176: A Kernel Panic at the Disco


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Connected, episode 176. Today's show is brought to you by Sane Box,

00:00:14   Anchor and Ting. From Overcast London, my name is Myke Hurley from, I'm assuming probably sunny

00:00:23   Italy, Rome. We have Federico Vittucci. Ciao Federico.

00:00:27   Ciao Myke, it's not sunny but it's early so partially right high.

00:00:31   It's got to be at least warm-ish, right?

00:00:33   Surely.

00:00:34   Yeah, it's not too bad.

00:00:36   And the only reason I'm doing this is so I can announce from icy, snowy, frozen Memphis,

00:00:42   Tennessee, Mr. Stephen Hackett.

00:00:45   It's a real scene over here.

00:00:46   It's like I've got forages of snow in my yard and I don't know what to do with it.

00:00:49   So I'm just going to sit there.

00:00:51   I heard that your kids are never going back to school ever again.

00:00:54   Yeah, they're on day five of a long weekend.

00:00:57   It's not great. They need to go back to school.

00:01:02   I don't know. For them, this is pretty good.

00:01:04   Oh, they're having a ball. My to-do list is very unhappy. But that's fine.

00:01:08   Yeah.

00:01:09   It's fine. We have follow-up, and we have some topics, and we have some ads. It's

00:01:16   a pretty normal week on Connected. I mean, that's, I guess, what I'm getting at.

00:01:20   It's exciting. Exciting. Exciting stuff. Yeah. Okay.

00:01:23   So we're gonna start with follow-up and then we'll do those other things.

00:01:28   First point of follow-up this week is several people pointed out that the domain "mike.zone"

00:01:33   is for sale, but I don't remember the joke.

00:01:37   What is this?

00:01:38   I don't know.

00:01:39   What happened?

00:01:40   I don't remember.

00:01:41   What is a "mike zone"?

00:01:43   Maybe, I don't know.

00:01:44   It's like a "senile zone" but...

00:01:46   But for me, yeah, it's my own zone.

00:01:49   You're in my zone.

00:01:50   So anyways...

00:01:51   You're all gonna be in my zone this year.

00:01:52   It's still for sale.

00:01:54   Should we buy it? If people told us it seems like an important event that we shouldn't forget.

00:01:59   The thing is now, at least one of us has to buy it because we're talking about it.

00:02:05   So it has to be purchased at this point.

00:02:08   30 bucks.

00:02:08   Otherwise somebody else is gonna go, "Oh, $30?"

00:02:11   Myke.Club is only $5.

00:02:14   I want to join the Myke Club.

00:02:18   Myke.Website. 25.

00:02:20   Very exclusive club.

00:02:21   We have to buy all of these. We need to stop talking about this.

00:02:24   Myke.mom?

00:02:25   We should create a database of all the jokes and stupid things we say so that we can keep track of them.

00:02:32   I feel like that's a Kyle job.

00:02:34   The real takeaway here is that we're old and don't remember why this is funny.

00:02:40   But I had like four emails about it.

00:02:42   Yeah, speak for yourself.

00:02:44   Myke.webcam is $709.

00:02:48   I want to watch the Myke.webcam.

00:02:51   I'm pretty confident nobody else is gonna buy that one. I did just have to drop $60 in

00:02:56   domain purchases

00:02:58   So really did it?

00:03:00   Yeah, well because we mentioned three very specific ones and if I don't buy them somebody else is gonna

00:03:06   Yeah, them and we've been mentioned on the show if you buy

00:03:09   Myke dot webcam, please. Let me know and we will feature you on the show last week

00:03:15   we were talking about the potential for a

00:03:17   redesign of the Apple watch and Norm wrote in

00:03:20   to say that they hope that Apple keeps compatibility with the existing

00:03:25   watch bands and straps. I'm curious

00:03:28   how long you guys think they should do this? I mean the watch has been out now

00:03:32   what

00:03:32   three years? Somewhere in there?

00:03:36   Would it be reasonable for them to to redesign it and break compatibility with the

00:03:41   straps or do you think that that's a big no-no?

00:03:43   I don't think the

00:03:46   the bands are keeping the Apple Watch

00:03:49   innovation behind. I don't think the current situation with the bands is like with the

00:03:55   30 pin dock connector before they switch to lightning. I'm pretty confident that they

00:04:00   will stay around for a while. I cannot imagine that those tiny connectors and the thickness

00:04:10   of the band is keeping Apple from changing the design of the watch. So I think, especially

00:04:16   because there's a collector's mindset about the current Apple Watch bands.

00:04:23   I think they will be around for the foreseeable future.

00:04:26   I just don't know what they would have to do in a redesign to break compatibility with

00:04:31   the straps.

00:04:32   I guess they could change the width, but those seem like pretty standard sizes.

00:04:35   But even if the watch was radically thinner, you're not going to eat into the space where

00:04:40   the bands go for a while.

00:04:42   So I just don't see it being a problem at any point in sort of the realistic future.

00:04:50   The chat room is recommending that if they do it, maybe they offer a dongle so you could

00:04:54   convert your old watch straps to the new body.

00:04:56   I mean that seems reasonable.

00:05:01   My thinking on this is eventually this will happen, right?

00:05:07   And I guess if you want to make it thinner, like if what you're really wanting to do is

00:05:12   make it thinner than maybe that you would need to do this right like to slim the overall

00:05:18   profile of the watch down I don't know right but that would be my assumption of why you

00:05:22   why they could potentially look to change this at some point but I am a person who owns

00:05:29   lots and lots of watch bands I have bought many watch bands and my feeling on this is

00:05:34   like if they do it I'm not going to be like over the moon but I accept that this is going

00:05:39   to happen. Like if this year Apple did this, I would be like, man, but okay. Right? Like

00:05:46   I've had three of these now, or is it four? How many watches has there been? I get confused

00:05:52   now because of the series numbers. Technically four, but it's been three years.

00:05:58   All right. So I've owned three of them. Right. So my thinking is after three, if they changed

00:06:03   it, like I would kind of understand like some point will change. My thinking of this is

00:06:08   I know that maybe people don't tend to buy tons of phone cases, but it's a similar kind

00:06:14   of thing to me.

00:06:15   Like I will over the life of an iPhone maybe buy a couple of cases for it either because

00:06:20   one's broken or I like a new color.

00:06:22   Like I just bought the orange one because I really like the color.

00:06:26   And I know that eventually this phone's dimensions will change and those cases won't fit anymore.

00:06:32   And I guess the bands are a similar thing.

00:06:33   At least that's kind of the way that I'm trying to position it in my brain.

00:06:37   Two thoughts. The first one is that we're going to get feedback from people who say,

00:06:42   "Well, if you buy the stainless steel band, that's not really comparable to the sport

00:06:46   band for the Apple Watch." Because the cost, you know, you're spending hundreds of dollars

00:06:51   or euros on that band, which I understand. But you can also choose to spend hundreds

00:06:56   of dollars on an iPhone case if you want to, right? Like, the choice is yours.

00:06:59   True, true if you want a diamond encrusted, yeah, iPhone case, totally.

00:07:07   But what I can see happening first is some new Apple Watch bands that are not compatible

00:07:14   with old watches.

00:07:16   That I can see happening first.

00:07:18   Rather than Apple changing the design of the Apple Watch band altogether, I can see how

00:07:26   in the near future, we'll get a new Apple Watch and new bands that can only be used

00:07:31   on the new watches, instead of saying "I'm gonna buy the new band and I'll use it on

00:07:36   my Series 2."

00:07:37   How would that happen though? Because if the Kinect is the same, then... okay. We're just

00:07:43   imagining here.

00:07:45   Like an extra pin or... because I can see Apple moving, for example, into the direction

00:07:49   of smart bands that have some technology inside of them.

00:07:55   you know yeah that that makes more sense yeah like that's that's a way in which I

00:08:00   could imagine that they offer a band that doesn't work with other devices

00:08:03   like it because it doesn't have any smarts in it or whatever but yeah but

00:08:07   I think it was a good a good thing to talk about right because this is a thing

00:08:12   that hasn't happened I think we were all a little bit surprised when the second

00:08:17   watch like it all worked okay and then it continued so I think is this gonna be

00:08:22   how it always is, I kind of doubt it, but it's kind of about when and how they do

00:08:26   make that change. There was something that I wanted to mention because I was

00:08:30   kind of just poking around on Apple's website today as I was thinking about

00:08:34   some stuff for the show and I stumbled across the AirPower map, right? Now I

00:08:40   don't recall, Stephen you may not have a better memory for this, if Apple ever

00:08:45   gave any kind of time frame for AirPower when it was introduced? They said at the

00:08:50   time all they said was next year which would be 2018.

00:08:54   Cool so that's what the website says right now so like they stuck to that. I'm

00:08:59   kind of just wondering like when like when is when are we gonna see this

00:09:04   product like I would assume soon?

00:09:08   How soon is 2018? That's your question. I don't know I was under the impression that there was going to be

00:09:20   some kind of, not necessarily Apple event, but like an Apple release week of some kind,

00:09:27   where sometime in March, for example, we got a bunch of press releases from Apple with,

00:09:33   you know, new announcements. Maybe they could go together with an iOS 11 update, because

00:09:38   in theory we should also be getting the iOS 11 update with the battery stuff, which I

00:09:45   I assume it's going to be some kind of 11.3.

00:09:48   That's the usual modest size update that Apple does before they go into DC.

00:09:55   I mean, they did it one time, it was a modest update.

00:09:59   It's not a pattern, I don't think, but...

00:10:01   Well, last year, we got Fanman AirPods.

00:10:05   It tends to be bigger than...

00:10:09   It's not groundbreaking, but it tends to be bigger.

00:10:11   Come on, it tends to be bigger than the ones before.

00:10:14   I think that is a pattern at this point.

00:10:17   So I would be surprised if we don't get 11.3 with...

00:10:21   I'm not saying that the ground have a redesign, but of major features like Split View is now

00:10:26   totally different, but...

00:10:28   Dark mode!

00:10:29   No, that's not gonna happen.

00:10:31   So anyway, I think there could be an iOS update and a few press releases and Apple can announce

00:10:41   a bunch of things without doing an event.

00:10:44   So maybe it's there.

00:10:45   Well at the same time, coming in April.

00:10:49   Yeah okay, that makes sense.

00:10:53   I think it would be really nice if they could release it with the battery thing.

00:10:56   Just like get the battery press release today.

00:10:59   That would be kind of fun.

00:11:00   I'm still not interested in AirPower.

00:11:02   I know that you are Federico because I know that you're all in on that sweet sweet wireless

00:11:06   charging lifestyle.

00:11:07   Steven, are you wireless charging?

00:11:09   Right now my phone is on the Mofi.

00:11:11   Are you as a person?

00:11:12   Yeah.

00:11:13   Are you sitting on a cheat chair right now?

00:11:15   I am. It's tingly.

00:11:17   Yeah, I've got the Mophie charger.

00:11:19   I've got one on my desk and one on my nightstand.

00:11:21   And yeah, I'm a big fan.

00:11:23   The only time I plug my phone into anything is if I want to charge it in my car.

00:11:28   And then I feel like it's 1830.

00:11:31   It's really nice. I'm a fan.

00:11:33   But I understand why you wouldn't be because plugging something in is obviously super simple.

00:11:40   already have a bunch of chargers, you gotta buy something to do wireless charging, it's

00:11:43   not as fast if you have a fast charger, you have to have it lined up right. There's lots

00:11:46   of cons to wireless charging, but I generally am liking it. I think there's something wrong

00:11:52   with me. Like I just... Oh, I mean, definitely. But... I mean plenty of things, but not this

00:11:57   one. Not this. Because I just feel like so many people that I know are just like "Oh

00:12:01   yeah, I love this wireless charger." Maybe the problem is that I was a person who genuinely

00:12:06   really really liked their already existing docks. Yeah. That. Yeah. That like, honestly

00:12:12   I don't like the idea of just placing my phone loose onto some pad. Like it's just not, that's

00:12:18   just not what I want to do. So maybe that's my problem. Maybe. We have some scheduling,

00:12:24   some very exciting scheduling information to give to the connected listener, Stephen.

00:12:29   Yes we do. So right now we're recording this on Tuesday mornings. Starting next

00:12:36   week we'll be streaming on Wednesdays at 1 p.m. Eastern and the show will be up

00:12:43   shortly thereafter on Wednesday afternoons. So we'll be a day later we'll

00:12:47   be on Wednesdays now starting next week. Today is our last Tuesday show so so

00:12:53   there you go that's the announcement. You've been announced. I would just like to

00:12:57   apologize to people. I know that this stuff can be difficult because I know

00:13:00   like a lot of people plan commutes and stuff to like the shows that they're

00:13:05   gonna listen to on those days so I know it's disruptive to make a change like

00:13:10   this but sometimes these things have to happen so you will now hear us I

00:13:16   guess on Wednesday commutes or Thursday commutes depending on your time zone

00:13:20   would be would be my assumption as opposed to your Tuesday or Wednesday. We

00:13:24   love you very much and we appreciate your understanding. Is that all good?

00:13:29   Yeah. Did I give the official... It sounds... I feel better. Okay great.

00:13:33   That's good then. Today's show is brought to you by SaneBox. Look, I bet if you're

00:13:37   listening to this there is something that you don't like about email. It could

00:13:41   be your client, it could be your service, it could be that frankly you just get

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00:13:52   do that, but it'd be really nice. So, because you know, if you just went Ctrl-A and archive,

00:13:58   you're going to be deleting some important stuff, stuff that you actually do have to

00:14:01   deal with, which is, but the problem is, one of the huge problems of email is all the stuff

00:14:05   is mixed together. The stuff that you want to deal with and the stuff that you don't

00:14:08   want to deal with, they all look exactly the same. And at a glance, it's super difficult

00:14:13   to try and decipher which messages need your attention. So you can't delete everything

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00:14:53   With SaneBox, you can also set up email reminders,

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00:14:57   Stephen, I know that you are a SaneBox user

00:14:59   and have been for a little while.

00:15:00   Can you tell me one or two of your favorite features?

00:15:03   - Yeah, I know you are not an email snoozer, Myke,

00:15:07   but I am sometimes, but I like to use

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00:15:12   I don't particularly care for many third-party mail clients,

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00:15:31   so tomorrow or tonight or next week,

00:15:34   that email is put back in my inbox.

00:15:35   And I can even control what it does

00:15:38   when it comes back in my inbox.

00:15:39   I can say, go back with the original time it came in,

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00:15:46   but I get to use the built-in default mail client,

00:15:49   I want to use and so SaneBox gives me the power user stuff that people enjoy

00:15:55   elsewhere but I get to do it the way that I want to and I'm a big fan. I'm

00:16:00   gonna snooze something right now as I'm talking. See? Snoozed. That's excellent.

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00:16:31   slash connected sanebox.com slash connected our thanks to Sanebox for their support of

00:16:36   the show. So panic, panic is you don't have to. It's okay. Everything's calm. It's not

00:16:43   the best way to begin.

00:16:45   at the disco. I like those guys. I did too. That one debut album. Man, I listened to that

00:16:52   album so much. I haven't, I mean, it may be, I just haven't listened to it, but that first

00:16:56   album, I listened to that album like a billion times.

00:16:59   Do you remember the title, "A Fever You Can't Sweat Out"?

00:17:02   Oh wow. What a great, just great album.

00:17:05   If your computer has a problem at a party, is it a kernel panic at the disco?

00:17:09   Why do we still do a podcast with Stephen?

00:17:19   Because he is the keeper of the follow-up and the explainer of the old things. So, Panic,

00:17:24   the wonderful app developer, announced a couple of weeks ago that they were killing off, kind

00:17:32   of, I guess, yeah, killing off Transmit for iOS. Well, I mean, it's not like that they're

00:17:38   coming in and ripping it off our phones but like they're just not gonna they're

00:17:41   just not gonna develop it anymore probably it seems most likely.

00:17:45   Steven can you give us a summary like what's what is happening here? So

00:17:50   transmit of course is an FTP client it's been around to the max since the

00:17:54   beginning of time and that transmit or panic had an iOS version of transmit and

00:18:00   basically they're doing a couple of things they're suspending the sale of

00:18:05   transmit that may have actually already happened. I haven't looked Kota and

00:18:08   prompt for iOS to other apps are doing are still going. Basically, what this blog

00:18:12   post boils down to is that transmit for iOS did not make enough money to cover

00:18:20   its own development costs and panicked I think to their credit is unwilling to

00:18:27   sell something that they can't actively develop so it could run forever with

00:18:31   just maintenance updates, but they feel like that's not doing their customers justice.

00:18:36   And so they are pulling the app from the App Store. The app will still work, assuming until

00:18:41   iOS, you know, some future release breaks it, but it is effectively at the end of its

00:18:51   life. They said that it made about $35,000 in revenue in 2017. That's not enough for

00:18:59   them to even pay somebody half time to to develop it and they believe the app

00:19:04   needs a full-time developer at least. Because Transmit 5 on the Mac got a

00:19:10   bunch of new stuff and that has not made it down to the iOS version. They seem

00:19:19   unwilling, I think is the word I want to use, to entertain other business models.

00:19:25   So they talk about what would transmit to for iOS look like like a paid update. They don't think that's

00:19:30   the answer

00:19:32   They don't seem to think that you know

00:19:36   Subscription is the answer even though I think we're talking about that and they said sort of the last thing here is that the files app

00:19:43   does a lot of file management stuff and

00:19:47   that

00:19:49   Transmit had a lot of overlap with that which I actually don't really agree with because the files app doesn't have like sftp

00:19:56   Connections and that's what transmits bread and butter is so what is for yeah, so like yeah

00:20:01   I mean I get the point I get what they're trying to say

00:20:03   But the one feature that people used it for is the one feature the files that doesn't have right right which is

00:20:09   FTP stuff and so it's it's you know it's going away and in typical panic fashion

00:20:15   They've done a really good job of outlining their case and very openly as well. Yeah, I really respect panic like this is a sidebar

00:20:21   I really respect panic

00:20:22   They've been in Apple software for a long time and they are just very straightforward with their users in a way that a lot of developers

00:20:29   Don't have the luxury to be and I just I really respect those guys

00:20:33   They did have one last update that made it

00:20:37   Support the iPhone 10 which is nice and

00:20:41   They're going to keep the syncing so you can sync your favorites from the Mac to iOS

00:20:45   That is all going to continue to run and so if you even though the app is gone if you add an FTP connection

00:20:53   To the Mac app it'll sync over to your iPad

00:20:56   So they are keeping support

00:20:59   They are offering customers who purchase in the last 60 days

00:21:03   All they've says they're offering them support this Apple doesn't

00:21:08   give them the ability to provide a refund but it seems like they want to help those customers out.

00:21:12   So yeah, I think that's the news that you know this app that you know,

00:21:17   clearly not a lot of people but some people rely on is it's going away and that's that's the story.

00:21:23   So one question that can't be avoided here is what does this say about the iOS ecosystem?

00:21:30   Like does this mean Federico Vittucci

00:21:33   that

00:21:35   professional applications have no home on iOS?

00:21:38   No, I disagree with that. I think it's been a struggle and I think what we're seeing now,

00:21:48   and I think we will continue to see this unfortunate trend, is some of these apps, like Transmit,

00:22:00   that tried to bring Pro features to iOS and to the iPad before Apple even believed in

00:22:08   Pro software on iOS and the iPad Pro.

00:22:11   These apps seem to me like they are struggling to adapt to the times and of course they're

00:22:17   not generating enough revenue to justify continued development.

00:22:22   And I think Transmit will not be the first to be abandoned.

00:22:28   I think we will continue to see this kind of news, unfortunately, over the past couple

00:22:35   of weeks and months. And there's something to be said about the fact that Panic -- I

00:22:43   love them. It's a company that I highly admire and respect. But when it comes to transmit

00:22:50   the app itself on iOS, it leaves a lot to be desired, especially when it comes to comparing

00:22:57   transmit on iOS to transmit on the Mac.

00:23:00   The features are different.

00:23:01   There's several missing, for example, the connections

00:23:05   that you can set up on the Mac.

00:23:06   You cannot use those on iOS.

00:23:09   Services that you can configure on the Mac,

00:23:11   they are not supported on iOS.

00:23:13   And the most annoying limitation, I think,

00:23:16   is the lack of support for iOS 11 features.

00:23:19   There's no drag and drop between multiple apps, which

00:23:21   would have been ideal for transmit,

00:23:23   so you can upload documents and files by dragging them

00:23:26   from any other iPad app, and also there's no files integration. And the argument that

00:23:31   files replaces transmit is kind of... I don't really believe that argument, because as Steven

00:23:37   mentioned, you don't have any FTP features in files, you don't even have basic zip supporting

00:23:43   files, so it's not really a replacement for transmit. That said, and there's also to consider,

00:23:50   I would say, I would mention the overlap with Coda.

00:23:54   I'm taking a look at, ideally tomorrow on Wednesday,

00:23:57   I have my next iPad Diaries column

00:24:00   about transmit and FTP clients on iOS.

00:24:03   And there's a lot of overlap with Coda,

00:24:05   which is the other app by Panic.

00:24:07   It basically does everything that transmit can

00:24:09   with the exception of a couple of details.

00:24:13   And of course, Coda does more.

00:24:15   And I think I say in the article

00:24:17   that Coda feels like transmit deluxe,

00:24:19   because in addition to file management,

00:24:21   it also does code editing.

00:24:22   But so aside from the missing features

00:24:26   and the fact that transmit never adapted to iOS 11

00:24:29   and the overlap with Coda,

00:24:30   there's something to be said about

00:24:32   these transformational change to the App Store.

00:24:35   I feel like a whole generation of pro apps

00:24:39   that came before subscriptions,

00:24:41   that came before the new App Store,

00:24:43   came before the iPad Pro,

00:24:45   those are, and if they don't have the resources

00:24:48   justify we want to continue investing on this product, they will struggle and they will

00:24:56   be discontinued.

00:24:57   And this is, when it comes to making Pro software that didn't work before, that's totally on

00:25:03   Apple because you could argue that Apple didn't believe in the iPad as a professional platform

00:25:07   and in iOS as a platform for professional software soon enough.

00:25:11   They waited those couple of years where on podcasts and on tech blogs we were all saying

00:25:17   Apple should really pay attention to these companies that are making Pro software, but

00:25:20   they should give those developers the tools to sell Pro software.

00:25:25   This is the consequence.

00:25:26   Two years later, we're seeing these companies and these developers from indie developers

00:25:30   and from smaller companies like Panic, which is smaller by comparing to Adobe, but it's

00:25:36   still a bigger company in the scene.

00:25:39   We will continue to see, I'm afraid, this kind of news, that apps that launched in 2013,

00:25:44   when we were all saying Apple please pay attention to these developers now they

00:25:49   are going to be discontinued because they cannot justify major upgrades for

00:25:54   iOS 11 and new form factors or new iPads. I hear what you're saying and I

00:26:02   don't necessarily disagree with it but I do think apps like Transmit by

00:26:11   companies like panic if they can't make it work on the iPad I do think that is

00:26:17   that may not say much about the viability of pro apps like on an

00:26:22   individual basis but I do think it says something pretty bad about the the iPad

00:26:29   ecosystem on the whole and I think specifically the types of users that the

00:26:34   iPad has attracted. So an FTP client is not the most exciting thing in the world.

00:26:42   It's actually kind of the opposite of that, right? It is like apps like this

00:26:46   are only used by people who are, you know, have nerdy things to get done. You know,

00:26:53   they're uploading files to a server, they're building websites. I used

00:26:57   transmit on a pretty regular basis. I do it on the Mac all the time. I do it on my

00:27:01   some to upload our finished podcast files to our host. Those types of users

00:27:08   are on the Mac where Transmit has been for sale for a long time. And I'm not

00:27:13   saying like Transmit's the only flag here, like it's the only thing to look at, but I

00:27:17   do think there's a conversation to be had that those types of users aren't

00:27:22   adopting the iPad as quickly as some people would like them to. And maybe

00:27:28   Transmit would work two or three years from now if Apple spends the next two to

00:27:32   three years really pushing the iPad forward. We're going to talk some more

00:27:36   about that later on in the show, but I just can't help but think that if a

00:27:41   nerdy app like Transmit can't make it, that that does say something about the

00:27:47   type of users that the iPad has been able to attract. I don't think what it

00:27:51   says is necessarily positive. I think the problem is there is a problem in looking

00:27:57   at this app in like a microcosm because there are, I expect, a ton of different

00:28:05   parts to this discussion that we are not privy to and could kind of like taint

00:28:13   this. One of these is the fact that transmit for the Mac is $45 so it's like

00:28:19   four to five times more expensive than the iOS version. Now whatever you can say

00:28:26   to that is whatever you say to that right like whether you say like oh it's

00:28:31   because of the race to the bottom blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah but

00:28:35   my point more is what panic requires as a company for something to be successful

00:28:45   is potentially different to what Jane Smith the developer requires to be

00:28:54   successful? Sure. And I think that there are a bunch of problems in being like

00:29:01   this didn't work for Panix so it can't work or like this means that Pro apps

00:29:06   on iOS are dead because like we are grading this completely based upon

00:29:12   Panix internal metrics for success. But at the same time what other

00:29:18   metric is there? Like I can't force my metric of success on another company.

00:29:23   Well, the fact that there are four other apps that Federico has mentioned that do these

00:29:27   services that are updated on a regular basis.

00:29:30   And they're all significantly not as nice as Transmit was.

00:29:33   Yeah, but that's the priorities thing, though, right?

00:29:37   But the thing is, nice in what way?

00:29:40   Do you just mean in design?

00:29:42   Or do you mean in features?

00:29:43   Yeah, both.

00:29:44   Right?

00:29:45   But the thing is, maybe your FTP app doesn't need to be beautiful.

00:29:51   I mean, maybe not, but if the iPad wants to attract these types of users who are already

00:29:58   on the Mac, then this is damaging to that.

00:30:05   Because people who buy a $45 FTP client, like look, you can go download free ones.

00:30:10   Like Finder can do some of this for you on the Mac.

00:30:14   You can use your whatever hosting service web interface, right?

00:30:17   Like you don't have to go and spend 45 bucks on transmit.

00:30:19   Panic has made a business of it and very successful over the years and yes it's

00:30:23   an expensive app and it was expensive on iOS and they clearly have a threshold

00:30:28   that an indie developer may not have because they have a staff and a fancy

00:30:32   office we've all been there but I guess what I'm saying and I am fully aware

00:30:39   that like the danger in this argument is making about this this one app and and I

00:30:43   hope I'm not falling into that because I don't want to but I do think that if if

00:30:48   If the iPad wants to attract these types of users, it needs these types of apps.

00:30:54   And for a bunch of complicated reasons, Panix pricing is definitely one of them.

00:30:59   But you wrote off the race to the bottom, I don't think you can do that.

00:31:03   And even on the iPad, this app…

00:31:05   No, I wasn't writing it off.

00:31:06   I was just saying that that's not something worth getting into because we've spoken

00:31:10   about that a billion times.

00:31:11   Like there's no point talking about it.

00:31:12   Yeah, but it is a factor.

00:31:13   We'll just leave it at that.

00:31:15   But that's why it's not worth talking about.

00:31:17   can all agree upon the fact that that is a problem, right? But it's not worth discussing.

00:31:21   You can get this wrong on both sides. I think we're, I think we're trying to find that middle

00:31:25   ground. Like it is worrisome. But I agree with Federica, this isn't like the death blow

00:31:30   to pro apps. But at the same time, like I don't think this can just go by as like, oh,

00:31:35   well, you know, it didn't work for one company. Because I do think this points to like fundamental

00:31:39   problems with the with Mac power users, not the podcast, but the people like those types

00:31:47   of users adopting something like the iPad as a full-time tool because those users who

00:31:56   expect this sort of app and this sort of polish, if that's not there on the other platform,

00:32:02   then the other platform doesn't look as nice to them.

00:32:04   And that may be shallow or that may be silly, but I do think it's a real factor.

00:32:10   And I'm just, I mean, part of this is I'm just sad because I used it and I know a lot

00:32:13   of people who do and it's a bummer that it's going to go away at some point.

00:32:16   The last thing that I want to say about this is there seems to me as if there's a common

00:32:30   aspect between some long-time Mac developers when they approach iOS.

00:32:39   I've seen apps do this before and maybe to an extent panic fell into this problem as

00:32:45   as well, that they try to apply the same lessons that they learned on the Mac before the App

00:32:54   Store, and they just bring them to iOS and to the iPad. For example, the thinking that

00:33:09   all iPad users, they care about beautiful design, or maybe setting a single price once

00:33:17   and then not experimenting with it ever again. Or maybe enabling new iOS features months

00:33:26   after the release. And I think what these developers are discovering is that the iOS

00:33:32   App Store, especially now with the iPad Pro, is a very different ecosystem than the Mac.

00:33:37   the Mac from the 90s and the Mac before the iPhone and before the iPad. And that the way,

00:33:43   you know, we are no longer in the, I don't know if you guys ever watched the documentary

00:33:50   Macheads from how many years ago, I don't remember, but it feels to me as if a lot of

00:33:55   developers, not panic maybe, but a lot of them, when I see them on Twitter arguing about

00:34:01   iOS. They still are in that kind of mentality of Apple as the underdog and the Mac head

00:34:08   type of era, and it's not like that anymore. And the App Store now is different. It requires

00:34:14   constant experimentation. It requires staying on top of changes to iOS. You just cannot

00:34:20   say because my app was successful on the Mac, now I take the same arguably beautiful design

00:34:27   and attention to detail and the same price, and then, well, it just didn't work on the

00:34:31   App Store, so it's totally Apple's fault.

00:34:34   I don't think it's easy like that.

00:34:36   And I think it's important to stay on top of the fact that the iOS audience is just

00:34:42   different and iPad users have different needs.

00:34:46   And the apps that I've been taking a look at recently as alternatives to transmit, one

00:34:54   One of them has three different versions on the App Store, and one for business, one for

00:34:59   standard users, one for education.

00:35:02   And the app is File Browser.

00:35:04   File Browser has been around for years.

00:35:05   They obviously build a successful business on top of this, and they are relentless in

00:35:12   implementing new iOS features and understanding, listening to the user base, and, you know,

00:35:17   it's not the most beautiful app ever, but it's still around, and it works with iOS 11.

00:35:23   So I guess it's a matter of understanding the differences between iOS and the Mac as

00:35:29   two platforms, even if they're made by the same company.

00:35:34   But I don't think the sort of the nostalgic, the old Mac way of selling software, I don't

00:35:42   think it applies to iOS.

00:35:44   And I think you're, I think you've got a bunch of chocolate in your peanut butter there.

00:35:47   Like I agree like the business model and the needing to have new feature support like Mac

00:35:53   developers have gotten out of that habit because the Mac hasn't had radical new UI features

00:35:57   in a really long time.

00:35:59   But I think that's separate from things like polish and good design that I do think users

00:36:05   care about like these apps you're talking about.

00:36:07   They're gonna be in the show notes.

00:36:09   Most of them are like ugly as hell.

00:36:11   And I don't know if but they work.

00:36:14   They do work.

00:36:15   only option because panic's out of the game. But I think people...

00:36:20   Even before, even if a chance mint was still around, but it didn't work with drag and drop

00:36:25   and files.

00:36:26   But people care about the design and pause, especially high-end Mac users that Apple wants

00:36:31   to see them adopt the iPad. Like, you can't write it off completely. There has to be balance,

00:36:37   I think, and I think that's what your argument is missing, that you have to have support

00:36:40   for drag and drop and these new things. 100% like, still, you know, I go to use an app

00:36:45   that doesn't support something new and iOS. I'm like, what are you doing? It's so frustrating.

00:36:50   But on the other hand, an app should, a developer should be able to spend the time and the effort

00:36:55   to make something look nice. And if they can't afford it, then their pricing model is wrong.

00:37:00   You know, like that there all those things have to be in balance. Panic, I think went

00:37:04   too far in one direction, thinking of making it too much like a Mac app. But I think these

00:37:09   other apps maybe go too far the other way where they're just focused on

00:37:12   utility and the UI leaves so much to be desired that I mean people will write

00:37:19   apps off based on the screenshots in the App Store and if an app is hideous

00:37:23   looking and sadly most of these are then they're not they're never going to be

00:37:28   able to attract some of those users some of them will pick them up because they

00:37:32   need a tool to finish clearly but some users are gonna write them off because

00:37:36   as the design. I don't know if... that balance is really hard to strike and

00:37:42   clearly it's been a real struggle for lots of developers over the history of

00:37:46   iOS because you have all these factors and it's all compounded the fact that

00:37:50   the iOS App Store is a pressure cooker. I would like to see some good

00:37:56   examples of apps in this space that strike that balance a little bit better.

00:37:59   I would like to just say at this point that I think you're going too hard on

00:38:04   the design of these applications. I think that they are just basic. I think

00:38:07   hideous is the wrong word to describe them. They are just extremely basic. I don't

00:38:13   think that they are hideous. They're not like incredibly exciting and beautiful

00:38:17   like panic but they're not... Fine, whatever. I mean so you disagree with the adjective

00:38:21   but I think my point stands that if you are used to something like a $45 super

00:38:26   polished app on the Mac and your only option on iOS is something that is okay

00:38:33   so it's not hideous, but it's basic or clunky, then that doesn't feel as nice.

00:38:38   And so maybe you don't trust the app as much or you don't feel like it's the right fit for whatever reason.

00:38:44   Well, that's a way to go about it for sure. I disagree with that, honestly. I think

00:38:50   for all the reasons that I mentioned before, I think it's a

00:38:56   I don't think that the design is

00:39:01   is really the problem here, but the problem, from my opinion, and now I don't work at

00:39:05   Panica, I have no idea what the numbers are, but it feels to me as if that way of using

00:39:16   software primarily, even if alternatives exist primarily because of the design, is, I don't

00:39:23   think it necessarily applies to iOS these days. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but

00:39:30   I'm looking at companies, for example, like Ulysses, and they have been able to adapt.

00:39:34   They were around on the Mac for years, and they are going through some changes.

00:39:39   But you know, and they're just one example.

00:39:43   I think the real problem here is the things that Apple did wrong years ago, for sure,

00:39:49   but also a lack of experimentation, of playing around with different things.

00:39:58   But yeah, we cannot for sure. So at some point this whole discussion is, you know, I don't

00:40:04   know how useful it can be to just speculate on what Panic did or didn't do wrong.

00:40:10   So yeah, I do. Before we move away from this, I do just want to point out a couple of things

00:40:15   because I mean Panic, we're up front with it. Last year, Transmit made $35,000, which

00:40:23   I would expect for some people in most cities in the US, like that isn't enough money.

00:40:27   And I understand that. Of course, we don't know what it made in the years prior. We're expecting

00:40:32   it probably made more because it lasted for the amount of time that it lasted for. So the revenue

00:40:38   decreased over time. But I also want to just mention, because I think it is worth bringing up,

00:40:42   that in the same paragraph, they talk about paid upgrades. So it is the idea, I mean, the idea that

00:40:49   Federico is touching on is the idea of staying too fixed in to your specific ways that you believe

00:40:59   that your business works. I'm sure they thought about it, I would like to believe they thought

00:41:05   about it, but Transmit really, really does feel like an app that you could get people to pay

00:41:11   monthly for. And for whatever reason they decided not to do that. But there is a concern here that

00:41:19   potentially they canned it because they were thinking about their their tried and true way

00:41:24   of doing business. I mean which is the exact same reason why Panic pulled a bunch of their

00:41:29   applications from the Mac App Store was because they couldn't do paid upgrades. So that is their

00:41:35   business model and has worked very well for them. But it is I think worth pointing out that like

00:41:40   That is not the business model for app stores now.

00:41:44   So that is something that I think is worth just highlighting

00:41:48   because we have those pieces of information

00:41:50   from them themselves.

00:41:51   Do we want to stop talking about this now?

00:41:54   - Yes, please.

00:41:55   - All right, Federico, can you just very quickly

00:41:57   rattle off your alternatives?

00:41:58   - File browser is the one that I mentioned,

00:42:02   and Coda, and I would also say iFiles,

00:42:06   which supports Rackspace, Cloud Files too,

00:42:08   which is our CDN that we use our Mac stories.

00:42:10   And these are, when it comes to FTP,

00:42:12   I would say the three choices that I would try.

00:42:16   And I go into more detail with screenshots

00:42:18   and I explain a bunch of features

00:42:21   in the next iPad Diaries, sorry.

00:42:24   I also wanna give a shout out to Documents by Readdle,

00:42:28   which in theory supports SFTP,

00:42:31   but I wasn't able to make it connect to my FTP server.

00:42:35   But it's also a basic file manager, which I could see the argument here that in the

00:42:40   age of files you probably don't need documents, with the exception that documents handles

00:42:45   zip archives, which in 2018, you know, files still doesn't.

00:42:52   And also I want to mention devon.think, which is on the other end of the file manager spectrum.

00:42:59   It's an advanced file manager.

00:43:00   You can do things like automations to save new files in different formats.

00:43:05   It supports web archives, which are one of the features that Mac users should be familiar

00:43:11   with the ability to save a web page offline.

00:43:14   It also supports multiple databases syncing with an encrypted database via Dropbox.

00:43:20   It's what I use to organize my research material, but it doesn't support FTP for uploads and

00:43:26   file transfers.

00:43:28   So this is just a file manager.

00:43:31   So I'm not sure if I will stick with a single FTP client and file manager on my iPad, but

00:43:40   I would say these are the alternatives that you can play around with right now.

00:43:44   And File Browser is the only one that integrates with the File Provider extension, so you can

00:43:53   actually connect and browse your FTP server in the Files app.

00:43:58   All right, let's take our first break.

00:43:59   then we're going to talk about something and then we're probably going to argue again.

00:44:04   So you know, you've got that to look forward to. Today's show is brought to you by Anchor,

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00:45:35   So Federico, in a stunning break from convention, you have decided for the first time to try

00:45:44   a third party iPad keyboard. I know you have no experience in this whatsoever. What did

00:45:50   you buy? How is it treating you?

00:45:52   Well, you know, for years I've been using an Apple Smart Keyboard as my only iPad keyboard

00:45:57   and I thought, you know, maybe it's time for a change, maybe I should try some of those

00:46:01   third-party iPad keyboards. And this is not really the truth, I'm not sure how I can keep

00:46:10   pretending. So, new iPad keyboard, I've been using the Slim Convo, the Logitech one, we

00:46:18   We talked about it in our live show, connected live from Chicago back in October 2017, so

00:46:25   you can go back and listen to that one.

00:46:27   I've been very happy with the Slink Combo at my desk.

00:46:32   I haven't been happy with the Slink Combo when I needed to use the iPad in my car or

00:46:37   on my lap or when I was on the couch or something.

00:46:41   And the obvious solution, because I don't want to use the Smart Keyboard for a bunch

00:46:46   of reasons that I also talked about in the past, such as the lack of backlit

00:46:50   illumination or the non-adjustable viewing angle. And the only solution was,

00:46:57   once again, the Bridge keyboard, the keyboard, the Mac-like, the MacBook-like

00:47:04   keyboard that, for example, Jason Snell uses. But Bridge keyboards are quite

00:47:10   well known on Twitter and other tech podcasts for their unreliability.

00:47:16   It's not uncommon that you buy a bridge keyboard and you need to return it

00:47:21   because it's dropping keystrokes when you type. This happened to me twice in

00:47:27   the past and that's why I really did not want to try the bridge lottery again.

00:47:33   I didn't want to see if the third time was a charm. But spoiler alert, it was.

00:47:39   totally worked. I realized, as I was talking, so here's how it happened, I was talking to

00:47:44   Steve Tran Smith on iMessage, and he had been tweeting about the fact that he was waiting

00:47:50   for a bridge keyboard, and I went on Amazon Italy. So Amazon Italy never had the bridge

00:47:57   keyboards before. I went on Amazon Italy just, you know, just out of curiosity, and I saw

00:48:02   that the Space Gray one for the 12.9 was in stock, and this was Sunday evening, and it

00:48:10   had Monday morning delivery.

00:48:14   And there were only a handful left in stock, and I thought, you know, maybe I should try

00:48:20   again.

00:48:21   And worst case scenario, I'm just going to return it, because returning something on

00:48:25   Amazon is not too bad.

00:48:29   So I got one and Steve was quite upset that mine was coming before his keyboard because

00:48:37   he's been tweeting for like a week about this bridge keyboard and mine just showed up like

00:48:42   12 hours later. And yeah, it worked. This time it appears that I have a functioning

00:48:52   bridge keyboard that does not drop. This is actually, you know, the chances are, you know,

00:48:59   you have far better chances of winning, I think, a WWDC ticket than getting a working

00:49:05   bridge keyboard. But yeah, it seems to be working. It reconnects to my iPad when you

00:49:11   open the lid, it connects, it doesn't drop any keys, and it's just as beautiful as the

00:49:19   keyboard I remember seeing Jason use with his iPad Pro. And so far, I'm happy with it.

00:49:26   I can use the iPad on my lap, I can use it on a desk, I can use it in my car, because

00:49:31   it's like using a laptop, which is why people on Twitter yesterday were really upset.

00:49:37   So I want to give you a breaking piece of news.

00:49:39   I went to Amazon to see if it's available here, because I'm thinking I might be willing

00:49:45   to try it again, now I don't have to ship it to the US if it's broken, which was the

00:49:49   problem that I had with the last two that I tried.

00:49:53   But the Amazon Echo Spot is now available in the UK.

00:49:57   I just wanted to tell you that information.

00:49:59   I've been...

00:50:00   I'm tempted.

00:50:01   I've been enjoying mine.

00:50:02   I have the spot on...

00:50:03   Yeah?

00:50:04   Yeah, yeah.

00:50:05   Jeff Bezos calls, took you in at night.

00:50:07   Alright, I'm tempted.

00:50:09   Yeah, you can drop in on me if you want to.

00:50:13   You know, okay, we're gonna roll diversion here.

00:50:15   I was thinking about this.

00:50:16   Like I watched a review on The Verge about the Echo Spot recently and they're like, "Oh,

00:50:20   if you don't mind having a camera in your bedroom."

00:50:22   "Oh, I don't want a camera in my bedroom." And then I thought, "Oh, all of our phones

00:50:26   have cameras in them, whatever." And then kind of moved on from that feeling for a little

00:50:30   bit. Right? Because it hits you, because you're like, "Oh man, I don't want a camera in my

00:50:36   bedroom." And then you remember, I know, that we have four cameras in our bedrooms because

00:50:43   each of our phones have two of them. Right? So, like, whatever.

00:50:46   Or six, so you get two cameras on the back of your phone.

00:50:49   Oh no!

00:50:50   Multi-pat lifestyle.

00:50:51   got some big problems and iPads as well but anyway maybe I'll give it a go maybe I'm gonna

00:50:56   build up an Amazon right now including an Echo Spot and a bridge keyboard but like we can think

00:51:00   about that later and the reason is because I had one and I loved the form factor what I didn't love

00:51:07   is the fact that the keys didn't work but the form factor is fantastic the reason being because it's

00:51:14   a laptop and laptops, spoiler alert, is a great form factor. So the people say, "Oh,

00:51:21   you just got a laptop, why don't you get a MacBook?" That is the argument that people

00:51:26   make and I feel like I can't believe, I still feel that this argument needs to be made.

00:51:32   And like Federico, "Will you say it with me? I have it in the document here. Will you

00:51:37   say it with me, it's all about the OS, right? That's what it's about. It's okay to prefer

00:51:50   iOS over the Mac. I think it's fine. I just don't understand why some people, and this

00:51:56   is what I've been trying to engage with these people on Twitter, like asking "Why do you

00:52:02   send me this reply? Why do you think it was necessary to tell?" I've been trying, because

00:52:06   Because I feel like if you maybe sometimes if you try to diffuse the situation with these

00:52:10   people maybe it helps. Because for example, let's say someone on Twitter tweets at me,

00:52:16   "Congratulations. Congratulations. You just invented the laptop." And I can feel the sarcasm.

00:52:22   I can feel, I can feel the tone, right? And so I reply to these people, "Why do you do

00:52:27   this? Why do you feel, what's this tweet necessary? What's the purpose of your tweet? What are

00:52:33   you hoping to change with this tweet? That's what I've been trying to understand. Like,

00:52:39   it's an iPad, it runs iOS, and it's got a keyboard attachment that makes it look like

00:52:44   a laptop. It makes it like a laptop, but it's not a computer that runs a Mac OS. Now, what

00:52:51   is your problem if I'm using an iPad with a keyboard? That's what I don't understand.

00:52:56   I felt that we were past this point of some people just prefer MacBooks, which is fine.

00:53:03   And some people prefer iPads, which is also fine. I don't understand why some people feel

00:53:11   the need to reply in that way on Twitter. And when you reply to them, they don't reply

00:53:17   back. So all the people that I asked, why do you do this? Why do you feel like it's

00:53:21   necessary for you to point out to me that I made the iPad into a laptop and they never

00:53:27   reply. Because maybe they just want to get into a fight and they just want to annoy you

00:53:32   on Twitter. Which is sad, because I would like to have a conversation with these people.

00:53:36   I would like to say, "What makes you angry? What makes you angry?"

00:53:41   Or, you know, maybe they realized that they were making a dumb joke and obviously it didn't

00:53:45   work because it only annoyed you. Like, that could be a big reason for a lot of people.

00:53:49   lot of people aren't trying to upset you, they're just making a joke. But there are people that like

00:53:54   make these comments and they believe that what you're doing is saying that the Mac is bad.

00:53:59   No, no.

00:54:00   Like I don't, it doesn't, the thing is it doesn't have to be one or the other, right? Like

00:54:05   again, you know, maybe I'll just throw out some reasons again why me and Federico would quite like

00:54:12   to attach keyboards to our iPads that make them look like MacBooks. The reason is is because we

00:54:18   We both prefer iOS.

00:54:20   We like the ultimate portability that comes along with it.

00:54:23   And this is in two different ways, the way that I look at it.

00:54:25   My iPad is more portable than my Macs.

00:54:29   But also, my iPhone is the most portable device of all.

00:54:32   And it shares a consistent OS and experience with my iPad.

00:54:37   Like, they're very similar.

00:54:38   They use the same applications.

00:54:40   Except if you need Control Center, there's that.

00:54:44   So deal with that, Myke.

00:54:45   Deal with it.

00:54:46   is still the same control center. How do you get to control center on the Mac? Please give

00:54:52   me that information. Yeah, they should have control center for the Mac actually. Right,

00:54:57   but this is my point, right? Like I'm not saying they're the same swipes and taps. And

00:55:01   I'm just mocking control center, you're just touchy. I know you are. Yes I am. They have

00:55:07   built-in cellular connections, iPads do, which is really lovely. There are many, many, many

00:55:11   reasons. And the thing is, like, we just, this is just what we like. And it would be

00:55:16   really nice if they could make a keyboard that really worked very well. So Stephen,

00:55:20   why don't you ask your question?

00:55:23   What if Apple made an iOS powered laptop? Jason Snell has been writing a bunch about

00:55:28   this. I think it's a really interesting idea. Would you be interested in, you know, say

00:55:32   a 12 inch MacBook or a 13 inch MacBook form factor, but it ran iOS instead of Mac OS?

00:55:41   Here's my question before I answer, because I need the specifics.

00:55:46   Would the screen be detachable?

00:55:48   I mean, Apple doesn't believe in that, so I would say no.

00:55:52   Just for the sake of our conversation.

00:55:54   So my answer would be, I would consider that device for the home, but I would still like

00:56:03   a screen that I can detach.

00:56:04   Because I really like the idea of the convertible, that I can pick up the screen and use it with

00:56:09   the software keyboard or put it into the thing and it becomes a laptop.

00:56:14   I really like that but I would still consider because I want an iOS laptop

00:56:19   even if I won't buy one I want the iOS laptop to exist and you know yeah.

00:56:26   I would 100% buy it and replace my 12.9 with it and keep using my 10.5 wherever I go in the world.

00:56:32   I think it'd be really interesting and Apple seems allergic to

00:56:36   experimenting with form factor on the notebooks like there's no two and ones

00:56:39   there's no touchscreen on the max and and the further we get into this the

00:56:44   more it seems like that all is a mistake that these devices are popular on the

00:56:49   other side of the fence and Apple doesn't have anything to show for it so I

00:56:54   find that the conversation really interesting there'll be links in the

00:56:56   show notes Jason Snell has written two columns at Macworld basically one

00:57:00   listing the pros and the other listing the cons is a very interesting approach

00:57:04   But I agree with you all that this would be, it'd be great if this existed.

00:57:08   I think it would do a lot for the platform, but the trade-off is that portability, right?

00:57:14   The bridge keyboard and these other keyboards are attractive because you can separate them

00:57:18   and you still just have a tablet, right?

00:57:20   So you can still use it in bed or in the car or anywhere else.

00:57:23   Whereas a notebook, at least the way Apple makes notebooks, those two things are joined

00:57:27   permanently.

00:57:28   So it seems like that's the distinction.

00:57:30   Federico, what is not so great about the bridge compared to some of the other products that you've tried?

00:57:35   It doesn't have an Italian layout, so I'm stuck with the stupid return key from the American layout

00:57:43   That is a stupid return key

00:57:46   You know it's not the L-shaped one that we have in Italy

00:57:51   So and here oh, yeah, we have it too nice. Well. I mean of course Europe once again teaching the rest of the world

00:57:58   world. Oh man, so much. I mean, if we haven't encouraged enough email yet…

00:58:08   After last week, with the comments about the…

00:58:12   No, no, we don't talk about that again. We don't talk about it.

00:58:15   I feel like I can…

00:58:17   You can take on the world!

00:58:18   I can't survive anything at this point.

00:58:22   Except a house fire.

00:58:23   No, why would you say that?

00:58:26   God, no!

00:58:28   [LAUGHTER]

00:58:31   You know, I tried to explain the situation to Sylvia.

00:58:37   She was like, why?

00:58:39   Why?

00:58:41   Her question was, why do you still like people?

00:58:45   Something like that.

00:58:48   Man, she's my kind of person.

00:58:51   Yeah.

00:58:52   So anyway, it doesn't have the Italian keyboard layout.

00:58:58   Because of the way that the hinge is designed, the iPad sits lower than the keyboard, slightly

00:59:06   lower, which makes it more difficult, not impossible, but more difficult to swipe from

00:59:11   the bottom to open the dock and control center, because the keyboard kind of gets in the way.

00:59:17   I saw someone on Twitter saying that they also have a Breached keyboard, and that was

00:59:21   really clever actually. They cut two small pieces of foam and they put it in the two

00:59:29   attachments of the keyboard to raise the iPad a bit higher so that it's not a problem when

00:59:36   swiping from the bottom. And I might consider something like that. But my foam cutting skills

00:59:41   are not too great. Not that I know, I'm just imagining. It's Bluetooth, so it doesn't have

00:59:48   a smart connector and that means that, well, it means that you don't get all the latest

00:59:54   smart connector issues on iOS 11, but it also means that you got to wait a couple of seconds

01:00:00   for the keyboard to connect, which is…

01:00:03   And the battery.

01:00:04   And the battery, and the battery.

01:00:05   You got to think about that.

01:00:07   You got to charge it every couple of months at least.

01:00:10   And finally, this is a design flaw I think of the bridge keyboard.

01:00:14   doesn't have the keyboard slash case, it doesn't have like a lip on the side. So if you want

01:00:21   to open, because it's got a magnetic connection and it's quite tight, but it doesn't have

01:00:27   like a cutout to place your fingertip and detach them, it can be a little tricky to

01:00:34   open the Brydge keyboard when it's closed on top of the iPad screen. It's not like MacBooks

01:00:41   for example, they have a cutout, so you can place your finger and raise the screen. This

01:00:46   doesn't have a cutout. So I've noticed since yesterday, I've already noticed that, for

01:00:52   example, Sylvia said, "So show me this keyboard." I was like, "Hold on, I cannot find a way

01:00:57   to open it," because I was kind of struggling.

01:01:00   You used to do that tiny crowbar with you at all times.

01:01:02   Yeah. Or I should grow a single fingernail longer than the others.

01:01:07   Please don't do that. Whatever you do, please don't do that.

01:01:11   Some people do that. I always thought it's super gross.

01:01:14   I know, I really don't want you to do it.

01:01:16   I think it's for different reasons besides an iPad keyboard, but I'm not sure.

01:01:20   Oh no, no, no.

01:01:21   No, I don't know what that is.

01:01:24   I don't want to know. I want to move on. Please. So anyway, iOS laptop please. Bridge keyboard

01:01:30   finally works, but if you want to get one, please be aware that it's a lottery. And as

01:01:36   with other lotteries, if you don't win you're gonna be sad, only in this case you also gotta

01:01:40   return a keyboard to Amazon.

01:01:41   And if my Twitter, I'm making a very timely joke here, if my Twitter timeline is anything

01:01:45   to profess to, if you do win a lottery, you can tweet about it and get people to retweet

01:01:50   you in the hopes that they will give you some money. I don't know if you guys have been

01:01:54   seeing this, but this keeps popping up in my timeline, that guy who won like the 400

01:01:58   million dollar thing, whether it's true or not, like there's a tweet going around that

01:02:03   he's going to give people money if they retweet it or something.

01:02:05   Really?

01:02:06   I can't, yeah.

01:02:07   Well, I'm not giving anybody any money if they retweet my keyboard key pictures.

01:02:14   That's not going to happen.

01:02:16   You will give them hell though if they argue with you.

01:02:18   No, I'm just trying to reason with them.

01:02:20   I'm just trying to reason with them.

01:02:21   I have a human conversation.

01:02:23   That's what I want to do.

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01:04:05   Gentlemen, I would like to pose a hypothetical to you, which I think ties a thread through

01:04:12   some of the conversations that we've been having today, and also maybe highlights the

01:04:18   fact that we haven't really seen anything in the way of rumors of iPad hardware leaks

01:04:25   or anything like that.

01:04:26   I was about to say yes, a duck-sized Myke would win against a horse-sized Steven.

01:04:32   But it's not about that.

01:04:33   It's about that.

01:04:34   Okay, okay.

01:04:35   It's about that.

01:04:36   It's not about that.

01:04:37   It's not about that.

01:04:38   Here's my hypothetical situation.

01:04:39   So now that Apple is getting themselves such good press and customer satisfaction from

01:04:46   professionals in rededicating themselves to making pro Mac hardware, will they therefore

01:04:53   take their foot off the pedal for pro iPad hardware, considering that the pro iPad market

01:05:00   is less represented in the technology press.

01:05:04   So another question to this, can there be pro Macs and pro iPads at the same time?

01:05:09   Okay. So there's a few things to unpack here. The first one I think I'm mildly concerned

01:05:21   about the lack of any tangible rumors about the specifics of new iPads this year. Now,

01:05:31   I don't think last year the rumors mentioned the stuff like ProMotion, but I remember that

01:05:39   there were rumors of 10.5 and new iPad form factor, and I wonder if there's any new iPad

01:05:48   hardware in the pipeline coming soon or soonish or if we're gonna have to wait until September

01:05:56   or if we're not gonna get any new iPad in 2018. I want to believe that the iPad release

01:06:06   cycle will not stop, that we're not going back to the days of "it's been two years,

01:06:15   I guess, time for new iPads. So I want to see Apple continue releasing new iPads and

01:06:21   new iPad software features in iOS. So I feel more confident about the software than about

01:06:27   the hardware at this point. But the other question is, what about the relationship with

01:06:35   the press and the fact that the tech press has liked the renewed commitment to the pro-Mac

01:06:45   hardware line and community.

01:06:48   And the problem here, I think, is that the usual circle of tech press that Apple works

01:06:57   with, they tend to be Mac users and they tend to be pro-Mac users.

01:07:03   At least it's very common, you know, whether it's a website like The Verge or TechCrunch

01:07:08   or someone like John Gruber.

01:07:10   Podcasts like this one!

01:07:12   Right?

01:07:13   Like me and Steven are both very happy about this, right?

01:07:17   Like about the iMac Pro and the Mac Pro and stuff like that.

01:07:19   But especially when you consider...

01:07:20   Yeah, it's everywhere.

01:07:21   When you consider... when it's time, for example, to see the new hardware, those websites are

01:07:29   going to be more excited, I think, about new Pro Max than new Pro iPads, if only because

01:07:36   they use them more. It's like if you send me an iMac Pro for review, I would be happy.

01:07:43   It's a new Apple machine, it's a powerful one, but it wouldn't be over the moon, because

01:07:47   I don't use it every day. And I guess the same happens with the iPad. So I do wonder,

01:07:55   Apple sort of say let's put the iPad on hold for now, let's totally focus on the Mac and

01:08:02   make sure that we get good press, we get good coverage, so that we can sort of counter all

01:08:12   the negative press that we got in 2017 until we announced that we were committed to the

01:08:17   Mac and all the problems that happened with the MacBook Pro for example.

01:08:21   That would make sense, but I'm concerned about it as an iPad user.

01:08:25   But on the other hand, my counter question would be, are we sure that doing that wouldn't

01:08:34   create another problem?

01:08:36   Because I do remember, so people have short memory maybe, but I do remember all those

01:08:41   years until iOS 11 saying, "Well, the iPad is dead.

01:08:46   Apple is not going to worry, doesn't care about the iPad anymore.

01:08:50   at iOS, iOS is a joke, the iPad has a computer, it's a joke. And I know, because people have

01:08:56   told me so many times on Twitter and over email. So now that the iPad is fine with iOS

01:09:03   11 and the latest iPad Pros, it doesn't mean that if Apple stops innovating on the iPad,

01:09:10   people will not go back to complaining and to writing blog posts and to saying the iPad

01:09:16   is doomed. So ideally it should be a balance between the two and it should be both because

01:09:23   Apple is a big company with a lot of resources and different teams working on different products.

01:09:34   So I think it would make sense for Apple to cater to the to the Mac aficionados in the

01:09:41   press but also it would make more sense to keep everybody happy so that you get

01:09:48   the Mac people are happy and the iPad people are also happy and so you get no

01:09:52   negative coverage anywhere.

01:09:54   So here's my feeling on this why I think this is okay.

01:09:58   I think that WWDC was the effective Mac roundtable but for iPad

01:10:10   users because we got a ton of new features and new hardware all at the same time. It

01:10:17   was the acknowledgement that professional iPad users also had been in the weeds a little

01:10:25   bit and that things had kind of just slowed down significantly but it wasn't as bad as

01:10:33   it had gotten for Mac users at that point which was why Apple didn't need to come out

01:10:39   and be like, okay, like we have to tell you in advance what we're doing so you'll feel

01:10:46   better, right? I think we kind of got what we wanted for professional iPad users at the

01:10:52   kind of time that we expected to get it. Like if this stuff hadn't been ready for June and

01:10:57   maybe it was going to come out a little bit later, I would have expected them to also

01:11:03   kind of come out and say, "Hey, we're gonna do this." Maybe tack on the iPad stuff on

01:11:12   the end of the Mac roundtable thing or whatever.

01:11:14   By the way, don't leave. We have one more thing.

01:11:17   We're okay. We're okay. And I think the reason that there could be concern on why it is hypothetical

01:11:22   is occurring right now is because all of the attention right now is on pro Mac hardware

01:11:28   because that's what's happening today and there just isn't anything yet and that maybe if this

01:11:35   year continues to go by and we don't get anything on the iPad then it will be cause for concern

01:11:41   but I also you know I said this and I believe this I don't think that we're on an annual cycle

01:11:46   for iPad hardware I think we're on 18 to 24 months which is probably why we haven't seen anything I

01:11:52   I think the earliest that we see any new iPads will be September, but really WWDC is the

01:11:58   story, right?

01:11:59   Like if there are continued improvements, not the scale of 11, because again, as I said

01:12:02   last week, I don't think that's necessary, but if they have continued improvements in

01:12:08   12 for the iPad, then that will be great.

01:12:12   But I guess the other point, and I'll ask this to you, Steven, is it possible for Apple

01:12:16   to focus on both of these professional markets at the same time?

01:12:19   Do they have the capability and capacity to do it?

01:12:22   They they should.

01:12:25   Apple's enormous with lots of resources.

01:12:28   I think when thinking about this topic in preparation, I was reminded of that article

01:12:33   that came out a couple of years ago.

01:12:35   We'll try to dig up the link about Apple's executive structure and how there's not like

01:12:42   Each product is not held ownership by a single person at the very top.

01:12:51   You have software and hardware and marketing, but there's not an executive vice president

01:12:57   of iPad, an executive vice president of iPhone.

01:12:59   Those people are further down the chain, but at the very top, it's a very small number

01:13:04   of people.

01:13:07   article one of the things raised in the conversation about it in the weeks after

01:13:12   it was is Apple sort of does Apple have a choke point at the top is there is

01:13:20   there a bottleneck at the top that they can you know that core group of five or

01:13:25   six people can only focus on so many things at once because they're just five

01:13:28   or six of them and they sort of take turns right hey we're gonna focus on the

01:13:33   Mac for 2017 and the beginning of 2018 and they were going to deal with iPads

01:13:38   later on and you see this cycle if you look over time if you sort of if you

01:13:44   sort of blur the edges in this current like 2016 2017 thing which I think is

01:13:49   very clearly now I think Apple Park derailed the company in a way they did

01:13:53   not anticipate and did not prepare for I still think we're kind of getting back

01:13:57   on track after getting that campus done but if you look back this is kind of how

01:14:01   it's been for a long time. There's a TikTok to these things where some things have the

01:14:06   attention of Apple and then the spotlight focuses somewhere else and they circle back

01:14:10   to that other thing. The only thing that supersedes all that is the iPhone of course, right? It

01:14:15   has an annual cycle no matter what there will be a new iPhone every September come what

01:14:20   may. It will happen. I think Apple should and can and like they should have a Mac and

01:14:30   an iPad Pro story that are in parallel.

01:14:34   The Gabbles should be able to chew gum and walk at the same time and for whatever reason

01:14:39   they can't.

01:14:41   My suspicion is that that doesn't have much to do with hardware.

01:14:47   That it is much more about software.

01:14:51   That Mac OS and iOS are developed in tandem with each other.

01:14:57   But because iOS has to be ready for the new iPhone,

01:15:02   I don't know, there's something in there

01:15:04   that just makes me feel like they struggle

01:15:08   to focus equally throughout the year,

01:15:12   and that software is the bigger,

01:15:15   the bigger sufferer there.

01:15:18   But I don't know, I wish they could.

01:15:20   I wish that every WWDC, it could be like last year,

01:15:23   and everyone's happy all the time,

01:15:25   but Apple doesn't seem to be able to do that

01:15:27   whatever reason and maybe it has to do with the press cycle maybe it has to do

01:15:31   with the small executive team but I think that they should be able to move

01:15:37   these things in parallel without any issue but it's not the case. So it's

01:15:45   worth mentioning because I like to talk about this wherever I can Apple still

01:15:48   does sell more iPads than they do Macs and I mean I'm just gonna throw

01:15:54   something out there. I reckon the Apple probably sell more iPad Pros than they

01:15:59   will iMac Pros. But does that seem wild? That feels extremely

01:16:03   possible just based purely upon how much they cost, right? More than anything else.

01:16:07   I mean revenue is a different thing but you know you're thinking about how many

01:16:12   customers you want to have and then how much money you can make from the

01:16:14   customers over the lifetime etc etc. And I would think that with the current

01:16:20   trajectory of the iPad which is positive where it hasn't been for years it will be a terrible

01:16:27   time for them to take their foot off the gas and it really does seem like Tim Cook is a

01:16:34   believer of the iPad so I would I mean my overall takeaway from this is I would be incredibly

01:16:40   surprised if Apple decided to because a few I don't know if knee should be the word but

01:16:49   like because a bunch of technology publications were happy about this that they would change

01:16:55   their entire business because I don't think that that is a great idea and of course this is only

01:17:01   a hypothetical that we have posed right so like I'm arguing against my own question but that was

01:17:07   my question in the first place but I would be surprised to see them be like oh so people love

01:17:13   those Mac Pros, well let's just make those! Like that's all we need to do. I would be

01:17:18   super surprised to see that occur, especially at a time where the iPad is starting to show

01:17:23   positive signs that it hasn't in many, many years.

01:17:26   And 18 months is fine for that. Like I agree with you, I think...

01:17:29   I totally think that is fine. Yearly software updates and 18 month hardware updates, that

01:17:34   works perfectly fine for me. I don't need more than that. I don't need an iPad every

01:17:39   year.

01:17:40   don't think that anybody should be worried that it's January 16th and we haven't heard

01:17:45   iPad rumors. If you're expecting a new iPad Pro in March, you've lost your mind. That's

01:17:51   just not the way this works.

01:17:52   Well, because that's less than a year since the last one, right? It's like nine months

01:17:55   or something.

01:17:56   Yeah, they did that in the early days, but that's not how it is anymore. That's totally

01:17:58   fine because the iPad hardware, yes, we'd all like to see new things, and I think we

01:18:02   all have desires for certain features, but it's great. It's not like the iPad Pro is

01:18:07   hurting from a hardware perspective right now and so yeah if it's September

01:18:11   and we don't see anything you know it's the end of the year we don't see

01:18:14   anything and they don't make it until next March you know that's you know 20

01:18:18   months or so that's probably on the longer end of things but I think at this

01:18:23   point it's fine I think what I think what we all need to be looking for is

01:18:27   those trends of wherever the iPad Pro lands if it's 18 months or so then does

01:18:33   Apple stick to that and is every 18 months when every 18 months comes around

01:18:37   is the update meaningful in a way that matters to its customers? When

01:18:43   Apple does annual iOS updates, does the iPad see something every year, which I

01:18:51   think all three of us want, I think we all believe that it needs, or is the

01:18:55   pattern going to be the way it's been so far and basically every two years you

01:19:00   get new Pro iPad features? And if that's the case then I think we can argue that

01:19:04   that they need to speed that up.

01:19:06   So I think at this point moving forward,

01:19:08   if Apple Park is behind them and they're moving in

01:19:11   and all that stuff, they're done building it

01:19:13   and designing it for the most part,

01:19:16   what do the new patterns become for Mac and iOS hardware?

01:19:20   And does Apple stick to those and do the patterns make sense

01:19:23   and do they meet the needs of the users who make

01:19:26   their livings on these things?

01:19:27   And if so, that's great.

01:19:29   And if not, then we have plenty more

01:19:30   to talk about in future episodes.

01:19:33   If you'd like to find our show notes for this week's episode, go to relay.fm/connected/176.

01:19:39   I want to once more thank our sponsors SaneBox, Anchor and Ting for their support of this

01:19:43   week's episode.

01:19:44   Go to 512pixels.net to find Steven's work online and you can go to MaxStoriesNet.

01:19:50   MaxStoriesNet, that's what it's called.

01:19:52   MaxStories.net to find Federico's work.

01:19:56   This show is a part of Relay FM.

01:19:59   If you only listen to this show, I've listened to a couple of Relay FM shows, go to relay.fm

01:20:02   slash shows and pick something else. I know we're gonna have something else there that you're gonna

01:20:07   enjoy. As always, thank you so much for listening and we'll be back at our new time next week. Until

01:20:14   then, say goodbye guys. Arrivederci. Adios.