170: Playing Chicken with Jony Ive


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:05   From Relay FM, this is Connected, episode 170.

00:00:08   Today's show is brought to you by Pingdom, Ting, and Encapsula.

00:00:12   My name is Myke Hurley.

00:00:13   I am joined by Steven Hackett.

00:00:15   Hello, Steven Hackett.

00:00:17   Hey, Myke.

00:00:17   Welcome back from your time away.

00:00:20   Thank you.

00:00:21   Gave a real big obituary from you last week, which was lovely.

00:00:25   Thank you.

00:00:26   Yeah.

00:00:27   And people may notice Federico is not here,

00:00:29   But Federico's not dead.

00:00:30   It's really a very simple explanation

00:00:32   that he had a shift at the Christmas tree farm

00:00:34   and couldn't get off work to come join us on the show.

00:00:37   - He had to go and move some trees.

00:00:38   Federico's Christmas trees has moved.

00:00:40   They've moved to 435 South Geneva Road.

00:00:45   So, man, it's a deep cut.

00:00:48   - That is a deep cut.

00:00:51   There's some links in the show notes to explain that.

00:00:54   But we should move on.

00:00:56   We should talk about follow-ups.

00:00:57   So this document is full of follow-up

00:00:59   because you were gone last week,

00:01:01   and sometimes what happens on this show is

00:01:04   if someone is missing, then the next week

00:01:06   they just talk about all the stuff

00:01:07   that was on the show the week before

00:01:09   'cause they didn't get to have their say.

00:01:11   And this is what's happening.

00:01:12   But first, I just wanted to quickly revisit

00:01:15   the Spotify library and download limits.

00:01:18   Federico and I talked about that last week

00:01:20   where you can have 10,000 songs in your Spotify library,

00:01:22   but only 3,333 songs downloaded locally.

00:01:27   Basically, we have a ton of email and tweets of people

00:01:30   saying that they've hit this limit.

00:01:32   We kind of talked about, is this theoretical?

00:01:34   Do people really hit it?

00:01:35   People really hit it.

00:01:37   Tyler sent us a link to an article on The Verge

00:01:40   back in May, where Spotify basically

00:01:43   said their quote to The Verge is,

00:01:45   we don't have plans to extend your music limit.

00:01:48   The reason is because less than 1% of users reach it.

00:01:52   I guess the 1% listen to Connected

00:01:54   is the lesson I've learned.

00:01:55   expected that it was like some kind of weird contract thing.

00:01:59   Maybe yeah.

00:02:00   Like that there's some kind of legal requirement that has been imposed upon them, which they

00:02:04   thought was totally fine because who's gonna have more than 10,000 songs on Spotify.

00:02:09   But why would anybody ever delete any music?

00:02:13   Eventually a large percentage of their listener base will get there, right?

00:02:17   Just over time because you're not gonna remove things from your Spotify library because it

00:02:22   doesn't take up any actual space.

00:02:24   So yeah, I find that strange.

00:02:26   - It's super strange.

00:02:29   So we should talk about the HomePod.

00:02:32   As mentioned on last week's show, you were right.

00:02:36   The time, from you predicting this,

00:02:38   the time it came true was one week,

00:02:41   which is extremely annoying.

00:02:42   Yeah, so--

00:02:44   - I just wasn't gonna let this episode go by

00:02:46   without me mentioning the fact

00:02:48   that I accurately predicted the HomePod's delay.

00:02:51   - You did.

00:02:52   So having listened to the episode, I wanted to just point out something that you said.

00:03:00   So you played a fantastic flashback with wonderful dramatic music, which was really just good

00:03:05   work from you. But my favourite thing is in the flashback, I say that they're going to

00:03:11   delay it because they've already missed the holiday season as it is anyway, so it's fine

00:03:14   to delay it because it's too late. Releasing in December is too late for the holiday season.

00:03:20   You said to me on that episode, the previous episode, that they still have time.

00:03:24   You're like, "Oh no, they still have time.

00:03:25   They still have time for the holidays."

00:03:27   Then when the flashback ends, you said that they missed the holiday season, which I thought

00:03:32   was wonderful.

00:03:33   This is just fake news.

00:03:34   It's fake news.

00:03:35   Oh yeah?

00:03:36   Mm-hmm.

00:03:37   Yeah.

00:03:38   Can't prove any of this.

00:03:39   Do you want me to put in a multiple tiered flashback into last week's episode, the week

00:03:43   before?

00:03:44   Like how far are we going to take this?

00:03:46   The most important thing about covering this sort of stuff

00:03:50   is being able to change your mind and denying when you do.

00:03:54   (laughing)

00:03:56   - And pretending like it was my opinion all along.

00:03:58   - Yeah, please, yeah, no, mm, mm, yeah.

00:04:00   So it's delayed, there's no news on that

00:04:04   between now and then, still no iMac Pro,

00:04:06   but they got a couple weeks on that, so.

00:04:09   So congratulations, you were right.

00:04:10   - Thank you. - Good, good job.

00:04:12   - I need to talk to you about your to-do situation.

00:04:15   - Interesting.

00:04:16   I'm upset with both of you, but I'll talk to you first because Federico's not here.

00:04:20   Actually, you know what?

00:04:21   I'm going to address Federico right now.

00:04:23   I can't believe he's using things because he's been so much on the API train, right?

00:04:29   Which is like one of the reasons he left OmniFocus in the first place.

00:04:32   And my theory, the reason he is not here this week is because he's trying to avoid these

00:04:35   questions.

00:04:37   But I promise you, dear listeners, I will continue to ask him these questions.

00:04:41   I think we both will because I need to know why he's switched things.

00:04:44   I honestly don't know.

00:04:45   He's not told us anything. I don't know why he's doing this

00:04:48   And I am as interested as maybe some of you are so

00:04:52   That's why I assume he's not here this week as he is dodging. He's dodging the questions

00:04:56   There's something fishy something fishy going on with that guy, but I need to talk to you

00:05:02   Interesting about remember the about remember the milk so

00:05:06   you've switched from todoist to remember the milk and

00:05:09   You said that like the main reason that you changed

00:05:14   That you switched over was because you were fed up with todoist not having sorting right in your project. Yes

00:05:21   But what confused me about this was a few minutes later

00:05:26   You mentioned the fact that there were other adjustments that you were making like the lack of nested lists

00:05:32   And that's just one you just made an adjustment and remember the milk and you're like, oh it doesn't do it

00:05:37   I'll just change the way I do everything and I and I wondered why

00:05:42   You were what's like just so flippantly willing to make this change for remember the milk

00:05:48   But to do is to you burned it down. I

00:05:50   Did burn to do this down? I think that the the importance of those two things is like vastly different in my mind

00:05:57   Okay, it would be great to have nested list and if remember the milk rolled out today, I would I would utilize it

00:06:02   I don't love the fact that I've had a collapse and list into longer ones

00:06:06   but the sorting by date is like the

00:06:12   the thing in my brain that hurts every time I used to doist.

00:06:17   And honestly, ever since OmniFocus 2 rolled out,

00:06:21   OmniFocus 1 on the Mac did this,

00:06:22   and with 2 they got rid of it.

00:06:23   It is something that just is really critical

00:06:25   to the way that I think and work.

00:06:27   So I get what you're saying, and you're right,

00:06:29   this isn't a clean trade-off.

00:06:31   It's not like, oh, I get this one thing

00:06:32   and there's no downsides.

00:06:34   There are a couple downsides.

00:06:35   I have a cow in my dock looking at me

00:06:37   all the time on my iMac.

00:06:38   That's a downside.

00:06:39   - We gotta come back to that.

00:06:41   yeah the branding is really bad but uh so yeah so I totally get you're saying I

00:06:45   think it's fair but I think for me just the difference in importance between

00:06:49   those two things was enough to make it worthwhile. I was definitely on the same

00:06:54   feeling of you like when I switched from OmniFocus to Todoist it really

00:06:57   frustrated me that project lists weren't sorted in date order they're just they're

00:07:02   sorted in like the order you added stuff is kind of how it's done and at first I

00:07:09   it was going to be a big problem but I personally just adjusted really well and

00:07:12   I don't think about it. Now I just remember that there is a

00:07:16   sort of sorted by adding stuff and like I somehow keep this like mental log of

00:07:21   when I think I may have added an item to my list because I use their seven day

00:07:25   forecast is just my way to know what's coming up. I don't look into

00:07:29   individual projects like that.

00:07:31   Well that's the nice thing about all these different apps is they all do things slightly differently so you can kind of find

00:07:36   you know, what makes sense to you like the reason I don't use things and actually downloaded

00:07:42   the Mac demo of things over the weekend because I know Federico is playing with it. And I

00:07:45   was hoping he'd be on the show so we could talk about it. So like I should get familiar

00:07:49   with the new version. And the reason I don't like things today is the same reason I didn't

00:07:53   like things. Whenever last time I used it like six years ago is that they the way they

00:07:58   handle repeating tasks is really clunky. And for someone who I would have had a guess I'd

00:08:03   I'd probably say easily 40% of what's in my to-do system

00:08:07   are repeating tasks, just 'cause the cycle of our business

00:08:09   and our company, and I do a lot of things

00:08:12   at set times of the week or set times of the month.

00:08:15   That's really important to me,

00:08:16   and things is just super clunky in that regard.

00:08:20   So it's as beautiful as things three is

00:08:21   and as fast and reliable as their syncing is,

00:08:23   that is the bridge too far for things for me.

00:08:28   So it's nice that we can find what makes sense

00:08:32   for the individual uses that we need.

00:08:35   And for me, web automation's a big thing.

00:08:38   Natural language processing's a big thing.

00:08:40   And being able to sort of list by due date.

00:08:43   And so far, the only thing I've found

00:08:46   that clicks all three of those is, remember the milk.

00:08:49   - I want to talk about the branding.

00:08:51   - Okay.

00:08:52   - I know it's like a fun thing to make fun of, right?

00:08:55   Like, we do, and it's like a cow,

00:08:58   and it's like this little scribbled thing,

00:09:00   and it's like, ha ha.

00:09:01   But I have a problem with it.

00:09:04   I wouldn't be able to use this app because of it.

00:09:07   And I know that sounds silly,

00:09:08   but the branding of an application is important to me.

00:09:13   And I think it's important to a lot of people

00:09:16   because otherwise why even bother?

00:09:18   Right?

00:09:19   Why go through the time and effort to brand things tastefully

00:09:24   if it doesn't make a difference to anybody?

00:09:27   We're all getting mad about Dropbox and Todoist

00:09:29   for adding their drawings in.

00:09:31   And that's because like at an underlying level,

00:09:34   they're making changes to their brand

00:09:36   that aren't tasteful to us, right?

00:09:38   Like they are starting to like make shifts

00:09:40   to the way that their brand is represented,

00:09:42   which is not the brand that we signed on to, right?

00:09:46   And so I, my to-do app is the most grown up app that I use.

00:09:51   Like I don't want it characterized

00:09:52   of a poorly drawn cartoon cow.

00:09:54   Like I just, it's so weird to me, man.

00:09:58   Like I don't, like they have nice illustrations

00:10:03   on their website even, right?

00:10:04   Like I looked at some of the stuff in the app,

00:10:06   I've seen the little carton of milk guy,

00:10:09   which is like way better

00:10:10   because he's actually the milk, right?

00:10:13   It's not remember the cow and--

00:10:15   - Well, the cow's where the milk comes from.

00:10:17   - Yeah, but is that what they're saying though?

00:10:19   Like are they telling you just to add something

00:10:21   to your to-do list to go and milk a cow?

00:10:23   That's not actually what that means.

00:10:25   Like remember the milk is like,

00:10:27   Remember to pick up the milk at the store.

00:10:28   But I find it so strange.

00:10:31   Like they clearly have designers who do great work.

00:10:34   Like I'm looking at their website.

00:10:35   Their website is very nice.

00:10:36   Their app looks very nice.

00:10:38   Like it's nice and clean and it follows modern design conventions and stuff like

00:10:41   that. But they hang on to this like old drawing.

00:10:45   It's really confusing to me.

00:10:47   Like I really struggle to want to get my head around it.

00:10:49   Like they even have like on their website, they use an outline of the cow, like in

00:10:55   certain places as if it's the app icon, right? Like, they have a page called upgrade, like

00:11:01   their upgrade page. And you scroll like halfway down and it says badges and widgets and they

00:11:05   have a picture of an outline of the cow. It's like, that's fine too. Why do they use the

00:11:11   illustration? It's so peculiar to me.

00:11:14   Agreed. It's problematic.

00:11:17   And I really like, I couldn't, I wouldn't be able to use it. Like, I don't know, I know

00:11:21   it sounds so silly, but I just wouldn't be able to

00:11:24   bring myself to be like, okay, time to sit down

00:11:28   and do some serious work.

00:11:30   Let's tap on the cartoon cow face.

00:11:32   Like, I don't know, it's very strange.

00:11:35   - No, it's fair.

00:11:36   It's problematic.

00:11:37   I wish that they would, I think people would take

00:11:39   the app more seriously if they had a more serious branding.

00:11:43   And then you're right, the website's really good.

00:11:45   And the rest of their stuff is laid out well

00:11:49   and looks good and their colors are all nice

00:11:51   But that icon is just not great.

00:11:56   So, I'm fully caught up from last week.

00:11:59   Good! I'm glad you listened, but I'm more glad that you're back.

00:12:05   Thank you. Today's show is brought to you by our friends over at Pingdom.

00:12:09   You can start monitoring your websites and servers today at pingdom.com/relayfm.

00:12:13   If you go there, you'll get a 14-day free trial so you can see what all the fuss is about.

00:12:17   and when you enter the offer code connected at checkout you'll get 30% off your first

00:12:21   invoice.

00:12:23   Pingdom is totally focused on making the web faster and more reliable for anybody that

00:12:27   has a website.

00:12:28   It doesn't matter how big your website is, stuff breaks on the internet all of the time.

00:12:33   Pingdom detect 400,000 outages every day and this is just with websites and companies that

00:12:39   use Pingdom.

00:12:40   Of course there's way more that are not being detected by Pingdom, although every single

00:12:43   thing should be because Pingdom is so easy to use, it's so awesome, you just give it a URL that you

00:12:47   want to monitor and they take care of the rest. They are emulating visits to your website from

00:12:52   their 70 global test servers, checking its availability as often as every minute. And

00:12:57   if something goes wrong, you'll be immediately alerted to you can fix that error before the

00:13:01   downtime affects you. You can sign up, Stephen if I'm right, it's like SMS and email and they

00:13:05   have push notifications in their app, right? You monitor us for Relay FM with Pingdom.

00:13:09   them.

00:13:10   Yeah, I mean if we go down, all that stuff happens.

00:13:13   There's no, like if I'm on my phone or my computer, I'm not going to miss it.

00:13:16   They just bombard you to make sure that you know what's going on.

00:13:19   So you can choose what ways you want to be alerted, but I think as Steven has, every

00:13:24   single possible way is the best way.

00:13:26   So you will definitely not miss it.

00:13:28   Then you can be the first to know when your site is down.

00:13:31   That's the great thing about Pingdom.

00:13:33   Check it out today.

00:13:34   PINGDOM.COM/RELAYFM for a 14 day free trial and use the code CONNECTED at checkout to

00:13:40   get a massive 30% off your first invoice.

00:13:44   Thanks to Pingdom for their support of this show and RelayFM.

00:13:49   So let's talk about my RSI.

00:13:53   So you remember a couple of weeks ago I was upset, I was concerned that my iPhone was

00:13:58   breaking my wrists and my hands?

00:14:01   So I made some changes whilst taking a vacation and paid attention to some more stuff and

00:14:07   I actually think it was the Nintendo Switch that was causing me troubles more than my

00:14:11   phone.

00:14:12   I don't think that the phone helped but I think it was mostly down to the Switch.

00:14:16   So I'm making some adjustments to the way that I play, right, less handheld switch time,

00:14:21   more pro controller time and that I think has made a big difference.

00:14:25   I will say that like I still feel some slight pain in my thumb every now and then if I'm

00:14:30   using my phone for long periods of time, right, with the new gestures, but I think I'm getting

00:14:36   more used to it and I think that it wasn't the complete problem. I think it was a bunch

00:14:42   of different things, but the iPhone made up a smaller portion of it, which is great news.

00:14:48   But I did, I made an adjustment, so I'm using the silicone case, right, but I've now bought

00:14:55   something called a PopSocket. Have you ever seen these before?

00:14:58   I have seen these before. They are little things that go on the back of a phone or a

00:15:05   tablet or whatever and they sort of telescope out so you have a place to kind of rest it

00:15:10   between your fingers. It's sort of hard to explain.

00:15:14   Yeah, a bunch of people recommended that I try it because they'd had problems and it

00:15:18   was helping them out. And I had seen these before. Mostly like I would see women with

00:15:24   of plus phones with these on the back, right?

00:15:27   So they'd be, have like large phones,

00:15:29   either large Android phones or large iPhones.

00:15:31   And I was always like, what is this?

00:15:33   Like I'd only ever seen them in that context.

00:15:35   Like I'd seen like a lady grab a phone out of her bag

00:15:39   and she was holding the phone

00:15:40   with this weird thing on the back.

00:15:42   And I was like, how do you like do anything with this?

00:15:44   I just assumed it was like a solid thing, right?

00:15:47   That like it didn't pop down.

00:15:49   'Cause what this thing does, it kind of, I don't know,

00:15:52   it's like half a centimeter flat on the phone.

00:15:54   but then you can pull it out like it extends out

00:15:57   and it gives you a place to hold the phone like the grip it.

00:16:00   So you don't have to put your hand

00:16:01   all the way around the phone.

00:16:03   You can stick it on wherever you want

00:16:04   and it uses that micro suction stuff.

00:16:06   So like it's not glue and you can change move it around.

00:16:09   And I have one on my iPhone now

00:16:11   and I really actually like it quite a lot

00:16:14   because what it's allowing me to do

00:16:16   is adjust my grip quite a lot, which I'm very happy about.

00:16:19   So I can hold it in different ways.

00:16:21   I can hold it in different hands and I can,

00:16:24   I feel like I'm able to kind of hold my phone in a way

00:16:26   that's more comfortable for me.

00:16:28   And also it's an inbuilt stand, which is kind of nice.

00:16:30   You can just stand your phone up now and watch video on it.

00:16:33   And I'm able to get it in and out my pocket very easily.

00:16:36   Like it's not grabbing on anything.

00:16:38   So I might keep it.

00:16:40   I'm thinking about keeping it.

00:16:41   The only problem I have is if you thought

00:16:43   that a camera bump was bad when you put it on the desk,

00:16:46   my phone is unusable on a desk now

00:16:48   because it just, it rocks around like a seesaw.

00:16:51   But I can spin it, which is nice.

00:16:53   So my phone is now, I guess I now have a $1,000 fidget spinner.

00:17:00   You should create a spin the bottle app in conjunction with this.

00:17:04   Not a bad idea.

00:17:05   So I'm looking at their website and I have a lot of important questions.

00:17:08   Mainly what design did you go with?

00:17:11   So I went with, I don't know what the design is called, Monkey Head Galaxy is the one that

00:17:18   I went with.

00:17:19   like a nebula type thing, a space thing,

00:17:23   which I figure you'd like.

00:17:25   Do you see it?

00:17:27   - You can design your own apparently.

00:17:28   - You can. - As the chat room

00:17:29   has put together one with the relay logo on it.

00:17:31   - You can, I didn't, I wanted to just get it quick.

00:17:35   - Sure.

00:17:36   - 'Cause I was just wanting to see if it would be useful

00:17:38   in any way, but I should probably make one, right?

00:17:42   - I think so.

00:17:43   - Yeah, I think I probably will do that at some point.

00:17:47   So yeah, that's what I'm using right now and I like it.

00:17:50   I don't know if I necessarily recommend it to anybody, right?

00:17:53   Like I feel like you would know

00:17:54   if you wanted something like this,

00:17:55   like if you struggle to hold your phone.

00:17:58   I've got it more as just in the same way

00:18:01   that I use a trackpad and a Wacom tablet,

00:18:05   like it gives me the ability to switch hands

00:18:07   and to change the way that I hold things.

00:18:10   And yeah, this phone allows me to do that now

00:18:14   because I don't have to use this thing.

00:18:15   I can still hold my phone normally, or I can pop the little pop socket out and grab onto

00:18:20   it.

00:18:21   I have no idea if it's going to last forever, but for the time being I'm going to keep it

00:18:24   at least until this pain completely goes away, which I know can take a while.

00:18:28   Yeah, well I'm glad it wasn't just the phone.

00:18:31   I didn't have anything else going on when mine acted up, but I think it was, I think

00:18:36   there was some getting used to the phone, and I think when you set up a new phone you're

00:18:39   on it a lot, and now that my usage has sort of settled back down, my hand is mostly okay.

00:18:45   So I too, I think have avoided anything real serious with this phone.

00:18:49   Now at this point in the episode,

00:18:52   everybody is wondering why we have not addressed the very important follow up

00:18:56   item of has Google Docs got drag and drop yet. Um,

00:19:01   and the reason is is because it ends its run and follow up now because it kind

00:19:06   of does. So yes,

00:19:08   Google updated their apps yesterday and have done a couple of things.

00:19:14   one is iPhone 10 support which is nice.

00:19:16   I'm happy about that.

00:19:17   I was actually expecting that would take a lot longer

00:19:20   than what has happened.

00:19:23   So they've added iPhone 10 support

00:19:25   for Sheets and Docs and Slides.

00:19:28   I never use Slides, I choose Sheets and Docs.

00:19:31   So that's what we'll be talking about.

00:19:31   - I don't really have Slides installed.

00:19:33   - Yeah, I don't think I've ever used it.

00:19:34   - I've never used it.

00:19:35   - And they have partly implemented drag and drop.

00:19:42   So they actually said this in their release notes,

00:19:47   but it wasn't completely clear, right?

00:19:50   Like you only really noticed it once you knew

00:19:51   what you were looking for.

00:19:53   You can drag things in to Docs and Sheets.

00:19:57   You cannot drag anything out or around

00:20:00   inside of the applications.

00:20:02   - Oh boy.

00:20:03   - Now, my view on this is like,

00:20:05   this is their step one is how I look at this.

00:20:08   Like this is what they have been able to do.

00:20:12   and I have no doubt that all of this is because of their custom text rendering and all that

00:20:16   sort of stuff. They may never do dragging out, they may only ever have dragging in.

00:20:22   So I'll give you some examples. So with Docs, you drag stuff in, it doesn't keep any rich

00:20:27   text formatting or anything like that as it had previously. Basically it's the same as

00:20:32   copying text and pasting it in. It does, which I do like, you can drag links in and it understands

00:20:37   that they're links and turns them into just text.

00:20:40   And in Sheets, I really like the implementation in Sheets

00:20:43   because you can drag things into individual cells,

00:20:46   which I'm very happy about.

00:20:48   You don't have to like-- one thing I was concerned about

00:20:50   is that you would need to tap the cell,

00:20:53   make the text cursor in there, and then drag it in.

00:20:55   But you don't need to do any of that.

00:20:57   Like, a little plus button shows up

00:20:58   when you drag over any of the cells,

00:21:00   and you can drag the content in.

00:21:02   Now for me personally, this is all I want.

00:21:05   Like I never were, I very, very rarely would drag something,

00:21:09   would need to drag something out of Docs or Sheets.

00:21:12   I'm always just putting information into them.

00:21:15   So I'm kind of cool with this.

00:21:16   Like this is, I wanted them to just do this.

00:21:19   They've done this.

00:21:20   It will be great if they can add the ability to drag out

00:21:23   and around these applications at some point in the future.

00:21:26   But I'm super happy about this.

00:21:28   And I wanted to address something

00:21:30   about Google's implementation of this stuff,

00:21:33   because I see people talking about this,

00:21:36   and we talk about it a lot, right,

00:21:38   but we're making jokes about it, et cetera,

00:21:40   but I think people kind of write off Google

00:21:43   as like, they will never do this.

00:21:46   Like that, I don't think, I think I speak for all of us,

00:21:48   and I don't think any of us believe

00:21:50   that they would necessarily never add this stuff,

00:21:53   because the reason this has been a thing we have spoken about

00:21:57   is because we know the trend of Google,

00:21:59   that they will do it, it just takes them a long time.

00:22:02   that is their history. They will add X feature like split screen or whatever but it just takes them

00:22:08   a long time for whatever reason. So I'd always assumed that drag and drop would come to these

00:22:14   applications but it would just take them as long as it's taken them. Do you agree?

00:22:19   Yeah I don't think there's ever any doubt they're going to get around to doing something.

00:22:24   I think as a matter of that it's just not a huge priority and my guess is

00:22:29   Especially with this like dragging out stuff is that they

00:22:33   very like their apps don't use very much in the way of standard controls or standard layout stuff and

00:22:42   My guess is that anytime something like this happens. There's a lot more work to do on their end

00:22:47   Then other apps we may see on our devices that are more

00:22:52   Closely aligned with what Apple ships in?

00:22:55   the SDK so and I'm mostly okay with it because I'm very confident that the reason that their

00:23:02   Collaboration tools are so good is because they're doing all this weird stuff under the hood, right?

00:23:07   Like they're whatever it is that they've built to make that happen is what makes this development slower

00:23:12   But I'm willing to accept that trade-off like people ask like why don't you use X?

00:23:18   Why don't you use Y instead of Google Docs? And the reason is always the collaboration is nowhere near as good

00:23:25   Agreed. Like it just isn't like no other application can do the real-time collaboration that Google Docs can and you can say oh

00:23:32   I've used this trust me. We've used them all and none of them are as good some of them are fine

00:23:38   But why would we want to have what like the most important feature of all of these tools for what we use them for?

00:23:44   Is real-time collaboration if the real-time collaboration isn't rock-solid

00:23:49   It's never gonna be as good no matter what else the app has and that's why we keep coming back to Google Docs

00:23:54   I agree. And I agree with you too that like, this implementation is super janky. But I

00:24:00   like you because I think we use these tools very, very similar way. I really mostly care

00:24:05   about dragging into docs. And I like you very, very rarely copy anything out of a Google

00:24:12   Doc. And so yeah, like this isn't clearly not ideal. But for the way that you and I

00:24:18   work, it's okay. And I'm glad that this is here as opposed to them waiting until they

00:24:23   could get it going both directions that I will take this for now but I do hope

00:24:28   that they they get it worked out in the future. Yeah exactly, I feel exactly the same.

00:24:32   Last item of massive follow-up today, podcast app redesigns. So they were just

00:24:39   there were two things that we've spoken about in the past and I wanted to just

00:24:42   mention the applications I've seen that updated. So we were talking about Castro

00:24:46   when the iPhone 10 came out and about the fact that they were putting a black

00:24:52   bar at the top of the app, right? And I don't think any of us like that, because it became

00:24:57   very apparent, I think, to most people very quickly that the embracing of the notch design

00:25:02   was the right way to go, while Castro 2.5.3 is out and they are doing it. They're extending

00:25:07   color all the way to the top. So I'm very pleased to see that Supertop reversed their

00:25:12   thinking on this. And I spoke to the guys there and they were like, "We wanted to have

00:25:18   device with us so we could see how it would look before we made any changes. I totally

00:25:23   understand that and I'm happy that they did, right? Like that they saw it and they were

00:25:27   like, okay, we need to change this and they did. So they have, they are embracing the

00:25:31   notch now. Um, but also Overcast just got a true black theme, like an OLED black theme

00:25:39   and it is wonderful.

00:25:40   It is. It's really good.

00:25:43   I absolutely love it because any application that I have that has one of these now, and

00:25:48   are many. Overcast is the only app that I use frequently. It's the only app that's

00:25:54   dark theme is black as opposed to grey and it looks glorious on the iPhone 10. It looks

00:26:01   so so good. I'm very very happy with it.

00:26:06   It is nice and I think we'll see more apps move from grey to black or actually Marco

00:26:11   kept both so you can pick between normal and grey.

00:26:14   Which is the right thing to do because black will still look bad on the non- outlet screens

00:26:17   right which is why none of these dark themes are black.

00:26:21   Yeah it's funny I was scrolling through these the super top tweet and they're now arguing

00:26:26   with somebody about how they can't do a dark a black mode so one step forward at a time

00:26:30   I guess but I think that developers should consider this it does look so nice on OLED

00:26:36   there's indication that it's better on battery easier on the screen and even though I don't

00:26:40   love the aesthetic of dark modes I find myself using them now when they're available on the

00:26:46   the X, not necessarily on my iPad, but definitely on the X.

00:26:52   It's a whole different thing.

00:26:54   I think that a lot of people are hesitant of dark modes because they haven't liked dark

00:26:58   modes in the past, but this is something else.

00:27:01   This is a very impressive thing to look at.

00:27:04   It's not like, "Oh, I want to just have my phone be dark rather than white."

00:27:09   No, this is like, the pixels aren't on.

00:27:12   It looks like everything that you're seeing, it looks like that's all it is.

00:27:16   It's a very different look and I really hope to see more people do this.

00:27:22   And I know everybody has strong opinions about design but if you have a dark mode in your

00:27:25   application you should be having one of these two because all of the people that wanted

00:27:29   your dark mode in the first place will want this.

00:27:32   Like please just add them developers.

00:27:35   I beg of you.

00:27:36   Tweetbot, that's the one I want.

00:27:37   I'm just going to say it's the one I want the most.

00:27:39   I really hope they're going to do it because I have had Android Twitter clients on Android

00:27:45   phones with all the screens. My gosh, it looks incredible. So I really, really hope to see

00:27:51   a tweetbot true black. And that's why I like that name. By the way, I don't know where

00:27:56   that came from. True black. That's a good kind of way to describe these themes. Not

00:28:02   just dark theme. It's like a true black theme. It's like, that's the

00:28:05   agreed. Everyone should have one. We had a question from Eric. I know this was interesting.

00:28:12   What are your current iPad Pro accessory lineups?

00:28:15   I know Federico has changed keyboards, I think every other week, it seems like since the

00:28:22   iPad Pros came out.

00:28:25   I'm using the smart keyboard, it's always attached to my iPad.

00:28:29   If I'm not using the keyboard, I sort of sling it around at the back.

00:28:33   I use it very anytime I'm typing on the iPad, I do it with the keyboard.

00:28:36   I have an Apple pencil.

00:28:38   I don't I don't know the last time I used it.

00:28:40   not a thing that has found its way into my into my working life with the iPad.

00:28:45   What about you? Both iPads have smart keyboards and Apple pencils permanently

00:28:51   attached to them. I attached the pencil with a Leuchtturm pen loop, just a German

00:28:58   pen and paper company, and they make really nice loops in a bunch of

00:29:01   different colors and they're super easy to get and they're cheap and it's an adhesive

00:29:05   you just stick it to the back of the iPad and that's how I keep an Apple

00:29:09   pencil attached. There is a downside of that. Like if you keep the Apple pencil attached

00:29:13   to the iPad, you will need to be charging your Apple pencil all the time because the

00:29:17   connection remains and it drains the battery down. But I'm fine with it because the pencil

00:29:21   charges so quickly. Like I always know when I'm going to want to use it. All I need to

00:29:25   do is just stick it in the lightning port for 15 seconds and I'm ready for like, ready

00:29:28   to go. Right? Like it's not a problem. But yeah, there's just something to bear in mind.

00:29:33   But I do, if you use the Apple pencil a lot, it's only useful if it's attached in my opinion,

00:29:38   otherwise you're going to be looking for it and I like this way of doing it just

00:29:42   to use a pen loop and you can use any type of pen loop really but this is the

00:29:46   one that I've used to great success for the last two and a bit years so that's

00:29:51   that's how I do it so I run smart keyboards Apple pencils all the way it's

00:29:55   the best combo that I have found so far none of the other keyboards for the new

00:29:59   iPads especially 10.5 make me happy so I'm sticking with the smart keyboard

00:30:06   Yeah, I just don't want to deal with Bluetooth stuff. Like it's just, you know,

00:30:11   snap it around and it works. And I think it's a case for the smart connector

00:30:15   being really good, but we talked about this, the smart connectors hasn't taken

00:30:21   off yet, so smart keyboard it is. You know, I should just rename it the keyboard

00:30:25   connector and then just leave it at that, right? Apple only keyboard connector. I like other keyboards

00:30:32   more like I don't love the smart keyboard I'm pretty fast on it but it's

00:30:36   not I prefer something more like the magic keyboard but again talking about

00:30:43   trade-offs not dealing with Bluetooth or like having something that's like

00:30:46   separate from the iPad you know and something that's not bulky then I'm

00:30:51   willing to put up with a keyboard that I don't love as much to get all those

00:30:55   other things my hashtag keyboard opinion is that I love the smart keyboard I

00:31:00   I think it's a great keyboard in my opinion. I like the way it feels. I like the way it

00:31:04   types on it. Everybody's opinions vary on keyboards. That's something I've learned over

00:31:09   the last couple of weeks.

00:31:11   That's been a real situation on the Mac side of things.

00:31:15   Everybody has opinions about their keyboards and I just want to say that I really like

00:31:19   my smart keyboard. And I like my Microsoft Sculptor economic keyboard too.

00:31:24   Also good.

00:31:25   Today's episode is also brought to you by our friends over at Ting. Ting is a mobile

00:31:31   phone service that wants to help you save money. They believe that you should only pay

00:31:35   for what you use, and with prices like $10 per gigabyte of data, the average Ting customer

00:31:40   pays just $23 a month per phone, which is a fantastic price. If you're in the US and

00:31:46   use a cell phone, which I'm sure probably all of you do, well maybe not all in the US,

00:31:51   but if you're in the US I'm pretty sure I feel the same thing. You're going to love

00:31:55   what the folk over at Ting can do for you. Ting doesn't believe in contracts, overage fees or

00:32:00   unlimited plans with tons of catches. They have top rated no hold customer support. When you call them

00:32:06   you will get through to a real person. Ting are focused on offering the best prices that they can

00:32:11   for their customers and any savings that they can make they will pass on to you. You only pay for

00:32:16   what you use. It's a simple model but nobody else does this. 80% of devices made in the last two

00:32:23   years can come to Ting. They support both GSM and CDMA and you can have GSM and CDMA

00:32:29   phones on the same account with them. Ting even allows you to get the latest iPhone along

00:32:37   with AppleCare too. If you're stuck in a contract, Ting will offer a 25% credit off

00:32:46   of your early termination fee. That's up to $75 per device that you bring to Ting.

00:32:51   To get started, go to connected.ting.com and use their handy device checker to confirm

00:32:56   your phone can make the move. If you're looking to upgrade, they have plenty of options available

00:33:00   for you in their online store for you to grab a new handset.

00:33:04   Listeners of this show can get $25 on selected devices or keep it as a Ting credit. Go to

00:33:10   connected.ting.com and see how much you can save. We thank Ting for their support of this

00:33:15   show.

00:33:16   All right. All right. So was the the wonderful tradition of Black Friday very recently and

00:33:24   in Cyber Monday. I don't know if this is the thing I actually do think this is a thing

00:33:27   in the US because we've I noticed that while I was there as much as I've noticed that when

00:33:31   I've been back at home the Black Friday lasts for about two weeks now. Like like Black Friday

00:33:37   sales are just like a two weeks. I don't get this. But sure like it's just holiday sales

00:33:43   period but I also find it funny that we have Black Friday in England which

00:33:48   doesn't make any sense right we don't have the Friday after Thanksgiving like

00:33:52   that isn't a thing that exists here but yet this specific day is now also a

00:33:56   sales day for us but anyway I made a purchase because I saw a good deal on a

00:34:02   Google Home Mini mm-hmm so I bought one they're like 35 pounds now or something

00:34:08   they're like 25% off I don't know if this is if it is a constant thing but I

00:34:12   I thought for 35 pounds, I'll get one of these.

00:34:15   So I did, I got the red one, it's looking at me right now.

00:34:18   I learned as I was beginning the show today

00:34:21   that when you mute the microphone, it tells you,

00:34:23   it doesn't just do nothing.

00:34:25   - So stupid. - Like the echo.

00:34:27   It goes, microphone is muted.

00:34:29   I should just play it for you so you can hear it,

00:34:31   how about that?

00:34:32   - Okay.

00:34:33   - The mic's back on.

00:34:35   - Okay, so now you know what happens when you turn it on.

00:34:38   - The mic's off.

00:34:40   - Why does it do that?

00:34:41   Like it's it's it's the exact wrong thing to do.

00:34:45   I have noticed that a lot about this device, which I will, you know, I'm just going to

00:34:50   jump ahead right now.

00:34:52   Is it designed by Twitter?

00:34:53   That's like a Twitter Inc thing.

00:34:55   Yeah.

00:34:56   Do exactly the wrong thing in every situation.

00:34:58   So I compare the two, right?

00:35:01   So I have an Echo, I'm looking at them.

00:35:03   I have an Echo Dot here and I have a Google Home Mini right here.

00:35:06   So like a lot of what I'm going to say is comparisons between the two.

00:35:10   One of the key things for me is the Google Home Mini says way too much.

00:35:15   It uses too many words in basically every single instance.

00:35:20   For example, I said something which it didn't understand.

00:35:25   And with the Echo, it's like, "Sorry, I didn't understand."

00:35:28   It will say something like, "Sorry, I didn't get that."

00:35:30   Or like, "I can't process that right now."

00:35:32   You know, very quick things.

00:35:34   But the Google Home Mini, it says that. It's like, "Sorry, I can't do that right now."

00:35:37   right now but then it goes but I'm learning all the time like no I don't I

00:35:42   have learned now over my time of Siri and the echo and now with the Google

00:35:49   Home stuff stop saying superfluous cute funny things it doesn't see a problem it

00:35:56   doesn't help and Google Home the Google Assistant does this too it's like I

00:36:01   don't need to know that you're learning all the time because you didn't do what

00:36:04   I asked. I don't care that you're learning. The good thing about the echo in this regard

00:36:10   is if it gets something wrong, it is a smaller period of time until I can try again. Because

00:36:17   I don't know if you like this but I guess it's like a human thing. I wait for it to

00:36:20   finish what it's saying because that's conversation. I guess this is just something in the back

00:36:27   of my head that's making me do this. Or for example, this is another example. I ask it

00:36:33   to turn on a light or turn off a light. So I say like, hey, ahoy device, turn off the

00:36:39   office lamp. And the Amazon Echo goes, okay, and then the lights turn off. The Google Home

00:36:46   Mini says, okay, turning the office lamp off. The lamp is already off. By the time you finish

00:36:54   the sentence. Like, I don't understand the requirement for so many words. Like, it's

00:37:01   It's very weird, it just seems like a poor design decision.

00:37:06   I don't understand how you could, so Google Home has been around for a while, they obviously

00:37:11   compare it to other things, I don't know why they feel the requirement to do this.

00:37:15   My only assumption is they believe it makes people think the assistant is more than it

00:37:19   is, right?

00:37:20   Like, that it is a thing that keeps talking to you as if it is an assistant as opposed

00:37:25   to just a dumb device which does take your commands.

00:37:30   I find it very peculiar. But anyway, so I'll go back a bit. The hardware itself is fine.

00:37:34   I got the red one. It's got that cloth covering and it's got some little lights on it. You

00:37:39   can change the volume by tapping on it. But as we know from previous conversations, you

00:37:43   cannot tap on it to mute it. You have to hit the switch around the back. But honestly,

00:37:47   I kind of prefer that. Like it's always strange to me that it would have two ways to mute

00:37:52   it. Like I feel like that was a bad design decision anyway. So the switch on the back

00:37:56   makes more sense to me than having two different ways to mute and unmute the device.

00:38:03   All of these devices are controlled and configured for applications.

00:38:11   There's a Google Home app which you use to set it up.

00:38:14   The setup was the easiest setup I've had of any smart device.

00:38:19   I didn't have to connect it to a specific Wi-Fi network.

00:38:23   I didn't have to connect my phone to a WiFi network that the device created.

00:38:28   I don't know how it paired, but it did super easily.

00:38:32   And then all I needed to do was put my WiFi password in to save it to the device.

00:38:36   And that was it.

00:38:37   It was a really, really easy thing to do.

00:38:39   And it does something by sound, because the phone makes a noise.

00:38:44   And I think that the home is listening for the noise.

00:38:46   That is genius.

00:38:48   That pairing thing was the best pairing I've had of any of these types of devices.

00:38:52   just works so well. Actually the Canary did a good job too. Like when you're setting up

00:38:56   a Canary for the first time they give you a 3.5mm headphone cable like an AUX cable

00:39:03   which you plug into the device and your phone and it sends a noise to it. So it's the same

00:39:06   kind of idea but this was even better because there wasn't even a cable for me to do. Like

00:39:10   it just paired it and then I just put my wifi password in and it was done. And then after

00:39:15   that right like it's set up and I wanna set it up with integrations right like I wanna

00:39:21   to put my Hue lights on it, I want to see what else is going on.

00:39:24   Right.

00:39:25   Hook up, remember the milk?

00:39:26   Yeah, of course.

00:39:28   I feel like I'm pretty good at technology, right?

00:39:30   I feel like I understand how to use technology.

00:39:33   This is one of the most confusing things I have done in recent memory.

00:39:38   Because their application doesn't explain anywhere where any of these things are.

00:39:44   The Google Home app is really tricky to understand.

00:39:47   And their support documentation is wrong.

00:39:50   This happened to me on two different occasions with two support documents.

00:39:53   It was telling me to press buttons that don't exist in the app.

00:39:57   They are not there.

00:39:58   It was like, "Oh, press this button and press the 'more settings' button."

00:40:02   There is no more settings button.

00:40:06   And I think one of the reasons for this is because I think they made the decision at

00:40:10   some point that for you to get to any of the integrations you have to install the Assistant

00:40:15   app as well.

00:40:16   I don't want to do that.

00:40:18   But now I have to have two applications installed.

00:40:20   So I would hit the Explore tab.

00:40:22   It's like, I'll hit the Explore tab, then you can browse other integrations.

00:40:26   When I hit the Explore tab, all it would say is download the Assistant app.

00:40:30   And you can say no thanks, and it dumps you out to the main screen again.

00:40:32   So you go back to Explore, and it says, hey, download the Assistant app.

00:40:36   All it will let you do is download the Google Assistant app.

00:40:39   And then when you're in the Google Assistant app, you can find all of the integrations,

00:40:43   and they integrate with the Assistant, therefore integrating with Google Home.

00:40:47   I understand if this is what you want to do, but there should be one application.

00:40:51   You should, the home stuff should live inside of the Assistant app then,

00:40:56   if this is what you want to do.

00:40:57   Like, I don't know why I need to have these two different applications to,

00:41:01   to perform the one function that I want. And then like, man,

00:41:06   I thought that Amazon's UI for browsing integrations and skills was bad.

00:41:10   Google's is so much worse. And I do not expect that from Google.

00:41:16   I expect good design and it is confusing.

00:41:19   They do a really bad job of breaking things out into categories.

00:41:22   It's not spread out very well.

00:41:24   It's really difficult to find anything.

00:41:26   And like I searched for IFTTT, came up in the search results,

00:41:30   I tapped it and I'm taken to a broken blank page inside of the app

00:41:35   with no way to enable it.

00:41:36   So then I go to IFTTT and I enable it through them.

00:41:39   Like I'm really disappointed with this device so far.

00:41:44   Like I'm going to keep it because I'm interested in trying some of the things more that it

00:41:50   can do.

00:41:51   Like I'm thinking about getting a Chromecast because I like the idea of like being able

00:41:57   to summon YouTube videos with my voice and stuff like that.

00:41:59   That sounds like a fun little thing to do.

00:42:02   And I bet it does and I haven't really done any big tests on this but like the Google

00:42:06   search stuff being built in I bet is going to be way better for getting answers to questions.

00:42:12   But the whole setup process of this device has been pretty bad and is only accentuated

00:42:18   by the fact that my experience with the Amazon Echo has been vastly superior so far, which

00:42:24   is very surprising to me.

00:42:26   Yeah, you don't think about Amazon being the company in that scenario that gets it right.

00:42:32   I really expected better from Google in this and I'm sure that if you've never used an

00:42:37   Echo you probably don't recognize a bunch of these things, but I think the thing that

00:42:41   frustrates me the most is the application stuff, right?

00:42:44   That like, why can I not enable skills for my Google Home

00:42:49   in the Google Home app?

00:42:50   Why do I have to download the Google Assistant app?

00:42:52   Yeah, that feels a little lazy, that they're

00:42:55   sort of bunting out to the system

00:42:56   they already have in the Assistant.

00:42:58   It's funny that you call it lazy.

00:43:00   Like, this to me speaks of design by committee.

00:43:04   The Google Assistant team really want that app

00:43:07   installed on people's devices.

00:43:08   Like, that's what I see has happened here.

00:43:11   they're like oh we've they got to download that one too. It's a strategy tax right?

00:43:14   Yes. Yeah. That's more important to the company than home is ultimately I think.

00:43:19   Yep it is because it's just everywhere. And so they're willing to punish you for

00:43:24   their corporate strategy. Yep. Which is really annoying. But yeah you sent yours back right?

00:43:30   You got the big one. I gave it to my brother-in-law. Okay. It sat around past

00:43:37   the return date and I was saying it to him when he was in town a couple weeks ago.

00:43:39   Does he like it? I actually haven't asked him about it. I don't know. I should I

00:43:44   should ask him. I think he listens. So Whit, if you like Google Home, text me.

00:43:48   Oh, hi Whit. Hey, it's so interesting that on the surface the Echo and the Google

00:43:55   Home are really similar products, right? They do basically the same type of

00:44:01   things, they look kind of the same way, but that they are treated so differently

00:44:05   and set up. I just find that sort of thing really interesting. The other thing I find

00:44:11   interesting is I'm on the Google Home Help page at support.google.com. I've used Google

00:44:16   stuff like I had a Gmail account back when it was like invite only. I've been a Google

00:44:21   user for a really long time and I've never seen this on a page. At the top it's choose

00:44:27   your help center. US, UK, Canada, Australia, phone numbers, links. And at the bottom, hey,

00:44:33   I could chat with a member of the Google Home Help team.

00:44:36   I could just start chatting with them.

00:44:38   I don't know if Google realizes people are having trouble

00:44:43   or that Google is finally, after all of these years,

00:44:47   realizing that if you're gonna have a consumer product,

00:44:50   you have to offer support for it.

00:44:53   That's kind of the problem with Gmail and Google Calendar

00:44:56   is that it's extremely difficult to speak to somebody

00:45:01   phone or over chat or over email and like a customer service role. They have really

00:45:06   good support documents, but they have always lacked that sort of human touch to their support.

00:45:15   And it seems like with Google Home, they're changing that. Maybe it's better with the

00:45:18   pixels? I haven't bought a...

00:45:19   I expect that a lot of this changed when they started making hardware. Like the software

00:45:25   stuff, you know, you can mostly shake a lot of those things off and they have been able

00:45:30   to, right, for so long. Like you can kind of just hope that people will find it in the forums.

00:45:34   But when you're making hardware products, you have to offer support. And they do that,

00:45:39   right? Like in a way that they never have before. Like, Made by Google is a serious effort from them,

00:45:45   full of problems right now. But like, that's that's a story for probably for a year in the

00:45:50   year in review episode. But they are trying to be a hardware company. And at that point,

00:45:57   they need to have customer support and it looks like they are doing a better job of it.

00:46:00   I think they're getting there. You know, Apple, um, Apple people like to sort of ding Google for

00:46:07   that. And I think that's fair to a degree, but I think also, I think we have to say that they

00:46:13   are improving. I guess you can't walk in a Google store and have your, you know, the screen on your

00:46:17   pixel two that you broke, you know, replaced same day like you can an iPhone, but Google's at the

00:46:23   very beginning of this. And I think they're at the very least moving in the right direction.

00:46:27   Like, yeah, it kind of stinks that your user experience was kind of crummy on the home.

00:46:31   But I bet they I bet they improve it over time. And it seems like at the very least, if you have

00:46:36   some sort of hardware issue with it, then you know, you're going to be set in a whole bunch of

00:46:41   different ways to get in touch with somebody have them take care of it for you. And I think that's

00:46:45   a really important thing that they've missed for a long time. And it's encouraging to see them sort

00:46:52   sort of get on the right track.

00:46:54   - Yep, I think so too.

00:46:55   I will say the voice sounds a lot better.

00:46:58   - Yeah, it does.

00:47:00   - The voice technology that Google has, understandably,

00:47:04   is vastly superior to what Amazon has.

00:47:09   - I think it's best on the market.

00:47:10   I think it's better than Siri,

00:47:12   I think it's better than anything I've heard.

00:47:13   - And I haven't done any extensive tests with this yet,

00:47:16   but it's got the whole,

00:47:18   and it talks about it in the setup process,

00:47:20   like the training of the voice patterns

00:47:22   and how it remembers who you are and stuff like that.

00:47:25   And I believe that Siri has this

00:47:27   and I believe that Amazon have this to a point,

00:47:29   but it seems pretty hidden.

00:47:30   Like Google is very bullish about it.

00:47:32   They call it out as a feature

00:47:34   when everybody else uses it as a way to avoid problems.

00:47:37   But they're like, nope, we'll be able to detect you

00:47:39   and be able to say who you are

00:47:41   and work out who you are and that kind of stuff.

00:47:42   So I don't know, my time is not done with this device.

00:47:45   I'm not ready to put it back in a box and send it off.

00:47:48   A lot of my frustrations I believe are coming because I am used to something different.

00:47:53   But I expect that there are many more things that I will come into contact with with a

00:47:57   device that are better.

00:47:59   And so I'm keen to see how it goes.

00:48:02   For example, the Assistant app, if I got into that, I can see that being really good.

00:48:08   Me being able to ask Todoist by text stuff and rather, to be able to use the integrations

00:48:15   rather than just voice, you can also send it queries.

00:48:18   Like, that is really interesting,

00:48:20   and I am keen to play around with more of that.

00:48:23   There are good things here, and I bet, like,

00:48:26   people that are in the Google ecosystem,

00:48:28   I bet this device is fantastic, right?

00:48:31   Because you can have it send stuff to your phone

00:48:33   and stuff like that. And I wonder if--

00:48:35   I mean, again, I haven't tried. I will play around with it.

00:48:37   Some more, it should do this. If it doesn't,

00:48:39   it should be able to send stuff to the Assistant app for me, right?

00:48:42   Like, if I need directions and stuff as a way to get it

00:48:44   get through to my iPhone but like to be able to have that kind of deep hook in

00:48:48   is really interesting and is what I hope Apple will be able to do right with the

00:48:54   HomePod like I really hope that there is that maybe some of the story maybe some

00:48:58   of the reason that it's delayed is that they want to add more they want to do

00:49:02   more with it that's my hope and if that's what's gonna happen but I think

00:49:05   down the line Apple will have a device if it's not the HomePod that will be

00:49:09   better at doing some of this stuff. But Google is very far ahead with that. Like

00:49:14   the way that it integrates several of these products into their ecosystem, they

00:49:18   are the leader in this right now because they have the Google

00:49:21   Assistant and it's everywhere on everything and that's really interesting.

00:49:25   Like you know like their computers, the Pixelbook has a button right and you can

00:49:30   talk to it or you can write to it. Like it's really interesting in a way

00:49:36   that Siri isn't because Siri is still like these instances as opposed to this

00:49:45   one cohesive net which it seems like Google is casting across its products

00:49:49   where like you can talk to Siri but you are talking to Siri on this device like

00:49:55   it is this one Siri is how it feels right because as well like it the things

00:50:00   it can do differ on all of these different devices where it feels to me

00:50:05   like the assistant, the Google Assistant, is way more cohesive across its product line.

00:50:11   So yeah, and that's something that Google and Apple have over Amazon. You know, I think

00:50:19   the Echo, at least in mindshare, is probably the most popular sort of home assistant device,

00:50:25   if not in shared numbers, but they struggle to integrate with things like your calendar,

00:50:32   or your contacts or your reminders because they don't,

00:50:36   like no one uses Amazon services for that other stuff.

00:50:39   Or Amazon doesn't offer services in those realms.

00:50:42   But if you have a Google Home and you use Google Calendar,

00:50:46   even if you're on an iPhone, that gets you linked up.

00:50:49   And if you have an Android phone,

00:50:51   maybe you can even do more, and HomePod and iCloud,

00:50:54   and that's really where you get the benefit

00:50:57   of being all in one ecosystem.

00:51:00   And I've thought a lot about this

00:51:01   I use Gmail and I use Google contacts and use Google calendars on an iPhone and a Mac.

00:51:07   And I do that for a bunch of really specific reasons that aren't really important for this

00:51:11   conversation.

00:51:12   But you know, so far, I haven't felt like I've lost out on any cool integration stuff

00:51:18   because the Google stuff is so well supported in iOS.

00:51:22   But if we were to get the HomePod, and for some reason it were really to click in our

00:51:25   household, you know, would I be tempted to move some stuff back into iCloud so I could

00:51:29   maybe have it there too?

00:51:30   Like, these companies are playing chess

00:51:34   with all these different pieces of our data

00:51:36   and they want us, and it's beneficial to customers,

00:51:39   to be all in on one.

00:51:41   And I think ultimately that's probably gonna hurt Amazon

00:51:44   in the long run unless they really strike some deal

00:51:49   with Google to have full-blown access to a Google account.

00:51:54   And Apple's never gonna do that with iCloud,

00:51:55   so they're always gonna be behind there.

00:51:57   And looking out, several years down the road,

00:52:00   I just wonder how that'll play out once these devices really

00:52:05   become more mature and the services that hold them

00:52:08   all together become more powerful.

00:52:10   My expectation is Amazon knows this fate,

00:52:12   which is why they are making so many of these things.

00:52:15   In the next two years, there'll be an echo for everything.

00:52:21   And I think that's the point.

00:52:23   They're trying to make an ecosystem which is just this,

00:52:26   because they can't plug into anything else.

00:52:28   And I think they're very aware of that.

00:52:30   That's their Achilles' heel in this, right?

00:52:31   There is no phone, that's the problem.

00:52:33   And there's never gonna be, right?

00:52:35   Like, they're never gonna, they can't do this now.

00:52:38   They failed too many times.

00:52:40   The phone thing is gone for them.

00:52:42   So they're trying to just build the home stuff

00:52:45   and make their home stuff super strong

00:52:47   in the hope that you will just use the home stuff, right?

00:52:49   And you'll be good with that.

00:52:51   Because they're not gonna be able

00:52:52   to build the entire ecosystem.

00:52:54   Which, I mean, if they can do it though,

00:52:57   it's great for them.

00:52:57   because all this is for is to sell more stuff.

00:53:00   Right, that's the plan.

00:53:02   Sell more stuff and integrate with their winning services

00:53:05   like Prime, right, and Prime Video.

00:53:07   That's what all this is for,

00:53:09   and as long as they can keep building compelling products

00:53:11   and they're gonna keep people in that ecosystem,

00:53:13   but it might not be the overall piece,

00:53:14   which they obviously wanted,

00:53:16   but they weren't able to achieve.

00:53:18   And I think they're too far behind now.

00:53:20   - Agreed.

00:53:22   - All right, today's show is also brought to you

00:53:24   by our friends over at Encapsula.

00:53:26   They will help you delight visitors to your site whilst also frustrating those nasty attackers

00:53:30   because of their bulletproof security options and fast content delivery network.

00:53:35   Right now somewhere in the world a website is being attacked by some giant botnet that

00:53:40   is scraping their content trying to smash into databases and ultimately bring the site

00:53:44   down.

00:53:45   All of this stuff is very scary, no one wants to think about these things and that's why

00:53:49   you should use Encapsula because they work super hard to protect websites of all sizes

00:53:53   with a network that can process 30 billion attacks per second.

00:53:57   That's a lot of attacks.

00:53:59   I think you're pretty set.

00:54:00   They are super good at what they do.

00:54:02   This is why Encapsular have successfully defended some of the largest website attacks on record.

00:54:07   And if something bad happened to you, your visitors are never going to know because their

00:54:10   content delivery network is so fast, people can continue browsing your site even if they

00:54:15   are having to work hard to protect it against something nasty.

00:54:19   As a listener of this show, you can get one whole month of service for free with Encapsula.

00:54:23   Just go to Encapsula.com/connected.

00:54:26   That is I-N-C-A-P-S-U-L-A.com/connected.

00:54:30   Check it out right now to find out more about what Encapsula can do for you and claim that

00:54:34   free month.

00:54:35   Give Encapsula a try.

00:54:36   You're not going to regret it.

00:54:37   Thank you so much to Encapsula for their support of this show.

00:54:40   I'm really a fan.

00:54:43   I do not understand this topic heading because it says "Trying Windows Again."

00:54:48   This is a very all over the place episode.

00:54:51   I am now an Android user and Steven is a Windows user.

00:54:56   Better eco should never leave.

00:54:58   - So there's been a lot of conversation about the state

00:55:04   of Apple hardware, which we do not need to retry this week.

00:55:07   We do not need to retry it.

00:55:09   But something that comes out of these debates sometimes

00:55:13   is if Apple doesn't fix the MacBook Pro,

00:55:17   I'll just buy a Surface Book.

00:55:19   Or if there's not a Mac Pro that meets my needs,

00:55:22   I'll just build a PC to edit video on.

00:55:25   There's a couple comments this weekend about Windows

00:55:29   is receiving active development and the Mac OS is dead,

00:55:34   which I can't disagree with more strongly.

00:55:36   But all of that has sort of been like

00:55:39   running around in my head as we've had these conversations

00:55:41   about Mac hardware.

00:55:43   And I've got a background as a Windows user,

00:55:47   actually like a Windows admin at a job for like four years in like Windows Vista

00:55:51   in seven days and so I'm familiar with it but I don't run it day to day. I haven't

00:55:57   run it day to day since like 2012, 2013 and I thought that would be interesting

00:56:03   just to kind of see like I haven't really spent time with Windows 10. What of

00:56:08   my existing workflow without changing anything could I just pick up and put on

00:56:12   Windows say that the Mac went away today and had to use Windows, what would what

00:56:18   would my what my options be right so it's kind of taking the iPad out of the

00:56:22   equation for a little bit I know that's a little unfair but this is the thought

00:56:25   experiment I sort of came up with so after like arguing with boot camp for

00:56:30   like an hour and a half on my MacBook Pro and maybe like breaking my boot

00:56:34   volume temporarily I end up just having Windows 10 install into VMware fusion so

00:56:39   virtual machine so I'm still running Mac OS but have Windows full screen and it's

00:56:46   interesting I haven't really spent time with Windows 10 it's still very much

00:56:49   Windows like if you've used Windows in the last decade right you're not gonna

00:56:53   get lost no you know people say like the Mac OS interface is kind of stagnant

00:57:01   well I think I mean Windows 10 like they keep rearranging the start menu but past

00:57:04   that it's still Windows. They tried right but obviously yeah it did not go well

00:57:10   now it's an option if you want the Windows 8 style like full screen full

00:57:15   screen deal. What I was really surprised by and this is a benefit of the pay for

00:57:21   a service and get the apps sort of ecosystem we live in now that most of my

00:57:25   major apps are fine on Windows. So Slack, 1Password we pay for 1Password for

00:57:30   teams at Relay so I could log into my Relay account online and download

00:57:34   one password for Windows for free. Dropbox of course Chrome. I pay for text

00:57:38   expander their syncing service. They have a Windows app. You get it if you pay for the syncing

00:57:43   service. Text expander on Windows blew my mind. All that stuff installed fine. I

00:57:48   could configure it fine. You know they're sort of like the core Mac apps. Windows

00:57:54   has like the Mac mail contacts calendar apps. They work okay with Gmail stuff. The

00:58:01   The calendar app had this funny bug where it was showing me everything, every event

00:58:05   ever declined and I could not figure how to turn it off.

00:58:08   So that's annoying but I'm sure it's sitting somewhere.

00:58:10   Sometimes you need regret in your calendar.

00:58:13   It was full of regret.

00:58:16   Full of regret.

00:58:18   I do have some iCloud only stuff like notes and photos I have just in iCloud.

00:58:23   And Apple's solution is use the browser.

00:58:26   You can install iCloud for Windows.

00:58:28   It's this control panel and it syncs some stuff.

00:58:30   I did not touch that thing.

00:58:32   - That's not good.

00:58:34   - So if I wanted notes, you know, I gotta use a browser.

00:58:37   There's no great markdown editors,

00:58:38   there are a few different options.

00:58:40   There's obviously no Logic or Final Cut,

00:58:41   but if you use the Adobe apps, they're basically the same.

00:58:44   So if I were to use Audition and Premiere,

00:58:48   instead of Logic and Final Cut, then I could move over.

00:58:51   And I think that's where a lot of this comes from,

00:58:54   is like high-end users of like, hey,

00:58:56   you know, I'm using the Adobe apps and they work on Windows.

00:59:00   basically the same way, so why not build a PC

00:59:02   with like a crazy GPU and just go to town?

00:59:05   That's a perfectly valid move, if that's what you need to do.

00:59:10   So I kinda walked, I'm still doing it,

00:59:14   I actually did most of my work yesterday

00:59:17   in this Windows VM, like did my relay administration stuff,

00:59:21   did some writing, prepared for the show,

00:59:23   as much of it as possible in Windows.

00:59:26   And the short answer is, I could do it.

00:59:29   The longer answer is I have no intention on doing it.

00:59:32   The-- - You don't wanna do it.

00:59:34   - No, no, just because the apps are there

00:59:37   doesn't mean I enjoy using the operating system, right?

00:59:41   It's still Windows, it's still fragile

00:59:44   in the way that Windows is fragile.

00:59:45   - All right, let me ask you about that though.

00:59:47   What's wrong with it?

00:59:48   - What's wrong with Windows?

00:59:50   - Yeah. - It's gross.

00:59:51   Windows is gross, man. - Why, why?

00:59:53   - I'm gonna sound like one of those people that,

00:59:58   people quote when they hate Apple fans.

01:00:01   I just, the Mac is much more comfortable

01:00:06   and more cohesively thought out than Windows is, I think.

01:00:09   I think Windows is still suffering from the,

01:00:11   Windows 8 tried to redo everything,

01:00:14   and Windows 10 is sort of like Windows 7 plus Windows 8,

01:00:17   and it's better than it used to be,

01:00:20   but there are still times where it's sort of confusing

01:00:23   like where things are or how things work.

01:00:26   And I will admit that I'm new to this,

01:00:28   And so I'm sure this gets better with time.

01:00:31   But I think Windows just doesn't feel as polished to me

01:00:35   and doesn't feel as thoughtfully considered

01:00:39   as the Mac does.

01:00:41   Now, I'm going into this with all the biases I have

01:00:46   of being a long time Mac user.

01:00:48   This is not an objective test

01:00:50   by any stretch of the imagination.

01:00:52   But it doesn't feel like an OS that I want to use.

01:00:58   and it's still weirdness, right?

01:00:59   So I installed 64-bit Windows 10,

01:01:03   and it's like, oh, I'll install the 64-bit version of Slack,

01:01:07   and that version just wouldn't install.

01:01:08   It gave me like DLL errors on a brand new Windows install.

01:01:12   And it's like, well, that's weird.

01:01:12   So I downloaded the 32-bit version of Slack,

01:01:14   and it installs fine.

01:01:16   I don't know if that's Slack's problem

01:01:17   or Microsoft's problem.

01:01:18   Either way, it shouldn't be my problem.

01:01:20   - Yeah, but like, it might not be Windows, though, right?

01:01:23   Like, you are running Windows in a weird way.

01:01:26   - No, Microsoft completely supports

01:01:29   Windows in virtualization, 100%.

01:01:32   And there's still that sort of weirdness, right?

01:01:37   A user should never need to know

01:01:39   if they're running a 32 or 64-bit version of the OS,

01:01:42   or if the individual app they're using is 32 or 64-bit.

01:01:45   - That is weird that it gives you a choice,

01:01:47   that people give you a choice.

01:01:49   It's strange.

01:01:51   - So when I bought my Windows 10 license,

01:01:53   you get to pick which one you download.

01:01:54   It's like no one, like in 2017, 2018,

01:01:58   no one should do this, right?

01:02:01   And so the Mac takes care of all that for you.

01:02:03   The OS has been 64-bit for a long time.

01:02:06   32-bit apps run basically invisibly.

01:02:10   They just work.

01:02:11   Now that's getting ready to change

01:02:12   because 32-bit apps are gonna go away.

01:02:15   And I think they've set the version after the next one.

01:02:18   But they have some decision-making, right?

01:02:22   If I'm just a normal consumer,

01:02:23   I don't know which one to download, right?

01:02:24   Like, 32, I guess, or 64, and there's--

01:02:27   - I would have to sit and think for just a second, right?

01:02:30   Like, I'd be like, "Mm, am I getting the right?"

01:02:31   Like, I would just have to pause for just a second

01:02:34   and just have to think about that.

01:02:36   - Yeah, it's just, that's not a huge deal, right?

01:02:40   But it's sort of, that's what I'm sort of getting at.

01:02:42   Like, you see all these weird edges and windows

01:02:44   that I don't think most users are prepared for.

01:02:46   - It is like endemic of the overall experience, right?

01:02:49   Like there are these weird things you have to think about,

01:02:53   which come typically from legacy, right?

01:02:57   Which is I think accepted to be their biggest Achilles heel is the support that

01:03:02   they have to give to legacy clients,

01:03:03   like which is why the redesign failed, right? They had a,

01:03:08   they had a really interesting redesign, right? Which was Windows 8.

01:03:11   It failed because nobody wanted to get rid of what they knew. So they had to,

01:03:15   they had to go back.

01:03:16   Yeah. You know, people, um,

01:03:19   you can complain about Apple supporting old stuff too long or not long enough, but on

01:03:25   the Microsoft side of things like that is a real, real big issue. And it's because they

01:03:30   have so many huge, like huge client bases and like the enterprise that, you know, they

01:03:36   wrote an app 10 years ago or 15 years ago, and they still demand that it work just the

01:03:42   way it did. And Microsoft historically has given into that. And I think that slowly,

01:03:49   - It's their business, they have to, they have to do that.

01:03:52   - Yeah, I think they're slowly moving along, right?

01:03:55   Like they're replacing Internet Explorer with Edge

01:03:58   and Edge doesn't do a bunch of the old, weird stuff IE did,

01:04:00   'cause IE was kind of like its own operating system,

01:04:03   really, at a point, so I think they're slowly changing that.

01:04:07   But I don't know, I found it interesting that,

01:04:09   in my mind, I thought, I'm gonna have to give up

01:04:11   all the tools I use every day.

01:04:13   In reality, I had to give up very few of them,

01:04:15   and I'm sure that if I spend some more time on this,

01:04:17   I can find a mark to editor that really fits the way that I fit, I can find an RSS reader

01:04:21   that I like I can find, you know, the handful of other things that are missing.

01:04:26   Like I could I could recreate my workflows.

01:04:29   For the most part, I think on Windows.

01:04:32   And that honestly was a little surprising to me.

01:04:34   I didn't think that I thought that'd be more of a struggle.

01:04:37   I think that's where the pay for a service and get the apps that that mindset I just

01:04:42   I'm not used to yet.

01:04:43   But it definitely like reinforced to me that like I'd much prefer Mac OS over Windows.

01:04:49   But I don't know.

01:04:51   So like the idea of like, well, I don't like the next MacBook, so I'm gonna buy a Surface

01:04:57   Book, like, that's fine.

01:04:58   You can probably still get your work done.

01:05:00   But it's just not a decision that I want to make.

01:05:06   It's interesting.

01:05:07   It's interesting when you look at the way that services to change a lot of this stuff,

01:05:11   Like you could probably do all of this same stuff

01:05:15   of a Chromebook.

01:05:16   - You could do a lot of it.

01:05:18   - You probably have a very similar experience

01:05:20   of a Chromebook, I would expect.

01:05:22   Like in that list, what could you not do?

01:05:26   - Well, any editing, you know,

01:05:30   production work for the shows.

01:05:31   But the rest of it, like you can do Slack and Chrome,

01:05:34   you can use actually now one password, 10 or X.

01:05:37   I don't know how they're saying it.

01:05:39   Dropbox is there, of course.

01:05:40   So I mean, a Chromebook may be another step down the road,

01:05:44   but you know, it's doable.

01:05:47   I could do all this stuff on an iPad as well,

01:05:49   except, well, I could even do editing on the iPad

01:05:51   if I wanted to really change the tools that I use.

01:05:54   So I think consumers and even like professionals like us,

01:05:59   like we do have options.

01:06:01   And I think it's wise to know,

01:06:06   like every once in a while,

01:06:07   just sort of put your toe in the water and see, you know,

01:06:10   what else is out there?

01:06:11   Are there better ways I could do this?

01:06:12   Do I have an escape route if I need one from this platform?

01:06:15   But I don't think I need an escape route at this point.

01:06:18   Like I don't think the Mac's going anywhere.

01:06:20   I'm not worried about it in like an existential way.

01:06:23   - No.

01:06:24   I don't think people are necessarily like

01:06:27   writ large worried that the Mac is going away.

01:06:31   - I think it's nerd angst on Twitter.

01:06:33   - I think people are more concerned

01:06:35   that the Mac is gonna go ways

01:06:37   that they don't want it to go,

01:06:39   Which is a valid, I mean it's the same concern,

01:06:42   but it's coming from a different kind of thought process

01:06:46   which is important, like that is an important thing

01:06:51   to realize, right, and to think about.

01:06:54   Is your computer focusing on things

01:06:57   that aren't important for you?

01:06:58   And then you might want to switch.

01:07:00   But I don't think we're at risk of it going away.

01:07:04   I don't think that's a thing.

01:07:05   But it's worth noting.

01:07:07   If you don't like Apple's current crop of computers,

01:07:11   then you're kind of out of luck, I guess, right?

01:07:15   Like what are you going to do?

01:07:17   But that's the concern, right?

01:07:19   That's the worry with Apple is that they have,

01:07:23   and this is why people get so frustrated

01:07:25   and upset about this.

01:07:26   Again, I don't know what podcast I heard this on recently,

01:07:29   but I heard it on a podcast that I listened to,

01:07:31   which is like, this is all you have, right?

01:07:34   Like if this is what you like, this is all you have.

01:07:37   - Yeah, Jason's talked about that some,

01:07:39   that Apple has a monopoly on Mac OS.

01:07:44   But I think Ben Thompson is the first person

01:07:46   that saw write that phrase.

01:07:47   But if I want to run Mac OS,

01:07:50   I've gotta use one of their hardware products.

01:07:53   So like I have an iMac and now I have a older MacBook Pro

01:07:57   and that works for me for now.

01:07:58   And we'll see what happens in the future.

01:08:01   But again, like we get going back to trade offs

01:08:04   in this episode.

01:08:05   So there is a theme, Myke, it's not just scattershot.

01:08:07   Trade offs is the theme.

01:08:08   The trade offs for me, I will take a lot of abuse

01:08:12   so I can keep using macOS.

01:08:14   Like, I'll put up with a lot.

01:08:17   And I have chosen to use an older MacBook Pro like Marco

01:08:21   because that trade off is still okay

01:08:24   because the machine is still plenty fast enough

01:08:26   for what I need.

01:08:27   But three years from now it won't be.

01:08:29   And if three years from now, the MacBook Pro still has a kind of cruddy keyboard and touch

01:08:34   bar, then you know, I'll, I'll move back to it because that'll be that'll be a trade off

01:08:40   I'm willing to make so I can keep my workflows on Mac OS intact. Because that's, for me,

01:08:46   the software is, is more important than the hardware in in the way that I work and the

01:08:52   hardware I just needed to be fast and reliable. And, you know, I don't want to, I'm sure I'm

01:08:58   I'm sure like if I if I turned off my Mac and I just use this Windows machine for a week

01:09:02   I'm sure that I would find

01:09:04   over the course of the week more and more little things that I don't even realize I do on the Mac but are just

01:09:09   part of my

01:09:11   like muscle memory or part of like just the workflow that I use every day right and you got to rebuild them on Windows or

01:09:16   find a different way to do them and

01:09:18   all that sort of like

01:09:21   Institutional knowledge I have in my head about the way my Mac's work. I don't want to give up

01:09:25   Yeah, I just think that you and Marco are playing a very risky game

01:09:29   Maybe because we'll be disappointed in a couple years, you know, like the game that you're playing is like

01:09:36   Predicated on the notion that it's gonna get better again though in the way that you want it to oh

01:09:44   Yeah, it may not and that's that's a risk to play

01:09:48   because

01:09:50   It may never change and then what do you do right like you went back you spent

01:09:55   you spent less time trying to get accustomed, right?

01:09:58   Like it's why, I don't know, for as much as I can,

01:10:02   I try and do what, I try and go along with what's happening

01:10:06   because I figure otherwise what are my options?

01:10:10   Like your options end at a certain point.

01:10:14   So yeah, I think the two of you are playing a,

01:10:17   playing a dangerous game right now with your old computers.

01:10:20   - We're playing a little game of chicken with Johnny Ive.

01:10:22   You are and I think you'll I think you may lose but I hope yeah like I promise I was

01:10:29   gonna talk about this I I don't think the 2015 MacBook Pro is gonna rise from the dead

01:10:33   as the 2018 MacBook Pro like that's silly.

01:10:37   I think the last of he wrote in his blog post is just like it's wishful thinking I could

01:10:40   be great and I agreed with his blog post 100% about how Apple could fix the MacBook Pro

01:10:45   but in reality we're gonna get maybe a more allowable keyboard and that's it and that

01:10:51   honestly would be enough for me.

01:10:53   Like I was fine until they tried to charge me

01:10:55   450 bucks for a broken key.

01:10:57   - Yeah, that was the straw that broke the keyboards back,

01:10:59   I guess, like that was the end of that.

01:11:02   Right, and I agree with you completely on that, right?

01:11:05   Like, my feeling about the keyboard is like, whatever.

01:11:09   I didn't like it but got used to it, right?

01:11:12   Like the way it was.

01:11:12   My initial feeling was I don't like this,

01:11:15   and it's probably just because it was very different,

01:11:17   but after using the MacBook Pro for like the two weeks that I only had that one machine,

01:11:23   I completely forgot that the keyboard was different. Like I completely forgot.

01:11:27   And mine isn't even about the keyboard being different, it's that it's unreliable.

01:11:29   It is the unreliability, which is what I completely agree with you on. Like if this

01:11:33   machine is significantly less reliable, they have to fix that. If they fix that,

01:11:41   then they've done their job and that's kind of all they have to do. The rest of it would just be

01:11:46   like you know people would prefer things to be a certain way. Which I think is fine right?

01:11:52   Like I just spent a big chunk of the episode complaining about the Google home right? Like

01:11:57   it doesn't work the way I want it to work. But that doesn't mean that it's wrong like

01:12:02   they just make decisions that I disagree with. But if they have like okay so like they had

01:12:09   some fatal flaws with this product which I think they've mostly addressed. But like those

01:12:13   things they had to fix them. Like things being broken about it have to be fixed. But if you

01:12:18   don't like a design decision, like that sometimes is as far as it goes. And that's just kind

01:12:24   of why I'm worried for the two of you. Because you're making very bold decisions about your

01:12:30   computers that may end up just biting you in the butt later on.

01:12:35   They may. And I don't want to speak for Marco, but for me at least, there is an element to

01:12:42   this that is understanding that it's a short it's a short-term game right that

01:12:49   like I have all the dongles and adapters and I got used to that and honestly

01:12:54   that's it's kind of a pain but it's not the end of the world but for someone who

01:13:00   uses that machine as a secondary machine I really just want it to be to work

01:13:03   reliably and that's really what did it for me and the other stuff it like you

01:13:07   said is just gravy right like I'd love an SD card slot like Apple please put an SD

01:13:11   card slot on the next MacBook Pro, but they're not going to put a USB port back on it. Like

01:13:15   that's that's just not a thing that's going to happen. They're not going to unless there's

01:13:19   something radically different the chipset, you're not going to see six USB C Thunderbolt

01:13:23   3 ports on it like the machine is what it is. And it will evolve over time. But I feel

01:13:30   like the direction is going to evolve is further away from my 2015 MacBook Pro, then back toward

01:13:37   But if they make the keyboard like it can still be actually love the way it sounds and I got used to the way it types

01:13:43   But just make it a little more robust

01:13:46   Unlike it is now and then we can talk again. I think I think we'll get that but yeah, it's it's

01:13:53   That's true in all of this stuff, right?

01:13:55   like if it's about one generation of MacBook Pro over the other or if it's a you know, we've been we talked on

01:14:05   connected to an on query actually about

01:14:07   Apple sort of like forcing software updates on people and I got a ton of people like I'm running iOS 10 because

01:14:13   this app that I you know depend on for whatever is

01:14:17   not supported anymore and if I update to 11, it's gonna go away and

01:14:21   There are always people who are caught on the wrong side of a transition or

01:14:28   Caught by transition early, right? Like they're not quite ready to make the move yet and

01:14:34   And what's weird for me is that I'm usually not on that side of things. Right? Like I run beta OS's.

01:14:42   You know, I, I have an iMac. Now that's a 2015. I'm super interested in picking up an iMac Pro

01:14:50   early next year. Like, I like the new and shiny pre ordered an iPhone 10 at two o'clock in the morning.

01:14:56   But for some reason, you know, with this laptop, I'm on the other side. But the same thing goes for

01:15:02   software, right? Like, I we all choose the tools that we that we feel efficient and comfortable

01:15:09   with. And we don't necessarily want to change those radically. And sometimes that's forced

01:15:16   upon us. But at least in like the desktop world, like Mac OS, Sierra to high Sierra,

01:15:25   like not a ton of huge changes, right? And you can sort of move up and your stuff's going

01:15:29   to be fine. And we don't see those big transformations anymore with desktop software. And so when

01:15:35   people look into the future about the Mac, and they don't like what they see, or they

01:15:40   think it's a dead platform, or they think that Apple's ignoring it or whatever, whether

01:15:44   those criticisms are founded in reality or not, or whether they become true or not, I

01:15:50   don't know. But the undercurrent of all of that is, you you sometimes have to make a

01:15:56   decision to to move forward with the tide or to you know move somewhere else

01:16:03   and people fall all across that spectrum and we're seeing it right now with the

01:16:08   MacBook Pro you know we we saw it when Apple moved from OS 9 to OS 10 we saw it

01:16:14   when they moved to Intel if they ever moved to our max we'll see it again you

01:16:19   know there there are always these these points in which people have to decide to

01:16:23   move forward or not. And for me, I am 100% excited and, and willing to keep riding the

01:16:33   Mac OS train as long as it will take me. But you know, we may be in a position like I'm

01:16:39   not I'm not naive, you know, we could be in a situation Michael, we're on the show in

01:16:43   10 years, you know, I'll be 65 then, but I think I can still do the show. And we're having

01:16:50   this conversation about Mac OS itself, right?

01:16:52   If like, Steve, you're playing a dangerous game,

01:16:54   like you gotta get off this thing, right?

01:16:56   Like the last station is in view, the train is stopping.

01:17:00   But I don't think that's anytime soon.

01:17:03   And so for now, you know,

01:17:05   I'm willing to keep rolling on it.

01:17:08   - I think that this experiment of Windows

01:17:11   is pretty akin to your current situation

01:17:15   with the MacBook Pro.

01:17:18   Like, I think that there's some parallels to it.

01:17:20   like, well, this thing worked for me. We'll see. Right. Like it's kind of,

01:17:24   I feel like it's, it is a very similar thread there. Um, but I'm pleased,

01:17:28   I'm pleased that you undertook this experiment. It's interesting.

01:17:31   Yeah. I mean, I think if we're going to talk about it,

01:17:34   like you and I both own Android phones, you bought the Google home,

01:17:37   like we don't have to switch to things, but I think at the very least, like it's,

01:17:41   it's prudent to at least be familiar with it. Right.

01:17:45   So if that's all that comes out of this is like, Hey, you know what?

01:17:48   I spent some time with Windows 10, I know it a little bit,

01:17:50   I installed a bunch of stuff and used it,

01:17:52   then I can speak more intelligently about it

01:17:55   and it informs my opinions in a way that it wouldn't otherwise

01:17:58   and so for that alone, I think experimentation as a nerd,

01:18:01   especially as someone who like talks about this stuff,

01:18:03   is really valuable.

01:18:04   - If you wanna find out more about this today,

01:18:07   go to relay.fm/connectly/170.

01:18:10   Steven is at 512pixels.net, he is @ismh on Twitter.

01:18:14   I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E, and our fallen comrade

01:18:17   is @Vittucci, V-I-T-I-C-C-I,

01:18:20   he's at maxstories.net,

01:18:22   and hopefully he'll be back next week.

01:18:24   Thanks so much to our sponsors this week,

01:18:26   the fine folk at Pingdom, Ting, and Encapsula.

01:18:29   We'll be back next time.

01:18:31   Until then, say goodbye, Steven.