0:00:00[Music]
0:00:07Hello and welcome to episode 13 of Connected on Relay FM.
0:00:12This episode of Connected is brought to you by Harry's, an exceptional shave at half the price,
0:00:17igloo, an internet you'll actually like, and Squarespace. Start here, go anywhere.
0:00:23My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by my colleague, Mr. Stephen Hackett.
0:00:28Hey buddy.
0:00:29How you doing, Steven?
0:00:30It's good. It's good to be back.
0:00:31And Mr. Federico Vittucci.
0:00:34Hey, guys.
0:00:34It sounded like I didn't think it was good for Steven to be back. He's like,
0:00:39"It's good to be back," and I'm like, "Moving on."
0:00:41You're like, "Eh, eh."
0:00:43I mean, it might be good for you. It can't be for everyone.
0:00:46I do have to say, so I listen to the show.
0:00:49You are that listener then?
0:00:52Yes. Just the one.
0:00:57and I really have to say I really feel like my part of the show being the follow-up
0:01:05was really awkward. It really fell down without me.
0:01:09Oh and how much follow-up do you have this week?
0:01:10We have two points.
0:01:14Okay so about as much as we had last week.
0:01:16The second one is really good.
0:01:16So you're back with two pieces of follow-up.
0:01:18I actually think I had more than that last week.
0:01:21That's not really a comeback, Steven.
0:01:23Well, you know, Federico, sometimes, sometimes you don't come back with a rock album.
0:01:28Sometimes you come back with an EP of some soft songs.
0:01:31And that's what I'm doing today.
0:01:32Don't call that a comeback.
0:01:33Follow up.
0:01:36Please follow up.
0:01:38I can't follow up cause it's about myself.
0:01:41And someone wrote in all capital letters, explain yourself.
0:01:44That was in there from last week.
0:01:46Steven, why did you buy an iPad mini too?
0:01:50Explain yourself.
0:01:52Wow.
0:01:53because you talked me out of an iPad Mini 3.
0:01:57My wife's iPad 4 seemed really terrible and so I gave her my
0:02:02Air and I went back to the iPad Mini. And I
0:02:05realized that I really missed the size. So I've been
0:02:09using it a good bit and I got the one with Verizon access
0:02:15again because once you have LTE on an iPad you don't want to go back to a non-
0:02:19LTE iPad. So yeah.
0:02:22Yeah. Do you think that you are really enjoying it or you're just having like
0:02:27that iPad honeymoon period that you always have whenever you change your iPad?
0:02:31That's a good question. Did you know, Steven, that you can get work done on an iPad just like a Mac?
0:02:39You can also write your verse if you want to.
0:02:44Yeah, I can show you workflows if you want.
0:02:48variety of my verse. I am an iOS power user, Steven. I've heard that. I've heard that rumor.
0:02:56So tell us, Steven, what's your verse? Follow up. We have the best piece of follow up in the
0:03:04history of all podcasting. If you look in the show notes, which Federico, where could the
0:03:11the show notes be found? Yeah, see last week I had these instructions
0:03:20for the show notes and it really, my goal was to tell people where to find the show
0:03:27notes and as a result we got this nice piece of follow up so people can use your web browser.
0:03:37You need to give enough web browser now so people could do this again.
0:03:41Okay, so fine.
0:03:43You can use either Opera or Classilla.
0:03:47Classilla is a browser that's still being developed for Mac OS 9.
0:03:52Oh, I know.
0:03:54Yeah, see.
0:03:55Actually, a new build of Classilla was released a couple of weeks ago.
0:04:00How do you know about that?
0:04:01I've never even heard about this.
0:04:02That's the stuff that I just know.
0:04:04I had a link in the newsletter because it was interesting.
0:04:08So if you use Opera or Classilla, you can go to http colon double slash relay.fm slash
0:04:20connected slash the numeral, which is 13.
0:04:26Oh God, is it 13?
0:04:29It is 13.
0:04:30And you will find plenty of links and tidbits about Mac power users and iOS power users
0:04:38and just in general show notes about this episode.
0:04:40It's a different show.
0:04:42I was on that show.
0:04:44Myke is a Mac power user.
0:04:48Everyone on this show...
0:04:49Oh, no, not yet.
0:04:52Wow.
0:04:53So we had a listener send us five screenshots of our show notes in Netscape Navigator, and
0:04:59I put them on the Relay blog.
0:05:01And I have to say, it doesn't look that bad.
0:05:04- I was really surprised.
0:05:07It looks better than IE6.
0:05:09So.
0:05:10(laughing)
0:05:12- So.
0:05:13- Our site is basically unviewable in IE6 by the way.
0:05:15- But. - Is it?
0:05:16- Yeah. - I don't.
0:05:17- Yeah, I don't care. - Ask me how much
0:05:18I care about that.
0:05:18- I do not care at all.
0:05:20- I don't either.
0:05:21- I guess if we wait just a couple of years,
0:05:25These screenshots may as well pass as a flat design or some sort of minimal theme for the website.
0:05:34It is a nice interface actually, the Netscape.
0:05:38Have you guys ever used Netscape? I mean, Steven must have.
0:05:42Steven must have, yes.
0:05:45Yeah, it looks like a nice browser.
0:05:51Isn't this on Windows? What is this? Mac OS? What is it, Stephen?
0:05:56It's on Windows.
0:05:59It's on Windows.
0:06:00Or actually an SGI workstation. It's not really Windows.
0:06:04What's a workstation?
0:06:06It's like a Mac Pro.
0:06:07What's an SGI?
0:06:09So, yeah, you should go check that out. The link's in the show notes and in the chat room.
0:06:14And that's the end of the follow-up.
0:06:16Steven, can you explain to me what is happening in the United States of America around net neutrality right now?
0:06:23Yes, please. I had the same request. I have no idea what is this, all this stuff about net neutrality,
0:06:30and I just don't understand, I'm dumb, I don't follow politics, so please explain to us.
0:06:35Okay, so do you guys, for you guys or for people who don't know, like net neutrality is the idea that internet traffic,
0:06:45So, websites, podcasts, video, they should be treated equally.
0:06:51They should be able to travel at the same speed no matter where they come from.
0:06:59So a simple example is Netflix versus YouTube.
0:07:02So Netflix videos should stream as smoothly on the same connection as a YouTube video.
0:07:07Right?
0:07:08Makes sense to me.
0:07:09So the way to think about it, and you see terms of like, is it a public utility?
0:07:16The idea is sort of that you're electric company, so I pay my electric company however much
0:07:22I pay them a month, and I get to use that electricity however I want to.
0:07:27So I can turn all the lamps on in my house all the time, or I can, you know, replace
0:07:34the lamps with, you know, like electric powered flame throwers.
0:07:38Like it doesn't matter, right?
0:07:39It comes to the wall, it comes to my meter, I pay for it, and they don't get a say in
0:07:43how I use it.
0:07:44So net neutrality is kind of that idea of, you know, the Internet should be open and
0:07:52traffic should be treated equally and fairly regardless of where it comes from.
0:08:01And so sort of the issue that comes up is that ISPs, Internet Service Providers like
0:08:09Comcast or AT&T or Verizon, they have gotten into the content creation business.
0:08:15So Comcast owns NBC, which is a big television network here.
0:08:21So the idea is, oh god, sorry, I'm closing the chat room.
0:08:31So the idea is, or the problem is that Comcast could say, "Hey, you know what?
0:08:37The streaming site we made for NBC, that's going to stream really well, but Netflix,
0:08:44we're going to have to charge them more for their traffic, their rate of information as
0:08:50it flows through our pipes that it gets the same treatment. They actually do
0:08:54that? There have been examples, maybe Myke if you can dig up the link for the
0:09:01show notes, this happened earlier this year with Netflix actually and if you
0:09:06guys remember the article it was like Netflix's PR spin was like we have
0:09:10partnered with Comcast for like you know high-speed something something is
0:09:17something but like very clearly basically these ISPs can hold content
0:09:21creators hostage and say you know what you need to pay our tax if you want to
0:09:25be on what they call the fast lane so that's another sort of jargon you hear
0:09:30in this of hey you know we want to create fast lanes on the internet well
0:09:37really that's not really what they're doing they're really they're creating
0:09:39slow lanes as you guys know probably broadband speed in the United States is
0:09:46really pretty cruddy for a lot of people and so it's not like Comcast is saying
0:09:50"hey if we can do this then we can build faster networks" like they're promising
0:09:56that in some places but it's not really what they what they've been doing what
0:09:59they want to do and so this has been sort of a deal in the United States for
0:10:04a couple of years now as there's been some legislation around it and basically
0:10:10it boils down to the fact that the internet should be considered a public
0:10:16utility in a lot of people's minds and so this week President Obama issued a
0:10:20statement urging the FCC which is the government agency that oversees things
0:10:25like cell phone carriers, cable providers, internet providers saying that hey you
0:10:30know what like you should treat this as a public utility and there should be
0:10:35regulation in place so Verizon can't say to Rackspace "hey we don't we're not
0:10:42gonna serve your stuff unless you pay us some sort of service fee" and so it blew
0:10:48up right. President Obama comes out makes a statement and Obama has no power over
0:10:54the FCC is an independent sort of agency within the federal government and that
0:11:00was in the news today, the guy who runs the FCC is problematic and we'll
0:11:08get to that. So yeah, so that's kind of why it's back in the news, because the
0:11:12White House, President Obama came out and said "hey you know what, this should be
0:11:16this should be a thing". The funny thing like, is in the in the European
0:11:23Union there is already an neutrality law, it was done and dusted like a year ago.
0:11:29Yeah, so it's important. I wrote a thing the other day, maybe yesterday, about why
0:11:36this is important. So it's not just, "Oh, I want my Netflix to be fast." It
0:11:42affects everyone. So let's take Relay FM, for example, the business that Myke, you
0:11:47and I own. Our internet business exists on the internet because we do
0:11:54internet things. Without the internet, Relay does not exist. Just period,
0:11:57Right? Like the web, our business is a website and a collection of audio files.
0:12:01That's all it is. And if net neutrality were to,
0:12:06uh, if those protections were not enacted,
0:12:09basically what can happen is Comcast will keep picking on them.
0:12:15They deserve to be picked on. It's like, Hey, we, um, you know,
0:12:19we don't like Lipsin where we host our audio files.
0:12:22And if Lipsin can't play ball with Comcast,
0:12:25then maybe our shows are really slow to download for people on Comcast, or maybe they're
0:12:29unavailable completely, and that's a big problem, right? Because we are a
0:12:34company, like, we're in business to make money and to create content that people enjoy, and
0:12:39we are dependent on the internet being there, just like every business is dependent on electricity coming through the wall. It's the exact same thing.
0:12:45And it's scary, right? It's not just like, "Oh, you guys have a fancy podcast network."
0:12:50Like I work at an agency, we build websites for a living.
0:12:53Like it could put our business in jeopardy
0:12:56if like sort of the worst case scenario were to play out.
0:13:01- You gotta send Comcast a check.
0:13:05- Right, and like what if you can't do that?
0:13:07- Because Myke.
0:13:08- Yeah, yeah, it's not good, not good.
0:13:11And so it's really scary and it's not,
0:13:17like this is not like doom and gloom,
0:13:20oh this could happen like internet service providers are evil companies
0:13:23like there's no way around it. There's some links to the Verge articles
0:13:26over the last year or so with these sort of like traffic deals between Netflix
0:13:32and these ISPs and Netflix takes the brunt of it right because you know
0:13:36Netflix is a huge percent of the traffic in the United States and obviously video
0:13:40is very very large amount of data to move and so it's sort of an easy target.
0:13:45Does that kind of make sense?
0:13:50That's a pretty rough explanation of what's going on.
0:13:52I have a question, Steven.
0:13:56So a few months ago, my Italian carrier, which is Telecom Italy, had this promotion that
0:14:07for 2 euros, I guess, like a one-time fee, it allowed me to use the Twitter and Facebook
0:14:17apps without consuming any 3G traffic.
0:14:22As long as I used the official Twitter and Facebook apps, so not Facebook paper or not
0:14:27third-party Twitter clients, just the Facebook and Twitter apps, I wouldn't consume any data.
0:14:33Is that wrong?
0:14:34Because it was a pretty good deal for me, honestly.
0:14:37So that's kind of the flip side right like you have the sort of the hellscape scenario of
0:14:42You can't see Netflix or you can't download relay shows on Comcast, but you can on Verizon
0:14:48That's the other side of it right is that there are there's the potential for partnerships
0:14:53Between ISPs or you know cell phone carriers
0:14:57Which really are mobile ISPs with like messaging services or websites?
0:15:02And that's sort of like the other side of it is there is money to be made there
0:15:05T-Mobile does it in the US with I think with RDO and maybe Spotify as well that if you stream
0:15:11in that right Myke if you stream music or something with T-Mobile it doesn't count against your data.
0:15:17I think yeah one of the services.
0:15:20Yeah I feel like we talked we talked about that at some point. So it's it's like that is good like
0:15:27it's good for the consumer and these businesses are making a lot of money that way and that's
0:15:30that's what Comcast and Verizon are saying right like hey we need the freedom to make these deals
0:15:34like but it's really not like if there's upside to that I think I could argue
0:15:44that there is like it's not a big enough upside to to open up the risk of ISPs
0:15:50going sort of crazy with power. Do mobile do loads like Pandora, Rhapsody, Spotify,
0:15:57slack like this loads iTunes radio not beats which is weird but loads. So this
0:16:04was all the news last couple days the Washington Post had an article so Tom
0:16:09Wheeler is the guy in charge of the FCC the Federal Communications Commission and
0:16:14he has come out and said look the FCC we're an independent agency like we are
0:16:20you know we don't answer to the White House this is our decision and I respect
0:16:26that. But the reality is like Tom Wheeler is a terrible person to be in charge of the FCC.
0:16:32There's a link in the show notes, MG Siegler's written on Medium today actually. They're like,
0:16:39Tom Wheeler was a lobbyist for telco companies for years.
0:16:46Okay, can you explain this quickly to me? What's a lobbyist?
0:16:50Okay, so we'll take a relay again. So say that Myke and I had some stake in some legislation. So
0:16:55say that the US government was going to put a tax on podcasts, whatever, Myke and I
0:17:03could hire lobbyists and say "hey, we need your help to persuade members of
0:17:09Congress that this is a bad idea." Jesus, is that legal in the States? Totally
0:17:14legal. It happens everywhere Federico. Oh yeah? Yeah yeah. I'm not aware of lobbying. In Italy they do it with baseball bats.
0:17:25That's because it's done with violence in Italy. They probably do it in Berlusconi's house, I don't know.
0:17:30Right, and so you have this weird tension as Slade401 says in the chat room that, like, okay, Obama
0:17:36Obama hired Wheeler for this job, which was a huge cluster, not a good hire.
0:17:44Obama could fire him, but then he has to go to Congress to approve his replacement.
0:17:47The Congress is, as of a couple days ago, now controlled by the opposite party, and
0:17:53he would never get anybody through.
0:17:57It's this super...
0:18:00Obama says, "Hey, we should have net neutrality," but he can't make it happen.
0:18:05He doesn't control Congress.
0:18:07The guy he hired at the FCC, like in the Washington Post,
0:18:10has quotes of like, "We gotta split the baby.
0:18:12"We can't have, there's gotta be some sort of middle ground."
0:18:17And there's no upside in that.
0:18:19There's no upside in it for small businesses.
0:18:21There's no upside in it for individuals.
0:18:23It's only upside for internet service providers,
0:18:26for these huge, almost monopoly-sized companies
0:18:31that are squeezing all the money they can
0:18:35of their services. So what do you mean when you say they persuade people in
0:18:42Washington to pass or reject legislation? Do they like, do they offer
0:18:48dinners or...? They pay them. Okay. So pretty much, but there's legal ways that they
0:18:55can be bribed, right? They can give political contributions, or they can just
0:19:00give cash and nobody else knows about it.
0:19:02Or checks.
0:19:03Yeah.
0:19:04So a good example of this--
0:19:06I'm trying to find the link-- but in Tennessee
0:19:09and a bunch of other states, there have been votes up or down about
0:19:12municipal internet service providers.
0:19:14So the city of Chattanooga in Tennessee,
0:19:16where Bradley Chambers lives, they have basically city-funded,
0:19:23city-run internet.
0:19:25And it's like gigabit up and down.
0:19:27It's crazy fast.
0:19:30And there's been opposition to that
0:19:34at like the state level of government,
0:19:38which is just complete BS.
0:19:39And a lot of those people have taken,
0:19:44if you look at their records of,
0:19:47hey, I'm running for a campaign, I have a campaign,
0:19:51and you look at their donor list,
0:19:52it's their net service providers, right?
0:19:54It's like you have Comcast helping you pay for your campaign and then they scratch your
0:19:59back, you have to scratch theirs by snuffing out municipal internet service providers or
0:20:03by saying, "Hey, you know what?
0:20:04Net neutrality is terrible."
0:20:05It's really shady.
0:20:07It's the work.
0:20:09It's the number one ... I really believe the massive amounts of capital that are infused
0:20:16into the state and federal government, that is what powers so many of these bad decisions.
0:20:23and like, I'm going to tread lightly, I don't want to turn this into more political than it is,
0:20:28but like Senator Ted Cruz is like, it's the Obamacare for the internet. I was like,
0:20:33A, that's the stupidest thing anyone has ever said.
0:20:35Oh yeah, that guy sounds dumb.
0:20:37He is. But there's like, wrapped up in all of this is that there is a political system in the United
0:20:45States that is fueled by basically hatred, right? Like two sides don't work together.
0:20:50And like, we're not gonna fix that
0:20:52on our little podcast here, so.
0:20:54But it's all wrapped up in this, right?
0:20:56Like that you have this very serious legislation issue
0:21:01that is muddied by the fact that like,
0:21:06the president really can't make the decision.
0:21:08The guy he hired was a bad hire.
0:21:11And you have a Congress controlled by the opposite party
0:21:15that like, he can't go to to get things done.
0:21:18So like, I really don't know if,
0:21:21what's gonna happen with it.
0:21:23- I feel sorry for you guys.
0:21:26- Yeah, are you sure you don't wanna come to Italy, Steven?
0:21:30- Man, your balcony looks really nice.
0:21:33- Yeah, I mean, it's really huge.
0:21:35- Could I bring my three children and my wife?
0:21:37- Yeah, I mean, you can help me with testing apps,
0:21:42doing workflows.
0:21:44- This is just like one of those things
0:21:45where the unfairness--
0:21:46Are you making me your butler?
0:21:48Yeah.
0:21:49A blogging butler?
0:21:50No.
0:21:51No?
0:21:52This is just one of those things to me where it's like the unfairness of it to the average
0:21:55person just makes it seem like it shouldn't happen.
0:21:59Like it couldn't happen, but yet it's happening.
0:22:01Right.
0:22:02Like it just feels like how is this, obviously it's not, but how is this right?
0:22:07Like how is this okay?
0:22:08And like just there's so many things that are screwed up.
0:22:11Like, one, I question why Obama's doing it, or why he's doing it now.
0:22:18I mean, I know it's not a reelection thing for him, right, because he's only second term
0:22:21now, isn't he?
0:22:22Yeah, he's done.
0:22:23So I don't even get why he's doing it.
0:22:26And/or if he felt this way, why didn't he do it sooner, when he maybe could have affected
0:22:30some sort of change, right?
0:22:31So when he could have changed the leader of the FCC.
0:22:34Which also doesn't make any sense.
0:22:36Like, how has he got no say in it, but yet he can appoint someone?
0:22:39there's so many things that are wrong I don't get it and and I shudder to think
0:22:45what our email inbox is gonna look like over the next couple of days. Yeah I
0:22:49think I think people who listen to pod like overriding this for over the last
0:22:55couple days like I've only gotten like hey you're right like because it is it's
0:23:05It's so basic, there's such a huge, obvious answer to this.
0:23:13And it blows my mind that people think that it's not that way.
0:23:19The biggest revelation for me in listening to you, Steven, has been that American politics
0:23:24really seems like a house of cards.
0:23:27Yes, yes, it is.
0:23:30That's what American politics is.
0:23:32It seems really accurate.
0:23:33It's the House of Comcast, is what it is.
0:23:37Before people say yes, it was based on a UK show, but it's very different.
0:23:41Oh yeah, like the fake one, like the fake House of Cards.
0:23:45Well, that was the real one.
0:23:48Yes.
0:23:49It's the British one, like, set in the Parliament and there's people with wigs.
0:23:56People don't wear wigs in Parliament, but yes, they wear wigs in the courtroom.
0:24:01Oh, sorry.
0:24:03But yeah, yeah, the fake house of gods.
0:24:07(laughing)
0:24:09Let's take a break and thank our first sponsor
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0:26:39igloo is super awesome.
0:26:40It's free to use with teams of up to 10 people.
0:26:45And you can sign up right now at igloosoftware.com/connected.
0:26:50Thank you so much to igloo for the continued support of this show.
0:26:54We love you igloo.
0:26:56So what's next?
0:26:59YouTube.
0:27:00Yes.
0:27:01You heard of this website for videos Myke?
0:27:05I came across it in 2006 when a guy called Chad Hurley, no relation, sold it to YouTube
0:27:11along with Steve Chen.
0:27:13Steve Chen and Chad Early.
0:27:14That's where I first came across it.
0:27:16No relation to me, the other guy.
0:27:18Steve.
0:27:19Yeah.
0:27:20Steven Chen.
0:27:21Yeah.
0:27:22Mm-hmm.
0:27:23Mm-hmm.
0:27:24I will...
0:27:25Chen.
0:27:27So what is this?
0:27:28What is happening on YouTube?
0:27:29Okay, so Myke, do you want to explain, because you're more, I guess, knowledgeable about
0:27:35Google than me?
0:27:36Okay.
0:27:37I thought he was going to say about this.
0:27:38He'll say, "We've read the same article."
0:27:40So I just saw this earlier today on The Verge and just thought it should be brought up because
0:27:44it's this music streaming service which is along with photos.
0:27:47Isn't there a photos thing that we need to talk about at some point?
0:27:50We did that last week.
0:27:51This week one.
0:27:52Oh no no no.
0:27:53That's next week.
0:27:54Okay, that's next week.
0:27:55Next week.
0:27:58So basically YouTube today have announced a music streaming service but also just a
0:28:04bigger push into music in general.
0:28:06So this comes in a couple of different ways.
0:28:08So the YouTube music functionality, so basically what Google and YouTube are doing, they are
0:28:15trying to get more music into YouTube and they're trying to categorize it a bit better.
0:28:20They're setting up artist pages with discographies, they're presenting all of the videos they
0:28:25have on a certain album and/or completing them and putting all that sort of stuff together.
0:28:30And they're also in the apps on iOS and Android, there's now going to be a music tab, it's
0:28:35it's gonna be home and music, right?
0:28:36So it's gonna be split into those two things.
0:28:38So that's one part of it, so just YouTube
0:28:40trying to be more music focused.
0:28:42But they're also setting something up called MusicKey.
0:28:45It's a paid service, it's $7.99 a month,
0:28:48currently invite only, and what this does is
0:28:51it removes ads from videos that you watch on YouTube,
0:28:54only music videos, $7.99 a month,
0:28:56music videos will be removed, and obviously as well,
0:29:00this is gonna be only the official music videos,
0:29:02but if you don't have the ads,
0:29:03then you may as well watch the official ones,
0:29:04whatever. There's going to be a subscription included to the rebranded
0:29:10today Google Play Music so it's no longer Google Play Musical Access it's
0:29:13just Google Play Music. It's launching in the US and in six EU countries I've yet
0:29:19to find out which ones. So yeah I think that's it's pretty interesting. I'm
0:29:26I think fine you know more music services great I like that it's more
0:29:31than just a music streaming service obviously they've got the Google Play
0:29:33music stuff which is the streaming service but the fact that you can watch
0:29:37the the videos I mean I'm not really like a big music video guy but I guess
0:29:41for people that are this is quite an interesting entrant into the into the
0:29:47fray yeah so a lot of people actually use YouTube as their unofficial music
0:29:54streaming service like a lot of my friends when they say let me let me
0:29:58me listen to a song they open YouTube. And surprisingly, I've seen a lot of friends using
0:30:05unofficial YouTube apps to do stuff like background listening or like offline caching of videos,
0:30:12because for them, they don't want to pay Spotify, they don't want to pay RDO, which is available
0:30:18in Italy, they don't want to pay, they just want to look at the video on YouTube. And
0:30:23And also for other people like me, I pay for music streaming services.
0:30:32I like YouTube because it gives me videos like live performances, demo tapes, other
0:30:39kinds of remixes, stuff that I don't get on music streaming services or on iTunes.
0:30:48So even if it's not really meant as a music listening experience, because it's a video,
0:30:56I'm not the kind of guy that really cares about headphones and "oh, I need to get this
0:31:01fancy equipment because I want to get all that bass in my songs".
0:31:05I just want to listen to some music and YouTube is fine when you want to...
0:31:08I want to watch an Oasis concert and I got the Oasis concert on YouTube.
0:31:13Now with this YouTube Music Key paid service, what's interesting to me is that they're
0:31:19doing it just for music, right?
0:31:21So you get the officially approved videos from an artist and you can get an ad-free
0:31:30experience, you can do the stuff with background listening, you can do offline downloads, but
0:31:37this is just for the videos that you otherwise get on an artist's profile on YouTube.
0:31:44So it's not just any music video, that's what I'm getting, right?
0:31:47Yeah.
0:31:48Am I wrong?
0:31:49Okay.
0:31:50Yeah, it's not just any music video.
0:31:52Okay, so if you go to a concert and you shoot a video and you put it on YouTube, I'm not
0:31:56getting that video in music key.
0:31:59No.
0:32:00Okay.
0:32:01No.
0:32:02But if an artist says that...
0:32:03I mean, so to say you're not getting...
0:32:04Okay, it's still going to be on YouTube, it's still access it, but it's the idea of not
0:32:06being ads there. So that's what the music key gets you on YouTube. And I can pretty
0:32:12much, well, it's only going to be the people that would then get money from YouTube, so
0:32:16it's going to be the official music videos.
0:32:20So this is interesting...
0:32:21The content providers.
0:32:22Yeah, the content providers.
0:32:23This is really interesting for me, and I actually signed up for Google Play Music today, because
0:32:29I saw Casey Newton on the verge. He said that if you sign up today for Google Play Music,
0:32:36gonna get the the key music beta invite next week so I said whatever I'm curious
0:32:42to see this stuff and so I signed up and I'm really curious because YouTube has
0:32:50this kind of exclusive content that you don't get anywhere else especially the
0:32:54concerts and the like the all the other videos are really interesting for me I
0:33:00I don't like, I'm not particularly a fan of Google, but YouTube is, you know, is full
0:33:08of content basically. You get a lot of stuff that you don't get on iTunes or Spotify.
0:33:13And I mean, whatever, I want to check it out, you know. And I don't know if people who use
0:33:18YouTube for free are going to pay for your music key, because people have a surprisingly
0:33:24high resistance to ads on the web. I see that it's interesting. I don't know. What do you
0:33:33guys think?
0:33:35I think if Google Play Music, if their catalog is as good as everyone else's, then this is
0:33:43a no-brainer. As long as the app's okay.
0:33:48Is it within the YouTube app? Or the video stuff's in the YouTube app?
0:33:52The video stuff is in the YouTube app, but Google Play Music I think still has its own
0:33:56app.
0:33:57Yeah.
0:33:58I mean, I think it's really...
0:33:59Google Play Music has the app, but you're going to get a new music tab at the top of
0:34:03the YouTube app.
0:34:04Yeah, I thought that was just for videos though.
0:34:05I didn't think it was for the MP3s.
0:34:07It seems confusing.
0:34:08I don't know.
0:34:09I guess if you put the app in the background, you get background audio.
0:34:11I don't know.
0:34:12I have no idea.
0:34:13I don't know.
0:34:14Yeah.
0:34:15I mean, it seems like an obvious move for them, right?
0:34:17Because they have all this content that's being shared, like, by, like, studios put
0:34:21music videos on YouTube like on official channels so why not try to make that experience better
0:34:26and bring some money in.
0:34:29I would bet though that the Google must be giving a chunk of change to the content providers
0:34:40though because I would bet they make more money from the ads than they would from a
0:34:43streaming service.
0:34:45Because the Vevo ads at least they're non-skippable in most instances that I've come across.
0:34:50- They're like 30 second non-skippable words.
0:34:52- Skippable.
0:34:53- Skippable.
0:34:54So I mean, I would be surprised, you know,
0:34:57'cause those ones are obviously gonna have the highest CPMs
0:35:01and that's gonna be the huge benefit.
0:35:05- Yeah.
0:35:06- We'll see, I mean, I think it's interesting.
0:35:08I think it's interesting that this space
0:35:10seems to be hotting up.
0:35:11Like, I know me and Jason spoke about
0:35:14it's an upgrade this week,
0:35:15but like, there seems to be, Taylor Swift is causing
0:35:18a bit of a problem at the moment for the streaming services.
0:35:21I saw then the Spotify guy came out and said
0:35:23that they're trying to pay people more money
0:35:25and they're gonna be very open about it.
0:35:26But it's definitely an interesting space.
0:35:29I just don't know how much money there is in it.
0:35:31I don't think there's enough money to go around.
0:35:32I don't even think there's enough money for the big players.
0:35:34But we'll see.
0:35:36I personally think that this makes sense for music
0:35:40and I think that the big artists,
0:35:43they will make their money in other ways.
0:35:45the music industry as a change of business again.
0:35:48- Cool.
0:35:51Should we take a break?
0:35:52- Steven, why don't you,
0:35:54do we have to wait for Steven's rant?
0:35:56- Another one?
0:35:59I get two?
0:36:00- Yeah, so excited.
0:36:01Do we have to wait?
0:36:02- Do you want me to take a break now
0:36:04or should we let Steven complain about Evernote for--
0:36:06- No, let's take a break.
0:36:07I want to make people wait.
0:36:10- Okay, yeah, Steven wants to complain.
0:36:13Let's make Steven prepare.
0:36:15- And I'm sure that I'll fight back because why not?
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0:38:44I've prepared Federico. Are you? I am ready. Let's let's talk about this, Stephen. So we've
0:38:55talked a lot over the years about how the three of us use Evernote. Federico, you rely
0:39:00on it every day. Myke and I use it a ton for the network stuff and they've done
0:39:07some things that I'm not in love with and from the reaction I've gotten from
0:39:12these pieces other people are in love with either. So Evernote has added a new
0:39:17feature in the iOS and the OS X and the Windows app called Context. So if you've
0:39:24used Evernote in the past I'm sure you've noticed that if you were in a
0:39:27note and you know you're typing or whatever it will kind of suggest like
0:39:33other notes that may be related so if I'm writing a note with maybe with
0:39:38everyone's like PayPal email addresses in it it may say oh hey you have this
0:39:42notebook over here that's got PayPal stuff in it it might be helpful for you
0:39:46to see it right it's actually a really useful thing but they've added other
0:39:53other sources to that list.
0:39:55So now if you're doing a note, you could see suggested articles from the Wall Street Journal,
0:40:01TechCrunch, Pando, Fast Company, and a couple others.
0:40:05They announced a new one just last week, a Japanese media company.
0:40:09And it's not my favorite thing in the world.
0:40:14It's gross.
0:40:15Oh, guys.
0:40:16It's gross.
0:40:17So here's before, Myke, before you go.
0:40:22I wanted it to be fair in what I wrote.
0:40:25And so if you look in the show notes, like I...
0:40:28Sound angry.
0:40:29Yeah, I hit my mic.
0:40:32It's just ring.
0:40:34Yeah, all over the place.
0:40:36Did you point towards the computer when you said show notes?
0:40:38That's not important.
0:40:39Show notes, over there!
0:40:40Show notes are up here on the iMac.
0:40:45So like Evernote has this really like actually pretty clearly written privacy policy.
0:40:51call it the three laws of data protection and like it's everything you
0:40:55put into Evernote is private by default, we don't make money from your content
0:41:01which is not really true anymore. And so this is what they say in their turn in
0:41:09their privacy policy about context is that it's not a human, it's not you know
0:41:18It's not a human reading your notes and saying "oh I think they would be
0:41:22interested in this article". It's more like the way Gmail works, right? Like
0:41:26it knows the content of your notes and can bring in these articles. Which is
0:41:31also gross. Which I don't want that. If only you could turn it off. Yeah but it's on by default.
0:41:40They turn it on by default. That's gross. Yeah it's on by default and it's
0:41:45It's not about the...
0:41:46The thing is, if they didn't turn it on by...
0:41:48I guess they could ask you, but if they didn't turn it on by default, no one's going to use
0:41:51it.
0:41:52And they are a business.
0:41:53Doesn't that make you wonder about the utility of the feature if people don't turn it on?
0:41:56No, I mean, but they'd have to tell...
0:41:57I mean, I then thought to myself, "Well, they could just say to you, 'Do you want to turn
0:42:01this on?'
0:42:02Which is probably the better way of doing it.
0:42:03This is this awesome thing we're doing.
0:42:04Do you want to turn it on?"
0:42:05I agree that would be better.
0:42:06But if they just didn't tell anyone about it, then that would be stupid.
0:42:11But it's not that you can turn it on or off, it's that they thought this was an okay way
0:42:19to diversify their income.
0:42:22How do you know they're getting paid for this?
0:42:24How are they not getting paid for it?
0:42:26Because there's a news article about the Nikkei, the Japanese media giant.
0:42:29Yeah, but Nikkei have invested in Evernote.
0:42:32They are not paying to have, like PandoDaily have not invested in Evernote.
0:42:37How many months do we have to wait before we see the Nikkei content in Evernote in Japan?
0:42:41Oh, they're saying that they're editing it in.
0:42:44Like they've said that, that the Nikkei's content will be in the context feature, but
0:42:49they're not paying directly to have that.
0:42:51They are investing in Evernote.
0:42:52They are taking a chance with the company.
0:42:53Yeah, it's like lobbyists.
0:42:54It's like a lobbyist, yeah.
0:42:56But what I mean is, like, and can you show me somewhere that says that all of these people
0:43:02are paying Evernote?
0:43:03No, I cannot, but it's kind of obvious.
0:43:05I don't know if it is.
0:43:06Like why would PandoDaily do wanna do it?
0:43:08- Because it is a content deal.
0:43:11I mean, let's just look at the feature
0:43:13from an objective point of view.
0:43:15It's not really useful.
0:43:16I had this note about some research that I was doing
0:43:19about the retina iMac and the iPad Air 2
0:43:22during the Apple event.
0:43:23So when the context feature launched,
0:43:26I went into Evernote and it was enabled by default.
0:43:28So at the bottom of my note,
0:43:30I had these recommendations for iPad reviews
0:43:33from TechCrunch and PandoDaily,
0:43:36which are websites that I don't read,
0:43:38reviews that I don't care about, and they're just there,
0:43:42and I don't want them, and I didn't ask for them,
0:43:44and they're there in my personal notes.
0:43:47And it's just kind of gross, and it's not really useful
0:43:49because it's not, I mean, I was just taking notes,
0:43:53and now I'm getting reviews.
0:43:55What makes you think that I want reviews
0:43:57from Tucker and Champando daily in my notes?
0:43:59At the bottom of my notes, not in my notes,
0:44:00at the bottom of my notes, which, you know, it's just,
0:44:04It feels like the kind of business deal
0:44:08that they want to make it appear as a feature.
0:44:12It's really advertisements.
0:44:14And yeah, I'm not a fan.
0:44:16And I'm concerned that going forward,
0:44:18Evernote may keep considering these business deals
0:44:21and they're trying to pass them as features to the users,
0:44:26whereas they're just ways to make them money.
0:44:28- I know that on the face of it, this is how it seems.
0:44:31Like, it seems pretty obvious.
0:44:34But I just want to stress though,
0:44:36I at least have not seen any proof
0:44:40that Evernote are receiving a cent for this.
0:44:43- I mean, I think that's really naive
0:44:45to actually think that.
0:44:46- No, I'm not saying that that's what I think.
0:44:49I just said like, it's obvious.
0:44:51- No, you're right, Myke, you're right.
0:44:52- But what I'm saying is there is no proof
0:44:54that that is the case.
0:44:55- Right, yes.
0:44:57- Because if that isn't the case, I think that changes it.
0:44:59That shows it's a misguided attempt
0:45:01to provide a useful feature. - It's a really dumb feature.
0:45:03- Yeah, but it's misguided.
0:45:05I think that is fundamentally important
0:45:08that we cannot say for definite
0:45:12that Evernote are being paid for it.
0:45:13And if they're not being paid for it,
0:45:14I don't think it is as bad.
0:45:15If they're being paid, I am on board of you guys.
0:45:18But because there is no proof for it,
0:45:20it makes me think, I'm not sure.
0:45:22Like, I don't know how I feel about it
0:45:24because it's something that I don't necessarily want,
0:45:27but I can see how it would be useful in some instances,
0:45:30not all instances.
0:45:31And also it would be more useful
0:45:32If I could say I want to select my sources
0:45:37and I can use anyone, like I can have Max Stories there,
0:45:41I can have Five Tool Pixels there.
0:45:42So when I'm taking some notes,
0:45:43like if I was taking notes for this show in Evernote,
0:45:47that would be an extremely useful feature
0:45:49for me to start writing YouTube music
0:45:53and then the Verge pops up and Max Stories pops up
0:45:56and I can take links and add them in.
0:45:57Like that is useful, but it's only useful
0:46:01if I have the full control over it.
0:46:03So it feels like it's kind of an interesting idea,
0:46:08but the sources that they add are not relevant to us,
0:46:11so we're not interested in them.
0:46:12- Well, it may be useful,
0:46:13but you don't give me a page view in that way.
0:46:15You just grab a link from Evernote.
0:46:17- I mean, I think there are links that go out of the webpage.
0:46:21- I mean, assuming that you opt in, I don't know.
0:46:24Of course, there are many things, but you know.
0:46:26- I mean, as a website publisher,
0:46:27I don't really know how this stuff goes into Evernote.
0:46:32Is there an algorithm that just picks articles?
0:46:35What happens if people don't click on my link?
0:46:37Am I just being advertised?
0:46:38I mean, if eventually Evernote turns on this feature for any website, am I just being advertised
0:46:43in Evernote for some reason?
0:46:46I just feel really uncomfortable with this stuff.
0:46:49I don't like it.
0:46:50I get a Google sense from all this and I don't like it at all.
0:46:55Right.
0:46:56So that's, Myke, your point.
0:46:57This is where it stems, isn't it?
0:46:59'Cause it is very Googley.
0:47:01And that's why it doesn't bother me so much,
0:47:02but it really bothers you guys.
0:47:04- Right, because I mean, like I wrote,
0:47:06my Evernote is full of private information.
0:47:10And even though there's, I believe Evernote
0:47:13when they say there's not like a dude on the other end
0:47:16reading it and like, oh, I think they want to read this link.
0:47:19I believe that. - It's creepy guy
0:47:20looking at iPad notes. - Creepy guy, yeah.
0:47:23- Yes, this is the other thing,
0:47:24why I think that you guys are being silly,
0:47:26but it's the same instance, right?
0:47:28That stuff doesn't bother me so much.
0:47:30- But it's an intrusion.
0:47:30I mean, Evernote for so long has said,
0:47:32"We are not going to intrude on your data."
0:47:35And now they are.
0:47:36Because they're inserting content from other places,
0:47:41probably being paid for it, into like my work, right?
0:47:46Like it was great when it was my notes
0:47:48'cause that was helpful.
0:47:49And I'm not distelling the fact, I agree with you.
0:47:51I think there is a use case for this.
0:47:54Like if you're doing research
0:47:56and you can be like, oh yeah, I didn't know
0:47:57this was an article, and it's really cool.
0:48:00A, like none of their sources are particularly
0:48:02interesting to me, but it's breaking a wall
0:48:07between this is mine and Evernote,
0:48:09and this is like the internet out there.
0:48:11And that's a wall that I hope they spent a lot of time
0:48:15thinking about before stepping through,
0:48:17but what I worry about and what,
0:48:19you see this with Evernote all the time,
0:48:21like, I don't think they thought about it.
0:48:23I think they were like, "Hey, this would be cool.
0:48:25"We'll probably get some licensing fees, and let's do it."
0:48:30It feels disrespectful of the user,
0:48:34especially, this is the thing that kills me, right?
0:48:36It's the really thing that I don't understand.
0:48:38It's a premium feature.
0:48:41Like they think that it's,
0:48:42like if this is about just making money, like why not?
0:48:44But like, hey, it's turned on by default for free users,
0:48:48and for a premium user, you know, it's optional.
0:48:52it's only available as a premium feature because they think it's really helpful
0:48:55and they think that people are gonna love it and from what I've heard from
0:48:59people that's really not the case I mean look at the chat room right now people
0:49:01are like this is crazy it seems it seems it seems misguided at best and at worst
0:49:09something really icky yeah I'm just trying to have faith yeah we just come
0:49:15down to our different precision song Myke says that's not creepy I'm not
0:49:19other and me and Steven were more "yeah this is kinda gross"
0:49:23this is kind of what I least expected it from Steven I didn't know what your
0:49:28opinion of it was Federico and that was why I was interested because I knew you
0:49:33because you of us of all of us are the bigger Evernote yeah yeah I mean I could
0:49:41move out of it pretty easily there's not a lot of apps that do what it does
0:49:45specifically, you know, like having a note with like files attached and stuff, but
0:49:49You know that it's a really good. That's the thing that kills me
0:49:52Like it's actually a really good product like it's very useful. It's very helpful. The fact that it is
0:49:57everywhere like web, phone, tablet, computer, etc. Like
0:50:02That's great. There's so many good things about it
0:50:05but it's like you guys like you gotta pay attention to what's good about your product and
0:50:09And you know don't break that trust. Yeah, whether it's perceived or not
0:50:14I don't know, it's great and I love it.
0:50:16Just this feature?
0:50:19I don't know.
0:50:20The other thing to forget is business is gonna business.
0:50:25There's business in business, Myke.
0:50:28It's like this stuff costs money.
0:50:32If this is a way for them to make money because either they're getting paid or...
0:50:36They're totally getting paid, by the way.
0:50:40Show me your proof.
0:50:41you're either getting paid or they think it's a good feature that will get people to sign
0:50:46up it's like you know what are you gonna do like they've got to try and find ways to make
0:50:52money.
0:50:53I don't think Federico either way or begrudging them for trying to diversify their income
0:50:57like I've paid for Evernote for years and I'm happy to do so.
0:51:03I actually think their structure of what's available for free and what's available for
0:51:06premium is more than fair.
0:51:08I think what I pay for them per month is low compared to all the use I get out of it.
0:51:14But if you're going to diversify your income, you have to do it in ways that don't take
0:51:21your core values and what you say you believe in and even remotely approach blowing them
0:51:28up.
0:51:29Anyways.
0:51:30Yeah, I don't know.
0:51:31My blood pressure is super.
0:51:36I would have thought of millions of different ways to build and enable this contacts feature.
0:51:42I mean, look at the sources, it's not really that useful.
0:51:47I don't know.
0:51:48Oh, sick vamper.
0:51:49I don't know.
0:51:51I'm not against those websites specifically, it's just the scope of the websites included.
0:52:00not really in-depth scientific sources or technical websites. I mean, it's just generic
0:52:09news. And with all due respect, when I do my research in Evernote, I don't, and I believe
0:52:16a lot of other people like me, I don't really need the tech news from TechCrunch in research.
0:52:23I don't know, maybe just me. With all due respect to TechCrunch and Pendo and whatever
0:52:27other websites is in, it seems really generic, you know?
0:52:30What you probably don't need is obvious sources.
0:52:35If you're writing a review and you need a TechCrunch article for it, if you didn't already
0:52:43know about that TechCrunch article, then it's probably the wrong thing.
0:52:49You probably already knew about those guys.
0:52:52It's just you know it's some by default and you got all these few websites
0:52:56And you open Evernote and it's just there and you have no control over the sources
0:53:01You don't know how articles are recommended. It's
0:53:03But you can to be fair you can turn services off one by one so like if you if you want
0:53:10Pando, but you know Matthew pansorino cut you off in line to the bathroom
0:53:15You can turn off tech crunch like there is sort of some control
0:53:18But I would like I think what would be really interesting is sort of how you know how?
0:53:23Dot that go has like bang search where you and be like I can search very easily a particular website Google does it too
0:53:29But it's a little more confusing
0:53:30That would be really interesting. I say hey Evernote like I'm writing
0:53:34Let me add a custom
0:53:37Yeah, search parameters so like free for you. I'm sure you're the same way Federico
0:53:42I searched my own site all the time for like did I write about the PowerBook 180 see I can't remember
0:53:48Why would you remember? I probably
0:53:50Wow that cuts me
0:53:54Cuts me deep
0:53:56If it exists, I'll put it in the show notes for you. So you feel better
0:53:59I don't think I've ran about the 180c in particular
0:54:01Like that would be really helpful like okay take this technology and like open it up and make it more interesting and make it more flexible
0:54:09And therefore make it more powerful, but that's not what they've done. Maybe that's where they'll go
0:54:15I think that'd be a great addition for a premium user of let me have custom search
0:54:19Custom web search brought in but to have it sort of like hey, it's here and it's on by default and like
0:54:25It's super janky to turn it off in the OS X app
0:54:28You actually have to go to the web to do it. Like it's just not really
0:54:31Well done at this point. So yeah, anyways, Myke isn't bothered
0:54:35Steven kind of is I am so welcome to connect it
0:54:40I guess one last one last quick very very quick point. It is kind of crazy to me that Google hasn't already done this
0:54:46What do you mean like a keep
0:54:50Knowing Google Docs. Oh, yeah Google Docs. Okay. Well, I think
0:54:54Like there's not ads in Google Docs either because I think that Google understands that things that happen in Docs are like sort of off-limits
0:55:01To them. Yeah, so that's why I just find it crazy that they haven't done it.
0:55:04Even Google understands.
0:55:05Yeah, I guess that's pretty bad, right? That's not good.
0:55:08That's not a good yardstick to measure yourself against. Has Google done it? No. Then we should do it.
0:55:16Yeah, and like, and you can do like add-ons and you can do stuff with Google Docs, like you can,
0:55:22like the source is a pretty popular one. There's some stuff you can like bolt on to Google Docs
0:55:28to make research and sort of this stuff a little easier, but it's it's all off by default, right?
0:55:34And Google is not like, "Hey, look at this thing we shoved in here!" Like, they're sort of a holy
0:55:38Holy of Holies once you're in your Google Doc where you can't come in and do whatever you want.
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0:59:29- Pretty cool, right?
0:59:30So Federico, you told us you had a topic today.
0:59:34- I do.
0:59:35I want to talk to you guys about something.
0:59:37- Okay.
0:59:38Is it Google?
0:59:41- No, it's not Google.
0:59:42It's not Italy.
0:59:43It's not Italian ISPs.
0:59:45It's about software preservation
0:59:50in the age of the App Store.
0:59:52So this is a topic that I've been thinking about
0:59:54quite a while. I've always been fascinated by the idea of keeping stuff
1:00:00around for, you know, for reference but just for the future, I guess, and I've
1:00:07been thinking and reading a lot about software preservation, about video games,
1:00:11about old software from really old computers, and I've been thinking
1:00:18also about the App Store. So I've been writing Mac stories since 2009 and
1:00:24I've seen and I've tested and I've reviewed and used a lot of apps and
1:00:30Going back through the Mac stories archives. A lot of those apps are not around anymore. Like they don't exist anymore and
1:00:39and and that got me thinking a lot of apps are released every day and
1:00:45People talk about them people use them people enjoy them whether they're apps or games
1:00:53And then maybe after a few years those apps just die. They disappear. They're no longer on the App Store. You cannot buy them
1:01:00You cannot find them anymore in your computer because maybe use the App Store on your device to to download an app
1:01:06Maybe you you replace your phone. You don't have the old phone around anymore. So that app is it it doesn't exist anymore
1:01:14Effectively, it's nowhere to be found and
1:01:18other times
1:01:21Maybe you still have the original app around, but it's unusable because of, for instance, an API change.
1:01:30Because maybe the app depends on some kind of online infrastructure that no longer works.
1:01:36So the app maybe crashes at launch or doesn't show you anything.
1:01:40So, because I'm a big believer of the fact that software as something that is made by humans is a form of cultural expression,
1:01:50I wouldn't say art in the sense that a painting is art.
1:01:55I would say that culture is art and therefore apps are a form of human expression.
1:02:02I'm a big believer that software falls under that category and that got me thinking about
1:02:10how are we exactly preserving all this software, all these apps?
1:02:16Do we really care about keeping apps around?
1:02:19Do we care about remembering apps and the people who make them?
1:02:23Is this just a problem for me?
1:02:25This is making me feel sad.
1:02:28Yeah, it is kind of sad, right?
1:02:30Because if you think about it, it's not that apps exist just on their own, on the App Store.
1:02:35There are people who make apps.
1:02:37So I was looking through the Mac Stories archives,
1:02:40And I was remembering five years ago when I started writing the website,
1:02:46I remember for instance when Tweety by Lauren Brikter came out.
1:02:52Tweety and Tweety Two, those apps were basically the highest standard for making iPhone apps.
1:03:02And Lauren invented so many different features and design details such as pull to refresh for instance.
1:03:09He owns a patent with Twitter on the pull-to-refresh gesture, which is now a universally recognized
1:03:17way of interacting with a mobile device. So I was thinking about this and of course,
1:03:22Twitter is no longer around. So I was just considering the fact that if I were like a teenager
1:03:30today and I'm getting started on iOS development because I want to make apps and I go to Google and
1:03:37I search for examples of, I don't know, famous iOS apps or, you know, the kind of reference
1:03:43stuff that you want to know, and you stumble upon Twitter, and this app does not exist
1:03:49anymore and you cannot use it, you cannot try it. And this is true for thousands of
1:03:55other apps. And my final question to myself was, is this really important? Is there anyone
1:04:05Who cares about this problem?
1:04:07Do we care about keeping software around for the future?
1:04:11So I did some research, of course.
1:04:14And so the first example that came to me
1:04:20was the MoMA, the Museum of Modern Art.
1:04:24They are really invested in the video game preservation.
1:04:30Thanks to curator Paola Antonelli--
1:04:33she must be Italian, I guess.
1:04:35that's an Italian name, Demoma has assembled a collection of 14 video games and they're
1:04:43adding more and more.
1:04:44And these video games include Tetris and even Minecraft for instance.
1:04:48They're notable examples of popular video games that influence human culture and human
1:04:56behavior and they are examples of video game design and they are just a little frozen moment
1:05:04in human history, there is a refracted in Minecraft or Tetris, and they're essentially
1:05:11culture in the form of software.
1:05:15And these games, I mean, there's Pac-Man, Tetris, The Sims, Katamari Domasi, which is
1:05:21a crazy game for PlayStation.
1:05:22>>Cannabalt's in there.
1:05:24>>Cannabalt is in there, the iPhone game.
1:05:27So if the MoMA is really thinking about software preservation and video game preservation,
1:05:35can this be applied to apps on the App Store and maybe even Google Play Store?
1:05:41So I started reading more about the process of the MoMA for video game preservation.
1:05:47What they're doing is interesting because besides consulting scholars and critics of
1:05:53video game websites and experts of digital conservation of video games, they follow all
1:06:02these different steps to make sure that a video game is preserved over time.
1:06:08Of course, they ask for the original physical copy of the software, whether it's a cartridge
1:06:13or a disk.
1:06:14They ask for the source code.
1:06:17To make sure that in the future, if you have the source code, you can recompile it or translate
1:06:23it to another language and still use it. They ask for notes, comments about the code, to
1:06:30make sure that in the future somebody else could get the code exactly right. They ask
1:06:37for an interview with the creator of the beta game and then they try to understand the best
1:06:43way to display that kind of game, whether it's a multiplayer game, so you need, I don't
1:06:48the original console and multiple joysticks or maybe it's an iPhone game so it's a really
1:06:53quick game and you can just have an iPhone on a stand inside the museum and let people play.
1:06:58There's plenty of interviews with Paolo Antonelli but I also found an interesting article on US
1:07:07Gamer which is a great video game website and the article started by talking about the Nintendo
1:07:14Satellaview. And this is actually closer to the App Store than the MOMA
1:07:19because the MOMA actually needed to find physical copies of video games to keep
1:07:25them around also digitally for the future. But we don't have physical copies
1:07:30of apps. But it turns out that the Nintendo Satellaview, which was an
1:07:35attachment to the Super Nintendo which was only released in Japan, had a
1:07:39a download-only feature that lets you download games over a satellite connection and keep
1:07:47it on your Super Nintendo.
1:07:49So we're talking about 20 years ago, Steven.
1:07:52Yeah.
1:07:53Sounds like good stuff.
1:07:54So there was no...
1:07:55There were games for the Nintendo Sotelo View that...
1:07:58I actually can't believe this thing existed.
1:08:01Yeah.
1:08:02There were games for the Sotelo View that didn't exist physically.
1:08:06one of those games called Radical Dreamers is the sequel, I guess, to the super popular Chrono
1:08:14Trigger which is being ported to many many other platforms including iOS. Now that game doesn't
1:08:22exist physically. It was only available on the Satellaview service so of course that service was
1:08:28not really successful for Nintendo and it shut down eventually and now if you want to legally
1:08:34play Radical Dreamers, you need to find somebody who has a working Satellaview, who didn't
1:08:41uninstall the game, who didn't delete the game, who basically downloaded the game 20
1:08:45years ago and kept the console around, intact, with the digital download.
1:08:53So in this case, the MoMA approach doesn't really work, right?
1:08:56Because it's a piece of software that is on a not successful console that is not available
1:09:03physically, you cannot probably find the original team that made this piece of
1:09:09software and now if you want to play this legally and if you want to keep it
1:09:14for the future you need to rely on emulation. So I also started
1:09:20reading about emulation and you know can we maybe keep software around in
1:09:26an altered form that lets you play the original game or use the original
1:09:32program, just not on the original hardware. And of course I stumbled upon
1:09:37the Internet Archive, which is an awesome nonprofit organization that wants to, as
1:09:44the name suggests, archive the Internet. And among the various initiatives of the
1:09:50Internet Archive, which I really recommend donating to, there's two that I
1:09:56want to focus on. The first one is the console living room, which is a
1:10:00a collection of... it's an emulator system for web browsers. So it's a combination of the
1:10:07MESS, is the name M-E-S-S, emulation system that the Internet Archive came up with, combined with
1:10:14JavaScript, that lets you emulate older games in a web browser. So there's many different consoles
1:10:22supported by the console living room and some of them I never heard about before.
1:10:28Some of them I know about, like the Game Gear, there's a bunch of Atari stuff.
1:10:35So you can have these old games today in a web browser. And there's also the Internet Archive
1:10:44Software Collection, which is a software library, is the definition, that gives you access to a lot
1:10:53of weird old stuff like of course computer programs, CD-ROM images, there's
1:11:00even an archive, Steven I know this this may get you excited, there's an archive
1:11:06of old FTP websites that are no longer on the web so there's like an FTP
1:11:12archive or the old Atari.com server that you can download as a zip file on your
1:11:19computer it's like 20 gigs. This isn't just games.
1:11:23It's websites, it's programs, it's tons of software stuff.
1:11:30Documentation for old software, various multimedia kind of projects and
1:11:36files, a lot of different kinds of software. So after reading about the MoMA
1:11:43we have a couple of articles in the show notes, after reading about there's
1:11:48There's even what is called a software preservation society, which is not like a cult, it looks
1:11:56like a legit website.
1:11:58They even have a Twitter account.
1:11:59Have you been dog-genating us into this cult right now?
1:12:01Is that what you're doing?
1:12:03No, no, no.
1:12:04They even have a Twitter account.
1:12:09I also got reading about this conference from last year called Preserving AXA, such as the
1:12:16file extension, which was a conference at the Library of Congress about this very
1:12:23topic of preserving software. After reading all this stuff, I went back to
1:12:28thinking about the App Store. So Apple has a few... we need to mention a
1:12:33few facts about the App Store. Apps can be downloaded on your computer as IPA
1:12:40And Apple has a DRM system in place which is a Apple Fairplay which is used
1:12:48across the iTunes Store and App Store for music, movies and just about
1:12:53everything that Apple sells digitally. Which is important to mention because in
1:12:59the future if you basically if you want to play Apple software, App Store
1:13:07software on a device you need to account for the DRM that Apple has. So I try to
1:13:16imagine a scenario for the future and this is where I
1:13:22want to talk to you guys about this. I'm sorry for the long
1:13:26introduction but I felt that it was necessary. Eventually the apps that
1:13:33like are going to die. They're going to be unsupported, they're going to break.
1:13:39The API is that some web-based apps users are going to disappear or are going to be
1:13:46replaced and there's not going to be an update. Apps depend on people and when
1:13:52people stop caring, apps die. This is not ancient history, this is not about
1:13:59FTP websites. Even apps and games from the App Store of a few years ago, they have disappeared
1:14:05and they are no longer around and you cannot download them, you cannot play them, you can talk
1:14:10about them, you can read on websites, you can read all the reviews. And those apps were made by people
1:14:16but those apps are no longer around so you can talk about them and you can say "yeah it used to
1:14:21exist but now it doesn't exist anymore". And this really bothers me. I don't know why it bothers me,
1:14:29But it really feels strange to me that something used to exist in the age of the web and the
1:14:35App Store and now it doesn't exist anymore and nobody has a backup copy and nobody has
1:14:39an alternative. So you can just talk about it. And it really bothers me. And I wonder,
1:14:46and this is my question to you guys, do we care about this problem? Is it a problem at all? Or is
1:14:52it just me and maybe those other weirdos like me at the Library of Congress and the Software Society
1:14:58Do we care about this problem? Is there a solution for the future?
1:15:02Do we need an organization like the MoMA coming up with solutions to emulate apps and games from the App Store era
1:15:10to make sure that people in 20 years can say, "Hey, look at this Lauren guy.
1:15:14He came up with some pretty sweet solutions for scrolling a timeline."
1:15:19It means you're getting older, is what it means.
1:15:24Is it something that matters in your opinion?
1:15:28I'll ship you an old power book. You know how I feel. I think it does matter, especially...
1:15:35I think a lot about this about what we create. So like, Max Stories, 512, Relay, like...
1:15:43The stuff is only around as long as we pay our hosting bills.
1:15:46And then it's like, maybe Web Archive, you know, maybe Archive.org picked it up, but probably not.
1:15:52It was definitely something I spent time thinking about and pondering.
1:15:57And not so much in the app space, although I think that's important too.
1:16:03Because our industry does move so quickly.
1:16:07Things like Lauren's pull to refresh, that is a huge deal.
1:16:12You cannot overstate how big a breakthrough that was and its adoption and the way Twitter
1:16:18handled it legally and all that good stuff and it's like you kind of don't
1:16:23know where you are in history without knowing where you've
1:16:29been like this one reason I really enjoy like old Apple hardware and software and
1:16:33I come across this you know I don't I don't boot up my old Macs as much as I
1:16:37used to but like the same thing like oh I need a you know some like random Mac
1:16:41OS 8 point something CD to install this seems like I cannot find it so it's
1:16:48It's definitely something that's bigger than just the App Store, but something I think
1:16:50is really important, and I don't know what the answer is.
1:16:54It's great that MoMA's doing this, and it's great that the Library of Congress does stuff,
1:17:00and it's great that archive.org exists.
1:17:04Bitrot is a very real thing, and you can even get down to the micro level of your own backups.
1:17:14Do you have the papers you wrote in middle school or high school?
1:17:19I don't know.
1:17:20It's a very interesting topic because it's something that is huge and really personal
1:17:23and small at the same time.
1:17:25Yeah, because what I fear is that this stuff, this software preservation that the MoMA and
1:17:33these other people are doing, that's possible because they're trying to preserve software
1:17:38from a different era.
1:17:40Because today we have millions of apps and I fear that it is technically impossible to
1:17:51preserve all of this because it's just too much and because software moves quickly and
1:17:57because the games and the programs that these people are trying to keep around, they didn't
1:18:05have updates, they didn't have an app store, they didn't move quickly.
1:18:10it was a static, I would say, piece of software.
1:18:14So it's easier to keep around and to say,
1:18:16hey, look what I saved.
1:18:18Today you cannot say, hey,
1:18:20I want to save a copy of Tweety 2.1.3.
1:18:23- Yeah. - Right?
1:18:24- Like the App Store is gonna override it
1:18:26or the Action Software is gonna explode
1:18:28or like what you run into with like old Macs as well.
1:18:32Like even if I have the software,
1:18:34that doesn't mean I have the hardware
1:18:35and the OS to run it either, right?
1:18:37Like if something only runs on,
1:18:40you know, iPhone OS 2 and 3 and like you don't have a phone that can do that.
1:18:44It's like, well, cool.
1:18:45I have an IPA that I can like open and like poke around in, but I can't actually
1:18:50do anything with it, which is a whole nother, like it's one thing to like
1:18:54collect an archive, another thing to like keep around for actual use.
1:18:59That's a wholly different like level of pain and suffering.
1:19:02You know, what's this may sound crazy.
1:19:07Apple, as an archive I guess of all versions of every app that's ever been on the App Store
1:19:13It would be really awesome
1:19:15Even just for select apps and games to have like an App Store museum
1:19:21I know it sounds crazy and just out of this world. I just think it would be really
1:19:28nice, I guess
1:19:31to recognize at least some software on the App Store as a
1:19:37as an important piece of human culture.
1:19:42Right?
1:19:43- Yeah.
1:19:43- And I don't mean--
1:19:44- Part of it is you don't know what's going to be that
1:19:46until it's gone.
1:19:47- Yeah.
1:19:48- Like to a degree.
1:19:49- Yeah, absolutely.
1:19:50And also, how can you select the kind of apps
1:19:55that you want to keep around for the future
1:19:57to say, "Hey, look at what in 2010, this guy,
1:20:01look what he made."
1:20:02And I mean, of course you don't want some rip-off
1:20:06or scamming up from the App Store to be preserved.
1:20:10Because there is a lot of noise.
1:20:13And 20 years ago, 30 years ago, of course,
1:20:17you want to keep an FTP archive of the original Atari server,
1:20:22because that's cool, because it's Atari.
1:20:24Today, how do you pick from over a million apps on the App Store?
1:20:28How do you choose a game for the iPhone or the iPad
1:20:31on the App Store with so much stuff?
1:20:34So maybe the answer is that we cannot have the same kind of software preservation that these guys are doing.
1:20:41Because the App Store is different.
1:20:44And this is not just limited to the App Store.
1:20:47There's the Google Play Store, there's Steam, there's a bunch of different online marketplaces that you may argue,
1:20:54"Yeah, I want to preserve the stuff, but how can you do that?"
1:20:57But like you said, it's even hard on physical media.
1:21:00Like CDs rot.
1:21:02I don't, like someone in the chatroom said a couple months ago, like, "Does anyone still
1:21:06have a zip disk drive?"
1:21:07I do.
1:21:08And I take it very seriously.
1:21:10But most people don't.
1:21:14It's just this constant churn of bits, and it's really, it's like a stream, right?
1:21:19It's like you put your hands in a stream and you try to capture something out of it, and
1:21:23it's just gonna go right through your fingers.
1:21:25And it is a sign of getting older when that makes you sadder than it used to.
1:21:31I don't know, I just feel like in 20 years, if something like Monument Valley or the upcoming Space Age game isn't preserved, it seems really absurd and sad.
1:21:47Because those are games, but it's also true for apps. This is software that people sat down and actually wrote.
1:21:55It's like, in a way, I'm not saying it's like poetry, but it's something that a person made, right?
1:22:02It's just not literature, it's software, but it's still a human creation, and it feels stupid to me not to keep it around.
1:22:09Like, it really makes me upset, you know?
1:22:11Yeah, no, I feel that way about Claires Works.
1:22:14But don't you at a certain point just end up keeping everything forever?
1:22:19Like, where does it stop?
1:22:22And I don't just mean apps, like literally everything that's on the internet.
1:22:28Everything that's on the internet should in theory then go through this process and that
1:22:33is not possible.
1:22:35It's it's yeah.
1:22:36I guess I guess with.
1:22:38Go ahead.
1:22:40I guess it's it's why we need people like Paolo and Sonelli at the MoMA or people at
1:22:45the archive.org because they they this is an awful word but they curate like those are
1:22:51actual curators at a museum because they choose what needs to be preserved, but at least they
1:22:58preserve something, you know?
1:23:00Yeah, but the app store, there's no way right now.
1:23:03The MoMA's currently got 14 video games.
1:23:06Yeah, they're planning to add many more.
1:23:09I hope so, because that's not much of a collection.
1:23:13I don't know.
1:23:14I agree it's nice, but I think that the thought of it is nicer than the actual doing.
1:23:21I mean, but you know, anybody that knows me, I don't really hold a lot of sentiment for these types of things
1:23:27In actuality, I believe that I think that they're pretty nice
1:23:32But like... Don't you think there's some kind of romance to people writing software? Yes there is.
1:23:38I mean, it's something that a person made even if you despise that person profoundly and even if he charged
1:23:44Four dollars on the App Store five years ago, and he was a jerk because he asked for money
1:23:49I mean, it was a person, right?
1:23:51Yeah, but there are literally years of podcasts that I've made that you cannot find anymore.
1:23:56Like years worth.
1:23:57Doesn't that make you sad?
1:23:58No, 'cause I chose that.
1:23:59Well, I mean, that's a different thing.
1:24:04That's a wholly different debate, which I don't think we have time or the understanding
1:24:09for today of like...
1:24:12Like Myke, you took those old shows off the internet, and no matter how many I have of
1:24:18them on my raid, they don't actually belong to me, and so for me to post those early shows
1:24:24of yours on the Squarespace site, I actually don't have the rights to do that.
1:24:30And not just because you and I are friends and business partners, but that it's just
1:24:34not mine to do.
1:24:36And so there's that whole other world of, yeah, it'd be really cool if I could emulate
1:24:41an old version of Tweety, but Twitter actually owns that, and what if Twitter's not happy
1:24:46about us doing it?
1:24:47Now in 50 years when Twitter's dead and gone, it doesn't really matter as much.
1:24:54But there is that sort of idea of what can someone legally, or at least not in an icky
1:25:02way, actually archive and actually preserve?
1:25:07It's complex.
1:25:08See, that's where I wonder.
1:25:10I mean, today we go to museums and we look at the dumbest stuff from like 2,000 years
1:25:19ago.
1:25:20Look, this is the tool that Egyptians used to use to poke the ground.
1:25:25There's nothing to show even my great-grandchildren what I'm doing right now.
1:25:29There just won't be.
1:25:30Unless I save those MP3s and they have a way to listen to them and they give one single
1:25:37hoot about it, it's not real.
1:25:39No one's gonna dig up the Relay FM website.
1:25:43What I'm trying to say is, why is it that we go to museums and we look at tools that,
1:25:49like stupid tools, that people used to rely upon in their daily lives?
1:25:54And are we sure that in 2000 years, we don't want to say, "Hey, look at what people from
1:26:00the 2000s used to use on their phones to communicate with the world."
1:26:05But they'll be digging up the keyboards and the phones and the mice, like not...
1:26:09Are you sure?
1:26:10Not the bits.
1:26:11Yeah, because...
1:26:12If they find my house, they will be.
1:26:14Like I mean, the stuff like this stuff is it can never be dug up.
1:26:20You can never dig up an app.
1:26:22Like it's not possible whether...
1:26:23That's the problem.
1:26:24Yeah.
1:26:25Because it's not possible.
1:26:26Yeah, okay.
1:26:27Yeah, that is a problem.
1:26:28But you know, I mean, you say like the people have tools.
1:26:30Maybe you still have tools.
1:26:31They're just keyboards, you know?
1:26:33Like it's...
1:26:34I don't know.
1:26:35I don't know, like, I assume that there are loads of things that even the Egyptians made
1:26:41that like there's a bunch of papyrus that is like, you can't find anymore, you know?
1:26:46But some of it you can find.
1:26:48Yeah.
1:26:49It's a terrible thought.
1:26:51Yeah, see, it's a terrible thought.
1:26:55Yeah.
1:26:56I don't know.
1:26:57Maybe it's a...
1:26:58Let's just quit now.
1:26:59What's the point?
1:27:00Yeah, well, yeah, this is really depressing.
1:27:03Let's just, okay, let's have a plan.
1:27:05Let's just start archiving IPA files.
1:27:09But then where do we put them?
1:27:11I like it in the cloud.
1:27:13That's not a thing.
1:27:15I will archive the cloud.
1:27:18Tell you what, let's buy some iCloud Drive storage and use iCloud Drive to drag and...
1:27:29It's barely around now.
1:27:30It's true.
1:27:32Let's not start that conversation.
1:27:33Let's use the iCloud drive to archive IPA files from iTunes.
1:27:41Maybe in 2000 years they would say those brave souls, they trusted iCloud for posterity.
1:27:49Foolish, foolish generation.
1:27:53All right, Myke, take us home.
1:27:58If you want to catch, uh, catch, if you want to also read our show notes for this week's
1:28:02episode you can launch any browser you like, maybe Kamino, and go to relay.fm/connected/13.
1:28:09My name is Myke Hurley, I am at iMyke, I am the host of many shows on this fine relay.fm.
1:28:14I am joined as always by Mr. Stephen Hackett at ISMH, he writes at five12pixels.net and
1:28:20Mr. Federico Vittucci, he is at @vitticci and he writes at maxstories.net.
1:28:26Thanks again to our sponsors this week, Harry's, Igloo and Squarespace, and we'll be back
1:28:32next time.
1:28:33Say goodbye, gentlemen.
1:28:34Arrivederci.
1:28:35Adios.
1:28:35Adios.
1:28:36[ Silence ]