Connected

00:00:00 ◼   ► [Music]

00:00:06 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Connected. Today's show is brought to you by our friends

00:00:11 ◼   ► at Igloo. My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by Mr Federico Vittucci. Hi Federico.

00:00:16 ◼   ► Ciao Myke. Ciao Federico and howdy Mrs Stephen Hackett.

00:00:20 ◼   ► Greetings from the south. Howdy y'all.

00:00:23 ◼   ► Wow. Wow, nice accent Myke.

00:00:27 ◼   ► I need to address something, a horrible travesty.

00:00:32 ◼   ► So after we recorded last week's episode, within 10 minutes, we had news that we would

00:00:40 ◼   ► have definitely wanted to discuss on the show.

00:00:43 ◼   ► And also an entire topic was completely invalidated by some follow up news.

00:00:49 ◼   ► It was within 10 minutes, Google Docs on the iPad Pro came out, which we'll talk about

00:00:54 ◼   ► a second and Flexbright got pulled from the App Store. That was great, that was just a

00:01:00 ◼   ► great way to post a show. So I posted the show, some people may have seen the beautiful

00:01:05 ◼   ► spelling error of Ricktext instead of Richtext, and then all the news went wrong. So Steven,

00:01:12 ◼   ► never leave us again, because it's clearly the only thing that changed is you weren't

00:01:15 ◼   ► here and then everything went to hell, basically.

00:01:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, I was ill.

00:01:21 ◼   ► Not faking, as some people suggested.

00:01:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, whatever.

00:01:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, so this Flexbrite app turns out not so much allowed.

00:01:31 ◼   ► And it was pulled, and you guys spoke a lot about this

00:01:36 ◼   ► in the last episode about what does working with Apple mean?

00:01:40 ◼   ► - It means it doesn't exist, that's what it means.

00:01:42 ◼   ► - It means you get pulled from the app store

00:01:44 ◼   ► for breaking the rules.

00:01:46 ◼   ► My sort of big question for this,

00:01:48 ◼   ► so we see this sometimes, right?

00:01:49 ◼   ► see an app that in the old days would add tethering or you know something like

00:01:53 ◼   ► this something clearly outside of what Apple wants in the App Store and I

00:02:00 ◼   ► always wonder like if the press makes that worse so like if this if this app

00:02:04 ◼   ► had had no press could they just exist in the App Store forever or because it

00:02:09 ◼   ► was on the front page of MacRumors someone at Apple was like oh that's not

00:02:14 ◼   ► cool and then went and pulled the trigger. There's no really way to know the

00:02:18 ◼   ► answer to that right it's a very chicken and egg problem but I always

00:02:20 ◼   ► always just think about that when you see some big hyper profile thing come

00:02:24 ◼   ► out and then it's gone in eight hours I don't know but it's gone yeah without a

00:02:29 ◼   ► shadow of a doubt it getting noticed by the press is what made the app die yeah

00:02:33 ◼   ► it's not good because it got through right like they didn't put it back

00:02:36 ◼   ► through for another review it got into the store and then MacRumors puts it on

00:02:41 ◼   ► the front page does a little interview with them and then apples like alright

00:02:45 ◼   ► and then just pulls it out, not Apple.

00:02:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, and the best part is whenever stuff like this happens,

00:02:53 ◼   ► there's people on Twitter, they're like,

00:02:55 ◼   ► "Yes, this is Tim Cook's Apple.

00:02:58 ◼   ► This is change, Apple is changing."

00:03:00 ◼   ► And of course, two days later, the app is gone.

00:03:02 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:03:04 ◼   ► - Same old, same old, basically.

00:03:06 ◼   ► - This may be Tim Cook's Apple,

00:03:08 ◼   ► just not for app review, I guess.

00:03:11 ◼   ► I mean, it makes sense, right?

00:03:12 ◼   ► If you think about it, there's Night Shift coming out in maybe next week.

00:03:18 ◼   ► And the app is clearly not as good as Night Shift, and I could have understood the motivation.

00:03:25 ◼   ► We want to give people with older iPhones access to this kind of feature.

00:03:29 ◼   ► But it just was so weird.

00:03:31 ◼   ► And the developer is saying, we worked with Apple.

00:03:34 ◼   ► And the motivation that they gave to MacRumors, it was along the lines of, well, we didn't

00:03:40 ◼   ► necessarily use private APIs.

00:03:42 ◼   ► was our own framework, which is a public framework built

00:03:47 ◼   ► on top of APIs that developers cannot use.

00:03:49 ◼   ► Which means, yes, we were using private APIs just

00:03:53 ◼   ► in a fancy way.

00:03:54 ◼   ► So we were hoping not to get caught, but whatever.

00:03:57 ◼   ► We got caught.

00:03:58 ◼   ► Maybe next time.

00:03:59 ◼   ► Did you see this tweet from Amar?

00:04:01 ◼   ► Basically, Flexbright taking like 69% battery

00:04:07 ◼   ► as background activity.

00:04:09 ◼   ► Not really.

00:04:10 ◼   ► Not what you want at all.

00:04:12 ◼   ► His second is PDF expert. He's a power user making those PDFs on his iPad.

00:04:17 ◼   ► But I just chuckled when I saw that screenshot.

00:04:20 ◼   ► Clearly this app was not well designed and not something Apple wants around.

00:04:25 ◼   ► Speaking of apps that aren't well designed, we talked about this a second ago.

00:04:30 ◼   ► Google Docs got updated for the iPad Pro. I'm going to put that in scare quotes because...

00:04:34 ◼   ► That was such a good segue.

00:04:36 ◼   ► Yeah, perfect. Very well done. Very well done.

00:04:40 ◼   ► I mean, iPad Pro support with a very big footnote here.

00:04:45 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Yeah.

00:04:46 ◼   ► - So it supports the larger screen now, right?

00:04:49 ◼   ► So you don't get the enormous toddler-sized keyboard.

00:04:54 ◼   ► But there's still nothing that we actually want.

00:04:58 ◼   ► So no slide over, no split view.

00:05:00 ◼   ► - It's halfway there, right?

00:05:02 ◼   ► So somebody who's still using Google Docs every day,

00:05:05 ◼   ► it's way nicer now.

00:05:06 ◼   ► I'm very happy that they did this.

00:05:09 ◼   ► I want them to go the whole way, naturally,

00:05:11 ◼   ► and go for split view, which I think, you know,

00:05:13 ◼   ► I'm still holding on to the hope that it will happen,

00:05:16 ◼   ► but we're not there yet.

00:05:18 ◼   ► So like, it's a step in the right direction,

00:05:21 ◼   ► but it's still a few steps behind,

00:05:24 ◼   ► which prompted Federico to rain hellfire and brimstone

00:05:28 ◼   ► upon Google in a little piece on Mac stories.

00:05:31 ◼   ► - It's kind of ridiculous, really.

00:05:34 ◼   ► You know, a company the size of Google

00:05:36 ◼   ► taking this many months to finish what has to be the final product, which is, you know,

00:05:43 ◼   ► proper iOS apps with iOS 9 features. It's now mid-March, and they're only starting now

00:05:50 ◼   ► to have, you know, multitasking support and full resolution support on the iPad Pro. And

00:05:55 ◼   ► in general, there's a John Gruber tweet that he sent me, you know, with a comment that

00:06:01 ◼   ► we cannot quote on the show, but basically saying that the Google's iOS apps are not

00:06:07 ◼   ► really good, and I'm paraphrasing here. And I truly believe that Google has been going

00:06:13 ◼   ► downhill when it comes to what they offer on iOS. They used to make, I mean, they make

00:06:18 ◼   ► pretty amazing web services. Whatever you think about, you know, Google and privacy,

00:06:22 ◼   ► I think it's undeniable that Google makes solid web services, and I use them every day,

00:06:26 ◼   ► I depend on Google services. And some iOS apps are decent, or that I say good apps,

00:06:31 ◼   ► such as Google Maps, for example, even if it lacks some of the features on Android,

00:06:35 ◼   ► it's a good iOS app. But the majority of Google apps on iOS have really seen a decline in

00:06:41 ◼   ► terms of quality and in terms of feature adoption with the latest iOS versions. I don't talk

00:06:48 ◼   ► about it, but even if you look at the Google Calendar app for iOS, it's only an iPhone

00:06:52 ◼   ► and it doesn't really use any iOS interface paradigm, which is not new, but I mean it

00:06:58 ◼   ► doesn't have an iPad version and it lacks so many of the features of Google calendar

00:07:03 ◼   ► on the web. And you can see this in many many Google apps, YouTube, Google Docs, Google

00:07:09 ◼   ► Chrome was even, you know, it doesn't have many of the features that I want to see in

00:07:13 ◼   ► a browser. It's a very sad state and a lot of people say "well, it's not in Google's

00:07:19 ◼   ► interest to make solid iOS apps because Google is a web company. And to that I respond that

00:07:25 ◼   ► it to, at least my opinion is, Google is a company that wants users to use their services

00:07:32 ◼   ► as much as possible. To collect data, to make better services, to feed the AI that they

00:07:38 ◼   ► use with more data, and to not have a solid iOS ecosystem is ultimately detrimental to

00:07:46 ◼   ► Google's very business, which is to have as many users as possible, collect data, make

00:07:52 ◼   ► better services, sell advertisements. And I believe that having a native iOS experience

00:07:59 ◼   ► is key to that business strategy.

00:08:01 ◼   ► I think that their apps got really good, and there's still points where they are good.

00:08:08 ◼   ► I think Chrome is very good. I use it every day and I have no problems with it at all.

00:08:14 ◼   ► Chrome is one of their apps that they actually update pretty quickly.

00:08:18 ◼   ► It's had Splitview for a long time, I think it was like a couple of weeks after multitasking

00:08:22 ◼   ► came out it got Splitview and it looks great on the iPad Pro.

00:08:26 ◼   ► I think that is an app which I do like and I think it works well.

00:08:30 ◼   ► And they have other apps like the Drive app was updated with Splitview again very quickly.

00:08:35 ◼   ► They just seem to have these weird pockets where it's falling behind and I wish we knew

00:08:40 ◼   ► why.

00:08:42 ◼   ► There's obviously a reason, I don't know what that reason is, but at this point it's a shame

00:08:48 ◼   ► to see because for a while, you know, Google were making some of the best apps on iOS and

00:08:53 ◼   ► something's changed and we cannot see what that is.

00:08:58 ◼   ► Before we move to the next follow-up item, I have a favor to ask you guys.

00:09:04 ◼   ► So I was contacted privately by a friend of mine, Luca, he's one of the Italian co-hosts

00:09:09 ◼   ► of Easy Apple, one of my favorite Italian podcasts, and he asked me today, and I'm quoting

00:09:16 ◼   ► here, to put an end to the pineapple pizza travesty on Relay.

00:09:21 ◼   ► Oh no.

00:09:22 ◼   ► So I need you guys to tell me what's going on with pineapple pizza.

00:09:26 ◼   ► What is pineapple pizza?

00:09:28 ◼   ► So this is a conversation that's mainly occurring on Upgrade right now.

00:09:33 ◼   ► Jason's favorite pizza is pineapple and pepperoni.

00:09:38 ◼   ► And John Siracusa, on last week's episode of Upgrade, told Jason that that's ridiculous

00:09:47 ◼   ► and that basically Hawaiian pizza, which is ham and pineapple, is the closest that you

00:09:53 ◼   ► can get to being real pizza and having pineapple on it, but it's still on the fringe.

00:09:58 ◼   ► But now I, this weekend, am going to make and consume pineapple and pepperoni pizza.

00:10:03 ◼   ► So that's kind of where we are with it.

00:10:06 ◼   ► is this is a dude this is not your pizza although I'm pretty sure I saw Hawaiian

00:10:10 ◼   ► pizza in Palermo I actually think I had one so it's one of those things that

00:10:15 ◼   ► they do for the tourists that came I had it at that local pizza store that I told

00:10:19 ◼   ► you about where Italian people were queuing up it exists I can just say God

00:10:26 ◼   ► bless John Siracusa because he sees the light you know I mean but I can let you

00:10:33 ◼   ► guess my stance on pineapple pizza and, you know, these types of Americanism that we see

00:10:42 ◼   ► in Italian food. But it's a different thing, though. Right? I mean, what if I come up with

00:10:50 ◼   ► an idea and it's like, let's make, you know, beef ice cream. Is that really ice cream?

00:10:56 ◼   ► Sure it is. But it's somebody else's interpretation on it. If you're making, like, if you're

00:11:02 ◼   ► freezing cream of flavoring beef. It's just beef flavored ice cream, right? Like this

00:11:07 ◼   ► is just pizza with different toppings on it.

00:11:09 ◼   ► I guess. I guess. Well, you know, we live in a democracy, so everyone's entitled to

00:11:16 ◼   ► their taste. I mean, some tastes are wrong, but you know, whatever. I don't get too upset.

00:11:23 ◼   ► I'll tell you what, Myke. Because I'm a person with an open mind, when we get together, me

00:11:30 ◼   ► and you and Steven and Jason, I will taste pineapple pizza.

00:11:34 ◼   ► It's surprisingly good. The sweetness and the saltiness, it works really well together.

00:11:39 ◼   ► I'll tell you what, I'm open to tasting pineapple pizza. I don't fully condemn pineapple pizza

00:11:46 ◼   ► for now. I'm not ecstatic about the idea, but I'm open to tasting pineapple pizza.

00:11:52 ◼   ► So this will be long term follow up for like a few months time or something?

00:11:56 ◼   ► a few months and we'll chronicle the experience with videos and photos.

00:12:01 ◼   ► We can finally put this to bed.

00:12:03 ◼   ► Yes.

00:12:04 ◼   ► What else do we have on the follow-up docket?

00:12:07 ◼   ► I was just going to say real quick, I'm really proud that the business that you and I have

00:12:11 ◼   ► built is the preeminent podcast network for All Things Pizza.

00:12:17 ◼   ► It's not a goal we set out to have.

00:12:18 ◼   ► ATP, that's what we should call the network now, All Things Pizza, right?

00:12:22 ◼   ► I don't think that's ATP.

00:12:23 ◼   ► Yeah, I'll just buy the domain right now.

00:12:26 ◼   ► OK, great. ATP.fm, all things pizza.

00:12:28 ◼   ► No, no, you know, why don't you buy ATP.pizza, one of those new TLDs.

00:12:33 ◼   ► Does it exist?

00:12:35 ◼   ► Let's see. ATP.

00:12:39 ◼   ► .pizza. I don't think there is a .pizza.

00:12:41 ◼   ► No, there has to be.

00:12:43 ◼   ► Come on, there's .plumber.

00:12:46 ◼   ► Hang on, new .pizza domains.

00:12:48 ◼   ► It looks like some people are saying that it exists.

00:12:51 ◼   ► New pizza domain names. Yeah, it's a thing, Myke.

00:12:54 ◼   ► Wow. Can we get AT? .pizza. So what would we get? AT.pizza, though?

00:12:59 ◼   ► Not ATP.pizza, because then it would be allthingspizza.pizza.

00:13:03 ◼   ► Allthingspizza.pizza.

00:13:07 ◼   ► We'll see. We'll do our research on .pizza domain names.

00:13:12 ◼   ► Excellent. Excellent. So the next item is a little bit

00:13:17 ◼   ► follow-up, a little bit mini topic, but it came up, and I think it was

00:13:22 ◼   ► interest all three of us because we, at least two of us, own both of these products.

00:13:28 ◼   ► Sonos had a blog post last week that is unfortunately full of business speak but

00:13:34 ◼   ► I think what's happening is that they're laying off some people and they are

00:13:38 ◼   ► interested in voice technology. They actually call out the Amazon Echo

00:13:44 ◼   ► specifically in this blog post saying hey you know we think there's some

00:13:47 ◼   ► interesting stuff going in here with the

00:13:51 ◼   ► power of voice control and some home

00:13:54 ◼   ► automation stuff and basically what I

00:13:57 ◼   ► think is happening is that Sonos is

00:13:59 ◼   ► making some sort of change in direction

00:14:03 ◼   ► some sort of pivot from just high-end

00:14:05 ◼   ► sound system stuff that's smart to

00:14:09 ◼   ► something that is a little more

00:14:11 ◼   ► intelligent about the world around it

00:14:14 ◼   ► and there's been lots of suggestions that maybe they're going to partner with

00:14:19 ◼   ► Amazon and somehow have Alexa as a service on top of the Sonos speakers.

00:14:26 ◼   ► I still think it's crazy that Apple hasn't looked at Sonos, but I don't know.

00:14:30 ◼   ► Federico, I was specifically curious what you thought about this, owning both.

00:14:35 ◼   ► I mean, there's a big gap in things like sound quality between Alexa and the Sonos

00:14:40 ◼   ► systems, but at the same time it is kind of interesting to think like what could

00:14:45 ◼   ► an Echo be like with really good speakers built in.

00:14:48 ◼   ► Yeah, I've been thinking about these blog posts because it's very confusing

00:14:52 ◼   ► and I struggle to understand what they were trying to say. So my first idea

00:14:58 ◼   ► was maybe Sonos should just work to be like a third-party service that is

00:15:04 ◼   ► supported by the Amazon Echo. I don't know if that's what they want to do

00:15:09 ◼   ► because the idea that I get from the post is that they want to try to be like

00:15:15 ◼   ► to build more intelligent speakers so they want to create their own Amazon

00:15:19 ◼   ► Echo. I would love to have an Echo that sounds like my Sonos just because you

00:15:27 ◼   ► know the convenience of the Echo I'm using it so much and I'm using it so

00:15:33 ◼   ► much to play music that because of that convenience I'm not using the Sonos

00:15:38 ◼   ► as much as I used to in the couple of weeks that I had the Sonos but didn't have the Amazon

00:15:43 ◼   ► Echo. So I think I would love to have an Amazon Echo that sounds better like the Sonos. I

00:15:51 ◼   ► don't know if Sonos can make a service, a system that is as intelligent as Amazon with

00:15:59 ◼   ► Alexa. I don't know if Sonos is the kind of cloud company that can ship that kind of AI.

00:16:07 ◼   ► And I know that I... I mean, my Sonos is in the living room. I'm not using it much these

00:16:12 ◼   ► days because I'm playing Spotify with Alexa all the time. So, I don't know what I'm going

00:16:18 ◼   ► to do with the Sonos, because it's just sitting there, catching dust, and I'm constantly asking

00:16:24 ◼   ► Alexa to play music and, you know, to do all kinds of other things that we've talked about

00:16:29 ◼   ► before. So in theory, I would love to use the Sonos with Alexa. But in practice, that's

00:16:35 ◼   ► not gonna happen anytime soon I guess. And I don't want to buy a new Sonos even if they

00:16:41 ◼   ► come up with some kind of assistant Sonos speaker like two months from now, which I'm

00:16:46 ◼   ► skeptical about but, you know, just trying to imagine here. So I don't know. I don't

00:16:51 ◼   ► know what I'm gonna do and I don't know if Sonos can do it. I just know that I'm listening

00:16:57 ◼   ► to music with the Amazon Echo and I love the experience. The speaker is not great but it's

00:17:01 ◼   ► good enough, you know?

00:17:03 ◼   ► Yeah, I think I come down basically the same place that, I mean, Sonos sounds so much better,

00:17:10 ◼   ► but Alexa is so much more useful as a piece of technology in my home that I'm willing

00:17:16 ◼   ► to make that trade-off.

00:17:18 ◼   ► And I think that ultimately a company like Sonos is going to need something smarter in

00:17:27 ◼   ► their product, right?

00:17:28 ◼   ► That it may not be enough just to have something that sounds really good.

00:17:32 ◼   ► And of course they're doing a lot of cool stuff with all the streaming services and

00:17:39 ◼   ► everything and they go into that in a blog post.

00:17:40 ◼   ► But I think ultimately as we move forward, there's going to need to be some sort of voice

00:17:47 ◼   ► control or integration with other things to really have a speaker like this earn its keep.

00:17:53 ◼   ► At least in my house and I think in a lot of people's houses.

00:17:55 ◼   ► So I'm curious to see what they do here.

00:17:58 ◼   ► obviously hard to read at any time that a company has layoffs. But if they can make

00:18:07 ◼   ► whatever decisions they need to make and move forward from this, then I think ultimately

00:18:11 ◼   ► that's good. And I do like Sonos. I like them as a company. I like their products. So I

00:18:15 ◼   ► think it's going to be worth keeping an eye on the next little bit to see, you know, does

00:18:20 ◼   ► this go anywhere or was this just sort of a way to package up this bad news and then

00:18:28 ◼   ► just keep going on the same path?

00:18:32 ◼   ► You know what would be interesting? If Apple manages to get their home kit act together,

00:18:40 ◼   ► imagine if they create some kind of standard for manufacturers of speakers and there's

00:18:48 ◼   ► a specification to have Siri built into these speakers, so they open up the standard for

00:18:54 ◼   ► the type of microphone that they want to use, or other technical specs that manufacturers

00:19:01 ◼   ► have to follow. So in the same way that you currently can have different types of thermostats

00:19:08 ◼   ► or different types of sensors, you could buy one of these Siri speakers. They're not made

00:19:14 ◼   ► by Apple but they use HomeKit and Siri technology to let you ask things. Of course that hinges

00:19:21 ◼   ► upon the premise that Siri should be good enough and that HomeKit should be more reliable

00:19:28 ◼   ► and faster. It's interesting, sort of like a mix of HomeKit and maybe the "made for iPhone"

00:19:34 ◼   ► specification because I don't see Apple making a speaker in the near future but maybe if

00:19:40 ◼   ► they're observing this kind of trend of the convenience of Siri in the home with

00:19:47 ◼   ► the speaker that plays music and does other things, it will be interesting to

00:19:50 ◼   ► see that kind of product. Yeah, absolutely. So I think it's gonna be a really

00:19:56 ◼   ► exciting category of devices over the next couple years. Of course there's like

00:20:03 ◼   ► the elephant in the room like what if Siri shows up in a box but even even if Apple

00:20:08 ◼   ► doesn't enter this race like there's lots of interesting stuff to keep an eye

00:20:11 ◼   ► on so I think it's gonna be fun. And then you get you one of these speakers Myke

00:20:16 ◼   ► you'll be all set. I've been too busy registering allthings.pizza.

00:20:21 ◼   ► Seriously? Yeah I've registered it goes to points to real AFM. Which one? AT.pizza?

00:20:26 ◼   ► No allthings.pizza. Allthings.pizza. Perfect. The DNS is propagating but that exists.

00:20:34 ◼   ► - No, yeah, no, it works for me, that's amazing.

00:20:36 ◼   ► - All Things Love Pizza.

00:20:37 ◼   ► - AT.pizza, Hover says you have to make an offer, so.

00:20:41 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm not doing that.

00:20:42 ◼   ► - I'm not going to do that.

00:20:43 ◼   ► - That's why I went for All Things, All Things Love Pizza.

00:20:46 ◼   ► - What's next, Myke?

00:20:47 ◼   ► - So continuing the discussion of audio apps,

00:20:49 ◼   ► I just wanted to take a moment to talk about Overcast 2.5,

00:20:52 ◼   ► 'cause there's a couple of features in there

00:20:53 ◼   ► that I really love.

00:20:55 ◼   ► Marco is a friend, but I am a big fan of Overcast,

00:20:59 ◼   ► it is the app that I use every day.

00:21:01 ◼   ► And he's looked at a bunch of great things

00:21:04 ◼   ► He's looking at trying to make this sound better when you're listening for a speaker

00:21:08 ◼   ► and all that sort of stuff.

00:21:09 ◼   ► We've linked to his blog post, it's in the show notes so you can go and get it.

00:21:12 ◼   ► But my two favorite things in Overcast 2.5 are patron features.

00:21:16 ◼   ► So if you support Overcast through patronage, you can get access to a dark mode, which I

00:21:22 ◼   ► adore.

00:21:24 ◼   ► It basically turns all the UI like a dark gray and blue, which looks especially good

00:21:31 ◼   ► when you're listening to Under the Radar.

00:21:32 ◼   ► the colors seem to match perfectly.

00:21:35 ◼   ► It also looks really good with Cortex,

00:21:37 ◼   ► and as such, Marco's using Cortex

00:21:40 ◼   ► in the kind of the PR pictures, which is nice,

00:21:43 ◼   ► but it does look good together.

00:21:44 ◼   ► And also the file uploads feature.

00:21:47 ◼   ► It's great for two things.

00:21:49 ◼   ► So file uploads, I've been using it

00:21:51 ◼   ► for a couple of months now,

00:21:53 ◼   ► and I'm really happy to say that I like it.

00:21:55 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:21:56 ◼   ► It's good for me as a podcast producer,

00:21:58 ◼   ► especially if I'm putting something like chapters

00:22:00 ◼   ► into an episode, which I do every now and then.

00:22:02 ◼   ► I like to check that they work properly,

00:22:05 ◼   ► so I upload the finalized episode to the uploads feature,

00:22:09 ◼   ► and then I can test it in the app.

00:22:11 ◼   ► And I also put things like audio books in there

00:22:15 ◼   ► and stuff like that.

00:22:16 ◼   ► It really is good, like I'm listening to an audio book

00:22:19 ◼   ► in Overcast right now because of that.

00:22:21 ◼   ► Has to have no DRM on it.

00:22:24 ◼   ► That happens however that happens.

00:22:25 ◼   ► But it's excellent.

00:22:28 ◼   ► I really love those two features.

00:22:30 ◼   ► And if you're a Overcast user,

00:22:31 ◼   ► I strongly recommend becoming a patron

00:22:34 ◼   ► to get access to both of those things,

00:22:35 ◼   ► because I think they're excellent.

00:22:36 ◼   ► Also the dark theme, the dark mode,

00:22:39 ◼   ► uses the San Francisco font,

00:22:41 ◼   ► which is, it just makes Overcast look very different,

00:22:44 ◼   ► but I do really like it.

00:22:46 ◼   ► So I think you should go and check it out,

00:22:48 ◼   ► and there'll be some links in the show notes

00:22:50 ◼   ► to go and read more about it,

00:22:51 ◼   ► including Federico's lovely review,

00:22:53 ◼   ► which also features some beautiful

00:22:54 ◼   ► podcast artwork throughout.

00:22:58 ◼   ► There you go, Avocast 2.5, go get it.

00:23:01 ◼   ► All right, should we take a break?

00:23:02 ◼   ► - Let's do it. - Yes.

00:23:03 ◼   ► - This week's episode is brought to you by our friends

00:23:05 ◼   ► over at igloo who create the internet you'll actually like.

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00:23:27 ◼   ► it's going to look great on all of them. Your phone, your tablet, your laptop, your PC,

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00:23:36 ◼   ► be able to access igloo. You'll be able to manage your task lists, you'll be able to

00:23:40 ◼   ► access versions of files, and you'll even be able to update your colleagues with their

00:23:44 ◼   ► status update features and stuff like that. These days everything is mobile, your work

00:23:48 ◼   ► should be too, and igloo believes in this, their platform is built on that notion. Talking

00:23:53 ◼   ► about being mobile. People like to scatter their documents these days amongst the platforms

00:23:58 ◼   ► that they like and there are so many of them like Box, Google Drive and Dropbox. These

00:24:02 ◼   ► apps are great because they let you store things and they let you open them up in other

00:24:05 ◼   ► apps and stuff like that but the problem with putting secure files, business files into

00:24:10 ◼   ► these services is that you can end up in a scenario where there could be some sort of

00:24:14 ◼   ► security breach or you know you could just be breaching a company's agreement with you

00:24:19 ◼   ► by allowing people to have it on their own personal storage systems.

00:24:24 ◼   ► That is something that I know from working in a big corporation can be tricky.

00:24:28 ◼   ► So to combat this, igloo allows you to integrate those services into the igloo platform.

00:24:34 ◼   ► So you can still have all of the great security of igloo and keeping your customers happy

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00:24:51 ◼   ► But this isn't it for document stuff. igloo has built their own document collaboration

00:24:55 ◼   ► as well. So you can upload documents to igloo, people can comment on them and you can all

00:24:59 ◼   ► collaborate on them. And the great thing is that they have red receipts built in so if

00:25:03 ◼   ► you have some kind of HR document everybody needs to read you can upload it to igloo and

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00:25:24 ◼   ► for as long as you want so there's nothing stopping you. Go to igloosoftware.com/connected

00:25:29 ◼   ► thank you so much to igloo for their continued support of this show and allthingsstoppizza

00:25:34 ◼   ► you're just really running with that aren't you?

00:25:38 ◼   ► why not? I mean I've got I've maybe got another half an hour for it to be funny so

00:25:44 ◼   ► I'm just going to keep going with it. There you go. It's my turn to talk

00:25:48 ◼   ► after listening to you guys talk about home speakers

00:25:52 ◼   ► which are not so interesting to me. Tell you what is interesting to me,

00:25:55 ◼   ► Android. Android is interesting to me and

00:25:59 ◼   ► last week, to everybody's surprise, Google dropped the

00:26:03 ◼   ► first developer preview of Android N, the next version of Android, which will be

00:26:07 ◼   ► fully unveiled at Google I/O with more additional features.

00:26:10 ◼   ► But out of the blue, they dropped Android N.

00:26:13 ◼   ► And Android N has a couple of things in it

00:26:15 ◼   ► which are improvements for developers

00:26:17 ◼   ► and improvements for the users.

00:26:20 ◼   ► And one of the things that I want to talk about,

00:26:22 ◼   ► because this is something we talk about all the time

00:26:24 ◼   ► on this show these days, is split screen.

00:26:26 ◼   ► So Google have now built split screen into Android.

00:26:30 ◼   ► It didn't exist previously as a core pure Android feature.

00:26:34 ◼   ► Some other OEMs like Samsung have built it into their own

00:26:40 ◼   ► custom software, their own custom skins on top of Android, their forks as you may say,

00:26:45 ◼   ► but it has never been in Google's version. So I want to kind of talk to you guys about this

00:26:51 ◼   ► because I think it's a few interesting things. There's a few interesting design decisions that

00:26:54 ◼   ► Google have made which contrast with Apple. So one thing is it's available everywhere,

00:27:00 ◼   ► phones and tablets. So this is an interesting decision because I mean I have a Nexus 6P here,

00:27:08 ◼   ► which is the screen is about as big as the iPhone 6 Plus.

00:27:13 ◼   ► So I was wondering like is it that useful on a phone? And

00:27:17 ◼   ► one of the things that I've found from using an iPad more frequently, Federico

00:27:20 ◼   ► you can confirm if you feel this way as well,

00:27:22 ◼   ► is there are just times every now and then

00:27:25 ◼   ► where I wish I could look at two apps on my iPhone side by side just to check

00:27:29 ◼   ► something. Not to work in the same way that I do on

00:27:33 ◼   ► my iPad, but there are just things that happen

00:27:35 ◼   ► I'm like I wish I could see two things at once.

00:27:37 ◼   ► Do you ever feel that?

00:27:38 ◼   ► Sometimes, sometimes, especially with Twitter, yes.

00:27:42 ◼   ► Yeah, there are times where I'm doing something and I just want to be able to look at two apps at once.

00:27:47 ◼   ► Like maybe I'm looking at something in an email and I need to check a spreadsheet, right?

00:27:51 ◼   ► And I don't want to work like that a lot on my iPhone, but there are times where I want it.

00:27:55 ◼   ► And that's what you get here with this Android N split screen stuff.

00:28:01 ◼   ► So the way that you do it is quite interesting as well.

00:28:03 ◼   ► as well. You open an application, then you long press on the multitasking button and it

00:28:08 ◼   ► cuts the screen in half and then you can choose another application and you can look at them side

00:28:14 ◼   ► by side. You can adjust it with a little slider in the middle, very similar to iOS, and then you can

00:28:18 ◼   ► also turn your phone into landscape and look at the two apps side by side. And in landscape it

00:28:24 ◼   ► works a lot better and you just have kind of two tiny apps side by side to each other. So

00:28:30 ◼   ► It's definitely useful, I think. I think that there is some utility there and I'm hoping that

00:28:35 ◼   ► this is something that we might see on the iPhone at some point in the future. But one of the

00:28:40 ◼   ► reasons I find this implementation very interesting is Google are forcing this on all apps, pretty

00:28:48 ◼   ► much. There are a few exceptions that I've found. Some games won't work, but developers haven't had

00:28:54 ◼   ► to do anything specific to allow for this to occur.

00:28:59 ◼   ► This is very different to Apple and I think that this implementation, the implementation

00:29:04 ◼   ► routes that both of these companies decided, really kind of show their difference. Google

00:29:09 ◼   ► will take universal support over a little bit of weirdness, because some apps do break

00:29:13 ◼   ► and crash in places, but Apple will take less overall support for a feature for a better

00:29:18 ◼   ► experience where it does work.

00:29:21 ◼   ► And I don't know what the right approach is.

00:29:24 ◼   ► Yeah, I've thought a lot about that.

00:29:27 ◼   ► And it is interesting to me to see, like, we're seeing the downside of Apple's approach

00:29:33 ◼   ► a little bit right now, where apps that so many people depend on and love and use every

00:29:37 ◼   ► day, maybe not love, no one actually loves Google Docs, that users are stuck, right?

00:29:45 ◼   ► But then you're also seeing the downside of Google's approach, where some things right

00:29:49 ◼   ► now might be broken or weird or not work you know quite correctly so I don't

00:29:54 ◼   ► think either one is necessarily like bulletproof as far as issues but I do

00:29:59 ◼   ► think from the platform perspective I think Android's approach may be a little

00:30:03 ◼   ► bit better because it brings the whole platform forward together you know you're

00:30:08 ◼   ► not going to run into something major that doesn't major out that doesn't

00:30:13 ◼   ► support the feature because everything supports the feature out of the box and

00:30:17 ◼   ► and it's um, you're right, it is a different approach.

00:30:21 ◼   ► I think even Apple has treated the Mac and iOS

00:30:25 ◼   ► differently in this regard, that they'll do things

00:30:27 ◼   ► on OS X like Time Machine or in OS X Lion

00:30:31 ◼   ► they changed the way Save As works, or God knows why.

00:30:34 ◼   ► And that was just the way it worked, right?

00:30:36 ◼   ► The system changed and so your app changed with it.

00:30:39 ◼   ► And iOS, Apple has been much more conservative

00:30:42 ◼   ► saying, hey, you know, even with iOS 7

00:30:44 ◼   ► we have this new design, you're not even gonna

00:30:46 ◼   ► get the keyboard until you build against iOS 7 right the very very conservative

00:30:51 ◼   ► approach to make sure that third-party apps remain stable or as stable as

00:30:57 ◼   ► possible under Apple's watch. So I'm not I'm not sure which way is right I think

00:31:03 ◼   ► from the platform perspective Google and the way Apple treats OS X is probably

00:31:07 ◼   ► better but I think from the from the stability and the you know perceived

00:31:14 ◼   ► quality standpoint that the way iOS does it may be better. So that's probably, you know,

00:31:19 ◼   ► just kind of pick your poison. Yeah, and that's exactly what it is, right?

00:31:22 ◼   ► And as I said, I think it speaks a lot to those two different companies and the way

00:31:27 ◼   ► that they work. But I've got to say the ability to know that the majority of my apps are just

00:31:32 ◼   ► going to work like that is great. And like this isn't an accident. Part of the way that

00:31:38 ◼   ► Android has been built for a long time is with these size classes, which Apple has adopted

00:31:42 ◼   ► more recently. And that's why it works like this because so many applications have already

00:31:47 ◼   ► started to adopt this because it's just the way Android works because of all the different

00:31:51 ◼   ► screen sizes anyway. So it's not like it was an accident, this has been a long time coming,

00:31:56 ◼   ► so now this is kind of just one of the results of that. But it is very interesting, there's

00:32:03 ◼   ► a couple of other things that I really like about this. So, well, one, Google Docs works.

00:32:07 ◼   ► So I have that in split screen. This is something you'll like Federico, you can have multiple

00:32:11 ◼   ► Chrome tabs side by side. That's nice. Because Chrome tabs from Android M, they became like,

00:32:21 ◼   ► when you look at multitasking, instead of seeing Chrome as just one app, it shows you

00:32:26 ◼   ► every single tab as well in the multitasking view, so it breaks them down. So you could

00:32:31 ◼   ► look, say you were on the allthings.pizza website, then you went to Slack to tell your

00:32:34 ◼   ► friends how awesome it was, and then you opened another Chrome tab. When you open multitasking,

00:32:39 ◼   ► they will be stacked chronologically like that.

00:32:41 ◼   ► So I initially didn't like that change.

00:32:44 ◼   ► I thought that that was kind of weird to say that,

00:32:47 ◼   ► like Chrome tabs are as important individually as apps.

00:32:52 ◼   ► But now when I look at a change like this,

00:32:54 ◼   ► I'm like, oh no, that makes sense.

00:32:55 ◼   ► 'Cause now that has enabled the ability

00:32:57 ◼   ► to look at two Chrome tabs side by side,

00:32:59 ◼   ► which is something that, you know,

00:33:00 ◼   ► I have to kind of hack around that on iOS

00:33:04 ◼   ► by looking using two browsers, which is kind of strange.

00:33:08 ◼   ► is another thing that you're gonna like Federica, you can drag and drop data including text.

00:33:12 ◼   ► Yeah, I saw that. So how does that work in practice?

00:33:15 ◼   ► So I was just playing around with it then, I opened it with a client and a Slack client

00:33:19 ◼   ► and I wrote out a message, I highlighted the message and just held the text for a moment

00:33:24 ◼   ► and then I could just drag it to another text input window. It's pretty simple. It works

00:33:27 ◼   ► exactly as you'd want. I didn't have to try and look up anything to see how that worked,

00:33:31 ◼   ► it just worked the way I expected that it would.

00:33:34 ◼   ► Nice. That's gonna, that has to happen on iOS eventually.

00:33:38 ◼   ► Yeah. So this is my feeling, right? This is very early, right? Which is why there's some

00:33:43 ◼   ► of it that are a bit wonky, but this fact that it works so well now is a credit to Google

00:33:49 ◼   ► and the way that they've built their operating system and thinking about these things. And

00:33:53 ◼   ► there are a couple of features in here that I really hope that Apple adopt for iOS 10.

00:33:59 ◼   ► 10. But it works surprisingly well, and I think that it's very interesting. And I have

00:34:07 ◼   ► wanted to for a while to maybe like do a little switch to Android experiment again. And as

00:34:12 ◼   ► I've mentioned, I think on this show one of my issues was using a tablet. But now all

00:34:17 ◼   ► the tablet apps will be split screen too, so that might make it a bit easier if I do

00:34:21 ◼   ► decide to do this. Something that makes this stuff easier for people like me, like installing

00:34:27 ◼   ► Android N is for the first time now. Google is allowing over the air install and updates

00:34:33 ◼   ► for the developer beta's. Previously you had to like plug it into a computer and run a

00:34:41 ◼   ► bunch of commands that terrified me and I always got wrong even though Android developers

00:34:45 ◼   ► tell me it's really easy, it's terrifying for someone like me. Now all you need to do

00:34:48 ◼   ► is just go to the developer portal. It shows you what devices are linked to your account

00:34:52 ◼   ► and you just say I would like to install on that one. You check for a software update

00:34:56 ◼   ► and installs. It's very easy to do. Actually kind of easier than Apple's new way of doing

00:35:01 ◼   ► it as well. You don't download a little profile, you just log on and it's like "oh we know

00:35:06 ◼   ► that this is a phone attached to your account, would you like to install the beta on it?"

00:35:10 ◼   ► and you say yes. I like that, that was really nice. They've redesigned the notifications

00:35:15 ◼   ► tray, I'm still trying to get my head around this. One thing that they're enabling is quick

00:35:20 ◼   ► replies now, which has obviously been in iOS for a little bit. This is a new thing for

00:35:26 ◼   ► them. I think it might have been in the Hangouts app previously, but that was the only one

00:35:29 ◼   ► that had it, so you couldn't reply from notifications. They're doing bundling of notifications as

00:35:34 ◼   ► well now, so if you have a bunch of Slack messages, they bundle them up into one and

00:35:38 ◼   ► then you can kind of tap to expand them. I actually think that's quite nice because now

00:35:42 ◼   ► when I look at my notifications screen, it's a lot cleaner. They're doing their own version

00:35:48 ◼   ► of Control Center which is pretty cool. So in the notifications tray now you can pull

00:35:52 ◼   ► down very quickly and there's a bunch of buttons. So I have Wi-Fi, Battery, Do Not Disturb and

00:35:58 ◼   ► Flashlight but you can customize those. You can drag and drop the order around and drop

00:36:03 ◼   ► in whatever you want to be, the quick actions which is great and they have a bunch of them.

00:36:07 ◼   ► Like I can have Bluetooth enabled, I can enable Hotspot, I can enable airplane mode. That

00:36:12 ◼   ► can all be customized because that's what Android's all about.

00:36:16 ◼   ► You know, I got an email just last night about my control center article from January.

00:36:20 ◼   ► People are really mad about that.

00:36:23 ◼   ► But I think Android is doing it better.

00:36:25 ◼   ► Apple fans.

00:36:26 ◼   ► Yep, sorry to say.

00:36:28 ◼   ► And then the main other thing that they're talking about, which I don't know too much

00:36:31 ◼   ► about, is additions to what Google call "Doze."

00:36:36 ◼   ► And Doze is a system to try and reduce battery life drain.

00:36:42 ◼   ► So when your phone is basically doing some stuff in the background, like the refresh

00:36:49 ◼   ► and stuff, like we have on, what is that called on iOS now?

00:36:53 ◼   ► The battery saving mode.

00:36:54 ◼   ► Low power mode?

00:36:55 ◼   ► Low power mode.

00:36:56 ◼   ► So it's basically that, but they try and do more of it constantly to reduce the drain

00:37:00 ◼   ► of the battery over time, and it tries to work out your patterns of using it, is my

00:37:04 ◼   ► understanding.

00:37:05 ◼   ► So they're doing more there.

00:37:07 ◼   ► And Google is promising more announcements and more exciting things for N at I/O.

00:37:12 ◼   ► So I think it's pretty cool.

00:37:14 ◼   ► I think it's cool that they've announced it now.

00:37:15 ◼   ► I'm using it on my 6P.

00:37:17 ◼   ► It's very stable.

00:37:18 ◼   ► And I think there's a few interesting things there.

00:37:20 ◼   ► I like to keep my eye on what Google's doing.

00:37:22 ◼   ► I think that this is an interesting development.

00:37:24 ◼   ► So there's my Android segment.

00:37:27 ◼   ► The closest I can get to imagining split screen on the iPhone is reachability.

00:37:33 ◼   ► Remember that feature?

00:37:34 ◼   ► Yeah, I still use it sometimes to access the notification tray thing.

00:37:39 ◼   ► Yeah, me too.

00:37:41 ◼   ► I'm trying to imagine if maybe, you know, having two apps on the iPhone with that kind

00:37:47 ◼   ► of gesture would make sense.

00:37:49 ◼   ► I don't know, the idea of a screen on the iPhone sounds odd to me initially, but I can

00:37:56 ◼   ► totally understand why you like it.

00:37:58 ◼   ► You know, I guess it's difficult to imagine that, because we're still thinking of iPhones

00:38:05 ◼   ► as you do one thing at a time type of devices, but instead a lot of people are using their

00:38:11 ◼   ► iPhones as computers.

00:38:14 ◼   ► People do spreadsheets, people do, you know, they write essays or blog posts on an iPhone.

00:38:21 ◼   ► So it's not ridiculous to say "well I would like to see multitasking on an iPhone",

00:38:27 ◼   ► you know?

00:38:28 ◼   ► I don't know if Apple likes this type of approach, but especially after listening to

00:38:36 ◼   ► you, it makes sense.

00:38:37 ◼   ► I have to say, it makes sense to me.

00:38:39 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't think that you would want to do this a lot, right?

00:38:44 ◼   ► But there is benefit to being able to check something quickly.

00:38:49 ◼   ► Maybe this could be something that just exists on the larger of the funds, because it makes

00:38:54 ◼   ► more sense there.

00:38:55 ◼   ► Who knows?

00:38:56 ◼   ► Probably.

00:38:57 ◼   ► Who knows how they want to do it.

00:38:58 ◼   ► Like, that's how landscape support is now, right?

00:39:00 ◼   ► It's only on the Plus.

00:39:01 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:39:02 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:39:03 ◼   ► I could see them, if they do it, do it that way, where, "Hey, we're already treating the

00:39:09 ◼   ► Plus a little bit differently.

00:39:10 ◼   ► We already did some iPad-like things."

00:39:12 ◼   ► And yeah, I agree with you guys.

00:39:15 ◼   ► not something I want to dive into every

00:39:16 ◼   ► day but I could see it being useful to

00:39:19 ◼   ► from time to time just to get something

00:39:22 ◼   ► done real quick.

00:39:23 ◼   ► Alright bring us back to Apple stuff.

00:39:25 ◼   ► Okay so I spent some time this week

00:39:28 ◼   ► thinking about the Mac as I often do. I go

00:39:31 ◼   ► into my hammock and I think

00:39:35 ◼   ► about the Mac just for hours and I kind

00:39:37 ◼   ► of came up with three things that I

00:39:39 ◼   ► think would be interesting to see Apple

00:39:40 ◼   ► bring back to the Mac and that's of course

00:39:43 ◼   ► borrowing a phrase from an Apple event

00:39:44 ◼   ► event several years ago but I came up with three things that as I have used my

00:39:50 ◼   ► iPad Pro more and as the iPad has sort of eaten into some categories of work

00:39:56 ◼   ► that I do some things that I would like to see to see on the Mac. The Mac is still

00:40:00 ◼   ► my main machine I don't see that changing anytime soon but there are

00:40:04 ◼   ► things on iOS that that I think OS X could benefit from and one of them and I

00:40:09 ◼   ► think the one that is the easiest solve is actually a third-party app called

00:40:12 ◼   ► helium that basically does this is picture-in-picture and so as I you know

00:40:19 ◼   ► I write a lot of these like Apple history things alright scripts or videos

00:40:22 ◼   ► I will be watching a video often on YouTube and be taking notes on it or

00:40:28 ◼   ► finding other links that I need you know to read and sort of gathering

00:40:32 ◼   ► information as I write and it's it's a funny how that has really moved to the

00:40:37 ◼   ► iPad because of picture-in-picture so I can open up you know a video on YouTube

00:40:42 ◼   ► and I can send it to CornerTube, which Federico pointed me to, and I can get

00:40:46 ◼   ► picture-in-picture. So I can have the video playing, I can have one writer with

00:40:49 ◼   ► my notes, and I can have Safari open, gathering links as I go. And doing that

00:40:56 ◼   ► on the Mac feels really old-fashioned all of a sudden, because YouTube is

00:41:00 ◼   ► locked away in a browser tab, right? And I've always gotten around it by

00:41:04 ◼   ► having a YouTube video either in another browser or another browser window, so I

00:41:08 ◼   ► between it and my working tabs but it feels like constrained somehow. So anyways

00:41:13 ◼   ► Helium is a cool app, we'll put a link in the show notes to it, that if you're

00:41:17 ◼   ► looking for picture-in-picture on the Mac a bunch of people on Twitter pointed

00:41:19 ◼   ► me to it. It's free on the App Store. You basically paste in a very much like

00:41:25 ◼   ► CornerTube on iOS. You feed it a video link and then it basically just plays

00:41:31 ◼   ► the video itself with no other Chrome just in a floating window very much

00:41:35 ◼   ► like QuickTime does. It's a clever little app. I think it's a nice, it's like a good

00:41:41 ◼   ► example of something in the Mac App Store that does one thing really well and is

00:41:45 ◼   ► just you know super super simple. The other two were a little more a little

00:41:52 ◼   ► more technical. The second one is UIKit which you may be familiar with is

00:41:57 ◼   ► basically the front-end framework used by most iOS developers. It's what

00:42:04 ◼   ► something like Overcast uses to build its interface. That's very high level. On

00:42:11 ◼   ► the Mac they use AppKit which is much older. AppKit has its roots way back in

00:42:16 ◼   ► Next Step 100 years ago. And they spoke about this on a recent episode of

00:42:22 ◼   ► under the radar that this is a hurdle for an iOS developer to bring something

00:42:29 ◼   ► to the Mac. They can't reuse much of their front-end code that they you have

00:42:34 ◼   ► to sort of refactor everything using the toolset that AppKit gives you and

00:42:39 ◼   ► clearly UIKit can't just be ported directly right? UIKit is built all

00:42:44 ◼   ► around touch you don't have touch on the Mac but I do think that there's an

00:42:49 ◼   ► opportunity here for Apple to make it easier for iOS developers to bring their

00:42:55 ◼   ► apps back to the Mac and this is something we've spoken about a lot we

00:42:59 ◼   ► spoke about just a couple weeks ago with that you know Mac OS X has a dead

00:43:02 ◼   ► platform comment that the third-party ecosystem for Mac software is slower and

00:43:11 ◼   ► perhaps slowing down compared to the iPhone and even the iPad and you look at

00:43:17 ◼   ► something like, we'll keep using Overcast as an example, that has an iOS app, it's

00:43:23 ◼   ► great on the iPhone, it's good on the iPad, there's a web component, but a lot

00:43:27 ◼   ► of people, I know Casey, Alyssa's talked about this for a long time, would like it on the

00:43:29 ◼   ► Mac. I would like it on the Mac. And there's a hurdle there that, you know, may

00:43:38 ◼   ► not be worth it. Clearly in market estimation it's not worth it yet. And I

00:43:42 ◼   ► think that that is something that may change, I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but

00:43:45 ◼   ► but could be different if UIKit were to come to OS X.

00:43:50 ◼   ► Now Federico, you spend obviously a lot of time

00:43:56 ◼   ► talking with iOS developers, covering iOS apps.

00:43:59 ◼   ► I mean, what are some other examples that you guys have

00:44:03 ◼   ► of like, is there an iOS app you guys would just love

00:44:06 ◼   ► to have on the Mac?

00:44:07 ◼   ► Federico, maybe you're a bad example, but,

00:44:09 ◼   ► like I think this is something people want.

00:44:12 ◼   ► Like there are iOS apps that are great

00:44:15 ◼   ► that would be nice on the Mac.

00:44:16 ◼   ► I mean, look at Fantastical, which, in my opinion at least,

00:44:19 ◼   ► is the best calendar app on iOS, just bar none.

00:44:22 ◼   ► And it's great on the Mac.

00:44:23 ◼   ► And I'm sure that was not an easy process

00:44:26 ◼   ► to build a full-blown Mac calendar application,

00:44:31 ◼   ► even though they had years of experience doing it on mobile.

00:44:34 ◼   ► Do you guys think that this is,

00:44:37 ◼   ► could this make a difference?

00:44:38 ◼   ► Is it worth Apple even investing in this?

00:44:40 ◼   ► - I think it would definitely allow some developers

00:44:44 ◼   ► to create Mac versions of their iOS apps.

00:44:48 ◼   ► And I'm looking at my iPhone's home screen right now.

00:44:52 ◼   ► Something like Spark or editorial even.

00:44:57 ◼   ► There's a Reddit client that I really like.

00:45:00 ◼   ► It's called Narwhal.

00:45:02 ◼   ► There's many, many iOS apps that don't have a Mac version.

00:45:06 ◼   ► And I would say not necessarily because it wouldn't make sense

00:45:09 ◼   ► on the Mac, just because it would require building

00:45:13 ◼   ► completely different architecture and a different app at every level.

00:45:18 ◼   ► And so for some developers I think it would definitely help in transitioning over to the

00:45:23 ◼   ► Mac and even bringing a functional version of the same app, maybe isn't as pro-looking

00:45:29 ◼   ► as more advanced desktop apps, but it doesn't have to be, because having a basic version

00:45:35 ◼   ► that runs on the Mac and respects some of the Mac's basic UI principles would make sense.

00:45:41 ◼   ► I feel like there's some instances where iOS apps can only run on iOS and would only make sense on iOS.

00:45:52 ◼   ► You know, apps that use the gyroscope or apps that use the camera or apps that are based on location services,

00:45:59 ◼   ► apps that require, you know, multi-touch in a different way.

00:46:04 ◼   ► Some of those apps, even with the, you know, framework unification across iOS and macOS,

00:46:10 ◼   ► I feel like wouldn't be possible on the Mac without, you know, a major rewrite anyway.

00:46:19 ◼   ► So, I guess what I would like to see is, I agree with you, I think there should be a way to use UIKit on the desktop.

00:46:29 ◼   ► Because for some basic apps that don't have fancy iPhone features, I would like to have those apps on the Mac as well.

00:46:38 ◼   ► or at least I would like to know that there's a way for developers to easily bring them over to the Mac.

00:46:44 ◼   ► But some other apps, I feel like even with the framework unification,

00:46:50 ◼   ► they wouldn't make much sense on the Mac because of the unique iPhone and iPad features.

00:46:55 ◼   ► I think as someone who, like for me, the most valuable tools that I use are cross-platform,

00:47:01 ◼   ► So something like OmniFocus or something like Reader even or the RSS service I use behind

00:47:09 ◼   ► it, something that I can get to my data anywhere I sit down to work.

00:47:14 ◼   ► And I think that UIKit could help with that.

00:47:19 ◼   ► It's clearly not a silver bullet, right?

00:47:22 ◼   ► There's still lots of issues with, you know, is it worth the developer's time?

00:47:27 ◼   ► Can they make the money back?

00:47:28 ◼   ► Do they, you know, have to deal with the Mac App Store?

00:47:30 ◼   ► A lot of people don't want to do that.

00:47:34 ◼   ► But I think it would open doors that aren't open right now.

00:47:39 ◼   ► And that was sort of my point.

00:47:42 ◼   ► The last of the three things I mentioned was all flash storage.

00:47:46 ◼   ► And you can still go today, the Mac Mini, the iMac, and then of course the 13-inch MacBook

00:47:53 ◼   ► Pro, the old one that's still for sale.

00:47:55 ◼   ► comes with spinning hard drives or fusion drives and

00:47:59 ◼   ► I tangled with some people yesterday about the fusion drive thing and writing a big follow-up post but

00:48:04 ◼   ► my basic

00:48:07 ◼   ► gist of this was like way back in

00:48:09 ◼   ► 2010 when Apple redid the MacBook Airs actually, you know announced those at this back to the Mac event

00:48:16 ◼   ► So much of that design was built around solid-state

00:48:21 ◼   ► storage and the MacBook Air was really for a lot of people myself included the first time I

00:48:27 ◼   ► really used an SSD and

00:48:30 ◼   ► it brought flash storage and notebooks to the masses in a way that that no one else really had and

00:48:37 ◼   ► here we are six years later and

00:48:40 ◼   ► basically, you can still get a spinning hard drive and a bunch of machines and if you get an iMac you have to deal with the

00:48:50 ◼   ► 400 RPM drive, which are terribly slow and

00:48:54 ◼   ► It it really is crazy to me that Apple

00:48:58 ◼   ► Hasn't moved the the ball forward

00:49:01 ◼   ► With this yet and and you know, there's a lot of benefits diffusion drives

00:49:05 ◼   ► Like I went into it in my article yesterday like it's great if you have small amounts of data or it's great if you want

00:49:10 ◼   ► speed

00:49:11 ◼   ► But also a lot of capacity without spending a thousand dollars on a you know

00:49:15 ◼   ► a huge SSD from Apple.

00:49:17 ◼   ► 'Cause Apple's SSD pricing is way out of line,

00:49:19 ◼   ► they need to revisit that.

00:49:20 ◼   ► But my point in this was, you know,

00:49:25 ◼   ► the Mac experience is so much better

00:49:28 ◼   ► if you're running from flash storage.

00:49:30 ◼   ► And that comes from iOS.

00:49:32 ◼   ► I mean, at that event, he was like,

00:49:34 ◼   ► "What happens if a MacBook and an iPad got it on?"

00:49:36 ◼   ► Well, you get a MacBook Air.

00:49:37 ◼   ► Like, that's an actual quote from Steve Jobs.

00:49:40 ◼   ► Actually said it on stage.

00:49:41 ◼   ► Just crazy.

00:49:44 ◼   ► And you know the things like Instant On and crazy standby life.

00:49:49 ◼   ► I mean before this if you had a spinning hard disk machine you put it to sleep.

00:49:55 ◼   ► You know you want to get great standby life now we get just weeks and weeks and weeks

00:49:59 ◼   ► on these machines because this solid state technology allows the entire system to be

00:50:05 ◼   ► much more modern and it just kills me like you can go buy a new 27 inch 5k Retina iMac

00:50:13 ◼   ► and get a spinning disk in it and it's just it's a subpar experience for what I

00:50:20 ◼   ► think is the flagship Mac you know I think that that running machine is is

00:50:24 ◼   ► the pinnacle of Mac design at this point and to cripple it with the spinning hard

00:50:29 ◼   ► drive today in 2016 is just bananas and yes there's cost issues you know

00:50:35 ◼   ► I think more important than cost is used to Apple is the margin issue like they

00:50:37 ◼   ► could do this and they keep the prices where they are but they would eat into their

00:50:40 ◼   ► margin which they don't want to do. I think that it's another example of like

00:50:44 ◼   ► if Apple either is willing to charge a little bit more or willing to eat it a

00:50:50 ◼   ► little bit more they could have products that are much better experience and so

00:50:55 ◼   ► I don't know it's some stuff I've been thinking about I think that obviously

00:50:58 ◼   ► the next couple weeks and we really focus on iOS with some new devices I'm

00:51:02 ◼   ► you know hoping for some Skylake MacBook Pros but you know the Mac is is the back

00:51:08 ◼   ► seat now and I accept that and understand that but I still think that there's room

00:51:14 ◼   ► for Apple to make investments in it.

00:51:16 ◼   ► The fusion drive thing is one thing, right, because it's at least some solid state, but

00:51:22 ◼   ► the fact that there are just flat out hard drives spinning disks in brand new Macs in

00:51:30 ◼   ► new lines seems crazy. Like I understand why it might exist in that 13 inch MacBook Pro,

00:51:37 ◼   ► right? That, that weird old MacBook Pro with the optical disc in it.

00:51:41 ◼   ► Cause it's just like, look,

00:51:42 ◼   ► that machine just needs to be as cheap as possible for the type of people that

00:51:45 ◼   ► need to buy that. But a new computer introduced like the 27 inch,

00:51:50 ◼   ► 5k, it just, there's so much amazing technology in that machine.

00:51:55 ◼   ► Why would you put a spinning hard disc in it? Like it just seems,

00:51:59 ◼   ► it just seems crazy. It really doesn't seem like a smart thing to do.

00:52:03 ◼   ► Like if somebody wants to do it, like,

00:52:05 ◼   ► think that should be an option, right? Like it comes with 512 or whatever and

00:52:10 ◼   ► then you can put a 1 terabyte hard disk in it if you really want to, but as a

00:52:15 ◼   ► starting configuration it seems just wasteful of all the power that you're

00:52:22 ◼   ► gonna get from that machine. I totally agree because you're gonna be

00:52:26 ◼   ► hamstrung by that disk I/O and it's um I think clearly it's about the cost you

00:52:33 ◼   ► know that I think there's a school of thought that these retina machines are

00:52:36 ◼   ► more expensive for Apple to build but they didn't want to measure the price

00:52:42 ◼   ► points too much and so they're already eating into the margin a little bit

00:52:45 ◼   ► which is maybe why they've done this. On the smaller Fusion drives the SSD

00:52:49 ◼   ► portion is actually much smaller than it used to be which is lame and I think

00:52:54 ◼   ► they're just struggling to hit those percentages they want but I would argue

00:52:58 ◼   ► you that maybe there are more important things than 30% margin on iMac.

00:53:02 ◼   ► I agree.

00:53:03 ◼   ► In lieu of a second sponsor this week, I just want to talk very briefly about the RelayFM

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00:53:57 ◼   ► So I realized today that basically this show has been three pet topics. So I spoke about Android,

00:54:06 ◼   ► Stephen spoke about the Mac and now Federico gets to talk about text editors.

00:54:10 ◼   ► Yes, so just quickly because I presume this is going to be a recurring theme over the next few weeks if you guys don't mind.

00:54:19 ◼   ► Text editor corner with Federico.

00:54:21 ◼   ► Yes, so just a quick update. Last weekend, Stephen, Myke and I had a Slack room, a Slack channel where we talked, we planned the show.

00:54:31 ◼   ► And I was having a crisis over the weekend because this new app, Ulysses, is that how

00:54:39 ◼   ► you say it?

00:54:40 ◼   ► Ulysses?

00:54:41 ◼   ► Ulysses is how I would say it.

00:54:43 ◼   ► It feels like a close to Italian word anyway.

00:54:45 ◼   ► So you probably would.

00:54:46 ◼   ► It's much better.

00:54:47 ◼   ► It's much better in Italian.

00:54:48 ◼   ► Ulysses.

00:54:49 ◼   ► Oh, there you go.

00:54:50 ◼   ► Why are you even saying it any other way?

00:54:52 ◼   ► You know, because I don't get to decide.

00:54:54 ◼   ► Well, now you can.

00:54:56 ◼   ► On this show, you say it the way that you say it that I can't say.

00:54:59 ◼   ► Should I really say Ulysses?

00:55:00 ◼   ► Ulysses? No, come on, come on. Anyway, I was having a crisis because Ulysses came out and

00:55:09 ◼   ► I was intrigued. But I was also at the stage where I had something like five or six text

00:55:17 ◼   ► editors on my iPhone and iPad, because as connected listeners know, I've been trying

00:55:22 ◼   ► to get a modern opinion of all of them. So I was talking to Myke and Steve and I was

00:55:28 ◼   ► like what should I do because each one of these apps has a feature that I like. An editorial

00:55:35 ◼   ► came out with a new beta for iOS 9 and the iPad Pro and I was really struggling to understand

00:55:41 ◼   ► what it is that I actually need. So I sent Myke and Steven a series of screenshots over

00:55:48 ◼   ► a few minutes of me... It was really sad. Of me deleting every single text editor from

00:55:55 ◼   ► my iPhone, except editorial, because I was sure that I was going to use just editorial.

00:56:03 ◼   ► That's what I've always used, despite my absence from editorial for the past few months. I

00:56:10 ◼   ► liked the idea of going back home, you know, back with editorial. And for a couple of days

00:56:18 ◼   ► I was okay, I was fine. And then I realized I was preparing an article about...

00:56:26 ◼   ► actually two articles. I was writing one about Overcast, which came out yesterday,

00:56:32 ◼   ► and I was preparing an article about Spotify, because I've been trying Spotify again,

00:56:37 ◼   ► so I was starting to put together some ideas. And I realized often when I think of, you know,

00:56:45 ◼   ► articles, they start from a couple of notes and a few screenshots. So I take a screenshot

00:56:53 ◼   ► of a feature, of a feature or maybe of a change in an app, and that starts as kind of my angle

00:57:00 ◼   ► for the story, you know, my starting point. But too often I lose track of those screenshots,

00:57:08 ◼   ► because the Photos app doesn't let me organize screenshots besides albums and likes. So often

00:57:15 ◼   ► I take these screenshots and eventually I forget about them, I don't know why I took

00:57:20 ◼   ► them and I lose the idea that I wanted to base the article upon. So I realized, you

00:57:27 ◼   ► know what app lets me attach items to documents? Well, that's Ulysses. So this is a couple

00:57:38 ◼   ► of days after I deleted the app from my device. And I realized, well, you know, maybe I was

00:57:44 ◼   ► too quick to judge. Maybe I should actually try it. I downloaded the app back again on

00:57:51 ◼   ► my iPhone and iPad, and I tried to use it for Mac stories and for Club Mac stories.

00:57:59 ◼   ► And initially it was very difficult to accept some of the unique things in Ulysses. The

00:58:07 ◼   ► first one is it doesn't have Dropbox sync. It only uses iCloud. But again, a lot of people

00:58:13 ◼   ► were like "You know iCloud sync in Ulysses is super solid, never been a problem for me".

00:58:20 ◼   ► The other problem was it doesn't use standard Markdown when you create articles, or as the

00:58:30 ◼   ► app calls them "sheets", which are like documents. It uses this special version of Markdown,

00:58:35 ◼   ► which is called Markdown XL, which is like a fork of standard Markdown, it's got a couple

00:58:41 ◼   ► of different things with the formatting and the way that you insert links and footnotes

00:58:47 ◼   ► in a document. So those two issues were practical and also problems on principle, because I

00:58:56 ◼   ► don't like the idea of not using a standard or not using Dropbox. But I guess I just was

00:59:05 ◼   ► too into the idea of having attachments, having notes in a document, being able to take images

00:59:12 ◼   ► out of my photos app and into the text editor, that I started using it and I went a little

00:59:20 ◼   ► nuts about it. It was late at night, it was like 4am, I was playing around with Ulysses

00:59:28 ◼   ► and I realized that I could install custom fonts in the app. And I've always liked,

00:59:36 ◼   ► you know, IA Writer uses a font called Nitti. And this Nitti font, which I really, really

00:59:44 ◼   ► like, is not available for free. And it's like 200 euros to buy. So it was late at night,

00:59:52 ◼   ► I was in a sort of tech-studding fugue state.

00:59:56 ◼   ► So I went online and I bought the fond family.

01:00:00 ◼   ► Oh my god! And everyone, again,

01:00:04 ◼   ► we go through this time and time again and you guys say

01:00:08 ◼   ► that I'm the one who has the fondest. No, hold on, this was for productivity, Myke.

01:00:13 ◼   ► No, it didn't make you more productive. Yes it does. It's purely aesthetic.

01:00:17 ◼   ► No, it makes my eyes better.

01:00:20 ◼   ► Incorrect.

01:00:21 ◼   ► Okay, well, whatever.

01:00:22 ◼   ► So I went online, I bought the font family and I used any font on iOS to install the

01:00:29 ◼   ► font.

01:00:30 ◼   ► Then I went on my Mac, because you can only create custom themes for Ulysses on the Mac,

01:00:36 ◼   ► and I created a theme that sort of resembles editorial and also uses different colors to

01:00:43 ◼   ► highlight different types of markdown syntax.

01:00:46 ◼   ► So I got blue links, yellow images, red footnotes, which I feel like really helps me in the editing

01:00:54 ◼   ► stage because it lets me catch different items more quickly, instead of having every single

01:01:00 ◼   ► item highlighted in blue, while each one has a different color now, which is nice.

01:01:05 ◼   ► So with the custom theme, with the custom preview for the Mac Sorry HTML, the custom

01:01:11 ◼   ► I came up with a really nice environment. I really like it.

01:01:17 ◼   ► I set up groups for Max Stories articles, Max Stories linked items, and Club Max Stories stuff for the newsletter.

01:01:28 ◼   ► I've been using it for like a week at this point, maybe five, six days actually, in what you call it, production purposes.

01:01:39 ◼   ► I came up with a few workflows to publish to WordPress, to save a draft to Dropbox as

01:01:48 ◼   ► a second backup, just to make sure.

01:01:52 ◼   ► And you know, it's nice, it's fine, iCloud sync is awesome, it actually works, and I

01:02:01 ◼   ► saved drafts to Dropbox, so peace of mind, I'm okay.

01:02:07 ◼   ► And the editing tools in Ulysses are actually very nice.

01:02:11 ◼   ► I know that on principle I shouldn't like a non-standard plain text fork of Markdown,

01:02:17 ◼   ► but in practice it's really nice.

01:02:20 ◼   ► Adding footnotes is faster, adding links is faster, and actually when editing URLs get

01:02:29 ◼   ► out of the way because you have to double tap a link to show the actual link.

01:02:34 ◼   ► So the document is not cluttered with all these links.

01:02:38 ◼   ► There's a bunch of toolbars that you can use, there's menus, shortcuts, it's very nice on

01:02:43 ◼   ► the iPad Pro, and I think I actually like it.

01:02:50 ◼   ► The separation of different types of documents in groups helps me feel more organized, if

01:03:00 ◼   ► that makes sense.

01:03:01 ◼   ► When I'm in the Club Maxories group, I only see Club Maxories stuff, so it's easier to see all the content coming to a Maxories Weekly issue, for example.

01:03:09 ◼   ► When I'm in the Maxories group, I can see all my linked items, I can see all the articles that I'm working on.

01:03:16 ◼   ► It's nice!

01:03:17 ◼   ► Now, I know that I'm always going to need a tutorial to be installed, because of the more complex automation.

01:03:25 ◼   ► I mean, I use the tutorial to generate my invoices, for the business.

01:03:29 ◼   ► I use editorial to manage max service deals, to put together the price drops and to tweet

01:03:36 ◼   ► app discounts.

01:03:37 ◼   ► So I'll always need editorial for these advanced things, but I feel like Ulysses for writers,

01:03:46 ◼   ► for people who write and to organize writing, it's not terrible, it's actually pretty great,

01:03:53 ◼   ► and now this is the stage where I'm at.

01:03:56 ◼   ► This is what's going on right now.

01:03:59 ◼   ► I will keep you guys posted I guess.

01:04:04 ◼   ► This is intriguing, I've been looking at it in the App Store every now and then and I'm

01:04:08 ◼   ► just trying out editorial again because I don't do a lot of writing but I do quite a...

01:04:15 ◼   ► I do like the scripts and stuff, like I write scripts and stuff like that and they're all

01:04:19 ◼   ► written in Markdown.

01:04:20 ◼   ► So I like to have a good app for it but this custom flavour of Markdown turns me off a

01:04:26 ◼   ► a little bit, I think.

01:04:29 ◼   ► Yeah, I totally understand.

01:04:31 ◼   ► I only kind of remember it, right?

01:04:33 ◼   ► Because I don't use it enough.

01:04:35 ◼   ► The things that I know, I know them now.

01:04:38 ◼   ► I've learned them.

01:04:39 ◼   ► I know how to make a list, I know how to make something bold,

01:04:41 ◼   ► italics and a link.

01:04:42 ◼   ► Like, they just know those things.

01:04:43 ◼   ► That's really the same.

01:04:45 ◼   ► That syntax is the same.

01:04:47 ◼   ► It's just some differences for footnotes.

01:04:49 ◼   ► But what really matters is that when you export a document

01:04:53 ◼   ► and you choose I want to export as Markdown,

01:04:55 ◼   ► you get the standard plain text markdown.

01:04:58 ◼   ► So it's just when you write, because they

01:05:00 ◼   ► want you to save time, the syntax is a little different,

01:05:04 ◼   ► but not for italics, not for lists, just for links

01:05:08 ◼   ► and footnotes, really.

01:05:10 ◼   ► But when you export, even those custom things

01:05:13 ◼   ► go back to the standard way, so you

01:05:15 ◼   ► can use the markdown in any app.

01:05:16 ◼   ► And that's why I use workflow, because I can export as markdown.

01:05:20 ◼   ► It gets the normal markdown plain text,

01:05:23 ◼   ► and then I used my workflow to go to WordPress.

01:05:26 ◼   ► But yeah, I understand why some people don't like the idea,

01:05:30 ◼   ► and I totally understand why some people are put off

01:05:32 ◼   ► by the iCloud only sync.

01:05:34 ◼   ► I don't understand if the team is working on Dropbox support

01:05:37 ◼   ► because on the Mac, you can't add a Dropbox folder.

01:05:41 ◼   ► On iOS, you cannot.

01:05:42 ◼   ► I don't understand if they plan to,

01:05:44 ◼   ► or if it's only going to be a Mac only feature,

01:05:46 ◼   ► but you know what also makes me optimistic about this

01:05:50 ◼   ► is that it's a small team, it's 11 people, they only do this for a living, they've been

01:05:56 ◼   ► around for a few years, and I mean, if they don't make the app, they basically don't eat,

01:06:02 ◼   ► which is, you know, very sad to think about, but it also makes me optimistic about the

01:06:05 ◼   ► future of the app. You know, as long as these people want to live, there's going to be this

01:06:10 ◼   ► app. So, you know, that's, I guess, a good point. We'll see, I don't know.

01:06:16 ◼   ► The thing that attracts me is it's very beautiful.

01:06:19 ◼   ► It is, it looks nice. You can make any kind of custom theme, you can switch to dark mode.

01:06:27 ◼   ► It looks very nice.

01:06:28 ◼   ► Are you going to make me spend money?

01:06:30 ◼   ► I don't know, just wait. Wait a couple more weeks, then we'll decide whether you have

01:06:37 ◼   ► to spend money.

01:06:38 ◼   ► Okay, I can live with that. That's good, because I need to buy it everywhere, which I'm happy

01:06:42 ◼   ► to do. Because it's priced well, but it's not throwaway money. For me it's £35 on the

01:06:49 ◼   ► Mac and £15 on iOS. So we'll see. Alright, great. So next week, next week's episode we'll

01:06:58 ◼   ► be obviously reflecting on the Apple event which is happening on the 21st so we will

01:07:04 ◼   ► be a day or so removed from that so we'll be able to talk a little bit in details to

01:07:08 ◼   ► what happened at the Apple event. Is everybody excited? I'm kind of excited. I feel like

01:07:13 ◼   ► I'll be more excited actually on Monday next week.

01:07:16 ◼   ► Yeah, I think I fall in the same boat. I mean, we'll be buying a phone for a family member

01:07:22 ◼   ► and that's probably about it.

01:07:25 ◼   ► Yeah, we're hoping for some Mac stuff, right? I'm interested to see what happens to the

01:07:29 ◼   ► laptops. I wouldn't mind replacing my MacBook Pro with something smaller and lighter for

01:07:35 ◼   ► when I do need it. I just want it to have the most minimum impact possible. So I'll

01:07:40 ◼   ► be excited to see if anything like that happens next week. I think it's going to be an event

01:07:44 ◼   ► of a lot of stuff but none of it kind of really astronomical but we'll be able to see what

01:07:50 ◼   ► that's like next week. So you want to tune in and make sure that you go check out our

01:07:53 ◼   ► show notes this week you can head to allthings.pizza/connected/82 it will take you there, I object it, it will

01:08:01 ◼   ► work. If you want to find us online head on over to fivetopixels.net for Stephen Hackett,

01:08:08 ◼   ► stories dot net Federico Vitici and we're all on Twitter Federico's at the

01:08:13 ◼   ► teachy vit I CCI Stephen is at is mhm I am at I Myke I am y ke and the show is

01:08:20 ◼   ► at underscore connected f and thank you so much to igloo for sponsoring this

01:08:25 ◼   ► episode thank you to all of you who helped support this show directly and

01:08:28 ◼   ► we'll be back next time until then say goodbye guys

01:08:32 ◼   ► he would hurt you adios