0:00:00[Music]
0:00:06From WEA FM, this is Connected, episode 141.
0:00:10Today's show is brought to you so kindly by Encapsula and Away.
0:00:14My name is Myke Hurley and I am so happy to say that the band is back together.
0:00:19We have the frontman, Mr Federico Vitelli.
0:00:22Hey Myke.
0:00:22Hi Federico.
0:00:23And producer/songwriter/drummer, Stephen Acker.
0:00:28I've never been a drummer, but I did play bass in high school and college.
0:00:31I don't see you as a drummer.
0:00:33So close.
0:00:34No, bassist.
0:00:35Super cool.
0:00:36I went with, like, I don't know, I didn't want to say he was a guitarist, I don't know
0:00:38why, so I just went with drummer.
0:00:41I was maybe angling towards, like, trumpet or something, but I just couldn't think of
0:00:44a funny enough instrument.
0:00:46I see Steven Moore as a producer/impresario of sorts, you know?
0:00:53Sounds about right.
0:00:54Like, frontman, hype man.
0:00:56So we have big news, big, big news to start the show.
0:01:03The first link in the show notes, if you go to your app right now, go to the webpage relay.fm/connected/141,
0:01:12there is a link to an Eventbrite page where we have tickets up to the public now for our
0:01:17Chicago show on Sunday, October 15th.
0:01:20This is the show we're doing in conjunction with the Release Notes Conference.
0:01:24Most of the tickets went to release notes attendees, but there are a handful left available
0:01:28to the public.
0:01:29So if you want one and you're still listening to me, then you need to stop and click the
0:01:33link because they're probably already gone.
0:01:35Yeah, it's too late.
0:01:37If you wait to the end of that sentence, it's too late.
0:01:39Probably.
0:01:40Sorry.
0:01:41We hope you got a ticket though.
0:01:42We hope you stopped halfway through.
0:01:44We do.
0:01:45There's a wait list, as there always is.
0:01:48And we're excited to see you all in Chicago.
0:01:50So all three of us will be on stage doing a connected.
0:01:53We can do follow up in real life in person.
0:01:57That episode will be released that week as the normal show.
0:02:00So if you aren't there, it's not like special content.
0:02:02It's like locked away for those audience members.
0:02:05It is our normal episode that week.
0:02:09So we're super excited to be doing it with release notes.
0:02:11Thank you again to those guys for helping make it possible.
0:02:14They've really done all the hard work for this.
0:02:16We're just basically just showing up and plugging in some microphones.
0:02:18So thanks to release notes and yeah, we'll see you there.
0:02:22It's Windy City, right? The Windy City. There's a rumor going around that I'm gonna be eating
0:02:30deep dish pizza on stage, the Chicago one. I just wanted to say that it is not true,
0:02:36it's not happening, but maybe off stage we could arrange an Instagram story. Yeah. Because
0:02:42I want to try it. I want to try what I've heard of is like pizza casserole is what I've
0:02:47been told. It's kind of more like... So I want to try it because I've never tried it.
0:02:51So there will be a consumption of deep dish. It's either where we eat it or fall into it.
0:03:01I'm not sure which one it's gonna end up being. I guess you have to be there to find out. So
0:03:07hope you got a ticket. So yeah, so there'll be lots of fun stuff. We'll be at the conference.
0:03:12We're gonna be in Chicago for about a week together, so it'll be a lot of fun.
0:03:16making trouble. But it is time to move on to follow up and the first piece of
0:03:23follow-up I have many questions about mostly for Federico so to set the stage
0:03:28a little bit a couple weeks ago Apple announced that the affiliate program for
0:03:34apps so if you link to an app in a blog post or a tweet with a special link you
0:03:38would get seven percent of that sale coming out of Apple's thirty percent so
0:03:44it's not coming out of the developers pockets,
0:03:45coming out of Apple's-- as a thank you
0:03:47for linking to the App Store.
0:03:49And they had this big email.
0:03:51And I thought it was very clear, I think all of us
0:03:53thought it was very clear, that apps are getting cut to 2.5%,
0:03:57not 7%.
0:03:58And there was lots of hand-wringing, a lot of sites,
0:04:01including Mac stories and like 512 pixels and like
0:04:04the sweet setup that I do editing for.
0:04:06A bunch of projects that you as a listener know and love
0:04:09depend on this income.
0:04:10And it was going to be slashed.
0:04:12And it turns out that Apple clarified in like air quotes,
0:04:17I think they walked it back,
0:04:19but Federico, what did they say?
0:04:21- So I was doing some research on the affiliate program
0:04:25a couple of nights ago,
0:04:26and just to make sure I went to the Apple affiliate website,
0:04:30and they do have a blog, which is like a news page,
0:04:34it doesn't have an RSS feed,
0:04:37and it's just one of those unknown blogs
0:04:40that you really gotta go look for.
0:04:42And there was an update from May 5, so that would be a Friday,
0:04:47saying commission update is very short update.
0:04:52And it was literally saying, we just
0:04:55want to clarify some of the previous changes
0:04:57that we communicated over email on the commissions
0:05:00for the affiliate program.
0:05:01And we wanted to clarify that only the commission
0:05:06on in-app purchases, it's going to drop to 2.5%. All other commissions, including apps
0:05:13and books and TV shows, it's going to stay, it's going to remain at 7%. And Apple used
0:05:21the term "clarify", but it wasn't really clarified, because if you compare the original announcement
0:05:25from the email and the updated announcement, you can clearly see how the, what Apple refers
0:05:31to app content, which would be paid iOS apps, was not in the first email when they were
0:05:37mentioning the 7%, but it was in the commission update on the blog. So what Apple did was
0:05:42they didn't send an email to the members of the affiliate program, they posted on this
0:05:48blog that no one follows on May 5, and I noticed on two days later, so no other blog had noticed
0:05:55this update from Apple, they didn't send an email, they didn't send any update, I just
0:06:00went there and realized, oh, they just reverted the change.
0:06:04They're backtracking on the commissions for paid iOS apps.
0:06:08So basically, now paid apps, paid iOS apps and Mac apps
0:06:13are going to stay at 7%.
0:06:15The commission paid up to the members of the affiliate
0:06:18program.
0:06:18Only in-app purchases are going to go to 2.5%.
0:06:23And yes, Apple did say we're clarifying.
0:06:26But to me, that's basically backtracking
0:06:29on a previous decision.
0:06:30I don't know why it happened.
0:06:31I suppose they heard the feedback
0:06:34from a lot of members of the program,
0:06:36or maybe it was just a mistake.
0:06:38I mean, must be a very odd circumstance to get that wrong,
0:06:43which makes me believe it wasn't a mistake,
0:06:48it was a decision.
0:06:49Then they heard the outcry from members of the program
0:06:52and some websites and podcasts,
0:06:54and they decided, well, it's not worth it.
0:06:56Maybe it's a bad PR move, maybe it's bad for the ecosystem.
0:06:59I don't know, but they're gonna keep it at 7%.
0:07:02- What I don't understand is why they did this,
0:07:06changed their minds, or clarified an incorrect statement
0:07:09or whatever it was, but they didn't tell anyone.
0:07:12They just left it on that blog that nobody reads.
0:07:17- Nobody reads, and I just stumbled upon it
0:07:20accidentally almost, because I just wanted
0:07:23to double check everything on the Apple affiliate website,
0:07:27and I saw this link, go to the news page.
0:07:29was like, "Okay, let's go to the news page." And I saw this update from Friday. So, you
0:07:33know, between posting on a Friday, I guess in the afternoon, and without sending an email,
0:07:39and this one paragraph notice, it's kind of funny. And it makes me wonder if this move
0:07:47of cutting the commissions was really done to prevent, you know, paying out large amounts
0:07:53of money to, as I speculated two weeks ago, to maybe big players like Facebook or Google
0:08:00or Twitter, you know, big social networks that use their affiliate codes to earn commissions
0:08:06on apps that are displayed on those services as native app install ads. And because, you
0:08:13know, the majority of app install ads that you see on Facebook, for example, if Facebook
0:08:17does use the affiliate program, but the majority of those apps are freemium games and freemium
0:08:22apps. So free downloads that have in-app purchases for gems or, you know, those types of freemium
0:08:28games. Makes me wonder if maybe the move was supposed to cut that money to players like
0:08:34Facebook and Google and Bing, I don't know. But why can't they just like find a way to
0:08:39stop people making affiliate money from their own applications? Right, there should be a sort of
0:08:44tiers in the program, you know, if you make over, I don't know, half a million dollars a year,
0:08:50probably you should get a smaller piece of the pie of the affiliate commission.
0:08:54That's what I would do. I would, you know, for indie websites I would keep one type of commissions,
0:08:58but for other, you know, social networks and people who really make a lot of money,
0:09:03the commission should be lower. And that's what makes the most sense to me. Instead they're
0:09:08going to slash the in-app purchase for everyone, which is not necessarily great news for indie
0:09:12websites, and, you know, because a lot of apps these days tend to be free with subscriptions or
0:09:17in-app purchases, but still from my perspective it's still good news to have 7% of unpaid apps,
0:09:23because those are the apps that I tend to prefer, the productivity apps that I tend to write about,
0:09:28but it's definitely an interesting move and I don't understand why the change happened
0:09:32in the first place and why it was miscommunicated or mismanaged. I have no idea.
0:09:37-Surprise! Workflows back. -Yeah.
0:09:44Can you really be back if you never went away?
0:09:46Well, you know, there were many reports that it was dead.
0:09:48I think our friends at ATP began this situation.
0:09:52Well, I mean, that came from a comment from some, from like Workflow support team.
0:09:58So I think it's probably premature to call this back from the dead.
0:10:01Well, I mean, okay, so whatever came from the support team, what was reported was no more updates of any kind coming to Workflow.
0:10:09Like that was the tone and everyone was like that's it. It's done
0:10:12They wrapped it up and they moved away and that's not the case right like it
0:10:16What we have is there has been an update the update restores some functionality and has actually made some feature
0:10:24enhancements as well like I was expecting maybe this would just be
0:10:27Restoring for the companies that have said yes, you can use our stuff again, which includes Chrome
0:10:33Which I'm so happy about Google Chrome actions are back and pocket have been added
0:10:37But it's also added some Apple music functions, but also made some improvements like one of them
0:10:44Which is something that I was really hoping for which I think we spoke about that
0:10:47I think we spoke about the episode
0:10:49When we were just talking about workflow before it got sold and I was talking about how dictionaries just have a random order
0:10:56Right, which is apparently a thing
0:10:57But now when they're kind of chained to lists when they're supposed to be presented as a list
0:11:03They now fix the order in place, which I think is great
0:11:07Yeah, that I guess that workflow was able to basically rewrite their own JSON and dictionary support
0:11:13So to make sure that items preserve their order
0:11:16I feel like they were just saying to me like we're so sorry about the stress we've caused you so here you go
0:11:22Here's your feature. I think I think that's what happened. Yeah, that's definitely how it went down
0:11:27They put it on a whiteboard right like make my happy again and then
0:11:30Yeah fix for Myke. Yeah
0:11:34Sure. I mean the big idea here is that
0:11:37these are no major features like it's not
0:11:41the type of update that introduces magic variables or web APIs. It's an update with some new features
0:11:48but they're not groundbreaking
0:11:50you know
0:11:52major functionalities added to workflow. It's still good to see that Apple is investing in the app in you know with bug fixes
0:11:59virus improvements, minor additions maybe you could say with Apple Music you can now manage your playback queue and
0:12:05restoring some of the actions that got pulled with the acquisition. I don't know what to think
0:12:11I want to be optimistic because this means there's still people working on it
0:12:14There's still people listening and you know monitoring the problems with the app and fixing those
0:12:19I don't know if it means well we can prepare for that kind of
0:12:23aggressive release schedule that Workflow used to have when it was an independent app or somewhere in the middle of
0:12:29I don't want to say the workflow is dead, and I also don't want to say that it's in a limbo.
0:12:34It's somewhere in between those two states.
0:12:38It's not gonna have a redesign, I believe. It's not gonna have new major additions.
0:12:44But it will probably receive bug fixes, improvements, and these minor changes.
0:12:49They're still welcome, and I want to be optimistic, but I don't know how many of these will get.
0:12:56In the meantime, I just wanted to say how I'm still using workflow
0:13:01I'm still creating workflows because the app functions as always and now it's even better because they fix a bunch of things
0:13:07so it's not like
0:13:10Because I saw some people that are abandoning workflow out of principle
0:13:13Even if it's still working great and even if it if it got an update yesterday
0:13:17there's still people are gonna say well, I'm not spending any more time in this app because it's dead and
0:13:21I think that's you know, everyone is free to do whatever they want
0:13:26But I think that's, you know, counterintuitive.
0:13:28I mean, if the app works and if we can save you time, why not just keep using it?
0:13:32But, you know, some people, they took very.
0:13:37Precise and strong stance.
0:13:41I think I kind of feel the way that you do like, I don't expect to ever
0:13:45see something like a magic variables added to this application, right?
0:13:49Like this application as we have it right now.
0:13:52but I am hopeful and I have faith that we will see things like this.
0:13:58You know, if there's a bug that needs to be fixed, it will be fixed. If there's a slight improvement
0:14:03that can be made, they'll make it, whilst the workflow team, I'm sure, are working on some
0:14:07cool stuff inside of Apple. But really, honestly, for the time being, that's all I want. Like,
0:14:12I just want to know that the app is receiving some support until something comes along to replace it,
0:14:18Right? That's kind of for me in the situation that we're in, the best case scenario.
0:14:24Yeah. And it's definitely, you know, if Workflow gets integrated with iOS or if it gets a major 2.0 update,
0:14:30I believe there's a very strong possibility that it's not going to be this year.
0:14:34It's not going to be, you know, in three weeks at WWDC we're going to see a whole new Workflow.
0:14:38I don't think that's the case. I don't think we'll see Workflow as an iOS feature this year.
0:14:42But, you know, maybe next year, maybe with a point update to iOS 11, whenever that happens,
0:14:49that could be, but I wouldn't expect it in three weeks.
0:14:52It is, yeah, it does show how recent it was, right?
0:14:55Like it was only a couple of months ago and WWDC's in three weeks.
0:14:59I agree, I just can't imagine we see anything that's like, "Oh, that's what the workflow
0:15:03team went to do."
0:15:04Like it just doesn't feel like it would be now for me.
0:15:07Like it could be next WWDC, it could be somewhere in between, but I don't think we're going
0:15:12to see it in June.
0:15:14Alright, should we take a break?
0:15:18Yeah.
0:15:19Today's show is brought to you by Encapsula, the multifunction content delivery network
0:15:23that boosts the performance of your website, protects it from denial of service attacks
0:15:27and secures it from the bad guys.
0:15:28Those bad guys.
0:15:29Whilst ensuring high availability.
0:15:33Let me tell you what those bad guys do.
0:15:34Encapsular's bad guys attack websites, and this happens every day. Sites of all sizes
0:15:39can be attacked. Criminals will use giant botnets to scrape website content, try to
0:15:44break into databases, and then bring down sites for denial of service attacks. Encapsular's
0:15:49network holds 3 terabits per second of on-demand scrubbing capacity, and can process 30 billion
0:15:55attacks per second. This is why Encapsular's network has successfully defended some of
0:15:59the largest website attacks on record. You will be able to see anything as it happens
0:16:04on the Encapsular dashboard to help you adjust your security policies on the fly.
0:16:09And if something bad does happen, their powerful CDN ensures that your content is delivered
0:16:13to your customers fast.
0:16:15People will never even know that something bad was happening.
0:16:18They would just be going to your website as normal.
0:16:20As a listener of this show, you can get one whole month's service for free.
0:16:24All you need to do is go to Encapsular.com/connected.
0:16:31You'll find out more here about Encapsular's service and claim your free month.
0:16:34Thank you so much to Encapsular for their support of this show and RelayFN.
0:16:38So in the last couple weeks Federico has been secretly launching a new Kickstarter project
0:16:44it seems.
0:16:45Oh god, no.
0:16:46There is a link in the show notes and I think the best way to sum this up is an iPhone case
0:16:51that can make Espresso free.
0:16:53Yeah that is the most efficient way of summing that up.
0:16:57Why would you have so little faith in me that you think this could be my project?
0:17:01But it is the intersection of the things that you love, right?
0:17:05It is the anti-federico, this thing here, making an espresso with your phone, with liquid
0:17:15coffee that comes out of a case on the back of your iPhone, that is like against all of
0:17:22my life principles.
0:17:23Let me rewind a little bit for people that don't know what we're talking about, which
0:17:26which is probably most of everybody. This Kickstarter project came across our views
0:17:32somehow. And it is, as we have been joking, the exact product is, it is an iPhone case
0:17:39that has the ability to dispense coffee. You put these capsules or something in the side,
0:17:46these card capsules in the side, it heats it up, and you pour coffee via the use of
0:17:52an application. I'm not sure how the app helps, but apparently it does. It's also for Samsung
0:17:56phones as well. I don't think it's just an iPhone case. And it will pour coffee out of
0:18:02the top of the case. That is what it does. So you will always be able to have hot coffee
0:18:08no matter where you are. You can just pour it out of the case that you have your phone
0:18:14in. It's a concerning idea.
0:18:20It is a terrible idea. I do appreciate the enterprising nature of the project. Also because
0:18:28it comes from a bunch of Italian folks, it's good to see Italians trying things.
0:18:32You should watch the video by the way, it's terrible and brilliant.
0:18:35The video is terrible. The video with a stranger approaching a lady on the street.
0:18:41Walking into a lamppost.
0:18:43espresso from a phone. It's both creepy and concerning from, I don't know, from many points
0:18:50of view and I don't even know what to say. There's so many, you know, Americans call them
0:18:59coffee shops, we call them bars in Italy. The bar in Italy, it's not when you go get it like booze
0:19:04at night, it's where you go eat a sandwich or grab an espresso. And literally in any Italian city,
0:19:10there's like a bar within 100 meters of each other, usually.
0:19:15I'm not sure what the American unit is for that, probably a million inches.
0:19:20Anyway, there's so little need for this kind of product.
0:19:26You have to buy a case and you have to carry the case on your phone
0:19:29at the risk of having boiling water in the back of your device.
0:19:33Putting up coffee from a capsule, which is liquid coffee, not even freshly
0:19:38grounded coffee. It's just… I don't even know. Why not just walk into a bar and
0:19:45ask for an actual espresso? It is worth noting at this point that yesterday,
0:19:52Kickstarter suspended this campaign. And basically what that means is, Kickstarter are very aware
0:19:58of the fact that this product will never exist. Right? Like, they may well believe they're
0:20:03going to do this, but it's extremely unlikely that people would be able to make this product
0:20:08and if they do, it actually doesn't really help anybody. They had a 75,000 euro goal,
0:20:13they got 90 backers with 4,000 euros raised and then Kickstarter came in and just threw down the
0:20:20ban hammer. But we still thought that it was ridiculous enough to mention on the show. I love
0:20:26everything about it. The video, the video is so funny in so many ways. My favorite part is when
0:20:31they're like in their office pointing at screens, right? Like, look at technology! And like they
0:20:38have these graphics come up on the screen and there's one of them where it's like oh it's a
0:20:42white text overlaid over the top of a white computer screen so you can't read it and i just
0:20:46love stuff like that it's like you tried so hard but like no but you just you couldn't get stuff
0:20:52like that right like you just fix that just don't do that uh it's brilliant like people are just
0:20:56like running their hands over things and like pointing at stuff it's it's fantastic it i'm not
0:21:02sure if this is supposed to be a piece of performance art yeah on the internet but the
0:21:07But the real news for me here is that 90 people across the world have lost their minds if
0:21:13they back this project. This is the takeaway from this Kickstarter. So, those 90 people
0:21:18pay attention where they might be.
0:21:21Those 90 people could all know the company, right? Like, that's a whole other thing.
0:21:26Also, they were so proud of their patent that they got, they put a scan of the certificate
0:21:31in the campaign.
0:21:33Yeah. I have a lot of questions about that piece of paper. It looks like it's a patent
0:21:42application done by a fourth grader in Microsoft Publisher. It's not a good look.
0:21:47This is patent for project.
0:21:50Is that what it says?
0:21:53It was like a logo of the Italian government. It's like the Republic of Italy grants this
0:21:58application pending status.
0:22:01Let me ask you Federico, I'm sure you've dealt with the Italian government. Does this look
0:22:05like a document the Italian government could have created?
0:22:08Let me take a look again. So the product, by the way, is called the Mo-case. I'm not
0:22:14sure what you mentioned. Well, I mean, the logo is kind of stretched, the Italian logo.
0:22:22I don't know, it might as well be, because these official documents tend to be terrible.
0:22:28Terrible? They never look good. They never look good. But I don't know, there's a number,
0:22:35there's an ID, so you know, there's an ID, you might as well be real.
0:22:39I'm searching for the number on what I think is the Italian government's patent search
0:22:43page, but it's on Italian. So I can't really tell.
0:22:49If only. If only we knew someone.
0:22:51If I-- I know. Well, he was talking. If I did it correctly, and who knows what this
0:22:58page actually says, not me, then it says zero results.
0:23:02Hold on a second. I'm looking at the page, and you can actually use the Samsung S7 Edge.
0:23:12Isn't that the phone that used to explode?
0:23:14No, that was the Note. This is the Edge.
0:23:16That makes your coffee really hot.
0:23:18I was already imagining a coffee explosion in the middle of the street. Some guy just
0:23:22walking and coffee explodes all over the place.
0:23:25It's pre-heating. Just pre-heating.
0:23:27Optimizations, yeah. Anyway, I mean, I guess there's people who might want this kind of
0:23:33coffee. So, look, I'm not judging. I'm just saying, "Come hang out with me for a day and
0:23:41I'll take you around a bunch of bars in Rome and we could have actual good coffee. And
0:23:46You can also go to the Apple Store and get an actual case.
0:23:49That seems like a better investment for your phone or the Samsung Store.
0:23:54I'm sure there's some of those.
0:23:55And an espresso machine, you know, if that's what you really want in your life.
0:23:59Are there any Huawei stores or LG stores?
0:24:02I don't think they have dedicated stores.
0:24:03I think Samsung might be the only one that does.
0:24:06Well, anyway, I don't know.
0:24:12It's just...
0:24:13It's beautiful is what it is.
0:24:15This is the one that's a human advertisement right here. But this is when it goes ever
0:24:19so slightly wrong. Have you seen the little cup that goes with
0:24:22the product? Yeah, yeah, the travel cup. Those things are
0:24:24great though. Those things are great, the little travel cups.
0:24:27iTunes connect app analytics. So this is not a new thing, right? Like this has existed
0:24:34before but they added some new functionality in that now you can actually see where your
0:24:40customers are coming from. So in the past when app analytics was announced, I think
0:24:44like two years ago. I think from my knowledge it basically just provided you information
0:24:49about how many people have come to your page and it gave you some breakdowns of how they
0:24:54got there from inside of the store, right? So like if they were searching for your app
0:24:59or something or coming from browsing. But now you get information like where those people
0:25:04are coming from so you can find it like the websites that they come from so you get links
0:25:08and maybe you can see if people come from whatever marketing campaigns and stuff you've
0:25:12been setting up. I assume that this is a very good thing for developers, right? Like any
0:25:16more information is better than no information.
0:25:19Right, yeah. I mean, it's a good change, especially because Apple has waited for so long to add
0:25:24this kind of options to the App Analytics, and I've already seen some reactions from
0:25:31developers on Twitter saying, "Well, I just realized that 80% of our customers come from
0:25:36search on the App Store, so now we're investing on search ads." And I almost wonder if Apple
0:25:41realized we should add search metrics and information to the iTunes Connect so developers
0:25:47are more incentivized to buy search ads because they realize that search is such a huge component
0:25:52of how customers discover their software. So it's sort of a self-reinforcing loop for
0:25:56Apple. We roll out analytics and developers realize that search is important, so now they
0:26:01buy more search ads.
0:26:03You know, just for general marketing it's better, right? So like if a developer buys
0:26:08a marketing spot on Mac stories or on 512 pixels, they're going to know if people are
0:26:12clicking those links and going to the store, where previously you'd either have to put
0:26:16your own page in the middle, which is not elegant enough, or you'd just be crossing
0:26:21your fingers and hoping and trying to do some kind of wizardry on statistics to work out
0:26:26if maybe there had been some kind of effect. But now you can actually trace that stuff
0:26:29back, which is useful to have if you're working in this kind of web business like this, where
0:26:34links are occurring. That data is available and now it's there for people to see. That's
0:26:41great.
0:26:42Yeah, yeah.
0:26:43Phil Schiller gave an interview to a website called Gadgets 360. Does anybody know what
0:26:50that is? Gadgets 360?
0:26:53It's a gadget mixed with an Xbox.
0:26:56It looks like it is a... I'm gonna...
0:27:00and I believe it's part of a larger network of sites in India.
0:27:05In India, right. Okay, cool. I wonder what country it's from.
0:27:07Oh, I just realized it's called NDTV, like India. NDTV.
0:27:13I don't know if...
0:27:15There it is.
0:27:16Okay, okay, cool. We're going to go with that.
0:27:18That's clever.
0:27:20And he spoke about two things that were kind of interesting. One is voice assistants and
0:27:26voice canisters and voice boxes like the Echo, the Google Home, that kind of stuff.
0:27:31I want to read you a couple of quotes that Shilla spoke about. He says, "There's many
0:27:36moments where a voice assistant is really beneficial, but that doesn't mean you'd never
0:27:40want a screen. So if the idea of not having a screen I don't think suits many situations."
0:27:45We're going to talk a little bit later on about the Amazon Echo Show. Shilla gave these
0:27:51reports before there were even any rumors of this product or strong rumors of this product.
0:27:57He also went on to say, "I think voice assistants are incredibly powerful. Their intelligence
0:28:00is going to grow. They're going to do more for us, but the role of the screen is going
0:28:04to remain very important to all of this."
0:28:06Phil Schiller really is doubling down on these things having screens. So my expectation,
0:28:13we were talking last week about rumors of a Apple voice assistant box, like a Siri in
0:28:19in a can popping up at some point,
0:28:22I think we can assume that this thing's
0:28:24gonna have a screen on it, right?
0:28:25- I mean, it sure seems like that's
0:28:29where they're headed with this.
0:28:32Anytime Apple talks about a market they're not in,
0:28:36it's important to pay attention to how they speak about it.
0:28:39So there was one of the more famous examples
0:28:42of Steve Jobs saying no one wants to watch a video
0:28:44on their iPod and then like six months later,
0:28:47there's an iPod with video.
0:28:49But in conjunction with that, they had the iTunes store with TV shows, and they introduced
0:28:54a whole ecosystem kind of all at once.
0:28:57Here, I can't help but think it's a similar thing where there's lots of rumors that they're
0:29:02working on this.
0:29:04Like we spoke about last week, these products need a display to fall back to when they can't
0:29:10tell you the information verbally.
0:29:14I think Apple's thinking about that as the whole thing, and they don't want to kick people
0:29:17an app. Whether or not we see this, like we spoke about last week, you know, in the next
0:29:23couple weeks or sometime in the next year, I would be really surprised after all of this
0:29:28if it does not have a screen as part of the product.
0:29:30I think it's also interesting that like when Shado's gone on record with these types of
0:29:34things before, he's talking about like the device you have with you, right? Like that's
0:29:39been the whole thing. And it seems like that they're kind of changing that tune a little
0:29:42bit now, right? That these things don't necessarily have to be in your pocket, which is definitely
0:29:47definitely the route that Apple has gone down before by kind of being like "oh your iPhone's
0:29:52the best digital voice assistant because it's always in your pocket" but now it's kind of
0:29:57just like "these things need screens" right and I think that's kind of interesting the
0:30:01way they're kind of like bundling it all up now to be like "the one in your pocket's really
0:30:05great" they're still saying that by saying they need screens but then also like thinking
0:30:08about what they could end up launching themselves there you go could have a screen.
0:30:13I wonder if adding a screen is also a way to entice people to buy this product, and
0:30:22if those people don't have an iPhone or don't have an iPad, with the main screen, with the
0:30:26main app, if they don't have the main Apple device, well, the speaker with the screen
0:30:31could be the only screen that they're interacting with.
0:30:34You know, if you want to sign into your iCloud account or if you want to manage Apple Music
0:30:38playlists, you don't have an iPhone but you really want the Apple speaker, now you can
0:30:42do all things, you know, configuration, setup, and you know, even confirming some actions,
0:30:48you can do them from the speaker, even if you don't have an iPhone or if you don't have
0:30:51an Apple Watch.
0:30:53Mm-hmm. Maybe this is why the iPad Mini is still for sale. They need to keep making the
0:30:57screen so they can bolt it to this thing.
0:31:00It could be, actually.
0:31:02That's not a wild thing to say. It really isn't. Like, that actually makes a lot of
0:31:07Weirdly, there was one other thing that I wanted to pick out of this article. Schiller
0:31:14gave a bunch of quotes about upgrade pricing in the App Store, so he was questioned about
0:31:20this by Gadgets360. This just seems like, "Where is this coming from again?" but we're back
0:31:26on that train. And I think he kind of, to me anyway, these quotes kind of shut it all
0:31:32down. So he said, "The reason we haven't done this is that it's much more complex than people
0:31:36know, and that's okay. It's our job to think about complex problems. But the App Store
0:31:40has reached so many successful milestones without it, so without upgrade pricing, because
0:31:44the business model makes sense to customers. So you talk about the new business models
0:31:48make sense to customers. And then he goes on to say, "And the upgrade model, which
0:31:52I know very well from my days of running many large software programs, is a model from the
0:31:57shrink-wrapped software days that for some developers is still very important. For most,
0:32:02It's not really a part of the future we are going.
0:32:05I think many developers, I think for many developers, subscription model is a better
0:32:10way to go to try and come up with a list of features and different pricing for upgrade
0:32:14versus for new customers.
0:32:18It kind of seems a bit like he's just shutting it down now, right?
0:32:21It's like, I understand people want upgrade pricing.
0:32:25That's not where we are now.
0:32:26Right?
0:32:27Like we have new tools, use those.
0:32:30I do think, and I posted this on Mac stories, I think it's a complex issue and I see some
0:32:37of the points that Shiller mentioned as valid. I do think that the App Store has found incredible
0:32:43success with the simpler model. You don't have to think about "do I own an existing
0:32:47license and what is the price if I'm a new customer or if I'm an old customer?" So the
0:32:53App Store is easy to use. But at the same time, I also realize that some developers
0:32:58could have used something like upgrade pricing years ago,
0:33:02when the iPad was new, for example,
0:33:04or even when the iPad Pro was new, when iOS 9 came out,
0:33:07and a lot of developers were wondering,
0:33:09we want to make professional apps on the App Store
0:33:11for the iPad, but how do we monetize this?
0:33:13Because we've seen that paid apps
0:33:15are not gonna cut it for us anymore,
0:33:17and we want to retain our best customers.
0:33:19And it's important to remember that this discussion,
0:33:21the upgrade pricing discussion,
0:33:23has been going on for years now,
0:33:24and Apple only added subscriptions
0:33:26for all categories of apps on the App Store last year.
0:33:29And I'm talking about the auto-renewable subscriptions
0:33:31that you buy with your iTunes account
0:33:34and they renew automatically.
0:33:35It was rolled out last year.
0:33:37So I think it's valid in both ways.
0:33:41I think Schiller has pointed the App Store is easy to use,
0:33:44but I also hear the concerns of developers who say,
0:33:46"We're not sure how to monetize our apps
0:33:50because we've struggled to implement in-app purchases
0:33:53and many of our customers don't want to subscribe.
0:33:56they just want to pay once, but stay with us over the years.
0:34:00And Shiller is saying, well, you should really look into subscriptions now, because that's
0:34:04the way that you can do free trials, that's the way that you can do discounts for people
0:34:11who migrate between different groups of subscriptions, and that, for Apple, seems to be the way forward.
0:34:18I just feel like, if subscriptions were rolled out years ago, maybe three years ago, the
0:34:24upgrade pricing discussion would have settled a long time ago. Instead we're still talking
0:34:28about it because, you know, it's relatively a new thing. And, you know, there are some
0:34:34upstrying subscriptions and I've done some research this week, it's maybe slightly more
0:34:39than I was expecting, but it still feels like we're in the early stages of developers of
0:34:47productivity apps and utilities considering subscriptions. So it's still early and I want
0:34:52to see what happens to WWDC? I'm sure that there are lots of apps that are
0:34:58using subscriptions. I feel like I'm not seeing as many as I expected in the
0:35:02applications that I use and I do use a lot of professional apps, right? Like I
0:35:06use a lot of apps that could very well be put behind a subscription and I don't
0:35:13feel like I'm seeing as many as I thought I would see and I wonder
0:35:18why that's the case. Like, you know, applications that I've seen in the past that do like the
0:35:24really clunky upgrade model, right? Like here's a new application, it's a brand new app, pay
0:35:30it. Like I have, I use a bunch of apps that have used that model in the past that haven't
0:35:35attempted, or it seems, to move over to subscriptions. I mean, of course, there's always a time for
0:35:42that to change, right? Where they could do it as they're getting ready for a new big
0:35:45version but I was honestly really expecting to see more than what I'm seeing here.
0:35:51So it kind of confuses me where I'm like a lot of the indie development community
0:35:57is still asking for upgrade pricing but they haven't changed their business models in
0:36:03the way that Apple clearly wants them to because I honestly really do not see Apple adding
0:36:09upgrade pricing to the App Store.
0:36:12I don't think it's going to happen.
0:36:14It is a big, it would be a big change to the overall market and the overall business for
0:36:21a small set of users.
0:36:25Because you know, you've got such a small set of applications that would take advantage
0:36:29of it and then a small set of those users that would actually make the upgrades, that
0:36:34it makes more sense for them to try and double down on newer ways of doing things like charging
0:36:41subscriptions, which is a newer business model, or in-app purchases, right, like
0:36:45free of in-app purchase type applications, it makes more sense I think for Apple to
0:36:49push on those. I know that it's a struggle for a bunch of developers who
0:36:53either can't do subscriptions for whatever reason or don't want to or are
0:36:57not sure how to make it work, but I feel like if you're still running a business
0:37:01that is reliant on upgrade pricing, I mean that ship sailed ten years ago now.
0:37:07Like, I love you, but find a new way to charge for your application.
0:37:13Because, as I said, it's been 10 years and it hasn't been here.
0:37:17So I don't think it's ever gonna come, but even if it does, you should probably stop waiting
0:37:22and try and do something else. I'm sorry, I love you.
0:37:26Yeah. Look, I think there's a... developers are well aware of the fact that
0:37:33the realities of the apps are different and they're never going to be the same as the shareware era of Mac OS software.
0:37:42And I see some developers trying new approaches.
0:37:46And I see some developers trying subscriptions, trying free trials, which Apple now condones by the way.
0:37:53If you use a subscription model, you can do a free trial. You actually have a bunch of options.
0:37:57And I was at the sessions at WWDC last year on subscriptions.
0:38:01There's a lot that you can try and experiment with. You can do groups, you can do trials, you get a higher
0:38:06commission if a user stays with you for over a year. There's a grace period.
0:38:11There's a lot of settings for developers who want to try subscriptions, and it's pretty sweet actually. But I feel like at the same time
0:38:17if Apple wants to insist on this idea that if you want to do a professional app on the App Store, and I do believe
0:38:24that we need many of those. We need the apps to have not just weather apps, you know, maximum
0:38:29respect to weather apps and calculators, but we also need more serious software. And there's
0:38:34only half of the story coming from Apple. So yes, we do have subscriptions. What other
0:38:40incentives do we have? Can we make iPad apps? Can we make professional apps that are just
0:38:45as powerful as the Mac counterparts? So it's pretty sweet that we can do subscriptions.
0:38:50But do we have the APIs to make those professional apps as powerful, as intuitive, and as flexible
0:38:57as they can be on the desktop?
0:38:58Because otherwise people are just going to create web apps and desktop apps and charge
0:39:02on their own stores.
0:39:03So it's great that iTunes Connect has these options now, but it also needs to happen on
0:39:08an API and SDK level.
0:39:10They need to allow developers to make powerful stuff and charge for it with a new model.
0:39:15But I only think we're halfway there.
0:39:17I think it's interesting too that Schiller framed it the way that he did.
0:39:22Before he was at Apple, he was at Macromedia, probably like 20 years ago.
0:39:26In saying that, he's really saying, to your point, Myke, this is an old way of thinking
0:39:31about it.
0:39:32As you guys are talking, I was just looking through my iPhone, my home screen and apps
0:39:36I use a lot.
0:39:37There are a lot of those apps that I do pay for, but they're not necessarily subscriptions
0:39:42in the app store.
0:39:43like Todoist is free, but I'm paying for a premium account through their website.
0:39:48Or like 1Password, I pay for teams and family.
0:39:53So I'm paying on an ongoing basis to use it, but the app itself is free.
0:39:57So even if you're not paying for an app subscription through the store, many of the apps and services
0:40:02we use, there's some sort of account component that you're paying for.
0:40:07But I agree with you guys, it's just,
0:40:10it's a really outdated way of thinking about it.
0:40:13And you can say that it was prematurely put out to pasture
0:40:17because Apple structured the way that they did.
0:40:21But that's beside the point because Apple controls it.
0:40:24Like, you may be mad that Apple got rid of a business model
0:40:27you used to use, but without the App Store,
0:40:29there would be no business model to be had.
0:40:31So I think holding onto that is,
0:40:35Well it's understandable, the time has passed and I think that the subscription model Apple
0:40:41has laid out is the way forward.
0:40:44And you know there was a lot of talk in the beginning about subscription fatigue, like
0:40:49am I just going to be paying $3 a month for 100 apps?
0:40:53I don't think this happened to anybody.
0:40:55And I agree with you that it may increase over time as apps get updated.
0:41:00But I think that upgrade fatigue is real too.
0:41:03And if every time you upgraded a version of an iOS app and they pinged you for more money,
0:41:10I think people would get tired of that and people would be hesitant to update their apps
0:41:15because they're unsure if it's free or if it's going to be paid, they don't want to
0:41:17be surprised.
0:41:18And so I think subscriptions make the whole thing more predictable for a user, which is
0:41:23what users want.
0:41:25And they give developers who do the work to earn that money, they give them reliable income
0:41:33each month.
0:41:34And that's what developers want.
0:41:35It's a win-win.
0:41:36And so I think it's just time to move on.
0:41:39Speaking of which, let's move on.
0:41:41This episode of Connected is brought to you by Away.
0:41:44Your luggage shouldn't cost more than your plane ticket.
0:41:47And that's why Away make premium suitcases with fantastic features for just under $300,
0:41:53believe it or not.
0:41:54Go to awaytravel.com/connected and you'll be able to peruse Away's collection of suitcases
0:41:59all made with premium German polycarbonate which is unrivaled in strength and impact
0:42:04resistance while still remaining lightweight.
0:42:07Away offers four sizes of suitcase, the carry-on, the bigger carry-on, the medium and the large
0:42:12and they have nine fantastic colors for you to choose from.
0:42:14I just did a bunch of traveling in April.
0:42:17On one of the trips we were coming back from Romania and both of our suitcases were coming
0:42:22out of the carousel and Adina's comes first and she has this huge crack in it and then
0:42:26mine comes perfectly fine. So that is the German polycarbonate at work with my away
0:42:32suitcase which I was taking with me. I really love my away suitcase, it was fantastic for
0:42:36some of the trips that I was taking it on because it has the four wheels which I really
0:42:40love, the 360 degree four wheels which is awesome, so much better than two wheels. It
0:42:45has a removable washable laundry bag so when you're at the place that you're at you can
0:42:51just take this laundry bag out from a little zip pocket and just put your dirty laundry
0:42:54on there. You can zip it all up and then put it back in the case when you're done which
0:42:58I really like so it keeps everything separate. Of course the best feature is the USB power
0:43:04brick which is on the carry-on models so you always have a battery with you to charge your
0:43:09phone it's fantastic. All of their carry-ons are compliant with major US airlines and they
0:43:15all maximise the amount that you can pack because they have this amazing compression
0:43:18system which gets you tons of stuff into these cases.
0:43:23Away believe in the quality of their products, they offer a lifetime guarantee, if anything
0:43:26breaks they'll fix it or replace it for life. They have a 100 day trial as well, so you
0:43:31can try it, you can live with it, you can travel with it and if at any point you decide
0:43:35your Away case isn't for you, you can return it for a full refund, no questions asked and
0:43:39they have free shipping on any order within the lower 48 states of the US but they do
0:43:44ship to other places around the world as well.
0:43:47smarter with the suitcase that charges your phone. Go to awaytravel.com/connected and
0:43:52use the code connected at checkout and you'll get $20 off any of their suitcases. That's
0:43:57awaytravel.com/connected and the code connected for $20 off. Thank you so much to Away for
0:44:02their support of this show and Relay FM.
0:44:07So just before the episode today, Amazon announced the Echo Show. The Echo Show.
0:44:13Is that a podcast?
0:44:14It's a new podcast, it's me and Jeff Bezos and we're just in a really big room and there's
0:44:21just a lot of echo, right?
0:44:23Get it?
0:44:24Get it, right?
0:44:25Wow.
0:44:26No.
0:44:27The show is over guys, go check out the show notes.
0:44:29Do you read the show notes?
0:44:31What are we talking about now?
0:44:32I'm really confused.
0:44:33Oh God.
0:44:34Okay.
0:44:35So the Echo Show, it will be released on June 28th for $229.
0:44:41no international release or pricing information as of the time of recording.
0:44:46It features a 7 inch touchscreen, a 5 megapixel camera mounted on the front for video calling,
0:44:52powerful room filling speakers who Dolby processing, which is something we lifted off of the page
0:44:59so it sounds a bit marketingy, and it has the same 8 microphone away as in the tall
0:45:04the Ray sorry as in the tall Echo so it can hear you from other rooms and it can do all
0:45:09noise cancellation and stuff like that.
0:45:11So it's got everything the current Echo has, the big long tube, with a touch screen on
0:45:16the front of it.
0:45:17Now what can you do with said touch screen, Steven?
0:45:19You can do all sorts of things.
0:45:21You can touch it and you can see things.
0:45:23Touch screen.
0:45:24There's both.
0:45:25Should be a product developer, Steven.
0:45:27I know.
0:45:28Wow.
0:45:29So they, from their marketing page, which is really all we have at this point, the Flash
0:45:34briefings that are part of the Echo service now, so you can say, "Hey, what's the news?"
0:45:39You know, you get audio.
0:45:40They're working with content providers to do video, so you could ask it what the news
0:45:43is, and little, I guess, Steve Inskeep from NPR walks out on your Echo and tells you the
0:45:49news.
0:45:50"Oh, they should do it that way!"
0:45:51Right?
0:45:52Where like, someone's walking across the bottom of the screen and they're like, "Hey there!
0:45:55Let me tell you about the news!"
0:45:57Yeah, I'd be off for that.
0:46:00Alright, we're gonna pivot.
0:46:01Pivot, everyone!
0:46:02It seems like it'll do YouTube playback, although I'm not quite sure if it's like a YouTube
0:46:05client or you just talk to it and it pulls you something.
0:46:08If you're listening to Amazon Music, so if you like any of the six albums that are streaming
0:46:13on Amazon Music, you can see the lyrics for those.
0:46:16You can see footage from security cameras that connect with the Echo service.
0:46:23I have NestCams at home and I have a Canary, neither of them work with this, so I'm questioning
0:46:28everything about my security camera setup.
0:46:31But you could ask it to show security footage from the front porch and it shows you a live
0:46:34stream of that, which is super nice.
0:46:36- It works with two different providers right now.
0:46:38It's Ring, who do the doorbells and cameras,
0:46:41and it's one of a company's name I can't remember.
0:46:43I'd never heard of them before.
0:46:45- Yes, that is-- - You think Arlo camera?
0:46:48- Yeah, Arlo.
0:46:49- Yeah, that's Netgear, I think.
0:46:51It's the Netgear brand for cameras,
0:46:53if I recall correctly, I think.
0:46:55- Okay, so that, I think, is pretty compelling.
0:47:00They're gonna have some other stuff on there,
0:47:02weather forecast, you can see your shopping list,
0:47:04the do list, and that sort of stuff.
0:47:06So it is a way to sort of bring that content more to life
0:47:11than just what they can do with just a speaker.
0:47:14So it seems like kind of a natural evolution.
0:47:18But they're also adding video conferencing
0:47:20via this Echo and the companion mobile app.
0:47:23And it seems like they're doing audio calling
0:47:24for all devices, so we could talk on our Echos,
0:47:28if your iPhone isn't nearby, I guess, I don't know.
0:47:30But I did sort of laugh.
0:47:34Our friend Zach who writes at 9to5Mac tweeted,
0:47:37"Echo with a camera and no display."
0:47:38So I'm talking about last week.
0:47:39"Creepy, echo with a camera and a screen, okay."
0:47:43So like, I kinda laugh at that.
0:47:45- I'm sure you can see the difference, right?
0:47:48Like I know why.
0:47:49- What's the difference?
0:47:50- Okay, so one of the reasons people find the look,
0:47:52I guess a little bit creepier,
0:47:53although I don't think it is,
0:47:54which we were talking about last week,
0:47:56that's going in the bedroom, right?
0:47:58Like I think that's one of the things
0:47:59is it's going in the bedroom,
0:48:01which is what people don't like.
0:48:02- Yeah, that's how they're marketing it.
0:48:04So that's I think that the marketing that you were seeing for the look was kind of different.
0:48:09I don't know. I don't think they're creepy, but I can see why people would say that. Plus
0:48:14there is this weird thing about the screen. It's like, oh, I know these devices, but no
0:48:20screen. It's like, what are you doing in there? You know, like there's just this like nebulousness
0:48:25about it when you, when there's like no UI. So you're like, are you looking at me? Like
0:48:30You can't see what it's doing because it's giving you no visual and it's got lights and
0:48:35stuff or whatever.
0:48:36But like we're used to like I'm looking at the big screen right now and as a camera on
0:48:39top there's another one right there, there's another one right there.
0:48:41I look at one all day.
0:48:42I'm used to that.
0:48:43But like these little cameras that just sit there quietly, they're a little bit more creepy
0:48:48looking I think.
0:48:49Because it's a security camera, right?
0:48:51Like I think we're maybe a little bit more like there are any security cameras all around
0:48:55us.
0:48:56We don't know who's looking at.
0:48:57This is a different mental thing.
0:48:58But I do get the joke.
0:48:59Yeah, I think I think it's a fair assessment I agree with you like it's just the the marketing
0:49:04But yes, they're gonna be a video conferencing video conferencing with it, which I think is really interesting
0:49:10This comes at a time where any smartphone iPhone or not can do video conferencing
0:49:16And Myke I think you have some thoughts around like the pros and cons of that
0:49:20Yeah, I think it's kind of strange too. So this this device this echo show you're gonna set it up in a place in your house
0:49:27Right, it's probably gonna be the kitchen because that's where most people tend to put their echoes
0:49:32It may change with this device
0:49:34But like let's just imagine it's all gonna go in the kitchen
0:49:36If you want to make a video call like everyone has to go to the kitchen and like stand in front of the device
0:49:42It just seems strange to me like you're like, oh I need to call grandma
0:49:46Let me go to the kitchen and then whatever all the whole family like huddles around the kitchen counter
0:49:50To look at like we have our devices now that we have you can be anywhere you want to be and they're in your hand
0:49:56and you're holding them up and it's fine, right? Like it's easy.
0:49:59Yeah, but Amazon is adding calling and messaging to the Alexa app on iOS and Android.
0:50:03No, that's great. That's awesome. I think that's great. That's a really good thing.
0:50:06But I'm just saying like this one device, the Echo Show, right? Like the idea of there
0:50:11being video conferencing on that one device just, it just seems strange to me. It's like,
0:50:16it doesn't really feel like the setting in which you would make these calls. And for
0:50:20having the audio calls, which is now coming to all of the devices, audio calling makes
0:50:24way more sense to me for the same reasons that the Echo currently works. With audio
0:50:29calling, you could be walking around a bit. You don't have to be looking at the device,
0:50:32you can have your back to the device, especially if the microphones are as good as we think
0:50:36they are. You could be on the other side of the room and it will pick you up fine when
0:50:40you're speaking to people. And with audio calling, you can continue doing whatever you're
0:50:44doing. So I could be, as I'm always doing when I'm using the Echo, I'm cooking. I can
0:50:49be having an audio call. A video call whilst I'm cooking doesn't really work so well, so
0:50:54So I can see why they're adding...
0:50:56I don't know, maybe with your parents it could work, you know?
0:50:59Why though?
0:51:00I think for...
0:51:01I mean, I do occasionally do FaceTime with my mom when I'm cooking just because, you
0:51:08know, I just put the iPhone there and I do the video call.
0:51:11I mean, sure, but then if you're moving away, right, like if the call... if you're not done
0:51:15with the call and you're ready to leave the room, you just pick up the iPhone and you
0:51:20take it with you, right?
0:51:22My point is that I don't really think that for the video calling aspect, this gives us
0:51:26anything that we need, that we don't already have served by other devices.
0:51:32The only thing that it will do is that the hands free and it's all in the place, but
0:51:36I just think that the audio calling makes more sense to me than the video calls, because
0:51:40it just seems awkward.
0:51:41But I don't know.
0:51:42Who am I to say?
0:51:44I don't know.
0:51:45This looks kind of clever to me.
0:51:47I was against the idea of the echo with the screen, and I was under the assumption that
0:51:51But it was going to be a small screen, kind of like a glorified intercom, like a very
0:51:55tiny display.
0:51:57And I wasn't, I don't know, I wasn't under the impression that Amazon wanted to do like
0:52:03a mini, like an iPad mini screen.
0:52:05And this makes a lot more sense to me.
0:52:07And the idea of this stationary display that just sits there, and you can view menus, and
0:52:13you can view, you know, you can tap around if you want, you can view confirmation messages,
0:52:16you can view lyrics, and you can do video calls without having to worry about using
0:52:22a phone. I don't know, it kind of makes sense to me. There's sort of a relief about it.
0:52:27You know, it just sits there and if I want to do a video call, I just sit there, otherwise
0:52:33I don't. There's something about it.
0:52:34Don't get me wrong. I think that this device makes as much sense as the Echo does for all
0:52:39the things that it does, and it will be better, right? Like, the idea of being in the kitchen
0:52:44and asking the questions and getting some visual prompts or like asking it to show me
0:52:48a video like I agree with all of that like I think that stuff is good I think that is
0:52:52a good advancement. The only thing that I just think is honestly superfluous is the
0:52:58video conferencing I just don't think it's that necessary but I the product as a whole
0:53:04I think it is a good continuation of the Amazon Echo line like it is a logical next step like
0:53:12to move to continue to move down this road like what else can we do if we had
0:53:15a screen oh we can have security cameras on there oh and we can show people video
0:53:19like again if I'm working in Amazon I'm probably gonna put video conferencing in
0:53:23the thing right because it's got a camera and a screen on it like you put
0:53:26it in there yeah but but like I just don't think people are gonna use it but
0:53:31I think that the audio calling is is clever I would be interested to see how
0:53:36that takes off because like the Amazon companion app for these devices kind of
0:53:43sucks. It's terrible. It's so bad. Just awful. I can't see how they're gonna do a good
0:53:48experience of audio and video calling inside of the current application that
0:53:52they have because it is terrible. Something about the video calling though
0:53:56that makes sense to me a lot and I do see your point there's the drop-in
0:54:02feature. Basically if you have like an elderly relative and they have an echo show, it just
0:54:09sits there, you can drop in and check in on them without having to teach them how to,
0:54:15for example, use the facetime UI on the phone. And there's something about it, it's like
0:54:18a remote camera for someone that you want to check in with.
0:54:23That's kind of weird though. It is, but it also kind of, I mean...
0:54:26I don't think I like that. I can see why you would like that, I don't like that.
0:54:31my grandma was alive, I would have liked something like this, honestly. To be able to drop in
0:54:37and check in on her. And she used to live alone, you know? And this would have been
0:54:41useful, I think.
0:54:42Yeah, I agree in like, in those scenarios, like the scenario you have painted there,
0:54:50that is a good reason to have something like this. I struggle to think of anything outside
0:54:54of elderly care and childcare where you would want something like that.
0:54:58Yeah.
0:54:59Can you explain this? I don't think I've seen this feature. What is this drop-in feature?
0:55:02So like you can just pop in?
0:55:04I'm only reading through the webpage on the Amazon website, but basically there's the normal
0:55:11calling. So you can do voice calling, you can do video calling, and there's drop-in.
0:55:15And my understanding is you gotta authorize some contacts,
0:55:18Amazon describes them as closest family and friends, to be able to just drop in and
0:55:27check in on them. And I assume there's going to be like a simplified UI or a simplified
0:55:31prompt to be able to initiate video calling. That seems to be the idea. I don't know. There's
0:55:38an FAQ on the website that says, "Can I specify who gets to drop in on me?" And Amazon says,
0:55:45"Yes, you choose who, if anyone, can drop in on you. You also choose which devices are available
0:55:50for drop-in. For example, you might turn on drop-in for the Echo Show in the kitchen,
0:55:54but not for the icon show in the living room.
0:55:57Okay, I mean, okay, I can see the benefits of this feature, but I don't...
0:56:03It's a very narrow use case, I think.
0:56:05I don't know if I like it, right?
0:56:07I don't know, I don't know about that, I don't know about that.
0:56:11Just because like, say with the canary, right?
0:56:14You can do that when I set it in certain modes,
0:56:18and you have like, the mode has to be changed for the camera to be viewable.
0:56:21this is kind of a little bit like you could just pop in on anyone at any point.
0:56:26I don't know, it just seems a bit strange. But there are uses, right? Like we've established
0:56:30them. There are definite use cases for this, but I can just see like
0:56:34uncomfortable conversations. Yes, yes. You know, and also I love the idea of friends.
0:56:43Who is giving this to their friends, not their family? No, not to their friends, but you know.
0:56:50I will give one to my parents, honestly, and to tell them, "Okay, just put this in the
0:56:56kitchen, don't do any weird stuff in the kitchen, oh God." And anytime I want, I can drop in
0:57:02on you guys. You see? You have to have that conversation.
0:57:07No one wants to, right? But that's it. That's the conversation. It's like you could just
0:57:11you could pop in and then, "Oh, I don't like it, man."
0:57:13I assume there's going to be like, like the assistant whose name I won't say, will be
0:57:18be like there's a drop-in incoming from Federico in five seconds, something like that, I assume.
0:57:24I don't know, we gotta see it in practice. A lot of what Amazon is doing with the Echo
0:57:30sort of floats between genius and uncomfortable, this whole product line.
0:57:36That is the way of pushing this stuff forward though, right? Like all of these types of
0:57:41assistants very frequently, they're gonna fly too close to the sun, right? Like that
0:57:47is kind of the way that we move this technology forward is every now and then something's
0:57:53going to be great and every now and then something's too close to being weird, right? And it's
0:57:57like it is a balance that they have to find, but they have to go that far to know how far
0:58:03they can go. But there are strange points about it, right? So it's like you can take
0:58:08these features and they can be terrifying and really useful for different people. Like
0:58:15I don't really like the sound of this feature, but I can understand that some people could
0:58:20find real genuine use in it. But I think that it makes me feel uncomfortable, honestly.
0:58:29But I can appreciate the use in it. I'm not just going to blanket say that it's creepy,
0:58:35because I don't think it is, but it just is for me. I just don't like the thought of it.
0:58:39Not that, you know, I'm not like doing, I don't know, cooking meth or anything.
0:58:43Can I drop in on you, Myke?
0:58:47I really don't, I just don't want you to. I mean, you know, like I'm sometimes I'm in
0:58:51my underwear, right? Like that's just the thing. I'm in my home. Leave me alone. All
0:58:55right. I'm in my home. It's my home. I do what I want. I don't want you popping in.
0:58:59Yeah. I won't drop in. Don't worry. I just dropped in on Steven. It's fine.
0:59:04It's like I won't drop in that often, you know.
0:59:07It's okay with it. He told me he preferred to show he's okay with it. So yeah.
0:59:12So here's the thing, right? This product is not shipping for like seven weeks. Now apparently
0:59:18there are rumors that Google might be getting ready to show a very similar product to Google
0:59:22I/O next week. I've seen some rumors of that. That's kind of interesting, right? Amazon
0:59:28were like "well, here we go! June 28th!"
0:59:31Do you think it was announced before Google just to put the pre-orders in, for example?
0:59:36Yeah, I do. I do. This is a thing that companies do, right? Like, big competitor has an event
0:59:43in like a week. We have a product that's nearly ready to go. Why don't we just announce the
0:59:50product now? Right? Like this is a thing that these companies do because you don't know
0:59:54what they're going to have, right? Lots of companies do this to Apple, for example, right?
0:59:58There's an Apple event on the horizon. Let's make sure we all get our phone announcements
1:00:02out now because we have no idea what they're about to do.
1:00:06Yeah, like what's the name of the headphone company? Bragi? Bragi?
1:00:10Oh yeah.
1:00:11With the AirPods? They just held an event in Cupertino like a day before the Apple one.
1:00:17So yeah, I do, I get it, I get it. Makes sense.
1:00:20I had an interesting conversation with my spouse about this last night. You know, it
1:00:23was heavily rumored that it was coming and, like I've talked about, we use the Echo, it's
1:00:27in our kitchen like everyone else's is.
1:00:29And she was, I pre-ordered one,
1:00:32so we'll see how this goes,
1:00:33but I was surprised to hear her hesitancy
1:00:36to put something like this in the kitchen
1:00:38because it had a screen.
1:00:39Not the camera thing, but that she wasn't in love
1:00:44with the idea of having a screen,
1:00:46having that sort of technology in the kitchen
1:00:48that she likes, that the Echo is just a voice assistant.
1:00:51You speak to it, so you're not kinda glued to looking at it.
1:00:54I found that interesting,
1:00:57and so this thing may end up just in my office with me,
1:01:00but the way Amazon presents is like
1:01:02you have one in your kitchen,
1:01:03you have one in your living room.
1:01:04Like they are trying to build an ecosystem
1:01:07where you have this thing sort of like
1:01:09ever present in your house.
1:01:10And if this sticks in my household,
1:01:13you know, we'll have to put the tall echo somewhere.
1:01:15So maybe that comes in the office
1:01:16and the dot goes in the bedroom or something, you know?
1:01:18But it's, I found that interesting that she didn't want,
1:01:23like that level of technology in the kitchen.
1:01:26She likes the Echo 'cause you can ignore it
1:01:28unless you want it, but a screen,
1:01:31the kids are gonna wanna look at it all the time
1:01:33and it's distracting.
1:01:34And usually, I don't know how y'all's kitchens are,
1:01:36but where Echo is is very often stuff gets
1:01:38set in front of it, so we'd have to deal with that.
1:01:42It's just an interesting change from having something
1:01:47that is just a voice system.
1:01:48- What I find fascinating is the reverse approach
1:01:51that Amazon is taking with getting developers
1:01:53to build stuff for the Echo platform.
1:01:55So take Apple for instance, or even Google.
1:01:58They both started with the main OS on the phone,
1:02:01and they get developers to build apps.
1:02:03So native apps, the basic component is the app.
1:02:06And over the years, both Apple and Google
1:02:08have added all of these extra pieces on top of the app.
1:02:11So extensions, widgets, the Siri API, and iMessage.
1:02:16Instead, Amazon is starting from the very extra pieces.
1:02:19So they're starting with the Echo skills,
1:02:22So very rudimentary skills.
1:02:23You can talk to the Echo
1:02:24and you can receive audio responses.
1:02:26Then they added on top, you know, more textual components,
1:02:30a deeper API, deeper conversations,
1:02:32and AI APIs the developers could integrate with.
1:02:37Now they're adding a visual UI.
1:02:40I assume there's going to be, if not today,
1:02:42there's going to be eventually an announcement
1:02:43of with the Echo SDK,
1:02:45you will be able to build visual interfaces.
1:02:49And so Amazon is getting closer to having this app ecosystem that didn't start from
1:02:54the traditional App Store, well they tried with the Amazon App Store and the Fire Phone,
1:02:59but now they're trying again with the reverse approach of the main platform owners, which
1:03:04are Apple and Google, and instead they're starting from these islands and they're eventually
1:03:10maybe going to have their own OS, but in a different way.
1:03:14I find that very fascinating and different from the rest of the industry, honestly.
1:03:19Yeah, I feel like of everyone that is doing this, I mean, and we'll see what Google come
1:03:24out with and we'll see what Apple may eventually come out with. But, you know, like in the
1:03:28world and these things currently exist, right, there are Cortana devices starting to pop
1:03:32up. Amazon definitely seems the most serious, right? Like they are the ones that are really
1:03:39putting a lot of weight behind this. I feel like the, I mean, the Google Home doesn't
1:03:44really seem to have really pushed forward. And, you know, I hope that we see something
1:03:49from them next week. But, you know, like it was like, oh, we're going to add these different
1:03:53integrations and they added some and that was kind of it. Where Amazon is very much
1:03:57just like, we're an open platform, come and do what you need. And I feel like that there
1:04:02is more advancement going on here than there is with our companies, especially when this
1:04:08This is like what the fifth device, Echo device?
1:04:12Yeah.
1:04:13Right?
1:04:14Because they did what the regular one, the dot, the little Bluetooth, the little battery
1:04:17powered one.
1:04:18Yeah.
1:04:19Then the look and now the show, right?
1:04:20Yeah.
1:04:21They are really iterating quickly.
1:04:22Yeah.
1:04:23And continuing to advance their technology.
1:04:27This is a serious play for Amazon.
1:04:29Nobody knows how well these things actually sell, but however many it is, it's enough
1:04:34money or enough sales for Amazon to believe that they're onto something to the point that
1:04:38they will continue to keep making and releasing new devices.
1:04:42What should be, maybe to a degree, concerning for Apple is the degree that Amazon is going
1:04:48out for developers by offering them APIs to do stuff like OCR AI features in the cloud.
1:04:57So to get developers to rely on their platforms, kind of like they did for websites with the
1:05:02AWS, they're doing now for machine learning, for AI features, computer vision, OCR, all
1:05:12of these modern implementations. They're getting developers to rely on them. And they're also
1:05:18saying, now you can use those SDKs and those APIs from us in your Amazon Echo skills and
1:05:26apps. You can also implement them in other iOS apps. So they're kind of gaining a foothold
1:05:31in the developers ecosystem in a different way.
1:05:34And that is why I believe eventually,
1:05:37Apple is gonna get serious about telling developers,
1:05:39"Well, now you can also have our API
1:05:43for AI machine learning, OCR,
1:05:46all of these modern computer vision stuff.
1:05:49You can have them natively from us as well."
1:05:51Maybe it's gonna be a cloud kit component,
1:05:54but if you look at Amazon,
1:05:55what they're doing with the Echo platform,
1:05:57with the voice services and with the AI stuff,
1:06:00even if you look at Microsoft,
1:06:01with the, it used to be called Project Oxford,
1:06:05now I think it's called Microsoft Cognitive Services.
1:06:08But both companies are serious about getting developers
1:06:11to rely on this stuff, voice activation,
1:06:14text processing, text to speech, speech to text,
1:06:17all of these modern features that Apple doesn't offer
1:06:19in the cloud, it doesn't offer as a cloud kit component.
1:06:23And I think Apple eventually has to get serious
1:06:24about this space otherwise developers are gonna rely
1:06:27on Amazon just like website owners rely on Amazon today
1:06:30CDNs and you know any kind of content delivery really. So Stephen you mentioned
1:06:36you'd ordered one right? I did yep. The shows okay and Federico are you gonna I
1:06:42mean it's not available it's outside of the US right now. Yes but thanks to our
1:06:46common friend John I indirectly pre-ordered one and I assume I will get
1:06:53it eventually you know UPS. So you're not going via a sketchy eBay salesperson. Well I
1:06:59Well I mean, I don't think Jon is a sketch individual.
1:07:03So no, not the...
1:07:05You see?
1:07:06No, no, he's a great guy.
1:07:07So he's gonna ship one to me from the US.
1:07:11Hopefully it'll work just as the Echo from the US works in Italy, which is, you don't
1:07:16get most of the location stuff, but you get everything else.
1:07:20I'm probably gonna do exactly what I did last time.
1:07:23Like a bit of a wait and see.
1:07:25I wanna see how you guys react to it, because I'm not really that keen on doing that.
1:07:29whole thing of like buying one from the US getting it shipped to me because I
1:07:34like what I currently have I'm fine with it like I'm not I'm not aching for a
1:07:38touchscreen version of this I think it would be nice but like I'm not like oh
1:07:41if only you know it's not really a thing that I have but if if you guys get it
1:07:46and or people start to get it and love it as much as they love the original one
1:07:50then maybe I'll maybe I'll pick one up when I'm in some time in America I mean
1:07:57What is it like end of June this thing comes out or it's maybe sometime in August or something.
1:08:02But yeah I mean or they may just announce it in the UK which Amazon you have such strange
1:08:09product sales very peculiar. So we'll see but yeah that is it the Amazon Echo Show.
1:08:17What do you think I'd name by the way? I mean I've made jokes about it but like.
1:08:21I like it. Yeah it does the job right? I think so.
1:08:25Yeah.
1:08:26One of our show notes for this week, Relay.fm/Connected/141 thanks to Encapsula and Away for sponsoring
1:08:33this week's episode.
1:08:34If you'd like to find Federico online, he's over at MacStories.net, he's @Fatici on Twitter,
1:08:40V-I-T-I-C-C-I, and of course, as well as his shows on Relay FM, Federico hosts the App
1:08:45Stories podcast, which is, it's AppStories.net, right Federico?
1:08:48Yes, yes.
1:08:49You can go check that out.
1:08:51Steven is at 512pixels.net, he's @ismh on twitter and he is the producer. So fancy,
1:08:58I called him a producer at the start of the show, but he is the actual producer of Download
1:09:04on Relay FM, you should go check it out at relay.fm/download. So it's a great show, it's
1:09:09getting better and better every single week, you should go check it out. I am @imike, I
1:09:13am YKE and I don't really do anything else. Thanks so much for listening, until next time,
1:09:17say goodbye guys. Adios.