180: Our True Tiny Head Form


00:00:00   I have a special intro today prepared for you.

00:00:02   If you're ready.

00:00:03   'Cause the day is Valentine's Day.

00:00:05   Whether or not you celebrate it or not,

00:00:06   or think it's a scam, which it totally is.

00:00:08   But I've prepared a little something to open the show.

00:00:10   - Okay.

00:00:11   - Myke, your beard flows from the sky to the ground,

00:00:16   wrapping your face, keeping you warm as your ink pens abound.

00:00:21   Federico, with your iPads and coffee,

00:00:25   supporting bakeries all over Rome.

00:00:28   I hear your dogs barking.

00:00:30   I think Sylvia is home.

00:00:31   Roses are indeed red.

00:00:34   Violets are somehow blue.

00:00:37   I'm really sorry.

00:00:38   This is the intro and you probably are too.

00:00:41   (upbeat music)

00:00:43   - You're a genius.

00:00:51   You're a genius.

00:00:52   - That is beautiful.

00:00:53   I feel like I wanna marry you.

00:00:54   Can you get a divorce and marry me instead?

00:00:57   Can you write my wedding vows? You need to do a bit of them in Romanian, so just as long

00:01:03   as you're good with that part.

00:01:04   It's fine. Everybody does vows on Google Translate. It's romantic anyway.

00:01:09   Stephen, I want to give you a tiny story and a little cautionary tale. So for about 100

00:01:18   episodes of The Pan Addict, every single episode I used to come up with a special name for

00:01:23   That became very very difficult over time. You are setting yourself up for something here.

00:01:29   I think you should continue to explore your creativity week after week, but be careful and make sure you're well prepared.

00:01:36   At some point I'll be back to the

00:01:39   "From Real AFM" this connected.

00:01:42   But it ain't today.

00:01:43   It's not today, but we do have a lot of stuff to talk about. We should thank the sponsors who made this episode possible

00:01:50   SaneBox, Anchor, and Zola. We have some follow-up and we are going to start in

00:01:56   the land of the tiny heads. This is not as new as we thought it was. Someone on

00:02:08   Twitter, and I'm sorry I looked for the tweet this morning couldn't find it so

00:02:12   please set my apologies, the New York Times has an illustration on their

00:02:16   website from 2015 that not only has a tiny head, it's a tiny head mime, I think.

00:02:23   Mime police officer. What's funny to me is last night me and Nadina are in bed and we're

00:02:30   just like reading on our phones or our iPads or whatever and she pokes me and she shows

00:02:34   me this image. She's like, "Ha, see?" So I don't know where this came out but this was

00:02:38   on the front page of Reddit yesterday so that's how it was been found and sent to us including

00:02:43   by my fiancé.

00:02:46   on our next stop is a link at the Economist talking about banned drugs in sports and the

00:02:55   illustration has some people with tiny heads including one guy right in the middle with

00:03:00   massive arms lifting some weights. So I don't know if having a tiny head leads you to drug

00:03:06   use or if drugs are the cause of the tiny head syndrome. It's very confusing to me which

00:03:13   comes first but it's troubling at least. The name now THS, tiny head syndrome, is that

00:03:19   a thing? I think so. Sure. Maybe. We then move on to a blog post by something called

00:03:27   Typeform. I'm not real familiar with Typeform but they have... At the very bottom of this

00:03:33   page is one of the most horrific tiny head images I've ever seen. Oh my goodness, tiny

00:03:39   than huge hands. Huge hands. With very troubling fingernails. That's really the most upsetting

00:03:47   part of this illustration. So that's also in the show notes. So thanks to Lexus for

00:03:51   sending that horrific image in. Yeah, that's burned in my mind forever. Up next we have

00:03:57   Snapchat, which used to be a thing. I don't know, they had good quarterly results, maybe

00:04:02   they're a thing again. Apparently they have a filter that looks very much like a photo

00:04:06   booth filter where you shrink your head. So I'm not sure this counts because it's not

00:04:10   an illustration. I think Chad is a little bit of a tiny head wannabe maybe, but I'll

00:04:15   give it to him.

00:04:18   This is a half point. Normally we would say this is a half point.

00:04:21   Yeah, it's a half point.

00:04:22   Yeah, it's a half point for Chad.

00:04:24   Yeah, he lost the round robin. But I have some news. We've, you know, it started a couple

00:04:31   weeks ago. Last week, I believe the episode title was Tiny Head Pandemic. It's everywhere.

00:04:38   And the three of us have come down with THS. We have an amazing illustration that's in

00:04:45   the show notes. It's the chapter art for this chapter if you're listening to it, and a podcast

00:04:49   client that supports that sort of thing. And it's on a t-shirt over at Cotton Bureau, which

00:04:54   you should go check out.

00:04:55   We decided if you can't beat them, join them.

00:04:59   So we have tiny heads now too.

00:05:03   Maybe it's not, you know, maybe I think my tweet was maybe it's a revolution and we're

00:05:07   joining in.

00:05:08   So these shirts are up on Cotton Bureau for the next couple weeks.

00:05:14   The artwork is just amazing.

00:05:16   They're done by Chris Rowland who did your awesome PodCon poster, right?

00:05:21   Yep.

00:05:22   incredible illustrator whose work I enjoy very much and when we decided that it was

00:05:29   time for us to embrace our true tiny head form, we went to Chris to ask him if he could

00:05:35   help depict our new permanent state. And this t-shirt, I will say, I mean I don't own it

00:05:43   yet, but from a design perspective, is my favorite t-shirt design that I have ever been

00:05:49   a part of. I absolutely adore this illustration of the three of us in our ultimate forms.

00:05:57   It's wonderful. I have pens in my pocket. Steven, he's very fancy. He's Mr. Work, business

00:06:02   Steven with his laptop. And ultimate Federico in a stripey t-shirt. It's just so good.

00:06:10   Kate pointed out that in our previous art Federico is also wearing that same stripe

00:06:14   shirt. I mean that's the level of detail here.

00:06:17   Yep. Federico only wears that.

00:06:18   - Well, only wears that striped shirt, that's why.

00:06:20   - Yeah, I don't wear anything else.

00:06:22   You sent us a draft of this, I think, over the weekend,

00:06:25   and I just started laughing.

00:06:28   It makes me so happy.

00:06:29   It looks really awesome on a shirt that we did a gray,

00:06:32   and then sort of a blue,

00:06:34   and then sort of a in-between blue and gray.

00:06:36   Like a slate-ish color.

00:06:38   It has a name that I can't think of.

00:06:39   - Indigo.

00:06:40   - Let's call it space gray. - Indigo.

00:06:41   - Space gray, that's what Apple would do.

00:06:43   - Yeah, it's just a version of space gray.

00:06:45   It doesn't look like any other space gray.

00:06:48   That's how he works.

00:06:49   - Yeah, and we should say this is a limited run,

00:06:53   so once these are gone, they are gone.

00:06:55   So if you're interested in one, I would jump on it.

00:06:59   - Yep, and Cotton Bureau, now they do

00:07:01   reduce shipping costs outside of the US.

00:07:04   So in the past, their shipping was pretty expensive,

00:07:07   but they now have flat rate cheap shipping.

00:07:09   So this is why we're going with Cotton Bureau,

00:07:11   because they've gotten some great deals there.

00:07:14   So no matter where you are in the world,

00:07:16   you can get your hands on one of these.

00:07:17   I'm extremely excited. Please go buy this t-shirt because trust me you will regret it

00:07:22   if you don't buy it. This is possibly the best t-shirt that has ever been created by

00:07:26   humans.

00:07:27   If you get one of these and you come say hi to WWDC, Myke and I can officially promise

00:07:32   that Steven will give you a high five.

00:07:35   That is true.

00:07:36   Make sure to get a t-shirt and demand a high five from Steven at WWDC if you come say hi.

00:07:41   I was nervous you were going to say a hug and I wasn't going to be you.

00:07:44   I was quite proud of Federico, he let you off there.

00:07:49   I appreciate that. I would not have agreed to that.

00:07:53   I know.

00:07:54   Alright, so that is the tiny head section of the show. It's a regular thing here on

00:08:00   this award-winning Apple podcast.

00:08:04   Did we win any awards? When?

00:08:07   Don't worry about details like that. I need to talk about an award-winning band from Italy

00:08:14   called The Seniors, who we uncovered last week,

00:08:16   we're on Apple Music, and I wanted to share

00:08:19   some of The Seniors mania that has been occurring

00:08:22   throughout the land with people bringing home pods

00:08:25   into their life.

00:08:26   So Ed Dale from Australia was the first person

00:08:30   to send a video to us of him playing music on his home pod.

00:08:35   I, to illustrate a fantastic sound effect thing

00:08:42   that the HomePod does, had a little video that I posted on Twitter with some wonderful

00:08:46   seniors music, and probably my favorite, and these will all be in the show notes, @herebefore_herebefore_on_Twitter

00:08:55   sent to us a hitherto unreleased HomePod ad. I will say no more, but you should go watch

00:09:01   that video because it is real good.

00:09:04   The best part of this situation that you both have manufactured on this show is that…

00:09:10   You brought it up! You did it! We didn't even know!

00:09:14   I may have edited two of your songs in last week's episode, but that was purely incidental.

00:09:20   You brought it up. And we also now have licensed this music as

00:09:24   our official outro music from Infra. Have you checked with Enjoy Record?

00:09:31   Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's all good. We're okay, don't worry about it.

00:09:35   I can't promise that I'm going to edit that in every week.

00:09:37   The best part of this situation is that the other seniors guys, they have no idea this

00:09:43   is going on because we don't talk too much anymore. I mean, they don't know what I do

00:09:48   exactly for a living, but they have no idea that on Twitter and on a podcast people are

00:09:54   sharing and talking about these songs. So it's quite funny.

00:09:57   Well, you know what happens with bands all the time? It's time for your reunion tour.

00:10:02   Yes.

00:10:03   Yes.

00:10:04   Yes.

00:10:05   Yeah. We're going to play a WWDC.

00:10:06   you see?

00:10:07   God, you could be the band. You could be the Bash band.

00:10:10   Don't even think about it. No. Each one of us, we live in a different city, you know.

00:10:17   Yeah, it's a typical band story. Yeah.

00:10:24   I wanted to just as well give a little piece of a follow-up on emoji reactions. So two

00:10:28   things on this. Rejections, as you say. We're talking about this with Jeremy last time.

00:10:34   Sarah Perez over at TechCrunch posted an article a couple of days ago where she said, "The

00:10:41   company hasn't changed its policy on Apple emoji usage in apps, nor its enforcement,

00:10:46   according to sources familiar with the App Store's review team processes.

00:10:50   The policy does seem to be inconsistently enforced at times."

00:10:53   So it seems like Apple haven't necessarily changed whatever their policy is.

00:10:58   So the policy that was is the policy that is now.

00:11:02   But it seems like, as usual, it's being applied strangely and Jeremy over on the Emojipedia

00:11:07   blog has been recording more issues of applications getting rejected, which is still happening,

00:11:15   and also applications that have been accepted that use emoji in places where other apps

00:11:19   have been rejected.

00:11:21   So this is, yeah, we've kind of come to the conclusion of this, another case of just inconsistent

00:11:28   poorly applied rules, I guess you would maybe call them,

00:11:33   over app review, which is, again,

00:11:35   just leading to people being upset.

00:11:37   - I have another theory.

00:11:39   Maybe there's someone in app review,

00:11:41   maybe a group of people, but my theory only works

00:11:44   if there's maybe one or two,

00:11:46   that something happened to them, you know?

00:11:48   An emoji did something to them at some point in the past,

00:11:51   and now they've worked their way into Apple,

00:11:54   worked their way into the App Store review team,

00:11:57   and is there like personal mission from God

00:12:00   to get rid of emoji in UI elements and apps, you know?

00:12:05   Maybe they hit a thumbs up when they meant

00:12:07   to hit a thumbs down and it ruined a relationship.

00:12:10   Maybe they sent a black cart instead of a red heart

00:12:12   and you know, caused Valentine's Day problems.

00:12:14   - Shows that they truly hate someone.

00:12:16   Maybe, maybe they're just a curmudgeon

00:12:18   who doesn't like emoji, like how you two,

00:12:21   or well, more you, Steven, hate my bitmoji.

00:12:24   - Why me? - You know?

00:12:25   Well. - I do hate bitmoji.

00:12:27   See, you could be, if you were in App Review, you would reject all of the Bitmoji related

00:12:33   applications, right?

00:12:34   I love Bitmoji.

00:12:35   Bitmoji is the true expression of me in stickers form now.

00:12:39   It's wonderful.

00:12:41   You would think though, I mean, what do you guys think about this?

00:12:44   If it really is just there's a person or a couple people who are inconsistent for some

00:12:48   reason, wouldn't Apple have a record of who reviews what?

00:12:52   Like you think this would be easily fixed, right?

00:12:55   If it is somebody just, maybe they misinterpret,

00:12:57   best case scenario, and I honestly believe

00:12:59   this is what's happening, if this is the case

00:13:01   that Sarah's reporting says,

00:13:03   Apple hasn't changed its policy,

00:13:05   that someone on the app review team

00:13:07   misread or misunderstood a rule, right?

00:13:11   And so they made decisions that were

00:13:14   out of that faulty judgment, right?

00:13:16   They made a mistake, and that mistake

00:13:18   got pushed onto some developers,

00:13:19   which is really crappy, but they're fixing it.

00:13:22   Wouldn't Apple be able to fix that relatively quickly?

00:13:24   And it happened in these two apps

00:13:26   that got reviewed in the same day,

00:13:28   but we went to this person, let's call him John,

00:13:31   and we said, John, no, no, this is fine.

00:13:34   It would be over, but it's still kind of a thing.

00:13:37   I wonder what that process looks like internally

00:13:40   on that team.

00:13:40   - Yeah, it's like I don't understand

00:13:44   why it can't be taken care of, right?

00:13:46   Or why could there not be a meeting in the morning

00:13:50   and they're just like, we just need to confirm

00:13:53   how emoji works. You know what I mean? I agree with you. It's like why? I don't understand

00:13:59   why this type of stuff can't be changed, which does lead me to believe that like there is

00:14:05   something going on and it's just being poorly applied. I don't get it. I don't understand

00:14:09   it.

00:14:10   Somebody called me a socialist because I argued, yeah, last week on the show I said, you know,

00:14:17   I don't get it why such a huge corporation like Apple cannot, you know, allow developers

00:14:22   use emoji like there would be some iconography, like a UI element. And somebody basically

00:14:30   along the lines of this is about copyright law, unless you're a socialist and you think

00:14:34   everything should be free and allowed to be used by everyone. I don't think that's my

00:14:39   argument. Yeah, you know, some people have thoughts. I don't think that's my argument.

00:14:43   I think my problem is that in a way, when I see developers using emoji to adorn their

00:14:54   UIs, I wonder if in a way that use of emoji is helping some developers who may not have

00:15:01   the resources to hire a designer and create icons to make prettier, nicer applications

00:15:09   then they would be otherwise without emoji.

00:15:11   And so I wonder why does the corporation with 200 and plus billions in the bank

00:15:17   go against the indie developers who's using a stock trend emoji in its application?

00:15:22   Or I wonder, it also maybe even helps with localization, right?

00:15:28   Like if you've got to have all these different strings,

00:15:30   and if your UI works in a way that emoji can explain something,

00:15:32   that's less translation you have to do too.

00:15:34   Like there's lots of good reasons for it.

00:15:36   You know, I'm not saying that let's abolish copyright law and allow everybody to use Apple's

00:15:42   emoji. That is not my argument. My argument is that on one side we have the huge corporation

00:15:48   and emoji and on the other we have developers making applications for the Apple platform.

00:15:53   It's not like these developers are taking the emoji and putting them on billboards in

00:15:58   the street. They are putting them in iPhone and iPad apps. And the fact that emoji on

00:16:04   on iOS are such high quality and people crave them and people want to use them, Apple should

00:16:09   be proud of that instead of going against those apps and those developers. That's my

00:16:14   argument. But yet, we still don't know either way.

00:16:18   Yeah. So. Alright, let's take a break. Today's show

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00:18:24   So HomePod, it is HomePod time, they have arrived, we all have them. Federico's was

00:18:29   lovingly brought for him from an undisclosed location through Europe and all the way over

00:18:34   into Italy, I want to get your first impressions on it.

00:18:38   Steven, what is your, like, what are your kind of overall feelings about HomePod?

00:18:44   Oh, you left off the article when you said it. That makes me sad.

00:18:48   Yeah, I know. It's when I did it. I said home, I would say about HomePod and not about the

00:18:52   HomePod. But in that instance, that's how fancy people talk, Myke. It felt right. I

00:18:57   was following the official marketing guidelines, you know.

00:19:01   of Mind Virus. I don't think my thoughts are particularly unique. It does sound good.

00:19:11   It has a very strong philosophy about how things should sound. There's a section on

00:19:19   yesterday's episode of query that Serenity talks about this as well. The HomePod has

00:19:24   an opinion about how your music should sound. And for the most part, the types of music

00:19:28   I listen to at least, it sounds really good.

00:19:31   But there are certain circumstances where the processing

00:19:34   that it does is kind of weird, where like things

00:19:37   that you think should go to the tweeters go to the sub

00:19:39   and it gets muddy or weird or whatever.

00:19:42   But I like it as a speaker, I like the way that it sounds.

00:19:45   Again, for the type of music I enjoy.

00:19:48   The Siri stuff's not great, but we can get into that.

00:19:51   I did pin it against the iPod Hi-Fi

00:19:55   because I like to make as relevant as content

00:19:58   as I can for my YouTube channel.

00:20:00   - You're the person, right?

00:20:01   Like that is what I expected from you.

00:20:03   If you would have given me any other type of video,

00:20:05   I think I would have been upset.

00:20:07   - So I did that.

00:20:08   So you can go see how it compares

00:20:10   to the 12 year old iPod Hi-Fi.

00:20:15   I totally forgotten the iPod Hi-Fi was so close

00:20:17   to the original iPhone launch.

00:20:18   It feels like an eternity before the iPhone,

00:20:20   but it really wasn't.

00:20:21   And the HomePod just blows it away.

00:20:24   I mean, it's a lot newer, obviously, and a lot smarter.

00:20:27   and much smaller which is nice too. I don't think people realize how big the iPod Hi-Fi is until you

00:20:31   see a picture with an iPod on top of it. It's massive. It's massive. But it was fun to compare

00:20:38   the two. You know it's always an experience to publish something on YouTube with a mistake in it

00:20:45   and then get called out by the comments which is fun. I complained that the power cable was not

00:20:50   removable but the news broke after I published it that it is removable. It's not removable though

00:20:55   really like you can yank it out. It is removable it is not replaceable like

00:21:01   it's like saying you know the the front cover like all that fun that's removable

00:21:06   too if you remove it. Yeah it's not like a two prong or three prong like thing

00:21:12   that just plugs into it so I stand by my complaint that if you damage that cord

00:21:16   you're in trouble and Apple will replace the cord for $29 but if you damage the

00:21:22   HomePod itself it's basically you just got to buy a new one as expensive as the

00:21:25   damage repair is. So most of the comments are about that despite me pinning a

00:21:30   comment saying it and having it in the description people just don't read.

00:21:34   That's pleasant. So yeah I think that's how I feel about it. It's a good

00:21:39   speaker I use Apple music I like I like Apple music so it fits in with me in

00:21:43   that regard but it's not as smart as the Amazon Echo is. What do you think? Yeah so

00:21:50   So, I like HomePod. Oh no, I cannot do this. I wanted to do a full sentence without... I

00:21:57   cannot bring myself to this. So I like it. I got it a couple of days ago. And I should

00:22:04   say that I still haven't tried the high volume like anything above 40%. Because my dogs are

00:22:15   easily scared and you know by like loud bass and just high volume in general and I still didn't have

00:22:23   a good moment to just sit by myself and listen to loud music. So for what I've listened to so far at

00:22:29   like 30 to 40 percent I think it's totally fine it sounds really good. I don't think it's mind-blowing

00:22:37   at this kind of volume. I don't think it's room filling in the way that people make it out to

00:22:45   be but I think it also highly depends on the kind of configuration that you have.

00:22:50   I have a really small kitchen and living room space it's a really small room we

00:22:55   live in a small apartment I don't have like the kind of front room that you

00:22:59   have Myke it's really like half of that I think so I'm not able to appreciate

00:23:07   how room feeling it sounds because there's not enough room to feel

00:23:12   basically, is my problem. So right now it's sitting against a wall behind my TV, because

00:23:20   that's the only place that I have. I wanted to put it where the Echo used to be, but it's

00:23:25   too wide for that space, because it's also the space where my modem is, so there's not

00:23:33   enough room there. I think it sounds okay. I still haven't tried the loud volume thing.

00:23:41   I love the way that Siri talks. I think it's really, you know, it's a really nice voice,

00:23:47   if that makes sense. And the animation on top is fine, even though I don't always see the animation,

00:23:55   because again, it's behind the TV, so I only see the LEDs light up when I'm like washing the dishes

00:24:03   and I turn and I talk to Siri, then I see the HomePod. I think it's fine. The only surprise

00:24:10   for me was how heavy it is. It is a heavier, it's hefty, I was not expecting it to be,

00:24:18   you know, it's compact, it's dense. But overall as basically everybody has said, this is what

00:24:26   I was expecting and it's nice, it integrates nicely with iOS and the iPhone. So I'm, you

00:24:32   know, I replaced the Echo with it, we'll see how it goes. But, you know, it's going well

00:24:36   so far, even though I'm not like, you know, screaming in surprise, oh my god, this is

00:24:43   the way that music sounds. Because, as I said, my room is small, and I still haven't tried

00:24:49   high volumes.

00:24:50   No, I was it gets very, very loud. I turned it 200% in my studio, which is 200 square

00:24:57   feet. And it, it's too loud. They need to they need to bring that in a little bit, I

00:25:05   think.

00:25:06   Yeah, I mean I was I was talking about this an upgrade like I would love to have an ability to cap it

00:25:12   So I have more range to turn it up and down

00:25:15   Because I'm really keeping it like in the lower

00:25:17   30% of the volume and I don't really need it to go any more than that

00:25:21   So I would like to be able to like move it more freely than I currently can

00:25:25   I would say that I am more impressed by the audio than you two

00:25:30   I feel like there's like a sliding scale between us. Like I love it

00:25:34   I think the audio sounds amazing.

00:25:37   And again, I will say, I think I said this last week,

00:25:40   I don't have a good enough understanding

00:25:42   for how speaker technology works,

00:25:44   nor could I really, I mean, like Steven,

00:25:46   you were talking about the tweeters and stuff.

00:25:48   I couldn't even, or it gets muddy, right?

00:25:51   Like you used that phrase.

00:25:52   I don't know, I can't conceive what that means to speakers.

00:25:55   I don't think I have that thing

00:25:58   where I can pick out all of the different ways

00:26:01   that something sounds, right?

00:26:03   I don't think I have that, but what I do know is that this is the best speaker that I've

00:26:08   ever owned and I love the way that music sounds on it. I love the way that the spatial stuff

00:26:14   works. Like I was listening to Hamilton and the lyrics, like the vocals, they're like

00:26:20   closer to me than the rest of the music. And I love the way it makes that sound space.

00:26:25   And for me, like it totally does fill the room and I've been really impressed with that.

00:26:32   We have it located nicely in the middle of the room, like it's right in the center of

00:26:36   the room, and it does a great job of filling everything.

00:26:39   I've been really happy with it, and I find the microphones to be very good, right?

00:26:45   It picks that sort of stuff up very well.

00:26:49   The fact that it hears any, it can just hear literally anybody say the phrase has been

00:26:56   difficult, especially when trying to watch HomePod review videos.

00:27:00   was a real a real mess. Yeah I had my video I said a lot of people's

00:27:06   home pods off of my video. I ran into it when I was editing the video and

00:27:16   actually like unplugged the thing. It didn't cross my mind that right this

00:27:21   isn't like a hoy telephone on my iPhone where it's been trained because this is

00:27:26   and we're getting into the software even though very little of it is designed as

00:27:30   if anyone lives with any other human being ever, it is designed to listen to anyone who

00:27:37   talks to it. And sorry about that. It was too late to do anything about it.

00:27:44   But I mean, this is the same if like people do Amazon Echo videos or whatever, but like

00:27:48   I watched an Amazon Echo video in a while. So, you know, this is what it is. What do

00:27:55   you guys think about the way that the HomePod integrates with the Home app? It feels like

00:28:01   it's kind of just nothing.

00:28:05   Can I go ahead, Stephen?

00:28:07   Yes.

00:28:09   I think it's, I don't want to say a mess, but I think Apple should really rethink the

00:28:15   way that the Home app is designed and make the HomePod a special area or kind of widget

00:28:23   in the home app, because right now my main problem with the home app on iOS is the fact

00:28:29   that it's so easy to confuse things. Like everything looks the same. Different types

00:28:34   of accessories look like everything is a square or a rectangle. And the home pod is just another

00:28:40   rectangle. It doesn't have any special controls. It's not like a mini player, as I would have

00:28:47   expected. It's just a square and you tap it and you play and pause music. And the main

00:28:53   problem with the home app is that to an extent I feel like it was sort of designed when Apple

00:29:00   wanted to demo 3D Touch and tell people look how fancy we can be with all these interactions

00:29:06   and these long presses and you navigate into this setting screen and you have multiple

00:29:12   layers of the interface. But in practice, and especially now that I'm adding more and

00:29:16   more HomeKit stuff to my devices, I can see why people think it's confusing.

00:29:22   Because everything looks the same, and every control that you want to have available at

00:29:27   your fingertips requires a long press or a 3D touch, and you need to go into this nested

00:29:34   detail views.

00:29:36   And the same is true for the HomePod.

00:29:37   Like, for example, I was looking for the personal request setting.

00:29:41   I was like, okay, maybe I need to tap, I need to 3D touch on the HomePod square and I go

00:29:47   into the details because that's how settings work for other HomeKit devices.

00:29:53   I can go in there and see the settings and I will find personal request.

00:29:58   But no, it's not there.

00:30:00   You need to tap like a narrow icon and then you need to tap your profile picture and you

00:30:05   will find the personal request option for the HomePod.

00:30:08   Like it's totally unintuitive.

00:30:10   And I think the bigger picture here is that I think Apple should redesign the Home app.

00:30:14   And for the HomePod, which is a special device because it's made by Apple, there should be

00:30:18   an interactive kind of control or widget in the Home app that sort of mimics what you

00:30:24   would see in Control Center, which is another problem, the way that you need to navigate

00:30:29   multiple audio output devices in Control Center.

00:30:33   But I would say that I think it's confusing the way that it works right now.

00:30:37   there should be a better new interface

00:30:42   that makes each device unique.

00:30:45   Like a motion sensor and light switch and the HomePod

00:30:50   all look the same right now in the Home app.

00:30:52   And I don't think that is good design.

00:30:54   - You mentioned the personal requests.

00:30:56   Are you, like this is the thing where,

00:30:58   it's named so peculiarly anyway.

00:31:01   This is the thing where you can have your messages,

00:31:03   reminders and notes, definitely not calendar.

00:31:06   What are you crazy?

00:31:07   why would you want calendar integration? Definitely don't have that. But the three things that

00:31:11   it does do, Apple warns you when you're setting it up, right, as we were talking about last

00:31:16   week because this, you may, basically anyone can read your messages if your phone is on

00:31:24   the same WiFi network. Are you going to leave that on?

00:31:27   I have left it on because for two reasons. One of them which, you know, I don't have

00:31:33   secrets. I talk, I don't talk to a lot of people on iMessage. I basically talk to you guys, my

00:31:39   parents and my girlfriend and like if somebody, it's extremely rare that someone is home and I'm

00:31:48   not. But if one of my friends would come to my house and talk to my HomePod, they would have to

00:31:56   worry about my reaction, not, you know, like, I wouldn't allow people to talk to the HomePod.

00:32:02   Also, the fact that I live in Italy, like, it's not normal for my friends to come over

00:32:08   and start talking in English to my HomePod. And finally, Sylvia couldn't be bothered to interact

00:32:14   with the HomePod and Siri. Like, she doesn't care, she doesn't like it, she thinks I'm crazy with all

00:32:18   these assistants and these voice controls. So I'm in a unique position that all the people I care

00:32:24   about do not talk in English and do not care about the technology that I use.

00:32:28   So a personal request is not a problem for me.

00:32:33   I've left it on because I turned it on and I mostly forgot about it because

00:32:41   I'm not saying that that's the right thing for everyone to do,

00:32:45   but like the home pod doesn't alert you when you have a message. Right.

00:32:50   So really is the case of somebody coming into my house and asking for the home

00:32:55   pod to read my messages? Because I kind of don't care if Adina could do it.

00:32:59   Like, I understand.

00:33:01   Like, I really get it. Like, trust me, I 100 percent get it.

00:33:05   Like, if that's not a thing that you want in your home with your family or

00:33:08   whomever, for like whatever reason, like it doesn't have to be a bad thing.

00:33:11   Just everyone's different. Right.

00:33:13   Like in the same way that like some people share their passcodes and stuff like

00:33:16   that. And like some people are private, some people are not private.

00:33:19   like it's your own personal circumstances.

00:33:21   But for me, it's not something that I worry about,

00:33:24   but it's also not something that I really think I'm ever going to use,

00:33:27   because like I have devices surrounding me at all times,

00:33:32   which have my notifications on them.

00:33:35   So I don't think I'm really going to use this feature, but it's there.

00:33:38   And I think that Apple should do something to try and make it authenticated

00:33:42   in some at least minimal way by voice. Right.

00:33:44   So trying to recognize different voices.

00:33:46   I think it's an oversight, but it's fine that it...

00:33:51   I mean, honestly, my biggest annoyance is the fact that it can't even look at my calendar.

00:33:57   That is mind-boggling to me.

00:33:58   I'm more annoyed about that than I am the personal requests thing.

00:34:01   I want to say, though, because I think it sounded like I was sort of down on the Home

00:34:06   Pod.

00:34:08   I think I absolutely love the fact that I have an echo with Siri, in the sense that

00:34:15   I have this Siri device that it's in my living room/kitchen. Even though I haven't been able

00:34:23   to fully absorb the sound, especially because of the dogs, because they're really scared

00:34:28   by loud music, I love the fact that I can control HomeKit devices, like native devices

00:34:36   that I have, accessories that I have installed in my house and I can also control on iOS.

00:34:42   the fact that I can easily ask to play music from my Apple Music account. I absolutely

00:34:51   love the fact that Siri is now like this presence in my living room, but I'm keeping an asterisk

00:34:59   on sound quality about, you know, for when I will be able to, maybe tonight, I don't

00:35:04   know, when I will be able to test the actual full volume. I wanted to specify that because,

00:35:09   you know, then it's gonna become a meme, that Federico is against the HomePod.

00:35:15   I'm just gonna say, like I recommend, don't test the full volume at night.

00:35:19   That's bad time.

00:35:20   Oh, you mean for the neighbors?

00:35:21   I think.

00:35:22   Ah, there's a...

00:35:23   Federico is really loud.

00:35:27   I would only do it for like 10 seconds, not like...

00:35:30   Okay, but...

00:35:31   Two hours.

00:35:32   I mean, go for it, right?

00:35:35   Even test it for 10 seconds.

00:35:36   Your neighbors are gonna notice.

00:35:37   It's just, it's all I will, like, people will gonna know.

00:35:40   - There's a dispute too.

00:35:41   - Give it a go. - There's a dispute too

00:35:42   with the guy downstairs anyway,

00:35:44   so it's good to establish, you know,

00:35:46   who's got the loudest speakers.

00:35:48   - Who's loudest?

00:35:49   (both laughing)

00:35:51   So let's talk about Siri, right?

00:35:53   I mean, I'll say just super quick,

00:35:54   like, 'cause it's not really worth going into,

00:35:56   the HomeKit stuff that I've used works.

00:35:59   I can tell my lights on and off, like, it works, right?

00:36:02   Same way that it works with my phone, it's fine.

00:36:04   Let's talk about Siri.

00:36:05   So research firm Loop Ventures, this is Gene Munster's firm.

00:36:10   They tested some responses across all smart speakers.

00:36:14   So like they got a Cortana speaker

00:36:17   that was in like a home and common thing.

00:36:19   They have an Amazon Echo, Google Home and the HomePod.

00:36:23   They tested it in a bunch of categories.

00:36:25   I'll put links in the show notes so you can go and read it.

00:36:27   But the top line is that Google Home

00:36:29   came out top in everything.

00:36:32   HomePod only did better than last place in two categories.

00:36:37   One of them called local, which is for example,

00:36:40   where can I find a cup of coffee?

00:36:41   So like asking about like local services

00:36:45   and another is commerce.

00:36:47   So they use an example of like, help me buy some shoes.

00:36:50   I don't really know what the HomePod can do in this area,

00:36:52   but apparently it did a good job.

00:36:54   Overall, Siri on the HomePod understood 99.4% of queries,

00:37:00   but only answered 52% of them correctly.

00:37:04   This puts Siri at the bottom overall

00:37:06   for AI assistant performance.

00:37:09   What do we think of that?

00:37:10   It doesn't look good.

00:37:11   I mean, I know that it, in theory, Apple would say, right,

00:37:16   that like it doesn't,

00:37:18   it doesn't, HomePod doesn't support all of the things

00:37:23   that these other services support, right?

00:37:25   Which is why it couldn't answer the questions.

00:37:28   But I don't think that that is an excuse though, right?

00:37:31   Like I feel like it probably should do this.

00:37:34   - There's two takeaways from this I think.

00:37:36   One is that Google is obviously ahead of everybody here.

00:37:40   - Yep, which you would expect I think

00:37:44   for like take a question, answer a question.

00:37:47   Google should always be ahead.

00:37:49   - The fact that the HomePod and Siri are behind

00:37:53   because they do not compete in some domains

00:37:57   is not an excuse, that's exactly the problem,

00:38:01   that circuit should be expanded to support more domains.

00:38:05   And it's been what, like two years of circuit

00:38:08   and we're still limited to like six or seven domains,

00:38:12   maybe more, but there's a couple that I would,

00:38:14   I would really be surprised if more than a million people

00:38:18   use some of the more specific circuit domains

00:38:21   on a monthly basis.

00:38:23   So I think the fact that the HomePod does pretty good

00:38:27   with Siri in the domains where it can compete

00:38:30   and it cannot compete in others,

00:38:33   that's exactly the problem.

00:38:35   Like Siri is mostly okay when it works.

00:38:39   And it means that the Google intelligence is still ahead

00:38:43   and the domains must be expanded.

00:38:45   So I wonder.

00:38:47   - Well, let's talk about SiriKit not working, right?

00:38:52   I had not a good experience trying to use even the limited set of SiriKit functionality

00:39:01   available on the HomePod.

00:39:04   I tried to add things to Dodoist and things.

00:39:08   It couldn't even understand me asking.

00:39:11   What I think the problem is, is I may not have been asking in the exact wording that

00:39:17   Siri expects, but I also don't think that I should have to have exact wording, really.

00:39:24   I tried to send a message of airmail. It was like a long process of going through all the

00:39:30   different Federico Vaticces that were in my contacts, as Siri likes to call you. I don't

00:39:36   know if you're aware of that Federico, but Siri likes to call you Federico Vaticce. It

00:39:42   It then resulted in "there's a problem with this app" was what I got at the end of it

00:39:47   after going through the whole process.

00:39:49   Then I tried to use WhatsApp and WhatsApp gave me an error three times in a row.

00:39:54   The associated iOS, well the HomePod did while trying to use WhatsApp, the associated iOS

00:39:59   device must connect to the network first.

00:40:01   Like it was 100% connected to the network.

00:40:04   So I think that SiriKit, even in its limited function, is not working very well at all

00:40:09   on the HomePod.

00:40:10   Would you agree Federico?

00:40:11   I can tell you that it doesn't work for me at all because I'm on the 11.3 beta and every single circuit request to third-party apps, it says that I need an app installed on my phone.

00:40:27   And I do have the app installed on my phone, but it doesn't work. And so I asked on Twitter, a bunch of people told me, "Yeah, I see the same issue. I'm also on 11.3 beta. It works fine on other devices on 11.2.5."

00:40:40   so I yeah it doesn't work for me at all I hope that in the future this will be

00:40:48   resolved and that it will not be a thing like if you have a beta on your iPhone

00:40:51   then the HomePod will be limited because that will be annoying yeah I would

00:40:56   really like to see them do a better job with this just in general like the Siri

00:41:01   kit stuff was underwhelming to begin with just based upon what it can

00:41:05   actually support especially when you enter situations like now that you have

00:41:09   HomePod, if you ever say the "Hello to Siri" phrase, if it's a SiriKit function

00:41:17   that it can't process, the HomePod will take the request because it always seems

00:41:23   to dominate the trigger word, right? Like it takes all requests. And if you say

00:41:27   "ask to order a Lyft or an Uber or something" it will just tell you "I can't

00:41:32   do that" and then that's the end of your experience, which I think is pretty bad.

00:41:36   so like it already kind of screwed up there initially and then it just kind of

00:41:42   got a little bit just just a bit worse by not even doing a good job of what it

00:41:47   can support so yeah not not great overall yeah that's something that

00:41:52   Amazon does really well like if you ask the echo something and it can't do it or

00:41:57   it needs to show you something it says oh hey open the app and it's there but

00:42:01   But Apple, guys, breaking news,

00:42:04   Apple owns both the HomePod and the iPhone tech.

00:42:07   Like, it's the same group of people.

00:42:10   They could service that stuff on the lock screen.

00:42:12   Like, there's so much more they could do.

00:42:14   The HomePod is really well integrated with Apple Music,

00:42:17   but it feels like an island when it comes

00:42:19   to everything else.

00:42:20   And that's just really, really frustrating

00:42:22   from a company that says that its strength

00:42:25   is like hardware, software, and services

00:42:27   all working together.

00:42:29   That's just not, this is not true in this case.

00:42:30   I think there should just be like SiriKit in iCloud.

00:42:34   There should be like an API for developers

00:42:36   who have web services to integrate with Siri.

00:42:40   - But this is the problem.

00:42:41   This is the problem with the privacy stuff.

00:42:43   This is the privacy angle that Apple going down

00:42:46   is restricting them here, right?

00:42:47   Because they're doing it all on device,

00:42:49   if it's not gonna work on device,

00:42:50   it's not gonna work. - What are they doing

00:42:51   on device?

00:42:52   Because there must be a way,

00:42:54   the same way that they do CloudKit, for example.

00:42:59   Well, but then why haven't they? I mean, I agree with you, right? Like, it makes sense,

00:43:03   but like surely some Siri kit is not working in the cloud because otherwise it would be

00:43:07   able to order a lift for me, right?

00:43:08   I think a lot of people are using, not you, but this is an argument that I see on Twitter.

00:43:14   A lot of people use privacy as an excuse for, I don't want to say technical incompetence,

00:43:19   but lack of...

00:43:22   You know what though? But that's a good thing though, isn't it? Like me saying, oh, it's

00:43:25   because of privacy covers up some other issues.

00:43:28   I did just think actually stuff like ordering a ride sharing might need a screen

00:43:32   or like Apple's designed it to need a screen.

00:43:35   And that's the reason that HomePod can support it.

00:43:36   But I do wonder, which is weird because Amazon can do it without a screen.

00:43:40   Like it's right.

00:43:41   People are doing this.

00:43:42   It's possible to do.

00:43:43   I mean, like Apple's decided implementation, which again, they could change,

00:43:47   but they they haven't, especially when you would assume that when they created

00:43:52   the Siri kit for ride sharing, they knew that the home public's going to be coming. So it

00:43:58   is all very confusing. Can I talk about timers for a minute? Just for one minute?

00:44:03   Mm-hmm. Please.

00:44:04   You can set a one-minute timer on it. Because I've mentioned timers a bunch, like the fact

00:44:08   that you can't set timers, and people keep trying to send me workarounds for it. So let

00:44:12   me just explain my situation. I set timers when I cook. I set multiple timers when I

00:44:16   cook because I cook meals that have multiple parts to them, right? You've got the potatoes

00:44:21   going, you've got steak going, whatever, you're making a gravy, you need timers. And that's

00:44:27   how I like to cook, I have timers. And I ask my echo for these timers. And I like multiple

00:44:32   timers with names. So I can say like, 10 minute potato timer, 3 minute steak timer, right?

00:44:39   Alarms don't work for me. People said, "Oh, why don't you just set alarms?" And the home

00:44:42   app can set alarms, because I want to be able to check how long I have left on a timer,

00:44:47   which you can't do for an alarm, right? So there are times where I was like, "How long

00:44:50   is left on this so I know whether I should start something else. Alarms don't work that

00:44:54   way. And I don't want an app, any app, whether it's the home app or the clock app, to be

00:45:00   filling up with endless entries that just say potatoes and rice on them. Like I just

00:45:04   don't want that because that is a bad workaround for something that is a very basic task that

00:45:10   Apple's competitors seem to have no issue with. Like it doesn't seem very difficult

00:45:15   to be able to set multiple timers and then to also name them.

00:45:18   Like I was complaining about the Amazon Echo when it didn't have nameable timers

00:45:23   for a long time because Google did.

00:45:25   And now the Amazon Echo has it.

00:45:27   I really think this should have just been this should just be something that iOS supports.

00:45:31   Your timer is done, Myke.

00:45:33   Thank you. Was that an actual timer?

00:45:35   Yes.

00:45:35   So there you go. I took my minute and that's that.

00:45:38   I want to ask you both about damage to wooden services.

00:45:44   - Services, surfaces.

00:45:46   - Wooden web services.

00:45:48   - Surfaces.

00:45:50   Damage to wooden web services.

00:45:52   I can't talk, somebody else do this, I'm done, I'm leaving.

00:45:54   - So there's a paragraph in the Wirecutter review

00:45:57   of the HomePod that this reviewer,

00:46:01   and it turns out a lot of the people are discovering it too,

00:46:03   that the HomePod will leave a ring

00:46:06   on some wooden surfaces.

00:46:08   So in my office, the desk that it's on

00:46:11   is like untreated pine, so there's no stain to it.

00:46:14   It's just raw wood.

00:46:15   It has not stained that, but our friend John

00:46:18   at Max Stories has stains on a piece of furniture

00:46:21   that is coated somehow.

00:46:23   So it's not great.

00:46:26   Apple touted that they tested this thing

00:46:29   in a bunch of employees' houses,

00:46:30   which is a thing we're just gonna accept

00:46:33   as normal and fine.

00:46:35   But this didn't get caught,

00:46:37   and it really sort of blows my mind.

00:46:41   This feels like the perfect example of many recent Apple PR

00:46:47   debacles in the sense that they must have known

00:46:51   that on some type of wooden surface,

00:46:54   it will leave the silicone, the material would leave,

00:46:58   you know, the kind of ring sign.

00:47:01   But they just didn't tell people beforehand.

00:47:03   They waited until somebody caught it.

00:47:07   And because this device has been in Apple employees' homes

00:47:11   for like couple of years, at least.

00:47:13   Let's say just one year though.

00:47:15   And I mean, what, nobody has a brown or black or gray

00:47:20   piece of wooden furniture?

00:47:22   I mean, I would strongly doubt that, you know,

00:47:25   none of the Apple employees go to Ikea

00:47:27   and pick up one of those, you know,

00:47:29   dark gray cabinets that everybody has.

00:47:32   But rather than telling people, you know,

00:47:35   the little instruction manual, like, "Look, it's silicon!" And it might leave a ring on your,

00:47:41   you know, on your furniture. And I assume that what's happening is the vibrations are leaving,

00:47:46   is what's leaving the mark, right? Whatever the reason, because it's happening to a bunch of

00:47:48   people. It's happening to me in Italy, it's happening to John in Chicago, it's happening to the

00:47:52   wire cutter person, whatever they live. So it's not like a single isolated case in Rome,

00:47:59   Italy or in Chicago, United States. Like, it's a thing. So just tell people, just put

00:48:06   a notice in the little instruction manual. Do not wait. Like, it's okay. I will put a

00:48:11   coaster below it. It's fine. But tell me, do not wait until you get caught.

00:48:16   Yeah, tell me so I can do it, right? Like, it's fine.

00:48:20   I understand that placing objects on furniture may leave, you know, that kind of sign. But

00:48:27   tell me beforehand, I'm giving you $349, you can put a little sentence in your instruction

00:48:33   manual, nobody would be upset. Instead, you make it a thing by not being proactive. And

00:48:41   that's, I see a parallel there with the battery stuff and with all the other problems that

00:48:47   we've seen with Apple PR, especially in the past year. Do not wait until some publication

00:48:53   discovers this problem. It only takes a few days anyway, and then you gotta spin the narrative

00:48:59   back in your control. That seems counterproductive to me.

00:49:03   I agree with everything you just said. I don't have it, it's on a white surface for me, but

00:49:08   I did have it on a war nut TV cabinet, and I would have been really mad if it would have

00:49:13   left a mark on that, because I really liked that piece of furniture. But it's silly. You've

00:49:20   You've got to assume that they did know about it, and if they didn't, then that's not enough

00:49:24   testing of a device that you've been in development for six years, right?

00:49:27   Like it's like, come on, Apple make this stuff.

00:49:32   For years they've made this stuff.

00:49:34   Like things that go on other surfaces.

00:49:36   I don't know, it seems silly, it's really silly, because then it becomes a big story,

00:49:42   right?

00:49:43   Then it becomes a big thing, because it's Apple.

00:49:45   And if you can, now there's going to be, right, you're going to go on Facebook and there's

00:49:49   could be a bunch of articles that are like,

00:49:51   "The big four in the HomePod," right?

00:49:54   Like, "The thing Apple doesn't want you to know.

00:49:57   Cover up, like silicone destroys child."

00:50:00   Like, it's gonna, you know, it's gonna be everywhere now,

00:50:03   and it's like, I don't understand your PR strategy

00:50:06   if you let this stuff happen to you.

00:50:07   - Anyway. - So there we go.

00:50:11   - Yeah, I do wonder how it happened.

00:50:15   There's a funny tweet saying that none of Apple's

00:50:17   press release photos have the HomePod on a wood surface,

00:50:19   which just cracks me up.

00:50:21   But yeah, I do wonder that they think about this

00:50:24   in like a proactive way versus a reactive way,

00:50:26   like you said.

00:50:27   Now they don't control it.

00:50:30   And at the end of the day,

00:50:32   this is not necessarily a huge deal

00:50:35   until someone puts it on like some antique piece

00:50:37   of furniture that their great grandmother brought over.

00:50:40   I mean, it's like someone's gonna have

00:50:41   something expensive ruined,

00:50:43   and then it's gonna be bad and sad for that person.

00:50:46   Yeah, I just don't know.

00:50:47   not what I expected to be talking about today when I woke up. I didn't think this would

00:50:50   be the story.

00:50:51   I like that there's some things from Apple that are just like "Oh, just retreat the surface!"

00:50:54   It's like "Okay! Thank you!" Great, great. So I would say, in case there's any question,

00:51:01   I'm keeping my HomePod because I love it. It's the best speaker I've ever owned and

00:51:05   I love listening to music on it. It's awesome.

00:51:07   You've gone from not wanting to buy the HomePod to being skeptical of the HomePod.

00:51:13   I was thinking about this. You guys are both a bit like, "I don't know, I don't know."

00:51:17   And you were looking forward to it. I didn't want it, right? So I had no expectations.

00:51:22   I had none. So all it needed to do was be barely passable and it was going to surpass

00:51:26   what I want, like my expectation from it. Right? Like everything I thought about the

00:51:31   HomePod that would be bad is bad. And I didn't know just how good the audio was going to

00:51:37   be. So it's better than I thought it was going to be.

00:51:39   Hmm. Okay. Yeah, I mean, I'm I just wanna say I'm super happy. My Echo is gone. Like we removed all the Echo stuff. We're just using...

00:51:51   Oh wow.

00:51:52   Yeah, yeah. I was trying to tell you, I love the HomePod. I'm not blown away like some people make it out to be by this audio at 40%. But I love it. It works very well. It's a fine product.

00:52:06   despite the ring on my furniture that I hope Seidwith doesn't notice.

00:52:10   But it's fine!

00:52:11   [laughs]

00:52:12   Is he able to do everything from an audio perspective that your Echo was doing for you?

00:52:18   All the skills and all that sort of stuff taken care of?

00:52:20   It hears me better than the Echo.

00:52:23   And because I'm not using Todoist anymore, that's not a problem.

00:52:30   And in fact, I could argue that it's even better in terms of music playback.

00:52:35   because Silvia and I share many playlists on Apple Music,

00:52:39   so there's an easier way to shuffle those playlists,

00:52:42   for example.

00:52:43   Like, the sentence is shorter,

00:52:45   and I can play Silvia's own playlists

00:52:47   that I have on Apple Music but I don't have on Spotify.

00:52:51   And I want to wait until the 11.3 beta

00:52:56   gets the SiriKit fix,

00:52:59   so I can also use things or, you know,

00:53:01   other apps that I have with Siri integration.

00:53:04   So it's you know, well, I mean you're assuming that it is a problem. Oh, yes. I am assuming that yes

00:53:09   I'm not on 11.3 doesn't work and I'm having all those problems. I'm at I'm on 11 to 5

00:53:16   In a decent future it'll work

00:53:20   Yeah, and that's sort of like

00:53:25   Matt I I'm gonna keep it. I

00:53:30   I don't know if it's going to replace the Echo in our kitchen.

00:53:33   That's where our HomePod is right now.

00:53:35   Making my family live with it for a while.

00:53:36   Because everything but the timers it does.

00:53:39   It may just do them worse than the Echo did.

00:53:42   But it sounds really good and maybe that's a trade off because we use ours for music

00:53:45   a lot.

00:53:47   I just think this is a very interesting product because the hardware, other than this destroying

00:53:52   antique pieces of furniture business, is like really solid.

00:53:56   It sounds really good.

00:53:57   It looks really nice.

00:53:58   I've got the white one.

00:53:59   I think everyone else that I know got the space gray one,

00:54:02   but I think both look nice.

00:54:04   All that is like a win, but it sort of folds

00:54:09   into the narrative that we have of Apple software

00:54:11   is sort of a dollar short and a day late on a lot of things.

00:54:15   And I think the line of, well, it's been in development

00:54:20   for six years or however long, eight years, 100 years,

00:54:23   and so it was never really designed

00:54:24   to compete with voice assistants.

00:54:26   That's too bad, it does.

00:54:28   Like a person who wants to spend between 200 and $500

00:54:32   on a speaker, they're all gonna have

00:54:34   some sort of voice assistant at this point.

00:54:36   When you compare this to the Google Home Max

00:54:40   or the Sonos One or the Sonos Play 5,

00:54:44   this doesn't hold up on the voice assistant end of things.

00:54:47   And Apple waving its hand saying,

00:54:49   "No, no, it's a speaker and we just threw this stuff in."

00:54:52   Like that's, like I just don't buy it.

00:54:54   Like that's, you can say what you wanna say,

00:54:56   you can repeat what Apple PR says.

00:54:58   And I understand their point of view, right?

00:54:59   'Cause they want to compete on, it sounds really good.

00:55:02   And from that perspective, they seem,

00:55:05   from people who have listened to a bunch of these things,

00:55:06   seem to be doing very well.

00:55:08   But the fact is, it is a voice assistant in a canister,

00:55:13   and people are going to judge it

00:55:16   against what Amazon and Google are doing.

00:55:18   And their Apple is behind.

00:55:20   - You can't have your cake and eat it.

00:55:22   - Right. - Right.

00:55:24   You can't just be like, oh, we put Siri in it,

00:55:26   but like don't compare us.

00:55:28   - Don't compare it to other things

00:55:29   because we really didn't do it, blah, blah, blah.

00:55:31   Like that's just, it just doesn't--

00:55:32   - It was an accident, Siri fell into it.

00:55:34   - Yeah, the top was open and Siri was drunk and just like--

00:55:39   - Going to, it's like going through a marathon,

00:55:41   dressed up like an athlete, but say,

00:55:43   "No, I'm not running in the marathon,

00:55:44   "I'm just here, I'm just chilling."

00:55:46   - I'm just standing by.

00:55:48   (laughing)

00:55:51   - Yeah, no, that's totally what it's like.

00:55:53   And I find that narrative extremely frustrating

00:55:56   because we can let products compete for what they are

00:55:59   and it's okay if Apple doesn't always win those competitions

00:56:01   but some people can't stomach that.

00:56:04   But to answer your question, before I went off on that rant,

00:56:07   we're gonna keep ours.

00:56:08   I don't know where it will live in our lives.

00:56:12   This may end up that we keep the Echo in the kitchen

00:56:14   and maybe this is in the living room just for music.

00:56:17   I don't really know.

00:56:18   But it does everything my Echo did for us.

00:56:21   I don't have a lot of custom stuff,

00:56:23   a lot of third-party skills on my Echo.

00:56:25   most of it is home stuff,

00:56:27   and since my very first smart plug

00:56:31   I put in my house a couple years ago,

00:56:32   the only things I've added work with both Amazon and HomeKit.

00:56:35   Like I've done that very much on purpose,

00:56:38   with an eye, you know, cut towards today,

00:56:41   where the HomePod is a thing, so.

00:56:43   We'll see how it goes.

00:56:45   I think this is a product we have to live with,

00:56:46   I think we have to let Apple live with it,

00:56:48   I think we have to let Apple work on it and improve it.

00:56:50   But I'm telling you guys, like if we're here in a year,

00:56:53   and it still, if we're, okay.

00:56:58   If the world still exists in a year

00:57:03   and the HomePod is still basically what it is today,

00:57:07   like if they're not aggressively updating this thing

00:57:10   in the near future, then I think they've missed the boat.

00:57:13   I'm willing to give them a little ground now,

00:57:15   but like, and this is just riding off AirPlay 2

00:57:17   and multi-room stuff, which they've failed to ship,

00:57:20   but things like calendar support.

00:57:23   Like if you turn on personal requests,

00:57:24   it can't see your calendar.

00:57:25   Like, this is so bad.

00:57:28   So I think they've gotta get on the ball with evolving it,

00:57:31   and I think that's going to be the story

00:57:33   of the HomePod moving forward is,

00:57:36   okay, at launch, like, it sounds really good,

00:57:37   but it's not a great smart assistant.

00:57:39   Can they actually improve that?

00:57:41   And is it gonna be a, every year at WWDC,

00:57:44   the HomePod gets better, like, too late for that Apple.

00:57:47   Like, they've gotta be on the ball

00:57:48   updating this on a regular basis.

00:57:50   Alright, let's take a break and thank our second sponsor for this week, which is the

00:57:53   fine folk over at Anchor. Anchor is the fastest and easiest way for anyone to make a podcast.

00:57:59   If you have a thing that you want to say, you have opinions that you want to get out

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00:58:46   I've been using Anchor a bunch recently to do some AMA stuff.

00:58:50   So if you go to anchor.fm/mikehurley,

00:58:53   that is A-N-C-H-O-R.FM/mikehurley,

00:58:57   you can find out more about Anchor itself,

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00:59:01   And you can sign up, and if you call into my station,

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00:59:31   Thanks to Anchor for their support of this show.

00:59:33   Good old Mark Gurman's back with an interesting report.

00:59:37   This one is very old school Mark Gurman.

00:59:42   full of tons of little details. And it's a solo byline. It's not the hand-holding Bloomberg has

00:59:48   had to do for him for so long. Remember it was always like, people familiar with the matter may

00:59:52   say, or like, we believe like, this is like, old school, German. It's a little bit more. Yeah. And

00:59:58   I would assume that this might be part of the fact he got promoted recently, right? He's taken over

01:00:03   the beat, I think, in most basically all of it. Anyway, so I'm gonna read some of the stuff to

01:00:10   to you we're going to stop and talk about it where we want to. So Gurman is further

01:00:14   reporting that Apple will be debuting new features for iOS 12 but the main focus will

01:00:20   be on stability which is stuff that's been spoken about over the last couple of weeks.

01:00:24   But what's new in this report is he's actually talking about what's in and what's out for

01:00:28   iOS 12. So he talks about Project Marzipan again. This is the idea that apps will be

01:00:34   able to work on Mac OS and iOS right so which is probably going to be I think the way that

01:00:39   we're expecting it is that iOS apps can work on the Mac, right?

01:00:42   Like that's the way it's going to go around is how we're expecting it.

01:00:45   This feels like it's going to be the big thing at WWDC, right?

01:00:52   Like this,

01:00:53   this feels like one of the reasons they might be able to hold back on some iOS

01:00:58   12 stuff is because they're going to debut this crazy new way of developing

01:01:03   applications.

01:01:04   Yeah. I assume that will be...

01:01:07   It would be blockbuster.

01:01:09   Yeah. Like everybody would be talking about that.

01:01:11   Oh, yeah. I mean, I can already imagine

01:01:14   the frenzied conversations I will have with developers afterwards.

01:01:18   Right. Like I can imagine how people will just be going like,

01:01:22   oh, imagine all the new things I can do. Right.

01:01:24   Like people, I think, are going to be really excited about it.

01:01:26   And for the developer conference would totally just knock

01:01:31   everything out of the park. Right.

01:01:32   No matter what they would debut in iOS 12,

01:01:36   If they're debuting this as well, everything else will get forgotten about, right?

01:01:39   Because this will be a huge change, good and bad.

01:01:43   There are a lot of ramifications with it.

01:01:44   Digital Health Tool is something that will be coming to iOS 12.

01:01:52   Basically, this is an application that will allow for parents to monitor how much children use their devices.

01:01:59   this I've been mostly ignoring a lot of the stuff around this recently because

01:02:03   I just kind of don't care about it but like there's a lot of

01:02:08   hand wringing about how much children should be able to use devices. Stephen, I'm assuming that

01:02:15   of all of us you are the one who has followed this news the closest because you actually have kids

01:02:19   true or like it rings true to you in some way. What is your thinking around this? Yeah, so the

01:02:25   the story has been you know Apple has been approached by people saying you

01:02:30   know they you need better management tools for this and like already like as

01:02:34   an aside iOS and Mac OS to a lesser degree but iOS in particular has really

01:02:39   good parental controls already like you can really lock down an iPhone or an

01:02:43   iPad or an iPod touch for use by kids and they say they're going to improve

01:02:49   that which is great they should be improving it all the time and they have

01:02:51   been on a pretty regular basis those tools get easier to use and easier to

01:02:57   manage it but more powerful. So I think Apple's done a better job than anyone

01:03:00   else already. The idea that I need, I'm gonna try to use my words very carefully,

01:03:06   that I need help monitoring how much my kids are using their devices, like I

01:03:10   don't think I personally need that but I recognize that my kids are still pretty

01:03:15   young and that they don't have access to a device without my wife or I handing it

01:03:23   to them. Like they don't have their own phones. We have a couple iPad minis but

01:03:28   you know we can you know if they're using it's because I've handed it to them.

01:03:32   However just because I don't necessarily feel like I need this tool doesn't mean

01:03:38   it's not important. I think there are a lot of kids who do have their own

01:03:41   devices or have a situation where they have more alone time than my kids have.

01:03:49   I work at home and my wife stays at home, so we're always around.

01:03:53   And a lot of kids, including myself growing up, had a lot more parent-free time after

01:03:57   school and stuff.

01:03:58   So I think it's good.

01:03:59   I think it's a good addition to iOS.

01:04:02   I think they've proven that they can write these sorts of tools in a way that you don't

01:04:07   have to be a tech podcaster or writer to understand how to use them.

01:04:11   I've got, I mean a lot of my friends locally have kids as well and we talk about this sort

01:04:16   of stuff and all of them are using this and they've all done it without me helping them.

01:04:20   You know they've figured it out on their own because Apple has done a good job at laying

01:04:23   these tools out.

01:04:24   So I assume that this will be a similar type thing where it's easy to maintain and you

01:04:30   know maybe they're going to have some remote access stuff.

01:04:33   Like one thing I would really like to see in this is if you're using iCloud family sharing

01:04:39   that give me the parent, as the parent or as a parent

01:04:44   in the iCloud family, let me do some of this stuff remotely.

01:04:47   Right, so if I, you know, if my kid isn't at home

01:04:51   and they need access to something that they can ask

01:04:53   and I can grant it, just how they do with purchases

01:04:56   and net purchases now, like build on that

01:04:58   and make this more of an interactive tool

01:05:00   where I don't set it and forget it,

01:05:02   but I have an opportunity to dialogue

01:05:04   with my children about it.

01:05:05   So for me personally, I don't feel like I need it at this point.

01:05:09   I probably will in the future, but I think a lot of families do want this.

01:05:13   And so I think it's good that Apple's addressing it.

01:05:15   I hope that digital health is just a term that Mark Gurman is using.

01:05:21   I don't like it because I don't like the implications in a name like that.

01:05:26   Like that it is unhealthy.

01:05:27   No, I think it's just going to be...

01:05:28   Like inherently unhealthy.

01:05:29   I just see this being another top level category in parental control.

01:05:33   I don't think this gets its own brand. I think it's just he has to call it something. I don't

01:05:38   think this is like a thing with a marketing name.

01:05:40   We're just going to call it screen time with a, you know, with its whole one word and camel

01:05:45   case. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what that is? Probably what they would like if they're going

01:05:50   to do some kind of limiting stuff or allow you to, as you say, like to have some kind

01:05:55   of remote access screen time would probably what they call it. An emoji, more characters,

01:06:01   Better navigation, whatever that means.

01:06:04   I don't 100% know what that means.

01:06:06   Redesign of the Messages app.

01:06:08   Honestly, I hope it means breaking it out a little bit more.

01:06:11   I like this.

01:06:12   It felt like a throwaway line and I was like, my brain exploded.

01:06:15   And then he explained it, so Mark Germer says they will come to the iPad and I was like,

01:06:19   what?

01:06:20   How?

01:06:21   And then follows it up with, apparently Apple was working on new hardware with Face ID.

01:06:24   So my question, if at WWDC they announce that they're coming to the iPad, will we probably

01:06:30   see new iPads at WWDC. That's the hope. Like you can't say Face ID is coming to the iPad

01:06:38   without confirming. Well it could be one of those things where people, you know Steve

01:06:43   Trout Smith spelunks and finds it in iOS 12 and then we see iPads in the fall. Of course.

01:06:49   I mean that is of course a way it could happen. But what I mean is they can't on stage say

01:06:54   it's coming to the iPad. Because what they would say is it's coming to our new iPads

01:07:00   had in the fall which I probably announced at some point during the

01:07:03   presentation. One that I am very excited about and like a real good logical step

01:07:09   next step for it is to integrate it into FaceTime which is awesome. That will

01:07:14   be so much fun but I am concerned my phone will turn into just a ball of flame.

01:07:20   So you say that are using Animoji now? Like when's the last time you sent one?

01:07:24   I send them every now and then but like... When's the last time you FaceTime video

01:07:28   chatted with somebody whenever I travel. That has to be pretty frequent. Yeah.

01:07:35   Yeah whenever I travel I FaceTime video chat with Christina and you do it but like it's

01:07:40   a great I mean I don't know like if you're on a face so here's my thinking on this right

01:07:44   why I think this would be fun I'm not gonna use it that much but I will use it right but

01:07:48   if you are on a video call with someone just looking at each other's faces over like half

01:07:55   an hour if you're going to do a call like that. There's not a lot going on. It might

01:07:59   be fun to be a panda for 20 seconds, right? I don't know, it feels like a nice addition

01:08:05   to it. Animoji is mostly a selling tool of the device, and so anything you can do there

01:08:11   is good. I like playing around with it every now and then. I send maybe one a month, right?

01:08:16   Like video or sticker. But that works fine for me. There are still animoji that if they

01:08:22   added I would use more so like the nerd face emoji is my emoji of choice if I

01:08:28   could use that as an animoji I would use that basically every time instead of

01:08:32   using the nerd emoji right like in messages I would make my own face as the

01:08:37   nerd emoji and use that I don't know but animoji is what it is it is a fun little

01:08:42   tech demo for the iPhone 10 and it will be for the iPad I think they should

01:08:47   continue expanding it because it's got a lot of brand cachet for them now because

01:08:51   it's also theirs. That's Apple's. You know, we talked about emoji earlier, right? Animoji

01:08:55   is Apple's. And you're going to see Android device makers trying to do this.

01:09:00   My question is, if we get 3D on the iPad, how does it work? In the sense, do we get

01:09:05   one TrueDepth camera system that works in both orientations and it's got like a wider

01:09:11   angle or do we get two cameras, one on each side?

01:09:14   No, one. I think it's one camera and they've worked out how to do it because two cameras

01:09:19   is terrible because then don't you need four?

01:09:21   I think it's one. I think it's one and it's got a wider angle and it works in landscape.

01:09:25   It has to be one or it's four, right? Because you'd need one on every single side.

01:09:30   So all orientations, you have to affix the orientation problem.

01:09:34   So, which I expect that they will have.

01:09:37   A new stocks app. Don't understand why...

01:09:40   Bitcoin, man! Don't you want to check the Bitcoins?

01:09:44   That was the only thing I was thinking about, right? And I was expecting Marc to say it.

01:09:48   But adding cryptocurrency support to the stocks app was the only thing that I can assume they're doing because why would you make a new stock app?

01:09:56   It's pretty iOS 70 in there. I don't know.

01:09:59   Yeah, but like who's using it that really needs it? Like don't you just get a good app?

01:10:05   I figure it's for cryptocurrency. It's cryptocurrency. It's gotta be, man. It's gotta be.

01:10:11   In Silicon Valley, of course they're all trading cryptocurrency.

01:10:15   right like it'll be sad when all that goes away we'll see more options to do

01:10:21   not disturb great I want those I don't know what they are I don't care I just

01:10:25   want them multiplayer AR games is interesting I don't really know what

01:10:30   that would look like yeah I guess multiple devices all sharing in a space

01:10:33   and there's a dinosaur you know like that could be cool right like multiple

01:10:36   got it we do remember 2013 they have the car racing demo that opened WDC we

01:10:44   - Do we all remember this?

01:10:45   - Anki Drive.

01:10:47   - What if for 2018, to celebrate the five year anniversary

01:10:50   of whatever that was, it's just some people on stage

01:10:54   with iPads pointing them at the floor

01:10:56   and the cars are now inside the AR app.

01:10:59   - What if, I'm gonna double that,

01:11:01   what if there's people on stage,

01:11:05   the same people from five years ago,

01:11:07   and in AR they relive that demo fail on stage.

01:11:12   They look at the old demo.

01:11:17   I'm going to go in a different direction with my what if.

01:11:20   What if the multiplayer AR is built into the stocks app and we can all simultaneously look

01:11:26   at how Bitcoin is crashing and just walk around the chart ourselves?

01:11:30   That's really good.

01:11:31   That's really sad.

01:11:33   So there's many options here.

01:11:35   And also the last thing that Mark reports as a feature for iOS 12 is deeper integration

01:11:44   for Siri in search.

01:11:45   I mean, okay, so is this Siri in Spotlight, which means you can text to Siri?

01:11:50   That sounds like it.

01:11:51   I know that you like that.

01:11:53   I know you want that.

01:11:54   You set up your whole Ruhr-Gorbog machine to get that working.

01:11:58   Yeah, so that's iOS 12, I guess, in a nutshell, what we know.

01:12:03   At what point, back up a second.

01:12:04   At what point does Spotlight just become Siri search?

01:12:08   - Yeah. - Like?

01:12:09   - Yeah. - Now?

01:12:10   - I feel like now it should be.

01:12:12   - The only difference is I type to one

01:12:13   and speak to the other and that's a stupid distinction.

01:12:15   Like it just, it feels like, like even on the Mac,

01:12:17   like in my upper right hand corner,

01:12:19   I've got my username, I have a little Spotlight,

01:12:22   magnifying glass, I have a little Siri thing,

01:12:25   like those really should just be one thing.

01:12:29   And it feels like they're pushing towards that,

01:12:31   so maybe that's what this is.

01:12:32   Maybe it is just kind of becoming one.

01:12:35   Yeah, I feel like that has to happen eventually, because especially when type

01:12:40   to Siri exists, because type like them, what's the difference?

01:12:43   Right. Like it just gets so messy.

01:12:45   And Spotlight, Spotlight is not a brand that needs to exist anymore.

01:12:50   Right. Siri is a stronger brand.

01:12:52   You may as well just switch over to the other one.

01:12:55   Yeah. All right.

01:12:56   So as well as this, as well as the stuff that is in Mark

01:13:00   and reported on the stuff that is out for iOS 12 to move on to another year

01:13:05   and also talking about the new kind of new idea what Apple is trying to do here

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01:15:32   OK, so as well as the things that are in iOS 12,

01:15:38   these are some of the things that have been moved.

01:15:40   A redesigned home screen.

01:15:42   So that is probably going to go out for iOS 13, probably

01:15:47   redesigned CarPlay.

01:15:50   revamped photos app and big enhancements for the iPad will not occur until 2019.

01:15:57   Some of these include the ability to run several windows in one application in a tab structure

01:16:04   like on Mac OS or to have two screens of the same app side by side and also new Apple pencil

01:16:11   features.

01:16:12   Federico, what do you think about the fact that we may not see iPad features until 2019?

01:16:16   I think we, this, I was sort of expecting it and I'm sad, but if it's, you know, the

01:16:25   kind of year that we just need to wait and, you know, cross our fingers because the, it

01:16:30   means that iOS will be more stable, will be faster, will be like a better experience for

01:16:36   everybody.

01:16:37   We can, we can suffer through this together, I think, and it's going to be fine.

01:16:42   It's going to be better next year.

01:16:43   I think it's necessary.

01:16:45   At this point I wouldn't want to... like this is not ideal for me, this is not what I wanted,

01:16:52   but I also want to see people not be upset with iOS 11, with bugs and with crashes and

01:17:00   with UI glitches. So I don't like it, I'm not happy, but I will be if Apple's strategy

01:17:09   works out. So, what can I say, I'm not ecstatic about this, Myke. But if it means that, you

01:17:18   know, in 2019 everybody's happier and every iPad works better and is faster, then so be

01:17:26   it. That's my takeaway, I guess. I mean, yeah.

01:17:32   So here's my thinking on this. I was pretty much already expecting that like big iPad

01:17:37   features were going to come every two years now because that's kind of been a

01:17:41   trend like it happened once and then there was two years and it happened again

01:17:45   and my expectation would be that's what we would see and I don't mind this so

01:17:50   much as long as the features get revised upon and fixed where they need to be

01:17:55   fixed because that didn't really happen in 10 so I hope that in iOS 12 there are

01:17:59   bug fixes and revisions to the stuff that was introduced in 11. It also

01:18:03   it doesn't bother me if the version of iOS that comes next brings with it features that

01:18:09   are useful on the iPad as well. I feel like iOS 10 didn't really have much in it anyway

01:18:15   for anyone. It wasn't actually an incredibly exciting release. It had messages and stuff,

01:18:23   like that was kind of it really. It wasn't a really big iOS release. So as long as the

01:18:29   features that we get and it looks like some of that stuff would have, you know,

01:18:32   good implications for the iPad but the thing that makes me the most excited and

01:18:36   one of the reasons that I'm not concerned about this is the implication

01:18:44   of this iOS and Mac cross-platform development stuff could be really

01:18:49   freaking good for the iPad because the types of interfaces that will work best

01:18:55   on the Mac are bigger screen interfaces. So I believe that if people adopt this,

01:19:02   the iPad will get stronger. iPad software will get stronger because there will be

01:19:07   two types of devices that these applications will work well on, the iPad

01:19:11   and the Mac. And I think that if this is embraced by the community, it will be

01:19:17   good for the iPad. Especially because I think like if this framework, whatever

01:19:24   very easy, this technology can inform software design the other way around. Like not just

01:19:30   bringing iPhone apps to the Mac, but bringing some of the Mac features and the Mac paradigms

01:19:35   to the iPad, for example. Because now you have a shared system to make one app that

01:19:41   works everywhere. And as you say, it's obvious to imagine that, you know, some developers

01:19:49   will are going to make iPad apps that run on a Mac and iPad apps will get better in

01:19:56   return because now you have this developer community that can work together with these

01:20:01   two platforms. And so this rumor, for example, that the iPad is gaining the tabbed feature

01:20:10   from Sierra, I think, and also it's gaining the split view for a single app like Safari

01:20:17   already has one for example, that's great and that's the kind of feature that you see

01:20:21   on a Mac first and it makes sense for the iPad, especially the big models because it's

01:20:26   also a big screen.

01:20:28   And so instead of making fun of, "Oh, now I'm going to see Instagram on the, you know,

01:20:32   the tiny Instagram window on my big Mac," I think it's more, I think it's more productive

01:20:39   to imagine, "Can we see iPad apps be on a Mac but can we also see Mac developers making

01:20:46   iPad software that we could not have seen unless Apple made this kind of framework.

01:20:54   So I think it's going to be a fun couple of years. Even if this one, people like you and

01:20:59   I, Myke, maybe we don't necessarily care so much about Marzipan and bug fixes and performance

01:21:10   improvements are going to be fine, but it's not like, "Oh my God, we're getting bug fixes."

01:21:16   not that kind of mindset, but I think 2019, if this strategy plays out well for Apple,

01:21:22   it's going to be really funny for the iPad. I also wonder, and I wanted to ask you guys

01:21:28   about this, do we really think that Apple is not going to have at least like six to

01:21:35   seven features about iOS 12 to show off at WWDC? Because that would be strange.

01:21:41   Well, we got stocks

01:21:43   Well the ones that I've read they are those right do not disturb multiplayer AI

01:21:49   AR games Siri search animoji digital health like that's there your features and then like

01:21:56   Battery stuff bug fixes, you know, like that's what they'll show and

01:22:02   They your features and they can just make those seem like more important than they are or whatever

01:22:07   But they're so far

01:22:09   Like there only needs to be one of those things that they spend a lot of time on and then that becomes the big feature like

01:22:14   Messages what so far it seems like my first prediction that Apple is gonna have like a big focus on speed and stability

01:22:21   It's pretty much locked and it seems like I'm gonna I'm gonna yeah, I think I'm gonna win that point still thinking about it

01:22:27   Yeah, just winning a point doesn't win you the year though. Don't forget that one

01:22:32   So to do all of this this this new restructuring comes along with some internal changes at Apple apparently

01:22:38   developers will and engineers will now be thinking of a focus on two years of updates rather than focusing on one year at a time

01:22:46   with the

01:22:47   Thinking being that if you have one set of features that you're going to implement over a two year period

01:22:52   You can hold back the stuff that won't work and bring forward the stuff that will work. Apparently this will give

01:22:58   Apples engineers more time to refine and polish and make sure that the features that they are shipping are the right ones. I mean my

01:23:05   Thinking on that is like doesn't it just cause the same problem?

01:23:08   Like what's one year in two years if you're still working on a defined structure of releasing

01:23:13   But I'm assuming that this will help at least some

01:23:16   But if you have two two years sets of features and you get to the end of the second year and then all done

01:23:21   Does it not just mean that you're gonna have bugs at every second year?

01:23:24   I don't know if, I mean, I would be keen to see if this actually goes about fixing anything,

01:23:29   or if all it does is just pushes the problems to the second year.

01:23:32   But maybe that's TikTok, right? I don't know. I don't know enough about software development.

01:23:38   I mean, there's the idea that work will expand to take the time given. So they could end up there.

01:23:44   The way I choose to read it is like from an optimistic standpoint, that they're giving

01:23:52   themselves flexibility.

01:23:56   If they hit that internal deadline and they say, "Hey, this needs more time," they

01:24:01   now feel like they can give it more time.

01:24:04   And of course, things have slipped in the past, there have been reports of that, but

01:24:08   this feels like, organization-wide, what I'm hoping for is the freedom to say either mid-cycle,

01:24:15   "Hey, this needs more time," or what was really more interesting to me, I think, is

01:24:21   does this mean in the future? If the two year cycle becomes the new normal, what could they

01:24:26   do with two years of time that was never possible with one year?

01:24:31   Oh, that is really interesting to me. If like what you start on something in July and you

01:24:39   know it's going to be a two year thing. Yeah. And that's very interesting. I hadn't thought

01:24:44   that I liked that. I liked that thought a lot. And I guess one of the big things is

01:24:48   that it changes the corporate culture internally where people don't have to be super nervous

01:24:53   and freaking out that their thing isn't ready for a year when it's totally fine now to make

01:24:57   it every two years. Right? Like that, I'm sure that helps a lot. And I guess this is

01:25:01   communicated in the apparent code names. iOS 12 is code name peace. Uh, Mac OS 10.14 is

01:25:09   code name Liberty. And Mac OS may be bringing with it a home app and an Apple podcast app

01:25:16   probably because of Project Marspan.

01:25:18   They should have just named them,

01:25:19   "We don't hate our engineers anymore."

01:25:22   That could have been also a good name.

01:25:25   Yeah, that seems to reflect the mood at Apple.

01:25:29   iOS 12 underworked, and Mac OS 10.14--

01:25:33   Stressed out.

01:25:34   There's still time.

01:25:35   The two guys working on Mac OS have a little bit of a break.

01:25:38   I'm just kidding.

01:25:39   I know there's more than two people.

01:25:41   So talking about this Project Marspan deal,

01:25:44   Apple will need some sort of like Halo project, say, look, we brought over

01:25:48   Apple podcast or home, or I think what a lot of people really want is Apple news.

01:25:52   Like Apple news is this sleeper hit we never talk about, but tons of people use

01:25:55   it.

01:25:55   They need to get on stage with this.

01:25:58   And I think they need, like, this is this iOS code base and it's written in Swift

01:26:03   and we moved it to Mac OS via this new project workflow Xcode magic that we now

01:26:12   have and it took us this much time and we need to do these sorts of things.

01:26:17   They did that with the Intel transition very very well. They did it moving from

01:26:23   carbon to cocoa very well and so I think that we will see Apple spend time on

01:26:27   stage probably in the keynote but most definitely in the state of the Union

01:26:32   which is sort of like the internal keynote like you can watch it on the

01:26:36   website but it's not what most people see it's it's nerdier and more of the

01:26:40   details. So I think they could use one of these projects home

01:26:44   Apple podcasts or Apple news to say look, we did it with this

01:26:48   project. This is how long it took. These are the things we

01:26:50   ran into as an example. And I think that the code names if

01:26:55   they're accurate or hilarious, like I was still codenamed

01:26:59   piece, like people want their iPads and iPhones to be more

01:27:01   stable. But also like Mac OS nickname being Liberty is really

01:27:05   funny to me like you are, you are sort of freeing the Mac up

01:27:09   to do more and to your point earlier building those bridges for Mac and iOS

01:27:17   especially iPad developers to to bring their apps back and forth like if this

01:27:22   works and I think it I think it will like this is great like slowing down iOS

01:27:30   development internally this year being a little bit of a breather because the

01:27:35   like let's think about the alternative timeline for a second and I'm talking

01:27:38   lot I'm sorry but the alternative timeline is iOS 12 gets a new carplay a

01:27:43   new home screen a new photos app whatever all that means who knows and

01:27:50   project marzipan is real like developers are going to struggle in that timeline

01:27:58   to be ready for the fall and I think what happens there in that timeline is

01:28:04   that the cross-platform stuff to get an iOS app set up on the Mac or vice versa

01:28:08   versa, that gets pushed down the road for a lot of developers.

01:28:12   But if iOS 12 and, by extension, Mac OS 10.14 are smaller releases, and the big developer

01:28:20   push is this cross-platform stuff, developers may be more likely to adopt it earlier, right?

01:28:26   Because they're not running around having to rewrite a bunch of stuff because a bunch

01:28:30   of APIs changed in the photo system.

01:28:32   Or they have to redo all their icons, or widgets are a thing now, they all need widgets.

01:28:37   it is, if all that's not present, my guess is that if the stocks app is redesigned, that

01:28:42   doesn't affect most third party developers day to day.

01:28:44   Like they're not going to be rewinding the apps because the stock app is different.

01:28:47   Well you never know.

01:28:49   What if it generates the sixth new design language?

01:28:51   Yeah, it definitely could.

01:28:54   And so maybe this year we'll see third party developers move into this cross platform stuff

01:29:00   earlier than they would have otherwise.

01:29:02   And that is a huge win for all three platforms.

01:29:04   big for the iPhone, but the iPad and the Mac in particular have the most to benefit from

01:29:08   each other. And that is someone who uses all three like I'm super pumped for this. Like

01:29:13   I am today sitting here in mid February. I am more excited about this WWDC than I think

01:29:20   I've been in a long time this early. Because if Gurman is right about all this stuff, because

01:29:24   because it means that my Mac and my iPad potentially could both be a lot better in the in their

01:29:31   in their app ecosystems. There's so much stuff that's on my phone that's just on my phone.

01:29:36   The possibilities are great.

01:29:38   I'm very intrigued, but I'm assuming that because you are a heavy Mac user, it is even

01:29:45   more exciting to you as a possibility, right? Because it means a lot for the Mac from an

01:29:52   app development perspective.

01:29:53   And it puts to bed, at least for a few more years, the narrative that the Mac is dead,

01:30:00   it's not. And I think Apple if that was not that that was the case, right? Like, so say

01:30:08   that. So say that this comes out. It's a one way bridge. It's you can put your Mac apps

01:30:12   to iOS because the Mac is a sinking ship like get out, then I will be very sad and our WWDC

01:30:19   show is just gonna be me weeping into the microphone. But this seems to be a bridge

01:30:24   in both directions. So Mac developers can get an iOS easier, just as importantly, but

01:30:29   more exciting for me, iOS developers can come to the Mac more easily.

01:30:33   And if that's the case, and all the reporting says that it is, then the Mac users should

01:30:37   be excited about it.

01:30:40   I think something that could be taken from it, and it depends on how it's presented,

01:30:44   is that dedicated Mac development is dead.

01:30:47   I think that might be a negative take to have from it, but…

01:30:51   I think it may be eventually, but I think…

01:30:53   So my guess is take something like a really complicated Mac app, like Logic, and that's

01:30:59   internal to Apple, but it's the first complicated Mac app that came to mind.

01:31:03   This may not give developers of Mac apps like that the tools to get on iOS quite yet.

01:31:09   I don't think so.

01:31:10   And even as powerful as the iPad and iPhone are, they're not going to meet pro Mac hardware

01:31:16   and power for a while to come.

01:31:18   So I still think low levels, not low level,

01:31:22   but simpler apps, I'm not a developer, so forgive me,

01:31:24   but apps that aren't really tied to the hardware

01:31:28   and really pushing my iMac Pro,

01:31:30   all those apps, it would be fine to run on an iOS platform.

01:31:35   But there's still gonna be some stuff

01:31:38   that's reserved for the Mac.

01:31:39   Just like there's some stuff

01:31:40   that's gonna be reserved for iOS.

01:31:42   Really good drawing apps with pencil support

01:31:44   aren't gonna make the move to the Mac

01:31:45   'cause the Mac doesn't have pencil support.

01:31:47   And there are going to be things that each platform is

01:31:49   better at than the other.

01:31:51   But that whole middle 80% of the Venn diagram that overlaps,

01:31:55   that's where all the exciting stuff is going to happen.

01:31:57   I really hope that this also means

01:31:59   that we might get the ability to connect a mouse to our iPads.

01:32:02   There are just times-- there are just times when I would really

01:32:05   love one, like doing some really intensive Google Sheets stuff.

01:32:09   I would love to be able to connect a mouse to my iPad.

01:32:11   It'd be awesome.

01:32:12   And who knows?

01:32:12   I mean, in my mind, this breaks the damn wide open

01:32:16   for things that Apple is willing to do.

01:32:19   Because if you had brought this up six years ago,

01:32:23   the iPad's kind of getting up and running,

01:32:25   the first one's selling really well,

01:32:26   the iPad 2 is a big success.

01:32:28   And you had said, hey, Mac and iPad development

01:32:31   are gonna merge somehow.

01:32:34   People would have just laughed you out of the room

01:32:36   because they were so different from each other.

01:32:38   And now that's not the case with the pencil and the keyboard

01:32:41   and so like, who knows?

01:32:42   You may get a mouse one day.

01:32:43   This means anything is possible.

01:32:45   So on that note, I think we should wrap up.

01:32:47   I'm going to say before I hand over

01:32:49   to Stephen to do the official outro for the episode,

01:32:52   please buy our t-shirt.

01:32:53   There are links in our show notes.

01:32:54   It's over at Cotton Bureau.

01:32:56   It's called the Tiny Head Tee.

01:32:57   We've got images in the show notes.

01:32:59   We have links in the show notes.

01:33:00   Go and buy the t-shirt.

01:33:02   If you want to find show notes this week,

01:33:04   fire up your web browser of choice

01:33:07   to relay.fm/connected/180.

01:33:11   All those links are there.

01:33:12   You can get in touch with us there as well.

01:33:14   can send us an email or of course you can find us on what's left of Twitter. Myke is

01:33:19   there as I-M-Y-K-E. I don't know. It's still there. They also have good quarterly results.

01:33:26   Anyways, a lot of quarterly results last week on download so I'm just thinking about numbers

01:33:29   all the time. Myke is on Twitter as I-Myke-I-M-Y-K-E and he is a host of a whole bunch of shows

01:33:36   here on Relay FM and he has a YouTube channel at Myke Hurley. It's pretty good. You should

01:33:41   Go check it out.

01:33:43   Federico writes maxstories.net.

01:33:46   It's a wonderful website.

01:33:47   They have an Apple History column each month

01:33:48   that I just love.

01:33:49   It's just really, really good.

01:33:50   - Yeah, I'm gonna fire that guy.

01:33:51   I don't like it anymore. - No!

01:33:53   (laughing)

01:33:54   Oh no.

01:33:55   You can find him on Twitter @viti, V-I-T-I-C-C-I,

01:33:59   and you can find me @ismh on Twitter,

01:34:03   and 512pixels.net, and 512 pixels on YouTube.

01:34:08   Like Myke said, go check out the shirt.

01:34:10   It's really awesome.

01:34:11   I ordered one in blue and I'm very, very excited about it.

01:34:15   I'd like to thank our sponsors this week,

01:34:17   SaneBox, Anchor, and Zola, go check them out.

01:34:20   And until next week, guys, say goodbye.

01:34:24   (speaking in foreign language)

01:34:25   - Goodbye.

01:34:26   - Adios.