Connected

00:00:00 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:00:02 ◼   ► - Hello and welcome to Connected episode 436.

00:00:12 ◼   ► It's made possible by our sponsors,

00:00:14 ◼   ► Indeed Electric and CleanMyMac X.

00:00:17 ◼   ► My name is Steven Hackett and I'm joined by Mr. Myke Hurley.

00:00:20 ◼   ► - Hello, Fedi friend.

00:00:21 ◼   ► - Hello, Fedi buddy.

00:00:24 ◼   ► - Fedi buddy, we'll get to that a little later on.

00:00:26 ◼   ► No Federico, no actual Fedi today.

00:00:28 ◼   ► Fede's not here. Where is Federico today? Should we make up a story about where he is

00:00:33 ◼   ► today? He was running Ethernet through his apartment and attacked by a snake.

00:00:39 ◼   ► Attacked by a snake. An internet snake. Which was on fire. All of these things

00:00:46 ◼   ► have happened in Federico's life. Snakes and fires. But he has fast

00:00:51 ◼   ► internet but unfortunately is dealing with snake bites so. It's a bummer.

00:00:55 ◼   ► Mm-hmm. Hopefully he'll be back next time, but we'll find out.

00:00:58 ◼   ► On Connected episode 432, I asked people to send me nice letters to the P.O. Box.

00:01:04 ◼   ► Haven't gotten any in a couple weeks, just saying, putting that out there. But we then joked about

00:01:10 ◼   ► ice sculptures. I had to go back and find this and listen to it where I was like, "Send a nice

00:01:14 ◼   ► letter," and then you're like, "Send an ice letter!" Well... And then we talked about ice sculptures,

00:01:22 ◼   ► I think. Yeah, because then you were trying to encourage an ice swan and then we were saying,

00:01:27 ◼   ► well I was saying to you, please don't do that because then we will lose the PO box. Yeah,

00:01:32 ◼   ► because it's dripping on the on the PO box below us. Well no, just because the person would get

00:01:36 ◼   ► angry at you for doing that. I just renewed it. I just uh, I just paid for it again. But someone

00:01:42 ◼   ► sent me a 3D printed swan with an ice letter engraved in the base of it. I got a picture of

00:01:50 ◼   ► of it in the show notes. It's here on my desk. I love it.

00:01:54 ◼   ► It's an all time great. This is an all time great. This is like,

00:01:59 ◼   ► fantastic. Do you have a name for this person?

00:02:00 ◼   ► So I was not given permission to share their name. I wasn't

00:02:04 ◼   ► first name. I wasn't told not to share their name. And this is

00:02:08 ◼   ► just a first name. Well, so here's the thing on the label.

00:02:11 ◼   ► It was just a Twitter handle. Oh, and that Twitter handle, I

00:02:14 ◼   ► don't think has a name associated with it either. So I

00:02:16 ◼   ► would say, oh, that's not good. An amazing listener. I opened

00:02:20 ◼   ► it and I squealed with the light like a child on Christmas. I was so excited.

00:02:24 ◼   ► So good. This is so good. This is super good. I'm very proud of this person.

00:02:28 ◼   ► It's sitting right next to my tricky on my desk.

00:02:33 ◼   ► It's fitting.

00:02:34 ◼   ► It is. So thank you very much dear listener. You know, the rest of you, come on. I need

00:02:41 ◼   ► some letters.

00:02:42 ◼   ► Nice sculptures.

00:02:43 ◼   ► Myke, you have made a decision about the Fediverse.

00:02:47 ◼   ► So have you.

00:02:49 ◼   ► So have I, but we're talking about you first.

00:02:51 ◼   ► Oh, no, we need to talk about you first, I think, because my decision was informed by you.

00:02:57 ◼   ► So it makes most sense for you to go first.

00:03:00 ◼   ► Okay.

00:03:00 ◼   ► So I had, uh, I'd set up a Macedon social account like in 2018 and I kind of been reading a little bit, like dipping my toe in the water.

00:03:08 ◼   ► We talked a lot about this.

00:03:10 ◼   ► I don't necessarily want to rehash the whole history, but in a nutshell, I think both of us wanted to take a break from that form of social media.

00:03:19 ◼   ► But over the last couple of weeks, I sort of,

00:03:21 ◼   ► my mind has started to change about that a little bit

00:03:23 ◼   ► and I wanted to be more involved in the community there.

00:03:27 ◼   ► But I wanted, I didn't want to stay

00:03:30 ◼   ► on the large server I was on.

00:03:32 ◼   ► Nothing against mastodon.social,

00:03:33 ◼   ► like I don't really know much about it,

00:03:35 ◼   ► which honestly was part of the problem.

00:03:37 ◼   ► And so over the weekend, I set up eWorld.social

00:03:42 ◼   ► using a service called Masto Host.

00:03:45 ◼   ► Jason spoke about this on Upgrade.

00:03:48 ◼   ► You can pay them monthly and basically it's like

00:03:50 ◼   ► Mastodon server as a service.

00:03:53 ◼   ► And you know, I could run my own on Linode

00:03:55 ◼   ► or various other places, but at least for getting started

00:03:58 ◼   ► as like willing to pay a service to make this work.

00:04:02 ◼   ► And then migrated my account over, which is,

00:04:06 ◼   ► I would compare moving a Mastodon account between instances

00:04:10 ◼   ► like swinging through the jungle.

00:04:12 ◼   ► Like you have to let go of the vine you're on

00:04:14 ◼   ► to catch the next vine sometimes.

00:04:16 ◼   ► Yeah, it's really weird.

00:04:19 ◼   ► Like, you sent me a great article

00:04:21 ◼   ► and it was very clear about the way you did it.

00:04:24 ◼   ► And so like following that article, it was easy.

00:04:27 ◼   ► But it's strange.

00:04:28 ◼   ► Like, it is very strange to me.

00:04:31 ◼   ► So one of the things, you may not know this,

00:04:33 ◼   ► if you move from server to server,

00:04:35 ◼   ► you can export the people,

00:04:38 ◼   ► like you can export a bunch of data,

00:04:40 ◼   ► but you can also, in making the transfer,

00:04:42 ◼   ► you kind of force everyone to follow the new account.

00:04:46 ◼   ► Like there's kind of nothing you can do about it as a person,

00:04:50 ◼   ► which is very helpful, right?

00:04:51 ◼   ► Like for me and you moving from instance to instance.

00:04:55 ◼   ► But it is also like one of these things where it's like

00:04:57 ◼   ► that feels like it is a technology decision made

00:05:02 ◼   ► with like rose tinted glasses on,

00:05:06 ◼   ► because I could amass a huge following

00:05:10 ◼   ► and then just like sell it.

00:05:12 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:05:14 ◼   ► And like just transfer it to someone else.

00:05:16 ◼   ► So now you're all following scrub daddy, like in their social media presence, right?

00:05:21 ◼   ► Scrub daddy needs a...

00:05:22 ◼   ► I don't want to hear from scrub daddy's lawyers.

00:05:23 ◼   ► scrubdaddy.social

00:05:24 ◼   ► scrub... wait did you say scrub at daddy.social?

00:05:30 ◼   ► I said scrubdaddy.social but...

00:05:31 ◼   ► scrubdaddy.social

00:05:32 ◼   ► scrubdaddy.social

00:05:33 ◼   ► I'm just gonna, in a new tab, daddy.

00:05:35 ◼   ► There's no way daddy is a TLD.

00:05:39 ◼   ► Daddy.social

00:05:40 ◼   ► If you do not understand why we're talking about this right now, I'm gonna put an episode

00:05:43 ◼   ► of Ungeniused in the show notes for you.

00:05:46 ◼   ► Scrub Daddy has become like an important part of mine and Steven's shared relationship.

00:05:52 ◼   ► Also, if you don't know what Scrub Daddy is, this episode of UnGenius will also help you

00:05:57 ◼   ► with that.

00:05:59 ◼   ► Daddy Dot Social is not for sale.

00:06:03 ◼   ► Daddy Online is $720.

00:06:05 ◼   ► Oh, I thought you were looking for like Scrub Dot Daddy.

00:06:09 ◼   ► Daddy Dot Fun is $1400.

00:06:12 ◼   ► Robdaddy.social is available, by the way, as Myke is pointing out.

00:06:16 ◼   ► We're off course.

00:06:17 ◼   ► Can we come back?

00:06:18 ◼   ► Okay.

00:06:19 ◼   ► Yes.

00:06:20 ◼   ► Yes.

00:06:21 ◼   ► The migration is weird.

00:06:22 ◼   ► People get notification that you're following them again, because when you do it, your followers

00:06:27 ◼   ► come with you, and then you export the list of people you follow and import that to your

00:06:33 ◼   ► new server.

00:06:34 ◼   ► And it takes a little while.

00:06:35 ◼   ► You know, mine took, I don't know, a day or so to kind of sync back up.

00:06:40 ◼   ► At the end of it, I have my account with everyone I was following and I thank everyone who was

00:06:45 ◼   ► following me just at ismh@eworld.social.

00:06:49 ◼   ► And I wanted to run my own server for a couple of reasons.

00:06:51 ◼   ► One, like I should probably understand this better in terms of the company, which we'll

00:06:55 ◼   ► get to in a minute.

00:06:57 ◼   ► But also, I like having a domain for something that you know, that I'm on that I don't control

00:07:03 ◼   ► the service, right?

00:07:04 ◼   ► I'm paying someone to run the service, but the domain is mine.

00:07:06 ◼   ► And I don't know, I mean, Mastodon Social is like the official one, I think, like run

00:07:10 ◼   ► by the Mastodon people.

00:07:12 ◼   ► But if that server does something that I don't agree with or like becomes poisoned in the

00:07:18 ◼   ► eye of the community or something, I was like, well, if I run my own, I kind of avoid all

00:07:23 ◼   ► of that complication.

00:07:24 ◼   ► And that was attractive to me.

00:07:26 ◼   ► So but you have also just decided to be on Mastodon, though, right?

00:07:31 ◼   ► Like, it's not just about running.

00:07:32 ◼   ► 'Cause you-- I think last time we spoke on the show,

00:07:35 ◼   ► like, we-- neither of us were using it.

00:07:37 ◼   ► -Yeah. -Just like, like, actively.

00:07:39 ◼   ► Yeah, like I said, my mind has changed a little bit on that

00:07:43 ◼   ► over the, um... over the next--

00:07:46 ◼   ► or over the last couple of weeks,

00:07:49 ◼   ► really just feeling like I want to be more plugged in

00:07:53 ◼   ► to the community that's there.

00:07:55 ◼   ► -Mm-hmm. -I was really unsure,

00:07:58 ◼   ► like, let's say two months ago,

00:07:59 ◼   ► that Macedon was gonna, like, be the thing.

00:08:02 ◼   ► And to be clear, it's not the thing in the wider world, right?

00:08:06 ◼   ► Like sports, Twitter, entertainment, Twitter,

00:08:09 ◼   ► all that's going along like nothing ever happened, right?

00:08:12 ◼   ► But the community that we are a part of

00:08:14 ◼   ► and that amazingly Relay is like a pillar of the community,

00:08:18 ◼   ► at least, at least I hope so,

00:08:20 ◼   ► that community has moved basically to Mastodon.

00:08:27 ◼   ► There's still people on both and still people on Twitter

00:08:29 ◼   ► and I'm not judging anyone's decisions about any of that.

00:08:32 ◼   ► But it became clear to me over the last couple of weeks,

00:08:34 ◼   ► like this is where sort of our community is.

00:08:38 ◼   ► And I kind of made the decision

00:08:41 ◼   ► that I did want to be a part of it.

00:08:43 ◼   ► Now I'm still, as I think you are, being very,

00:08:48 ◼   ► not careful, but very restrained in my use of it.

00:08:52 ◼   ► So like really not reading my timeline

00:08:55 ◼   ► all that much currently.

00:08:57 ◼   ► Sending a few replies,

00:08:58 ◼   ► but mostly just kind of tweeting funny Apple stuff

00:09:01 ◼   ► or posting or tooting, posting fun Apple weird stuff.

00:09:05 ◼   ► So yeah, that's where I am with it.

00:09:07 ◼   ► Like my mind has changed a little bit

00:09:08 ◼   ► and honestly being able to manage it myself

00:09:13 ◼   ► with like a funny domain that I pay for,

00:09:16 ◼   ► helped with that a little bit, I think.

00:09:19 ◼   ► - So you are now on eWorld.social.

00:09:21 ◼   ► - That's right, yeah, it's me and five12pixels are there.

00:09:25 ◼   ► So I am now i-mic on mike.social.

00:09:29 ◼   ► - Nice.

00:09:30 ◼   ► - I went with that because I know me

00:09:33 ◼   ► and if I tried to come up with a joke,

00:09:36 ◼   ► I would change it every three months.

00:09:38 ◼   ► So I decided to just go with mike.social.

00:09:41 ◼   ► I think what you had done is great,

00:09:43 ◼   ► but if I would have gone down that route

00:09:44 ◼   ► and picked something that I thought was funny

00:09:46 ◼   ► or entertaining in some way,

00:09:47 ◼   ► it would only last until the time

00:09:49 ◼   ► that I'd come up with a new one

00:09:50 ◼   ► and I don't wanna keep moving from server to server.

00:09:53 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:09:54 ◼   ► What I also wanted to do was restrain myself from wanting to create more accounts or whatever

00:10:00 ◼   ► on this server that I'm running. So it's just me, right? Myke.social, that's what I'm doing.

00:10:05 ◼   ► I set up, I did what you did, went with master host, the whole thing. And similarly to you,

00:10:12 ◼   ► I did this because if I can own my own domain for something, I'll do it. It's also easier to

00:10:17 ◼   ► to tell people where to find my Mastodon account

00:10:21 ◼   ► rather than the absolutely, abjectly, unequivocally

00:10:25 ◼   ► horrible way that Mastodon domains are formatted.

00:10:28 ◼   ► Like, why is there an app in the domain?

00:10:31 ◼   ► Like, I don't understand why that needs to be there.

00:10:34 ◼   ► Don't tell me.

00:10:35 ◼   ► I just don't think, I just don't understand

00:10:37 ◼   ► why it needs to be there.

00:10:38 ◼   ► So it's just easier for me if I say go to mike.social

00:10:41 ◼   ► and it's just me, right?

00:10:43 ◼   ► It's like easier to find is my expectation.

00:10:47 ◼   ► But yeah, I find it's much more complicated to tell someone where to find your Mastodon

00:10:53 ◼   ► than it is on other social networks.

00:10:54 ◼   ► I mean, I understand that because of the nature of there being multiple servers.

00:10:59 ◼   ► But I think it would just be, if I was like Myke.social/imike would just be like, that's

00:11:04 ◼   ► just neater.

00:11:05 ◼   ► Why does the @ need to be there?

00:11:07 ◼   ► Anyway, I was planning not to join Mastodon, right?

00:11:10 ◼   ► I spoke about this very publicly, like wasn't going to do it, not interested.

00:11:14 ◼   ► And there was over the last couple of months, there has been something which I felt like

00:11:20 ◼   ► was missing where I didn't really have a comfortable place to talk about the work that I'm doing,

00:11:26 ◼   ► which I think was an important part of me being on Twitter.

00:11:30 ◼   ► I tried to reference some things and some shows as like follow out and stuff, but it

00:11:34 ◼   ► just never felt like it fit right.

00:11:37 ◼   ► It felt to, um, it felt like I was kind of just like squeezing a bit of promotion for

00:11:42 ◼   ► me inside of a show which I did not enjoy. And so that had been bouncing around in my brain.

00:11:48 ◼   ► I was also feeling like the community was embracing Mastodon in a way that I did not expect.

00:11:55 ◼   ► Like the follower numbers that some of our friends have got right now, like are quite large,

00:12:01 ◼   ► like way larger than I expected them to be. So it's making me realize that like more than I

00:12:06 ◼   ► expected our community is there and like wants people to be there and I would say

00:12:13 ◼   ► that in the last 24 hours I have felt that feeling like people seem to be very

00:12:19 ◼   ► appreciative of me joining Mastodon which is a very lovely feeling actually

00:12:25 ◼   ► yeah it's kind of been a nice reset point considering I got quite jaded with

00:12:29 ◼   ► Twitter right and so like I don't know it's just nice to feel that kind of

00:12:33 ◼   ► But basically you said to me, we have a call every Monday, and you said to me on

00:12:39 ◼   ► the call, I think it is a responsibility for us to be on the platform. And that

00:12:44 ◼   ► was really bouncing around in my brain and I was like, okay, like I can find a

00:12:48 ◼   ► way to make this work and to hopefully share things that people want to see

00:12:53 ◼   ► from me, what they're interested in, and what I'm up to. And I'm just, one of

00:12:59 ◼   ► my biggest issues with Twitter is me, right? It's like how I use the service

00:13:03 ◼   ► and I don't think I was using it in a healthy way.

00:13:06 ◼   ► ♪ It's me, hi, I'm the problem, it's me ♪

00:13:11 ◼   ► And so I've cut the ways that I've used Twitter.

00:13:14 ◼   ► I'm gonna keep my following list very small.

00:13:16 ◼   ► I was following over a thousand accounts on Twitter.

00:13:19 ◼   ► - Ooh.

00:13:20 ◼   ► - And I'm probably gonna, I'm following like 40 people now

00:13:24 ◼   ► and I wanna keep it that low.

00:13:26 ◼   ► And I'm also setting some time limits.

00:13:28 ◼   ► Like I have a 15 minute app time limit

00:13:32 ◼   ► at the moment per day to use ivory.

00:13:35 ◼   ► And I'm probably gonna try and keep it to that.

00:13:37 ◼   ► And so that gives me enough time to just pop in,

00:13:40 ◼   ► read my timeline, look at any mentions that I've got

00:13:44 ◼   ► and leave and like that's kind of what I'm planning to do.

00:13:48 ◼   ► And I'm also like, for me, like I've come to really love

00:13:51 ◼   ► and appreciate our feedback forms.

00:13:53 ◼   ► And so I'm gonna keep like pushing people.

00:13:56 ◼   ► That is the best place to give feedback for my shows.

00:13:59 ◼   ► Like if you wanna send me follow up links, whatever,

00:14:01 ◼   ► just send it to the appropriate show feedback form.

00:14:05 ◼   ► It's way better.

00:14:06 ◼   ► It's better for you and better for me, right?

00:14:08 ◼   ► And I'm gonna keep asking for that.

00:14:10 ◼   ► But Twitter's there for like, I'm gonna, if you,

00:14:13 ◼   ► Twitter, Mastodon's there if you wanna see what I'm up to.

00:14:16 ◼   ► And I hope, something I genuinely hope is that like,

00:14:20 ◼   ► I will be able to again get to a point

00:14:25 ◼   ► where I feel like I can just share fun little quips.

00:14:28 ◼   ► 'Cause I felt like I couldn't do that anymore on Twitter.

00:14:31 ◼   ► I don't know why but you know, I just felt like it wasn't something that I was able to do anymore

00:14:35 ◼   ► Yeah, and I'm hoping that like I can maybe try and reset that a little bit because you know

00:14:40 ◼   ► I I see you do it and I'm kind of like oh man that looks like fun, you know

00:14:44 ◼   ► So yeah, like the thing about how I was seven is ten years old this year

00:14:48 ◼   ► Exactly. Just a nice thought it's horrifying is what it is. That's ten years since our first I've been to BC, right?

00:14:56 ◼   ► Yes, it is. That was our first one. Wow

00:14:58 ◼   ► That's horrible. Thank you

00:15:00 ◼   ► you. That makes me feel worse than it being Iowa Seven's decade anniversary, but the decade

00:15:09 ◼   ► anniversary of my first and your first. It was your first, right? You've been to Macworld

00:15:13 ◼   ► but not WBC. That's right. Yeah, I went to Macworld 2012 and then WBC 2013. So yeah,

00:15:23 ◼   ► we're both on Mastodon. We're like, we're trying to like make this work for our lives

00:15:27 ◼   ► and stuff, you know, and I speak for both of us to say like thank you to everybody

00:15:31 ◼   ► that has been so kind in welcoming us to the Don. I would like to, I would like to

00:15:37 ◼   ► at this point offer a formal apology to One True John, who I found out

00:15:43 ◼   ► listening to the App Stories Pro Show that I stole the Don from him. That a few

00:15:49 ◼   ► days earlier in our group text he had been calling it the Don and then I

00:15:53 ◼   ► rolled in to connect it and start referencing the Don, so I would like to

00:15:56 ◼   ► apologize to one true john for stealing the don however he said i can use it and keep it so i am

00:16:02 ◼   ► uh thank you john that's good one true don that's good and so yeah we're we're both now on the don

00:16:09 ◼   ► thank you to everybody that has been so kind in welcoming us to the don and uh you can find our

00:16:14 ◼   ► accounts i guess in uh in the show notes if you want to follow us this leads to an inevitable

00:16:21 ◼   ► question about what we're gonna do with the network i don't have the answer to that yet

00:16:26 ◼   ► My thought is that if Masto host works well for both of us for a little while

00:16:31 ◼   ► and Jason's using it with many more users than we are.

00:16:35 ◼   ► And I've got two accounts. You have one, right?

00:16:37 ◼   ► It's not really pushing it.

00:16:39 ◼   ► Looking at creating a relay instance

00:16:43 ◼   ► just for the shows and the network.

00:16:46 ◼   ► I don't want to have humans there in terms of.

00:16:51 ◼   ► I don't want my account to be on the real instance, for example, because it's,

00:16:55 ◼   ► you know, my thoughts are not those of my employer, you know what I mean?

00:16:58 ◼   ► And like I'm making a joke, but like I actually do feel that way.

00:17:00 ◼   ► It's like it feels, I don't know, there's just something about it.

00:17:03 ◼   ► Like we're both individuals as well as we are part of the company.

00:17:06 ◼   ► I think it makes more sense for us to have our own places

00:17:10 ◼   ► and then also Relay can have like a more official place for itself.

00:17:15 ◼   ► Yeah. So we made up doing that.

00:17:16 ◼   ► Doing our own was definitely is a bit of an experiment on how that would work.

00:17:21 ◼   ► But yeah, it would be the show, you know, shows that wanted to use it

00:17:24 ◼   ► because you know, we don't very rarely do we like have an edict for all of our

00:17:27 ◼   ► shows. It's like, Hey, we built this. Like if you want to use it, it's awesome.

00:17:30 ◼   ► If not, that's cool too. Like the feedback form, right?

00:17:32 ◼   ► Like not all shows are using the feedback form and that's fine.

00:17:34 ◼   ► Relay's a confederation of podcasts in a lot of ways.

00:17:38 ◼   ► And so we'll see how that goes and we'll keep people posted. I mean, for now,

00:17:42 ◼   ► connected and relay are both on mastodon.social.

00:17:45 ◼   ► Some of the other shows are various places. And so, yeah, that's, uh,

00:17:50 ◼   ► that's kind of where we are with it.

00:17:51 ◼   ► Yeah. We don't have an answer for that part right now.

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00:19:28 ◼   ► and relay FM so Google and Mozilla are both rumored by nine to five the nine to

00:19:35 ◼   ► five properties they've been some reporting going on it's like across nine

00:19:39 ◼   ► to five Mac Google etc that they are both making new versions of their iOS

00:19:44 ◼   ► browsers that use their own web engines so all browsers on iOS have to use web

00:19:51 ◼   ► kit so Chrome uses WebKit like it's all people are allowed to use but it seems

00:19:57 ◼   ► that these iOS that these companies are making versions putting resources into

00:20:02 ◼   ► making versions of their iOS apps that use their own browsers so what's the new

00:20:08 ◼   ► chromium one what is it called I just jumped out of my mind blink yeah blink I

00:20:13 ◼   ► think yeah and gecko for Mozilla right they're doing this in anticipation of

00:20:19 ◼   ► Apple either being forced to or deciding to drop the WebKit requirement. This is

00:20:25 ◼   ► because of antitrust pressure in the US and in Europe it's like

00:20:29 ◼   ► continuing to mount. Specifically in the UK this has been called out by the

00:20:35 ◼   ► Competition of Markets Authority. I want to read a quote because I actually, I

00:20:38 ◼   ► don't know, this felt like one of those things where I was like, where I feel

00:20:41 ◼   ► like it's quite rare where something that comes from a legislative body

00:20:45 ◼   ► actually feels informed. Like you know like a lot of times you read these

00:20:48 ◼   ► things in tech and it's like do these people have any idea right? Very famous

00:20:52 ◼   ► famously right a congressperson asked Mark Zuckerberg how Facebook makes money

00:20:57 ◼   ► he's like sir we run ads like okay let's... Or like when people ask him how to like

00:21:03 ◼   ► turn off their iPhone or whatever yeah so it says Apple bans alternatives to

00:21:10 ◼   ► its own browser engine on its mobile devices a restriction that is unique to

00:21:14 ◼   ► Apple. The CMA is concerned this severely limits the potential for rival browsers

00:21:20 ◼   ► to differentiate themselves from Safari, for example on features such as speed

00:21:24 ◼   ► and functionality, and limits Apple's incentives to invest in its browser

00:21:28 ◼   ► engine. The restriction also seriously inhibits the capability of web apps,

00:21:33 ◼   ► depriving consumers and businesses of the full benefits of innovative

00:21:37 ◼   ► technology. Just like it makes put it is that they're right right like you know

00:21:42 ◼   ► like it feels like it stops some PWAs from being as effective as they could

00:21:49 ◼   ► potentially be which is obviously something Apple would want right yeah

00:21:53 ◼   ► come to our app store and it does stop like Google for example to be able to

00:21:58 ◼   ► tout some benefit of blink on on Iowa on like on all of the platforms that it's

00:22:05 ◼   ► available on yeah and it's such a weird thing to think about like this is what

00:22:09 ◼   ► Microsoft got in trouble for, right? In a way. I know that they were like, it was browser

00:22:14 ◼   ► related but they were like defaulting the browsers, right? You had to use Internet Explorer.

00:22:19 ◼   ► This is like weird to me, like all of the things that Apple does, like why do they care

00:22:24 ◼   ► about this part so specifically? You know what I mean? Like it's very strange. But this

00:22:30 ◼   ► is just part of the million things that they're probably going to have to do. I think, you

00:22:34 ◼   ► have to remind me, was this part of that report, I think from Mark Gurman, where he was talking

00:22:41 ◼   ► about like Apple needing, like considering like opening up at this WWDC? Was browsers

00:22:49 ◼   ► part of that? It was. Okay. And if you go back in time, when Apple first had this, you

00:22:55 ◼   ► know, it's been part of iOS from the beginning, right? From the beginning of the App Store,

00:22:59 ◼   ► you could not have your own browser engine there.

00:23:06 ◼   ► They said it was about security, right?

00:23:09 ◼   ► That browser engines run code and you don't want to have someone else's code running on

00:23:19 ◼   ► the device.

00:23:20 ◼   ► But in the, what, how many years has it been since the App Store, say 23, 15 years since

00:23:28 ◼   ► the App Store, there's been a lot of progress in terms of browser security.

00:23:32 ◼   ► And I think they are at a point now where it does very much feel like an anti-competitive

00:23:36 ◼   ► move.

00:23:38 ◼   ► I think it's very exciting.

00:23:41 ◼   ► I think in particular what I'm going to be looking for if this happens is, does this

00:23:46 ◼   ► allow Chrome or Firefox or the Arc browser?

00:23:51 ◼   ► There's a lot of innovation happening on the desktop browser space, which is a weird thing

00:23:57 ◼   ► to say in 2023, but it's true. You and Jason spoke about the Arc browser on Upgrade Plus

00:24:02 ◼   ► this week in particular, but it is not happening on the iPhone. It's not happening on the iPad,

00:24:10 ◼   ► right? You have some interesting things like Chrome is there and I use Chrome on the desktop

00:24:15 ◼   ► and I've got Chrome on the phone for like my history and tabs to be there, but it'll

00:24:19 ◼   ► be using Safari because of the browser extensions because I do run a content blocker and I have

00:24:24 ◼   ► like one that like forces websites into a dark mode if they don't have their own and

00:24:30 ◼   ► you know, various things.

00:24:32 ◼   ► One password, you know, it's a great Safari plugin on the iPhone and iPad.

00:24:37 ◼   ► But those aren't available in third party browsers.

00:24:40 ◼   ► So what I'm hopeful is not only can they bring their rendering engines, but maybe they can

00:24:45 ◼   ► also bring some of these other features and really be competitive because I think on the

00:24:50 ◼   ► desktop, Apple really pushes Safari.

00:24:54 ◼   ► I mean, every single WWDC going back to the first one

00:24:58 ◼   ► that Safari was introduced,

00:25:00 ◼   ► they talk about how fast it is,

00:25:02 ◼   ► all the features they're bringing.

00:25:04 ◼   ► It's a core part of their messaging every single year.

00:25:08 ◼   ► And it's in part because they're going up against Chrome

00:25:13 ◼   ► and others who are also doing a lot of innovative things.

00:25:17 ◼   ► But again, on the iPhone and iPad, it's not just there.

00:25:19 ◼   ► And so I'm hopeful that if this happens

00:25:22 ◼   ► and you can get like the full Chrome experience

00:25:24 ◼   ► on the iPhone, on the iPad,

00:25:26 ◼   ► or the full Firefox experience,

00:25:27 ◼   ► whatever your browser choice is,

00:25:29 ◼   ► that it will continue to push Apple

00:25:31 ◼   ► to make Safari better and better,

00:25:33 ◼   ► where they really haven't had,

00:25:35 ◼   ► I mean, honestly, they really haven't had real competition

00:25:38 ◼   ► on the iPhone, not really,

00:25:39 ◼   ► because of all these limitations.

00:25:42 ◼   ► And so I really hope that we see this come to pass

00:25:45 ◼   ► in this WWDC, and I think it'd be good for them

00:25:49 ◼   ► from this legal perspective too, right?

00:25:51 ◼   ► Apple loves to die on certain hills and okay,

00:25:55 ◼   ► this is a hill they probably shouldn't die on.

00:25:57 ◼   ► And so if they're willing to give in

00:25:58 ◼   ► and make this a policy change, that's all it is.

00:26:02 ◼   ► It's just a policy, right?

00:26:03 ◼   ► There's nothing, I almost said physically,

00:26:05 ◼   ► but that's not really right.

00:26:06 ◼   ► There's nothing that I'm aware of like on a technical level,

00:26:09 ◼   ► why you couldn't run another browser engine on iOS.

00:26:12 ◼   ► - Like they can still, okay, so few companies, right?

00:26:15 ◼   ► Like they can still work with them and be like,

00:26:17 ◼   ► all right, we're gonna allow this,

00:26:20 ◼   ► but these are the security rules.

00:26:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, but I think they should do that.

00:26:24 ◼   ► And my guess is they probably will.

00:26:25 ◼   ► Maybe it'll be like CarPlay.

00:26:29 ◼   ► You can't just write a CarPlay app.

00:26:30 ◼   ► You have to have an entitlement for it.

00:26:32 ◼   ► I could see them going that route.

00:26:34 ◼   ► And yeah, that's probably good.

00:26:35 ◼   ► So like random person on the internet

00:26:38 ◼   ► doesn't make a browser that's actually like

00:26:39 ◼   ► taking all my information and selling it

00:26:41 ◼   ► to some nefarious group.

00:26:44 ◼   ► That's probably a good thing to do here.

00:26:46 ◼   ► But clearly the time has come for them to do something.

00:26:50 ◼   ► and I'm cautiously optimistic that that will go well.

00:26:54 ◼   ► - 'Cause there are what, like three companies

00:26:57 ◼   ► that have their own engines now probably?

00:26:59 ◼   ► Like Opera, does Opera still have its own engine?

00:27:01 ◼   ► I think it does.

00:27:02 ◼   ► - I think so. - And then Mozilla and Google.

00:27:05 ◼   ► 'Cause Microsoft uses Blink or Chromium, right?

00:27:10 ◼   ► For Edge.

00:27:11 ◼   ► Like, so there's so few,

00:27:13 ◼   ► they could just get all these companies in a room, right?

00:27:16 ◼   ► Like apparently, Ryan says Opera is Chromium as well.

00:27:20 ◼   ► So it's like there's three companies

00:27:23 ◼   ► and Apple's one of them, like they can work this out.

00:27:26 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:27:27 ◼   ► - Realistically, they could just work with Google.

00:27:29 ◼   ► So right, sorry, sorry, Mozilla.

00:27:31 ◼   ► This may be being time for a new version of Edge

00:27:36 ◼   ► to come to iOS featuring chat GPT.

00:27:40 ◼   ► - Oh, I see what you did there.

00:27:42 ◼   ► We were on one topic, now we're on another topic.

00:27:45 ◼   ► - In the next one, this is a segue.

00:27:47 ◼   ► - Yes, this is super interesting.

00:27:50 ◼   ► I'm on the wait list, I think you are too.

00:27:52 ◼   ► I don't think you've gotten to play with it yet.

00:27:54 ◼   ► But I spent the morning watching and listening

00:27:56 ◼   ► to a bunch of stuff about this.

00:27:58 ◼   ► There's an excellent interview that Nilay Patel did

00:28:01 ◼   ► with Satya Nadella on the "Decoder" podcast,

00:28:04 ◼   ► which is just great.

00:28:06 ◼   ► But it's so, "Decoder" is great.

00:28:08 ◼   ► I really, I mean, honestly, like Apple, Google,

00:28:12 ◼   ► and Microsoft all have three incredibly impressive CEOs

00:28:17 ◼   ► to me, like I like all three of them.

00:28:18 ◼   ► And I think all three of them are doing interesting things

00:28:20 ◼   ► in their own way.

00:28:22 ◼   ► But what Microsoft has done,

00:28:23 ◼   ► they made this big investment into open AI,

00:28:26 ◼   ► and they are basically bringing chat,

00:28:29 ◼   ► GT, GPT, GTP, CGP, chat, CGP gray,

00:28:34 ◼   ► as a, like a parallel track in the Bing search engine.

00:28:39 ◼   ► So you can go to Bing and you could search,

00:28:43 ◼   ► what year did the 20th anniversary Mac come out?

00:28:45 ◼   ► it will, you know, probably leave you something on Wikipedia or something on 512 pixels.

00:28:49 ◼   ► And then, in addition to that, you'll be able to chat with the AI to for further information.

00:28:57 ◼   ► And what they're doing is, they're still using the basis that we know as the service as the

00:29:03 ◼   ► services now, but they're infusing it with information from their search engine.

00:29:08 ◼   ► And they're what they are saying, this will be able to do is provide even better answers

00:29:15 ◼   ► to queries, it will allow you to explore that information while still making sure that publishers

00:29:23 ◼   ► are still getting traffic.

00:29:25 ◼   ► Because this is a very sticky point in search engine land, especially when it comes to Google,

00:29:32 ◼   ► right?

00:29:33 ◼   ► If you search Google for certain things, they have these information boxes that come up,

00:29:37 ◼   ► and Bing does it too, to a degree, of, "Oh, I don't actually need to go to a website to

00:29:42 ◼   ► to read when the 20th anniversary mat came out

00:29:44 ◼   ► 'cause it just puts it in a box and tells me.

00:29:46 ◼   ► And maybe there's a little hyperlink at the bottom

00:29:48 ◼   ► that says source and I can click on that

00:29:50 ◼   ► then I can go and Steven's article.

00:29:51 ◼   ► But 99.9% of the time people are just gonna read

00:29:54 ◼   ► the information and leave.

00:29:56 ◼   ► And Yelp in particular, I think it's sort of led the charge

00:30:00 ◼   ► against Google in this.

00:30:01 ◼   ► I'm like, look, don't just scrape our data

00:30:03 ◼   ► and portray it as your own, right?

00:30:06 ◼   ► So Microsoft is saying, we are being very intentional

00:30:10 ◼   ► about when the AI or when the search engine surfaces data,

00:30:15 ◼   ► you're gonna know where it came from

00:30:18 ◼   ► and it's gonna be easy to go back to the source.

00:30:21 ◼   ► And I think that's very important.

00:30:24 ◼   ► - And I'm intrigued to see,

00:30:26 ◼   ► like in the interview with Nilay,

00:30:28 ◼   ► he's like, we're gonna have like a KPI on this, right?

00:30:31 ◼   ► Like about how much traffic we're sending.

00:30:33 ◼   ► So he seems like, at least they seem,

00:30:36 ◼   ► of all the companies doing this kind of stuff,

00:30:39 ◼   ► this feels like from the top down the most focused on trying to make sure that where the information

00:30:45 ◼   ► is coming from is still given some kind of credit and and revenue right you go through go to ads

00:30:52 ◼   ► and then ads are generated on the website everyone's happy but i think we have to wait and see how that

00:31:00 ◼   ► goes because i don't know what you do when you google things but if i google something and gives

00:31:06 ◼   ► me the answer at the top of the page, I don't click the website. I've got the answer and

00:31:12 ◼   ► this just feels like it's going to do that even more, like way more detailed. So I'm

00:31:17 ◼   ► intrigued to see how that's going to shake out seriously, you know. And he was saying

00:31:23 ◼   ► that like, oh, if traffic's going down, we're going to tweak the way that we, I mean, I

00:31:27 ◼   ► believe him, but at the same time, I want to see how that actually goes. Like this is,

00:31:36 ◼   ► All of this stuff is like such sticky territory right now.

00:31:41 ◼   ► It is.

00:31:42 ◼   ► But for me personally, and you know, if you've listened to episodes of Cortex in the last

00:31:47 ◼   ► few months, you'll understand that I'm very skeptical of this technology.

00:31:52 ◼   ► However, if I'm gonna trust a company to do this, I think it actually might be Microsoft.

00:32:00 ◼   ► I don't know why, but I feel like it kind of makes sense.

00:32:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, and they're incentivized to do it correctly

00:32:09 ◼   ► because they're so far behind.

00:32:11 ◼   ► And I think they're incentivized

00:32:14 ◼   ► to take this really seriously.

00:32:15 ◼   ► And if you listen to the interview,

00:32:17 ◼   ► or I mean, he did a bunch,

00:32:18 ◼   ► he's done a bunch of press stuff over the last 24 hours,

00:32:20 ◼   ► like go consume any of it.

00:32:22 ◼   ► They're deadly serious about this.

00:32:25 ◼   ► And they're really serious about taking market share

00:32:29 ◼   ► from Google search.

00:32:30 ◼   ► And is this the way they do that?

00:32:32 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:32:33 ◼   ► Like is, is the chat bot revolution going to change everything computing?

00:32:39 ◼   ► I don't think so.

00:32:40 ◼   ► Probably not.

00:32:41 ◼   ► No.

00:32:42 ◼   ► But they have to try.

00:32:43 ◼   ► And I think out of the various things that have come and gone over the years, this is

00:32:50 ◼   ► potentially the most interesting and combining it with a search engine.

00:32:53 ◼   ► Yeah, there's obvious downsides.

00:32:55 ◼   ► The biggest one, we've talked about it before.

00:32:57 ◼   ► These services are very confident even when they're completely wrong and they're hoping

00:33:01 ◼   ► to by infusing it with search engine information, giving it better data so it can be confident

00:33:08 ◼   ► and right instead of confident like talking about nonsense.

00:33:12 ◼   ► And so we'll see how it goes.

00:33:13 ◼   ► I'm excited to get in on the waitlist and see how this goes.

00:33:18 ◼   ► They're also bringing it to edge the browser and so it can help you in various places around

00:33:24 ◼   ► the web to to get certain tasks done.

00:33:28 ◼   ► Now that, at least from what I've read and listened to, is a little more hand-wavy in

00:33:32 ◼   ► terms of exactly what that's going to look like and what it will be able to do.

00:33:35 ◼   ► I think the focus, I think the important thing is bringing it to Bing.

00:33:40 ◼   ► But it is very interesting and it clearly has Google spooked because they rushed out

00:33:45 ◼   ► this announcement about their version of this that they've been working on internally and

00:33:48 ◼   ► they rushed that out the day before the Microsoft announcement.

00:33:56 ◼   ► feels like a move out of weakness or out of fear and that was very interesting to

00:34:00 ◼   ► me. They didn't really have a choice though. No. Right because Microsoft... okay so two

00:34:06 ◼   ► things Satya Nadella, love him, he is a stone-cold killer. Like this guy, like

00:34:12 ◼   ► some of the stuff that he says in this interview, I was going oh my god

00:34:17 ◼   ► like there's one I think he says like I was just trying to find it but

00:34:22 ◼   ► - But, Neil says something along the lines of

00:34:25 ◼   ► fighting with Google about this and if they think

00:34:30 ◼   ► he's gonna beat Google and he references how

00:34:34 ◼   ► they're bringing Google to the dance on this one.

00:34:39 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:34:40 ◼   ► - And if what you remember afterwards is they did that.

00:34:42 ◼   ► Like I was like, "Oh my God."

00:34:43 ◼   ► And I just loved the way it's like,

00:34:46 ◼   ► "We have a great relationship with Google.

00:34:48 ◼   ► We have a great partnership with them.

00:34:49 ◼   ► We wanna take some of their market share."

00:34:51 ◼   ► It's just like, ah, he is like, he is unbelievable.

00:34:56 ◼   ► This guy is unbelievable, right?

00:34:57 ◼   ► Like in general, I think he is overlooked,

00:34:59 ◼   ► at least in our community a lot of the times,

00:35:01 ◼   ► because Microsoft isn't necessarily doing things

00:35:04 ◼   ► that are interesting to the type of stuff

00:35:06 ◼   ► that we talk about.

00:35:07 ◼   ► But like you think about what he has done to that company,

00:35:10 ◼   ► he has completely changed the company

00:35:11 ◼   ► and everything that it does and everything it's focused on.

00:35:14 ◼   ► And this is perfect because they did this partnership

00:35:16 ◼   ► OpenAI, basically gave them Azure for free. They then used OpenAI and what they needed

00:35:24 ◼   ► for OpenAI to build their own Azure AI product, which they will sell you. Then instead of

00:35:29 ◼   ► buying OpenAI, which they probably could have done, but they knew, this is so smart, that

00:35:36 ◼   ► it wouldn't get through antitrust, they've basically just locked them in. They gave them

00:35:41 ◼   ► a huge investment, which has got all of these weird, like, you know, like, once the money's

00:35:48 ◼   ► paid off, which OpenAI may never do, right? Because it's complicated for that company

00:35:54 ◼   ► to try and make money, I think, over time. But they probably will, but who knows? But

00:35:58 ◼   ► even then, like, it converts to a large share that Microsoft then have in it. Like, and

00:36:03 ◼   ► this way, he can just go ahead and do this now, where if they tried to buy them, it would

00:36:08 ◼   ► get locked up in antitrust regulation and then Google would be able to come in with

00:36:13 ◼   ► their thing. But this way he's like, "I know what we'll do." And now immediately here it

00:36:18 ◼   ► is and Google is now backed into a corner because everything was being said that Google

00:36:24 ◼   ► didn't want to do this because they're scared. They're worried about what their reputation

00:36:30 ◼   ► will be like if their AI starts doing strange things or gives wrong information. Both of

00:36:37 ◼   ► them it will do. But this kind of stuff is not going to hurt Bing because nobody trusts

00:36:40 ◼   ► Bing anyway. So this is genius. This is a checkmate move on Google and I have no idea.

00:36:49 ◼   ► This is interesting to me because I have no idea what's going to come next after this.

00:36:53 ◼   ► But it feels like if they can get this out quick enough, the situation is going to change.

00:36:59 ◼   ► Because if you can go to Bing to talk to the AI, that is going to really upset Google and

00:37:05 ◼   ► and it's going to upset open AI in general, right?

00:37:07 ◼   ► Because everyone likes to go to the open AI website for this.

00:37:11 ◼   ► But like you just go to Bing,

00:37:13 ◼   ► you just start talking to the AI

00:37:14 ◼   ► and also you can have this,

00:37:15 ◼   ► like as you say in the Edge browser,

00:37:17 ◼   ► it's just like they call it a co-pilot,

00:37:19 ◼   ► which is a thing they also have in GitHub

00:37:21 ◼   ► for like AI of helping you write code.

00:37:23 ◼   ► This has been around for a little while,

00:37:24 ◼   ► but they have it in Edge and it will just pop up

00:37:27 ◼   ► and it will give you more context

00:37:28 ◼   ► for the websites that you're on.

00:37:30 ◼   ► Man, it's very smart.

00:37:33 ◼   ► He's a smart guy.

00:37:34 ◼   ► Here's what he's doing.

00:37:35 ◼   ► - Yeah, he's really,

00:37:36 ◼   ► and it comes up in the decoder interview,

00:37:38 ◼   ► but he has taken Microsoft from a Windows centric,

00:37:44 ◼   ► basically the Windows company, Windows and Office, right?

00:37:46 ◼   ► Which is what they were under Gates,

00:37:48 ◼   ► but in particular, Balmer.

00:37:51 ◼   ► And they tried mobile and they,

00:37:52 ◼   ► remember they bought Nokia

00:37:54 ◼   ► and then sold it for like 10 cents on the dollar?

00:37:57 ◼   ► Wild times.

00:37:59 ◼   ► But he has really taken Microsoft to a place

00:38:02 ◼   ► where they are an application and services company.

00:38:06 ◼   ► I think you mentioned this,

00:38:07 ◼   ► but basically all of these AI tools

00:38:08 ◼   ► that we've all been playing with,

00:38:10 ◼   ► basically all of them run on Azure services, right?

00:38:14 ◼   ► That is a huge business for them.

00:38:16 ◼   ► It's like we build Office,

00:38:18 ◼   ► it's on every single platform, right?

00:38:21 ◼   ► Teams is everywhere.

00:38:22 ◼   ► We haven't even mentioned it.

00:38:23 ◼   ► They've also building this into a new version of Teams

00:38:26 ◼   ► where it can do things like help you schedule a meeting.

00:38:29 ◼   ► - I missed that part.

00:38:30 ◼   ► But if I could just give one very slight,

00:38:32 ◼   ► I'm not saying you're wrong, but like,

00:38:34 ◼   ► it's a big business for them, the Open AI stuff,

00:38:39 ◼   ► because they've been able to do it,

00:38:40 ◼   ► but Open AI has not given Microsoft a penny.

00:38:42 ◼   ► Like it's, all of this has been free to them,

00:38:44 ◼   ► which is another Galaxy Brain move, right?

00:38:48 ◼   ► Just like, oh no, don't worry about it.

00:38:50 ◼   ► Here's some credits, it's fine.

00:38:52 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:38:53 ◼   ► - And now what are you gonna do?

00:38:53 ◼   ► It's just like, this is next level stuff.

00:38:56 ◼   ► - But it really just means they're looking at,

00:38:58 ◼   ► they're gonna be on their own platforms, right?

00:39:01 ◼   ► there's a version of the timeline

00:39:03 ◼   ► where this is like a Windows 11 feature,

00:39:07 ◼   ► and that's it, right?

00:39:08 ◼   ► But like, no, we have these other businesses

00:39:10 ◼   ► outside of Windows, outside of the PC,

00:39:13 ◼   ► that are the browser, right?

00:39:14 ◼   ► Edge runs everywhere.

00:39:16 ◼   ► Teams runs, I mean, you can get a toaster

00:39:18 ◼   ► that runs Microsoft Teams, I think.

00:39:20 ◼   ► Like, it's everywhere.

00:39:21 ◼   ► And that is really what he's been able to do,

00:39:23 ◼   ► and one reason I really respect the job he's done

00:39:26 ◼   ► at Microsoft because he has totally redefined

00:39:30 ◼   ► what Microsoft does and if this is successful,

00:39:35 ◼   ► then it's like a cherry on top of everything

00:39:37 ◼   ► they've been able to do the last few years.

00:39:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, this is an arms race now.

00:39:42 ◼   ► Like, and it's, it felt like it was going that way anyway.

00:39:46 ◼   ► Like, oh, clearly all these companies

00:39:48 ◼   ► are gonna start focusing on this now.

00:39:50 ◼   ► But it seems to have accelerated at a breakneck pace

00:39:53 ◼   ► in like the last four days.

00:39:56 ◼   ► because this was like a surprise event

00:39:58 ◼   ► that Microsoft did, right?

00:40:00 ◼   ► Like they were just like,

00:40:01 ◼   ► "We're doing this event about AI."

00:40:02 ◼   ► And then Google's like, "Oh no!"

00:40:04 ◼   ► Right?

00:40:05 ◼   ► 'Cause everyone knew this was going to happen.

00:40:07 ◼   ► Like it was obvious that it was going to happen.

00:40:09 ◼   ► My assumption though is that Microsoft would move slowly.

00:40:13 ◼   ► Like I thought this was gonna be months

00:40:16 ◼   ► until they announced something,

00:40:18 ◼   ► like after the open AI investment,

00:40:21 ◼   ► but it seems like they had already been working on it.

00:40:23 ◼   ► So they were ready to go.

00:40:25 ◼   ► And so now Google's had to be like, well, we're

00:40:28 ◼   ► also doing this.

00:40:30 ◼   ► Yeah, I believe that Google has the best chance

00:40:35 ◼   ► at being the best version of this,

00:40:37 ◼   ► because of the amount of data that they have.

00:40:40 ◼   ► But it's whether they are willing to let the reins off

00:40:45 ◼   ► in a way that OpenAI does, I think, sometimes.

00:40:49 ◼   ► And I don't know that they will.

00:40:51 ◼   ► So yeah, it's fascinating.

00:40:53 ◼   ► So everything is gonna have an AI,

00:40:54 ◼   ► but also everything is a computer.

00:40:57 ◼   ► This is what I've learned this week.

00:40:59 ◼   ► So I was scrolling through RSS the other day,

00:41:02 ◼   ► came across this MacRumors article.

00:41:04 ◼   ► I was gonna read the headline to you.

00:41:06 ◼   ► Apple releases new MagSafe Duo firmware.

00:41:11 ◼   ► Remember the MagSafe Duo charger?

00:41:12 ◼   ► It was the, it's the white one that like folds open

00:41:15 ◼   ► like a clam and you can put your phone,

00:41:17 ◼   ► as long as it's a certain size phone on one side

00:41:19 ◼   ► and an Apple Watch on the other,

00:41:21 ◼   ► as long as it's a certain size Apple Watch.

00:41:23 ◼   ► and charges them both.

00:41:24 ◼   ► And you have to have like a 30 watt adapter,

00:41:26 ◼   ► not the 29, 'cause 29 won't do it.

00:41:28 ◼   ► - It's the product with the most asterisks ever, right?

00:41:31 ◼   ► - I know, yeah.

00:41:32 ◼   ► - You have to have the right product and the right charger

00:41:35 ◼   ► to get the charger to work.

00:41:36 ◼   ► - Mm-hmm.

00:41:37 ◼   ► We own one of these.

00:41:39 ◼   ► I got it 'cause Mary would have something like really compact

00:41:41 ◼   ► to like leave in a, like her backpack.

00:41:44 ◼   ► And so I got her one and it's not great.

00:41:47 ◼   ► I regret spending the money on it

00:41:49 ◼   ► and it just lives in our house and in her backpack, I guess.

00:41:54 ◼   ► But yes, so it has firmware in there,

00:41:57 ◼   ► has some sort of little tiny computer in there.

00:42:00 ◼   ► I'm gonna again read from this MacRumors piece.

00:42:04 ◼   ► There is no clear method

00:42:05 ◼   ► for updating the MacSafe Duo's firmware,

00:42:07 ◼   ► but it needs to be plugged in and connected

00:42:09 ◼   ► to an Apple device for a firmware update to initiate.

00:42:13 ◼   ► - I don't know how it's doing it.

00:42:14 ◼   ► How's it doing it?

00:42:16 ◼   ► - I don't know.

00:42:16 ◼   ► And apparently you can check the firmware version.

00:42:20 ◼   ► They linked to this other article

00:42:22 ◼   ► that explains how this works.

00:42:26 ◼   ► The regular-- - Where's the data going?

00:42:29 ◼   ► - Over the USB-C cable into the tiny computer, you know?

00:42:34 ◼   ► Little baby-- - From where though?

00:42:37 ◼   ► - From the other Apple device, I don't know.

00:42:39 ◼   ► - But you're not connecting it physically, right?

00:42:43 ◼   ► - So this, to update this,

00:42:45 ◼   ► it seems like you have to plug the charger

00:42:47 ◼   ► into like your laptop or maybe an iPad

00:42:49 ◼   ► with something with a USB-C port on it.

00:42:51 ◼   ► - Really?

00:42:52 ◼   ► - It's what it seems like.

00:42:54 ◼   ► - Who's gonna do that?

00:42:55 ◼   ► No one's gonna do that.

00:42:56 ◼   ► - No one. - Nobody's gonna do that.

00:42:58 ◼   ► - No one.

00:42:59 ◼   ► The existing, like the regular plain MagSafe charging puck

00:43:04 ◼   ► apparently also has firmware you can update this way.

00:43:07 ◼   ► I mean, it's probably not a huge surprise.

00:43:08 ◼   ► I remember this article years and years ago,

00:43:12 ◼   ► I'm gonna see if I can find it.

00:43:15 ◼   ► It was like about the 30 pin to HDMI adapter,

00:43:20 ◼   ► maybe they used to sell for like the iPad

00:43:23 ◼   ► and how it, someone like took it apart.

00:43:26 ◼   ► Yes, in 2013, here we go, I found it.

00:43:29 ◼   ► Panic did it.

00:43:30 ◼   ► Okay, so Panic cracked one of these open

00:43:32 ◼   ► and did a blog post explaining the tiny computer

00:43:37 ◼   ► inside the, okay, it was the lightning digital AV adapter.

00:43:42 ◼   ► Just, just amazing.

00:43:44 ◼   ► Tiny computers and everything.

00:43:46 ◼   ► That's what we've learned.

00:43:48 ◼   ► So go update your Mac safe duo charger.

00:43:50 ◼   ► I should try it and report back.

00:43:54 ◼   ► - I feel like it's got to do it somehow

00:43:57 ◼   ► without a computer being involved in the middle.

00:44:00 ◼   ► I don't know how it's doing that,

00:44:02 ◼   ► but I feel like it has to do that

00:44:06 ◼   ► because otherwise, yeah, I don't know.

00:44:08 ◼   ► It's never going to work.

00:44:09 ◼   ► Who's going to do it?

00:44:10 ◼   ► It's like, oh, let me plug my charger into my MacBook.

00:44:12 ◼   ► Like why would anybody do that?

00:44:14 ◼   ► You know, I don't know.

00:44:16 ◼   ► - Zach points out the real problem is the MacSafe Duo

00:44:18 ◼   ► is not a cube.

00:44:19 ◼   ► That's true.

00:44:21 ◼   ► This episode of Connected is made possible by Electric.

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00:45:41 ◼   ► So Jason published the Six Colors report card for 2022.

00:45:47 ◼   ► We're going to talk about it in detail on Upgrade on Monday.

00:45:51 ◼   ► We're not going to talk about everybody's responses

00:45:53 ◼   ► unless you want to dig into them.

00:45:55 ◼   ► What I wanted to talk to you about today

00:45:57 ◼   ► was your full answers to the report card

00:46:01 ◼   ► because you published them on your website.

00:46:03 ◼   ► And so I know that you put a lot of time into these.

00:46:07 ◼   ► I think much to Jason's chagrin.

00:46:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, he was like, "What are you doing?"

00:46:12 ◼   ► - How much did you, it was like 2000 words or something?

00:46:15 ◼   ► - Let me see, let me open the post, I can tell you.

00:46:18 ◼   ► - I think he literally said in the email,

00:46:20 ◼   ► "Please don't write an essay."

00:46:22 ◼   ► And then you not only did it, you then in Slack were like,

00:46:25 ◼   ► "Ha, send you thousands of words."

00:46:28 ◼   ► - 2100 words.

00:46:29 ◼   ► - Great, I'm sure he was super happy

00:46:30 ◼   ► to receive those from you.

00:46:32 ◼   ► - I'm sorry, Jason.

00:46:32 ◼   ► - And so I thought we could maybe dig into

00:46:35 ◼   ► these a little bit and you can explain yourself

00:46:39 ◼   ► if you want to. - Okay.

00:46:41 ◼   ► - So we'll start out with the Mac.

00:46:43 ◼   ► You went five out of five.

00:46:44 ◼   ► I kind of summed it up as hardware,

00:46:47 ◼   ► the goodness of hardware,

00:46:48 ◼   ► trumping some of the weird parts of software.

00:46:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, I think the Apple Silicon transition

00:46:53 ◼   ► has been incredibly successful so far,

00:46:57 ◼   ► even with some of the weirdness, right?

00:46:59 ◼   ► Like, where's the Mac Pro, Apple?

00:47:02 ◼   ► What's going on with the big iMac?

00:47:03 ◼   ► You know, why is the small iMac still only in one?

00:47:05 ◼   ► Like, there's weirdness there.

00:47:07 ◼   ► But despite that, the hardware they've been able to put out,

00:47:12 ◼   ► I think the M2 MacBook Air is the highlight of the year.

00:47:15 ◼   ► And maybe honestly, the high point in the transition so far,

00:47:19 ◼   ► it's such a good notebook and--

00:47:22 ◼   ► - 100%, I think that's the case.

00:47:24 ◼   ► Like for me, I mean, I've said this,

00:47:26 ◼   ► it's my favorite Mac of all time.

00:47:28 ◼   ► But I think maybe the high points would be the Mac Studio

00:47:32 ◼   ► or the M2 MacBook Air, right?

00:47:34 ◼   ► Of like, this is what they can do.

00:47:36 ◼   ► and I think the MacBook Air is just a banana's good computer.

00:47:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's so awesome.

00:47:42 ◼   ► And so yeah, I think on the hardware front,

00:47:45 ◼   ► they have definitely been doing very well.

00:47:48 ◼   ► Now, it's probably taking longer than they wanted,

00:47:50 ◼   ► but the products that end up on the shelves

00:47:54 ◼   ► have been all really impressive in their own ways,

00:47:57 ◼   ► and I've just been very pleased

00:48:00 ◼   ► with how the transition has gone so far

00:48:02 ◼   ► and what they've been able to do with this platform change.

00:48:05 ◼   ► You know, I know that there have been some interesting things in Mac OS this year, like

00:48:10 ◼   ► some good, some weird, like, but you don't feel that they affect the overall score? Or were you

00:48:16 ◼   ► not thinking of Mac OS too much in your score? No, I think that the weirdest thing in Ventura

00:48:21 ◼   ► is Stage Manager. And like on iPad OS, it's a mode that you can turn on or off. And so you can live

00:48:28 ◼   ► your life never knowing that Stage Manager exists. And look, a lot of people do like it, right? I

00:48:33 ◼   ► I heard from some people after I published this, like, "Stage Manager's awesome!

00:48:37 ◼   ► If it fits the way you work, that's great.

00:48:38 ◼   ► I'm genuinely glad that you have found something that works for you."

00:48:43 ◼   ► But clearly, I think everyone would agree that the Stage Manager, at the very least,

00:48:47 ◼   ► is a bit odd in places.

00:48:49 ◼   ► And but, you know, every version of Mac OS, it feels like, has something weird that doesn't

00:48:53 ◼   ► really go anywhere and kind of sticks around.

00:48:56 ◼   ► And that's fine, because you can just keep working the way that you have always worked.

00:49:01 ◼   ► So I don't look at Stage Manager and Ventura as like a big mistake that they're forcing

00:49:08 ◼   ► everyone into.

00:49:09 ◼   ► I kind of view it like I view Launchpad.

00:49:10 ◼   ► Like I personally think Launchpad is silly, but I'm sure the people out there who love

00:49:14 ◼   ► it and use it every day.

00:49:15 ◼   ► And so Apple giving people options is never a bad thing.

00:49:19 ◼   ► So with the iPhone, we went four out of five.

00:49:24 ◼   ► You referenced the Dynamic Island, the Always On Display and Lock Screen widgets as like

00:49:29 ◼   ► a big thing but you would like to see some some work done in them too? Yeah I

00:49:33 ◼   ► think all of those are a good 1.0. I think there are times that where if you

00:49:39 ◼   ► have a lot of things going on the dynamic island it's kind of a bit

00:49:43 ◼   ► confusing right so if you have like a podcast playing and you have a timer

00:49:47 ◼   ► going and maybe you're using an app to like keep up with a basketball game

00:49:51 ◼   ► score right things that I do all the time it's like oh why are these two up

00:49:57 ◼   ► there. Where did the third one go? How do I find it again? Right, some of that feels

00:50:01 ◼   ► a bit a bit weird. I think in terms of the the lock screen, I think adding the

00:50:07 ◼   ► option to to get rid of the wallpaper altogether is good. I think a lot of

00:50:12 ◼   ► people including myself like that. But the lock screen widgets feel just

00:50:17 ◼   ► unnecessarily restrictive in the number you can have and the layout. So for

00:50:22 ◼   ► instance, if you use a large one and two small ones, the large one has to be on

00:50:28 ◼   ► the left, it won't put it on the right. Why? Like, why is that the decision that

00:50:34 ◼   ► Apple is forcing on me? What if I want it on the other side? So I'm just hopeful

00:50:38 ◼   ► that they continue to improve it, but I think as a first stab at a always-on

00:50:42 ◼   ► display, I really like it. And like, I'm using the widgets, and yeah, I've got

00:50:46 ◼   ► annoyances about how many I can have and where I can put them, but they have made

00:50:50 ◼   ► my iPhone genuinely more useful in day-to-day life. The only way it didn't

00:50:56 ◼   ► get a 5 out of 5 for me is I don't think the iPhone 14 strategy, in particularly

00:51:02 ◼   ► the iPhone 14 Plus, is painting out the way that Apple and we thought it would. I

00:51:08 ◼   ► think it's weird they held on to an older system on a chip. You know Apple

00:51:15 ◼   ► will say you know the the pros are the most popular ones right and they don't

00:51:18 ◼   ► release specifics anymore but I'd imagine the average selling prices it's

00:51:23 ◼   ► pretty high on the iPhone but it feels like they sort of kneecapped the

00:51:29 ◼   ► traditional iPhone line and I don't like that I hope that they next time around

00:51:34 ◼   ► which my gosh is only in like what like six months seven months that we will see

00:51:39 ◼   ► a more balanced iPhone line that yeah the pros are always gonna have better

00:51:46 ◼   ► stuff but I feel like the system on a chip and the size stuff like that just

00:51:51 ◼   ► it was kind of a swing and a miss this year. That's interesting so when you do

00:51:55 ◼   ► your rankings you're thinking about the whole the whole thing. Yeah because he

00:52:02 ◼   ► doesn't call out like iOS and iPad OS and Mac OS right so I kind of know I

00:52:06 ◼   ► mean like your your your rate in the whole iPhone lineup not just your

00:52:10 ◼   ► experiences with the iPhone yeah yeah I think that's fair interesting I always

00:52:16 ◼   ► when I do mine I'm ranking my personal experiences with the products that I'm

00:52:21 ◼   ► using hmm so like I wouldn't even think about the iPhone plus be a drink I mean

00:52:28 ◼   ► I'll probably throw in stuff like well like how you know like you mention it I

00:52:33 ◼   ► guess we can mention it now the iPad the lineup being a mess I think I would

00:52:38 ◼   ► think of that too but because that's I think of how that affects me as well like

00:52:43 ◼   ► I take it more as like a personal thing if it's like aside from the I love the

00:52:48 ◼   ► iPad mini but everything else just doesn't make any sense to me right hmm

00:52:52 ◼   ► interesting yeah well Jason leaves it open to interpretation right I think

00:52:56 ◼   ► that's one of the really smart things about the design of the report card is

00:53:00 ◼   ► he asked all of us basically pretty simple questions like what would you

00:53:05 ◼   ► rate the iPhone out of five and give me your thoughts about it and so

00:53:09 ◼   ► people come from different directions that's one reason I love reading it

00:53:13 ◼   ► every year like every single year comes out like that afternoon I pull my iPad

00:53:16 ◼   ► out and read it because it's it's interesting the way different people

00:53:19 ◼   ► approach it. Also like we still have lightning come on come on USB C you can

00:53:26 ◼   ► do it. The always on display like calling that out like I think that is that a

00:53:32 ◼   ► controversial thing to say that you like? I don't know, like, I mean, I also feel like you,

00:53:37 ◼   ► you did the thing, right? You turned it off. I turned off the wallpaper. So like,

00:53:43 ◼   ► my phone right now is on the MagSafe charger. I see the time and some widgets. I see my timer-y

00:53:50 ◼   ► live activity going and Carrot Weather sent me notification because it's pouring down rain.

00:53:54 ◼   ► I don't see the picture of my wife, but if I pick it up or tap it or, you know, it comes to life,

00:54:01 ◼   ► then her photo fades in. That feels like a good balance to me.

00:54:04 ◼   ► Yeah, I have the photos. I like the photos.

00:54:08 ◼   ► Again, options are good and not always something that Apple's great at offering.

00:54:13 ◼   ► So I mentioned that you said about the iPad lineup being weird and you gave the iPad a 3 out of 5?

00:54:19 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:54:20 ◼   ► Well, where's the bright spots then to get it a 3 out of 5?

00:54:24 ◼   ► I think the iPad is like a, from like a philosophical standpoint is in an interesting place, right?

00:54:32 ◼   ► They've made it more powerful. The hardware is really good. Stage manager

00:54:36 ◼   ► I think is a miss and not really delivering the promises Apple made about it.

00:54:41 ◼   ► But I feel like

00:54:44 ◼   ► out in the real world

00:54:46 ◼   ► people are pretty happy with iPads and people keep their iPads for a long time and

00:54:51 ◼   ► And it seems to be pretty well liked.

00:54:54 ◼   ► And most iPad users, kind of like the other stuff we've talked about, don't really care

00:54:59 ◼   ► or about the consternation over stage manager, because they probably don't have an iPad that

00:55:04 ◼   ► can even run it yet.

00:55:06 ◼   ► Right.

00:55:07 ◼   ► Not to open that argument again, not sidestepping that argument for today.

00:55:11 ◼   ► But I feel like if we're looking at the iPad in 2022, individually, they're all pretty

00:55:18 ◼   ► good products. But as a collective, I don't know what's going on. You have the 10th Gen

00:55:25 ◼   ► iPad, which is probably the best iPad for the money, but has very weird product decisions

00:55:33 ◼   ► within that iPad like the pencil and the camera being on the landscape side has a very different

00:55:38 ◼   ► keyboard and trackpad setup than the others. And then you have the M2 iPad Pro and the

00:55:47 ◼   ► one iPad Air and all three of those are basically the same size 11 ish inches in size. It reminds

00:55:56 ◼   ► me of the problem the Mac had, you know, go back to 2015 2016. And we talked about it

00:56:03 ◼   ► a lot then of like, if you have $1,200 to spend on a Mac laptop, what do you buy? You

00:56:08 ◼   ► have the old, you know, pre retina MacBook Air, you have the one port MacBook, and you

00:56:14 ◼   ► of the 13-inch MacBook Pro.

00:56:15 ◼   ► As like, I don't know, like the differences between those

00:56:19 ◼   ► are in some ways important,

00:56:20 ◼   ► in other ways not important at all.

00:56:22 ◼   ► And the iPad feels like it's swimming in those same waters.

00:56:27 ◼   ► Like there may be something really specific

00:56:29 ◼   ► that draws you to the 11-inch iPad Pro.

00:56:31 ◼   ► Maybe it's the faster refresh rate.

00:56:34 ◼   ► Maybe something really pulls you to the 10th generation iPad,

00:56:38 ◼   ► probably the price.

00:56:39 ◼   ► But collectively looking at it from a strategy perspective,

00:56:44 ◼   ► it just feels like something didn't land

00:56:48 ◼   ► the way Apple wanted it to.

00:56:49 ◼   ► But when you walk into an Apple store, it's confusing.

00:56:53 ◼   ► And I think that that hurts its score.

00:56:55 ◼   ► I mean, if you had to buy a new iPad today,

00:56:57 ◼   ► I know you and I are both iPad mini fans,

00:56:59 ◼   ► but like if you had to buy a new full size iPad today,

00:57:01 ◼   ► what would you buy and why?

00:57:03 ◼   ► - All right, so this is a very interesting question.

00:57:05 ◼   ► - Exactly, it should be an easy question, but it's not.

00:57:09 ◼   ► I mean I guess the only other iPad that I use is probably the one that I will buy which is the iPad Air.

00:57:15 ◼   ► Like, for me, I don't need the iPad Pro, what the iPad Pro does, I don't need it particularly.

00:57:25 ◼   ► Which is what, it's faster at things.

00:57:28 ◼   ► Faster, it has like Pencil Hover, the big one has the Mini LED display which is nice but it's too big.

00:57:36 ◼   ► Yeah, it's huge.

00:57:37 ◼   ► And it has what like more capabilities via like Thunderbolt or whatever, you know, like yeah

00:57:44 ◼   ► Yeah, and need I don't need any of that. Yeah. No one's using that

00:57:48 ◼   ► No, so I can so that they would that would go out for me

00:57:53 ◼   ► You know, I would maybe get the iPad I would get the smaller iPad Pro if it had the screen technology, right?

00:58:00 ◼   ► Because then I would get a really good screen in the form factor that I like

00:58:06 ◼   ► But it doesn't have that so it feels kind of pointless so I would just I would go iPad air

00:58:11 ◼   ► because I

00:58:14 ◼   ► Like the design I think it's nice. I mean it's not super different from the original iPad

00:58:19 ◼   ► It's a little bit bigger

00:58:22 ◼   ► Because I use the iPad I use the iPad at home now

00:58:26 ◼   ► We watch like video and stuff on it if we're cooking or whatever nice eating dinner, you know where it was here at the studio

00:58:31 ◼   ► I've taken it home and reused it for that now and it's it's doing a great job at that stuff

00:58:36 ◼   ► But that's probably the one I would go for I would go for the iPad air. What would you do?

00:58:40 ◼   ► Probably probably the the air because I like that keyboard and trackpad now

00:58:46 ◼   ► I don't have experience with the 10th gen its keyboard case

00:58:49 ◼   ► You know, I'm not sure my thighs are long enough for the the kickstand life is anybody's really it's hard to say

00:58:56 ◼   ► but it should be clearer I think and

00:59:00 ◼   ► I'm willing to lay most of that the feet of like they haven't been able to do what they wanted to do because you know

00:59:07 ◼   ► state of the world

00:59:08 ◼   ► but

00:59:09 ◼   ► I feel like at some point they need to bring some some clarity to the iPad line in terms of hardware

00:59:16 ◼   ► while also continuing to improve iPad OS and like Federico's talked a lot about this but like

00:59:22 ◼   ► Apple just needs to make a decision about what iPad OS is and

00:59:27 ◼   ► They haven't done it like they keep punting it down the road of like oh, it's Mac like in these ways

00:59:31 ◼   ► but it's iPhone like in these other ways and I

00:59:33 ◼   ► Don't think it's really

00:59:36 ◼   ► Clear like where they view the iPad

00:59:40 ◼   ► now let alone ten years in the future and so

00:59:44 ◼   ► It is you know that if I shake the magic eight ball

00:59:47 ◼   ► Asking about the future of the iPad like it comes back

00:59:50 ◼   ► The answer is hazy and I think that hurts it as a as an overall platform

00:59:55 ◼   ► form. Last, no not last, Watch and Wearables? You went four out of five on

01:00:02 ◼   ► both of those. Yeah. You seem like obviously a big fan of the Apple Watch

01:00:07 ◼   ► Ultra. Right. Wearing it right now. Still wearing it, still loving it and I guess

01:00:11 ◼   ► that would put it up for you. Yeah. And I'd forgotten but obviously you are using

01:00:16 ◼   ► and a fan of the AirPods Pro too. Yeah. Where you hadn't been able to use AirPods Pro

01:00:21 ◼   ► before. Yeah the first ones didn't really work for me, the second ones do

01:00:24 ◼   ► they're still not as good of a fit as the AirPods 2,

01:00:29 ◼   ► I feel like, like yesterday I went for a long walk

01:00:32 ◼   ► after lunch and like, you know,

01:00:34 ◼   ► every once in a while I got to reach up

01:00:35 ◼   ► and like kind of reseat it,

01:00:36 ◼   ► but they're not falling out of my ear,

01:00:37 ◼   ► so I'm willing to put up with it

01:00:40 ◼   ► because the sound quality is so good.

01:00:42 ◼   ► And I've been really just impressed with them as a product.

01:00:47 ◼   ► Honestly, the biggest thing coming from the AirPods 2

01:00:50 ◼   ► is that when I open the case, my phone sees it immediately.

01:00:54 ◼   ► The old ones is like, is it gonna connect?

01:00:55 ◼   ► And overcast will connect for a second

01:00:57 ◼   ► and then drop it or YouTube or whatever

01:00:59 ◼   ► I was trying to listen to.

01:01:01 ◼   ► So all the wireless stuff is a lot better

01:01:03 ◼   ► in the newer ones.

01:01:04 ◼   ► And I think it's no doubt in anyone's mind

01:01:07 ◼   ► that the AirPod family has been extremely successful.

01:01:11 ◼   ► I really feel like as the world has kind of opened back up

01:01:16 ◼   ► after the last couple of years,

01:01:17 ◼   ► like if I could just see AirPods everywhere.

01:01:20 ◼   ► The Apple Watch is there too.

01:01:22 ◼   ► I feel like I feel like the Apple Watch is pretty ubiquitous,

01:01:26 ◼   ► at least amongst, you know, people who carry iPhones,

01:01:30 ◼   ► like obviously, but the AirPods have been really successful

01:01:35 ◼   ► and I've really enjoyed both my new watch

01:01:38 ◼   ► and my new AirPods in the months since I've had them.

01:01:40 ◼   ► I would like to see Apple spend some time on watchOS.

01:01:46 ◼   ► I don't have any specific advice there,

01:01:50 ◼   ► but watchOS on the Apple Watch Ultra

01:01:55 ◼   ► feels a bit silly at times

01:01:58 ◼   ► because it's the same UI just scaled up.

01:02:01 ◼   ► And my wife has, what's the small size now?

01:02:04 ◼   ► Is it 42, 40?

01:02:06 ◼   ► Whatever the smaller of the series eight is.

01:02:10 ◼   ► Mary's wearing one of those.

01:02:11 ◼   ► - I always think of it as 38 in my brain,

01:02:13 ◼   ► but that's so wrong now.

01:02:14 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:02:16 ◼   ► But if she wants me to do something on her watch

01:02:19 ◼   ► or something or change a setting and I use it,

01:02:22 ◼   ► it's like, oh, this is just like mine,

01:02:24 ◼   ► just a smaller window into it.

01:02:26 ◼   ► - It's 41.

01:02:28 ◼   ► - 41, thank you.

01:02:30 ◼   ► And so I would like to see them do a better job at that.

01:02:33 ◼   ► But honestly, like Mac OS is the same way, iOS,

01:02:35 ◼   ► like Apple doesn't really seem to change its UIs

01:02:40 ◼   ► based on screen size.

01:02:42 ◼   ► They did it for a minute with the first plus size phones.

01:02:46 ◼   ► Remember that like, oh, you can see faces and messages

01:02:49 ◼   ► and you can turn it.

01:02:50 ◼   ► - And landscape?

01:02:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, on the home screen.

01:02:52 ◼   ► Do you remember that?

01:02:53 ◼   ► - Landscape home screen?

01:02:54 ◼   ► - Weird times.

01:02:55 ◼   ► - I don't remember that.

01:02:56 ◼   ► I remember apps being in landscape.

01:02:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, for a minute.

01:03:00 ◼   ► - It's a thing you can only do.

01:03:01 ◼   ► - The lock screen would turn as well.

01:03:03 ◼   ► I think that's gone too, but it's fine.

01:03:06 ◼   ► The other Apple watches are like, they're fine.

01:03:09 ◼   ► The Apple Watch is at a point now

01:03:11 ◼   ► where you don't have to upgrade year over year.

01:03:14 ◼   ► I think that was a much bigger deal early on.

01:03:15 ◼   ► But again, that's just how these things go.

01:03:18 ◼   ► the iPhone's the same way, right? The average lifespan of an iPhone and

01:03:21 ◼   ► especially an iPad has gotten longer over time as these devices have gotten

01:03:25 ◼   ► better. So yeah, the 8 is kind of a boring update over the 7, but if you have a 4 or

01:03:30 ◼   ► 5, the Series 8 is awesome. It adds all this stuff you don't have. And so I think

01:03:36 ◼   ► I think it's time that we change our thinking about the Apple Watch. This

01:03:41 ◼   ► is a buy it every three to four year type product for most consumers, and I

01:03:47 ◼   ► I think that's totally fine.

01:03:49 ◼   ► - You know, you're saying about the small watch

01:03:51 ◼   ► being like a small window and the same thing.

01:03:54 ◼   ► It's like funny to me that they didn't really do anything

01:03:57 ◼   ► to take advantage of the huge screen size

01:03:59 ◼   ► that you have on yours, right?

01:04:00 ◼   ► Like it's just bigger.

01:04:02 ◼   ► Like it is really weird that they added some functionality,

01:04:06 ◼   ► but there wasn't really any work put into

01:04:08 ◼   ► the overall operating system to make it feel like

01:04:10 ◼   ► it was a home on the larger display, as you're saying.

01:04:14 ◼   ► Like they used to, they don't really do that anymore.

01:04:17 ◼   ► but they could and they should

01:04:19 ◼   ► because there are experiences that could be unlocked.

01:04:21 ◼   ► I guess you do get a slightly roomier keyboard, you know,

01:04:25 ◼   ► it's nice for you, I suppose.

01:04:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, the keyboard is probably the best,

01:04:31 ◼   ► the best use of the bigger size.

01:04:33 ◼   ► It's actually usable on the Ultra.

01:04:35 ◼   ► The only thing I would just wrap up in this section

01:04:39 ◼   ► is the question over the future of the AirPods Max.

01:04:43 ◼   ► I didn't write about this

01:04:44 ◼   ► 'cause honestly I didn't think about it when doing it,

01:04:46 ◼   ► I thought about it after the fact. There's no wireless Apple audio product that supports

01:04:52 ◼   ► their higher end codec. And we thought that AirPods Max maybe it and it go get lossless

01:04:58 ◼   ► with it. Maybe that's still coming. There. There are pods Max also has Apple's one of their worst

01:05:05 ◼   ► cases ever designed. I compared it to the first generation iPad case. Remember that thing had like

01:05:11 ◼   ► sharp edges it was terrible. Oh my god yeah yeah yeah yeah so I hope that that

01:05:18 ◼   ► product even though I don't use it I don't that work for me. Was that the one

01:05:22 ◼   ► where you had to remove it from the case like it or it was really hard to get off?

01:05:29 ◼   ► It was very hard to take it out of the case I'm gonna try to find a I don't know if

01:05:35 ◼   ► I believe I'll find it. It starts first-generation iPad case and that's a lot of

01:05:39 ◼   ► things but it was not good and that you they remediate it with the smart cover

01:05:47 ◼   ► which is basically what we still have today because that was a genius idea man

01:05:51 ◼   ► and that's so good when that came out you know I was reminded of the other day

01:05:54 ◼   ► do you remember the Evernote peak feature oh yeah it was like for studying

01:06:00 ◼   ► or something you could have it as like flashcards and you would you'd have the

01:06:05 ◼   ► app open and you'd close the smart cover and you'd pull down the top part and you

01:06:09 ◼   ► could see the question and you pull it apart and you get the answer.

01:06:13 ◼   ► Yeah. Man that was clever. That was when Evernote were like doing cool stuff

01:06:18 ◼   ► before they did all the like, like all the business card app and their

01:06:24 ◼   ► cooking app and all that kind of stuff. Do you think Evernote will add chat GPT?

01:06:30 ◼   ► I expect they probably have already tried to do some. Yeah. Well they did. I remember

01:06:36 ◼   ► remember people got mad, including me, where at the bottom of your note, it would include

01:06:41 ◼   ► links to like media sources, based on the contents of your notes, like if your note

01:06:46 ◼   ► was about car repair, like so I have a note of like maintenance on my truck, right? So

01:06:50 ◼   ► like, if I change the oil, I go in there and put the mileage in and the day and all that

01:06:54 ◼   ► sort of stuff. If there were an Evernote, then at the bottom would be like a New York

01:06:56 ◼   ► Times article about cart maintenance. It's like, that's not cool. But you know, now we

01:07:01 ◼   ► just accept it because AI is here to stay, potentially.

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01:08:55 ◼   ► connected and relay FM. You gave the Apple TV a 3 out of 5. Mm-hmm. How dare

01:09:02 ◼   ► you? I'm sorry Mr. TV OS. Why? What's wrong with it? I don't understand. The box is

01:09:10 ◼   ► expensive and overkill. There's also a bug going on right now that like your

01:09:15 ◼   ► Apple TV remote would just stop talking to your Apple TV sometimes, which I have

01:09:19 ◼   ► that problem and you can like reboot everything and it comes back to life.

01:09:22 ◼   ► Everyone needs private space sometimes you know even TV remotes. You should take a

01:09:26 ◼   ► little break from people. Yeah you're stuck using your... The TV remote is an introvert

01:09:30 ◼   ► all right what do you want? I know I'm sorry I'm an introvert too I'm sorry.

01:09:34 ◼   ► TV OS itself just feels really stagnant it just it's much more about the content

01:09:42 ◼   ► than the OS but Apple can't land the content stuff either right because like

01:09:46 ◼   ► Netflix and others don't play ball with Apple's user interface and the result of

01:09:52 ◼   ► that is sort of a disjointed experience on tvOS where some content some content

01:10:00 ◼   ► providers feel like they have special treatment because they're in the TV app

01:10:03 ◼   ► and others are siloed off into their own you know applications and it's not just

01:10:10 ◼   ► Netflix I think that's the biggest example but there's others that that

01:10:13 ◼   ► also don't play with the system. Yeah it's really just Netflix. I know what you mean

01:10:18 ◼   ► but like... That's the one that matters. It's the one that matters. Yeah it's the

01:10:22 ◼   ► it's the big one. And so I don't know how Apple solves that. Clearly they haven't

01:10:27 ◼   ► been able to but I am hopeful they still can. I think it would improve the

01:10:33 ◼   ► experience if all content kind of worked the same way. Now I did not include

01:10:40 ◼   ► Apple TV plus in this I included in services so we can talk about that in a minute I guess

01:10:44 ◼   ► but from a hardware software perspective the Apple TV just still feels like too little for

01:10:51 ◼   ► too much money and look I've got one I've got a 4k one I have the new Siri remote and like it is TV

01:10:57 ◼   ► in our house like that's how we watch anything is through Apple the Apple TV and while I would

01:11:03 ◼   ► would replace it if it died, I would be cranky about how much it cost. So let's

01:11:09 ◼   ► talk about services. Yes. Tell me about your TV Plus experience. I am so

01:11:16 ◼   ► both surprised but also really pleased at honestly how good TV Plus is. There's

01:11:21 ◼   ► there's a lot of good content there. They've hired good people and I know

01:11:24 ◼   ► they're not making all the content like very famously Ted Lasso isn't an Apple

01:11:29 ◼   ► TV production, right?

01:11:30 ◼   ► Is it WB? Who does Ted Lasso?

01:11:33 ◼   ► Yeah, Ted Lasso is a very weird duck.

01:11:38 ◼   ► It's like, everyone's got a hand on this one.

01:11:41 ◼   ► It's a very strange

01:11:42 ◼   ► relationship.

01:11:45 ◼   ► But let's just say for the for the sake of it, yes, it's Warner Brothers.

01:11:48 ◼   ► Yeah, it's not an Apple original

01:11:52 ◼   ► original like some of the others are.

01:11:55 ◼   ► And there's some duds, right?

01:11:56 ◼   ► There's some stuff that I think

01:11:58 ◼   ► I definitely haven't sampled it all but there's definitely some stuff that's better than others

01:12:01 ◼   ► But overall if if you asked three years ago Steven like do you think apples gonna be good at making their own TV content?

01:12:08 ◼   ► I'd be like, I don't know about that

01:12:10 ◼   ► But they've done a good job and they've they've clearly spent the money with the right people to make that make that possible

01:12:17 ◼   ► I think I might be right in saying this no TV shows that they are currently airing are actually

01:12:25 ◼   ► quote-unquote Apple original content.

01:12:28 ◼   ► - Okay.

01:12:29 ◼   ► - Like that is a thing that they are working on, right?

01:12:31 ◼   ► That they set up like Apple Studios

01:12:33 ◼   ► and they will be producing their own,

01:12:36 ◼   ► but like it's all got some production company tied into it.

01:12:40 ◼   ► That's not them.

01:12:41 ◼   ► So they, you know, and that will always be a mix of that,

01:12:44 ◼   ► but they will also want to be able to like

01:12:46 ◼   ► completely home grow a thing.

01:12:48 ◼   ► So they have ultimate control over it

01:12:50 ◼   ► rather than just green lighting something.

01:12:53 ◼   ► - Okay.

01:12:54 ◼   ► In terms of the other services, the other highlight for 2022,

01:12:58 ◼   ► I think, was iCloud Photo for families, right?

01:13:02 ◼   ► The shared photo library stuff.

01:13:04 ◼   ► Mary and I are all in on that.

01:13:06 ◼   ► There's definitely some details that I don't like

01:13:08 ◼   ► about how it works, mostly the lack of albums.

01:13:12 ◼   ► I love my wife.

01:13:13 ◼   ► She won't hear this, but I love her very much.

01:13:16 ◼   ► She just has it on all the time.

01:13:19 ◼   ► So I've got open photos, and it'll be a bunch of photos

01:13:22 ◼   ► that she's taken like,

01:13:23 ◼   ► that shouldn't be in the family photo library, right?

01:13:25 ◼   ► They're like stuff for school or, you know,

01:13:28 ◼   ► 'cause she's a teacher, like stuff that--

01:13:29 ◼   ► - And I forget though too, right?

01:13:31 ◼   ► I am guilty of this.

01:13:34 ◼   ► - Oh, I do too.

01:13:34 ◼   ► - I've been taking product photography recently

01:13:36 ◼   ► and saying, "Oh, you know, does not need all of this."

01:13:38 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:13:39 ◼   ► You know how many photos I have of iPods?

01:13:41 ◼   ► Thousands.

01:13:42 ◼   ► - That's true.

01:13:43 ◼   ► - And there's a, I think it's a good limitation,

01:13:46 ◼   ► but I would like to have it lifted

01:13:48 ◼   ► where I can't force something back

01:13:51 ◼   ► into her personal library, only she can.

01:13:53 ◼   ► So like once a week I just like find her iPad

01:13:55 ◼   ► around the house and like select a bunch of photos

01:13:57 ◼   ► and move them back to her personal library.

01:13:59 ◼   ► - So, 'cause I know there's a thing,

01:14:01 ◼   ► but I can only move mine, huh?

01:14:03 ◼   ► I can only remove my photos from the shared library.

01:14:05 ◼   ► I can't remove, oh, interesting.

01:14:07 ◼   ► - You can delete them, but you can't push them back

01:14:09 ◼   ► into her personal library.

01:14:11 ◼   ► - Right, interesting.

01:14:12 ◼   ► - The big miss for me in the services

01:14:14 ◼   ► continues to be Apple News.

01:14:16 ◼   ► I pay for Apple One because for the iCloud storage we need

01:14:20 ◼   ► and paying for like TV and music,

01:14:22 ◼   ► Apple One is the same cost, so I just pay for Apple One.

01:14:25 ◼   ► About every three months I'd look at that and like,

01:14:26 ◼   ► "Is that right?"

01:14:27 ◼   ► And sure enough it is.

01:14:28 ◼   ► I don't really use Apple News very much

01:14:30 ◼   ► unless someone sends me an Apple News link.

01:14:31 ◼   ► I got people in my life who are big Apple News users,

01:14:34 ◼   ► so I do get sent links there pretty often.

01:14:37 ◼   ► But they have the worst ads on the web.

01:14:40 ◼   ► It's not as bad as like,

01:14:42 ◼   ► you see sometimes at the bottom of like local news stories

01:14:45 ◼   ► And it's like, I ate blueberries for a year

01:14:46 ◼   ► and lost a hundred pounds, right?

01:14:48 ◼   ► It's not that sort of garbagey ads,

01:14:50 ◼   ► but I pay for Apple One.

01:14:52 ◼   ► Like it should be either ad free

01:14:55 ◼   ► or it should be ads that don't interrupt the stories

01:14:59 ◼   ► the way they do and just higher quality stuff.

01:15:01 ◼   ► And that's frustrating to me.

01:15:03 ◼   ► I know there are people out there

01:15:04 ◼   ► who really do love Apple News,

01:15:07 ◼   ► but out of everything they offer,

01:15:09 ◼   ► it feels like the weakest spot.

01:15:11 ◼   ► And it feels like it's been the weak spot for a long time.

01:15:13 ◼   ► Where are these ads coming from though?

01:15:15 ◼   ► Who's ads are they?

01:15:17 ◼   ► - I don't know.

01:15:18 ◼   ► - 'Cause I reckon these are the publishers ads,

01:15:20 ◼   ► but your ad blocker doesn't work.

01:15:22 ◼   ► So your, this isn't something that you're used to seeing,

01:15:25 ◼   ► but this is just what the web looks like, Steven.

01:15:27 ◼   ► Yes, it is.

01:15:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, but like even in like the news plus section, right?

01:15:32 ◼   ► Where you can go in and you can get magazines and stuff.

01:15:35 ◼   ► Like it's just, none of it feels as solid

01:15:38 ◼   ► as it should, I think.

01:15:39 ◼   ► - No, I mean, I don't understand

01:15:40 ◼   ► why it needs to exist personally.

01:15:42 ◼   ► Like I don't use it.

01:15:44 ◼   ► I think I uninstall it from one of the devices

01:15:46 ◼   ► 'cause I just don't want it.

01:15:47 ◼   ► And I never want to be accidentally taken there

01:15:50 ◼   ► when I go to a link.

01:15:51 ◼   ► I just want it to open in the web somewhere.

01:15:53 ◼   ► - But the rest of the services seem pretty solid.

01:15:55 ◼   ► And so I felt like a four out of five

01:15:58 ◼   ► was pretty reasonable.

01:16:01 ◼   ► - Home, you gave it a three out of five.

01:16:03 ◼   ► - Part of this is the weirdness

01:16:05 ◼   ► over the architecture update, which I ran

01:16:08 ◼   ► because I was like, oh, new home architecture, let's do it.

01:16:11 ◼   ► I've had no problems, like things still work.

01:16:13 ◼   ► So I don't know what the issues were there.

01:16:15 ◼   ► But I feel like all in all,

01:16:18 ◼   ► it's been, HomeKit continues to be sort of

01:16:21 ◼   ► in a wait and see mode.

01:16:23 ◼   ► Now I use it exclusively,

01:16:25 ◼   ► like all my smart home stuff is in HomeKit.

01:16:28 ◼   ► Matter is slowly rolling out.

01:16:31 ◼   ► I feel like every week or two,

01:16:32 ◼   ► there's an article out there

01:16:34 ◼   ► that some company moving to matter.

01:16:36 ◼   ► But we don't really,

01:16:38 ◼   ► that's a promise not yet fulfilled, is what I would say.

01:16:40 ◼   ► We don't really know what that's gonna be like. Yeah, and

01:16:42 ◼   ► The home app is better

01:16:45 ◼   ► But not as useful as it could be it just feels like there's a lot of stuff in home kit or the home app

01:16:50 ◼   ► That you just don't really have

01:16:52 ◼   ► Insight into what's actually happening. Like if something doesn't do what you expect

01:16:57 ◼   ► Remedying that is really difficult to understand like maybe you just reboot it or like our friend dancey for the verge

01:17:06 ◼   ► Had a post this morning on Mastodon about

01:17:09 ◼   ► Like his home kit stuff works as long as the Apple TV's on wireless and not plugged into Ethernet is like

01:17:14 ◼   ► Why why is that the case and like the leaps and the things he had to go through to figure that out?

01:17:21 ◼   ► It just is just silly and so I hope that as smart home stuff becomes

01:17:25 ◼   ► more and more the norm that Apple can

01:17:31 ◼   ► Continue to flesh out the home app and home kit to be more useful in situations where things don't work as expected

01:17:37 ◼   ► I

01:17:39 ◼   ► Mean would you have any thoughts on?

01:17:43 ◼   ► like or did

01:17:45 ◼   ► Hardware or home hardware like factor into the score or did you not?

01:17:50 ◼   ► bother with that not really because Apple doesn't make any of their own like

01:17:56 ◼   ► You can get almost anything that works with homekit now, which is fantastic. I mean the last year

01:18:02 ◼   ► I added a garage door opener you help me with it. Thank you and a gate opener and like there's more and more stuff

01:18:07 ◼   ► in there, but I really was kind of looking at like what Apple itself has done over the last year.

01:18:12 ◼   ► Okay, that's fair enough.

01:18:15 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:18:15 ◼   ► You're not grading it on things that they didn't do necessarily.

01:18:18 ◼   ► Right, like could they do more to make it easier for other types of manufacturers to bring stuff to home?

01:18:23 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm sure they could.

01:18:24 ◼   ► Five out of five on hardware reliability.

01:18:25 ◼   ► I mean look, there's no butterfly keyboard. Apple's really good with aluminum and glass.

01:18:30 ◼   ► Like you can get parts for the self-service repair program. Like I got no complaints. I mean,

01:18:37 ◼   ► When's the last time I had a hardware issue with an Apple product that wasn't caused on me dropping it?

01:18:41 ◼   ► I don't even know. It's been a long time.

01:18:43 ◼   ► And software?

01:18:44 ◼   ► Not that I drop things. That's unusual for me.

01:18:47 ◼   ► The hardware is reliable as long as you can keep it in your hands.

01:18:50 ◼   ► That's right, yeah.

01:18:51 ◼   ► Software quality, 3 out of 5.

01:18:55 ◼   ► This is sort of a death by a thousand cuts for me.

01:18:59 ◼   ► I opened my comments to Jason and was like, I haven't had a kernel panic or like an Apple application crash on a regular basis in a long time.

01:19:06 ◼   ► Freeform is a very 1.0, you know, we've talked about that other places. For me,

01:19:11 ◼   ► it's really the score of this is in the details, like the example I quoted was

01:19:17 ◼   ► the mismatch of features found in Mac and iOS versions of reminders. Or when

01:19:23 ◼   ► you open your Mac, you know, your notebook after a weekend and messages still

01:19:28 ◼   ► struggles to catch up with iCloud, right? It's like, they said they fixed that, but

01:19:33 ◼   ► but they still fall out of sync.

01:19:35 ◼   ► The one I'm currently seeing,

01:19:36 ◼   ► so the group text that we have with Federico

01:19:39 ◼   ► and One True John,

01:19:40 ◼   ► we change the name of it every once in a while.

01:19:42 ◼   ► And my iPhone in the share sheet refuses to see

01:19:45 ◼   ► the new name that we have it set to.

01:19:47 ◼   ► It sees the old one.

01:19:48 ◼   ► I don't know why, I can't seem to fix it.

01:19:51 ◼   ► It just seems stuck.

01:19:52 ◼   ► It's those little things that none of them are showstoppers.

01:19:57 ◼   ► None of them are all that bad in and of themselves.

01:20:01 ◼   ► but as Apple has spread its software organization

01:20:04 ◼   ► to be bigger and to move faster,

01:20:06 ◼   ► I feel like a lot of the details get missed

01:20:10 ◼   ► or get just the bare minimum of attention,

01:20:12 ◼   ► and that's a bit frustrating.

01:20:14 ◼   ► - You also referenced system settings here,

01:20:18 ◼   ► which you did not reference in the Mac part.

01:20:21 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:20:22 ◼   ► - When it came to software.

01:20:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I really put it here

01:20:26 ◼   ► because I used it as an example of SwiftUI

01:20:31 ◼   ► not really being where it needs to be yet.

01:20:34 ◼   ► And Apple is pushing on that

01:20:36 ◼   ► and they want developers to use it.

01:20:38 ◼   ► And a lot of our developer friends

01:20:39 ◼   ► are using a lot of it now.

01:20:40 ◼   ► But the overall messiness, especially on the Mac,

01:20:43 ◼   ► of you have Cocoa apps, you have Catalyst apps,

01:20:46 ◼   ► you have SwiftUI apps, they look and run differently

01:20:50 ◼   ► and do different things.

01:20:52 ◼   ► I just don't, it's one of the only transitions

01:20:56 ◼   ► I feel like Apple's ever had

01:20:58 ◼   ► where we don't know what their plan is.

01:21:01 ◼   ► There were some of this in the carbon to cocoa thing back in the day where the carbon was

01:21:05 ◼   ► going to go 64 bit and then it didn't and people freaked out.

01:21:09 ◼   ► But outside of that, like with the Apple Silicon transition, the hardware transitions, we know

01:21:13 ◼   ► where they're going, right?

01:21:15 ◼   ► Okay, we're putting an M one in the MacBook Air, and in two years, we're going to be done.

01:21:20 ◼   ► And with this, it's very open ended.

01:21:23 ◼   ► And at WBC in 22, they did say like the best way to make apps is with Swift and Swift UI,

01:21:29 ◼   ► putting their flag in the ground, this is what you should be doing, but we don't

01:21:34 ◼   ► know how long that's gonna take. And the tools and the UIs move so slowly that if

01:21:41 ◼   ► you have like a big bad bug in SwiftUI, you're lucky if it gets fixed within

01:21:47 ◼   ► the year cycle. Usually it takes the next full version of the OS, and that

01:21:54 ◼   ► messiness and confusion muddies the water when it comes to Mac software and

01:21:59 ◼   ► And Apple really needs to bring some clarification to that.

01:22:02 ◼   ► And so I didn't, that was sort of a bigger thing than just system settings.

01:22:07 ◼   ► So I put it here, but who knows.

01:22:09 ◼   ► Developer relations in a two out of five.

01:22:11 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:22:12 ◼   ► You know, the app store ads issue, the kind of vice grip on the 30%, but it was bumped

01:22:19 ◼   ► up by the being a WWDC.

01:22:22 ◼   ► I think having people back was a big deal for the developer community.

01:22:26 ◼   ► Apple's developer center is like a physical promise to communicate better.

01:22:30 ◼   ► Again, like, we don't know how well that's going.

01:22:33 ◼   ► Because I assume if you go there, you're under NDA is like, I don't know what they're actually

01:22:37 ◼   ► doing in that building.

01:22:38 ◼   ► I know it's a beautiful building.

01:22:39 ◼   ► I enjoyed getting a tour of it.

01:22:41 ◼   ► But at the very least, they're making efforts there.

01:22:42 ◼   ► They've also done the ask Apple q&a's and slack and are they are communicating better

01:22:50 ◼   ► with developers.

01:22:52 ◼   ► If it comes between a better business deal and better communication, I think developers

01:22:56 ◼   ► would be pretty divided on what they would prefer.

01:22:59 ◼   ► There's still obviously the issue I didn't quoted here by now our friend Casey has talked

01:23:01 ◼   ► about it a lot in terms of the documentation and the lack of documentation around a lot

01:23:07 ◼   ► of their API's and frameworks like that's still an ongoing issue.

01:23:11 ◼   ► Apple needs developers on their team, right?

01:23:13 ◼   ► Like the App Store is extremely successful in the iPhone and iPad.

01:23:16 ◼   ► But moving forward, if we're talking about a new platform, you know, entering the scene

01:23:22 ◼   ► this year, like Apple needs to incentivize developers to build for it.

01:23:27 ◼   ► And Apple, especially the App Store ad thing, burned so much goodwill with developers over

01:23:34 ◼   ► something so stupid, and ultimately relatively meaningless when it comes to their bottom

01:23:40 ◼   ► line.

01:23:41 ◼   ► It was sort of shocking to me that that it went down the way that it did.

01:23:46 ◼   ► And they can't make those boneheaded decisions when it comes to developers forever.

01:23:50 ◼   ► When it comes to like, hey, you got to move your code base to Swift UI, or we really like

01:23:54 ◼   ► you to write something for our headset or, you know, whatever it is, like they need developers

01:24:00 ◼   ► to be on the same team.

01:24:02 ◼   ► And Apple seems to take them as a rough, large community to take them for granted more than

01:24:07 ◼   ► I think they should.

01:24:08 ◼   ► And that's a bummer.

01:24:09 ◼   ► It is.

01:24:10 ◼   ► You also referenced the social impact as a three out of five.

01:24:16 ◼   ► Yeah, I think the environmental stuff is a big deal and they seem to be doing really

01:24:24 ◼   ► remarkable work there and like using recycled materials and moving to green energy and all

01:24:29 ◼   ► of those things.

01:24:31 ◼   ► I feel like some of the more nitty gritty stuff, especially the back and forth they've

01:24:36 ◼   ► had over return to work plans.

01:24:39 ◼   ► Knowing people at Apple who got caught up in that is terrible.

01:24:43 ◼   ► And Apple changed their minds a bunch of times and different teams do it different ways.

01:24:48 ◼   ► And it seems like a lot of people who work at Apple feel like their voices haven't been

01:24:52 ◼   ► heard when it comes to return to work.

01:24:56 ◼   ► And that's been really hard, I think, for the organization.

01:25:00 ◼   ► Apple's situation in China is more complicated than ever.

01:25:06 ◼   ► Right?

01:25:07 ◼   ► And I'm definitely not an expert on it.

01:25:08 ◼   ► I would say that people like Ben Thompson are, but they seem willing to make concessions

01:25:15 ◼   ► in areas so they can continue to keep their manufacturing moving forward.

01:25:22 ◼   ► And we saw at the very end of the year, we've seen it some in this calendar year as well,

01:25:26 ◼   ► them looking to move some manufacturing out of China.

01:25:30 ◼   ► But the reality is that's going to be the base of it for a long time.

01:25:35 ◼   ► And the rest of the supply chain, right, like you may manufacture the Mac Pro in Texas,

01:25:39 ◼   ► but all of its parts come from factories in China.

01:25:43 ◼   ► If Apple can even unwind that, it would take a long time.

01:25:47 ◼   ► I don't know if they want to unwind it.

01:25:49 ◼   ► I think that's just a very complicated, like, in a way, Apple in China feels like a ticking

01:25:55 ◼   ► time bomb, like something is going to happen.

01:25:57 ◼   ► Tim Cook very deftly managed that under the Trump administration.

01:26:01 ◼   ► But there are bigger issues that need to be addressed.

01:26:04 ◼   ► And again, I'm not an expert there, but it just feels like,

01:26:08 ◼   ► and it seems like from reading smarter people than me

01:26:10 ◼   ► on this, that their position is not the strongest there.

01:26:15 ◼   ► And what they say about certain societal impacts

01:26:22 ◼   ► and privacy and human rights and all that stuff,

01:26:24 ◼   ► that they're willing to maybe look the other way

01:26:27 ◼   ► when it comes to China.

01:26:28 ◼   ► And that is something they need to address.

01:26:31 ◼   ► And I think that at the end of the day,

01:26:33 ◼   ► when Tim Cook steps down, right, whenever he retires,

01:26:36 ◼   ► that all of the growth he brought to Apple,

01:26:39 ◼   ► and honestly, a lot of the good that has come out of Apple

01:26:42 ◼   ► in this social and societal impact stuff,

01:26:45 ◼   ► they've made great strides,

01:26:47 ◼   ► things that never would have happened before Tim Cook.

01:26:49 ◼   ► But I can't help but think that his relationship,

01:26:53 ◼   ► deep relationship with China will be a stain on that.

01:26:57 ◼   ► - If you can't work it out first.

01:26:58 ◼   ► - If you can't work it out first.

01:27:00 ◼   ► - 'Cause it is one of those like weird situations

01:27:02 ◼   ► where Apple would not be where it is without China.

01:27:05 ◼   ► They wouldn't have been able to do it.

01:27:07 ◼   ► So he's benefited from it so far,

01:27:12 ◼   ► but is he gonna do anything about it

01:27:14 ◼   ► to try and balance that better?

01:27:16 ◼   ► Like that's the trillion dollar question for them

01:27:21 ◼   ► going into the next few years.

01:27:23 ◼   ► It's interesting that you put the return to work stuff

01:27:26 ◼   ► in here, I didn't really consider it,

01:27:29 ◼   ► I didn't think about it, but that's a really good,

01:27:31 ◼   ► I think that's a really good place

01:27:33 ◼   ► to put a comment on that here.

01:27:35 ◼   ► That it felt like Apple were not doing

01:27:40 ◼   ► what a lot of other tech companies were.

01:27:43 ◼   ► And even though it seems like a lot of them

01:27:44 ◼   ► have actually rolled those plans back now,

01:27:47 ◼   ► they at least weren't willing to even try it, right?

01:27:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I think a lot of it is the back and forth.

01:27:56 ◼   ► And look, I get it.

01:27:57 ◼   ► I don't envy making those decisions in any company.

01:28:00 ◼   ► If there's anything I've been thankful for,

01:28:01 ◼   ► over the last three years,

01:28:03 ◼   ► it's that Relay was 100% remote,

01:28:05 ◼   ► that we didn't have to deal with these issues, right?

01:28:07 ◼   ► Because we all do our own thing.

01:28:10 ◼   ► We didn't have to have the conversations like,

01:28:11 ◼   ► when do we have our hosts come back to the studio, right?

01:28:13 ◼   ► We don't have any of that stuff.

01:28:15 ◼   ► So I appreciate that it's difficult.

01:28:17 ◼   ► I appreciate that, especially Apple's culture

01:28:20 ◼   ► being what it is.

01:28:22 ◼   ► You know, Craig Foderge said it,

01:28:23 ◼   ► I think with Gruber at WBC,

01:28:25 ◼   ► he said at some point of like, we're better together,

01:28:27 ◼   ► that we work together, we wanna be together.

01:28:31 ◼   ► That is, I can tell you for a fact,

01:28:33 ◼   ► not reflected by everybody who works at Apple.

01:28:36 ◼   ► And the people who don't agree with that

01:28:38 ◼   ► have had a really hard time with it.

01:28:40 ◼   ► And that's tough.

01:28:42 ◼   ► And I think that it undermines

01:28:45 ◼   ► some of the other things they do.

01:28:46 ◼   ► So that's 2022, baby.

01:28:48 ◼   ► - All done.

01:28:49 ◼   ► - All done.

01:28:50 ◼   ► Do it again next year, Jason.

01:28:51 ◼   ► It's a lot of fun to be a part of.

01:28:53 ◼   ► - Maybe then I'll speak for Jason and say,

01:28:56 ◼   ► don't send 2000 words next year.

01:28:57 ◼   ► - Okay.

01:28:58 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:28:59 ◼   ► He caught me on a good day, you know, this came pouring out of me

01:29:02 ◼   ► Maybe I'll write all all high cues next year. I think that would be nice

01:29:09 ◼   ► You know be fun

01:29:11 ◼   ► especially if you did it in a way where it wasn't obvious right that you want you didn't make a thing out of it and

01:29:16 ◼   ► Just see if see how many of them will be printed and how many people would notice

01:29:20 ◼   ► Jason is talking to us in slack. He said I'll just cut them and you have a free blog post

01:29:27 ◼   ► That's true, too. I'll be given my my scores on upgrade looking forward to that and I keep my I keep my list

01:29:34 ◼   ► Yeah, and Federico did too. In fact, he and I published ours at the same time on

01:29:38 ◼   ► Yeah, knowingly I published mine and then I opened reader and the first thing was his like oh whoops

01:29:44 ◼   ► Like we did at the same time, but go read Federico's as well and considering Jason's

01:29:48 ◼   ► Listening right now. I will tell him the thing that I was gonna send him in slack after today

01:29:54 ◼   ► which is Jason think about your scores because I'm going to be asking what your scores would be to do it an upgrade

01:30:00 ◼   ► Well, I think that I think that does it this week if you want to find links to the stuff

01:30:05 ◼   ► We spoke about head on over to relay.fm

01:30:08 ◼   ► connected

01:30:10 ◼   ► 436 there's a submit feedback button there. So if you have feedback or follow up for the show, please submit it there

01:30:16 ◼   ► you can also file a feedback.com or

01:30:19 ◼   ► Long thigh social that's what I should have used on

01:30:23 ◼   ► Macedon dang it

01:30:25 ◼   ► You see but this is what I was saying earlier, right?

01:30:27 ◼   ► Like I didn't want to come up with a fun thing and then like six months later now

01:30:32 ◼   ► I need another fun thing and then just go on forever and ever and ever

01:30:35 ◼   ► Mm-hmm. You can also become a member if you join connected pro you get longer ad-free

01:30:41 ◼   ► versions of the show each and every week you get access to relays member only discord a

01:30:46 ◼   ► couple of members only podcast lots of awesome stuff for relay FM members

01:30:52 ◼   ► So go join connected pro a lot of people really enjoy it. I think you would too

01:30:56 ◼   ► You can find us online Federico is not here, but he's the editor-in-chief of max stories net

01:31:02 ◼   ► He should be back next week. You can find venom, you know, the unless the ISP snake the ISP snake

01:31:09 ◼   ► Got him just possible

01:31:12 ◼   ► It's terrible Federico's fine, he'll be back next week. Well, I mean we don't know

01:31:18 ◼   ► We don't know if he's fine. We'll really never promise tomorrow anyways

01:31:22 ◼   ► Exactly any episode could be the last episode we should yeah, so thanks for listening

01:31:27 ◼   ► We'll be back next week yeah, you can find Myke online he's on the Don at Myke

01:31:36 ◼   ► Come on come on down to the done Myke's also the co-founder of cortex brand you can learn more at cortex merch calm

01:31:46 ◼   ► You can find me on the Don at eWorld social

01:31:49 ◼   ► More importantly I write five fill pixels dotnet and co-host Mac power users here on relay FM every Sunday afternoon

01:31:56 ◼   ► Do you ever think that like let's imagine that the dawn lasts right?

01:32:00 ◼   ► You know the dawn is still done in you know in like 10 years. Yeah, Megadon that play really at that point

01:32:07 ◼   ► Well more people know of know of you as a world then Apple maybe

01:32:12 ◼   ► right like

01:32:14 ◼   ► Real realistically how many people remembered that or they know what that is now that you've done it

01:32:20 ◼   ► And so like a certain point when a you eat world and then what happens?

01:32:25 ◼   ► I don't know where I'm in the ending. I just think our sponsors

01:32:28 ◼   ► They are indeed electric and clean my Mac X links to all those fine companies are in the show notes

01:32:34 ◼   ► And until next week Myke say goodbye. Bye. Bye. Bye y'all