06   I had access to technology in high school

00:22:10   solely because I was on the student newspaper.

00:22:13   Everyone else I went to school with didn't.

00:22:17   There was a Mac or two in every classroom.

00:22:19   The teacher had one, they did all their stuff on,

00:22:21   and there was maybe one for students to use.

00:22:24   My high school didn't really have a computer lab,

00:22:30   even really, it was always tied in with something else,

00:22:32   with typing or again, like the newspaper or the yearbook.

00:22:37   And granted, that was a long time ago,

00:22:39   but I think that a lot of schools are still there.

00:22:42   After, for a while, I worked as a consultant

00:22:45   in K through 12 on behalf of Apple.

00:22:47   We'd go into schools and do these deployments.

00:22:50   We would deploy a MacBook one to one,

00:22:54   or we would put a bunch of iMacs in libraries

00:22:56   and classrooms and stuff.

00:22:58   And that's been 10 years now,

00:22:59   but even then, the schools that we were going into

00:23:04   were more fluent, and it was pretty obvious.

00:23:07   And that gap still exists today,

00:23:11   that there are a lot of students that don't have access

00:23:13   to iPads in the classroom, but also don't have access

00:23:16   to Chromebooks or anything even less expensive,

00:23:18   'cause the bar is still too high, unfortunately,

00:23:21   for too many school districts and too many schools

00:23:24   and too many classrooms.

00:23:25   Apple didn't do anything to address that with this.

00:23:28   I was really hoping that they'd announce it all

00:23:30   and they said, "Hey, it's $329 for consumers

00:23:33   "and for schools if you buy 10 or something or more,

00:23:38   "it's $249 or less than where they were able to put it."

00:23:43   And I guess on the flip side of that,

00:23:45   the other side of the argument as well,

00:23:47   it's the same cost as it was,

00:23:48   but it's a much better product.

00:23:50   Well, it is a much better product

00:23:51   if you spend the other $89 for a pencil

00:23:53   and you get a keyboard.

00:23:55   It's still an expensive product.

00:23:57   I think what Apple did here, I think the big picture

00:24:00   of Apple versus Chromebooks, I think what Apple's doing

00:24:04   is saying the price is what it is,

00:24:08   and if you can't meet that, then we're sorry,

00:24:11   but you can't meet it.

00:24:13   But if you can, if the iPad is a viable option

00:24:15   for you financially, they want the iPad to set apart

00:24:20   from Chromebooks based on what a student can do with it.

00:24:24   And they mentioned Chromebooks, they mentioned

00:24:25   web-based apps, which is a shot at Chrome OS.

00:24:29   And I think they built the case,

00:24:31   I think they did a pretty successful job of it

00:24:33   with things like the Everyone Can Create curriculum.

00:24:37   If you want your students to be working in multimedia

00:24:40   with video and music and you want them to be

00:24:43   annotating things and dealing with custom textbooks,

00:24:47   the iPad is the only way to go.

00:24:49   That they are, instead of getting in the mud on pricing,

00:24:53   they're saying we are gonna be more expensive,

00:24:55   But for that, you get a device with really great battery life

00:24:59   that students are really comfortable using touch devices.

00:25:03   And they can use it to create all of this stuff.

00:25:05   And you can't do that with a Chromebook.

00:25:07   And you can't even really do it with a Mac.

00:25:09   I mean, there's stuff that--

00:25:10   like, Clip's got a ton of stage time.

00:25:12   And teachers actually seem really excited about Clip's.

00:25:14   It's really surprised me that it seems to have taken off,

00:25:18   at least in some classrooms.

00:25:19   But I can totally see why, because it's a fun, easy way

00:25:21   to do video.

00:25:22   Yeah, it's like, I never would have expected it.

00:25:24   but as soon as I see it, I'm like, yeah, okay,

00:25:26   I can see how that makes sense.

00:25:27   - Totally.

00:25:28   And so yeah, you can edit in GarageBand

00:25:31   and iMovie and stuff on a MacBook,

00:25:32   but an iPad makes it more fun and easier to deal with,

00:25:37   and you don't have to deal with file stuff,

00:25:38   right, 'cause it's all just in iCloud.

00:25:40   And so I think that's where they're going with this.

00:25:42   I think Apple wants to change the argument

00:25:44   from pricing first, which is hard,

00:25:46   because that is the truth of this market,

00:25:49   is that pricing is a huge factor.

00:25:51   But I think what they're saying is,

00:25:53   If you can't afford us, then this

00:25:55   is what you get for that additional cost.

00:25:57   And I don't know if that argument's

00:25:59   going to work or not, but I do think

00:26:01   that they closed the loop on that argument

00:26:03   really well in this keynote.

00:26:04   Yeah.

00:26:05   Yeah.

00:26:05   I think you're right.

00:26:06   So also Logitech got a lot of time again.

00:26:10   So if you cast your mind back to the original iPad Pro

00:26:14   introduction, it was announced that when that product came

00:26:17   about that Logitech had made a keyboard case, right?

00:26:20   That they were on stage.

00:26:21   Obviously Logitech had a relationship with Apple that they got to see this stuff first

00:26:27   and it's happened again because there are two products.

00:26:30   There is a new version of the rugged combo case which is funnily enough like it's like

00:26:36   basically Logitech built their own case of a smart connector on it for a keyboard which

00:26:41   is kind of hilarious that they did that considering this device doesn't have one.

00:26:45   But the real thing that is more interesting is Logitech Crayon, which is a cheaper and

00:26:52   differing in function version of the Apple Pencil.

00:26:57   Federico, what do you think of the Logitech Crayon and also kind of a wider level, the

00:27:05   way that Logitech and Apple seem to be working together on this stuff, basically to create

00:27:09   the stuff that Apple doesn't want to make it seems?

00:27:11   Yeah, that's exactly my point.

00:27:13   I think it's fascinating that Apple is sitting in control to Logitech to make these accessories

00:27:19   that arguably Apple used to make, you know, keyboard cases, different types of accessories

00:27:27   for the same device, but now it appears to be Logitech's job to come in and say, "Okay,

00:27:33   what it is that you guys are not doing, we'll take care of it." And I think it's a -- I'm

00:27:38   not sure if I like it because on one hand I'm all for third-party companies being able

00:27:43   to manufacture accessories to give me more choice, but on the other, I'm still waiting

00:27:49   for an Apple backlit keyboard for the iPad Pro that is not made by Logitech. So there's

00:27:55   pros and cons there. And the Crayon, I think it's super interesting to me. So essentially,

00:28:00   this uses the same technology inside the Pencil. So the same framework that works with the

00:28:07   digitizer in the app it's display to detect touches,

00:28:11   to make guesses for the predictive touch API,

00:28:17   to basically guess where the line is going to be drawn.

00:28:20   It uses the same system, the same framework,

00:28:22   and of course it works with all the apps that currently

00:28:26   support the Apple Pencil.

00:28:27   But they needed to make some concessions

00:28:30   to make this happen.

00:28:31   So it does not support pressure sensitivity.

00:28:35   It only supports tilt.

00:28:37   So you can draw at an angle and the thickness of the line will change.

00:28:43   And from a design perspective, and also it does not use Bluetooth, but it uses some kind

00:28:49   of single frequency pairing that does not force you to do the manual pairing with Bluetooth,

00:28:58   but it's also not like the pencil that you can plug into the lightning port and it's

00:29:03   connected.

00:29:04   press a button on the crayon and a green LED flashes and then you wait a couple of seconds

00:29:11   and it's paired. Although we don't have any details as to...

00:29:16   It doesn't make sense how this works right now. Except for if you consider that considering

00:29:22   it only works with this iPad, that there is something in this iPad that it's connecting

00:29:27   to.

00:29:28   Yeah, but I saw someone, I think it was Fraser on Twitter, say "How is this going to work

00:29:32   in terms of proximity. So if I have 20 iPads in a classroom and all the crayons look the

00:29:38   same, how do I know which one is paired with which iPad if I cannot plug it into the iPad

00:29:46   itself?

00:29:47   Yeah, but I guess it doesn't matter if it's super quick to repair it.

00:29:50   I guess.

00:29:51   So like if you touch it down and it doesn't work, you just press the button and it works.

00:29:55   Or Logitech makes lots of accessories. You know when you go to the bank and the pen is

00:30:00   like on a little ball chain that's like attached to the counter. They just do that with this.

00:30:04   It's just like a little chain. You just stick it into the lightning port and then you chain

00:30:09   it up on the other end. Perfect. This is a very interesting product because it's doing

00:30:13   a bunch of things very differently. Like it's made of aluminium and it's not round, which

00:30:18   I think is really great. It has some rubber sections to it. What do you think about the

00:30:22   design itself? I think it looks exactly as I would assume an Apple pencil for kids to

00:30:27   look. Right? Like it is simple, it is blocky, it is brightly coloured in places, it looks

00:30:34   nice and comfortable to hold. You know, I think it's fine. If this was the Apple Pencil

00:30:40   I would have been disappointed, but as a third party product I think it's fantastic. Does

00:30:46   that make sense? If this was the product that Apple gave me, I would be a bit like "Really?

00:30:50   Is this the best you could do?" Because it does look, it looks childlike, it looks like

00:30:55   a device for kids in a way. So I think it's perfectly fitting the bill. I think it has

00:31:01   some interesting features. I think that the very quick pairing is kind of cool. A lot

00:31:05   of people are super excited about the fact that it doesn't have an Apple, it doesn't

00:31:08   have a lightning port built into it because apparently that's horrific design. Let me

00:31:12   just, let me just rephrase stuff that is something I've said a million times. If you use the

00:31:16   Apple Pencil, the very best thing the Apple Pencil has is the fact that the lightning

00:31:21   port is built into it. So no matter where you are, you can always plug it into the Apple

00:31:25   iPad you're using to get power. I know it looks awkward, I know it looks weird and

00:31:30   "ah, Johnny Ive!" but that was genius design. If you would, because you build it like

00:31:35   this, when this thing runs out of battery somebody has to go plug it in somewhere.

00:31:38   You have to go find the charger and it is way easier to be able to just plug it

00:31:44   into the device that has infinitely more power on it and just charge it for 30

00:31:48   seconds and then just use it again. Right, it works way better that way. I know it

00:31:52   looks awkward, I know it looks weird, and if you don't use the Apple Pencil on a frequent

00:31:55   basis, then this isn't a thing that you come across. But if you do use the Apple Pencil

00:32:00   on a frequent basis, then you're happy for the fact that it can be charged immediately.

00:32:05   But this product doesn't have that, which I assume is a cost-cutting saving thing, and

00:32:09   I've seen a few people mention about this, right, like, in schools, devices are plugged

00:32:13   in at the end of the day, and this has an eight-hour battery life, so it's not necessarily

00:32:17   going to be a problem. But I think this is really interesting. I think this is clearly

00:32:23   Logitech get given the contract to build the products that Apple want but don't, but don't,

00:32:30   can't make for many reasons. But the main one being that the one that they would make

00:32:35   is twice the price and they know they can't do that.

00:32:39   Johnny doesn't want to design it. Yeah, like they don't want to design it. They don't want

00:32:43   manufacture it and they might as well have somebody else do it. And I understand that,

00:32:47   right? Because all these Logitech products are never going to sell in the volumes that

00:32:50   Apple sell, and they don't look particularly nice, and/or they have functionality that's

00:32:56   kind of janky and weird, but is needed in some instances, so why not give it to a third

00:33:01   party to build, rather than building it yourself and charging too much for it?

00:33:05   It's interesting though that these arguments can be made only for small niches, like pro

00:33:12   users, well Apple is gonna let Logitech make smart keyboard alternatives. Or education,

00:33:18   well Apple is gonna let Logitech make a crayon. But the same argument cannot be applied to

00:33:25   products with a wider appeal. For example, Apple is not letting Logitech make W1 chip

00:33:31   powered headphones. Because AirPods are just so damn popular and Apple wants to control

00:33:36   all of that pie, essentially. So when it comes to these small categories, sure Logitech can

00:33:43   come on board and make a third-party version, but only Logitech for some reason, which almost,

00:33:49   I mean the smart connector could be easily renamed the Logitech connector at this point.

00:33:56   The Logi connector. The Logi connector.

00:33:59   Because they are called Logi as well. They are.

00:34:02   Outside of the US, the company is actually called Logi.

00:34:05   My camera is called the Logi Circle. So yeah, Logi.

00:34:09   I got the Logi Create. I didn't get the Logitech Create.

00:34:13   Is that a Europe thing? I didn't know it was a Europe thing.

00:34:16   Yeah, I think it's everywhere outside of the US. I think they're still called Logitech

00:34:21   in the US, and they used to be called Logitech here, but they rebranded a couple of years

00:34:25   ago to Logi. And they're called Logi everywhere else. So I mean, I think that this is a good

00:34:30   I hope that one day I'm able to try an Apple as a logi logi crayon somewhere

00:34:37   They are obviously of course only available to schools. It is a good product

00:34:41   But you know, I want my Apple pencil like that's the product that I want but I like that this one exists and I cannot

00:34:47   Under I cannot think why a school would pay $89 for an Apple pencil

00:34:52   It almost feels like there was no point in even giving that discount

00:34:56   Because you may as well just get the $49 Logitech one which basically has everything, right?

00:35:01   It seems a bit strange to me to even to even have done the $10 discount because who's gonna buy it

00:35:06   Yeah, I don't know even if even if you apply the discount to ten students you're saving a hundred dollars

00:35:14   Which is you know, it's it's not much. It's not it's nothing, right?

00:35:18   It's like it's not it's not it's not enough when there is a $50 product available every nine students

00:35:24   you get one free Apple Pencil.

00:35:27   It's a big offer.

00:35:29   - Steven, what about the Mac?

00:35:31   There was no Mac stuff, really.

00:35:32   There was no Mac stuff of note.

00:35:34   Is this a concerning thing for you?

00:35:36   Did you expect it?

00:35:37   - I remember that computer.

00:35:38   I really liked it.

00:35:39   - It was nice.

00:35:42   - I think what I said on query is that

00:35:45   I've always been a little confused

00:35:47   by Apple's two-prong approach in education,

00:35:50   that they have the MacBooks

00:35:52   and they have the iPads, and look,

00:35:56   the MacBook Air is never gonna be the cost of an iPad.

00:36:01   It's just not the company that Apple is.

00:36:04   Maybe they should be, but they're not,

00:36:05   and it's not gonna change.

00:36:07   And with that in mind, I think this event helped clarify

00:36:11   for me what Apple's education strategy may be,

00:36:15   that it is iPad first, that they really believe

00:36:18   the iPad is the future of computing,

00:36:21   that a lot of young people are sort of like touch first now.

00:36:26   We sort of struggle to think about typing an essay

00:36:30   on a piece of glass, but there are probably kids doing that

00:36:33   at some point.

00:36:34   If they're not now, they will be in the next couple years,

00:36:36   I think.

00:36:36   - Federico used to write all of his articles that way.

00:36:39   - Oh yeah, and he was a kid then, so that's perfect.

00:36:41   - People do it, is my point, people do it.

00:36:43   - Yeah, yeah, but it breaks my brain to think about it.

00:36:46   So the iPad meets kind of the future looking needs,

00:36:50   They get all the multimedia stuff.

00:36:52   It's cheaper than a MacBook.

00:36:54   So I think Apple's strategy here is

00:36:55   the iPad is our answer for education,

00:36:58   but we have the Mac as well if you have those needs.

00:37:01   And so what a lot of school districts do,

00:37:04   actually I was talking to a reader

00:37:07   over email last night about this.

00:37:08   He's in IT in a really large school district

00:37:10   that does elementary, middle, and high school.

00:37:12   And so kids don't necessarily stay on an iPad forever.

00:37:18   So like what they do is they have iPads

00:37:20   in elementary and middle, but in high school

00:37:22   they use a mix of Chromebooks and MacBooks

00:37:25   because their needs shift a little bit

00:37:27   and they feel like a laptop form factor

00:37:30   makes more sense for those older students.

00:37:33   So this isn't like, the iPad doesn't have to win

00:37:36   Apple's education strategy and the Mac doesn't have to lose.

00:37:39   Like it's a mix, but clearly it is iPad first now.

00:37:42   And they have the Mac if you need it

00:37:44   and you're still gonna see iMacs in classrooms

00:37:46   and in labs and in libraries and that sort of stuff.

00:37:50   But I think they're really going into education

00:37:52   with the iPad being the focus.

00:37:55   And I think that's totally fine.

00:37:57   I would like to see Apple have an entry-level Mac notebook

00:38:02   that is more relevant than the MacBook Air.

00:38:06   By the way, you can still buy the 11.6-inch MacBook Air

00:38:08   if you're a school.

00:38:09   But it's still expensive for what it is,

00:38:12   and so maybe there's room there for them

00:38:14   to make some changes.

00:38:15   but I'm not particularly worried that this event

00:38:18   says something about the future of the Mac

00:38:20   because I think at least in education,

00:38:22   Apple's gonna be iPad first from here on out.

00:38:24   - Which I think is a sensible approach,

00:38:27   provided that Apple have a long-term vision

00:38:31   that supports this, right?

00:38:34   Like, there needs to be continued development

00:38:37   of this platform into different form factors

00:38:40   if they believe it's the platform of the future.

00:38:43   So therefore it's the platform

00:38:44   they pushed the children. But yeah I think that the event was like okay it's kind of what I expected

00:38:51   I think that some of the messaging is weird but it's as weird as again as I would have expected

00:38:58   it to be and there was some cool little bits and bobs that came out of it like some of the

00:39:02   Logitech stuff but yeah I guess that's kind of it really like it was it was what it was there's a

00:39:08   bunch of stuff we didn't see there's a bunch of stuff that I expected to see and we didn't see

00:39:11   And I guess all of that stuff like air power will come later, I suppose, I guess at some point maybe.

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00:40:58   There was a rumor which came during the event yesterday from KGI Securities from Ming-Chi

00:41:05   Kuo about a potential future redesign of the Apple Watch, the Series 4, which I guess we'd

00:41:11   expect this year.

00:41:13   In a nutshell, new design with a 15% larger screen, longer battery life, and improved

00:41:19   health sensors.

00:41:20   Federico, what do you think about that?

00:41:22   The larger screen, I'm really intrigued.

00:41:26   It suggests that Apple is getting rid of the bezels around the screen of the device, so

00:41:33   I would love to see an edge-to-edge Apple Watch form factor.

00:41:39   I wonder if that would impact the overall look of the device.

00:41:44   Because the design of the Apple Watch is fine, it is looking a bit dated, a bit old at this

00:41:50   point maybe.

00:41:51   So, I'm all for a design refresh at this point.

00:41:55   The health stuff, super unclear, super non-descriptive at all.

00:42:01   Improved health sensors.

00:42:02   It could mean new sensors, it could mean just better reporting, like I think it's clear

00:42:07   they don't know.

00:42:08   Yeah.

00:42:09   They have no idea.

00:42:10   Let's work with what we have.

00:42:12   The current heart rate sensor.

00:42:18   So I started working out every day a couple of months ago and soon after I started this

00:42:26   routine I noticed that the sensor on the Apple Watch, it was not capturing my heart rate

00:42:33   quite accurately or quickly enough.

00:42:36   So the Apple Watch sensor, it polls for data when you're doing a workout every 3 to 5 seconds

00:42:44   usually.

00:42:46   My problem was that because I mostly do indoor cycling,

00:42:51   and for some reason I realized that I move my arms around

00:42:55   when I do this.

00:42:56   I don't stand perfectly still.

00:42:58   Maybe I'm using the Apple Watch to control podcast playback,

00:43:03   for example, or I just need to stretch my arms,

00:43:06   but I move my arms around, and the Apple Watch

00:43:09   didn't like my wrist movements.

00:43:11   So it was giving me much, much lower heart rate

00:43:16   estimates, then it was actually true.

00:43:19   So I bought an external chest strap

00:43:24   for heart rate measurements.

00:43:26   And it works amazingly well, because it

00:43:29   uses Bluetooth low energy.

00:43:31   And it can poll for data every second.

00:43:34   So that at the end of a workout, when

00:43:36   you go into the activity app and you

00:43:38   look at the graph for your heart rate, you see a smooth line.

00:43:42   You don't see a bunch of spotty data points.

00:43:45   you see an actual curve, an actual line,

00:43:48   because the heart rate is being captured every single second

00:43:51   of a workout.

00:43:52   And ideally, an Apple Watch with improved health sensors

00:43:55   and maybe improved battery life will

00:43:58   be able to capture not every four seconds,

00:44:01   but every second also.

00:44:02   So it removes the need for-- well,

00:44:04   part of the need for an external chest sensor.

00:44:07   There's still the problem of depending

00:44:10   on how you move your wrist or how you move your arms,

00:44:13   the sensor will lose contact with your skin

00:44:15   all will be unable to measure your heart rate correctly,

00:44:19   but being able to poll for heart rate data

00:44:24   more frequently than three to four seconds,

00:44:27   that would be a huge improvement over the Series 3.

00:44:30   So I hope that when KGI says improve the health sensors,

00:44:35   it could be this, or it could be the rumor from last year,

00:44:40   that was the skin, some name I don't remember,

00:44:45   that like, remember that?

00:44:47   There's a very specific term.

00:44:50   - I couldn't tell you what it's called, but yes.

00:44:52   There have been rumors of other types of sensors

00:44:54   that they could use.

00:44:55   - Yeah, so I don't know what this could mean.

00:44:59   There's been also speculation

00:45:00   that Apple is investigating glucose monitoring

00:45:05   using sensors on the watch.

00:45:09   And I think we also see,

00:45:11   Do you guys remember Vic Gundotra? He used to work at Google and now he has this health company,

00:45:18   the the Cardia band. I think it's the company's called Alive Cora, something like that maybe.

00:45:26   Anyway they have this band which has been FDA certified in the United States and this band can

00:45:32   It can do, what's it called, an electrocardiogram.

00:45:37   It can do an ECG using the Apple Watch. And it can also measure the level of potassium

00:45:45   in your body somehow. I think there's a patent that's going around. I saw it on the news a few

00:45:51   weeks ago. So there's definitely potential for more on-skin measurement of interesting data

00:46:00   points. But of course the big question here is does Apple want to get into the

00:46:04   field of FDA certification? Which is, last year John and I on App Stories, we talked

00:46:12   to Dermot Daly, he's worked on a bunch of FDA certified apps for the iPhone.

00:46:19   And the entire process of getting certified for medical equipment

00:46:23   essentially, it's just, it sounds like a nightmare. You gotta work with regulators

00:46:28   months in advance and you got to show them what you're working on. And this has been

00:46:32   the big counter argument for Apple getting into more health stuff of, well, if they do

00:46:38   this, they got to work with the FDA and they got to get that certification months in advance,

00:46:43   which means everybody's going to know what Apple is working on. So I don't know. Maybe

00:46:47   there's a way for Apple to do this in secret, although I don't think it's possible under

00:46:52   US law. So we'll see. I mean, I would settle for a better heart rate sensor, but KGI, I

00:47:00   don't know what they're thinking. So it's interesting.

00:47:05   It makes sense to me, like a lot of this stuff, like a redesign with more screen. Like, yeah,

00:47:12   I believe that we are at that point. Like, I think that we are with the fourth edition,

00:47:18   I believe it is, I get confused in numbering now, of the watch.

00:47:22   I think that we are at the time for it to change visually.

00:47:27   I think that we have passed that point now and I would really really like to see that.

00:47:32   But whether it works out being exactly this, I don't know.

00:47:38   There's a lot of stuff going on here, right?

00:47:40   Like a bigger battery and more screen and better sensors.

00:47:44   It all makes sense logically and I hope that we see it but I mean I don't think it does

00:47:48   this stage, I would be willing to bet on it.

00:47:51   Like a larger screen could change things for developers, though, right?

00:47:55   It could be a problem if the I mean, the situation with Apple Watch apps is already

00:48:01   quite I don't want to say comical, but it's problematic in that, you know, there's

00:48:08   been issues with WatchKit.

00:48:09   We all we all know that we've been talking about this and changing the display form

00:48:14   factor. It would mean extra work for developers. And it would mean going back to those folks

00:48:21   and saying, "Well, now you're going to be letterboxed on the Apple Watch also, unless

00:48:27   you update your apps for the new display resolution." Or maybe there is a way for Apple to say,

00:48:33   "No, no, you're not going to get the letterboxed problem because we figured out a way to make

00:48:41   your assets look bigger or something. I strongly doubt that that would be possible. There will

00:48:47   be consequences for developers that do not adapt to the new screen size. So it would

00:48:54   be interesting to see Apple going back to developers who have been complaining about

00:48:57   WatchKit and WatchOS or even going back to developers who pulled their watch apps completely,

00:49:03   such as I think eBay and Slack most recently. Going back to those companies and saying,

00:49:08   well do you want to try again maybe? We have watchOS 5 and a new Apple Watch display size,

00:49:15   you want to bring your app back and also update it for the new watch please? I don't know.

00:49:21   I don't know what the relationship is like.

00:49:24   I would think anything that developers have to do to adopt a new watch would be slow.

00:49:31   You know, like, I would like a redesign.

00:49:34   Like it is, it's what, since 2015,

00:49:37   like I'd like something, primarily I'd like

00:49:40   something slimmer, but you know,

00:49:42   something a little bit neater and nicer looking

00:49:44   would be an upside, but I don't know if Apple would be,

00:49:49   I don't know if Apple has enough goodwill

00:49:51   to developers on watchOS.

00:49:53   You know, with the phone, they change sizes all the time

00:49:55   and people are just used to it because it's the biggest

00:49:57   product that Apple makes for developers to build on.

00:50:01   but the watch is not that.

00:50:03   And so, yeah, I don't know.

00:50:05   I don't know if they would, how that would be greeted.

00:50:06   - I would just love to be able to buy a cellular watch

00:50:10   in Italy, which is still not available.

00:50:12   And I don't think the Sears 3 watch

00:50:14   will ever be cellular here at this point.

00:50:17   I'm pretty sure they originally said

00:50:20   come in a few months later, but you know, months have passed.

00:50:25   - Have they actually expanded the cellular connectivity

00:50:28   anywhere outside of the original?

00:50:30   No, I don't think so. No.

00:50:32   Yeah. Interesting.

00:50:34   Some other weird... This is interesting. This is weird news. Interesting news. Foxconn, the company that makes Apple's phones,

00:50:41   has acquired Belkin for

00:50:44   $866 million. This acquisition includes Belkin and their subsidiary companies Linksys,

00:50:51   Wemo and Fin. Never heard of Fin before, but it's like a smart plumbing thing which can detect leaks and stuff like that.

00:50:57   Is that a thing? It's it's actually so as a site maybe this is in a house that has

00:51:02   Plumbing that's made of tears and sorrow, but this yeah, it's actually pretty cool

00:51:07   Like you put it

00:51:07   I think it's your water meter and it can detect like flow coming in and check for leaks and all this stuff like it

00:51:13   Is cooler than it sounds being a smart plumbing device

00:51:16   What I didn't know in this is that Belkin owned Linksys I that totally like I totally missed that

00:51:22   Didn't know that Eva. I knew we mo but I didn't know about links this no

00:51:27   I just wanted to say in terms of acquisitions we don't remember. Do you guys remember that

00:51:31   Mozilla now owns Pocket?

00:51:35   Every time this comes up it's just a joy for me again. Or what about the fact that Pinterest

00:51:40   owns Instapaper?

00:51:41   Oh, you're right!

00:51:42   Both of those services found weird and wonderful homes, didn't they?

00:51:47   Foxconn have said in a statement that the plan for them is to more aggressively expand

00:51:52   the Belkin set of brands in the US. They consider them premium consumer products and smart home

00:51:58   devices. These are the things that they're going to focus on. The thing that I find so

00:52:02   fascinating about this, like basically everybody else, who better to make cases and charges

00:52:07   than the company that actually makes the phones? I kind of can't believe this is allowed to happen.

00:52:14   Like it is incredibly uncompetitive. I guess this is kind of one of those things where like

00:52:21   nothing can happen about it really because they're not like it's not the same market right like Fox

00:52:30   Con have just acquired a company that they you know that oh and they're also just lucky enough

00:52:35   that Apple give them phones to make and now they have the plans I mean I have no idea what Apple

00:52:41   might say about this like Apple might ask for ring fencing for example between the companies

00:52:46   not that it will matter really though like you know you can ask whatever you want but what but

00:52:50   There's just no, I mean, there's no way that Foxcom will not be able to make things faster

00:52:55   than Belkin could make them before. Especially when, I mean, Belkin was already seemed to be a

00:53:00   blessed partner like Logitech, you know, in some ways. Like they made some of the weird lightning

00:53:06   adapters when the headphone thing went away. So, but it is, it is like super, like, I feel sorry

00:53:11   for everybody else, you know, like I feel sorry for like the Mophies of the world and people like

00:53:16   that because it's just like well Belkin's gonna just destroy you now

00:53:20   because they're just gonna be ready immediately plus they have Foxconn

00:53:24   behind them right which is like the biggest manufacturer technology

00:53:27   manufacturing house in the world. Foxconn may have been already

00:53:31   building stuff for Belkin like I don't know how close the two companies were.

00:53:34   Foxconn builds stuff for lots of companies. The way it's described is like a city right like

00:53:39   it's not even like a factory. They're gonna edit this podcast

00:53:42   honestly. No. Now they're gonna make both accessories for Mophie and Anker and

00:53:47   and also their own stuff. They're gonna be like, you know, when you when you hear

00:53:51   those stories at the restaurants they're gonna be spitting in the in the plate of

00:53:57   Mophie secretly. I nearly, I just nearly destroyed my microphone with water

00:54:03   because I had no idea where you were going with that and we got very close to

00:54:07   spectate town. They're just gonna put like bad battery juice into the stuff.

00:54:12   Yeah, it's a shame these things keep exploding. There is an angle to this

00:54:20   that is, it's a little weird to talk about, but I think it's worth

00:54:24   talking about. In the US, Huawei right now is like basically being banned.

00:54:32   Like they can still sell in the US. The FTC has not revoked their license to

00:54:35   to sell cell phones.

00:54:37   - This is such a weird story.

00:54:38   - All major carriers have dropped their agreements

00:54:42   with Huawei.

00:54:43   Best Buy, like if you're not in Best Buy,

00:54:46   you're in trouble.

00:54:47   Best Buy has dropped Huawei, their notebooks,

00:54:50   their tablets, their laptops.

00:54:52   And now the federal government,

00:54:56   the US Congress is working on a bill

00:54:59   to say that Huawei devices cannot be used

00:55:02   by government employees for work.

00:55:04   So like, if you work for, I don't know,

00:55:06   the Energy Department, back when we had one of those,

00:55:08   you get a BlackBerry, and then maybe you got an iPhone,

00:55:11   you know, years later, and now they're saying,

00:55:14   well, you can't have a Huawei phone.

00:55:16   It's believed that Huawei and the Chinese government

00:55:18   have some sort of like, relationship

00:55:20   the US government doesn't approve of.

00:55:22   I don't really know the details,

00:55:23   I don't wanna just like, talk off the hip about that.

00:55:28   But, they're, you know, Lynx is making like,

00:55:31   network equipment and stuff, Foxconn may run into an issue where the US government or parts

00:55:39   of the US population all of a sudden don't trust them because they're being operated

00:55:44   by a Chinese company. Unfortunately, that's just a very real thing right now. I'd seen

00:55:50   some comments about that on Twitter, that are they going to run into regulatory issues

00:55:55   or public trust issues the way Huawei has.

00:55:58   I don't know, I think Foxconn's in better shape

00:56:02   than Huawei in that regard.

00:56:04   And honestly, I think most people don't know who Foxconn is.

00:56:06   And because Foxconn, my understanding is

00:56:10   that Linksys and Belkin, they're gonna remain

00:56:13   their own brands, at least for now.

00:56:15   And so it's not like you're gonna walk into a Best Buy

00:56:17   and buy a Foxconn-branded charger, right?

00:56:21   In reality, all these devices may be being built

00:56:24   Foxconn behind the scenes, but they're going to remain like separate. So I don't know if

00:56:28   it's going to be a problem or not, but it's something that has sort of been part of the

00:56:31   conversation. Have I ever told you guys that when I was a kid, so I, when I was like really

00:56:37   young, like six or seven or up until eight until I think we started, we started studying

00:56:44   English in elementary school in the third or fourth grade, maybe I thought, so I didn't

00:56:51   no English at all. And I thought that Made in China was a brand. And so I would, because

00:56:57   I used to read Made in China on labels and stuff.

00:57:04   My favorite clothing brand is Made in China.

00:57:10   Yes. Stuff like that. I was like, oh, this is Made in China.

00:57:16   That's like the joke from Friends, right? I think it's Friends. Like, why do so many

00:57:20   bad things happen at the place called Gunpoint, right? Like a man was killed while being held

00:57:25   at Gunpoint. There's a bank robbery at Gunpoint. It's just that kind of idea. Made in China,

00:57:31   everybody's favorite clothing brand. That's wonderful, man. I absolutely love that.

00:57:35   That's really funny.

00:57:36   Oh dear. Alright, today's show is also brought to you by Audible, the leading provider of

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00:59:23   I've read a lot of these types of books and Triggers is one of the best ones that I've

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00:59:55   I believe we're going to get into a bit of story time. I think we've got a story time

01:00:00   gripe's section here. Federico, do you want to go first to talk about some issues you've

01:00:05   been having with the HomePod?

01:00:06   >> Sure. So since I got the HomePod and then the second one, I couldn't use the personal

01:00:14   request feature at all. And initially I thought that it was just a problem with third-party

01:00:21   SiriKit apps, that I wasn't able to use them because I was on the iOS 11.3 beta and that

01:00:31   it was just a beta problem. But then last week I got really annoyed because I... not

01:00:38   even the basic stuff like setting reminders, like the Apple native reminders or reading

01:00:44   my messages, none of that stuff worked. And so I spent a couple of days doing research

01:00:50   and trying to understand how the personal requests feature worked.

01:00:55   And I saw on Reddit and on the Apple Discussions forum board, I saw other folks having the

01:01:02   same problem of, I turn on personal requests, but it doesn't work.

01:01:07   And my problem was slightly different in that the iPhone kept asking me for authentication

01:01:16   As soon as I spoke a request that involved reminders

01:01:20   or messages, I got a notification on my phone

01:01:24   saying Siri would like to help with reminders.

01:01:28   And then when I tapped the notification,

01:01:30   it would open the Siri UI on my iPhone and on my iPad,

01:01:34   and it would just give me an error, something like,

01:01:37   I'm sorry, I cannot help with that.

01:01:39   And so that was useless.

01:01:40   And initially I thought, well,

01:01:42   this is just an iOS 11.3 beta problem.

01:01:45   I should downgrade one of my two iPads to the stable version of iOS 11.

01:01:50   So I went back to iOS 11.2.6.

01:01:55   I set it up from scratch again.

01:01:57   And of course, in the meantime, I should say I had already tried to reboot, reset the HomePods

01:02:03   twice.

01:02:05   I didn't log out of my iCloud account because that was just annoying.

01:02:09   But then when I did the downgrade on my small iPad Pro, of course, I started from scratch.

01:02:15   backup, new iCloud login, everything was new. I tried again, still didn't work. I got a

01:02:23   Siri notification again as soon as I tried to ask a reminder question. I tapped the notification

01:02:29   and this time the reminder was being created. So that was progress, but of course still

01:02:35   no HomePod only functionality. And eventually I gave up and then I came back the other day

01:02:45   and I realized, you know, I first set up HomeKit when it launched with iOS 8, iOS 9, anyway,

01:02:56   years ago. And I realized, you know, maybe something is wrong with my HomeKit configuration.

01:03:04   not only was the HomePod not working with personal requests, everything else was fine

01:03:09   by the way, controlling my own HomeKit devices, playing music, just the personal request stuff

01:03:15   was not working. And the personal request is tied to a device and is tied to my Apple

01:03:21   ID. Because Apple says so...

01:03:23   So you were thinking that one of the many betas that you've been on over the years may

01:03:28   have kind of like screwed something up somewhere.

01:03:29   - I thought something is wrong with my HomeKit setup

01:03:33   and the authentication that connects HomeKit

01:03:38   with my Apple ID.

01:03:40   Because HomeKit remote access was not working for Sylvia,

01:03:45   and she's a guest of my HomeKit configuration

01:03:49   with family sharing.

01:03:50   So there was a common thread between

01:03:53   personal requests not working,

01:03:55   my HomeKit setup, and remote access for a guest

01:03:59   that is also not working.

01:04:00   And the thing in the middle was my Apple ID

01:04:04   and my HomeKit setup.

01:04:06   So it was either one of the two things,

01:04:07   either I delete my Apple ID,

01:04:09   so I delete my iCloud account and I make a new one,

01:04:12   which of course was not an option,

01:04:14   or I delete my home configuration from the home app

01:04:19   and I create a new home from scratch,

01:04:23   which means I re-add all of my devices,

01:04:26   I recreate all of my automations,

01:04:29   I recreate all of my scenes, basically everything from scratch again, which I did.

01:04:34   And of course, that was the problem that fixed all of my issues.

01:04:39   Somehow, sometime in the past, I don't know when along the way of the many, many

01:04:45   videos that I installed, something went wrong.

01:04:47   I my Apple ID was not given, I guess, the proper authorization to HomeKit to perform

01:04:55   personal requests on the HomePod,

01:04:57   or to give Sylvia proper remote access.

01:05:00   And now everything is working again.

01:05:04   But I want to call out two things that I noticed.

01:05:08   Of course, recreating everything from scratch is bad.

01:05:12   It sucks, it's terrible.

01:05:15   And I wish that the world,

01:05:17   maybe this is the common theme of this mini topic.

01:05:22   There have to be better troubleshooting,

01:05:25   solutions that do not involve delete everything and start from scratch again.

01:05:30   But also I was able to appreciate the way that Homebridge, the custom HomeKit

01:05:37   plugin I ran on a Raspberry Pi, the way that it works. Because all the

01:05:43   accessories that were previously set up with Homebridge, I didn't need to add

01:05:48   those manually one by one. All I needed to do was to scan the fake QR code that

01:05:54   Homebridge gives you and all the accessories were imported.

01:05:58   Again, I just needed to assign them to a room.

01:06:01   I didn't need to scan to any custom HomeKit codes.

01:06:05   I just needed to scan one of them because Homebridge is the bridge, is the single

01:06:09   bridge that contains all of the accessories.

01:06:12   So that was really convenient.

01:06:13   I just want to say that we're going to talk about this, like because I know Steven, you

01:06:20   have some stuff too, but and I agree that like, you know, better troubleshooting tools,

01:06:24   whatever they might be would be good.

01:06:25   But it is worth appreciating yours very specific.

01:06:28   So like such set of circumstances that you believe led you to this route,

01:06:31   which is installing iOS betas over many years

01:06:35   when they were just developer betas. Right.

01:06:37   I know. I know.

01:06:38   Like, you know, I totally get what you're saying that like

01:06:42   it would be really great if someone could just tell you

01:06:44   that was what you had to do rather than you just hoping and assuming

01:06:48   and guessing you might need to.

01:06:50   But this probably if that was the reason like if you're

01:06:53   if your hypothesis was correct, like, I don't think it's fair to us to say that they have

01:06:59   to like, fix that because well, you do that at your own risk.

01:07:03   Yeah, I know. And that was probably the cause, honestly, like all the betas, all the resets

01:07:10   and the, you know, all the changes that are gone through first developer beta, public

01:07:15   beta, stable version, developer beta again, that messes things up.

01:07:19   It's funny that it just happened now though, right? Like what changed?

01:07:22   I don't know. I don't know. I suppose it's the way the personal requests work. The feature

01:07:29   needs to see one device on your local network, but the Apple ID needs to be the same. The

01:07:36   same Apple ID on the connected device, so my iPhone, and the Apple ID that the HomePod

01:07:43   was set up with originally. So I just assumed that the problem was there and between deleting

01:07:51   my iCloud account and deleting the HomeKit configuration, I just went with the HomeKit

01:07:56   option. Which is annoying.

01:07:58   You mentioned deleting your account. How far would you have to go before you would do that?

01:08:04   Oh no, no way. I would have kept not using personal requests.

01:08:08   Oh yeah.

01:08:09   Yeah. I don't, I mean...

01:08:11   Can you think of anything? It's like, this is a difficult question, but like, is there

01:08:15   anything that like you need so bad like this tied to your Apple ID that if it

01:08:20   didn't work you would delete it all and go over it? I have an example it's not

01:08:24   something that is not working but I don't know if you've seen what our

01:08:28   friend Shahid has been going through with his Apple ID. Yes. All the security

01:08:33   issues that have been going on with his Apple ID someone is trying to break into

01:08:37   his iCloud account for years now and it keeps... Yeah and it's almost every couple of

01:08:42   days Shahid's iCloud account gets locked. It gets locked and he's been contacting Apple

01:08:48   support, it showed us messages and they are unable to fix this problem for him.

01:08:52   And in that case, I mean, Shahid is very patient, he's been keeping up with these

01:08:57   problems, I wouldn't be able to do the same. I would just delete my

01:09:01   Apple ID and create a new one and be done with it. That is a very good example.

01:09:06   I wouldn't be able to deal with what Shahid is dealing with either, but he has

01:09:10   the patience of a saint so he can deal with it. But I know that I wouldn't be able to,

01:09:14   so yes, I would have nuked it out of orbit a long time before.

01:09:17   Steven, you've been having some Apple Notes problems?

01:09:20   Yeah, so I store a lot of stuff in Apple Notes. I've got a couple hundred notes in there easily.

01:09:27   And a couple weeks ago, I went to add a PDF to a note, drug it in there, not a big PDF,

01:09:32   like three or four megs, and I come back later and I notice on the Mac the little spinner

01:09:38   in Notes, a little activity indicator is still spinning,

01:09:41   like hours later.

01:09:43   It's like, oh, that's weird, so I pick up my iPad

01:09:47   and realize that not only is that new Note not there,

01:09:52   but I have a lot of things that have stopped syncing,

01:09:56   that the Mac has stopped sending changes to iOS devices.

01:10:00   iOS devices could still send changes to the Mac.

01:10:02   It wasn't completely broken, but it was partially broken.

01:10:06   - Do you remember this happened to me

01:10:07   when 11 came out, this happened to me.

01:10:10   So I kind of went through and made a sort of a list of, OK,

01:10:14   these are the notes I know that I'm going to lose these changes.

01:10:19   I went to System Preferences and to iCloud.

01:10:21   I unchecked the note sync, restarted the computer,

01:10:26   rechecked the note sync, same problem.

01:10:29   It pulled down old data.

01:10:30   It would not be in sync with my iPhone and iPad.

01:10:35   And what ultimately fixed it was completely signing out

01:10:38   of my iCloud account.

01:10:40   And the problem with that is that the iCloud credentials

01:10:46   are tied to all sorts of stuff, right?

01:10:49   Like not only my address book and my calendar,

01:10:52   but a bunch of sync data, and my entire photos library,

01:10:56   and bookmarks, and some files on iCloud Drive,

01:10:59   and on, and on, and on.

01:11:02   Signed out, rebooted, signed back in.

01:11:05   Notes is syncing now, but now I have all this other stuff that's

01:11:08   missing or halfway broken because iCloud

01:11:11   got disconnected from it.

01:11:12   My photos library, which has-- oh gosh,

01:11:16   I don't even know-- something like 40,000 images in it

01:11:21   just had to re-download, but crawl through the entire library

01:11:28   to make sure that the Mac and iCloud were in sync.

01:11:31   And it just is maddening.

01:11:34   That little note toggle should fix this problem.

01:11:37   And to back up even further,

01:11:40   Apple, you should have alerted me

01:11:42   when something fell out of sync.

01:11:44   Like, it should not be on me to notice,

01:11:47   oh, this is still spinning for some reason.

01:11:49   Oh no, I have two dozen notes that have at some point

01:11:53   over the last couple days fallen out of sync.

01:11:56   That should not be on the customer to see that.

01:12:00   back in the day with like iDisk sync,

01:12:03   you can make fun of it,

01:12:04   but Apple would pop up an alert on the Mac

01:12:07   and say, "Hey, we have a conflict.

01:12:09   "What do you want us to do?

01:12:10   "Do you wanna keep the local copy?

01:12:12   "Do you wanna keep the server copy?

01:12:14   "Do you wanna keep both?"

01:12:14   Now I'm not suggesting they do that in Notes,

01:12:16   but there should be some sort of notice that,

01:12:19   hey, your stuff has stopped syncing for some reason.

01:12:21   Something has gone wrong,

01:12:22   and there's no mechanism for that.

01:12:24   It's just up to me that I noticed it,

01:12:26   and it wasn't a huge deal.

01:12:29   like the couple things that I lost,

01:12:30   like I knew what I had changed, it wasn't a big deal.

01:12:33   But what would have happened if I had added a PDF

01:12:36   for like a flight or a hotel reservation

01:12:39   and then I travel with just my phone and my iPad

01:12:41   and then I realize I don't have that information.

01:12:43   Like it really makes me think about trusting Notes

01:12:48   because like this should be solid.

01:12:51   And Notes is solid until it fails

01:12:53   and then it fails in a way that's like infuriating.

01:12:55   So I agree with Federico,

01:12:57   Like there needs to be some, I don't know what it is.

01:13:00   Like I'm not smart enough to figure this out,

01:13:02   but I don't work at Apple on the iCloud team.

01:13:03   So I don't have to figure it out,

01:13:04   but there should be some sort of mechanism.

01:13:07   It's like a Bulletproof way to solve this stuff.

01:13:09   Like in the Mac, you would think unchecking the notes box,

01:13:14   that would fix it.

01:13:14   Like I was like, oh, I'll just uncheck it and recheck it.

01:13:16   And I'll be golden.

01:13:17   Like not true.

01:13:18   I should not have to log out of an account.

01:13:20   I should not have to recreate an account

01:13:21   to solve these issues.

01:13:24   But it seems like again and again,

01:13:25   when I talk to people with iCloud problems.

01:13:27   And iCloud is way better than it's ever been.

01:13:29   I really like a lot about iCloud.

01:13:31   But when it does act up, the way that you solve it very often

01:13:36   is just sign out of your account and sign back in.

01:13:38   And it's easy to say.

01:13:39   It's easy to give somebody that advice in email or tweet

01:13:41   or on a podcast.

01:13:42   But in reality, you could be looking at quite a bit of work

01:13:45   to do that.

01:13:46   You'll lose your afternoon.

01:13:47   You're going to lose your afternoon.

01:13:49   And then my very expensive iMac Pro on a very fast internet

01:13:53   connection took four days to like re-sync up my photo library and in that time my photos

01:14:01   were falling further out of sync and then it all caught back up.

01:14:04   That's a terrible experience.

01:14:06   So what was it re-indexing or was it like pulling all the photos down again?

01:14:10   It was re-indexing so I have it downloaded all local files to the local drive.

01:14:15   It was re-indexing but in that time it wouldn't see any new changes until it re-indexed.

01:14:21   It's like what are you doing?

01:14:22   It's ridiculous.

01:14:23   This is the thing, like iCloud is getting better.

01:14:25   Like it is getting a lot better.

01:14:27   Like a lot of the services that I use,

01:14:30   the iCloud services that I use, are vastly superior

01:14:33   than what they used to be.

01:14:35   And the proof in that is that I actually use them,

01:14:37   where before I wouldn't use them,

01:14:39   I would use something else.

01:14:41   But there is this problem in like so many things

01:14:45   being tied to iCloud that when something breaks,

01:14:48   if that is the way that you have to fix things,

01:14:51   which is to sign in, sign out,

01:14:53   It can just, it's like a house of cards that like topples down when you do that

01:14:57   sign out thing.

01:14:58   Because there are like a million things that need to be changed and need to be

01:15:03   rechecked and all that kind of stuff.

01:15:05   Like when I had this problem with my notes, I was sitting down for hours,

01:15:10   like working out like what notes do I have?

01:15:12   Where is the source of truth, right?

01:15:14   Like because I didn't want to lose any data because I didn't know how much data

01:15:18   I'd lost.

01:15:18   So I went to iCloud.com and it wasn't all there, but it was all on my iPhone.

01:15:23   So it's like, well, what do I do?

01:15:24   And like, it was just a case of like checking and unchecking on many different

01:15:28   devices until like I did enough of this that it ended up going to the right place.

01:15:33   But there, there just doesn't really seem to be a way to deal with it, which is a,

01:15:40   which is a frustration.

01:15:41   Yeah.

01:15:42   And it's strange because on the Mac, you can still, if you, if you want to, and if

01:15:46   you know where to look, you can still do things like manually delete caches, for example,

01:15:51   which you cannot do on iOS. Or you can delete all the application support files and all

01:15:56   that junk. You cannot do the same on iOS. So the Mac still gives you the ability to

01:16:01   debug manually things or to get rid of, you know, these files that can cause problems

01:16:07   in the long term, but you don't have the same kind of manual nerdy and advanced controls

01:16:14   for iCloud which is frustrating. So yeah, there should be more manual stuff for people

01:16:20   that know what they're doing without having to go to the Genius Bar or log in out of their

01:16:26   accounts and back in again.

01:16:28   I mean, I will forever and a day give my number one example of this is the Apple Watch. That

01:16:36   like, if something gets screwed up, the only thing you can do is go to a Genius. Like they

01:16:41   will not let you plug it into a device and reset it, which is wild.

01:16:48   It's even more basic like that. Like I have this problem routinely where my watch will

01:16:53   stop sending, it's doing it right now actually, if I reply to somebody via iMessage, it sends

01:16:59   as an SMS for my watch. And if I'm on, say the other day I rode my bike to run some errands,

01:17:05   I left my phone at home and took my cellular Apple watch with me, and I dictated text to

01:17:10   and it's sent as an SMS, which is like,

01:17:12   it's not a big deal, but it's like,

01:17:14   I don't know how to fix it.

01:17:15   Like I can sign in out of iMessage, I've done that,

01:17:17   I've rebooted everything.

01:17:19   Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

01:17:22   And that's what's so frustrating

01:17:25   about Apple software and services.

01:17:27   And again, I wanna balance this with iCloud,

01:17:30   and this stuff is better than it's been in a long time.

01:17:33   Like iCloud is really solid for most things.

01:17:35   But when things do go wrong, 'cause things do go wrong,

01:17:38   It's like this black box.

01:17:40   There's no way on iOS on my phone to be like,

01:17:43   hey, toggle iMessage on and off just on the watch.

01:17:46   Or like, it's just one of those things,

01:17:49   like I guess it'll get fixed at some point,

01:17:51   or I'll reboot my watch one day, or the battery will die

01:17:54   or something, and it'll work again,

01:17:55   and then one day it won't.

01:17:56   Like I'm left to the whims of what it wants to do.

01:17:59   - Well I guess the only thing that we can do now

01:18:01   is to uncheck and recheck this podcast,

01:18:03   and then we can come back happier next week, right?

01:18:05   That's how this works?

01:18:07   Can we log out of a podcast?

01:18:09   - Well, let's try.

01:18:12   Come on, Steven, log us out.

01:18:13   - We're gonna go up to the Apple menu and select log out.

01:18:16   But first, I wanna thank our sponsors this week,

01:18:19   Squarespace, Smile, and Audible.

01:18:22   I wanna tell you how to get in touch.

01:18:23   If you wanna find an email address for us,

01:18:27   or more importantly, the links

01:18:29   to all the stuff we've talked about,

01:18:30   you can do so on the website,

01:18:31   relay.fm/connected/186.

01:18:36   that number keeps getting bigger and bigger really every week. I guess that's how that

01:18:39   works. It goes up by one every week, which is so

01:18:42   fascinating. We can make this a daily show. Let's not do that. If you want to find Federico

01:18:47   and talk to him about HomeKit on Twitter, you can do that at @Vittici. And of course,

01:18:53   he is the editor in chief of the glorious MacStories.net. If you want to talk to Myke

01:18:59   about how the Apple Pencil is useful to you or not useful to you, you can do that on Twitter

01:19:04   at I-M-Y-K-E and if you want to tell me how awesome I am at doing this outro you can do

01:19:11   so. I'm on Twitter as @ismh and I write 512pixels.net. If you like nerdy podcasts we have lots of

01:19:18   options go to relay.fm/shows. I promise you, you will find something else to love besides

01:19:24   connected. There's lots of good stuff there. And yeah, I think that's it. So, until next

01:19:29   time gentlemen, say goodbye. Adios.