13: Dig Up an App


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:07   Hello and welcome to episode 13 of Connected on Relay FM.

00:00:12   This episode of Connected is brought to you by Harry's, an exceptional shave at half the price,

00:00:17   igloo, an internet you'll actually like, and Squarespace. Start here, go anywhere.

00:00:23   My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by my colleague, Mr. Stephen Hackett.

00:00:28   Hey buddy.

00:00:29   How you doing, Steven?

00:00:30   It's good. It's good to be back.

00:00:31   And Mr. Federico Vittucci.

00:00:34   Hey, guys.

00:00:34   It sounded like I didn't think it was good for Steven to be back. He's like,

00:00:39   "It's good to be back," and I'm like, "Moving on."

00:00:41   You're like, "Eh, eh."

00:00:43   I mean, it might be good for you. It can't be for everyone.

00:00:46   I do have to say, so I listen to the show.

00:00:49   You are that listener then?

00:00:52   Yes. Just the one.

00:00:57   and I really have to say I really feel like my part of the show being the follow-up

00:01:05   was really awkward. It really fell down without me.

00:01:09   Oh and how much follow-up do you have this week?

00:01:10   We have two points.

00:01:14   Okay so about as much as we had last week.

00:01:16   The second one is really good.

00:01:16   So you're back with two pieces of follow-up.

00:01:18   I actually think I had more than that last week.

00:01:21   That's not really a comeback, Steven.

00:01:23   Well, you know, Federico, sometimes, sometimes you don't come back with a rock album.

00:01:28   Sometimes you come back with an EP of some soft songs.

00:01:31   And that's what I'm doing today.

00:01:32   Don't call that a comeback.

00:01:33   Follow up.

00:01:36   Please follow up.

00:01:38   I can't follow up cause it's about myself.

00:01:41   And someone wrote in all capital letters, explain yourself.

00:01:44   That was in there from last week.

00:01:46   Steven, why did you buy an iPad mini too?

00:01:50   Explain yourself.

00:01:52   Wow.

00:01:53   because you talked me out of an iPad Mini 3.

00:01:57   My wife's iPad 4 seemed really terrible and so I gave her my

00:02:02   Air and I went back to the iPad Mini. And I

00:02:05   realized that I really missed the size. So I've been

00:02:09   using it a good bit and I got the one with Verizon access

00:02:15   again because once you have LTE on an iPad you don't want to go back to a non-

00:02:19   LTE iPad. So yeah.

00:02:22   Yeah. Do you think that you are really enjoying it or you're just having like

00:02:27   that iPad honeymoon period that you always have whenever you change your iPad?

00:02:31   That's a good question. Did you know, Steven, that you can get work done on an iPad just like a Mac?

00:02:39   You can also write your verse if you want to.

00:02:44   Yeah, I can show you workflows if you want.

00:02:48   variety of my verse. I am an iOS power user, Steven. I've heard that. I've heard that rumor.

00:02:56   So tell us, Steven, what's your verse? Follow up. We have the best piece of follow up in the

00:03:04   history of all podcasting. If you look in the show notes, which Federico, where could the

00:03:11   the show notes be found? Yeah, see last week I had these instructions

00:03:20   for the show notes and it really, my goal was to tell people where to find the show

00:03:27   notes and as a result we got this nice piece of follow up so people can use your web browser.

00:03:37   You need to give enough web browser now so people could do this again.

00:03:41   Okay, so fine.

00:03:43   You can use either Opera or Classilla.

00:03:47   Classilla is a browser that's still being developed for Mac OS 9.

00:03:52   Oh, I know.

00:03:54   Yeah, see.

00:03:55   Actually, a new build of Classilla was released a couple of weeks ago.

00:04:00   How do you know about that?

00:04:01   I've never even heard about this.

00:04:02   That's the stuff that I just know.

00:04:04   I had a link in the newsletter because it was interesting.

00:04:08   So if you use Opera or Classilla, you can go to http colon double slash relay.fm slash

00:04:20   connected slash the numeral, which is 13.

00:04:26   Oh God, is it 13?

00:04:29   It is 13.

00:04:30   And you will find plenty of links and tidbits about Mac power users and iOS power users

00:04:38   and just in general show notes about this episode.

00:04:40   It's a different show.

00:04:42   I was on that show.

00:04:44   Myke is a Mac power user.

00:04:48   Everyone on this show...

00:04:49   Oh, no, not yet.

00:04:52   Wow.

00:04:53   So we had a listener send us five screenshots of our show notes in Netscape Navigator, and

00:04:59   I put them on the Relay blog.

00:05:01   And I have to say, it doesn't look that bad.

00:05:04   - I was really surprised.

00:05:07   It looks better than IE6.

00:05:09   So.

00:05:10   (laughing)

00:05:12   - So.

00:05:13   - Our site is basically unviewable in IE6 by the way.

00:05:15   - But. - Is it?

00:05:16   - Yeah. - I don't.

00:05:17   - Yeah, I don't care. - Ask me how much

00:05:18   I care about that.

00:05:18   - I do not care at all.

00:05:20   - I don't either.

00:05:21   - I guess if we wait just a couple of years,

00:05:25   These screenshots may as well pass as a flat design or some sort of minimal theme for the website.

00:05:34   It is a nice interface actually, the Netscape.

00:05:38   Have you guys ever used Netscape? I mean, Steven must have.

00:05:42   Steven must have, yes.

00:05:45   Yeah, it looks like a nice browser.

00:05:51   Isn't this on Windows? What is this? Mac OS? What is it, Stephen?

00:05:56   It's on Windows.

00:05:59   It's on Windows.

00:06:00   Or actually an SGI workstation. It's not really Windows.

00:06:04   What's a workstation?

00:06:06   It's like a Mac Pro.

00:06:07   What's an SGI?

00:06:09   So, yeah, you should go check that out. The link's in the show notes and in the chat room.

00:06:14   And that's the end of the follow-up.

00:06:16   Steven, can you explain to me what is happening in the United States of America around net neutrality right now?

00:06:23   Yes, please. I had the same request. I have no idea what is this, all this stuff about net neutrality,

00:06:30   and I just don't understand, I'm dumb, I don't follow politics, so please explain to us.

00:06:35   Okay, so do you guys, for you guys or for people who don't know, like net neutrality is the idea that internet traffic,

00:06:45   So, websites, podcasts, video, they should be treated equally.

00:06:51   They should be able to travel at the same speed no matter where they come from.

00:06:59   So a simple example is Netflix versus YouTube.

00:07:02   So Netflix videos should stream as smoothly on the same connection as a YouTube video.

00:07:07   Right?

00:07:08   Makes sense to me.

00:07:09   So the way to think about it, and you see terms of like, is it a public utility?

00:07:16   The idea is sort of that you're electric company, so I pay my electric company however much

00:07:22   I pay them a month, and I get to use that electricity however I want to.

00:07:27   So I can turn all the lamps on in my house all the time, or I can, you know, replace

00:07:34   the lamps with, you know, like electric powered flame throwers.

00:07:38   Like it doesn't matter, right?

00:07:39   It comes to the wall, it comes to my meter, I pay for it, and they don't get a say in

00:07:43   how I use it.

00:07:44   So net neutrality is kind of that idea of, you know, the Internet should be open and

00:07:52   traffic should be treated equally and fairly regardless of where it comes from.

00:08:01   And so sort of the issue that comes up is that ISPs, Internet Service Providers like

00:08:09   Comcast or AT&T or Verizon, they have gotten into the content creation business.

00:08:15   So Comcast owns NBC, which is a big television network here.

00:08:21   So the idea is, oh god, sorry, I'm closing the chat room.

00:08:31   So the idea is, or the problem is that Comcast could say, "Hey, you know what?

00:08:37   The streaming site we made for NBC, that's going to stream really well, but Netflix,

00:08:44   we're going to have to charge them more for their traffic, their rate of information as

00:08:50   it flows through our pipes that it gets the same treatment. They actually do

00:08:54   that? There have been examples, maybe Myke if you can dig up the link for the

00:09:01   show notes, this happened earlier this year with Netflix actually and if you

00:09:06   guys remember the article it was like Netflix's PR spin was like we have

00:09:10   partnered with Comcast for like you know high-speed something something is

00:09:17   something but like very clearly basically these ISPs can hold content

00:09:21   creators hostage and say you know what you need to pay our tax if you want to

00:09:25   be on what they call the fast lane so that's another sort of jargon you hear

00:09:30   in this of hey you know we want to create fast lanes on the internet well

00:09:37   really that's not really what they're doing they're really they're creating

00:09:39   slow lanes as you guys know probably broadband speed in the United States is

00:09:46   really pretty cruddy for a lot of people and so it's not like Comcast is saying

00:09:50   "hey if we can do this then we can build faster networks" like they're promising

00:09:56   that in some places but it's not really what they what they've been doing what

00:09:59   they want to do and so this has been sort of a deal in the United States for

00:10:04   a couple of years now as there's been some legislation around it and basically

00:10:10   it boils down to the fact that the internet should be considered a public

00:10:16   utility in a lot of people's minds and so this week President Obama issued a

00:10:20   statement urging the FCC which is the government agency that oversees things

00:10:25   like cell phone carriers, cable providers, internet providers saying that hey you

00:10:30   know what like you should treat this as a public utility and there should be

00:10:35   regulation in place so Verizon can't say to Rackspace "hey we don't we're not

00:10:42   gonna serve your stuff unless you pay us some sort of service fee" and so it blew

00:10:48   up right. President Obama comes out makes a statement and Obama has no power over

00:10:54   the FCC is an independent sort of agency within the federal government and that

00:11:00   was in the news today, the guy who runs the FCC is problematic and we'll

00:11:08   get to that. So yeah, so that's kind of why it's back in the news, because the

00:11:12   White House, President Obama came out and said "hey you know what, this should be

00:11:16   this should be a thing". The funny thing like, is in the in the European

00:11:23   Union there is already an neutrality law, it was done and dusted like a year ago.

00:11:29   Yeah, so it's important. I wrote a thing the other day, maybe yesterday, about why

00:11:36   this is important. So it's not just, "Oh, I want my Netflix to be fast." It

00:11:42   affects everyone. So let's take Relay FM, for example, the business that Myke, you

00:11:47   and I own. Our internet business exists on the internet because we do

00:11:54   internet things. Without the internet, Relay does not exist. Just period,

00:11:57   Right? Like the web, our business is a website and a collection of audio files.

00:12:01   That's all it is. And if net neutrality were to,

00:12:06   uh, if those protections were not enacted,

00:12:09   basically what can happen is Comcast will keep picking on them.

00:12:15   They deserve to be picked on. It's like, Hey, we, um, you know,

00:12:19   we don't like Lipsin where we host our audio files.

00:12:22   And if Lipsin can't play ball with Comcast,

00:12:25   then maybe our shows are really slow to download for people on Comcast, or maybe they're

00:12:29   unavailable completely, and that's a big problem, right? Because we are a

00:12:34   company, like, we're in business to make money and to create content that people enjoy, and

00:12:39   we are dependent on the internet being there, just like every business is dependent on electricity coming through the wall. It's the exact same thing.

00:12:45   And it's scary, right? It's not just like, "Oh, you guys have a fancy podcast network."

00:12:50   Like I work at an agency, we build websites for a living.

00:12:53   Like it could put our business in jeopardy

00:12:56   if like sort of the worst case scenario were to play out.

00:13:01   - You gotta send Comcast a check.

00:13:05   - Right, and like what if you can't do that?

00:13:07   - Because Myke.

00:13:08   - Yeah, yeah, it's not good, not good.

00:13:11   And so it's really scary and it's not,

00:13:17   like this is not like doom and gloom,

00:13:20   oh this could happen like internet service providers are evil companies

00:13:23   like there's no way around it. There's some links to the Verge articles

00:13:26   over the last year or so with these sort of like traffic deals between Netflix

00:13:32   and these ISPs and Netflix takes the brunt of it right because you know

00:13:36   Netflix is a huge percent of the traffic in the United States and obviously video

00:13:40   is very very large amount of data to move and so it's sort of an easy target.

00:13:45   Does that kind of make sense?

00:13:50   That's a pretty rough explanation of what's going on.

00:13:52   I have a question, Steven.

00:13:56   So a few months ago, my Italian carrier, which is Telecom Italy, had this promotion that

00:14:07   for 2 euros, I guess, like a one-time fee, it allowed me to use the Twitter and Facebook

00:14:17   apps without consuming any 3G traffic.

00:14:22   As long as I used the official Twitter and Facebook apps, so not Facebook paper or not

00:14:27   third-party Twitter clients, just the Facebook and Twitter apps, I wouldn't consume any data.

00:14:33   Is that wrong?

00:14:34   Because it was a pretty good deal for me, honestly.

00:14:37   So that's kind of the flip side right like you have the sort of the hellscape scenario of

00:14:42   You can't see Netflix or you can't download relay shows on Comcast, but you can on Verizon

00:14:48   That's the other side of it right is that there are there's the potential for partnerships

00:14:53   Between ISPs or you know cell phone carriers

00:14:57   Which really are mobile ISPs with like messaging services or websites?

00:15:02   And that's sort of like the other side of it is there is money to be made there

00:15:05   T-Mobile does it in the US with I think with RDO and maybe Spotify as well that if you stream

00:15:11   in that right Myke if you stream music or something with T-Mobile it doesn't count against your data.

00:15:17   I think yeah one of the services.

00:15:20   Yeah I feel like we talked we talked about that at some point. So it's it's like that is good like

00:15:27   it's good for the consumer and these businesses are making a lot of money that way and that's

00:15:30   that's what Comcast and Verizon are saying right like hey we need the freedom to make these deals

00:15:34   like but it's really not like if there's upside to that I think I could argue

00:15:44   that there is like it's not a big enough upside to to open up the risk of ISPs

00:15:50   going sort of crazy with power. Do mobile do loads like Pandora, Rhapsody, Spotify,

00:15:57   slack like this loads iTunes radio not beats which is weird but loads. So this

00:16:04   was all the news last couple days the Washington Post had an article so Tom

00:16:09   Wheeler is the guy in charge of the FCC the Federal Communications Commission and

00:16:14   he has come out and said look the FCC we're an independent agency like we are

00:16:20   you know we don't answer to the White House this is our decision and I respect

00:16:26   that. But the reality is like Tom Wheeler is a terrible person to be in charge of the FCC.

00:16:32   There's a link in the show notes, MG Siegler's written on Medium today actually. They're like,

00:16:39   Tom Wheeler was a lobbyist for telco companies for years.

00:16:46   Okay, can you explain this quickly to me? What's a lobbyist?

00:16:50   Okay, so we'll take a relay again. So say that Myke and I had some stake in some legislation. So

00:16:55   say that the US government was going to put a tax on podcasts, whatever, Myke and I

00:17:03   could hire lobbyists and say "hey, we need your help to persuade members of

00:17:09   Congress that this is a bad idea." Jesus, is that legal in the States? Totally

00:17:14   legal. It happens everywhere Federico. Oh yeah? Yeah yeah. I'm not aware of lobbying. In Italy they do it with baseball bats.

00:17:25   That's because it's done with violence in Italy. They probably do it in Berlusconi's house, I don't know.

00:17:30   Right, and so you have this weird tension as Slade401 says in the chat room that, like, okay, Obama

00:17:36   Obama hired Wheeler for this job, which was a huge cluster, not a good hire.

00:17:44   Obama could fire him, but then he has to go to Congress to approve his replacement.

00:17:47   The Congress is, as of a couple days ago, now controlled by the opposite party, and

00:17:53   he would never get anybody through.

00:17:57   It's this super...

00:18:00   Obama says, "Hey, we should have net neutrality," but he can't make it happen.

00:18:05   He doesn't control Congress.

00:18:07   The guy he hired at the FCC, like in the Washington Post,

00:18:10   has quotes of like, "We gotta split the baby.

00:18:12   "We can't have, there's gotta be some sort of middle ground."

00:18:17   And there's no upside in that.

00:18:19   There's no upside in it for small businesses.

00:18:21   There's no upside in it for individuals.

00:18:23   It's only upside for internet service providers,

00:18:26   for these huge, almost monopoly-sized companies

00:18:31   that are squeezing all the money they can

00:18:35   of their services. So what do you mean when you say they persuade people in

00:18:42   Washington to pass or reject legislation? Do they like, do they offer

00:18:48   dinners or...? They pay them. Okay. So pretty much, but there's legal ways that they

00:18:55   can be bribed, right? They can give political contributions, or they can just

00:19:00   give cash and nobody else knows about it.

00:19:02   Or checks.

00:19:03   Yeah.

00:19:04   So a good example of this--

00:19:06   I'm trying to find the link-- but in Tennessee

00:19:09   and a bunch of other states, there have been votes up or down about

00:19:12   municipal internet service providers.

00:19:14   So the city of Chattanooga in Tennessee,

00:19:16   where Bradley Chambers lives, they have basically city-funded,

00:19:23   city-run internet.

00:19:25   And it's like gigabit up and down.

00:19:27   It's crazy fast.

00:19:30   And there's been opposition to that

00:19:34   at like the state level of government,

00:19:38   which is just complete BS.

00:19:39   And a lot of those people have taken,

00:19:44   if you look at their records of,

00:19:47   hey, I'm running for a campaign, I have a campaign,

00:19:51   and you look at their donor list,

00:19:52   it's their net service providers, right?

00:19:54   It's like you have Comcast helping you pay for your campaign and then they scratch your

00:19:59   back, you have to scratch theirs by snuffing out municipal internet service providers or

00:20:03   by saying, "Hey, you know what?

00:20:04   Net neutrality is terrible."

00:20:05   It's really shady.

00:20:07   It's the work.

00:20:09   It's the number one ... I really believe the massive amounts of capital that are infused

00:20:16   into the state and federal government, that is what powers so many of these bad decisions.

00:20:23   and like, I'm going to tread lightly, I don't want to turn this into more political than it is,

00:20:28   but like Senator Ted Cruz is like, it's the Obamacare for the internet. I was like,

00:20:33   A, that's the stupidest thing anyone has ever said.

00:20:35   Oh yeah, that guy sounds dumb.

00:20:37   He is. But there's like, wrapped up in all of this is that there is a political system in the United

00:20:45   States that is fueled by basically hatred, right? Like two sides don't work together.

00:20:50   And like, we're not gonna fix that

00:20:52   on our little podcast here, so.

00:20:54   But it's all wrapped up in this, right?

00:20:56   Like that you have this very serious legislation issue

00:21:01   that is muddied by the fact that like,

00:21:06   the president really can't make the decision.

00:21:08   The guy he hired was a bad hire.

00:21:11   And you have a Congress controlled by the opposite party

00:21:15   that like, he can't go to to get things done.

00:21:18   So like, I really don't know if,

00:21:21   what's gonna happen with it.

00:21:23   - I feel sorry for you guys.

00:21:26   - Yeah, are you sure you don't wanna come to Italy, Steven?

00:21:30   - Man, your balcony looks really nice.

00:21:33   - Yeah, I mean, it's really huge.

00:21:35   - Could I bring my three children and my wife?

00:21:37   - Yeah, I mean, you can help me with testing apps,

00:21:42   doing workflows.

00:21:44   - This is just like one of those things

00:21:45   where the unfairness--

00:21:46   Are you making me your butler?

00:21:48   Yeah.

00:21:49   A blogging butler?

00:21:50   No.

00:21:51   No?

00:21:52   This is just one of those things to me where it's like the unfairness of it to the average

00:21:55   person just makes it seem like it shouldn't happen.

00:21:59   Like it couldn't happen, but yet it's happening.

00:22:01   Right.

00:22:02   Like it just feels like how is this, obviously it's not, but how is this right?

00:22:07   Like how is this okay?

00:22:08   And like just there's so many things that are screwed up.

00:22:11   Like, one, I question why Obama's doing it, or why he's doing it now.

00:22:18   I mean, I know it's not a reelection thing for him, right, because he's only second term

00:22:21   now, isn't he?

00:22:22   Yeah, he's done.

00:22:23   So I don't even get why he's doing it.

00:22:26   And/or if he felt this way, why didn't he do it sooner, when he maybe could have affected

00:22:30   some sort of change, right?

00:22:31   So when he could have changed the leader of the FCC.

00:22:34   Which also doesn't make any sense.

00:22:36   Like, how has he got no say in it, but yet he can appoint someone?

00:22:39   there's so many things that are wrong I don't get it and and I shudder to think

00:22:45   what our email inbox is gonna look like over the next couple of days. Yeah I

00:22:49   think I think people who listen to pod like overriding this for over the last

00:22:55   couple days like I've only gotten like hey you're right like because it is it's

00:23:05   It's so basic, there's such a huge, obvious answer to this.

00:23:13   And it blows my mind that people think that it's not that way.

00:23:19   The biggest revelation for me in listening to you, Steven, has been that American politics

00:23:24   really seems like a house of cards.

00:23:27   Yes, yes, it is.

00:23:30   That's what American politics is.

00:23:32   It seems really accurate.

00:23:33   It's the House of Comcast, is what it is.

00:23:37   Before people say yes, it was based on a UK show, but it's very different.

00:23:41   Oh yeah, like the fake one, like the fake House of Cards.

00:23:45   Well, that was the real one.

00:23:48   Yes.

00:23:49   It's the British one, like, set in the Parliament and there's people with wigs.

00:23:56   People don't wear wigs in Parliament, but yes, they wear wigs in the courtroom.

00:24:01   Oh, sorry.

00:24:03   But yeah, yeah, the fake house of gods.

00:24:07   (laughing)

00:24:09   Let's take a break and thank our first sponsor

00:24:11   for this week's show and that is our friends

00:24:13   over at igloo who make an internet you'll actually like.

00:24:16   If you've ever used SharePoint or have an internet

00:24:19   that feels like it was built in the 90s,

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00:24:24   Not only will it be seldom used

00:24:26   because nobody wants to use it,

00:24:28   it's also gonna be out of date because of that too.

00:24:31   I can pretty much bet that there's gonna be no love

00:24:33   there because people just don't want to use an intranet that is boring and old and rickety.

00:24:38   Well, igloo knows that connecting staff in meaningful ways make your office a more fun

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00:24:46   The starting point for creating an engaging intranet is design. This is more than just

00:24:52   tacking your logo into the top left corner or changing the colors, even though you can't

00:24:55   do all of those things. The design of an intranet needs to be a reflection of your company in the

00:24:59   the way it looks but also in the way it works.

00:25:02   With igloo they have a system of apps that are all widgets.

00:25:06   They're drag and drop so you can set up pages really simply.

00:25:09   You can configure them to work exactly as you want for certain teams and you're able

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00:25:21   Some of these apps include Twitter like micro blogs, task management, you can have calendars,

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00:25:34   These are all built with igloos apps.

00:25:36   This can take an internet from just being purely content driven, like here are the seven

00:25:41   things you need to read, to a webpage, to a community that feels like things are active,

00:25:48   there are activity feeds and conversations at the center of it.

00:25:51   There's also a WYSIWYG editor, so everything in IGLOO, wherever people are putting content

00:25:56   in, there's a WYSIWYG editor which you can give people permissions to, so they can go

00:25:59   in and write whatever they want and they can change the rich text controls and that sort

00:26:04   of stuff.

00:26:05   You can build your own widgets as well with the custom widget builder.

00:26:08   Everything is customizable in IGLOO.

00:26:10   You have the ability to add HTML, CSS, and JavaScript globally across the entire site,

00:26:15   across the entire team space, or even on single pages or in the smaller communities, which

00:26:19   which enables you to basically mirror the way that your company works on your intranet

00:26:24   as well.

00:26:25   Like if the finance team don't like to talk to each other, maybe they don't get the microblog

00:26:29   functionality.

00:26:30   But if the IT team have a softball team that they have, then maybe they need a shared calendar.

00:26:37   You know, you get where I'm going with this.

00:26:39   igloo is super awesome.

00:26:40   It's free to use with teams of up to 10 people.

00:26:45   And you can sign up right now at igloosoftware.com/connected.

00:26:50   Thank you so much to igloo for the continued support of this show.

00:26:54   We love you igloo.

00:26:56   So what's next?

00:26:59   YouTube.

00:27:00   Yes.

00:27:01   You heard of this website for videos Myke?

00:27:05   I came across it in 2006 when a guy called Chad Hurley, no relation, sold it to YouTube

00:27:11   along with Steve Chen.

00:27:13   Steve Chen and Chad Early.

00:27:14   That's where I first came across it.

00:27:16   No relation to me, the other guy.

00:27:18   Steve.

00:27:19   Yeah.

00:27:20   Steven Chen.

00:27:21   Yeah.

00:27:22   Mm-hmm.

00:27:23   Mm-hmm.

00:27:24   I will...

00:27:25   Chen.

00:27:27   So what is this?

00:27:28   What is happening on YouTube?

00:27:29   Okay, so Myke, do you want to explain, because you're more, I guess, knowledgeable about

00:27:35   Google than me?

00:27:36   Okay.

00:27:37   I thought he was going to say about this.

00:27:38   He'll say, "We've read the same article."

00:27:40   So I just saw this earlier today on The Verge and just thought it should be brought up because

00:27:44   it's this music streaming service which is along with photos.

00:27:47   Isn't there a photos thing that we need to talk about at some point?

00:27:50   We did that last week.

00:27:51   This week one.

00:27:52   Oh no no no.

00:27:53   That's next week.

00:27:54   Okay, that's next week.

00:27:55   Next week.

00:27:58   So basically YouTube today have announced a music streaming service but also just a

00:28:04   bigger push into music in general.

00:28:06   So this comes in a couple of different ways.

00:28:08   So the YouTube music functionality, so basically what Google and YouTube are doing, they are

00:28:15   trying to get more music into YouTube and they're trying to categorize it a bit better.

00:28:20   They're setting up artist pages with discographies, they're presenting all of the videos they

00:28:25   have on a certain album and/or completing them and putting all that sort of stuff together.

00:28:30   And they're also in the apps on iOS and Android, there's now going to be a music tab, it's

00:28:35   it's gonna be home and music, right?

00:28:36   So it's gonna be split into those two things.

00:28:38   So that's one part of it, so just YouTube

00:28:40   trying to be more music focused.

00:28:42   But they're also setting something up called MusicKey.

00:28:45   It's a paid service, it's $7.99 a month,

00:28:48   currently invite only, and what this does is

00:28:51   it removes ads from videos that you watch on YouTube,

00:28:54   only music videos, $7.99 a month,

00:28:56   music videos will be removed, and obviously as well,

00:29:00   this is gonna be only the official music videos,

00:29:02   but if you don't have the ads,

00:29:03   then you may as well watch the official ones,

00:29:04   whatever. There's going to be a subscription included to the rebranded

00:29:10   today Google Play Music so it's no longer Google Play Musical Access it's

00:29:13   just Google Play Music. It's launching in the US and in six EU countries I've yet

00:29:19   to find out which ones. So yeah I think that's it's pretty interesting. I'm

00:29:26   I think fine you know more music services great I like that it's more

00:29:31   than just a music streaming service obviously they've got the Google Play

00:29:33   music stuff which is the streaming service but the fact that you can watch

00:29:37   the the videos I mean I'm not really like a big music video guy but I guess

00:29:41   for people that are this is quite an interesting entrant into the into the

00:29:47   fray yeah so a lot of people actually use YouTube as their unofficial music

00:29:54   streaming service like a lot of my friends when they say let me let me

00:29:58   me listen to a song they open YouTube. And surprisingly, I've seen a lot of friends using

00:30:05   unofficial YouTube apps to do stuff like background listening or like offline caching of videos,

00:30:12   because for them, they don't want to pay Spotify, they don't want to pay RDO, which is available

00:30:18   in Italy, they don't want to pay, they just want to look at the video on YouTube. And

00:30:23   And also for other people like me, I pay for music streaming services.

00:30:32   I like YouTube because it gives me videos like live performances, demo tapes, other

00:30:39   kinds of remixes, stuff that I don't get on music streaming services or on iTunes.

00:30:48   So even if it's not really meant as a music listening experience, because it's a video,

00:30:56   I'm not the kind of guy that really cares about headphones and "oh, I need to get this

00:31:01   fancy equipment because I want to get all that bass in my songs".

00:31:05   I just want to listen to some music and YouTube is fine when you want to...

00:31:08   I want to watch an Oasis concert and I got the Oasis concert on YouTube.

00:31:13   Now with this YouTube Music Key paid service, what's interesting to me is that they're

00:31:19   doing it just for music, right?

00:31:21   So you get the officially approved videos from an artist and you can get an ad-free

00:31:30   experience, you can do the stuff with background listening, you can do offline downloads, but

00:31:37   this is just for the videos that you otherwise get on an artist's profile on YouTube.

00:31:44   So it's not just any music video, that's what I'm getting, right?

00:31:47   Yeah.

00:31:48   Am I wrong?

00:31:49   Okay.

00:31:50   Yeah, it's not just any music video.

00:31:52   Okay, so if you go to a concert and you shoot a video and you put it on YouTube, I'm not

00:31:56   getting that video in music key.

00:31:59   No.

00:32:00   Okay.

00:32:01   No.

00:32:02   But if an artist says that...

00:32:03   I mean, so to say you're not getting...

00:32:04   Okay, it's still going to be on YouTube, it's still access it, but it's the idea of not

00:32:06   being ads there. So that's what the music key gets you on YouTube. And I can pretty

00:32:12   much, well, it's only going to be the people that would then get money from YouTube, so

00:32:16   it's going to be the official music videos.

00:32:20   So this is interesting...

00:32:21   The content providers.

00:32:22   Yeah, the content providers.

00:32:23   This is really interesting for me, and I actually signed up for Google Play Music today, because

00:32:29   I saw Casey Newton on the verge. He said that if you sign up today for Google Play Music,

00:32:36   gonna get the the key music beta invite next week so I said whatever I'm curious

00:32:42   to see this stuff and so I signed up and I'm really curious because YouTube has

00:32:50   this kind of exclusive content that you don't get anywhere else especially the

00:32:54   concerts and the like the all the other videos are really interesting for me I

00:33:00   I don't like, I'm not particularly a fan of Google, but YouTube is, you know, is full

00:33:08   of content basically. You get a lot of stuff that you don't get on iTunes or Spotify.

00:33:13   And I mean, whatever, I want to check it out, you know. And I don't know if people who use

00:33:18   YouTube for free are going to pay for your music key, because people have a surprisingly

00:33:24   high resistance to ads on the web. I see that it's interesting. I don't know. What do you

00:33:33   guys think?

00:33:35   I think if Google Play Music, if their catalog is as good as everyone else's, then this is

00:33:43   a no-brainer. As long as the app's okay.

00:33:48   Is it within the YouTube app? Or the video stuff's in the YouTube app?

00:33:52   The video stuff is in the YouTube app, but Google Play Music I think still has its own

00:33:56   app.

00:33:57   Yeah.

00:33:58   I mean, I think it's really...

00:33:59   Google Play Music has the app, but you're going to get a new music tab at the top of

00:34:03   the YouTube app.

00:34:04   Yeah, I thought that was just for videos though.

00:34:05   I didn't think it was for the MP3s.

00:34:07   It seems confusing.

00:34:08   I don't know.

00:34:09   I guess if you put the app in the background, you get background audio.

00:34:11   I don't know.

00:34:12   I have no idea.

00:34:13   I don't know.

00:34:14   Yeah.

00:34:15   I mean, it seems like an obvious move for them, right?

00:34:17   Because they have all this content that's being shared, like, by, like, studios put

00:34:21   music videos on YouTube like on official channels so why not try to make that experience better

00:34:26   and bring some money in.

00:34:29   I would bet though that the Google must be giving a chunk of change to the content providers

00:34:40   though because I would bet they make more money from the ads than they would from a

00:34:43   streaming service.

00:34:45   Because the Vevo ads at least they're non-skippable in most instances that I've come across.

00:34:50   - They're like 30 second non-skippable words.

00:34:52   - Skippable.

00:34:53   - Skippable.

00:34:54   So I mean, I would be surprised, you know,

00:34:57   'cause those ones are obviously gonna have the highest CPMs

00:35:01   and that's gonna be the huge benefit.

00:35:05   - Yeah.

00:35:06   - We'll see, I mean, I think it's interesting.

00:35:08   I think it's interesting that this space

00:35:10   seems to be hotting up.

00:35:11   Like, I know me and Jason spoke about

00:35:14   it's an upgrade this week,

00:35:15   but like, there seems to be, Taylor Swift is causing

00:35:18   a bit of a problem at the moment for the streaming services.

00:35:21   I saw then the Spotify guy came out and said

00:35:23   that they're trying to pay people more money

00:35:25   and they're gonna be very open about it.

00:35:26   But it's definitely an interesting space.

00:35:29   I just don't know how much money there is in it.

00:35:31   I don't think there's enough money to go around.

00:35:32   I don't even think there's enough money for the big players.

00:35:34   But we'll see.

00:35:36   I personally think that this makes sense for music

00:35:40   and I think that the big artists,

00:35:43   they will make their money in other ways.

00:35:45   the music industry as a change of business again.

00:35:48   - Cool.

00:35:51   Should we take a break?

00:35:52   - Steven, why don't you,

00:35:54   do we have to wait for Steven's rant?

00:35:56   - Another one?

00:35:59   I get two?

00:36:00   - Yeah, so excited.

00:36:01   Do we have to wait?

00:36:02   - Do you want me to take a break now

00:36:04   or should we let Steven complain about Evernote for--

00:36:06   - No, let's take a break.

00:36:07   I want to make people wait.

00:36:10   - Okay, yeah, Steven wants to complain.

00:36:13   Let's make Steven prepare.

00:36:15   - And I'm sure that I'll fight back because why not?

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00:38:44   I've prepared Federico. Are you? I am ready. Let's let's talk about this, Stephen. So we've

00:38:55   talked a lot over the years about how the three of us use Evernote. Federico, you rely

00:39:00   on it every day. Myke and I use it a ton for the network stuff and they've done

00:39:07   some things that I'm not in love with and from the reaction I've gotten from

00:39:12   these pieces other people are in love with either. So Evernote has added a new

00:39:17   feature in the iOS and the OS X and the Windows app called Context. So if you've

00:39:24   used Evernote in the past I'm sure you've noticed that if you were in a

00:39:27   note and you know you're typing or whatever it will kind of suggest like

00:39:33   other notes that may be related so if I'm writing a note with maybe with

00:39:38   everyone's like PayPal email addresses in it it may say oh hey you have this

00:39:42   notebook over here that's got PayPal stuff in it it might be helpful for you

00:39:46   to see it right it's actually a really useful thing but they've added other

00:39:53   other sources to that list.

00:39:55   So now if you're doing a note, you could see suggested articles from the Wall Street Journal,

00:40:01   TechCrunch, Pando, Fast Company, and a couple others.

00:40:05   They announced a new one just last week, a Japanese media company.

00:40:09   And it's not my favorite thing in the world.

00:40:14   It's gross.

00:40:15   Oh, guys.

00:40:16   It's gross.

00:40:17   So here's before, Myke, before you go.

00:40:22   I wanted it to be fair in what I wrote.

00:40:25   And so if you look in the show notes, like I...

00:40:28   Sound angry.

00:40:29   Yeah, I hit my mic.

00:40:32   It's just ring.

00:40:34   Yeah, all over the place.

00:40:36   Did you point towards the computer when you said show notes?

00:40:38   That's not important.

00:40:39   Show notes, over there!

00:40:40   Show notes are up here on the iMac.

00:40:45   So like Evernote has this really like actually pretty clearly written privacy policy.

00:40:51   call it the three laws of data protection and like it's everything you

00:40:55   put into Evernote is private by default, we don't make money from your content

00:41:01   which is not really true anymore. And so this is what they say in their turn in

00:41:09   their privacy policy about context is that it's not a human, it's not you know

00:41:18   It's not a human reading your notes and saying "oh I think they would be

00:41:22   interested in this article". It's more like the way Gmail works, right? Like

00:41:26   it knows the content of your notes and can bring in these articles. Which is

00:41:31   also gross. Which I don't want that. If only you could turn it off. Yeah but it's on by default.

00:41:40   They turn it on by default. That's gross. Yeah it's on by default and it's

00:41:45   It's not about the...

00:41:46   The thing is, if they didn't turn it on by...

00:41:48   I guess they could ask you, but if they didn't turn it on by default, no one's going to use

00:41:51   it.

00:41:52   And they are a business.

00:41:53   Doesn't that make you wonder about the utility of the feature if people don't turn it on?

00:41:56   No, I mean, but they'd have to tell...

00:41:57   I mean, I then thought to myself, "Well, they could just say to you, 'Do you want to turn

00:42:01   this on?'

00:42:02   Which is probably the better way of doing it.

00:42:03   This is this awesome thing we're doing.

00:42:04   Do you want to turn it on?"

00:42:05   I agree that would be better.

00:42:06   But if they just didn't tell anyone about it, then that would be stupid.

00:42:11   But it's not that you can turn it on or off, it's that they thought this was an okay way

00:42:19   to diversify their income.

00:42:22   How do you know they're getting paid for this?

00:42:24   How are they not getting paid for it?

00:42:26   Because there's a news article about the Nikkei, the Japanese media giant.

00:42:29   Yeah, but Nikkei have invested in Evernote.

00:42:32   They are not paying to have, like PandoDaily have not invested in Evernote.

00:42:37   How many months do we have to wait before we see the Nikkei content in Evernote in Japan?

00:42:41   Oh, they're saying that they're editing it in.

00:42:44   Like they've said that, that the Nikkei's content will be in the context feature, but

00:42:49   they're not paying directly to have that.

00:42:51   They are investing in Evernote.

00:42:52   They are taking a chance with the company.

00:42:53   Yeah, it's like lobbyists.

00:42:54   It's like a lobbyist, yeah.

00:42:56   But what I mean is, like, and can you show me somewhere that says that all of these people

00:43:02   are paying Evernote?

00:43:03   No, I cannot, but it's kind of obvious.

00:43:05   I don't know if it is.

00:43:06   Like why would PandoDaily do wanna do it?

00:43:08   - Because it is a content deal.

00:43:11   I mean, let's just look at the feature

00:43:13   from an objective point of view.

00:43:15   It's not really useful.

00:43:16   I had this note about some research that I was doing

00:43:19   about the retina iMac and the iPad Air 2

00:43:22   during the Apple event.

00:43:23   So when the context feature launched,

00:43:26   I went into Evernote and it was enabled by default.

00:43:28   So at the bottom of my note,

00:43:30   I had these recommendations for iPad reviews

00:43:33   from TechCrunch and PandoDaily,

00:43:36   which are websites that I don't read,

00:43:38   reviews that I don't care about, and they're just there,

00:43:42   and I don't want them, and I didn't ask for them,

00:43:44   and they're there in my personal notes.

00:43:47   And it's just kind of gross, and it's not really useful

00:43:49   because it's not, I mean, I was just taking notes,

00:43:53   and now I'm getting reviews.

00:43:55   What makes you think that I want reviews

00:43:57   from Tucker and Champando daily in my notes?

00:43:59   At the bottom of my notes, not in my notes,

00:44:00   at the bottom of my notes, which, you know, it's just,

00:44:04   It feels like the kind of business deal

00:44:08   that they want to make it appear as a feature.

00:44:12   It's really advertisements.

00:44:14   And yeah, I'm not a fan.

00:44:16   And I'm concerned that going forward,

00:44:18   Evernote may keep considering these business deals

00:44:21   and they're trying to pass them as features to the users,

00:44:26   whereas they're just ways to make them money.

00:44:28   - I know that on the face of it, this is how it seems.

00:44:31   Like, it seems pretty obvious.

00:44:34   But I just want to stress though,

00:44:36   I at least have not seen any proof

00:44:40   that Evernote are receiving a cent for this.

00:44:43   - I mean, I think that's really naive

00:44:45   to actually think that.

00:44:46   - No, I'm not saying that that's what I think.

00:44:49   I just said like, it's obvious.

00:44:51   - No, you're right, Myke, you're right.

00:44:52   - But what I'm saying is there is no proof

00:44:54   that that is the case.

00:44:55   - Right, yes.

00:44:57   - Because if that isn't the case, I think that changes it.

00:44:59   That shows it's a misguided attempt

00:45:01   to provide a useful feature. - It's a really dumb feature.

00:45:03   - Yeah, but it's misguided.

00:45:05   I think that is fundamentally important

00:45:08   that we cannot say for definite

00:45:12   that Evernote are being paid for it.

00:45:13   And if they're not being paid for it,

00:45:14   I don't think it is as bad.

00:45:15   If they're being paid, I am on board of you guys.

00:45:18   But because there is no proof for it,

00:45:20   it makes me think, I'm not sure.

00:45:22   Like, I don't know how I feel about it

00:45:24   because it's something that I don't necessarily want,

00:45:27   but I can see how it would be useful in some instances,

00:45:30   not all instances.

00:45:31   And also it would be more useful

00:45:32   If I could say I want to select my sources

00:45:37   and I can use anyone, like I can have Max Stories there,

00:45:41   I can have Five Tool Pixels there.

00:45:42   So when I'm taking some notes,

00:45:43   like if I was taking notes for this show in Evernote,

00:45:47   that would be an extremely useful feature

00:45:49   for me to start writing YouTube music

00:45:53   and then the Verge pops up and Max Stories pops up

00:45:56   and I can take links and add them in.

00:45:57   Like that is useful, but it's only useful

00:46:01   if I have the full control over it.

00:46:03   So it feels like it's kind of an interesting idea,

00:46:08   but the sources that they add are not relevant to us,

00:46:11   so we're not interested in them.

00:46:12   - Well, it may be useful,

00:46:13   but you don't give me a page view in that way.

00:46:15   You just grab a link from Evernote.

00:46:17   - I mean, I think there are links that go out of the webpage.

00:46:21   - I mean, assuming that you opt in, I don't know.

00:46:24   Of course, there are many things, but you know.

00:46:26   - I mean, as a website publisher,

00:46:27   I don't really know how this stuff goes into Evernote.

00:46:32   Is there an algorithm that just picks articles?

00:46:35   What happens if people don't click on my link?

00:46:37   Am I just being advertised?

00:46:38   I mean, if eventually Evernote turns on this feature for any website, am I just being advertised

00:46:43   in Evernote for some reason?

00:46:46   I just feel really uncomfortable with this stuff.

00:46:49   I don't like it.

00:46:50   I get a Google sense from all this and I don't like it at all.

00:46:55   Right.

00:46:56   So that's, Myke, your point.

00:46:57   This is where it stems, isn't it?

00:46:59   'Cause it is very Googley.

00:47:01   And that's why it doesn't bother me so much,

00:47:02   but it really bothers you guys.

00:47:04   - Right, because I mean, like I wrote,

00:47:06   my Evernote is full of private information.

00:47:10   And even though there's, I believe Evernote

00:47:13   when they say there's not like a dude on the other end

00:47:16   reading it and like, oh, I think they want to read this link.

00:47:19   I believe that. - It's creepy guy

00:47:20   looking at iPad notes. - Creepy guy, yeah.

00:47:23   - Yes, this is the other thing,

00:47:24   why I think that you guys are being silly,

00:47:26   but it's the same instance, right?

00:47:28   That stuff doesn't bother me so much.

00:47:30   - But it's an intrusion.

00:47:30   I mean, Evernote for so long has said,

00:47:32   "We are not going to intrude on your data."

00:47:35   And now they are.

00:47:36   Because they're inserting content from other places,

00:47:41   probably being paid for it, into like my work, right?

00:47:46   Like it was great when it was my notes

00:47:48   'cause that was helpful.

00:47:49   And I'm not distelling the fact, I agree with you.

00:47:51   I think there is a use case for this.

00:47:54   Like if you're doing research

00:47:56   and you can be like, oh yeah, I didn't know

00:47:57   this was an article, and it's really cool.

00:48:00   A, like none of their sources are particularly

00:48:02   interesting to me, but it's breaking a wall

00:48:07   between this is mine and Evernote,

00:48:09   and this is like the internet out there.

00:48:11   And that's a wall that I hope they spent a lot of time

00:48:15   thinking about before stepping through,

00:48:17   but what I worry about and what,

00:48:19   you see this with Evernote all the time,

00:48:21   like, I don't think they thought about it.

00:48:23   I think they were like, "Hey, this would be cool.

00:48:25   "We'll probably get some licensing fees, and let's do it."

00:48:30   It feels disrespectful of the user,

00:48:34   especially, this is the thing that kills me, right?

00:48:36   It's the really thing that I don't understand.

00:48:38   It's a premium feature.

00:48:41   Like they think that it's,

00:48:42   like if this is about just making money, like why not?

00:48:44   But like, hey, it's turned on by default for free users,

00:48:48   and for a premium user, you know, it's optional.

00:48:52   it's only available as a premium feature because they think it's really helpful

00:48:55   and they think that people are gonna love it and from what I've heard from

00:48:59   people that's really not the case I mean look at the chat room right now people

00:49:01   are like this is crazy it seems it seems it seems misguided at best and at worst

00:49:09   something really icky yeah I'm just trying to have faith yeah we just come

00:49:15   down to our different precision song Myke says that's not creepy I'm not

00:49:19   other and me and Steven were more "yeah this is kinda gross"

00:49:23   this is kind of what I least expected it from Steven I didn't know what your

00:49:28   opinion of it was Federico and that was why I was interested because I knew you

00:49:33   because you of us of all of us are the bigger Evernote yeah yeah I mean I could

00:49:41   move out of it pretty easily there's not a lot of apps that do what it does

00:49:45   specifically, you know, like having a note with like files attached and stuff, but

00:49:49   You know that it's a really good. That's the thing that kills me

00:49:52   Like it's actually a really good product like it's very useful. It's very helpful. The fact that it is

00:49:57   everywhere like web, phone, tablet, computer, etc. Like

00:50:02   That's great. There's so many good things about it

00:50:05   but it's like you guys like you gotta pay attention to what's good about your product and

00:50:09   And you know don't break that trust. Yeah, whether it's perceived or not

00:50:14   I don't know, it's great and I love it.

00:50:16   Just this feature?

00:50:19   I don't know.

00:50:20   The other thing to forget is business is gonna business.

00:50:25   There's business in business, Myke.

00:50:28   It's like this stuff costs money.

00:50:32   If this is a way for them to make money because either they're getting paid or...

00:50:36   They're totally getting paid, by the way.

00:50:40   Show me your proof.

00:50:41   you're either getting paid or they think it's a good feature that will get people to sign

00:50:46   up it's like you know what are you gonna do like they've got to try and find ways to make

00:50:52   money.

00:50:53   I don't think Federico either way or begrudging them for trying to diversify their income

00:50:57   like I've paid for Evernote for years and I'm happy to do so.

00:51:03   I actually think their structure of what's available for free and what's available for

00:51:06   premium is more than fair.

00:51:08   I think what I pay for them per month is low compared to all the use I get out of it.

00:51:14   But if you're going to diversify your income, you have to do it in ways that don't take

00:51:21   your core values and what you say you believe in and even remotely approach blowing them

00:51:28   up.

00:51:29   Anyways.

00:51:30   Yeah, I don't know.

00:51:31   My blood pressure is super.

00:51:36   I would have thought of millions of different ways to build and enable this contacts feature.

00:51:42   I mean, look at the sources, it's not really that useful.

00:51:47   I don't know.

00:51:48   Oh, sick vamper.

00:51:49   I don't know.

00:51:51   I'm not against those websites specifically, it's just the scope of the websites included.

00:52:00   not really in-depth scientific sources or technical websites. I mean, it's just generic

00:52:09   news. And with all due respect, when I do my research in Evernote, I don't, and I believe

00:52:16   a lot of other people like me, I don't really need the tech news from TechCrunch in research.

00:52:23   I don't know, maybe just me. With all due respect to TechCrunch and Pendo and whatever

00:52:27   other websites is in, it seems really generic, you know?

00:52:30   What you probably don't need is obvious sources.

00:52:35   If you're writing a review and you need a TechCrunch article for it, if you didn't already

00:52:43   know about that TechCrunch article, then it's probably the wrong thing.

00:52:49   You probably already knew about those guys.

00:52:52   It's just you know it's some by default and you got all these few websites

00:52:56   And you open Evernote and it's just there and you have no control over the sources

00:53:01   You don't know how articles are recommended. It's

00:53:03   But you can to be fair you can turn services off one by one so like if you if you want

00:53:10   Pando, but you know Matthew pansorino cut you off in line to the bathroom

00:53:15   You can turn off tech crunch like there is sort of some control

00:53:18   But I would like I think what would be really interesting is sort of how you know how?

00:53:23   Dot that go has like bang search where you and be like I can search very easily a particular website Google does it too

00:53:29   But it's a little more confusing

00:53:30   That would be really interesting. I say hey Evernote like I'm writing

00:53:34   Let me add a custom

00:53:37   Yeah, search parameters so like free for you. I'm sure you're the same way Federico

00:53:42   I searched my own site all the time for like did I write about the PowerBook 180 see I can't remember

00:53:48   Why would you remember? I probably

00:53:50   Wow that cuts me

00:53:54   Cuts me deep

00:53:56   If it exists, I'll put it in the show notes for you. So you feel better

00:53:59   I don't think I've ran about the 180c in particular

00:54:01   Like that would be really helpful like okay take this technology and like open it up and make it more interesting and make it more flexible

00:54:09   And therefore make it more powerful, but that's not what they've done. Maybe that's where they'll go

00:54:15   I think that'd be a great addition for a premium user of let me have custom search

00:54:19   Custom web search brought in but to have it sort of like hey, it's here and it's on by default and like

00:54:25   It's super janky to turn it off in the OS X app

00:54:28   You actually have to go to the web to do it. Like it's just not really

00:54:31   Well done at this point. So yeah, anyways, Myke isn't bothered

00:54:35   Steven kind of is I am so welcome to connect it

00:54:40   I guess one last one last quick very very quick point. It is kind of crazy to me that Google hasn't already done this

00:54:46   What do you mean like a keep

00:54:50   Knowing Google Docs. Oh, yeah Google Docs. Okay. Well, I think

00:54:54   Like there's not ads in Google Docs either because I think that Google understands that things that happen in Docs are like sort of off-limits

00:55:01   To them. Yeah, so that's why I just find it crazy that they haven't done it.

00:55:04   Even Google understands.

00:55:05   Yeah, I guess that's pretty bad, right? That's not good.

00:55:08   That's not a good yardstick to measure yourself against. Has Google done it? No. Then we should do it.

00:55:16   Yeah, and like, and you can do like add-ons and you can do stuff with Google Docs, like you can,

00:55:22   like the source is a pretty popular one. There's some stuff you can like bolt on to Google Docs

00:55:28   to make research and sort of this stuff a little easier, but it's it's all off by default, right?

00:55:34   And Google is not like, "Hey, look at this thing we shoved in here!" Like, they're sort of a holy

00:55:38   Holy of Holies once you're in your Google Doc where you can't come in and do whatever you want.

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00:59:30   So Federico, you told us you had a topic today.

00:59:34   - I do.

00:59:35   I want to talk to you guys about something.

00:59:37   - Okay.

00:59:38   Is it Google?

00:59:41   - No, it's not Google.

00:59:42   It's not Italy.

00:59:43   It's not Italian ISPs.

00:59:45   It's about software preservation

00:59:50   in the age of the App Store.

00:59:52   So this is a topic that I've been thinking about

00:59:54   quite a while. I've always been fascinated by the idea of keeping stuff

01:00:00   around for, you know, for reference but just for the future, I guess, and I've

01:00:07   been thinking and reading a lot about software preservation, about video games,

01:00:11   about old software from really old computers, and I've been thinking

01:00:18   also about the App Store. So I've been writing Mac stories since 2009 and

01:00:24   I've seen and I've tested and I've reviewed and used a lot of apps and

01:00:30   Going back through the Mac stories archives. A lot of those apps are not around anymore. Like they don't exist anymore and

01:00:39   and and that got me thinking a lot of apps are released every day and

01:00:45   People talk about them people use them people enjoy them whether they're apps or games

01:00:53   And then maybe after a few years those apps just die. They disappear. They're no longer on the App Store. You cannot buy them

01:01:00   You cannot find them anymore in your computer because maybe use the App Store on your device to to download an app

01:01:06   Maybe you you replace your phone. You don't have the old phone around anymore. So that app is it it doesn't exist anymore

01:01:14   Effectively, it's nowhere to be found and

01:01:18   other times

01:01:21   Maybe you still have the original app around, but it's unusable because of, for instance, an API change.

01:01:30   Because maybe the app depends on some kind of online infrastructure that no longer works.

01:01:36   So the app maybe crashes at launch or doesn't show you anything.

01:01:40   So, because I'm a big believer of the fact that software as something that is made by humans is a form of cultural expression,

01:01:50   I wouldn't say art in the sense that a painting is art.

01:01:55   I would say that culture is art and therefore apps are a form of human expression.

01:02:02   I'm a big believer that software falls under that category and that got me thinking about

01:02:10   how are we exactly preserving all this software, all these apps?

01:02:16   Do we really care about keeping apps around?

01:02:19   Do we care about remembering apps and the people who make them?

01:02:23   Is this just a problem for me?

01:02:25   This is making me feel sad.

01:02:28   Yeah, it is kind of sad, right?

01:02:30   Because if you think about it, it's not that apps exist just on their own, on the App Store.

01:02:35   There are people who make apps.

01:02:37   So I was looking through the Mac Stories archives,

01:02:40   And I was remembering five years ago when I started writing the website,

01:02:46   I remember for instance when Tweety by Lauren Brikter came out.

01:02:52   Tweety and Tweety Two, those apps were basically the highest standard for making iPhone apps.

01:03:02   And Lauren invented so many different features and design details such as pull to refresh for instance.

01:03:09   He owns a patent with Twitter on the pull-to-refresh gesture, which is now a universally recognized

01:03:17   way of interacting with a mobile device. So I was thinking about this and of course,

01:03:22   Twitter is no longer around. So I was just considering the fact that if I were like a teenager

01:03:30   today and I'm getting started on iOS development because I want to make apps and I go to Google and

01:03:37   I search for examples of, I don't know, famous iOS apps or, you know, the kind of reference

01:03:43   stuff that you want to know, and you stumble upon Twitter, and this app does not exist

01:03:49   anymore and you cannot use it, you cannot try it. And this is true for thousands of

01:03:55   other apps. And my final question to myself was, is this really important? Is there anyone

01:04:05   Who cares about this problem?

01:04:07   Do we care about keeping software around for the future?

01:04:11   So I did some research, of course.

01:04:14   And so the first example that came to me

01:04:20   was the MoMA, the Museum of Modern Art.

01:04:24   They are really invested in the video game preservation.

01:04:30   Thanks to curator Paola Antonelli--

01:04:33   she must be Italian, I guess.

01:04:35   that's an Italian name, Demoma has assembled a collection of 14 video games and they're

01:04:43   adding more and more.

01:04:44   And these video games include Tetris and even Minecraft for instance.

01:04:48   They're notable examples of popular video games that influence human culture and human

01:04:56   behavior and they are examples of video game design and they are just a little frozen moment

01:05:04   in human history, there is a refracted in Minecraft or Tetris, and they're essentially

01:05:11   culture in the form of software.

01:05:15   And these games, I mean, there's Pac-Man, Tetris, The Sims, Katamari Domasi, which is

01:05:21   a crazy game for PlayStation.

01:05:22   >>Cannabalt's in there.

01:05:24   >>Cannabalt is in there, the iPhone game.

01:05:27   So if the MoMA is really thinking about software preservation and video game preservation,

01:05:35   can this be applied to apps on the App Store and maybe even Google Play Store?

01:05:41   So I started reading more about the process of the MoMA for video game preservation.

01:05:47   What they're doing is interesting because besides consulting scholars and critics of

01:05:53   video game websites and experts of digital conservation of video games, they follow all

01:06:02   these different steps to make sure that a video game is preserved over time.

01:06:08   Of course, they ask for the original physical copy of the software, whether it's a cartridge

01:06:13   or a disk.

01:06:14   They ask for the source code.

01:06:17   To make sure that in the future, if you have the source code, you can recompile it or translate

01:06:23   it to another language and still use it. They ask for notes, comments about the code, to

01:06:30   make sure that in the future somebody else could get the code exactly right. They ask

01:06:37   for an interview with the creator of the beta game and then they try to understand the best

01:06:43   way to display that kind of game, whether it's a multiplayer game, so you need, I don't

01:06:48   the original console and multiple joysticks or maybe it's an iPhone game so it's a really

01:06:53   quick game and you can just have an iPhone on a stand inside the museum and let people play.

01:06:58   There's plenty of interviews with Paolo Antonelli but I also found an interesting article on US

01:07:07   Gamer which is a great video game website and the article started by talking about the Nintendo

01:07:14   Satellaview. And this is actually closer to the App Store than the MOMA

01:07:19   because the MOMA actually needed to find physical copies of video games to keep

01:07:25   them around also digitally for the future. But we don't have physical copies

01:07:30   of apps. But it turns out that the Nintendo Satellaview, which was an

01:07:35   attachment to the Super Nintendo which was only released in Japan, had a

01:07:39   a download-only feature that lets you download games over a satellite connection and keep

01:07:47   it on your Super Nintendo.

01:07:49   So we're talking about 20 years ago, Steven.

01:07:52   Yeah.

01:07:53   Sounds like good stuff.

01:07:54   So there was no...

01:07:55   There were games for the Nintendo Sotelo View that...

01:07:58   I actually can't believe this thing existed.

01:08:01   Yeah.

01:08:02   There were games for the Sotelo View that didn't exist physically.

01:08:06   one of those games called Radical Dreamers is the sequel, I guess, to the super popular Chrono

01:08:14   Trigger which is being ported to many many other platforms including iOS. Now that game doesn't

01:08:22   exist physically. It was only available on the Satellaview service so of course that service was

01:08:28   not really successful for Nintendo and it shut down eventually and now if you want to legally

01:08:34   play Radical Dreamers, you need to find somebody who has a working Satellaview, who didn't

01:08:41   uninstall the game, who didn't delete the game, who basically downloaded the game 20

01:08:45   years ago and kept the console around, intact, with the digital download.

01:08:53   So in this case, the MoMA approach doesn't really work, right?

01:08:56   Because it's a piece of software that is on a not successful console that is not available

01:09:03   physically, you cannot probably find the original team that made this piece of

01:09:09   software and now if you want to play this legally and if you want to keep it

01:09:14   for the future you need to rely on emulation. So I also started

01:09:20   reading about emulation and you know can we maybe keep software around in

01:09:26   an altered form that lets you play the original game or use the original

01:09:32   program, just not on the original hardware. And of course I stumbled upon

01:09:37   the Internet Archive, which is an awesome nonprofit organization that wants to, as

01:09:44   the name suggests, archive the Internet. And among the various initiatives of the

01:09:50   Internet Archive, which I really recommend donating to, there's two that I

01:09:56   want to focus on. The first one is the console living room, which is a

01:10:00   a collection of... it's an emulator system for web browsers. So it's a combination of the

01:10:07   MESS, is the name M-E-S-S, emulation system that the Internet Archive came up with, combined with

01:10:14   JavaScript, that lets you emulate older games in a web browser. So there's many different consoles

01:10:22   supported by the console living room and some of them I never heard about before.

01:10:28   Some of them I know about, like the Game Gear, there's a bunch of Atari stuff.

01:10:35   So you can have these old games today in a web browser. And there's also the Internet Archive

01:10:44   Software Collection, which is a software library, is the definition, that gives you access to a lot

01:10:53   of weird old stuff like of course computer programs, CD-ROM images, there's

01:11:00   even an archive, Steven I know this this may get you excited, there's an archive

01:11:06   of old FTP websites that are no longer on the web so there's like an FTP

01:11:12   archive or the old Atari.com server that you can download as a zip file on your

01:11:19   computer it's like 20 gigs. This isn't just games.

01:11:23   It's websites, it's programs, it's tons of software stuff.

01:11:30   Documentation for old software, various multimedia kind of projects and

01:11:36   files, a lot of different kinds of software. So after reading about the MoMA

01:11:43   we have a couple of articles in the show notes, after reading about there's

01:11:48   There's even what is called a software preservation society, which is not like a cult, it looks

01:11:56   like a legit website.

01:11:58   They even have a Twitter account.

01:11:59   Have you been dog-genating us into this cult right now?

01:12:01   Is that what you're doing?

01:12:03   No, no, no.

01:12:04   They even have a Twitter account.

01:12:09   I also got reading about this conference from last year called Preserving AXA, such as the

01:12:16   file extension, which was a conference at the Library of Congress about this very

01:12:23   topic of preserving software. After reading all this stuff, I went back to

01:12:28   thinking about the App Store. So Apple has a few... we need to mention a

01:12:33   few facts about the App Store. Apps can be downloaded on your computer as IPA

01:12:40   And Apple has a DRM system in place which is a Apple Fairplay which is used

01:12:48   across the iTunes Store and App Store for music, movies and just about

01:12:53   everything that Apple sells digitally. Which is important to mention because in

01:12:59   the future if you basically if you want to play Apple software, App Store

01:13:07   software on a device you need to account for the DRM that Apple has. So I try to

01:13:16   imagine a scenario for the future and this is where I

01:13:22   want to talk to you guys about this. I'm sorry for the long

01:13:26   introduction but I felt that it was necessary. Eventually the apps that

01:13:33   like are going to die. They're going to be unsupported, they're going to break.

01:13:39   The API is that some web-based apps users are going to disappear or are going to be

01:13:46   replaced and there's not going to be an update. Apps depend on people and when

01:13:52   people stop caring, apps die. This is not ancient history, this is not about

01:13:59   FTP websites. Even apps and games from the App Store of a few years ago, they have disappeared

01:14:05   and they are no longer around and you cannot download them, you cannot play them, you can talk

01:14:10   about them, you can read on websites, you can read all the reviews. And those apps were made by people

01:14:16   but those apps are no longer around so you can talk about them and you can say "yeah it used to

01:14:21   exist but now it doesn't exist anymore". And this really bothers me. I don't know why it bothers me,

01:14:29   But it really feels strange to me that something used to exist in the age of the web and the

01:14:35   App Store and now it doesn't exist anymore and nobody has a backup copy and nobody has

01:14:39   an alternative. So you can just talk about it. And it really bothers me. And I wonder,

01:14:46   and this is my question to you guys, do we care about this problem? Is it a problem at all? Or is

01:14:52   it just me and maybe those other weirdos like me at the Library of Congress and the Software Society

01:14:58   Do we care about this problem? Is there a solution for the future?

01:15:02   Do we need an organization like the MoMA coming up with solutions to emulate apps and games from the App Store era

01:15:10   to make sure that people in 20 years can say, "Hey, look at this Lauren guy.

01:15:14   He came up with some pretty sweet solutions for scrolling a timeline."

01:15:19   It means you're getting older, is what it means.

01:15:24   Is it something that matters in your opinion?

01:15:28   I'll ship you an old power book. You know how I feel. I think it does matter, especially...

01:15:35   I think a lot about this about what we create. So like, Max Stories, 512, Relay, like...

01:15:43   The stuff is only around as long as we pay our hosting bills.

01:15:46   And then it's like, maybe Web Archive, you know, maybe Archive.org picked it up, but probably not.

01:15:52   It was definitely something I spent time thinking about and pondering.

01:15:57   And not so much in the app space, although I think that's important too.

01:16:03   Because our industry does move so quickly.

01:16:07   Things like Lauren's pull to refresh, that is a huge deal.

01:16:12   You cannot overstate how big a breakthrough that was and its adoption and the way Twitter

01:16:18   handled it legally and all that good stuff and it's like you kind of don't

01:16:23   know where you are in history without knowing where you've

01:16:29   been like this one reason I really enjoy like old Apple hardware and software and

01:16:33   I come across this you know I don't I don't boot up my old Macs as much as I

01:16:37   used to but like the same thing like oh I need a you know some like random Mac

01:16:41   OS 8 point something CD to install this seems like I cannot find it so it's

01:16:48   It's definitely something that's bigger than just the App Store, but something I think

01:16:50   is really important, and I don't know what the answer is.

01:16:54   It's great that MoMA's doing this, and it's great that the Library of Congress does stuff,

01:17:00   and it's great that archive.org exists.

01:17:04   Bitrot is a very real thing, and you can even get down to the micro level of your own backups.

01:17:14   Do you have the papers you wrote in middle school or high school?

01:17:19   I don't know.

01:17:20   It's a very interesting topic because it's something that is huge and really personal

01:17:23   and small at the same time.

01:17:25   Yeah, because what I fear is that this stuff, this software preservation that the MoMA and

01:17:33   these other people are doing, that's possible because they're trying to preserve software

01:17:38   from a different era.

01:17:40   Because today we have millions of apps and I fear that it is technically impossible to

01:17:51   preserve all of this because it's just too much and because software moves quickly and

01:17:57   because the games and the programs that these people are trying to keep around, they didn't

01:18:05   have updates, they didn't have an app store, they didn't move quickly.

01:18:10   it was a static, I would say, piece of software.

01:18:14   So it's easier to keep around and to say,

01:18:16   hey, look what I saved.

01:18:18   Today you cannot say, hey,

01:18:20   I want to save a copy of Tweety 2.1.3.

01:18:23   - Yeah. - Right?

01:18:24   - Like the App Store is gonna override it

01:18:26   or the Action Software is gonna explode

01:18:28   or like what you run into with like old Macs as well.

01:18:32   Like even if I have the software,

01:18:34   that doesn't mean I have the hardware

01:18:35   and the OS to run it either, right?

01:18:37   Like if something only runs on,

01:18:40   you know, iPhone OS 2 and 3 and like you don't have a phone that can do that.

01:18:44   It's like, well, cool.

01:18:45   I have an IPA that I can like open and like poke around in, but I can't actually

01:18:50   do anything with it, which is a whole nother, like it's one thing to like

01:18:54   collect an archive, another thing to like keep around for actual use.

01:18:59   That's a wholly different like level of pain and suffering.

01:19:02   You know, what's this may sound crazy.

01:19:07   Apple, as an archive I guess of all versions of every app that's ever been on the App Store

01:19:13   It would be really awesome

01:19:15   Even just for select apps and games to have like an App Store museum

01:19:21   I know it sounds crazy and just out of this world. I just think it would be really

01:19:28   nice, I guess

01:19:31   to recognize at least some software on the App Store as a

01:19:37   as an important piece of human culture.

01:19:42   Right?

01:19:43   - Yeah.

01:19:43   - And I don't mean--

01:19:44   - Part of it is you don't know what's going to be that

01:19:46   until it's gone.

01:19:47   - Yeah.

01:19:48   - Like to a degree.

01:19:49   - Yeah, absolutely.

01:19:50   And also, how can you select the kind of apps

01:19:55   that you want to keep around for the future

01:19:57   to say, "Hey, look at what in 2010, this guy,

01:20:01   look what he made."

01:20:02   And I mean, of course you don't want some rip-off

01:20:06   or scamming up from the App Store to be preserved.

01:20:10   Because there is a lot of noise.

01:20:13   And 20 years ago, 30 years ago, of course,

01:20:17   you want to keep an FTP archive of the original Atari server,

01:20:22   because that's cool, because it's Atari.

01:20:24   Today, how do you pick from over a million apps on the App Store?

01:20:28   How do you choose a game for the iPhone or the iPad

01:20:31   on the App Store with so much stuff?

01:20:34   So maybe the answer is that we cannot have the same kind of software preservation that these guys are doing.

01:20:41   Because the App Store is different.

01:20:44   And this is not just limited to the App Store.

01:20:47   There's the Google Play Store, there's Steam, there's a bunch of different online marketplaces that you may argue,

01:20:54   "Yeah, I want to preserve the stuff, but how can you do that?"

01:20:57   But like you said, it's even hard on physical media.

01:21:00   Like CDs rot.

01:21:02   I don't, like someone in the chatroom said a couple months ago, like, "Does anyone still

01:21:06   have a zip disk drive?"

01:21:07   I do.

01:21:08   And I take it very seriously.

01:21:10   But most people don't.

01:21:14   It's just this constant churn of bits, and it's really, it's like a stream, right?

01:21:19   It's like you put your hands in a stream and you try to capture something out of it, and

01:21:23   it's just gonna go right through your fingers.

01:21:25   And it is a sign of getting older when that makes you sadder than it used to.

01:21:31   I don't know, I just feel like in 20 years, if something like Monument Valley or the upcoming Space Age game isn't preserved, it seems really absurd and sad.

01:21:47   Because those are games, but it's also true for apps. This is software that people sat down and actually wrote.

01:21:55   It's like, in a way, I'm not saying it's like poetry, but it's something that a person made, right?

01:22:02   It's just not literature, it's software, but it's still a human creation, and it feels stupid to me not to keep it around.

01:22:09   Like, it really makes me upset, you know?

01:22:11   Yeah, no, I feel that way about Claires Works.

01:22:14   But don't you at a certain point just end up keeping everything forever?

01:22:19   Like, where does it stop?

01:22:22   And I don't just mean apps, like literally everything that's on the internet.

01:22:28   Everything that's on the internet should in theory then go through this process and that

01:22:33   is not possible.

01:22:35   It's it's yeah.

01:22:36   I guess I guess with.

01:22:38   Go ahead.

01:22:40   I guess it's it's why we need people like Paolo and Sonelli at the MoMA or people at

01:22:45   the archive.org because they they this is an awful word but they curate like those are

01:22:51   actual curators at a museum because they choose what needs to be preserved, but at least they

01:22:58   preserve something, you know?

01:23:00   Yeah, but the app store, there's no way right now.

01:23:03   The MoMA's currently got 14 video games.

01:23:06   Yeah, they're planning to add many more.

01:23:09   I hope so, because that's not much of a collection.

01:23:13   I don't know.

01:23:14   I agree it's nice, but I think that the thought of it is nicer than the actual doing.

01:23:21   I mean, but you know, anybody that knows me, I don't really hold a lot of sentiment for these types of things

01:23:27   In actuality, I believe that I think that they're pretty nice

01:23:32   But like... Don't you think there's some kind of romance to people writing software? Yes there is.

01:23:38   I mean, it's something that a person made even if you despise that person profoundly and even if he charged

01:23:44   Four dollars on the App Store five years ago, and he was a jerk because he asked for money

01:23:49   I mean, it was a person, right?

01:23:51   Yeah, but there are literally years of podcasts that I've made that you cannot find anymore.

01:23:56   Like years worth.

01:23:57   Doesn't that make you sad?

01:23:58   No, 'cause I chose that.

01:23:59   Well, I mean, that's a different thing.

01:24:04   That's a wholly different debate, which I don't think we have time or the understanding

01:24:09   for today of like...

01:24:12   Like Myke, you took those old shows off the internet, and no matter how many I have of

01:24:18   them on my raid, they don't actually belong to me, and so for me to post those early shows

01:24:24   of yours on the Squarespace site, I actually don't have the rights to do that.

01:24:30   And not just because you and I are friends and business partners, but that it's just

01:24:34   not mine to do.

01:24:36   And so there's that whole other world of, yeah, it'd be really cool if I could emulate

01:24:41   an old version of Tweety, but Twitter actually owns that, and what if Twitter's not happy

01:24:46   about us doing it?

01:24:47   Now in 50 years when Twitter's dead and gone, it doesn't really matter as much.

01:24:54   But there is that sort of idea of what can someone legally, or at least not in an icky

01:25:02   way, actually archive and actually preserve?

01:25:07   It's complex.

01:25:08   See, that's where I wonder.

01:25:10   I mean, today we go to museums and we look at the dumbest stuff from like 2,000 years

01:25:19   ago.

01:25:20   Look, this is the tool that Egyptians used to use to poke the ground.

01:25:25   There's nothing to show even my great-grandchildren what I'm doing right now.

01:25:29   There just won't be.

01:25:30   Unless I save those MP3s and they have a way to listen to them and they give one single

01:25:37   hoot about it, it's not real.

01:25:39   No one's gonna dig up the Relay FM website.

01:25:43   What I'm trying to say is, why is it that we go to museums and we look at tools that,

01:25:49   like stupid tools, that people used to rely upon in their daily lives?

01:25:54   And are we sure that in 2000 years, we don't want to say, "Hey, look at what people from

01:26:00   the 2000s used to use on their phones to communicate with the world."

01:26:05   But they'll be digging up the keyboards and the phones and the mice, like not...

01:26:09   Are you sure?

01:26:10   Not the bits.

01:26:11   Yeah, because...

01:26:12   If they find my house, they will be.

01:26:14   Like I mean, the stuff like this stuff is it can never be dug up.

01:26:20   You can never dig up an app.

01:26:22   Like it's not possible whether...

01:26:23   That's the problem.

01:26:24   Yeah.

01:26:25   Because it's not possible.

01:26:26   Yeah, okay.

01:26:27   Yeah, that is a problem.

01:26:28   But you know, I mean, you say like the people have tools.

01:26:30   Maybe you still have tools.

01:26:31   They're just keyboards, you know?

01:26:33   Like it's...

01:26:34   I don't know.

01:26:35   I don't know, like, I assume that there are loads of things that even the Egyptians made

01:26:41   that like there's a bunch of papyrus that is like, you can't find anymore, you know?

01:26:46   But some of it you can find.

01:26:48   Yeah.

01:26:49   It's a terrible thought.

01:26:51   Yeah, see, it's a terrible thought.

01:26:55   Yeah.

01:26:56   I don't know.

01:26:57   Maybe it's a...

01:26:58   Let's just quit now.

01:26:59   What's the point?

01:27:00   Yeah, well, yeah, this is really depressing.

01:27:03   Let's just, okay, let's have a plan.

01:27:05   Let's just start archiving IPA files.

01:27:09   But then where do we put them?

01:27:11   I like it in the cloud.

01:27:13   That's not a thing.

01:27:15   I will archive the cloud.

01:27:18   Tell you what, let's buy some iCloud Drive storage and use iCloud Drive to drag and...

01:27:29   It's barely around now.

01:27:30   It's true.

01:27:32   Let's not start that conversation.

01:27:33   Let's use the iCloud drive to archive IPA files from iTunes.

01:27:41   Maybe in 2000 years they would say those brave souls, they trusted iCloud for posterity.

01:27:49   Foolish, foolish generation.

01:27:53   All right, Myke, take us home.

01:27:58   If you want to catch, uh, catch, if you want to also read our show notes for this week's

01:28:02   episode you can launch any browser you like, maybe Kamino, and go to relay.fm/connected/13.

01:28:09   My name is Myke Hurley, I am at iMyke, I am the host of many shows on this fine relay.fm.

01:28:14   I am joined as always by Mr. Stephen Hackett at ISMH, he writes at five12pixels.net and

01:28:20   Mr. Federico Vittucci, he is at @vitticci and he writes at maxstories.net.

01:28:26   Thanks again to our sponsors this week, Harry's, Igloo and Squarespace, and we'll be back

01:28:32   next time.

01:28:33   Say goodbye, gentlemen.

01:28:34   Arrivederci.

01:28:35   Adios.

01:28:35   Adios.

01:28:36   [ Silence ]