185: The Myke Hurley School of Excellence


00:00:00   (upbeat music)

00:00:02   - From relay FM, this is connected episode 185.

00:00:12   It's brought to you this week by our sponsors,

00:00:14   Squarespace, Anchor, and Ting.

00:00:16   I'm your host, Steven Hackett, and right off the bat,

00:00:19   I need to thank Federico Vittucci.

00:00:21   He's not here today.

00:00:22   He has taken over for me in line in San Jose.

00:00:26   - Oh, that's a good idea.

00:00:27   that you can like go get some pizza and stuff and like just record the show and

00:00:32   then he just takes over. Have I gotta go there next week? Maybe we'll have to

00:00:36   consult the calendar. Okay. You know I didn't think he would want to make the

00:00:40   trip halfway around the globe but he's... Federico is a very giving person.

00:00:46   Well because the lottery is tomorrow right so I guess he'll know if he needs

00:00:50   to join you in the line so I guess that's why he's just made made a jump on

00:00:54   it. Yeah it seemed to make sense. So anyways that's Myke Hurley. Hello Myke,

00:01:00   how are you? Hello. You good? Yeah I'm good how are you Steven? Are you good?

00:01:06   Good. It's been I feel like this has been the theme this year so far. This part of

00:01:11   the year is generally quiet and like this Google Doc today is like bursting

00:01:14   at the seams of stuff to talk about. It's been a very busy March. I was off last

00:01:19   week on some vacation and like just tons of stuff happened every time I picked

00:01:24   my phone, there was something going on. We have a lot to get into, but first we're going

00:01:31   to start with a new section I'm calling "follow print." So we have "follow out" and we have

00:01:39   "follow in" and we have "follow around," but now we have "follow print."

00:01:43   I don't think "follow around" is a--I don't think that was one. What's "follow around"?

00:01:48   Oh, I can't really talk. It just--you know it when you see it.

00:01:51   Okay.

00:01:52   So there's this link we're going to put in the top of the show notes.

00:01:57   Our friend Jason Snell was in the newspaper talking about how the Mill Valley resident

00:02:04   records and hosts numerous podcasts in his garage.

00:02:07   It's a fun article.

00:02:09   It's funny.

00:02:10   I love this idea of like, "Mill Valley podcast?

00:02:14   It sounds like it's a superhero or something."

00:02:18   And there's one comment on this article which really makes me laugh a lot.

00:02:22   I bet it's really his mom's garage, which is just like, I love the idea in this person's

00:02:29   mind that like podcasting is not a business and like Jason can make no money from it.

00:02:35   It's very funny to me.

00:02:36   It's very sad.

00:02:37   He's a grown man.

00:02:38   It's a nice little interview though.

00:02:39   I like it.

00:02:40   It's great.

00:02:41   And it's funny.

00:02:42   It's always funny to be in a place like that doesn't understand what you're doing, right?

00:02:46   Like I feel like the Mill Valley Journal doesn't really understand what Jason's doing, but

00:02:51   they wrote this article about him anyway, and there's something kind of cute about that.

00:02:54   Yeah, that'll be in the show notes.

00:02:56   It is fun.

00:02:59   We have that in real life, right?

00:03:00   Like, "Oh, I'm a podcaster.

00:03:01   What?"

00:03:02   You know, but to see it in print.

00:03:04   Follow print.

00:03:05   New section.

00:03:06   So we have a kind of a section of follow-up that's sort of follow-up and sort of like

00:03:11   a pointer follow out to download which we're going to record tomorrow about

00:03:16   Facebook stuff and like news initiatives like there's a lot going on here there's

00:03:21   an article in the USA today about Apple news and their approach to solving the

00:03:28   fake news issue and basically it's a lot of staff a lot of human editors a lot of

00:03:33   curation going on there is a really interesting article kind of behind the

00:03:37   scenes and how Apple thinks about this and and how they are approaching it and

00:03:42   I think I think for the most part it's a it's a good way to approach it. Then you

00:03:46   have sort of on the other hand you have Google who has launched the news

00:03:51   initiative which is a it's really a series of things like it's not just one

00:03:56   program but they're investing 300 million dollars into journalism and to

00:04:03   journalistic entities who really focus on breaking news and so they can make sure that

00:04:08   what shows up in Google News and in the Google, you know, like the stream on Google Assistant

00:04:13   and that sort of stuff is all accurate and correct.

00:04:17   So a big investment there.

00:04:19   They're creating tools for journalists to be able to use for fact checking and data

00:04:22   collection and they are partnering with news organizations to sort of develop this alongside

00:04:30   them.

00:04:31   Kind of two sides of a coin, I think, of how you sort of handled this.

00:04:35   And I think both Google and Apple are making really good efforts in this push.

00:04:40   And that contrasts really strongly with Facebook's terrible, terrible week, which is still going

00:04:45   terribly for them.

00:04:46   And so anyways, I just kind of want to point people to download tomorrow.

00:04:49   I think that'll be a really interesting conversation.

00:04:50   Yeah.

00:04:51   I know we were talking last week about this sort of stuff, right?

00:04:54   Me and Federico.

00:04:55   And there is still a feeling that I have, which whilst I believe this is a good thing,

00:05:00   is like a... I just feel a little uncomfortable with hand-picked curation of news. There's

00:05:10   just something about it which I don't know if it will introduce new problems and that's

00:05:17   what these types of things just make me a little bit like "ahh I don't know" which is

00:05:22   like one of the reasons why in my life I tend not to pay attention to too many news outlets

00:05:27   anyway because it's not very helpful for me personally but like I just wonder if

00:05:34   these big tech companies just start curating news are there large large parts

00:05:40   of the world that don't feel like the news is served for them anymore which

00:05:44   creates problems like we have now in many places around the world or do

00:05:49   things just like purposely get left out that should be included I don't know and

00:05:54   And this stuff just makes me like, "Ah, I don't know about it."

00:05:57   Right? Because it's personal biases.

00:05:59   You have two ways to do this.

00:06:00   You either have biases or algorithms that can be gamed.

00:06:05   Like, they're the two ways of doing this.

00:06:07   And in my opinion, neither of them are --

00:06:11   well, they're not perfect. Neither of them are perfect.

00:06:14   And it's just about seeing, like, what are the biases?

00:06:18   How did I end up working out?

00:06:19   So it's something to keep an eye on,

00:06:21   but it feels like there is a problem

00:06:25   and it's trying to be solved,

00:06:27   but there is a potential that it's gonna be solved too hard.

00:06:30   And I'm kinda waiting to see.

00:06:33   I just remain a little bit skeptical

00:06:35   about all of this stuff.

00:06:35   - I think that's totally fair.

00:06:37   And I had a lot of complicated feelings

00:06:40   when I was listening to last week's episode.

00:06:42   I see what you're saying, and I think that is a real,

00:06:46   like there's always danger in that,

00:06:47   but the reality is bias exists well before news shows up

00:06:50   than Apple News or the Google homepage.

00:06:52   Like there's bias in newsrooms and--

00:06:55   - Call service.

00:06:56   - The big difference between these sources

00:06:59   that are artificial and fake and made up

00:07:03   versus actual journalism going on

00:07:05   is that trained journalists and trained editors

00:07:08   are taught to eliminate as much bias as possible,

00:07:12   but that's frankly impossible.

00:07:14   And you see this is exactly where Facebook screwed up

00:07:17   with their newsfeed a couple of years ago

00:07:20   where they had introduced human bias

00:07:23   into the stories that were trending

00:07:25   because they had to go through human curation.

00:07:27   And then they switched to robots doing it

00:07:29   and then Russia took over Facebook.

00:07:31   So it's complicated.

00:07:33   I think your approach is the right one

00:07:35   of always be thinking about that sort of stuff

00:07:38   and being aware that there are always humans behind all of it.

00:07:43   But yeah, I think that at the very least,

00:07:49   good things moving in the right direction. Yeah, I mean, like,

00:07:55   ultimately, this is probably, well, ultimately, this is better

00:07:58   than fake news stories being created, right? It is better than

00:08:01   that. But I say, I think it was right to just remember that

00:08:05   there's always people there. And that, you know, not every story

00:08:09   is the full story, right? Kind of the way. And there is this is,

00:08:12   like, all this stuff is so new, right? Because back in the day,

00:08:16   like when that newspaper that covered Jason, when their company

00:08:18   was relevant, you just buy their newspaper. And like, you had the biases within the newsroom,

00:08:23   but you trusted the system to work those biases out. And by the time a newspaper came out

00:08:26   the other end, it was as factual and as even handed as possible. But what we have now is

00:08:33   that news organizations have been splintered and news has been, has become a commodity.

00:08:41   And so you load up Google News, and you have 18 different sources there. And you lose the

00:08:47   credibility of going to your local paper and knowing that what they stand for and

00:08:52   the work that they do and so these tech companies have been inserted into the

00:08:57   news delivery system and now they have a as much as my note I'm not gonna yell at

00:09:02   Facebook but my number one problem with Facebook is that they don't seem to

00:09:05   understand that they have that responsibility and they do have that

00:09:08   responsibility and they've blown it and I think I don't know if Apple and Google

00:09:12   are gonna get this right I hope they hope they are but at the very least I

00:09:16   I think it's important to talk about it.

00:09:18   - Yeah, I just like,

00:09:19   why do tech companies even need to do this?

00:09:21   Why do these big technology companies feel like

00:09:23   they have to provide everything?

00:09:25   - It feels like the web portal days of the 90s, right?

00:09:28   Like you go to AOL or Yahoo

00:09:29   and you get your news in your email.

00:09:31   And when I see Google News or I see Apple News,

00:09:33   that's what I'm reminded of.

00:09:34   Like if those web portals had never existed,

00:09:37   would Apple run a news service?

00:09:38   Would Google have news on their homepage?

00:09:40   Like, I don't know.

00:09:41   - It just feels like, just do what you do.

00:09:44   Like you don't have to do everything.

00:09:45   I was like, oh, we're going to give you music and we're going to give you movies and we're

00:09:48   going to give you your news and we're going to give you just everything you need in life.

00:09:52   It's like, all right, just ecosystems, man.

00:09:55   Ecosystems.

00:09:56   So a quick reminder that we will be holding a live show during WWDC in conjunction with

00:10:02   AltConf and ATP.

00:10:03   There's a link in the show notes to get tickets.

00:10:05   Tickets are moving quickly.

00:10:06   I would not wait if you are going to be in San Jose at WWDC or hanging out.

00:10:12   You should totally just come hang out because it's a great town.

00:10:14   There's lots of fun stuff to do and lots of nerdy people

00:10:16   Be sure to get ticket because I think I think they're gonna be sold out here pretty soon

00:10:20   Yeah, we're planning a fun show. We've got some good stuff going on right now. We're really excited about it

00:10:26   And we think that you'll enjoy it if you come you know

00:10:30   You're gonna get to see the three of us like when because Federico's already there waiting for

00:10:34   The event and then we're gonna have some other relay FM hosts on stage with us as well

00:10:39   I'm kind of like similar as what we did in 2016

00:10:42   So we're really excited about it. I'm expecting that a lot of these tickets will move this week after the

00:10:48   The lottery is announced. So if it is on your mind or you're gonna be in town

00:10:54   Do not sit on this like they're five dollars. Just come and get one

00:10:58   So there was a little news this morning, right? So the iPhone SE no is not the iPhone SE 2

00:11:04   It seemed like if that was gonna happen is gonna happen today

00:11:07   And now I don't think there's an iPhone SE 2 coming anytime soon, but well, we'll talk about that later on

00:11:12   New Apple Watch bands, Myke. Your favorite Apple accessory.

00:11:16   I love that. You know what? You're probably right.

00:11:19   I think I am.

00:11:20   I bought the accessories that Apple sells. I think this is my favorite.

00:11:23   I'm really annoyed about this press release, though. This press release is very annoying

00:11:27   because they're talking about things that they're not showing, which really frustrates me.

00:11:32   So there's a bunch of... basically, there are no new bands, but there are new colors and styles of all of the existing bands.

00:11:39   So they have new nylon bands, new sport bands, they have some new Nike sport loops and bands

00:11:46   which are going to be sold separately for the first time and they have some new styles of the

00:11:50   Apple Watch MS. But all of the press stuff, it only shows a limited amount of the total

00:11:59   bands available and there's like one image which probably shows more of them but it doesn't

00:12:05   indicate what's what very well. So I find that very frustrating because I wanted to see them.

00:12:10   It seems really weird to just be like, "Oh, we're doing this thing. It's a very visual thing." And

00:12:15   they're going on sale later this month. And it's like, "Oh, just give me all of them. Show me all

00:12:20   of them." I'm expecting later this month means next Tuesday after they announce whatever it is

00:12:25   they're announcing in a high school. But that's coming soon. But yeah, I like the bands. I love,

00:12:32   I have basically come to the decision that the sport loop is my favorite of all time and I'm really keen to see

00:12:38   What the Nike ones are they called black pure platinum bright crimson and black?

00:12:43   Cargo khaki midnight fog and pearl pink and they show the pearl pink one

00:12:48   I think I can work out the crimson black one from the big image

00:12:50   But I want to see all of them so I can make some purchases. I

00:12:54   Like my Apple watch for the most part

00:12:58   But I really have not gone too crazy with the bands like nine times out of ten. I'm wearing the pure white

00:13:05   Sport band with my stainless steel Apple watch and then I have a black sport band and then I have an orange one

00:13:12   Which they don't sell anymore is one of the first colors

00:13:13   I think and I have the the nylon one. It's not wear sometimes but like I unlike you I really don't care for the

00:13:21   What is it the?

00:13:24   The new one with all the velcro. Oh, no, that's all not I love the sport loop. Yeah, I don't I don't really care for it

00:13:30   I haven't owned one, but I've tried one on the store and I didn't really like it

00:13:34   But uh, so I don't know like another thing here that really jumps out on me. I don't think

00:13:37   Let me try and sell you on the sport loop right there is is I like it

00:13:41   I mean one I do find it comfortable, but the other

00:13:44   You can adjust it to exactly

00:13:47   The like the grip that you want like that the size that you want where all of the others you have to fit within the holes

00:13:53   or whatever this one is like perfectly adjusted so when I'm swimming I tighten

00:13:59   it up a little bit when I'm just when I'm kind of hanging around the house I

00:14:03   loosen it a little bit that's one of the reasons that I really love it because

00:14:06   you can do that with it so hmm yeah I don't know the the regular sport band

00:14:11   the the hole that I wear it like fits like it's really good and it's funny if

00:14:17   you have multiple sport bands you will notice this there the colors are a

00:14:20   little bit different so like the white and the black don't feel the same and

00:14:23   the black is a like a millimeter tighter for some reason but um I could totally

00:14:29   see if I was in between sizes on this band that you know I would want

00:14:33   something more adjustable maybe I'll give it another shot and I always have

00:14:36   been by the way like I've always been in between sizes of all of the bands of the

00:14:40   holes in like I never feel like I get just the right fit that I'm looking for

00:14:44   and that's one of the reasons that I like it plus it makes this sound

00:14:49   Who doesn't like that?

00:14:51   That's a good sound.

00:14:52   That's a good sound.

00:14:53   All right, let's get to this March event, but first you want to tell us about a sponsor?

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00:16:27   thanks to Squarespace for the continued support of Connected and Relay FM. Squarespace, make

00:16:31   your next move, make your next website. So last week sometime towards the end of the

00:16:37   week I think there was a press invite that landed in a bunch of people's inboxes for

00:16:44   an event in Chicago at the Lane Tech College Prep High School. It is 10am Central Time.

00:16:52   Oh, finally! Finally! I needed to point this out. We did an upgrade, we did our draft. If you've

00:16:59   never heard one of the upgrade event drafts before, go listen to episode 185 of Upgrade. We

00:17:05   have a lot of fun with those. It's a novel way to do predictions. I noted, because Jason mentioned

00:17:13   it to me that because the event just says 10 a.m right and i'm so used to it being 10 a.m pacific

00:17:19   but because it's in chicago they're doing it at central so it is 10 a.m central time so just bear

00:17:25   that in mind when you're setting your calendars that is my public service announcement so because

00:17:30   i have done a draft of jason anyone that listens to that show they already know what i expect so

00:17:35   steven i want to talk to you about what your expectations are for this event so it's called

00:17:43   let's take a field trip it's in a school i think it's pretty safe to assume we're looking at

00:17:48   something focused on education in some way um rather than it being like the iphone 11

00:17:55   what if they show up and it's just like uh i don't know like it's all pro hardware and software

00:18:00   they're like one day kids you could be pros too and they just leave that would be this is where

00:18:05   they're going to announce the mac pro oh my gosh don't tease casey i know he's really excited about

00:18:10   And the iPod phone as well like any day now or the yellow submarine iPod like it's all of this stuff is finally gonna come true

00:18:17   That is some real hashtag TBT. Do you remember that rumor? We have talked about this for a second

00:18:22   There was a rumor for a long time a long time long time

00:18:26   That Apple was gonna do a special edition of the iPod remember the u2 iPod. I have like six of them

00:18:31   They're black and red and they're the engraved on the back with the signatures of the band

00:18:36   people really thought that Apple was gonna do a yellow submarine version and

00:18:40   They were like, you know like mock-ups like renders people like took a picture of it like colored it in Photoshop

00:18:45   And it I have an article here from TechCrunch

00:18:48   from July 12,000 and 7 yellow submarine iPod coming soon complete with Google's back catalog

00:18:55   Turns out not so true never happened, but it did make sense at the time

00:19:01   time though right? Because like this was back in the day when you would get these like

00:19:06   complete iTunes store takeovers because one of the last holdouts decided to go

00:19:11   to streaming like when like Led Zeppelin went to streaming and basically

00:19:14   everything on the iTunes homepage was Led Zeppelin for a week. Well not streaming

00:19:18   available to purchase online. That's it, oh my gosh yeah just available to

00:19:23   purchase on iTunes like they weren't digitally available and Beatles was

00:19:27   always coming so they thought well we'll do an iPod but it never happened. Is that when the Apple

00:19:32   homepage said a day you'll never forget? Was that the Beatles launch? Oh yeah yes a day you'll never

00:19:39   forget! We'll also find that put in the show notes. Oh my gosh, yes oh my gosh that was that was one of the biggest marketing

00:19:46   like PR blunders that Apple have ever done. Was it? We never forgot. A day you'll never forget. Wow wow yeah Apple

00:19:54   teases surprise. Tomorrow is a day that you'll never forget.

00:19:58   Oh my gosh.

00:19:59   This is I found out on Business Insider and they've got a screenshot.

00:20:02   They had tomorrow is just another day that you'll never forget.

00:20:05   Check back here tomorrow for an exciting announcement from iTunes.

00:20:08   And they had all the clocks and all the different time zones and everything.

00:20:11   And it turns out it was just the Beatles.

00:20:14   So here's look at this.

00:20:15   What's it referring to?

00:20:16   iTunes in the cloud, free streaming, a Spotify killer.

00:20:18   The Beatles on iTunes, 90 second song previews, iOS 4.2 for the iPad and iPhone.

00:20:23   something awesome from iBooks, something free, something crappy and forgettable, something

00:20:27   else. This is the Business Insider article by Dan Frommer on November 15th 2010.

00:20:33   Wow. That's incredible.

00:20:36   That's that that was and it was just the Beatles. See, you know what? This is kind of funny,

00:20:40   right? So last week when you went on the show, I decided to like tailor the show a little bit just

00:20:45   to... Oh, I heard the last I heard the last section. I heard I heard I heard.

00:20:49   And now it's just me and you. We're talking about like old Apple rumors.

00:20:53   I'm very accommodating to my co-hosts. Whatever they need I will provide them.

00:20:58   Very gentle co-hosts.

00:21:00   Very gentle co-hosts. So let's talk about expectations. What do you expect from the

00:21:07   event on Tuesday? What are your realistic expectations for what we're going to see?

00:21:11   I think we will definitely see some combination of iPad and Mac hardware

00:21:18   either geared towards students in general or specifically called out for

00:21:24   bulk purchasing. So a lot of people aren't super familiar with this. We're

00:21:29   going to talk about how, I just talked about in a blog post that we're going to

00:21:32   talk about after the next ad break, but if you're a school, so Myke you're a

00:21:36   school, congratulations. The Myke Hurley School of Excellence. Yes, I would

00:21:41   attend that. Yeah. So hard. Me too. And you need to, you want to deploy a

00:21:46   a one-to-one so every student in your school has a Mac or an iPad you just

00:21:50   don't like waltz down to the Apple Store and buy you know 150 MacBook Airs you

00:21:55   have access to buy them in bulk so you can buy max and a five-pack and they

00:22:00   come in a big box and there are five of them in there or you can that is wild to

00:22:04   me by the way oh yeah you can buy like a like a pack of max the yeah it's it's a

00:22:11   it's a five-pack you know like you get the Kindle fires but these are not $49

00:22:14   piece. Yeah. Or you can buy a 10-pack of iPads and with the iPads they roll in

00:22:20   AppleCare+ for either two years or three years depending on the SKU you want.

00:22:23   So you're buying in bulk and there are slightly discounted prices for those

00:22:27   purchases. In a former life I spent a lot of time in this field. When I left the

00:22:36   Genius Bar and started consulting, I like my biggest clients were actually Apple

00:22:41   clients and Apple would hire us to go into the schools and deploy Macs or even

00:22:47   for the state of Florida we deployed like 2,500 iPod touches across the state.

00:22:52   This is before the iPad and iPod touches are a terrible one-to-one program. I'm so

00:22:57   sorry children of Florida that you were given iPod touches in your science

00:22:59   classes but you cut up in all these five packs and and they're really well done

00:23:05   like all the serial numbers on the outside of the box you can scan them all

00:23:07   And it's all very well thought out.

00:23:09   The problem is it's all too expensive, especially

00:23:12   in light of Chromebooks.

00:23:13   And Chromebooks can do a lot of great stuff.

00:23:15   And they are taking over a lot of schools,

00:23:19   mainly, I think, for two reasons.

00:23:20   One, Google's cloud services, which

00:23:23   are free if you are a school, are just incredible.

00:23:26   You get all the normal stuff you get in Google Apps.

00:23:29   And you get lots of management tools.

00:23:33   And that stuff is really pretty easy to use.

00:23:35   can integrate your existing LDAP and do all this stuff. But Chromebooks are also

00:23:39   significantly cheaper especially than Education Macs. So if you're a school

00:23:45   mic you can go buy the 13-inch MacBook Air or even as Education you can still

00:23:49   buy the 11.6-inch MacBook Air. It's not for sale to consumers anymore but Apple

00:23:53   still makes it and sells it for schools. I fully expect that that world of Apple

00:23:56   hardware for schools will see some significant changes. That may mean that

00:24:01   the MacBook Air just gets cheaper. It may mean that there is some new low-end Mac

00:24:07   notebook for you know for schools. It may mean that there that $329 iPad which is a

00:24:14   little bit less for education buyers again that that becomes significantly

00:24:18   cheaper or maybe there's a new model which we can talk about in a minute but

00:24:22   I really think there's going to be a focus on addressing the Chromebook

00:24:26   problem more directly because I think up until this point, Apple for a long time has had

00:24:33   a very comfortable position in education.

00:24:36   There's all these stories about when the Apple II came out, like Steve Jobs even go to schools

00:24:42   and deliver them and set them up in classrooms.

00:24:45   Education has always been really important to Apple, just like music has.

00:24:50   For a long time, like in the 90s,

00:24:52   like when I was in elementary school,

00:24:55   and right around the turn of the decade in high school,

00:24:58   a lot of schools just had Macs,

00:25:00   'cause like schools just bought Macs,

00:25:01   'cause they lasted a long time,

00:25:03   and they just had that heritage, right?

00:25:06   Once you were a Mac school,

00:25:07   you kind of always a Mac school.

00:25:09   But over the last five or six years,

00:25:12   Apple has really lost ground to Google,

00:25:15   again, 'cause its Chromebooks are cheap,

00:25:18   they're easy to manage.

00:25:20   If you destroy a Chromebook...

00:25:21   It's price, right?

00:25:22   Like, price is the reason.

00:25:24   Price is by far the primary reason.

00:25:27   And I think Apple is going to do something about that.

00:25:31   You know, I don't know if they're going to have a MacBook that's $399, like I just don't

00:25:34   think that's possible, but I think if they can bring that MacBook Air to $600 or $700

00:25:40   or $800...

00:25:41   Well, I mean, like, $399 is possible, they just won't do it.

00:25:45   That's the difference, right?

00:25:46   They could make the plastic MacBook again and probably sell it for that amount of money.

00:25:49   now but they're just not going to do that, which I understand, right?

00:25:53   Because you don't want to completely sell out to it, but it depends on what the focus

00:26:01   is.

00:26:02   So yeah, I think something in there with hardware.

00:26:06   Whether this stuff comes to consumers or not, I don't know, but I think hardware is going

00:26:11   to be a significant amount of time.

00:26:13   Do you think though that they would do an event that is publicly referenced for just

00:26:18   stuff only for schools? I think Apple's so big if they hold an event just for schools

00:26:23   it's going to be public anyways. Yeah, but they don't have to hold an event at all. Right.

00:26:29   And they'd also, to add to your point and take away from mine, they don't have to invite

00:26:33   press to these things, right? Like, Jason's getting on a plane or a canoe or something

00:26:37   and going to Chicago. So, that, you know. Flying garage that he moves around in the

00:26:44   garage. His mom's flying garage. Jason Snell's wonderful magical flying garage.

00:26:48   coming to raw work. So look at their iPads on Macs right which I'm in agreement

00:26:56   with you, cheaper iPads, cheaper Macs potentially but what does that look like

00:27:03   right? If they do, do you think that they're just gonna take what exists

00:27:07   right now and make it cheaper or do you think there's gonna be new stuff that's

00:27:12   cheaper? I think the the easier thing to do is take existing stuff and make it

00:27:16   cheaper. I don't I think the answer to that question is how seriously

00:27:20   does Apple view the Chromebook threat. If they come out swinging with, I don't

00:27:26   think it's gonna happen, but come out with a $399 plastic MacBook or a

00:27:32   250 9.7 inch iPad or something. Yeah like if that would be awesome and

00:27:38   that I think would definitely be education only. So yeah I don't know I

00:27:43   I would like to see Apple take education more seriously.

00:27:46   I would like to see them make education only hardware again,

00:27:49   but I just don't know if that's in the cards right now.

00:27:52   - Well, let me ask you this then.

00:27:55   - Okay.

00:27:56   - 'Cause this isn't the first time

00:27:56   that Apple's done an event like this, right?

00:27:59   They did an event in New York a number of years ago,

00:28:02   which Phil Schiller presented, if I'm remembering correctly.

00:28:04   - Yes, the iBooks are gonna change textbooks forever,

00:28:07   which it totally, no, that didn't happen.

00:28:09   - Did not.

00:28:10   So what was announced at that event?

00:28:11   Was it just iBooks and iBooks Author?

00:28:13   I believe so, yes.

00:28:15   OK. So I mean, there is a possibility that they just

00:28:18   do a thing and it's not huge.

00:28:22   I mean, I'm definitely thinking that, you know, we're not going to have weeks

00:28:26   worth of things to talk about that come out of next week.

00:28:28   Right. Like, there is a possibility that by the time Connected

00:28:32   is ready, like we have like 20 minutes on it and that's it.

00:28:35   Which is not what, you know, usually like you would have an entire episode

00:28:39   dedicated to any type of Apple event.

00:28:41   But I'm really thinking that there's not going to be a lot for the general public to get

00:28:47   excited about next Tuesday.

00:28:48   Probably not.

00:28:49   It's going to be, I mean I think they've set that expectation that it's going to be smaller.

00:28:52   It's in a school.

00:28:53   I think too though, in addition to the hardware stuff, I do think there's a software component

00:28:57   here and I think only on the iOS side.

00:29:00   Like Mac OS Server is effectively dead and they roll a bunch of stuff into client.

00:29:07   I think the Mac education story is kind of going to be the same forever.

00:29:12   They have some cheap Macs and if you want them, you can get them.

00:29:15   But I think that they're pushing iPads and iOS in education.

00:29:19   And there's lots of talk about Classroom and Classkit in iOS 11.3.

00:29:23   I think we'll see whatever that looks like.

00:29:26   We'll see potentially some third party developers or people in iBooks, whatever, using this

00:29:31   stuff and showing how it can be rolled out.

00:29:35   And hopefully some more management stuff.

00:29:37   They have that classroom app that on an iPad,

00:29:39   if it's hooked up right, you can have multiple users,

00:29:42   and it syncs up to the cloud.

00:29:43   And I think all that stuff needs attention and more features

00:29:48   and some evolution.

00:29:48   So I think if there's a software story,

00:29:51   it's going to be effectively iOS only.

00:29:54   And if the Mac gets anything software-wise,

00:29:56   it's something that comes to the iPad first.

00:29:59   Right.

00:30:00   Or something that already exists on the iPad.

00:30:02   Right.

00:30:02   Totally.

00:30:02   They might do some of these education classroom

00:30:06   apps for the Mac? Because I don't think there is one, right? There is not. And really schools

00:30:11   from like a management perspective have all moved to something, or a lot of them have

00:30:15   moved to something like like Jamf, which is a sponsor of Relay, but they really like are

00:30:21   the place to go when you're talking about like fleet management. So if you have a school

00:30:24   with 1000 MacBook Airs, that's what you're using to manage them, not any first party

00:30:29   tools by Apple anymore. So there's, as with any Apple event, there's a lot of expectation.

00:30:35   what are we not gonna see, do you think?

00:30:39   Out of the possibilities, right?

00:30:40   I mean, like, we're not gonna see the next iPhone X,

00:30:43   but like, there are things that people are expecting could,

00:30:46   and like, in theory, could have a place

00:30:48   at an event like this,

00:30:49   but what do you think is not gonna happen?

00:30:51   - I mean, the iPhone SE is due,

00:30:53   but it's not, an education event is the wrong place for it.

00:30:57   I kinda thought when the Apple Watch PR release

00:31:00   dropped this morning, that the iPhone SE2 press release

00:31:03   was gonna be like five minutes after it,

00:31:04   and I'm still waiting for that, so.

00:31:07   - Yes. - I don't know,

00:31:08   I don't know what's going on there.

00:31:09   - Yeah, I mean, I thought that if they did it,

00:31:12   they were gonna do like what you said,

00:31:14   but like, I didn't think there would be something beforehand

00:31:16   like I figured that with the press release

00:31:18   of whatever happens on Tuesday,

00:31:20   there's also an iPhone, which could still happen.

00:31:22   - It could. - But I think it's less likely

00:31:25   now they've done the Apple Watch events.

00:31:26   - Unless that they, the only thing I would say to that is,

00:31:30   if this event is gonna be sort of lower in the press cycle,

00:31:34   that if you have an iPhone SE announcement come out at the same time, then maybe you can hope those two things can ride together.

00:31:39   So, maybe, you know, I think if we get past this event and there's no iPhone SE 2, then I don't think it's coming anytime soon.

00:31:46   Yeah, I mean, you know, it is worth saying stuff like AirPower and stuff like that you would maybe expect to come,

00:31:51   and it's probably not focused on the event, so there is still possibility, you know, especially if the iPhone SE got Qi charging,

00:32:00   which I don't think it will, but it could, and if it did,

00:32:03   it might be interesting to announce them together.

00:32:05   - Kind of go together.

00:32:07   I don't think the iPad Pro was part of this.

00:32:08   A, they just updated them nine months ago in June.

00:32:12   - So let me ask you then, why did they clearly hint

00:32:16   with an Apple pencil-y swoopy line for the logo?

00:32:19   Do you think it means Apple Pencil support

00:32:21   on the cheaper iPads?

00:32:21   - I don't read into the artwork.

00:32:23   - Yeah, but okay, but events do have things

00:32:28   that go with the artwork, right?

00:32:30   Like it does happen like the bokeh effect on the iPhone 7 thing etc etc etc.

00:32:35   That's such a clear sign that I would be surprised if the Apple pencil wasn't

00:32:40   included in some way in the event and if it's gonna be and they don't do an iPad

00:32:43   Pro it could do you reckon we would see that this this iPad this cheaper iPad of

00:32:49   Apple pencil support? I think it's a possibility that they and that

00:32:53   again would help set them apart from what Google is doing that if they have a

00:32:57   tablet with pencil input that that's different. A lot of those Chromebooks don't have touch

00:33:01   screens at that sort of lower price range. So yeah, I think it's a possibility that.

00:33:06   And I think whilst the Apple Pencil has been a thing to differentiate the regular one from

00:33:11   the pros, I think the iPad Pro that comes out this year, if it comes out this year,

00:33:16   will be visually different enough that it doesn't need the Apple Pencil differentiator

00:33:20   anymore. Like it can be differentiated by the fact that the screens are larger and it's

00:33:26   got face ID and all that kind of stuff.

00:33:28   New processors, I expect a cheap iPad to be, you know, it's not going to run the same internal

00:33:33   as the Pro.

00:33:34   So, yeah, I think it's a possibility.

00:33:36   So I could see it now, like a 9.7 with Apple Pencil support.

00:33:39   I think that that is a strong possibility and is really, really, really a product that

00:33:45   Apple should be making now, I think.

00:33:47   I mean, I still think the iPad Mini would be nice for a lot of people, but I don't think

00:33:52   that's going to happen.

00:33:53   But I think a 9.7 inch iPad with the Apple pencil would do really good for a lot of people,

00:33:59   like a lot of people, not even just the education crowd.

00:34:02   So, yeah, I would be surprised if they didn't do that.

00:34:05   What about any other Macintosh news?

00:34:08   Like there is still the possibility, right, of other Mac news.

00:34:12   Do you think that that's going to happen?

00:34:14   I mean, they have had education only skews of desktops in the past.

00:34:19   Right now, best I can tell, they don't.

00:34:21   they just have cheaper iMacs. But you know, it may be that they have something to say

00:34:26   about desktop Macs because desktop Macs do still have a role in education. You know,

00:34:30   the one to one program is where every kid has a device, whether it be a laptop or a

00:34:36   tablet, but in a lot of labs, a lot of libraries, a lot of classrooms, a lot of teachers are

00:34:40   still using desktops, there's still a lot of iMacs in education. And so yeah, if they're

00:34:45   if they're taking the time to talk about the one to one stuff, then there may be an opportunity

00:34:49   say, hey, and also, if you need a library full of iMacs,

00:34:52   we've reduced the price 200 bucks,

00:34:54   or you get more machine for your money or something.

00:34:56   So I wouldn't be shocked if it happens,

00:34:58   but I wouldn't be disappointed if it does not.

00:35:00   It's like this, ah, for all you teachers out there

00:35:03   who've got a lot of hard work to do, here's Mac Pro.

00:35:06   All you teachers out there.

00:35:07   I can hear that sort of voice.

00:35:10   Yep.

00:35:11   Rick Allen in the chat room asked a question

00:35:13   we don't know the answer to, of course, but we can discuss.

00:35:16   Do we think the event will be webcast?

00:35:18   we think there will be a video? I think that there is a possibility more than ever that

00:35:22   there won't be because it's in this weird place. I mean there still could be because

00:35:27   people will expect it, but I think that there might not be and I'm actually quite excited

00:35:33   about the possibility of there not being a video because it'll be back to live blogs

00:35:38   again and there's something nostalgic about that, right? Like I'll have The Verge open

00:35:42   and Six Colors open and TechCrunch and I'll be like scrolling and looking at all the pictures.

00:35:48   I don't know, there's something about that which would be kind of interesting, I think.

00:35:52   It might be in a weird way kind of enjoyable to do it, especially for an event that I'm

00:35:57   not going to be super bummed about most likely if I miss the announcements on a video, right?

00:36:03   Because this is probably going to be a little bit more low-key, that it might be fun to

00:36:08   experience that nostalgia for an afternoon.

00:36:10   Yeah, I don't think there's going to be a video.

00:36:13   I think it's probably too small.

00:36:14   And again, that helps set the expectation of, this is an industry event, we invited

00:36:18   press because it's going to get a new way, so why don't we control that?

00:36:21   But it's really an industry event.

00:36:23   So that, I would say that that makes it even more important to tune in to Upgrade because

00:36:27   Jason will be there and we'll be recording straight after, so make sure you subscribe

00:36:31   to Upgrade and listen to next week's episode.

00:36:32   It's like a live blog later, but in audio.

00:36:36   In audio form.

00:36:38   Imagine that.

00:36:39   Maybe we could try and convince Jason to live podcast from the event.

00:36:43   the event. Do you think Apple will allow that?

00:36:45   So we're talking about old Apple stuff. Do you remember the FaceTime demo and Steve Jobs

00:36:50   yelled at people for using Wi-Fi hotspots?

00:36:52   Yeah, it was like two weeks after everybody laughed at the fact that Google had the same

00:36:56   problem. Right? Google did an event and nothing was working and it was because of Wi-Fi and

00:37:02   then two weeks later Apple had to do the same thing. And it was because of those, like,

00:37:07   It was those little wireless box thingamajigs, right? Like the mobile hotspots. That was

00:37:14   what the problem was. Journalists used to take like four of those because live blogs

00:37:18   were such a thing, right? And you had to make sure that you 100% had connection. And if

00:37:24   you didn't, then you wouldn't be able to post anything. I'm actually really... I mean, that's

00:37:30   the one... That's the thing I'm most excited about with this event is the possibility that

00:37:33   there won't be a video. I don't know why. Maybe it's because I'm 30 now, so like I want

00:37:40   things of my youth or something. I don't know.

00:37:42   Wow.

00:37:43   But so now I'm looking forward to just reading some live blogs next week.

00:37:49   It'll be fun.

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00:40:00   So you wrote an article titled "E-Pad" which was in reference to everything that was going

00:40:07   on right?

00:40:08   You were kind of making reference to this education event because Apple has historically

00:40:12   had an "E" line of products.

00:40:15   What is the "E" line of products?

00:40:17   It's around the tenet.

00:40:18   It is Apple's former line of education only products.

00:40:24   The EMAC is the most famous example.

00:40:27   It was a G4 powered computer that looked kind of like an iMac G3 but just like bulked up.

00:40:32   A white, right?

00:40:33   Like just a little white.

00:40:34   Yes, all white.

00:40:35   Very heavy.

00:40:36   Very heavy.

00:40:37   While we're talking about old stories today.

00:40:39   God.

00:40:40   Mm-hmm.

00:40:41   Federico's never going to miss an episode again.

00:40:44   History time with Uncle Steven.

00:40:46   When I worked at the Apple Store as a genius, I had a school district about 90 minutes out

00:40:52   out of town who they would bring stuff in.

00:40:54   Like every couple of months they would show up

00:40:56   with like 10 things, right?

00:40:58   And one day they showed up in a white panel van

00:41:02   full of EMACs, Myke, full of like 25 EMACs.

00:41:06   The EMACs, there was one model that had a particular problem

00:41:08   there was a recall or like a repair extension program

00:41:11   so we repaired them for free.

00:41:13   But I accepted them all at once and these parts

00:41:15   were back ordered so our Apple store,

00:41:18   like literally any place behind the scenes

00:41:20   like at the manager's office or the break room,

00:41:22   I had to stash these customers' eMacs

00:41:25   until the parts came in, it took like a month.

00:41:27   I got very good at this one repair.

00:41:29   So anytime I see an eMac, I sort of like

00:41:32   get a little heartburn, thinking about

00:41:33   getting yelled at by my manager

00:41:34   for accepting 25 broken computers at once, but anyways.

00:41:38   eMac was an education machine,

00:41:40   was out at the same time of the iMac G4,

00:41:43   it was started at just $1,000,

00:41:45   which was like $300 less than the entry level iMac.

00:41:49   It was initially sold only to schools,

00:41:52   but it ended up rolling out to consumers everywhere,

00:41:54   'cause actually it turns out people wanted this machine

00:41:57   'cause it was cheap.

00:41:58   And it was around for a long time,

00:42:01   like three and a half or four years.

00:42:03   They had several models of it.

00:42:05   It was sort of the flagship for like the E line of computers.

00:42:08   They also had the E-Mate, which was like,

00:42:10   ran the Newton OS and was in a clamshell

00:42:12   and they made it for schools, it didn't do very well.

00:42:14   It was only like nine months.

00:42:15   But, um, the idea was that Apple, like,

00:42:19   did I tell you I have, I used, I used to use an email,

00:42:21   like I broke my wrist when I was a kid and we had them in school. Um,

00:42:25   I broke my left wrist, so I couldn't write anything.

00:42:27   So they gave me an email and I had an email for like six weeks or something.

00:42:31   I have one on my bookcase. Everyone looked at me really, really weirdly,

00:42:34   because I was walking around school with this like super strange computer

00:42:38   keyboard, like typewriter. It's a weird, it's a weird little device.

00:42:41   It's very weird. Very weird.

00:42:43   But the eMac in particular was really the last time

00:42:46   Apple made a true education only computer.

00:42:50   They've had skews, like we talked about in the last segment

00:42:53   of the 11 MacBook Air, the 13 MacBook Air,

00:42:56   that are cheaper, less powerful, or whatever.

00:42:59   The eMac Apple designed and developed and built

00:43:02   for education and they ended up selling them

00:43:04   to consumers as well.

00:43:06   I think there's room for this today, not in the back line,

00:43:10   because I think the future of Apple in education

00:43:11   is the iPad. But I think there is room potentially, if anything, it's a fun experiment, thought

00:43:18   experiment for an education first iPad for an E pad, if you will, a tablet that Apple

00:43:25   designs with the needs of education and schools in mind, and the consumer secondary because

00:43:34   right now what Apple is doing is they're taking the low end of their consumer line and selling

00:43:39   it to schools, right? So that cheap iPad, the MacBook Air, those are consumer products

00:43:45   that Apple is just sort of shoveling into schools at a slightly reduced price. And that

00:43:49   may be one reason they're losing ground to Google because Chromebook manufacturers are

00:43:55   making these machines. Some of them do the same thing with their consumer and education.

00:44:00   But a lot of them are making education specific models or at least models of education in

00:44:05   mind first. And sometimes the needs of the consumer in the school are the same. But a

00:44:10   lot of times, they're different. And the emac met some of those needs that schools had.

00:44:16   And I think the iPad in particular, is a device that I think would be very interesting to

00:44:21   see what it could look like if Apple made an education model that was, you know, primarily

00:44:26   built for schools, and maybe it was a consumer thing, too, but focused on schools, that would

00:44:31   be a very different approach for the iPad. And when I think that's a fun thought experiment

00:44:35   to partake in.

00:44:37   So I've thought of this in two ways, right?

00:44:39   Like if you take a current iPad, there's things you'd have to add to it and things that you'd

00:44:44   have to remove from it probably, right?

00:44:46   To turn an iPad into an iPad.

00:44:48   So I want to break these two things down separately.

00:44:50   So let's first start with what are the things that you would want to add to an iPad to make

00:44:56   it more focused for education?

00:44:58   I think the primary thing is making the product more rugged.

00:45:05   Ruggedability is the main thing that you're looking for.

00:45:10   I look forward to hearing Phil Seeler say that word on stage.

00:45:16   Ruggedability my butt.

00:45:17   That's what he's going to say.

00:45:21   And then they won't update it for four years and everyone will be sad.

00:45:23   I don't know the breakage rate of iPads in education.

00:45:30   So I talked to several people when writing this article and I kind of heard numbers all

00:45:35   over the map so I didn't really include any of them.

00:45:38   But no doubt some percentage of iPads get broken in schools and whatever that number

00:45:42   is schools would like it to be fewer iPads broken in schools.

00:45:46   I mean even if it's like even if you were a school and you'd never had an iPad break

00:45:52   right like never not one but they said this one is more rugged you'd be like gimme it

00:45:57   Right. Because it's it's the thought of what are we going to do if one day like some kid bumps into the cart and pushes them all down the stairs.

00:46:05   Right. Like in Home Alone with the the tour chest, you know, like is this going down the staircase?

00:46:13   So, you know, just the idea of it being more rugged, the idea of increased rugged ability would be a good it's just a good thing to have in an education focused device.

00:46:26   Right, which is why they sell who is it that makes that really weird block rubber case

00:46:31   that is only an education is that Logitech maybe that's like this this weird education

00:46:35   iPad case with a keyboard on it, which is a cool kind of rugged.

00:46:41   I'll find it.

00:46:42   Okay, it'll be in the show notes.

00:46:43   I'm not saying you've got to build that or like, make the thing like an OtterBox but

00:46:48   you could you could swap out the aluminum for something else.

00:46:52   You know, rubbery plastic thing thinking about the iBook G3 like I'm not saying you have

00:46:55   to build something curvy and orange, although if it was orange, more schools would buy it

00:46:58   Apple because people love orange computers.

00:47:01   Something to make it more rugged, you know, I think you have to keep the glass, but having

00:47:05   some sort of lip around it, making it tougher seems like a no brainer for me.

00:47:10   And while you're there, if you add a little battery capacity to get to the school day

00:47:14   easier, that's just a bonus.

00:47:15   I think pencil support would be good.

00:47:17   I view that as less important, but I think it's something that a lot of schools would

00:47:20   be interested in.

00:47:22   And I think a primary thing is some sort of keyboard system.

00:47:28   So I talked to Fraser Spears about this.

00:47:30   In the US, a lot of states for state testing require a hardware keyboard to be used.

00:47:36   I don't really know why that is.

00:47:38   I assume it's to make everyone on the same level playing field or whatever, or some sort

00:47:43   of ancient rule that's just carried on.

00:47:46   But that cheap iPad does not have a smart connector.

00:47:48   And so, if you are buying a bunch of iPad Air 2s

00:47:52   or the fifth generation iPad,

00:47:55   you're also buying a bunch of cases.

00:47:57   And if you buy a thousand iPads

00:47:59   and the cases are 40 bucks a piece,

00:48:01   you spent 40 grand on cases alone.

00:48:04   And then you gotta do the same thing with keyboards.

00:48:05   And so, maybe there's the smart connector

00:48:08   or maybe it's something if we're really going

00:48:10   just deep into this rabbit hole,

00:48:12   like why not have an iPad with a more

00:48:15   permanently attached keyboard

00:48:17   in some sort of clamshell mode?

00:48:18   or something a little more robust than the smart connector.

00:48:21   I think we've all have experienced frustration

00:48:23   with the smart connector in the past.

00:48:25   But having something available to make the keyboard cheaper

00:48:30   and tougher and more reliable seems like a pretty good thing.

00:48:34   - It's the Logitech rugged combo is what I was thinking of.

00:48:40   It is the ugliest case in the world,

00:48:42   but it's made for education.

00:48:46   I put a link in the show notes so you can see it if you want to.

00:48:49   It is horrific.

00:48:51   It takes everything you might like about an iPad,

00:48:53   it makes it uglier, but that's not the point, right?

00:48:56   The point is you make the best, most rugged-y thing

00:48:59   that you can make.

00:49:01   So yeah, in your mind, do you think that the best thing to do

00:49:05   is to change the actual design of the physical product,

00:49:10   or it just comes with this extra case?

00:49:12   What do you think is the best way to get around it?

00:49:14   It may be a change.

00:49:15   I mean, you know, I think if we're saying

00:49:18   Apple should create something for education,

00:49:20   then I think it, I don't think you're bound

00:49:22   by what the current iPad is, so.

00:49:24   - All right, so let's say in this,

00:49:27   in this Steven Hacker product, the E-pad,

00:49:29   would it have pencil support and a smart connector?

00:49:32   - I think it would have pencil support,

00:49:33   and I think it would, if it doesn't have the smart connector,

00:49:36   some sort of like reliable keyboard tech, you know.

00:49:40   I guess smart connector's better than Bluetooth,

00:49:42   so yeah, we'll say smart connector.

00:49:44   And here's something I thought of, right?

00:49:46   Because a lot of these devices are

00:49:47   kept in one of those big carts, which anyone can buy.

00:49:52   If you have 100 iPads at home, it

00:49:55   is possible on Apple's online store

00:49:58   to buy one of those big carts in case you need it,

00:50:00   which is one of the funniest things to me.

00:50:03   I love the idea that they will sell this to anybody.

00:50:06   I'm trying to find it now.

00:50:08   I'll find it and just say how much it costs

00:50:10   to stuff it because it's hilarious.

00:50:11   I think Gray had one before he gave up the iPad.

00:50:14   - Yeah, yeah, yeah, he did, he did.

00:50:16   He wheels it around from office to office.

00:50:18   And I was wondering, like, with one of these carts,

00:50:21   like some big solution, would it be, like,

00:50:23   really easy to just have Qi charging

00:50:25   in something like this, so you never have to plug it in?

00:50:27   - Yeah, it could be, it could be Qi charging,

00:50:29   or what a lot of those carts do now

00:50:32   is like the lightning cable is like in the back of the bay,

00:50:36   and then you sort of put the,

00:50:38   slide the iPad in and plug it in.

00:50:41   What the, speaking of the E-Mate,

00:50:45   what the E-Mate did, it has contact points on the bottom.

00:50:48   So you put it in the case or whatever

00:50:51   and it just makes contact with the case and charges.

00:50:54   So it's not wireless,

00:50:55   but you're not plugging something in either.

00:50:57   So I think just some way to charge it more quickly

00:51:00   and in a way that's less fragile,

00:51:02   like we've all broken lightning cables.

00:51:04   Like the one on my desk is like,

00:51:06   all of a sudden, like two days ago,

00:51:07   just started shredding its outer skin like it's a snake.

00:51:10   I don't know why it's doing that.

00:51:12   You don't like that at all.

00:51:17   Something to make charging more easy and more reliable.

00:51:20   Yeah, it's definitely a win.

00:51:21   I think it's an important part of education products for sure.

00:51:25   I actually can't find that cart anymore.

00:51:28   I think they might have taken it off the store, which is really upsetting.

00:51:30   I know it well.

00:51:31   I've put a lot of those together over the years for Max.

00:51:33   So let's talk about the things that you'd have to lose.

00:51:36   Because obviously if it has to get cheaper, right, then you can't make it like an iPad

00:51:43   Pro, right?

00:51:45   You have to take some features away from it to help make it something that can be cheaper.

00:51:50   So what does that look like?

00:51:52   What do you get rid of from the current iPad line to make an education focused iPad?

00:52:00   Just limit the margins.

00:52:02   [laughter]

00:52:04   Alright, but let's work in a world where you can't just...

00:52:08   Well, because as well, you can't just be like,

00:52:11   "Here's an iPad Pro, but now it's $200."

00:52:13   Like, this product has to have some limitations to it, right?

00:52:17   - No, totally. It's all about what compromises you pick.

00:52:20   I think these are pretty obvious, actually.

00:52:22   Like, no LTE option, no True Tone or the...

00:52:28   What is it? 120Hz is called, whatever it's called.

00:52:30   Oh man, what is that called?

00:52:33   Fast scrolling.

00:52:34   They gave it a name, didn't they?

00:52:37   Butter scroll.

00:52:38   Something display?

00:52:39   I don't know.

00:52:40   It makes my brain freak out so I turned it off.

00:52:41   I love it.

00:52:42   I love it.

00:52:43   And you can use older processors in these things.

00:52:47   You don't need...

00:52:48   What's in the iPad Pro now?

00:52:49   The A10?

00:52:50   ProMotion.

00:52:51   ProMotion.

00:52:52   ProMotion.

00:52:53   Do you think I saved people tweeting at us?

00:52:56   No.

00:52:57   Do you think I got it in time?

00:52:58   Nope.

00:52:59   They're tweeting.

00:53:00   And you can use older processors, right?

00:53:02   And less storage, like sort of the standard things.

00:53:05   You can have two speakers instead of the four speakers in the iPad Pro.

00:53:09   But it is a challenge.

00:53:10   We have it.

00:53:11   Rosemary found it.

00:53:12   The Bretford PowerSync cart, $40 for iPad and iPad mini.

00:53:17   Rosemary in the chat found it.

00:53:19   It's $3,000.

00:53:21   But it holds, it can hold 40 and charge 40 devices.

00:53:26   Rosemary saved the day.

00:53:28   There's two in there actually.

00:53:31   There's the Brettford PowerSync 20 and then the Brettford PowerSync 40.

00:53:36   Weirdly the Brettford PowerSync 20 costs two grand and then the 40 costs three grand.

00:53:42   So really you want the 40 you don't want the 20.

00:53:46   The old Mac versions of these carts had timers on them so you would charge the top row of

00:53:50   MacBooks and then it would charge the bottom row of MacBooks because it couldn't charge

00:53:55   them both at once.

00:53:56   And if you screwed it up...

00:53:57   Too much power.

00:53:58   much power. If you screwed it up, the kids like on the bottom road didn't get their computers

00:54:02   didn't get charged in time. They get to adjust the timer. Very exciting. And those things

00:54:06   are built like tanks. I had to replace the timer in one of them once and I thought I

00:54:10   was going to die. Like I was like on my back, like in like the student like teacher lounge

00:54:14   at the school and like my, my arms up above my heads, like trying to change his timer.

00:54:19   And like I dropped a wrench into some terrible words like in elementary school and it was

00:54:22   very exciting. Anyways, what are we talking about? Yes, get rid of all that stuff. But

00:54:28   I do think, I was joking about the margin, but that I think is why, like the most obvious

00:54:35   reason this thing doesn't exist. Apple doesn't think the expense is justifiable, that they

00:54:41   could sell enough of them to make the time and money to develop it and design it worth

00:54:46   it. But two, to sell this at a cheaper price and to put all the things that I want in it

00:54:50   just isn't compatible with what Apple wants to make per product. And I would

00:54:56   imagine that the margin on the EMAC was pretty good because they used a bunch of

00:55:01   old stuff in it and they had to design a case but you know the tech

00:55:06   stuff was all pretty well known. But something like this that's definitely

00:55:12   going to be expensive to develop and to design and to produce and Apple's going

00:55:17   to keep the margin there. And so I think ultimately that's why something like this is not in the cards.

00:55:22   And I got, you know, watch me be wrong about all of this, but I just don't see Apple

00:55:25   developing a new product from scratch and being able to sell it for 300 bucks or 200 bucks.

00:55:30   So why could this product then, you know, in theory, not just be the Jason Snell iOS laptop,

00:55:40   like it would have a keyboard built into it. Um, it still has all the safety and security of iOS,

00:55:47   right, of a Mac OS and whatever it is Apple's trying to do there. And also it'd have a bigger

00:55:52   battery in it most likely if it's in a kind of a laptop form factor you'd maybe have a

00:55:56   bit more space. Like isn't that just what this should be if they're gonna make something

00:56:01   like this?

00:56:02   It definitely could be. I mean I realised that after I wrote my blog post so I was like

00:56:06   "oh well this sort of defeats the whole thought experiment" but...

00:56:08   Shh don't worry about it.

00:56:11   It definitely...

00:56:12   You could still call it the same thing.

00:56:14   called the E-pad. It definitely could be, right? Like, there is a reason the notebook

00:56:19   form factor has done so well for so long. I still think, at least, and others will disagree

00:56:25   with me, that the notebook form factor is superior to an iPad plus a smart keyboard

00:56:30   in a lot of ways. It's not as flexible. That flexibility is not as important in schools,

00:56:35   right, because students are at desks and at tables. They're not like lounging on a couch

00:56:39   doing things on their iPad like the rest of us are.

00:56:41   So yeah, so maybe this is just a cheap notebook

00:56:46   that runs iOS instead of Mac OS.

00:56:48   That'd be a fascinating product.

00:56:50   You know, if that does come true,

00:56:51   I think consumers would want it.

00:56:53   So maybe it jumps into both categories.

00:56:55   But yeah, absolutely.

00:56:56   I think Snell's iBook thing he's talked about for so long

00:57:00   totally answers all the issues I've raised.

00:57:04   - All right, I have one last question for you on this.

00:57:06   And this is about everything, right?

00:57:08   all of this, the E-pad thought experiment stuff,

00:57:10   but also this event in general, right,

00:57:12   that Apple are doing, this education focused event.

00:57:15   Why even do this?

00:57:16   Like, what does Apple actually gain

00:57:19   for spending this much money, time, and effort

00:57:21   on putting their devices in schools?

00:57:23   Like, what is the reason you do this?

00:57:25   - I mean, education is a big market,

00:57:28   and schools do have money to spend,

00:57:30   and they spend a lot of money.

00:57:31   They don't spend it as often as consumers do, right?

00:57:33   Like, Macs and one-to-one deployments in schools,

00:57:37   A, they're often leased, so Apple makes revenue every year, and then every three or four years

00:57:41   they put a bunch of money down and start it over. They spend a lot of money on that hardware, and

00:57:46   I think the more cynical answer, and one that is just as true, is that if a student encounters an

00:57:53   Apple product in a school, they may be more likely to want an Apple product when they're out of

00:57:58   school. And that's icky and weird. It's how you get people in the top of the funnel.

00:58:04   It's how it works. It worked for me, right? Like, you know, I was introduced to the Mac in school

00:58:09   Yeah, and I fell in love with it and it changed my entire me too

00:58:13   Right like seeing an iMac in my school

00:58:16   My school had like three of them and it was my my entire world changed because it was this incredible thing

00:58:23   You know all the computers that I'd used before that were

00:58:26   You know, they were either the green text on the black screen type of thing or they were just junky pcs, right?

00:58:33   And then I saw this iMac and it was like, what is this?

00:58:37   And then it kind of sent me on this path.

00:58:39   So you can still do that, right?

00:58:41   Like you give kids iPads and they're like,

00:58:43   this is brilliant, and then they just want to use iPads

00:58:45   and Apple stuff for the rest of their life.

00:58:47   And the thing is, I don't think that's bad.

00:58:50   I think that's fine.

00:58:51   Like, I think that is a fine thing to do.

00:58:54   Like, it's okay.

00:58:55   Everybody needs technology now, right?

00:58:57   Like it's part of our lives.

00:58:58   So if you're one of these big technology companies,

00:59:01   Focusing to get people while they're young is a good thing. You know, yeah

00:59:04   There is this whole other argument about like the screen time problem that yeah

00:59:09   But believe and feel and right now but that's a conversation with having but I think that schools need technology

00:59:16   And they're not gonna buy from Apple looking about for somebody. So what from Apple's perspective? Why shouldn't it be Apple?

00:59:21   I do my completely unscientific

00:59:25   Like belief on this is that in five years time ten years time?

00:59:30   Maybe twenty we will look back and laugh that this was ever a question

00:59:34   like the biggest screens will just become so much more prevalent in our lives like it is like the idea of

00:59:41   Parents saying to the kids are you don't stop reading, you know, like you're reading books all the time

00:59:46   I believe it to be something like that

00:59:48   Like think of how much we use screens as adults now like it's only gonna continue

00:59:53   So I but anyway, I don't have kids. So, you know

00:59:56   Pinch you can borrow mine anytime you want

00:59:59   Sure, I would love to they're great. Do you think they are great?

01:00:02   I do think that sort of halo effect around education is less than it used to be like in the 90s

01:00:08   when like a

01:00:11   First used the Mac in like fifth grade or something

01:00:13   That was the only place I was gonna see a Mac right like no one owned them

01:00:18   That is a very good point. Like this could be an old way of thinking and I kind of think that I think it's still a

01:00:24   relevant thought but I think it's a less relevant than it used to be because

01:00:27   not that Apple's market share has exploded in Macs, but

01:00:31   With iPhones and iPads like there's not a kid who hasn't used an Apple product at some point, right?

01:00:36   Like it's I'd be hard-pressed to think about

01:00:39   That being true for many

01:00:42   students at least in like relatively well-to-do

01:00:45   areas

01:00:47   And this whole conversation is like bypassing all of that stuff, which we're just not going

01:00:52   to touch.

01:00:53   But students who use technology in some form or fashion have surely seen or used an Apple

01:00:59   product at some point.

01:01:00   So I think it's less important now than it used to be.

01:01:02   But yeah, like in the 90s, the only people buying Macs were schools and publishers.

01:01:06   And like, so unless your parents worked in publishing and bought an old Mac SE home,

01:01:09   you probably weren't going to see one.

01:01:12   At least it was a lot less likely than it is now.

01:01:15   And so I do think that's still an important factor to this, and I think it's something

01:01:19   that Apple thinks about.

01:01:21   And I think that education is just important to the company.

01:01:24   Lastly, I think that they think it's a really important thing in our society, and Apple

01:01:28   truly believes that their products make things better for their users.

01:01:33   And Apple really cares about education, so those two things go really nicely together.

01:01:36   So Apple wants to be there.

01:01:37   They want to serve students and teachers because they believe in what teachers do.

01:01:41   And they make money from it as a business, and they gain lifelong customers.

01:01:44   Like all that's gravy.

01:01:45   So I think it's an important thing for Apple to still pay attention to, even though it

01:01:49   is not as important overall as it used to be.

01:01:52   I mean, education really helped keep Apple afloat for a long time.

01:01:56   That's not true anymore, but I still think they view it as an important part of their

01:02:00   overall strategy.

01:02:01   And I'm hoping that next week shows that that is still true.

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01:03:34   So there was a report from Mark Gurman, which was published sentence by sentence a few days

01:03:42   ago, which was very weird.

01:03:45   In case you don't know what I'm talking about, there was a headline posted, right, on Bloomberg,

01:03:50   and the headline was "Apple is secretly developing its own screens for the first time."

01:03:54   And then there was like an opening paragraph and it said "developing?"

01:03:57   And then over the course of like an hour or something, the whole story got fleshed out.

01:04:01   And I have a theory about this.

01:04:04   If you remember a few weeks ago when Axios published that article about iOS 12 slowing

01:04:11   down, they published it like that.

01:04:14   They published the opening paragraph and then added to it.

01:04:18   Keep getting refresh, get those ad views, son.

01:04:21   Well, I just think more in the case of like, then Goemann's report was old.

01:04:27   So I expect they found this out or were confident enough to publish this and just started to

01:04:31   publish it piece by piece so they in case anybody else had it that's my theory like

01:04:36   they wanted to make sure that they were first and then everybody else could could be late

01:04:41   if they wanted to because I've never seen them publish a story like that before where

01:04:45   it's just like piece by piece and ended up being a large article very strange anyway

01:04:49   not important so the report is that Apple is currently developing and producing their

01:04:54   own micro LED displays this is a new technology it uses different light emitting compounds

01:05:00   to OLED and the reason that it is something that people are interested in is it can reduce

01:05:06   the overall component sizes which of course as Apple would be interested in can make devices

01:05:12   smaller because Apple loves to make devices smaller but it can also reduce power requirements

01:05:18   and the screens can be brighter on micro LED than on OLED. Micro LED is apparently extremely

01:05:26   difficult to manufacture and Apple's been working on it for a few years. It's been apparently

01:05:31   a very up and down situation but they finally got it to a place where they're happy with

01:05:35   it. Apple are not going to make these themselves, like they're not going to build their own

01:05:40   factory. They have their own plant in Santa Clara, California right now. There are about

01:05:44   300 engineers working on it according to Bloomberg. But they will specify the entire design for

01:05:51   these screens to a third party manufacturer in the same way that they do their processes.

01:05:56   Now the way that Apple currently works with screens, I'm not 100% sure how it works. So

01:06:03   in Mark Gurman's report, he says that Apple uses Samsung designed displays, which they make their

01:06:09   own calibration to afterwards. John Gruber posted an article on during Fireball saying that iPhone

01:06:14   10 screens are an Apple design, which have been years in the making and that they do this because

01:06:20   Apple, Samsung sorry, is the only company in the world that could produce the displays at scale

01:06:25   and they're not off the shelf, they're an Apple design and that because Samsung and Apple are arch

01:06:30   rivals they want to move away from this. I don't know how these are made like whether it is Apple

01:06:36   just buying a screen from Samsung and calibrating it or they tell Samsung how they want them made

01:06:41   and Samsung makes them but the point is that Apple can fully specify a design with this micro LED

01:06:48   stuff and then have it made in a way that they can't right now. Like Samsung

01:06:52   has to be involved in this in some way. Samsung is the only company that's able

01:06:56   to do it for them and that maybe this isn't the arrangement they want to be in.

01:07:00   Now, and there's nobody else that they can go to, right? As it turns out right

01:07:04   now, as you've seen with other phones like the Pixel 2, other OLEDs are not

01:07:09   as good as what Samsung can make. And that's why Samsung's screens in their

01:07:13   own phones are so good because they are the best right now at making them.

01:07:17   So let me, one of the things that's really interesting about this, so the micro LED stuff,

01:07:26   it requires this process called LED transfer.

01:07:30   That's one of the processes you need and it's something about like having all these, I think

01:07:34   you have like three LEDs, like a red, green and blue in one pixel and it's this really

01:07:39   complicated process to get these to work and it requires this thing called LED transfer.

01:07:44   Apple bought a company called Luxview in 2014 which owns the intellectual property for this

01:07:49   process. So it seems like if this is the only way you can do this that Apple will be the

01:07:55   only company that can make micro LED displays. So that's why they're doing all of this because

01:08:02   OLED they have to go to somebody else for but micro LED will be theirs and if micro

01:08:07   LED turns out to be better than we're in the retina era all over again, right?

01:08:12   Where like Apple can make these screens, however it is that they do it, their way

01:08:16   and nobody else can do it or everyone's super far behind until they can come up

01:08:20   with their own process to make something akin to micro LED.

01:08:22   So that's why they would want to do this, because Apple own the intellectual

01:08:27   property to make these displays and other people can't do it right now.

01:08:31   So then they would maybe go to like LG or Sharp or someone and say like,

01:08:36   this is how you do it, we're going to set up this factory with you, and then you're going to make

01:08:40   these displays for us. Which again, is something they do all over the place. Which is they do this

01:08:45   for like processors, right? All their processors are done this way. They set up a design, help

01:08:49   companies set up factories and do it. They did it with a glass, that glass factory, and then they

01:08:54   ended up not using their glass, the Sapphire one, and that company basically exploded, right? Yeah.

01:08:58   So this is something that Apple do, and it's something that they will do for these. Now,

01:09:03   According to Mark Gurman, these screen technologies are multiple years away.

01:09:08   Like this is multiple years away still. And if and when Apple do this, it will likely start with the

01:09:14   Apple Watch because it's a smaller display and they need less of them. And if it works, it will

01:09:18   move to the iPhone in maybe five or six years time, something like that. What do you think

01:09:22   about all this? I think it makes total sense. Apple is a company that wants to control as much

01:09:28   of its hardware stack as possible. Like they do the processors, they're doing the GPUs now on

01:09:33   iOS devices. They want to control as much as possible. I don't buy personally this like,

01:09:41   oh, it's Samsung. No, I don't either. I think that's baloney because like both Samsung and Apple

01:09:47   are probably like, it's like whatever, right? Like Samsung want to make the screens for Apple

01:09:53   because there's so many of them. Yes. Apple want to buy the screens from Samsung because they're

01:09:56   the best. Everyone just goes along with it. Like, I don't feel that like, oh, we have

01:10:01   to make these so we get away from Samsung. I think it's just Apple want to have something

01:10:05   that's better than everybody else. And if they believe that this technology is best,

01:10:10   then they will do that. Because then if it is that good, and they're the only ones that

01:10:14   can make it, that's another selling point, right?

01:10:16   Oh, yeah, I think the Apple versus Samsung like that exists in the consumer realm. But

01:10:20   we're talking about manufacturing a like with Samsung, at least that's a very different

01:10:25   part of their company. Samsung is enormous and I think they're operating on a different

01:10:31   level at that point. But I do think that there is something to be said for not it being Samsung

01:10:38   and that's icky, but just being beholden to someone else controlling things. If you think

01:10:46   years ago Apple bought up some giant percentage of all the NAND flash in the world for iPods

01:10:53   early iPhones. And they did that to help guarantee that they could get the parts they wanted.

01:11:00   And with the Samsung display, and you know, wherever the truth is between like the two

01:11:05   different ports, clearly at the very least Apple is tinkering with the Samsung display

01:11:10   to get exactly what they want. And I would imagine they would rather control the whole

01:11:15   thing. And again, that doesn't mean they're making their own screens directly. But they're,

01:11:19   you know, they're going in partnership with somebody, they're building a factory, they

01:11:21   They own the factory, they own the output of the factory,

01:11:23   and the company manufactures it.

01:11:24   So this makes tons of sense to me.

01:11:27   It sounds like this technology is better than OLED,

01:11:29   which honestly, you having the iPhone X now for,

01:11:33   what is it, coming up on five or six months?

01:11:35   I've been really happy with the display.

01:11:38   And to a point where I pick up an older iPhone

01:11:42   or another device, I'm like,

01:11:43   I kinda want OLED on everything.

01:11:45   It's really great.

01:11:47   And I think that it's clearly where Apple's gonna go

01:11:52   for the next few years.

01:11:54   But it seems like in this report

01:11:57   and other things I've read about micro LED

01:11:59   that it makes everything good about OLED,

01:12:01   it makes it even better.

01:12:02   And that's awesome.

01:12:04   So I'm excited to see what this looks like.

01:12:05   And I think starting with the Apple Watch

01:12:07   makes a ton of sense.

01:12:08   There was a detail in this report

01:12:09   that Apple, like in this Santa Clara place,

01:12:13   they're making these micro LED displays by hand.

01:12:15   like, like, like, it's like Etsy shop for displays, but they're using them in prototypes,

01:12:21   right? Like, so they are using prototype Apple Watch boards and stuff with these displays.

01:12:27   And like, I had never really thought about that. But it makes a ton of sense that if

01:12:30   if you were doing an R&D project on new hardware, why not use that in your prototypes for devices

01:12:35   because you can control in house right like we don't hear leaks, like hardware manufacturing

01:12:40   leaks the way we have in the past. Maybe this is one reason why because Apple is doing more

01:12:45   this in-house. And I totally believe it's happening. I totally believe that if they

01:12:49   can make this work, Apple would want to do this. Clearly they're spending a lot of money

01:12:54   and effort on this. And I think that they believe it'll pay off. And I agree. I think

01:12:57   it could be something that would set future phones apart from their rivals.

01:13:02   It is wild to think that they would own a potential screen technology. Like that feels

01:13:06   like something that someone, not one company should own, right? Not in a bad way, but like

01:13:10   Like it just feels like screen technology previously has kind of just been this thing

01:13:14   where screens are made in these certain ways.

01:13:17   And then like everyone can try and make the best one that they can, you know, like LCD

01:13:22   and LED and OLED and stuff.

01:13:25   And now Apple will potentially own this process for a while.

01:13:29   Like my expectation is, is like if these end up being that good, someone will just work

01:13:33   out another way to make them.

01:13:34   That like doesn't, isn't this specific process.

01:13:38   Apple have a head start because like this company, they bought this company four years

01:13:42   ago and they were doing it. Like they worked it out. So like that is a head start, right?

01:13:47   They've got a whole big thing. Like, you know, they've got a whole situation set up right

01:13:52   now where they're building these things. I think it's very interesting. It is more of

01:13:58   like a question for me of like, with the amount of money that Apple has, like it's still surprising

01:14:04   to me that they just don't set up their own factories that they own and just run it themselves.

01:14:07   I guess it's just that they don't want to deal with the hassle of doing that.

01:14:11   Right. Like so that they give it to these third party companies.

01:14:13   It is really funny that like they they do all this work.

01:14:16   They create these these prototypes and you build it.

01:14:18   Right. It just seems kind of funny to me.

01:14:20   Yeah. And if they're going to manufacture them in China, which in this climate they

01:14:24   may say they're going to do in the U.S. but say it's in China in particular, that's

01:14:27   just not Apple's strong suit. And there are companies there.

01:14:30   It's like they're this is what they do.

01:14:34   And you're talking about the Apple Watch.

01:14:36   that's one thing, but you know what the iPhone like that needs the scale of China manufacturing

01:14:40   they're not going to be making iPhone screens in California or Texas or somewhere you know they

01:14:44   made the trashcan Mac Pro in Texas and I guess there's still like one dude there making one

01:14:49   every few weeks but um this if it really goes as broadly as they seem to want it to then yeah the

01:14:56   only way forward is to to go to a Foxconn or a Sharp or somebody and say hey this is our you know

01:15:02   patented way of doing this and these are the metrics and you're going to start building

01:15:07   them and then we will buy 100% of the yield. So yeah, it's exciting. You know, I've been

01:15:11   so impressed with OLED and I just, it's exciting to think about what could be next.

01:15:15   Is that the show? That feels like the show, man. We did it.

01:15:18   All right. I don't, I don't have any more old Apple stories, so it seems like it's,

01:15:21   it's time to wind it down. Are you sure? I don't believe that. I don't believe that's the case.

01:15:26   Well, nothing, nothing's coming to mind. Okay.

01:15:29   I've been, I spent like two days making a YouTube video so I can't, it's a lot of

01:15:34   thought process went into this show and now I'm very tired.

01:15:37   youtube.com/512pixels.

01:15:38   That's right.

01:15:39   Smash that subscribe button.

01:15:41   The video will be up about the time the podcast goes up I think.

01:15:44   It's good one, I've seen it already because I'm like that.

01:15:46   Yeah.

01:15:47   It's good.

01:15:48   Yeah, because you're a 512 member and you get the newsletter.

01:15:49   Mm-hmm.

01:15:50   Mm-hmm.

01:15:51   So I did upload the other thing that I, okay.

01:15:53   Yeah, I noticed that.

01:15:54   If you want to find show notes for this week, and there are a bunch of show notes you should

01:15:57   look at this week like the Beatles iPod just click that one and buy a WDC ticket

01:16:02   do that first and then look at the Beatles iPod you can find all that stuff

01:16:05   in your podcast app of choice or on the web at relay.fm/connected/185

01:16:12   coming up on 200 man that's bananas you can get in touch with us there as well

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01:16:25   Twitter at V-T-G-V-I-T-I-C-C-I. You can tweet Myke, I-M-Y-K-E, and you can find me there

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01:16:39   and Ting, go check them out. And I guess until next time, Myke, say goodbye.

01:16:44   - Cheerio! - Adios.