135: This Might Be Our Fault


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:05   From Relay FM, this is Connected, episode 135.

00:00:09   Today's show is brought to you by Encapsula, Blue Apron, and Eero.

00:00:14   My name is Myke Hurley, I'm joined by Federico Vittucci. Ciao Federico!

00:00:18   Ciao Myke!

00:00:19   And Steven Hackett. Hola!

00:00:22   Howdy!

00:00:22   How you doing?

00:00:23   It's not really his language.

00:00:25   Well, you know, it could be.

00:00:28   We're back, all three of us. Welcome back Federico.

00:00:31   Thank you, it's great to be back.

00:00:33   You had a good time away, I trust?

00:00:36   Yeah, it was a great weekend.

00:00:39   Good, well deserved.

00:00:41   So we're back and we have a whole slew of follow-up,

00:00:47   but first we have a little bit of an announcement.

00:00:50   And you know it's important because I put it in Blink tags in the Google Doc.

00:00:53   Connected is shutting down.

00:00:55   Disappointingly blink tags aren't rendered in Google Docs but we have just

00:01:03   put up a blog post there'll be a link in the show notes in fact it will be the

00:01:06   first link in the show notes this week to a save the date for our WWDC 2017

00:01:13   meetup so we will be in San Jose with everyone else and Monday night June 5th

00:01:21   from 7 to 9 30 p.m. we will be at the San Jose Museum of Quilts and Textiles.

00:01:27   Yeah we are! That's a great location. Every time. I love it. Every time. So that may

00:01:36   sound a little strange that we're not doing it at a bar or theater but we

00:01:40   wanted to do something really different this year so the event is free. The event

00:01:45   is open to all ages. There will be beer so if you want to drink be sure to bring

00:01:50   your ID but they'll check it at the bar so if you are under 21 you can come

00:01:54   which we're really excited about and it's not a live show we're just gonna do

00:01:58   like a good old-fashioned social event meetup type thing. You still have to

00:02:03   have a ticket we are we do still have a cap and the number of people we can have

00:02:07   in the museum. It is larger than what we did last year which we're really excited

00:02:11   about so here's how to get a ticket if you signed up for this newsletter it is

00:02:17   a one-time email list. You will only ever receive one email from me on this. I'm going

00:02:22   to destroy the list after this. It's just to say when tickets go up. Our plan is to

00:02:26   have tickets up a week from today, if everything goes according to plan. And there'll be, if

00:02:35   last year is any indication, they will go super quickly. So I would definitely have

00:02:41   your name on that list so you are notified, because last year it was sold out.

00:02:45   Turn on push notifications for your email is what I recommend.

00:02:48   Yes.

00:02:49   It sold out in a year or in an hour last year.

00:02:52   Wow, one whole year it took.

00:02:54   Good job.

00:02:55   Slow, slow moving those tickets.

00:02:57   Slow burn.

00:02:58   It took an hour last time and those are paid tickets and this will be free.

00:03:01   So there are more tickets than last year but still we want to make sure anyone who wants

00:03:04   to come can get in.

00:03:05   So check out the link.

00:03:08   Again it's free Monday night so it will be free up the rest of your week.

00:03:11   So we are super excited about that.

00:03:13   a whole bunch of host will be there, the three of us will be there, we have a whole slew

00:03:16   of people who will be in town.

00:03:19   It'll be a lot of fun.

00:03:21   Just a couple of things, like on those tickets so you don't have to fret about it.

00:03:24   It will be, we're not going to give a time for when they're going to be available, but

00:03:27   it will be at a time that will be reasonable in all time zones including Pacific time.

00:03:33   So you don't have to worry about waking up at 3am or something, right?

00:03:37   It will be kind of morning time.

00:03:39   I want to ask you guys a few questions about this meetup.

00:03:43   So do people have to bring garments for the museum?

00:03:48   - Like a quilt?

00:03:51   - Well, I mean, you have to be dressed at least.

00:03:53   - Yeah. - Okay.

00:03:54   - If that's what you're referring to.

00:03:54   - Once the meetup is over,

00:03:56   are we leaving people inside the museum

00:03:58   as sort of an exhibition?

00:04:00   - Well, like, did I stay there?

00:04:02   I guess it depends how well-dressed you are really.

00:04:04   Like if your garments are worthy of the museum,

00:04:07   then yeah, maybe you stay, I don't know.

00:04:08   - That's right.

00:04:09   That's all I wanted to know. Perfect.

00:04:11   And I should say too, if you are a non-drinker with beer, just not your thing, we are also

00:04:16   doing super, what I've been promised, are super fancy Italian sodas, which I'm, as a

00:04:21   non-drinker, I'm excited about.

00:04:22   I also have questions about what is an Italian soda.

00:04:26   It's a soda with fancy things in it.

00:04:28   Soda with...okay. I mean, I guess I'll find out. I'll pretend not to be Italian.

00:04:33   Good luck with that.

00:04:34   Yeah, that's gonna be real tricky for you.

00:04:36   bring my my best South American accent which I never practiced. You should

00:04:42   practice that now on the show in front of everybody. Hey what's up y'all. I can be one of you guys.

00:04:51   Perfect. You're blending right in. So yeah so we are super excited about that. These events are a

00:04:58   lot of fun to put on and we hope to see everybody there. The thing that I am most

00:05:01   excited about and I'm really really pleased about this event that we're able

00:05:05   to do is that it will be open to all ages. This is something that is tricky, right? It

00:05:10   is really tricky because most of the venues around these sort of areas, especially as

00:05:15   it was in San Francisco, it's all bars. And by doing it at the museum, we're able to get

00:05:21   just an area where alcohol is served. And there'll be like, you know, everybody's going

00:05:25   to be idea to get it. But other than that, then you get to go and there's as Stephen

00:05:29   has said, I mean I'm very curious as well to know what an Italian soda is. We're all

00:05:35   going to find out together and we'll take lots of pictures of Federico perusing said

00:05:41   Italian sodas. So yeah, go and sign up for the email list. There'll be an email that

00:05:46   goes out next week once all the tickets have been, well I think it's once the ticket lottery

00:05:51   is kind of out, right? So we know. That's the plan, yeah. So then people that are, know

00:05:56   they're going to be going to San Jose, we'll know so they can get the tickets.

00:05:59   So that's why we're doing it this way. So there you go.

00:06:01   Yeah, yeah, last year there was a lot of back and forth after that.

00:06:05   What is the email client you recommend to stay updated about this?

00:06:10   I'm using airmail right now, but...

00:06:13   Just to make a little productive discussion here, what email clients should people use?

00:06:18   I would say airmail. I mean, maybe people should use Gmail.

00:06:21   Like if you're a Gmail person, probably use Gmail,

00:06:23   because it's probably going to get the fastest push notification.

00:06:26   I think you need to set up a Gmail account just for this.

00:06:29   - Yeah, I would also agree with that.

00:06:31   You know, you want an email account that is like monitored

00:06:34   and you can set it up via TTT

00:06:36   to make your lights blink or something, you know,

00:06:38   like really, really go to town on this one.

00:06:40   - All right, so I'm gonna issue a challenge

00:06:43   to our listeners where if you hook your Gmail notification

00:06:48   up to turn your hue lights red when you get this email,

00:06:52   send us a note and we will talk about you

00:06:53   in follow up next week.

00:06:55   If you can somehow prove that you've done this,

00:06:57   and you get a ticket, I will have a prize for you.

00:07:00   - We somehow managed to turn this

00:07:02   into an automation challenge.

00:07:04   - Don't we do everything though?

00:07:06   Isn't everything?

00:07:06   Just, isn't this show really just an automation challenge?

00:07:10   Like, isn't that what it is?

00:07:11   - I think so.

00:07:12   - Well, until Apple buys it.

00:07:14   - Oh, Steven, oh, Steven.

00:07:16   - Okay, so we're gonna do a regular follow-up now.

00:07:22   We've talked a lot about the Amazon lady in a tube.

00:07:27   I think all three of us like that platform a lot.

00:07:30   And we have all three really talked about this idea

00:07:34   that that assistant is not always with you

00:07:36   because she's stuck in a tube in your kitchen.

00:07:39   And the pros and cons of Amazon shipping an iOS app

00:07:44   that would allow that voice assistant to be in your pocket.

00:07:47   And a story broke a couple of weeks ago

00:07:49   that Amazon has put this in their Amazon iOS shopping app, which is like not

00:07:56   really where it belongs in my opinion. It was rolling out slowly to users. I've got

00:08:01   it on my account now and yeah it works just like the Echo works. You know it's

00:08:05   it's all the same service. And I was curious does this answer the question?

00:08:11   Does this solve the problem that Phil Schiller and many people pointed out

00:08:14   that Amazon's assistant is stuck in your kitchen and can't go with you? I mean do

00:08:19   Do you really expect to be talking to an assistant that lives in a shopping app where you buy

00:08:25   supplies from Amazon?

00:08:26   I really struggle to imagine how building that assistant into the Amazon shopping app

00:08:33   makes it more pervasive, sort of like Siri.

00:08:39   The Amazon Echo can never be as integrated as Siri or the Google Assistant is on Android.

00:08:45   But I would have liked to see Amazon do something like, for example, the Astra app for iPhone,

00:08:50   which is this dedicated UI just to talk to the Amazon Echo and to the Assistant.

00:08:56   And I would have liked Amazon to sort of do their own take on that with maybe even more

00:09:00   features, because an app like Astra is built on the web service and the APIs that Amazon

00:09:05   makes available to users.

00:09:07   And so a third-party developer made an Assistant UI and shipped a third-party Assistant for

00:09:12   the Amazon Echo.

00:09:14   And Amazon could even go beyond those limitations of the API, for example they could have Spotify

00:09:18   integration and instead they chose to bundle the assistant into the shopping app where

00:09:24   people buy stuff from Amazon.

00:09:27   I really struggle to see the point, honestly.

00:09:30   What I want is an app that Amazon makes that I just open it and as soon as it's open it's

00:09:37   listening and then I just speak into it and I'm done.

00:09:42   thing about Astra is like you have to hold the button and I always forget that

00:09:46   and like I press it and then it's wrong like I just want to like press an echo

00:09:52   or assistant application from Amazon and then I just talk into it and it does

00:09:58   what I need it to do you know same I want I think this is a good first step

00:10:02   like it's they are getting on the platform and and maybe they're seeing

00:10:05   you know how it could work if they can scale it up because the the one thing

00:10:10   that I think about that I don't know if we've talked about in detail is if they

00:10:12   just release an echo app that you can talk into that that could vastly broaden

00:10:20   the footprint of the platform right that all of a sudden instead of just the I

00:10:23   don't know how many people have bought an Amazon tube but it's way fewer people

00:10:28   than bought an iPhone and who would potentially discover this app and so

00:10:31   maybe this is a little bit of a Trojan horse like get it out there see what

00:10:34   people think see if we can scale it of course Amazon could scale it because

00:10:37   that's literally what Amazon does. But you know maybe this is a ramp into

00:10:42   something bigger which I'd be all for and I totally agree with you Myke and

00:10:45   now that I can just open and it listens to me it would be ideal. There's an

00:10:49   argument to be made about building a feature into a product that a lot of

00:10:54   people already use and if you follow that kind of thinking it makes sense to

00:10:59   put the intelligence and the assistant into the the Amazon app that millions of

00:11:04   people use every day. But there's also a counter argument to that, which is people

00:11:09   expect to find a certain feature in the place that makes the most sense.

00:11:13   For example, let's imagine that Apple is struggling to get people to use

00:11:17   reminders, or that people don't use iCloud Drive. Well now, great news!

00:11:21   You can manage your files inside iMessage. But is there really

00:11:26   the point? Does it really make that better, or does it only introduce

00:11:29   confusion? I mean, it's great that you're building a feature into an app

00:11:33   that a lot of people already use. But if it doesn't make a lot of sense, if it's not a good fit,

00:11:39   I think you're not solving the main problem, which is you need to have a native experience on the iPhone.

00:11:45   And when I'm shopping with Amazon, I don't want to talk to my assistant, I just want to, you know,

00:11:50   I don't want to control my lights from the app that I use to buy t-shirts. I just, you know,

00:11:55   I would like to have a dedicated UI for the assistant. And so even if it sort of makes sense in theory,

00:12:00   I can imagine this meeting with a bunch of Amazon managers

00:12:03   and be like, "Hey guys, we need to have the assistant

00:12:05   on the iPhone, what are we gonna do?"

00:12:06   And there's a guy that raises his hand and is like,

00:12:08   "I have a great idea, let's make it so the people,

00:12:11   when they're buying Christmas gifts,

00:12:13   they can also talk to the assistant."

00:12:15   The managers be like, "Great idea, we'll do that."

00:12:18   I don't think it's a good fit.

00:12:21   - We had a really interesting email from listener John

00:12:25   and John seems like he's like the two of you,

00:12:28   he says he has a 12.9 inch iPad Pro for work,

00:12:31   but he uses an iPad Mini sort of as his consumption iPad.

00:12:35   So for e-reading and comics and video

00:12:38   and that sort of thing.

00:12:39   And my sense is John uses his 12.9 as like a work computer

00:12:43   and this Mini for like a personal computer

00:12:45   and doesn't really want to mix those things,

00:12:47   which I can appreciate.

00:12:49   He much prefers it over the Kindle for reading.

00:12:51   And this comes on the heels of last week's event

00:12:55   where the iPad Mini 4 did not get an update.

00:12:58   So it is still on the A8 CPU, whereas the iPad uses the A9,

00:13:02   and the iPad Pros are on the A9X.

00:13:06   The only option now is 128 gigs for $399.

00:13:10   And if you compare that to the new iPad fifth generation,

00:13:14   128 gig in that model is $429.

00:13:17   So it is a little bit cheaper when

00:13:20   you are doing a direct comparison, but not by much.

00:13:23   But this comes after a--

00:13:27   this fits into the iPad Mini lifecycle,

00:13:29   is what I'm trying to get to.

00:13:30   The iPad Mini 3 was just the 2 with Touch ID.

00:13:33   It was literally the same machine, just with Touch ID.

00:13:37   And now the Mini 4 looks like it's going to stick around

00:13:41   for a while longer.

00:13:43   And I guess the question, I want to know what you guys think.

00:13:46   Is the iPad Mini going away?

00:13:48   Is it just on a really slow refresh cycle,

00:13:51   and maybe in the fall or maybe next year we'll see an iPad Mini 5? Or is this the end of the road?

00:13:58   I think with the new iPad especially, as the price is going down and the new iPad is not

00:14:02   as large as the iPad Pro, I think there's even less of an argument in favor of an iPad Mini.

00:14:07   And I think over time it's just inevitable that more people who don't want an iPad Pro will move

00:14:12   on to the budget 9.7 and so you know between the big iPhone and the 9.7 inch

00:14:20   iPad becoming less approachable for all customers I struggle to see

00:14:25   the place for the iPad mini. That was true before, it's even more true now that

00:14:29   Apple has an even cheaper and affordable iPad. The other side of this that makes

00:14:36   me wonder if maybe I'm wrong is what if Apple starts moving away from the big

00:14:42   and they do this iPhone 8 that is smaller than the iPhone Plus but that has a big screen in a smaller form factor.

00:14:49   Maybe at that point it sort of creates a new gap between the new iPhone and the 9.7" iPad.

00:14:56   So maybe in the future there will be a place for the iPad Mini. Right now I'm struggling,

00:15:00   because between the iPhone 7 Plus and the 9.7" iPad, which is even cheaper,

00:15:06   even cheaper. I don't know what the place for the iPad mini is, but maybe in the

00:15:11   future as the lineup changes, especially on the iPhone, maybe there will be an opportunity.

00:15:16   Yeah, I think that we've hit the end of the road for the mini. I think this will be the last one.

00:15:20   I see what you're saying about the phone, but I think we'll only have that one size for one year,

00:15:25   and then the next revision there will be two and there will be a bigger one.

00:15:29   Right? There will be a phone which is maybe as big as the Plus now, but with an even bigger screen, right?

00:15:35   - That'd be amazing.

00:15:37   - Which is where I expect that it will go

00:15:38   'cause I don't think that Apple will keep

00:15:41   these different phone lines for a while.

00:15:44   That doesn't sit with me.

00:15:46   I feel like we're only gonna get this bifurcated

00:15:49   iPhone line this time or maybe this revision,

00:15:53   whether it's two years or whatever,

00:15:55   because they just can't make this magical phone

00:15:59   at the scale that they would want,

00:16:00   at the price that they would want.

00:16:02   Like, so they would offer it for everyone.

00:16:04   But yeah, if they do do that, right,

00:16:06   like if they do end up with like two iPhone lines,

00:16:09   one is like mega amazing and small and big

00:16:11   all at the same time like the TARDIS,

00:16:13   maybe they would do something with the iPad Mini,

00:16:15   but I think that what they've done with the iPad Mini

00:16:19   in cutting off all of the cheaper models

00:16:21   and just selling the big storage expensive one

00:16:25   for more money than the current iPad,

00:16:28   to me that screams end of the line.

00:16:31   Like it just seems strange, like why would you bump,

00:16:34   Why would you go 128?

00:16:36   That just seems like a really peculiar choice.

00:16:38   Like at least middle of the road.

00:16:39   - That's really weird.

00:16:40   Yeah, that's the part of this that I really don't understand

00:16:44   because they could, you know, you could make

00:16:47   a 32 gigabyte iPad mini and I mean, what would it be?

00:16:50   Could it be 299?

00:16:51   Like, I think they're positioning this new 9.7,

00:16:54   like Federico said, to be the budget iPad.

00:16:57   And the mini, maybe there's a premium for its size, right?

00:17:01   That hey, if you want this sort of specialty product,

00:17:03   which a lot of people do like the Mini.

00:17:05   Like John was not the only one to email us saying,

00:17:07   I've got the iPad Mini and I'm sad that it's going,

00:17:09   you know, could be going away.

00:17:10   What I do kind of wonder, and I could see a world in which,

00:17:15   you know, say we're a year from now,

00:17:18   and the iPad Pro is 10.5 and 12.9 inches,

00:17:21   they both have the, you know, the higher resolution display,

00:17:25   and that's the iPad Pro family.

00:17:27   And in the iPad family, you have a 7.9,

00:17:31   formerly the Mini, and you have the 9.7.

00:17:33   And I could see that being, like,

00:17:36   in some ways that would be the most clear iPad lineup

00:17:41   we've had in a long time, right?

00:17:43   Like you have Pro family, there's two models,

00:17:46   big and little, and you have a regular,

00:17:48   you know, consumer iPad line, two sizes, big and little.

00:17:51   So I could see the Mini surviving

00:17:53   if that is their game plan,

00:17:55   and I think it's a pretty good game plan.

00:17:57   But right now, if this is a transition,

00:18:01   then the mini is just awkward right now

00:18:03   because there's only one option.

00:18:05   It's 128 gigs.

00:18:07   It's expensive.

00:18:08   So I just don't know.

00:18:11   I don't know what the long game is,

00:18:15   but I kinda like this idea of having two families.

00:18:19   - I think the question we should consider now

00:18:22   is how much this new possible rumored approach

00:18:27   of going bezel-less and edge-to-edge is going to change our relationship with screen sizes.

00:18:34   Because if every Apple device, so if the iPhone, the big and small one, and if the iPads even,

00:18:40   go edge-to-edge, how much can an iPad 9.7 with an edge-to-edge display be as portable

00:18:48   as an iPad Mini?

00:18:49   Because I was talking to someone recently, and this person really wanted to buy an iPad

00:18:53   Mini.

00:18:54   I was like, "Why do you want to buy an iPad Mini and just get a new iPad?"

00:18:57   they just updated it, it's even better and it's even cheaper. And this person said, because

00:19:01   still I think the iPad mini is more portable and because I can grab it with one hand and walk around

00:19:06   the house, watch a movie, it doesn't weight much, and it's still a bigger screen than my iPhone 7 Plus.

00:19:12   But I wonder if going edge to edge will sort of shift our relationship with the screen sizes

00:19:20   and how much Apple is going to change the entire lineup once you don't have these bezels anymore.

00:19:26   So that's interesting to me.

00:19:29   Yeah, I wonder too, like if the design seems to be what's happening.

00:19:36   I mean there's so much smoke around that rumor.

00:19:38   And I wonder if for the foreseeable future that is just a iPad Pro feature and this new

00:19:45   9.7, which is basically an updated iPad Air, as a lot of people have talked about this

00:19:49   week.

00:19:50   It's not really an Air 2, it's the iPad Air updated.

00:19:54   maybe that stays in that, you know, bezel, you know, that current form factor for

00:19:59   the foreseeable future. You know, if you look at something like the MacBook Air,

00:20:03   you know, Apple, that second generation was, you know, sort of Apple's cheap

00:20:07   notebook, kind of the default notebook for a lot of people. The design has stayed

00:20:11   the same. They haven't really done anything to it. Like, I could see this

00:20:14   case design lasting a long time in this consumer space, you know. The consumer

00:20:22   iPads don't get turned over very often as we've talked about at length, right?

00:20:25   The refresh cycle for an end user is very long and so maybe it's not

00:20:31   important to radically change that case very often and instead use that design

00:20:36   to further distinguish between the two. If you want a pro it looks like this,

00:20:40   like the MacBook Pro and the MacBook Air look different. The iPad Pro looks

00:20:44   different, has this awesome bezel display and you know you get a bigger

00:20:48   screen in there and it's visually really different than the regular iPad and then if the mini

00:20:53   sticks around.

00:20:54   I could see even that being in favor of the separation of the two lines.

00:21:00   And something I think that could work for them, you know, this is, Apple has used design

00:21:06   as a feature, right, as a selling point for years and years, way back to all these colored

00:21:12   computers in my office, right, that if you want the graphite you gotta pay more because

00:21:15   it's the special edition or if you want the black MacBook you got to pay a little bit

00:21:18   more you get a bigger hard drive but totally not worth it but it looks cool so you're going

00:21:21   to pay it like that could be a thing here as well.

00:21:25   This week's episode is brought to you by Encapsula the multifunction content delivery network

00:21:31   that not only boosts the performance of your website but also protects it from denial of

00:21:34   service attacks while it's also securing it from bad guys ensuring high availability.

00:21:40   All you have to do is make a small change to your DNS and you will be able to activate

00:21:45   Encapsula for your site.

00:21:47   You don't need to install any hardware or software, it is ready to go as soon as you

00:21:51   are.

00:21:52   Then when you do, you will have access to Encapsula's global network of 30 data centers

00:21:57   which have 3 terabits of bandwidth at hand.

00:22:00   This network stops attack traffic, making sure that denial of service attacks never

00:22:04   hit your servers whilst also caching your content and optimising connections using their

00:22:09   powerful CDN so your users get your content lightning fast. You'll be able to see it

00:22:14   all working on Encapsular's dashboard where you get a live traffic view of your site with

00:22:18   the ability to also create custom rules to meet your exact needs.

00:22:23   As a listener of connected all you need to do is go to Encapsular.com/connected. This

00:22:31   is where you'll find out more about their service and also claim a whole month of service

00:22:35   for free just because you're a listener of this show. That's Encapsular.com/Connected.

00:22:40   Thank you so much to Encapsular for their support of Connected and Relay FM.

00:22:46   All right, we're still in, well, this is a follow up slash topic zero. I labeled a topic

00:22:53   zero so the two of you wouldn't freak out in the document. But I spent a little time

00:22:58   with the product red iPhone. There'll be a link to a photo on Instagram I took of it.

00:23:04   And I have some impressions because that's what you do, right?

00:23:07   You do impressions.

00:23:09   First look.

00:23:10   First look.

00:23:11   Exclusive.

00:23:12   By exclusive I meant I drove 20 minutes to the Apple Store.

00:23:14   It's exclusive to this show.

00:23:17   It is exclusive to this show.

00:23:19   So I had a lot of questions from people saying, "What does it feel like?"

00:23:24   So I own the matte black iPhone 7 Plus.

00:23:27   I did not opt for the jet black.

00:23:31   And this feels just like the matte black.

00:23:33   So it is, it has that same texture, you know, it's smooth, the touch is not nearly as grippy

00:23:39   as the jet black.

00:23:40   It feels like anodized aluminum, it feels like the other phones.

00:23:45   And the color though, the color is amazing.

00:23:48   It's actually hard to do it justice in photos, and that's just an iPhone photo, but it is

00:23:53   extremely saturated.

00:23:56   It looks like, instead of being anodized red, because really that red doesn't go very deep

00:24:00   right, like if you scratch it, there's silver underneath.

00:24:02   it feels like the metal is red, like it feels like it's made out of something

00:24:05   red. It's extremely saturated, extremely evenly done, and it is, so I compared it

00:24:11   with a red iPod Touch and it is slightly darker and kind of like a more vibrant

00:24:16   red. It's really nice. It does say product red on the back, you can see that in the

00:24:21   in the photo, the little product red, you know, with brackets on it. I'm curious if

00:24:26   if the China edition of this has that that branding because Apple you know

00:24:32   there was the website not having the logo and so yeah that the phone doesn't

00:24:37   either yeah the phone doesn't it's still red and apparently they're still to

00:24:40   confirm that they're still giving the money but this doesn't have the branding

00:24:46   on it and apparently I don't know enough about this I'll find some links to put

00:24:50   in the show notes but apparently this is like a pretty touchy thing in China yeah

00:24:55   So there's that. But here everywhere else it says product red. As to be

00:25:00   expected the iPods had that logo on the back as well. There's been a lot of

00:25:04   conversation about the Touch ID sensor, the ring around it being silver and I'm

00:25:12   gonna be the contrarian here because I think both of you wish it were red.

00:25:16   I think it totally works because the Apple logo on the back is the same

00:25:20   silver and it would as you turn the phone over it feels very cohesive and I

00:25:25   I think that the red would just be too high contrast.

00:25:28   I think it would be, I think, just my opinion,

00:25:30   is that it'd be a little jarring.

00:25:31   So for me, the silver ring totally works.

00:25:33   There was a comment somewhere,

00:25:38   I saw it in a YouTube review somewhere,

00:25:40   maybe MKBHD had it, where the little mute,

00:25:44   so if you had the mute ringer little switch

00:25:48   on the side of the phone,

00:25:50   on the other phones, like on my matte black phone,

00:25:53   if you have it to mute and you look at the button,

00:25:55   there's a little orange line screened on there

00:25:57   so you can kind of visually see if it's muted or not.

00:26:00   And on this phone, that line is white.

00:26:02   So you can really see it, it really pops out.

00:26:04   It's like just a really nice little feature

00:26:06   that sort of jumped out at me.

00:26:07   But there has been a ton of conversation

00:26:11   about the front of it, right?

00:26:13   A lot of people wish the front were the black cover glass

00:26:17   instead of white.

00:26:18   I will start this conversation by saying

00:26:21   I buy black iPhones because I don't like the white face.

00:26:24   I like that when the phone is off it's kind of hard to tell what's what and I don't care for the white front.

00:26:28   But this one's white and it does look a little Christmasy.

00:26:32   It looks a little bit like a candy cane, you know the whole red and white holiday theme, but I think it looks clean.

00:26:38   I think it looks nice. I don't mind it in person.

00:26:40   But there is a an article of MacRumors a couple of people on YouTube have basically

00:26:48   merged phones and so this one video this guy took a jet black phone and

00:26:53   and basically took the guts out of it and put it in a red case.

00:26:56   You have to keep the... The problem with it is the Touch ID sensor is tied to the logic board.

00:27:01   If those product numbers mismatch, the Touch ID doesn't work and the Home button doesn't work.

00:27:08   So you have to like, replace the logic board too. Like, do not do this.

00:27:11   I mean, you're spending like two grand to make this happen.

00:27:14   But I do have to say, it looks pretty good.

00:27:18   It looks much better to me than the red and white.

00:27:21   I'm gonna be that guy, like I don't like either white or black.

00:27:24   I think I should just go all red, like just go all red.

00:27:28   Like why does it have to be white or black? Why not all red?

00:27:32   That would look terrible.

00:27:32   No it wouldn't, why would it look terrible?

00:27:34   It would look terrible.

00:27:35   No it wouldn't.

00:27:36   This is the problem with having bezels.

00:27:38   You need to make decisions from the front and the back.

00:27:41   Exactly.

00:27:42   This is how you sort out this problem, just get rid of all the bezels.

00:27:44   Come on, what's wrong with you?

00:27:46   I mean, personally, I've always preferred the red and black combo in anything,

00:27:51   whether it's a piece of clothing or an accessory.

00:27:54   I think the Beats headphones, for example, red and black, they look awesome.

00:27:57   It looks to me like the red and white, like the Where's Waldo phone.

00:28:04   I guess Apple had some white iPhones left in stock,

00:28:10   so maybe the best way to do it is to get a new color for the back.

00:28:14   I wouldn't do what the guy on the YouTube video did, it looks crazy.

00:28:20   But I gotta say I'm looking at this black and red phone and it looks awesome to me.

00:28:23   I wish Apple had such option. And when I showed it to Sylvia,

00:28:27   and I mentioned Sylvia because she has much better taste than me,

00:28:32   when it comes to colors and stuff, and showed the red back,

00:28:36   I was like "Hey, Apple has a red iPhone." She was like "Cool, that's awesome."

00:28:39   And then I said "But it's got a white front." And she gave a double thumbs down.

00:28:44   So I would have loved to see what the guy on YouTube did.

00:28:50   But of course, don't buy two iPhones just to create a Frankenstein mix.

00:28:55   Don't do it. It's crazy.

00:28:57   Yeah. I did have an interesting conversation this weekend with somebody who I know out in real life,

00:29:02   and they know I do tech stuff. I'm not sure they know exactly, but they know that I do tech stuff.

00:29:07   And they had seen some story somewhere about this product, Red iPhone.

00:29:12   And they are on, I think he said he's on an iPhone 6.

00:29:15   And was like, "Hey, is this worth upgrading to at this point?"

00:29:19   He really the red really spoke to him and I was surprised like a that this story broke out of tech circles because it's just another

00:29:26   color, right? It's kind of

00:29:28   Easy, I think for some of us to be like, you know, this this is not really a thing

00:29:32   but people do care about this stuff and

00:29:35   You know, so I had a way those options with him like, you know, it's mid-cycle

00:29:39   But you know next year like probably have the 7s and this other expensive phone

00:29:44   So how much money do you want to spend and I think he's gonna do it

00:29:47   Like this is someone who keeps an iPhone, you know for the whole contract period, you know, two years or whatever and

00:29:52   going from a six to a seven is still a great update and

00:29:56   He was interested in the plus. I think I'm trying to talk him into that

00:30:00   So there's nothing to say that there will be another red phone

00:30:03   So like if red is that thing you should do it, right?

00:30:07   Like it if like you're in that situation right where you're like, okay, it's nearly upgrade time

00:30:12   If you know that September there might be a new phone,

00:30:15   but the new one, the new new one,

00:30:17   might be out of what you want to spend,

00:30:20   and you really like red, like that's your thing,

00:30:23   then you know.

00:30:24   - Do it. - Do it.

00:30:25   Like you just know that you'll be waiting again

00:30:27   another couple of years, and then by then,

00:30:29   the new new phone you might be able to get

00:30:31   'cause it'll be cheaper, so if red is your deal,

00:30:34   then get it because it's also charity

00:30:35   and that's awesome and yeah.

00:30:38   - Yeah.

00:30:39   So it's a yeah that's an interesting point and you know it we've Jason upgrade

00:30:46   is talking about this for a long time you know that he wants to see more colors

00:30:49   in the iPhone line this was a huge thing in iPod world right every year there'd

00:30:54   be new nanos and there'd be new colors and they do this now with the watch

00:30:57   bands and it's exciting to see them slowly do it with the iPhone and I think

00:31:01   that it is it's obviously different in the 5c right that was a cheap phone it

00:31:05   cheaper phone. It was a year old phone in a new case. It was kind of like

00:31:11   super weird in a bunch of ways, but the people who bought the 5C, there weren't

00:31:15   many of them, but they really liked them and they got to choose a color and

00:31:17   bringing this to the the sort of mainstream iPhone is something I wish

00:31:22   Apple would do more of, honestly. So, you guys want to talk about updates?

00:31:27   Everyone's favorite topic? Updates? Software updates? Let's talk about updates.

00:31:31   Alright so yesterday, Monday the 27th was update day so Apple released iOS 10.3

00:31:40   Mac OS Sierra 10.12.4, watch OS 3.2 and a bunch of iWork stuff so I'll

00:31:49   start with the Mac and then we can move on to the the other more interesting

00:31:53   things. Night shift is available on the Mac so this has come from iOS 9.3 it's

00:31:59   finally made it a year later to the Mac. I read a blog post yesterday comparing it to

00:32:05   Flux. Depending on what you want, Flux is still like, obviously it's like the more power

00:32:12   user features. Like the thing that I really like on Flux is I can be running it so my

00:32:15   screen is warmer and then I tab over to Photoshop and it cools back down so if I'm working on

00:32:20   photos it doesn't interfere. As you might imagine, Night Shift doesn't offer anything

00:32:25   like that but other than that they're very similar so you can set a schedule

00:32:30   you can set how warm it wants to be so I have mine just sunset to sunrise to

00:32:34   have it on iOS it works fine for me but so now shift is there you can go check

00:32:40   it out really the only other features a touch bar support for the App Store so

00:32:45   you know all the times you're in the Mac App Store you have touch bar support

00:32:50   Siri knows about cricket scores now I have no idea why this takes an OS update

00:32:55   - Cricket's a really complex sport, man.

00:32:58   - Well, you know, okay.

00:33:00   - There's a lot of rules, you know.

00:33:01   They have to really like nail that into CoreOS.

00:33:03   - Siri's not playing cricket.

00:33:05   You cannot do cricket in the cloud, man.

00:33:08   Come on, that's just crazy talk.

00:33:10   - That's true.

00:33:11   You need an iOS device to do cricket, you know?

00:33:14   - This should be something,

00:33:16   Apple should just be rolling out Siri stuff all the time.

00:33:18   Like, why is it tied to a Windows update?

00:33:21   - I don't think it is.

00:33:22   Like, I think they just do that.

00:33:22   - It is, it was in the release notes.

00:33:25   - Yeah, I know that they said that, right?

00:33:29   But I don't think that that's the case.

00:33:30   This is just when they chose to update it.

00:33:32   - Maybe.

00:33:33   They've done other stuff tied to updates.

00:33:36   Anyways, and finally, a bunch of fixes for PDF stuff.

00:33:40   The PDF subsystem in Sierra has been really buggy,

00:33:45   which is problematic for lots of reasons.

00:33:47   That seems to be better in 10.12.4.

00:33:50   Mail.app got some stuff.

00:33:51   There's some stability issues there.

00:33:52   I mean all in all it's a point release for the Mac, right? Night shift is the big thing here

00:33:57   and uh... that's fine.

00:34:00   So Federico, can you tell us about iOS 10.3?

00:34:03   So the big news in 10.3,

00:34:06   from a

00:34:07   consumer perspective I guess it's the addition of Find My AirPods.

00:34:11   So now in the Find My iPhone app, which needs to be renamed by the way because it

00:34:15   does much more than find your iPhone. Find my stuff. Find my devices. Find the things I spend

00:34:21   a lot of money on app. Now you can find AirPods and they're visualized on a map. You can actually

00:34:26   play sound effects on both so you get this little sound effect that goes up in volume

00:34:33   until you find the AirPods and it's nice. We were talking about Apple needs to have a solution

00:34:39   to help people who misplace the AirPods find them again. I'm not sure people are actually losing

00:34:46   AirPods as much as we worried they would, especially because you spend a lot of money

00:34:51   for these things and you actually care about them and you pay attention to how you use them.

00:34:55   But still, it's a nice addition. The thing is, it might not be happening a lot,

00:34:59   but they are infinitely more loseable than the previous headphones I used.

00:35:03   They potentially are. And I gotta say, once I fell asleep with my AirPods and

00:35:09   I couldn't find them again in the morning. And they were tucked somewhere between my sheets and

00:35:16   and I just couldn't find them. Luckily they still had some battery left.

00:35:21   And I used the Find My AirPods app in the 10.3 Beta to play the sound effect,

00:35:26   and sure enough I did find them. So that was convenient.

00:35:29   So if you're the type of person who tends to lose AirPods,

00:35:34   it's just fine to have the option, I guess.

00:35:38   And it's nicely done, it's very nicely integrated with the rest of the app.

00:35:41   Beats in the streets, AirPod in the sheets.

00:35:44   Yes, exactly. I actually don't go around with the beats anymore, but yes, that's very funny.

00:35:50   Thank you very much. I don't know how funny a joke is if you say that afterwards, but I'm sure somebody appreciated it.

00:35:56   Now, from a developer perspective, this is the big change on the App Store.

00:36:01   Now developers can reply to customer reviews on their apps. At this point, they can do so from iTunes Connect.

00:36:07   So if you're a developer, you log into iTunes Connect, you look at your reviews for your apps,

00:36:12   for your apps and now there's a reply button to reply to a person.

00:36:15   Apple has posted some guidelines on how to manage your relationship with customers

00:36:22   publicly on the App Store, the kind of tone that Apple recommends you use

00:36:27   and the approach that you take. For example, Apple says if you have a lot of reviews,

00:36:32   maybe first you should start from the negative ones and reply to people who have problems

00:36:37   and issues with your app and then move on to the more congratulatory ones.

00:36:41   That's good advice.

00:36:43   That is actually good advice.

00:36:45   Maybe if there's someone with a one-star review saying your app is broken, you stole my money,

00:36:49   maybe you should start from that.

00:36:51   Also, I just saw on Twitter, if you're a customer who leaves your reviews at the opposite end

00:36:57   and a developer replies to you, you get an email notification saying,

00:37:01   "Well, the developer replied to your apps or review saying this and this."

00:37:05   That's nice.

00:37:06   How is this not in the iTunes Connect iOS app?

00:37:09   Exactly. I saw some developers saying "well, we really need a better way to respond to reviews from the iPhone"

00:37:14   And I'm pretty sure eventually, you know, and I say eventually, Apple will update the iTunes Connect

00:37:19   iOS app to let developers respond from that instead of having to log into the iTunes Connect website

00:37:24   Which everyone knows can be fairly terrible, especially on iOS

00:37:28   I think this is so far, and Apple, I should say, they're holding

00:37:34   most of the developer reviews for quote-unquote "approval"

00:37:39   So I guess there's some people at Apple looking at what developers write,

00:37:45   because there's some developers who really cannot take negative feedback.

00:37:49   We see these emails privately on our end. There are some developers who don't like any formal criticism.

00:37:57   So I guess Apple wants to make sure that there's no profanity in there, that everything is safe and sound for the App Store.

00:38:04   That said, I think it's an awesome change. I think it has the potential to change how both customers and developers approach reviews.

00:38:13   Because if you're a customer and you tend to be that kind of person, I spend 99 cents now, I should completely lash out this guy who made an app that doesn't work and doesn't do what I like.

00:38:22   Now that you know the developer can respond to you, maybe you'll try to be a little more constructive, I guess.

00:38:27   From the developer point of view, having a new avenue to being able to reach out to customers and try to fix issues,

00:38:34   it creates a lot of changes in terms of how you do technical support, for example.

00:38:38   Now you have a public venue where people can read.

00:38:41   For example, if there's some part of the interface that some people don't understand, now you can explain that publicly.

00:38:47   I think overall it has the potential to be a great change, and I'm really curious to see how, months from now,

00:38:53   if it'll shift the behavior for both users and developers on the App Store.

00:38:57   I haven't seen any anywhere, right? I've been poking around and I can't find any on the App Store.

00:39:03   I know that people are replying and stuff like that, and I wonder what this kind of review process is.

00:39:10   Are they always going to be doing this? This is going to be some of the stuff that I guess just shakes out over time.

00:39:14   As for other changes, the Settings app has been updated with the new profile screen.

00:39:22   Now you have all of these details about your iCall account, Apple ID, all of your security information.

00:39:30   There's a single screen at the top of the settings, you can tap in, you see your profile picture, you see all of your most important stuff all in one page.

00:39:38   which is great, and I saw some screenshots from people who don't have two-factor authentication enabled.

00:39:43   Actually, Apple is using this screen to promote switching to two-factor authentication, which is nice,

00:39:48   because the more secure we are, the better, especially with these times.

00:39:51   There's a new file system, and

00:39:55   now I don't want to talk about a file system because I don't have the knowledge.

00:39:59   My basic understanding, and maybe Steven can sort of confirm this, is that the Apple file system, APFS,

00:40:06   It's been a huge undertaking from a technical perspective because Apple of course just changed,

00:40:13   virtually overnight, tens of millions of iOS devices to a new file system without any major issues.

00:40:20   And this new file system brings in faster copy operations, for example.

00:40:28   It makes it faster to delete files from the file system.

00:40:32   system but at this point I really I haven't looked into this I never

00:40:36   actually understood quite well what file systems do it just that kind of thing

00:40:41   that you know it makes for good conversation it's like hey you know you

00:40:43   got a new file system and the other person's like yeah yeah it's pretty

00:40:47   cool but nobody actually knows what it's about yeah unless you're John's your case

00:40:53   but you know we're not. My guess is it will be more impactful on the Mac you

00:40:59   because things like snapshots and those other things like all that iOS is really

00:41:03   hidden away and some of the features don't really matter when you can't

00:41:07   access the file system right like something like time machine could be

00:41:11   drastically different at some point the future under APFS due to you know the

00:41:16   snapshotting stuff and you know you're not producing things right on on your

00:41:22   iPhone or iPad but people do that on the Mac and so I think for iOS it's just

00:41:27   you know, moving it onto a modern foundation that is hopefully more stable. Seems to be faster,

00:41:33   as some people have reported, but I think most people will never know. Like, "Oh, this update

00:41:39   took a little bit longer," and they go about the way—which is how it should be, right? Like,

00:41:43   you shouldn't be, like, aware that your file system is turning over. Like, that's something

00:41:46   that people just don't need to know or definitely don't understand. So, I'm glad it went well. I

00:41:53   I mean, that's seriously a huge deal.

00:41:56   I haven't seen a single report of people's iOS devices exploding.

00:42:00   Breaking their phones, yeah.

00:42:02   Right, it's incredible.

00:42:04   That is an incredible task that they've pulled off.

00:42:06   And the Mac will follow suit,

00:42:08   assuming with Mac OS 10.13 this fall.

00:42:12   And I think that's where we'll really see it make a difference.

00:42:15   I almost wish there was a Mr. Robot-like TV show,

00:42:20   But instead of hacking, it's about switching the button to enable the new file system for millions of people.

00:42:27   You know, with the drama, and there's like an engineer who plays Mr. File System,

00:42:32   and then he needs to flip the button.

00:42:34   That's super fascinating, and I wish it was dramatized.

00:42:36   But of course, this will never happen.

00:42:38   Still, these are the things I think about.

00:42:43   Anyway, what about WatchOS?

00:42:47   Yeah, so watchOS is here. It's got Siri kit support for third-party apps.

00:42:51   I never use this. In fact, I thought it was already there.

00:42:54   I was like, "Oh, they didn't have this? Weird."

00:42:56   So there's that.

00:42:59   Really, the user-facing feature is theater mode.

00:43:02   So if you enable this, it's in control center.

00:43:04   It's a little set of faces, and you tap them.

00:43:08   And if your watch is in this mode, and you turn your wrist over,

00:43:12   the screen will not wake up.

00:43:14   The screen will only wake up if you tap the watch or turn the digital crown.

00:43:19   For me, I don't really care about that in a movie.

00:43:21   It'll be nice.

00:43:22   But I think where this is going to be really interesting is if you're using a sleep tracking

00:43:28   app.

00:43:29   So if you turn over in the middle of the night and your watch wakes up, even if you have

00:43:31   the brightness all the way down.

00:43:32   Oh, that's a good idea.

00:43:34   And you have a watch face that's like nothing on it.

00:43:37   It's just the time and it's red or something.

00:43:39   It still is light.

00:43:40   for me at least it could still wake me up or you know wake my spouse up and so

00:43:44   to have my watch not come on unless I tap it or turn the crown it's gonna be

00:43:49   great at night so from Apple calls it theater mode I'm thinking about this as

00:43:54   sleepy time mode. That's a better name. You don't wanna you don't want to be

00:43:59   woken by the all the all the nits of the Apple watch display. No. So many nits.

00:44:07   Alright, we're obviously going to talk about workflow, right?

00:44:10   Are we?

00:44:11   We're obviously going to do that.

00:44:13   I assume that there are people in the audience right now out there in podcast listening land

00:44:18   who are like, "Have I tuned into the wrong show?

00:44:21   Am I on the wrong week?"

00:44:22   No, we're going to talk about workflow, don't worry.

00:44:24   But before we do, let me take a moment to thank Eero for supporting this week's show.

00:44:30   Why do you need Eero?

00:44:31   Let me tell you why.

00:44:32   It's because everything in your house connects to the internet now.

00:44:36   Everything.

00:44:37   Who would have thought that our lamps would need to connect to the internet?

00:44:40   Well, this is becoming more and more of a thing in our homes.

00:44:43   Wi-Fi is the glue that holds all of this stuff together.

00:44:47   We talk so much about home automation on this show and like the house of the future

00:44:52   and all that sort of stuff.

00:44:52   Well, all of this needs Wi-Fi, even if you just want to binge Seinfeld,

00:44:56   which I'm doing now, by the way, Federico, you inspired me.

00:44:59   And now I'm watching Seinfeld again.

00:45:01   So that's good.

00:45:02   I'm enjoying that.

00:45:02   So we're doing that.

00:45:05   But we need Wi-Fi for it.

00:45:06   The thing about Wi-Fi is that connections can be inconsistent, slow and unresponsive

00:45:11   at home.

00:45:12   To get the best possible connection you need a distributed system.

00:45:16   So you're able to get connection all over the house.

00:45:20   Previously this would be expensive to do or just not very great.

00:45:23   You might get a bunch of extenders and it's all different network names and you don't

00:45:26   want any of that.

00:45:27   You want Eero.

00:45:28   With Eero you can install an enterprise grade Wi-Fi system in your home in just a few minutes.

00:45:34   This isn't a simple extender.

00:45:36   Each Eero has two radios inside.

00:45:37   It keeps your connection fast and everything in sync, all on that one network name.

00:45:42   You then have the app, which you can have on iOS or Android, that will walk you through

00:45:46   each step of the setup process.

00:45:48   It's quick, easy and painless and then that app will let you manage your network from

00:45:51   the palm of your hand.

00:45:52   You'll be able to tell how many devices are connected at a certain time and also the internet

00:45:56   speed that you're getting from your service provider.

00:45:59   What I really like about the Eero is that they look nice.

00:46:01   They're these nice little white devices.

00:46:03   It's like the school of nice industrial design that Apple pioneered.

00:46:08   An Eero is in that.

00:46:09   They just need little devices.

00:46:11   They're not like these huge things with a bunch of antennas sticking out of the side

00:46:15   of them.

00:46:16   They're just these nice little white pucks and you can put them around your home.

00:46:19   And they don't take up much space and you can just have them blend in.

00:46:22   Very nice, very nice indeed.

00:46:24   The average house in the US is easily covered by between two or three Eeros.

00:46:27   So a three pack is a good starting point.

00:46:29   but if you live in a large space and need more you can add up to 10 in total if you live in

00:46:34   some kind of wifi enabled mansion. Because of their 30 day money back guarantee you can always

00:46:39   return one of the Eros in the pack if you want and you'll get the money back if you don't need it.

00:46:44   Ero is the original whole home wifi system and to celebrate its first birthday they have lowered the

00:46:49   price for everyone. You can now get an Ero 3 pack for $3.99 which is $100 off the previous price

00:46:55   or a two pack for $2.99 which is $50 off and you can get Eero at this lower price everywhere at

00:47:00   Eero.com best buy or Amazon however you want to buy it you're going to benefit from that great

00:47:06   price thank you so much to Eero for their support of this show and Relay FM. So let me just lay out

00:47:13   the news for people who haven't heard it and then I'll let you guys get into this. Okay so last week

00:47:20   it was announced via TechCrunch that Apple had acquired Workflow. If you're not

00:47:25   familiar, the automation tool for iPad and iPhone that is, I would say, at the

00:47:30   core of basically anyone doing power user stuff on the iPad. It's pretty key.

00:47:36   It, Workflow is a separate third-party app run by a small team of developers.

00:47:43   that team and the app are now part of Apple. So the app is now free on the

00:47:50   iOS App Store. An update came out to it that killed integration with Google and

00:47:55   a couple other things. Marco Arment on ATP said that Workflow had sent out

00:48:01   agreements to developers to sign saying that they had permission to use their

00:48:06   app in Workflow and I think my assumption is that Google didn't sign it

00:48:10   for whatever reason they didn't see it, they didn't think it was important, they didn't sign it

00:48:13   because they knew what was going on. I don't, we're gonna talk about this, I

00:48:18   don't blame Apple for that. A lot of people did, I think that was a little

00:48:21   unfair, but it's different, right? And now this team and its app are part of

00:48:28   Apple and we should address the elephant in the room that this might be our fault

00:48:34   because we talked about it and I asked point blank the two of you three weeks

00:48:39   ago what would you do if workflow went away and so there's been a lot of talk

00:48:44   of the prompt curse coming back where you know we used to talk about photo

00:48:48   management services and they go out of business the next week

00:48:51   and we killed like four photo management services basically in the

00:48:54   span of like three months. I think we have to stop doing this show like or

00:48:58   just talk about things that we don't like. I know. I'm starting to think that

00:49:02   it's all Steven's fault specifically as I would like to go back and listen to

00:49:09   how many services he brought up in the first place that eventually shut down.

00:49:13   Good point.

00:49:14   So there's something about you, man.

00:49:18   You mention stuff and it gets acquired.

00:49:20   So either you have incredibly good taste and an eye for acquisitions, or you're cursed.

00:49:27   One or the other, man.

00:49:30   It's literally one or the other.

00:49:31   There's no middle ground.

00:49:32   There's no other solution.

00:49:34   No.

00:49:35   I'm either the best closet VC on the planet.

00:49:38   Yes, or I have some agent curse raining through my veins.

00:49:43   It's because you work in an Apple Macintosh burial ground.

00:49:49   That's the problem.

00:49:50   That's it.

00:49:51   Wow.

00:49:52   That's it.

00:49:53   That's what happened.

00:49:54   I just unboxed a new Mac Mini just last night someone sent me.

00:49:56   So obviously there's lots of things to talk about here.

00:50:02   And I think we could lump them into a few categories that I kind of want to work through.

00:50:08   is like you know sort of our initial response what does this mean for the

00:50:11   future of workflow what does it mean for the future of iOS and Mac OS automation

00:50:18   and what can we do to prepare for those things right if these outcomes are

00:50:24   possible how can we prepare for them and you know guarantee we can still do our

00:50:29   work the way we want to do it so Federico I know that the people have been

00:50:36   clamming. Someone has to do a special episode. Actually last week. We had a lot of people

00:50:40   that were like, "Where's the special episode?" Why would we do a special episode? This is

00:50:45   perfect topic for a regular episode. We need topics, ladies and gentlemen. And we've had

00:50:50   time to think about this, because this news broke almost a week ago, so we have had time

00:50:55   to, at least I feel calmer about it. I feel like I've had time to consider it. But Federico

00:51:00   of a teachy workflow Jedi which was you might feel calmer as well I was just

00:51:07   gonna say like before we do ask her to go I don't feel any comma like I think I

00:51:12   do I actually do I do I've been thinking about this I have a lot of thoughts of

00:51:18   course as you can imagine stuff that I've been thinking about before this

00:51:22   acquisition stuff this news broke and if you go back and read my old workflow

00:51:29   pieces, most of them, especially the big ones, tend to have the same conclusion, where I

00:51:34   wonder what's going to happen in the path towards Workflow 2.0.

00:51:39   All of them tend to focus on what the Workflow team should address.

00:51:43   And I've been thinking about Workflow now that it's been acquired, and I've started

00:51:47   putting together these thoughts.

00:51:48   I have a story that is coming out on the website, I think in a couple of days, I'm editing the

00:51:52   story now and I try to go a bit deep into the technical aspects of what Apple could and couldn't do,

00:51:59   but I think I want to focus on the message today. And I think we're at the point where this could

00:52:07   either be the best thing ever that ever happened to Workflow and the only possible outcome for the

00:52:14   future of IaaS automation for reasons that I'll get to in a minute, or it could spell the end of

00:52:19   all the crazy awesome stuff we've been doing at the end of iOS automation.

00:52:24   And just like any other acquisition, the startup tends to be folded into the main company and

00:52:30   you never hear from the founders again until it's a couple of years later, they cash in

00:52:34   and they leave the company and they do something else.

00:52:36   Those are the two outcomes.

00:52:40   I want to start with a question.

00:52:42   I want to sort of reflect on how much could a workflow grown without a direct partnership with Apple.

00:52:53   Because we see workflow, for the past two years, I think they've stood out.

00:53:00   Because they always managed to find a way to work around the limitations of iOS

00:53:06   and do crazy things that helped a lot of people like us be more productive.

00:53:11   But I have to wonder, at some point, how many workarounds are there to exploit?

00:53:17   How many things you can imagine running around Apple's limitations before the next step?

00:53:27   And I have to wonder if maybe working with Apple and making workflow a feature of iOS

00:53:35   was the only possible path that we should have considered in the first place.

00:53:38   I'm actually surprised we didn't consider Apple approaching workflow.

00:53:42   Possibly because of all the talk there's been lately about Apple not caring about productivity

00:53:46   and iOS and automation, of course.

00:53:49   We didn't consider this idea, but I want to ask you...

00:53:52   Well, I will say on that, like, I think one of the things that we were talking about a

00:53:58   couple of weeks ago, we were kind of dancing around this scenario, and my thinking was,

00:54:03   if it hasn't happened already, why would it happen?

00:54:08   When I thought about could Apple want them, it's like, well, they've shown themselves

00:54:12   to be incredible developers and engineers for a long time that if they ever wanted them,

00:54:17   they would have already wanted them.

00:54:18   That was kind of my feeling on it, but I just kind of brought it out.

00:54:24   My feeling on this is I have a theory that is based on some rumors of it and some logical

00:54:34   explanations I think. We're not gonna get any workflow stuff in iOS 11 but I

00:54:43   think Apple has been thinking about doing things similar to

00:54:51   what workflow can do right now but in an even more integrated fashion and for

00:54:58   more system apps. So I believe that in iOS 11 we'll see Apple laying the

00:55:05   groundwork for features that maybe next year will enable workflow to be a system

00:55:12   feature on iOS. And I don't know the details of what those sort of

00:55:18   groundwork could be. I have some theories could be for example a better way for

00:55:22   apps to communicate directly with each other, to be an sort of an opening up

00:55:26   of the app sandboxing model, but I feel like we're not gonna get any major

00:55:32   updates to Workflow anymore. I think we should prepare for Workflow staying on

00:55:36   the App Store without receiving any major updates. At best we will get bug

00:55:42   fixes, that's my theory, again it's not an understanding based on things

00:55:48   I've heard, it's my theory, and I believe Apple will use iOS 7 as sort of a

00:55:53   starting point to lay the groundwork for the future of workflow. And the other

00:55:59   aspect of my theory is that Apple, and again I'll go deeper in an article

00:56:05   because it's very tricky to explain on a show, but I think Apple at a fundamental

00:56:11   level, they don't like the whole idea of automation based on URL schemes. I have

00:56:19   reason to believe that one of Apple's goals with iOS 8, so we're

00:56:23   talking almost three years ago. With extensions, Apple wanted to kill off URL

00:56:29   schemes and that strategy failed because extensions are great, we love them, we use

00:56:35   them every day, but they couldn't replace URL schemes for two things. One is

00:56:41   automation, but the most important one is a way for apps to directly talk to each

00:56:46   other. I'm gonna give you an easy example. Any app that has a login screen has a

00:56:51   a 1Password button. And when you press it, in theory you would expect the 1Password interface

00:56:56   to come up, sort of like it does on a Mac. Except it's not possible on iOS, because you

00:57:01   need to go through the share sheet, because there's no way for apps to communicate directly

00:57:05   with each other. I cannot say, "Well, I'm a login screen, I choose you, 1Password, to

00:57:12   show me the logins that are available." And that's not possible with the share sheet.

00:57:17   So Apple's goal to provide extensions didn't eliminate URL schemes.

00:57:26   So you have developers still using those schemes for automation and still using them for things

00:57:30   like "I want to enable customers to switch between two apps easily".

00:57:36   And I think that Apple looked at Workflow.

00:57:40   Workflow is split in two parts.

00:57:42   There's the native actions and there's the third-party app actions.

00:57:46   And all of those app actions are based on URL schemes.

00:57:50   Those are the same URL schemes that require a contract to be signed, and all the things

00:57:55   that happened with the acquisition.

00:57:57   And I don't think Apple will ever, ever do URL scheme stuff, as Workflow currently does.

00:58:04   And again, this is my theory.

00:58:07   I believe that if Apple continues to invest on Workflow, and if Apple doesn't cripple

00:58:13   workflow, by saying "well, we're just gonna do like Automator on the Mac, you can do system

00:58:17   stuff but no third-party app things".

00:58:21   So assuming that Apple keeps workflow as a way to automate anything on your device, whether

00:58:25   it's Apple Music or Tweetbot or whatever, there's going to be a new way to do app actions.

00:58:31   And I believe that way will be based on stuff we'll see in iOS 11, there will be a new framework,

00:58:38   won't expose any URL schemes and this is the reason why Workflow eventually, you know, the

00:58:44   team settled on the idea of going to Apple because without teaming up with Apple they would eventually

00:58:49   be limited by what Workflow can do because Apple, I think, again my theory, their plan is to

00:58:56   completely deprecate URL schemes in the future and without those Workflow, you know, couldn't go

00:59:04   anywhere and so the best possible outcome for users was to sell out to

00:59:09   Apple and let's build this thing together. So a week later I feel better

00:59:14   because keeping this in mind and looking at all of these pieces, looking at

00:59:18   the path the workflow followed for the past two years, knowing that Apple

00:59:22   doesn't like URL schemes and I know this for a fact, they just hate URL schemes

00:59:26   and what users can do because they're unsafe, they're hard to discover,

00:59:31   They're just a hack, basically. Knowing that, and knowing what Workflow can do, and seeing...

00:59:38   I mean, you gotta understand that Apple isn't stupid. They have seen just how many,

00:59:44   millions of people I would say, depend on Workflow to be more productive on iOS. So if you combine

00:59:50   that, you combine your other schemes, and what Workflow wanted to build in the future, and the

00:59:55   And the idea that Apple is going to focus more on iPads, especially with iOS 11 and

01:00:00   being productive on iOS, I think it's a...

01:00:03   I don't want to say a perfect storm, but I think it's a...

01:00:06   I'm feeling pretty positive about the partnership.

01:00:09   But what is worst case scenario?

01:00:11   Because this seems like a best case scenario.

01:00:14   You've obviously thought about it.

01:00:15   What do you think is worst case?

01:00:17   The worst case...

01:00:19   And by the way, I don't think the best case is my final conclusion.

01:00:25   But the worst case is, it's going nowhere.

01:00:29   The workflow team has been acquired because they're crazy geniuses.

01:00:32   They're going to work on some framework.

01:00:34   Apple doesn't believe in automation, doesn't believe in a way to let users create their

01:00:40   own little scripts, their own little modifications to iOS.

01:00:46   And the app is going to stay on the store out of respect, sort of like a grace period.

01:00:51   But come iOS 11, iOS 11.3, iOS 12, the app is going to disappear, and Apple is going

01:00:59   to be like, "Hey, by the way, there's some great new features in iOS 11 that make it

01:01:03   possible for users to... they don't need workflow anymore."

01:01:09   And we all end up with, "The app is going to be removed, and the links to the public

01:01:13   workflows will go away."

01:01:16   That's my worst case.

01:01:18   I'm sitting somewhere in the middle. I think the Workflow app is eventually going to disappear.

01:01:25   I think there's going to be a complete Apple rewrite from the ground up.

01:01:29   Call it Workflow 2, Call it Apple Workflow, Call it Automator, there's going to be a new app.

01:01:34   I feel like, sort of like Beats Music lets you migrate from Beats Music to Apple Music.

01:01:41   There's going to be a tool to move your existing workflows to the new system.

01:01:47   And I believe Apple wants to do this rewrite because they believe in automation, but they don't believe in the kind of automation we've been doing so far, especially with URL schemes.

01:01:56   I think, starting with iOS 11, we're going to see a new model for apps to interact with each other.

01:02:04   Based on that foundation, we're going to see Workflow

01:02:08   evolve into an even better solution to let

01:02:12   users create their own improvements

01:02:16   for iOS, their own extensions, their own automations to let apps

01:02:20   talk without having to do any of this aki URL

01:02:24   scheme stuff. It's going to be safe, it's going to be secure, it's going to be filled

01:02:28   with permission dialogues to make sure that you really want to access documents and data

01:02:32   from other apps. That's what I'm settling with for now. The current app will

01:02:38   eventually disappear. There's going to be problems for existing workflows, but I

01:02:42   believe Apple knows that they would just otherwise they would be just

01:02:46   throwing out all of the goodwill for all of these iOS users that are

01:02:50   using iPads and iPhones as productivity devices. And I don't think they're

01:02:54   stupid, and I think there's a case to be made for previous

01:02:58   acquisitions like TestFlight and Beats Music for example. Apple knew perfectly

01:03:02   that developers depended on TestFlight and that a lot of users were already switching

01:03:06   to Beats music.

01:03:07   So instead of just throwing it all out, because you know, you can find great engineers anywhere

01:03:11   these days, but can you find the crazy genius who built a product that you actually want

01:03:15   to be your own?

01:03:17   And that's workflow.

01:03:18   And I don't think Apple wants to just let it die and to just abandon it.

01:03:24   It's gonna be a long road and it's not gonna be now, it's gonna be at least a year away,

01:03:27   But I think we'll see, I'm feeling positive about seeing the results of these acquisitions.

01:03:32   The thing about that that jumps out at me is Apple already has a system for apps to

01:03:38   talk to each other.

01:03:39   On the Mac it's Apple Events.

01:03:40   And it's been there since System 7, which came out a hundred years ago.

01:03:46   And they have things on top of it like AppleScript.

01:03:49   You can use JavaScript now.

01:03:52   You can use AppleScript Objective-C stuff.

01:03:55   most recent episode of MacPowerUsers is all about this. You should go check out.

01:03:58   It's really awesome. But I agree with you that XCallbackURL and using URLs

01:04:06   in general for this is hacky. There's, you know, potential security concerns. It's

01:04:11   not as baked in as something like Apple Events or Automator Actions on the Mac

01:04:17   can be. It's sort of on top, right? And they sort of dip into an app and do

01:04:20   something, but they're not integrated throughout the stack, if you

01:04:23   will and I could see a world where Apple moves away from them to something else

01:04:28   but they already have something else and in my mind looking at those two facts

01:04:35   like looking at like URLs maybe aren't the future of this Apple events is like

01:04:39   old and creaky in places and Automator you know requires a Mac developer to

01:04:45   build an actions to their app to even be available to it that maybe they can

01:04:50   build something for the future of both platforms so they can build something

01:04:53   that would truly be cross-platform because right now Automator actions are

01:04:57   stuck on the Mac and your workflow callback URL stuff is stuck on iOS and

01:05:04   you can't build a tool or a system that works on both really.

01:05:09   And that is interesting to me. Would Apple build something that would

01:05:15   consider both platforms that they would consider? Look, if you take the time and

01:05:19   learn how this works, you know, if you're a developer and you're cross-platform

01:05:22   you can use the same type of code in both of your apps to do this. If you are

01:05:26   an end user and you work on both platforms you can create a workflow in

01:05:30   one place and it work everywhere. That's really exciting to me to have

01:05:34   something new, something modern, something secure from the ground up

01:05:38   that would allow for this. Who knows if that's what they're doing.

01:05:43   I agree with you there's a lot of uncertainty around that but this comes

01:05:47   at a time, an interesting time, where Apple is, you know, we went from a

01:05:55   conversation just a couple weeks ago of them, you know, letting go of Sal and

01:05:58   they're not being the AppleScript guy in there anymore, right? And the automation

01:06:02   guy no longer at Apple, but then they buy workflow. And so my hope is that they

01:06:09   have an eye cut to the future and say, you know, we want to build something new

01:06:12   that can work for all of our customers, not just iOS, not just Mac, but for

01:06:15   everybody. So yeah, either way it's going to be long, right? Like you said, this is

01:06:21   going to be a long process, but I think if they do it right, it could definitely be worthwhile

01:06:25   at the end of the day.

01:06:27   Let's take a break. There's more. There's a lot more to talk about on this, and I want

01:06:32   to do that, and I have some stuff to say. This week's episode of Connected is brought

01:06:38   to you by Blue Apron, the number one recipe delivery service that has the freshest ingredients.

01:06:44   Blue Apron's mission is to make incredible home cooking accessible to everyone, whilst

01:06:48   also supporting a more sustainable food system. They set the highest standards for their ingredients.

01:06:53   For example, their produce is sourced from farms that practice regenerative farming.

01:06:57   Their beef, chicken and pork come from responsibly raised animals. And their seafood is sourced

01:07:02   under standards developed in partnership with the Monterey Bay Aquarium Seafood Watch. They

01:07:06   care about the food that you're putting in your body. And they also care about the way

01:07:11   you make it they want to make it easy for you. So for less than $10 a meal you get all of these

01:07:16   beautiful seasonal recipes and high quality ingredients delivered to you with these great

01:07:21   step-by-step recipe cards they're easy to follow you can create the meals in less than 40 minutes

01:07:26   and you'll be able to get all of your ingredients sent to you in little portions and cartons and

01:07:32   everything is just what you need no more no less so that way you don't have to run to the grocery

01:07:36   store to get a clove of garlic the clove of garlic is there you get those little eggs in little egg

01:07:40   boxes which are really cute. All of that stuff is nice and set out for you so you're going

01:07:45   to get what you need to create incredible home cooked meal. What about sweet and sour

01:07:51   salmon with bok choy and ginger fried rice? What about Swiss chard and potato shakshuka,

01:07:58   I don't even know what that is but it sounds delicious, with garlic toast and tinker bell

01:08:02   peppers or spicy chicken sandwiches with Alabama white sauce and sweet potato. These are just

01:08:06   some of the meals that are available right now with Blue Apron. You can choose from those

01:08:10   meals or any of the long lists that they have each week or let Blue Apron's culinary team

01:08:15   surprise you. I think the thing that will surprise you even more is how good you're

01:08:19   going to get with cooking. Getting this stuff in a couple of times a week, three times a

01:08:22   week you'll be able to follow the recipe cards and over time you're going to learn new skills

01:08:27   so you'll be able to cook better food at home for you and your family. Blue Apron delivers

01:08:32   to 99% at the continental US. There's no weekly commitment, you only get the deliveries when

01:08:36   you want them and their freshness guarantee means that every ingredient arrives ready to cook or

01:08:40   they'll make it right. Check out this week's menu and get 3 meals for free with your first purchase

01:08:46   including free shipping by going to blueapron.com/connected and I would like to thank pasta

01:08:51   boy in the chat room who has told me that shakshuka is eggs, spices and tomatoes and it's very common

01:08:56   there in Israel where they are so there you go it sounds like a very tasty meal. You'll love how good

01:09:01   it feels and tastes to create incredible home cooked meals at Blue Apron so don't wait go to

01:09:04   blueapron.com/connected and we thank them for their support of this show and Relay FM.

01:09:09   Blue Apron, a better way to cook.

01:09:11   All right, um, this is where I feel we are right now. I really feel like that this is just

01:09:21   a crossroad and there are like, there are two ways we go from this. Either iOS starts to have

01:09:28   automation baked right in as Federico speaks about with this mechanism to make apps talk to each

01:09:34   other which by the way I assume will be just as frustrating as waiting for split screen

01:09:40   to come to an app. Right? There will be this period of time where we're waiting for apps

01:09:44   to get this stuff that none of them get. And we have to like wish and hope and fingers

01:09:48   crossed every week that Google's going to add it to docs, whatever it might be. But

01:09:53   that's one thing, right? And that could be really interesting, very exciting and with

01:09:58   the possibility, the strong possibility to be infinitely more powerful than workflow

01:10:02   could have ever been, right? Because it's the OS. The other one is productivity on iOS

01:10:09   is going to stall. Because I, at least from the people that I know that use iOS to get

01:10:22   work done that is relatively complex work or work that is replacing work done on their

01:10:30   Mac or their PC, it feels like, and again this could be a self-selecting group of people,

01:10:36   but it feels like Workflow is a part of all of those people's productivity in some way.

01:10:43   They use Workflow to do simple things or they use Workflow to do incredibly complex things,

01:10:49   but Workflow is just one of those things because there's just some stuff on iOS that honestly

01:10:54   the only way to do it is to use that application or that you can maybe try and do it with like

01:11:01   a bunch of apps or like you buy some single self purpose apps but workflow is this one

01:11:07   app that can do a bunch of different things and my concern is that either this goes nowhere

01:11:15   or my other concern is that we fall somewhere in the middle and that it feels as uncomfortable

01:11:21   to me, like, that there will be this great new system, but there is stuff that I do on

01:11:26   iOS right now that I won't be able to do anymore.

01:11:29   Like I struggle to imagine Apple's system interacting with web APIs.

01:11:35   I actually don't.

01:11:38   I think, you know, those are programmer tasks and I don't think there's a…

01:11:45   Apple is afraid of, you know, users who know what they're doing, doing that type of stuff,

01:11:50   Especially coming from a Mac perspective, and how you can actually call out web services in the terminal for example

01:11:57   I don't think Apple is concerned about leaving the more advanced stuff in. I think what their main concern is

01:12:04   having this insecure system for

01:12:09   launching apps be still in place. This is the reason why for example in iOS 10

01:12:14   they added, or maybe it was iOS 9, I don't remember, they added a confirmation dialogue. The first time you want to launch an app with a URL scheme,

01:12:22   you're like, do you want to open this in Todoist, for example?

01:12:26   Because they really didn't like the idea of users

01:12:30   accidentally tapping a link on a web page or maybe in a message or anywhere in an app and be taken into

01:12:37   another app that does something on their behalf,

01:12:41   because there's a URL scheme with some parameters and some actions. And Apple really didn't like the idea, and that's why they added the confirmation prompt.

01:12:48   But still, that is sort of putting a patch on the problem. It's not really a solution.

01:12:53   And I strongly feel that they wish they could have

01:12:58   provided a solution to avoid all of this URL scheme stuff with iOS 8, but they couldn't. They couldn't quite get there.

01:13:06   And I feel like

01:13:10   there's two parts to this. There's the Apple that wants to build a better solution, but there's also the Apple that

01:13:17   is sort of fascinated by what people have been doing with workflow on iOS. Because really it comes down, I think, to

01:13:25   like you mentioned Myke, all of these single-purpose apps that you can build. If you think about it,

01:13:32   workflow allows you to make your iPhone or iPad

01:13:38   more personal, because it doesn't have to be about these complex workflows and chains of actions,

01:13:44   like the ones that I build or the ones that you built, Myke. This, you know, crazy series of 20

01:13:50   actions and 30 actions. Really, you can make your own mini extensions with workflow. For things that iOS doesn't do by default,

01:13:59   like, I want to have a workflow that lets me copy a link and message it to my girlfriend.

01:14:05   And now workflow you can make your own mini extension that does that for you.

01:14:09   There's this idea of making your device more personal, creating

01:14:13   this... really you can go back to HyperCard and people just toying

01:14:17   around and building their own stuff, and I think there's power to that idea.

01:14:21   Sort of these Lego blocks that you can remix and shuffle around

01:14:25   and share with others and others can remix on their own. I think it's a beautiful

01:14:29   idea, and I think Apple sees the potential in that.

01:14:33   But it also knows that if we can continue, it cannot be this way.

01:14:39   And that's why my concern, and I think yours too, stands.

01:14:44   Is it gonna be better? Is it gonna be worse? Is it gonna be two, three years away?

01:14:49   Are developers even gonna embrace this new system?

01:14:54   And what happens in the meantime?

01:14:56   That's what I want to discuss. What happens now?

01:14:59   If Apple releases an iOS 11 beta and the beta breaks workflow, what are we gonna do?

01:15:07   Really, my primary concern now is the workflow app is living on, sort of on the App Store.

01:15:14   Will it survive updates or new features or new apps?

01:15:20   And if it doesn't, how will we rethink what we do?

01:15:26   Yeah, I mean, that was really the heart of my question a couple weeks ago, right?

01:15:33   What happens if it goes away?

01:15:37   And I think there's definitely going to be some sort of lull here in the middle, right?

01:15:42   As workflow slowly fades, but the new thing isn't ready yet.

01:15:46   If indeed that's what's happening.

01:15:48   I think something else that is going to end up being frustrating is if whatever this new

01:15:52   thing is or even if workflow just gets

01:15:54   adopted by Apple and they don't

01:15:57   really change anything it's just you

01:15:58   know part of Apple now and it becomes

01:16:01   either part of iOS or really what

01:16:04   I would think they would do is it be

01:16:05   something like iBooks right where it's

01:16:07   not bundled on the device but you

01:16:08   download like GarageBand or these other

01:16:10   iOS apps. Is it going to get moved into

01:16:13   Apple's rigid point release cycle

01:16:16   where you get something every six, nine,

01:16:18   or twelve months? Is the beauty of

01:16:20   workflow being outside of Apple for all

01:16:22   of its challenges there is that it was up to the workflow team and to other

01:16:26   third-party developers when workflow got updates, right? Workflow became more

01:16:31   usable if your notes app suddenly supported it or you switch to a

01:16:35   different web service that offered support in workflow and all of a sudden

01:16:39   it unlocked this new world of stuff you can do. You know Myke and I both went

01:16:42   through this more recently than you did Federico with Todoist and Zapier,

01:16:46   right? Being able to hook all these things together and we can constantly be

01:16:52   improving our workflows and our efficiencies now because it's always

01:16:57   evolving, it's a tool set that is always changing and growing and even if the

01:17:01   best case scenario is look Apple just you know the workflow team they just

01:17:06   wear Apple badges now and they're still making workflow and it's you know stays

01:17:10   the same and they're you know they're not redeveloping everything. Even if

01:17:15   it just gets put on Apple's slow release cycle that's going to be frustrating

01:17:19   right? And I wonder if that's not the worst-case scenario, right? That it still

01:17:27   exists, but it is really slow to adopt new things, and it's really

01:17:32   challenging to try to evolve and to push your set of tools because it's now

01:17:38   caught up in Apple's, you know, slow corporate, you know, release cycle.

01:17:48   I don't feel good man. I'm really struggling to feel good about this. I am. The problem

01:17:57   is because everything is uncertain and history has shown that this might not go so well.

01:18:12   Because both history of apps and services being acquired by Apple and shutting down.

01:18:19   But I think that the high profile acquisitions I can think of in recent memory, TestFlight

01:18:24   and BeatsMusic, that went pretty well.

01:18:27   And TestFlight, I mean...

01:18:28   About Siri.

01:18:29   I mean, Siri, sure, it was a problem in the short term, but I mean, we cannot complain

01:18:34   now, I think.

01:18:35   I mean, Siri is...

01:18:36   I mean, we complain about Siri a lot.

01:18:39   Yeah, but for all that we complain, I mean, it's an assistant baked right in, and it's

01:18:46   on a bunch of platforms, in a bunch of languages, it's not an app that you need to open to do

01:18:51   a limited set of things.

01:18:53   I mean, it's got problems.

01:18:55   But I would say that the reach of Siri is bigger now than ever.

01:19:00   And even if it's not perfect, it's not terrible, it's not this crazy AI that we would like

01:19:06   to have this sort of this Jarvis that we would like to have, but it's bigger than the app

01:19:12   it used to be. And if you look at TestFlight, when it got acquired, so many developers were

01:19:19   upset by the news. Because I remember it was...

01:19:22   TestFlight is awesome.

01:19:23   TestFlight is awesome now.

01:19:25   This TestFlight, at least for beta testers, is better than the old TestFlight.

01:19:30   Yeah, exactly. And I feel like Workflow is not like building an AI like Siri, which is this massive, at-a-scale sort of web service.

01:19:40   We're talking about an app based on a framework for developers, and I feel pretty good about it, I think.

01:19:49   I think it's going to be a long wait, but I think eventually we'll get a good result out of this.

01:19:56   this because I feel like Apple believes in the idea of being productive on iOS.

01:20:03   They haven't shown us a lot of love in the past couple of years, and that is true, but I think this is a chance to make it right.

01:20:13   Starting this year with iOS 11, with possibly new iPads, and eventually with a way to create your own automations and to have workflow as a system feature,

01:20:23   and this new communication system between apps,

01:20:26   I think it's going to be a slow path.

01:20:30   It's going to take a while.

01:20:32   But I really struggle to see Apple just getting workflow

01:20:34   and getting the team and the team signing off to say,

01:20:37   "Well, we're just going to cash in and goodbye to workflow."

01:20:40   I really, knowing these people,

01:20:41   I really struggle to imagine that scenario.

01:20:44   -But what if, though, like in the good scenario here, right,

01:20:48   like that we get this great new system

01:20:50   and Apple's able to create things,

01:20:53   really awesome and it's like you know it's like the new hypercard it's like

01:20:56   these Lego building blocks for everyone but what if nobody cares what if what do

01:21:01   you mean the general user doesn't care like that this just isn't something that

01:21:07   they're interested in I don't think general users care now about workflow

01:21:10   like well no they don't right but like let's just say that Apple creates this

01:21:14   system that is intended to be from the basic user to the advanced user right to

01:21:19   help them make fun things on their phones or whatever and nobody cares and

01:21:24   then Apple's like well we didn't get as many people interested in this as we

01:21:29   wanted like I think we're gonna put you on another thing now that's what I worry

01:21:34   about yeah I think so the idea that Apple could create a new system that's

01:21:40   gonna be mass-market I think is is probably foolish because mass-market

01:21:45   users don't care about automation. I mean they care about productivity in the

01:21:50   sense they're using apps that help them be productive but the way that the three

01:21:54   of us and our listeners define productivity is different than the way

01:21:58   most people do and any automation tool like they try this with Automator like

01:22:03   a with Tiger when you know Sal's on stage talking about Automator the idea

01:22:08   was hey anybody can just open this thing and like drag I mean it's the prototype

01:22:13   of workflow right you can drag these little building blocks together and you

01:22:18   can make it run or you can save it as a little app or a little service and you

01:22:22   know what I have a bunch of automator actions that I that I rely on in my work

01:22:25   that you know help me cut corners and speed things up but I could do all of

01:22:29   that work without automator right I can go in and resize all my images and strip

01:22:34   them of GPS metadata in preview and it just takes a little bit longer. Where I

01:22:38   think the difference is and where I think it's been actually more harmful to

01:22:42   iOS is that there are things that are

01:22:45   only possible through something like

01:22:47   workflow or that the time difference to

01:22:50   do something between doing it the

01:22:53   regular way in apps and then doing it

01:22:54   with a workflow is so much greater than

01:22:56   it is on the Mac with with Automator

01:22:58   that iOS has more to lose if this goes

01:23:00   wrong.

01:23:01   iOS would be set back further than if

01:23:04   something like Automator went away on

01:23:06   the Mac. And that I think is the

01:23:10   is... that's another potential nightmare

01:23:14   scenario, right? That they get this

01:23:16   wrong and it stalls out and it moves

01:23:19   backwards even and people like the two

01:23:22   of you who want to work on the iPad, who

01:23:24   prefer it, who make their living on it,

01:23:26   are going to be hindered and maybe you

01:23:30   stick with it or maybe you don't or

01:23:32   maybe the listener out there now who, you

01:23:34   know, is thinking about buying a MacBook

01:23:36   or an iPad Pro and is on the fence, maybe

01:23:38   they pick the Mac and from the iOS first perspective of Apple, this is Apple's

01:23:44   modern OS, it's their biggest OS, that's not a good thing and it could put a cap

01:23:50   on how how high iOS could go as far as what it can do power wise and I think

01:23:57   the comparison to Automator on the Mac is one that's helpful historically, I

01:24:02   know that's like my thing right, but Apple pitched it as anyone can do this

01:24:06   and the truth is no one does it, right?

01:24:09   Like, nerds use Automator, but normal,

01:24:12   like, you know, average users don't, right?

01:24:15   'Cause they open it and it looks scary, right?

01:24:17   The first thing it does is actually,

01:24:18   it asks if you wanna create an application

01:24:20   or like a workflow or service.

01:24:22   People don't know what those things are,

01:24:23   so they just, ah, back out of it, right?

01:24:26   And they have, Apple has a unique opportunity now with this

01:24:31   to look at the Mac, look at Automator,

01:24:36   at the AppleScript editor all that all that stuff all that legacy stuff on the

01:24:39   Mac and say what of this makes sense now on iOS as a modern touch-based OS what

01:24:46   didn't work you know ten years ago when we tried this on the Mac what could work

01:24:50   now and if they aren't doing that if they're not really considering the pros

01:24:56   and cons to a system like automator or the failure points of a system like

01:25:01   Automator and AppleScript then that's concerning to me. They need to have an

01:25:06   understanding of what the user base is going to be and what they can do

01:25:11   realistically to make it better. Right? If they just say "Oh anyone can use this"

01:25:15   like that's not good enough. They need to really make it where anyone can use it

01:25:20   and they need to to preach the benefit of it to average user. Right? Three of us

01:25:28   us, again our listeners, of course workflow is useful and powerful and of course things

01:25:34   like Automator and shell scripting, those things are important to nerds because they

01:25:38   make the computers work for us.

01:25:41   But you have to have that basic conversation with the user to onboard them.

01:25:45   And I don't know if Apple can do that.

01:25:46   I don't know if anyone can do it, let alone Apple.

01:25:49   I strongly, really strongly believe that, and I'll try to make the case for this in

01:25:56   the story but I feel like there's a power to the idea of letting people

01:26:03   create and you can see sort of a kindle of this in the Swift playgrounds.

01:26:13   You can make the case that Apple doesn't need to make Swift playgrounds but it's

01:26:18   important to have it on iOS because it sort of creates a new generation of kids

01:26:24   or maybe even people my age that can learn a new thing and create a thing for them eventually, maybe in the future.

01:26:31   And I feel like we don't need to think of automation

01:26:35   in the sense of "I'm making a script. I'm a programmer." Now there's so much

01:26:41   discussion about this giving labels to people. I mean Myke, you know this, and I really don't understand it because I

01:26:53   I think what we should focus on is the power to create, not saying, "Well, I'm officially a programmer, put a tag on my chest,

01:26:59   I'm a programmer today." That's not the point. I feel like

01:27:02   there's a power to the idea of letting people customize their own computer, and

01:27:07   to let people use technology to their advantage.

01:27:11   That's the basic idea behind workflow, behind your other schemes, scripting, whatever, Xcode.

01:27:17   You want people to create a thing, to build a thing that makes the computer better.

01:27:22   Whether it's an app, a web service, a sticker pack, whatever. You're creating stuff for a screen.

01:27:29   How can workflow fit into this picture? And when I'm thinking about it, the possibilities of Apple owning workflow and

01:27:38   building this

01:27:40   visual,

01:27:41   friendly,

01:27:42   secure and integrated tool that lets you come up with stuff

01:27:47   that you can create, whether it's a widget or an extension or a chain of actions, a

01:27:54   9-message app, whatever, and you can create your own things because Apple cannot possibly

01:28:00   build all of the extensions and all of the widgets and all of the automations for everyone.

01:28:06   And so they give the power back to you and

01:28:10   And they say, well now you have this system, it's secure, you cannot really compromise the security of your devices,

01:28:16   but you can create, you can build these things on your own. And it's easy, and it's safe,

01:28:21   it's fast, and it's actually kind of fun. And I have this idea of giving, you know, Workflow 2.0,

01:28:29   whatever it's called, to someone and saying, well, you want to write a manuscript, you want to write a book,

01:28:34   but you don't have the features in pages that you want, well now make a macro for you.

01:28:38   and you can actually do it on your own. Or you're an architect and you want to

01:28:43   have a system that turns your drawing into an SVG file and saves that into

01:28:47   iCloud drive, where now you can make a system that lets you be a better

01:28:51   architect with your iPad because you can carry it around and have this automation.

01:28:54   We need to let go of this idea of "I'm sitting down and I'm doing programmer

01:28:59   tasks because I'm wearing my programmer hat and now I'm doing scripting". That's

01:29:04   really not the point. And I have this idea of... you can see that

01:29:09   I think there's a parallel I think between video games like Minecraft or

01:29:15   like the Breath of the Wild. This is gonna sound crazy but bear with me. There's a

01:29:19   parallel, there's the same thread between those games, the open approach. I'm giving

01:29:25   you a universe of tools and you can reshape it. And apps like Workflow, apps

01:29:31   like Swift Playgrounds. I'm giving you a secure environment, now go crazy and

01:29:36   create your own stuff. And that's, I believe, the message that Apple didn't

01:29:43   just buy Workflow, they bought a message. And my best case scenario is not... it's

01:29:49   really not about the technical details even, it's about this. Does Apple believe

01:29:53   in the idea behind Workflow? Does Apple believe in the idea, not of automation in

01:29:57   the sense of, oh, URL schemes and chains of actions and X callbacks. That's not

01:30:01   the point. Does Apple believe in the idea of we make the computer, you make the computer

01:30:08   your own? And that's the kind of Apple that I want to see going forward. It's going to

01:30:14   be a long wait, but that's the path that I hope that we'll take.

01:30:19   I have never wanted you to be right more than right now, because I agree with everything

01:30:24   you're saying. I think that you're making perfect sense. And I desperately hope that

01:30:29   Apple believe the same. I think that these initial, I think the fact that they've done

01:30:34   this is a good sign for the fact that they want to do more in it, right? Like actually

01:30:39   buying workflow and then keeping the app open, like that is a strong sign, I think, to not

01:30:45   just be like, nah, it's not important, that thing's useless. Like all we do is we just

01:30:49   want you, you're just really smart engineers, we don't care about that app. Like they kept

01:30:53   the app and that's not a thing that they do very often, right? Like that they would buy

01:30:56   a company and then kind of allow that company's project to remain available to the world.

01:31:02   They even made changes in fact that they made it free right that they're like let people

01:31:06   go and get this app right and try it. My hope is that that is like because and like the

01:31:11   rest of that sentence is because we want people to do this stuff. That's I really really really

01:31:17   hope. My concern and my doubt isn't just based on the fact that it's Apple like it would

01:31:23   would be if it was any company that bought this thing

01:31:25   because for the reasons that we were talking about

01:31:27   two weeks ago, it's super important to me.

01:31:29   I don't want it to change, right?

01:31:31   Like because I just wanted to get better

01:31:33   like it has been for the last few years.

01:31:34   That's all I want because I love it.

01:31:36   But if this is the only thing that the workflow team

01:31:38   could do or it's the only thing that they wanted to do,

01:31:40   then fine, like let them go and do it.

01:31:42   It's their business.

01:31:43   I just really hope that the thing that I rely on

01:31:45   and that is really important to me to help me do things

01:31:48   that I want to do on the devices that I want to use

01:31:51   continues to improve.

01:31:52   that's that's kind of all I want really. If you want to find our show notes this week head on over to

01:31:57   relay.fm/connected/135 don't forget to sign up for uh the mailing list for the tickets for our

01:32:05   WWDC meetup that is the top link in our show notes this week. If you want to find Federico online go

01:32:11   to maxstories.net Federico's got a really big article that he's been working on which kind of

01:32:15   sums up and even expands even further on what we were talking about today so go check that out

01:32:19   and he is @Vittici on Twitter V I T I C C I

01:32:22   Stephen is @ismh and he's over at 512pixels.net and I am imike

01:32:27   I M Y K E on Twitter. Thanks again to our friends over at Encapsula, Blue Apron and

01:32:34   Eero for supporting this week's show

01:32:36   and we'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye guys.

01:32:39   Arrivederci. Adios.