155: Desktop Screaming


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:06   from relay FM this is connected episode 155 today's show is brought to you by

00:00:12   Blue Apron Squarespace and Bombfell my name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by

00:00:18   Mr. Steven Hackett. Hello Michael we're together. We are high five

00:00:22   that's how we prove it we're in uh relay FM

00:00:26   world headquarters which is Steven's office. Yeah

00:00:29   So this is the first time you've been in the studio?

00:00:31   - Recording this show, yes.

00:00:32   - Yeah, you've had quite the experience

00:00:36   with all the old Macs.

00:00:37   You've touched a lot of them.

00:00:38   You've asked me lots of questions.

00:00:40   - They're all behind me.

00:00:41   - Yes, they're on a big shelf.

00:00:43   - Let me take a look at them quickly.

00:00:44   - Okay.

00:00:45   - I'm trying to work out which one of them I like the most.

00:00:50   - The--

00:00:51   - Probably the orange iMac.

00:00:52   - The orange iMac. - On the floor, I think.

00:00:53   - The single iMac G3 that remains.

00:00:55   - Yeah, I think it's the best looking.

00:00:57   Although I do like the old ones, right?

00:00:59   The very top little cute ones, the original Max.

00:01:02   - Yeah, there's a 128K, a Plus, and a SE up there

00:01:05   joined by a Classic, we're gonna cut it open this afternoon.

00:01:08   Someone melt us a Classic.

00:01:09   - Not us. - Me.

00:01:11   - You, I have nothing to join. - Joint custody.

00:01:13   - Really? - In my Classic, no.

00:01:14   - Oh, that's nice.

00:01:15   - Yeah, so we're together, we're celebrating

00:01:18   Relay's Birthday Week together as we do every year.

00:01:20   There's some more about that a little bit in the show,

00:01:22   but we have some follow-up.

00:01:23   - We sure do.

00:01:25   And we spoke forever ago about the smart connector,

00:01:29   a little three-pin gizmo on the spine of the iPad Pro line,

00:01:34   and how it's basically only being

00:01:36   used for a couple of things.

00:01:38   And there was an article in Fast Company

00:01:41   last week that talks about this.

00:01:43   And I think it mirrors kind of what we had felt was true,

00:01:46   that there are high costs and maybe some high wait times

00:01:50   to get the components you need, and that it's sort of difficult

00:01:52   build for, sort of a difficult system and I think a lot of accessory makers have

00:01:56   just decided that Bluetooth is easier and a better fit and so they're

00:02:01   doing that which makes sense. I mean so one of the things the article

00:02:06   calls out is that Bluetooth might be better for keyboards. I don't agree I

00:02:10   mean it might be easier as a manufacturer to make something which is

00:02:14   Bluetooth over smart connector but having been a daily user of a smart

00:02:20   connector attached keyboard, smart connector is vastly superior because there's no battery

00:02:25   to worry about, there's no charging, and it can be constantly attached to the device.

00:02:31   There are struggles, right, around viewing angles and power I'm sure is a difficulty,

00:02:38   but there have been, and I have used backlit keys with a smart connector keyboard, I think

00:02:44   that it is a superior connector for the user, provided that the features could be there

00:02:49   from the developer or the creator.

00:02:52   - Yeah, do you think it's holding the iPad Pro back?

00:02:54   - No, I don't think it's holding it back.

00:02:55   I think that a richer ecosystem

00:03:00   of smart connector accessories

00:03:02   could enhance the iPad Pro

00:03:06   and make it even better than it already is, right?

00:03:08   Like to prospective buyers.

00:03:11   But I don't think that it is holding the product back per se

00:03:16   because it's not there, if that makes sense, right?

00:03:18   I don't think people are like, oh, I don't want one of those things because it's not

00:03:25   got enough accessories, but in having more accessories it would be better, if that makes

00:03:29   sense.

00:03:30   It's fair.

00:03:31   Apple does say that multiple companies are working on products.

00:03:33   Right now it's just been them and Logitech.

00:03:36   They have that weird charging base stand that charges it very, very slowly.

00:03:42   Yeah, that thing is not a real product, in my opinion.

00:03:45   No.

00:03:46   I do want to talk about Logitech for a second though.

00:03:49   So I picked up those, the circle 2, the camera, we talked about that several weeks ago, and

00:03:55   I ran into the trouble that I was getting a lot of reflection in my window mount because

00:03:58   the way my windows are, no problem with the camera itself, but I have a storm window and

00:04:03   I'm getting a lot of reflection.

00:04:04   So I decided to return them.

00:04:06   So they were on the inside, looking out, but the reflection coming from the outside onto

00:04:11   the window meant you couldn't see outside.

00:04:14   And so I'm going to send them back.

00:04:18   This is my completely self-entitled rant.

00:04:21   It's really difficult to return things to Logitech or talk to their customer support

00:04:24   page or support people.

00:04:26   They, you know, the cameras are great, but I'm having some interesting times trying to

00:04:32   get a return label.

00:04:33   Sad.

00:04:34   It's hard.

00:04:35   Everything should be easy, and it is not.

00:04:37   So workflow got updated.

00:04:38   Again.

00:04:39   I remember that app.

00:04:41   is a very detailed what is new in the newest workflow update 1.7.5 on their website. It

00:04:51   seems to be mostly very small things. They've added some little bits and bobs, right, like

00:04:57   different actions for some different applications. But they've also have a column of items that

00:05:06   adjust for the iOS 11 beta, which is good.

00:05:09   I mean, it shows that they are attempting

00:05:12   to keep the app running well, which is a good sign.

00:05:15   I think that was something we were worried about.

00:05:17   But I think what remains to be seen

00:05:19   is what the actual application is doing now.

00:05:22   Like, are we just in maintenance mode here?

00:05:25   - Right, just bug fixes, or is there new,

00:05:28   exciting stuff coming for 11?

00:05:30   - Exactly.

00:05:31   - I would have read that page,

00:05:32   but they didn't put in their app store release notes.

00:05:34   It just said bug fixes and compatibility improvements.

00:05:37   So I didn't read the document that they put out

00:05:39   because they put out--

00:05:40   They changed it then.

00:05:42   --crutty app store release notes.

00:05:43   Oh, how interesting.

00:05:44   They changed it because when I got it,

00:05:46   it told me to look at the URL.

00:05:46   I looked this morning.

00:05:47   Yeah, I looked this-- well, the URL's there,

00:05:49   but you can't tap on it.

00:05:50   Well, but like--

00:05:51   Oh, come on.

00:05:52   Put it in the release notes.

00:05:53   That's why they're there.

00:05:54   This is a bigger rant about many apps.

00:05:57   But workflow, you should know better.

00:05:59   Workflow 1.7.5 includes bug fixes and compatibility

00:06:02   improvements.

00:06:03   See the full list of changes of workflow.ly/what'snew.

00:06:06   I don't think that's too difficult.

00:06:07   - It's lazy.

00:06:09   Anyways, I agree with you.

00:06:11   Like the question now is, is it maintenance mode?

00:06:14   Like Federico, do you remember Federico?

00:06:15   He used to be on the show.

00:06:17   He had a tweet or something recently talking about

00:06:20   like the possibilities of an I was loving.

00:06:23   You and I were talking about it this week.

00:06:25   Like how cool would it be to have your workflows up

00:06:26   in split view and drag a bunch of content onto a workflow

00:06:30   and let it fire?

00:06:31   Like all sorts of things could happen.

00:06:33   and I hope they're working on that.

00:06:34   I kinda think they probably are,

00:06:36   but I think we'll see more as the fall rolls on, hopefully.

00:06:41   - Yeah, I mean, we could've asked this question about them,

00:06:45   whether they were bought by Apple or not.

00:06:47   - Sure.

00:06:48   - Right, like, there's no way of knowing

00:06:50   if someone's gonna actually implement

00:06:52   the features that you want,

00:06:53   so we're kind of in the same area,

00:06:56   but I don't know of anyone that has a workflow beta.

00:07:00   Like, I don't know.

00:07:02   I mean, people may, but I don't know.

00:07:04   I've not seen anything.

00:07:06   So I know as much as anybody else knows

00:07:08   as to whether they're actually implementing these features.

00:07:10   - Yeah, and being an internal team,

00:07:12   that may have come to an end.

00:07:12   I don't really know either.

00:07:14   - Yeah, I have faith, though.

00:07:15   - Me too.

00:07:16   I'm choosing to remain positive about it,

00:07:18   that because they're doing bug fixes,

00:07:20   because they are doing something,

00:07:22   I want to believe they're doing a lot more than this.

00:07:25   And it's a whole lot of really smart people

00:07:27   working on something that's great,

00:07:28   just for it to be limping along.

00:07:30   So fingers crossed, I think, for me.

00:07:33   - So the reason that I am here and that we are together,

00:07:36   that isn't the reason that Federico's away.

00:07:39   Federico just couldn't make it today.

00:07:42   - It was sad that he wasn't here.

00:07:43   - He is very sad and he wants you all to know

00:07:44   that he loves you so much, but he couldn't make it today,

00:07:48   which is okay, I think that's okay.

00:07:50   The reason that I'm here is because it is Real AFM's

00:07:55   third anniversary this week, so me and Steven get together

00:07:57   kind of around this time every year,

00:07:59   so we can go over some stuff business-wise,

00:08:01   but also because we have a lot of fun things

00:08:03   happening this week,

00:08:05   and actually throughout the rest of the month,

00:08:07   lots of Relay FM bonuses will be occurring.

00:08:10   If you are a Relay FM member,

00:08:11   we've mentioned this in the past,

00:08:13   go to relay.fm/membership and you can sign up,

00:08:16   support any show and you'll receive all of the bonuses,

00:08:19   which currently the feed, the bonus feed,

00:08:21   includes our connected bonus episode

00:08:23   where we talk about our home screens, that's already out,

00:08:25   and there is some fantastic stuff coming

00:08:27   the rest of the month and this includes a new we have a new perk which is 5k

00:08:33   wallpapers desktop wallpapers of all of the relay FM show artwork they're

00:08:39   beautiful which are amazing and they are now available to members if you're an

00:08:42   existing member take a look at your email if you're a new member there'll be

00:08:45   a link in the email that we send you it's all email just everybody just check

00:08:49   your email right now and then maybe you'll have a link and if you don't it

00:08:52   means you need to become a member so go to relay.fm/membership please

00:08:55   sign up we'd really appreciate it and we try and give you lots and lots of fun bonus content

00:08:59   to make that worth your while.

00:09:01   Whilst we're focused on our lovely company here, we have a new design for our website

00:09:07   which we haven't really spoken about too much yet.

00:09:10   Yeah, so we launched this Sunday night. There's a blog post on the Relay blog talking about

00:09:16   it. The idea was to make the site feel and look much more like the rest of Relay. The

00:09:21   website came from a time very early on in the company and we've finally been able to

00:09:26   come back around to it. It's much faster, it's much easier to see what's new and discover

00:09:30   more and the guys behind it, so the mysterious Twitter user ForgottenTowel and then a developer

00:09:37   here in Memphis by the name of Jason, both have worked extremely hard on this and I'm

00:09:43   really happy with it. It looks really good.

00:09:45   Yeah, my favorite thing about the new design is that each show when you click into an episode

00:09:50   or a show they get their own color. The page kind of changes color based upon the show

00:09:55   and it helps give each of our podcasts at Relay FM their own identity when you're on

00:10:02   the website and I really liked that. I think that was a really nice touch. Whoever it was

00:10:06   that came up with that was very smart. It wasn't me. I'm not trying to take that glory

00:10:10   but one of the crew, the web design team came up with it and yeah we really love it. There

00:10:15   are still some things that need polishing because as everybody knows it doesn't matter

00:10:20   how great you test something once you put it to production, things start to go wrong

00:10:23   and we're working our way through a lot of those little things now.

00:10:27   But yeah, we're really really happy with it and I want to extend my thanks to Steven for

00:10:31   managing it and to Frank and Jason for doing all the hard work putting the thing together.

00:10:36   It is a, it was a huge long project that's been going on for a while and it was really

00:10:41   great that we got to unveil it this week.

00:10:43   It was a lot of fun.

00:10:44   We also did our annual Q&A, but this time we did it on video.

00:10:49   sure did over on my YouTube channel. We put together a Q&A video which I recommend that

00:10:55   you watch. If you're interested in learning more about how we think about our company,

00:11:00   then definitely take some time, watch the video. It's about 30 minutes long. We answer

00:11:04   a bunch of great questions from Relay FM listeners. If you're not really that interested, just

00:11:09   watch the first 30 seconds and the last 30 seconds and you won't be disappointed, I think.

00:11:13   Yeah, it's really something. It was a lot of fun to do.

00:11:17   Yeah, we put that together all in the studio.

00:11:18   So you also get to see a little bit of Steven's studio as well.

00:11:20   So I recommend that you go ahead and watch that because we had a lot of fun

00:11:24   putting that together.

00:11:25   All right.

00:11:27   So should we take our first break?

00:11:28   Let's do it.

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00:13:05   Blue Apron, a better way to cook.

00:13:08   - More follow up.

00:13:09   - More follow up, all the great follow up.

00:13:11   Chris Latner, Chris Latner you may remember,

00:13:14   he spent a long time at Apple.

00:13:16   He created Swift along with some other stuff.

00:13:19   I think Clang and LLVM, which my understanding

00:13:22   is they are compilers and that's the end of my knowledge.

00:13:25   - Yeah.

00:13:26   - Do a good job?

00:13:27   - It's good.

00:13:28   He left Apple sometime in the last few months.

00:13:31   He went to Tesla, as you may remember, which was big news.

00:13:36   Or like four days.

00:13:37   He then left Tesla for what seemed like differences.

00:13:41   Yeah, it seemed mutual.

00:13:45   And so he put out a statement and then sort of cleaned the statement up afterwards that

00:13:50   it just wasn't a good fit.

00:13:51   So whatever happened, wasn't a good fit.

00:13:54   The news now is that he has landed at Google working on Google Brain

00:13:58   Which we actually had to look up because neither of us were that familiar with it

00:14:01   No, I I've never heard of Google Brain before and I think they don't talk about it really which is the reason

00:14:08   But I went and took a look at it. I did some

00:14:11   Googling I found out that Google Brain is a team focused on

00:14:16   artificial intelligence and deep learning and they are actually a part of Google's research arm and

00:14:22   And from the page, this is what I read,

00:14:24   "Google Brain team members set their own research agenda,

00:14:28   with the team as a whole maintaining a portfolio of projects

00:14:30   across different time horizons and levels of risk."

00:14:34   So when I read this, take a look at this and look at the fact

00:14:38   that Latner left Apple, who are clearly starting to work on AI,

00:14:42   and then he went to Tesla and then left Tesla so quickly,

00:14:47   my kind of read on this is that maybe he wasn't able to work

00:14:51   on what he wanted to work on at Apple which is clearly artificial intelligence because

00:14:56   he's taken two AI focused roles since he left Apple. I assume that Apple probably wanted

00:15:01   him to focus on Swift because that was where he was best fitting for them. So he must have

00:15:06   wanted to go and work on AI. Again this is all just conjecture, I'm just trying to read

00:15:10   the tea leaves on it. And my assumption is that for whatever reason he couldn't get on

00:15:16   with the people at Tesla or didn't like the work or it just wasn't a fit for him. But

00:15:21   this role at Google seems like it would give him a lot of flexibility to work on whatever

00:15:26   he's interested in, right? Like setting your own agenda for research seems like a real

00:15:30   kind of pie in the sky, airy fairy type job, right? Like you can go in and think and write

00:15:37   and like it's incredibly smart and there are lots of incredible people and stuff comes

00:15:41   out of that, but it feels very relaxed, right? Like in what you'd be able to do as an individual,

00:15:47   right? Like it feels like something that is Google just hire a bunch of smart people on

00:15:51   the off chance that one of them might have a great idea.

00:15:53   Yeah, it seems like a very academic setting.

00:15:56   And I'd imagine that's a change of pace from working on compilers and languages and even

00:16:02   from Tesla where he was over sort of real products and real things.

00:16:06   This seems a little more abstract, but I wish him all the best and I think it's interesting

00:16:11   that that's where he is and at least the two of us and hopefully maybe some of our listeners

00:16:15   learned a little bit more about this program at Google.

00:16:18   I think it's fascinating that these companies have little pockets where it's just super

00:16:23   smart people doing research and doing stuff that could take place in an academic setting

00:16:28   but within the walls of a corporation.

00:16:31   Yeah, I think this may be the last we hear from Chris Lattner for a while.

00:16:38   And I hope that the reason is because he fits there.

00:16:41   Yeah.

00:16:42   Yeah, I don't know how much like public research comes out of this.

00:16:44   I know that's been a conversation.

00:16:46   Probably a bit.

00:16:47   on Apple right? Where people wanted to publish their research and so

00:16:52   Apple made a blog, we didn't call it a blog, and you know journal writing and

00:16:56   all this stuff is very important in this industry so I think that we will over

00:17:01   some time after some time passes we'll see a little bit more about what he's up

00:17:04   to there. All right we got an abundance of follow-up and feedback from the

00:17:13   connected audience about AirPods interference. I started saving tweets and

00:17:18   then had to stop. It got out of hand. Because there were too many like it and

00:17:22   everybody was saying very similar things so to kind of sum up what we heard about

00:17:26   AirPod interference it seems that a lot of people have these problems whilst in

00:17:32   big cities, like walking around in big cities. So we had lots of reports from

00:17:37   people who struggled with their AirPods breaking up whilst they're listening to

00:17:40   them in New York, San Francisco and London. They seem to be like the pockets that were really

00:17:46   giving me information like a lot, you know, people called out where they'd had issues.

00:17:51   So it seems that there is something going on here, but it's intermittent enough that it's not

00:18:01   considered to be an issue, which I completely understand. But the best possible explanation

00:18:07   for this came in from Yoni and Yoni says there are broadcast wireless microphones that sit close to

00:18:16   the radio frequency of bluetooth for bluetooth audio so it is possible that when you go by

00:18:22   or when you walk past certain places in cities where there could be broadcast microphones

00:18:27   bluetooth would break up on audio devices. Now this might not be the only explanation

00:18:35   but it seemed like a good explanation to me, especially because I was having the most problems

00:18:42   whilst I was walking through Times Square. Which is just chock full of stuff.

00:18:46   Yeah. So when I was walking through Times Square, like right in the center,

00:18:50   I could barely hear them. And then as I would get further away, it would get better. So it could

00:18:56   just be that it's like radio interference from other types of microphones and things like that,

00:19:01   that kind of break up. So I think whatever the exact cause is radio

00:19:05   interference is probably the reason for this. Yeah I'll go with that. It was it

00:19:10   was really surprising to me to see how many people have this exact thing. Yeah

00:19:15   what I found surprising is how many people seem to have it but I've never

00:19:18   heard that it was a thing. Yeah me too I mean I didn't had it I mean I guess it

00:19:23   if I had thought about it it would have made sense but yeah I've never really

00:19:26   come across it. But like even when it's happening to me I'm not like oh man

00:19:29   these things are broken. I'm assuming it is something that is going on around me,

00:19:35   so I think that's probably why people don't talk about it very much because it's not an issue, right?

00:19:39   Yeah. So we should talk about the Marco service trademark.

00:19:43   Trademark. Trademark. Is that the right one? Is the trademark the right one? So Tyler wrote in

00:19:49   to confirm that the service that Marco Armond provided him when he bought, I think, an iPad

00:19:55   from Marco was indeed top notch like the service that I received from buying my MacBook Pro

00:20:01   so I think that we can attest that buying things from Marco you're going to get the

00:20:05   best service possible.

00:20:07   Yeah, I've purchased a camera from him in the past as well and it's great. It came all

00:20:11   wrapped up with a little bow on top. There wasn't a bow.

00:20:16   I bet there was. So I guess our recommendation is if Marco's selling it, buy it?

00:20:23   So what do you think about the MacBook Pro? It's sitting here on the desk. How has it

00:20:26   been in the week or so that you've had it? Would you say that I was right? He's nodding

00:20:34   quietly.

00:20:35   So no, the idea of claiming the rightness is...

00:20:39   Perfectly accurate.

00:20:42   I mean...

00:20:43   And fair.

00:20:44   This came up because I questioned it myself.

00:20:47   Well earned.

00:20:48   you just jumped in like a hyena to pick the bones of my consternation.

00:20:55   Wow.

00:20:56   I know.

00:20:56   So I would say that your recommendation, especially if your recommendation was for me to get this

00:21:04   exact machine, was right. That you were right to recommend it. Because I love it. I think

00:21:10   it's fantastic. This MacBook Pro is brilliant. It's the best MacBook Pro I've ever had. I

00:21:16   actually been using it predominantly the last few days, not because, you know,

00:21:23   there's nothing wrong with my iPad, I love my iPad, it's better than the MacBook Pro for

00:21:27   everything I want to do with that for me, but I have been focused on just the

00:21:38   types of work that I need for, that I need to be able to do on on Mac OS.

00:21:43   So anyway, over the last few days I've been spending so much time on this and I've come

00:21:49   to love the keyboard which I wasn't expecting.

00:21:52   It's way too loud but it feels nice to touch the O key on this keyboard that's been sticking

00:21:57   for me.

00:21:58   That's fine.

00:21:59   Which is funny because I remember Marco having those exact problems with this exact machine.

00:22:04   It made me laugh when it happened.

00:22:05   But yeah it's great, it's super powerful.

00:22:09   like I can't notice too much of a difference between it and my iMac honestly, some tasks

00:22:15   which is really impressive. So yeah I think this is fantastic and I'm pleased that I got

00:22:21   it because I think I would have lost my mind by now with trying to do all this stuff on

00:22:25   the MacBook. I think so because you're doing so much production on the road. Yeah I am.

00:22:30   Yeah well good. I'm glad it's here. To do a little more follow up I did provide you

00:22:36   with a couple of stickers on the back and we had some stickers show up in the mail

00:22:40   so you got some of those. So it is slowly

00:22:43   you got two or three on there now? There's two on there. So you're slowly getting there.

00:22:47   Yeah it will take its time as it becomes part of the family.

00:22:50   Yeah it's good I'm glad you're happy with it and

00:22:54   I think the more thing about the more I think the two port

00:22:59   no touch bar MacBook Pro is probably like the right MacBook for most people.

00:23:05   We, as I was talking to somebody today, who's, who's thinking about replacing an

00:23:08   older MacBook Air.

00:23:09   And that's kind of what I said to them like this, you know, it's a little bit

00:23:13   more than the MacBook Air would have been, especially if you need some storage

00:23:16   space, right?

00:23:16   That that cheap model is, it's pretty cheap as far as it's going to be as far

00:23:22   as storage.

00:23:23   But, but I think it's kind of the default right answer for me now that the MacBook

00:23:28   is great if the portability is the most important thing.

00:23:31   But I think as far as like balance, the no touch bar is probably the way to go.

00:23:38   Yeah, I think I agree with you. I think I agree with you. Like this provides you with most of the

00:23:43   power that you're going to need whilst also keeping the price lower. And I don't know if

00:23:52   the touch bar is ready for prime time right now. And I don't know if it's going to get there.

00:23:57   But I just don't, whenever I see people using it, it looks nice, but I haven't seen any

00:24:04   application of it so far that I'm like, well that makes perfect sense.

00:24:08   That's way better than a button.

00:24:09   Yeah, I agree and I've got the touch bar sitting in front of me.

00:24:13   And really I kept this machine and sold my two port because I needed four ports for some

00:24:18   of the stuff I do.

00:24:20   But the touch bar is real lackluster at this point.

00:24:24   Yeah, they had a way to put more ports on the the the

00:24:28   What is it called what is this machine called ATP cause of the escape? Yeah, I know but what it is a MacBook Pro

00:24:35   13-inch like parenthetical to

00:24:38   Thunderbolt 3 port or so get it just it would be nice to put more ports. Their names are awful. Their names are really bad

00:24:43   Well good. I'm glad it's working out. Yeah, me too. Me too

00:24:47   And it was it was a great it was a great decision to make I think and also

00:24:52   I've traveled with it in a bag and didn't notice. Yeah, I mean you're going from two to three pounds

00:24:58   They're also light. Yeah, it's

00:25:01   It's all it's all great

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00:26:58   - So we have new beta bits.

00:27:00   - Yep, we have a new beta, beta six.

00:27:04   We had beta five last week.

00:27:06   Now we have beta six this week.

00:27:08   And I think the reason for that is pretty clear

00:27:11   if you were using beta five, it was buggy.

00:27:14   - Yeah, it was rough.

00:27:15   - It was pretty buggy.

00:27:16   I had to keep, I had to do many many forced restarts over the week just because of things

00:27:22   like the doc not appearing, multitasking not working, you know I wasn't able to split screen

00:27:27   any applications like there were lots and lots of little problems, my wallpaper kept

00:27:31   disappearing and it was replaced with a black screen.

00:27:33   That was my favorite.

00:27:35   Except for the background of notifications which was kind of cool.

00:27:39   It was a good look.

00:27:40   Yeah it was super buggy.

00:27:42   There are bugs in 6, so currently every application that I open for the first time opens in the

00:27:47   wrong orientation when I'm in landscape, and then I have to close it and reopen it again.

00:27:51   This is what beta life is all about, but beta 5 was particularly bad.

00:27:56   However, beta 6 has introduced a few things which has set the internet ablaze, namely

00:28:03   a couple of icons.

00:28:05   Now I want to start with the maps icon, because I think this is the less egregious of the

00:28:09   two.

00:28:10   So Apple have taken the maps icon which used to show a road that was leading into One Infinite

00:28:17   Loop and have replaced it with a new icon which shows a road leading into Apple Park.

00:28:24   And I see many people tell me, well not tell me, tell the internet, kind of me, that for

00:28:29   some reason they don't like it.

00:28:32   And I can't understand what's wrong with this icon.

00:28:38   I have no... it's basically the same parts that were on the previous one just

00:28:43   remixed.

00:28:43   Just in a different orientation like they're just mixed around a little bit more and there's a circle in it now like

00:28:47   I don't fully understand like why this icon would make you mad if the old one

00:28:54   didn't like putting them side by side I don't

00:28:57   I don't see what the problem is.

00:29:00   Yeah.

00:29:01   So that's yeah that's very very peculiar to me.

00:29:05   - Yeah, and all these people have maps

00:29:07   on their home screen, that seems dubious.

00:29:09   But I'm fine with it.

00:29:11   But we should talk about the App Store icon.

00:29:12   - Yeah, this is the one that people are really upset about.

00:29:14   - So it has been different in iOS 11 than it was in iOS 10.

00:29:19   And it's always kind of been an A of some sort,

00:29:23   right, that sort of Apple's indication

00:29:25   for an application bundle on the Mac.

00:29:27   It's a very simple A.

00:29:29   The new one looks, I see like three Popsicle sticks

00:29:33   forming an A.

00:29:34   It's sort of a test.

00:29:35   Some people say it looked like a lean-to

00:29:38   or some sort of skiing house structure.

00:29:40   I see popsicle sticks.

00:29:42   What do you think about this?

00:29:43   - I mean, I see architectural drawing.

00:29:45   I can look at it.

00:29:46   - Yeah, kind of.

00:29:48   - Like it's a blueprint.

00:29:50   That's what it looks like to me.

00:29:51   And I think that that makes sense to me in my mind,

00:29:54   like this kind of like a blueprint.

00:29:56   It's showing that something's being built.

00:29:58   I think it's fine.

00:30:01   I don't understand.

00:30:04   I like it. It's like fine. Yeah, I don't you know, I don't really care for it like the old one better

00:30:09   But it's whatever it's an icon design. Like I don't think this is something that is is all like we're only talking about it because of the

00:30:15   Response it got like otherwise this would not be a story. It would have been a simple bullet point, right?

00:30:22   I have no problem with this icon. Um, I think it's pleasing to the eye

00:30:29   And that's kind of about it really like Apple have had a history of weird icons

00:30:35   right like so many of the iOS 7 beta 1 beta 2 icons were just like

00:30:40   Some of those remain with us basically unchanged Safari's basically the same photos is basically the change

00:30:45   I'm not a problem with safari photos. We've come to grow actually really like the photos one

00:30:49   Yeah, they've we've come they've come to grow on us and at some point

00:30:52   we'll look back on this application the App Store icon and

00:30:55   And it will be just how it always has been.

00:30:59   And everything before it will look old.

00:31:00   It's just the way that these things--

00:31:02   I mean, I'm looking at the icon on the Mac App Store

00:31:07   on this Mac in front of me, right?

00:31:09   That is not nice looking to me.

00:31:11   It's a pencil and a paintbrush and a straight line.

00:31:15   That's very much how Apple has formed

00:31:17   that A for a really long time.

00:31:19   I don't like--

00:31:20   I mean, when I look at it, like, objectively,

00:31:24   I take myself out knowing what it is and just look at it.

00:31:27   I don't like that any, you know,

00:31:30   I don't look at that and be like,

00:31:31   "Oh my gosh, that is so much better

00:31:33   "than the one we have now."

00:31:35   Because effectively, the one that we have now,

00:31:37   the one that potentially we'll have,

00:31:40   it's the same idea but just taking away the skeuomorphism,

00:31:45   if you would call it that, of a paintbrush and a pencil.

00:31:48   Right, like it's the same layout,

00:31:49   it's the same three things.

00:31:50   - It's just sort of flattened out into sticks.

00:31:54   - Yeah, and I think that it's fine.

00:31:55   But I do think that it looks weird

00:31:58   next to the iTunes store icon.

00:32:00   - Which is just a glyph of a star on a purple background.

00:32:04   - And my assumption is those things

00:32:06   should match up in some way.

00:32:07   Like I think it does look a bit peculiar

00:32:09   next to that one now, because they kind of fit together

00:32:12   in the previous version, so I don't know.

00:32:16   I think maybe an outline, a star outline,

00:32:18   would make more sense to me.

00:32:19   - Or a little drop shadow in there.

00:32:21   just something to sort of punch it up a little bit.

00:32:24   - But yeah, I don't, you know, it doesn't bother me too much.

00:32:26   - Can we agree that the health icon

00:32:28   is really the worst of the defaults?

00:32:29   - It's kind of a bit lazy, isn't it really?

00:32:32   - It's a white field with a red heart

00:32:34   in like the upper right corner that takes up authority.

00:32:37   - I mean, I like the upper right corner thing

00:32:38   'cause it's like, ah, that's where the heart is, but like--

00:32:41   - It's where the heart is.

00:32:41   - Yeah, it's where the heart is.

00:32:42   Home screen is where the heart is.

00:32:46   I do like the settings, the increased settings.

00:32:51   The contrast, I do too.

00:32:53   That's sticking out to me a lot.

00:32:56   Yeah.

00:32:57   But I do like it.

00:32:58   I used to keep settings on my dock

00:32:59   and the internet shamed me in doing that.

00:33:02   Internet shamed people into a lot of different things.

00:33:05   And they fixed reminders, they flipped it back around again.

00:33:07   Oh did they?

00:33:08   Yeah, they flipped it back around again.

00:33:09   That was super weird with it on the right side.

00:33:11   One of the other big features or changes

00:33:14   is around auto brightness.

00:33:15   So question, do you have your devices auto brightness on or off?

00:33:20   Off.

00:33:22   Okay. Now I know that Federico has it off and keeps his devices on maximum,

00:33:26   which I don't understand how he has any retinas.

00:33:28   I leave it on. I don't know why you wouldn't.

00:33:32   I think when I turned it off the first time it was very good yet and I just said

00:33:37   that's just been my default. Like this is something I do.

00:33:40   So you set and do you must be changing your brightness all the time, right?

00:33:43   I mean most of the time I'm using a device that's with lights on.

00:33:48   I don't use my devices in bed or late with no lights on very much.

00:33:51   Yeah, which also surprises me that Federico doesn't like this feature.

00:33:55   Since he works in the dark like 12 hours a day.

00:33:58   So I mean I have used auto brightness and it works fine for me.

00:34:02   I very rarely find myself in a situation where I need to bring it up or down.

00:34:06   I do do it but I know I don't do it as much as I would do it if I had this feature off.

00:34:11   everybody's gonna get the chance to experience this now. Because auto

00:34:15   brightness is now on by default for everybody I believe they're changing the

00:34:21   default. I could tell you my phone's over there though. And that it is now an

00:34:26   accessibility feature. That's the most interesting to me that that's where they

00:34:29   put it that this is not just a statement of we think you should use auto

00:34:32   brightness. They've hidden it. But the statement is auto brightness is the way

00:34:36   forward. Yeah. And I assume this is about battery life or... There is literally some

00:34:42   some warning text that says that if you turn it off it will decrease your

00:34:46   battery life. Wow. Yeah. It's heavy-handed. Yeah. So there you go. I don't know much

00:34:50   maybe someone can help so maybe you know this is so on the like the LCD panels

00:34:55   they use on the on the iPhone and iPad when they move to OLED with this new

00:34:58   phone which is rumored is backlight usage more battery intensive on an OLED

00:35:03   display than an LCD? I don't know. I have no idea. If you know this please let us

00:35:08   know and maybe that's part of the puzzle here of we're moving to something new

00:35:13   and and it's gonna work better or they just think auto brightness has gotten

00:35:17   good enough where they can just do it and you know. That's what I think like I

00:35:20   don't understand why somebody would need to manage their brightness manually like

00:35:24   I never have problems with auto brightness. Yeah. But it is weird to take a

00:35:29   feature like that and stuff it into accessibility settings and then change

00:35:32   the defaults potentially. I mean I've said that but I'm not 100% sure but I

00:35:36   believe that it is changed for people like that they've set it and then they

00:35:39   pushed it away. I don't think that this is a one that they need to go back on

00:35:44   though. I think like this is something that people don't maybe don't like but

00:35:47   you can still fix it if you really need to. If you're the type of user who is

00:35:51   gonna notice auto brightness is on and don't want it you're the same kind of

00:35:55   user who probably knows where accessibility settings are. Yeah and

00:35:59   the fact that they still give you the option if you really must have that option, that's fine.

00:36:04   And I actually can assume that there are some accessibility reasons why they have kept it

00:36:09   around, like that there are there are genuine reasons that somebody might want to have it

00:36:13   rather than just personal preference. So it's good that they've kept it, but it is interesting

00:36:18   that they changed it. But I'm not sure if this really says anything about the next iPhone. Like

00:36:25   if the battery life thing is a thing then yeah but this doesn't screen that to me.

00:36:30   without knowing the information. yeah unless there's something about ola that we just don't

00:36:35   know. yeah exactly. yeah it just may just be hey we're gonna do this and this is the beta that it

00:36:39   made it into. so talking about the new phone or the leaked details of the new phone, there's a

00:36:49   a rendering of a phone going around put together by Steve

00:36:53   Trout Smith of the notch at the top of the screen,

00:36:58   but also being present at the bottom of the screen.

00:37:02   Yeah, so just to clarify that, so Steve Trout Smith,

00:37:05   he has given more information, which

00:37:07   led to a user experience designer

00:37:09   by the name of Maxim Petrov to create the actual images

00:37:13   that 9to5Mac had published in their post.

00:37:15   So I think that Steve created an idea,

00:37:18   And then somebody went ahead and pushed that a little bit

00:37:21   further to show what it could look like in use.

00:37:24   So this brings up the questions that we've been talking about.

00:37:28   Will iOS 11 sort of flow around the notch

00:37:31   and you have stuff on either side of it?

00:37:33   Or are they going to lob it off with dark pixels

00:37:36   to make it look flat at the top?

00:37:38   Or at the bottom, like these renderings at the bottom

00:37:41   is really where I disagree with this idea.

00:37:44   I don't-- I mean, they could do it, right?

00:37:46   Obviously in three weeks this could be moot.

00:37:48   'Cause one of the images shows a mirror image

00:37:52   that you would create in software a notch at the bottom,

00:37:56   which doesn't actually really exist.

00:37:57   - Yeah, yeah, I don't know.

00:38:00   And if you have an app like Tweetbot

00:38:02   with your controls and tabs across the bottom,

00:38:05   they sort of get pushed up a little bit,

00:38:07   and the outer ones kind of fall around.

00:38:11   It is as awkward as it is at the top,

00:38:13   the status bar can take care of itself

00:38:15   with the new icons they're using.

00:38:17   But at the bottom, so much stuff goes down there.

00:38:20   I just don't know if I buy that not being a completely flat

00:38:25   level starting point at the bottom of the screen.

00:38:28   - Yeah, because I am still of the opinion

00:38:31   that the home button will not be a persistent thing

00:38:34   and that you'll be able to do more interesting things with it

00:38:36   than it just live there.

00:38:38   So, I mean, I understand why you might wanna do this

00:38:41   for visual reasons, but I figure if you wanna do this

00:38:44   then you may as well actually just put a button there.

00:38:46   - A tiny little, tiny little baby button.

00:38:48   - Like a really physical button

00:38:49   and just double up the notch.

00:38:50   I think that it would be weird to have this mirror image

00:38:55   in place sometimes and not other times,

00:38:57   because by making it in place,

00:38:59   it makes it look as part of the industrial design

00:39:01   and therefore the silhouette of the phone,

00:39:03   which isn't actually how the phone's gonna look.

00:39:05   - Right.

00:39:06   I think if this were like a hardware notch,

00:39:08   we would have seen it in those Apple Pay icons

00:39:11   that got dug up in the HomePod firmware.

00:39:13   - I think we're gonna be very confident

00:39:14   like the screen is flat at the bottom. I hope so. Nothing pops up into the bottom at this point.

00:39:19   So let's talk about the notch a little bit. We spoke last week or two weeks ago about the

00:39:23   possibility, and MQHD had a video of a mock-up with a white front glass, and so the notch was

00:39:30   white. Which made me say that I thought that they wouldn't do it because they wanted to like show

00:39:35   off how the OLED screens look, right? Right. So I've had a thought that if they decide to sort

00:39:41   sort of cover up the notch so that if the cover glass is black the notch would

00:39:46   be black glass with the cameras and stuff sunk into it the status bar on

00:39:50   either side of it would be black and so looking at it it would appear if the if

00:39:54   the top of the screen were actually flat as it is now you're kind of blending

00:39:57   software and hardware at the top to hide it yep and if they do that with a black

00:40:03   status bar and white glass I think to your point I agree with you it looks

00:40:07   kind of icky but and talking about and thinking about it some more there's

00:40:13   nothing saying that they couldn't have a white status bar on the white front

00:40:18   phones and the rest of the UI could be the same when you pull it down you know

00:40:23   the very top would stay white but the rest of it I think would work you know

00:40:26   when you go into your notifications or widgets or something I think it would

00:40:29   work and when all that stuff is closed you're just on your home screen or on an

00:40:34   app it blends really seamlessly. I think they could actually look really really

00:40:40   nice because so much of iOS is white now. Like I think maybe it would look as good

00:40:45   or even better than the black front if they decided to blend software and

00:40:48   hardware at the top and use a white status bar instead of a black one. And

00:40:52   there is some precedent for this. I don't know what version of iOS it was but for

00:40:57   years now the startup screen on iOS with the splash screen with the logo has

00:41:04   matched the color of the device if you have a white iPad you get a white screen

00:41:09   if you have a black iPad you get a black screen they're already aware of that and

00:41:13   they can do things with it so why not if you're gonna hide the notch if you're

00:41:16   going to absorb it and with pixels on either side why not go all the way so

00:41:23   basically what you're proposing then is that it could be possible that if you

00:41:28   had a phone with a white face on it that the status bar is all white and then the rest

00:41:35   of the UI remains as it is. So what we currently see as a black status bar at the top of the

00:41:39   phone would be a white status bar and it would include cell reception, clock and battery

00:41:43   per se. So I think that this is an interesting idea as like a way to blend the colors together.

00:41:49   The only question I have though is like how good it will actually look. So what we're

00:41:56   expecting is that one of the reasons Apple is able to potentially do this to

00:42:01   blend everything together is because OLED blacks are basically true blacks

00:42:04   right so it is more likely then if everything's black for to all look like

00:42:09   it blends in together I'm wondering if white replication would be as close or

00:42:16   maybe weird once you get into night shift or something I don't think it

00:42:20   would I don't think the blending would be nearly as good cuz like you said black

00:42:23   on OLED is basically off and it would look very seamless I think. So yeah it

00:42:28   may be some trade-off but I think it would be better than my aesthetic

00:42:34   having those ears up there. I'm inclined to agree with you there right that I feel

00:42:38   that having a really having this white front would look really peculiar when

00:42:45   it's all off and stuff like as I said before like it feels like if you have a

00:42:49   an almost edge-to-edge display, try your best to hide the edges. Yeah. And I think

00:42:55   that white doesn't do that but we'll see. I mean you know if people really like

00:42:59   white phones, I mean and this might be like one of these things where it's like

00:43:03   a data point that Apple can't ignore that maybe they sell more white iPhones

00:43:06   than black iPhones and if that's the case can you really go and not make a

00:43:11   white iPhone? I mean forever they've used white front glass on the majority of

00:43:15   of their color options.

00:43:17   - You can buy what, five colors now

00:43:19   and three of them have a white face?

00:43:21   - Yeah, red, silver and gold are all white

00:43:24   and then black and jet black.

00:43:24   - Oh no, it's actually more than that, isn't it?

00:43:26   It's red, silver, rose gold and gold, it's four.

00:43:30   And then there's two black.

00:43:31   - Yeah, black and jet black.

00:43:33   - So this has been, maybe since they first introduced gold,

00:43:38   there have been more white-faced iPhones

00:43:40   available for purchase,

00:43:41   which therefore might skew the numbers.

00:43:43   So like if you're looking at the numbers,

00:43:45   we sell white to black iPhones three to one.

00:43:48   - Then they've got to account for that.

00:43:50   - You've at least got to take a go with it, right,

00:43:51   and see if people actually like it or not.

00:43:53   That could be, I mean, that's one of those things

00:43:55   of like, how do you ignore that?

00:43:57   And I feel like Apple, just how I believe they work

00:44:02   these days is maybe they work a little bit more

00:44:04   data-driven in that way.

00:44:05   - Yeah.

00:44:06   - And not just so much based purely on design.

00:44:08   - I think so.

00:44:09   - So that might be something, a reason for it.

00:44:12   'Cause I really think that it's just not gonna look

00:44:14   good as the black ones. Yeah but either way I want them out of all these ideas I

00:44:18   would like them to work to hide the notch into the screen. I don't want I

00:44:22   think a flat top screen is more pleasing to me personally. Yeah yeah

00:44:28   we'll see how that goes. I am though I think in the embrace the notch team. I

00:44:36   kind of want I when we look at these whenever you look at these these mockups

00:44:43   You kind of see two things right now one of them just shows like the UI flat across the screen and then the other shows

00:44:50   The UI going up into the corners little Batman ears little Batman ears

00:44:53   I want it to go all the way up into the corners because to me it's like I have that screen don't waste it

00:44:57   like and this is how I feel about the the

00:45:00   If they just have like this

00:45:02   Home button on the screen with blank space on the left to the right of it

00:45:06   I feel like it's a waste of this big screen

00:45:08   Like don't give me a big screen and then waste it like find a way to use it

00:45:12   If you don't know what that way is keep working harder until you find out what it is

00:45:16   Like just giving me a phone that has this fantastic screen, but with a ton of unusable space

00:45:21   It's like well, why are we even doing this?

00:45:23   I think that depends on how deep that notch goes if it's just the status bar

00:45:27   Then it kind of comes out in the wash I think

00:45:30   But yeah, if it's further if it pushes into the content area somehow, right?

00:45:34   But if they cut off the UI, then why even do it?

00:45:38   Well, if all that would be lost is the status bar,

00:45:41   and you put the status bar on either side of the notch,

00:45:42   you haven't lost anything.

00:45:43   No.

00:45:43   But I mean, there are different mock-ups.

00:45:45   Some of the mock-ups just have it go flat straight

00:45:46   across the top, like completely unused,

00:45:48   and the UI remains the same.

00:45:50   So we'll see.

00:45:51   I mean, I am enjoying this.

00:45:53   I know we are spending more time on iPhone rumors

00:45:58   than we ever have in the past.

00:46:00   Usually you don't get Apple leaking firmware that details

00:46:02   it.

00:46:03   But like also this iPhone has a level of excitement around it that I don't think we've had for a few years.

00:46:08   Yeah.

00:46:08   Right, where like the physical design of the iPhone can inform some new decisions about the way the software is designed.

00:46:16   That hasn't happened since the Plus.

00:46:18   And that was a long time ago.

00:46:21   And like the last three iPhones that we've had, or maybe two iPhones,

00:46:25   they've looked exactly the same as the one that came before it.

00:46:29   that there wasn't really much of an interest in discussion to be had around the hardware

00:46:32   of the device, but we get to have that discussion now.

00:46:36   And that's kind of why I'm excited to continue talking about this.

00:46:41   But we're probably like two weeks away from the event announcement, maybe three weeks

00:46:45   away from the event at this point.

00:46:47   Like we're mid to late August now.

00:46:51   I can't imagine that we'll get to a month from now without seeing what this phone looks

00:46:56   like in the flesh.

00:46:57   Yeah, I mean even the events the week of the 11th and 12th, you know, somewhere in there,

00:47:03   we're three or four weeks away.

00:47:04   And so it's all coming quick.

00:47:07   I actually kind of realized that just yesterday, I was like, I want to win the, I was kind

00:47:11   of thinking ahead of through September, I was like, oh yeah, the funny events right

00:47:14   around the corner.

00:47:15   Sneaks up every year.

00:47:16   Yes, most certainly does.

00:47:17   All right, should we take a final break?

00:47:19   Let's do it.

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00:50:13   All right, what else do we have on the docket today,

00:50:14   Mr. Stephen Hackett?

00:50:15   - So many things.

00:50:17   So let's talk about the Canary.

00:50:21   - Okay.

00:50:21   - So this is a home security device.

00:50:23   You and I both have one.

00:50:25   It's got a camera, it's got a microphone,

00:50:27   it can send you notifications.

00:50:29   It has an alarm built into it, which we both like, so--

00:50:32   - And tested.

00:50:32   - Yeah, we tested it in the studio

00:50:34   'cause you never heard it. - Nope.

00:50:35   - And so we opened the door to the studio

00:50:36   and backed way far away and turned it on.

00:50:39   - It's incredibly loud. - Very loud.

00:50:41   - It's good to know, it's good to know.

00:50:42   Yeah, so if you're at home or if you're away

00:50:47   and a Federico Vittucci breaks into your house,

00:50:48   you can blast him with the alarm.

00:50:50   He'll know what's up.

00:50:51   So they had a blog post up earlier this week

00:50:54   introducing kind of three new features

00:50:56   we wanted to talk about.

00:50:57   Canary Talk, desktop streaming,

00:50:59   and a new sort of reduced latency

00:51:03   to deliver real-time video.

00:51:05   It's all good stuff.

00:51:08   The latency, I think, is the one I'm most excited about

00:51:10   because their notifications have been noticeably slower

00:51:13   than what the Nest Cam can do.

00:51:15   And they seem to have really caught up.

00:51:17   It seems nearly instantaneous that if I walk

00:51:20   in front of the camera without disarming it,

00:51:22   I get to push notification on my devices, which is great.

00:51:25   The desktop streaming, again, desktop streaming.

00:51:28   Desktop screaming, Myke.

00:51:29   - Oh no. - Desktop screaming.

00:51:31   (yells)

00:51:32   That's a different thing.

00:51:35   Desktop streaming lets you view the camera on the web.

00:51:40   So before you were stuck with their iOS device.

00:51:42   Again, this catches them up with Nest,

00:51:44   which again is what I'm most familiar with.

00:51:47   But you can log in and do that.

00:51:48   That is only accessible if you are part of their membership,

00:51:53   their subscription, which--

00:51:54   - I think that's fine.

00:51:55   - Yeah, I think it's fine too.

00:51:56   It incentivizes that.

00:51:57   And then there's Canary Talk,

00:52:00   which I think you wanted to talk through.

00:52:02   - Yeah, so I was excited to see this

00:52:04   because it enables you to talk through the camera, right?

00:52:08   so you would be able to talk to somebody at home,

00:52:11   which you can do for intruders, which is good,

00:52:13   but also family members, pets, that kind of stuff.

00:52:17   And I think you and Rem were talking about this

00:52:18   on query recently, and she upset her dogs

00:52:21   quite significantly.

00:52:22   - Yeah, she talked to them and they freaked out.

00:52:24   - Yeah, so don't necessarily think that that's gonna work

00:52:27   for your animal, maybe you wanna try that out

00:52:29   a little bit beforehand.

00:52:30   But I'm really pleased that this is a feature

00:52:34   that now exists because it's kind of,

00:52:37   All of these things for me are further validating my purchase, which is nice.

00:52:40   It's nice when you make a purchase and then later on the company adds more and more features

00:52:46   to the product and/or service, which just further gives you an extra value for money.

00:52:51   And that's what I feel like I've gotten here.

00:52:53   And just before the show today, Adina was at home whilst I'm here and I was talking

00:52:59   through the canary at her and she was confirming that it was coming through and with the messages

00:53:03   that she was sending me, it seemed like it was pretty real time.

00:53:06   So I can hear her through the microphone that it has and she can hear me through the speaker

00:53:12   now.

00:53:13   And I think that is so cool to have this new feature added to hardware that I haven't had

00:53:18   to change in any way.

00:53:19   There wasn't even a firmware update that I'm aware of, like there was nothing I had to

00:53:22   perform.

00:53:23   I updated the app in Memphis and could talk through my Canary in London.

00:53:27   It was really, really impressive.

00:53:29   And I'm super, super excited and super pumped about this because I love this product.

00:53:34   And you know, if you've been listening to me over the last few weeks, I kind of been

00:53:37   umming and ahhing about the nest because of some of the features that it has.

00:53:41   But now I feel like it's basically on par again.

00:53:44   Like, so I'm thrilled.

00:53:46   I'm really, really excited about this.

00:53:48   Yeah.

00:53:49   And I think that that idea that these products should improve over time, like we were talking

00:53:53   about it, it makes a lot of sense with something like a home security device that you're going

00:53:57   to have for years and years.

00:53:58   But clearly the hardware was capable of this when they designed it and they've been working

00:54:02   towards it in software.

00:54:03   And that's exciting too that companies have forethought and that sort of thing.

00:54:06   Yeah, I guess the speaker for the siren, right, like the alarm is what has enabled them to

00:54:11   do it.

00:54:12   Maybe.

00:54:13   It's really impressive.

00:54:14   I'm very pleased about it.

00:54:15   So, yeah, good.

00:54:16   Yeah, so I think a lot of these features have been enabled by the fact that there is a membership

00:54:20   scheme, right?

00:54:21   So there are people paying Canary every month, which brings us on to…

00:54:26   Our next topic.

00:54:27   Ulysses.

00:54:28   Ulysses.

00:54:29   Ulysses has switched to a subscription model.

00:54:31   Can you tell me about this?

00:54:32   Sure, so Ulysses is a writing app for Mac and iOS.

00:54:37   It was pretty pricey before.

00:54:38   I think the Mac app was like 40 bucks.

00:54:40   The iOS app was maybe 10 or 15 or 20 bucks.

00:54:43   It's high in stuff if you do a lot of writing.

00:54:46   I know a lot of people write in Ulysses exclusively,

00:54:51   including, or at the very least a lot,

00:54:54   including our friend Federico.

00:54:55   - Yep, he does.

00:54:57   - His review has been written of iOS 11 in Ulysses.

00:55:01   What they announced is that the apps are now free,

00:55:04   they have come with a 14 day free trial,

00:55:07   and at the end of those 14 days you can subscribe.

00:55:10   A single subscription gets you both the Mac and iOS versions,

00:55:14   which is really nice that you can just pay once and have

00:55:17   access to it on all of your devices.

00:55:20   If you're a student, they have student pricing for like $12

00:55:23   every six months.

00:55:24   It's kind of a funny way of saying that.

00:55:26   But reduced for students, which I think is nice.

00:55:29   And if you're an existing customer,

00:55:31   you get 18 months worth of usage for free,

00:55:34   and then you get a lifetime discount on your subscription.

00:55:37   It's five bucks a month or 40 bucks a year.

00:55:40   - I don't think that every customer

00:55:41   gets an 18 month free period.

00:55:43   - I don't know.

00:55:45   They have like three blog posts about this.

00:55:47   Their marketing is a little confusing.

00:55:48   But at some point if you bought it

00:55:50   in the most recent period of time.

00:55:51   - Yeah, there is like a, I think there is a bracket

00:55:56   in which you had to abort the application

00:55:58   benefit from the free period. Like I don't, I think that it's not for all existing customers, like

00:56:04   there is an existing customer period of time. Do you know what, I can actually tell you this maybe

00:56:10   by the fact that I have downloaded the app. I agree with you that it has been pretty confusing,

00:56:14   but these things tend to be, right? Like I don't think I've ever seen one of these things go

00:56:18   completely seamlessly. Yeah, like day one did this a couple months ago and it was confusing. I mean,

00:56:22   it's a hard thing to do to change business model like midway through, but their blog posts,

00:56:28   or one of the blog posts, talks a lot about the reasons they're doing this. And it's a lot of stuff

00:56:34   you'd expect to hear that ongoing development costs money. And to do that, there are big cons

00:56:42   to just having paid upgrades, or just having one app you build on forever, and just hope new people

00:56:47   show up. And so they said that they're okay at this point, but they're looking towards the future.

00:56:52   and that this is why they're doing this.

00:56:54   I don't, I do pay for several subscriptions at this point.

00:56:59   Ulysses is not an app I used before.

00:57:03   - Yep.

00:57:03   - So I'm not really affected by this,

00:57:06   but if you look on Twitter, there's always people saying,

00:57:09   well, I wouldn't look at an app that had a subscription,

00:57:12   but I think ultimately, if you want these things

00:57:15   to stick around, the ones that you use,

00:57:17   you're gonna end up paying for.

00:57:19   So I don't like the way that they're expressing this,

00:57:22   but I can see how you got confused.

00:57:25   You can get a free use period of up to 18 months, right?

00:57:29   Depending on what you bought.

00:57:31   So if you bought, as they call,

00:57:34   recent purchases of the Mac app

00:57:36   will unlock 12 months of free use.

00:57:38   Recent purchases of the iOS app

00:57:40   unlock six months of free use.

00:57:42   So you can get up to 18 months.

00:57:44   But from everything that I've found,

00:57:45   it doesn't seem very clear,

00:57:47   like in the blog post, like let's say in the last couple

00:57:50   of months or so you bought the application.

00:57:53   So what it does when you start doing your Ulysses

00:57:55   is checking something and I assume it's checking

00:57:57   those receipts, you know, you get like the little

00:57:59   purchase receipts that apps can check.

00:58:01   I think it's checking those 'cause then it tells you

00:58:03   kind of what you qualify for and I have to pay full price

00:58:06   probably 'cause I bought it like eight months ago,

00:58:07   eight, nine months ago, something like that.

00:58:10   Only on iOS, I don't have Ulysses on the Mac.

00:58:13   So, you know, this is one of the things that's like,

00:58:16   and I think it's good to criticize when it's unclear.

00:58:21   So if I am a customer, which I am, coming to this,

00:58:24   I'm not 100% sure what I'm supposed to be getting, right?

00:58:28   It's like I don't think that their marketing

00:58:31   is super clear about this,

00:58:32   probably because it is an incredibly difficult thing

00:58:36   to convey.

00:58:37   Now, people are upset about this, as you can understand,

00:58:42   because Ulysses was an expensive app to begin with.

00:58:45   - Yes.

00:58:46   So I think I paid like $20 or however much it was,

00:58:51   something like that, to get the application.

00:58:53   And that's a higher priced application than most, right?

00:58:59   - Yeah.

00:59:00   - And, but at least my expectation was

00:59:02   if I was paying that amount of money,

00:59:04   then I was probably good for a while.

00:59:06   - Right.

00:59:07   - Right, and I think that might be a thing in people's minds

00:59:08   is like, if this isn't a $3 app,

00:59:10   like this might be all I'm ever gonna pay it.

00:59:13   So I think that's why like,

00:59:14   there seems to have been quite a bit of backlash,

00:59:16   especially in the user reviews about this.

00:59:18   But this is the type of application

00:59:22   that definitely should be a subscription application,

00:59:24   I think.

00:59:26   - Because it's something, if you use this,

00:59:27   you rely on it day in and day out.

00:59:29   - And it's super professional, and it's super niche,

00:59:32   and it has a bunch of incredibly powerful features

00:59:35   that most people don't need.

00:59:37   Like, it really is an application

00:59:39   for people that write professionally.

00:59:41   That's who should own Ulysses.

00:59:44   And my belief is that if you make an application like that,

00:59:47   then you should have a subscription

00:59:48   because it makes sense.

00:59:50   And it enables you to continue

00:59:51   to push the application forward.

00:59:53   What makes it trickier is when the app

00:59:54   was already a higher price than most applications.

00:59:58   Now again, was Ulysses worth however much I paid for it?

01:00:01   Of course it was, it's a great application.

01:00:03   I've only used it a few times,

01:00:05   but whenever I use it, it's great.

01:00:06   Like I use it for specific tasks,

01:00:08   like when I've had scripts for YouTube videos,

01:00:10   or when I've written long blog posts and stuff like that,

01:00:12   like I use that, but it becomes tricky for people when they feel like that they've paid

01:00:22   quite a lot of money and then the rug gets poured from under them.

01:00:27   Like I understand why people feel that way, right?

01:00:30   Yeah, and I think that's going to be the case whenever you do this as a developer, that

01:00:36   going into it you just need to know that there's going to be this sort of response and regardless

01:00:42   of the time that you do it regardless of if you just had an update or it's been years

01:00:47   since you've had an update or if you were expensive or you were cheap, people are going

01:00:50   to respond negatively to this at first.

01:00:53   And I think if you're a developer and once you kind of swallow that pill it makes it

01:00:56   easier to move forward.

01:00:57   And I think as long as you're clear about your reasons and users see that as they start

01:01:03   paying for it features are rolling out and their money is going towards something, then

01:01:07   I think people, your users that really care about your app,

01:01:12   they'll settle down.

01:01:13   - Yeah, and look, this is the thing, right?

01:01:15   Like, I believe that this is something that they should do,

01:01:19   because if this is what their business requires to continue,

01:01:23   then yeah, do it, right?

01:01:25   Like, I feel like this is something that they should do,

01:01:28   and then people can make their decisions, right?

01:01:30   Like, I haven't purchased this yet

01:01:32   because I don't use Ulysses that often,

01:01:35   but when I come to a next reason

01:01:38   for me to use this application,

01:01:40   then maybe I'll think about it then.

01:01:41   Or I'll just keep the app that I currently have.

01:01:43   - Sure. - Right, like it still works.

01:01:44   I don't know how long it's gonna work for,

01:01:46   but it still works, right?

01:01:47   'Cause this is something I did like about this,

01:01:49   is set up a new app, right?

01:01:50   So like people that have the app can keep the app.

01:01:52   - Yeah. - And it will work

01:01:54   for as long as it works.

01:01:55   But when it comes to the time

01:01:57   where I'm going to be writing something again,

01:01:59   I'll make the decision as to whether I want to

01:02:02   buy this application.

01:02:03   Like I don't necessarily feel that people should just pay

01:02:08   for things because they're available.

01:02:11   - Sure.

01:02:12   - Like don't pay just to support,

01:02:14   pay to support and get something.

01:02:16   - Yeah.

01:02:17   - And if what you're getting is the application

01:02:19   or relay of bonus content,

01:02:21   then you're getting something in return, right?

01:02:23   - Right.

01:02:24   - Like that's why, I mean, so for us,

01:02:25   when it came to doing our membership,

01:02:28   providing things and then as we have done over time,

01:02:31   continuing to provide more makes sense.

01:02:35   I think that there should be some kind of exchange.

01:02:38   If you're giving somebody money

01:02:39   and when you're used to getting something free

01:02:41   or used to getting something for an existing relationship,

01:02:44   if you're changing that relationship,

01:02:45   you should get something back.

01:02:46   So when I come to make the decision

01:02:48   as to whether I want to buy this application

01:02:51   to get the subscription,

01:02:52   then I'll just make the decision of whether I want to do it.

01:02:54   And I saw Federico and a bunch of people being like,

01:02:57   "This is a no-brainer for me.

01:02:58   "Of course I'm gonna sign up."

01:03:00   Well, yeah, you use the app every day.

01:03:01   it makes perfect sense for you to do that, right?

01:03:03   Like if you use it every single day,

01:03:05   100% you should be paying.

01:03:07   If you use it very frequently, yeah, you probably should.

01:03:10   If you barely ever use it, then think about that

01:03:12   before you sign up for a monthly subscription.

01:03:14   This is like the purchasing decisions that people,

01:03:17   we knew that people would have to start making

01:03:19   when we first heard about this.

01:03:21   Like the idea of just grabbing an app for fun

01:03:24   and seeing if it works for you

01:03:26   comes to an end of stuff like this.

01:03:27   But they do have stuff like a free trial,

01:03:29   which I think is great, so you can go in and try it out.

01:03:31   there's more opportunity to play with this app now than before because the

01:03:36   the price was a bar for casual checking out. And I bet this is one of the

01:03:41   reasons that they did that like that they believe their application is worth

01:03:44   good money which it is it's fantastic so that but they knew that people were

01:03:49   never trying it they were never getting the experience because the application

01:03:54   was I'm just saying $20 I've tried looking and it's really difficult to

01:03:58   find this information out now because if you Google Ulysses Price all you get is the new

01:04:02   information. But so like if you wanted to give it a go, there was a high barrier of

01:04:09   entry compared to what you're used to paying on the App Store, right? I mean all of this

01:04:13   is relative, okay I have to say that, like all of this is relative to the environment

01:04:16   that the applications run in and blah blah blah blah blah. So yeah it probably is a good

01:04:20   thing for them now because more customers can try it out because there is a 14 day free

01:04:25   trial and that's I bet that that's going to be a really good thing for them they

01:04:28   just need to get through this right now and I don't think any developer you put

01:04:32   this great like I don't think any developer can do this in 2017 and not

01:04:36   expect this reaction business model changes upset people because people

01:04:40   don't like change and they don't want to see like this application is now gonna

01:04:45   cost me more money than ever like I feel like I'm being ripped off like that's

01:04:48   how people feel that's how people react to this stuff so I feel like anybody

01:04:51   that does this has to expect it, right?

01:04:56   - Yeah, and I think if an app you use

01:05:01   goes through one of these transitions,

01:05:04   it's an opportunity to think if it's really critical or not.

01:05:08   And a lot of developers, or at least the reputable ones,

01:05:11   are doing what Ulysses did and what day one did

01:05:15   of hey, the version that you have now will still work

01:05:18   for the foreseeable future,

01:05:20   but if you want to move forward with us,

01:05:22   you need to get on this other train.

01:05:23   And that gives people ample opportunity

01:05:25   to really evaluate if it's worth it for them.

01:05:29   And if it's not, that's fine,

01:05:30   and if it is, that's fine too.

01:05:31   And I would imagine, without having done any math,

01:05:34   that if even a subset of their users do this,

01:05:39   and they leave a bunch behind,

01:05:40   then they'll still be okay financially.

01:05:42   And that's what this is all about,

01:05:43   making an app sustainable over the long term.

01:05:45   - Yeah, there is a problem in regards to reviews

01:05:48   with the way that the free trial stuff works now is like,

01:05:51   say a developer had a $5 app

01:05:54   and then version two was another $5, right?

01:05:56   People couldn't leave one star reviews on the new app

01:06:00   unless they bought it, but now you could download the app,

01:06:04   get the free trial and leave a one star review

01:06:05   on the new app, right?

01:06:07   That can be a problem for people.

01:06:08   'Cause I mean, their reviews are in a dumpster right now.

01:06:13   Like it's not good, right?

01:06:14   Because people were protesting, people are upset, right?

01:06:16   people want to say like we don't think you should be doing this you're ripping

01:06:20   us off that kind of thing so that that is a problem now with the fact that you

01:06:24   can grab these these applications for free for 14 days that you can go ahead

01:06:28   and leave a review I mean that could be something for Apple to think about like

01:06:31   should you be able to leave a review during the trial period yeah that would

01:06:35   be really interesting to see if that's something they address because more

01:06:40   developers are moving to this and Apple's been so responsive because the

01:06:44   trial period is a real thing that exists. This isn't just something people are messing

01:06:47   around with anymore. The 14 day free trial thing can lock you out. That's it. That's

01:06:53   why this low tier of use exists. That's why this 14 day thing exists so you can do this.

01:07:01   So it would be nice if Apple maybe were like, "Hey, you just can't leave reviews during

01:07:04   this period of time." That would be kind of cool.

01:07:07   Sure, if you develop one of these apps, that's exactly what you want.

01:07:10   There probably is. So it's something to think about. I mean, but this is just, these are

01:07:14   the things that come out as the business models continue to move. And as we stand here in

01:07:20   August 2017, I still see way less of my applications on a subscription model than I expected. I

01:07:26   really thought it was going to be more than this. And I think a lot of developers are

01:07:30   hesitant because of reactions, like what Ulysses are getting.

01:07:33   Yeah, I think so.

01:07:35   All right. I think that rounds out this week's episode. If you want to find our show notes

01:07:39   this week go to relay.fm/connected/155 I recommend that you do go there because the

01:07:44   website is new and fancy and beautiful and you can go and take a look at it and peruse

01:07:48   over the cornucopia of attractive pixels.

01:07:53   I really was curious how you were going to end that sentence.

01:07:56   Yeah I'm still not sure if I know how it's going to end. Thanks to Blue Apron Squarespace

01:08:01   and Bombfell for supporting this week's show. Thanks to Mr. Steven Hackett for allowing

01:08:05   me to join him in his studio to record today and for giving me equipment and a glass of

01:08:11   water.

01:08:12   You don't want to do it outside in the rain. Inside is better.

01:08:14   Memphis weather is like, you've lied to me. The weather's so bad. It's been pouring for

01:08:20   three days.

01:08:21   Well, don't come in August.

01:08:22   And it's raining warm and humid.

01:08:23   Come in April and May, it's nice.

01:08:25   This is unacceptable. This is unacceptable. Steven's online at five12pixels.net and he

01:08:31   is @ismh on Twitter. I am @imike, our wandering co-host, Mr Federico Vatici is at maxstories.net

01:08:40   and he is @Vatici on Twitter, V-I-T-I-C-C-I. I think we're all back together next week.

01:08:45   I think so. But then I'm gone for a week the week after that.

01:08:48   Yes. Summertime everybody. How does it work? It doesn't. Thanks so much for listening.

01:08:53   We'll be back next time. Until then, please sign up for our membership. We love you if

01:08:56   you already have related.fm/membership. Give us money and you get cool stuff. Goodbye.