16: Spinning Down This Rolodex


00:00:00   So, today widgets.

00:00:02   - Oh.

00:00:03   (sighs)

00:00:03   (classical music)

00:00:06   - From Relay FM, this is Connected, episode number 16.

00:00:15   Today's episode of Connected is brought to you

00:00:18   by our friends at lynda.com, where you can instantly

00:00:20   stream thousands of courses created by industry experts.

00:00:23   For a 10-day free trial, visit lynda.com/connected.

00:00:28   Iconic, a fantastic book about Apple history and design and all of their fantastic products

00:00:33   and also by Hover, simplified domain management.

00:00:37   My name is Myke Hurley and as always I am joined by Mr Federico Vittucci.

00:00:41   Hi Federico.

00:00:42   Oh hey Myke, how are you doing?

00:00:43   I am very well, how are you?

00:00:45   I'm doing good sir.

00:00:46   Did you hear the Italian flair that I put on your name today?

00:00:50   Yeah I know you've been exercising.

00:00:53   You're taking secret Italian classes in your spare time.

00:00:56   I don't know why honestly.

00:00:57   Well, I have an Italian vitamin supplement that I take every day.

00:01:01   It's full of olive oil.

00:01:05   I'm also joined by Steven Hackett.

00:01:07   Hi Steven!

00:01:09   No accent for me?

00:01:10   Uh, no.

00:01:11   Can you do a southern accent, Myke?

00:01:15   No.

00:01:16   That's weird because you're sound.

00:01:20   How it is, Steven.

00:01:22   Oh god.

00:01:23   How's that?

00:01:24   There's been a lot of conversation that you sound more American than you used to,

00:01:30   which is definitely true.

00:01:31   100% true.

00:01:32   I don't know, how do you feel about that?

00:01:33   Is that weird?

00:01:34   Like, are you saddened?

00:01:35   No, I'm fine with it.

00:01:38   But there are some things you say that are the way I say them.

00:01:45   You said something the other day on another show, and it was the exact same inflection

00:01:48   that I do, which is a little Southern.

00:01:50   I'm like, "Oh, I've ruined…"

00:01:52   I feel guilty.

00:01:53   I feel guilty for Americanizing you.

00:01:56   And then you had Thanksgiving dinner, which is crazy.

00:01:59   So, Myke, this new accent of yours, do you only use it on the shows?

00:02:05   No.

00:02:06   Or is it like a real life new accent that you have and you're like, people are surprised?

00:02:11   No, this is my real voice now.

00:02:14   This is the voice that I have.

00:02:16   I talk this way.

00:02:18   I only try and enunciate a little clearer on the shows, but I do have a new voice.

00:02:23   I was going through some odd files the other day of shows and it's like just this weird

00:02:30   person.

00:02:31   Do you announce yourself to people in conversations like you do for each show?

00:02:35   Well, yeah.

00:02:36   My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined today by my friends.

00:02:39   That's how I enter rooms.

00:02:41   Yeah.

00:02:42   Hello, my name is Myke Hurley and I'm at the fridge.

00:02:47   This dinner is brought to you by Heinz Tomato Ketchup.

00:02:51   Wow.

00:02:52   That's how I live my life now.

00:02:55   I think your voice is also a little deeper, like a little...

00:02:58   A little more gravelly.

00:03:00   A little more gravelly.

00:03:01   I think that just comes from talking so much.

00:03:04   Yeah.

00:03:05   Yeah.

00:03:06   I don't know, you don't smoke, so I guess it's just the podcasting.

00:03:11   Yeah.

00:03:12   Don't do podcast, kids.

00:03:13   It'll ruin your voice.

00:03:15   It's true.

00:03:17   You need like a patch when you're not podcasting to get the fix.

00:03:20   yeah well that's when I listen to podcasts make sure it's a dynamic patch

00:03:24   though you need a Skype patch they were both excellent jokes and it's just a

00:03:32   shame that neither of you allowed each other to to fully express them so that's

00:03:37   just how it is thanks for the clarification Myke no worries no I just

00:03:42   want you to both know that I appreciate your comedy you do yeah that's so I'm

00:03:47   I'm glad to hear that.

00:03:49   You know, because I mean, last week,

00:03:51   we didn't do comedy.

00:03:54   - We did. - No.

00:03:56   No, we didn't, did we?

00:03:58   We didn't do any of that.

00:04:00   Well, are we migrating into a segment right now?

00:04:05   - I think we're moving towards a follow-up.

00:04:09   - Follow-up.

00:04:12   - Oh, whoa, it's Myke.

00:04:14   (laughing)

00:04:16   That was amazing.

00:04:18   Anytime.

00:04:19   It's like it came from space.

00:04:22   Came from Mars, baby.

00:04:24   Yeah.

00:04:25   We're going to Mars.

00:04:26   Humanity is going to Mars, guys.

00:04:28   Apparently so.

00:04:29   Apparently so.

00:04:30   That was a surprise, right?

00:04:32   I mean, not if you follow all the NASA blogs.

00:04:35   Some people might.

00:04:36   Like space nerds, like you.

00:04:39   Wow.

00:04:40   Is Steven a space nerd?

00:04:41   Beside the OS X nerd?

00:04:44   Yeah.

00:04:45   He likes old space like he likes old Max.

00:04:48   - It's true, yeah, the Apollo was awesome.

00:04:50   Space shuttle was dumb.

00:04:52   Can I have a space podcast on the network?

00:04:54   Oh, I don't need permission.

00:04:55   I'm gonna do a space podcast.

00:04:57   Let's do follow up.

00:04:58   So apparently there are apps that can make GIFs

00:05:01   with burst photos.

00:05:02   - No.

00:05:03   - Which is something that we said was not true.

00:05:06   - No, basically.

00:05:07   So I wrote these notes myself.

00:05:12   I didn't mean to write them for you, I apologize.

00:05:14   I shouldn't have let you start this.

00:05:15   Basically, this is on the subject of apps

00:05:18   that can make GIFs with burst photos,

00:05:20   which is something I was talking about last week.

00:05:22   - But can't take existing burst and create GIFs.

00:05:24   This is the most confusing outline I've ever seen.

00:05:26   - It's not written for you, it's written for me.

00:05:28   So, I was talking about that last week,

00:05:31   but there isn't there, 'cause there is an API that can do it.

00:05:33   I have had this verified by smart people.

00:05:36   I've spoken to smart people this week,

00:05:37   and they have told me that this is definitely true.

00:05:39   So people have been sending me in this week,

00:05:43   apps that they believe solve the problem that I am trying to,

00:05:47   that I would like to be solved, but they don't.

00:05:49   So there's two apps that have been sent in to me,

00:05:52   one by Patrick Welker, sorry, called Giffer Pro,

00:05:55   which is one of the worst looking applications

00:05:57   I've ever seen.

00:05:58   And it's horrible, just look at the link.

00:06:02   And Camoji, which was sent into us by a designer

00:06:05   of everything, Relay FM, Frank Towers.

00:06:08   Basically what these apps both do is they allow you

00:06:10   to take either burst photos in the app and turn them into GIFs, or video and turn them

00:06:15   into GIFs. None of these apps allow you to take existing burst photos and turn those

00:06:21   into GIFs. That's what I'm talking about.

00:06:23   So the problem is that you have many existing burst photos?

00:06:26   No, it's just if I take a burst photo, I'm very rarely taking it for the purpose to make

00:06:32   a GIF out of it, I'm taking it for a reason, and then later then want to make it into a

00:06:36   GIF. I don't really like apps like...

00:06:39   just in general. I don't like apps. I preferred them when they were programs and...

00:06:45   Hey! I see what you did.

00:06:48   No worries. I don't like apps that work as... what am I saying?

00:06:55   Myke, what is it that you don't like exactly?

00:06:59   So let's say it's something to do with a photo. I don't like it when you have to do everything in that one app.

00:07:07   Like I like to be able to take the output of the camera app

00:07:11   and turn that into the thing.

00:07:12   So it's not like, oh, I wanna take this photo

00:07:15   and make it a GIF.

00:07:16   Let me go and find that app and open that app.

00:07:18   I just wanna take what the camera app gives me

00:07:20   and turn that into a thing.

00:07:22   Am I making any sense?

00:07:24   - It kinda makes sense, yeah.

00:07:26   - It's like I prefer to not be constrained

00:07:30   just by that one app and what that can do.

00:07:33   - Yeah, because it means you can just use

00:07:34   the Apple camera app and then, you know,

00:07:36   just send all these photos to different utilities,

00:07:39   depending on kind of what you want to make.

00:07:42   - That is exactly it.

00:07:43   Yeah. - Yeah.

00:07:43   - So it's not relying on me,

00:07:46   like sandboxing it into that one application.

00:07:50   - Yeah, I also have a problem

00:07:52   with all these like specialized camera apps,

00:07:55   because I know that I'm going to use

00:07:57   the Apple camera app anyway, you know?

00:07:59   Especially because of the control center shortcut.

00:08:02   I don't keep the camera icon on my home screen,

00:08:06   because I have the control center.

00:08:10   Also, kind of related to burst photos,

00:08:15   I think I mentioned this before.

00:08:17   I would love to have a burst mode for screenshots on iOS

00:08:21   just to make--

00:08:22   there is?

00:08:24   Yes.

00:08:24   Screenshots?

00:08:25   Yeah, you have to use Google+, which

00:08:28   your response to that tweet was really funny.

00:08:32   Google+ has some sort of app or feature.

00:08:36   When you put photos into Google+, you can select a bunch of them and...

00:08:40   Oh yeah, but my problem is that I cannot take burst screenshots to begin with.

00:08:47   Like imagine if you could...

00:08:50   It's gotta be fast, just...

00:08:51   You need a friend to come help you because your friend's too big.

00:08:58   The screenshot friend, yeah.

00:09:00   Also, the ability to record screencasts on iOS, like you can with QuickTime on the Mac.

00:09:07   And now people will say, "Why don't you just use the Mac to take screencast?"

00:09:10   Yeah, okay, yeah, whatever.

00:09:12   I'm gonna get this people.

00:09:14   Do you wanna know something weird about that?

00:09:16   You know that the video thing, I don't know if you knew this Federico, and I hope that

00:09:21   you don't know it so I can give you a piece of information.

00:09:24   So you know that when you're using QuickTime to record the screencast, and it does the

00:09:30   thing where it cleans up the status bar for you.

00:09:32   Yes.

00:09:33   Did you know it actually does it on the device, not just--

00:09:35   Yes, it's done in real time.

00:09:36   It's rendered on iOS.

00:09:38   Which is so weird, isn't it?

00:09:40   It's awesome.

00:09:40   Oh, no, it's great that it does it.

00:09:42   But I plugged it in, and I was like, oh, it

00:09:43   does it on my device, too.

00:09:45   Yeah, it's a private API that I know a few developers have

00:09:48   tried to make apps with that.

00:09:52   And of course, you know how that ends when you

00:09:55   try to do private Apple stuff.

00:09:57   There's a button in your app.

00:09:58   Remove it.

00:09:59   Okay, we'll get to that later.

00:10:00   - Spoiler alert.

00:10:01   - Yeah, I would love to have quick time on iOS.

00:10:07   Please don't be upset, Myke.

00:10:09   Don't be upset.

00:10:10   I won't use it for podcasts.

00:10:12   - You can have all of your apps on iOS.

00:10:14   You just can't plug your devices in.

00:10:15   - Yeah, but you don't like apps, right?

00:10:17   - What you really need, you need a USB port on your iPad.

00:10:21   - Not again, okay, okay, yeah, okay.

00:10:24   - SD card slot or serial port.

00:10:27   - They should just have four home buttons,

00:10:28   like one on every, do you remember that when that was a thing?

00:10:30   Yeah, that was.

00:10:31   The iPad's gonna get two home buttons.

00:10:33   No, it's not.

00:10:34   Yeah, no, it's really, it's really not.

00:10:36   I do.

00:10:37   I don't know if you guys do this, but I have lots of problems when I use my iPad

00:10:44   mini now because the power button is not where it is on my phone and I use my

00:10:48   phone a lot more, like I've already so quickly adjusted to the button layout on

00:10:53   the phone that the iPad is just broken.

00:10:56   I'm like, where's the button?

00:10:57   I can't find the button.

00:10:58   like it's very confusing.

00:10:59   - I struggle to either adjust the volume

00:11:01   or lock my phone with one hand still though.

00:11:04   Like I press both of them.

00:11:05   - You bought the wrong phone.

00:11:06   - Nope, nope.

00:11:07   'Cause the button I have is sort of the same.

00:11:09   - You guys want a quick teachy tip

00:11:10   about adjusting to different devices?

00:11:15   - Yeah.

00:11:16   - Yes.

00:11:16   - Okay, so.

00:11:17   - Don't know why I'm nervous.

00:11:18   - I am too though.

00:11:20   - Okay, so here's my tip this week.

00:11:22   Because I'm using the iPad in landscape mode,

00:11:25   when I'm at my desk and I use a Bluetooth keyboard to type.

00:11:29   What I did is I set up my, in the touch ID settings,

00:11:35   I set up my fingerprint in the,

00:11:38   like in a different orientation so that when I'm at my desk,

00:11:41   I can just hold my finger and I don't have to rotate it

00:11:44   to unlock with touch ID.

00:11:45   So it kind of works even if you don't set up

00:11:48   a different fingerprint in the settings,

00:11:50   but if you do, it's faster

00:11:52   because it doesn't have to like think about it.

00:11:55   So yeah.

00:11:56   - So can I tell you that your tip is dumb?

00:11:59   - But why is it dumb?

00:11:59   - Because on the Touch ID page, Apple says,

00:12:02   I'm gonna quote them,

00:12:04   place your finger on the home button

00:12:07   and just like that your iPhone unlocks.

00:12:09   Touch ID is capable of 360 degree readability,

00:12:12   which means no matter what orientation,

00:12:14   your iPhone reads your fingerprint and knows who you are.

00:12:17   - Okay, I'm gonna test this live on the show.

00:12:19   - Yeah, so try your thumb upside down.

00:12:21   - Yeah, it works, yeah.

00:12:22   - Totally works.

00:12:23   For me after a while it becomes like slow.

00:12:26   I can sell that it's- - It's 'cause you have pasta

00:12:27   in your hands.

00:12:28   - Yeah, you're sweating too much.

00:12:29   - I don't have pasta.

00:12:30   I'm not sweating, I perfectly stable.

00:12:33   - I know why it is.

00:12:33   - And normal hands.

00:12:36   - It's 'cause you're working from the hot tub.

00:12:38   - No, not really.

00:12:40   - Have you ever tried to unlock your phone

00:12:41   after taking a shower?

00:12:42   It doesn't work.

00:12:43   - I don't care what the Apple documentation says.

00:12:45   You set up a second fingerprint for-

00:12:47   - How dare you, sir.

00:12:48   - For iPad landscape usage, you're gonna thank me.

00:12:52   This is like when people told me,

00:12:53   You don't have to set manual brightness and then you know battery life was better for many people

00:12:59   So my iPad doesn't have touch ID because Myke talked me out of it. I don't have manual brightness because

00:13:04   So we're gonna do this other thing I have a serious piece of follow-up

00:13:13   Real quickly. So of all the feedback that I got for the Twitter

00:13:21   monitoring installed apps thing

00:13:23   that I said it wasn't a big deal and you know, I still think that of all the the stuff that companies can can

00:13:31   Monitor this is not a big deal in my opinion still I got a lot of feedback and of all the feedback that I got

00:13:38   the best

00:13:41   Country argument to my to my point

00:13:43   From a listener whose name I cannot remember

00:13:47   basically, I'm sorry, I don't remember your name, it's not personal,

00:13:52   basically said, what if I keep on my device apps that are related to my sexual orientation,

00:14:01   and I don't want to tell anyone else yet?

00:14:05   That's a great idea.

00:14:06   That's a great point, and I should have thought of that.

00:14:10   And of all the feedback that I got, like, yeah, I think it's a big deal,

00:14:15   Yeah, I don't think it's a big deal because such and such.

00:14:18   This is the best practical and I guess fair point.

00:14:22   So thanks for sending it over Twitter.

00:14:25   Yeah.

00:14:26   That is a very good point.

00:14:28   Yeah.

00:14:29   Yeah, absolutely.

00:14:30   It's like the Target thing, right?

00:14:32   Where Target sent what they call or sent an advertisement or something about diapers and

00:14:36   like they didn't know or like their parents didn't know they were pregnant or something.

00:14:40   thing where a company could know more than people is, well it's probably already true

00:14:45   with a bunch of companies, but it's sort of a strange situation to think about.

00:14:49   And it's a really good point.

00:14:51   And it's not that Twitter is like publishing this, but it's the fact that they know and

00:14:56   that you might see ads based on that information.

00:15:02   I think Myke, I think you said it last week, the idea that this is not information I'm

00:15:06   putting into the system, this is information the app is getting on its own, like a lot

00:15:10   of ramifications, and I'm sure there are even more that we haven't thought about.

00:15:13   But it's good.

00:15:16   Good feedback.

00:15:17   We've basically called an amnesty on this topic, because it's been a lot of discussion

00:15:27   aimed at us this week about it.

00:15:30   A lot of people agree with me, a lot of people agree with Federico, and me and Federico don't

00:15:35   talk anymore because of it. So we're just, you know, it is what it is.

00:15:43   This is just one of those things that we differ in opinion on and I think that there are valid

00:15:46   arguments on both sides. And I told Federico privately, and I'm gonna say it on the show,

00:15:53   when he posts his Twitter article, I am going to try and just use the Twitter app for as

00:15:59   long as I possibly can and see how far I go.

00:16:02   So can I say something about the Twitter app itself and not the politics?

00:16:08   So I feel the same way that I wanted to understand the app itself.

00:16:13   So I have been using it a good bit the last couple days.

00:16:18   And my fundamental problem with it is that I just find it confusing coming from Tweetbot

00:16:23   where a tweet can be in several locations and like the replies and that sort of stuff

00:16:28   I think is, it's not so much about the UI itself, but that it's just, there's a lot

00:16:36   going on and it can be disorienting at times of where I am in the timeline and what's going

00:16:40   on.

00:16:41   I have no idea what earns the gray line and what doesn't earn the gray line.

00:16:46   It's just a lot of elements going on that I think they need to simplify.

00:16:48   But if you like your tweets so much, why don't you want to see them more?

00:16:54   That's the thinking, right?

00:16:56   I guess.

00:16:57   It's like Facebook, right?

00:16:59   No one actually sees the real Facebook timeline.

00:17:00   It's about how they portray it.

00:17:03   And I understand they're trying to make the content more interesting.

00:17:05   And there's a lot of good stuff in the Twitter app.

00:17:07   I really like the...

00:17:09   What is it?

00:17:10   What's the screen name?

00:17:11   Where you can see other people's favorite and...

00:17:14   Activity.

00:17:15   Yeah, that's really pretty neat.

00:17:18   And it's a good way to...

00:17:21   I don't have notifications on for favorites or anything, but it's nice to know how a tweet

00:17:26   performs. Oh God, I hate myself. But, um, it's, there's good stuff in there. I just

00:17:31   find it like sort of overwhelming. I don't even know what's happening.

00:17:34   Maybe I'm just old.

00:17:37   Well, I'm a, if, uh, if it matters, I'm already at, uh, 10,000 words and I don't

00:17:46   think I'm halfway through the article.

00:17:48   I can't read that. Myke can't read that.

00:17:50   Yeah, I know. Myke, you can, you can, uh, skip the sections.

00:17:54   That's longer than my review of Yosemite.

00:17:56   [LAUGHTER]

00:17:57   Kij, can you just call me on that day and just read it to me?

00:18:01   With my voice?

00:18:02   Yeah.

00:18:03   OK.

00:18:04   Yeah.

00:18:05   We'll be like an hour on Skype.

00:18:07   That's fine.

00:18:08   And I will read you my article about Twitter.

00:18:11   We can make it a visa.

00:18:12   It's not only about the Twitter app, so this will be interesting.

00:18:16   This is new for me.

00:18:18   I'm pretty excited.

00:18:20   I thought I will likely spend a weekend taking screenshots, which is going to be fun.

00:18:27   I'm really excited.

00:18:28   Oh, this is going to be one of those weekends where you send us text messages asking us

00:18:33   to do things for you, isn't it?

00:18:34   Yeah, like send me fake messages and stuff.

00:18:38   I enjoy those though.

00:18:40   I do enjoy trying to think of new things to send you, to entertain the Max Stories audience.

00:18:46   That's what I'm about.

00:18:47   I'm an entertainer.

00:18:48   Oh, yeah?

00:18:49   professional podcasters. I was writing something the other day I can't remember

00:18:56   what it was and I wanted to write that instead. It should be on your

00:19:03   business card. I think I can't remember what it was but it was something like

00:19:07   that and I was like no I want to say podcasters oh that was it I was I had an

00:19:11   idea for for a blog post about about being a professional podcaster and I

00:19:17   wanted to call it professional blogbusters. You wanted to publish a blog post? I wanted to, yeah.

00:19:21   But what happened? I calmed down. You should have issued a bunch of

00:19:30   posits tweets. I should have done actually. I had lots of posits that day.

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00:20:56   Wi-Fi or LTE or something like that. Lindas courses are extremely varied and

00:21:03   they cover so many different types of hardware software computer stuff and

00:21:07   it's not all computer stuff do they have like if maybe you want to learn how to

00:21:11   take better photography. Maybe you want to learn how to give better

00:21:14   presentations. This isn't just in the software. They also can teach you

00:21:18   practical skills and they can also teach you like different ways to think like

00:21:22   time management and stuff like that as well. They have absolutely everything.

00:21:27   If for some reason you've yet to try lynda.com or even go and look at their library

00:21:31   go right now to lynda.com/connected that's L Y N D A dot com slash connected

00:21:37   you'll see just a selection of the hundreds of thousands of videos they have and you'll

00:21:42   also get yourself a special extended 10 day free trial just for listeners of this show.

00:21:48   Thank you so much to Linda for the continued support of Connected and helping us out at

00:21:53   Relay FM.

00:21:54   Michael, you spent Monday, was it Monday?

00:22:01   It was Monday, yeah.

00:22:02   Doing a thing.

00:22:04   What did you do on Monday?

00:22:06   On Monday I was at the Apple Store Regent Street moderating, well I don't know why they

00:22:12   call it moderating because it was just one person.

00:22:14   I was interviewing Neil McFarland who is the director of games for US2Games who you may

00:22:20   know as the developers of Monument Valley.

00:22:23   So I sat down with Neil and we spoke for about 40 minutes on video in the Apple Store Regent

00:22:30   Street.

00:22:31   Wait, wait, wait, there's a video?

00:22:33   Yeah.

00:22:34   Yeah, yeah, it's in full HD, baby.

00:22:37   I've had some very concerned people tweeting me today.

00:22:41   It's not normal for them to see me in video,

00:22:44   but now you can see me on video,

00:22:45   if that's what you really want to do.

00:22:46   - Let me take a look.

00:22:47   - I got all spruced up.

00:22:48   I was all spruced up.

00:22:51   Thank you, Steven, for calling me handsome.

00:22:53   I appreciate that.

00:22:53   It was a really interesting interview.

00:22:59   It was a very different event.

00:23:00   It was a great day,

00:23:00   'cause we were talking about the red stuff, you know?

00:23:04   And it was actually World AIDS Day on Monday,

00:23:07   so when I was there.

00:23:08   And it was a very, very enjoyable experience.

00:23:11   It was very different.

00:23:12   There was a small audience.

00:23:13   I had to do the standard interview.

00:23:15   There's a Q&A part.

00:23:16   There was only one question in the Q&A,

00:23:18   so I had to come up with new questions

00:23:20   just off the top of my head to ask, which was great.

00:23:24   And it was a great honor.

00:23:26   I met some great people that night, and I was very...

00:23:29   It felt fantastic to be in that environment

00:23:33   and do something like that and now it's available on the iTunes store

00:23:36   and I got a little plug for relay FM in it at the start as well

00:23:40   I'm trying to find your face in the video

00:23:44   It's after like 30 or 40 seconds

00:23:47   they throw to me it right at the start

00:23:49   Oh I'm looking at your face now

00:23:51   There you go

00:23:52   Your face is moving, you're talking

00:23:54   You're very handsome Myke

00:23:55   Thank you, thank you very much

00:23:57   Nice shirt man

00:23:58   I dressed up

00:24:00   I got my herded, I got my bearded

00:24:02   So strange to see your face, like with your lips moving.

00:24:07   Oh yeah, because I guess like because me and you had never met before.

00:24:09   Because for me, like for me, you are your profile picture and your voice.

00:24:16   Yeah.

00:24:17   And the picture moving is kind of weird, you know?

00:24:22   So this is how people felt when they saw TV for the first time.

00:24:25   So Myke, as much as you can say, how did this...

00:24:32   Is that a pebble, Myke? Sorry, Stephen, is that a pebble?

00:24:34   Yeah, pebble steel. You know I'm a pebble user, that's not a secret.

00:24:37   Mine is charging right now because it's dead.

00:24:41   Anyways, Myke, how did this come about?

00:24:43   Well, originally it was meant to be Dan Gray, who's the executive producer,

00:24:50   but unfortunately he had to pull out at the last minute, so his boss, Neil, stepped in.

00:24:55   Dan just... Basically, Apple had asked us if they would do this.

00:25:02   they said yes.

00:25:03   And usually there are guest moderators.

00:25:04   I don't know what the standard protocol is

00:25:06   for having a moderator,

00:25:09   but because some videos from the Read&Treat store

00:25:13   have celebrities interviewing app developers,

00:25:17   so there's a lot of Stephen Fry, well I guess so.

00:25:19   And then other than that, they have a guy from The Guardian

00:25:23   who seems to do most of them.

00:25:25   So maybe they give the offer,

00:25:26   like would you like to have someone?

00:25:27   And Dan asked me if I would do it,

00:25:29   and of course I said yes.

00:25:30   So yeah, and then I kind of corresponded with him

00:25:35   and the people, there are actually people

00:25:37   that work for Apple that are like, this is their job,

00:25:40   they are the theater managers and the theater team

00:25:43   of these events, 'cause these events,

00:25:45   they have huge celebrities.

00:25:46   Like there are videos from the Regency store

00:25:49   of like Stephen Fry, Cameron Diaz,

00:25:51   they have movie stars there,

00:25:52   like they had Jon Hamm there a couple of weeks ago.

00:25:54   And so yeah, then they basically said to me,

00:25:58   prepare your questions, so I did that.

00:26:00   And kind of, yeah, and got there on the day

00:26:05   and we sat in the not fancy green room

00:26:08   and went to talk through some things with Neil

00:26:10   and then we got up on stage and I did my thing.

00:26:13   - You should have talked about photo management.

00:26:16   - I tried to, I tried to, but they kept like,

00:26:19   they kept threatening me from the side of the stage,

00:26:21   so I had to stop.

00:26:22   - You should have pushed the relay agenda on stage.

00:26:27   - I kind of did. - Still.

00:26:28   right at the start. I said I was from Real AFM, so.

00:26:31   And then a poison dart came out of the back and hit Myke in the neck.

00:26:37   So, and Daniel was on episode 14 of Inquisitor, which if you haven't listened to is really good.

00:26:42   Yeah.

00:26:44   I was really, I mean I love Monument Valley, although I'm currently angry with the red level because I'm stuck.

00:26:51   But it's a great game and listening to the interview,

00:26:56   and then I haven't watched your video yet,

00:26:58   it just came out today, but they really care about it

00:27:01   in a very deep way.

00:27:04   And it really shows in the game, right,

00:27:06   that they sweat every single little detail.

00:27:10   And it's cool, it's cool that you got an interview.

00:27:12   Congratulations on doing that.

00:27:15   - Congrats, Myke.

00:27:16   - Thank you.

00:27:16   Yeah, Neil has some really cool stuff to say, so.

00:27:19   - Yeah, you are--

00:27:19   - It's just really interesting to watch.

00:27:20   Even if you've listened to the video I did with Dan, like Neil has some other stuff to say.

00:27:23   They also talk through a couple of levels, like they demo them, and me and Neil are talking

00:27:31   about what's happening in the levels as they're happening, so it's pretty cool.

00:27:34   There's a lot of good stuff in there, actually.

00:27:36   Is it weird to interview somebody when you could see them?

00:27:39   I thought it would be, but it was very easy.

00:27:44   Wait, does that mean you can see me now?

00:27:47   Are all the podcasts secretly video podcasts?

00:27:49   Well I have like little dolls made of you all and I just sit them in front of me when

00:27:53   I'm talking so usually it's fine.

00:27:56   Myke is it fair to say that you are now a professional video casters?

00:28:02   It is fair actually.

00:28:05   I'm going to take that.

00:28:06   I am now a professional vlogger as well as a podcaster.

00:28:11   I mean it's a heck of a way to start.

00:28:13   Yeah it's a pretty big bang initially.

00:28:15   I don't really know how I'm gonna follow that up, but I'll find a way.

00:28:20   Some people are creationist.

00:28:22   Anyways, topic.

00:28:24   We ready for topic 0.5?

00:28:26   What has happened to our topic numbers, by the way?

00:28:28   So that was topic 0.3, the next is 0.5, the next, after the next ad read is 0.6.

00:28:34   We don't have, well, we have one topic one.

00:28:36   Yeah, we have taken the Google Chrome versioning number.

00:28:40   Yeah, we should go back to the Facebook where everyone just has a normal number.

00:28:44   - Topic 20.

00:28:45   - Are they, they're version like 19 now, I think.

00:28:48   - This is probably technically like topic 416,

00:28:52   or something like that, but.

00:28:53   - Oh yeah, we should have counted from the beginning.

00:28:55   - Uh huh, that would have been great.

00:28:56   - We should have somebody download all the prompt episodes

00:28:58   and do that.

00:28:59   We could just have it running Tally.

00:29:00   - Count all the topics.

00:29:01   - You know that's gonna happen, right?

00:29:02   Eventually.

00:29:03   - Maybe.

00:29:05   - Like people like our dear listeners

00:29:08   will do some sort of workflow to count the episodes.

00:29:13   Can't you do something like this in editorial?

00:29:15   No, because you don't support chapters in the files.

00:29:22   Please don't.

00:29:23   Stop.

00:29:23   Stop.

00:29:24   Don't you dare.

00:29:25   Don't do this to me, man.

00:29:26   [LAUGHTER]

00:29:27   OK.

00:29:28   I had basically everybody in Germany tweet me a week ago,

00:29:31   telling me to do it.

00:29:32   In Germany?

00:29:33   What, Germany?

00:29:33   Germany is very much about order.

00:29:35   They want sanctioned files.

00:29:37   A listener from Germany tweeted me

00:29:40   and said that he wanted me to add chapters.

00:29:42   and I said that not enough people want it,

00:29:44   it's not something that I'm interested in doing,

00:29:46   and he was like, "loads of people want it."

00:29:47   And I said to him, "If you get a thousand people

00:29:50   to tell me that you want--" - No, no way.

00:29:51   Why did you do that?

00:29:53   - 'Cause I thought it wouldn't happen.

00:29:55   I said, "If you get a thousand people to tell me

00:29:58   that you want chapters, that they want chapters,

00:30:01   I'll do it."

00:30:02   - Did he start a petition?

00:30:03   - He basically tweeted a few times

00:30:05   and got other people to tweet,

00:30:06   and it was just effectively,

00:30:07   it was just a bunch of people from Germany

00:30:09   and other places in Europe.

00:30:10   You were just watching just all night. It's like for like for two days like they didn't get to a thousand

00:30:16   It was maybe no more than 100

00:30:18   But they just kept coming in and they were like, yeah

00:30:20   And there was like people were like issuing tweets that were like if you want chapters in really fm shows

00:30:25   You got a tweet at Myke and tell him this and I'm like, oh, what have I done?

00:30:27   It was like it felt like fun to me at the time. I appreciate you not dragging me into that

00:30:32   Yeah, I know that I that was solely my thing to do it

00:30:35   Perfectly fine. I'm still it guys

00:30:39   We have a topic

00:30:41   So we talked a lot about Twitter last week and

00:30:46   We did Federico has put a question. I assume this was Federico. I did it. I did it

00:30:52   I was not I was not on top of the notes this week

00:30:55   What would we want from us a new social network now to replace Twitter?

00:30:58   Let me set this up then for while I was thinking this so I actually was also talking to this today with Gina

00:31:04   Trapani and inquisitive it's not posted yet, but it will be over time. This is out anyway

00:31:08   I was thinking, the problem that we have is,

00:31:13   and we spoke about this, we're stuck in Twitter.

00:31:18   No matter whether we love it or hate it,

00:31:20   there's kind of nothing we can do

00:31:22   because this is where we are.

00:31:23   We're kind of stuck in this now.

00:31:25   This is our thing.

00:31:26   App.net died because we wouldn't all move over there.

00:31:29   We went there, but we didn't move.

00:31:31   So we're kind of in this scenario where this is where we are.

00:31:35   So my thing can be the only way that we can break away

00:31:39   from Twitter is that something has to replace it, right?

00:31:42   Because we all kind of love this community that we have

00:31:45   and we wanna go there.

00:31:46   So what do we want?

00:31:48   What does a social network need to do

00:31:50   and what do we want from one

00:31:52   that would make it like the perfect social network?

00:31:55   That we wouldn't have any problems with it

00:31:57   and it would be awesome and we would be happy to be there.

00:32:00   So I broke this down to a few things.

00:32:03   So like what features do we want?

00:32:05   like who needs to be there?

00:32:06   Like how many of our friends or like what types of friends

00:32:08   do we just want our nerds?

00:32:09   Do we want celebrities?

00:32:10   Do we want real friends?

00:32:11   Do we need them all?

00:32:13   What do we want the company's values to be?

00:32:16   Do we want there to be apps like that are made first party

00:32:21   or third party and what does the API need to look like?

00:32:24   They're kind of like the basic sort of areas

00:32:27   that I wanted to explore.

00:32:28   - Okay.

00:32:30   - So for me, I'll start it off.

00:32:32   - Okay.

00:32:33   I quite like something which is more of a combination

00:32:36   between Twitter and Instagram.

00:32:37   So I don't want like a Facebook,

00:32:40   but I want in essence text to be,

00:32:44   it to be like mainly text.

00:32:46   I don't wanna go all the way up to 256 characters

00:32:49   'cause it's too much,

00:32:50   but maybe a little bit more than 140.

00:32:52   I love all of the mechanics of Twitter.

00:32:56   So at replies, hashtags, all of that sort of stuff.

00:33:00   But I would like images to be supported greater.

00:33:02   So it maybe could look a little bit more like the sort of wrap of cards for example, you know,

00:33:07   but like in to fit it to be more photo features built right in because it's

00:33:12   like a big thing that you share. And I think for me that's like kind of the

00:33:18   perfect type like feature set. And I would for me to be there I would just

00:33:24   need my nerdy friends. I'm totally cool with celebrities not being there. I'm

00:33:27   totally cool with that my real-life friends being there like there are other

00:33:31   social networks where that can occur but I want like you know the the bloggers

00:33:36   that I enjoy and the podcasters that I enjoy and like my friends that I have

00:33:40   because of this stuff you know like the people that I've met and become

00:33:45   acquainted with because of this type of stuff I would like all of those people

00:33:49   to be there so I can basically replicate the type of discussion I see every day.

00:33:53   The company itself like a lot of things don't really bother me I would like the

00:33:59   company's business model to just let me pay. Ideally that's what I would like to

00:34:04   do and I would pay a relatively large sum of money. I'd probably pay

00:34:08   like $25 to $30 a month I would pay for a service like that if it meant that it

00:34:13   would stay around forever and wouldn't be like changed in ways that we don't

00:34:17   want. I don't care if they have advertising as long as they're very

00:34:20   clear about the way that they do the advertising and they don't like take any

00:34:25   data that I wouldn't want to give them and that sort of stuff.

00:34:30   Paying and getting advertising is not necessarily that much of an

00:34:34   issue for me as long as it kind of fits. With apps there should be a first-party

00:34:41   application in my opinion for a network like this so it can show

00:34:45   people what they think should be done in the same way that like Apple's apps

00:34:49   exist. They're like "this is how we think it should be done, you can choose

00:34:53   whatever you want to do it like this but we are setting the standard of this is

00:34:56   how minimum how good our apps need to be and I would want there to be an API that

00:35:01   was very much like the Twitter of old which basically allowed people to have

00:35:04   access to everything they could they could get into everything nothing is

00:35:07   closed off like there's no features that the official app that has that the API

00:35:11   couldn't have and that kind of thing so it's for me it's like a mix between like

00:35:18   the third-party world and Twitter of old like and maybe a little bit of app.net

00:35:24   sprinkled in here and there. It sounds like you described app.net. Yeah, because

00:35:30   that's kind of what they were doing right like yeah because in theory like

00:35:34   this is the whole thing like in theory app.net was perfect it was perfect but

00:35:39   they came up in theory no in saying in theory like it was everything in theory

00:35:44   that we would have wanted a service to replace Twitter to be, right?

00:35:48   Because it kind of had all of the things that we wanted

00:35:51   and it combated things that we were unhappy about.

00:35:55   The problem was we didn't move.

00:35:57   It was just full of geeks.

00:35:59   That's what I mean. Like if everybody moved,

00:36:01   like that's what I mean, like in a perfect world,

00:36:04   App.net was perfect because it gave everything that we wanted,

00:36:07   didn't give us the stuff we didn't want,

00:36:09   and allowed us to pay for it and had a great API.

00:36:12   And like there was a great app ecosystem, right?

00:36:14   In theory, that was what people said that they wanted from Twitter for years.

00:36:18   Yeah, but it lacked the diversity of Twitter.

00:36:25   But that's what I'm saying.

00:36:26   It was only people talking about tech.

00:36:27   Yeah, but that's what I'm saying.

00:36:29   It's like in a perfect world, so everyone moving, if basically you took Twitter's entire

00:36:34   user base, lifted them up, and put app.net below them and lowered them back down again,

00:36:39   it's perfect.

00:36:40   That's what I'm saying.

00:36:41   You needed to have done that.

00:36:43   You won't get people to pay for these kind of services.

00:36:46   I know, I know, I understand that, but I'm just saying, like, in a perfect world.

00:36:52   Yeah.

00:36:53   So, I think there's a lot of interesting things in there.

00:37:01   As you were talking about it, I was reminded of a tweet that we got yesterday about, basically

00:37:07   the tweet was like, "Why did Twitter make the API in the first place?

00:37:11   just set the stage for the showdown.

00:37:14   And it's, like that's a really interesting idea and Twitter was an API first because

00:37:21   that's what internet companies do.

00:37:24   Like Twitter would not be, would not have enjoyed the quick rate of success that it

00:37:29   had if it weren't for a third party app.

00:37:32   Because we don't even, Twitter didn't even have a first party app until much much later

00:37:36   until they bought Tweety and rebranded it.

00:37:39   And you know, App.net followed the same course.

00:37:42   They had an API and a website and they let people build apps on top of it.

00:37:47   Some great apps came out of that space.

00:37:51   Where Twitter is now is they're trying to reel that back in and say, "No, no, the API

00:37:57   is sort of not what we want to do.

00:37:59   Everybody wants to be in the first party app."

00:38:03   That's where that whole explosion that happened on this show last week stems from that transition.

00:38:09   And I think that transition is inevitable on social networks.

00:38:14   I think Facebook is the notable exception that Facebook was a website and then they

00:38:20   eventually had mobile apps.

00:38:22   But Facebook really never had a full fee.

00:38:25   You couldn't write a Facebook client.

00:38:28   You could interact with Facebook in certain ways, but you couldn't build a full-fledged

00:38:31   client because their product was not the API.

00:38:34   Their product was the website first.

00:38:37   And I think, and I think, so I think Myke.net or whatever this fanciful social network.

00:38:43   Totally what you should call it.

00:38:44   Yeah, Myke.net.

00:38:46   Like that friction point, like that friction point always has to be answered with web services.

00:38:52   Do you do an API or do you do a product?

00:38:54   Because an API ultimately is not a product.

00:38:57   It can serve as a product for a little while, but what it's going to become is a gateway

00:39:01   for people to take control of what you think your product should be.

00:39:06   That's exactly what happened with Twitter.

00:39:07   It's why people are freaking out about it now.

00:39:11   And so this idea of what does a future social network, what does that look like?

00:39:20   Anything where a single company controls the API has the potential to fall into the quagmire

00:39:28   that is Twitter today.

00:39:29   You look at things like tent.is, these decentralized social networks, or even email, which is maybe

00:39:38   perhaps the first decentralized, well definitely not the first, but a decentralized social

00:39:43   network.

00:39:44   You know, bulletin boards back in the day, anyone could sign up for any bulletin board,

00:39:48   you could run your own bulletin board.

00:39:51   Those are more flexible because you can do whatever you want, but the technical debt

00:39:58   or the technical limitations are higher.

00:40:01   Twitter's really easy, Facebook is really easy.

00:40:03   You go on a website and you sign up, right?

00:40:05   All of us have done it, all of our parents have done it,

00:40:07   not a big deal.

00:40:08   But you look at something that's decentralized

00:40:10   that you have to find a server and join,

00:40:12   there might be username issues or it's messy.

00:40:16   That's ultimately better, perhaps, but more complicated

00:40:19   and therefore less likely to succeed.

00:40:21   - That was pretty sweet. - Can I share my thoughts?

00:40:25   - You can. - Please.

00:40:26   This is going to upset you both.

00:40:30   So I guess we need to have a talk about how

00:40:32   normal people perceive software, especially

00:40:34   this kind of social software that most people want

00:40:36   to use in the world.

00:40:37   So I'm just going to say that most people don't care

00:40:39   about open source and decentralization of software.

00:40:43   They couldn't care less about APIs using different apps.

00:40:45   They just want a free service that

00:40:47   lets them sign up with a username and a password

00:40:50   and a mobile app, and that's it.

00:40:52   They don't care about, oh, is this social network

00:40:55   decentralized? Does it let me set up my API? Does it let me use apps for multiple developers?

00:41:01   They don't care. And I think that the success of Facebook and Twitter and other, I guess,

00:41:07   many, many other products such as Internet Explorer or Google Chrome, or I'm trying to

00:41:13   think of any other popular app, Skype, Spotify, they show that people don't care about the

00:41:20   political fairness of software in this way. The idea of a social network that is decentralized

00:41:28   and that has a stable and fair API is just a nerd fantasy. And that's appealing to us

00:41:36   because it sounds fair and technically intriguing to us, but people don't care about this stuff.

00:41:45   And I believe that with the current Facebook and Twitter, we are kind of close to the perfect

00:41:51   social network that people want in the world.

00:41:54   I think that, I mean, Facebook is now 10 years old, I guess, and Twitter is what, like, eight

00:42:00   years old.

00:42:02   The fact that new services haven't been able to come around and replace them, I think it

00:42:07   kind of shows that the ideas behind Facebook and Twitter are solid, you know?

00:42:12   And maybe there's a bit of contamination between both, because Facebook wants to be more like

00:42:16   Twitter, and Twitter wants to be a little more like Facebook.

00:42:20   But still, I think that they still have plenty of room to improve and discover, like, release

00:42:27   new features, Facebook and Twitter.

00:42:29   I honestly don't see how, at this point, a new player could come around with a revolutionary

00:42:36   idea or feature and convince the entire planet to switch.

00:42:41   That said, I'm not saying that 10 or 20 years from now there won't be another Facebook or

00:42:47   Twitter or whatever.

00:42:49   I'm just saying that today, to me especially, they seem to be doing just fine because people

00:42:58   don't want more, I guess, from Facebook and Twitter.

00:43:04   And if anything, look at all these new messaging apps that millions of people use, WhatsApp

00:43:11   and Line and iMessage. None of these apps, which can be considered social networks in

00:43:18   a way, they don't have decentralization, they don't have an API. Not even Apple, who promised

00:43:25   to make iMessage an open standard. So this is just, you know, we want the perfect

00:43:32   It's like one of those videos that you find on YouTube about the perfect smartphone

00:43:36   And it's like just a bunch of features taken from all the popular smartphones

00:43:40   So I want the body of an HTC and I want the camera of an iPhone and I want the GPU of another Android phone

00:43:45   That's just a fantasy that will never happen or be practical in practice

00:43:48   Practical in practice nice nice teaching. Um

00:43:51   so for me

00:43:54   for me

00:43:56   If I had to to pick between Twitter and Facebook

00:44:00   because come on, Google+ really.

00:44:02   Twitter and Facebook, I would say Twitter is closer to my taste and

00:44:07   But there'll still be improvements that I would like to see in Twitter

00:44:13   I totally agree with Myke when you mention the photos

00:44:16   Especially when it comes to the quality of photos and the fact that you can have these basic effects and filters

00:44:25   But they're not really serious filters or effects.

00:44:30   It feels like a plug-in into the Twitter app that's not really part of the core experience.

00:44:37   So I totally agree with the photos.

00:44:39   I also think that Twitter should find new ways to, like, if I'm not interested in American

00:44:47   politics or sports or other events, there should be better ways to, I don't know how,

00:44:55   to modify the timeline when there's a major event that you care or do not care about.

00:45:00   Because I think that puts a lot of friction when you want to follow people on Twitter,

00:45:05   but you're not interested in a special topic or an event or something.

00:45:12   I'm glad to see that Twitter is launching new features and tools to block people, to

00:45:20   report people for harassment and that kind of stuff.

00:45:23   It's about time.

00:45:24   Yeah, it's about time. And I think as more people keep using and start using public social products,

00:45:32   it's extremely important to be able to let people control their experience and report other users.

00:45:39   I've thought about, like, and then I'll finish with this segment.

00:45:47   I thought about, like, for me one of the big things in the Twitter app is being able to

00:45:53   preview content in tweets.

00:45:59   So I'm thinking about the Twitter cards and the fact that they give you these previews

00:46:03   of articles on the web, they give you a preview of videos, SoundCloud, audio, iTunes previews

00:46:11   sometimes.

00:46:12   I think that ideally my perfect social network would have a much, much broader and more integrated

00:46:19   approach to this, like being able to extract information from links or other sources and

00:46:30   show me more context.

00:46:32   I don't want to just see a link in my timeline.

00:46:36   I want to be able to see what's inside that link without necessarily opening that link.

00:46:41   And Twitter is getting close to this idea with cards.

00:46:46   And also another product that does this pretty well is Slack, with all the integration and

00:46:51   the snippets that they put into the chat rooms.

00:46:53   So ideally my social network will be able to do this with any kind of external link

00:46:59   or resource or piece of content that is put into my timeline.

00:47:04   But really, I cannot think of any other...

00:47:07   Like I don't, I really don't think that a company like App.net or like our idea of a

00:47:17   social network that is kind of like Twitter but also more like App.net because of the

00:47:22   API and the monetization could ever happen practically because people, they don't want

00:47:29   to pay.

00:47:30   Because when you-- also, my last point--

00:47:33   because when you release an API and you allow just about

00:47:38   any developer to create apps, and if you really

00:47:43   want the entire population of Earth to use your service

00:47:47   and you make a first party app, eventually and inevitably,

00:47:52   you are going to compete with developers.

00:47:54   And at that point, because you're the platform owner,

00:47:57   you're going to put exclusive features into your app.

00:48:02   Because you want people to use your app,

00:48:04   because you want to make money.

00:48:06   Because I cannot think of any service,

00:48:08   and correct me if I'm wrong,

00:48:09   any popular public social service

00:48:12   that is free and open source and nobody profits.

00:48:16   And it's, everybody, billions of people use it.

00:48:19   And every day, like Twitter or Facebook or Google search

00:48:23   or Spotify or whatever, or iTunes,

00:48:26   All the major products are done with profit in mind, in some way.

00:48:31   And that's my problem.

00:48:32   The idea of an API decentralization is romantic.

00:48:36   It's awesome, it's beautiful, it just doesn't scale.

00:48:39   Well, you've not said anything I don't know.

00:48:42   My point was not about building--

00:48:43   Snap.

00:48:44   No, I mean, you were saying about the start

00:48:47   of your conversation was like, that won't work because that's

00:48:52   not what regular people want.

00:48:53   I know that.

00:48:55   my point was this is what I think is my perfect social network.

00:48:59   It's not the way to build one because it won't work, but that this is what I,

00:49:03   my perfect social network looks like that.

00:49:05   It's kind of App.net with a sprinkle on top effectively. But I mean,

00:49:10   I understand that it can't work and I know the reason that App.net failed was

00:49:14   because nobody moved and no one's going to pay.

00:49:17   And like that's just how these things are.

00:49:20   Yeah. But don't you, don't you wanna, don't you wanna have a more, um,

00:49:24   What's the name? Like something that will happen as a wish? Don't you want to hope for something real?

00:49:32   Well, I know I'm not going to get anything that's better than what we have, because the way that the...

00:49:38   It's like, you know, what am I going to get? Like, I'll just take Twitter as it is, please. Just leave it as it is.

00:49:44   You just want a non-profit, like, for good social network.

00:49:49   a pure wish because it's, you know, Ferrico's right, like there can't be something that

00:49:54   does the things that I want it to be because the business model doesn't work.

00:49:57   Well it does work at scale but it doesn't work to make people feel too rich and that's

00:50:01   what people care about.

00:50:02   I totally get it, it's just that if you think about it that way, that you know will never

00:50:07   happen but that's what you want, you'll be like sad and disappointed and I don't want

00:50:11   you to be sad.

00:50:12   I am sad already.

00:50:13   No, please don't be.

00:50:15   I am because I like it the way, you know, we're going back to last week, I like it the

00:50:19   it the way I like it and people are changing it. I think you should change your fantasy

00:50:23   so you'll be happier. Fantasy is... Adjust your dreams sir and you will be a happier

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00:52:37   It occurred to me that I've become the bad guy on this show lately.

00:52:41   You are the villain.

00:52:42   I don't like it.

00:52:43   You are the villain.

00:52:44   I don't like it.

00:52:45   You are the villain.

00:52:46   You are against platform development, you like restricted environments, and you believe

00:52:52   in selling people's information.

00:52:54   And that's why you're going to tell me that you're going to switch back to Chrome now,

00:52:57   right?

00:52:58   That's what this topic is about.

00:52:59   I'm a realist.

00:53:00   I'm a realist.

00:53:01   I know.

00:53:02   I just don't want to be disappointed like I'm going to be disappointed.

00:53:04   Yes, I want to live a happy life with no disappointments and I want to use it.

00:53:09   Stop it.

00:53:10   No, we're not going to stop.

00:53:11   There's nothing you can do.

00:53:12   I'm so sad.

00:53:13   Don't be sad.

00:53:14   Let's talk about browsers.

00:53:15   Steven used to be the sad guy because of all the dead mechs and stuff.

00:53:20   And now I'm the bad guy.

00:53:21   You're not a bad guy.

00:53:23   And you're the sad one.

00:53:24   I'm the sad guy.

00:53:25   Steven is happy now he has an iPad.

00:53:27   I mean, what has this show become?

00:53:29   I don't know.

00:53:30   Hey guys, let me tell you about my workflows

00:53:32   So like espresso lately I would like I would like to tell a story

00:53:39   Okay, so today

00:53:42   Earlier today I get a message from Federico and says hey, let's talk about browsers on the show. I said, hey, that's great

00:53:48   So no, you said cool and they cool. Yeah

00:53:52   So I seemed like yeah

00:53:55   I went about what browsers are used on OS X

00:53:57   and why that's true, and then I opened the topic

00:53:59   and it's browsers on iOS,

00:54:01   which I am not prepared for at all.

00:54:03   Just showing the difference between my world and yours.

00:54:05   - Well, okay, this came up because of a conversation

00:54:09   me and Federico had,

00:54:10   have been having over the last couple of days.

00:54:14   So maybe we can-- - Wow, who allowed that

00:54:16   to happen?

00:54:17   - We have secret messages.

00:54:18   - I message. - Whoa.

00:54:19   - This is where we plot our social network.

00:54:22   I think you can imagine how terrible it goes.

00:54:25   So basically Federico over the last couple of days has been highlighting on

00:54:28   Mac stories a couple of great apps that take advantage of reading the iOS Safari

00:54:34   DOM. It's this new thing, you know how Bing does the translation thing?

00:54:39   Well there's a great app called Stacks which just came out and which is a

00:54:43   currency converter and what it can do with its extension in Safari is it can

00:54:48   take all of the currencies or the monetary amounts, I can't think of the

00:54:53   word prices there you go all the prices of products on a website and it can do

00:54:59   in page conversion and replace them with your currency of choice which is

00:55:03   freaking amazing and there was another app as well right Federico what was the

00:55:08   other one you were telling me about or is it not out yet? Well I showed you the font

00:55:12   the font app. What font? So this is an app that can identify fonts on a web page so

00:55:20   he was saying to me hey would you like this app and I was like does it work

00:55:23   in Chrome? I said no. So this is what we wanted to talk about. So I am a Chrome user, I've

00:55:29   mentioned this before. I use Chrome on the desktop and I use Chrome on iOS because I

00:55:34   like to have the same browser because there are intrinsic benefits to that. I'll get into

00:55:38   that in a minute. Federico used to be a Chrome user, I know, and then he moved to Safari

00:55:43   a while ago. I'll put a link in the show notes to Federico's epic.

00:55:46   Very publicly moved to Safari.

00:55:49   So there's a great poster Federico wrote about his reasons for doing that.

00:55:54   And then as I had feared, as time has gone on into iOS 8, there are now a bunch of apps

00:56:00   which are extensions that take full support of the powerful stuff that can happen inside

00:56:07   of Safari only.

00:56:10   Chrome can use extensions, but it can't do the reading of the DOM.

00:56:14   I know I'm saying this incorrectly, I know I'm saying something wrong, but you get what

00:56:18   I'm trying to say.

00:56:19   - Sounds like a chapter of the Bible.

00:56:20   Honestly.

00:56:21   - Okay, I'll try DOM manipulation now instead,

00:56:25   'cause that also sounds interesting.

00:56:26   So, I mean, like Chrome can do a bunch of things,

00:56:29   like I can clip stuff to Evernote and all that sort of stuff,

00:56:32   but it can't do the reading and the whatever.

00:56:35   So Federico was saying to me, "Why do you use Chrome?"

00:56:39   And then we decided, "Let's talk about it on the show."

00:56:41   So, I'm a Chrome user on the desktop

00:56:45   because of Google Apps primarily.

00:56:48   I use Google Drive constantly.

00:56:52   I'm in it all day.

00:56:53   I have a whole different window set up with just full of tabs,

00:56:57   and it's just got-- it's just Sheets and Docs and Drive

00:57:02   and everything is all there.

00:57:03   Now, I know I could run Chrome separately for this

00:57:06   and have just Chrome as the Google Drive app that runs.

00:57:10   But if I'm going to use one browser,

00:57:12   I like a consistent experience.

00:57:14   So my history is saved, and all the tabs are saved,

00:57:17   and stuff like that.

00:57:18   because for example, quite frequently,

00:57:20   I'll click a link that's in a show document

00:57:22   and there'll be a page that's come up

00:57:23   and then I might wanna read it somewhere else later

00:57:25   or bring it up on the other machine

00:57:26   so everything's in sync, right?

00:57:28   'Cause sometimes I will have something on the MacBook Pro

00:57:31   and then I bring it up on the production machine

00:57:32   to play a city sound effects or something like that.

00:57:34   So if I'm gonna use any browser,

00:57:36   I just want it to be the same browser.

00:57:38   So some other stuff is I really like on iOS

00:57:42   the support that Google has for X-Callback URL.

00:57:46   So a frequent thing where this pops up is I'm in Mailbox,

00:57:50   and I go out to a link that's in an email,

00:57:55   and then I press the button on the top left,

00:57:57   and it closes a tab and takes me back to Mailbox.

00:57:59   Same with Tweetbot, there's a bunch of apps that do this.

00:58:02   Google Chrome will open directions for me in Google Maps,

00:58:06   which I also use.

00:58:07   So there is, Google has, in my opinion,

00:58:10   with third-party apps on iOS, a better relationship.

00:58:13   It shares information better,

00:58:15   it takes you around the OS a lot better,

00:58:17   because at Safari, you just end up in Safari,

00:58:20   and then you have to go back your own way to the app.

00:58:23   Also, Safari on iOS's tab view

00:58:26   makes me wanna stab my eyes out.

00:58:28   I think it's horrific.

00:58:29   I don't like the way it looks.

00:58:31   I don't like that it's just this endless spinning thing.

00:58:34   Sometimes I go to Safari, and I'm like,

00:58:38   page, page, page, I'm just spinning down

00:58:40   this roller decks of tabs.

00:58:42   I don't like it, it's just not to my taste.

00:58:44   So they are the reasons that I use Chrome.

00:58:47   Tell me why.

00:58:49   - Steven, what do you do?

00:58:50   Is Steven out of this conversation completely?

00:58:53   - Hey.

00:58:54   - Hi.

00:58:55   - Oh, are we still?

00:58:56   - Do you wanna talk about iOS stuff, man?

00:58:59   - I have a lot of things to say.

00:59:01   - Okay.

00:59:02   - First off,

00:59:02   I totally get that Google Apps is better in Chrome,

00:59:08   like it just is.

00:59:10   the web nerd in me is saddened by that,

00:59:15   because I think that your browser should be your choice

00:59:18   and not the choice of whatever.

00:59:21   Chrome could totally be the new Internet Explorer.

00:59:25   It's a little scary, especially from a development perspective.

00:59:28   There's a lot of stuff that Google's doing that only works

00:59:30   in Chrome or is Chrome first.

00:59:31   But we've talked about that.

00:59:32   I have Chrome-- actually, I don't anymore.

00:59:38   I used to have Chrome installed on iOS

00:59:40   when I used Chrome more heavily on the Mac.

00:59:43   But like Federico, I have gone back to Safari,

00:59:46   mainly because of the desktop, as you might imagine.

00:59:51   That Chrome is just really rough on battery life

00:59:54   on notebooks, and that's important to me.

00:59:56   I use my notebook a lot out and about during the day,

00:59:58   and Safari gives me sometimes hours of battery life back.

01:00:03   And so I don't love Safari in Yosemite.

01:00:07   I think that everything being centered is dumb.

01:00:09   I think that transparency is dumb.

01:00:11   I think that there's a lot of things in Safari

01:00:14   that aren't very good in Yosemite,

01:00:16   but it's fast and it's easy on battery.

01:00:18   And so I've moved back to it on the Mac.

01:00:23   And because of that, like I've always used Safari

01:00:26   as my primary browser on iOS, but using it on the Mac,

01:00:29   you get all that integration with iCloud tabs.

01:00:31   And it's just a tighter experience

01:00:37   if you're using the same browser everywhere.

01:00:39   And for me, I like the way the Safari does that better.

01:00:44   I actually agree with Stephen.

01:00:46   What a surprise.

01:00:47   Like entirely.

01:00:48   So I switched to--

01:00:53   I was a huge Google Chrome fan.

01:00:55   And then I switched to Safari for all the reasons

01:00:59   that I mentioned in the article.

01:01:00   I don't want to go over those again.

01:01:02   So let me just talk to you, Myke, about Safari.

01:01:05   Please do.

01:01:06   So my main reason is actually three reasons.

01:01:10   - My main reason is three reasons.

01:01:13   - Yes, it's a main reason in three parts.

01:01:16   - Okay.

01:01:18   - Okay, iCloud tabs, really nicely integrated

01:01:23   with the system.

01:01:24   I love the simplicity.

01:01:26   I don't have to do anything there.

01:01:28   They are one of the fastest and most reliable parts

01:01:33   of iCloud.

01:01:34   So congratulations to the engineer who wrote iCloud tabs.

01:01:39   The second spotlight suggestions in the Safari address bar on iOS and I guess also on Yosemite

01:01:44   so I don't know for sure.

01:01:47   I really like the suggestions for websites and maps directions.

01:01:53   I especially like spotlight suggestions for Wikipedia entries.

01:01:59   That's so helpful.

01:02:01   Yeah, exactly.

01:02:02   like the first, like I want to know when someone was born and like spotlight suggestions in

01:02:08   Safari like they give you the first like two sentences and most of the time those are enough.

01:02:15   I don't even have to open Wikipedia. Or if I want to, you know, Google someone's name,

01:02:22   I don't have to see Google because Safari takes me directly to Wikipedia if I want to

01:02:27   tap the page, which is handy.

01:02:29   And the third reason, obviously, is better support for extensions.

01:02:35   I want to be able to use all these new extensions that can interact with the contents of a web

01:02:41   page, because those are really practical for me.

01:02:47   Because I don't basically use my mic anymore, so that's not really a joke anymore, it's

01:02:51   the truth, I'm using my iPad, so, I mean, whatever, right?

01:02:56   And I want to be able to do stuff.

01:02:59   And on the Mac it's really easy if you want to say, print a page to PDF or like clip a

01:03:06   web page to Evernote or to Pinterest or other services that take content from web pages

01:03:13   and save it elsewhere.

01:03:15   And on iOS I need extensions for this.

01:03:18   And since iOS 8 there's been a great collection of new apps and extensions that integrate

01:03:27   only with Safari.

01:03:28   So this is a nice benefit for me because I can use stuff like PDF converter from Readdle

01:03:35   to generate PDFs.

01:03:37   The other extensions that you mentioned Myke, those are awesome.

01:03:41   So yeah, these are the main reasons.

01:03:43   There are other little touches that I like, like the bookmarks menu with the huge large

01:03:49   icons, the favicons, whatever, those are really handy.

01:03:53   And I like the Safari Reader feature, especially when I go to websites for music lyrics, which

01:04:01   tend to be awful and terrible, and my god, who designs those websites, I don't know.

01:04:07   With Safari Reader I can get a cleaner visualization of lyrics, which I like.

01:04:13   So I can sing better and I can practice my English and my songs.

01:04:19   So yeah, I really like Safari.

01:04:22   I think it's my favorite Apple app on iOS.

01:04:27   So I think they're all valid things and like, you know, the extensions thing is what makes

01:04:31   me sad.

01:04:32   But I think some of the things that I like about Chrome, they don't exist in Safari,

01:04:36   right?

01:04:37   So like that's, if I like those things as much as I think I do, which is, you know,

01:04:42   of the main reasons I use Chrome. I kind of have to deal with one thing or the

01:04:46   other. I either have to deal with the sub-par extension support because

01:04:52   there's nothing Google can do about some of it, or I have to kind of deal with

01:04:58   losing features from my web browser. And like some of them, like the X

01:05:04   callback URL stuff, it would frustrate me so much. Like just on a daily basis, like

01:05:12   to have it and because I rely on it which is funny that now what is

01:05:17   happening to this show I am now relying on.

01:05:24   Can I ask you a question Myke? So do you think that I mean because you do

01:05:30   most of your work at your Mac so you use all these desktop web apps in Chrome.

01:05:37   You know what Federico I actually don't know if that's true I do a lot like but

01:05:40   it's not most, it's still not most. I'm out and about a lot, I still do a significant

01:05:46   amount of work from my iPhone.

01:05:49   OK, so, if you didn't do a lot on the Mac or if Safari on the Mac had better support

01:05:59   for Google stuff, would you also use Chrome on iOS or would you switch to Safari?

01:06:05   I think I would be more inclined to try it.

01:06:08   If Apple came out today or Google came out today

01:06:12   and they were like, it's totally fixed guys, go crazy.

01:06:16   I would try Safari out and I'm more,

01:06:18   like I would give it more of a go.

01:06:21   - Yeah, I asked-- - Because that is

01:06:22   the main sticking point for me.

01:06:23   - Yeah. - It's like I need,

01:06:25   I need it to be perfect.

01:06:26   I can't have problems in it because basically

01:06:30   our business runs in Google Drive.

01:06:33   Like so many points rely on it.

01:06:36   - And on iOS you have native apps for Google stuff.

01:06:40   So you don't really need Chrome on iOS

01:06:42   for the web apps part that you have on the Mac.

01:06:46   - No, or I just wanna say just for the point of complaining,

01:06:49   still have not been updated for the sixes.

01:06:52   - Yeah, it's super gross.

01:06:54   - I do not understand what Google are doing.

01:06:56   Like I cannot fathom why it hasn't been done yet.

01:06:59   Like I can't, I don't get it.

01:07:01   I just don't get it.

01:07:02   - Yeah, that's weird.

01:07:03   It's like Spotify, still not updated for the iPhone 6.

01:07:06   - Like what is going on?

01:07:07   Like what is going on?

01:07:08   - I mean, I can understand like the first few weeks

01:07:11   you say, okay, yeah, developers didn't have the time.

01:07:14   I mean, it's kinda Christmas now.

01:07:16   - But you know, we're talking about a company

01:07:19   with the resources of Google.

01:07:21   - Google and Spotify.

01:07:22   - But like especially Google.

01:07:25   - Especially Google, yeah.

01:07:26   - It's like Apple not doing it.

01:07:28   - Yeah.

01:07:29   - You know?

01:07:30   It's insane anyway.

01:07:31   But yeah, I mean, you know, the Google Drive stuff is the biggest point.

01:07:36   But and then the other points are just like conveniences that I like about Chrome over Safari.

01:07:41   But yeah, there you go.

01:07:44   That's why.

01:07:44   Very nice.

01:07:47   This episode of Connected is also brought to you by Iconic.

01:07:51   I'd love to tell you about Iconic.

01:07:52   It's a very cool coffee table book.

01:07:54   It's a book all about Apple.

01:07:55   The background of it is that back in 2009, a guy named Jonathan Zuffi collected and

01:08:01   photographed pretty much every single Apple product ever made since 1976 and produced

01:08:07   this stunning coffee table book. It's called ICONIC, a photographic tribute to Apple innovation.

01:08:14   If there was ever a perfect gift for the Apple fan this holiday season, this is it. 350 beautifully

01:08:20   designed pages and hundreds of fantastic photos of basically every product Apple has ever

01:08:26   made. Every desktop, laptop, iDevice, printer, even the old gaming devices. It's all in here

01:08:32   and I'm going to guarantee that you're going to see some products that maybe you didn't even know

01:08:35   Apple made. I know that I felt that way when I looked through the book. I was like, "Oh,

01:08:39   here's some weird stuff in beige boxes that Steven probably knows all about," but I didn't.

01:08:44   There's an amazing chapter in there about prototypes. There's even a chapter all about

01:08:48   the packaging, which was one of my personal favorites about the book. It's to look through

01:08:52   and see all of the boxes because I'm one of those Apple box hoarders and I have

01:08:55   like just every box of every iPad every iPod I've ever owned and just you know

01:09:00   all that kind of stuff and I was flicking through the books and seeing

01:09:04   like I was able to point out the products from my history so like there's

01:09:06   my iPod and they even had a picture of a pink iPod mini in there right that was

01:09:10   the device that got me into this stuff looking through all the beautiful photos

01:09:14   of the newer stuff the new iPhones you know the iPods as it goes through

01:09:20   History.

01:09:31   Iconic also includes a forward by Steve Wozniak and hundreds of amazing quotes from other

01:09:35   Apple pundits.

01:09:36   It really is something.

01:09:37   The book comes in a few different versions, including a version in a bookcase that looks

01:09:41   like an old Apple floppy drive and a new Ultimate Edition that ships in a white clamshell of

01:09:46   an embedded glowing standby light that pulses like the old sleep indicators on the MacBook

01:09:50   Pros.

01:09:51   That's crazy.

01:09:52   I'm being totally serious.

01:09:53   It's really worth seeing.

01:09:55   If you go to iconicbook.com you can take a look at it.

01:09:58   You can order the classic edition at Amazon, but if you decide you want the classic plus,

01:10:01   special or ultimate editions, enter the code "connected" when you check out for a 10% discount.

01:10:06   That's iconicbook.com promo code "connected".

01:10:09   Thanks to iconic book for supporting this week's episode.

01:10:12   What about that, right?

01:10:14   It's seriously maybe the favorite book.

01:10:17   I have one and I gotta say it's full of macks but man is it a great, great book.

01:10:24   I want the glowing one man, that's what I want.

01:10:27   I wish I would have waited, I want something that's gonna glow at me.

01:10:32   Pretty cool right?

01:10:33   Pretty cool.

01:10:34   Pretty cool, yeah.

01:10:35   So today widgets.

01:10:37   Oh.

01:10:38   Apple, what are you doing?

01:10:41   Okay.

01:10:42   So, friend of the network and um...

01:10:46   Previous sponsor on last week's episode.

01:10:48   Previous sponsor and really, really friend to the world.

01:10:53   Greg Pierce, the developer of Drafts, issued some tweets on the Twitter social network

01:11:01   and basically it boils down to his Today extension which allowed you to create like new notes

01:11:08   or open the app directly from today.

01:11:12   Apparently Apple is not going to allow him to move forward with that.

01:11:15   And furthermore, basically the today view, from what he has been told, is for glanceable

01:11:24   information not for interaction.

01:11:26   And so he expects that Evernote's extension, which if you have installed, allows you to

01:11:33   create a new note or a new audio recording, really helpful stuff, not so much allowed

01:11:39   anymore apparently.

01:11:40   is not awesome because because because Apple has allowed this crazy people to

01:11:51   run up review happen and this is like a month after the peacock drama right so

01:11:56   yes yes peacock shipped with a basically a version of peacock that ran in today

01:12:00   and they say no you can't do it the developer says no I can't do it and then

01:12:07   the internet exploded and then Apple said oh no you can stay it's not a

01:12:11   problem and it's very back and forth and very not cool so yeah so Federico of out

01:12:18   of us I think you are using them kind of using today widgets the most like I

01:12:23   think Myke also uses yeah I use them a lot as well I don't use the drafts one

01:12:29   I don't know why I'm looking at it now and oh there's some buttons in here guys

01:12:35   "I cannot believe they've allowed these buttons!"

01:12:39   A couple of weeks ago, Nito was removed from the App Store.

01:12:45   And that one I kind of get, because it created a fake keyboard.

01:12:49   So it's like, "Okay guys, come on now. I understand what you're doing,

01:12:53   but how did you ever think that they were going to let you do this?

01:12:56   If Apple didn't let you have a keyboard, don't create a keyboard."

01:13:00   But the frustrating thing for them is they were allowed in the store,

01:13:04   and it didn't hide anything.

01:13:06   Like this is our app, our app creates a keyboard.

01:13:08   These are our screenshots that show the keyboard

01:13:11   in Notifications Center that we have created.

01:13:14   So where that app maybe wasn't the smartest thing to do,

01:13:19   it makes sense in a way maybe why Apple

01:13:23   should have had a problem with it initially.

01:13:25   But now we've got a scenario where there is,

01:13:30   basically this widget, it allows you to create

01:13:34   a new draft or create a new draft from what's on your clipboard?

01:13:40   Like, what is going on here?

01:13:43   Why is this a problem?

01:13:44   I don't understand.

01:13:45   What really concerns me is not just about the fact

01:13:52   that Apple approves and then rejects an app.

01:13:56   That concerns me.

01:13:57   But the worst part for me is that in both Peacock's and Draft's

01:14:01   case, these are apps that Apple featured on the App Store with banners and feature sections.

01:14:11   Like there was a person who put the app into a section to promote it to millions of people

01:14:17   and there's another person at Apple who says, "No, this app is, we don't like it."

01:14:22   So that shows a disconnect between review and editorial.

01:14:28   Which shouldn't happen, shouldn't be the case, especially after Mr. Cook fired poor Scott

01:14:35   Forstall to focus on collaboration and now Forstall is, you know, without a job and there's

01:14:41   no collaboration between teams in this specific case about the App Store.

01:14:46   Maybe he's building a special network.

01:14:48   Yeah, maybe.

01:14:50   Maybe it's behind the new... did you guys see the new wire thing?

01:14:53   Oh, I downloaded it.

01:14:55   I haven't tried it.

01:14:58   So yeah, it is weird. I can understand why Nito, with a fake keyboard, I kinda get why

01:15:06   that's kinda strange. I can understand why Apple may want to pull that kind of app. But

01:15:14   all these other apps that were previously approved, features promoted by Apple on Twitter,

01:15:23   Facebook page, on the App Store, and now they gotta remove these features? That's kinda

01:15:28   worrying. That's not a good sign. And you guys asked why is this happening? So I got

01:15:38   a bunch of theories on Twitter last night. Basically one of the leading theories seems

01:15:46   to be that because the glances on the upcoming Apple Watch will be similar to widgets, the

01:15:54   idea is that Apple wants some consistency between widgets on iOS and widgets on the

01:16:00   Apple Watch.

01:16:01   This is all a theory, so don't be upset at me.

01:16:06   I didn't come up with a theory.

01:16:07   The problem with that theory is then you allow Peacock back in.

01:16:09   Exactly.

01:16:10   And Peacock is like, it's the worst possible thing because it's just all buttons.

01:16:16   It's a sea of buttons, right?

01:16:18   Which is too big for like, oh.

01:16:23   - And it wouldn't make any sense anyway

01:16:24   to enforce this kind of consistency,

01:16:28   forced consistency between devices that are different.

01:16:31   I mean, of course I want to be able to have

01:16:33   a different widget and a different app on my iPad

01:16:36   because the screen is bigger

01:16:37   and I want to have different widgets on the iPhone

01:16:40   and I want to have glances on the Apple Watch.

01:16:42   I want to have software that makes sense

01:16:44   that is unique to each platform

01:16:46   And if anything remotely close to this theory

01:16:50   is the case at Apple, that's seriously misguided, I think.

01:16:53   And it doesn't make much sense.

01:16:55   And there are a bunch of other theories,

01:16:58   like that Apple internally, they decided

01:17:02   that the main problem is to either launch other apps.

01:17:06   Like, Steven, for instance, you develop an app called Old Mac.

01:17:11   And your app, Old Mac, is able to launch

01:17:13   other apps such as Twitter, Facebook and Google Chrome because it's an application launcher.

01:17:19   And now Apple goes to Steven and says "Hey Steven, you need to pull Alt Mac from the

01:17:22   App Store because it can launch other apps." And you're like "Okay, I won't launch any

01:17:26   other external app anymore. I will just launch my own app and that's fine." In Draft's case,

01:17:33   the problem is that not only does it launch Drafts, but it pre-populates a screen with

01:17:40   content, which is the clipboard, this is a theory that if Drafts was only able to launch the app and

01:17:47   restore its original state without adding any new content, without switching automatically to the

01:17:54   Drafts creation screen, that would be okay. But again, this is a theory and even if it's true,

01:17:59   doesn't make any practical sense to remove this functionality from an application on the App Store.

01:18:06   I honestly am coming up short with excuses.

01:18:10   It's confusing and Apple should have a clear policy, especially because developers are

01:18:15   investing time to create this stuff.

01:18:18   People like Greg and like James Thompson of Peacock, they spend time creating these widgets

01:18:25   and all of a sudden they're not okay anymore.

01:18:28   And there's all this back and forth and it's really not cool.

01:18:31   Right.

01:18:32   from Apple's own language in the developer documents being vague. I mean

01:18:36   in the iOS developer library they say you know you should

01:18:42   design a simple streamlined UI that highlights the information users are

01:18:46   interested in. In general it's a good idea to limit the number of interactive

01:18:49   items in a widget. Like that doesn't say what you can or can't do it just says

01:18:54   you know should and good idea and and in that vacuum of really clear boundaries

01:19:02   developers are gonna push the bar, right?

01:19:05   They're gonna push things forward

01:19:07   and try to make things more useful and more powerful

01:19:10   until someone at Apple, to Myke's point,

01:19:13   who maybe didn't even know this was a thing,

01:19:16   steps in and says, "Hey, you know what?

01:19:18   This is not really in the spirit of what we want."

01:19:21   And it not only is obviously damaging to developers,

01:19:25   like it's bad for the ecosystem.

01:19:27   Like iOS needs to be more powerful

01:19:31   and guys like Greg and his apps and extensions like Clips

01:19:36   where I can have sort of not really a multi clipboard

01:19:40   but have a place to easily shuttle things around.

01:19:43   Those make the iPhone and iPad more useful

01:19:47   and more powerful.

01:19:49   And Apple stripping that away limits

01:19:53   what their devices can do.

01:19:54   These devices are only as good as the software

01:19:56   that runs on them, period.

01:19:58   And to make that dumb down from what it could be,

01:20:03   like it's, you know, what was so great,

01:20:05   what is so great about today widgets

01:20:07   is they are completely optional, right?

01:20:09   Like if someone never knows that about drafts

01:20:12   or never knows about some of these widgets

01:20:14   that can do crazy things,

01:20:15   like Apple isn't polluting or complicating iOS itself,

01:20:20   but those tools and those apps should be available

01:20:23   for those of us who want to use them.

01:20:25   Because, you know, it's our device,

01:20:27   We can add widgets and we can add things and do crazy things.

01:20:30   And that's fine.

01:20:31   Give us the option is really a win-win for Apple.

01:20:34   Power users get what they want without Apple itself

01:20:39   cluttering up iOS.

01:20:41   And instead, they're saying, oh no, this doesn't work for us.

01:20:44   We don't want those CF buttons, so let's step back

01:20:49   on this rule.

01:20:50   And my guess is that this isn't over.

01:20:53   I think that either way, I think Apple will clear up

01:20:56   the language and they will either come down on this hard and say no you can't

01:21:00   do these things or they're gonna they're gonna do what Apple normally does in

01:21:04   the situation is after a while they'll say okay okay public you're right you

01:21:09   know we're gonna we're gonna allow this but sort of do it begrudgingly but it's

01:21:15   like another example like the longer we do this show and longer I write about

01:21:18   this like there's so many reasons why I don't want to be a developer and like

01:21:22   This is one of them.

01:21:23   Like, oh, I put all this time in this thing.

01:21:25   And now I've got to shelve it because a rule changed somewhere

01:21:29   with a middle manager at Apple.

01:21:31   My understanding is that, as you said, there's some people at Apple,

01:21:38   like high-level managers, who are philosophically

01:21:42   against the idea of using widgets as launchers of any kind

01:21:47   because they envisioned widgets as a display of a short bit of information.

01:21:55   But that also, if that's the case, at least what I heard, you know, if that's the case,

01:22:02   even the WWDC widget didn't really help to reinforce that kind of vision.

01:22:10   Because at WWDC they showed an eBay widget to bid on items.

01:22:14   It wasn't exactly a lightweight widget to display a short amount of information.

01:22:19   It was a full-on utility in Notification Center and it was not about notifications for today.

01:22:24   And it had a button in it!

01:22:27   So I think that Apple, they may be against the idea of people using launchers to replicate

01:22:34   the home screen experience.

01:22:35   They may be against the idea of using buttons and apps and widgets to launch other apps

01:22:42   and stuff, but I think it's too late to limit iOS 8 widgets to the functionality that Apple

01:22:50   may be envisioning. I think it is too late because this is not just about a bunch of

01:22:54   indie developers. This is not just about drafts or Pcalc or other apps from small companies

01:23:03   and small independent studios. Take a look at a widget something like Evernote, for instance,

01:23:08   which is full of buttons, it's able to create new notes from the today widget, and not only

01:23:15   new blank notes, but Evernote can also add a checkmark to a note as you tap a button

01:23:21   in Notification Center.

01:23:23   So Evernote is a big company and there are many other examples of big studios, big developers,

01:23:28   big name applications using widgets to launch and do stuff.

01:23:34   So it may be too late and of course Apple cannot do the thing where they say "ok, yeah

01:23:39   Evernote and Facebook and all these other big guys, they can and you guys cannot".

01:23:44   So I think we will see some clarification but I hope that they will just back off and

01:23:51   just allow this kind of functionality.

01:23:53   I think the problem is now they've let it get away from them and that's the problem.

01:24:03   the problem. Anywho, I mean it's out in the market right like if you come out of

01:24:09   the gate with iOS 8 and said hey today widgets like these are the very clear

01:24:13   boundaries of what you can do like then that's fine right if a developer steps

01:24:16   over that line and Apple smacks them down like okay I get that right like you

01:24:21   set the rule the developer broke the rule you don't allow it but when it's

01:24:25   already in the store and and not it's not like one or two things and it's the

01:24:29   Peacock thing in particular is pretty bad from like an Apple PR

01:24:34   perspective because they came out and allowed it and now just two weeks later

01:24:38   three weeks later they're saying oh you know I don't know if they've

01:24:42   rendered a verdict on Peacock now but like similar things aren't allowed and

01:24:47   that sort of like case-by-case developer by developer

01:24:52   reviewer by reviewer type approach to this is just yeah it's not good I mean

01:24:57   because it's it like you know draft is a big app.

01:25:01   Peacock is a huge app like these these are well-known developers and well and well-known

01:25:05   products and like I would not want to be a truly little little guy in this fight because

01:25:12   maybe you get an exemption from Apple for your app but if you don't know anyone at Apple

01:25:17   you can't convince them to do it like just just have the rules clearly defined and everybody

01:25:21   can play by the rules and like in that structure great freedom is granted and that they need

01:25:27   to get on the ball and clarify what they're gonna let people do.

01:25:33   Yeah, I think the problem is that Apple, honestly, the problem is that Apple doesn't have clear

01:25:39   guidelines on widgets.

01:25:41   They don't even know themselves what they want or what they are wrong on the apps.

01:25:45   So there's one guy who said, "Yeah, this is not cool."

01:25:47   And the other guy says, "Yeah, this is cool."

01:25:50   Which is troublesome.

01:25:52   And I wonder if...

01:25:53   It may be a problem.

01:25:54   Maybe they didn't foresee people using it like this.

01:25:57   I wonder sometimes, when Apple's developing new things, it's generally very small groups

01:26:05   of people.

01:26:06   I fear that Apple has a little bit of group think in some of this stuff, and they say,

01:26:12   "Oh, no."

01:26:13   They don't like the idea of peak algorithm drafts and today never even cross anyone's

01:26:18   mind.

01:26:19   that's happened, they're like, "Oh, crud."

01:26:22   You know, like, if it's a surprise to Apple

01:26:25   that people are trying to do this,

01:26:27   like, that's the worst case scenario in my mind,

01:26:29   because it's clear there's something wrong

01:26:31   with the way that they're going about

01:26:33   adding these features to their software.

01:26:35   But even if that's not the case,

01:26:39   it's definitely unsettling.

01:26:40   And like, another example of,

01:26:42   the App Store is so big, it's so popular,

01:26:45   these, this thing has a life beyond what Cupertino dreams up and they just don't manage it well

01:26:52   when this sort of thing happens and they need to be better at it.

01:26:57   Federico, to make us feel a little bit better, can you tell people where they find the show notes?

01:27:05   Are you sure about that? Yeah, because I've been thinking about, you know, I've been thinking

01:27:11   Like, what if I had to explain to my dad what show notes are?

01:27:18   What would I tell my parents about show notes?

01:27:22   Why do I spend time telling people where the show notes are when I cannot

01:27:28   describe show notes to the rest of the population of this planet?

01:27:33   So basically, every time we get together, me and Steven and Myke,

01:27:38   we assemble this collection of links, right?

01:27:43   We talk about stuff, and then to prove that the stuff we talk

01:27:46   about exists, we link to it.

01:27:50   And so basically, what you want to do

01:27:52   is you want to take your Sony VAIO notebook,

01:27:58   or I guess also an Acer or an HP--

01:28:03   Chrome book, maybe a Chromebook?

01:28:05   No, no, those are too fancy.

01:28:06   You know, we like, we roll old school with this.

01:28:11   You go to the web browser, I would say Mozilla, Firefox would be okay.

01:28:19   Because it's open source and it's got themes.

01:28:22   So you go to the web and you go to the website, which is relay.fm, and you type a slash, which

01:28:31   which is the little line character,

01:28:34   and you add "Connected", which is the name of the show that we do.

01:28:38   And then you add another slash character,

01:28:41   and you type 16 as a number.

01:28:44   - The numbers, yeah. - Because apparently,

01:28:47   we've been doing this new show on Real AFM for 16 episodes now.

01:28:52   And so when you go to the page,

01:28:55   you will find our photos as a confirmation

01:28:57   that we are actual people talking, you know?

01:29:00   This is not a computer-generated voice.

01:29:03   At least I hope that you two are humans as well.

01:29:07   And you will find the show notes, which are called notes.

01:29:11   They're called show notes, but actually it's just like a show list of links,

01:29:16   which is great. Sometimes there's a picture.

01:29:19   This is getting more difficult every time. I hate you, man.

01:29:27   Your dad is definitely confused now.

01:29:29   No, no, dad, please don't be confused.

01:29:31   I can come home and teach you how to browse the show notes.

01:29:35   So the show notes are, the show notes are an essential piece of the relay experience.

01:29:43   And you should be able to enjoy the full relay FM experience as Myke and Steven intended.

01:29:52   And me, I will just provide with the instructions

01:29:57   to get to the show notes.

01:29:59   And we promise as a network, right?

01:30:04   That we will always do,

01:30:06   we are renewing our commitment to the show notes.

01:30:09   - Yes, renew commitment.

01:30:10   - Right?

01:30:11   So yeah, that's how you find the show notes.

01:30:15   Which is a list of links,

01:30:16   but see, you know, you gotta click them

01:30:18   to view the source page in your web browser.

01:30:23   - Thanks, Teach.

01:30:24   I appreciate the explanation.

01:30:27   If you'd like to find us online,

01:30:29   other than those show notes,

01:30:30   which now you definitely know how to get to,

01:30:32   we're all on Twitter,

01:30:33   the perfect social network for all of us.

01:30:36   I am @imike, I am Y-K-E,

01:30:38   for Rico's at the DGVITICCI.

01:30:41   Steven is @ismh.

01:30:43   The show is @_ConnectedFM,

01:30:45   and it's the only account that's updated.

01:30:48   Well actually no, Jason does kind of,

01:30:50   he's taken the upgrade account

01:30:52   and does stuff with it, which is great.

01:30:53   - Yeah, I gotta fire the other hosts.

01:30:56   - It's pretty much my fault, completely.

01:30:58   But hey ho, it's all good.

01:31:01   - Tally ho.

01:31:03   - Steven writes at 512pixels.net,

01:31:05   Better Eco writes maxstories.net,

01:31:09   and I host many shows on Real AFM.

01:31:11   Thank you so much for listening,

01:31:14   especially if you listen this far.

01:31:16   Like if you go this far,

01:31:18   I'm very proud of you because you know I do this bit every week and if you know

01:31:22   you've clearly stayed to see if there's anything special at the end and

01:31:25   there is something special special for you Kyle thanks so much for listening

01:31:30   we'll be back next time bye bye.

01:31:34   Adios.

01:31:35   Adios.

01:31:36   Oh thanks to our sponsors too Linda, Hover, ICONic, we love you.

01:31:40   Awesome people.