79: We Didn't Stream Live and There Was No Showbot


00:00:00   [music]

00:00:05   From Relay FM, this is Connected, episode number 79.

00:00:10   Today's show is brought to you by our friends over at PDF Pen 7 from Smile and Igloo.

00:00:16   My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Mr. Stephen Hackett.

00:00:19   Hello, Mr. Stephen Hackett.

00:00:20   Hello, Mr. Michael Hurley.

00:00:22   You forgot who I was. And Mr. Federica Petici.

00:00:26   Hey guys.

00:00:27   We're all back as a three again.

00:00:30   Which nearly didn't happen.

00:00:32   Well, there was an accident.

00:00:35   There was an accident.

00:00:36   Well actually, let's address this later on in the show as to why this episode nearly

00:00:40   didn't happen today.

00:00:42   But we have an action-packed show here right now.

00:00:45   We're not actually streaming live either for once, which is peculiar, it's just the three

00:00:49   of us.

00:00:50   Feels kind of lonely without the chat room.

00:00:53   It does, it does.

00:00:54   I could start sending you messages if you want.

00:00:56   Yes, please be the chat room or we could jump in the chat room once clockwise starts and be really confused

00:01:01   Yeah, we could just use the clockwise chat room

00:01:04   Which is starting shortly as our chat room and they can just you know, they can direct the show that way

00:01:09   That's a great idea. What could go wrong? What could go wrong?

00:01:12   Follow up time, please

00:01:15   Yes, I would love to hold your hands and walk through the field to follow up together

00:01:20   Okay, we've spoken about the Amazon echo a couple times Federico you

00:01:25   you bought one on some sort of grey market website. Myke, you have not bought one? Is

00:01:32   that correct? He's still holding out? That's correct. Jason just bought one though.

00:01:36   Yeah, so did I. It's like I feel like I'm being surrounded.

00:01:42   It's like some kind of pincer movement. Peer pressure, Myke.

00:01:46   It is. So, Dan Morin has been smug in our slack about the virtues of the Echo. He's

00:01:53   had one for a while and here's a I picked one up it's in my kitchen which

00:01:56   is like the natural place for it to be I had it on my desk and it seemed not as

00:02:01   useful and then the kitchen you know you're washing dishes and you can just

00:02:03   shout at it and ask questions and play music I'm trying Spotify with this I

00:02:09   paid for a month Spotify and it's really great on the echo it's it's a very

00:02:13   compelling little device and you know if you don't want to stream something it

00:02:17   works as a bluetooth speaker so you can just play music to it directly unlike

00:02:21   the Sonos which you have to jump through hoops as we've talked about.

00:02:25   So you can play Apple music on it then?

00:02:29   Yeah, I mean it can work just as a Bluetooth speaker so I have it set up just to play overcast

00:02:36   from my phone if I want to or if I want to you know say you know hey go play so-and-so

00:02:40   off of Spotify it'll just stream that from Spotify directly.

00:02:44   Yeah just I just did a last night you have to say Alexa pair and it starts the Bluetooth

00:02:50   pairing process. Nice. Yeah. Alright so Steven I'm gonna levy the same kind of

00:02:56   not accusation but thing that I did to Federico's, you just bought a Sonos

00:03:02   and now you're talking about the fact that you're playing music on your Echo

00:03:05   like what else are you using it for otherwise just to replace the Sonos that

00:03:10   you just bought. I want to point out right now that for the history of this

00:03:14   show I have been accused unfairly of having a shopping problem but you both

00:03:21   in the space of a month bought sunrises and echoes. Well see that's there's a

00:03:26   difference Myke between having a legitimate shopping problem like you

00:03:30   used to have and doing research. It'll be an article. Well I bought the

00:03:37   The LGG watch was inebriated.

00:03:41   Well, you answered already, Myke.

00:03:46   I spoke about it on the show.

00:03:48   Yeah, it almost counts, probably.

00:03:51   It works.

00:03:52   Just blog about it.

00:03:53   So I really like having the Echo in the kitchen because it's the whole hands-free experience.

00:04:00   And you know, Siri could do this to a degree if it's in your pocket or you have an ear

00:04:03   or something, but for instance, I always get like

00:04:07   "tablespoons" and "teaspoons" mixed up, like when I'm trying to make something, like

00:04:10   the relationship between the two is just...

00:04:12   Even when you try and say it, and you put in "tablespoons", which...

00:04:16   "Tablespoons"!

00:04:18   The word "tablespoon" is maybe one of the cutest words I've ever heard.

00:04:22   We should go into business!

00:04:23   The "t-ball", let's make a "t-ball", it's like a table just for tea.

00:04:28   Yeah.

00:04:28   "T-ballspoons"!

00:04:32   Sorry.

00:04:33   - And so it's nice just to be able to say,

00:04:36   "Hey, you know, Alexa, remind me of whatever."

00:04:39   And that sort of hands-free thing

00:04:41   is the big difference for me.

00:04:43   The Sonos definitely sounds better.

00:04:45   The Sonos will live on in our house.

00:04:47   I think I'm gonna put it up on a shelf

00:04:48   in our bathroom, actually, but--

00:04:50   - Oh my God, yes.

00:04:52   That's a great idea.

00:04:53   - I'm all about shower music.

00:04:55   And it'd be nice to have a good speaker in there.

00:04:57   So I think there's room for both in my household.

00:05:00   What about you, Federico?

00:05:01   Are you gonna hold on to both or do you know yet?

00:05:05   - Yeah, I'm gonna hold on to both

00:05:07   just because the Sonos sounds way better

00:05:09   when you actually wanna listen to music.

00:05:11   You know, the bass, it's warmer and louder.

00:05:13   It sounds great.

00:05:14   But I've been using the Echo,

00:05:16   so the experiment has been going very well.

00:05:18   I've been using it to turn on my coffee machine,

00:05:22   which I, you know, I'm using my old Belkin WeMo switch plug

00:05:27   kind of thing.

00:05:29   And it's nice because you can, the way that you can assign these devices to Alexa is you

00:05:36   create a group and you can give the group a name.

00:05:39   So instead of having to say turn on my balcony Wiimos which you know, you can just assign

00:05:44   a name like coffee maker or you know, coffee machine, whatever.

00:05:48   It's very nice.

00:05:49   So I've been using the, for that, for lights, unicom versions like I told Myke last week.

00:05:55   I've been using it a lot actually.

00:05:57   I hooked my camera to IFTTT, which works very nicely.

00:06:05   What I've been doing a lot is listening to Spotify music with the Echo, because as I shared

00:06:13   last week, I want to see if voice-powered playback makes me listen to music more, and

00:06:20   And so far the week-long test seems to suggest that I listen to music more if I don't have

00:06:27   to go look for music in an app.

00:06:32   And so I guess that also means that I'm using Spotify as a sort of trial again.

00:06:39   I've been streaming from Spotify and not from Apple Music for the past week, you know,

00:06:45   just because I wanted to see things with the echo and I want to see what's new with Spotify

00:06:51   in general. And so what I didn't tell you guys privately is that I wanted to create

00:06:58   a new US Spotify account, so I had to go through a whole process of faking an American IP address

00:07:06   and buying a Spotify gift card from a website online. It felt kinda shady.

00:07:13   Why didn't you just use the one you had before?

00:07:15   Well, it's because I wanted to start, one, with fresh data. Just because, you know, this

00:07:20   is experiments, I feel like it's best if I have a fresh account. And two, because I always

00:07:26   wanted to have a US Spotify account because you get the good stuff first. You know, so

00:07:32   I was able to... I'm also on the Spotify beta, so I can try the beta stuff and the American

00:07:39   stuff because it rolls out internationally. And in general, because... This is going to

00:07:44   sound bad. I don't want to see the Italian music recommendation and top charts, like

00:07:49   I just don't care. Don't listen to Italian music. There's no way if you have an Italian

00:07:54   Spotify account to say "Yes, I live in Italy, but please never show me Italian stuff".

00:07:58   It's like "I hate European music, please stop showing me European music".

00:08:02   Just go away, there should be a toggle, like "Remove European stuff". No, European,

00:08:07   no, because it's the UK European, I guess it is.

00:08:09   Yeah, we don't count it. Continental European music.

00:08:13   Yes. Anyway, a series of brief thoughts. I'm still waiting to see Discover Weekly, which is the

00:08:23   Spotify feature that everyone is in love with lately. It supposedly starts working after two

00:08:31   weeks of streaming. So in theory, next Monday, I should get my first Discover Weekly playlist.

00:08:38   So we'll see. Q management is just plain stupid compared to Apple Music.

00:08:43   So when you come back to Spotify from Apple Music, I seriously, I couldn't figure out how to add songs to my up next queue,

00:08:52   and I still can't figure it out. And I thought it was a beta bug, but I installed version 5 from the App Store yesterday,

00:08:59   and it's still the same. I just don't understand how you add a single song or an entire album

00:09:06   next to the song you're currently listening to. And also, please let me know either on

00:09:11   Twitter or email, I just don't care, I want a solution. How can you start listening to

00:09:17   an album right now without shuffling? Seriously, there's no play icon for albums on Spotify,

00:09:27   I just don't understand. What's nice, so of course the Echo integration is very, very

00:09:35   cool and I can also search for playlists from other users which is nice because I

00:09:41   can start listening with the echo to playlists by the Spotify team so that's

00:09:47   nice. I like that I don't have to like or you know love songs all the time which I

00:09:53   you know I guess when you start using Apple Music you get used to the idea

00:09:59   that you're supposed to train the service with the love icon but it's just

00:10:04   nice and convenient not to have to tap the little icon all the time because you know

00:10:09   Spotify just learns on its own based on what you listen, what you skip. I don't know how

00:10:15   Apple's algorithm works, you know, if you actually don't need to press the love icon,

00:10:21   but it's there for a reason so I'm guessing that you're supposed to use it. And also,

00:10:26   the Spotify recommendations are not bad at all, you know, they go in a little deeper

00:10:32   than the "For You" section of Apple Music. For some reason, in the "For You" section

00:10:36   of Apple Music, I still see a lot of intro to kind of playlists. And I really don't

00:10:45   know if I need those, because usually those artists I'm very familiar with, but Apple

00:10:50   Music still gives me the, for example, intro to Ben Gibbard. Well, I mean, I listen to

00:10:56   the entire Death Cab for Cutie catalog, and I follow Ben Gibbard, and I listen to a lot

00:11:01   of his stuff, why are you showing me an intro? And I see a lot of those. Whereas in Spotify,

00:11:08   it's not as nice or as visual or as colorful as Apple Music, but it goes on a little deeper.

00:11:15   It shows you EPs, it shows you live versions, and it actually tells you, here's a recommendation

00:11:22   for you based on these artists that you listen to. So that's nice, it gives you an explanation.

00:11:30   I guess I'll be back on Apple Music or maybe I'll just use both, you know?

00:11:35   At some point I just gotta accept the fact that I like both.

00:11:38   Maybe. I don't know, we'll see.

00:11:39   Well, you're mainly using Spotify because you want the access on the Echo, though, right?

00:11:46   Yeah, exactly. And I mean, it's not happening anytime soon with Apple Music, you know?

00:11:51   They're not gonna do an Amazon Echo integration.

00:11:53   No.

00:11:54   Yeah.

00:11:54   Doesn't seem like they're gonna do a Siri speaker either,

00:11:58   So, you know, maybe I'll just use both.

00:12:00   Instead of having the day iPhone and day/night iPhone or dual iPad setup like Myke imagined,

00:12:09   I'm just gonna have the dual streaming setup.

00:12:12   I'm still waiting, and I think I'm gonna have to give it a little bit more time

00:12:18   to find out what you two are actually doing with this thing that makes it worthwhile as a product.

00:12:23   It just feels like currently you're just both playing music on it predominantly.

00:12:29   So I'm gonna wait to see how this unfolds.

00:12:32   I mean I'm interested but I'm not going to eBay yet.

00:12:36   You know what I also did a couple of days ago?

00:12:38   I asked Alexa to tell me, like, "Alexa, what's new?" and you can listen to snippets of news

00:12:45   from like NPR and other places, which was cool.

00:12:50   Yeah, I mean, I just don't see it yet.

00:12:56   I just don't see it.

00:12:57   I don't see any of that stuff from apps on my phone.

00:12:59   I feel like I need to understand a little bit more about what can be done with it.

00:13:04   But maybe it's one of those things that you've got to have it to really get it.

00:13:07   Maybe.

00:13:08   We'll see.

00:13:09   We'll keep you posted, Myke.

00:13:11   Now, Steven, I believe we are still deep within the follow-up segment.

00:13:16   We are.

00:13:17   We have not left the field of follow-up yet.

00:13:18   So we talked about the app store release note thing a couple weeks ago when Mykey when you

00:13:25   were out sick and last week you guys followed up on these this comment that developers may

00:13:34   be putting in update notes that are vague so Apple you know the update review team they

00:13:40   don't really know what to look for and so to kind of throw them off the scent and in

00:13:45   hopes that rejection rate would go down

00:13:48   potentially. And I knew this but I

00:13:53   didn't think to put in the document

00:13:54   before you guys recorded but the what is

00:13:58   in these release notes can be changed it

00:14:01   really at any time right so you can you

00:14:03   can have an update you can submit to the

00:14:05   store and you can change those notes

00:14:08   once it has been approved and clearly

00:14:11   you know Facebook and we'll keep picking

00:14:14   on them but I think they're the biggest them and Twitter are probably the two

00:14:18   biggest defenders of this where they just don't and and all you get in the

00:14:22   App Store is hey we update this every week for reasons and you should download

00:14:26   it and clearly that shows that while there may be some strategy there and to

00:14:32   keep Apple off the scent of what they're fixing in their apps I think that they

00:14:37   just do this not necessarily out of laziness but I think that they think

00:14:42   that people don't care about it and you know saying oh we fix these hundred bugs

00:14:46   then are you walking around thinking oh my gosh Facebook app must have hundreds

00:14:50   more bugs who knows what it's doing right and if you just say hey we're

00:14:53   improving it you know we're polishing it then you can avoid that whole negativity

00:14:57   around bug fixes so I don't know it's still complicated I still agree with you

00:15:02   guys that I wish companies would put more detail into there but clearly just

00:15:08   hiding it from Apple is not apparently not the only thing maybe in play here

00:15:12   They just have detail they don't want to share.

00:15:14   I also want to talk about you guys last week, of course a lot of people were talking about

00:15:19   this, the software quality discussion.

00:15:22   And Myke, you mentioned something that I really liked about this idea that maybe it is not

00:15:31   so much that bugs are getting through, but it's some sort of attention to detail issue

00:15:36   or some design issue that is leading to these frustrations on people's parts.

00:15:44   And that the lack of crashers and the perceived uptick in little fiddly bugs, you know, maybe

00:15:50   this is Apple just not paying attention at the edges.

00:15:52   And it reminded me of this quote that's out of the Walter Isaacson book.

00:15:57   And I'm just going to read it to you guys real quick.

00:16:00   So this is talking about Paul Jobs, Steve Jobs' father.

00:16:04   - Paul Jobs was a salt of the earth guy

00:16:06   who was a great mechanic,

00:16:07   and he taught his son Steve how to make great things.

00:16:09   And once they were building a fence,

00:16:11   and he said, "You've got to make sure

00:16:12   "the back of the fence that nobody will see

00:16:14   "is just as good looking as the front of the fence.

00:16:16   "Even though nobody will see it,"

00:16:18   this is the important part,

00:16:19   "you will know, and that will show that you are dedicated

00:16:21   "to making something perfect."

00:16:24   So this idea that the details matter

00:16:26   even if no one else will ever see them,

00:16:29   like that resonates with me

00:16:30   in this conversation of software quality,

00:16:33   that the three of us, we live at the edge cases, right?

00:16:36   We're not typical users and people who listen to this show

00:16:41   and who read Daring Fireball, this community we're in,

00:16:44   we're not the typical user.

00:16:46   We live sort of at the edges of what these systems

00:16:50   and software and everything are designed to do.

00:16:51   And I think that as Apple has grown,

00:16:56   their attention has shifted

00:16:57   to something a little more mainstream and that's fine.

00:17:00   I'm not saying they shouldn't,

00:17:02   But I think that what we're seeing is that the edges,

00:17:04   like the back of the fence, if you will,

00:17:07   in this Isaacson quote,

00:17:09   like that's kind of where we are,

00:17:10   and clearly that stuff is not getting the attention

00:17:13   it once did.

00:17:14   And so we see these rough edges

00:17:17   and these unfinished corners,

00:17:18   and I wish Apple would finish them

00:17:21   and put some paint on them and make them bright,

00:17:23   but I do think, Michael,

00:17:26   you were really onto something

00:17:27   in that line of conversation.

00:17:29   - Yeah, I've been thinking about it a little bit more.

00:17:31   I just think it's not that things are buggy,

00:17:36   and it's not necessarily that,

00:17:38   it's not things are crashing,

00:17:40   so it's stuff you can't really measure.

00:17:42   It's just that maybe things aren't spending

00:17:44   as much time in the oven as they used to.

00:17:46   And then because of that, there is less of an ability,

00:17:49   or that's what I think, it's more of a less of an ability

00:17:53   than a lesser care, that things just don't have

00:17:56   the same attention to detail that they once did.

00:17:59   - Right, and I agree with you,

00:18:00   hopefully I didn't portray otherwise.

00:18:02   I don't think this is a lack of care.

00:18:04   I think that you were absolutely right that they,

00:18:07   as Apple has grown their range of products

00:18:10   and as they speed up their deadlines,

00:18:12   that stuff just gets out the door.

00:18:13   And I've never talked to anyone from Apple,

00:18:16   I've never heard anyone from Apple speak

00:18:17   and not show great care over these sort of complaints.

00:18:22   And even though I don't love everything that was said

00:18:26   in that episode of the talk show,

00:18:28   and the oh at least it in a crash

00:18:29   has become a meme a little bit already,

00:18:31   that I think they do care and I think that you're right

00:18:35   that this stuff is like they're sort of hanging on

00:18:38   by their fingertips in some areas

00:18:40   and you know they've staffed up a lot

00:18:43   but that's not an immediate fix.

00:18:45   In some ways that can be the opposite of an immediate fix.

00:18:48   But it is something to consider that as Apple grows

00:18:53   and does more that the quality,

00:18:55   especially in these details, right,

00:18:57   Like yes, Apple Music works, but then it gets weird

00:19:00   if you have a bunch of custom stuff,

00:19:02   or Photos works unless you turn it off

00:19:04   and then turn it back on, in which case

00:19:05   it overrides your library and you're sad

00:19:07   and you write a blog post.

00:19:08   These things are solvable, and I think that the time

00:19:15   is definitely something to consider.

00:19:18   I mean, thinking back over the history of OS X,

00:19:21   you know, releases like Tiger and Leopard were,

00:19:24   you know, Tiger was out a long time,

00:19:27   And it, you know, Leopard had its issues when it came out,

00:19:31   but you know, those OSs, the dot zeros of those OSs

00:19:35   were not perfect.

00:19:36   Like, I'm not wearing rose-colored glasses here.

00:19:40   In fact, I had big issues with 10.4.0 on my PowerBook, but--

00:19:44   - Who didn't?

00:19:45   - Yeah.

00:19:46   But overall, I do feel like there was a level of polish

00:19:51   and concern that we don't see now,

00:19:54   and that is something definitely to talk about and definitely to worry about.

00:19:59   I would like to mention a moment of great personal success.

00:20:03   Yes.

00:20:04   Please do.

00:20:05   As we record, on the 24th February 2016, yesterday, Apple announced that Pencil support for scrolling

00:20:15   and interacting with the interface on the iPad Pro, which was missing in the 9.3 beta,

00:20:22   is going to return during the beta cycle and will remain in 9.3 which is fantastic. It

00:20:30   makes me very happy. I hope and like to think that my complaining along with grey on cortex

00:20:37   and other places and other people writing grey articles has helped Apple see the light

00:20:42   in this. I think that contrary to the statement that was given from Apple, depending on how

00:20:50   you read it I think it can play slightly differently. My belief and understanding is that this is

00:20:56   a reverse decision, not a "oh we were always planning to have it in there". And I think

00:21:01   the way you can read that statement even says that if you read it in full I think when they

00:21:06   say that they understand some customers like to use the pencil for this and we've been

00:21:10   working on ways to better implement this while maintaining compatibility during the latest

00:21:14   beta cycle. So they're gonna be putting it back in having taken it out because

00:21:19   they probably wanted to kill it and I just wanted to mention both of your

00:21:24   link posts to this because I thought it was really funny both of them and

00:21:28   they'll be in the show notes as Federica says this has to be my favorite Myke was

00:21:32   right so far and I agree I actually can't read Steven's link post because I

00:21:38   would have to be put on air so you can go and check it out for yourself it'd be

00:21:41   and me and Gray are recording next week and I'm very excited. I'm really pleased they

00:21:49   decided to do this. I think it was a decision that they made because they didn't like the

00:21:56   fact that people were using the devices that way, not fully understanding how important

00:22:00   it was to the current user base.

00:22:03   So what I heard from the beginning was that it was a decision for the iOS 9.3 beta 1,

00:22:13   but they were open to change.

00:22:16   And of course change didn't happen for betas and eventually people were giving Apple the

00:22:23   benefit of the doubt and just a few days ago it all exploded.

00:22:28   Yeah, basically over Monday and Tuesday things got really hot on this issue.

00:22:33   And you can see clearly Apple reacting to the news cycle and giving a statement,

00:22:39   not to a Mac or Apple-focused publication, but to The Verge, which is a general tech website.

00:22:45   Yeah, other places. iMore did get the statement, but The Verge got it first, I think.

00:22:49   The Verge got it first. And I mean, it's obviously, you know,

00:22:57   they made a decision in the first beta, you know, let's just try and we don't like it that people are using the pencil

00:23:03   but you know, maybe we'll see. It doesn't change for four betas, people are telling Apple

00:23:07   "Well, you know, actually the pencil support for navigation was, you know, was helping people

00:23:11   with, you know, RSI problems." I got a tweet from a reader

00:23:16   he says "I'm doing chemo and my hands are swelling" and you know, it's just more comfortable to use the

00:23:23   the pencil for navigation instead of my fingers.

00:23:26   And I totally understand because I can relate to that.

00:23:30   So Apple saw the people having a bunch

00:23:33   of different and valid reasons, and they decided

00:23:36   to change it for the next beta.

00:23:38   Now, what I want to know is, is this going to be a setting?

00:23:41   Is this going to be an accessibility, as a few people,

00:23:44   including you and CGP, suggested?

00:23:47   Or is it just going to be like it used to be?

00:23:49   You connect the pencil and you can do everything.

00:23:52   Again, who knows if this stuff is real, but I've heard no second.

00:23:55   All right.

00:23:58   Yeah, we'll see what actually happens, but I think at least in nine three, it won't be a

00:24:03   setting maybe later, maybe when they actually add more functionality, which I think is the

00:24:07   reason they were doing this in the first place.

00:24:09   Um, but we'll have to wait and see.

00:24:11   I'm just pleased because I've missed using my pencil, uh, as much and I'm happy that it's

00:24:17   going to be coming back.

00:24:18   This was, you know, I think for a lot of people that were involved in trying to get this decision changed,

00:24:25   like Gray and Ran and myself, because Serenity wrote a great piece on iMore,

00:24:30   which also helped highlight some of these issues.

00:24:33   The reason that we were upset about this and trying to get it to change is because we really, really care

00:24:40   about using our devices in this way.

00:24:42   So I'm very, very pleased that Apple decided to reverse the decision.

00:24:47   I think it was the right thing to do.

00:24:49   Yeah, yeah. I agree.

00:24:53   Alright, should we take a break? Let's do it.

00:24:56   This week's episode is brought to you by Smile and PDFPan, your Swiss army knife for working with PDFs.

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00:25:27   for a sponsorship, but they sent me a PDF. Now I need to take that copy and turn it into

00:25:32   markdown and I was struggling to get it, I was trying to highlight it in outlook and

00:25:37   it wasn't working, like it would only highlight a word, not the entire text that I needed.

00:25:42   So I opened it in PDF pen and I was able to use its OCR character recognition to copy

00:25:47   all of the text and put it into one writer so I could manipulate it into markdown.

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00:26:08   export which is so useful to me, page numbering and even Bates numbering which I don't even

00:26:13   understand but my understanding is this is a good thing. Does anybody here know what

00:26:18   Bates numbering is?

00:26:20   It's no.

00:26:21   Oh no?

00:26:22   No. I assume it's something really important though but you know if you need it.

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00:26:59   connected. PDF Pen 7 and PDF Pen Pro 7 require OS X Yosemite and work

00:27:05   beautifully on El Capitan and PDF Pen for iOS is available from the App Store.

00:27:10   Thank you so much to Smile for their support of this show. Bates numbering huh?

00:27:16   Yeah. What does it mean? Nobody knows. Alright so the FBI. Yes they're

00:27:25   listening right now. Probably. What do you want to say about this? I mean this is an

00:27:32   ongoing thing and you guys even spoke on upgrade this week that it's obviously complicated.

00:27:39   I really just wanted to point listeners to three links if they hadn't seen them yet.

00:27:47   The first is a blog post by the FBI director that came out over the weekend that basically

00:27:52   says hey look we're not looking for a precedent this is about one phone I

00:27:55   don't really believe him when he says that. I wanted to point people to Apple's

00:28:00   FAQ which I think if you have anyone in your life like I do who is confused

00:28:06   about this or doesn't know what's going on it's like the place to go to kind of

00:28:10   understand it from Apple's perspective. The last one is an article written by

00:28:15   Ben Thompson that I think is probably the most definitive piece I've read on

00:28:21   this in the sense of not necessarily the technical details, I think there's room

00:28:25   for that, but just kind of where this case fits into the overall like world of

00:28:32   both technology and politics. And Ben's article is really good and it's a

00:28:37   public over on his site and so we'll have a link to that in the show notes as

00:28:40   well. You know I think that it's probably pretty clear with the three of us

00:28:45   stand on this. We all support the FBI right? No, not at all. Oh no, I got it so wrong.

00:28:55   No it's not. I mean I'm not picketing in front of an Apple store but I think that Apple is

00:29:02   in the right here. Something that I have, it's been rattling around in my brain a little

00:29:06   bit is like I support the idea of trying to keep people safe. Fundamentally I respect

00:29:14   that and law enforcement. There are people in this whole thing that are trying to do

00:29:20   what they think is the right thing. My assumption would be that I believe that there are people

00:29:26   in this scenario that are trying to do bad things, but I believe that there are also

00:29:30   people that are trying to do the right thing. And I appreciate that and I can tell, and

00:29:36   I think we can all tell that Apple does too, in so much as they have tried to provide them

00:29:41   with the tools necessary to do this without breaking the passcode. They tried to do it

00:29:47   with the iCloud backups and all that sort of stuff. Because I think there's something

00:29:50   to be said for getting this kind of information. This was a terrible thing that happened and

00:29:57   to help gather intelligence about these types of things to try and prevent stuff in the

00:30:01   future, that's why this happens. That's why this is important. But what is happening in

00:30:08   this specific case everything seems to have all got twisted up and it's become

00:30:12   this like horrible thing that is happening that we would all prefer

00:30:17   doesn't happen and you know without getting too like enthusiastic Apple is

00:30:26   taking a real bullet on this one because this is not gonna be popular with the

00:30:33   general public like it's just not I was having some conversations with family

00:30:36   members a lot of them expect that Apple's up to no good like not that

00:30:41   they're doing something bad but like all of this is some kind of marketing ploy

00:30:44   you know yeah and you can see you can really see why people would think that

00:30:52   but we're all of the opinion that that's not the case but this is a real this is

00:30:59   is a absolute PR nightmare right? Yes I don't I agree with you that I can see

00:31:10   why people sort of view the marketing angle but um I think that that's a

00:31:17   pretty narrow view of it I think that it's a much more important topic a much

00:31:21   bigger topic than even Apple's own well-being like say Apple loses this and

00:31:25   it sets off some sort of chain reaction

00:31:28   that destroys the iPhone and whatever.

00:31:30   I mean, that's ridiculous, but you have to think

00:31:34   that's on their mind, right, that if they win or lose,

00:31:38   Apple loses here really, I think, either way

00:31:43   to large segments of the population.

00:31:46   That sort of letter that Tim Cook wrote

00:31:47   and even this FAQ, there's not much winning in that

00:31:50   from the broad public, but I think that Tim Cook,

00:31:55   I think that Apple, I think that those of us who agree with him, see it as more important

00:31:59   than that. And that's really why that particular line of thinking bugs me so much, because

00:32:03   that's such a narrow, such a small view of this.

00:32:05   But you know there are people in Apple's PR department that were like, "Can we not do

00:32:10   this? I would really like it if we didn't do this."

00:32:13   Yeah, I mean, maybe it's romanticizing things, but my thought is that people said that and

00:32:19   they were like, "But it's worth it." And we haven't heard of anything like resignations

00:32:24   over it or anything like that. So from everything I've seen from Apple

00:32:27   employees who I know it's a solid line. They're all

00:32:32   behind it. And you know it's really interesting because at the key at the

00:32:36   heart of this is there's a lot of misunderstanding on people's parts of

00:32:41   what it actually is and what they're actually asking for. And I think the FAQ

00:32:46   that Apple written, yes it's on Apple's website so some people might take fault

00:32:50   with that, but I think even Ben's article goes into like what the FBI

00:32:53   actually wants from Apple and and what it means today but more importantly what

00:32:59   it means for tomorrow and it's come out that you know there's a whole bunch of

00:33:02   other phones that the government may want access to through this this new

00:33:08   version of iOS that they've requested Apple build but it's all very messy and

00:33:13   I think that the best thing anyone can do like regardless of what you think is

00:33:18   just to to be informed on it and not to just take you know that sort of

00:33:25   conversation you had with you know like your family member but like go educate

00:33:30   yourself on it because it is massively important and while it is yes it is just

00:33:36   one iPhone and and yes what happened in this case is is horribly heartbreaking

00:33:43   the ramifications of it are huge and not just limited to your iPhone right that

00:33:48   that if this is allowed to happen, then it does sort of put us into a new world when

00:34:01   it comes to encryption and how the government treats it.

00:34:04   That's all super important.

00:34:06   So we'll leave those links in the show notes.

00:34:08   Can I just make a statement before we move on?

00:34:11   Please.

00:34:12   I want to just share my position as a...

00:34:13   Federico is going to step up to the mic.

00:34:15   As a European, I'm a strong believer that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of

00:34:22   the few.

00:34:23   I think Spock said that on Star Trek.

00:34:26   And I believe that and I find it, it's a terrible tragedy, right?

00:34:31   But I find it very sad that there's a good chance that in the future in America, it's

00:34:40   gonna be easier to buy guns than to buy a fully encrypted phone, you know? And I'm

00:34:46   a strong believer that, you know, encryption is better for everyone. And sure, it also

00:34:56   enables, you know, criminals to hide their conversations. But it's, you know, there's

00:35:01   an excellent article on Medium from James, you know, the, I can't remember the last

00:35:09   name. He co-hosts the Exponent podcast with Ben Thompson. I just, it's just mind-boggling

00:35:17   to me what's going on with the US government. So, you know, I don't want to talk about

00:35:23   politics usually on the podcast, but it's just, you know, I feel like I wanted to share

00:35:27   my position. I know that I'm gonna upset some people and it's fine because, you know,

00:35:31   we are entitled to our own beliefs. So yeah, it's an ugly story, a terrible tragedy, very

00:35:41   sad, and it's gonna get worse from a technological point of view also. We'll see what happens.

00:35:50   So let's move to something with less FBI overtones. So the FBI, you can hang up on the Skype call

00:35:55   now. We got it from here. I'm gonna talk to you guys a little bit about this watch that

00:36:00   I'm wearing if you guys would like to hear it.

00:36:02   Yeah, we saw the review, Steven, on the website.

00:36:06   Yes, I had a weird moment.

00:36:09   Maybe you guys have this, where you're doing something for your website or for a podcast

00:36:13   and you realize it looks completely insane from the outside.

00:36:16   So I'm just standing in my kitchen with an expensive camera.

00:36:21   I brought some lights in and I'm taking a picture of my wrist.

00:36:24   It's like, "What am I doing?

00:36:27   This makes no sense."

00:36:28   bringing the lights in that makes it extra weird? Yeah well, you've been in my

00:36:33   kitchen it's not very well lit. It's also very green which makes it for an

00:36:36   exciting photo background. So this is a little moment in my independent life

00:36:41   like what is what is happening. I actually had one yesterday, well we're on the topic,

00:36:46   I had one yesterday as well finishing up my quick take and eyesight video and I

00:36:50   was doing like some slider shots with a quick take camera like I'm actually in

00:36:55   the studio today and there's like you know this big white background we built

00:36:59   and lights and everything and someone like came in to like ask me something I

00:37:03   was like yeah this is my job I know it looks crazy it's like you've been caught

00:37:08   doing something yeah no it's exactly like it's exactly like someone's like

00:37:12   what you doing buddy like let me see your hands

00:37:17   Oh, anyways, so, uh, this watch, so sorry.

00:37:22   Okay. So the, uh, the company who we cannot agree on,

00:37:32   to how to pronounce their name, uh, why things, I'm going to go with why things.

00:37:36   Yeah. Hard to, yeah. My stance. Um, uh,

00:37:39   the activity pop is, uh, one, it's a,

00:37:42   they have a whole line of these watches. Um,

00:37:45   The pop is sort of like the the cheaper one, not as nice finishes as the more expensive

00:37:52   ones, but it's like 150 bucks on Amazon Prime and it is a watch that has a step counter

00:38:02   built in.

00:38:03   So it's interesting Fitbit has done this sort of from the other angle where they started

00:38:07   with like just a little puck that you clipped on your belt and then a wristband and they

00:38:13   They are now sort of adding more like watch like things to it.

00:38:17   So you don't have a weird picture of wearing a watch on one wrist and a Fitbit on the other.

00:38:21   But why things has really started in my approximation, my feeling about this is they have started

00:38:27   with the watch and then made the watch like also happened to have a step counter, not

00:38:32   the other way around.

00:38:33   Like looking at this thing, even in this picture, if I didn't explain what that sub dial, thank

00:38:38   you Marco Arman for helping me with my watch terminology.

00:38:41   I ran this by him, I was like, "What do you call all these things on a watch?"

00:38:45   You would never know the subdial was actually a step counter in just looking at it.

00:38:48   It just says, you know, 0 to 100, it has a little dial.

00:38:51   But this thing looks like a normal watch, you know, in a meeting or out coffee shop

00:38:55   or something, no one's going to look over and think that you have anything else besides

00:38:59   a regular watch.

00:39:00   And I like that.

00:39:01   I never got over the self-conscious factor of wearing the Apple Watch.

00:39:06   And that just doesn't exist with this product.

00:39:10   a pretty good little step counter. You know, my review, I walked through a couple

00:39:13   issues they have. I wish it was a little more flexible in some areas. I think you

00:39:18   could do a lot more with that than just count steps. Like, I would love to be able

00:39:21   to say, "Hey, I want to stay in 12 hours a day," and then account my progress

00:39:24   towards that. That's really what I would, that's what I'm more interested in the

00:39:28   step counting right now, just making sure I just get up and, as you guys work at

00:39:31   home, you know how this goes. Like, a whole day can go by and you haven't gone

00:39:34   anywhere but overall I think I think what I've come out of this with is that

00:39:40   a like what I have sort of like called in my head of like a cell like a semi

00:39:48   smartwatch where this thing can do step counting it you can set an alarm on it

00:39:53   it's obviously has bluetooth but it runs on a regular watch battery for like they

00:39:57   say like eight to ten months that is basically a watch is with a little bit

00:40:02   more like that is more compelling to me right now than a little computer on my

00:40:07   wrist for reasons we've talked about in the past but um I don't know I think it's

00:40:11   an interesting little product and I've enjoyed wearing it like the way it looks

00:40:13   I'm wearing it basically every day and yeah so it's there you go.

00:40:19   Alright I have many I have many thoughts. Okay. Okay so eight month battery life is

00:40:25   really good however eight months for a watch with a watch battery is kind of

00:40:29   frustrating as great as it sounds because you don't actually do that with

00:40:34   watches you don't change their batteries every eight months right and that's I

00:40:39   mean that the trade-off I guess is that because it does have a Bluetooth radio

00:40:42   and it's doing all this stuff that I agree with you that that's a weak point

00:40:46   I'd like to see it be a year or more but I think that it's better than every day

00:40:50   well yeah but see this gets into not the same territory but like I was explaining

00:40:54   this to somebody other day and they were like extolling the virtues that their

00:40:58   Pebble lasts seven days but that's that sort of battery life is a problem like

00:41:04   and the reason I think these young get into a routine my Apple watch goes down

00:41:07   on its charging cradle every night right right that's where it lives when I take

00:41:12   it off to Pebble I didn't bother with that because it lasted seven days but

00:41:16   that always meant that it died on me in the day because I'd never had a a

00:41:21   routine for charging it I agree with you and I think that's really a good

00:41:28   point now and I'm actually opening the app right now I'm not sure I believe I've

00:41:31   read on the support page but I don't take this as gospel but I believe that

00:41:36   it will send you a notification at a certain point saying hey you know you

00:41:40   need to you know drop in a jewelry store and get the watch replaced it even

00:41:44   actually comes with the tool to open the back it's got waterproofing in there so

00:41:48   I'm probably just gonna take it to like the jewelry store around the corner of my

00:41:51   house and have them put a watch in it or I put a battery in it so I do believe

00:41:56   that you I believe you do get a heads up but I agree with you that it does lack

00:42:00   that routine and that really is important I think that's why it's

00:42:05   important to watch the Apple watch last one day instead of like two or like 18

00:42:09   hour you know that it is it is a daily thing I think that is important so for

00:42:16   me just step counting and okay sleep tracking like that I it's not enough for

00:42:25   to wear a device like this. I would just get a nice watch. For me it's either something

00:42:32   like a computer on my wrist or a nice watch. I don't really feel like I would want an in-between

00:42:39   product like this. I feel like it's not doing enough to justify the fact that I would wear it.

00:42:43   Like just a step counter and it's a good looking watch or I can get an amazing looking watch,

00:42:49   right like a really nice watch like like the stuff that Marco Ammann is is getting now right like

00:42:55   I'll put a link in to his post uh in our show notes in case you haven't seen it the watches

00:43:00   that he's looking at are beautiful that's what I would want to go down that route rather than

00:43:06   something down the withings why things route if I wanted to just track my steps I would get a nice

00:43:13   watching a Fitbit. Yeah and I guess I think if all you care about is the

00:43:19   Fitbit like stuff there's something like this is nice because it is an all-in-one

00:43:22   but um yeah if you want the notifications or like if you want

00:43:28   complications for this like I would one of my complaints I write in the review

00:43:32   is that I wish this had a complication for the date I just all the time look

00:43:36   down when I'm signing something like I don't know what day it is and then end up

00:43:39   pulling out my phone. Yeah I see what you're saying and I think that if you do

00:43:44   want more like that's why smartwatches are a thing but I think there there is a

00:43:48   segment of the population and I'm maybe one of them that the step counting is

00:43:54   enough that that's you know I just want a little note on how I'm doing throughout

00:43:59   the day and I want a watch that doesn't look like a Fitbit and and I think the

00:44:05   market's big enough for all that stuff to exist but I definitely I understand

00:44:10   what you're saying completely. I wanted to draw a quote from your article you say

00:44:14   I think is the end the longer the Apple watch sits on my nightstand the more I

00:44:17   think that a regular watch with just a little bit of technology is a better

00:44:21   solution for me than a full-blown computer on my wrist which you basically

00:44:23   just said a moment ago but I think this is just interesting to me to watch

00:44:27   people sour on the watch you know we mentioned Marco yourself and as a few

00:44:34   other people that I know that maybe not wearing theirs as much anymore and mine

00:44:39   definitely frustrates me it's unresponsive it's slow at points but I've

00:44:45   actually come to really like it as a device like it gives me the information

00:44:49   I need and it allows me to perform quick tasks I am a big fan of the

00:44:54   complications like setting timers I do that every day when I'm cooking and I

00:44:59   like being able to do it directly on the watch it's very quick and easy to do

00:45:02   that. I like my weather complication with carrot weather and I like my calendar

00:45:07   stuff for fantastical. Like there is a long way to go in some places on the

00:45:12   Apple watch but overall I am a happy wearer and user of mine but I see why

00:45:18   people are moving away from it but for me personally like as I said I would

00:45:24   either go one way or the other like a device like this whilst I see why you

00:45:28   you like it, it's not enough for me. If I'm going to have something to track in my activity,

00:45:34   I also want something that's going to give me information.

00:45:36   Yeah, yeah, I agree with Myke. I don't love the Apple Watch as much as I was hoping I

00:45:43   would love the Apple Watch, but it also gives me the stuff that I want, which is timers,

00:45:51   notifications, you know, being able to glance at things like messages and emails.

00:45:56   It's... in many areas it's a flawed product, mainly because of the not capable hardware

00:46:04   and the software limitations.

00:46:07   But it's also, you know, I haven't worn a watch in decades, really, and I'm wearing

00:46:14   the Apple Watch because it's convenient.

00:46:16   But I'm intrigued by, you know, by Steven's approach, because he's not wearing a traditional

00:46:24   watch, which at this point I don't want to say that I don't understand.

00:46:29   I do understand, you know, they're nice to look at and they're made for nice accessories,

00:46:33   but if, you know, I'm putting something on my wrist, I want some functionality, you

00:46:37   know, that's in terms of software functionality.

00:46:41   Steven's approach is somewhere in the middle, and I'm intrigued, you know, because there's

00:46:45   I believe there's a lot of people who don't want to buy an Apple Watch just because it's

00:46:50   expensive or they don't have an iPhone. We recently bought as a present to a relative

00:47:01   of our family one of those fitness bands from I think it's called the VivoFit. It's a Garmin

00:47:11   product. And, you know, we thought about buying an Apple Watch, but of course that was out

00:47:18   of the question because it's just too expensive. We were like, you know, we were putting together

00:47:23   the money as five people and an Apple Watch was too expensive. But something like a Y-Thing's,

00:47:29   you know, this Activity Pop, it strikes a balance of, you know, it looks like a watch,

00:47:36   But it's also like it's got these features that work with the phone.

00:47:40   I think it makes more sense to me than a traditional watch.

00:47:45   You know?

00:47:46   I'm from that point of view, I'm the opposite of Myke.

00:47:49   So I want to see Steven if like a year from now you're still wearing this or like four

00:47:56   months from now.

00:47:57   It'll be interesting.

00:47:58   Yeah.

00:47:59   And there's there's a lot to the Apple Watch that is so attractive to me that the frustration,

00:48:05   that you spoke about and some of these little things that it just doesn't nail

00:48:10   those sort of like kept grating on me that this like a burring into my mind of

00:48:15   like I need it to wake up when I pick up my wrist or you know and that stuff is

00:48:20   getting better I think and but it was like it just was like death by a

00:48:25   thousand little cuts and I think that the I think while the software has

00:48:31   issues I think that the core issue for the watch for me is just that it's slow

00:48:34   and I can put up with you know not super fast and I can put up with to a degree

00:48:42   little bugs but like together it was just a one-two punch that was just too

00:48:45   much for me. So I'm gonna you know I'm not saying that I'm never going back to

00:48:50   the Apple Watch and I'm still wearing it some days that I'm busy it's still

00:48:54   really nice but like I've spoken about here a lot you know my life has changed

00:48:57   changed and it's not as useful to me as it once was.

00:49:01   And that's fine, you know, like I said,

00:49:03   there's lots of products for lots of different types

00:49:05   of people, but what I think is most interesting

00:49:07   out of all of this is that, like you said,

00:49:10   there is this sort of theme with some people we know

00:49:14   that, you know, hey, maybe this isn't, you know,

00:49:17   what we were hoping for out of this product

00:49:20   and like you, Federico, said, that you don't love it

00:49:23   the way that you hoped you would or that maybe you did

00:49:25   the beginning and that is really

00:49:27   interesting and I don't I don't think

00:49:30   that the Apple watch is doomed by any

00:49:32   stretch of the imagination but I think

00:49:33   it shows that it is still very much a

00:49:34   satellite product and so very much

00:49:36   something that is optional.

00:49:38   None of us are saying that about our

00:49:40   iPhones and at least the three of us

00:49:42   and other saying about our iPads either

00:49:43   and maybe the watch just suffers for

00:49:48   from what the iPad suffers from for a

00:49:51   lot of other people that hey this is

00:49:53   great but I don't really see how it fits

00:49:55   in my life. I don't really have

00:49:58   room for a third product and maybe

00:50:00   there's some of us that don't have room

00:50:01   for a fourth and that's fine. Like it's

00:50:04   fine but it's something that I'm not

00:50:07   sure Apple, you know, Apple pitched this as like

00:50:10   this is gonna be great and it's just

00:50:11   it's not great for everyone and it'd be

00:50:15   interesting to see how Apple

00:50:17   responds to that with the next one or

00:50:19   with the next software update. Are they

00:50:21   going to like a lot of people have

00:50:24   suggested are they going to really focus

00:50:26   on one of these areas and say look you

00:50:29   know we're really going to focus on the

00:50:30   fitness this year and really going to

00:50:32   make that great because right now the

00:50:33   Apple watch does a lot of stuff and a

00:50:35   lot of stuff isn't doesn't knock it out

00:50:37   of the park and I think it'd be really

00:50:39   interesting to see them pick one thing

00:50:42   and really make it great and maybe

00:50:45   dial back the app thing a little bit and

00:50:48   I don't know it's gonna be interesting

00:50:49   see what they do and I think that I think I do something and I think that holding the

00:50:56   course is probably not for the best but I guess I guess we'll see you later this year.

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00:53:24   so much to Igloo for their continued support of this show and the glorious Real AFM.

00:53:29   Glorious. I like that. Yeah, I thought I'd throw that in there. Why not? Alright, so

00:53:35   Federico Vittici wrote another little book this week. You have to put it on iBooks, man,

00:53:43   it makes it a book. What was the word count? 10,000. 10,000. That's a book. Yeah, not the

00:53:49   worst. It didn't crash Chrome, so we're doing okay. You wrote what I consider to be a fantastic

00:53:56   article about using the iPad for work and how that has continued to evolve and become

00:54:03   more central in your life and how we're basically down to just this as the only thing that you

00:54:11   need to use a Mac for.

00:54:12   And we'll come to that shortly.

00:54:15   But why did you want to write this article Federico?

00:54:17   I mean, you speak about the iPad all the time.

00:54:19   You're always writing stuff about the iPad.

00:54:22   What compelled you to write this specific article?

00:54:24   Well, I like anniversaries.

00:54:26   I like birthdays in general and I thought at the end of maybe the last week of January

00:54:33   I thought well you know the anniversary of the iPad article from last year is coming

00:54:38   up I should probably you know do some follow up and it all started as a quick follow up

00:54:43   you know I just wanted to update people primarily on two things the iPad Pro which I reviewed

00:54:50   in November I wanted to share with people you know this is what I've been doing and

00:54:55   And also the impact of iOS 9 so far, because it's easy to judge a new OS when it comes

00:55:03   out.

00:55:04   You know, you take a look at the new features, you describe what they do, and you try to

00:55:06   assess some of the utility of those features.

00:55:09   And you imagine how you might want to use them, right?

00:55:12   Yeah, and you try to guess what's going to happen.

00:55:17   But it's another thing to kind of let a few months pass and look back and write about

00:55:23   the experience.

00:55:24   And that's what I wanted to do.

00:55:26   And so I started to write and plan that article as a quick follow-up.

00:55:32   And it was in a very different form initially.

00:55:35   It was this quick follow-up from a technical perspective.

00:55:39   And it got that, and there was that introduction about, you know, sort of looking back at six

00:55:45   years of iPad and some of the problems, some of the struggles that Apple faced in terms

00:55:51   of marketing and sales and iOS and the Apple community itself. But then I got stuck when

00:56:01   I was writing the article because the follow-up section just didn't seem exciting to me,

00:56:09   it was boring. So I was texting Myke because I was stuck, I didn't know what to do. And

00:56:17   I let a few days pass, so I took a break from the article, like three or four days.

00:56:24   And then one evening I was washing my dishes and I was just thinking about, you know, other

00:56:30   stuff.

00:56:31   And then it just came to me.

00:56:32   It was like, you know, the metaphorical light bulb turned it on in my brain.

00:56:38   It was like, yes, I got to write about what I do with Club Max stories.

00:56:45   I've been working on my iPad, managing the newsletters, managing the club members, creating

00:56:54   the content for the newsletters, and this is a new topic that I've never talked about.

00:57:00   So last year I wrote about the iPad for Mac stories, this year I'm gonna write about putting

00:57:05   together the newsletters.

00:57:07   So it came to me and here we are, guys.

00:57:12   So we mentioned at the top of the show a reason why we're late and why we're not streaming

00:57:20   live this week and it's because most likely your Mac was upset about the way that you

00:57:26   spoke about it in the article and it struck back at you and what happened to you on Monday?

00:57:32   Well I just went in to plug in my MagSafe connector and it wasn't working anymore.

00:57:37   So I left it the last time that I opened my Macbook which was the last time I recorded

00:57:42   show, it was okay, I plug in my MagSafe on Monday and it doesn't work anymore, it doesn't

00:57:49   turn on. So I bought a new MagSafe from Amazon and it showed up today, which is the reason

00:57:55   why we're recording today. And I thought the timing was amusing, you know. I talk about

00:58:01   my MacBook and the single reason why I'm still using OS X, and sure enough, it doesn't turn

00:58:07   on anymore. Thank you Macbook. Screw you buddy. Yes basically. I liked what you said in the

00:58:16   article about OS X though that you know your move away from it really doesn't have much

00:58:22   to do with the Mac itself right? I mean it's about what the iPad offers instead and as

00:58:30   the Mac user of the group I appreciated that. That you know so many people in this conversation

00:58:36   and I think we're going to get to some of that. Make it about one versus the other,

00:58:40   sort of in a negative way, but in reality it's that the iPad works better for the

00:58:44   way that you want to work and it's not that, you know, the Mac is a garbage heap. So thank

00:58:51   you. Appreciate that. Yeah, I mean, I generally believe that OS X is a, I mean, it's fantastic

00:59:00   and you know, Macbooks are, especially the latest ones, I'm a big fan of the design

00:59:05   and you know, they're great machines, right? And it's just, I don't need them anymore

00:59:14   and I don't want them because I want my computer to be different and to be, you know,

00:59:20   apps that I can touch, 4G internet built in, I want a screen that I can hold and rotate.

00:59:28   And I think both iOS and OS X are mature enough to help people make this choice.

00:59:37   Do I want to use an iPad?

00:59:38   Do I want to use a Mac?

00:59:39   Do I want to use both?

00:59:41   And having choice is great, you know, because you can use whatever works best for you.

00:59:49   And it sounds so obvious that, you know, you shouldn't even be supposed to make that kind

00:59:55   of statement, but there are still people who take sides in a very bitter fashion. So, you

01:00:04   know, I feel like you want to use an iPad, you want to use a Mac, everyone's fine. It's

01:00:09   much better to talk about what could be better, what could be improved, and how you can take

01:00:14   advantage of an iPad or a MacBook instead of arguing, you know, my decision is better

01:00:20   than yours, which is silly.

01:00:22   So what could be better and what could be improved about the iPad?

01:00:27   So many things.

01:00:29   Of course, but I want to get some ideas from you.

01:00:32   What do you think now could make it a better device for you outside of replacing podcasting?

01:00:38   You go into that in your article, but I'm wondering are there any iOS changes or any hardware changes that you would like to see

01:00:45   that could improve the iPad to make it more capable for you, realistically?

01:00:50   Yeah, I mean, realistically there's still so many things that iOS gets wrong or only partially right.

01:00:57   For example, and this is part of my annual iOS wishlist that I'm working on,

01:01:05   doing bulk file operations on iOS, so you want to select multiple files and you want to open them,

01:01:13   or you want to send two or three files to another app, still impossible.

01:01:17   impossible, because the copy to what used to be called opening menu of iOS is still

01:01:23   based on a one-at-a-time system, so you can only send one document at a time from App

01:01:29   A to App B, which is very much a slow and cumbersome process. So those need to be improved.

01:01:39   iCloud Drive, while it does get some things right, the approach of a simple system which

01:01:45   looks like a file system like on a Mac, but it's actually based on apps, and those apps

01:01:51   have folders with icons that represent the apps where the documents come from. That's

01:01:56   nice, but it needs to be improved in many, many ways, two of which are the ability to

01:02:03   restore deleted files, which you can do on iCalc.com on a desktop, but you cannot do

01:02:10   on an iPad or on an iPhone, and the ability to view versions of a file.

01:02:15   You know, everyone gets this feature almost right, and I want to mention Dropbox as a

01:02:21   service that gets it right.

01:02:23   You can revert to any previous version of a file, and you can do the same with Box.com.

01:02:28   You cannot do the same with iCloud Drive.

01:02:30   There's an API for versions which very few apps implement.

01:02:34   I believe my node is one of the few that I can remember that implements iCloud versions.

01:02:40   Apple apps don't have iCloud versions that I know of and there's certainly not a versioning

01:02:46   feature in the iCloud Drive system.

01:02:50   I can mention multitasking improvements.

01:02:53   If you have used SplitView or SlideOver to any extent in the past few months and if you

01:02:59   don't hate the app picker, you need to reconsider your beliefs because it's really a bad app

01:03:07   switching UI. It's slow and it takes ages to find an app that you've not used recently.

01:03:14   There's no search bar and the entire interface, it's just slow to scroll and to pick another

01:03:20   app and to switch between apps. There's no drag and drop. If you're using two apps at

01:03:25   the same time and you want to move an image or a bit of text from one app to the other,

01:03:33   you still have to use the clipboard as a sort of work around, because there's no direct

01:03:38   touch-based communication between apps. Even Macbooks, which don't have touch screens,

01:03:44   have gotten this right for decades with drag and drop on the desktop. And of course, I

01:03:49   audio issues on iOS. This is not just about podcasting, by the way. You still

01:03:56   cannot do multiple tasks that involve audio. For example, one of the things that

01:04:04   I believe, you know, teenagers do a lot, but you know, people of all ages do a lot,

01:04:09   is you're listening to music and you want to watch a muted video in the

01:04:13   background. It could be a tutorial, could be a live stream of, you know, games or

01:04:19   sports, you know, or politics, maybe you want to just turn on the audio when, you know,

01:04:23   an interesting person comes up. You cannot do that on iOS because every time you start

01:04:29   a new audio process, it mutes, so it stops the other one. So you cannot do simultaneous,

01:04:35   you know, song listening and, you know, watching a video. You gotta choose. There's many of

01:04:41   these limitations still on iOS, and some of them have been around for a long time, so,

01:04:47   know like the audio problems or the file operation stuff. Some of them are new after iOS 9, so

01:04:55   you know split view improvements, the app switching UI improvements. It's a combination

01:05:01   of new problems and I believe what the kids call low hanging fruit in a way, which has

01:05:08   been around problems that have been around for a long time.

01:05:12   What do you think has kind of changed in the last year that has made things easier for

01:05:17   you? Do you think it's the Pro that's had such a big impact? Did you expect it to?

01:05:23   No, I didn't expect it to. I was actually very concerned about…

01:05:27   You were a little skeptical about the Apple Pro.

01:05:30   Very much, very much. I was skeptical about the size, I was skeptical about split view,

01:05:34   I really didn't think that Apple would do split view. And I was happily proven wrong

01:05:39   and every occasion I try to admit my wrongness, my past wrongness about this.

01:05:48   I think the Pro makes iOS 9 better. That's what I would say.

01:05:57   I really liked iOS 9 on the iPad R2, which I used to write my iOS 9 review,

01:06:05   which was a very important effort on my part. I'm still happy about that.

01:06:13   But I feel like the iPad Pro, just because it's bigger, makes iOS 9 better for Split View

01:06:20   and doing any sort of creation. So you can see more paragraphs of text, you can see bigger images.

01:06:27   images. Videos are louder because of the speakers. So it's not necessarily the "just because

01:06:34   it's bigger". It's because it's bigger iOS 9 has been created for that kind of experience.

01:06:42   You can use iOS 9 on an iPad mini, you can use iOS 9 on Split View on an iPad R2, but

01:06:47   it's just better on the Pro. And this applies not just to Split View, which is the obvious

01:06:53   candidate for those improvements. But also things like the shortcut bar, for example,

01:06:58   which I talk about in the article, you can have all of these shortcuts right on top of

01:07:04   the keyboard. And if you use apps to write, for example, in my case it's one writer

01:07:11   or drafts, these shortcuts help in saving time when you're working with text and Safari,

01:07:18   that kind of stuff, I feel like it's better to look at notification center when it's more

01:07:25   spacious and it's better in apps like Workflow for example because you can view more actions

01:07:31   on screen at a time.

01:07:33   So it's bigger but if Apple didn't make iOS 9 the way that it is, I don't feel like I

01:07:40   would love the iPad Pro as much as I do.

01:07:44   Yeah I couldn't agree more.

01:07:46   The reason that I love mine so much is the pairing.

01:07:49   And they do pair so well together.

01:07:52   It really is a match kind of made perfectly.

01:07:56   Yeah, I didn't really expect the iPad Pro to jump into my life the way that it did.

01:08:04   And what you guys just talked about is really the reason that the iPad felt so much less

01:08:10   productive for me at least because I was locked into one thing at a time.

01:08:15   Split View like you said just really opens up the horizons as far as what you

01:08:20   can do and even you know the place where the iPad Pro is really taken over for me

01:08:25   is like in the evenings where you know if we're watching TV or just hanging

01:08:28   around the house where I'd have my phone in my pocket and now I just keep the

01:08:31   iPad Pro you know at the end of the couch and if I need to look at an email

01:08:35   or you know someone needs something on slack I can do that really easily or just

01:08:39   check Twitter like that sort of casual stuff is made much more productive

01:08:42   through iOS 9 and Split View in a way that I did not expect and even going

01:08:47   from the Air 2 to the iPad Pro it's so much better and if you haven't done it

01:08:52   it's really hard to explain but it it feels so much more easy to use and and

01:09:00   just so much more space where you really can do a couple things at once and not

01:09:05   feel cramped anymore that really has made just a huge difference for me.

01:09:11   Federico, I wanted to ask you, what do you think that developers should be

01:09:18   considering now when making iPad apps?

01:09:23   Charging for money, that comes to mind.

01:09:26   That's a really good point, yeah.

01:09:28   I feel like there's a comment from John Gruber on

01:09:32   during Fireball yesterday about the Apple reversing the pencil decision. He

01:09:37   said, and I'm paraphrasing here, but that the iPad Pro and Pencil users are really passionate

01:09:43   about the experience. And that could be more true to me. I feel like there's a lot of people

01:09:49   who are using an iPad Air or an iPad Pro, I think, as their main computers, and those people

01:09:56   are willing to spend good money on apps that help them work faster. We've talked about this at length

01:10:02   in previous episodes of Connected, I believe a lot of developers shouldn't be afraid of

01:10:07   asking for money. And by money I mean anything above five dollars for an app, you know? I

01:10:15   feel like it's sort of a meme to say that you cannot make money on the App Store. There

01:10:21   are legitimate problems, many, many problems on the App Store, but it's also, you know,

01:10:27   I believe should also try to at least do their part in reversing this trend.

01:10:34   I would also suggest making...

01:10:40   Something that I really don't like is when I see iPad apps six years into the iPad, there

01:10:45   are still companion apps to the full Mac experience.

01:10:49   I really don't understand the concept of a companion app anymore.

01:10:53   It made sense maybe six years ago when the iPad couldn't replace a laptop for a lot

01:10:58   of people.

01:10:59   And there are still people who don't believe you can use an iPad as a laptop, but you know,

01:11:04   whatever.

01:11:05   The concept of a companion app is very outdated and if you make a companion app for the iPad,

01:11:11   with some exceptions, so you know, remotes, stuff to launch, actions on a Mac, but anything

01:11:18   else, if you make a companion app for the iPad, you might as well not make an iPad app

01:11:23   at all. And I also urge developers to not blow up an iPhone interface and not think

01:11:34   about the experience at all. And I know that Apple, the APIs that they give developers

01:11:39   to, screen sizes, you have to do as little work as possible to make an iPhone app into

01:11:47   an iPad version. I'm not saying that developers shouldn't use those technologies, but it's

01:11:53   just put a little thought into how people are going to use your app on different screen

01:11:59   sizes on the iPad. An iPad mini is not an iPad Pro. Also, consider the fact that when

01:12:09   people use computers like Macbooks, and those people are power users, they use their computers

01:12:15   not just for Facebook and Spotify, they actually get work done, they tend to like the fact

01:12:23   that they can customize the experience. So they can play around with preferences, they

01:12:28   can adjust layouts, they can personalize the way that they use Mac apps. And I believe

01:12:34   the same should be true on iOS. On the iPhone, every time I talk to developers, I suggest

01:12:41   you should consider having a customizable 3D touch menu

01:12:45   to let people decide the way that they want to save time with shortcuts.

01:12:51   And on the iPad, I would say the same.

01:12:53   Consider letting the users choose how they can customize the interface

01:12:58   or how they can customize the shortcut bar with shortcuts that they find useful.

01:13:03   Or consider having options for widgets.

01:13:07   Let users configure a widget in a different way.

01:13:10   too many apps are still, you know, that kind of what they call opinionated experience.

01:13:18   And I believe there's a place for opinionated apps on the iPad. It's just the way there's

01:13:24   a threshold, you know, between using an iPad as a companion device and as a sort of, you

01:13:32   know, a tablet where you get little work done. But the moment that people go past that threshold

01:13:38   and they start using the iPad as a full-on computer, they tend to prefer an app that

01:13:45   is customizable, that is powerful, that they paid money for, because it creates a relationship

01:13:50   between the customer and the developer.

01:13:51   It's more like Mac development, man. This is what it's like.

01:13:57   Yeah. And if you look at the best apps for the iPad, if you look at the Omni group, if

01:14:01   you look at, you know, paper, if you look at... paper is free, but that's another issue.

01:14:07   you look at Todo, some fine examples of iPad software, they tend to ask for money, they

01:14:15   tend to be fully customizable, they tend to stay on top of new iOS technologies, and they

01:14:21   put some thought into their iPad interfaces. So these sound obvious, and they're not companion

01:14:27   apps of course. So, you know, this is what I would say.

01:14:31   Who do you think, is there anyone else you think is really getting it right?

01:14:34   Just let me take a look at my iPad on screen again.

01:14:38   Because I feel like there's some gems that I want to mention.

01:14:42   Fiery Feeds gets you right. It's an RSS reader

01:14:47   for iOS

01:14:50   and on the iPad they got this very peculiar interface.

01:14:53   It's got a sidebar with articles and it's got a

01:14:57   view on the right for, you know, reading the actual

01:15:01   content of an article, but they use Safari View Controller, which is a new feature in iOS 9, in a very nice way.

01:15:08   You can open Safari View Controller on the right, but on the left you can still scroll articles, which is nice,

01:15:15   because you can open with the usual Safari View, which gives you Safari Reader, content blockers, extensions,

01:15:22   but on the left you can still scroll and see what else is new.

01:15:27   I also think that Copied makes excellent use of the iPad.

01:15:34   There's a custom keyboard, Copied is Cripple manager, lets you copy stuff and save these

01:15:41   little clippings of text or images.

01:15:44   They have a custom keyboard, they support iS9 multitasking, the iPad interface actually

01:15:48   makes sense, they support Safari V-controller, it's a very nice app all around.

01:15:55   And I also want to mention ProTube. This is a very clever take on YouTube on the iPad.

01:16:02   So Google is just plain stupid when it comes to iOS apps lately. They're doing a terrible

01:16:09   terrible job with the Google Docs suite of apps. They're doing a sort of terrible job

01:16:15   with YouTube on the iPad. Just yesterday the iPad was updated with full resolution on the

01:16:21   iPad Pro but there's still no picture-in-picture, no split view, no slide over.

01:16:26   And ProTube is a power user YouTube client.

01:16:29   It supports multitasking, it supports picture-in-picture, it lets you watch any YouTube video, doesn't

01:16:36   matter if it's got ads or not.

01:16:39   And the developer is always active on Twitter.

01:16:42   It's the kind of niche kind of app that you pay for.

01:16:47   it's got new iOS features, looks great on the iPad, and I've been using it quite a bit.

01:16:51   I actually didn't think I would use a third-party YouTube client this much, so I was happily

01:16:57   surprised. And there's many developers who get the iPad as a platform, but those developers

01:17:04   usually come from a mindset of not shaming people who use tablets, you know? And there's

01:17:13   still too many Mac developers who, you know, when you bring up the iPad they'll go like,

01:17:18   you know, what, it's silly to use an iPad. And I believe those who will find success

01:17:24   are the ones who realize that while they may need, you know, an iPad, a Mac for Xcode and

01:17:30   programming, there's other kinds of people in the world who prefer smartphones or who

01:17:36   prefer tablets or you know who are not developers and I believe you know the iPad apps that

01:17:44   are successful come from developers who accept you know the diversity of use cases of you

01:17:50   know OS X and iOS.

01:17:53   That ProTube app, I have no idea how it exists.

01:17:58   Yeah me neither.

01:17:59   I don't know how Google hasn't made it disappear.

01:18:01   Yeah.

01:18:02   Yeah. I don't even know how they get access to the videos.

01:18:06   You just put the prompt curse on it, thanks. No, come on Myke.

01:18:10   There's a YouTube API. Don't jinx it, Michael.

01:18:14   I'm sorry. Now it's gonna go away, for sure.

01:18:18   Sfeder, you're talking about that

01:18:21   attitude that some developers, some users have

01:18:25   to the iPad. What do you think

01:18:28   Apple could do to change that?

01:18:31   Well... Besides, just maybe besides the LLL App Store problem, is it all the

01:18:39   App Store or is there something else holding people away you think?

01:18:42   Well I think Xcode on iOS would build a lot of goodwill on, you know, the

01:18:50   developer side and it would be a great, great way to showcase the iPad Pro. It would

01:18:56   be a great way to have new generations of developers and programmers approach Swift.

01:19:03   It's a thing that might make me sound dumb, but I'm going to say it anyway. Do you think

01:19:08   that when Xcode is rewritten in Swift that might make it easier to bring it to YOS?

01:19:15   I feel like the question about rewriting Xcode in Swift is really way over my head. I really

01:19:25   don't know what that's like internally at Apple. I know that the Xcode for iPad exists

01:19:37   in some form inside Apple. I don't know if it's just playgrounds or I don't know

01:19:42   if it's the actual Xcode that lets you write and compile apps. I do know that it exists

01:19:49   and I do know that it used to be at least demoed on the iPad Pro. I don't know what

01:19:58   it's like lately because it's something that I heard a few months ago, I put a post

01:20:03   on Mac stories, John Gruber linked to it, he said I also heard about Xcode on the iPad

01:20:09   Pro, I don't know if it's just playgrounds or if it's the actual Xcode. I know that

01:20:15   it exists. And I feel like maybe Apple is waiting for Xcode 8 or Xcode 10, maybe a couple

01:20:27   of years, to rewrite Xcode in Swift and bring it to iOS. But I feel like it should be done

01:20:33   sooner, it should be done this year. It would be the kind of, it would rekindle the iPad

01:20:41   passion for many Mac developers and I believe also for young kids who just want to start

01:20:49   programming, don't want to buy a full-on computer, just buy an iPad and you can start making

01:20:53   apps. That's a very powerful message. To bring your programming anywhere, to have a screen

01:21:00   that lets you write software, that would be incredible. And you can test the actual app,

01:21:07   in a simulator but on the actual device. I mean, that would be fantastic.

01:21:11   It would.

01:21:12   I don't know if you know Apple is ever going to make Xcode for iPhone. I mean, it sounds

01:21:18   stupid, right? But is it really stupid? When you think about it, developers making iPhone

01:21:25   apps, is it really stupid to imagine that you want to fix a bug on a phone? I don't

01:21:29   think it's stupid anymore, but I feel like the iPad Pro is the first obvious place where

01:21:36   I will look for Xcode for iOS. So that would generate a lot of passion and goodwill from

01:21:43   developers. The App Store improvements, those need to happen, and they need to happen fast

01:21:49   with the WWDC this year. Not just on the iOS side, but especially on the Mac side, because

01:21:57   Because I feel like Mac developers, they've been burned in a way with the Mac App Store.

01:22:07   A lot of that disappointment extends to Apple platforms in general.

01:22:12   So basically my theory is if you upset a Mac developer, that's also going to reflect on

01:22:17   the iOS App Store.

01:22:19   Because that Mac developer is losing goodwill with Apple in general, not just with the Mac

01:22:25   App Store.

01:22:26   And so Apple improving their developer tools on every platform with the focus on the Mac

01:22:32   and also new tools to help developers make iPad software, you know, that would go a long

01:22:39   way.

01:22:40   Yeah, most definitely.

01:22:44   Nice article Federico.

01:22:45   Thank you.

01:22:46   Where can people go, well they can go to Macstories.net, right, we'll have the link in the show notes.

01:22:50   Also if there are Club Macstories now you can get an ebook, right?

01:22:53   Yes, yes, there's an ebook version, yeah.

01:22:55   So people should check that out so they can read it on their iBooks devices and whatever

01:23:00   it is they want to read their books. You can find our show notes over at relay.fm/connected/79.

01:23:07   I want to thank again our sponsors this week, Smile with PDF Pen and igloo. If you'd like

01:23:12   to find us online there's a few places you can do that. You can go to maxstories.net

01:23:17   for Federico's work and you can go to 512pixels.net for Steven's and you can view their many projects.

01:23:24   Steven has YouTube videos now which you can find links on his website and Federico has

01:23:29   these mini podcasts like Canvas and Remaster which are on Relay FM.

01:23:33   Steven has Liftoff on Relay FM.

01:23:35   You guys are so busy.

01:23:36   It's crazy.

01:23:37   If you want to find them online Federico is @Vitici.

01:23:41   Steven is @ismh and I am @imike and we will be back next week.

01:23:49   Until then thank you so much for listening.

01:23:51   Say goodbye guys.

01:23:52   Arrivederci.

01:23:53   Adios.

01:23:53   Adios.