45: I'm Afraid of Snakes


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:07   From Relay FM, this is Connected episode number 45. Today's show is brought to you

00:00:12   by Igloo, an internet you'll actually like, Casper, because everyone deserves a great night's sleep,

00:00:18   and AppCamp for Girls. Support their crowdfunding campaign now. My name is Myke Hurley and I'm

00:00:24   joined, as always, by the wonderful Mr Federico Vittucci.

00:00:28   Why is your accent getting worse every time?

00:00:32   It's just I'm going for different types of Italian now, I figure I'm just gonna mix it

00:00:36   up.

00:00:37   I practice, I practice at home, you know.

00:00:39   So these are types of Italian that you made up on your own?

00:00:43   Yeah.

00:00:44   Okay.

00:00:45   Hi Myke, how are you?

00:00:46   I am very well, how are you?

00:00:48   I'm well, yeah, thank you.

00:00:51   So Steven is chasing a spaceship right now.

00:00:56   actually going to a shuttle launch. Yeah he's fed up with our discussions about

00:01:01   you know young stuff like music streaming photos you know. So he's going

00:01:06   to live on the moon. So yeah I decided to go to the moon and just you know I'm

00:01:10   done. Yeah. We support your decision Steven. So in protest of him missing this

00:01:18   week we had decided to replace him with the only man that could replace him

00:01:22   which is the wonderful Mr. Underscore David Smith.

00:01:25   Evening gentlemen, how are you?

00:01:27   Very well sir, how are you?

00:01:29   I'm good.

00:01:30   Thank you so much for being here today.

00:01:31   That's good though, I'm pretty sure Steven's not going to a shuttle launch

00:01:35   because I don't think we launch those anymore.

00:01:37   It's something, SpaceX maybe?

00:01:39   Something's going to space and that does sound exciting.

00:01:42   It's probably maybe more exciting than connected but I don't know, we'll see.

00:01:46   I doubt that, I really doubt that.

00:01:48   I don't know, we have a man who makes 2000 apps for the iPhone and the iPad here as a guest.

00:01:55   That's pretty exciting if you ask me.

00:01:58   Yeah.

00:01:59   The reason that we picked David is because if you lay all of his app icons down together,

00:02:05   they will reach the moon.

00:02:06   There you go.

00:02:07   Yeah.

00:02:08   I mean, how many apps, seriously?

00:02:12   Like 120?

00:02:13   50?

00:02:14   50?

00:02:15   It's a funny question because I've probably developed something in the realm of between

00:02:24   60 and 100 unique apps.

00:02:26   On the store, I have a few hundred though because some of those apps were things that

00:02:30   were content driven, so there's multiple instances of the same thing.

00:02:35   But yeah, there are a few hundred on the app store with my name on them.

00:02:39   Man, that's so crazy.

00:02:40   I've been doing it for seven years.

00:02:42   I mean it's not too crazy.

00:02:44   I mean, you know, it's like how many articles did you write on MacStories?

00:02:47   You've just been doing it for 10,000.

00:02:49   It's fine.

00:02:51   Yeah, it's crazy I know.

00:02:53   So we're gonna talk about WWDC but from the developer's perspective.

00:03:00   You see that? A little later on today in this show.

00:03:04   But before we do that we do have a couple of small topics.

00:03:07   Because Federico has been doing some interesting stuff.

00:03:10   we're not doing follow-up this week I've decided to take that hostage in protest

00:03:14   what will Steven need to do to to pay the ransom for the follow-up?

00:03:20   that's a really good answer, I had not thought about that we should come back to that

00:03:24   yeah that's a you know for next week let's make sure we we have an actual

00:03:32   plan to to bring back the follow-up. Myke I wanted to make another confession to

00:03:39   you today. You know I'm using iOS 9, I told you last week, and I updated to the beta to

00:03:46   today, both on my iPhone and my iPad. So last week we talked about my usage of the Notes

00:03:54   app on my phone and my iPad and even my Mac for those two times every week when I use

00:04:00   my Mac. And so alongside the Notes app, what I've also been using is reminders on iOS 9.

00:04:10   So listeners of Connected and readers of Mac Stories know that I've been going back and

00:04:16   forth for the past two years, reminders and to-do lists. And for over a year I used to

00:04:22   do it, but when iOS 9 came out two weeks ago, I was really curious to see the changes in

00:04:29   Reminders because I've also started working on my review of iOS 9 and I feel like I need

00:04:37   to know what's in the actual OS and that includes knowing Apple apps and the changes that they

00:04:44   have. So in Reminders, I said to myself, I want to use this app as my own app. I want

00:04:51   as my only to-do system for a couple of weeks and

00:04:55   right now that's easy for me because in Todoist

00:04:59   I don't have many projects anyway

00:05:02   you know my to-do situation kinda gets crazy

00:05:08   before September and before all the OS releases but right now it's kinda

00:05:13   calm and quiet so I can easily transfer even manually

00:05:16   from one app to another so

00:05:19   I thought, "Okay, I'm going to try reminders and see what's new."

00:05:25   Besides the fact that iCloud Sync is really fast for me, at least right now, and I already

00:05:32   spoke about notes, changes propagate in real time.

00:05:39   When I launched these apps, both notes and reminders, if changes are not already there,

00:05:45   I just need to wait like two seconds.

00:05:48   speed perspective, they're really really fast and I like that.

00:05:53   And of course I get all these integrations with Siri, I kind of miss the ability to say,

00:05:59   to just like bring up Siri, especially now that I have Siri on my watch, to just say

00:06:04   remind me to do this and it's just saved, I don't have to use an app or worse on the

00:06:10   Apple Watch to bring up a third party app which is slow.

00:06:14   Does Seduis not do that thing where you can set up a reminders list?

00:06:18   No.

00:06:19   It doesn't do that?

00:06:20   No.

00:06:21   Okay.

00:06:22   No.

00:06:23   Because OmniFocus does that.

00:06:24   I don't have that set up because it's not really the way that I work.

00:06:26   But yeah, that is something that you can do.

00:06:28   You can have it.

00:06:29   It does something weird with reminders that I don't fully understand, but you can do it

00:06:34   that way.

00:06:35   So besides these obvious kind of features that I maybe forgot about and now they're

00:06:41   nice to have again. What I really like in reminders in iOS 9 is the ability to say

00:06:49   remind me about this and depending on what you're looking at you will get like

00:06:55   a special reminder in the app and by special I mean you will have an icon

00:07:01   next to the reminder and you can tap the icon to go back to the like to the

00:07:06   source to where you said or maybe where you use the share sheet to say I want to make

00:07:13   these a reminder.

00:07:14   So these can be a web page in Safari or an email message, a message from you Myke on

00:07:21   the messages app.

00:07:22   It can be a calendar event.

00:07:24   You can say to Siri remind me about this and it will know what is this.

00:07:29   It will look at what's on the screen.

00:07:31   It will save a reminder for what you're looking at and you will get a deep link in the reminder

00:07:36   app. So when the item is due you can just tap the icon and you go back to the web page

00:07:43   or the message or whatever so you can complete your reminder. And what's also very nice,

00:07:49   this works from Siri, from the new reminders extension in the sharesheet, so I save a lot

00:07:57   of links every day, so when I'm in Safari I can just save a link with the sharesheet

00:08:01   and later I get this Safari icon in the reminder and I can tap it and I will go back to the

00:08:07   web page in Safari which is nice.

00:08:09   But what's also really nice right now is that even apps that, now I want to ask David about

00:08:16   this, even apps that haven't been updated for iOS 9, if you say "remind me about this"

00:08:24   And if that third party app already uses handoff, so the NSUserActivity API, it's already capable

00:08:32   of exposing this activity to reminders.

00:08:35   So if you go to Twitterrific right now in the iOS 9 beta, and even if you don't have

00:08:41   an iOS 9 build of the app, look at a profile screen in Twitterrific and say "remind me

00:08:47   about this and you will get a special like Twitterrific reminder and you will get the

00:08:55   app icon in the reminder, you tap the app icon and you will go back to that specific

00:08:59   screen in Twitterrific which is really really handy.

00:09:03   David, what's the deal with NSUserActivity if you know about this?

00:09:10   So the user activities are... the reason that works and the reason that I think Apple did

00:09:16   a very smart thing in the way they structured user activities, is that they are very generic.

00:09:23   That it's basically just a way for an app to say, "I'm in the middle of doing something."

00:09:29   If some other app would be interested in that thing, here's some information that will be

00:09:35   relevant to them if they wanted to recreate where I am.

00:09:38   And so that works for hand-off, that makes sense, where if you're on your phone and you're

00:09:42   looking at a particular page, your Mac can know about it, or your Mac or your watch can

00:09:46   know about it, or you can go all the way around because it's just saying, "Here's something

00:09:49   that the user is doing right now."

00:09:52   And so the reason it works even there if they haven't even supported iOS 9 yet is just any

00:09:57   app that exposes those types of hooks into their application that says, "Here's some

00:10:01   interesting things that the users do in my app," will be able to just very easily hook

00:10:06   into that and pull it up.

00:10:08   And so that's when they say, "I want to do this."

00:10:10   This becomes more specific than just open the app.

00:10:13   It's this thing that I'm doing.

00:10:15   And so that's why it works there.

00:10:17   But it's a pretty straightforward mechanism.

00:10:19   I think a lot of the stuff Apple's doing in iOS 9 and on the watch ties into that same

00:10:24   kind of user activity stuff.

00:10:27   And you can do a whole lot with it as a result.

00:10:30   Nice.

00:10:31   So, yeah, I've been doing this, capturing information from apps a lot with reminders.

00:10:37   and it's super handy because I'm looking at apps every day,

00:10:42   whether it's news that I need to cover

00:10:44   or messages that I need to remember.

00:10:47   So for instance, my girlfriend asks me

00:10:49   a lot of stuff every day,

00:10:51   and if I don't save this information, I forget.

00:10:53   So just being able to save a message

00:10:56   and you get the title of the last message

00:10:58   from a conversation into the reminder,

00:11:00   and then you can tap the messages icon in the reminder,

00:11:03   you go back to the conversation, that's awesome.

00:11:06   And so combining these, you know, I can bring up Siri and say, remind me about this.

00:11:12   And I can use the share sheet with the extension to maybe because I cannot, you know, talk to Siri in public.

00:11:20   It's been very useful to capturing like my state, what I'm doing and remembering later what I need to do.

00:11:29   I find this communication, you know, with reminders and apps and there's deep links.

00:11:35   you can tap, you go back straight into the app and into the relevant section.

00:11:38   That's awesome and it's

00:11:42   only been two weeks, I already see the utility for

00:11:46   the kind of stuff that I do. I'm not sure if...

00:11:50   I mean of course third party developers won't be able to

00:11:53   bring up their own apps with Siri. I don't know if they will be able to do

00:11:58   the same with the sharesheet alone

00:12:00   so if they can build an extension that looks at the activity

00:12:03   I'm not sure they can do that.

00:12:07   That's one of the things that I really like in Reminders.

00:12:10   In general I feel like it's too soon to tell maybe.

00:12:15   I don't think I can say "yeah I wanna switch to Reminders because of this and this".

00:12:21   It's two very nice features

00:12:25   but I don't know. Right now I can say that I'm satisfied with the

00:12:30   iCloud sync and this stuff with the deep links and activities it's really well done but I

00:12:38   want to see how it progresses with the iOS 9 Metas to see how it works.

00:12:44   I can say that I've been working well.

00:12:48   I've been completing my tasks.

00:12:51   I'm not too behind with my inbox and my to-do list.

00:12:57   As a basic app it is working.

00:13:00   Is it better than Todoist?

00:13:01   I don't know.

00:13:02   We'll see.

00:13:03   Do you not find that, like, you sometimes feel like it's a little too simple?

00:13:07   Like there are things that you want to do but can't do?

00:13:10   Yeah.

00:13:11   Sometimes I feel like it's too basic for me.

00:13:16   And I talked about this last year when I switched to Todoist.

00:13:21   I don't think Reminders is the kind of app that can scale when you become too busy.

00:13:28   Like last year it was crazy for me to cover the launch of iOS 8 and to organize all the

00:13:35   stuff, you know, multiple projects and I need to keep track of different types of articles

00:13:42   that I need to publish.

00:13:43   So I don't think Reminders is meant for that kind of management when you have too much

00:13:50   stuff going on and too many people you have to deal with.

00:13:54   Because these are just lists that you can share with other people if you want to.

00:14:01   Maybe there's a possibility that this better integration with apps can make reminders a

00:14:09   little more flexible.

00:14:10   I don't know.

00:14:12   It's very early to tell.

00:14:15   So I'm skeptical that it can be...

00:14:17   Of course it won't be as powerful as Todoist.

00:14:20   I can create filters.

00:14:22   I can hook up with the app with IFTTT and there's a Python API that I can use.

00:14:30   You can do crazy things with Todoist.

00:14:33   That's not possible with Reminders but there's this new stuff with Siri and activities that's

00:14:40   really cool.

00:14:41   So I will keep using it this summer, that's for sure.

00:14:45   Maybe until things get really crazy with work, I will keep using Reminders.

00:14:52   So we'll see.

00:14:53   >> Yeah.

00:14:54   I've found actually I've started using Reminders a lot myself since I got the watch because

00:14:59   it's...

00:15:01   And it's not replacing my like OmniFocus like project-based to-dos.

00:15:06   But what Reminders app seems to be really, really good at is like have your working list

00:15:11   of not like the things that are long-term

00:15:14   and that you need to worry about

00:15:16   over several weeks or months

00:15:18   or trying to organize something big and complicated,

00:15:21   but for just the small actual things

00:15:24   that are like where they really are reminders,

00:15:26   not to-dos and not like tasks.

00:15:29   It's amazing to pick up my watch

00:15:32   and just say, "Remind me to do this when I get home,"

00:15:36   or those types of things,

00:15:37   and then they're just right there.

00:15:38   Like I never had to open an app.

00:15:40   I didn't have to take anything out.

00:15:42   So I found that I'm starting to use reminders a lot more

00:15:44   for that kind of thing.

00:15:45   And it's just sort of like running in parallel

00:15:46   for these types of, much more sort of just,

00:15:49   you know, tasks that I'm expecting to do

00:15:52   probably in the next couple, you know, few hours

00:15:54   rather than things I'll be working on

00:15:55   over the course of several months.

00:15:57   - And Federico, you also purchased something.

00:16:02   - Yeah. - You did a mic.

00:16:04   - Yeah, I did a mic, yeah.

00:16:06   That's a move.

00:16:08   So I wanted to bring Bluetooth to my car because I have an old, very basic cable setup.

00:16:18   So there's an audio jack coming out from my dashboard and I just plug in my iPhone and listen to music and podcasts.

00:16:25   So I knew that there was a way to retrofit cars like mine with some Bluetooth accessories.

00:16:35   So I went to Amazon and I got this AUKEY, it's called A-U-KEY, K-E-Y, AUKEY device.

00:16:46   It's like a little puck that you stick to your car's dashboard.

00:16:52   It's like also like a little knob that you can twist to change volume, change tracks

00:16:59   and of course there's a button in the middle that you can press to bring up Siri, answer

00:17:05   and voice calls and also to do a bunch of other interactions with your iPhone.

00:17:12   So this is not CarPlay?

00:17:15   This is not CarPlay, this is just basic.

00:17:17   What's the standard?

00:17:18   A2DP for Bluetooth.

00:17:21   It's basic Bluetooth communication for iOS.

00:17:29   The second reason, so the first reason is that I wanted to have Bluetooth in my car

00:17:32   because I always struggle to plug and unplug when I'm driving and maybe I need to answer

00:17:39   a phone call and it's super inconvenient.

00:17:46   The second reason is that in iOS 9 and specifically in reminders there's a way to create reminders

00:17:55   for when you get and when you leave your car.

00:18:00   I was curious because there's no documentation from Apple.

00:18:04   You can only say "remind me to do this when I get in my car" or "remind me to do this

00:18:09   when I leave my car".

00:18:10   And reminders will, instead of having a due date or a location reminder, it will create

00:18:17   this new car reminder.

00:18:20   But Apple doesn't say whether it's only for carplay devices or if it works with Bluetooth

00:18:27   devices that it recognizes as being a car Bluetooth device.

00:18:33   So you can buy a generic one from Amazon like I did and say "remind me when I'm in my car"

00:18:38   and iOS will know that that's a Bluetooth device that you keep in your car and it will

00:18:43   fire off the reminder.

00:18:45   So I really wanted to try this because there's a lot of stuff that I need to do as soon as

00:18:52   I get in my car, like sometimes I need to take out the trash and there's no...

00:18:59   What's the name of when you leave the trash?

00:19:02   Like the garbage area.

00:19:05   It's not near my house, I need to drive there, so I need to keep the trash in the backseat

00:19:09   of my car.

00:19:10   And sometimes I forget, like I just drive by and I keep the trash in the backseat of

00:19:15   my car and of course it's always, you know, it's not a good solution to forget to leave

00:19:20   the trash in the proper garbage disposal area.

00:19:25   So there's stuff that I need to do when I...

00:19:28   As soon as I enter my car, like for instance with Bluetooth, I could remember to call my

00:19:33   mom when I'm in my car and I'm driving somewhere and I can just call my mom or some other person.

00:19:40   So I wanted to try this today.

00:19:41   I got the device, I set it up, it was easy enough and I tried it with iOS 9 Beta 1, so

00:19:47   it was my afternoon, the beta 2 was still not out and they didn't work

00:19:52   I got a bunch of people on Twitter saying that even if it's not CarPlay

00:19:57   these new car reminders in iOS 9 will have been working for them

00:20:02   with generic Bluetooth devices like mine

00:20:06   it wasn't working for me but I also got other people saying yeah it's been buggy

00:20:11   for me as well it doesn't work

00:20:12   and so it's it's not clear right now whether these new types of reminders

00:20:17   for getting in and leaving your car will work.

00:20:21   Even if you don't have CarPlay, I really don't want to buy a CarPlay device because they're

00:20:25   too expensive and because I have that kind of dashboard that it's all in one setup.

00:20:32   So I would need to go to a mechanic to basically change the entire thing and to put in one

00:20:40   of those aftermarket Pioneer devices.

00:20:42   I don't want to do that.

00:20:43   Don't do that just for reminders.

00:20:46   I don't, yeah, of course I don't want to do, you know, it would be nice to test them.

00:20:50   So maybe the beta 2 I will try again tomorrow, maybe it will work, maybe it won't, maybe

00:20:55   there's some more digging that I need to do to understand this, what types of devices

00:21:01   it will work with, or maybe Apple will clarify this, you know, eventually.

00:21:06   I don't know, it would be great for me to have this, I don't know if it works with the

00:21:12   Aukey device that I bought.

00:21:13   Well, there you go.

00:21:15   I look forward to hearing back.

00:21:18   Maybe you can record next week from the car trying to add reminders.

00:21:21   I think it sounds terrible.

00:21:23   There's a built-in microphone in the device but I don't think it sounds terrible.

00:21:27   Oh, perfect!

00:21:28   That's all we need.

00:21:29   Oh yeah, sure.

00:21:30   It's like a little, little dot in the device.

00:21:34   I'm not sure that the quality would be great, Myke.

00:21:36   I'm calling you from the car!

00:21:38   Yeah, sure.

00:21:39   That sounds great.

00:21:40   So professional.

00:21:41   I'm turning this into a theatrical thing over here now.

00:21:45   Alright, let's dig into some of this developer stuff,

00:21:49   but before we do that, let's do a quick thanks to our friends

00:21:55   over at Casper for sponsoring this week's episode of Connected.

00:21:59   Casper is an online retailer of premium mattresses

00:22:03   that you can get for a fraction of the price of what you will find in stores.

00:22:08   The mattress industry has always been forcing consumers

00:22:11   into paying really high prices because they use dealers and showrooms and resellers and

00:22:16   all that kind of stuff. But what Casper does is it takes all of that away and passes the

00:22:21   savings directly to the consumer. For example, mattresses can often cost well over $1500

00:22:28   but Casper mattresses cost between $500 for a twin, $750 for a full size, $850 for a queen

00:22:34   and $950 for a king sized mattress. And all of Casper's mattresses are made in America

00:22:40   and they have developed their own new hybrid mattress that combines premium latex foam

00:22:46   with memory foam.

00:22:47   These two technologies come together for better nights and brighter days because it has just

00:22:51   the right sink and just the right bounce.

00:22:54   A Casper mattress will provide you with long lasting supportive comfort but also they're

00:22:58   very very resilient.

00:23:01   Buying mattresses online kind of seems crazy for so many reasons because they're shipping

00:23:06   them to you which is one but they actually ship them in these boxes which is crazy so

00:23:10   So this box arrives which is impossibly small.

00:23:13   You just can't, you're like, "Oh, obviously this is some other thing and they're going

00:23:16   to send me a mattress later."

00:23:18   But no, you open the box and the mattress is all tucked away in there and you unfold

00:23:22   it out and you basically open this bag and all of the air just gets sucked into the mattress

00:23:28   and it starts to kind of come to life.

00:23:30   It's a very interesting thing to see.

00:23:32   It kind of like breathes its way back to life again.

00:23:35   It's kind of crazy.

00:23:36   I don't really know how they do that.

00:23:37   It must be some sort of incredible robots that get those mattresses in those boxes.

00:23:42   But Casper also understands that buying a mattress online is an interesting thing because

00:23:47   you know people are used to thinking "oh you go to the showroom and you try it out" but

00:23:50   when you're going to a showroom and trying out a mattress you're like sitting down on

00:23:54   it, you're in your regular clothes, you've got your shoes on so you're not laying on

00:23:57   it, you like sit down for a minute or two and then you kind of say "yep that's the one

00:24:00   that I want".

00:24:01   That kind of seems crazy because you're going to be sleeping on this thing every night for

00:24:05   years.

00:24:06   Casper does is they will ship the mattress to you and it's completely risk free.

00:24:10   You buy the mattress that you want, they ship it to you and they offer, they give free delivery

00:24:15   but they also do free returns within a 100 day period.

00:24:18   So if you've been sleeping on it and you think it's not the right one for you and you want

00:24:21   to change it, you can do that.

00:24:22   Or you want to return it, you can do that.

00:24:24   It's completely risk free for 100 days because Casper want you to enjoy your mattress so

00:24:30   they do that for you.

00:24:31   It's really really cool.

00:24:32   Listeners of this show can get $50 off towards any mattress purchase by visiting casper.com/connected

00:24:39   and use the code "connected".

00:24:40   Let's get you $50 off, terms and conditions apply, see the site for details.

00:24:44   Thank you so much to Casper for supporting this show and all of Relay FM.

00:24:49   So underscore, you were at WWDC, we were there together, but you actually attended the real

00:24:55   conference.

00:24:56   I did.

00:24:57   And so you've been in there, you've seen session videos, you've been to keynotes and stuff

00:25:00   like that.

00:25:02   Now that we're a couple of weeks removed, as a developer, what is your overall impressions

00:25:08   of the announcements?

00:25:09   Like, are you happy with them?

00:25:10   Were you left wanting?

00:25:12   Does it feel better or worse than last year?

00:25:16   So I think there's two kinds of WWDCs that I've been to, and I've been fortunate enough

00:25:24   to go for the last seven of them, where some years it's sort of like they're like laying

00:25:31   the foundations, like they're digging everything up and laying the concrete and building and

00:25:37   putting stuff onto developers that are like foundational for things to come.

00:25:42   But in the near term, it can be a little bit crazy for, you know, as a developer, it was

00:25:47   like, there's all these things that you have to adopt, all these things you need to take

00:25:49   care of.

00:25:51   And you have those years, like those foundational years.

00:25:53   And then you have years that are more like, I don't know, architectural years that are

00:25:57   just like, you have this foundation, now build a house on it.

00:26:01   And this year, I would say is the latter where we got Apple's been making all these investments

00:26:09   over the last couple of years into into technologies and things that as long as we've been sort

00:26:15   of keeping up with them this year, we just like here's a whole bunch of stuff that just

00:26:18   makes things better and easier and simpler.

00:26:22   you're not going to have to tear anything down and rebuild it.

00:26:25   And so I like those years as a developer, as somebody who makes my life,

00:26:29   makes my living making these apps.

00:26:31   Like it's nice to not have to feel like I'm,

00:26:34   like sometimes I come into this part of the summer and just look at all my apps

00:26:38   and it's like, all right, well, you know, like burn them all down

00:26:40   and let's get started because that's just, you know, what Apple does.

00:26:45   Like, you know, last year it was size classing and all the very flexible layout stuff.

00:26:50   and the year before was Iowa 7, which was a radical visual and design departure.

00:26:57   Whereas this year it's just like, things are just better, and things are nice.

00:27:00   And so I like years like this because I'll probably enjoy my summer a bit more.

00:27:04   Yeah I guess it's nice to have this year after two crazy years.

00:27:09   Like for as you say, burn it down and start again kind of stuff.

00:27:13   Yeah and it's the benefit of the way Apple tends to roll too.

00:27:19   You can very easily often look back at what Apple's been doing, and we only get to see

00:27:27   sort of their plans once a year or a couple times a year.

00:27:31   And so we have these few little data points that go along where we're like, "Okay, they're

00:27:37   going from here to there to there."

00:27:38   But when you look back and you see all the stuff they've done to get to here, it clearly

00:27:43   was intentional.

00:27:44   It's not like they're accidentally stumbling upon that they introduced auto layout and

00:27:50   introduced size classes and then they introduced big phones and now they're doing split view

00:27:58   on the iPad.

00:27:59   There's all these very clear linear progressions and so it's reassuring when we have these

00:28:04   years but it's also nice because if you've been making the investments early for the

00:28:08   last couple of years, then you finally get a payoff here where it's like everything should

00:28:13   be roughly in place for you.

00:28:17   What have been some of your favorite announcements, additions or changes that came out of WWDC

00:28:24   that either make your work a little easier or will allow you to take your apps further?

00:28:31   I think the most exciting things for me this year are all on the watch, pretty much.

00:28:36   There's a few things on iOS that are nice, like there's a new layout control stack view,

00:28:41   which will make some of the things I do a lot easier.

00:28:44   There's a few other bits and pieces, but for me the biggest things that I'm most excited

00:28:49   about are on the watch and basically making it a full development platform now.

00:28:57   Like before you could do stuff and you could make watch apps, but anyone who's used watch

00:29:01   apps in their current state knows they're not particularly capable, there's not a lot

00:29:06   of things they really can't do, they're not autonomous.

00:29:09   And so coming into this summer and looking at it as like the watch is now a platform

00:29:15   in its own right is very exciting to me.

00:29:19   You went to the sessions and the labs and stuff like that I assume this year.

00:29:25   What was your your overall opinion?

00:29:26   I mean for as much as you can say I don't even know if you're allowed to talk about

00:29:29   those things in any way but if you are what was your kind of feeling about that sort of

00:29:34   stuff this time around?

00:29:35   Yeah, I mean I think they continue to do the actual like the logistical and like performance

00:29:44   parts of the conference are always really well done.

00:29:47   It's one of the better run conferences I've ever been to, especially given its size and

00:29:51   its scope, that it's you know it's 5,000 people dealing with all kinds of things and many

00:29:55   of which I'm sure are being kind of pulled together at the last minute, but you know

00:29:59   all the sessions are really good.

00:30:01   I tend to actually not go to that many sessions these days.

00:30:03   I tend to spend most of my days in the labs.

00:30:06   I think it's like the...

00:30:07   I've been doing it long enough that I realize I can always watch the video of the thing,

00:30:13   but it's very rare that I'll have an opportunity to sit down with an Apple engineer and talk

00:30:18   to them about what I'm doing.

00:30:20   So even if I don't really have good questions, I'll just find somebody and sit down and talk

00:30:24   to them.

00:30:26   It helps you read between the lines a lot better, I find.

00:30:30   If you start to have these conversations and you ask them, "Oh, I see you did this.

00:30:35   Why did you do that?"

00:30:36   And sometimes their answers are things that are helpful to get you a sense of context.

00:30:41   And so I do spend a lot of that.

00:30:42   But it's nice.

00:30:43   And it's kind of a crazy week, but it's always a very good week and logistically everything

00:30:49   always works, which is nice.

00:30:50   But definitely come home completely exhausted.

00:30:55   So David, as the developer of the excellent Parameter++, what do you think of the changes

00:31:04   in HealthKit and the enhancements?

00:31:06   I know that your app maybe won't necessarily use these new features in HealthKit for developers,

00:31:15   but still I think I look up to you as one of the experts on this developer technology,

00:31:20   So I kind of wanted to know what you think of the HealthKit changes in iOS 9.

00:31:27   >> Sure.

00:31:28   So I think the biggest, there's sort of two categories of changes that they did to HealthKit.

00:31:33   And I am expecting to make use of a lot of these this summer.

00:31:36   But they added a bunch of stuff to the framework in terms of on the data collection side.

00:31:41   You can now track reproductive health and UV exposure and a few other new categories

00:31:47   of data, which is nice.

00:31:49   nice, it expands out what HealthKit can do, I think there's a new thing for bulk deleting

00:31:54   of entries and kind of keeping track of clearing out data, which is useful but isn't really

00:32:00   a functional improvement.

00:32:03   And then I think on the second side, and the thing that makes me most excited, is they

00:32:06   expanded out HealthKit that is now available on the watch as well.

00:32:11   And so for me, like I use my watch, my watch's primary function beyond, I guess, telling

00:32:18   the time for me is doing activity tracking.

00:32:21   And so being able to now properly go back and forth

00:32:25   with HealthKit onto the watch is a huge win.

00:32:29   That I can now access the same kind of APIs and the same data sources

00:32:33   that I could from, you know, on my phone, I can now access on my watch.

00:32:37   And so I can, you know, surface data. And this is like in pedometer plus plus.

00:32:41   The problem I have now is dealing with the data issue between,

00:32:45   I mean, you know, there's now an activity tracker in my phone and there's an activity

00:32:48   tracker in my watch.

00:32:50   And they're independent, you know, each device has its own, you know, step counter, essentially.

00:32:55   And so they'll each have different estimates for how many steps you took.

00:32:59   And that's exactly kind of the problem that HealthKit is designed to solve, where it's,

00:33:05   you know, its whole, like, reason for being is a place to, you know, gather all this data

00:33:11   together, aggregate it together in a reasonable way, and then present it to applications for

00:33:16   display.

00:33:18   And so the fact that they're now bringing that health kit so health kit's everywhere

00:33:21   now, I can now show that data and I can integrate, integrate data collected from the watch with

00:33:26   data collected from your phone.

00:33:27   Theoretically, I could also integrate data collected from any other device that you may

00:33:31   be counting steps with or doing anything like that.

00:33:35   And so I think it's going to be able to, like we can finally present a cohesive view that's

00:33:41   consistent across all the different places that you might look for that data.

00:33:44   And so that's pretty, like for me that's a very exciting part about

00:33:48   HealthKit because I can open up, you know, there's a whole lot of health and fitness

00:33:51   apps that I'm in the early stages of, you know, thinking through or starting to

00:33:54   code up because I think it's, you know, it's a really fun place to work and now

00:33:59   like all kinds of things are now possible that just weren't possible before.

00:34:05   So, David, tell me about the watchOS, because I've seen, I feel like some conflicting feelings

00:34:16   about this.

00:34:17   Some people say that it's just what they were looking for, some people say that it's still

00:34:21   not enough.

00:34:22   How do you feel about watchOS, and what do you think are some of the key parts of it?

00:34:28   Yeah, so at first blush, I think people who say that who are maybe disappointed about

00:34:34   it are probably people who weren't invested in it into WatchKit before would be my suspicion.

00:34:41   Because if you've been doing WatchKit apps before, what they did is incredibly pragmatic,

00:34:48   where essentially they took WatchKit apps before where you had the thing that runs on

00:34:53   the watch which is just like the UI part like just the part the user sees and touches was

00:34:59   running on the watch and every all the logic was running on the phone but it was running

00:35:04   in an extension you know separate from the actual application itself you know so it's

00:35:08   not it was in this own little bundle and all they did in watchOS you know to a first approximation

00:35:14   is they took that logic bundle and now you can run it on the watch and so if you have

00:35:20   any existing applications, if you have any code, if you've been doing, going along with

00:35:23   this, a lot of your apps will just be better in watchOS 2 with almost no work because they

00:35:30   kept everything the same.

00:35:31   Like they didn't just say, "Oh, that watch kit thing you've been doing for the last six

00:35:36   months, just throw that all away.

00:35:38   We have this whole new thing."

00:35:39   Like they just said, "We're going to take what we've been building on and the same paradigms

00:35:43   and the same approaches to things are just going to map over to watchOS 2."

00:35:47   but now they run actually on the watch.

00:35:50   And so things will, which has two major benefits, I mean the first one is, I think the one that

00:35:55   most people are going to appreciate is that everything is just faster now because everything

00:35:59   isn't being streamed over from your phone.

00:36:03   So there's not weird Bluetooth issues, there's not weird, you know, just like latency issues,

00:36:08   all the stuff that make watch apps right now cumbersome at best and unusable at worst.

00:36:15   Like a lot of that just goes away, and now we can do a lot more because they're running

00:36:21   autonomously on the watch.

00:36:23   You no longer need your phone to be right next to you in order to do things.

00:36:30   I mean there's even stuff now where your watch is going to be able to do basic networking

00:36:35   over a wireless network that it knows.

00:36:38   So if your phone isn't even nearby, or you go to work and you live with your phone at

00:36:45   home, you can still actually do some stuff on your watch because your watch knows that

00:36:49   wireless network.

00:36:50   And it just makes the watch a much more capable device.

00:36:54   And then they brought onto the watch a whole host of frameworks, like I was just saying

00:36:58   with HealthKit, but they did the same thing with CoreMotion, PassKit, some MapKit changes.

00:37:03   There's all kinds of these basic frameworks that are the building blocks of iOS apps,

00:37:07   now available on the watch.

00:37:10   And so you can do a lot of things.

00:37:13   And I mean I think for me it's exactly what I was hoping for because I've been spending

00:37:17   a lot of time working on WatchKit over the last six months and so they took the approach

00:37:21   of like okay if you've been making an investment there now it pays off.

00:37:24   Now you can take all the things you just built and just make them better.

00:37:28   So of course I want to ask you about the iPad and of course the split views and slide over.

00:37:34   So have you been looking at… a lot of people have been saying if you paid attention to

00:37:40   Apple in the past two years and you know size classes last year, you knew that this was

00:37:46   coming so hopefully you will be ready to support these new multitasking features on the iPad

00:37:51   from day one because if you have been paying attention you've already done most of the

00:37:58   work.

00:38:00   What have you been doing with your apps?

00:38:02   Did you anticipate this type of feature coming to the iPad?

00:38:06   Are you ready to support multitasking and split view and this new stuff?

00:38:12   Yeah, I mean, for the most part, it's, I think it's, I wasn't sure if we would get split

00:38:18   screen on the iPad.

00:38:19   It was something that's been rumored for a long time.

00:38:22   And exactly the form that we got it is fairly consistent with what like the old early rumors

00:38:27   of even, it seems like a year ago.

00:38:29   We had a whole bunch of rumors about split screen coming to the iPad, but I think the

00:38:35   biggest thing that honestly has probably paved the way for split screen being really relatively

00:38:39   easy for a lot of developers to do, and SlideOver especially, is just the fact that there's

00:38:45   the iPhone 6 Plus, which from a technical perspective, it was sort of the first device

00:38:51   that fit in this really odd, it didn't feel like an iPhone in the same way.

00:38:56   Obviously it is an iPhone, but in the sense that it was really bigger.

00:39:01   It wasn't just like going from the 4 to 4S to the 5 where like the screen got taller.

00:39:08   It's like, okay, well, it's just taller.

00:39:10   And like a lot of apps are just a list of things.

00:39:12   So you just make the list bigger.

00:39:14   And then, you know, the 6 is bigger, but it wasn't quite as radical of a change for me

00:39:18   is from in my coding work with the 6 Plus, if you wanted to really take advantage of

00:39:23   it, like it's a big screen with a lot of things.

00:39:26   And so you really, whether you wanted to or not, you had to kind of adopt the size classing

00:39:31   and dynamic adaptive layout stuff.

00:39:34   So now when you look at what they're doing on the iPad and split screen, it's like, well,

00:39:39   in some ways when the app is running split screen landscape is conceptually in a lot

00:39:45   of ways just like running two 6+ apps at the same time next to each other.

00:39:51   And SlideOver is essentially just running an iPhone 6 or a 5s app on the sidebar that

00:40:00   just happens to be really tall.

00:40:03   And so a lot of that stuff is pretty straightforward to do if your app is updated for the 6 Plus.

00:40:09   There's a very good chance that adding support for split screen is going to be relatively

00:40:15   straightforward.

00:40:17   Taking full advantage of it is probably going to be a slightly different thing.

00:40:19   That's always the case where you can make the app fit on the screen and display reasonably,

00:40:24   but you always have to get into the questions of would you display or adapt your interface

00:40:30   differently if it's in split-screen mode versus if it's in full-screen mode versus if it's

00:40:35   running on an iPhone.

00:40:37   But technically, it's reasonably straightforward.

00:40:42   >> How much do you use an iPad personally?

00:40:44   >> Not at all.

00:40:45   >> Yeah, see, this is interesting.

00:40:48   Do you think that's going to change?

00:40:50   Is there potential to change?

00:40:53   When you see these...

00:40:54   I've been talking about this.

00:40:56   I never used an iPad.

00:40:59   Now I use one every day, happily.

00:41:02   Still?

00:41:03   Still using your iPad mic?

00:41:05   Yeah.

00:41:06   And Federico, you're going to be very happy with me.

00:41:08   There are some times where I'm doing something, maybe I've got my iPhone or whatever, and

00:41:12   I'm like, "This would be easier on the iPad."

00:41:16   I've had that thought.

00:41:17   So, you know, I'm enjoying my time with it now.

00:41:22   I actually quite like the big screen.

00:41:24   And I really like, and I just cannot wait

00:41:28   to have all of the apps that I use

00:41:30   support the split screen stuff.

00:41:32   - Nice, look at you.

00:41:33   - Yeah, the tricky thing I always find with the iPad is,

00:41:36   it's like when I work, like work, work,

00:41:41   like with the job I do, like I kind of have to do it

00:41:44   on a Mac because there is no Xcode for the iPad.

00:41:50   My actual development environment is on a Mac.

00:41:54   I work on a big 27-inch Retina display and have a dozen windows open at a time, so that

00:42:01   type of work I don't think I could do on an iPad.

00:42:04   And so an iPad for me would probably end up then falling into the category of entertainment

00:42:10   or more sort of like light casual uses.

00:42:15   And it's always felt like my iPhone is better at that because it's always with me, it's

00:42:21   tiny.

00:42:22   I don't have to keep things in sync or make sure stuff's in two places.

00:42:28   It's always just there, it's always in my pocket.

00:42:30   And so I always end up like, I've tried having iPads around the house and so maybe if they're

00:42:36   available like when I'm sitting down to look at something I'll just look at it on my iPad,

00:42:40   it just seems to never really have clicked for me, but it's, you know, and like in Splitview

00:42:45   is nice, but it falls into that category of like, if you're using your iPad for like productive

00:42:53   things and the work you're doing is possible to do on an iPad, it certainly seems to make

00:42:58   it better.

00:42:59   You know, and like that part of it's kind of nice, but I'm probably just going to, if

00:43:03   I'm going to be doing, being productive, I'll be doing it on my Mac, and if I'm being unproductive,

00:43:07   I will be unproductive on my phone probably still.

00:43:12   I've never fully reconciled in my mind how I feel about this, but I just find it interesting

00:43:18   that a lot of indie developers that I know don't use iPads.

00:43:24   And it just makes me question if that is an issue for iPad development.

00:43:32   If you don't use the device, then maybe people don't understand how to properly think about

00:43:36   I don't know.

00:43:37   I'm not saying that it is that way or the other, but it's just always an interesting

00:43:41   thing to me.

00:43:42   >> BRIAN KARDELL Yeah, I think it's definitely a problem.

00:43:45   And honestly, it's probably one of the things that I imagine...

00:43:51   There's two things that have probably slowed down in some ways, like true, genuine innovation

00:43:57   on the iPad.

00:43:58   And I don't think that that isn't happening, but I think there's things that are like a

00:44:02   drag on that and slow it down.

00:44:05   And one of them is just the economics of the App Store in general, and the fact that to

00:44:08   really make a full, rich iPad app takes more work than an iPhone app in a lot of ways,

00:44:15   or at least in some ways.

00:44:17   And the App Store isn't great at roboting that necessarily.

00:44:21   And the other is that it just doesn't seem...

00:44:25   It fits in...

00:44:26   The iPad is really powerful and effective for a narrower group of people than the iPhone.

00:44:35   And just sort of by definition from that, that isn't going to, you know, there's a lot

00:44:40   of people who are, like, as who are developers, but who fall into that category of not really

00:44:45   having a good home for it, or for whom it's a device that's purely just like we're watching

00:44:51   videos on, or like reading news and things.

00:44:55   And so I do worry that, you know, I know for sure I'm not really able to take full advantage

00:45:01   of it, and I'm not doing things on it that I probably would if I used it all the time,

00:45:05   but I'm not sure what Apple can do to turn that around, because it's a very sort of chicken

00:45:10   and an egg problem.

00:45:13   There are things that are keeping me from doing it, and because things are keeping me

00:45:17   from doing it, I'm less able to do those things in the first place.

00:45:21   But it definitely is something that's weird, and I'm sure I make a lot of assumptions in

00:45:27   my iPad apps that are probably not 100%, but I've tried before to force myself to use it

00:45:34   more but it never really works because I just get so used to doing things on my phone that

00:45:39   it's always going to be more convenient and less of a hassle.

00:45:43   Developers should consider using Xcode on the Mac to actually program and editorial

00:45:50   on the iPad to write documentation for their apps so they can use a little bit of both.

00:45:57   They can get used to the iPad and they can start using markdown automation on the iPad.

00:46:04   So it could be an idea.

00:46:06   You should start a campaign Federico.

00:46:09   Write your documentation on the iPad.

00:46:12   Yep.

00:46:13   You can do this.

00:46:14   This is all on you now.

00:46:15   Now please don't launch one of your hashtags again.

00:46:20   Don't do one of those campaigns because people are just going to keep mentioning me on Twitter.

00:46:27   is

00:46:34   Oh my god. Perfect.

00:46:37   There you go. #documenticci.

00:46:40   So what does a developer need to do? If they start writing documentation on the iPad?

00:46:48   Take a screenshot and then use the hashtag #documenticci and then they can join the campaign

00:46:54   for iPad documentation.

00:46:56   Okay. Well, I will get more tweets thanks to you, Myke. I hope.

00:47:03   I'm improving your brand engagement scores.

00:47:06   Thank you. What does this mean in cloud score?

00:47:11   Seven.

00:47:12   Okay, cool. That's good. That's good, right? That must be good. Yeah.

00:47:17   I want to talk about the iOS 9 public beta because that's something that we haven't really

00:47:22   spent much time talking about and I think that there's some interesting ramifications

00:47:26   from that. But before we do that, this isn't really so much a sponsor. It's just something

00:47:31   that I want to talk about, which is AppCamp for Girls.

00:47:34   AppCamp for Girls is currently on a mission.

00:47:37   In case you don't know what this organization does, they encourage girls to pursue app development

00:47:42   as a career.

00:47:43   They teach them how to make iPhone apps in a fun, creative summer camp program environment

00:47:48   under the mentorship of women developers.

00:47:51   AppCamp is shifting the gender balance in our industry and they're doing an incredible

00:47:54   job.

00:47:56   They need to do more and they want to do more.

00:47:58   With AppCamp 3.0, they want to bring this campaign to more girls in more locations.

00:48:08   At AppCamp for Girls, they go through a program of learning how to brainstorm, design, code

00:48:14   and pitch their apps in just one week.

00:48:16   It's a massive confidence builder, it shows people that this is a fun and creative business

00:48:21   and it allows them to work with women in the industry, accomplished developers, designers,

00:48:26   testers, support specialists and more whilst they're at the time at the camp.

00:48:29   And right at the very last day, the girls pitch their applications and their ideas.

00:48:34   And they do this in front of a panel of investors and entrepreneurs, of course,

00:48:39   all female investors and entrepreneurs.

00:48:41   They listen to the pitches and then they will give encouragement

00:48:44   and ideas for future development.

00:48:46   Now, AppCamp for Girls has grown incredibly.

00:48:48   They started with one camp in 2013,

00:48:51   and now they have locations in Portland, Seattle, Vancouver and Canada.

00:48:55   and there are at least four new locations being considered for 2016.

00:49:00   Every camp that they do has had a waiting list so far and they also want to get to the

00:49:03   point where they are able to build more capacity so they can reach all of the girls in all

00:49:08   of the locations who want to be a part of this program.

00:49:11   But this is where they need your help.

00:49:12   To achieve these ambitious plans of scaling AppCamp, they need the support of everyone

00:49:17   who wants to see more girls and women in tech.

00:49:19   Your donations will buy equipment, recruit and train volunteers and build the curriculum

00:49:23   Without the support of this community, AppCamp for Girls would not be possible.

00:49:28   If you are listening to this and you believe in this and you all should, I really, really

00:49:32   would love if you would give them some money.

00:49:34   This is so important that they are able to try and get the money that they need and it's

00:49:39   down to you to do that.

00:49:40   Give as little or as much as you can.

00:49:42   They have an Indiegogo campaign running right now to help them get the funding that they

00:49:46   need.

00:49:47   If you go to, this is a tricky URL but it will be in the show notes as well, it will

00:49:52   directory straight there or you can google for AppCamp for Girls Indiegogo

00:49:55   but it's ac4g.net/relay4appcamp

00:50:00   so ac4g so appcamp for girls ac4g.net/relay4appcamp

00:50:05   you'll have a link in the show notes you can click it there give what you can

00:50:08   thank you very much okay so the ios 9 public beta so if I'm right guys this is

00:50:17   in July right this is gonna be coming out should be I think so yeah David as a

00:50:23   developer this is terrify you a little bit it I it isn't great it's not it's

00:50:31   not a particularly fuzzy and warm feeling it is I wouldn't say terrifying

00:50:36   but like he's never terrified David doesn't know what I mean with all your

00:50:43   apps? I have no fear but on the plus side it theoretically should mean that iOS 9 when

00:50:50   it ships is more stable and better for customers generally. Like obviously what do I have like

00:50:59   Apple is doing this for the obvious reason that if they have more people who are not

00:51:07   developers using their beta software before it gets released to the wider audience that

00:51:13   And hopefully they will catch more bugs, that things will ultimately be more stable, that

00:51:17   we'll identify issues earlier in the development cycle rather than having to catch them in

00:51:22   September, they can catch them in July.

00:51:25   That part sounds great.

00:51:29   There are a few things that are always a little bit terrifying about it though.

00:51:32   And obviously the biggest of which is people who aren't developers will now be running

00:51:37   software on a beta OS and any shortcomings in my application that they see will potentially,

00:51:48   in their mind, could reflect poorly on my app rather than on the OS.

00:51:52   Hopefully, you know, they would be aware of that, like, if they're running iOS 9 and it's

00:51:57   a beta, that if things crash, things don't work, like, that may not be my fault, but

00:52:03   But the biggest fear I think I probably have is that, and you see this happen often where

00:52:10   something will change in a beta OS that means that your app will just crash at launch every

00:52:16   time.

00:52:17   Anyone who runs it because there's some weird thing that it's usually an easy fix or a very

00:52:23   basic thing to do, but that's the case.

00:52:25   And if someone then expects, has to think things like my app is broken, goes to the

00:52:31   the App Store, writes a one-star review, that's problematic.

00:52:36   And so that's the part that makes me a little bit nervous.

00:52:39   Overall, it's kind of a mixed feeling.

00:52:41   I think there's a few things Apple could do to make that less scary.

00:52:46   For example, if you're running the beta OS, you can't submit reviews in the App Store,

00:52:50   would be nice, or something like that.

00:52:52   But generally speaking, I think Apple is doing it for the right reason.

00:52:56   last year we were all complaining about iOS 8 and how buggy it was or whether

00:53:02   you know like are they really as you know like the things seem a little bit

00:53:06   a little bit less a little bit more broken than sometimes we would like and

00:53:09   so like if they're doing something like this like getting more people on it like

00:53:12   that's them answering that question it seems so like mmm well it makes me

00:53:17   nervous I think it's probably overall a good thing. Like obviously there are

00:53:23   implications for users right battery life instability that kind of stuff as

00:53:28   well as it just being issues as a developer like there are people that are

00:53:33   going to install this that are gonna end up being very unhappy and I'm going to

00:53:37   assume there will not be a simple downgrade path like you were kind of

00:53:41   stuck is what I would I would assume it's probably the same as most iOS betas

00:53:47   where you can restore your phone and it'll go back to the previous one typically, which

00:53:55   is obviously not a straightforward and nice thing to do.

00:54:01   You're restoring from a backup and all kinds of awkward things.

00:54:05   But hopefully also by the time it gets to the public, like we just got beta 2 today,

00:54:11   and I have it on a test device and it seems reasonable.

00:54:15   My guess is by the time Apple goes public with it, we're probably going to be talking

00:54:20   about beta 3, beta 4, which maybe is reasonable in that way.

00:54:26   The battery life may not be as good, there'll be some instabilities, but I'm sure Apple's

00:54:33   being thoughtful about this and doing it in a way that they'll be able to...

00:54:37   What they're showing them is not like it's a release candidate, which it wouldn't really

00:54:40   at that point be, but they're doing something with it.

00:54:43   I mean, another thing that is like, as well as people like rating your app badly or whatever,

00:54:51   or complaining about it, I assume that you would probably expect to see increased support

00:54:56   during this period of time.

00:54:59   Like there could be a potential for that in some instances.

00:55:02   Yeah, and though honestly like that side of it, like the people coming directly to me

00:55:06   and saying like, "I'm having this problem, I'm running the iOS 9 beta and I'm having

00:55:10   this problem, for me that is completely, is utterly invaluable.

00:55:15   I love that because either, I mean, one of two things has happened.

00:55:20   Either it's an issue I'm aware of that I've fixed or I'm about to fix, which case I can

00:55:24   just tell them that, like, "Hey, it's a known issue.

00:55:27   Sorry."

00:55:28   Or they've discovered something that I haven't.

00:55:31   That's the whole point in the first place of them running it, is if they find this weird

00:55:33   case where on the new OS something breaks, I'd much rather hear from it from a limited

00:55:39   group of people, you know, because especially like the thing that's kind of honestly in

00:55:43   some ways scarier as an iOS developer now is like it's a wonderful thing that we have

00:55:49   where iOS adoption is like ridiculously fast.

00:55:53   I think last for iOS 8 we had almost 50% of people running it within like a week or a

00:56:00   week and a half or something like it is like mind-bending how fast that happens.

00:56:05   But the scary part of that is if something's broken, suddenly half my customers are dealing

00:56:13   with a broken issue for a week before I can get an app through App Review.

00:56:19   And so in some ways that pace can be kind of a scary thing too.

00:56:23   And so if they can catch it early, I'll take that.

00:56:29   Overall like I said, it's a weird thing and I think I'm very curious to see who is going

00:56:34   to be the typical person who's going to want to participate in the beta program?

00:56:40   Is this people wanting to... just kind of like people who are super techy and would

00:56:47   listen to Connected but aren't developers?

00:56:49   That kind of person who really is engaged and likes this kind of stuff but isn't able

00:56:54   to get it through the developer program?

00:56:56   Is it just kids wanting to show off to their friends?

00:57:00   I don't know.

00:57:01   Who's that person going to be?

00:57:03   And I think depending on which demographic it ends up actually being will have a pretty

00:57:07   substantial impact on how impactful it actually is to a developer.

00:57:14   I think that there are some interesting avenues to consider, stuff that Apple could do or

00:57:20   maybe should do to help make this process easier for developers as well, because it

00:57:27   will have an impact.

00:57:29   So I wonder, should they be able, or should they stop people from being able to leave

00:57:35   reviews during this period if they join the beta maybe?

00:57:38   That would probably be a great help to you, right?

00:57:40   Yes.

00:57:41   I mean, I think that is the single biggest thing that would, it just seems like it makes

00:57:47   sense that if you open the App Store on a beta OS that you can't leave reviews.

00:57:53   Maybe that's a bit of an odd thing for the customer, where they're like, "Well, why can't

00:57:57   I do that?

00:57:58   I want to test everything out.

00:57:59   I want to test how I can leave one star reviews.

00:58:03   But I think that things like that make a lot of sense to me where it's just like I would

00:58:08   love if you opened up the App Store on a beta OS and you went to the review screen instead

00:58:12   of it saying like, you know, we don't allow leaving of reviews from beta OS's.

00:58:18   If you have an issue, please contact your developer.

00:58:20   And like Apple has my support email.

00:58:22   Like it's part of my App Store page and they just have a big button that says like contact

00:58:27   developer, they hit a button, pops up a mail sheet with the information about their device,

00:58:32   and we can go from there.

00:58:34   That would be amazing for me as a way to focus the problems into a constructive place, because

00:58:44   inevitably there will be problems.

00:58:46   And so if Apple can do whatever they can to funnel people towards a productive output,

00:58:50   that would be great.

00:58:53   during this period, so say like between 7 and 8, if there is a crash that's happening

00:58:59   in your app in 8, but we're currently in the 7 cycle or whatever, are you able to fix that?

00:59:10   It's very situational.

00:59:11   Sometimes you can.

00:59:14   The weird, the awkward thing is, until probably the, I think it's the second Tuesday in September

00:59:20   typically, we won't be able to submit apps that are linked against iOS 9, that use the

00:59:25   new tools, that take advantage of the new stuff.

00:59:28   And so if there's a problem that would require that, that Apple has made some change in a

00:59:36   way that the only way to fix it is to use the new stuff to fix it, you are just stuck.

00:59:42   You can't do anything to fix it.

00:59:45   Sometimes there are weird workarounds and things you can do or the issue is just like

00:59:52   oftentimes the issue is more that the new OS exposed a bug that was already there that

00:59:58   you can work around.

01:00:00   But it is definitely a weird awkward place you find yourself where people are running

01:00:05   software that you can't directly fix in a lot of ways because other than putting them

01:00:10   on TestFlight, I suppose, and sending them beta builds of the app, you're stuck with

01:00:16   whatever the shipping version of your app is until September.

01:00:21   Do you think that that should change?

01:00:26   I don't know how they could do it in a reasonable way.

01:00:28   It would seem a really awkward thing to have multiple versions of binaries submitted to

01:00:33   the App Store.

01:00:34   I mean, essentially we have that with the TestFlight process, where we can, up to a

01:00:39   thousand people I think we could send testing builds to, and my suspicion is that it'll

01:00:44   cover most cases.

01:00:47   Hopefully the beta...

01:00:48   I mean, honestly, I'm hopeful that the beta process isn't a tremendously wide audience,

01:00:54   that it isn't...

01:00:55   There's not going to be 50 million people running the iOS 9 beta.

01:01:01   Hopefully it's a few hundred thousand maybe, or something like that, where more likely

01:01:05   than not, given for any particular app, the number of people who are having a particular

01:01:11   problem is relatively small and enough that you could deal with it on a one-off basis.

01:01:16   But yeah, I think for me that would just make things really complicated.

01:01:23   If I was trying to manage not only my shipping store version that most people see, and there's

01:01:29   another version that I've shipped to customers through the store but isn't part of that same

01:01:36   process.

01:01:37   I think it would just make things more complicated because the reality is it's only really for

01:01:41   about three months or two months.

01:01:44   So it would probably just work itself out.

01:01:47   Federico, have you heard anything about the limits of people that can get into the beta?

01:01:54   No, not at all.

01:01:56   In fact I don't even know what the numbers for the Yosemite beta last year were.

01:02:04   I have no idea.

01:02:06   Was that a million?

01:02:08   I don't know.

01:02:09   Was it a million people on Yosemite beta?

01:02:11   I don't know.

01:02:13   I think you need to sign up on a special Apple webpage.

01:02:17   Yeah.

01:02:18   It was beta.apple.com.

01:02:20   There is a page where you can sign up.

01:02:23   You can say I want to be able to test betas from you eventually and then Apple will decide

01:02:30   if you can participate in the beta program.

01:02:35   But I don't know if they have any public numbers when it comes to the number of users that

01:02:40   they want to enable in the open beta.

01:02:43   Something that I wanted to bring up when David mentioned TestFlight.

01:02:51   In the past two weeks, and this is of course something that will stop being a new trend

01:02:58   very soon, but a few developers already have iOS 9 betas for their apps that some of them

01:03:05   wanted me to start playing around with these betas on iOS 9.

01:03:12   And because TestFlight still doesn't allow developers to upload builds for linked against

01:03:19   iOS 9, I've seen after many many months invitations to download apps from hockey, crashlytics,

01:03:29   and all these services that I stopped using a while ago.

01:03:33   And now in these past two weeks, because we're in a sort of limbo with TestFlight, I've been

01:03:39   trying to use these services again, and my god, I remember, like, I realized how much

01:03:47   better TestFlight is than all the services that you need to install a certificate on

01:03:52   your device, go to Safari and it's just, you know, this...

01:03:58   I think TestFlight is much better as a user experience.

01:04:01   You download an app from the App Store and you don't need to care about anything else.

01:04:05   They got the orange dots, which you don't like.

01:04:09   I hate the dots.

01:04:11   But it is a much better experience for the user.

01:04:13   So in the past two weeks I'm already trying this hockey and other services.

01:04:19   I can't wait to download betas from TestFlight for iOS 9.

01:04:24   I'm pretty sure you can do that now.

01:04:28   I don't know if this is a new thing, but I'm pretty sure TestFlight supports iOS 9 beta

01:04:33   builds.

01:04:34   I just logged into iTunes Connect and it says you can now do iOS 9 beta builds through TestFlight.

01:04:40   I don't know if that's recent.

01:04:41   Is that internal testers or also like the public testers?

01:04:44   Oh, okay, yes, yes.

01:04:45   So the difference between internal testers, yes.

01:04:47   Internal testers can do it, maybe not public testers.

01:04:49   Yeah.

01:04:50   So it's, I mean, the reality is I think that's going to be coming soon.

01:04:53   And yes, everything other than TestFlight, having now used TestFlight is terrible.

01:04:58   And I'm expecting from, like, I'll be waiting until I can do, invite public testers before

01:05:04   I do any kind of, you know, inviting people to look at apps and things.

01:05:08   I mean, at this point, it's also way early.

01:05:12   It seems kind of crazy to be sending out betas of things that can't be used properly until

01:05:17   September.

01:05:18   But yeah, I definitely agree.

01:05:22   Anything other than test flight, using hockey or things, like back in the day where you

01:05:26   have to collect people's device IDs.

01:05:28   Oh my god.

01:05:30   Every time they have a...

01:05:32   You get the email like, "Hey, Federico just got a new phone, so now you need to go and

01:05:37   and update it and that was madness and that's why it's a lot better.

01:05:43   My main problem with those services was always that every now and then it would just stop

01:05:48   downloading.

01:05:49   It just wouldn't work anymore, like apps just wouldn't download anymore and it didn't matter

01:05:54   what I did about it, it would just be like "oh well that just doesn't work now".

01:05:58   It's like okay.

01:06:00   No more betas for you Myke.

01:06:02   Nope.

01:06:03   Yeah, and as a developer I hated that process.

01:06:08   It was a nightmare to manage and work with.

01:06:15   The new TestFlight thing is great.

01:06:17   It works just like how you'd want it to do it.

01:06:19   All I need from you is your email address and I can send you my app.

01:06:24   That's exactly what I'd want to do.

01:06:25   And so I've been very pleased with that.

01:06:29   I kind of wish that the TestFlight emails had the change log for a build directly in

01:06:36   the email instead of having to go to the TestFlight app to do what's new.

01:06:42   I just wish I would stop getting those emails.

01:06:45   Like I would just like to just get the push notification.

01:06:48   I don't want the emails.

01:06:49   Can I stop the emails in any way?

01:06:51   Have you seen that Federico?

01:06:52   I don't think you can.

01:06:54   I don't think you can.

01:06:55   Maybe you can create like a filter or like a rule on Gmail.

01:06:58   Good idea.

01:06:59   Yeah, I'm going to do that because I get two notifications.

01:07:01   You could probably do it in editorial, right?

01:07:03   Editorial can probably do that for you.

01:07:06   Yeah.

01:07:07   Well, in theory, you should be able to install a Gmail Python module.

01:07:11   Exactly.

01:07:13   But mic.

01:07:16   This is still – so mic is now getting into the whole iPad automation stuff, but maybe

01:07:22   Maybe Python is still a bit early for Myke, but you will get there eventually, Myke.

01:07:27   You will come to me and you will have a need for Python and you will say, "Look, I've

01:07:33   come so far.

01:07:34   Now I need to automate some crazy podcasting stuff using editorial and Python."

01:07:39   I know that will happen, Myke.

01:07:41   I'm scared of snakes.

01:07:43   This week's episode of Connected is brought to you by Igloo, the internet you'll actually

01:07:48   like.

01:07:49   With Igloo, you don't have to be stuck at your desk to do your work, and you don't have

01:07:52   to be stuck at looking at something that was designed by someone who didn't really like

01:07:58   you because it looked so bad.

01:08:00   This is a world that you don't have to worry about when igloo is your intranet.

01:08:05   You can manage your task list from wherever you want, you can do it when you're supposed

01:08:10   to be concentrating on a meeting but instead you just want to get some stuff done instead

01:08:13   because the meeting is boring.

01:08:14   Or maybe you want to share your status updates with your colleagues as you're on your way

01:08:19   back from a sales meeting to congratulate yourself on the great deal you've just done,

01:08:24   or maybe you want to work on a client's files from home or something like that whilst you're

01:08:29   in your pyjamas because nobody will really know because you can still be as productive

01:08:33   in your pyjamas and you can be productive with igloo.

01:08:36   These days everything is mobile and your work should be too, but with that comes some frustrating

01:08:41   things like, you know, these days everybody wants to use mobile services like Box and

01:08:46   Google Drive and Dropbox because they integrate with their devices and they love them and

01:08:49   they want to use them. But what ends up happening is the documents that should be all in one

01:08:53   place in your company get scattered all over the place. But igloo will allow you to integrate

01:08:57   these services into one big easy to secure platform.

01:09:02   igloo looks fantastic too. It's really configurable. You can give it a complete rebrand to look

01:09:06   exactly like the look and feel of your team or company. And you're also able to with their

01:09:11   drag and drop widget editor to reorganize the whole platform to fit the needs of specific

01:09:16   teams as they need them. You can also share files with your co-workers for you all to

01:09:20   collaborate on. You can also track who has read them with read receipts. This makes sure

01:09:24   that everybody is on the same page and ensures that everybody is looking at critical information

01:09:29   and it can be checked on when they need to. It's time to break away from the internet

01:09:33   you hate. Go and sign up for igloo right now and you can try it for free with any team

01:09:37   of up to 10 people for as long as you want. So sign up right now igloosoftware.com/connected.

01:09:42   Thank you so much to Igloo for their support of this show, and Relay FM.

01:09:47   So Taylor Swift and Apple Music.

01:09:50   I didn't want to spend a ton of time on this because the story, like Apple kind of ruined

01:09:54   this for us because we didn't even get a week to complain about them.

01:09:58   They just-

01:09:59   No, 17 hours on a Sunday.

01:10:01   17 hours of arguments on the internet, which were destroyed by ADQ.

01:10:07   I had so many thoughts and so many notes about how Apple was evil and then they kind of ruined

01:10:13   it because they just gave the money.

01:10:14   But, um, so basically for anybody that's not aware of this, Taylor Swift wrote an open

01:10:18   letter to Apple, criticizing Apple for the fact that they were not going to be paying

01:10:24   people during the first three months, the three month free trial of Apple Music.

01:10:28   They were not going to be paying artists.

01:10:30   Um, Apple had said previously to this that they were supposedly paying a little bit more

01:10:36   and that kind of thing and that all balanced it out evenly but this wasn't enough and Taylor

01:10:42   was like you know I think this isn't fair I'm keeping my music off the service I think

01:10:46   a couple people should too and I think Apple should pay they have the ability to etc etc.

01:10:51   And then as Federico points out 17 hours later EddyQ issued three very peculiar tweets

01:10:58   to announce the situation that were just weirdly worded and didn't even seem to be in the right

01:11:05   order and that was the way that they decided to tackle this. Then Eddie made a

01:11:11   selection of phone calls to different media outlets to explain Apple's position

01:11:16   on this and it seems that Apple is going to be paying some money to artists

01:11:23   during this period but for it basically appears to be they will be paying the

01:11:27   industry streaming average which is not what they will be paying after the first

01:11:32   three months. So Federico, I'm interested to know from you how you felt about this.

01:11:41   What was your stance on the fact that once Taylor spoke out,

01:11:46   how did you feel about Apple and now how do you feel considering that they appear

01:11:50   to have changed their minds? Well my basic stance is that when you provide a

01:11:59   a service that offers content made by other people. It doesn't matter whether to your users the service

01:12:07   is free because it's a trial. If you're offering content from other people and that content is

01:12:13   usually paid content, they get money for that, it doesn't matter you should be paying those people.

01:12:21   That was my basic idea. So I agreed with Taylor Swift on the principle that having a free trial

01:12:29   that was free for the users but also a forced free trial for the artists. I

01:12:34   agree that that was very odd from Apple. I don't agree with Taylor Swift on her

01:12:40   general thoughts on streaming and keeping her catalogue of Spotify and

01:12:47   Google music and until today also Apple music but that's another topic. I think

01:12:52   that when it comes to Apple's interests, they shouldn't use music from other people as a

01:13:00   way to convince users to try their new Apple Music service.

01:13:08   Because it's simply to me, you can make tons of different arguments and there were tons

01:13:14   of different ideas on Twitter.

01:13:16   That the free trial, you could make it up with a higher pay rate eventually, but that's

01:13:22   a flawed argument because what if people don't subscribe and you cannot apply the higher

01:13:27   rate, then effectively you've just given away music for free. And there are other people

01:13:32   saying yes, but those three months you benefit from the promotion by Apple and the iTunes

01:13:39   team on Twitter and Apple Music, which is another flawed argument because there would

01:13:45   be no promotion without the content from other people.

01:13:48   >> And also, exposure doesn't put food on the table.

01:13:51   >> Exposure is when you get people saying, look, we want you to work for free,

01:13:57   we want you to give us your stuff for free, and you say, yeah, but what do I get in return?

01:14:02   When you get exposure, you should run from those people always.

01:14:06   So my basic -- as soon as I read the open letter, my basic thoughts were

01:14:16   that Taylor Swift was right on the trial. She's still, in my opinion, misguided about

01:14:22   streaming. I don't think the streaming scenario will play out as she imagines. But she is

01:14:30   in the position to say "I don't care about streaming, I want people to buy my album".

01:14:36   She can say that, but she's an exception. But yes, it was just obvious to me that Apple

01:14:43   was going to change its decision and to start paying artists.

01:14:50   It seems like they reached an acceptable compromise.

01:14:55   You know, we're going to pay the industry standard because we got people here for free

01:15:00   and eventually we'll pay a higher rate because we can get people to pay and we believe in

01:15:06   the paid model.

01:15:07   I think that's a fair compromise because you adapt to what others are doing.

01:15:14   So you adapt to the same rate of Google, of Spotify, and Pandora, and all these other

01:15:19   radio services.

01:15:21   That's fair.

01:15:22   I think that's...

01:15:23   It's like so many other people are obsessing over the fact that Apple is not paying the

01:15:28   artists directly, they're paying the rights holders and the labels.

01:15:32   But that's just the way that the music industry is structured.

01:15:37   You cannot blame Apple for being part of a whole bureaucracy and a whole structure that they cannot change overnight.

01:15:47   The fact that they've gone back to their previous decision, they're now paying, that's good.

01:15:54   But what concerns me, since the Apple Music introduction, there were a lot of people

01:16:02   commenting on problems in Apple Music.

01:16:07   And those problems were some minor, some personal.

01:16:12   So they complained about the intro, the Drake, the EdiQ dancing, the long demo, the developer conference.

01:16:22   But if anything, I believe the only concern that I can come up with at this point was the decision of giving away music for free and later following some backlash from indie publishers in the UK and Germany and Taylor Swift, you go back and you change your mind.

01:16:45   That's a sign of concern to me, not Drake, not AdiQ, not the developer keynote.

01:16:51   That's a sign of they're trying this new game, they're trying this new service, a new landscape for Apple, music streaming.

01:17:01   And at least in this case, they couldn't make up their mind immediately on a stance.

01:17:10   stance, we want to pay artists even during the free trial. And the reversal is concerning

01:17:17   to me.

01:17:18   Especially the speed.

01:17:20   The speed, it's just why did you need Taylor Swift on Sunday to call up Tim Cook and say

01:17:26   look we gotta talk about this and then you can put together a strategy in 17 hours. Why

01:17:32   Why did you need that?

01:17:33   Why did you need that sort of kick from a popular artist in pop music to say "Yeah,

01:17:42   we were wrong"?

01:17:43   It's just, you know, that's strange.

01:17:45   It's always strange when you do that kind of reversal so quickly.

01:17:52   But anything else?

01:17:55   the fate of Apple Music won't be decided by this.

01:18:00   For as much as it sounds awful, people don't care.

01:18:04   People want to pay... people don't want to pay, but if they want to pay, they want a

01:18:09   good service.

01:18:10   I think that the family option will be especially popular, because for $15 you get 6 people.

01:18:18   That's something that, at least to my knowledge, no other service offers.

01:18:23   And whether Apple Music works or not, whether it will be a major new service for Apple,

01:18:28   whether it will establish itself as the leading streaming service in the music industry, that

01:18:34   will be decided by the actual service.

01:18:38   Not even by Taylor Swift, not by the trials, not by REQ making phone calls on a Sunday

01:18:44   night, that will be decided by the service and whether the features are worthy of people's

01:18:50   money.

01:18:52   And that's coming in seven days.

01:18:55   So do you know the little Majora's Mask countdown in Zelda when the moon is crashing on Termina?

01:19:04   It's like the little dialogue.

01:19:07   How many hours is in seven days?

01:19:08   I don't know.

01:19:09   Many.

01:19:10   A hundred and many hours remaining.

01:19:13   So we'll see next Tuesday.

01:19:16   The family plan would be a lot more appealing to me if it wasn't tied to iTunes Family Sharing

01:19:23   or the iCloud Family Sharing.

01:19:25   Why?

01:19:26   Because I would like to pay for me and my girlfriend for Apple Music, but I can't imagine

01:19:34   that we're gonna dive into iCloud Family Sharing as a thing.

01:19:38   Why does it just seem like a whole world of trouble for that, you know?

01:19:43   I feel like there would be ramifications that are wider that we then have to deal with like

01:19:49   iTunes purchases and things like that.

01:19:52   It feels like you're not ready to say you're a family.

01:19:56   That is true.

01:19:57   That is very true.

01:19:59   Moving along, David, what's your opinion on the Apple Music stuff?

01:20:04   Do you have any differing opinions to Federico at all?

01:20:08   The thing that I think is most like the actual like contract negotiations are hardly like

01:20:15   something that is particularly interesting, like to think about like it's ultimately it's

01:20:19   always going to come down to who has like who has the most power who wants it more.

01:20:23   How you know who's how much they're willing to spend to get that like that's just like

01:20:28   I don't know, like that doesn't particularly interest me.

01:20:32   The part that is fascinating about this though is that it seems very, there is something

01:20:39   very fundamentally strange that a major musician, probably one of the best known musicians now

01:20:48   in the world, calling out Apple and then Apple immediately flipping around on that and then

01:20:55   trying to engage on Twitter with her.

01:20:58   It just feels awkward.

01:21:00   And the thing that I think about as a result is, is it indicative of...

01:21:08   I sort of think about Apple Connect, right?

01:21:10   This whole thing where they're in with the artists and super connected and have the social

01:21:14   media thing.

01:21:15   It's an area that I think that this is not a great example of them being really connected

01:21:21   with artists and being in it in that way.

01:21:26   And on the flip side, it feels a little bit like Apple...

01:21:31   Like obviously Apple, I mean, they're the most profitable company in the world.

01:21:35   But you kind of wonder if they're because of that, and because of what they're used

01:21:39   to being able to do in...

01:21:45   What they're able to do in other areas.

01:21:48   Like if they go into a contract negotiation at Foxconn or something.

01:21:53   I imagine they can just power through that and do amazing things.

01:21:58   But in this case, like the artists, they need them and they have to respect them

01:22:03   in a way that they're just may not are being used to.

01:22:06   And that's kind of worrying in a lot of ways.

01:22:08   Yeah.

01:22:08   I think that's interesting, right?

01:22:10   Because I think that they walked in and they were like, hang on a minute.

01:22:14   We revolutionized music and then realized that the entire music

01:22:18   industry has changed since they did that.

01:22:21   And Apple were once the internet music company,

01:22:26   and then the entire industry changed again,

01:22:29   and they are now just catching up at this point.

01:22:32   And I think that that threw them off guard a bit.

01:22:35   I think that maybe Eddie Q and Jimmy Iovine

01:22:38   thought that they could walk into these negotiations

01:22:41   and play hardball, but it's actually turned out

01:22:44   that the music labels, they don't need Apple anymore.

01:22:49   and they definitely don't need Apple like they needed them 10 years ago.

01:22:53   And I don't know what I mean is I don't do you.

01:22:58   I don't think that the the music labels are crying for either.

01:23:04   Well, let's say Apple does do something revolutionary again.

01:23:08   The music labels don't want Apple to have all that control again.

01:23:12   They take 10 years to get away from that,

01:23:16   and now they might be walking back into it again,

01:23:18   which is why I don't think that they are not as strong in the negotiations as they used to be.

01:23:24   Well, the music labels are always happy when they see the money.

01:23:28   So maybe they don't know it yet. But I mean, if Apple's plan works,

01:23:34   there'll be a lot more people paying for streaming than there are people using Spotify or Google Music for free with ads.

01:23:42   So the labels may say, "We spent 10 years to get away from the iTunes store,

01:23:48   and to get away from Apple. But as soon as they see the money, I bet they will be a lot more friendly to Apple.

01:23:54   I don't know man, because iTunes made a lot of money, but they didn't like that Apple had all of the power.

01:24:02   I don't know if the record labels want to get back into that situation with them again.

01:24:07   Because, you know, I think one of the reasons, I mean, because this music streaming service has been rumored for years,

01:24:13   and my understanding is the deals weren't done when they were on stage two weeks ago.

01:24:19   I think that the record labels are playing hardball with Apple because and they have

01:24:25   been doing it for years because they don't want Apple to be in control again. But we'll wait and

01:24:29   see. I mean it's probably at this point everybody is going to get on board. I think that there's

01:24:35   I am making a bet here that at least one major record label will not be signed up next week.

01:24:42   What's stronger as a desire for the music labels? To get away from the free

01:24:51   strategy of YouTube and Spotify or to get away from Apple? Because if you consider the basic

01:25:00   problem for these big corporations is not Apple as an evil entity, it's people not

01:25:07   paying for music. So even if they may despise the way that Apple does business and that

01:25:14   maybe Apple stuff only works usually on Apple devices, even though Apple Music could also

01:25:20   be on Android, even if they may not like the way that Apple is structured, I think they

01:25:28   They don't like not having money more.

01:25:32   So if you can convince these people that yes, it's Apple and yes, maybe you don't like some

01:25:38   of their ways, but there's people using YouTube and Spotify and you're not getting money from

01:25:45   those people.

01:25:46   Now you can get some money from those people and maybe even a lot of money, but it's with

01:25:50   Apple.

01:25:51   In my mind, they won't particularly care.

01:25:55   It goes back to arguing where the money comes from, which was one of your points in your

01:25:59   article about Taylor Swift, and you were talking about concerts and stuff.

01:26:02   The labels take a cut of that.

01:26:05   So they're still getting the money.

01:26:07   It's just moving where the money comes from.

01:26:10   And look what Apple Music has, a connect section.

01:26:14   I mean eventually it's only obvious that they will sell concert tickets inside Apple Music.

01:26:18   Again, so like do they want all of that in Apple's ecosystem?

01:26:22   I don't know if they do.

01:26:23   I really don't know if they do, but like...

01:26:24   it's money. I don't know man, I feel like you're considering too logical a scenario

01:26:33   for record labels. I'm considering money. I'm only looking at money. That's to me the

01:26:38   only metric with these corporations. If they are happy with the money, they're also happy

01:26:44   with the people who control the money, and they give the money too.

01:26:48   Hmm. I don't know. I don't know.

01:26:51   A lot of this too I think comes down to who needs who more, right?

01:26:58   If Apple feels like they need to have a compelling music offering on their platform, to have

01:27:05   a compelling platform, then Apple is going to need to pay for it, I imagine.

01:27:10   If the record labels feel like they need Apple because they don't like whatever, that Spotify

01:27:16   or RDO or YouTube is taking over their business, then they'll pay a lot more for it.

01:27:23   But it's ultimately, anything like this is just going to come down to who needs who more.

01:27:30   But I agree, Myke, I agree with your thought on Apple coming back to the music industry

01:27:37   and realizing that since the last time they walked in and they made the item store, and

01:27:46   And now they're kind of late to the streaming service wars and they are realizing that there's

01:27:52   a lot of players in town.

01:27:54   It kind of feels like you're dead going to the same club as you and realizing that kids

01:28:00   these days use different drugs than you remember.

01:28:04   And you know, when you go to the club, there's that guy in his 40s and he's looking around

01:28:12   and he doesn't know what to do and he has a drink but he doesn't know what type of drink

01:28:17   he's supposed to drink.

01:28:19   That's all with streaming services.

01:28:21   But the question is whether they can adapt quickly.

01:28:27   Especially the Connect section and the Beats one, which I think very few people are talking

01:28:31   about, if these two things are successful, they can kind of reshape the way that you

01:28:39   think of a streaming service for music.

01:28:41   And if they are successful, which is a big bet and a big question, but if they are, if

01:28:47   a lot of people come to expect or come to talk about Connect and Beats 1, I bet that

01:28:53   within a year Spotify and Google Music will have the same features.

01:28:58   I think the question that remains to be answered, and something we can't see for a while, is

01:29:07   Apple music really be enough to make people switch or but more importantly to

01:29:13   make people start to pay who are not paying because that's what they're

01:29:18   betting on right but will that happen we don't know it's gonna be interesting to

01:29:23   see next week I expect we'll have a lot more thoughts on next week's episode

01:29:27   yeah for sure we're actually gonna be recording on Wednesday next week which

01:29:32   which will give us all time to play around with the service a little bit more so you

01:29:37   can look forward to that.

01:29:38   I just want to make sure that iOS 9 devices will get the music stuff next week.

01:29:47   Yeah, that's a problem because, well I mean I'll have to reinstall iOS 8 for reasons that

01:29:54   I'll explain eventually, this weekend anyway.

01:29:57   So I think that by, I don't know, if by Wednesday they all have iOS 8 still.

01:30:03   So right now on iOS 9 beta 2, the music app is still the old music icon.

01:30:08   It doesn't look like we'll get the, I don't know, I mean we could get Apple Music on iOS

01:30:15   9 next week but with the old icon for the app, maybe, I don't know.

01:30:20   I would expect iOS, you won't get Apple Music next week in iOS 9.

01:30:26   That would be my suspicion, because there's not going to be Beta 3 next week of iOS 9.

01:30:32   And it's kind of not important, like, during that period.

01:30:38   The public beta will have it, I can assure you, so maybe it will change them to maybe

01:30:43   Beta 3 or 4 or something.

01:30:45   Right, I think that about wraps up this week's episode.

01:30:48   Thank you so much to Mr. David Smith for joining us.

01:30:50   David, where can people find your work online if they would like to do that?

01:30:54   I am @_davidsmith on Twitter or developing perspective.com

01:30:59   Excellent stuff. Thanks again to our sponsors this week, Igloo, Casper, and don't forget

01:31:04   to check out AppCamp for Girls as well. If you want to find us online, I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E,

01:31:11   Federico is @viti, V-I-T-I-C-C-I, and Federico writes over at MacStories.net. And this week's

01:31:17   show notes for episode 45 of Connected can be found at relay.fm/connected/45. And we'll

01:31:25   be back next week. Until then, say goodbye guys.

01:31:28   Arrivederci. Adios. Oh nice.

01:31:34   [BLANK_AUDIO]