449: Dynamic Submarine


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 449.

00:00:13   Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace and Fitbod. My name is Mike Hurley, and I'm very excited

00:00:19   because I get to welcome back to the show my friend and yours, Mr. Jason Snell. Hi Jason!

00:00:24   Hi Mike! Where's Casey? Isn't Casey doing the show?

00:00:26   - I fired him.

00:00:28   - Okay.

00:00:29   - He's no Jason Snell.

00:00:30   He's a good Casey Lewis, but he's no Jason Snell.

00:00:32   You know what I mean?

00:00:33   - Aw.

00:00:33   - Nobody is.

00:00:34   - Yes, it was extremely weird to see you recording

00:00:37   and posting and new episodes of Upgrade appearing

00:00:41   in my feed.

00:00:42   It was extremely weird.

00:00:43   - I felt a pressure, so I'm happy that you're back.

00:00:46   You know, it's complicated, right?

00:00:49   To do a show that's meant to,

00:00:52   it's really just the two of us.

00:00:53   It's always the two of us.

00:00:54   Always you, right?

00:00:56   up until now. - It is.

00:00:57   Well, I mean, this is what I have to do when I'm,

00:00:59   I feel the same thing, right?

00:01:00   When I get guest hosts for you is,

00:01:03   it's a different dynamic because then,

00:01:05   in that case, not only am I leading the conversation,

00:01:10   which you take the lead here,

00:01:11   but it's that same thing of like, I wanna be a good host.

00:01:14   Like, as you said last week to Casey,

00:01:16   a good like house host type host of like,

00:01:19   clean up all the mess and here's the show document

00:01:23   and I'm gonna make sure I don't mess it up

00:01:24   and all of those things.

00:01:26   it's a totally different dynamic.

00:01:28   - I have a Snell Talk question for you that comes from me

00:01:31   and I would like to know, did you have a nice break?

00:01:34   - Yeah.

00:01:35   Now I let that sit there because Casey was giving me

00:01:40   a hard time about adding tangents to Snell Talk questions

00:01:44   instead of directly answering them last week.

00:01:47   And I just wanted to point out, and it's fresh

00:01:49   'cause I listened to it on the plane.

00:01:50   I just wanna point out, that's what happens

00:01:52   if I don't do tangents to these questions.

00:01:54   I end up saying just like, yep.

00:01:56   - And then we move on and I thank everybody

00:01:57   for sending in their questions and we move into follow-up.

00:02:00   - It's just, it's a yes.

00:02:01   No, that would be a heck of a move

00:02:02   to have a yes or no question open every episode of Upgrade.

00:02:05   Oh, I can't wait to see if it's yes or no.

00:02:07   - Maybe that's the summer of fun.

00:02:08   - Or like a one word answer.

00:02:09   What's your favorite color?

00:02:10   Blue.

00:02:10   - Yeah, summer of fun is just yes or no answers

00:02:14   for the whole season.

00:02:15   - Yeah, so sometimes you gotta weave,

00:02:19   what I'm saying, Casey, is you gotta weave a story

00:02:22   and you gotta try to make it a thing because otherwise,

00:02:26   I mean, and it does occasionally happen

00:02:27   that you put a stone-top question in there

00:02:28   and I'm like, Mike, I have no, I have nothing for this.

00:02:30   I'll just be like, no.

00:02:32   Jason, have you ever done this?

00:02:33   No.

00:02:34   All right, great.

00:02:35   Moving on.

00:02:36   So yes, I had a nice break.

00:02:37   We had a great time.

00:02:38   It has been since your wedding

00:02:39   that we took two weeks away from home.

00:02:42   And it has been since 2004,

00:02:44   since my wife and I have been on a two-week vacation

00:02:46   together without our children, without any children.

00:02:50   We didn't even have, well, I mean,

00:02:51   technically in 2004 we did have one of our children with us,

00:02:53   but he was being carried on the inside.

00:02:56   It's been a long time, so it was great.

00:02:59   - If you would like to send in a Snowtalk question,

00:03:01   preferably with an open, it's like an open question,

00:03:04   not so much--

00:03:05   - Right, or suggestion for what tangents

00:03:07   we could go on during it, that would be great,

00:03:09   like in parentheses or something.

00:03:11   - Go to upgradefeedback.com and you can now select

00:03:14   Snowtalk question from the dropdown,

00:03:16   but you don't have to do that.

00:03:18   You can send in whatever you want

00:03:19   and I can decide where it will go,

00:03:21   but it is nice for me, 'cause on the back end now

00:03:24   I have a way of just selecting each little segment

00:03:27   and getting the things that I need.

00:03:28   Now Jason, I know you weren't here the last couple of weeks,

00:03:31   but I do have a little bit of follow up.

00:03:33   Some of it is directly related to our last episodes,

00:03:36   but actually most of it is related to things

00:03:39   from the pre-vacation time.

00:03:42   - Okay, great.

00:03:43   - So the most important one is a good correction

00:03:46   that comes from Shintan, who's wrote in to remind me,

00:03:49   'cause we were talking about Tim Cook and charity,

00:03:52   and we were talking about,

00:03:54   me and Casey were wondering if Tim Cook had done

00:03:57   the billionaire pledge thing,

00:03:58   where like, I'm gonna give all my money away.

00:04:00   I know that actually has a different name than that,

00:04:02   but I can't remember what it is.

00:04:03   The Bill Gates thing, right?

00:04:04   Like that pledge that you give all your money away

00:04:07   when you die? - Yeah.

00:04:08   - Well, in 2015, Tim Cook pledged

00:04:12   that he would give his wealth to charity

00:04:15   after paying for the schooling of his relatives.

00:04:20   So like, I think it was his nephews.

00:04:22   He was gonna pay for their school,

00:04:24   which was interesting to me that like, just,

00:04:27   he said he will, so this comes from CNN Money.

00:04:31   Cook, who is close to becoming a billionaire, 2015,

00:04:35   says he will pay for his nephew's college education

00:04:39   then donate the rest of his wealth

00:04:40   to philanthropic projects, according to Fortune.

00:04:44   So I remember this, now I remember this, I haven't read it,

00:04:48   and I remember feeling now the same thing I felt then,

00:04:52   which was to be Tim Cook's nephew,

00:04:55   kind of great that he's paying for your college,

00:04:56   but you'd like maybe just like a little more,

00:05:00   you know, like come on Uncle Tim.

00:05:02   - Rich Uncle Tim.

00:05:03   - Can't you at least buy me a house?

00:05:05   You know what I mean?

00:05:06   But hey.

00:05:06   - Well, I mean, maybe he, that's maybe like also buy you

00:05:09   this house to live in, this mansion to live in

00:05:11   while you're going to school and then it's yours.

00:05:13   It's called the giving pledge, by the way,

00:05:14   although the billionaire pledge to give away all your money

00:05:17   is a great name.

00:05:18   I like that too.

00:05:19   - I might start that.

00:05:20   I'm gonna compete with Bill Gates

00:05:23   and set up the billionaire pledge

00:05:25   to give away all of your money.

00:05:27   But so there you go.

00:05:28   That's a good correction.

00:05:30   That's an important thing.

00:05:31   It's just interesting.

00:05:32   All the way back in 2015, I did not remember that at all.

00:05:35   That was nearly 10 years ago now.

00:05:37   - Yeah, I don't think it's surprising given his,

00:05:39   I mean, he is somebody who has very publicly discussed

00:05:42   lots of social issues. Like, I'm not surprised at all that he would, and of course he instated

00:05:47   the all of Apple's charity matching and stuff that Steve Jobs didn't do. And so I'm not

00:05:54   surprised at all that, to be reminded that Tim is already there. He's already going to

00:06:00   give it away. Except for the nephew stuff. Nephews, we're going to take care of you.

00:06:05   It's soccer time.

00:06:06   We're going to take care of you.

00:06:07   Jason Snow.

00:06:08   Soccer time!

00:06:09   In a major way.

00:06:11   in a major league American way.

00:06:12   It's been, for the rest of the world,

00:06:13   it's sort of been soccer time since the fall,

00:06:15   but for a major league soccer way,

00:06:19   it is soccer time.

00:06:22   The MLS season has begun.

00:06:23   I actually watched some of an Apple TV live MLS game

00:06:27   while we were doing our laundry in our hotel room

00:06:31   in Christchurch, New Zealand.

00:06:33   Yeah, mm-hmm.

00:06:34   Yeah, I tuned it in.

00:06:36   - The reason I know it's MLS time is because the TV app

00:06:41   really wants me to sign up.

00:06:44   - It does it though.

00:06:45   - Multiple times, what I'll say is,

00:06:47   I don't mind for Apple to bug me about this stuff once.

00:06:52   But I had it happen to me on at least two occasions

00:06:56   on my iPhone, right?

00:06:57   I open my iPhone, on multiple occasions,

00:07:00   it's like, "Would you like to sign up?"

00:07:01   - American soccer on your iPhone.

00:07:02   - And it's just like, you know, come on.

00:07:04   I don't mind you giving me one of these,

00:07:06   but let's not keep doing it.

00:07:07   But nevertheless, I poked around in the interface

00:07:10   that is inside the TV app,

00:07:12   kind of like hidden inside of the TV app,

00:07:14   'cause it's really, they're treating it like a channel,

00:07:16   right, like one of the Apple TV channels,

00:07:19   like they call them, where you can subscribe

00:07:21   to like Showtime or things like that.

00:07:25   I don't know if that's one of them, but it probably is,

00:07:27   and you can pay for other services

00:07:32   and it be inside of the TV app.

00:07:33   And I thought it looked pretty interesting,

00:07:36   like they've laid everything out pretty well,

00:07:38   there's a good schedule in there,

00:07:39   there's like additional content that you can browse

00:07:42   kind of related to the games and teams.

00:07:45   So yeah, what was your experience

00:07:47   of watching one of these games?

00:07:48   Did it succeed in places where the Friday night baseball

00:07:53   failed like from a graphics perspective,

00:07:55   from a coverage perspective,

00:07:56   or what was your experience like?

00:07:59   - Well, I didn't watch enough, I think,

00:08:00   to make any judgments.

00:08:03   I've definitely, it seems fine.

00:08:04   I've heard from people who are American soccer fans

00:08:07   and MLS fans who said that it seems pretty good.

00:08:10   Given that all the reports suggest

00:08:13   that this all kind of came together last minute,

00:08:15   they had to build an entire production team

00:08:17   and set up like literally everything

00:08:19   for the entire league over the off season.

00:08:22   And so it sounds like it's a work in progress

00:08:24   and there are a whole bunch of parts of it that are missing.

00:08:26   I heard from somebody who said,

00:08:28   "I just want to watch the highlights

00:08:29   and all they'll let me do is watch,

00:08:30   or no, I just want to watch the replay,

00:08:33   a replay of the game

00:08:34   and all they'll let me do is watch highlights

00:08:36   and I want to watch the whole game."

00:08:37   And what I said back to that person is,

00:08:40   when they started doing baseball,

00:08:41   you couldn't pause it or back up.

00:08:44   And they fixed that eventually, right?

00:08:47   So I suspect that a lot of stuff is kind of being bolted

00:08:51   onto the side of this thing as it goes.

00:08:54   But it looked good and sounded good,

00:08:58   although the game that I watched had only

00:09:01   the local radio commentary as well as the main thing.

00:09:05   and I don't know whether there's a separate Spanish language,

00:09:10   like video to watch, where you see the announcers,

00:09:13   maybe that's the case.

00:09:14   I was under the assumption that it was gonna be like,

00:09:16   just in that you choose a game and then you could choose

00:09:18   if you want Spanish or English or whatever,

00:09:19   but maybe it's a little bit different.

00:09:21   Anyway, they look, you know,

00:09:24   I thought it looked pretty good and certainly respectable.

00:09:26   And in watching the coverage of it,

00:09:31   it sounds like everybody involved more or less

00:09:34   is relieved that this is a perfectly well-done, competent broadcast. There didn't seem to

00:09:40   be any big disasters, and it's a good start for this relationship. But I'm sure there's

00:09:46   way more to do that they just haven't gotten to yet.

00:09:51   So speaking of soccer, according to the New York Post, Apple has been rumored to be in

00:09:57   the running to acquire the streaming rights to Pac-12 college football. So actually that's

00:10:02   That's football, not soccer. So ignore what I said, but speaking of football.

00:10:06   This is football, football as a, as a Cal fan. Uh, this is my conference.

00:10:11   Oh, it is.

00:10:12   I bet. Yes, I've been watching this closely. Um, the primary rumor is ESPN and, uh, and

00:10:19   Amazon, but Apple is also in the mix for this. Um, this, this conference is interesting because

00:10:26   Most of the conferences are now sort of in contract.

00:10:30   And in fact, the Big 12 conference renewed their contract.

00:10:35   They were originally gonna go last

00:10:36   and they renewed their contract in advance.

00:10:39   So that leaves the Pac-12 out there.

00:10:40   And there's sort of speculation about

00:10:42   will the Pac-12 be able to match or beat the Big 12

00:10:44   in terms of the rights there.

00:10:47   They're smaller deals than the two huge conferences,

00:10:49   the Big 10 and the SEC.

00:10:51   Apple's involvement here, it's complicated,

00:10:55   But like Pac-12, what's interesting about it is that

00:10:58   they own their own network that's on cable

00:11:00   and also streaming with their own production facility.

00:11:05   And so part of this deal,

00:11:07   and one of the reasons why it might be complex is that

00:11:10   I would imagine that they may actually be selling

00:11:14   the networks and the production facilities

00:11:19   as a part of the deal.

00:11:21   It's not necessarily the case,

00:11:22   but if you were going to be producing

00:11:24   a lot of college sports.

00:11:26   Having your partner say, "Also, we built a machine

00:11:29   "that produces college sports, and would you like to buy it

00:11:31   "or buy half of it or something?"

00:11:35   That's an interesting proposition.

00:11:36   So Ben Thompson wrote about this last week on Stratechery

00:11:41   and a really good post about, and Julia and I talk about it

00:11:45   on downstream a lot in our Sports Corner part

00:11:48   of that podcast, what's going on with regional sports

00:11:50   networks in the US, these local kind of cable networks

00:11:54   that are machines to generate money for local sports teams.

00:11:57   And they're all falling apart because of cord cutting.

00:12:00   And so the money is dropping off.

00:12:02   So there's a lot of weird things happening,

00:12:06   but one of the important things is to be visible

00:12:09   to non diehard fans, right?

00:12:11   That's the reason that the MLS stuff that Apple is doing,

00:12:15   that some of it's available for free,

00:12:16   and some of it's gonna be actually broadcast

00:12:20   on linear TV simulcast.

00:12:22   That's to get people who are more casual viewers.

00:12:26   With the Pac-12, they could lock up Amazon or Apple,

00:12:31   possibly, for all of it.

00:12:32   It's much more likely that they have ESPN as a partner

00:12:37   because ESPN's gonna want to put some, you know,

00:12:40   Friday night college football games on ESPN proper,

00:12:44   and the Pac-12 is gonna want the exposure of being on ESPN

00:12:48   instead of off on a streaming service somewhere.

00:12:51   but that deal will be combined with a deal

00:12:54   for everything else that'll go to Amazon or Apple.

00:12:57   So it's possible.

00:12:58   Very much more people talking about it being Amazon

00:13:02   than Apple here,

00:13:03   but they're actually both West Coast companies.

00:13:06   And this is a West Coast sports league conference.

00:13:11   So, you know, whether it's Seattle or Cupertino

00:13:16   that wins the day here, you know, worth watching.

00:13:20   It's an interesting idea.

00:13:21   'cause I don't think any of these conferences

00:13:23   has made a deal with a streaming service

00:13:27   as the primary partner before,

00:13:29   and it may happen with a Pac-12.

00:13:30   - I wonder if a sticking point for Apple

00:13:34   might be trying to lock up the international,

00:13:39   like we're just the place where you get it.

00:13:42   You know, like the way that they've done

00:13:44   with Major League Soccer, which I think is great,

00:13:46   where it's like it doesn't matter where you are in the world

00:13:48   if you wanna watch this sport,

00:13:50   you can just go to Apple and watch it.

00:13:52   And I wouldn't be surprised if that was one of the many

00:13:56   things that was the issue with the NFL Sunday tickets.

00:13:59   It was just never gonna be simple for people to watch it.

00:14:02   And so I would expect that Apple maybe to at least be

00:14:07   starting with things like Major League Soccer,

00:14:09   where they can have a bit more of a dictatorial relationship

00:14:13   of to where these things are gonna be shown

00:14:16   where they're not when it comes to the negotiations.

00:14:19   - And college sports is a good example of that,

00:14:21   where there's no big international market

00:14:23   for this college sports stuff.

00:14:26   They would probably get, I should say also,

00:14:28   I don't think this is the streaming rights

00:14:30   to Pac-12 college football.

00:14:31   I should say college football is the thing

00:14:33   that drives streaming rights.

00:14:35   And there's some really good writers on the web,

00:14:36   if you wanna talk about sports rights

00:14:39   and specifically what's been going on with the Pac-12.

00:14:41   A guy named John Cazano, who worked for the newspaper

00:14:45   in Portland for years, has a substack.

00:14:48   And there's a guy named John Willner,

00:14:49   who writes for the San Jose Mercury News,

00:14:50   who writes about this a lot.

00:14:52   The Pac-12 is not just college football,

00:14:54   even though that drives so much of the money.

00:14:56   It's also, there are a lot of college basketball games

00:14:58   there, and then there's all sorts of other college sports

00:15:02   like volleyball and baseball and softball,

00:15:05   and there's like the swim meets, and there's like,

00:15:08   there's soccer, there's a huge,

00:15:11   if you look at what's on the Pac-12 networks,

00:15:13   it's actually an enormous catalog of content.

00:15:15   And that, one of the things that's valuable

00:15:18   in sports streaming is having a library to say,

00:15:23   look at all the games we've got.

00:15:25   So it'll be interesting to see if that pops over

00:15:28   into Amazon or Apple.

00:15:29   Amazon is reportedly working on a sports app

00:15:32   for Prime Video.

00:15:34   And so they definitely seem to be feeling the kind of like,

00:15:36   we want to fill our sports app with a catalog.

00:15:40   Apple with its international focus,

00:15:42   like there's that rumor,

00:15:43   I haven't heard any updates about it

00:15:45   that they were bidding for the rights to the first league,

00:15:48   soccer league in the Netherlands.

00:15:51   But I could also see an Apple strategy

00:15:52   where they want to kind of progress

00:15:54   since soccer is such an international sport

00:15:55   that they want to keep kind of like buying out

00:15:59   different leagues around the world

00:16:02   and putting them inside Apple TV

00:16:05   so that instead of like just getting MLS,

00:16:07   you get the MLS and you get the first league

00:16:11   in the Netherlands and you get, right,

00:16:13   like and they could keep going there.

00:16:14   But it'll be interesting to see what deals Apple makes

00:16:19   and what they don't make.

00:16:21   And in some cases it's gonna be like Sunday Ticket,

00:16:24   I think, not just that they don't necessarily wanna pay,

00:16:26   but that it doesn't make sense for them.

00:16:27   It's not part of their strategy.

00:16:29   - Referencing streaming rights and all that kind of stuff,

00:16:32   I wanted to mention, 'cause I forgot to last week,

00:16:35   that as part of covering for Jason,

00:16:36   I also guest hosted an episode of "Downstream"

00:16:39   with Julia Alexander.

00:16:41   We talk about a bunch of nosy stuff,

00:16:43   like we talk about Marvel, Marvel fatigue,

00:16:45   and all that kind of fun stuff.

00:16:47   But also I got to quiz Julia

00:16:49   about why international streaming rights are so messy.

00:16:52   For example, why can't I get HBO Max?

00:16:55   So if you wanna go check that out,

00:16:56   it's episode 38 of Downstream.

00:16:58   Downstream is one of my favorite podcasts.

00:17:00   Jason and Julia do a fantastic job of it.

00:17:02   So I recommend people go check it out.

00:17:05   - Thank you for being in there.

00:17:06   I mean, we, you and I kind of hatched the idea for it,

00:17:09   but in the end, I had an opening for a new show

00:17:13   and you didn't, so I'm glad you finally got

00:17:15   to make a little, almost like a homecoming,

00:17:18   'cause Downstream started with her guest episode

00:17:20   of Upgrade, essentially, so.

00:17:21   - It's fun to do that, but as I said to Julia,

00:17:24   I will happily be on the show or fill in any time,

00:17:26   'cause I had an absolute blast, it was so good.

00:17:29   We had a great time.

00:17:30   - And we've been threatening that,

00:17:31   I think since episode one, I've been like,

00:17:33   Mike Hurley's gonna have to come on

00:17:34   and it just hasn't happened yet,

00:17:35   so I'm so glad that worked out.

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00:19:56   the continued support of this show and all of Relay FM. Saddle up, Jason Snow. Is room around up time?

00:20:03   Yee-ha. You mentioned in the past- whoa hang on the lasers have gotten out! I was- that was the

00:20:12   - That was like a laser yee-haw.

00:20:14   I was throwing, shooting them into the sky.

00:20:15   - However, actually, that isn't necessarily

00:20:18   the worst place to put lasers in the Rumor Roundup,

00:20:22   because you mentioned a while ago, how long will it be?

00:20:26   I don't know if we said this in the show

00:20:27   or me and you were talking about it,

00:20:28   but like, how long could it be

00:20:30   until we have our own Rumor in Rumor Roundup?

00:20:32   - Oh yeah.

00:20:34   - Well, an anonymous listener wrote in

00:20:36   at upgradefeedback.com.

00:20:37   - What?

00:20:38   - To say.

00:20:39   - Sorry, I wanted to do a spit take there.

00:20:41   - I could hear there was a near spit take there.

00:20:45   - Yeah.

00:20:45   - They wrote in to say that they are working

00:20:47   with Apple's financing team in Europe

00:20:50   and that the Apple card will be launching

00:20:52   in the UK and Germany in 2023.

00:20:56   - You heard it here first.

00:20:56   - You heard it here first.

00:20:58   I read this and was like, oh yeah,

00:21:01   I remember when I really wanted that.

00:21:03   Like it feels like it was so long ago.

00:21:05   Now I have a question for you

00:21:07   that I don't know if anybody can answer

00:21:08   but how it works in America.

00:21:10   Is it only individuals that can sign up for the Apple Card?

00:21:13   Can businesses sign up for Apple Card?

00:21:15   Or is it just individuals?

00:21:16   - I think it's just individuals.

00:21:17   I don't think businesses can sign up.

00:21:18   - Okay, that's interesting.

00:21:20   'Cause basically, the way I'm thinking about it,

00:21:21   the reason I would want Apple Card

00:21:23   is for buying Apple products.

00:21:26   'Cause you get a large cash back on it, right?

00:21:28   It's like the largest cash. - Absolutely.

00:21:30   - So I figure like, you know,

00:21:31   for the products that I buy every year,

00:21:33   it would be silly not to do that, right?

00:21:36   - Exactly.

00:21:37   - So I will look into this, but I am keen,

00:21:38   I think this has taken way longer than it should have, I think, for them to start rolling

00:21:43   the Apple Card out internationally.

00:21:46   So I really do hope that this is a thing that will actually be coming here and then spreading

00:21:52   further out.

00:21:53   This has got to be part of their overall finance plans.

00:21:57   They've got to get this before they can get anything else.

00:21:59   You can't just keep launching new things and never roll them out outside of America.

00:22:03   And the reason it surprises me is Apple Pay did not take very long for them to get that

00:22:07   one going. I've got to imagine there are so many financial institutions that are very

00:22:16   willing to work with Apple on this, who have the necessary licenses in the same way that

00:22:21   it's Goldman Sachs right in America underpin the Apple card. There's got to be companies

00:22:25   internationally that would be willing to do this. I'm surprised it's taken as long as

00:22:29   it has.

00:22:30   Moving on, according to Ming-Chi Kuo, Apple has restarted development on an iPhone SE4.

00:22:37   So it was just two months ago that Ming-Chi Kuo said that Apple had abandoned the project

00:22:42   after continued struggles with chip design and a kind of, I don't want to use the word

00:22:49   confusion but like an uncertainty maybe of what their iPhone sales across the product

00:22:55   line.

00:22:56   You know we've been talking about this a lot right like the midi didn't sell well and then

00:23:00   the plus didn't sell well and they weren't sure what they were doing.

00:23:03   It's one of the reasons they cancelled the project.

00:23:06   Well it's back on the table now apparently and this device would have a 6.1 inch OLED

00:23:11   display and an Apple designed 5G chip. The device would be expected to be similar to

00:23:18   the iPhone 14 in its size with thicker bezels. Ross Young corroborated these reports stating

00:23:25   that the display would come from Chinese manufacturer BoE.

00:23:30   So all of this together seems interesting to me because it would suggest I think two

00:23:34   two things, like one, maybe that the corner is turned

00:23:38   on Apple's own 5G modems, right?

00:23:40   Because if that was one of the reasons they stopped doing it

00:23:43   then unless they would have changed their mind on it,

00:23:46   then, you know, of course they changed their mind on it,

00:23:49   maybe now it's working again,

00:23:50   so they put the product back on the table.

00:23:53   This also seems like maybe a way to use

00:23:55   a different manufacturer, right?

00:23:56   So they're using Chinese manufacturer BOE

00:23:58   and you'd say, but Mike, this isn't the diversifying

00:24:02   from China that we've been talking about.

00:24:04   and

00:24:25   I am asking myself, if this is an iPhone 14 sized iPhone SE

00:24:30   with an OLED display,

00:24:33   I'm not really sure who this device is for anymore.

00:24:35   - Well, so two things.

00:24:39   One is the obvious sort of like,

00:24:41   it's a device to hold down the bottom of the line.

00:24:46   So it's cheap and they're making it,

00:24:50   you design it to be cheap, that's what's going on here.

00:24:53   So maybe that display is cheap,

00:24:56   cheaper than the displays they're using.

00:24:59   Not necessarily worse, but maybe worse, but cheap.

00:25:03   And let's not forget too,

00:25:06   we're not comparing this to the iPhone 14, right?

00:25:10   It'll be compared to the iPhone 15.

00:25:13   So we're probably on the precipice of some iPhone redesign.

00:25:20   So to have this be kind of like,

00:25:22   sort of like the old phone design,

00:25:25   but they're moving on to new designs,

00:25:28   I think that that is potentially part of this too.

00:25:30   Just the idea that this is,

00:25:33   it will essentially be the one that looks

00:25:35   kinda like the iPhone 12, 13, 14,

00:25:38   but isn't because it's cheaper.

00:25:41   But I think, like if the Dynamic Island

00:25:44   is coming to the iPhone 15, right?

00:25:46   - This wouldn't have that.

00:25:47   - This isn't gonna have that, right?

00:25:49   it's gonna have notch presumably or, you know.

00:25:52   - Probably a notch.

00:25:54   - And I would say it'll have a worse camera,

00:25:57   it'll have a notch, it'll have like,

00:25:59   again, it will be like going back in time,

00:26:02   even though right now we look at it and think,

00:26:03   isn't this an iPhone 14?

00:26:05   It's like, it actually maybe is kind of like an iPhone 14,

00:26:09   but cheaper and then they keep that one around forever.

00:26:13   That's my guess about what this would be.

00:26:16   and that it firmly places the iPhone SE

00:26:19   in the cheaper iPhone category

00:26:22   and not the alternate ergonomics and cheaper category

00:26:27   that it's sometimes been in.

00:26:30   - So the iPhone SE currently starts at $429.

00:26:34   This device won't start at $429 with these specs.

00:26:37   Like I just don't see it.

00:26:39   And so that's kind of like what I'm wondering

00:26:42   of like, it's not smaller anymore.

00:26:45   and it might be cheaper, but it's going to be more expensive, I would expect, than a

00:26:51   device that it probably replaces.

00:26:54   So it's just an interesting thing to do.

00:26:58   I'm not convinced that this, me personally, I'm not convinced that this product actually

00:27:06   fulfills the needs that the iPhone SE currently fulfills.

00:27:11   is just on paper, this is puzzling to me as a like for consumers. I'm not sure that it's

00:27:17   really going to do either of the things that the iPhone SE has historically done.

00:27:22   I think you're if you're Apple, you're looking at the iPhone, like there are people with

00:27:26   an apple who don't look at the iPhone as a product, they look at it as a collection of,

00:27:31   you know, circles or shapes overlaid on the phone buying market, right? Like they're marketers,

00:27:39   That's the whole idea.

00:27:40   And so something that, you know, you're like,

00:27:43   oh, are phone buyers demanding a new iPhone SE?

00:27:46   Almost certainly not, right?

00:27:48   But, and these people, by the way,

00:27:50   are the people who got it wrong

00:27:51   with the mini and the plus, apparently.

00:27:53   But they're trying.

00:27:55   We can see, we've been seeing over the years,

00:27:57   Apple is trying to figure out like the most optimal way

00:28:00   to carve up the phone buying market

00:28:03   so that they can maximize their profits.

00:28:04   And they already are the best in the world at this,

00:28:07   but they wanna stay nimble

00:28:09   and they also wanna always be optimizing.

00:28:12   So I look at this and say,

00:28:14   maybe what they're trying to do here is saying,

00:28:16   okay, next year we're gonna do the iPhone 15.

00:28:18   We're gonna keep the iPhone 14 around.

00:28:22   We're gonna move the iPhone 13 down

00:28:23   and we're gonna kick out the iPhone 12.

00:28:25   And somebody looks at that

00:28:26   and the costs of manufacturing all that and said,

00:28:29   maybe we should kick out the iPhone 12 and 13

00:28:32   and the old SE and replace them all with a new SE

00:28:35   so we can simplify.

00:28:36   there's some reason why we really wanna kick the 12

00:28:38   and the 13 out.

00:28:39   And the reason we haven't killed,

00:28:40   or the 13 and the 14 at that point,

00:28:43   that low, like the several years ago phone,

00:28:46   that's still for sale, right?

00:28:48   And it's for sale for cheapness, right?

00:28:50   So it's like, well, let's do this.

00:28:52   Let's pull that previous model

00:28:55   that's got some premium specs in it.

00:28:58   Maybe it's stuff that's still more expensive

00:29:00   than we would like.

00:29:00   And let's create a cheap version of it.

00:29:03   And so that would be one scenario,

00:29:06   is just to say, well, next year,

00:29:08   they're gonna sell the 15 Pro and the 15,

00:29:11   and maybe the 14 will still be for sale,

00:29:14   maybe not, but maybe.

00:29:15   And then we're gonna dump the 13,

00:29:18   though they will have already dumped the 12, right?

00:29:21   They will dump the 13 and the SE,

00:29:23   and we'll have a new SE,

00:29:24   and then that'll sit there for two or three years.

00:29:26   Like in the end, is that something that makes sense

00:29:28   as an iPhone buyer?

00:29:29   No, I think it makes sense if you're somebody

00:29:32   who's at Apple and sees all the numbers up on a board,

00:29:35   especially in other, you know,

00:29:37   in regions where people tend to buy the cheaper phones

00:29:42   and you're like, well, how do we crack India?

00:29:44   Or like, how do we do this?

00:29:46   And we, you know, maybe they're even reaching

00:29:49   a difficult situation where they're looking

00:29:51   at the expensive components they use

00:29:53   in some of these iPhones that they need to

00:29:55   in order to sell them to richer parts of the world.

00:29:58   And they're like, you know,

00:29:59   this is never gonna be cheap enough for us.

00:30:03   So let's make a new phone that is fundamentally cheaper.

00:30:08   And if it doesn't sell that well in US and Europe,

00:30:13   but it sells really well in India and Brazil

00:30:15   and a bunch of other places like that,

00:30:17   then like, great, we've solved it, right?

00:30:19   They're thinking big picture,

00:30:20   they're thinking about filling in

00:30:21   that grid of potential phone buyers.

00:30:25   And that's what this feels to me.

00:30:26   I mean, the SE in some ways has always felt like this to me,

00:30:29   but this report suggests that maybe they're willing to go

00:30:32   even further in terms of sort of like the SE being

00:30:36   purpose built to fill kind of like some gaps

00:30:40   and maybe free them from continuing to manufacture

00:30:43   some other products that they wanna pull off

00:30:44   the product list.

00:30:46   - I agree with you, like all that makes perfect sense,

00:30:48   especially the idea of this like Venn diagram, right?

00:30:51   That is being made.

00:30:53   But I'm just not convinced with the way this is described

00:30:58   that they can hit the price point

00:31:00   that I think this product needs,

00:31:02   but I'm very willing to be wrong.

00:31:03   - It does feel like a stretch, doesn't it?

00:31:04   - Yeah, it doesn't seem realistic.

00:31:06   I mean, it will be, right?

00:31:08   At some point, maybe it's when this product comes out,

00:31:10   but at some point it will be cost efficient

00:31:13   to have an OLED display, 6.1 inch OLED display,

00:31:16   and a device that costs less than $500 from Apple.

00:31:19   Of course, it is very possible

00:31:21   for many companies to do this,

00:31:23   but I'm talking about iPhones specifically.

00:31:25   - Right.

00:31:25   - If you wanna continue getting a 30 to 40% margin

00:31:28   on a product, right?

00:31:29   Like, I'm not, which is what Apple wants,

00:31:31   I'm not convinced that they can do that right now

00:31:33   with this bill of materials,

00:31:35   but at some point it will be realistic,

00:31:38   but I'm just not sure if next year, right,

00:31:41   or whenever would be that time.

00:31:43   - I think it's worth being skeptical.

00:31:44   I don't know enough about the dynamics

00:31:46   of things like the display market,

00:31:47   but when I see the display is gonna be made

00:31:49   from Chinese manufacturer BOE,

00:31:52   I don't know anything about them.

00:31:53   Maybe they're great and they're amazing,

00:31:56   but I also look at that and think,

00:31:58   maybe they make a display of acceptable quality

00:32:02   that is way cheaper than the displays Apple is putting

00:32:04   in its higher end iPhones.

00:32:06   - Whether they're good or not,

00:32:07   they're not choosing this company for the iPhone Pro,

00:32:09   are they?

00:32:10   So they're obviously, Apple doesn't consider them

00:32:12   of the highest quality available.

00:32:14   - Or even the iPhone, right?

00:32:16   This is just for the iPhone SE.

00:32:18   So that's what I wonder is if they have, you know,

00:32:22   identified a whole bunch of expensive components.

00:32:25   And also let's not forget the Apple design 5G chip.

00:32:27   that this is a way for them to like,

00:32:30   first off, they're gonna test it.

00:32:31   This is something that we've been talking about

00:32:32   for a while now.

00:32:33   Test in a product that doesn't have a lot of volume

00:32:35   rather than in the crown jewels and see how it goes

00:32:39   and see what the issues are.

00:32:40   But across the board, there may be other component things

00:32:43   going on in here that are like, you know,

00:32:46   it's a cheaper component and that's just how it is

00:32:48   in order to make this product.

00:32:50   But yes, the dance between Apple wanting

00:32:53   to make a cheaper product,

00:32:54   wanting to maximize their profit margin

00:32:57   and also kind of keep their promise

00:32:59   of not making a bad product.

00:33:01   That's why those people get paid a lot of money, right?

00:33:05   'Cause that's what they're trying to do

00:33:06   is like we want a premium product

00:33:08   that people are gonna buy and be like,

00:33:09   "Yeah, that's why I bought the app product."

00:33:11   But we also wanna make it not too expensive

00:33:13   because we're gonna have to add our margin in.

00:33:16   And if we make this product for this target market,

00:33:18   but it misses the market by a hundred or $200, we failed.

00:33:22   Even if the product's good, we failed.

00:33:24   And if we make it cheaper, but the product's not good,

00:33:27   we failed, you've got to get them all

00:33:29   in that little triangle.

00:33:31   So that's tricky.

00:33:34   - Oh, Jason, I have some important real-time follow-up.

00:33:37   Ming-Chi Kuo in January talking about BOE.

00:33:40   - Yeah.

00:33:41   - Writing his Medium blog,

00:33:42   Apple analyst Ming-Chi Kuo, this comes from Macrum,

00:33:44   it says BOE has beaten Samsung for orders

00:33:47   for the upcoming iPhone 15 and iPhone 15 Plus.

00:33:50   - Oh, interesting. - And that by 2024,

00:33:52   BoE will start mass shipments of high-end OTPO displays

00:33:55   for the iPhone, making it the largest display supplier.

00:33:59   BoE has had unsuccessful attempts in the past

00:34:02   to become a more prominent player in Apple's supply chain

00:34:05   after reportedly failing product validation tests.

00:34:09   So let's take that back.

00:34:10   - I take back everything I said about BoE,

00:34:13   except for the fact that if they've got a larger deal

00:34:16   with Apple, it may be that this is the, you know,

00:34:18   These are the screens that don't meet up,

00:34:22   match up with the needs of the high-end displays,

00:34:24   but still.

00:34:25   - It still could fulfill the same thing we're talking about,

00:34:28   is that BOE may be able to produce a cheaper screen

00:34:30   of acceptable quality than Samsung or LG.

00:34:33   - Exactly. - Like at the lowest level,

00:34:35   that is divorced from the fact of whether a BOE

00:34:38   is actually going to be producing these displays

00:34:41   for the upcoming iPhone 15s.

00:34:44   - Right, or another way to view it is the BOE's

00:34:46   larger deal with Apple may also suggest that

00:34:50   unlike Samsung or LG,

00:34:53   BOE is willing to cut Apple a deal on certain displays

00:34:57   as part of a larger deal,

00:34:59   which allows Apple to get to this price point

00:35:01   for this display in this phone.

00:35:04   But we could file all of this under,

00:35:06   it's our same discussions about the mini and about the plus.

00:35:09   The SE is in there too,

00:35:10   which is there's like the hero iPhones.

00:35:14   And now we've got sort of the bifurcated hero iPhones.

00:35:16   So you've got the 14 and the 14 Pro,

00:35:18   and there may be an Ultra at some point

00:35:21   or something like that.

00:35:22   But you've also got Apple kind of like tinkering

00:35:24   around the margins elsewhere in the iPhone line.

00:35:29   This is all part of the same thing, which is like,

00:35:30   it's fascinating.

00:35:31   Remember when they only did one iPhone?

00:35:32   This is Apple really trying to maximize their profit

00:35:37   across the whole market.

00:35:40   And how do they do that?

00:35:41   It's, this is the product development side

00:35:45   of the same thing.

00:35:46   Remember, we talked a few years ago

00:35:47   about how there was that holiday season

00:35:50   where all of a sudden Apple was like,

00:35:52   "Hey, Angela Ahrens, it's great

00:35:55   that you're creating a community in Apple stores,

00:35:56   but we need to move products, right?

00:35:59   Like, we actually need to sell the iPhone now."

00:36:02   Well, this is the other part of that,

00:36:04   which is instead of just sort of putting out

00:36:05   a couple of iPhones and saying like,

00:36:07   "It's cool, they sell a lot, it's great."

00:36:09   They're like aggressively exploring different corners

00:36:13   of the market and trying to figure out the magic formula

00:36:16   that will give them as many customers

00:36:20   and as much profit as possible.

00:36:22   And the SE is just one tool for them to do that.

00:36:26   - Over the last couple of episodes,

00:36:29   I've been talking with my illustrious guests

00:36:31   about details from CAD models

00:36:33   that 9to5Mac have been publishing.

00:36:35   This week, we're gonna look at changes to the mute button

00:36:38   on the iPhone 15 Pro.

00:36:40   So 9to5Mac have heard from a source

00:36:42   that the next iPhone will move away

00:36:44   from the physical mute switch,

00:36:46   similarly to how they are moving to haptic buttons

00:36:49   for the volume and the wake button.

00:36:52   They have called it a quote pressing type button,

00:36:56   which is an incredibly weird way of saying things.

00:36:59   I feel like I know why they published this.

00:37:01   Somebody told them, or it was translated to,

00:37:05   this is a pressing type button.

00:37:07   and so they've just published what they were told?

00:37:09   - Well, my guess is it's a toggle button, right?

00:37:13   Where it's a, you know, let's say round button,

00:37:16   and you push it like a caps lock key or something like,

00:37:19   you push it in and it stays in,

00:37:21   and then you push it and it pops back out.

00:37:23   - Oh no, I don't think this is it.

00:37:24   I think this is--

00:37:25   - You think it's just a straight up toggle?

00:37:27   Well, if they do that, they could do it with fake,

00:37:29   they could fake it with haptics,

00:37:30   but then they just, they have to have it be like

00:37:32   a heavy haptic when you press it the first time

00:37:33   and a light haptic when you don't or whatever.

00:37:36   - That's exactly what I think they're gonna do

00:37:37   or hope they're gonna do.

00:37:38   - But they'll be modeling a toggle switch, right?

00:37:42   Modeling the idea that you press it, right?

00:37:45   A switch that you would press in and it would stay in

00:37:46   and you press it out and it pops back out.

00:37:49   And maybe that's not a moving part.

00:37:50   The other thing is that only the button is the moving part

00:37:53   in that scenario, I think.

00:37:54   So they could do it, but whether it's a virtual,

00:37:57   like a fake version of it or the real version of it,

00:37:59   it's just very different because with the current ring

00:38:02   silent that has been there since the very beginning,

00:38:05   The whole idea there is that it's a lot harder

00:38:06   to accidentally, you know, flip that switch.

00:38:10   And it's a lot easier if it's in your pocket

00:38:12   for you to press down on something

00:38:14   when you're trying to mash the volume button

00:38:15   and instead you mash the mute button, which is not great.

00:38:17   - You can also physically feel that it's muted, right?

00:38:20   Like it's not complicated.

00:38:22   Like you kind of can just,

00:38:24   I can put my hand in my pocket

00:38:25   and know that my phone is muted

00:38:26   without needing to change anything.

00:38:28   My hope here is they do what you said,

00:38:31   that it will be a,

00:38:32   They will have like different haptic feedback

00:38:35   for mute and unmute.

00:38:36   So maybe like you press it once to unmute it,

00:38:38   or like you press it and like hits you once or

00:38:40   like vibrates once.

00:38:42   And I don't know how they're going to do it, but

00:38:43   I just, I feel like they have to come up with

00:38:45   something that it can be done without needing to

00:38:48   look at the phone.

00:38:49   Like that's what I want because everybody's been

00:38:51   used to and people will be mad, including me.

00:38:53   Right.

00:38:54   Uh, but I, I don't think this will be a, a, a

00:38:57   moving thing at all.

00:39:00   - You think they're going to all virtual,

00:39:02   all touch-based controls, pressure-sensitive controls?

00:39:05   - Every, all of the other things I've been talking about

00:39:08   how everything is gonna be solid state buttons,

00:39:10   and I'm, if they're gonna change the mute switch,

00:39:14   like then, and every other button's

00:39:16   going to a solid state button,

00:39:17   then I feel like this is going to be the same.

00:39:20   Like I know that right now,

00:39:21   as they're pointing out to the chat, right?

00:39:23   Like if you flick the switch, it gives you a vibration.

00:39:26   I know that, right?

00:39:27   but that doesn't tell me if I'm muting or unmuting.

00:39:30   The physical movement of the switch does that.

00:39:32   So like, if it just buzzes at me the same time

00:39:35   for muting and unmuting, then I'm getting nothing, right?

00:39:38   Like I need something to tell me,

00:39:40   well, I press it once to mute.

00:39:41   - Maybe she's making a loud noise.

00:39:43   (laughing)

00:39:44   - You know what?

00:39:44   That would do it, wouldn't it?

00:39:46   - You are muted.

00:39:48   - Yes, thank you.

00:39:49   I was watching a TV show the other day

00:39:52   and it was a, it's a Star Trek show

00:39:54   and somebody's firing like a big laser gun

00:39:57   and in a firefight with these monsters

00:39:59   that are trying to kill her

00:40:00   and it runs out of lasers or whatever.

00:40:03   And the gun says, "Ding, out of ammunition."

00:40:08   And I thought, you know what?

00:40:09   You don't want your enemy to be told

00:40:11   you're out of ammunition.

00:40:13   Who programmed that in there?

00:40:15   What are they doing?

00:40:17   I wanted to mention something

00:40:18   about the physical button thing.

00:40:20   'Cause I know that people are like,

00:40:22   some people like it, some people don't like it.

00:40:24   They can't just be based on touch.

00:40:27   They have to be based on pressure

00:40:28   because you put them in other things

00:40:31   and like, or in your pocket or whatever.

00:40:33   So they have to be pressure sensitive.

00:40:35   They can't be touch sensitive.

00:40:36   They also can't be touch sensitive

00:40:37   because you can touch a button,

00:40:38   touching a button isn't pushing a button, right?

00:40:40   We learned that with that iPod that was terrible,

00:40:42   that had the four buttons across the front

00:40:45   that were touch sensitive.

00:40:46   And if you tried to use it by feel,

00:40:48   you just touch the buttons

00:40:49   and they do things that you didn't, it's awful, right?

00:40:52   But I wanted to say just as a little anecdote point here,

00:40:56   I've been using the iPhone 14 Pro.

00:40:58   I took it with me on my trip

00:41:00   because it's got the great camera.

00:41:01   But the primary reason is because of the dynamic island,

00:41:04   because my beloved Mini doesn't have that.

00:41:06   So I wanna use the dynamic island.

00:41:08   So I've been using this Apple loaned iPhone

00:41:12   and a funny thing has happened,

00:41:15   which is I have had multiple stuck buttons.

00:41:19   - My buttons stuck?

00:41:21   - Yeah, where one of the volume buttons

00:41:22   has got something under it and you can sort of squeeze it

00:41:25   and it kind of works. - My sleep/wake button's

00:41:26   gone weird in the last couple of weeks.

00:41:28   It's gotten smushy in a not good way.

00:41:30   - Yeah, yeah, and there's not, I mean,

00:41:33   I think there's just some grit or something in there,

00:41:35   but it, so now I've got one that goes up and down,

00:41:38   the volume down, I think, and the volume up

00:41:39   is like the super smushy, not very good.

00:41:43   And I had that moment where I thought,

00:41:46   oh, well, this is why they're,

00:41:48   this is why they're building these new buttons,

00:41:49   is 'cause this kind of stuff is happening

00:41:51   and it's not any good.

00:41:52   - This is planned obsolescence, Jason.

00:41:55   I've never had this problem before,

00:41:56   but now they're getting rid of it from the iPhone 15 Pro.

00:41:59   So on the iPhone 14 Pro,

00:42:00   they included a piece of grit under every button, you know?

00:42:03   So we're gonna be looking forward

00:42:04   to when they take them away.

00:42:06   That's how they get you.

00:42:08   - Yeah, I guess.

00:42:08   I mean, do we applaud them?

00:42:10   Do we applaud them for like, you know,

00:42:14   yes, I know you shot the president yesterday,

00:42:15   but today you didn't shoot the president, so good job.

00:42:18   Right, like well done.

00:42:19   It's like, I mean, iPhone buttons should not do this.

00:42:23   There's actually a button on my iPad

00:42:25   is a little like that too.

00:42:26   It's a little squishy.

00:42:27   And I don't know, it's not like I'm rolling around in sand

00:42:30   with my iPad or my iPhone.

00:42:32   It's not like I'm like, whee, here I am in a big,

00:42:36   like fine powder or whatever, or dirt.

00:42:40   And yet something got in there and it's not great.

00:42:44   - So yeah, I wouldn't mind.

00:42:45   So like for the buttons, I wouldn't mind,

00:42:47   especially if like you're right.

00:42:49   If they require a finger as well as the pressure, that will also be good because it will be

00:42:54   less likely that the volume will get changed when my phone is in my pocket, which does

00:42:58   happen sometimes when I'm listening to a podcast and the volume goes up, so that might

00:43:01   be nice for that.

00:43:06   Considering how long they kept the physical switch, I feel confident they will do something

00:43:11   that if they change the switch to a solid state button kind of thing, they will do some

00:43:16   kind of affordance for letting you know if it's muted or unmuted without shouting the

00:43:21   phone is unmuted.

00:43:24   Although if they did have that as an option, I feel like I would have to enable that just

00:43:29   for fun.

00:43:30   And Jason, why are we just talking about the iPhone 15 when we could also be talking about

00:43:34   the iPhone 16?

00:43:35   That's great, let's do all the iPhones.

00:43:37   Let's start making news about if you know anything about the iPhone 17 upgradefeedback.com.

00:43:43   Please let us know.

00:43:44   - New reports from the Elec are suggesting

00:43:46   that the 2024 iPhone will have an under display

00:43:50   face ID sensor with an under display selfie camera

00:43:55   to come in 2026, which would be what the iPhone 18?

00:43:59   So here was my question to you.

00:44:00   - Yeah, there we go.

00:44:01   iPhone 18 rumor, here it is.

00:44:03   - We skipped, so you haven't got the 17 though.

00:44:05   We're still hoping for 17 rumors.

00:44:06   - No, we're looking for that.

00:44:07   - Upgrade for you back to the phone.

00:44:09   So my question to you as I'm reading this,

00:44:11   I mean, this does seem natural, right?

00:44:12   like get rid of all of the cutouts, right?

00:44:15   Like that's the obvious thing to do in the future,

00:44:17   all screen. - 100%.

00:44:19   - But if they do that, does the Dynamic Island go away

00:44:23   or does it like change it?

00:44:25   What do you think that, let's imagine the situation

00:44:27   where they get rid of the Face ID thing, right?

00:44:29   So it's just in like next year, yeah,

00:44:33   and then the next year.

00:44:34   So we just have the selfie camera cut out.

00:44:36   What do you think that Dynamic Island looks like then?

00:44:39   - One of two things.

00:44:40   I think the most likely scenario

00:44:41   as the dynamic island will continue

00:44:43   because it's a very interesting way to show

00:44:45   all the things we talked about,

00:44:46   show status of things that are happening on your device

00:44:49   that are not the thing that is in the foreground right now.

00:44:52   And that the Mac has had that forever, right?

00:44:55   But like, how do you do that on, especially an iPhone?

00:44:57   I would argue maybe the iPad could use that too,

00:45:00   but like, especially on an iPhone,

00:45:01   having a floating status window,

00:45:04   it's like the equivalent of menu bar items, I guess,

00:45:08   or the dock or like a bunch of different things

00:45:09   that the Mac does for that.

00:45:11   I like it, I think it's a good idea.

00:45:13   Every time I take a trip, like I just did,

00:45:16   like having flighty information in the dynamic island

00:45:19   while I'm sitting there before my flight

00:45:21   and it's ticking down when, you know,

00:45:22   and it tells me where to go and all those things,

00:45:24   it's like, it's great, I love it.

00:45:26   So if Apple feels that the dynamic island is successful

00:45:29   and is an asset to the iPhone and to iOS,

00:45:33   then they'll just keep having it.

00:45:35   And it'll just be something that disappears entirely

00:45:38   when you're not using it.

00:45:39   and if you swipe it away, it goes away.

00:45:42   It just won't be hiding, masking a little circle.

00:45:47   It'll just, I think, go away and then reappear,

00:45:49   and that'll be what it is.

00:45:52   The alternative is the touch bar scenario,

00:45:54   a dark timeline, the touch bar scenario,

00:45:58   which is that we get to this point and Apple's like,

00:46:00   you know, we don't really like the dynamic island

00:46:03   and it'll just die.

00:46:04   But I think if they like it, they'll keep it.

00:46:06   - Surely that would have meant

00:46:07   they would have already had to have made that decision.

00:46:09   - No, I guess if it's just software,

00:46:11   they wouldn't have to, would they?

00:46:12   - No, no, I think it would be,

00:46:13   if the Dynamic Island is a loser,

00:46:15   they'll keep it on the ones with the punch outs,

00:46:18   and it'll never be anywhere else,

00:46:20   and then we'll never speak of the Dynamic Island ever again.

00:46:23   But my inclination right now is,

00:46:27   I feel fairly positive about the Dynamic Island.

00:46:29   It's not super revolutionary,

00:46:31   but it is a really nice addition to iOS

00:46:33   that I would keep it around.

00:46:37   Again, I don't want a little black pill on my screen

00:46:39   when nothing's going on.

00:46:41   I mean, that's what it does now.

00:46:42   And it's just like, we all know why it's doing that,

00:46:45   but it could just disappear entirely.

00:46:47   I mean, it's got all those animations, right?

00:46:49   There's nothing stopping it from kind of bloop

00:46:51   coming down from the top of the screen and enabling.

00:46:54   And like, I think it's really nice and clever

00:46:56   and subtle and fun.

00:46:58   And so I hope it sticks around,

00:47:00   but I think those are the two scenarios is, you know,

00:47:02   they'll keep it around because it's good.

00:47:05   It was invented because of the hole punch thing,

00:47:07   but that doesn't mean that

00:47:09   If they think it's good, they'll just keep it.

00:47:10   And I think it's good.

00:47:11   - In the scenario where it would not be a big cut out

00:47:16   anymore, but it would just appear and go away.

00:47:18   I would like to coin the term dynamic submarine

00:47:20   because it would just like disappear

00:47:23   and then come back out again, you know?

00:47:25   Like it submerges and re-emerges.

00:47:27   Dynamic submarine, you heard it here first.

00:47:30   - But that could be, well, okay,

00:47:31   two pieces of feedback for this idea.

00:47:33   We're just brainstorming here.

00:47:34   One is the dynamic island,

00:47:38   what makes a dynamic could be indeed

00:47:40   that it appears and disappears.

00:47:41   So that would be, it would be,

00:47:43   still be a dynamic island.

00:47:45   And second, most submarines are dynamic.

00:47:48   - Yeah, and this would just be another one.

00:47:50   I just, you know, island, I don't know,

00:47:52   like an island going under water and coming back up again?

00:47:54   - Sure. - That's not so great.

00:47:55   - Like the tides, or have you ever seen Lost?

00:47:57   It's like that.

00:47:58   - Okay, so like what we're saying then is that--

00:48:00   - It's a magical island.

00:48:02   - The, well, the screen is dynamic

00:48:05   because it's covering the island in water,

00:48:07   and the water is the pixels or the photos of your family.

00:48:11   - Yeah, and there's a submarine down there.

00:48:14   - Makes perfect sense to me.

00:48:15   - Sure, it's good to be back.

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00:50:47   of this show and Relay FM.

00:50:49   Mark Gurman is reporting that the next iMac is in a "advanced stage of development called

00:50:58   engineering validation testing" as everybody knows it. Mark is saying that this will have

00:51:06   the same 24 inch screen, it will come in the same colours, it will likely ship in the second

00:51:12   half of this year at the earliest and will most likely feature an M3 chip.

00:51:20   We got a question from Justin who wrote in to say "What do you want from the next 24

00:51:25   inch iMac in addition to an updated M chip?"

00:51:28   Well first off it's great that Mark Gurman's got some detail about the iMac because it's

00:51:33   been out there as a mystery for a while now and what he's been saying all along is that

00:51:38   they're basically holding it for M3

00:51:39   and we're not gonna get an M2 iMac.

00:51:42   What's interesting is this report

00:51:47   is also Mark's report basically saying the M3 is coming.

00:51:50   Which is funny, right?

00:51:54   'Cause didn't the M2 just arrive with the last WWDC,

00:51:59   with the MacBook Air and the MacBook Pro?

00:52:01   But here it is again.

00:52:02   But I think, and he said, in his report,

00:52:05   he said something about how Apple wants

00:52:07   to get the M series on an annual cycle.

00:52:09   I'm not sure I entirely believe that.

00:52:12   Maybe he's got some information

00:52:14   that that's their ultimate goal,

00:52:15   that they want to march it in lockstep with the iPhone.

00:52:18   But it certainly feels,

00:52:19   and we've been talking for a while now,

00:52:20   that the M2 was sort of a half step of like,

00:52:23   refresh the chip, but it doesn't have all the stuff.

00:52:26   And that the M3 will be maybe a more substantial leap

00:52:30   that it may be based on a later generation of the A cores

00:52:36   instead of like the existing generation, maybe not.

00:52:39   If it's in June, we'll see, but like they could,

00:52:42   there's nothing stopping them from unveiling those cores

00:52:44   before the iPhone.

00:52:45   I know people are like, but it's always been the iPhone.

00:52:47   It's like, well, yeah, except for that one year

00:52:50   where it was the iPad, but it's true,

00:52:52   but they could, they, you know, the Mac matters too.

00:52:55   They could unveil those cores in an M3

00:52:58   and people are not gonna scream when the iPhone comes out

00:53:01   because the iPhone doesn't use the M3,

00:53:03   it uses an A chip and it's fine.

00:53:05   Like we can split this,

00:53:08   we can split these hairs way too fine

00:53:10   and we don't necessarily need to.

00:53:11   But the idea of M3 being here, really interesting.

00:53:15   There's another report from Mark

00:53:16   that we'll get to in a minute

00:53:17   that I think makes a lot of sense too.

00:53:20   I feel like the iMac, they just made it.

00:53:22   And so I would not be surprised if this iMac,

00:53:24   when I was reading like same colors, same 24 inch,

00:53:28   I'm like, yeah, I think it's just gonna be the iMac

00:53:30   with an M3 in it.

00:53:32   And maybe they'll do some other tweaks

00:53:33   because they've had a couple of years

00:53:35   and they've had time.

00:53:36   This is obviously one of the first Apple Silicon Macs.

00:53:40   So to revisit it a little bit later

00:53:43   and tweak it a little bit.

00:53:45   So the things on the list, right,

00:53:47   are is there a variant of it that uses the Pro chip maybe,

00:53:52   like the Mac mini to give it a little more speed

00:53:56   if you wanna pay more

00:53:57   or are they not capable of cooling that?

00:54:01   There's a question of like,

00:54:02   could they do something with a display

00:54:04   that's nicer.

00:54:06   Although the idea again, it's an iMac,

00:54:09   you put ProMotion on an iMac, a 24 inch iMac,

00:54:12   I'm not sure you do.

00:54:13   And then the March report says that they've changed

00:54:16   the way that the stand attaches.

00:54:17   And I'm not quite sure whether that's just

00:54:18   an internal manufacturing thing

00:54:20   or if the stand is gonna be different.

00:54:22   You have an iMac though.

00:54:23   I'm actually more curious about,

00:54:26   as somebody with an M1 iMac,

00:54:28   where you think that they could improve this.

00:54:31   - I mean, the obvious answer is a bigger one,

00:54:33   but I feel like that's kind of cheating,

00:54:35   but I would like a bigger one.

00:54:36   I think that like the Mac Mini,

00:54:40   I would like to see more chip options,

00:54:42   like an M3 Pro in the iMac,

00:54:46   I don't think would be a wild thing to ask for.

00:54:50   I feel like for me really, as a machine,

00:54:53   it was the only place where I felt

00:54:56   like it was lacking ultimately,

00:54:57   was from a usability perspective,

00:55:00   was the M1 is obviously great,

00:55:03   but when I was comparing it to my M1 Pro,

00:55:08   I think I have a Macs, MacBook Pro, very different,

00:55:11   in a way that I don't feel that difference so heavily

00:55:14   when I go from M2 to M1 Pro.

00:55:16   So if they had an M3 and an M3 Pro configuration,

00:55:21   I just think that would be really good for that machine.

00:55:23   I think it would then more easily fit

00:55:25   into different work spots, like places work,

00:55:28   if they're not going to make a quote unquote

00:55:32   pro version of the machine, right?

00:55:34   - Right, exactly.

00:55:36   - Again, another more realistic request

00:55:39   would be a better webcam, right?

00:55:40   What I'll just ask of all of them,

00:55:42   but especially the iMac, you've got space, you have space.

00:55:46   Right, like, you know, if the biggest issue

00:55:48   with the laptops is there's not a lot of space in the lid,

00:55:50   you've got like depth that you could put a better camera

00:55:54   into this display if you wanted to.

00:55:56   - Hard not to believe that they won't,

00:55:59   at the very least, do what they did

00:56:03   with the studio display, right?

00:56:05   And offer center stage.

00:56:06   Now, it would be interesting if they did that,

00:56:09   but the experience was better or the camera was better,

00:56:12   because that would suggest that they've iterated there

00:56:15   and said back to the drawing board for that camera.

00:56:18   But if I had to put money down,

00:56:20   my guess would be it'll have a center stage camera, yeah.

00:56:23   - And I do want a better stand,

00:56:24   or at least stand options,

00:56:27   like the studio displays options.

00:56:29   - Right, 'cause it just has the one, right?

00:56:31   - Yeah, that's it.

00:56:32   - Or I think you can get a VESA mount,

00:56:35   but you can't do an adjustable stand or anything like that.

00:56:37   That would be awfully nice

00:56:38   if they had the same stand options as the studio display,

00:56:42   and you could have an adjustable stand.

00:56:43   - And I know it'd be complicated

00:56:45   because then they would need to make

00:56:47   like another six colors of it or whatever.

00:56:49   - Colors, yeah.

00:56:50   - We spoke about it at the time,

00:56:53   and I spoke about it many times since,

00:56:55   like the height that those machines get off the desk

00:56:58   is just not high enough to really be comfortable.

00:57:01   And I would like to see that. - Yeah, it's a little low.

00:57:02   - Yeah. - Yeah, it's just,

00:57:04   it's a little low, adjustable stand would be,

00:57:06   that's one of those areas where Apple will say,

00:57:08   "Oh, well, we did our ergonomic blah, blah, blah."

00:57:10   But I think the truth is they did their ergonomic blah,

00:57:12   blah, blah, and maybe they found like a height

00:57:15   that was the best common height.

00:57:17   I'm skeptical because it's still pretty low, but maybe.

00:57:22   But the problem is that you're just taking the top

00:57:24   the bell curve there.

00:57:25   Like I think that your monitor should be adjustable

00:57:29   and the iMac is a monitor.

00:57:31   The idea, I think I said in my review at the time

00:57:33   that it's a beautiful computer

00:57:34   and then you have to put it on a book or something, right?

00:57:36   Like an encyclopedia in order to get it to the right height

00:57:40   and it's stupid, like you should be able to adjust it.

00:57:42   So whether they could make you make an adjustable version

00:57:45   or they could build it with the adjustable stand built in,

00:57:50   that would be awfully nice.

00:57:51   David in our Discord pointed out something that I think

00:57:55   was on our list back in the day

00:57:56   when we talked about the M1 when it first came out,

00:57:58   which was the possibility that they could make

00:58:01   that power plug block that's got the ethernet port in it,

00:58:05   a more useful like USB dock where you could,

00:58:10   'cause the whole idea there is,

00:58:11   oh, you don't want a networking cord on your desk,

00:58:15   so you can put it on the floor

00:58:16   and plug it into the power block.

00:58:17   And it's like, yes, okay,

00:58:18   I would like some other things to plug into that.

00:58:20   - But what about literally every other cord?

00:58:22   Why just this one?

00:58:24   What's so bad about ethernet?

00:58:26   - And it's an upsell because that ethernet cord

00:58:28   is only on higher end models or you have to buy it extra

00:58:32   on the lower end model.

00:58:33   So do that, we also have this amazing new iMac dock,

00:58:38   especially if the computer's not changing.

00:58:40   What do you highlight as Apple,

00:58:42   as you're marketing the new version of it?

00:58:44   M3 chip, sure, okay, great.

00:58:46   Same great colors, well, okay, that's the same.

00:58:49   But you could say like, we've got this awesome new,

00:58:50   look at this awesome thing we built.

00:58:52   We built this whole new power block thing

00:58:55   that is a USB hub, a USB-C hub, a Thunderbolt hub,

00:59:00   whatever they wanna say.

00:59:02   And how many people do we talk to in our audience

00:59:05   who are like one of the constant things people talk about

00:59:08   is like Thunderbolt hubs and this doesn't work right

00:59:11   with this or USB-C hubs and this doesn't work right

00:59:13   in this connection and all that.

00:59:15   And like, I'm not saying that Apple would,

00:59:18   Apple would just add complexity to that obviously,

00:59:20   but it would be the Apple official,

00:59:23   like Apple has done it and integrated it,

00:59:25   and here it is, it's built into your iMac.

00:59:28   And yeah, it takes that cord clutter argument further.

00:59:33   Like you could even plug in some devices over here

00:59:36   and not worry about them.

00:59:38   I would love to see that.

00:59:39   So that's a good suggestion from David in the Discord.

00:59:41   - And also this is unrealistic, I think,

00:59:44   to ask for this machine, but again,

00:59:46   eventually it will come to everything,

00:59:48   but a ProMotion display,

00:59:49   or just a higher quality display.

00:59:52   - I agree, I think it's inevitable everywhere,

00:59:56   but this iMac is essentially the only iMac,

01:00:00   but I was gonna say it's the old low-end iMac slot

01:00:02   a little bit, and value is important, right?

01:00:04   They wanna keep the price down, and I don't think,

01:00:07   I think that ProMotion is a great feature

01:00:09   to have in products with the word pro in them,

01:00:12   and that means not the iMac.

01:00:14   feels unlikely to get promotion in an iMac

01:00:18   before a studio display, right?

01:00:20   - Yes, 100%.

01:00:22   - But I would still like it.

01:00:24   Mark Gorman also confirmed that there are three new Macs

01:00:26   expected between spring and summer.

01:00:28   So it is the 15 inch MacBook Air

01:00:31   that we've been hearing about.

01:00:33   Or at least a 15 inch laptop to fill a space.

01:00:37   - Right, 'cause we don't know, marketing wise

01:00:39   they could choose to call it MacBook or MacBook Air.

01:00:42   - Or MacBook Studio or anything.

01:00:44   an update to the 13-inch MacBook Air

01:00:47   and also the Apple Silicon Mac Pro.

01:00:49   - So an update to the 13-inch MacBook Air

01:00:52   is fascinating, right?

01:00:53   Because that just came out last June.

01:00:56   So if it's a physical update, like it's a new model,

01:01:00   I don't, I mean, it would have to be an M3.

01:01:04   His story is like, "Yeah, it's unclear

01:01:06   if it's an M2 or an M3."

01:01:07   And it's like, well, one of two things is true.

01:01:10   'Cause they're not gonna say, "Here's a new MacBook Air."

01:01:12   It's just like the old one, right?

01:01:13   Like, well, no, that's not new.

01:01:17   It's the old one.

01:01:18   You just set it.

01:01:19   So either it's got a new chip in it

01:01:22   or they're doing something else with it.

01:01:25   Like my guess would be at that point,

01:01:26   it's like new colors or something, right?

01:01:29   But if this is truly a new,

01:01:32   and I'm not sure his report would rise to the level

01:01:35   if all they were doing was changing the colors.

01:01:37   So it feels to me like what this is,

01:01:39   is they're going to do maybe a WWDC again

01:01:42   or a little bit thereafter, they're going to just say,

01:01:45   "Here's the new MacBook Air with M3."

01:01:47   And it's the M2 MacBook Air except with M3,

01:01:50   and that's the difference to it.

01:01:52   And maybe they'll add colors anyway,

01:01:54   'cause please, please, please, Apple, color laptop.

01:01:59   - This makes me think that they are going to call

01:02:03   that 15-inch laptop a MacBook Air,

01:02:05   because I could imagine them saying,

01:02:08   "Here is this new 15-inch MacBook Air.

01:02:10   It has this and this and this,

01:02:12   and it features an M3, and today we're also putting the M3

01:02:16   in the 13-inch MacBook Air, moving on.

01:02:18   - The only thing that gives me pause there

01:02:20   is that that 15-inch MacBook Air is rumored to be soon,

01:02:23   and I'm not sure, is the M3 gonna be ready,

01:02:26   or is it gonna be the last sort of consumer M2,

01:02:29   and then they'll do the M3 in three to six months?

01:02:33   - No idea.

01:02:34   - Right, that's, so I think there's definitely a scenario

01:02:35   here where if that MacBook Air is being made now,

01:02:38   it's an M2, and it'll come out as an M2,

01:02:40   and then in June or July or August,

01:02:42   they'll announce the MacBook Air with the M3,

01:02:46   and that'll be the launch of the M3,

01:02:48   which is that core MacBook Air.

01:02:50   I think that's the most likely scenario.

01:02:51   - That just doesn't make sense to me,

01:02:54   to update the M2 one year later with an M3.

01:02:57   I don't get, I'm not sure I can get that.

01:03:01   - I think it may just be production

01:03:03   that they're gonna bump this out there,

01:03:06   and right, because yes,

01:03:09   Ideally you would release them in lockstep, right?

01:03:11   New 13 and 15,

01:03:12   but they may not have the ability to do that right now.

01:03:15   And so they'll put out the 15

01:03:16   and then they'll put out the M3 Air.

01:03:18   And then six months later,

01:03:19   they'll put out the M3 version of the 15

01:03:22   and then they'll sync up the next year or something.

01:03:23   Maybe, maybe.

01:03:25   I mean, this is the question though, right?

01:03:27   Also, we don't know when they were intended, right?

01:03:28   Like that MacBook Air may be intended for late summer

01:03:31   and that Mac, the 15 inch, whatever it is,

01:03:34   might've been intended even for earlier, right?

01:03:36   And it sort of slid.

01:03:38   And we think they're so close together,

01:03:40   why don't they both release at the same time?

01:03:43   And they think, no, no, no, you're not seeing,

01:03:46   not to have another tangent,

01:03:49   but you know how the Marvel fans will talk about like MCU,

01:03:53   phase four, and oh, now it's phase five and all that.

01:03:56   But like, it's kind of invisible

01:03:57   and people who aren't hardcore fans

01:03:59   don't pay attention to that stuff, right?

01:04:01   Well, this is a little like that,

01:04:03   where it's like inside Apple,

01:04:04   we may be watching the end of the M2 collection of products

01:04:07   and the beginning of the M3 collection of products.

01:04:10   And these two, you know,

01:04:12   this one product is sort of slid to the end,

01:04:15   and then here's this next one,

01:04:16   and Mark talks about them together,

01:04:18   but from the inside, it may be like, no, no, no, no, no.

01:04:21   This is an M2 and that's an M3,

01:04:23   because it's part of the different cycle.

01:04:25   But they've slid close enough together that we're like,

01:04:26   why can't they all be M3s?

01:04:28   I don't know.

01:04:29   I mean, that's part of standing on the outside,

01:04:31   looking inside the black box.

01:04:33   Certainly, everybody's really hyped

01:04:35   about the 15-inch MacBook Air,

01:04:37   might be a little sad if it's an M2,

01:04:39   knowing that there's an M3 chip coming in a few months.

01:04:42   At the same time, the M2 is so capable,

01:04:44   especially for something that's the class

01:04:46   of the MacBook Air, that I would really not worry about it.

01:04:49   I mean, like preview of my review of a product

01:04:51   that has not been announced.

01:04:52   If there's a 15 inch MacBook Air with M2,

01:04:54   the fact that it doesn't have an M3 in it

01:04:56   is not gonna be a big deal.

01:04:57   It's gonna be, it's fine.

01:04:59   It's just fine because the M2 MacBook Air right now

01:05:02   is awesome and M2 is more than enough

01:05:05   for almost everybody.

01:05:13   The M2 chip was always designed as a stop gap ahead of the M3, which will mark the first

01:05:18   time Apple is moving from a 5nm chip to a 3nm design. The shift will bring a major boost

01:05:24   to performance and power efficiency. Having the new MacBook Air sport the M3 would also

01:05:29   make sense from a timing perspective. Apple has been clear it wants to put Mac grade processors

01:05:34   on an annual upgrade cycle. Last year Apple introduced the M2 chip at WWDC. If Apple were

01:05:41   to stick to last year's schedule, an M3 alongside a new MacBook Air would make sense. The company

01:05:46   could then follow up with the M3 later in the year and the M3 Pro and M3 Macs based

01:05:52   Pros in 2024.

01:05:53   So, one quibble with that, which he says Apple has always been clear that they want the M

01:05:57   series on an annual cycle. No. No. Maybe they said it somewhere, maybe he's got sources,

01:06:02   has it been clear? No. I'm assuming he means it's clear. In fact, it's been very unclear. To him? I suppose.

01:06:08   Because no, I agree with you. They've never said that. I don't know. He phrases that in a way that I don't agree with at all.

01:06:14   I don't think they've been clear about that. Maybe, and it's so, so now it's unclear, ironically, that

01:06:19   it might be, we don't know if it's Mark's source or if it's something else. But what he says is a three nanometer process, though.

01:06:26   This is what we've been talking about for a while now, which is,

01:06:31   feels like the M3.

01:06:35   So the M1 is based on the A14.

01:06:39   The M2 is based on the A15.

01:06:41   The iPhone Pro is currently using the A16.

01:06:45   Now, normally you would think the M3

01:06:47   would use the A16 cores.

01:06:50   A16 is not a three nanometer process, right?

01:06:54   It's their enhanced five nanometer process.

01:06:56   Is that right?

01:06:57   - I believe so.

01:06:58   I don't think there are any three nanometers

01:06:59   at all at the moment.

01:07:00   - Right, they have, it's that enhanced, whatever,

01:07:04   what it is, enhanced five nanometer and four P process.

01:07:09   Yeah, yeah, so they call it four.

01:07:11   Mark says three here.

01:07:12   So if we take Mark at his word,

01:07:14   I think it fits that idea that the A16 itself

01:07:18   is sort of like also a stop gap

01:07:20   and that, and the next M series chip

01:07:24   is not gonna be based on that A16

01:07:26   that we saw last fall on the iPhone Pro.

01:07:28   It's gonna be based on a new,

01:07:31   it might be the same cores on the new process, who knows?

01:07:33   But like, it's gonna be different.

01:07:35   It's not gonna be, oh, this is the A16 again,

01:07:39   except max sized.

01:07:40   It's gonna either be a new bunch of cores

01:07:43   that are like the A17, or it's gonna be the A16,

01:07:46   but at a new process size with a bunch of max stuff in it.

01:07:49   It's gonna be different.

01:07:50   And that's exciting, right?

01:07:51   Because it's not, it breaks the mold of every time

01:07:55   and the Mac updates its hardware,

01:07:58   it just inherits the stuff from the last iPhone chip.

01:08:02   It makes it a little bit different.

01:08:03   And if they truly are trying to get to a one year cycle

01:08:06   with the M series, which makes sense, right?

01:08:08   'Cause they're on the one year cycle with the iPhone,

01:08:10   being 18 months with the Mac means

01:08:12   that you probably do have to skip

01:08:14   a phone chip generation every so often.

01:08:16   So if they truly wanna get there,

01:08:19   they need to push it ahead.

01:08:21   But I do believe very much, very strongly

01:08:23   that there's nothing stopping from Apple

01:08:25   to showing off next generation cores,

01:08:28   CPU or GPU or other stuff in the Mac

01:08:31   because M1 and M2, and he calling it a stop gap.

01:08:34   I mean, yeah, that's exactly right.

01:08:36   M1 and M2, it's like for Apple to raise

01:08:39   this whole Apple Silicon thing up and get it running,

01:08:41   they have done this sort of like,

01:08:43   well, we're spinning off of our iPhone work,

01:08:45   but it's entirely possible that Apple is gonna get

01:08:47   to a point and maybe it's the M3 where Apple's like,

01:08:50   you know, it's not that simple.

01:08:52   Maybe we'll have our boys back on, our chip pals,

01:08:57   Tom and Tim, maybe they can tell us this.

01:08:59   - Ah, boys. - But the idea is,

01:09:04   it's not that simple.

01:09:05   I could hear Tim saying this actually, Tim Millet.

01:09:08   It's not that simple.

01:09:11   We might introduce new cores here

01:09:14   and then they come to the iPhone later.

01:09:16   Like there's nothing stopping Apple from saying,

01:09:18   our new core generation starts on the Mac

01:09:21   and then we'll use those cores in the iPhone

01:09:23   or our new CPU cores,

01:09:24   or maybe our new GPU cores start on the Mac.

01:09:26   And then they come to the iPhone later.

01:09:28   Like they can do that.

01:09:29   It's not, you know,

01:09:31   the system does not permanently have to be structured as

01:09:35   we take an iPhone chip and we photocopy it

01:09:37   and then we expand it.

01:09:38   And now we've got a Mac chip.

01:09:40   It could very easily be a much more complicated structure.

01:09:43   Like that was good, I think,

01:09:45   as a way to do it to start Apple Silicon.

01:09:47   But like now that they're rolling with it

01:09:50   And the Mac has all these kind of particular needs

01:09:52   and there's particular timing involved.

01:09:54   Like I said earlier, the A series,

01:09:57   like there will be a new A17 chip, right?

01:10:00   There'll be an A17 chip.

01:10:01   And nobody is going to,

01:10:03   if the M3 has next generation cores

01:10:05   that the A16 doesn't have,

01:10:08   when the A17 comes out, people aren't gonna be like,

01:10:10   "Oh, it's such an old,

01:10:13   oh, it was already in the MacBook Air."

01:10:15   Because it's not, it's not the M3, it's the A17.

01:10:19   even if all of the nerds are like, it's the M3, right?

01:10:23   Like it doesn't matter.

01:10:24   So this will be something to watch.

01:10:27   And I know I'm, I'm bleeding a lot from him saying,

01:10:29   hey, there's going to be a new MacBook Air,

01:10:31   but it, from us trying to figure out how Apple Silicon works

01:10:35   over and will work over the years,

01:10:37   I think the idea that there might be a year after the M2,

01:10:40   there might be an M3 Air.

01:10:42   I think that's really exciting.

01:10:43   Beyond that and possibly colors,

01:10:45   I don't think it will change at all

01:10:47   because they just did the design.

01:10:49   And it's great.

01:10:50   So it'll just stay.

01:10:51   Maybe there'll be some color variations

01:10:53   and a new chip and that's it.

01:10:54   - And finally, Mark dropped into this report

01:10:57   that he has heard that an iPad Pro

01:10:59   of an M3 chip and OLED display

01:11:02   is due in the first half of 2024.

01:11:04   And that the first MacBooks with OLED screens

01:11:06   and touch input are currently on track for 2025.

01:11:10   - Okay.

01:11:11   - I want that.

01:11:12   Give me that.

01:11:14   - Interesting.

01:11:14   Yeah.

01:11:15   Yeah, what are they?

01:11:16   What do they look like?

01:11:17   How do they work?

01:11:18   Guess we'll have to wait for another Roomer Roundup

01:11:21   to find out.

01:11:22   - We sure will.

01:11:23   We sure will.

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01:12:36   Let's do some Ask Upgrade questions to finish out today's episode.

01:12:44   Oh no!

01:12:46   The lasers got replaced by sheep.

01:12:48   This is quite concerning.

01:12:50   - New Zealand, man, I'm telling you.

01:12:52   - So what you're saying is in New Zealand, lasers are sheep.

01:12:57   - No, I think the sheep have just covered the lasers

01:12:59   and there will absorb the laser energy.

01:13:02   - Well, hopefully by next, wait, oh no,

01:13:04   that's really, that's upsetting.

01:13:05   So if the lasers, if the sheep are covering lasers

01:13:08   and we heard lasers in the Rumor Roundup,

01:13:10   did the sheep get blown up, Jason?

01:13:12   Is that what you're saying?

01:13:14   - No, the rumor roundups in the old west.

01:13:18   - But they have lasers in the old west?

01:13:19   Is this like a Back to the Future kind of thing?

01:13:21   Like Back to the Future 3 when they come?

01:13:22   - Look, those weren't actually lasers,

01:13:24   they were just a six gun going pew, pew.

01:13:27   - Oh, interesting, a laser six gun.

01:13:29   - They weren't lasers at all.

01:13:30   It was like bang, bang, yep, whatever.

01:13:32   I don't know, I just made a sheep noise.

01:13:33   That's the, this is your New Zealand flavor.

01:13:36   I did it.

01:13:37   Not as many sheep, well, I won't get into it.

01:13:39   There's not as many sheep in the same one as I thought.

01:13:41   All right, all right.

01:13:42   - John wants to know, when you use

01:13:45   two factor authentication, do you use

01:13:47   an authenticator app or SMS?

01:13:50   - One password is what I'm using.

01:13:53   So authenticator app, I'm always sad

01:13:55   when they wanna send me a text message

01:13:57   because I don't want a text message,

01:13:59   I want to use my authenticator app.

01:14:01   - Yeah, when I started setting up two factor stuff,

01:14:04   I use text messages and I'm like transitioning that away

01:14:08   just because not for the, and then please,

01:14:12   what I'm saying is not for the security reasons, right?

01:14:14   It's just like, I understand the idea

01:14:17   that somebody could intercept my text messages,

01:14:19   but I feel like if somebody's trying

01:14:20   to intercept my text messages,

01:14:22   again, I've got some problems, right?

01:14:24   Like there are some problems in my life

01:14:26   if someone's trying to target me like that.

01:14:28   For me, it's about convenience,

01:14:31   and especially these days with the extension support

01:14:36   on iOS as well as on macOS,

01:14:40   the ability to just have the little one password thing,

01:14:43   just fill all this stuff automatically for me is amazing.

01:14:46   Like I love it.

01:14:48   So I use one password for that too.

01:14:50   It's easy enough to set up.

01:14:52   The key if you think to yourself,

01:14:55   'cause this took me a while to get my head around,

01:14:57   if you're like, wait, how are they using one password

01:15:00   for authentication or like the two factor?

01:15:03   In one password, they're called one time passwords or OTP.

01:15:08   That's the part that you're setting up.

01:15:10   It's in every entry.

01:15:12   You can add a one-time password

01:15:15   and you have to put in a code or scan a QR code

01:15:17   and then it will generate the two-factor code.

01:15:19   So if you've ever been confused, that's what you want.

01:15:22   But yeah, I agree with you.

01:15:24   Way easier to just do it in an app

01:15:26   than to deal with text messages.

01:15:28   - These days with the new Safari extensions

01:15:32   for the password managers too,

01:15:34   and also Apple's own password manager

01:15:37   will do one-time passwords too.

01:15:38   So you don't even need to use a third party,

01:15:40   but it all auto, like I say, here's my password,

01:15:44   pop up from the password manager

01:15:46   and its extension in the browser.

01:15:48   And it, in some cases it auto fills,

01:15:53   if the first screen presses the button,

01:15:54   goes to the next screen, puts in the one-time code

01:15:57   and presses the button and I'm in,

01:15:59   and I haven't had to do anything, that's great.

01:16:02   - Sometimes you have to like just tap in the text field

01:16:04   and then it's like pasting it in or something.

01:16:06   It's super clever and it's super easy.

01:16:09   You know, it is great when,

01:16:11   and I love when Apple added that like text message,

01:16:14   like thing where like it could work out the codes

01:16:16   from the text and just drop them in for you.

01:16:17   - Oh yeah. - It's like a great feature.

01:16:19   But to be honest,

01:16:21   like just getting the text messages annoy me

01:16:23   'cause it just fills up my text, my iMessage.

01:16:25   It's just like a bunch of crap that I don't want.

01:16:27   - You go back to messages and you're like,

01:16:28   your 2FA code is, and you're like, shut up, I don't want it.

01:16:31   - I wished that it would delete those messages for me.

01:16:34   - Yeah, I mean, that's a,

01:16:35   there's a feature, actually that would be amazing.

01:16:38   This is a feature for Ricky Mondello, if they're listening,

01:16:42   who is one of the people who implements this stuff at Apple.

01:16:45   I'll tweet to Ricky or I'll mastodon post to Ricky

01:16:49   after the show, but that would be amazing

01:16:52   if Apple could actually classify those things

01:16:54   that were text messages that it knows

01:16:55   or text messages that you're acting on for two factor.

01:16:58   Maybe if you use the auto-insert,

01:17:02   it like puts it optionally, like puts it away somewhere,

01:17:05   like puts it in a two factor folder or something.

01:17:09   - Because it already does the thing

01:17:11   where it marks it as read.

01:17:12   It makes a change to the message.

01:17:15   So yeah, if you could just like get rid of it somehow,

01:17:17   that'd be great.

01:17:19   - That would be nice.

01:17:20   I love it.

01:17:21   I love that idea.

01:17:22   I will say everybody's gonna get more SMS messages

01:17:26   in the future,

01:17:27   because even though we have this authentication technology,

01:17:31   You know what SMS messages do?

01:17:33   They tie your login to a device.

01:17:36   And while we're all like,

01:17:38   "Oh, I don't need to tie my login to a device."

01:17:41   You're thinking, "Well, who cares about that?"

01:17:43   The answer is Netflix and everybody else

01:17:47   who is worried about password sharing.

01:17:50   By tying authentication to an SMS,

01:17:52   they tie it to you personally.

01:17:56   And so then if your friend is trying to log in

01:17:59   And every so often they're like,

01:18:01   "Hey, haven't seen you in a while

01:18:03   or haven't tested you in a while Netflix user,

01:18:07   give me, we just sent you a code.

01:18:11   Why don't you give me that code?"

01:18:12   And then your friend who's sharing your password,

01:18:14   your roommate from two years ago

01:18:15   who's sharing your password has to call you or text you

01:18:18   and say like, "What's the code?

01:18:20   You just got sent a code."

01:18:22   And it also means that people are less likely to share codes

01:18:25   because they're gonna start getting authenticator messages

01:18:29   for other people logging into their shared account

01:18:31   and then they're gonna have to do something about it.

01:18:33   And it's not like email you could forward

01:18:37   and two factor codes you can share,

01:18:40   but text messages you can't.

01:18:42   And so I predict that we're actually gonna get

01:18:46   way more text messages in the future

01:18:50   because as these services start cracking down

01:18:53   on password sharing,

01:18:54   'cause it is a method of preventing password sharing

01:18:57   as annoying as that is.

01:18:58   - Do you think that pass keys could be used for this?

01:19:03   - I don't know.

01:19:06   - I'm wondering, do they tie you to the device

01:19:09   like more closely? - No, I think you can share

01:19:11   pass keys. - Okay.

01:19:14   - I think you can share pass keys.

01:19:15   And this is anything that you can share easily

01:19:17   that's digital is not what Netflix wants, right?

01:19:21   They want, 'cause I have some, what was it?

01:19:23   I had some service that did that, some streaming service

01:19:27   and my daughter will occasionally be like,

01:19:28   "Can I have the two-factor code?"

01:19:30   Yeah, here it is.

01:19:32   But it's going to happen more

01:19:36   because it is a real passive aggressive way

01:19:40   of getting both sides of the password sharing

01:19:43   to realize this is a pain.

01:19:45   I have a service that does it via email

01:19:49   and there are a few that do it that way.

01:19:51   And that, here's a little tip,

01:19:52   that is great because you can set up email rules

01:19:54   to just forward it to all the people

01:19:56   share the password with. But text messages, you can't really do that and that's how they

01:20:02   get you. That's how they get you.

01:20:05   Sam asks, "Would you rather pay less for an Apple device if it meant you had to pay for

01:20:12   Apple apps such as Maps, Notes, Calendar, the Home app?"

01:20:16   Thanks for example.

01:20:19   This is a weird question.

01:20:20   It is interesting to me though.

01:20:23   I mean, I am in the Apple Plus bundle, right?

01:20:25   Apple One bundle.

01:20:26   So I'm already there.

01:20:28   I would be paying for it anyway.

01:20:29   And I am already paying full price for an Apple device.

01:20:33   So I think it's an interesting idea.

01:20:35   I think Apple will never offer anything like this

01:20:38   unless they're mandated by a government

01:20:42   because Apple feels like

01:20:46   their software is part of the product

01:20:50   and it's part of the equation is you get all that stuff

01:20:53   with your device.

01:20:55   And I worry about any Apple that would sell

01:20:57   a de-contented device and then say,

01:21:01   you gotta sign up for iCloud in order to get

01:21:03   the contents on it, otherwise too bad.

01:21:06   I don't like that as an approach.

01:21:08   And I don't, honestly, I don't think it would allow them

01:21:10   to charge significantly less either.

01:21:12   - No, I don't think, even if this was a thing

01:21:16   they had to do, and if they charge less,

01:21:19   it wouldn't be much less.

01:21:21   It wouldn't be much less.

01:21:22   This question was just intriguing to me

01:21:25   because it's like we're just entering

01:21:27   a very interesting regulatory period, I think,

01:21:32   for tech companies now,

01:21:33   maybe more than it's ever been before.

01:21:35   And I, when looking at this question,

01:21:38   was just wondering like what it would be like

01:21:42   for Apple to have to split this stuff from the system more.

01:21:46   not necessarily in charging, but the ability to have third parties tie into all of this

01:21:52   and how complicated that could make a lot of the ways that these devices work.

01:21:57   I just wonder if we're going to end up in a situation like that again because none of

01:22:02   these companies are willing to make concessions unless they're direct through court to do

01:22:06   it.

01:22:07   Tom asks, "In traffic, speed bumps are used to slow down cars.

01:22:16   Why is it that with computers, a speed bump

01:22:19   has the exact opposite meaning,

01:22:21   implying an increase in speed?

01:22:25   - Okay, first off, I want a little sidebar here.

01:22:27   In the UK, these are speed humps, aren't they?

01:22:30   Is that what they are?

01:22:31   Are they humps?

01:22:32   - Maybe, some people could call them that,

01:22:37   but equally people could call them speed bumps.

01:22:39   I don't really, I don't really,

01:22:42   I don't hear anyone saying speed humps anymore.

01:22:45   - Okay, I saw, I mean, I saw there was a sign

01:22:47   about speed humps, I remember when we were there

01:22:50   five years ago.

01:22:51   Also, I was told that they're often referred

01:22:53   to colloquially as sleeping policemen.

01:22:55   - Yes, that one less so much now,

01:22:57   but I think a sleeping policeman is also the ones

01:23:01   that are painted black and white primarily,

01:23:04   but yes, sleeping policeman is a phrase I'm familiar with.

01:23:08   - That's hilarious, right?

01:23:09   'Cause then you go over one and you're like,

01:23:10   oh, we had a sleeping policeman.

01:23:12   (laughs)

01:23:13   Oh, it's so good.

01:23:14   - The concept of a speed bump is coming to the etymology

01:23:18   of it is it's a bump up in features.

01:23:23   And it's generally a bump up in the speed of the processor.

01:23:27   And so when we say it's a speed bump,

01:23:29   what they mean is the company is bumping up the speed

01:23:32   of the internals of it.

01:23:34   And it's become shorthand in the tech world

01:23:37   for a change that is very minor,

01:23:40   that is just some internal spec changes.

01:23:43   and so it ends up being called a speed bump.

01:23:45   There have been other phrases for that over time,

01:23:50   but that's the one that I end up using.

01:23:53   But that's the story.

01:23:54   So it's not a speed bump, it's a speed bump.

01:23:59   If that, like the etymologies are totally different

01:24:02   even though they end up at the same place.

01:24:03   So that's, and it's funny, right?

01:24:05   Like you have that moment where you're like,

01:24:06   oh, they just bumped up the speed.

01:24:07   It's a speed bump, like a speed bump, but not like it.

01:24:10   And so we end up coalescing on the same phrase

01:24:13   for both, that's the story there.

01:24:15   I wish I could remember,

01:24:17   we used to call these things something else

01:24:18   and I can't remember it now.

01:24:19   It's like when I went to Mac world for Mac user,

01:24:24   at Mac user all of our screenshots were called screen dumps.

01:24:27   And so you'd be like, get the dumps.

01:24:31   Did you turn in the dumps?

01:24:32   I need the dumps.

01:24:34   And then I went to Mac world and they looked at me

01:24:35   like I was a crazy person because it's,

01:24:39   here it's screenshots.

01:24:40   We don't use those unrefined terms.

01:24:42   It's a screenshot, which is what everybody calls them now.

01:24:45   So that's fine.

01:24:47   Anyway, speed bump.

01:24:48   - Fisher-Kine Discord says we should start calling

01:24:51   them sleeping policemen.

01:24:52   - I love it.

01:24:54   I love it.

01:24:55   Let's try to remember that the next time there is one.

01:24:56   - The M3 chips got a real good sleeping policeman

01:24:59   over the M3 chip. - Sleeping policeman.

01:25:00   Yeah, this is basically a sleeping policeman update.

01:25:03   - It was just funny to me that like, I've never,

01:25:09   I've said this so many times, right?

01:25:11   Both things, speed bump, I've said them both so many times

01:25:14   and I'd never tied it together in my brain

01:25:17   that I'm saying the same phrase

01:25:19   and it means the exact opposite in those two scenarios.

01:25:23   One increases the speed, one decreases the speed.

01:25:27   And I just thought that was,

01:25:27   I thought this was a very funny question

01:25:29   and I'm sure is one of the many weird quirks

01:25:34   in the English language that we could just say these

01:25:38   and in context, you should understand them both ways.

01:25:42   If you would like to send in a question

01:25:44   for us to answer in a future episode of the show,

01:25:46   just go to upgradefeedback.com

01:25:49   and you can send in your Ask Upgrade questions there.

01:25:52   Thank you to everybody that does.

01:25:55   It was so great to have you back, Jason.

01:25:58   - It's good to be back.

01:25:59   - You can check out Jason's writing at sixcolors.com.

01:26:02   You can hear his podcasts at the incomparable.com

01:26:05   and here on Relay FM.

01:26:06   You can listen to my shows here on Relay FM as well and check out my work at cortexbrand.com.

01:26:12   We're both on Mastodon. You can find Jason on zeppelin.flights as @jasonel

01:26:17   and you can find me on mike.social as @imike.

01:26:20   You can send your feedback and questions to upgradefeedback.com.

01:26:24   Thank you to our members who support us with Upgrade Plus,

01:26:27   and thank you to FitBud and Squarespace for their support of this week's episode.

01:26:32   But most of all, thank you for listening and we'll be back next time.

01:26:36   Until then, say goodbye Jason Snow.

01:26:38   - Bye everybody.

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