The Talk Show

368: ‘Tweeter and the Monkey Man’, With Dan Moren


00:00:00   We're in luck though, Dan.

00:00:01   I mean, it's, we've been, we've both been in this wreck a long time.

00:00:04   And, uh, in the years since Mac world rest in peace, pour one out for old Mac

00:00:09   world January announcements have been few and far between it's usually sort of a

00:00:15   dead zone before spring, which I think honestly is one of the reasons, one of

00:00:20   the Apple was not going to stick with macro expo for long anyway, they want to

00:00:24   They were shifting from a, we're one of many companies in this industry and we do things

00:00:34   that normal companies in this industry do to we're Apple.

00:00:42   My favorite story about the year we were at Macworld Expo when Apple had pulled out, I

00:00:46   was actually doing a talk on the show floor with our pals, Paul Kvassus, John Moltz, and

00:00:52   a guy stopped us after our little talk on the floor,

00:00:55   and he was from Germany,

00:00:57   and he asked us where the Apple booth was.

00:00:59   (laughs)

00:01:00   And we're like, "Sorry, bad news."

00:01:02   And in the year since, I think Paul ad-libbed this,

00:01:04   but he had the, "But I have flown all the way from Germany

00:01:07   to see the Apple booth."

00:01:08   He just looked very forlorn.

00:01:11   We were like, "Sorry to break it to you,

00:01:13   but there's an Apple store, you can walk there,

00:01:15   it's pretty much the same thing."

00:01:17   - It was very sad, sad but funny at the same time.

00:01:22   Apple, you know, who knows we might still get some springtime announcements in recent years

00:01:27   There's often been something in the march april time frame, you know, and and because they don't have these

00:01:34   uh set in stone

00:01:37   conferences like macworld to worry about they you know,

00:01:40   They just announce them when they're ready and if it's you know

00:01:43   The last week of march or it's the second week of april. It doesn't matter

00:01:46   there's no tradition really the only two things that seem to be on a dead set annual schedule are

00:01:53   WWDC somewhere in like with a starting date on a Monday with single digits in June right might be

00:02:02   the first Monday might be the second Monday but it probably starts with a single digit and an iPhone

00:02:09   event in like the first Tuesday after Labor Day in September roughly you know

00:02:15   one of those first Tuesdays in September and everything else has some float

00:02:21   that's based on their schedule but I can't help but think that when they did

00:02:26   pull the pull on pull the plug on Mac world or their participation in Mac

00:02:30   world January is just never a good month for Apple it just it's just not you know

00:02:35   Why in the world would you come out with new stuff in January on the whole right? Because you want to get it out for the holidays

00:02:41   Else you don't want to spend your holidays preparing getting something out. But here we are was right. Yeah

00:02:48   Well, it was weird too because I mean also in the past like, you know Mac world and CES always collided like and that was kind

00:02:55   Of weird and it felt like maybe yeah, you want to be it like be in the CES timeframe

00:03:00   but they weren't usually at CES or even if they were,

00:03:03   they weren't doing anything official there.

00:03:05   And as you said, you don't wanna do stuff

00:03:08   after the holiday quarter.

00:03:10   This one is a little weird too,

00:03:11   because the supposition around it seems to be

00:03:13   that they wanted to do it in the fall.

00:03:16   Like, it just wasn't ready to go,

00:03:18   so they pushed it off to the next best time, I guess,

00:03:22   whenever they're ready to ship in the quantities

00:03:24   they need to, which was January.

00:03:26   - Yeah, I pointed out, I think I might have been first,

00:03:29   I'm never first for anything anymore, but that the URL for the event video had like two 2022s in it.

00:03:38   Somebody else once... somebody else would have noticed that anyway, but once the internet was

00:03:46   off to the races on that, some people looked at those AR widgets. I don't know what we call...

00:03:53   what do we call those things? Whenever they come out with a new product and there's like,

00:03:57   Hey, you know, you can pretend you have, is there a word? Yeah, I don't know. But it's like they

00:04:03   make little, when they make new, you know, it's like a tradition they've been doing for

00:04:07   several years now. It's not just like, oh, it's because the headset's imminent, but for several

00:04:11   years they have a new product. They'll put these, they'll make these AR models of the thing,

00:04:16   whatever it is. And then you can use your phone and project it onto a tabletop in front of you.

00:04:21   And anyway, somebody poked around those AR models and or scenes, maybe you'd call them AR scenes,

00:04:28   but it's really more... But it's not really a scene. It's like putting a virtual object in

00:04:32   front of you. Yeah, anyway, they were compiled, if that's the right verb, in October 11th. And

00:04:39   people who look at such things snooping for details claim that almost inevitably

00:04:47   those AR models final compilation date is within like the final week of the event or when they come

00:04:54   out which leads you know you know and and it is interesting anyway that the the products we're

00:05:01   talking about are the new uh m2 macbook pros the real macbook pros 14 and 16 inch with the m2

00:05:11   Pro and M2 Macs chips and the M2 Mac Minis which aren't quite limited to the Pro and

00:05:21   Macs because there's also the just plain M2 Mac Mini.

00:05:25   It's all, it's not confusing when you lay it out.

00:05:28   It's a little confusing to talk about.

00:05:30   And yeah, yeah, well, and HomePod second generation, which will...

00:05:36   And HomePods, yeah.

00:05:38   Right.

00:05:39   Everybody knew that the MacBook Pros were going to move to the M2.

00:05:46   That was money in the bank.

00:05:47   I think that the first 14 and 16-inch M1 Pro and MacBook Pros were so well received and

00:05:54   were a hardware refresh, it's unsurprising that they are true speed bumps in the classical

00:06:01   sense where it's almost impossible to tell them apart other than by booting them up and

00:06:07   going to About This Mac to see what the hell Chip is inside. The Mac Mini was more a little

00:06:15   bit more of a question mark, right? Because, you know, the Intel one was hanging around

00:06:23   there for a little while. I mean, they had that M1 and so it seemed logical, obviously,

00:06:27   that you get an M2, but then the question was, why is there an Intel still? What are

00:06:32   you doing with that? Right. And it's, you know, this is why it's fun to have a podcast

00:06:36   in this space because it gave us plenty to talk about. But the basic thinking is, okay,

00:06:40   the old way, and there's a very clear division between old and new, which is going from Intel

00:06:46   to Apple Silicon, the old Intel way. At the very end, it was only for like maybe the last

00:06:52   three years, two years of the product life, but they effectively had two versions of the

00:06:58   Mac Mini, which I would describe, they didn't call it the Mac Mini Pro, but I'll say with

00:07:05   a lowercase P not as a product name, but just as an adjective. There was the pro version

00:07:10   with four USB ports or Thunderbolt ports, whatever the hell they are, and the lower

00:07:16   end version with only two ports. And at the end of the Intel era, they were all they were

00:07:21   easily discerned because the higher end ones with four ports were space gray and lower

00:07:27   end ones were silver, aluminum, same footprint, but more ports and a cooler space. In my opinion,

00:07:34   space gray color and if you're man and at lots and lots of you know there's

00:07:40   lots of people who just buy a Mac Mini as a consumer and hook it up to a

00:07:44   display and it's there that's their desktop Mac and then you know as Apple

00:07:49   is now very happy to point out there's lots of professional uses of the Mac

00:07:55   Mini audio and video production and the Mac Mini colocation with companies like

00:08:03   Mac Stadium who are not sponsoring this episode but have sponsored my show for years and years,

00:08:08   great company, where you might have lots and lots of Mac Minis together. I can't help but think the

00:08:13   color coding was a nice something, you know, a nice little way of knowing what you're looking

00:08:18   at if you're looking at like three or four of them or a dozen of them all together.

00:08:22   Yeah, yeah, well, I think it hits the nail on the head, which is that essentially it was two

00:08:29   products. And I think that's the through line has continued, you know, now to the M2 and

00:08:35   M2 Pro variants, that it's essentially like your low cost intro level computer, which

00:08:39   is what the Mac mini was originally introduced as when they, you know, came out with it almost

00:08:43   20 years ago, was like, hey, we need to convert PC users. Here's a cheap, which was at the

00:08:49   time kind of, I think, unprecedented for Apple, like let's make a cheap entry level computer

00:08:56   And then not say it's cheap in terms of the way it's put together, but like it's at a

00:08:59   low cost, which is not a market that Apple traditionally played in.

00:09:03   They were not competing with a $500 Dell that you bought.

00:09:07   They were playing in the $1,000 plus space.

00:09:09   And so they cut their costs by not having it, doesn't have a display, doesn't come with

00:09:13   a keyboard, doesn't come with a pointy device of any kind.

00:09:15   And so that was always sort of like, "Hey, you claim Macs are too expensive.

00:09:19   Well, here's one for 500 bucks that you can get."

00:09:22   it use it with whatever keyboard you have laying around or exactly buy a cheap third-party keyboard

00:09:27   if you want or whatever um yeah i guess you know we now know the answer so we're working backwards

00:09:35   but it was an open question with the existence of the mac studio from last year whether they ever

00:09:42   would do the more pro tier mac mini again because the m1 version had no pro variant it only had a two

00:09:51   port version it came you know this specs ranged a little bit within the m1 range

00:09:56   but you know only up to where wherever the m1 went without being the m1 pro or

00:10:03   or whatever and I guess the question was does the max studio start right above

00:10:10   that and that's why or were they going to do this well they you know obviously

00:10:17   wanted to. Why they didn't have a four port version in the M1 generation is one of those

00:10:23   things we'll never get an answer to. But yeah, I feel like they fell prey to timing a little

00:10:30   bit on that one just because the M1 Mini came out at the same time when the M1 debuted, right?

00:10:35   It was the first one with the Air to make the transition. So they obviously didn't have the

00:10:39   M1 Pro ready to go at that point. That didn't happen for another nine months. Right. And I

00:10:45   Yeah mid-stream is weird to to change it too

00:10:48   And I I wonder you know and again

00:10:51   This is one of those things apple never makes excuses about everything that happened during covid or even the continuing to this day

00:10:58   supply chain

00:11:00   repercussions of that whole stretch

00:11:02   Was that if covid hadn't happened might there have been?

00:11:06   a

00:11:08   m1 pro mac mini when

00:11:12   the 14 inch and 16 inch MacBook Pros were first introduced a year after the M1 Mac Mini,

00:11:19   maybe, you know, I just wonder if their prioritization of we're only going to make so

00:11:26   many of these M2 Pro chips, we've got to allocate them all to the MacBook Pros, the MacBook Pro is,

00:11:32   you know, Apple loves the Mac Mini more than they've ever loved it in its entire existence,

00:11:38   but clearly, but let's face it, the MacBook Pro.

00:11:41   - It's not the MacBook Pro, it's not the MacBook Pro.

00:11:43   That's like the flagship, right?

00:11:45   - Right, the flagship Macs are the MacBook Pros,

00:11:47   the real ones, the 14 and 16 inch,

00:11:49   and the tried and true single most important Mac

00:11:54   in the world is the MacBook Air.

00:11:56   Everything after that is second fiddle at best,

00:12:00   even if it's getting love.

00:12:01   So I don't know.

00:12:02   The other thing Apple definitely has always done

00:12:06   is they they hold spots in the lineup when they want to come back to them even it when it gets

00:12:12   awkward so i thought that continuing to sell the intel four port mac mini up until these machines

00:12:21   came out yeah i thought it was more of a sign that they were going to eventually fill that spot in

00:12:28   with a mac mini with apple silicon which is what they've done and not about we need something we

00:12:36   We need to keep selling something Intel-based

00:12:39   that's not crazy expensive like the Mac Pro.

00:12:43   Something in that price range for our pro people

00:12:48   who have, for whatever reason, they need Intel.

00:12:53   That it's scientific computing

00:12:55   and they're using Intel compilers

00:12:58   or just they need to plug and play with an Intel workflow

00:13:05   they've already got, who knows? I think it was a nice side effect. I think it's primarily just that

00:13:10   they wanted to hold the spot and they always wanted to fill it with Apple Silicon.

00:13:13   Yeah, yeah. I mean, if they had been moving to something else, like the Mac Studio or something,

00:13:19   I think they would have had no qualms about just discontinuing that Intel Mac Mini. I think they

00:13:23   just would have been like, "See, here's the Mac Mini. It's an M1. That's it." And people would

00:13:27   have been like, "I guess that's the writings on the wall for that higher-end Mac Mini." And I don't

00:13:31   think they have so much nostalgia. Nostalgia is not quite the right term, but I don't think Apple

00:13:37   cares enough about Intel to want to leave one around just for that safety's sake or what have

00:13:43   you. I don't think they really care. I think they want it to be an all-in on Apple Silicon,

00:13:47   obviously. And that's what we're seeing now with the exception, the asterisk of Mac Pro.

00:13:52   So having that there, I think you're totally right, was a placeholder for, "This is coming.

00:13:57   it's just not ready yet. But it was weird too, because it left this weird gap in the lineup when

00:14:03   the Mac Studio did come out, right? Because you could buy an M1 and it would be, I think it went

00:14:09   up in the, what, close to 1,000 if you maxed out your M1 Mac Mini or whatever, maybe slightly over.

00:14:15   And then it was like, you got to go all the way to the Mac Studio, which is two grand for a base

00:14:20   level configuration. And everyone's like, "Well, if I want something better than an M1, but I don't

00:14:25   want to drop two thousand dollars on a m1 max max studio there's nothing there's nothing in that

00:14:31   area at all in apple silicon which always felt weird and i felt like another compelling reason

00:14:35   that there would be a higher end mac mini is just to bridge that slightly yeah i thought so too um

00:14:42   so you wrote for six colors the uh you handled the mac mini jason snell handled the macbook pro

00:14:49   how would you summarize your review of the Mac Mini?

00:14:52   I think what the most important thing about the Mac Mini is,

00:14:56   kind of like you described the MacBook Pros as speed bump, this is exactly what we kind of expected,

00:15:01   right? Like we said, the Mac Mini is two products. It's that lower end Mac, but it's also this pro

00:15:06   level Mac. And of course, the ones they sent out to the reviewers were the M2 Pros, which is on my

00:15:11   desk here. So, you know, it's an attempt to sort of provide a professional level desktop that is

00:15:18   somewhere in between. You need something more than a vanilla M2 and not as much as a Mac Studio.

00:15:25   But unlike the Mac Studio, the Mac Mini has been around so long that Apple's gotten really good.

00:15:30   They know what this device is, they know what this product is, they've made it for over 20 years.

00:15:37   And it's not going to surprise you in terms of what it's offering. The specs are pretty much

00:15:43   exactly what we expected.

00:15:45   But it delivers on all of that.

00:15:47   And I will say the it really impressed me,

00:15:49   the performance of the M2 Pro.

00:15:51   I have an M1 Air.

00:15:54   That's what I was using as sort of my daily driver before this.

00:15:57   And, you know, the M2 Pro kind of knocks its socks off

00:16:00   in a bunch of different directions.

00:16:03   And then I think one of the, you know, it does it

00:16:05   in not only handily, but also super quietly.

00:16:08   That's the thing that really impressed me about this is like

00:16:11   I was running tests where I was like, you know,

00:16:13   getting all the CPUs, all the performance cores,

00:16:16   maxing them out, whatever, running graphics tests.

00:16:18   I swear I never heard the fan on this thing.

00:16:20   It is so quiet.

00:16:22   It's kind of bananas that they,

00:16:24   like I checked at one point and downloaded an app,

00:16:26   I'm like, there is a fan in this, right?

00:16:28   Let me make sure.

00:16:30   - One of my favorite reviews was iJustine's on YouTube,

00:16:35   and she, I don't have it handy,

00:16:39   but she invited a friend of hers

00:16:41   who is a out in Los Angeles, a professional colorist,

00:16:45   color grading expert for video.

00:16:47   And they were grading

00:16:50   4K or 8K footage, I don't know,

00:16:53   but it might have been 8K footage.

00:16:55   And very, very just a stressful, stressful test.

00:17:00   And watching some of the video pros like her and MKBHD

00:17:06   is for me a great way of getting practical feedback

00:17:09   from people who really push machines in ways that typically would engage fans

00:17:16   without artificial benchmarks and it was the funniest part of the video was her

00:17:20   and her friend after they'd went through it and they were impressed by the

00:17:24   performance they weren't waiting for anything and then they were like trying

00:17:27   to figure out if the fans were on this yeah right yeah and no and the guy was

00:17:32   like I think it is and she's like no that's the key light and he like listen

00:17:37   like, "Oh, you're right, you know, they had like a light in front of their studio," and he's like,

00:17:40   "Yeah, it's up there. That's the light," and he's like, "Yeah, I don't think it's up."

00:17:43   It's like, "You don't know," and it's like, "You think? Well, it's, I don't know, it's gotta be.

00:17:46   We were just, we were just crushing this thing."

00:17:49   Yeah, I like put my, I put my Apple Watch, like, the decibel meter up to the back of it to see if

00:17:55   it would make a difference. Couldn't tell it, and I had the same thing where I'm listening like,

00:17:57   "Okay, I hear something." It's like, "No, that's my Synology in the corner. Like, it's not even,

00:18:02   it's not even coming from this area." It's, it's good. I do think

00:18:07   think you know I think that your m1 air is probably I would define as the baseline that

00:18:12   would be like the 1.0 or the squared is a zero on you know the the rating scale for apple silicon

00:18:23   that's the baseline for apple silicon it's a great machine and we're you know to me it's impressive

00:18:28   that as much as we raved about the just plain non-pro M1 Macs from 2020 and to 2020 and

00:18:37   how what a breakthrough they were in performance and the ways that you really can see you could

00:18:47   feel and measure the benefits of unified memory architecture and that having this memory that

00:18:55   is shared is not, it's an advantage as opposed to being the cheaping out in the back Intel days

00:19:03   with integrated graphics. When you're doing these things that are video intensive, being able to

00:19:09   share the same memory is just, you're just, the computer isn't doing the shuffling between cache

00:19:17   and this memory and that memory that had to be done before. It's just there, it's all on a fast

00:19:23   bus, everything that you'd want to be fast in production, not just artificial benchmarks,

00:19:28   but in actual production, doing real things that you really do, man, you just not waiting for it.

00:19:34   And now here we are. And we're already like, I could see how slow those were.

00:19:38   Well, it's funny to the RAM thing, particularly, I think for a long time, you know, computer users,

00:19:45   Mac users, like you and me, like, are the conventional wisdom for so long was like,

00:19:49   like, you know, you buy as much RAM as you can afford.

00:19:51   And I feel like this has thrown me for a bit of a loop

00:19:54   in the modern era when I'm actually speccing out machines

00:19:56   like, do I really need 32 gigs?

00:19:58   I mean, the 16 gigs are pretty good.

00:20:01   And with the unified memory architecture,

00:20:03   it really doesn't feel like I'm running out of memory

00:20:05   all the time or running into that as the ceiling.

00:20:08   And I struggle with it because it is still expensive, right?

00:20:11   You're spending a few hundred bucks to go up in RAM costs

00:20:14   and you're like, oh, is it worth it?

00:20:15   I just, it has kind of thrown for a loop

00:20:18   this, you know, my conventional wisdom for buying Macs.

00:20:22   And, you know, I guess we shouldn't be surprised

00:20:25   to see the year over year improvements.

00:20:26   We've seen them, you know, with the iPad and the iPhone

00:20:29   for the last decade plus, like, you know,

00:20:32   Apple just continually every year comes out with a chip

00:20:34   that's just a little bit faster.

00:20:36   And, you know, it seems like the Mac is kind of

00:20:38   on the same trajectory, like, yep, that M1, you know,

00:20:41   the M1 from Intel is a huge jump, right?

00:20:43   That's night and day.

00:20:46   But, you know, little incremental improvements

00:20:48   year over year and all the other stuff they've added in,

00:20:51   right, the improved memory bandwidth,

00:20:54   the neural engine, graphics cores out the Wazoo, basically,

00:20:58   like all that stuff has added up.

00:21:01   And so, yeah, I mean, it is kind of wild that, you know,

00:21:05   a couple years later, it was in like, yeah,

00:21:07   that M1's old hat, it's time for the M2.

00:21:11   - I think, you know, it's very safe to say,

00:21:13   and I know some people, I'm not gonna name names,

00:21:16   but there are reviewers and commentators out there

00:21:20   who always poo poo speed bumps

00:21:24   because they're not exciting, right?

00:21:25   There's some people whose brains are wired up

00:21:29   to only get excited with the dopamine hit

00:21:32   that comes from an altogether new design.

00:21:36   But I think speed, I've always thought

00:21:39   that speed bumps are great because they're,

00:21:43   or at least they are when you're,

00:21:45   you've got a hardware foundation that you're happy with.

00:21:48   And I think, you know, for what it is,

00:21:51   the Mac Mini is pretty simple hardware to describe.

00:21:55   It's, you know, small footprint, small height,

00:21:57   and, you know, fewer or more ports,

00:22:00   depending on how much you pay.

00:22:02   I think the 14 and 16-inch MacBook Pros are fantastic.

00:22:05   I bought last year, or the very end of the year before,

00:22:10   whenever, the 14-inch M1

00:22:12   uh m1 macbook pro and i i'd same as you i i did

00:22:19   my pet thing is yes buy as much ram as i need

00:22:23   and my main ram need is my terrible terrible safari tab hoarding

00:22:29   problem where i literally have and i know this

00:22:33   bothers some people who are habitual tab tidiers

00:22:36   um literally hundreds of open safari tabs at a time and safari deals with

00:22:42   that far better in my experience than any Chrome-based browser, not to get into a Safari

00:22:48   versus Chrome argument, but Safari does a very good job of keeping background tabs from running

00:22:55   a muck CPU-wise, but the RAM adds up. And I do hunt for those tabs. I keep them open for a reason,

00:23:03   and it's like with the old days when I was swapping because I'd run out of real memory

00:23:09   because of all my tabs and I'd go to a tab that had been swapped out, then you'd get the beach

00:23:14   ball for a second or you know or even if the beach ball didn't appear it just took a while for that

00:23:19   tab to come forward whereas now it's just instantaneous. I did buy mine with the full

00:23:24   last year's maximum 64 gigs of ren. I have checked every so often. I was going to say have they made

00:23:30   enough ram for no safari they have and I and I've also noticed and I will say this as a you know as

00:23:39   compliment as somebody who's known you know and openly criticizes the

00:23:46   reliability of Apple software on a regular basis that with Mac OS the later

00:23:56   versions of Mac OS 12 and all of I switched to Ventura on my my real Mac

00:24:01   the one I work on when 13.1 came out I kind of think I could have gone with

00:24:06   13.0 and I wouldn't have been unhappy.

00:24:08   It's just that I'm a little conservative

00:24:11   just because you can't go backwards easily.

00:24:14   And I just, it literally depend on it.

00:24:17   But just a couple, I don't know, a week or two ago,

00:24:20   or probably about a week ago, I checked

00:24:23   and my uptime was like 29 days.

00:24:26   I hadn't restarted my Mac in 29 days.

00:24:28   Didn't notice, went to Activity Monitor

00:24:32   and still swap, was it zero?

00:24:34   it still hadn't swapped any memory at all with hundreds of tabs open for 29 days. So 64 is

00:24:41   obvious. That's pretty impressive. Well, and the other thing that's really nice about that

00:24:45   is it's the, you know, out of RAM, CPU, and GPU, RAM's the one where I know that I can use it.

00:24:53   So now that this year's new models go up to 96, I have no temptation because I couldn't,

00:24:58   I if I couldn't swap at all in a month with 64 I guess 64 is enough for me so yeah no that's good

00:25:07   logic I don't think I guess the other thing that I always I try to concentrate on reviews I know you

00:25:14   do too is knowing that most almost every product that Apple makes is not really intended for the

00:25:23   owners of the previous generation one to immediately upgrade to it and that's

00:25:30   part of the thing where their products are not super low price there you know

00:25:33   widely regarded as premium price but when you buy a $400 Apple watch you're

00:25:40   supposed to get several years of life out of it it's a $400 watch most people

00:25:45   most Apple watch users have never bought a watch probably even half the price of

00:25:50   of their Apple Watch. It's expensive for a watch by most peaceable standards.

00:25:55   So it should last years and years. You're not supposed to compare the Series 7 to the Series 8

00:26:00   other than just showing what is, you know, it's interesting to see what the year-over-year

00:26:05   improvements are, but that's not really the buying guide part. The buying guide is more

00:26:09   for people who own like a Series 4 or Series 5, right? MacBook Pro, if you bought a $5,000,

00:26:16   four or five thousand dollar m1 MacBook Pro with lots of RAM and maybe the extra SSD and whatever

00:26:23   else you're supposed to get more than a year or 18 months out of it for sure like I love getting

00:26:29   a Mac setup just the way I like it and then using it for years and not having to worry about

00:26:33   upgrading this or that is so you know our m1 MacBook Pro users going to want to upgrade to

00:26:41   this almost certainly not unless you know you do unless you know that a 30% difference in GPU

00:26:49   is going to save you noticeable time because you're doing 8k video exports on a regular basis

00:26:56   that peg all of the GPUs or as best that the software you're using can and a 30% improvement

00:27:02   would be noticeable. Yeah, I mean, and I think I was in some ways really well situated for dealing

00:27:10   with the Mini in particular, because I had a 5K iMac, an Intel 2017 model that basically

00:27:18   went belly up over last summer. So I was left with just my air, which is the reason it was

00:27:23   sort of my only computer for a while there. So I'd been in the market already. I was like,

00:27:27   "Well, I know I've got my Intel iMac. I'm going to replace this with Apple Silicon,

00:27:31   obviously, because it's only a matter of time." And I found myself thinking, "Well, all the

00:27:36   Apple authors in the iMac department is an M1, and they're not seemingly making a larger

00:27:42   version any time soon. So it seems like the Mac Mini or Mac Studio is something that I

00:27:47   am really well situated to review, because that's probably what I'm going to end up replacing

00:27:54   with. And so comparing the M2 Pro Mac Mini with stuff that I was doing on my iMac, like

00:28:00   you said, you get that multi-year benefit. Not only is it like five, six years newer,

00:28:05   But it's also got the transition from Intel to Apple Silicon.

00:28:09   If you're coming from an Intel computer to the Apple Silicon, it is just bananas.

00:28:14   The biggest test that kind of blew me away on the M2 Pro Mini was I did some video streaming

00:28:19   stuff.

00:28:20   Not a lot, but I used OBS and I've used Ecamm Live to do some video streaming for our actual

00:28:25   Play D&D podcast over at The Incomparable.

00:28:28   And I handle a lot of the streaming on that.

00:28:30   And running that on my Intel iMac was painful.

00:28:33   OBS was not well, you know,

00:28:36   it wasn't really taking advantage of all the Apple frameworks

00:28:41   that were available. I don't think the hardware,

00:28:44   like encoding a video or anything ever really worked.

00:28:47   They were actually using the wrong framework for display capture stuff.

00:28:52   Apple had to check in a code fix for them,

00:28:54   which is my favorite.

00:28:56   They went like, "Yeah, guys, you're not supposed to be using this.

00:28:59   That's why your frame rates suck."

00:29:01   So I finally, I'd switched to Ecamm Live because, you know,

00:29:05   those guys, they know what they're doing.

00:29:07   They're Mac guys, right?

00:29:07   Like everything is optimized,

00:29:09   ran on Apple, Silicon, Native, all that.

00:29:11   And I was pretty happy with that.

00:29:12   But for this test, I downloaded OBS to do some light

00:29:15   streaming just to test it out.

00:29:17   And I went through and like set it all up.

00:29:20   And I'm, you know, running, streaming like a,

00:29:23   playing like a game for my PS5 via the app on my Mac.

00:29:26   And I'm streaming that and I'm streaming continuity camera

00:29:28   from my iPhone and the CPU meter down at the bottom

00:29:32   is at 5% and I'm like, what the hell?

00:29:37   This would heal my iMac.

00:29:40   It would just leave it chugging along

00:29:42   and I would have terrible performance

00:29:43   and this was incredibly smooth

00:29:46   and you got the feeling that Apple really spent some time,

00:29:48   like, you know, game streaming is kind of a niche audience

00:29:51   but it's something that shows off performance well

00:29:53   and I think Apple spent the time to try

00:29:55   and make sure that something like OBS,

00:29:56   which is one of the sort of standards in the industry,

00:29:59   works well on Apple Silicon, and it does.

00:30:02   I mean, it still looks kind of crappy

00:30:04   'cause it's an open source app that's cross-platform,

00:30:07   but it performs really nicely on a M2 Pro.

00:30:11   So that to me was kind of the moment that I was like,

00:30:14   all right, this can handle pretty much anything

00:30:16   I can throw at it.

00:30:17   - You pointed out in your review what I alluded to earlier,

00:30:22   that they still have not brought back Space Gray.

00:30:25   You can get, as you said, you can get your Mac Mini in a wide range of specs,

00:30:30   but you can get it in and any color you want, so long as the color is silver.

00:30:34   I find that a little disappointing, especially since

00:30:38   they have so few colors in the Mac lineup already,

00:30:43   you know, and everybody, you know, midnight was exciting.

00:30:46   Midnight is the the midnight MacBook Air's

00:30:49   is the most exciting new Mac color in a long time.

00:30:52   And that's not saying much because that's a pretty close to dark gray blue, the midnight.

00:30:59   But the iMac, why the iMac has great colors?

00:31:03   The iMac has great colors, right. I'll just say that's great colors and there's a lot of people

00:31:09   who would like to see that spread throughout more Macs. You know, is the Mac Mini going to get iMac

00:31:17   style colors? Why not? I don't know. But at the very least though, going, it not only

00:31:23   didn't get any fun colors like, you know, red, yellow, green type pink colors, it actually

00:31:30   lost space gray, like which is really pretty sad.

00:31:35   I don't know. Yeah, I mean that is one of my few dings I think on them. The other one

00:31:40   being the Mac studio showed that Apple was willing to sort of mar the design of their

00:31:47   beautiful hardware by putting ports on the front, which I think everybody was a big fan of. And it

00:31:52   disappoints me that the Mac Mini did not follow in that I could have used just one, you know,

00:31:57   Thunderbolt or even a USB C port on the front. Like, I was testing out that feature they rolled

00:32:01   out where the security keys hardware security keys for your Apple ID. And I'm like, I've got one of

00:32:07   these Yubico keys. And I'm like, I gotta go behind the computer to like plug this in. This is super

00:32:13   annoying like i i don't understand why you aren't willing to put even on just

00:32:16   the m2 pro version like stick a port on the front there it kind

00:32:20   of that that drives me a little nuts yeah

00:32:23   especially since like you said the studio

00:32:27   you don't have to even be a mac user let alone a sort of mac pundit reviewer

00:32:35   to look at the two and say oh that's like the big

00:32:38   brother and that's the little brother you know that's this is the big version

00:32:42   big tall version of the mini, they're obviously from the same company, you know instantaneous,

00:32:50   you know they're siblings. And so that sort of, yeah okay for years we've avoided putting ports

00:32:57   on the front, you know and the argument against ports on the front is, I can't see how it's

00:33:02   anything other than aesthetic. The people who buy a Mac Mini, it's not really a showcase device

00:33:09   and it's so practical to have easy access to the front case, you know, for plugging in.

00:33:15   And then, you know, that's the whole point of it's the whole point of thunderbolt in these ports is

00:33:21   that you can you can have a literally mini form factor and expand it and you can have additional

00:33:31   SSD storage or if you want to go even bigger, you know, some kind of still use the spinning hard

00:33:37   disk to get it you know enormous capacity cameras right plugging in a camera or plugging a card

00:33:46   reader in so you can read photos from a camera and it's like there's a lot of people who shoot

00:33:52   photos with cameras that use cards and they need to connect it and it's not like oh one time i got

00:33:59   a new keyboard after three years i need to reach around the back and plug it in it's something they

00:34:03   do every day. So I... Yeah right and the aesthetics thing doesn't even hold up then because like if

00:34:09   you're sticking a card reader on it it's like I've already marred your perfect setup by having

00:34:13   a card reader hanging off of it so you might as well at least let me do it easily. I don't know,

00:34:19   it strikes me as strange. I understand like they've got the whole you know machine tooling

00:34:23   process down and they don't you know stick in a couple more holes in the case or wiring those

00:34:28   ports at the front, I'm sure it's an added cost. But if you're going to at least offer ones that

00:34:34   have four Thunderbolt ports instead of just two or whatever, it feels like it wouldn't be a huge

00:34:40   stretch to at least offer something that's a little more accessible. But I guess they are

00:34:45   committed to that being a pro-level luxury. If you want parts in the front, that's $2,000.

00:34:52   Yeah, whether you need that performance or not or whether it's in your budget or not

00:34:56   It's you know, and so there's a lot of people who if if the mini really suits their needs they'll just put up with

00:35:01   Reaching around the back every single time they need to be on the card or whatever

00:35:05   I

00:35:08   Do think from Apple's?

00:35:10   Messaging and this is where we get into the Kremlin ology part of it

00:35:18   Seems to me, you know one of going from the old Intel era to this era

00:35:23   Obviously, we're still waiting to hear the Mac Pro story, right?

00:35:27   And you know, we know it's coming because they went out of their way and in a very unusual edit

00:35:31   Yeah, John Ternus finished the studio announcement last year with we've got one more to go

00:35:36   Something I think obviously went wrong from their original

00:35:42   Plan because they did say it would the whole transition would only take two years and it's obviously going to take three years

00:35:49   And I guess and you know without delving into rumors of what the Mac Pro

00:35:56   Is going to be too much. It's you know, I think more or less it just skipped the m1 generation

00:36:03   It would be shocking if it came out with an m1 ultra or m1 extreme then that's the Mac Pro at this point

00:36:09   You know almost you know it just skip the m1. I guess it's gonna come out with an m2

00:36:14   Something I don't know what they're gonna call the chip

00:36:17   but the other

00:36:20   computer from the Intel era that

00:36:23   People so people who love it love it is the 27 inch I'm and

00:36:29   Didn't make it they you know they call the 24 inch m1. I max just the I max

00:36:38   There's no other name to them. I mean obviously they could come they could come out with a 27 inch model

00:36:43   And it would be like the MacBook Pros to get the iMac in two sizes 24 or 27

00:36:47   I wouldn't be surprised if they do that. I mean it wouldn't be shocking. I know it would make some people happy

00:36:52   but reading between the lines of Apple's marketing material and the

00:36:58   Briefings that we were offered is as as reviewers. You know which are off the record. I can't quote them

00:37:07   But reading between the lines of what they said, it seems like they're

00:37:12   steering people to think of a Mac Mini connected to a Mac Studio display as the

00:37:18   new lot, you know, larger than the iMac 24 inches 5k display. That's the answer. And

00:37:29   honestly, I know there are people who love those iMacs. I owned and used the

00:37:34   heck out of a 2014 5k iMac and it was um I loved it it was just one that you know

00:37:40   probably my favorite into definitely my favorite Intel error desktop but I

00:37:44   actually like this better because I still feel bad about the fact that I

00:37:50   I've got my my 2014 iMac is just sitting in a box now because the display is

00:37:59   still fantastic it is absolutely you know right I don't I don't want to use a

00:38:03   2014 Intel computer at all but the display is fantastic I'd still have bought the Mac

00:38:10   Studio last year display because I wanted the nano texture and I but it's a real weird shame

00:38:18   that I wasn't able to use my 5k gorgeous display just as a display I'm looking I'm looking at my

00:38:26   27 inch from 2017 it's on the floor in my office because I haven't figured out what to do with it

00:38:31   But I have the same feeling because it's like for a while there.

00:38:33   We had that the target display mode where you could use an iMac

00:38:37   as a display. It was a very small window.

00:38:39   Yeah, let you do that.

00:38:40   And it does feel like a shame because I'm sitting here thinking like,

00:38:44   I mean, the panel is basically the same in the studio display is in this iMac.

00:38:48   Like I went out and spent a lot of money and, you know, had to buy

00:38:51   another thing to duplicate that where it would have been nice

00:38:54   if I could have just plug this Mac mini into that iMac and been done with it.

00:38:57   But yeah, it's not.

00:38:59   I guess that's just too expensive to do as a piece of technology. I don't know. It struck me

00:39:07   as strange as well. You could see even in the press releases when they talked about the M2 Pro

00:39:12   Mac Mini and the announcement press release they put out, they compared it to a 27-inch Intel iMac

00:39:18   as a performance thing. Clearly, yeah, this is how we're positioning this. So I can't argue with it.

00:39:25   And I agree, I like the idea that at least when I,

00:39:28   you know, if I buy an M2 Pro Mac Mini

00:39:30   and I use it for a few years,

00:39:31   I can swap it out and keep the display.

00:39:33   That's assuming they haven't made, you know,

00:39:35   another fancy new display,

00:39:36   but I'm sure this one will keep working for the interim.

00:39:39   So I'm invested now, and it does raise the price too, right?

00:39:42   Like buying a Mac Mini and an Apple Studio display.

00:39:45   If you're buying an M2 Pro and a Mac Mini,

00:39:47   so you're talking a couple thousand dollars, $2,500,

00:39:50   which is, I guess, around the price you paid

00:39:51   for a 2070-inch iMac, but it, you know,

00:39:53   Hopefully the investment pays out a little bit longer

00:39:56   and you can keep these hardware sort of rotating through.

00:39:58   - Yeah, I don't think it's any exaggeration.

00:40:01   I know in our racket it's pretty hard to say

00:40:03   blank is gonna still be useful in 10 years,

00:40:05   but I think a MacStudio display you buy now

00:40:08   is very likely to be a very good,

00:40:09   credible display 10 years from now.

00:40:13   And so who knows how many Mac Minis you might upgrade

00:40:16   between now and then, and you're saving

00:40:19   tremendous amount of money by just plugging it back

00:40:22   into the MacStudio display you already own.

00:40:24   - Yeah.

00:40:25   - And it's not just, it is environmentally sound, right?

00:40:29   Not to be making all these displays that you, you know,

00:40:33   just put in your basement like mine

00:40:35   or put on your office floor like yours.

00:40:37   But it's just more cost effective to think of the display

00:40:42   as a modular part of your desktop.

00:40:44   And I know, you know, people who really, really love

00:40:49   the all-in-one don't wanna hear it,

00:40:50   But to me, that's a better solution.

00:40:53   I don't think they're ever gonna come back

00:40:55   with a bigger iMac again.

00:40:57   I wonder, I guess rumors say there's going to be M2 iMacs.

00:41:02   I wonder, I don't know, I guess I've seen some rumors

00:41:05   that say the iMac might wait 'til the M3.

00:41:07   I wonder about the iMac period,

00:41:09   whether or not it has a future.

00:41:12   Is all-in-one, does it really make sense

00:41:15   for a desktop anymore?

00:41:16   I'm not sure that it does.

00:41:19   I think there's still a niche there, right? Because, I mean, and this is evidenced by

00:41:23   the fact that the iMac, like the Mac mini, was an M1 only machine, right? There's never

00:41:27   an M1 Pro variant. And it doesn't, we don't know whether there will be one in the future,

00:41:32   but that really firmly put it in the consumer level camp, right? This is not,

00:41:36   you can't even spec up an M1 iMac to be like, "Hey, I just want an M1 iMac with some more juice."

00:41:40   Like, nope, that's what you got. So I think that kind of will tell us to a certain degree,

00:41:46   if Apple decides whenever it does the next reversion of the iMac to say, "Okay, we also

00:41:52   offer an M1 pro," or, "No, it's still a pro-level chip," or whatever generation we're on, or

00:41:57   it's still just the vanilla base-level chip, I think that's a pretty good indication of

00:42:01   where the future of that product might be.

00:42:04   The other reading between the lines thing that I detected that I'm very intrigued by

00:42:09   is to me, and again, this is all gut feeling. I can't prove it. I don't, my notes from,

00:42:17   I have all my notes from 15 years of briefings with Apple people, but my notes aren't proof of

00:42:24   it. But it feels to me like Apple themselves represent, you know, product marketing folks

00:42:30   in the Mac division are talking about games on the Mac more than ever, ever in my career.

00:42:36   you'd have to pre-date my writing during fireball and having press access to apple

00:42:41   may i don't but maybe even going back forever that maybe they're talking about games and

00:42:48   these are good for games since at least steve jobs came on stage to talk about halo back yeah

00:42:53   macworld expo yeah thousand or whatever uh you know the gaming thing you know i i played a lot

00:43:01   of games on the Mac and other various platforms. I've built gaming PCs. I have a, I think I have

00:43:07   every major console currently. So I, you know, I've played a lot of games and the gaming on the

00:43:14   Mac problem has always been this, this tough, weird nut to crack. I think the fundamental issue

00:43:19   for me is that Apple does not, as much as they talk up gaming, they don't really get it. When

00:43:24   Steve Jobs would talk about the iPod and he would talk about music, you could tell that Steve felt

00:43:30   personally passionate about music, right? He was into music. That was a product that, like,

00:43:36   I think really resonated with something in the soul of Apple and of the way that he saw the

00:43:41   business going. Then you could tell, like, when he would talk about, like, buying TV shows or renting

00:43:45   movies, he's like, "Yeah, it's fine." He doesn't really care. It's like a box to check. And I think

00:43:49   gaming is a thing that, despite the fact that, you know, there are so many gamers out there and

00:43:54   everybody of a certain age now, including, I assume, majority of people who work in Apple

00:43:59   in many of the roles, at least below the C-level, are gamers or have played games in their lifetime.

00:44:05   But you never got the sense from a cultural standpoint that they really got it. Like,

00:44:11   I think there's always a little degree of snobbery around it, like, "Oh, games, that's fine if you

00:44:16   want to." And it's not because these machines are not very capable gaming machines. If the developers

00:44:23   spend the time working with the tools that Apple provides, and they showed off a few games during

00:44:28   during their keynote, little keynote video.

00:44:31   They run really well.

00:44:33   I ran the Resident Evil Village,

00:44:35   which has been really optimized to work with Metal

00:44:37   and all that.

00:44:38   And it looks great, honestly.

00:44:40   Like, yeah, I put it up against a console, no problem.

00:44:43   But the issue is that there aren't that many,

00:44:45   like that's one title among hundreds, right?

00:44:49   If not more.

00:44:50   And it's just that most game developers

00:44:53   are not spending the time investing in the tools

00:44:56   that Apple is offering.

00:44:57   They want to build stuff that works on the PCs

00:45:00   and works on consoles.

00:45:01   And if you were a gamer, even if you were a diehard

00:45:05   Mac user and a gamer for the last 20 years,

00:45:08   at a certain point you probably gave up, right?

00:45:10   It was just like, ah, it's just too much trouble.

00:45:12   Like there's not enough stuff and I can't get it.

00:45:14   You probably went to a console or maybe built a gaming PC.

00:45:17   And I think then you end up with this chicken

00:45:18   and egg problem, which is like, there's not enough games

00:45:21   because there's not enough demand,

00:45:22   but there's not enough demand

00:45:23   because everybody left the platform.

00:45:24   So it's tough and I think Apple wants to get out of it,

00:45:27   but it's a really hard nut to crack.

00:45:28   - Yeah, it really is a chicken and egg problem.

00:45:30   Let's see, there's the Resident Evil,

00:45:32   what's it called, Resident Evil blank village.

00:45:35   And the other one there--

00:45:37   - Which was written by Antony Johnston,

00:45:39   who you may know, who's a frequent in-com,

00:45:41   in-com poll panelist, he did the,

00:45:42   wrote the script for that one.

00:45:44   - Huh, I did not know that.

00:45:46   - Yeah, yeah, yeah, he won some awards for it too, I think.

00:45:49   So I started playing it, I only got through,

00:45:52   I don't do horror games, really,

00:45:53   I only got through like--

00:45:54   - Oh, I hate that.

00:45:56   made me go into it like I do like a creepy cabin. I didn't

00:45:59   even see a zombie john I went to a creepy cabin I was like I'm

00:46:02   done I used to play a lot more games never liked horror games

00:46:06   for that reason I do watch horror movies I've said this

00:46:08   before my family and I we my wife and son like them much more

00:46:12   than I do I'm I'm I'm not embarrassed to admit I get I get

00:46:16   really creeped out and I I could I don't like watching them by

00:46:20   myself for sure I wouldn't do it and but that's what playing a

00:46:22   god video game is like right you don't play a video game with

00:46:25   your family. It's immersive, too. But it's like, I need my son and my wife next to me

00:46:29   on the couch so I can grab them. I need somebody to squeeze a hand or something. I really do.

00:46:36   Play it in daylight, too, let me tell you. Otherwise...

00:46:38   What's the other one that they're talking about? I think it's No Man's Sky.

00:46:41   It's talking about No Man's Sky, but here's the thing with No Man's Sky, and I've played

00:46:44   that game on my Xbox. It's not new. It's several years old at this point, and it's a game that

00:46:52   iterated like they've come out with updates to it and stuff like that.

00:46:55   And it's still a very demanding game, but it's also, I want to say it's like 2016.

00:47:00   Yeah, maybe, maybe a little later, but it's not new.

00:47:03   Right. It's demanding.

00:47:04   It's open world. I mean, literally open worlds, right?

00:47:07   The whole idea is it's like a galaxy full of planets and each planet is different.

00:47:12   And the demos I saw of it,

00:47:16   it looks visually impressive on the Apple Silicon.

00:47:20   But No Man's Sky is all my understanding, this is very much informed by my son,

00:47:24   who's, you know, very much a real gamer, that No Man's Sky is a very odd game. It's just sort of

00:47:30   on its own in the industry. It's not like a typical AAA title. It's sort of, they've been

00:47:36   marching to the beat of their own drummer forever. Had sort of a rocky launch, you know, it's like

00:47:43   many games took longer to launch than they wanted to. Launched in a sort of incomplete shape and

00:47:49   and maybe left a poor first impression because of that,

00:47:53   but have spent nonstop for those five or six years

00:47:58   iterating and improving on it.

00:48:01   But they're out on their own,

00:48:02   and so it's not surprising to me

00:48:04   that because they're different

00:48:06   than the typical PC and console AAA titles,

00:48:11   that they've also got a source code base

00:48:14   and backend engine that is amenable to this,

00:48:19   Whereas the problem with so many AAA titles,

00:48:23   the chicken and egg problem, is that these,

00:48:26   like Unity and what's the other one, the big game engine,

00:48:31   Unreal, the Epic one, are just,

00:48:34   and yes, they have a story, there's a path,

00:48:38   because you can make these games and they run on iPhones,

00:48:42   because the iPhone is this huge market, so there's a path.

00:48:46   But when it comes to desktop-type hardware,

00:48:49   the tooling is all based on the Intel world,

00:48:53   including if not even more important than,

00:48:56   certainly more important than CPU.

00:48:57   I shouldn't even speculate.

00:48:59   The GPU world of--

00:49:01   - GPU, yeah.

00:49:02   - You know, NVIDIA video cards,

00:49:04   which is a different world.

00:49:07   And also, unfortunately for Apple,

00:49:10   Apple Silicon has a much stronger lead

00:49:14   just objectively, by any measure, over the Intel and the whole x86 world CPU-wise than

00:49:28   the Apple Silicon GPUs do versus the state of the art from Nvidia, where, okay, Apple's,

00:49:35   I think, clearly leads on performance per watt, but Nvidia clearly leads on performance

00:49:42   period, who cares how hot it is,

00:49:45   get a liquid cooling system and, you know,

00:49:47   make your neighbors' lights blink

00:49:50   when you're pegging all the GPU cores.

00:49:53   Apple doesn't have an answer for that yet,

00:49:56   and therefore, you know, and one of the things

00:49:59   that pegs video cards are games, right?

00:50:02   So if you're writing a game to squeeze out

00:50:05   the best possible graphics at the highest

00:50:08   possible frame rates, there's a reason

00:50:12   that your tooling was optimized for that world.

00:50:15   And it doesn't, there is no way to just,

00:50:17   oh, just flip a switch and spit out a version

00:50:19   for Apple Silicon.

00:50:20   - Right, yeah, yeah, that's always been the challenge,

00:50:23   right, back in the days of DirectX and stuff

00:50:25   when Microsoft had really sort of invested in,

00:50:28   like, let's sort of build this out, this architecture,

00:50:30   and make it interesting for gaming.

00:50:32   I mean, I think you're also, the point about, like,

00:50:34   games being something that really challenges the GPU.

00:50:37   I'd argue they're the thing that, you know,

00:50:40   most people is going to encounter, right?

00:50:42   Like, there are other uses that will peg a GPU,

00:50:45   but for the average Mac user slash computer user,

00:50:50   the amount of GPUs that's in any Apple Silicon chip

00:50:54   is overkill.

00:50:55   - Zillions more people are playing video games

00:50:57   that press their desktop PC GPU

00:51:02   compared to how many people whose video export needs

00:51:06   are doing the same.

00:51:07   It's orders, several if not many,

00:51:11   orders of magnitude difference.

00:51:13   But it's interesting to me that Apple seems to care,

00:51:15   and I don't think it's a passing fad.

00:51:18   I've just, over the last couple years,

00:51:20   I've just heard, just here and there,

00:51:25   and just sort of offhand, off the record remarks

00:51:28   of people at Apple who've heard me talking on my podcast

00:51:32   that I have had, or still have a teenager,

00:51:34   I guess he still is a teenager, he's 19,

00:51:36   teenage son in my family who still wanted a gaming PC and you know and people at Apple who found that

00:51:44   curious and wanted to know more about it but I think that also speaks to what you said about

00:51:49   that there's a lot of people at Apple who just are that whole world is so foreign to them whereas

00:51:53   there's a lot of other people I'm sure there's thousands and thousands of people listening to

00:51:58   this episode of the show who are gaming enthusiasts who know they don't need me to explain why my

00:52:04   teenage son wanted a gaming PC. They're like, "Of course he did!"

00:52:07   Right, I mean, yeah, yeah. I mean, you look at the, you know, Apple executive bio page,

00:52:13   and you try to figure out, okay, which one of these people is a gamer? It's not Tim Cook,

00:52:17   it's not Jeff Williams, right? Like, the feeling, I don't know, maybe Schiller played some games in

00:52:22   his day, probably, but I think probably not recently. You know, Schiller might be the one,

00:52:26   because Schiller, wasn't there a story? Like racing games? Yeah, no, and that he, somehow,

00:52:30   it can't forget how this came out it wasn't like a but he's got like uh some kind of like uh

00:52:37   like a formula one simulator like a dedicated setup like with a like a like a car seat and a

00:52:44   car steering wheel and like a wraparound display you know which is almost certainly got a

00:52:49   pc under the hood somewhere um right right yeah so maybe he's the answer yeah all right yeah i guess

00:52:56   i guess no i like you need that's what you need you need somebody in there who is going to take

00:52:59   like is the evangelist for gaming. I'd love to see it because the Mac is great.

00:53:02   Well, and the other thing too is I think, you know, Apple's been so successful in so many ways,

00:53:07   but they're at their best like anybody when they're the upstart and they've got something

00:53:11   to prove and there's somebody who's clearly ahead of them, right? So, you know, an Apple that's

00:53:18   focused on trying to make the Mac relevant to desktop gaming is an Apple I like, not just,

00:53:24   not because I personally foresee myself therefore getting back into desktop gaming,

00:53:28   but I just think it's good for Apple to see where it's behind and to try to attack it.

00:53:33   One last thing on these M2 Macs from this month is the

00:53:39   sad trombone, sad news, is this thing about the slower SSDs compared to the preceding

00:53:48   model at the same storage or price. I forget which ones. It's like at the lowest.

00:53:55   maybe correct me with details if you know them off the top of your head, but basically it's like if

00:53:59   you get like the 512 gigabyte one, it used to be two 256 gigabyte SSDs on the board. You don't know,

00:54:10   you know, you wouldn't know that you never look at it, right? But that's how it's implemented.

00:54:13   And now it's just one 512 SSD. And you get performance advantages from having two of them

00:54:24   that can work in parallel and you could be reading from one while writing to the other and

00:54:29   basically there are first disc intensive tests the new ones might be at the lower end slower than the

00:54:38   old ones and some people i take this as a well that sucks that's unfortunate but i'm sure that

00:54:45   apple knew that and i'm sure there's good reasons for the total cost of goods for the device and

00:54:51   It's only true for these lower end storage models.

00:54:54   And it sucks if you're on a budget and you want the disk speed, but your budget is capped.

00:54:59   And now you've got to choose between like finding an old M1 one that's still available to sit to buy

00:55:06   somewhere to get slightly better SSD performance or having to take a downgrade in SSD performance

00:55:14   compared to the first generation of these Mac minis. But it doesn't affect the people who are

00:55:19   buying like the one terabyte and over ones, which I think are more typical for people who care at all

00:55:25   about their SSD. Right. Yeah, that's, I mean, that's the kind of the nut of this. I mean,

00:55:30   there's a couple things happening here, one of which is, you know, I was listening to Jason

00:55:35   Snell and Mike Hurley talking about this and, you know, saying that if Apple had just said,

00:55:42   "This is fast SSD and this is a faster SSD," no, there would be no issue, right? Like, they know,

00:55:47   And, and, you know, it was going to come out because people are going to benchmark this.

00:55:51   Didn't come out immediately because as we mentioned earlier, the reviewers got the M2 pros.

00:55:55   But I don't think anybody got the M2 pro with the base level,

00:55:58   right? Wrong. No, I don't think so. I think most of us got ones were kicked up a bit.

00:56:03   And so, you know, obviously it's not going to show up until like people start getting them.

00:56:07   Two, is it that big a deal? Like you said, it's really for disc intensive tests. I think the best

00:56:13   analogy you could come up with is if you bought a car and the advertiser said, "This car will go

00:56:17   150 miles an hour," or top out on 150 miles an hour, and you got it, it's like, "It only goes

00:56:21   to 120," which is a difference, right? You paid for it thinking it would go to that higher speed,

00:56:27   but you're also not going to be driving even 120 miles per hour, much less 150 miles per hour,

00:56:32   unless you're doing some serious specialized racing or something like that. So, both is

00:56:38   something they should have disclosed and a real-world performance. It's probably not

00:56:42   it's not gonna matter for most people.

00:56:44   But that is frustrating,

00:56:45   'cause it feels like an unforced error.

00:56:47   Like Apple, you mentioned this thing's got,

00:56:49   you know, 200 megabits per second,

00:56:51   I don't remember, give it memory bandwidth, right?

00:56:53   You're giving the feature and saying,

00:56:53   "The Pro's got twice as much as the vanilla M2."

00:56:57   You could've just added a line in specs,

00:56:58   and then nobody would've cared.

00:57:01   - Yeah, and I think that's the thing

00:57:02   that gets lost in the criticism.

00:57:04   It sucks, it's a minor, like I said,

00:57:06   a little sad trombone, wah-wah, sorry.

00:57:10   I'm sure Apple wishes it weren't so,

00:57:11   But we're still talking about overall fast SSD performance

00:57:16   anyway, that the slowest SSD Apple sells in any of these

00:57:18   Apple Silicon Macs, Alfred is a very good IO

00:57:22   for reading and writing, and at those price points,

00:57:25   it's almost, it's gonna be extraordinarily rare

00:57:29   that anybody who owns one is going to notice, I think.

00:57:32   So I don't think it's a big deal.

00:57:33   But worth mentioning.

00:57:35   All right, let me take a break here

00:57:36   to thank our first sponsor of the show.

00:57:38   It is our good old friends at Squarespace.

00:57:42   You guys know Squarespace.

00:57:43   It is the all-in-one platform for building your brand,

00:57:47   growing your business online.

00:57:50   You can stand out with a beautiful website,

00:57:52   engage with your audience, and sell anything.

00:57:55   You can sell products,

00:57:56   you can sell the content you can create.

00:57:58   You can even sell your time

00:57:59   right through your Squarespace website.

00:58:01   You go to, what do you do?

00:58:03   You go to squarespace.com/talkshow.

00:58:05   Go there to get started.

00:58:06   You get a 30 day free trial.

00:58:08   The 30 day free trial is unlimited.

00:58:10   It has no limits just because you're on a free trial.

00:58:12   There's no watermark on your site.

00:58:15   You're just full fledged Squarespace user

00:58:17   for 30 days free of charge.

00:58:20   They have hundreds of templates to choose from.

00:58:22   They look great.

00:58:24   You can just use one, boom, you're done.

00:58:27   You can start from scratch with your own design

00:58:30   if you know how to do web design.

00:58:32   You could take one of their templates

00:58:33   and adjust it to your heart's content.

00:58:36   Anything in between, do it all WYSIWYG in your browser,

00:58:41   what you see, what you get, dragging stuff around,

00:58:44   adding features to your website through drag and drop,

00:58:47   taking ones away from a default template

00:58:49   'cause you don't need them or want them.

00:58:51   Or if you wanna get in and mess around,

00:58:53   roll your sleeves up, get in there with the CSS,

00:58:55   the JavaScript, the actual HTML, you can do that too.

00:58:58   Whichever level of code you want,

00:59:01   including none, you can do.

00:59:04   They've got everything else you need.

00:59:06   Domain name registration, they can do it.

00:59:08   Member areas where you can monetize your audience

00:59:12   right there on your Squarespace website

00:59:14   and create things like newsletters or have videos

00:59:19   that are only available to the paying members of your site.

00:59:22   They handle all of that, the payments, the gating,

00:59:25   the access, all of that they handle for you.

00:59:28   Built-in analytics, online stores, you name it,

00:59:32   they've got it.

00:59:33   It is a great place to build a website.

00:59:35   It is a great place to send the people you know,

00:59:38   when people you know in your life,

00:59:39   your friends and family need a new website.

00:59:41   Send them to squarespace.com/talkshow.

00:59:46   Free trial, 30 days, and when they're ready to launch,

00:59:49   just remember that same code, talk show.

00:59:51   Know the, just talk show.

00:59:54   10% off your first order,

00:59:55   and you can prepay for up to a year.

00:59:57   10% on a whole year, just because you listen to the talk show.

01:00:00   Home pods, Home Pod 2.

01:00:03   I got I got review units last week the reviews dropped

01:00:07   I believe as we list as this show will air this morning. The reviews are supposed to drop on

01:00:13   Tuesday the 31st

01:00:16   More interest I have more to say about the weird two-year gap

01:00:23   Between the old one being discontinued and no longer being for sale than the new ones. The new ones are

01:00:30   The home pods back, you know, I don't know what else to say about it other than I'm delighted as a as a

01:00:36   home pod fan and

01:00:39   Someone who's was terribly upset that they just continued them

01:00:42   To my ears they sound as good or better

01:00:47   I know that some people looked at the tech specs and I think the old ones had seven tweeters and the new ones only had

01:00:54   Five and the old ones had more microphones and the new ones have fewer

01:00:59   To me, it's the sound quality is as good or better. I think counting tweeters as a measure of

01:01:06   Yeah, audio quality is a fool's errand

01:01:09   Really? I just ridiculous

01:01:12   I

01:01:14   Think it's like it's like counting megapixels is your yes exactly, you know, yeah, and maybe even worse though, right?

01:01:20   It's like at least with megapixels. There's some technical argument

01:01:24   There's a translation.

01:01:25   - Right, if you really are shooting a photo

01:01:27   that you wanna blow up to billboard size,

01:01:29   the megapixels might matter in some way.

01:01:31   But yeah, I would say with the tweeter count,

01:01:35   I think it's possible that someone

01:01:38   with audio file style hearing,

01:01:40   which I don't have or taste, might decide,

01:01:43   I wouldn't be surprised when I read these reviews

01:01:46   that some people say, I mean, who knows?

01:01:48   Maybe they're gonna say it doesn't sound as good.

01:01:50   To me, they sound as good,

01:01:51   and I have got several pairs of OG HomePods here

01:01:54   that I've played mine against,

01:01:57   seems to sound the same to me at the volumes

01:01:59   that any reasonable volume I would use in my house.

01:02:03   I wouldn't be surprised if people say they sound better,

01:02:07   you know, that Apple's audio wizards,

01:02:09   their hardware speaker team has made it sound better.

01:02:12   It seems to me this is something that is impossible

01:02:17   to put your finger on, could easily be the placebo effect.

01:02:20   It seems to me that Siri responsiveness is in fact better than on the OG home pods that

01:02:27   it's, you know, some combination of upgrading to the S7 chip.

01:02:32   Yeah, I'm not, I'm not sure it could be worse. I say as somebody with a stereo pair of original

01:02:39   home pods in my office and I've got a home pod mini downstairs and I, Oh man, the number

01:02:43   of times I've asked these home pods to do something and they just completely misinterpret

01:02:47   I mean, I don't think any, nobody has ever, I think, really thrown shade on Apple for

01:02:51   the sound quality of the HomePod, right? Like, that was not the problem with Gen 1. They

01:02:54   always sounded great. It was everything else.

01:02:57   >> Right. I think there's, you know, a couple little details are nicer. Did you get it?

01:03:05   Did you have them yet or no? I don't even know.

01:03:07   >> No, I do not know.

01:03:08   >> I will answer what was one of my top questions is what does Midnight look like? The pair

01:03:14   that I got from Apple. One was white, one is midnight, so I can see both, which I'm

01:03:19   glad. I'd certainly never buy them this way to pair them, but uh...

01:03:23   Mix match, yeah, sure.

01:03:24   It is... oh boy, it is... it does not look blue to me at all, unless, depending on the

01:03:34   exact... if it's in the exact right nice neutral light, I can pick up a slight amount of blue,

01:03:41   but the ever so slight, I mean it is a very dark gray. Side by side with the old one in space gray

01:03:49   to me in most of the lighting, and I carried it around my house like an idiot, one in each hand,

01:03:55   you know, like I'm carrying two pineapples around or something. In most of the rooms of my house,

01:04:03   under most lighting, it just looks darker than the old space gray from the first generation. Just

01:04:08   looks like even closer to black which is great for me I don't want one there with

01:04:13   a bluish tint I think I think you want something like a speaker to be neutral

01:04:17   to me it's very neutral the compare and contrast with apples use of you know

01:04:23   they love midnight right now midnight's having its moment right yeah the the

01:04:29   MacBook Air to me is as a noticeable blue tint on the other hand some of the

01:04:37   The Apple Watch straps that they call Midnight are very...

01:04:41   Boy, you really gotta look to see the blue in 'em.

01:04:45   They're just sort of the new black.

01:04:47   The HomePod is like that.

01:04:48   It is close to black.

01:04:50   The plug, the power plug, now comes out of the back.

01:04:55   - Oh, thank you.

01:04:56   - I don't know why I care, but I do care.

01:04:58   I don't know why it--

01:05:00   - It was just, it was annoying to think

01:05:02   your cable would die or like it frayed or something,

01:05:06   be like I got my own you open otherwise it's a home pod and it's back and so

01:05:12   does it I I'm just going by you did share picture I'm just going by the the

01:05:17   so the screen is like it's it's it's mini style where it's slightly some yeah

01:05:21   I think compared well the old one was like yeah whatever you want to call that

01:05:25   thing on top the touch panel because it's not a screen is is generate it's it

01:05:30   is no more of a screen than the other one it just shows the same sort of fuzzy

01:05:34   animation it is sunken now for some reason I don't know I don't know why you

01:05:40   know it I don't think it really makes sense to try I don't think you can

01:05:44   either pair an eight an old one old time pod with a new one yeah no in fact now

01:05:50   that I think about it Apple told us that in a press briefing yeah so to make a

01:05:55   stereo pair it has to be two of the same models I had the sunken thing is

01:06:01   slightly different. The other thing they do now is the plus and minus indicators

01:06:07   for volume are screen printed on the touch panel. Yeah, the same as the mini

01:06:13   and which is nice because it was always hard to find it on the original ones.

01:06:17   They would go away and you... Yeah, or like when there's people in your house like

01:06:21   guests who don't know how they work and they actually, you know, we keep ours near

01:06:25   the paper towels, one of them in the kitchen, and people would touch it with

01:06:29   palm and it would start playing music and they wouldn't know what to do. I'm not quite sure that

01:06:33   just starting it, you know, this will help that much, but at least the plus and minus, the permanent

01:06:37   plus and minus will help people figure that part out, right? So even if you're panicked and you've

01:06:43   instantly started playing music you didn't want to, you can at least tap tap tap on minus to make

01:06:47   it quiet before you figure out what else to do. The bottom is different. If you turn an old

01:06:56   original HomePod upside down, there's a concavity on the bottom. The new one's just flat. Who cares?

01:07:04   I guess you never really look at the bottom, but it just shows me that it's a complete redesign.

01:07:09   As similar as they look, it's truly a new acoustical device.

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   [Music]

01:07:15   - Such a fascinating choice to redesign it

01:07:19   and yet leave it so close to the original.

01:07:22   - Right, that they must like the way it looks.

01:07:24   - I don't quite understand.

01:07:25   - I don't know.

01:07:26   - I guess so, but like, yeah, I mean,

01:07:28   I feel like, you know, having had the HomePods for a while,

01:07:31   like, if you gave me an option, like, all right,

01:07:34   give me your top five things that we should fix on the HomePod.

01:07:37   I don't think any of them have been addressed in this,

01:07:40   and it's not that I think they're bad,

01:07:41   it's just like the things that I looked for in like,

01:07:44   oh, this is great, and if you were building on this,

01:07:47   I would like the screen to be a little more functional,

01:07:50   and it may be bringing the price a little bit down,

01:07:53   which they did do, but I think that was the price

01:07:54   when they discontinued it, it was already down to $2.99.

01:07:57   And it's like, lots of little things,

01:08:00   but they also are like, all right, we've heard you,

01:08:02   we've revised the HomePod, here it is,

01:08:03   and you're like, is this the same thing?

01:08:06   You just pass off your homework

01:08:07   and write the same essay again?

01:08:09   But yeah, I don't know, I guess they liked it.

01:08:12   - I wonder how it's going to do.

01:08:14   I don't know, I think in hindsight,

01:08:16   and I wrote about this on "Daring Fireball,"

01:08:21   even I got, when they discontinued it,

01:08:23   I got caught up in the conventional wisdom

01:08:26   that the damn thing was just too expensive

01:08:29   and with all these competing smart speakers

01:08:32   from Amazon and Google and whoever else

01:08:34   that are, you know, 100 bucks or less,

01:08:37   people just didn't wanna spend $300 for it.

01:08:41   And I don't think that was the problem with it.

01:08:44   I know it didn't sell in great quantities apparently,

01:08:47   and presumably if it had, they wouldn't have had

01:08:50   this two-year gap in between.

01:08:52   But I do think though, like why didn't they Mac Pro it?

01:08:58   Remember with the Trashcan Mac Pro

01:09:00   where it just stayed in the lineup forever,

01:09:03   and they even had that weird, well, unusual briefing

01:09:06   with me and Panzarino and a couple of other writers

01:09:10   for the Mac round table.

01:09:11   - Serious about the Mac, yeah.

01:09:13   - And said, look, we painted ourselves

01:09:16   in the thermal corner with this.

01:09:17   We didn't anticipate the rise of swappable GPUs

01:09:21   and we're gonna address this.

01:09:24   We wanna be in the pro market.

01:09:26   We're going to be in the pro market,

01:09:27   but for now, this is it.

01:09:29   But they still kept selling the Mac Pro.

01:09:31   And like we were talking about with the Mac Mini before,

01:09:34   Apple keeps products in the lineup

01:09:37   and they don't lower the price

01:09:39   because they want to hold that spot, right?

01:09:42   And the Mac Pro is a $5,000 computer.

01:09:47   So even when the 2013 trash can was years out of date,

01:09:53   in terms of the latest and greatest from Intel,

01:09:55   the price never went down

01:09:58   because they wanted to hold that price

01:09:59   so that when they did introduce the new Mac Pro,

01:10:03   it could start at that price and go up

01:10:05   without seeming like a massive price increase

01:10:09   from a thing that had been discounted.

01:10:11   Compare and contrast with Dell,

01:10:13   who like you'd spec out a Dell XPS laptop today,

01:10:18   sleep on it, go back tomorrow, it might be $27 cheaper,

01:10:23   it might be $17 more expensive,

01:10:25   based on component prices,

01:10:27   they'll just change the price tomorrow,

01:10:29   change it again the next day.

01:10:31   Apple does the opposite, they hold a price.

01:10:32   Why not hold, just keep selling the HomePod

01:10:35   until this new one was ready?

01:10:37   I can't help but feel that there was a fundamental flaw

01:10:42   that led those original HomePods to fail at a rate

01:10:46   that was unacceptable to Apple.

01:10:48   - Well, except it's a little weird

01:10:50   because for a long time afterwards,

01:10:53   you could get them at retailers for cheap, right?

01:10:57   Like they clearly, and people were doing the thing

01:10:59   where you would look at the specs or whatever,

01:11:01   whatever you could pull up,

01:11:02   and the manufacturer dates on them were like,

01:11:04   the lot numbers were like, it's like the same lot.

01:11:06   And I think two things, here's my theory.

01:11:09   Like one, I mean, obviously,

01:11:11   and I think you mentioned this as well as some other people,

01:11:13   the fact that the HomePod Mini always stuck around

01:11:15   kind of implied the existence of a non-mini HomePod.

01:11:19   And so the fact they were selling that

01:11:21   while there was no larger HomePod,

01:11:22   everyone was kind of like,

01:11:24   oh, it seems like there's still room.

01:11:25   And I think honestly,

01:11:27   the HomePod Mini is the best argument for the HomePod

01:11:30   because people would buy, oh, $99.

01:11:34   I'll take a flyer on that and give it a try.

01:11:36   And they're like, oh man, this is great,

01:11:37   but you know, I'd like something where the sound

01:11:39   was just a little bit better.

01:11:40   Like in some ways it was a good way of getting people

01:11:43   into the idea of using a smart speaker

01:11:46   or having a wireless speaker in their house.

01:11:48   And then you could sort of turn around and be like,

01:11:51   well, here's one with better, even better sound quality.

01:11:53   You're like, you use it now, right?

01:11:54   Like you've gotten used to it.

01:11:55   You've made it part of your life.

01:11:56   And now wouldn't you like a version

01:11:58   that sounds even better?

01:11:59   So I think it will do better

01:12:01   because of the existence of the Mini,

01:12:03   which feels counterintuitive.

01:12:05   - Yeah, yeah.

01:12:06   - But I think there's something there to it.

01:12:08   - Yeah, yeah, I think you're right,

01:12:10   that you kinda needed, they,

01:12:12   maybe they didn't know it when they started,

01:12:13   but they kinda needed a friendly,

01:12:16   ah, what the hell, I'll buy one,

01:12:17   and then you find out how much you like it,

01:12:19   and now you're like, yeah, I want one with the big bass,

01:12:21   and I want a stereo pair, and et cetera and so forth.

01:12:24   It's a great product.

01:12:25   I still think the other problem that they face

01:12:28   is that to me, the true HomePod experience

01:12:30   is $600 with a pair.

01:12:33   - Yeah. - And it's great

01:12:34   that if you really only need one for a smaller room

01:12:38   or whatever the purpose, that you can just buy half

01:12:42   of a pair, but that's what I think.

01:12:45   When you just buy one, you should be thinking,

01:12:47   I'm only buying half of a true HomePod,

01:12:49   and maybe that's what you need.

01:12:51   But fundamentally, the real experience of the product

01:12:54   is a $600 pair of two of them,

01:12:56   whether it's in your TV or filling up a room.

01:12:59   - Yeah. - It is--

01:13:00   - I feel like there is a, you kind of,

01:13:04   this is not how Apple operates and never say never,

01:13:06   but if they were like, oh, or buy two for 500,

01:13:10   I think you'd get a ton of takers.

01:13:11   I gotta be honest. - Yeah, and get 'em

01:13:13   in a box where they're paired together already.

01:13:15   - Yeah, exactly. - And then--

01:13:17   - I mean, people, I have a Sonos Arc hooked up to my TV,

01:13:20   and that is a not cheap soundbar,

01:13:23   and I feel like people will drop 600 bucks

01:13:26   on some nice home theater speakers or what have you.

01:13:29   I don't think that's out of the question at all.

01:13:32   I think it just, and that was the other thing,

01:13:34   was like I think the sort of,

01:13:35   the proof of concept for the home theater angle

01:13:37   came later, I wanna say, like,

01:13:39   and I think maybe you needed,

01:13:41   still need like a newer Apple TV

01:13:43   to get like the full effect out of it, I don't remember.

01:13:45   But I think that's also a selling point as well,

01:13:48   is the home theater angle,

01:13:49   and it did not start out of the gate

01:13:51   that they pushed that.

01:13:52   - I also think they're up against it,

01:13:54   because I don't think the typical person out there,

01:13:56   even if they're a fan of Apple

01:13:57   and you buy lots of Apple stuff,

01:13:59   I don't think people really believe how good a stereo pair

01:14:03   of HomePod sounds, and that I've seen people and readers

01:14:06   who write to me and they'll be like, you know,

01:14:09   I'd do it if it were better than my $500, $800 Soundbar,

01:14:14   but I'm sure it's not, and it's like,

01:14:15   I actually, I think it probably is, I really do.

01:14:18   And I think it's sort of the thing,

01:14:19   that the solution to that chicken and the egg problem

01:14:23   is to get it started and get, you know,

01:14:26   people come, go to somebody's house like mine

01:14:28   where you can watch a movie with a HomePod pair

01:14:30   to a nice TV and be like, wow,

01:14:34   I can't believe that sound is coming from two HomePods.

01:14:36   That's amazing.

01:14:37   And it does sound a bit like surround sound.

01:14:40   It does sound like stuff is coming from behind

01:14:43   and from way further to the side

01:14:45   than the HomePods actually are.

01:14:47   And then you're like, then it puts it in your head

01:14:50   that this really is a credible,

01:14:53   this is a bargain for $600.

01:14:55   I really do think it is.

01:14:57   - One of the things that kills me on this is,

01:15:00   if all I did on my TV was watch stuff via my Apple TV,

01:15:05   I probably would use a HomePod stereo pair there.

01:15:07   But if you have anything else connected to your TV,

01:15:10   like a gaming console, it's a non-starter.

01:15:13   And it's just that to me is the bummer part is like,

01:15:15   it's great that it has the wireless connectivity

01:15:18   with the Apple TV and it does use the eARC standard,

01:15:21   but I don't think there's any way.

01:15:23   - Yeah, I think as time goes on,

01:15:26   I think this eARC is going to, it'll eventually work,

01:15:31   but I don't think that with existing consoles and TiVos

01:15:35   and other things, anything HDMI that you have hooked up

01:15:39   to your TV, the odds are somewhat good

01:15:42   that you'd still need some other audio solution.

01:15:44   - Yeah, and I have to ding it slightly too,

01:15:48   and I have it in my office, and I have used it

01:15:51   for output from my Mac, but it,

01:15:54   It's flaky still, and that's my biggest issue.

01:15:59   Why is it not just a great pair of Mac speakers?

01:16:03   And there's also some latency.

01:16:04   So for example, if I'm editing a podcast,

01:16:07   I can't, you can't do it.

01:16:08   It just doesn't, it doesn't work.

01:16:09   It's not, 'cause it's going over wifi, right?

01:16:11   Like there's gonna be some latency

01:16:14   and some traffic issues there, which is a bummer.

01:16:16   - Ah, all right, let me take a break here

01:16:18   and thank our second and final sponsor of this episode,

01:16:21   our good friends at Collide.

01:16:23   If you're listening to this podcast,

01:16:25   the odds are good that at some point you're gonna go,

01:16:27   you or your company is gonna go through an audit

01:16:30   like SOC 2 or ISO 27001.

01:16:35   If those ring a bell to you,

01:16:38   then you really oughta look at Collide.

01:16:41   'Cause you're gonna have to answer some tough questions

01:16:43   about endpoint security when you get audited.

01:16:45   Questions like, do all of your company's laptops

01:16:48   have their disks encrypted?

01:16:50   Does everyone have the company's password manager installed?

01:16:53   Do you have a system in place to monitor and maintain compliance throughout your cross-platform

01:16:58   fleet?

01:16:59   Even if you're confident the answer to all of those questions is yes, the question when

01:17:03   you're audited is, can you prove it to the auditor?

01:17:08   If you're not quite sure how you'd go about proving compliance across your fleet of devices,

01:17:12   then you need Collide.

01:17:13   Collide, K-O-L-I-D-E, is an endpoint security tool for Mac, Windows, and Linux devices that

01:17:20   that does things MDMs cannot,

01:17:22   and it gives you the visibility you need

01:17:25   to maintain compliance.

01:17:26   And best of all, Collide does not resort

01:17:28   to surveilling employees or locking down devices.

01:17:32   Instead, it works with end users to resolve issues

01:17:35   and relies on their cooperation and informed consent.

01:17:39   Where do you go?

01:17:42   Look, you can meet your security needs

01:17:46   and pass your audit without compromising on privacy.

01:17:49   visit KOLIDE, K-O-L-I-D-E, kolide.com/thetalkshow

01:17:54   and find out how.

01:17:56   If you follow that link,

01:17:57   they will hook you up with a goodie bag,

01:17:59   including a T-shirt, just for activating a free trial.

01:18:02   That's K-O-L-I-D-E, kolide.com/thetalkshow.

01:18:07   My thanks to Kolide.

01:18:09   You added a note to our little show notes thing here.

01:18:13   I don't know what you're talking about.

01:18:14   A foldable iPad with a kickstand.

01:18:16   What's this?

01:18:18   This was a rumor, so I didn't know how much credence to give it, but I think it was Ming-Chi

01:18:22   Kuo who was saying in 2024, Apple will be putting out a foldable iPad with a kickstand.

01:18:30   And I'm just, I don't even know what's happening here.

01:18:36   This has been in the, I think he posted on Twitter, but it's been showing up on all the

01:18:40   usual suspects and saying basically there may be no new iPad releases in the next nine

01:18:46   to 12 months, which I think there have been a lot of speculation that the iPad is going

01:18:51   to have a quiet year, unless maybe there is a larger or a bigger change to come. I know

01:18:59   we've heard about other stuff taking a bigger change in the next few years, rumors about

01:19:05   touchscreen Macs and all that. I just think the foldable market is such a weird idea and

01:19:13   yet something that does not seem like it's going away. And I have to believe Apple is at least,

01:19:19   you know, experimenting and investigating whether these things are plausible. I just, I'm,

01:19:24   I don't know. There's what, the Surface? What's the Surface one? There's a Surface one that has

01:19:29   two screens. This is weird. I don't know. They're all duo. All of their products are named in a way

01:19:35   that I, they all sound like they could be the other. The names don't get, so the, the, the

01:19:40   surface that folds yes there you go the surface that they should have called it that that's a

01:19:46   great fold i don't know at least yeah at least samsung names their foldable ones the galaxy fold

01:19:51   or something like that so you know what's there you go it is um speaking of anyways i i thought

01:19:57   speaking of speed bumps the ultimate speed bump product in the lineup is got to be the ipad pros

01:20:02   which are pretty much unchanged since 2018 i know that the big 12.91 at now starting last generation

01:20:10   has the micro LED screen so it has a better screen technology but again side

01:20:18   by side a 2018 iPad Pro of either size compared to one that you buy today same

01:20:24   size same weight same more or less thing but on the other hand the chips keep

01:20:29   getting faster for people who use them and it is a good design it is very thin

01:20:34   it's very light I decide so it you know is is it a five-year design that is

01:20:39   is worth five years? Yeah, I think so.

01:20:43   But it... - Yeah, I'm fascinated by it

01:20:45   because it's like the Mac, you know, I think Apple has run into this issue of

01:20:50   their hardware being so good that it feels like, okay, we've come out with a new iPad,

01:20:57   we speed bumped it, and everyone's like, oh, this one, this one, this one. It's like your RAM,

01:21:00   you know, you know, your 64 gigabytes of RAM and not paging out, like, you know, okay, it's great.

01:21:05   Like, I mean, but now that I've hit this point, like, what else, what else do I need, right?

01:21:11   And I think that's an interesting challenge for Apple to be in, is having this, the hardware that

01:21:15   is so good that it feels like, well, you've kind of, you kind of nailed it, right? Like,

01:21:21   there's surely, there's always room for improvement, but I don't know what that is.

01:21:24   I always pull out to, as my example of a purely fictional purpose for foldable devices, the,

01:21:35   the tablets and phones, whatever you want to call them on HBO's Westworld,

01:21:39   which if you've never watched, you can, I'm pretty sure you should be able to YouTube

01:21:44   clips of people using them. Obviously, that takes place in the future and they're super thin. They

01:21:51   don't have any frame. They're just clear pieces of plastic that light up when they turn them on, but

01:21:56   they fold to what we consider phone shape and you could put them in a pocket where you would hold

01:22:03   what we today consider smartphones,

01:22:06   but to unfold them to a very nice tablet size.

01:22:10   And putting aside all technical difficulties,

01:22:15   screen technology, hinges, where do you put batteries?

01:22:23   The ones in Westworld don't seemingly have batteries.

01:22:28   But in theory, the appeal of that is tremendous.

01:22:31   It's like, you know, think back to the old days

01:22:35   when we had paper maps in our car, you know,

01:22:37   and of course it was very difficult

01:22:39   to fold them back up the right way,

01:22:40   but you certainly wouldn't want a road map

01:22:44   of your state or the country or half the country

01:22:47   that was the size that would fit in your dashboard,

01:22:50   but you certainly wouldn't want to keep the map out

01:22:53   if you couldn't fold it up, if it's big.

01:22:56   Folding is great.

01:22:57   There's a reason folding has been around with paper products

01:23:00   as long as there's been paper.

01:23:02   So can't help but think eventually folding

01:23:06   is going to come to the Apple universe

01:23:08   and that they've just been waiting

01:23:10   until they can do it right.

01:23:11   Because in my opinion, all the ones I've seen,

01:23:14   like from Samsung with their phones,

01:23:16   the ones that are actually available for sale,

01:23:19   don't seem, the trade-off doesn't seem worth it.

01:23:22   It's like, you know, they fold up

01:23:23   and they're twice as thick.

01:23:24   Why would I want a phone that's twice as thick?

01:23:26   Why do I want a, you know, now,

01:23:28   and the good screen is now folded up inside

01:23:31   and there's another extra screen on the outside

01:23:33   just so I can look at it without unfolding it?

01:23:36   It all seems convoluted.

01:23:38   I don't know many people who use them.

01:23:41   They must sell well enough that Samsung keeps making them,

01:23:46   but I guess Apple will get there.

01:23:48   - Well, it's the whole thing we always say,

01:23:51   is Apple doesn't do its data tests in public, right?

01:23:54   When they're ready, they're ready

01:23:55   and they're not gonna show off anything

01:23:57   until they feel like it's good enough that they wish.

01:23:59   - But it certainly would be at a basic level

01:24:01   if Apple thinks they have a good solution.

01:24:03   Certainly a big way to take the iPad to new territory

01:24:08   by I guess two ways it could go, right?

01:24:12   You could take iPads with a maximum screen size

01:24:17   like we know now in that 11 to 13 inch range

01:24:21   and have them fold up to be far more portable

01:24:24   than they are now, possibly pocketable,

01:24:27   that would be kind of amazing,

01:24:29   to be able to put an iPad in your pants pocket,

01:24:32   or like a jacket pocket.

01:24:34   Famously, Apple loves to talk about

01:24:37   how their iPads are used in medicine.

01:24:39   It's actually a known fact now

01:24:43   that the doctors wear those white lab coats,

01:24:45   that all the pockets on all lab coats

01:24:47   are now meant to hold iPads,

01:24:49   because iPads are so often used in medical situations.

01:24:54   Most of us don't wear lab coats all the time.

01:24:57   - Awkward for everybody else, that's true, yeah.

01:24:59   - So pocketability would be amazing for an iPad.

01:25:02   It really, really would.

01:25:04   Or I guess the other way they could go

01:25:06   would be to make a much larger maximum size,

01:25:09   but have it fold up to be as portable as the iPads today.

01:25:12   You could have a 16 inch, or I don't know, even bigger,

01:25:15   20 inch unfolded iPad display.

01:25:17   I'd like to see it.

01:25:18   I'm sure it's coming.

01:25:20   I don't know.

01:25:21   Other than CES demos of products

01:25:23   that are not meant for the market.

01:25:25   I've never seen a foldable phone that I've thought,

01:25:27   oh, I would buy that.

01:25:28   It's still, they're too thick when folded.

01:25:30   The hinges are too obvious.

01:25:32   Doesn't seem reliable.

01:25:33   But CES always, every year, CES has something,

01:25:36   and they work as prototypes,

01:25:39   and there's people touching them,

01:25:40   and they light up, and they work,

01:25:42   and it's like, wow, that would be pretty cool

01:25:43   if it was practical to actually sell

01:25:45   in the mass market this year.

01:25:46   - I remain convinced it's all just,

01:25:50   it's all special effects now.

01:25:51   Todd Vaziri is out there making foldable phones and tricking us all into thinking they're

01:25:55   real. Other than that though, I'm done for the week. Anything else you wanted to talk

01:26:00   about? Are you on the Mastodon? I am on Mastodon. I knew that answer. That was a cheat question.

01:26:10   I follow you there. Are you happy? Yeah, I've dialed way back on Twitter. I still check

01:26:17   in every once in a while just to like keep my finger on what's like going like check

01:26:21   my mentions that kind of thing but I honestly you mentioned at some point that you were

01:26:26   not really even seeing much engagement at all. It's something that's yeah, yeah, me

01:26:30   neither. I've also it's been very quiet over there and I can't tell is like, is it really

01:26:34   just everybody who was actually like not a bot following me is is gone? Or is there something

01:26:41   screwed up with their infrastructure? I don't know. But I, you know, I think the only thing

01:26:45   right now that I'm not as, you know, kind of full-throated on Macedon is I just, I still

01:26:52   need a better Mac client, but I've been using Ivory on my iPhone and my iPad and I love

01:26:56   it. I'm a Tweetbot user, so that is, it just feels like home to me. So I'm very excited

01:27:02   about that Mac app that they're doing. But yeah, it's nice if it feels good.

01:27:10   I can report, I'm allowed to say,

01:27:11   that Mac Iberi is coming along.

01:27:14   I'm lucky enough, I was invited,

01:27:17   as of this weekend, using, I don't even know,

01:27:20   I don't even know what they're describing it as.

01:27:22   They're describing it as not even alpha.

01:27:25   But it is already, everything, you know,

01:27:28   if you used Tweetbot for Mac, it is,

01:27:30   it'll make you feel at home,

01:27:32   even though it's slightly different.

01:27:34   Can't come soon enough for everybody else.

01:27:36   They know it, God bless them,

01:27:37   they're getting some sleep over there. It is super exciting times UI-wise though, and

01:27:44   you know there are other ones coming, some of these other ones all through so far through

01:27:49   Catalyst, but Mammoth, which is still in test flight as we record but might be out by the

01:27:56   time the show comes out, has got a pretty credible Mac thing.

01:27:59   Yeah, I've been using it from the Mac for a while, and it's pretty good.

01:28:04   I mean, there's lots and lots of little things like the keyboard

01:28:07   navigation. Yeah, well, it's still it's still an iPad. It's

01:28:10   fundamentally still an iOS app and like it, but it works.

01:28:14   There's a while there during the beta where every time I tried to

01:28:16   post something, it was like, well, that's, that's a non

01:28:20   starter, but Oh, well, but it was still good for reading. But

01:28:23   it is kind of fun when you're a nerd and you're willing to put

01:28:26   up with stuff like that. It's kind of fun to be in on it such

01:28:29   early days. I

01:28:32   Yeah, it's got a nice bleeding edge feel to it. I mean, I don't know, lots of people have compared

01:28:36   the current Mastodon to feeling like Twitter circa 2007 or 2008. It does bring me back to those

01:28:43   times. I think the best thing I've sort of said about Mastodon is that I think it's a really good

01:28:50   place for interacting with people. Twitter became a place where it was about interacting with,

01:28:55   there are brands and there's news and there's public figures and all of that.

01:29:00   And I feel like that's a niche that's been carved out and I don't know that Mastodon will replicate

01:29:05   that, but for just sort of straight up talking to people that you might be interested in talking to

01:29:09   or hearing from, I think it actually is pretty great. And I told my wife the other night,

01:29:16   because I've been trying to convince her to use it more, the best thing about Mastodon is there

01:29:21   is no way that Donald Trump will ever figure out how to sign up for it.

01:29:24   It's true. I hate to say it sounds elitist, but I don't mean it in an elitist way. I just spoke

01:29:31   about this at length last episode of this show with Craig Hockenberry, so I won't go too deep, but

01:29:35   it sounds elitist, but I don't mean it that way. But I think that the higher barrier to entry

01:29:42   conceptually works in Mastodon's favor for the type of people who, for lack of a better catch-all,

01:29:50   listen to podcasts like the talk show or upgrade or

01:29:53   a slightly nerdy, you know, and you have to make this level of conceptual

01:29:58   leap to a two-level namespace where you're at username at instance server.

01:30:04   Um, and you have to I, you know, I really, I'll repeat myself a little, but it's like,

01:30:13   I think that back when Twitter switched,

01:30:16   it made that big pivot in 2013 or so

01:30:19   to move away from fully embracing

01:30:23   and supporting third-party clients

01:30:25   and moved away from just having a chronological timeline.

01:30:29   That they did it because they knew

01:30:31   to justify their existence financially

01:30:34   and the goals they'd set and the money they'd raised,

01:30:35   they needed hundreds of millions more users

01:30:38   and they weren't gonna get them with Twitter as it was

01:30:41   because most people looked at it

01:30:44   and it just didn't appeal to them.

01:30:46   And an algorithmic timeline that suggests things to them

01:30:51   made hundreds of millions or at least tens of millions

01:30:54   of more people see Twitter as, oh yeah,

01:30:57   this is something I would use on a regular basis.

01:31:00   It just, it worked.

01:31:01   And as frustrated as many of us are

01:31:04   who like what Twitter was before that,

01:31:06   I get it, it wasn't popular to those people.

01:31:10   So forget even the, do I even understand it?

01:31:13   I think people who got on, hundreds of millions of people

01:31:16   who use Twitter and at least find it engaging enough

01:31:19   to keep using, will never like Mastodon,

01:31:21   'cause Mastodon is never gonna present them

01:31:24   in the algorithmic timeline,

01:31:25   and the non-algorithmic timeline isn't something

01:31:29   that entertains them or engages their brain

01:31:31   or feels entertaining.

01:31:32   And so for those of us who do, Mastodon is it,

01:31:34   and it really is, it's backwards, it's stepping into it,

01:31:39   But in some ways Elon Musk did save Twitter

01:31:43   by ruining Twitter and therefore creating

01:31:46   a critical mass of millions of people

01:31:49   who are like in what I see on Mastodon now

01:31:54   who otherwise were never going to go through the hassle

01:32:00   of closing up shop on Twitter and moving to Mastodon.

01:32:03   It's really exciting times and it's so exciting.

01:32:07   It's been a very long time since something grassroots, open, and nonprofit has experienced

01:32:15   commercial explosive growth as a platform on the internet.

01:32:19   And it sounds it's depressing that it's been so long, because that used to be what the

01:32:24   internet was all about one thing after another some new open thing, and you can anybody can

01:32:28   write a client for it.

01:32:30   And it's a new stuff is happening.

01:32:34   "Oh my god, here's a new client that does things in an altogether different way. Wow,

01:32:38   that's really clever. I don't know, maybe that's for me, maybe it's not, but I'm glad

01:32:41   someone's trying it." And, you know, here we are again, and it's very exciting. So I'm

01:32:47   not going to shut up about it.

01:32:48   If nothing else, it's not static.

01:32:49   Yeah, I'm not going to shut up about it.

01:32:51   No, I like this stuff changing.

01:32:53   I will answer this. It's a frequently asked question at this point, and I'm sorry I'm

01:32:56   not there yet. Will there be an @DaringFireball and @TheTalkShow accounts that auto-post new

01:33:03   episodes and posts on Mastodon, yes, 100%, I guarantee it.

01:33:08   Are they ready yet? No. So, coming soon.

01:33:12   Let me just say this, let me give a shout out to your work.

01:33:18   You're a novelist, god damn it.

01:33:20   It makes me a little jealous.

01:33:22   It's in the back of every writer's mind

01:33:24   that you should someday write a novel.

01:33:27   - It's a lot of time, not always the best return, but--

01:33:33   I heard that it pays great. Well, it does. I mean, it's no podcasting money. Don't get

01:33:41   me wrong. But what are you up to? You're up to three novels? I've written four novels.

01:33:52   The Galactic Cold War series is my current going concern. Most recent one, the NOVA incident,

01:33:56   out last summer. Working on a couple other things right now and I should have something

01:34:03   coming out. I don't exactly know when but I think in the first half of this year there

01:34:08   should be something that is a different thing which I don't know how much I can say about

01:34:13   it at this point other than it's well I'll give a quick overview. It's actually a supernatural

01:34:20   detective novel that's set in Boston and involves spooky goings on at a giant technology company.

01:34:27   So maybe a little more in my wheelhouse and perhaps even in the wheelhouse of some of the

01:34:31   listeners here. So look for that. I'm sure I'll be writing a lot about it when it comes out.

01:34:35   You're saying you have more real world actual experience with technology companies than you do

01:34:40   with intergalactic cold wars? Slightly. Plus, you know, spooky ghosts and stuff too.

01:34:47   let me ask this, here's my question. The three novels so far in the series are titled The Caledonian

01:34:56   Gambit, The Bayern Agenda, and as you said the latest one, The Nova Incident. There's one more

01:35:05   in there as well, there's the Aliph extraction. Oh yes, right, all right, extraction. But so I see the

01:35:09   pattern. One of them was it--everyone says they see the pattern. There's a gambit, there was an agenda,

01:35:17   there was an extraction, there was an incident. How many of those do you have in the can for the

01:35:24   future? You gotta have a couple. I don't want to hear them. I'm not asking. Oh yeah, there are a

01:35:32   couple. There are a couple. There are at least a couple in the can. I will say this. When I wrote

01:35:36   my first book, no title I've ever come up with for my book. No first title has ever survived

01:35:42   to the final publication. They always get changed. And the first time when I was doing my first book,

01:35:49   they didn't like the title I had, and so they asked me to brainstorm some other ones.

01:35:53   And I was coming up with joke titles, and the Caledonian Gambit was my Robert Ludlum,

01:35:58   I literally called it my Robert Ludlum title, like "Born Identity." All his books are the

01:36:03   something something. And then I just got stuck. Once you start a pattern, once you start the way

01:36:11   you're doing something, you just keep going with that same pattern. You kind of fall into that

01:36:15   trap. So yeah, so I have come up with ones for future installments if need be, and yes, they do

01:36:22   all sort of fall in that same the something something. So people can find out more about

01:36:28   your books at your personal website dmorin.com and you've got, as somebody would expect,

01:36:39   all of the links you could possibly want to buy them in any form you want. I would have to think

01:36:43   the queen of that sort of novel titling pattern/conundrum of "Where do you finish?" has got to

01:36:50   be Sue Grafton, right? Oh yeah, and she died before she could finish. So what are the... It's terrible.

01:36:57   She got like within, I think she was on like X or something. It was pretty close to the end. Well,

01:37:01   I'm looking at her website and there's a Y is for yesterday. Okay, so maybe that's the last one she

01:37:07   got. So that's killer. You'd die before you get to that last letter in the alpha. You get 25!

01:37:12   And then you... I mean, and I was in high school when those first started coming out. That's a long

01:37:18   time ago. Yeah, my mom had a bunch of them because she's a mystery. Yeah, and at some point that was

01:37:22   one of those novels where I was like, "Ah, I don't read mysteries, and I don't know." But somehow,

01:37:26   at some point, I was bored and there was one, and I read it, and I was like, "Hey, these are pretty

01:37:29   good!" And then I got all caught up in, of course, everybody, you know, like any series novel, the

01:37:35   the fans cannot wait for the next one.

01:37:38   But of course with hers, there was this whole cottage

01:37:41   industry of people trying to predict what the title

01:37:43   for each letter would be, right?

01:37:45   - Right, yeah.

01:37:48   It was like when Android, they're doing all the candies

01:37:51   or whatever, right?

01:37:52   - Exactly, and people would try to guess,

01:37:54   what's the candy?

01:37:55   J for jelly bean, that seems pretty obvious,

01:37:57   but what the hell do you do with X?

01:37:59   And they gave up on it.

01:38:04   - Yeah, right, well, they've kind of painted themselves

01:38:06   into a corner.

01:38:07   - Anyway, people can find that there.

01:38:10   Of course, in terms of Mac nerdery,

01:38:14   you are the, what's your official title?

01:38:15   The East Coast--

01:38:17   - Bureau Chief, which is a title I have

01:38:20   because I told Jason, man, Bureau Chief is a title

01:38:23   that doesn't get used enough anymore.

01:38:24   Is you wanna be a Bureau Chief, be a Bureau Chief.

01:38:25   It's like that's what I meant.

01:38:26   - East Coast Bureau Chief at sixcolors.com,

01:38:29   and it's just fantastic ongoing work there,

01:38:34   including your review of the Mac Mini this week.

01:38:36   So keep it up.

01:38:37   And do you do any podcasts?

01:38:39   - I got a couple with some people

01:38:43   that you may be familiar with.

01:38:44   I do a clockwise over on Relay FM with Micah Sargent.

01:38:49   We do two, basically a round table every week

01:38:53   with two guests and we talk about a certain amount

01:38:55   of topics and it's never over 30 minutes.

01:38:57   So it's nice to-

01:38:58   - So you can never have, you'll never have me on.

01:39:01   - You can be, we had Syracuse on.

01:39:03   Keep Syracuse down to half an hour.

01:39:06   You're welcome. You have an open invitation.

01:39:08   Well, we'll just do introductions.

01:39:10   Then there we go, 30 minutes.

01:39:12   Get it and quit it. I do a bunch of stuff over the incomparable with

01:39:17   Jason Snell and a couple of your other frequent collaborators,

01:39:22   John Moltz and Guy English and I do a podcast on superhero stuff called Biff.

01:39:25   Never heard of you.

01:39:26   It's currently biweekly.

01:39:27   Never heard of you.

01:39:28   They're not that important. Then I do one called The Rebound with John Moltz and

01:39:33   Lex Friedman, who I gather is heavily--

01:39:36   - Yeah, that son of a bitch.

01:39:38   But I'm all in on the Eagles at this point.

01:39:41   You gotta root for somebody, so.

01:39:42   - Well, it's a hometown team, too, come on.

01:39:46   - Well, I hate the 49ers.

01:39:49   I hate the 49ers more than just about anybody,

01:39:51   so that was pretty good yesterday.

01:39:54   Well, thank you, Dan.

01:39:55   Have a good time, and talk to you soon.

01:39:58   - Thanks, John, appreciate it, take care.