21: 50% my Duty


00:00:00   (upbeat music)

00:00:02   - From Relay FM, this is Connected, episode 21.

00:00:11   Today's show is brought to you by Hover,

00:00:13   simplified domain management and Loot Crate,

00:00:16   a monthly subscription box for epic geek

00:00:18   and gamer items and pop culture gear.

00:00:20   My name is Myke Hurley and today I'm joined

00:00:22   by Mr. Steven Hackett.

00:00:23   Hello, Steven Hackett.

00:00:25   - Hello, Michael Hurley.

00:00:26   - And the glorious return of Federico Vittucci.

00:00:29   Hello, Federico.

00:00:30   Hey guys, how are you?

00:00:32   Happy to have you back.

00:00:33   I'm happy to be here again.

00:00:36   Happy New Year to Steven.

00:00:38   You too, buddy.

00:00:39   Because we didn't talk, I said Happy New Year to Myke last week, but I didn't say that to

00:00:44   you.

00:00:45   So do you celebrate the New Year in Tennessee?

00:00:51   We are aware of it.

00:00:52   They have a different calendar.

00:00:54   Yeah, you do.

00:00:56   It's 1945 in Tennessee.

00:00:59   In some ways that's not untrue, but yeah, no, it was lovely.

00:01:03   Had a nice Italian dinner actually, and then went home.

00:01:09   What did you have to eat?

00:01:11   I had, well, so Italian in air quotes, right, because Federico's here, but I had a lovely

00:01:18   ravioli and meat sauce and some salad and some tea.

00:01:24   It was good.

00:01:27   So what did you do at midnight?

00:01:29   Did you just stare at the OS X installer?

00:01:34   I was in bed early.

00:01:36   I didn't see the midnight.

00:01:38   My idea would have been better, I think.

00:01:41   Probably.

00:01:43   I think I should have gone with what you went with, but I'm old and saying up to midnight

00:01:47   seems impossible.

00:01:48   Cool.

00:01:50   So yeah, it feels good to be back, Myke.

00:01:53   The last episode was really great.

00:01:55   You guys did a great job, I think.

00:01:57   2014 has been a strange year for technology.

00:02:02   What do you think we're gonna see this year?

00:02:05   - The Apple Watch.

00:02:06   - The Apple Watch, like Jeff Bezos buys a real AFM.

00:02:10   - Federico, you sound a little under the weather.

00:02:14   - I do?

00:02:14   - Yeah, you sound like you've got a cold.

00:02:16   - Well, yeah, I had one like a couple of weeks ago.

00:02:22   - Are you still, did you have a heavy new year?

00:02:27   Like a week later, are you still feeling the effects of New Year?

00:02:29   Well, you know, it takes a while to get back to the usual routine.

00:02:39   It's been a, let's say, it's been not a great first week of the year for me,

00:02:47   but now it should be getting better.

00:02:50   That's how I like to look at it.

00:02:55   One of the unfortunate things about 2015 so far is that we have 100,000 pieces of follow-up.

00:03:02   It's an entire page in our Google Doc.

00:03:06   This is the most I've ever seen, so do you want to get started?

00:03:10   So we'll get started.

00:03:11   So FU number one.

00:03:14   FU number one?

00:03:17   You're saying FU but then you're calling me number one.

00:03:19   It's very conflicted.

00:03:22   like you're the best worst person I know. So listener Arno, Arno, listener Arno

00:03:29   wrote in and basically asked do App Store rejections, which we've talked a

00:03:34   lot about of course, matter in the grand scheme of things? So Arno's argument is

00:03:38   that while app rejections are like obviously a big deal to us and our

00:03:44   friends, that maybe like normal people it's not such a big deal that you know

00:03:50   like Federico likes to call them normal people you know his like our friends who

00:03:54   aren't in this space like a do they even use these apps that get like bumped you

00:04:00   know by Apple and even if they do like is it is it a big deal that these

00:04:05   features or these apps are like held back because you know most people don't

00:04:09   really care about things like today widgets that can fire app actions and

00:04:14   that sort of thing so at least my two senses that I will concede that this is

00:04:19   sort of a problem that is limited to a certain slice of the App Store and a

00:04:25   certain slice of customers of the App Store but I would argue that it is part

00:04:28   of the market that Apple should pay attention to because we do have

00:04:32   influence in you know the press and that we are the people who Apple needs to buy

00:04:37   the watch on day one and who will end up behind the watch on day one more than

00:04:42   likely so while we are a small part of the market I would argue that we're an

00:04:45   important one. I don't think normal people, my friends as I call them, I don't

00:04:54   think they care about the same apps that we care about. They don't use stuff like

00:04:59   Drafz or Peacalc. I mean there are people of course who use them but it's

00:05:05   just on average I don't see those kinds of you know more articulated apps on

00:05:11   on other people's home screen.

00:05:14   But the ignorance doesn't make it right, just because the majority of customers on the App

00:05:21   Store don't use the same apps that we do because we are more tech-savvy or we just like to...

00:05:27   I mean, Steven, you run a website about comparing the best apps for the job.

00:05:34   Because millions of people don't...

00:05:36   They just want the free utility from the App Store.

00:05:38   don't want the best or the more powerful app, it doesn't mean that Apple shouldn't be paying

00:05:44   attention to this problem, especially because when they have rules and when they don't follow

00:05:49   those rules, that's just wrong, and when you come up with a stupid exception that's just

00:05:56   stupid, there's no excuse for the stupidity of some app store rejections.

00:06:01   So if you want to make up rules as you go, I don't think that's a great idea.

00:06:07   I think Apple should update the guidelines and clearly state "here's what we want you

00:06:13   to do, here's what you cannot do" because that's a new rule on the App Store.

00:06:21   I don't think that releasing new iOS features just like they did with iOS 8 at WWDC and

00:06:29   then saying "yep, we have this feature but you cannot use it because otherwise we're

00:06:34   going to reject you".

00:06:35   I don't think that's a great behavior from Apple, I don't think that's a great strategy.

00:06:41   So even if people don't care about this, it doesn't mean that Apple shouldn't be better,

00:06:48   and hopefully next year they will be better.

00:06:50   I think, for myself, part of the problem that I see with this is the indie developers that

00:06:56   go through these problems end up being the people that set trends that the bigger apps

00:07:00   follow.

00:07:01   So if you look at stuff like port-refresh or like x-coreback URLs, things that are used

00:07:07   now by all the biggest apps because they end up setting trends or design features or just

00:07:13   standard interaction methods that we get used to, these things were all pioneered by indie

00:07:19   developers who were pushing the envelope and if Apple makes it harder and harder and harder

00:07:22   for them it's going to stunt the development of the entire platform.

00:07:29   It's like you're going against the people who experiment and come up with all the ideas

00:07:34   that eventually trickle down to more mainstream software.

00:07:42   So I think it's extremely important to make sure that the people who like the pioneers

00:07:47   of software always get the best deal, you know?

00:07:52   And that's really problematic, you know, for people like us because these are the apps

00:07:57   that we use and that we love, and it's concerning to see a company releasing all these features

00:08:04   and then months later, even after approving these apps, coming up with all sorts of exceptions

00:08:09   and then you...

00:08:11   And even that's not necessarily the worst part for me.

00:08:14   The really bad part about these apps or rejections is first you approve an app and then you reject

00:08:23   it and then the following day because the developer went to the press you accept the

00:08:28   app again.

00:08:29   It makes it seem like you don't know what you're doing.

00:08:32   That makes Apple look weak, I think.

00:08:35   Yeah.

00:08:36   And when they say, because they had this crazy weird blog post on the developer blog, and

00:08:44   they were like, "Remember that the most effective way to appeal to a rejection is to use the

00:08:50   app review board."

00:08:51   It's not true because when people went to the press, to TechCrunch and other blogs, that

00:08:57   was clearly the most effective way because it took less than 24 hours.

00:09:02   And there was a blog post from Panic where they say that because of these blog posts,

00:09:07   we managed to get transmit with the iCloud Drive feature back on the App Store.

00:09:12   So what you're saying on the developer blog sounds like an excuse because it's not true.

00:09:17   It's really weird.

00:09:18   I don't know.

00:09:19   Marco's take on it that it kind of sounded like a threat yeah it was kind

00:09:25   of sound like a threat it's like a sort of like I don't know it sounds like a

00:09:28   Godfather type thing you know yeah you know it's good for you an offer that

00:09:34   you can refuse exactly yeah Phil Schiller's just outside someone's house

00:09:40   with a baseball bat waiting for them to come out yeah we should we should move

00:09:44   You come to me on the day that I reject your app? Speaking of app store

00:09:53   rejections, our Myke's app, sort of, the wonderful tg-tweets had an issue

00:10:02   with their icon and I actually had that thought in beta that he was using the

00:10:06   or Myke was using, not Myke, was using the Twitter bird in the logo and

00:10:12   apparently Apple rejected it because it was a misleading use of the Twitter logo

00:10:19   and it looks like he's got a new one at least on his profile.

00:10:22   Yeah somebody has saved the day and helped Danny out with a new logo but I just

00:10:28   thought it was interesting like "and now our apps rejected it!" Yeah!

00:10:33   Yeah so you know it that's one thing I can understand you know kind of getting

00:10:39   close to another brand but there's definitely silliness.

00:10:43   - But we failed as beta testers

00:10:46   because we should have done better.

00:10:48   - Stephen failed 'cause I haven't even noticed it.

00:10:50   - I thought about it but it didn't say anything.

00:10:50   - It just didn't tell anyone.

00:10:52   It's like, oh, the app doesn't work on my phone

00:10:54   but you'll work that out.

00:10:56   - Yeah.

00:10:57   - So--

00:10:59   - There's a new icon coming.

00:11:01   Did you guys see the tweet from--

00:11:03   - It looks good.

00:11:04   - I didn't see the icon, I just saw the tweet.

00:11:06   It's his Twitter bio picture, the feather.

00:11:11   - The quill.

00:11:13   - Oh, nice. - Yes, thank you, Myke.

00:11:14   Looks good.

00:11:15   So, on occasion we have talked about photo management

00:11:21   on our show.

00:11:22   I don't know if you guys have noticed.

00:11:24   - Occasionally? - Occasionally.

00:11:27   So, FU2 is about photos on iCloud.com,

00:11:31   disappeared for a little while.

00:11:32   So there's a link to the Mac observer.

00:11:36   basically Apple didn't say anything and iPhoto was,

00:11:41   or not iPhoto, Photos for iCloud.

00:11:44   Is that what we're calling it, Photos for iCloud?

00:11:45   Is that what Apple calls it?

00:11:46   It's very confusing.

00:11:47   - iPhoto in iCloud. - Apple Photos in the cloud

00:11:49   match in the cloud and--

00:11:51   - iPhoto in iCloud in iOS.

00:11:54   - In the match. - Yes.

00:11:56   So I think that's kind of weird,

00:11:58   but it's still in beta, right?

00:11:59   So if they took it down and put it back up,

00:12:01   like I think that's whatever.

00:12:03   I was gonna ask you, Federico,

00:12:06   And I meant to ask you, when we spoke about this a couple weeks ago, what does photos

00:12:10   on iCloud match tunes?

00:12:13   What does that look like on OS X?

00:12:16   Do photos just show up in the iCloud drive in Finder or can you even access them at this

00:12:20   point from the Mac?

00:12:21   Because the photos for OS X app is not out yet, of course.

00:12:24   So what's the experience like on your MacBook Air?

00:12:26   Okay, you're going to hate me for this.

00:12:30   I don't know.

00:12:31   Because you're not running Yosemite.

00:12:33   No, no, I am.

00:12:35   I just didn't bother to look because I just look at pictures on my phone and my iPad.

00:12:40   You're in front of your MacBook Air right now.

00:12:44   Go to finder.

00:12:45   Where I'm supposed to look, okay.

00:12:48   There's no iCloud drive in my sidebar.

00:12:50   It's called the iCloud photo library, by the way.

00:12:53   So do you have it on mic?

00:12:55   Yes, I do actually.

00:12:57   Okay, so what does it look like if you have...

00:13:00   What does it look like on the Mac?

00:13:01   I have my iCloud drive and there's no...

00:13:03   There's no photos folder.

00:13:04   There's no photos folder, there's nothing.

00:13:08   There's other apps that I use on iOS and the Mac, but no photos.

00:13:12   Okay, and the chat room is screaming that it's just in the browser, so it's on iOS and

00:13:17   the browser.

00:13:18   Yeah, I used the iCloud.com web app for the one time that I wanted to look at pictures

00:13:25   on my Mac for some reason, probably because I was in a sort of Steven Hackett fugue state.

00:13:33   I wanted to look at pictures.

00:13:35   Yeah, because I mean, I'm taking pictures on my phone.

00:13:37   Why would I want to look at pictures on my Mac?

00:13:40   I mean, it's not like I use, I don't know, one of those widows that they use like FX

00:13:45   to do post-processing on photos, whatever.

00:13:47   I just take pictures and save them and send them to my mom and my friends.

00:13:52   You know, I just don't process photos.

00:13:54   What does it mean to process photos?

00:13:56   I have no, I have no idea what I'm doing with pictures.

00:14:00   My photo library is currently being prepared.

00:14:05   It's preparing itself?

00:14:06   Yeah, it's currently preparing itself.

00:14:09   I don't know what that means.

00:14:10   Well, I've just logged in.

00:14:11   Guys, you know when they show you, when there's people and they're excited to see, like, "Oh,

00:14:18   in this photo editing app, you can see all the curves and all the levels and I have no

00:14:23   idea what that means."

00:14:24   That excites me.

00:14:25   Yeah, I know.

00:14:26   I know that excites me.

00:14:29   Sometimes I try to tweak those sliders and I mess up every time.

00:14:34   And a picture turns all dark and gloomy and that sucks.

00:14:40   I don't have any sort of photographic knowledge.

00:14:45   So I just take pictures and I save them on my phone and that's it.

00:14:48   So I'm sorry, Steven, but I had no idea.

00:14:52   But it doesn't seem like they're available in the Finder.

00:14:56   So I've never looked online before and it practically looks just like what it does on iOS.

00:15:02   Yeah, there's a screenshot in the chatroom from the wizard and it's just a grid of images.

00:15:08   Yep.

00:15:08   So we'll add that to the show notes.

00:15:11   Michael?

00:15:12   Yes.

00:15:13   Where could people find the show notes?

00:15:15   Relay.fm/connect2/21

00:15:17   Wow, you were all minimalistic.

00:15:20   So it's my new rethinking for 2015.

00:15:24   This is the new Zen.

00:15:27   I want to just give the people what they want as fast as they can take it.

00:15:33   That was really quick.

00:15:34   You just really gave it to them fast.

00:15:37   So follow up number three.

00:15:39   We're almost halfway there.

00:15:42   Last week during the show I promised that I would look up our show notes in my virtual

00:15:48   machine that is running Next Step, but my Next Step VM doesn't have a browser.

00:15:53   So if you are out there and you can help me install a browser in my Next Step VM, please

00:15:58   contact me because I would like to do that and to be fair I spent zero time looking into

00:16:03   it but if you want to help me, get in touch.

00:16:06   Is that because you failed?

00:16:08   It's because I forgot about it again.

00:16:10   You failed didn't you?

00:16:12   You don't know how to do it.

00:16:13   Wow.

00:16:14   I didn't even look into how to do it.

00:16:18   You don't just know though?

00:16:20   I don't just know.

00:16:21   Okay.

00:16:22   I could do it in, you know, OS 8. So the next bit of follow-up, follow-up 4, follow-up IV,

00:16:31   if you will, for doing Roman numerals. Myke, I want to toss this to you about Google and the

00:16:38   Motorola numbers from last week. Did you read this link in on the New York Times? No. Okay. Well,

00:16:44   there's a link in the New York Times about the Google and Motorola acquisition because I think

00:16:49   We goofed up the numbers, but it's hard to tell because it's all very confusing.

00:16:52   But if anybody did, it wasn't me.

00:16:54   It was your segment.

00:16:56   Nah, I don't think it was.

00:16:57   Okay, well apparently some numbers are weird.

00:16:59   If you're upset, then go read that link, which you can find in the show notes.

00:17:04   Thank you very much to whoever sent that in.

00:17:06   Yeah, I don't know who sent that in.

00:17:08   So...

00:17:09   I failed.

00:17:10   You really...

00:17:11   Follow-up IV was just a disaster, wasn't it?

00:17:14   It really was.

00:17:16   I'm really sorry.

00:17:17   - Should we move on to-- - I'm sorry for you guys.

00:17:22   You sound really sad.

00:17:26   - It's really coming off, we're 17 minutes in

00:17:29   and the wheels are just off.

00:17:30   So the next three follow ups five, six and seven

00:17:35   are about our show notes in browsers.

00:17:37   And the first one is in a homemade browser

00:17:41   that Will Richardson on Twitter apparently made a browser

00:17:45   when he was 14 and he used it to load our show notes.

00:17:48   - So can he just make browsers these things?

00:17:51   - He did, it's called Meteor version 1.2

00:17:53   and the show notes don't load very well

00:17:55   but made his own browser so that's pretty cool.

00:17:59   - Did he make it just so like, for us?

00:18:04   - If he's 14 now then yes, but I read it

00:18:07   as if it were in past tense.

00:18:09   - Okay.

00:18:10   - He doesn't look like he's 14.

00:18:13   - Okay.

00:18:14   The next the next couple links, it's just so weird,

00:18:19   listener Brian loaded our show notes in a browser called 3B. Why is it 3B?

00:18:25   What is that? It's your own personal 3D space. It's very

00:18:32   strange. There's a link in the chat room to this. You should definitely go try it

00:18:38   out. You guys lit up these dropper links so quick. Do you guys look at this?

00:18:43   Myke, did you know that the PlayStation Home thing where you control this little human

00:18:50   in a virtual space? The next step is to ask people to do stuff like open the relay website

00:18:58   in these virtual realities. And why is this guy wearing a shirt with all these hearts?

00:19:06   Because he loves us. So the first one, screenshot one, is looking at the connected page and

00:19:12   And then, it's our Twitter pages.

00:19:16   The person is wearing hearts.

00:19:17   I think that's really sweet.

00:19:19   Can you walk around while you're looking at show notes?

00:19:21   I think you can.

00:19:22   I didn't try to use the product because I didn't want to make my computer explode.

00:19:27   But it looks so bad though.

00:19:29   It's really weird.

00:19:32   Can you jump in the car and drive against the show notes?

00:19:38   Self-driving show notes is big at CES this year.

00:19:41   Wow.

00:19:42   It's a thing, so that happened.

00:19:44   - Well, it looks like it, yeah.

00:19:47   - Yeah.

00:19:48   - Oh my God.

00:19:49   - I like the retro interface of this browser.

00:19:54   - Like there's some parts of it, like screenshot three,

00:19:57   I don't even understand what's going on.

00:20:00   Like what is that?

00:20:02   - What is the destination button?

00:20:03   What does it do?

00:20:04   There's a subway button?

00:20:06   - I don't know, it's very strange.

00:20:09   - Can you take Korea into the subway?

00:20:11   You can take an airport shuttle and go visit Analogue on the next page.

00:20:15   There should have been a tube button just for Myke.

00:20:19   Just for Myke. Yeah.

00:20:23   So the last piece of follow-up from Aaron on

00:20:27   Twitter. I'm going to mess up Aaron's last name so I'm just going to check it out and skip it.

00:20:31   Of Relay FM loaded up in

00:20:35   Pixel Fari, which is Nevin Muren's

00:20:39   browser that is basically real 8-bit so it's like a safari. I remember this.

00:20:45   yeah I totally forgot about it but it's super cool and it basically makes

00:20:49   everything look like you know

00:20:50   nevin's games are an 8-bit so you have space age and the incident so it's kind

00:20:55   of that sort of look

00:20:57   I think it looks pretty cool and of course it loads relatively well

00:21:01   there's a few issues in the navigation but overall works pretty well

00:21:04   I think it's great. yeah I like this this is cool

00:21:08   So that's the follow up this week.

00:21:12   Well then it's probably about time for a sponsor.

00:21:16   That sounds good to me.

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00:23:11   Did you like the code Federico? Yeah it was really really really great.

00:23:15   Hover is on board with our movie. Well everybody is. Oh I mean yeah obviously.

00:23:21   We already received funding from a big Hollywood studio. Oh yeah I didn't know about this.

00:23:26   I did! I didn't tell you guys. Oh you did you got it all right yeah yeah as long as

00:23:31   As long as someone has it. Yeah, it was like one of those scenes from the from

00:23:36   Entourage, the the TV show. Never seen it. It's really great. Me neither.

00:23:41   Is that like Star Wars? Oh, come on! You don't get my pop culture references. That's a problem.

00:23:47   I'm sorry. Wait, what show am I on now? Yeah, I'm sorry to be the... Alright, so we

00:23:54   have some real-time follow-up from a friend of the show Doug Beal who's in

00:23:59   the chat room Doug Beale threw up connected on Emacs 24.4.1

00:24:06   I don't know what that means

00:24:07   and it's very exciting to see our site in black and white and aqua so that's also in

00:24:15   the show notes now so that is now

00:24:16   Why is the logo so big?

00:24:19   Because it we scale it down on this oh I can't the file we use is much bigger than how it

00:24:25   is shown on the website because of programming.

00:24:31   Anyways, topic zero, guys.

00:24:35   We're going to talk about Hackintoshes.

00:24:37   Wow.

00:24:37   Amazing.

00:24:38   OK, topic zero is--

00:24:39   What year is this?

00:24:41   We've got like, Emacs and Pixel Fari and Hackintoshes.

00:24:45   Like, this is 2015, guys.

00:24:46   Come on.

00:24:47   No, it's definitely 2006.

00:24:50   So this came up because listener Brian,

00:24:52   who exchanged some emails with me this week,

00:24:54   kind of asked our thoughts on it.

00:24:55   And I thought it was an interesting topic

00:24:57   and I too thought it was dead.

00:24:59   And then I looked around a little bit

00:25:00   and turns out, trademark,

00:25:03   that Hackintoshes are totally still a thing.

00:25:06   Just this week we had sort of serendipity.

00:25:11   I did not make this happen.

00:25:13   But our sweet setup interview this week

00:25:16   with Sebastian Green, dude runs a Hackintosh.

00:25:20   Like it's inside a Power Mac G5 case

00:25:23   which is like big bonus points for me.

00:25:26   But he runs a Hackintosh.

00:25:29   Friend of a friend of mine in real life,

00:25:33   Thomas Newton who writes Egg Freckles runs a Hackintosh.

00:25:36   And Lifehacker of all sites keeps an updated guide

00:25:40   on building a Hackintosh.

00:25:42   Like people still do this.

00:25:44   I don't know why, which is what I wanna talk about.

00:25:46   - It sounds like you're looking for validation.

00:25:50   - Oh, yeah.

00:25:52   I'm not building a Hackintosh.

00:25:54   Well, not yet.

00:25:55   I have no interest.

00:25:58   That's what all this is about, all this time.

00:26:00   He's been collecting all these old Macintoshes.

00:26:02   Look at all these people doing Hackintoshes.

00:26:05   Great guys, huh?

00:26:06   Huh, it's great guys, yeah?

00:26:08   And he's just winking.

00:26:09   Yeah, Hackintoshes, right?

00:26:11   What do you think?

00:26:12   We don't approve.

00:26:15   I'm not doing it.

00:26:16   But there are a bunch of links in the show notes

00:26:18   that if you want to do it, you could do it.

00:26:23   I just don't, I don't understand,

00:26:27   like I totally get the idea of like tinkering

00:26:30   and like I want to build something myself

00:26:32   and like there are definitely,

00:26:34   like I understand that completely

00:26:38   and I think there's advantages to like knowing

00:26:40   your own hardware like on a philosophical level

00:26:42   but it seems like such a giant pile of trouble.

00:26:46   I don't understand, this comes from somebody

00:26:48   who I have done this in the past.

00:26:49   I did it with, I didn't build one,

00:26:51   but I had back in 2009, first the HP Mini 1000

00:26:56   and then the Dell Mini 9 running OS X.

00:26:58   The Dell Mini 9 was like perfectly built to run OS X.

00:27:01   It ran leopard like out of the box just about.

00:27:05   So I've done this and I know firsthand

00:27:06   that at least in 2009 it was a major pain.

00:27:09   Any update you had to like repatch or like change something

00:27:12   and maybe it's better now, but it definitely seems

00:27:16   like a lot of work when Mac hardware is not that expensive these days like the

00:27:20   prices have really come down you can get something really powerful for really not

00:27:24   that much money so I just don't I don't understand why this is still a thing

00:27:29   can I just go back on something a moment please did you say knowing your hardware

00:27:34   on a philosophical level I did say that yeah he did yes okay I think I just

00:27:44   I don't have to defend myself for the two of you.

00:27:47   No, you don't.

00:27:48   I don't know what that means.

00:27:49   Let me defend Steven.

00:27:50   I have to say that even if I want to make fun of his ideas on occasion, I do respect

00:27:59   the challenge of a Hackintosh on a technological level.

00:28:02   I think it's pretty cool knowing all the different components and how you can make OS X run on

00:28:10   a hardware it's not supposed to.

00:28:12   Like it's not something that I ever ever do myself, but I understand why some people want

00:28:18   and I also think that in some countries where Apple prices get like a crazy crazy high for

00:28:27   some reason, whether it's taxes or like other fiscal things that I don't understand, I think

00:28:35   it makes sense to make a Hackintosh.

00:28:37   So I would never do one myself, but I understand and I think I respect the idea.

00:28:46   I think it's pretty cool.

00:28:47   I wouldn't say a philosophical connection to my hardware, but overall I think it is

00:28:53   cool.

00:28:54   Do you feel like you philosophically connect to your iPad Air 2?

00:28:58   Oh yeah, totally.

00:28:59   Yeah, I understand.

00:29:02   What if you could hackintosh and run iOS?

00:29:04   "Oh, that'd be weird."

00:29:07   You know?

00:29:09   Yeah, and your price point competition is a good one, the one that I didn't think about

00:29:14   because I'm a silly American.

00:29:16   I don't know.

00:29:18   I just thought it was interesting because I looked into it and people are still doing

00:29:21   it a lot.

00:29:22   And so I thought it was just interesting to bring up.

00:29:27   I really am not going to do one.

00:29:29   Okay.

00:29:30   Talking about weird Mac hardware.

00:29:37   We should get into this.

00:29:40   Tell us, Myke.

00:29:41   Along with some other scoops last night, Scoop Machine, Mark Gurman, at 9to5Mac, posted a

00:29:50   surprising piece about a completely new MacBook Air at the 12 inch screen size, completely

00:30:00   rethought in the way it's designed with a bunch of different changes like keyboard spacing,

00:30:07   using speaker grill fans and a trackpad with no clicking area and just like no I/O of any

00:30:16   kind really just like two holes in the side loads of really interesting and

00:30:22   very surprising changes to push the MacBook Air further down its you know

00:30:29   down its road it's like eventual road of becoming this incredibly thin

00:30:33   incredibly light like incredibly incredibly thin piece of hardware so we

00:30:39   should talk about it yeah can I can I can I put forward my crazy theory first

00:30:45   Yeah.

00:30:46   Please.

00:30:47   Is it possible that this is a Mac that runs on ARM chip?

00:30:51   Oh.

00:30:53   Yeah.

00:30:54   I saw some people tweeting about that.

00:30:57   I think that's definitely a possibility, especially...

00:31:00   This is another chapter in a long-running rumor, and for a while, those rumors included

00:31:05   it would be fanless.

00:31:06   Now, you can run...

00:31:08   There's Intel Ultrabooks, and they run without fans, but I think the ARM thing is definitely

00:31:13   a possibility here.

00:31:17   And I think that is part of a lot of other questions that I have.

00:31:23   I have nothing but questions about this machine at this point.

00:31:26   You know, it would kind of make sense in a way, because it's doing a bunch of other weird

00:31:30   things.

00:31:32   So it may as well be so radically different, you know?

00:31:36   Like I don't know, the Retina MacBook Pro did a bunch of really weird stuff because

00:31:43   it was so different and the same was like the original MacBook Air as well

00:31:46   like there were some fundamental changes and I guess the fundamental change here

00:31:50   would be runs on ARM and doesn't have any ports except one USB port right?

00:31:56   They're like fundamentally different and they priced them in such a way to like

00:32:00   scare most people off but you know pricing is a whole other thing but go

00:32:05   on Steven let's start looking at some of your questions.

00:32:08   Okay so let's

00:32:09   start with the the port issue so according to this rumor it's gonna have

00:32:13   headphone port on one side and a USB C which if you're not familiar you should

00:32:16   look at this link USB C is actually really similar to a lightning connector

00:32:21   it's reversible it's really small and according to these images it's the only

00:32:26   port on the machine now I didn't even think about it until Chuck's go down

00:32:30   Twitter earlier or just a little while ago was like Apple watch has magnetic

00:32:34   charging why wouldn't this have some sort of like snap-on magnetic charger so

00:32:38   like maybe that would be good like I don't want to have to unplug something

00:32:43   to charge my computer but one port even if like charging isn't through that port

00:32:50   which USB C could could charge a machine like this really pushes this into iOS

00:32:56   territory in the I/O you know like an iPad has one connector and a headphone

00:33:05   jack. Do you know I hadn't really thought of that? That hadn't crossed my mind

00:33:08   mind. The Apple watch angle? No, not that it's... That it's an iPad? It's what an

00:33:14   iPad has, like it's... you don't plug anything into it, like you just don't do that.

00:33:19   Yeah it's um... Do you reckon that, I mean this is another thought that I'm just

00:33:24   having randomly, do you reckon that like the charger would have I/O? So the again

00:33:30   think looking at the iPad, the iPad has a HDMI like adapter so you can instead of

00:33:37   AirPlay you can plug HDMI right into the iPad and that adapter has a lightning

00:33:42   it had a 30 pin now has a lightning connector on it so you can charge and

00:33:45   get power in and HDMI out at the same time and it definitely leads to

00:33:50   questions of dongles or docks or what if this thing only has one port you know

00:33:56   even on a MacBook Air but especially on a MacBook Air but even on a MacBook Pro

00:34:00   like my bag is full of dongles I have Ethernet, 5Y800, you know VGA,

00:34:06   DVI, like all these things because I'm out and about and my MacBook Pro

00:34:11   basically just has USB and Thunderbolt and HDMI but even then I'm adapting all

00:34:19   the time so to a degree I think Mac users are used to this but the the

00:34:23   alternative is and I wrote it in all capital letters in my show notes of OMG

00:34:27   PowerBook Duo like what if what if this thing does come with a dock of some sort

00:34:31   that you can put in your bag and it has all these ports I don't think Apple's

00:34:35   gonna do that. I think it's like the worst idea ever if they do. Like I need to

00:34:40   I need to I need to hear Apple's... if this is true I need to hear the marketing

00:34:45   because like one port is is crazy making. Like for example for me like I have my

00:34:55   my keyboard that I use because I use this the Microsoft keyboard with the

00:35:00   hole in the middle that I can't remember the name of now. I have to plug a little

00:35:04   USB dongle in for it to work. I don't know why. I don't know why they can't use Bluetooth like everybody else

00:35:11   but you have to use this little dongle. So I wouldn't even be able to use my

00:35:14   keyboard if I want to charge, right? So that's... let alone like maybe I want to

00:35:20   plug in my iPhone, maybe I want to plug in anything like a hard drive. The idea

00:35:25   that I would then have to take like a dock in my bag kind of undoes the idea

00:35:31   of portability. Laptops are portable. I totally agree. So having to carry around

00:35:35   more so I can use my portable machine, the whole point, all you're

00:35:40   doing is taking the weight that you're taking out of the machine and

00:35:43   adding it into something you have to carry with you anyway. So what's the

00:35:47   point? I get that if you're on a plane it might be fine and it makes it

00:35:51   awesome for that and you plug it in but I don't think that, I think that's too

00:35:56   narrow in the thinking. A laptop you take to the coffee shop

00:36:00   or you take downstairs or you know it's just the idea is you move it around and

00:36:04   if I have to carry around a bunch of cables and dock with me just so I can

00:36:08   have two USB ports that I can use whilst I'm charging I don't know if that's if I

00:36:14   would want that like I can't see why I would want that yeah and and maybe the

00:36:19   marketing angle is hey this thing gets crazy if it's on arm maybe this thing

00:36:22   gets like all day battery life or two day battery life yeah something insane

00:36:26   and so Apple's argument is you don't need it I mean if you need to like sync

00:36:29   your phone lol you don't need to do that anymore if Stephen is the sink his iPod

00:36:34   classic you can do that but you know he doesn't need to really like carry a

00:36:39   charger around around with him but that I agree with you Myke is sort of thin

00:36:45   reasoning and it inevitably like these machines if this is true like people

00:36:52   gonna be carrying around a lot of extra stuff potentially and I don't know if

00:36:55   Apple like wants people to do that or not. But like then I think I think this

00:37:01   is like our version of the removal of the zip drive or like the removal of the floppy drive.

00:37:06   Powering USB at the same time is important for like a lot of things.

00:37:13   Yeah but it's you know it's that idea that like if you know the idea being if

00:37:18   you think about previous times is Apple has a vision for where they want to take

00:37:22   machines but first they have to have the first one and then from that they change

00:37:27   the way that we use our computers right there if you think about it in those

00:37:30   terms like if you look at look use hindsight right this might be that one

00:37:36   so we look at it as being crazy and I'm like setting my hair on fire and running

00:37:40   around my room because I see them having one USB port but it's just the same as

00:37:46   everything else that they've ever done but you know it but it's hard to see

00:37:50   right now but you know I hope that they're not I mean yeah I hope they're

00:37:55   not just hobbling the machine because they want to make it really thin really

00:37:58   light you could put two on this you could put two you could put two right

00:38:02   there could be two. I would imagine that if this is real there's got to be two.

00:38:10   The ports just don't sit don't sit right with me there's nothing I can't

00:38:13   think of a single advantage except thinness and lightness but if you

00:38:17   already have the bus and everything one more port is not shouldn't be a big deal.

00:38:20   What's also interesting about this machine I think is the size so not

00:38:26   the thin necessarily but the fact that it's a 12 inch model that that raises a

00:38:31   lot of questions. You know Apple sells an 11.6 inch MacBook Air. I just bought one

00:38:36   for my wife last month and I will say compared that machine compared to this

00:38:40   mythical MacBook Air the new one looks so much better like the 11 inch MacBook

00:38:45   doesn't look good. No, it's ugly. The bezel is humongous and it's like 16 the ratio of the

00:38:53   screen is weird so it's really short and really wide. But I tell you what I like

00:38:58   about this though this is a 12 inch laptop like 12 inch screen laptop that's

00:39:03   smaller than the 11. Does his thing say that? Yeah the physical size is a quarter

00:39:11   of a quarter or three quarters of an inch smaller than the 11 inch. Yeah and

00:39:16   and they're doing some things that harken back to the 12 inch powerbook

00:39:20   with like the full width keyboard is definitely something that was on the 12 inch

00:39:25   powerbook. Like a lot of things about this machine are really interesting to

00:39:29   me but going back to the size thing so is Apple going to sell a 11 inch MacBook

00:39:36   a 12 inch like MacBook Air 2 and then a 13 inch MacBook Air like I don't know

00:39:44   where this fits in line with the rest of the products and my my thought is and we

00:39:50   can surely argue about it that if this has retina which Gherman doesn't say if

00:39:55   it does or not but if it does I think this sits in between the current MacBook

00:39:59   Airs and the MacBook Pro so you have the non retina 11 and 13 maybe their names

00:40:05   change to just MacBook again, you have this machine in the middle, if it's Retina, and

00:40:10   then you have the Pros.

00:40:12   That makes sense to me with the current landscape.

00:40:15   Can I ask you guys a question?

00:40:19   Yes, sir.

00:40:20   Because I really don't understand.

00:40:24   What's with the obsession of making laptops thinner?

00:40:28   Because I mean, I cannot get it on a phone.

00:40:31   I kinda understand it there because a phone is something that you hold in your hands all

00:40:37   the time and therefore having a more comfortable physical size really helps.

00:40:43   And I understand the argument for lightness in a laptop because you're carrying a laptop

00:40:48   all the time so it's important to make it light.

00:40:52   But the crazy obsession with thinness at the expense, possibly because this is a rumor

00:40:59   So we're speculating here.

00:41:01   But at the expense of battery space, of I/O,

00:41:08   all these other compromises in this rumor,

00:41:10   is it really worth it?

00:41:13   Because just one port for the power adapter

00:41:18   sounds crazy to me, like totally crazy,

00:41:21   on a completely different planet than removing

00:41:24   DVD and you know, the other stuff that Apple does.

00:41:28   But making it like so thin that, I mean, I have a 2011 MacBook Air and

00:41:36   I still think it is crazy thin.

00:41:38   Am I wishing desperately for a thinner MacBook Air?

00:41:43   No, but also I should note that I don't use my MacBook Air that much.

00:41:47   But still, I mean, is it really necessary to compromise everything

00:41:53   that a Mac is great for, so having ports, having more battery life than a phone or an

00:42:00   iPad, is it really worth it just to be crazy thinner?

00:42:03   Because it looks to me like a demonstration of finesse, of look how awesome we can make

00:42:10   our MacBooks so thin and light, but do people really want that crazy thinness?

00:42:15   I mean I agree with you Federico, and it's the same argument we had with the iPhone 6,

00:42:19   Like if they get the thickness the same as before, like what does that mean battery life

00:42:26   wise?

00:42:27   I see it more, like it makes more sense to me on a mobile device.

00:42:33   But a 12 inch laptop you can carry really in just about any bag, you can carry it very

00:42:40   easily with you.

00:42:41   And if Apple is trying to make a super portable Mac, weight is a huge factor there.

00:42:46   I moved recently from a MacBook Air to a MacBook Pro both in the 13 inch

00:42:52   Class but the pro is heavier and the pro is thicker and I do notice that in my bag

00:42:57   And so if this is all about portability

00:43:00   And they can still get good battery life

00:43:02   Like there's no way this thing gets worse battery life than the current MacBook Air. Apple very rarely moves backwards in terms of battery life

00:43:09   So clearly they've been able to figure it out. And again, maybe that's ARM. Maybe that's that maybe it's not retina

00:43:14   maybe it is. There's still too many unknowns, but I do think that the

00:43:21   battery life, I just don't see them moving backwards on that at this point.

00:43:24   I think the thickness argument, like if you're gonna make it

00:43:29   lighter you're taking stuff out or you're making components smaller so you

00:43:32   end up with more space so you may as well make the case thinner, right? In

00:43:36   theory. But also like it is the traveling thing as Stephen said, you put it in a

00:43:41   bag right and it takes less space in your bag but also like a super thin

00:43:46   computer is a real marvel. I remember like the original MacBook Air

00:43:53   right it was like what is this thing and people buy it for that you know because

00:43:59   you pick it up in the store and it's like this is like thinner than a book

00:44:02   this is crazy this is a computer and it's a good marketing tool. It's the same

00:44:06   reason they make the phones thin like because they keep making them

00:44:10   thinner because it looks good on the posters and you know because you can get

00:44:14   the ginga it's hiding behind a pencil what what you know it's like it looks

00:44:20   good. A laser cut pencil. It's sellable right it's sellable. It is and the the original

00:44:25   Mappo Gare is of course a really good way to think about this this computer

00:44:30   you know I we talked about it last week or a couple weeks ago in our Q&A that you

00:44:34   know I had one for a short period and they got rid of it because the the

00:44:38   performance was so bad and on the original MacBook Air that had everything

00:44:41   to do with like they used an iPod hard drive and turns out running OS X on an

00:44:45   iPod hard drive is miserable. But you know I remember when they I remember the

00:44:50   keynote that they announced the MacBook Air in a little flip down door and it

00:44:55   had micro DVI it's the only Apple laptop to ever ship with micro DVI so again in

00:45:00   the world of adapters like if you own a first-gen MacBook Air you have this

00:45:03   adapter you can ever use and I remember thinking like oh my god they have one

00:45:07   USB port like what are you thinking and of course they rectified that later on

00:45:11   but the world like the world dealt with the MacBook Air and a lot of people

00:45:17   really like this that first-gen machine and like what I think this will be that

00:45:22   first-gen machine came with a hefty price you know now the MacBook Air is the

00:45:26   base machine it's the bottom of the tier it's the cheap one but that was not the

00:45:30   not the case when the original MacBook Air came out I don't remember how much

00:45:33   it was but it was significantly more than a MacBook and so maybe maybe this

00:45:37   machine is following that trajectory that yeah like there's trade-offs here

00:45:40   but you're making those trade-offs to make your bag light and to keep a

00:45:43   computer thin and if that interests you and we don't have the performance

00:45:49   problems of yesteryear because we're on SSD and and even you know we've we've

00:45:53   made great strides and heat consumption and all these things then maybe this

00:45:58   machine is like the fulfilled promise that the original MacBook Air couldn't

00:46:01   deliver on. So to go back to the pricing discussion the question that you asked a

00:46:06   ago, like where does this sit in the line? I think that this device, no

00:46:10   matter whether it's cheaper or more expensive, will sit outside of the

00:46:15   MacBook Air line in the same way that the Retina MacBook Pros sat outside of the

00:46:19   MacBook Pro line. You know, it was like you went to the store and it was like

00:46:22   MacBook Air, or like, so MacBook Pro, it'd be like MacBook Pro Retina display. I

00:46:27   think it'd be like that. You've got MacBook Air and then MacBook Air with X or 12

00:46:31   inch MacBook Air, you know? And the Retina displays were more, like those

00:46:35   Those machines were more, they sat above the line, and then slowly, I don't think, I don't

00:46:39   know, I don't think you can buy a non-random APU perot anymore, I think they're all gone,

00:46:44   but slowly took over, and I think you're right, I think that probably makes a lot of sense,

00:46:48   Myke.

00:46:49   I think this will be more expensive, by the way.

00:46:51   So can I ask you another question?

00:46:54   Because I'm, like, you guys know that I'm not so into Macs lately, but this is fascinating

00:47:00   to me.

00:47:03   Can we, if this rumor is true, that's always the basic introduction here, if this is true,

00:47:11   can we extract some theories about the future of OS X from this type of MacBook?

00:47:20   And I thought of two.

00:47:23   One is that without many USB ports, I think people will rely even more on AirDrop and

00:47:33   other Bluetooth and Wi-Fi transfer solutions for files, especially now that it's supported

00:47:40   on iOS and OS X.

00:47:42   They can exchange files between the two of them.

00:47:45   And the second one is that with a large trackpad, multi-touch gestures are still going to be

00:47:51   a thing on OS X. Is there anything else that we can assume about this? Because, I mean,

00:47:58   a MacBook, it's cool, it's great, I mean, it's thin, and it's got this new keyboard,

00:48:03   okay, well, whatever, right? I mean, it'll be amazing hardware, but how does it affect

00:48:09   the software if this is true?

00:48:11   Well, I think there's even some going the other way that we've all said, everyone has

00:48:16   said Yosemite looks better on a red display but they sell a boat ton of MacBook Airs and

00:48:22   so I think this can address I think the software may points to this even in that way and we

00:48:27   should say before we move on that you totally can buy a 13 inch MacBook Pro with no display

00:48:32   still it's it's still on sale today which seems silly but it's 1100 bucks so spend the

00:48:38   extra hundred dollars and go right now I guess but um yeah I think I think it's really interesting

00:48:43   think about Federico and I think airdrop is definitely a big part of that again

00:48:50   with the original Macbook Air.

00:48:53   When it works.

00:48:54   Yeah well there is that.

00:48:57   On the original MacBook Air in that keynote there's a slide that has a

00:49:03   picture of an optical disc and just one word "Y" over the top of it and it in

00:49:09   that keynote as well Apple talked about streaming and that you could read

00:49:13   download purchases from the iTunes store and they built the case that optical

00:49:16   media is dead. This is the first computer we're shipping without an optical drive

00:49:19   and you don't need it because we have all these other things and I think this

00:49:25   machine can follow in those footsteps and say you know what your iOS devices

00:49:29   already don't need to sync with iTunes anymore. If you need to move files sure

00:49:34   if you need gigabit Ethernet here's an adapter but if you don't need it you

00:49:37   just need AirDrop or peer-to-peer wireless it's already built in so you

00:49:43   don't you don't need all the stuff that nerds want to hold on to. Okay how about

00:49:46   this if you can allow me to interrupt you Steven. Now that we have iCloud Drive

00:49:53   and now that we have iCloud integration in mail you need fewer ways to exchange

00:49:59   files with other people physically and we're gonna make iCloud Drive more like

00:50:03   Dropbox and you can easily store files in iCloud Drive and share them with

00:50:07   people with a simple link instead of putting them on a USB dongle and giving the USB dongle

00:50:12   to somebody else.

00:50:14   So can we, I think it's, I mean, I'm not sure, I think it would be crazy, but if the rumor

00:50:20   is true and if Apple is crazy enough to really do this, I think that it's not too crazy on

00:50:28   our end to assume that they're going to do some sort of new file store exchanging features,

00:50:35   whatever.

00:50:36   think removing the physical components means... because people are not gonna stop sharing files,

00:50:45   of course, if you take away... when you took away the DVD and the CD drive from people, they didn't

00:50:52   stop using files, they just moved the files from the CD and the DVD to the USB. If you take USB

00:50:59   away from people, those files are gonna be used anyway, just in different ways. So does this mean

00:51:05   Does it mean that Apple is going to rely even more on sorting files in the cloud?

00:51:09   And if that's the case, is the cloud iCloud Drive?

00:51:12   And if that's the case, again, does it mean that iCloud Drive is getting new sharing features?

00:51:17   It did.

00:51:18   It got mail drop in Yosemite that I can email you a file of almost any size and it's using

00:51:23   iCloud Drive in the background to move it.

00:51:25   But you still cannot create a shareable link just to iCloud Drive like you can in Dropbox.

00:51:30   this is what I was saying before about like Apple creating a project that like

00:51:36   pays for the future. So they say like we want to do this, we need this

00:51:41   device to do this, this is the future but it starts here. So that's why I think

00:51:48   it's priced high. Like I don't, you know, there's conjecture over whether

00:51:54   it costs more, costs less, like whether that's why they're doing X, Y, Z. I think

00:51:57   it's priced high because this is not a device for everyone because they are

00:52:01   making some serious like because I think you know they'll be all crazy things they

00:52:05   would do it will run hot right because there's no fans and it's gonna run hot

00:52:09   right and they think that it won't but you'll get weird stuff that happens with

00:52:13   it there's probably some things in there that maybe we don't even know about yet

00:52:17   which are like super weird maybe the battery isn't any better than the Mac

00:52:20   book yeah I mean like maybe it's just like well we're doing this now and then

00:52:23   over the time it will get better and better or like you know it would turn

00:52:26   out like and it runs on ARM and by the way you know everyone needs to recompile

00:52:31   their apps it's like you know you don't know what these kind of things are gonna

00:52:34   be like Steven tell me if what I said was completely dumb about the about the

00:52:40   ARM thing you've probably used some verb in a in a you know a strange way but

00:52:46   they will get follow-up all right so let me ask this question because I just

00:52:49   I just thought, now I said it, I'm interested in it.

00:52:52   If Apple use ARM chips,

00:52:57   do people have to recompile their apps

00:52:59   in the same way they did for Intel?

00:53:01   - Though they would need to be some sort of

00:53:03   fat binary system,

00:53:05   like the transition from PowerPC to Intel.

00:53:07   I mean, there will be a transition

00:53:09   because Intel code won't run natively on ARM.

00:53:11   - Right, so that's the other thing, right?

00:53:12   If this is an ARM device,

00:53:14   then it's gonna be the start

00:53:16   of that transition device potentially.

00:53:18   So, I don't know.

00:53:20   I don't know.

00:53:21   But my point is like, this is a,

00:53:24   I see this as like the original MacBook Air,

00:53:26   unlike the first Retina MacBook Pro.

00:53:28   It is a future facing device

00:53:31   that Apple will price accordingly.

00:53:34   - Does the Mac do backups in iCloud like you can on iOS?

00:53:39   - No.

00:53:40   - No.

00:53:41   - So maybe that's another possibility

00:53:42   because if you take away USB,

00:53:44   what about, you know, time machine and,

00:53:47   I don't know, just thinking that, I think Myke is right.

00:53:51   - You can do time machine to like a time capsule,

00:53:53   like wirelessly, like they're not gonna,

00:53:56   I can't ever see a world where Apple allows you

00:53:59   to backup 256 gigs of storage to the cloud.

00:54:03   - Yeah.

00:54:04   - It's never gonna happen, it's just too much.

00:54:06   - Oh, never say never, never say never.

00:54:09   - It's never gonna happen.

00:54:11   The reason I say that is because there is never a world

00:54:14   in which that becomes affordable,

00:54:15   because as Apple get the ability to store more and more,

00:54:19   hard drives just get bigger, or SSDs just get bigger.

00:54:22   So they move along together.

00:54:25   That's my theory on that anyway.

00:54:26   Yeah, but I think the idea of iCloud backup on iOS and the Mac

00:54:34   is just fundamentally different.

00:54:35   I mean, you can restore from iCloud on iOS,

00:54:38   but it's definitely not the same as a time machine backup

00:54:42   where you have history and versioning and all

00:54:45   these other things. I don't know, I don't like Tinder agreed that I don't think

00:54:49   Apple's gonna do that even if they did I don't think I would use it but um yeah

00:54:54   there's lots of questions but I think overall I think we're in agreement that

00:54:57   this this machine if it's real if this is what it is it's definitely going to

00:55:01   move the bar you know move things forward in the notebook space in a big

00:55:06   way. So what do we think is this is this happening like does this seem does this

00:55:14   seem feasible I think yeah I think it does do we want to talk about the timing

00:55:21   at all no I mean I just did you see the post that we had on Mac stories today I

00:55:27   did I did and I linked to it but there was a bunch of arguing about that on

00:55:32   Twitter and I don't think Apple leaks things in 9 to 5 Mac on purpose I could

00:55:39   be wrong but I don't see this being Apple PR speaking through Mark Gurman I

00:55:43   I don't see that either, but what I do see is like, there has been no other Apple news

00:55:50   during CES week and that would be breaking a multi-year trend.

00:55:53   So I don't know.

00:55:55   I don't think that they would go to to German, right?

00:55:59   But it is still weird.

00:56:00   Of all people.

00:56:01   Yeah, it is still weird because they haven't done anything else and that is the way Apple

00:56:08   has operated for years.

00:56:09   So I don't know what I think about it.

00:56:11   Alright, should we take a break?

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00:57:51   Alright so it's a new year and lots of people do new things in the new year but Federica

00:57:59   you've got some things in here that you're currently trying.

00:58:02   What's cooking?

00:58:04   So every year, after I recover from the New Year's Eve night, I sit down and it used to

00:58:16   be at my Macbook and now it's at my iPad, but I try to understand whether the software

00:58:22   I'm running is still the best for me.

00:58:25   So I try to use the occasion of a new year to re-evaluate some apps, some services that

00:58:33   that I pay for and I've been doing this for like three or four years now and every year

00:58:39   I discover something new. It's like those people who move furniture around, you know,

00:58:47   just to see if maybe there's a better option. I know my mother is one of those people and

00:58:52   instead of moving furniture, I sign up for new web services. So I saved four, I think,

00:59:03   of these new apps and services that I'm trying.

00:59:05   So if you guys want, I can.

00:59:07   I would like to discuss this with you.

00:59:11   I want to hear it.

00:59:12   OK.

00:59:13   So the first one that I wanted to take a look at,

00:59:17   not just because maybe it will turn into a Mac service

00:59:21   article, but just out of personal curiosity,

00:59:24   was whether Instapaper was still the best read later app for me.

00:59:31   I have a complicated history with read later apps.

00:59:35   I used Instapaper for years.

00:59:39   Two years ago, I switched to Pocket.

00:59:42   Then from Pocket, I switched to Safari Reading List,

00:59:46   but I was missing Instapaper's text features too much.

00:59:49   - Just all features.

00:59:52   Just...

00:59:52   (laughing)

00:59:53   - Yeah, but especially the text presentation

00:59:56   and the friends network.

00:59:58   I don't, like, I know this is gonna sound really bad, like, I don't care about, um,

01:00:06   I'm trying to phrase this in the, in the last, in the least, uh, in the way that it will have

01:00:14   fewer consequences for me. I don't care about, uh...

01:00:21   Just say it, say it.

01:00:22   I'm not a typography expert.

01:00:24   Okay, you don't care about fonts is what you're saying?

01:00:27   No, no, no.

01:00:29   Like, I don't...

01:00:31   What you're saying is...

01:00:32   What he was afraid of, you just did.

01:00:34   [Laughter]

01:00:36   Myke...

01:00:37   Hey buddy!

01:00:39   Okay, I'm not one of those people who spends time adjusting the margins and the font weight, the font size, and I want to have this serif and some serif...

01:00:48   Not because I don't care, because it's like I'm arrogant.

01:00:52   It's just that I don't understand and I don't think my...

01:00:59   like the way that I read requires these settings.

01:01:03   It's like those people who taste wine and when they drink wine they want like the advanced glass

01:01:10   because it's better for the type of wine.

01:01:12   You know, like I don't understand. I just use a normal font.

01:01:16   Anyway, I don't know what "normal" means, it's just the default one usually.

01:01:22   Helvetica.

01:01:24   Yeah, probably. I don't know. No, I use the Serif one, the one with the little details.

01:01:31   So, last year I was missing Instapaper's features too much, I switched back.

01:01:37   In the past few months, after putting together my must-have annual roundup for the apps that I use,

01:01:44   I was wondering whether Instapaper really the best for me because I love the app.

01:01:48   It's just, you know, I think it is my, uh, it is 50% my duty and other 50% my curiosity

01:01:56   to see what Pocket has been doing. So I asked on Twitter, uh, about, you know,

01:02:03   what are you guys using for, uh, read later apps? And I received, I think like 300 replies

01:02:10   and they were fairly evenly split between Instapaper and Pocket, with a few people using

01:02:16   Readability, it appears they are still around, and Pinboard and Safari Reading List and other apps

01:02:23   that I don't know, like there's one called Reading Pack, I think. Anyway, most people were using either

01:02:29   Instapaper or Pocket, so I was surprised actually to see, I thought that people who followed me

01:02:37   would be more inclined to use Instapaper. But half of those people actually use Pocket. So,

01:02:45   I was like, okay, maybe I should try Pocket again. So, I've been trying Pocket. I paid for a premium

01:02:50   account myself because I wanted to get the full experience. You know, when I try all these new

01:02:57   apps, I want to go all in because I want to understand. And I gotta say, I kind of like it.

01:03:07   Like the first week I thought it was a placebo effect, you know, because this is new so it must be better, you know.

01:03:14   Like when you move furniture around again, it always looks better because it's new.

01:03:19   But I've been using this for a couple of weeks now.

01:03:24   Yeah, I'm happy to say.

01:03:25   This never gets old. This is awesome.

01:03:27   So this has been, I think, week two or week three, the beginning of week three maybe.

01:03:32   I think it is pretty good.

01:03:35   good. The text parser is much better than Instapaper. I'm seeing less weirdness in the

01:03:43   way that Pocket parses articles on the web, like it supports captions for images better,

01:03:50   and in general it's got less craft in the text. The way that articles flow in Pocket,

01:04:01   less weird. It's not perfect, but it's less weird than InstaVapor. And I think that the

01:04:08   presentation with images and like Pocket as a grid, like with previews of photos and thumbnails

01:04:15   for videos, I think it looks fantastic. And in general, I know this is going to sound

01:04:24   weird, but it seems that Pocket has been moving from a read-later solution to a more like

01:04:30   a strange mix of "it's both read later" and like a bookmarking service because there's

01:04:38   a this thing called Pocket Premium which I don't see many people talking about but it's

01:04:43   a like it's a basically a permanent storage solution for your Pocket archive. It archives

01:04:52   web pages so you can always... it's like the pinboard... what is it called? Like archival

01:04:59   account. It creates an offline copy of a web page and it also gives you advanced

01:05:06   search options and the ability to automatically assign tags to articles. So

01:05:12   it's basically bookmarking features into pocket and you pay like 50 bucks a year

01:05:17   and you also ensure that you know the usual stuff like you support the

01:05:22   service and you make sure that it's going to be around in the future.

01:05:26   So what I'm doing basically, and this is going to sound so confusing and so like people are

01:05:31   going to be "what?"

01:05:33   I'm using Pocket as both a read-later and bookmarking system.

01:05:38   So you're not using Pinboard?

01:05:40   No.

01:05:41   What?

01:05:42   At least not in the past couple of weeks.

01:05:45   Because I go, I really go into these rabbit holes sometimes and I question everything

01:05:52   about myself. And usually that everything is about software. And I know this is going

01:05:57   to sound unnecessarily epic to people. But I do question, I do question everything because

01:06:07   I want to I want to understand what I do. So yeah, I've been like, you know, you know,

01:06:13   I told you, I told you, you too, my my fellow podcasters, I told you that I use Twitter

01:06:20   faves a lot, like whenever I see a link that I want to read or view in the future, I just

01:06:27   give it a star.

01:06:29   And since I started using Pocket, I actually just send everything to Pocket, so I'm using

01:06:33   the favorite feature just for actual favorites, like tweets that I like or that make me laugh,

01:06:39   it's usually stuff from Kyle and Joe.

01:06:44   I actually used faves for faves and pocket for links and it's both for articles that

01:06:50   I want to read but I actually also saved like tutorials and Python stuff into pocket.

01:06:57   This is interesting, I want to see how it works out for me.

01:07:01   Two things that I don't like, whenever you share an article, it shares the article with

01:07:07   a short link, so I had to put together a workflow to resolve the link and use the original link

01:07:17   of an article because I don't like using the pocket.co short links.

01:07:23   And it doesn't have highlights.

01:07:25   I'm kinda missing highlights from Instapaper.

01:07:28   I wasn't a huge user of highlights, but I do like the idea on principle.

01:07:35   I want to be able to easily highlight text that I like.

01:07:39   So that's not in pocket.

01:07:40   We'll see how it goes.

01:07:42   I'm optimistic because I think it's kind of different.

01:07:46   And I wouldn't be too sad to just move from a dual system of bookmarks and read later

01:07:55   to just one system that sorts everything for me.

01:07:58   Search is also pretty awesome.

01:08:01   But it's too soon.

01:08:02   Yeah, I mean I've looked at Pocket, I looked at it last year for a little while and sort

01:08:07   of what you led with is why I stay with Instapaper.

01:08:10   I just really prefer the reading experience but I think overall both are in really good

01:08:16   shape.

01:08:17   I think BetaWorks is in a really good job with Instapaper and I think Pocket's made

01:08:20   a lot of advancements and so it's good to have competition and I definitely use Instapaper

01:08:28   kind of the way you just talked about using Pocket where it's not just read it later stuff.

01:08:33   Sometimes I use Instapaper, even though I have a Pinboard account, just to stash something

01:08:36   away or like, "Hey, I'm going to link to this this afternoon and just stick it in Instapaper,"

01:08:41   which isn't great and leads to some noise in there, but the key is what works for you.

01:08:49   I miss the Instapaper friends section a lot.

01:08:54   I really like to see what like what Steven or Marco or Myke, I don't think you share

01:09:00   stuff on Instapaper because you don't read.

01:09:03   So I do.

01:09:04   I like to see what Steven does.

01:09:05   It handles videos just fine.

01:09:06   I just saved, I mean all the videos are on YouTube anyway, so I just use the YouTube

01:09:11   watch later function.

01:09:12   Yeah, yeah, sure, sure.

01:09:14   We don't believe you, Myke, but anyway.

01:09:16   So what else is getting turned inside out for you, Federico?

01:09:19   So I have an RSS problem and I realize it's an issue.

01:09:27   I keep switching between RSS clients, probably because I have too much free time on my hands

01:09:34   sometimes, but also because I do it for the greater cause.

01:09:40   That's my excuse for everything.

01:09:44   So I'm looking for an RSS reader that allows me to see articles inside the folder, sorting

01:09:54   them by popularity instead of date or name.

01:10:00   And I don't think this exists.

01:10:02   I know that Feedly does that to an extent when you go to the website.

01:10:08   I think there's a popular filter on the homepage.

01:10:12   And I, but I don't think that any other service has a popularity filter.

01:10:18   So for context, I switched from Frit Wrangler to Fiddly last year, last summer, because,

01:10:26   you know, for the same reason, it's just instead of switching in January, I switched in June

01:10:32   to get a better, a better understanding of what other people are using.

01:10:38   I think it is a common geek mistake to get too entrenched in a single idea or belief.

01:10:46   So I switched to Fiddly to see what was up with that.

01:10:50   Also because two years ago I bought a lifetime Fiddly Pro subscription.

01:10:55   Yeah, yeah, I know.

01:10:57   It was like one of 5,000.

01:10:59   So I think I got a pretty good deal because it was limited.

01:11:03   But now you're forced to use it.

01:11:05   No, it's not that I'm forced.

01:11:07   I have a...

01:11:10   Let's say that maybe when I use it I don't feel bad, you know, because hey, I'm actually

01:11:15   using this.

01:11:17   So I switched to Feed

01:11:28   my own here. We still haven't spoke about that cop.

01:11:35   Yeah that's gonna be a whole episode. News readers.

01:11:39   Yes, last year I switched from Rangler to Feedly and I used Feedly first with Reader,

01:11:46   then I switched to Newsyfy, which is a fantastic RSS reader for iOS. And I especially like

01:11:51   then Newsyfy is fast and it lets you customize the way that you share articles.

01:11:58   You can assign a single tap and hold on the article list to bring up the system share

01:12:04   sheet so you can send articles to extensions, which is nice.

01:12:09   And the app is clean, polished, it's got a premium business model, which I think is really

01:12:16   smart considering the modern app store.

01:12:20   But now, I use Twitter lists a lot, and I use Nuzzle to catch up on Twitter and articles

01:12:29   that people share when I'm away.

01:12:31   But now I'm wondering, okay, so RSS is my file system for news.

01:12:37   And I want to be able to open RSS, depending on the time that I have, I want to see either

01:12:45   all articles from newest to oldest because that's just how I work. I know Steven that

01:12:53   upsets you because it should be from oldest to newest. You were going to say that, right?

01:12:59   No. I have stuff set newest to oldest.

01:13:06   Oh yeah? I must be confused. I think that sometimes you used to say that. Anyway.

01:13:14   Depending on the time that I have, I want to be able to look at articles, either all

01:13:27   of them or just the popular ones.

01:13:30   And yesterday I asked on Twitter, is there a way to sort tweets in a Twitter list by

01:13:37   popularity based on retweets and faves?

01:13:40   And it doesn't seem that there's a way to do that, but that would be pretty smart, you

01:13:43   know?

01:13:44   And I think the problem is that Twitter doesn't care about lists or the list API.

01:13:50   So my idea was, okay, maybe there's an RSS reader that does this.

01:13:56   So I was like, okay, I'm using Feedly.

01:13:59   Is there a way to do this in Feedly?

01:14:01   I couldn't find a way to sort articles on popularity, whether it's how many people are

01:14:06   reading these articles or maybe are sharing this article.

01:14:09   So basically, I signed up in this, I had this realization.

01:14:16   It was like when you're in the desert and you see water.

01:14:21   And I signed up for NewsBlur.

01:14:23   Oh no.

01:14:26   So this is an entirely different RSS service.

01:14:30   What?

01:14:31   Did you sign up for a lifetime account by any chance?

01:14:34   No, no, no.

01:14:35   No, but yeah, it was really cute.

01:14:38   there's this single guy making this service and there's a picture of his dog

01:14:41   and it's like if you pay for the service you're gonna feed my dog for 12 days and

01:14:46   I thought that was really cute and funny so I signed up...

01:14:49   That sounds terrible though. Only 12 days!

01:14:52   Yeah but there's 7,000 people using the pro service.

01:14:56   Oh well then you only need to feed the dog, the dog's fed.

01:14:59   So how many days is the dog gonna live if you do 7,000 for 12?

01:15:03   Do you pay a year? What do you pay?

01:15:05   You pay a year.

01:15:06   Yeah, well that's more than...

01:15:08   80,000 days!

01:15:10   80,000 days!

01:15:12   Yeah, see...

01:15:13   That's 230 years!

01:15:14   This dog is gonna live a lot with our food.

01:15:17   Yeah, this dog's fine, man!

01:15:19   Yes, she's fine!

01:15:21   But anyway, the picture was really...

01:15:23   The photo was really cute!

01:15:27   It's all it takes to put a picture of your dog and Federica will buy your service.

01:15:31   True story!

01:15:33   There was also a problem for me with plaques.

01:15:35   Every time they have an update, they share, like in the blog post, on the company blog,

01:15:42   every time there's a new feature, they use a photo of the dog, like Berkeley, the Plex dog.

01:15:49   And every time I see the Plex blog posts, I want to try out the new features just to feel a connection.

01:15:57   Anyway, I'm just weird with dogs.

01:16:01   So there was a picture of a dog and I signed that for NewsBlur, also because there's a real reason, not just a cutesy one.

01:16:08   Basically

01:16:11   NewsBlur lets you... so it's ugly, okay?

01:16:14   It doesn't look really

01:16:17   pleasant. It looks like a Windows file system, slightly polished up.

01:16:26   It's kind of weird really looks like a dashboard for links. I don't know

01:16:32   It lets you train the service

01:16:36   to

01:16:38   specific

01:16:40   keywords or

01:16:42   titles or authors in

01:16:44   RSS

01:16:46   items

01:16:47   So if you say, okay

01:16:49   I want to see more of this topic or I want to see more of this author or I want to see less from this

01:16:56   specific source. If you train the service with time, there's a focus mode in the

01:17:02   app. So you can view RSS articles, there's three sections, ALL which shows

01:17:08   you all articles, UNREAD which shows you new stuff and FOCUS which shows you the

01:17:13   important stuff. So my idea was, okay, if I train this service enough, maybe one

01:17:19   day I will be able to to open the app and go to the focus mode and I will see

01:17:23   all the important stuff. But then again, if I train this service, it is not

01:17:29   going to be about popularity. It is going to be about the stuff that I instruct

01:17:34   the service to look for. So it's not strictly about the number of shares and

01:17:39   the number of hits that an article gets. It's just about keywords and

01:17:43   stuff. So we'll see. I don't know because NewsBlur also has comments, which is kind

01:17:49   weird you can comment in an RSS reader because it's kind of like a social

01:17:53   platform you can follow people there. Search is like it's crazy fast. I

01:18:00   was able to find RSS articles from 2011 in two seconds. It goes way way back in

01:18:06   years. I don't know how to do it. I guess that when you give it a subscription it

01:18:12   tries to load as many articles in the past as possible. That's kind of cool.

01:18:15   silly, it does look pretty terrible.

01:18:17   Yeah, I checked it out right after Google Reader died.

01:18:21   I looked at a lot of services, and it's definitely not real pretty on the eyes.

01:18:27   But if you use it with a third-party app, I guess you're sort of shielding yourself from that a little bit.

01:18:33   What do you guys use for iOS these days?

01:18:37   Feed Wrangler and Unread on my iPhone.

01:18:40   It's the only service and app that I use.

01:18:44   Yeah, I use Feedbin for the service and then Unread on iOS and Reader on the Mac.

01:18:53   So there's no way to, at least in the apps that you guys use, there's no way to sort

01:19:00   articles based on popularity in RSS?

01:19:04   No.

01:19:05   No, but I view something like Nuzzle, like Nuzzle for me kind of fills that need.

01:19:10   I don't necessarily want to look at my news that way all the time.

01:19:13   So it's a kind of view that's separate from the way I read RSS, but maybe that's just

01:19:18   me.

01:19:19   RSS and just getting news is not an important thing for me.

01:19:23   I find out about everything I need to find out about through osmosis on Twitter.

01:19:29   It just is there.

01:19:31   People are talking about it.

01:19:32   I don't have a business which relies on news quickly.

01:19:38   I don't need to post links and stuff like that.

01:19:41   And pretty much all of the topics on the shows tend to be what everybody's talking about.

01:19:49   So I have my last two items.

01:19:54   Zapier, it's basically an IFTTT for geeks.

01:20:01   I know that IFTTT is already for geeks.

01:20:04   This is basically the more advanced version.

01:20:07   This is for Federico.

01:20:09   - No, there's plenty of people using it, just not me.

01:20:12   Don't make me sound like the crazy person every time.

01:20:15   - You do a good job on Europe.

01:20:18   (laughing)

01:20:20   - I looked at it actually a couple of weeks ago maybe,

01:20:23   and it seems really crazy. - It's crazy.

01:20:27   Yes, it is.

01:20:28   So it's a web automation.

01:20:31   You can connect multiple services together.

01:20:33   IFTT calls them like channels and recipes.

01:20:38   Zapier calls them like just I think apps and zaps.

01:20:42   - Oh.

01:20:43   - Yeah, and actions, whatever.

01:20:46   The terminology is kind of weird,

01:20:48   but the functionality is amazing.

01:20:50   So you can do stuff like you can create conditions for IFS.

01:20:55   You can, there's a free service that you're using

01:21:02   in combination with Zapier called the Zapier Email Parser,

01:21:06   which looks for specific strings of text in emails,

01:21:13   and it can extract that text and use it as a placeholder

01:21:19   in other actions.

01:21:22   You can do stuff like--

01:21:25   it just offers more data when you're

01:21:27   trying to create an action.

01:21:31   Like, it allows you to--

01:21:33   like all the different tags and variables,

01:21:37   it's just much more, more, more than IFTTT.

01:21:41   You can create different,

01:21:46   you can use different accounts for the same service.

01:21:48   So you can connect like two Google Docs accounts

01:21:51   or two Twitter accounts,

01:21:53   and you can view a full history of all your actions

01:21:58   and whether they worked or not.

01:22:01   And if they didn't work, you can,

01:22:03   basically there's a debug mode

01:22:05   and you can understand why you're not,

01:22:08   a piece of data is not getting from service A to service B.

01:22:11   And in general, it's just a more advanced,

01:22:16   it's basically IFTTT for power users.

01:22:20   - It's also sort of expensive looking at this pricing.

01:22:24   - It is expensive.

01:22:24   I'm paying 20 bucks a month to use this.

01:22:27   So right now I'm doing stuff like,

01:22:29   I can post to different Slack channels using email.

01:22:37   That's kind of nice, but not like a must-have for me.

01:22:40   What is a nice addition to my workflow

01:22:44   is I'm getting notifications in pushover, which

01:22:49   is this notification iOS app.

01:22:52   Every time specific Twitter accounts or Apple's YouTube

01:22:57   channel or Apple's press release websites posts a new item, I get a notification on my device

01:23:07   and because I'm paying for the 20 bucks a month account, I'm getting those notifications in under

01:23:13   two minutes. They say 15 minutes, it's actually much much faster than that. I would like to have

01:23:19   like to know that it's not gonna be 15 minutes because in my experience it's never

01:23:25   been 15 minutes. I'm also using other stuff like I get a notification every time our newsletter goes

01:23:33   out on MailChimp. What else? I'm doing stuff to like save my RSS articles from Mac stories to a

01:23:41   Google spreadsheet. So I'm kind of curious to see whether this... because I think I

01:23:48   I stumbled across many limitations with IFTTT and I want to see whether my problem is the

01:23:56   lack of options in IFTTT or maybe that I just don't rely on web automation that much.

01:24:04   I just wanted to shake things up a bit and see what's up with my web automation.

01:24:13   You guys use IFTTT?

01:24:14   No, I mean, not really.

01:24:18   There are a couple of things that IFTTT does for me, but I don't use it as such.

01:24:25   Like, it's not something that I'm always adding to, like Workflow, which I love.

01:24:31   Yeah, I play with it, but I don't rely on it for anything on any regular basis.

01:24:40   I had some stuff like archiving to Evernote note, like Twitter favorites to Evernote,

01:24:45   that sort of thing, a while ago, but I sort of lost interest in it and I don't think

01:24:50   I have anything running currently.

01:24:52   Right then gentlemen, do you have anything else you'd like to add on this week's

01:24:56   show?

01:24:57   Or are we good?

01:24:58   Are we good to bring it home?

01:25:00   I think we're good, Myke.

01:25:02   I do want to say one thing.

01:25:03   I don't have the new fav animation that everybody has on Twitter.

01:25:07   I don't have it.

01:25:08   Like, I don't know why my app's up today.

01:25:09   - Are you using Twitter on the iPhone?

01:25:11   - Yeah. - The iPhone.

01:25:12   Are you sure? - Yes.

01:25:13   Am I sure I'm using it on the iPhone?

01:25:15   No, I'm using it on my Mac.

01:25:16   Of course it's my iPhone.

01:25:18   I don't have the animation.

01:25:19   I have the art animation. - This is your punishment.

01:25:21   This is your punishment.

01:25:22   - Twitter A/B test things even within their own app.

01:25:25   So maybe you're just not in the test group.

01:25:26   - So I'm in like the B group,

01:25:28   like the B minus minus group.

01:25:30   Everyone's like, "I love this animation."

01:25:32   I'm like, "What are you talking about?

01:25:33   "It's just the same as it was before."

01:25:34   There you go.

01:25:35   - And you're sure you updated the app?

01:25:37   100% I even deleted it and reinstalled it. Wow. You really wanted it. I

01:25:41   Don't know why I'm not getting it. The animation is so good Myke. I know everybody I've seen gifts

01:25:47   I've seen gifts. You really gotta see them in action, man. It's so good. I

01:25:53   Can't wait until Twitter does something you hate

01:25:56   Seems impossible

01:26:02   Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Connected.

01:26:05   You can find the show notes at relay.fm/connected/21.

01:26:09   Thanks so much to our sponsors this week, our friends over at Hover and LootCrate.

01:26:13   If you want to find us online, I am at imike, I-M-Y-K-E.

01:26:16   Federico is @vittici, V-I-T-I-C-C-I, and Steven is @ismh.

01:26:21   Steven writes the fantastic 512 pixels .net, and Federico writes thegreatmaxstories.net.

01:26:27   And I host many shows at relay.fm, which you can find at relay.fm.

01:26:31   And thanks so much for listening, we'll be back.

01:26:33   Say goodbye, boys.

01:26:34   Adios amigos.

01:26:35   Bye!

01:26:35   Adios amigos. Bye!

01:26:40   [