451: I've Come Around to Reality


00:00:00   (upbeat music)

00:00:02   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 451.

00:00:12   Today's show is brought to you by Ladder,

00:00:15   Text Expander and Setapp.

00:00:16   My name is Mike Hurley, I'm joined by Jason Snell.

00:00:19   Hi, Jason.

00:00:20   - Hi, Mike.

00:00:21   It's good to be here.

00:00:23   I have a little more energy today, I don't know why.

00:00:25   I think it's 'cause my dog wakes me up

00:00:26   at six in the morning now.

00:00:27   So I'm more awake for Upgrade.

00:00:29   So the dog is doing a service, important service for this show to get me up early on Monday morning.

00:00:35   You know, before we get to Snow Talk this week, you know, we're starting a new week.

00:00:38   I just want to put energy out into the world that I would really love to find out the dates for the RubyDC.

00:00:43   You know?

00:00:44   At this point, I would really like that information.

00:00:48   So if anyone's been sitting there and thinking, "I'm not sure when to tell people."

00:00:52   Is this the week?

00:00:53   If you could make it this week, I would appreciate it, is what I'm saying.

00:00:59   I have a lot of empathy going on right now,

00:01:03   because of course, as one of the only people

00:01:08   who I know, especially in our business,

00:01:12   who actually lives in the Bay Area,

00:01:15   it matters so much less for me

00:01:18   than literally everybody else.

00:01:20   - Yeah, well, lucky you.

00:01:21   - My kids are no longer in public school

00:01:24   here in the Bay Area, so I'm not even aware of,

00:01:28   but it's almost always literally the last week of school.

00:01:30   There's usually a graduation conflict.

00:01:32   I mean, it's gonna be the fifth through the ninth, right?

00:01:34   Like the, right?

00:01:36   I mean, it's almost certain

00:01:38   that it'd be the fifth through the ninth.

00:01:40   - Why?

00:01:41   - I'd like to announce, hi, this is Jason Stell.

00:01:43   I'm proud to announce that WWDC is gonna be held.

00:01:46   Sorry, let me try that again.

00:01:48   This is Tim.

00:01:48   We're very excited that WWDC 2023,

00:01:53   where we're gonna have all the great stuff

00:01:55   that you love from last year, plus more great stuff

00:01:57   It's a mystery, do do do, will all be happening

00:02:00   June 5th through the 9th at Apple Park in Cupertino.

00:02:04   - Wow, thanks Tim. - Select developers

00:02:06   will be invited, will be in touch about how you can apply.

00:02:10   And we can't wait to see you all

00:02:14   whether you're here in reality

00:02:17   or whether you're here virtually.

00:02:19   Wink. - Tim sneaking it in there.

00:02:22   - Tim out. - This is a big get for us.

00:02:24   So appreciate that.

00:02:26   Thanks Tim.

00:02:27   try to do his accent, which I'm sorry about,

00:02:29   but it's Monday morning, what do you want from me?

00:02:30   - It's probably for the best.

00:02:31   I mean, I agree with you that the fifth to the ninth

00:02:34   makes the most sense, but I, you know,

00:02:36   12th to the 16th could also be it, right?

00:02:39   But I expect, yes, it would probably be fifth to the ninth,

00:02:42   but I can't go ahead and make any bookings

00:02:44   for plane tickets on a, this is what I think it's gonna be.

00:02:48   - Right, let me check, this is an important thing

00:02:50   for me to check, is let me check the school calendar.

00:02:53   Last day of school's the ninth,

00:02:54   so that would be the week, right?

00:02:56   If they're assuming that they do this all just to vex

00:02:58   people whose kids are in school,

00:03:00   including everybody who works at Apple,

00:03:03   whose kids are in school,

00:03:04   the last week of school is that week.

00:03:06   So sure, let's do WWDC that week.

00:03:09   That'll be the week.

00:03:10   So yeah, okay.

00:03:11   Well, you can take my word for it or not.

00:03:13   Don't take my word for it.

00:03:14   - Well, I'm not taking your word for it.

00:03:15   I'm taking Tim's word for it.

00:03:16   He just came and told us.

00:03:17   - Yeah.

00:03:18   - I just want it.

00:03:19   I just want the information.

00:03:20   I just want it sooner rather than later.

00:03:21   - I get it.

00:03:23   I get it.

00:03:24   - Because every day,

00:03:25   though plane tickets just get more and more expensive.

00:03:28   - I know.

00:03:29   - I have a Snell Talk question for you

00:03:31   that comes from Janice.

00:03:32   Janice wants to know, since your iPhone lives mostly

00:03:35   on your charger, Jason Snell,

00:03:37   and you mentioned that you often leave your house

00:03:39   with just the Apple Watch, could you do without an iPhone?

00:03:43   And for a tangent, what would it take?

00:03:46   - (sighs)

00:03:48   I can't because there are certain circumstances

00:03:51   when I do need it, right?

00:03:52   Like if I'm out and about,

00:03:54   'cause the Apple Watch, I guess that is the,

00:03:58   what would it take?

00:03:59   Like I can't take pictures when I have the Apple Watch.

00:04:01   I can't go into Slack and check it out with the Apple Watch

00:04:05   and check in with people.

00:04:07   It's very reactive kind of thing.

00:04:09   The Apple Watch is super minimal.

00:04:10   I will get some push notifications.

00:04:12   I can send texts and I can listen to my podcasts,

00:04:17   but all the other stuff that I do,

00:04:20   the iPhone will let me do that portably

00:04:23   in some way or another.

00:04:25   The Apple Watch really is limited.

00:04:27   So I don't think it's an interesting thought experiment,

00:04:31   but I think the answer is it would take a lot of apps

00:04:35   that currently I rely on that run on my iPhone

00:04:40   to run independently on my Apple Watch.

00:04:43   And I just don't think that that's in the cards

00:04:45   for most of these apps.

00:04:47   So, you know, like Slack, I do a lot of work in Slack,

00:04:50   And all the Slack will let you like get a notification.

00:04:53   And I don't think it'll let you reply

00:04:55   or I've had trouble with that.

00:04:57   But like what I can't do is go in and check the,

00:05:02   you know, check the emergency channel

00:05:04   and see what's going on or whatever.

00:05:05   Like I can't do that.

00:05:07   I can't send, you know, a message to,

00:05:11   like we're driving to curling and we're stuck in traffic.

00:05:14   And I can't send a message to the channel for our league

00:05:17   saying we're gonna be a little bit late.

00:05:19   I can't do that in Slack because it just doesn't work.

00:05:24   So I think that's the fundamental problem is,

00:05:28   so I can get, you know, I can lock and unlock my front door

00:05:30   and I can listen to podcasts and stuff like that.

00:05:33   And it's like enough for me to be out for an hour.

00:05:36   But if I'm actually like out and about,

00:05:39   I need more than that.

00:05:40   And, you know, certainly when we were on our trip

00:05:42   to New Zealand, like when we're in the car,

00:05:44   driving 1500 miles around or we're walking around

00:05:47   or whatever, like the phone being with me was a good thing

00:05:52   because it's like, I can take pictures, I can send texts,

00:05:55   I can send pictures to people from the places that we are,

00:05:58   which was a lot of fun.

00:05:59   Yeah, so I think it would take a lot.

00:06:02   And I think a lot of like, camera is a great example.

00:06:04   Like I don't know how there's a workable Apple Watch camera.

00:06:07   Right, I don't know how there is that.

00:06:09   I already forego when I walk the dog

00:06:11   and I just have the Apple Watch, I am foregoing pictures.

00:06:14   I was walking the dog the other day

00:06:16   and we got to a pretty spot

00:06:17   and I actually had brought my phone for that.

00:06:21   Most 'cause I had driven and I was uncomfortable.

00:06:24   I'm not uncomfortable leaving the house

00:06:26   to walk around my neighborhood,

00:06:27   but I am uncomfortable driving

00:06:29   without having my phone with me.

00:06:31   It's like a bridge too far.

00:06:33   So, and I took a picture of a beautiful view

00:06:36   from that dog walk and I thought,

00:06:38   "Well, this is something I can do with my phone

00:06:41   that I can't do without my phone."

00:06:43   So I think these are the reasons why it's unlikely,

00:06:47   even though I don't use my phone a lot,

00:06:49   if I'm in, it's mostly something we were talking about

00:06:52   before we started, I work at home, right?

00:06:55   But when I am in a context, when I am out and about,

00:06:58   I am still relying on my iPhone, just like everybody else is,

00:07:01   I'm just not out and about very often.

00:07:03   And when I'm at home, yeah, I'm not sitting on the couch,

00:07:05   scrolling on my iPhone, at that point I'll use an iPad.

00:07:09   - If you would like to send in a question

00:07:12   for us to open a future episode of the show,

00:07:15   just go to upgradefeedback.com and send us

00:07:18   in a Snow Talk question.

00:07:20   I have some follow up now.

00:07:21   So we've been talking a lot about SMS codes and stuff

00:07:24   like that, right?

00:07:25   So like the idea of two-factor codes coming in via SMS

00:07:28   and that kind of stuff.

00:07:29   Patrick wrote in to say, "You can eliminate

00:07:32   having to deal with a bunch of random phone numbers

00:07:34   from SMS codes clogging up your messages app

00:07:37   by going to Settings, Messages, Unknown and Spam,

00:07:41   and turn on the option for filter unknown senders.

00:07:45   Then when you use SMS auto-filling and stuff like that,

00:07:48   when a message comes in, you select it,

00:07:50   it will mark the message as read

00:07:52   and will tuck it away under unknown senders

00:07:54   so you'll never be bothered by it again.

00:07:56   I'm not sure why this is disabled by default, says Patrick.

00:08:00   So when you turn this setting on, I tried that out today,

00:08:03   it actually creates like a new like back button in messages,

00:08:06   which currently it says edit,

00:08:08   but then it changes to filters.

00:08:10   and then you have a set of filters,

00:08:12   like kind of like email filters,

00:08:14   you know, like inbox sent and that kind of stuff,

00:08:16   and you get all messages, known senders,

00:08:19   unknown senders, and unread messages.

00:08:21   So you get those filters that you can then

00:08:23   choose which one you want.

00:08:25   - Yep.

00:08:26   - I didn't know this was there,

00:08:27   or I'd forgotten that this was there.

00:08:29   I turned it on, but the thing I was confused about,

00:08:31   I turned it back off again,

00:08:32   for other reasons I looked in a minute.

00:08:34   The thing that I don't know,

00:08:36   because it hasn't happened to me yet,

00:08:37   is like, let's imagine that I'm living

00:08:39   in the known messages or known senders area,

00:08:42   which probably is the logical one.

00:08:44   If I get a text from someone that's an unknown sender,

00:08:49   how easily is this shown to me?

00:08:51   Like, does it still badge the messages app?

00:08:53   Like, how do I know?

00:08:54   - Yeah, that's the, I believe it is badged

00:08:57   if you have badges.

00:08:58   I believe if you tap on the notification,

00:09:00   it goes to that in the unknown senders filter,

00:09:04   which means that to get back the next time you use the app

00:09:07   to actually see your known senders,

00:09:09   I believe you have to swipe back up to that top level

00:09:12   that now exists and then go in.

00:09:14   And that is when I turned it off too.

00:09:16   'Cause I turned this on a few weeks ago, months ago,

00:09:20   as a way to possibly deal with a lot of this kind of garbage

00:09:23   that we then talked about.

00:09:24   And what I realized is it creates a level of overhead

00:09:28   and management inside messages that I found unwelcome.

00:09:32   Like I don't, I really don't wanna manage

00:09:36   message mailboxes, right?

00:09:38   I don't want that.

00:09:39   I would rather have a,

00:09:41   I'd almost rather have a toggle show hide kind of thing

00:09:45   where it's like show all or show only known

00:09:47   or something like that.

00:09:48   But instead they're using, again,

00:09:50   a perfectly valid iPhone iOS metaphor,

00:09:52   which is you go back out, it's basically like a drawer.

00:09:54   You go back out to the top and then tap into another one.

00:09:58   But I just, I found myself in a place

00:10:00   I didn't wanna be way too often.

00:10:02   So I just turned that feature off.

00:10:04   - Okay, you answered it for me then.

00:10:05   But maybe you out there didn't even know

00:10:07   this just did like me and now you might want that.

00:10:09   So that was Patrick's follow up.

00:10:11   - Yeah, maybe you try it.

00:10:12   I feel like if I were talking to somebody

00:10:14   on the messages team at Apple,

00:10:17   that would be my question for them is,

00:10:19   do you think that the perfectly valid,

00:10:22   well-worn drawer metaphor where there's this hierarchy

00:10:27   that gets added on top that is all those filters

00:10:31   is the most effective way of dealing with the idea

00:10:35   that you've got people you know and people you don't know.

00:10:38   I will give them credit.

00:10:40   Like one of the things that they've done

00:10:41   that's really great is they've added favorites

00:10:43   and I use those.

00:10:43   So I've got favorite contexts that are pinned at the top.

00:10:47   That's great.

00:10:48   And I know that it's chronological, right?

00:10:50   So you can't have like a strip of people

00:10:52   and then a line and then the unknown below it

00:10:54   because theoretically your known conversations go on,

00:10:57   you know, forever basically down there.

00:10:59   I get that this is a hard problem.

00:11:01   My reaction to the drawer thing suggests

00:11:04   that if I was talking to that theoretical person

00:11:07   who worked with messages team,

00:11:09   I would say to them, that suggests

00:11:10   that maybe there should be a different approach, right?

00:11:13   I don't know what that approach is,

00:11:14   and I don't know if there is a good different approach,

00:11:17   but what I do know is I turned that on,

00:11:20   I thought, oh, this is a good idea,

00:11:21   used it for like a day, and I turned it back off.

00:11:25   - So you remember a long time ago,

00:11:27   we spent a bunch of time talking about Ted Lasso merch,

00:11:29   that there was none, and then there was some,

00:11:32   and it wasn't that great.

00:11:33   Well, in Ted Lasso season three, Nike is now making a bunch of merchandise, t-shirts, sweatshirts,

00:11:40   and team jerseys, like actual football shirts.

00:11:44   Yes, they're in the show when they play.

00:11:47   I know that in episode one they don't play a match, right?

00:11:51   I've seen the first three.

00:11:53   Look at me, look at this guy.

00:11:54   Jason, can I tell you a tale of woe here?

00:11:57   Oh yeah, sure.

00:11:58   I also have access to this.

00:12:00   The screeners?

00:12:01   I have access to the screeners app.

00:12:02   - Yeah. - A couple of weeks ago.

00:12:03   So then I had "Ted Lasso" episode one,

00:12:05   and I thought, I'm gonna hold it for a bit.

00:12:06   I didn't watch it.

00:12:07   Then I tried to log in one day,

00:12:08   and my access had been completely removed

00:12:10   to the screen. - Me too.

00:12:11   Same, exactly. - Oh, okay.

00:12:12   - Same thing happened to me, yeah.

00:12:13   - I contacted them, and they reinstated my access,

00:12:16   but I no longer have access to "Ted Lasso."

00:12:18   All the other shows, - Oh, no!

00:12:19   - but not "Ted Lasso." - Oh, no!

00:12:21   - And I emailed them and said,

00:12:22   "Can I have access to 'Ted Lasso' again, please?"

00:12:24   And they did not respond to me.

00:12:25   So I don't know what I did, - Wow.

00:12:27   but now I'm no Ted for me.

00:12:29   - I think they lowered the boom on Ted Lasso access

00:12:31   'cause it's so high profile.

00:12:33   They came back to me and they said,

00:12:35   and this was with Apple PR helping me get in touch

00:12:38   with the people who do the screeners.

00:12:40   And they still came back to me and said,

00:12:41   okay, send me your like reasons why you need this.

00:12:46   - Oh.

00:12:47   - Yeah, and so I said,

00:12:49   well, I discussed streaming on upgrade and downstream.

00:12:51   And then I'm also the co-host of a podcast about Ted Lasso

00:12:55   and a podcast about For All Mankind.

00:12:56   And then they're like, okay, fine.

00:12:58   - 'Cause they gave me my access back, no problem.

00:13:00   They're like, oh yeah, sorry about that.

00:13:01   And they just gave me my access back.

00:13:03   And I have all my other shows in there,

00:13:04   which I have lots of shows in there,

00:13:05   which I'm very thankful for, but no Ted.

00:13:07   So no Ted for me.

00:13:09   - That's rough.

00:13:10   Well, anyway, having seen the first three episodes,

00:13:11   thumbs up, I think it's going great.

00:13:13   So people should look forward to that.

00:13:14   And they do play matches and they are in the,

00:13:16   the Nike kit is part of the,

00:13:18   they don't mention that they got a Nike kit,

00:13:20   but the Nike kit's in the show.

00:13:21   So obviously they made a deal, Warner Brothers,

00:13:24   the producers of the show,

00:13:24   made a deal with Nike to outfit this.

00:13:27   - Well, do you remember months and months and months ago

00:13:30   that Nike teased it?

00:13:32   - Yeah, yeah, oh yeah.

00:13:33   - Yeah, I think we spoke about it.

00:13:34   - Yeah, this has been rolling out for a while,

00:13:35   but now it's available.

00:13:37   You can get the Richmond jersey, actual soccer jersey,

00:13:42   and then they've also got some other merch

00:13:44   that's got the Nike swoosh and got the Richmond shield.

00:13:46   - It's gonna be high quality too.

00:13:48   - And it's in the show and they're in FIFA too,

00:13:51   which I love.

00:13:52   They're in FIFA, you can play as AFC Richmond.

00:13:54   There's a great story about how Brett Goldstein

00:13:58   played FIFA against his nephew or something.

00:14:01   As Roy Kent, and in the game, Roy Kent goes, "Ugh,"

00:14:05   at one point when he scores or something,

00:14:08   and then he turns to his nephew and goes, "Ugh,"

00:14:10   the same thing.

00:14:11   It's a highlight of his life that he did that.

00:14:13   Ted Lasso, with season three, which might be the last,

00:14:17   who knows, it's a great mystery.

00:14:19   Nobody's saying, they're all just saying these.

00:14:21   They've all been coached, right?

00:14:22   Which is like-- - This is the story.

00:14:24   It's the end of the story that we originally planned

00:14:26   on telling and I mean, I suspect that some of it is just,

00:14:30   they're being coy because the results of season three

00:14:33   will indicate what happens next

00:14:35   and they're not gonna talk about it.

00:14:37   But anyway, yeah, they've gotten their merch story together

00:14:41   now after a couple of years of trying to figure it out.

00:14:45   And so, yeah, and if people wanna hear me talk

00:14:48   about episode one, "Football's Life" is the podcast

00:14:52   over on the incomparable, it's a rotating cast.

00:14:54   So I'm not gonna do episode two, but I did episode one,

00:14:57   which I mostly liked.

00:14:59   There are a couple of parts of it that I criticized.

00:15:00   I feel like Ted Lasso takes a little time

00:15:03   to get into the vibe a little bit.

00:15:05   - So I haven't seen the first episode.

00:15:06   I'm waiting to get a couple in and then I'll start.

00:15:09   - Yeah, so anyway, but it's good to have it back.

00:15:12   And if you're, by the way, if people haven't,

00:15:14   we talk about this stuff when it gets like announced

00:15:16   that they're going to make it, and then it's like years pass.

00:15:19   I will say, if you're looking, if you like Ted Lasso

00:15:21   when you're looking for something

00:15:22   that's kind of in that vibe,

00:15:24   shrinking with Jason Segel is fantastic.

00:15:28   And one of the reasons it's got that vibe

00:15:31   is Bill Lawrence and Brett Goldstein from Ted Lasso

00:15:35   are the co-creators of that show.

00:15:37   So it's all, it's not about soccer,

00:15:40   but it is one of those kind of a bunch of people

00:15:44   hanging out and talking about their lives

00:15:46   and dealing with issues.

00:15:48   And I love that show.

00:15:50   I guess it's got one more to drop

00:15:52   before this first season is over.

00:15:53   They're already officially renewed for a second season.

00:15:55   And Harrison Ford's in it, folks.

00:15:57   Harrison Ford.

00:15:58   - And Harrison Ford is hilarious in this show.

00:16:00   - And Jessica Williams is in it

00:16:01   and has scenes with Harrison Ford

00:16:03   and it's like she was on the flophouse

00:16:04   and now she's acting with Harrison Ford.

00:16:07   How does this happen?

00:16:07   It's amazing.

00:16:08   - Yeah, so good.

00:16:10   Shrinking gives me Ted Lasso season one vibes.

00:16:13   Like the way I feel about it makes me feel good

00:16:16   and I'm so excited to watch more of it

00:16:18   and it's so refreshing and different in a way.

00:16:21   Yeah, it's a great show, super good.

00:16:23   Once again, Apple just making great television shows.

00:16:27   Who would have thought?

00:16:28   You know what I mean?

00:16:29   - I read a really good review of the "Tetris" movie too,

00:16:31   which is an Apple TV thing at the end of the month.

00:16:33   It premiered in South by Southwest.

00:16:35   And I read a really positive review of that.

00:16:38   A funny, funny positive review,

00:16:39   'cause it was by somebody who'd never heard of "Tetris."

00:16:42   How is that possible?

00:16:43   Anyway, I'm looking forward to the "Tetris."

00:16:45   The trailer looked great,

00:16:46   so I'm looking forward to the "Tetris" movie.

00:16:48   which we talked about and conflated it with the Battleship movie, which I think is hilarious.

00:16:53   "The blocks are coming down, attack the blocks!" That's not what the Tetris movie is, it's actually

00:16:58   a... looks like fictionalized to make it more exciting story of the creation of Tetris.

00:17:03   - Absolutely not Apple related, but have you seen the trailer for the Blackberry movie?

00:17:08   - I have. - It looks really good!

00:17:11   - It actually looks... it reminded me of the trailer for the Tetris movie, which is... I don't

00:17:15   think it was actually this exciting but this is exciting yeah yeah and it's got that one has uh

00:17:20   such a great um cast that i couldn't believe was in it that that it's glenn howarton from it's

00:17:28   always sunny and uh ap bio yep uh as the guy who's the ceo of of blackberry and uh yeah and jay

00:17:37   barry shell is like the co-founder guy and it's uh and with those guys in the cast i suspect that

00:17:42   it is a funny movie. But yeah, I'm looking forward to that one too.

00:17:47   Yeah, I think it's like serious but funny. But funny. Yeah, sometimes I wonder if these

00:17:52   movies are kind of going for the Big Short kind of vibe, right? Which is like, it's a

00:17:56   movie about business, but it's got a skewed angle, right? It's got a different kind of

00:18:03   angle, like The Big Short or I guess, I haven't seen The Wolf of Wall Street, but maybe like

00:18:08   that. I don't know. It's the idea of like, it's a movie about business, but, but not

00:18:12   Right, like, I don't know.

00:18:13   - You made a post on Six Carls,

00:18:17   wrote a post on Six Carls about Camo Studio 2?

00:18:21   - Yes.

00:18:22   - So this was like Camo, previously,

00:18:25   like Sherlock, but continued to camera,

00:18:27   basically did continue to camera, right?

00:18:28   - Camo was an app you ran on your iPhone,

00:18:31   and then you ran it on your Mac,

00:18:32   and you could use your iPhone as your webcam.

00:18:34   And Apple was like, that's a good idea.

00:18:37   What if we just built it in so that your Mac

00:18:39   can take over your iPhone without running an app,

00:18:41   and just make it a camera, which is bad if you're camo.

00:18:46   Not that camo didn't do a lot of stuff

00:18:48   that continuity camera doesn't do,

00:18:50   'cause as we've detailed here,

00:18:52   Apple is really reluctant to give people control

00:18:55   over their cameras, right?

00:18:56   They just want like little on/off switches.

00:18:58   They don't wanna have any other kind of like tweaks

00:19:00   to camera settings.

00:19:02   So what Camo did, Reincubate,

00:19:05   the company that makes Camo Studio,

00:19:07   they went away and made and used their code base

00:19:10   to make a new version of the app that works with any webcam,

00:19:14   including continuity camera.

00:19:18   So it still has an app, you can still run it.

00:19:20   You get more features if you run their app on the iPhone

00:19:23   versus using continuity camera,

00:19:24   but it will use continuity camera.

00:19:26   It will use the studio display camera.

00:19:30   It will use third-party webcams.

00:19:32   If you've got a webcam and you've been frustrated

00:19:35   by how lousy its settings app is, you can try Camo.

00:19:39   And it may be a much nicer solution

00:19:41   because camo has got a lot of great features,

00:19:43   including some of the stuff that I love is

00:19:46   the crop on Apple's cameras is terrible, right?

00:19:51   Like the studio display, especially like it,

00:19:54   if you don't have, sorry, center stage turned on,

00:19:58   almost said stage manager, watch it, center stage.

00:20:01   If you turn that off, it gets you the shot

00:20:03   where your sort of like head is at the bottom

00:20:04   and then there's just huge amounts of headroom above you.

00:20:06   It's like, how am I supposed to use that?

00:20:09   Well, Camo will let you zoom, control the zoom,

00:20:13   and control the crop.

00:20:14   So you can say, zoom in a little bit

00:20:16   and have it be at the bottom

00:20:17   and you can get yourself sort of like framed properly.

00:20:20   You can also like, it's got a bunch of settings

00:20:22   to like adjust the colors and adjust the brightness

00:20:24   and it works better on better cameras.

00:20:26   I mean, the studio display camera is just what it is,

00:20:28   but it will also work with continuity camera,

00:20:31   which doesn't give you those controls.

00:20:32   They even built their own version of portrait mode

00:20:36   that they claim is better and also more

00:20:40   like processor efficient than Apple's version.

00:20:42   And I can tell you in using it

00:20:44   that it actually was better at leaving things.

00:20:48   Apple's portrait mode tends to leave some things

00:20:53   right next to my head that are in the background unblurred.

00:20:58   So it looks like I've got like a little halo

00:21:01   of unblurredness around my head.

00:21:03   And then I switched to Camo's version of that.

00:21:06   and it did it right.

00:21:08   So that's interesting too.

00:21:09   So in the end, this is how,

00:21:12   this is why Sherlocking is not necessarily a thing

00:21:15   because Apple never grabs 100%.

00:21:18   It in fact provided a great opportunity for camo.

00:21:20   I know that they had to do,

00:21:21   the Re-incubate had to do a lot of work here,

00:21:23   but like they support continuity camera now.

00:21:26   So that's great.

00:21:26   It's a lot easier to use your iPhone than it used to be.

00:21:28   There are camera mounts for iPhones now,

00:21:30   which back when they made this software,

00:21:33   they did a whole blog post on their website.

00:21:35   we talked about it back in the day,

00:21:38   where they're like, we tried a whole bunch of camera,

00:21:40   iPhone mounts and they're terrible,

00:21:43   like all of them were terrible.

00:21:45   So now the existence of continuity camera,

00:21:46   boom, there are camera mounts for iPhone.

00:21:48   So that's great.

00:21:50   It's great if you've got a different webcam.

00:21:52   And I basically would say,

00:21:53   if you are somebody who uses webcams on a regular basis,

00:21:58   you should check it out and see if it's right for you.

00:22:00   It is expensive.

00:22:01   It's $80 to buy it straight out,

00:22:04   or I think it's like $40 a year.

00:22:06   So, but you could try it out and see,

00:22:10   it just adds a watermark.

00:22:11   You could actually use it like that, I think.

00:22:13   But if you are somebody who like is so frustrated

00:22:17   that you can't control what your webcam is doing,

00:22:21   this does that, this will do all of that.

00:22:24   So for me, as somebody who does, you know,

00:22:26   lots of different videos and stuff,

00:22:28   it's kind of a no brainer.

00:22:30   It's nice to have some features

00:22:32   on top of continuity cameras since Apple won't provide them.

00:22:36   - I downloaded the app today to see if it will allow me

00:22:39   to change the refresh rate, right from 60 to 50 Hertz.

00:22:42   So I wouldn't get that flickering anymore.

00:22:45   Couldn't find any settings for that.

00:22:46   - On the studio display.

00:22:47   - On the studio display.

00:22:49   And it may just be like, was I've experienced before.

00:22:51   I don't think Apple exposes that as possible.

00:22:54   - Yeah, I don't think they have the ability to grab that.

00:22:57   I will say though, the best quality setting still is

00:23:00   to run the Camo app on your phone.

00:23:03   Because when you do that, you get access

00:23:05   to like every single one of the cameras.

00:23:06   You can pick which camera.

00:23:08   It gives you the most control over it

00:23:11   because they're replacing Apple's sort of like very simple

00:23:15   camera API with an iPhone app that has access

00:23:18   to the entire camera.

00:23:21   So that's better.

00:23:21   But the problem with that is you have to unlock your phone

00:23:23   and launch the app and then put it where you need it to be.

00:23:26   And like, that was the problem.

00:23:27   That's why continuity camera is so great.

00:23:29   is like, all you have to do is say, let's use it.

00:23:32   And it turns itself on and it just works.

00:23:35   And that's pretty great.

00:23:36   Although it shows that maybe Apple should be better

00:23:39   at providing options for people who want more options.

00:23:43   Even if it's just an API and they don't build the UI,

00:23:46   let Reincubate build the UI.

00:23:48   But anyway, it's a great app.

00:23:50   It's very limited, you know, kind of people who would want it

00:23:53   I feel like if you know,

00:23:54   you know if you might want it

00:23:57   and they do let you try it out.

00:23:58   so you can try it out before paying any money and see if it helps you and helps your situation.

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00:25:50   Yeehaw!

00:25:52   Apple's open source code resources are making references to both Reality OS and Reality

00:25:58   Simulator.

00:26:00   Sure sounds like that's it.

00:26:02   Yeah.

00:26:03   Well, Reality Simulator, I guess that's some kind of development tool, right?

00:26:07   Like that that will be some simulation tool that you can run on some other hardware maybe?

00:26:13   And then potentially though, if there's a simulator like that, what does that mean for

00:26:19   like development kits and stuff like that? And like how is that going to work? Like that's

00:26:23   Yeah, but it may it may also be that the simulator is the thing that runs on your Mac and then

00:26:26   you plug in a headset and you can test your software using the headset, but it's being

00:26:32   projected from your development environment, right?

00:26:35   That could be it. Yes, that's what I would hope, right? Because previous simulators,

00:26:40   they're just pretending to be the devices, right? You open a window and it's now an iPhone,

00:26:43   open a window and it's now an iPad, right?

00:26:45   Like that's the Xcode simulator as such.

00:26:48   But yeah, I hope that you're right,

00:26:50   that it's related to some kind of actual

00:26:52   put it on your head and do something with it kind of thing.

00:26:56   Reality OS, I prefer this to XR OS,

00:27:00   which is one of the other rumors.

00:27:03   And I was also thinking that like obviously

00:27:04   we've heard rumor for a while that Apple Reality

00:27:08   or Reality Pro is probably gonna be the product name.

00:27:11   - Yeah.

00:27:11   - And that would tie in, right?

00:27:12   because we have iPad OS, Mac OS, watch OS.

00:27:16   I had this thought yesterday

00:27:17   that they should rename it iPhone OS again,

00:27:19   like they should actually do that,

00:27:21   but it's too late now.

00:27:22   'Cause it's now iOS would be the odd one out, right?

00:27:25   Because everything else is named after the platform

00:27:28   that it runs on.

00:27:29   - Just iPhone, could take it back to iPhone OS maybe,

00:27:32   I don't know.

00:27:33   - Yeah.

00:27:34   - I don't know, but it's fine.

00:27:34   I think reality is a good,

00:27:38   like I've come to terms with it.

00:27:40   I mean, I never thought it was terrible, I don't think,

00:27:41   but like I've come to terms with it that like Apple,

00:27:44   Apple reality and Apple reality pro and reality OS

00:27:47   and like going all in on that as a brand name,

00:27:51   I think is fine.

00:27:52   I think that's,

00:27:53   'cause in the end,

00:27:55   Apple's entire marketing machine

00:28:00   and their product development machine

00:28:03   and their retail machine,

00:28:05   like all of the power of Apple

00:28:07   means that as long as the name is fine,

00:28:10   they will be able to define it.

00:28:12   So like Apple Watch, it's like, it's a generic name.

00:28:14   It's like, yeah, and yet Apple Watch.

00:28:16   And people are like, oh, iPad, that's a silly name.

00:28:19   I was like, yeah, iPad, everybody gets it.

00:28:21   Everybody knows what it is.

00:28:22   So I still laugh when there's like a movie or TV show

00:28:25   and somebody says, you know,

00:28:28   he was holding an iPad or get your iPad.

00:28:30   I'm like, okay, that's, I mean, it's, it makes,

00:28:33   it actually is less jarring than get your tablet, right?

00:28:37   Which is like, nobody does that.

00:28:39   So I don't know, I mean, it's generic,

00:28:42   but I think that as long as the product,

00:28:44   the product's gonna work or not,

00:28:47   and it's not gonna have anything to do with the name.

00:28:49   And if the product works, whatever degree the product works,

00:28:51   the name will go along with it and we'll represent it.

00:28:54   It'll be fine.

00:28:56   - Yeah, yeah, and I think I've come around to reality now.

00:28:59   I think that that's a funny phrase.

00:29:00   - Finally, we've been trying to get you

00:29:02   to come around to reality.

00:29:03   - Yeah, now as I say that, I'm like, oh, here we go again.

00:29:06   - I know, right?

00:29:07   Right now we've got this whole other thing

00:29:09   that we're gonna have to get used to.

00:29:11   First we need to make all the jokes

00:29:12   and then we'll need to find some way

00:29:13   of actually saying these things out loud.

00:29:16   Like how we had to deal with Macs chips.

00:29:19   - Ah yes. - You know, like M2 Macs chips.

00:29:21   Just gotten used to that over time

00:29:23   because M2 Macs Macs is just like,

00:29:26   you just can't, doesn't make any sense.

00:29:28   Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, well.

00:29:30   Anytime now, right?

00:29:31   It's gonna be anytime now.

00:29:33   We'll maybe start finding out some of this stuff.

00:29:35   Mark Gurman is reporting that Apple is currently on a cost cutting push in order to prevent

00:29:41   layoffs at the company.

00:29:43   So as Mark was talking about in his newsletter, clearly Apple is in a better position than

00:29:48   some of its tech rivals.

00:29:50   But the economy is causing some trouble for the company like every company.

00:29:53   So they are pursuing measures to weather this.

00:29:56   Like for example, they are going to be delaying bonuses.

00:29:59   So a lot of bonuses that Apple apparently paid out twice a year, but Apple is going

00:30:03   to be delaying the first one of those payments and keeping all the payments until October.

00:30:08   So the money is not going to change, but just when you get it is going to change. This is

00:30:12   apparently so Apple keeps a little more cash on hand and then they'll deal with it later

00:30:16   on. They are prioritising their research and development budgets. For example, the rumoured

00:30:21   HomePod with a screen has been pushed back in their timelines. Mark Gurman is now saying

00:30:26   it will be 2024 at the earliest for this product, which I know we knew that was the case anyway,

00:30:32   my expectation is like, that probably means it's closer to the end than the start of the

00:30:37   year, right?

00:30:38   - Right, it's all, it also, he may know that it was planned for this year and got pushed

00:30:42   back or something like that, but by the time we know that it exists, it's already being

00:30:46   talked about in a next year context, so that, that pushback already happened, but you know,

00:30:50   we don't know.

00:30:51   - Uh, there's gonna be, um, stricter approvals on budget increases and travel, uh, hiring

00:30:57   Freezers, people that have left and there are roles open, they're going to be keeping

00:31:02   those roles open. And a quote from the article I want to read in full, "Managers have become

00:31:06   as strict as ever about office attendance," so like coming into work three days a week,

00:31:11   and some workers believe this is a harbinger to the company firing employees who don't

00:31:16   meet the requirement. So I just thought that was intriguing. That was intriguing to me.

00:31:20   And then also again, it's like, who's given that information that feels like, you know,

00:31:24   this is like people were worried about that kind of thing.

00:31:27   - Right, now, so here's the funny thing.

00:31:29   As Mark Gurman makes clear,

00:31:31   and I thought that this was a really nice part

00:31:32   of his newsletter,

00:31:34   Apple has an enormous amount of cash on hand.

00:31:36   Apple can weather any storm, right?

00:31:38   Apple can weather almost any storm,

00:31:39   maybe not like complete break with China, right?

00:31:42   We talked about that.

00:31:42   But basically, Apple can weather an economic storm like this.

00:31:45   They really can't.

00:31:47   So on one level, I think it's admirable

00:31:51   that Apple is trying very hard not to lay off people.

00:31:56   and is trying, I looked at this too and I thought,

00:32:00   you know, Mark Gurman's report here

00:32:02   is actually serving Apple.

00:32:04   It serves Apple for this to get out there

00:32:06   because here's the truth people,

00:32:09   this is all about demonstrating to your shareholders

00:32:13   that you're taking the economy seriously.

00:32:16   In the case of some companies, laying off a lot of people

00:32:19   is about realizing that you are in trouble

00:32:22   and you've hired too many people.

00:32:23   But that's not the case in Apple's case, right?

00:32:26   Apple has not gone on a hiring spree.

00:32:28   Apple has grown, but like Apple has not done

00:32:30   what its peers in the tech industry have done.

00:32:33   Apple is enormously profitable,

00:32:35   and Apple has a huge amount of cash on hand.

00:32:37   So the truth is, Apple doesn't need to do

00:32:39   any of these things that it's done.

00:32:41   It's doing it to demonstrate to the community at large

00:32:46   and to its investors in particular,

00:32:48   that it's financially responsible

00:32:50   and it's taking things seriously.

00:32:53   but let's be clear, like Apple's got billions of dollars

00:32:58   in cash.

00:33:00   Apple is supposedly the company

00:33:03   that invests through a downturn, right?

00:33:06   So it's hard for me not to look at this

00:33:09   and sort of say this is a, on the one hand,

00:33:14   a cynical demonstration of having to,

00:33:18   like times are tough and we're taking it seriously

00:33:22   so that people know that they're doing that,

00:33:24   when they could just keep going the way they have been.

00:33:28   Now there's a couple of things here, right?

00:33:30   One is downturns are a great time to make changes

00:33:34   that you want to make and use it as an excuse.

00:33:37   So that's some of it, right?

00:33:39   So tightening the screws on people's office attendance

00:33:42   and not replacing people in, you know,

00:33:46   using attrition to cut the size of groups

00:33:48   that you actually didn't think needed to be that size.

00:33:50   Like you can use it as an excuse, right?

00:33:52   I get that.

00:33:53   And then maybe your HR people come to you and say,

00:33:55   "Why are we paying some groups out twice with bonuses

00:33:58   and other groups out once with bonuses?"

00:34:00   And they're using this as a reason to like make that

00:34:03   consistent across the company with the single bonuses

00:34:06   under the guise of it being about the economy.

00:34:09   So forgive me, but I need,

00:34:12   for puncturing this story a little bit,

00:34:14   but I think Mark Gurman did it too.

00:34:15   Like they don't need to do any of this.

00:34:16   They literally don't need to do any of this.

00:34:18   They're doing it to show that they are responsible, basically.

00:34:22   And if they start laying people off,

00:34:24   then it's even more offensive, right?

00:34:25   But I'm gonna give them credit.

00:34:27   Apple, it's not just that Apple is in this position

00:34:29   and it's not just that Apple has the money.

00:34:32   I think that this shows that they don't wanna lay people off.

00:34:37   They don't wanna lay people off.

00:34:38   And they don't think they have to.

00:34:40   Apple thinks it can get away

00:34:41   with demonstrating its financial prudence

00:34:44   without doing a huge number of layoffs.

00:34:48   That's great, but I would say at the same time,

00:34:50   thousands of people just got laid off in the tech industry.

00:34:54   At some point, Apple should start hiring them, right?

00:34:57   - Yeah, but they are though, right?

00:34:58   - And they are, they're not doing a hiring freeze, right?

00:35:01   Or they have had hiring freezes in some places,

00:35:03   but like not in other places, right?

00:35:06   And so that's part of this story too.

00:35:08   So anyway, I just wanted to say that,

00:35:10   that like this is better than their peers,

00:35:12   but they didn't, you know,

00:35:14   do they really need to do all of this?

00:35:16   Of course not, of course they don't.

00:35:17   They're doing this to demonstrate their fiscal prudence

00:35:22   and Wall Street will appreciate it, presumably.

00:35:26   - To me, I find this is a hard thing to get mad about.

00:35:28   Everyone on our live chat right now is really mad

00:35:31   at Apple for doing this,

00:35:32   but all of these things we've just spoken about,

00:35:35   they don't really affect people.

00:35:37   These are things that, delaying bonuses,

00:35:39   we still get to get the bonus.

00:35:40   And also, it's not great to rely on bonuses, right?

00:35:43   You shouldn't rely on bonuses, they're bonuses, right?

00:35:46   Prioritizing R&D budgets.

00:35:48   If they're moving products back,

00:35:49   maybe they think like, oh, these are like products

00:35:51   we don't think will sell very well right now

00:35:53   because of the economy.

00:35:54   So we'll move them.

00:35:55   - Like I said, prioritizing things often is

00:35:58   under the guise of, you know, in this economy,

00:36:01   but it's actually like,

00:36:02   we can afford to push that product later.

00:36:04   - Every company in tech is laying people off.

00:36:06   They could lay people off now if they want to,

00:36:08   but they're not.

00:36:08   And I think that that's like,

00:36:09   that's the ultimate important thing here.

00:36:11   Everything else here is just like,

00:36:13   it's window dressing, you know?

00:36:15   I don't think you can say bonuses are just bonuses

00:36:18   because the fact is bonuses are also a competitive tool

00:36:20   that's used for employee retention

00:36:22   and also to lure people to a company from another company.

00:36:25   So bonuses are part of that story.

00:36:27   - Right, they're still gonna get them though.

00:36:28   It's still in the package.

00:36:30   - But you're absolutely right.

00:36:31   I just wanted to say, you're like,

00:36:31   "Well, bonuses are bonuses.

00:36:32   "It's a bonus, not everybody gets the bonus."

00:36:34   I get that, but they're not cutting the bonuses.

00:36:37   They're delaying the bonuses.

00:36:38   And they're not even bringing everybody back

00:36:41   into the office five days a week.

00:36:42   They're just leaning on the people

00:36:44   who are not in the office three days a week.

00:36:47   - And that's enforcing the previous rule

00:36:49   they already made, right?

00:36:51   - So it's all about techniques and tools.

00:36:52   And again, again, a lot of this, I suspect,

00:36:56   is the pretense of this allows us to do some stuff

00:36:59   we wanna do and point at the economy

00:37:01   and has the added benefit of allowing us to demonstrate

00:37:04   to the outside world that we're taking this very seriously,

00:37:06   even if we're not laying thousands of people off,

00:37:09   which because that's a greater offense, right?

00:37:11   The greater offense is not needing

00:37:12   to have a thousand people lose their jobs,

00:37:14   but doing it so that just as a demonstration to Wall Street

00:37:17   that you're a responsible company,

00:37:19   that's far more offensive.

00:37:20   And I'm gonna give Apple's management huge credit here.

00:37:23   It's like, they seem to be trying everything

00:37:26   to look responsible while not cutting jobs.

00:37:29   And that's good.

00:37:30   Like that's really good.

00:37:32   But I can't let it go without pointing out

00:37:34   as Mark Gurman did, they got a lot of cash.

00:37:37   They got a lot of profits.

00:37:38   They're doing fine.

00:37:40   And this is more about making a demonstration

00:37:43   of prudence and fiscal responsibility

00:37:46   than it is something that they actually need to do.

00:37:48   - Yeah, and it's like, and you should,

00:37:50   and like, no one knows what's gonna happen, right?

00:37:52   Yes, they have all the money in the world,

00:37:54   but they can't just spend it all forever, right?

00:37:55   Like, that they, you know, if they're just like,

00:37:57   "Hey, no, it's all fine, nothing's wrong."

00:38:00   But if the, like, sales are down because of the,

00:38:03   you know, these are just things you have to prepare for.

00:38:05   And I think, like, looking at this list,

00:38:07   at least what Mark Gurman is talking about,

00:38:09   All of these things feel superfluous

00:38:14   and or just like moving around deck chairs.

00:38:17   - Like I said, I think it is a demonstration

00:38:21   of fiscal prudence and I think that Mark Gurman reporting

00:38:23   about it in Bloomberg is part of the strategy.

00:38:26   I don't know about if he got this from Apple

00:38:29   sort of like an unauthorized way or not,

00:38:31   but Apple can't be sad that Bloomberg,

00:38:34   a business focused website that is read by lots

00:38:38   lots of investors is doing a detailed report about all the ways that Apple is being fiscally

00:38:45   prudent. No, they're not laying people off, but boy, they're doing a lot of stuff. So

00:38:48   it's okay. They're aware of it. They're on it. And that's what they want. That's the

00:38:52   message that Apple wants out there in the investor community is we're taking it seriously.

00:38:57   Even if secretly behind the scenes, they're like, "Oh yeah, that guy got laid off by Google.

00:39:04   make an offer, right? Like, that stuff may totally be happening behind the scenes at

00:39:09   the key levels, but they need to show this. So it's, yeah, I just wanted to say, it's

00:39:15   for show. They are doing it, it's real, it is for show, and they could be doing a lot

00:39:19   worse than they are, and that's good that people aren't losing their jobs at this point,

00:39:24   although I am a little worried about the, this is giving them a tool to basically say,

00:39:30   need to be in the office three days a week or you're out. But that was, you know, that's been

00:39:35   their policy for a while now. It's interesting that they've been kind of letting it slide and

00:39:40   this is an, again, an opportunity for them to use this as a way to not let it slide.

00:39:44   - Yeah. But I think that that was probably in play anyway, right? Like...

00:39:48   - Sure. Like I said, you know, sometimes it... Take it from somebody who used to have a

00:39:54   senior vice president title and have like, I don't know how many, 60, 70 people reporting to me.

00:39:59   Like sometimes you just need an excuse, right?

00:40:04   Sometimes it's that simple.

00:40:06   It's like they'll come to you and they'll say,

00:40:09   "Well, there's a downturn and we're gonna have a little,

00:40:12   we're gonna have some budget cuts,

00:40:14   but now's the chance," right?

00:40:16   To be like, "Now's the chance to get rid of that person

00:40:18   who's a problem on your staff.

00:40:20   Now's the chance to get rid of this policy

00:40:22   that I don't like."

00:40:23   It's stuff like that, that absolutely happens.

00:40:26   - It's business, baby.

00:40:28   - Oh, Skyler in the Discord saying,

00:40:30   "Oh, big man, Jason with a..."

00:40:31   Look, I hated that job.

00:40:33   (laughs)

00:40:36   It was a miserable job and then I quit.

00:40:38   - It was still a job you had though.

00:40:40   - And the senior vice president made me laugh so much.

00:40:42   I laugh when they made me vice president

00:40:44   and editorial director or something like that.

00:40:46   That was unnecessary.

00:40:47   And then they made me senior vice president

00:40:48   and editorial director and I'm like,

00:40:49   "This is doubly unnecessary."

00:40:52   But the relevant thing is that I was in a company

00:40:55   big enough to have a lot of reports

00:40:56   and also have to talk to the CEOs and the money people.

00:41:01   And that is a, I'll tell you as an editor,

00:41:05   as a content person, well, that's a different world, right?

00:41:08   Like it's just a totally different world.

00:41:10   And I imagine the same is true with a company like Apple,

00:41:12   where like you're a developer

00:41:14   or even like a product manager, like there's that.

00:41:17   And then there's the like money people who are up there

00:41:21   and they've got their budgets

00:41:22   and they're looking at the whole thing

00:41:24   and they speak a different language.

00:41:27   And that's business, right?

00:41:29   That's the people who are wearing the business hats.

00:41:32   And they're the ones who come to you and go,

00:41:33   (clears throat)

00:41:34   how about we change your bonus structure for your group?

00:41:39   And you're like, okay, 'cause what are you gonna do?

00:41:44   - And you know, like something like this

00:41:45   is very different to what Meta's doing,

00:41:50   where Meta's deciding they're just gonna lay off people

00:41:52   for efficiency's sake now.

00:41:55   - Yes, yeah, absolutely.

00:41:56   - Very different.

00:41:57   - It's a huge contrast.

00:41:58   I think that's why I think this story is so fascinating

00:42:00   and why I've been talking about it so much here

00:42:03   is that it's both of these things.

00:42:06   It's the duality of it, right?

00:42:07   It is simultaneously Apple making a bunch of gestures

00:42:10   of things that they probably didn't need to do,

00:42:12   but they're doing 'cause they need to show

00:42:14   that they're doing something.

00:42:15   But it's also Apple not doing what Meta and Google

00:42:21   and Microsoft have done, which is have hundreds

00:42:26   or thousands of people losing their jobs.

00:42:27   Did Meta just do a second wave?

00:42:30   - Yeah, another 10,000 people

00:42:32   because they think it would make the company

00:42:33   be more efficient.

00:42:34   - Yeah, so that's what Apple's not doing.

00:42:37   And I think that that's also why Apple feels the need

00:42:41   to demonstrate that it's doing things, right?

00:42:44   Is because otherwise you risk having your shareholders

00:42:48   Wall Street in general saying Apple is irresponsible, Apple is spending too much money. And when

00:42:52   you're spending a lot of money on R&D projects like VR and a car, having a reputation for

00:43:00   being responsible helps you say, yes, we know that budget is huge, but we're a very responsible

00:43:04   company. And that is important. It actually is because at the end of the day, Wall Street

00:43:11   and the investors, the shareholders do matter.

00:43:15   They do report to them.

00:43:17   And Apple has shown over the last few years,

00:43:20   and they just had their annual shareholders meeting

00:43:23   and everything got approved, right?

00:43:24   Like Apple has shown they've actually gotten really good

00:43:27   at keeping Wall Street happy

00:43:29   and keeping their shareholders happy.

00:43:31   And stuff like this is a part of that.

00:43:33   - Korean industry outlet, the ILAC,

00:43:37   is citing their sources to suggest

00:43:39   that the 2024 iPad Pro models feature OLED screens

00:43:43   and could see a large price increase because of it.

00:43:46   They are expecting starting prices of $1,500 and $1,800

00:43:51   for the 11-inch and 12.9-inch iPad Pro models.

00:43:56   For context, they are currently 799 and 1099

00:44:00   for the 11 and the 12.9.

00:44:03   Ross Young, industry analyst of displays,

00:44:07   currently is also expecting price increases because of Apple's requirements for quality.

00:44:13   Now, I also want to read a quote from the MacRumors article. I got this from, it says

00:44:18   Samsung is set to invest in 8th generation OLED production lines, which should theoretically

00:44:23   result in lower costing panels, but they are already being earmarked for Apple's future

00:44:28   OLED MacBooks, which are expected to debut in 2024.

00:44:31   Now, so what I'll say is, with all of that in mind,

00:44:35   the expectation here, I think, seems pretty clear

00:44:38   that the iPad Pro will become more expensive

00:44:42   once it gets an OLED screen.

00:44:44   Do I think it will jump from 799 to 1500?

00:44:48   I don't, but I imagine it will get closer to it,

00:44:51   and I think that's real rough.

00:44:54   - Yeah, yeah, I'm skeptical of these numbers, right?

00:44:58   I am because those are enormous price disparities

00:45:02   from a company that really tries to not do that.

00:45:05   I mean, we talk about how Apple's stuff is expensive

00:45:07   and it absolutely is expensive, but there are limits, right?

00:45:12   So I'm gonna be skeptical of that.

00:45:15   Like doubling, almost doubling the price of a product

00:45:18   is wild, right?

00:45:19   So there's that.

00:45:20   I also have to ask the question,

00:45:24   I know we're gonna talk about this later too,

00:45:25   which is like, who, even people who love their iPad Pro,

00:45:30   and I am one of them, who can find value

00:45:36   in a, certainly in a 1500 or $1,800 iPad Pro.

00:45:42   Who is that?

00:45:43   Who is that who is willing to pay $700 more

00:45:46   for an OLED screen, especially in the larger one

00:45:49   that already has the good, if not great,

00:45:52   mini LED backlit screen?

00:45:54   very, very good screen.

00:45:57   Like who is that?

00:45:59   And so one, that makes me think

00:46:02   these prices are probably too high

00:46:04   because I don't know if it's a viable product there.

00:46:08   And two, like what is that value proposition?

00:46:13   Now, is this a brand new next generation iPad Pro

00:46:15   that has a whole bunch of other features

00:46:17   of which we're not aware

00:46:18   that are being bundled into whatever this thing is?

00:46:22   because it's been a while,

00:46:25   we've complained about it a lot.

00:46:26   It's been since 2018 really,

00:46:28   that we've been on the same set of models.

00:46:30   They just update the processor,

00:46:33   but like it's there,

00:46:34   and they've updated the display,

00:46:35   but like it hasn't,

00:46:36   it doesn't look any different,

00:46:37   and it uses the same accessories.

00:46:39   So are they rethinking the iPad Pro in general?

00:46:43   And if so, what is that?

00:46:44   And we don't know that part of it,

00:46:46   but I will say that my,

00:46:48   I'm not very optimistic.

00:46:50   Like I hope they're really rethinking it

00:46:53   because I'm kind of as perverse as this sounds almost.

00:46:57   I kind of, I would love to see what Apple thinks

00:47:00   an iPad Pro that's worth $1,500 does, right?

00:47:04   I would love to see what that is.

00:47:05   - You know what, for curiosity's sake, I agree with you.

00:47:09   - Right, like what would that be?

00:47:10   That would be, it's worth more than a MacBook Air by a lot.

00:47:14   Like right now they cost sort of what the MacBook Air costs

00:47:17   but like more than the MacBook Air,

00:47:19   This thing, so it's really, really, and again, OLED, yes,

00:47:23   but like, are people, how many people are gonna pay?

00:47:26   People will, but like, how many people are gonna pay

00:47:28   for a 1500 or 1800, or even a little less than that,

00:47:31   movie player OLED screen?

00:47:33   Like, some people, but I'm skeptical

00:47:35   about the added value there.

00:47:38   Or I don't know what else goes in there.

00:47:40   This is my question, right?

00:47:42   Is what value gets added into the iPad Pro

00:47:46   for it to bear even higher prices than it already has.

00:47:49   'Cause already it gets knocked for being kind of,

00:47:53   less capable than the MacBook Air for using the same parts

00:47:56   and for roughly the same price.

00:47:58   So what happens at least for the larger one?

00:48:01   So what value is there if you increase it,

00:48:05   if you ratchet it up even more, it's a little bit,

00:48:08   I don't know, it's a little bit baffling for me,

00:48:09   but yeah, I would love to see it, right?

00:48:12   Like, I mean, if somebody came to me and said,

00:48:15   "Hi, I'm at Apple and I'd like to have to come in

00:48:20   for a briefing."

00:48:21   And I go to the briefing and they say,

00:48:23   "We're doing a new iPad Pro and it's gonna cost $1,800."

00:48:26   What I'm gonna say is, "Wow, what makes it worth that?"

00:48:31   And I will get into my bag and I will pull out the popcorn

00:48:35   that I bring with me and I will just be like,

00:48:38   "Lay it on me, I would love to hear this story."

00:48:40   Because what they have now, I mean,

00:48:44   I'm not entirely convinced that what they have now

00:48:46   really bears the prices that they're currently charging

00:48:48   for the iPad Pro, but I certainly don't feel

00:48:51   that what they've got now could bear more

00:48:55   given what it's capable of

00:48:56   and given what other iPads there are.

00:48:58   So yeah, expression of skepticism here for this,

00:49:02   but I don't doubt that the OLED display

00:49:05   would make them cost more.

00:49:06   I'm just, I'm wondering what that price is

00:49:08   and I'm wondering what value it offers beyond my screen.

00:49:10   - If they are beyond 1500 or 1800,

00:49:13   we don't believe that from this report, like it's whatever.

00:49:16   But I think it does indicate these two things together,

00:49:20   both what the ELEC are talking about,

00:49:22   what Ross Young are talking about,

00:49:23   indicate to me that the price will increase.

00:49:25   Like it won't just be, here's the thing.

00:49:27   It's like, that's the thing that we're talking about here.

00:49:29   - Yeah, maybe it's 9.99 and 12.99,

00:49:33   or 9.99 and 11.99.

00:49:35   Like having the low end model go up to the small model,

00:49:38   go up to 9.99,

00:49:41   That I believe more than 1500, 1499, right?

00:49:45   That seems too much to me by a lot.

00:49:49   - But just to put it in perspective,

00:49:51   when the iPhone 10 was the first OLED phone,

00:49:56   it was $300 more expensive than the iPhone 8,

00:50:01   which is percentage wise,

00:50:04   not that dissimilar from these price increases.

00:50:07   And I know it was more than just the OLED screen,

00:50:10   But I think everyone agreed the OLED screen

00:50:12   was the big price difference.

00:50:15   - Right, but it also did face ID, right?

00:50:18   It's a biometric authentication through face ID.

00:50:20   That was like a huge change.

00:50:21   - Loads of things that it did, right?

00:50:23   Loads of things that are different, but.

00:50:24   - And that's where I come back and I say,

00:50:27   what else is in this thing to bear the price increase,

00:50:29   whatever it is.

00:50:30   'Cause even if, here's the funny thing,

00:50:33   even if it's the OLED screen that is really the reason

00:50:36   you have to raise the price,

00:50:38   I'm not convinced that telling people,

00:50:41   well, yeah, I mean, yeah, it's $800 more, $700 more,

00:50:44   but OLED screen is enough, right?

00:50:47   There needs to be a bigger story.

00:50:48   There needs to be more stuff.

00:50:49   What is the next generation of the platform?

00:50:52   How is it differentiated further

00:50:54   from your very nice iPad Air?

00:50:56   - 'Cause then you say like, realistically,

00:50:58   realistically, how much different is the OLED

00:51:01   to the mini LED?

00:51:02   Like, I don't think for most people

00:51:04   it's that much of a difference.

00:51:06   It's like, oh, it doesn't bloom.

00:51:07   - Great.

00:51:08   - No one sees this, right?

00:51:09   Like this is a thing that people that know

00:51:11   what they're looking for get bothered by that.

00:51:14   But realistically, people aren't bothered by that.

00:51:17   So like that is not enough.

00:51:19   And we're gonna get to more of that enough.

00:51:21   - And when I say who's gonna pay,

00:51:25   who's gonna see the value proposition,

00:51:26   in our Discord, Catherine said,

00:51:28   a lot of designers and illustrators here are like,

00:51:30   shut up and take my money.

00:51:31   Absolutely, but I guess my point is,

00:51:33   look, Apple differentiating the iPad Pro

00:51:37   up above the air is something we've talked about a lot.

00:51:40   It's actually part of the confusion

00:51:42   of the iPad line right now is like,

00:51:43   they're not that different.

00:51:44   They're a little different, but they're not that different.

00:51:46   So Apple really differentiating them

00:51:48   on one level makes sense.

00:51:51   And it's not that there won't be markets

00:51:53   for an OLED iPad Pro, right?

00:51:56   Like Catherine says, there will be people who are like,

00:51:59   this is a great design product.

00:52:01   I want it amazing, like great.

00:52:04   The challenge is, are there enough people

00:52:07   willing to pay whatever that price is that they set

00:52:11   in order to make that product make sense?

00:52:14   Because you want a high end products

00:52:15   are never gonna sell as well as the low end products.

00:52:18   I get it, but they do need to sell, right?

00:52:21   They're not just there for fun.

00:52:22   They do need to sell.

00:52:23   And that means they need to be at a price

00:52:25   with value inside the product

00:52:28   that makes it worth people saying,

00:52:30   "Yes, it's worth the price for me to get it."

00:52:32   and that's the challenge that you have with the iPad Pro.

00:52:35   It's like, what else are you gonna do to differentiate it?

00:52:37   Because OLED may not be enough.

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00:54:45   So what does the iPad need? Well funnily enough, podcaster and writer Jason Snell wrote an

00:54:53   applauded article I would say. I've been seeing this popping up all over the place.

00:54:57   By some, not by others.

00:54:59   Well okay sure, sure. I will start with a quote from this Macworld piece. "Over the

00:55:05   last few years it started to feel like both the Mac and the iPad are increasingly limited

00:55:09   by an artificial barrier that Apple has placed between them."

00:55:13   So with the context of the idea

00:55:15   that Apple may be starting to charge more money

00:55:17   for the iPad, I think it's important for us to look at,

00:55:20   well, what do we want from that then?

00:55:23   If that's the case.

00:55:24   - Where is that value?

00:55:25   Who is using it?

00:55:26   And I've been thinking about this for a while.

00:55:30   I actually had an outline for a much longer story about it.

00:55:32   I dare I say Federico Vittucci kind of length story.

00:55:35   And I just couldn't crack it.

00:55:37   I couldn't figure it out.

00:55:38   And so I essentially wrote part of that story

00:55:42   in this Mac world piece.

00:55:43   And there's one paragraph in it that's literally

00:55:46   is supposed to be a whole other story that we'll get to,

00:55:49   or, you know, I'll get to it or I won't, we'll see.

00:55:51   And I know we've talked about this subject here a little bit,

00:55:53   but like, I wanted to get it down,

00:55:55   'cause I feel like as time goes on,

00:55:57   I am increasingly uneasy about the path of the iPad

00:56:01   and the Mac and the fact that the,

00:56:05   there are rules inside Apple that seem, you know,

00:56:08   also I should say that rumor of a touchscreen Mac

00:56:10   also set this off, 'cause it's like,

00:56:11   well, wait a second, that breaks one of the rules.

00:56:13   And I think that's good.

00:56:14   And I think it'll be interesting to see

00:56:15   where they go with it.

00:56:16   But like the iPad is not allowed to do certain things

00:56:21   and the Mac is not allowed to do certain things.

00:56:23   And it feels like the rules are really,

00:56:25   we gotta keep those apart

00:56:27   because that's what separates the Mac and the iPad.

00:56:30   And I don't know how it's gonna go,

00:56:33   but it feels like the way forward should probably be

00:56:38   that the Mac and the iPad should be able to do

00:56:40   whatever they need to do, regardless of those rules.

00:56:44   And that rule, whether it's an unwritten rule

00:56:46   or it's actually, you know, stated inside Apple,

00:56:49   that neither the twain shall meet,

00:56:52   leads you down this path that's like,

00:56:54   I'd say antithetical to the Steve Jobs kind of ethos

00:56:57   of you be your own replacement kind of thing.

00:57:00   And it's more like, no, no, no, let's protect them both.

00:57:03   I don't know why we, you know,

00:57:05   I don't know why we ended up here.

00:57:06   I have some suspicions that the Mac was out of favor

00:57:08   within Apple for a while and it was just gonna be

00:57:11   kind of put off on an ice flow and be the legacy product.

00:57:14   And that the iPad was viewed as the future

00:57:16   of desktop platforms, future of computers is the iPad.

00:57:19   Right, they did the marketing.

00:57:20   It felt for a long time, like Apple is like the future,

00:57:24   we're reinventing what a computer is.

00:57:27   And there have been moments where I felt that

00:57:28   like when the cursor support came out in early 2020.

00:57:32   It's like, oh, look, they took what the Mac did

00:57:34   and they kind of did a modern spin on it.

00:57:37   and they improved it in a bunch of ways.

00:57:39   And that was really exciting.

00:57:41   But mostly over the last few years,

00:57:44   what it feels like is the iPad has gotten features

00:57:46   that are not as good as the Mac.

00:57:48   They're like a light version of a feature that the Mac has.

00:57:53   And it's made me increasingly uneasy

00:57:56   that Apple no longer really believes

00:57:59   that the iPad is the future of computing,

00:58:01   but that the iPad is sort of a limited version of computing.

00:58:06   And that if you want the full version,

00:58:08   then you get a Mac instead.

00:58:10   Whether it's files, which again is much more capable

00:58:13   than it used to be, but it's also still not

00:58:15   as capable as the Finder,

00:58:16   whether it's something like Stage Manager,

00:58:17   which allows you to have windows,

00:58:19   but not move them where you want them to go.

00:58:21   And I had this thought, and it's one line

00:58:25   in that piece in Mac world, but I had this thought,

00:58:27   but it stuck with me.

00:58:28   And I wanna expand on it at some point

00:58:30   in a written article, but the thought was,

00:58:34   maybe the iPad Pro was a mistake.

00:58:37   And I say that because Apple has invested

00:58:39   a lot of time and energy into pushing the iPad OS up

00:58:44   and adding these features that are kind of Mac-like,

00:58:48   but not quite.

00:58:49   And the only people who seem to want them

00:58:52   are the power users of the iPad.

00:58:54   But in the end, I'm not sure anybody is satisfied, right?

00:58:59   Like I think the power users,

00:59:00   at least the ones that I talked to,

00:59:02   and I am sort of one of those two,

00:59:04   feel like they don't go far enough.

00:59:06   And I think also there's a real concern

00:59:09   that these are features that the regular iPad users

00:59:12   don't want, don't need, and don't understand.

00:59:15   And part of me thinks, would we all be better off

00:59:18   if Apple embraced iPad-like things in the Mac

00:59:22   to serve that audience?

00:59:24   And let the iPad not get kind of polluted

00:59:27   with attempts to be sort of Mac-like

00:59:30   and just let the iPad be what it's great at

00:59:34   which is the stuff that's the kind of more

00:59:36   mainstream features that people who use an iPad base model

00:59:40   or an iPad Air use.

00:59:42   And that's a big idea.

00:59:44   And as somebody who's been a big advocate for the iPad Pro,

00:59:47   I am troubled by the fact that I have had this thought,

00:59:49   but I have had this thought that like maybe the reason

00:59:53   we're on this path is because at some point

00:59:55   in the last 10 years, Apple thought the Mac was going away

00:59:58   and that the iPad had to be built to replace it.

01:00:00   And then they changed direction.

01:00:02   And now we're left in this state where the iPad

01:00:04   is not quite a Mac.

01:00:06   And it's all exacerbated by the fact

01:00:08   that they all run the same hardware.

01:00:10   So you can't have that excuse anymore

01:00:12   about like, why does this do this and this not do this?

01:00:15   The answer is, 'cause Apple's chosen

01:00:17   that the software won't go there.

01:00:19   Because otherwise like the M2 is the,

01:00:21   it's an M2 iPad Pro and it's an M2 MacBook Air.

01:00:24   They're the same essentially.

01:00:26   And on top of that,

01:00:28   the one of the points of this article is,

01:00:31   the Mac can't be a convertible, can't have a touchscreen,

01:00:35   can't do any of those experiments,

01:00:37   can't have like a touch mode that's like an iPad,

01:00:39   and the iPad can't be a laptop.

01:00:41   It can be kind of a laptop, but not really,

01:00:43   because that's the Mac's thing.

01:00:45   And like if the touchscreen MacBook Pro

01:00:49   is a breaking down of barriers

01:00:50   and not a very conservative, limited, simple implementation,

01:00:54   then that's a great sign.

01:00:56   But I don't know, I just,

01:00:58   I am having a little bit of a crisis of faith

01:01:00   about the iPad Pro. And I think that the core of it is,

01:01:05   I am no longer convinced that Apple thinks the iPad Pro

01:01:10   needs to be a powerful computer for people who are pros.

01:01:15   It feels more like they want to go up to a certain point

01:01:20   and then stop there.

01:01:22   And so when I look at these reports

01:01:23   about the expensive OLED iPads,

01:01:25   that comes into my mind too, which is like,

01:01:27   well, why would I pay $1,800 for an iPad Pro?

01:01:31   What value are you gonna give me for that?

01:01:33   That I couldn't get from like,

01:01:34   maybe I should buy a MacBook Air and an iPad Air.

01:01:36   Maybe that's what I should do if I'm not gonna be able,

01:01:39   'cause how much more value can,

01:01:40   if it can't become a Mac and you're really limited

01:01:44   in what you're adding to iPad OS,

01:01:45   how can you inscribe enough value in it for it to be $1,500?

01:01:50   - So I will say that you saying that,

01:01:54   I think I'm pretty much in agreement

01:01:58   and I'm willing to say definitively

01:02:02   what you're not 100% sure of is yes,

01:02:04   I actually think the iPad Pro branding was a mistake.

01:02:09   - A mistake, yeah. - It was a mistake.

01:02:11   It shouldn't have been branded this way.

01:02:13   - They couldn't back it up, right?

01:02:15   It's been eight years, eight years, I think?

01:02:17   They couldn't back it up.

01:02:18   - But the counterpoint that I will also make,

01:02:21   even though I believe that,

01:02:22   is I am not completely,

01:02:26   I would have to do a thorough research project

01:02:30   on how has Apple actually marketed this product?

01:02:35   What have they said that it is to be used for?

01:02:41   Because most of the time they are talking about

01:02:44   some form of creative projects

01:02:47   and they're very specific about the types of things

01:02:49   that they talk about because obviously

01:02:51   it can't do everything, right?

01:02:53   And so like, I feel like potentially

01:02:56   it falls somewhere in the middle of like,

01:02:58   Apple has been pretty clear about what they think

01:03:00   it can be used for, however, that branding, pro,

01:03:04   and also to talk about the things that we talk about

01:03:07   all the time, like the power of the machine,

01:03:10   they just, those two things are completely wrong.

01:03:12   Where, you know, alternate timeline, iPad Studio,

01:03:17   this is a creative machine for artists,

01:03:21   would have made a lot more sense.

01:03:23   - Right, especially since they introduced it

01:03:25   with the Apple Pencil, right?

01:03:26   That was one of the first things they did.

01:03:28   - But then they brought,

01:03:28   but they also introduced it with a keyboard,

01:03:30   which is like that is more traditional worky, right?

01:03:33   And they have done, since the introduction

01:03:37   of the original iPad Pro in 2015 to now,

01:03:40   like the iPad Pro and the iPad OS is much better

01:03:43   for very basic work tasks, right?

01:03:48   That is undeniable.

01:03:49   But I just said the word basic, right?

01:03:52   Which is not what a pro machine should be.

01:03:55   No, of course, I think part of the expectation here

01:04:00   falls on us of what we want the machine to do, right?

01:04:05   And kind of what we believe a pro iPad should do.

01:04:10   But that, again, it falls down to this idea

01:04:12   of like, we can only compare this to other,

01:04:16   like the MacBook Pro, right?

01:04:18   Because remember the iPhone wasn't Pro then either.

01:04:20   'Cause like you could argue, and I would argue

01:04:22   the iPhone Pro follows the iPad Pro

01:04:25   in like what it realistically does that's different.

01:04:29   But the iPad Pro kind of could follow the MacBook Pro

01:04:32   as like, well, this should be more powerful

01:04:34   and therefore should be better in a bunch of ways.

01:04:37   And Apple have pushed the product forward.

01:04:39   But like, I would even say,

01:04:41   potentially even a bigger mistake is iPad OS.

01:04:44   - Right, separating it out.

01:04:46   And this is, yeah, this is the real challenge here is,

01:04:50   I'm not saying that I don't love my iPad 'cause I do.

01:04:53   I'm not saying I don't use it to do lots of stuff.

01:04:55   I literally wrote this article on an iPad, okay?

01:04:57   - Yep.

01:04:58   - In a stand with a mechanical keyboard

01:05:02   and a Magic Trackpad.

01:05:04   - But you were doing all of that before the iPad Pro

01:05:08   before iPadOS, right?

01:05:09   Like that never changed. - That's true.

01:05:11   And when I bring up this mysterious moment

01:05:14   that somebody inside Apple would have to actually say

01:05:16   if it was true or not,

01:05:17   but like it felt very much like there was a shift in gears

01:05:21   where the Mac went from being a legacy product

01:05:24   to being the future.

01:05:24   And maybe the decision to bring that to Apple Silicon

01:05:28   and to really lean into the Mac was part of it.

01:05:30   I don't know.

01:05:31   That's just all I can read from the outside,

01:05:32   but it sure feels like the Mac got it back together.

01:05:37   And I'm now starting to feel like as a part of that,

01:05:40   the iPad got deprioritized

01:05:42   because the iPad was no longer Apple's future bridge

01:05:45   from the legacy product of the Mac.

01:05:47   And it was more just another product in the lineup, right?

01:05:50   It was another part of Apple's.

01:05:51   And I'm not saying that it's bad.

01:05:53   I'm saying it's no longer,

01:05:55   let's solve for a world where in 10 years,

01:05:57   the iPad can do enough

01:06:00   that we don't need to have macOS anymore.

01:06:02   And I don't know whether they were actually headed there

01:06:04   or not, but it certainly doesn't feel like they are now.

01:06:07   Everything is sort of like a little bit.

01:06:10   And honestly, I'm gonna give an optimistic view here

01:06:14   and say, I think one of the challenges here is also like,

01:06:17   if you look at "Stage Manager,"

01:06:19   "Stage Manager," I'm not as down on it as Federico.

01:06:22   I think it's got a lot going for it,

01:06:24   and I think it could get a lot better.

01:06:26   I think the challenge there is that I have a hard time

01:06:31   seeing it as being the answer to the question

01:06:34   of like, how do we do a full desktop environment

01:06:37   on the iPad?

01:06:38   It feels much more to me like,

01:06:40   we're gonna give you just enough

01:06:41   that you stop complaining,

01:06:44   but we're not gonna take it all the rest of the way.

01:06:46   And that comes from prioritization inside Apple.

01:06:49   It feels like they're either not capable of it,

01:06:52   or they're not given the resources to do it,

01:06:55   or they've decided not to push it.

01:06:57   And then on the other side,

01:06:59   you know, is the Mac that is now running Apple Silicon

01:07:01   and now can theoretically run iPad apps, right?

01:07:04   They built a whole infrastructure

01:07:05   where the Mac can run iPad apps.

01:07:07   And this is what I keep coming back to is,

01:07:10   well, if all the hardware is the same

01:07:11   and you're gonna add a touchscreen,

01:07:13   and I will grant you that a convertible PC laptop

01:07:16   is not as good as a proper laptop, ergonomically,

01:07:21   it's got a lot of weird issues, but it is convertible,

01:07:23   it's got that going for it.

01:07:25   At that point, isn't Mac OS capable of running,

01:07:29   if it's got a touchscreen and it can run iPad apps,

01:07:31   isn't it basically an iPad mode?

01:07:33   Aren't you basically in an iPad mode now?

01:07:36   And if maybe that's the solution is,

01:07:39   look, stop asking for more pro features on the iPad.

01:07:41   What you really want is a Mac.

01:07:43   Oh, but you say you like the iPad apps

01:07:45   and you like the tablet thing.

01:07:46   It's like, all right, we're gonna let you do that.

01:07:48   We're gonna let you fold the keyboard back

01:07:50   or pop it off or whatever.

01:07:52   And we're gonna let you do both if you want to.

01:07:54   And I know that Apple has poo-pooed this idea for a while,

01:07:57   but I'm actually not saying of like

01:07:58   merging the operating systems.

01:08:00   I'm saying, and I think this is where I'm converging on

01:08:04   as I write these articles is,

01:08:06   I'm saying that maybe it was a mistake to make iPad Pro

01:08:11   when what you really ought to have done

01:08:14   is make iPad mode work on certain Mac devices.

01:08:19   Maybe that would have been a better path forward

01:08:24   for those people who keep pushing iPad OS

01:08:26   because they like,

01:08:27   'cause like why does Federico Viticci like the iPad?

01:08:31   And he and I have, we'd send texts back and forth

01:08:33   every now and then when something dramatic happens,

01:08:35   like we both came to the same conclusion,

01:08:37   which is it's actually about ergonomics.

01:08:39   It's about the fact that it's a convertible device

01:08:41   that can be pencil driven, finger driven,

01:08:44   keyboard and trackpad driven, just keyboard driven.

01:08:47   It can be, it can look like a laptop.

01:08:48   It can look like a pure touch tablet.

01:08:51   It can be in a dock and drive a big display.

01:08:54   It can do all of those things.

01:08:56   and the Mac can only do some of those things.

01:08:58   That's the great thing about the iPad.

01:08:59   But if that's the case,

01:09:01   if you made a Mac that did those things,

01:09:03   you wouldn't need an iPad.

01:09:06   You might need iPad apps and you might need iPad,

01:09:08   you know, OS or at least something like it,

01:09:11   but the Mac already runs iPad apps.

01:09:13   It already, we're already there, right?

01:09:15   It's already running Apple Silicon.

01:09:16   It will literally run apps that are just made for the iPad.

01:09:19   So we're kind of most of the way there.

01:09:20   This is, so this is what I struggle with is

01:09:23   The iPad seems to be letting people down at the high end,

01:09:27   not anywhere else, that the stuff at the high end,

01:09:31   can they ever be pleased?

01:09:33   Can those users ever be pleased

01:09:35   without it turning into a Mac?

01:09:36   And at some point if you're Apple,

01:09:38   do you say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,

01:09:40   you don't want a Mac or you don't want an iPad,

01:09:44   you want a Mac.

01:09:45   And that gets me to the wall that I talked about,

01:09:47   the artificial barrier, which is,

01:09:49   it feels to me like right now and for the last few years,

01:09:53   The problem has been the Mac can't be an iPad

01:09:55   and the iPad can't be a Mac.

01:09:57   They can get close, but they can never cross over

01:09:59   because it's not allowed.

01:10:01   And I feel like they're reaching the end

01:10:03   of the, of their limita-

01:10:05   or, you know, the edge of their limitations at that point

01:10:08   without being able to stray over there.

01:10:11   And one of the thoughts that drove me in this direction

01:10:13   was the touchscreen rumor on the MacBook Pro.

01:10:17   And the other thought was our conversation

01:10:18   about allowing apps from outside the app store

01:10:21   to be installed on iPad OS.

01:10:24   Because I had that moment where I thought,

01:10:26   well, couldn't you just run macOS in a VM

01:10:29   on an M2 iPad Pro?

01:10:30   And wouldn't it actually work pretty well

01:10:33   in a virtual machine environment?

01:10:35   Not even having to reboot,

01:10:36   but just put it in a run Parallels or VMware Fusion for iPad

01:10:41   and boot macOS and put it in a Magic Keyboard.

01:10:46   And don't you have a macOS laptop that's also an iPad?

01:10:49   Like, not saying that would happen,

01:10:51   but I'm saying it absolutely could happen.

01:10:54   It's completely possible that you could do that.

01:10:57   Or you could do a boot if Apple wanted to support that.

01:10:59   Like all of that's on the table, but it doesn't exist.

01:11:03   And that's, I mean,

01:11:04   that's the source of my frustration about this is it,

01:11:07   it, you know, I can't do either of those things.

01:11:09   I can't make my iPad, I can make my iPad a laptop,

01:11:12   but I can't make it a Mac.

01:11:13   And I can't make my MacBook Air an iPad.

01:11:17   So, you know, I feel like something has gone wrong here.

01:11:21   That's fundamentally.

01:11:23   - There was a different timeline, you know?

01:11:27   - Yes. - There are like

01:11:28   two different timelines.

01:11:29   Like one is where the iPad just kind of remained

01:11:33   what an iPad always was,

01:11:34   that they never tried to push it further,

01:11:37   or they actually did the thing, you know?

01:11:40   And they made a macOS bootable mode on iPadOS.

01:11:43   - You're right, and we're in between them.

01:11:44   And that is the feeling I get.

01:11:46   Again, I don't have any facts about what's happening

01:11:49   inside of Apple and what has happened over the last decade.

01:11:51   But that is, Mike, I think that's exactly how I'm feeling,

01:11:54   which is, there's a world in which the iPad

01:11:57   is never pushed up into Mac feature territory.

01:12:01   And the Mac at some point goes to Apple Silicon and says,

01:12:04   oh, guess what?

01:12:05   We made a convertible,

01:12:07   we were able to make a convertible Mac now

01:12:08   that can be an iPad sometimes.

01:12:10   You're like, oh, well, that's cool.

01:12:11   I like iPad apps and I like tablets.

01:12:14   And then sometimes I need to go back to my work.

01:12:16   There's also a timeline where Apple said,

01:12:18   and I, again, no evidence, but it feels like it's true.

01:12:22   Maybe it's not true, but it sure feels like

01:12:24   anybody who spent a lot of time looking at Apple

01:12:26   and the Mac in the mid 2010s,

01:12:28   it felt like the Mac had been abandoned.

01:12:30   It really felt like the Mac had been abandoned.

01:12:33   And I think there's a scenario where they're like,

01:12:35   Mac, Intel, legacy hardware over there,

01:12:38   iPad OS, we're gonna build it up.

01:12:40   By the time we need to kill the Mac,

01:12:42   we will have made a, you know,

01:12:44   we will have moved the Mac to Apple,

01:12:45   maybe, or maybe it just stays on Intel,

01:12:47   but we will move Mac compatibility to iPad OS,

01:12:51   and we'll have that keyboard and trackpad and all of that,

01:12:54   and you'll be able to run Mac stuff,

01:12:56   and maybe we'll do a desktop down the road, who knows?

01:12:58   But like, eventually there'll be a crossover point

01:13:01   where the iPad is also the Mac,

01:13:03   and we'll solve that problem.

01:13:06   And so when the Mac fades away, we keep all those users,

01:13:10   and we maybe even find a way to run that legacy software.

01:13:13   We'll have them recompile it for Apple Silicon,

01:13:15   and we'll do that, like that was a scenario.

01:13:18   But we're in neither of those scenarios.

01:13:19   We are in this weird intermixed scenario

01:13:23   where the Mac can't be that, the iPad can't be that.

01:13:25   And that's, I mean, it's okay.

01:13:29   But when I look at the future of this,

01:13:30   and when we talk about rumors like that OLED iPad Pro,

01:13:33   I think to myself, what are we doing here?

01:13:35   Like, what is the goal of the iPad Pro?

01:13:38   Is the goal of the iPad Pro and iPad OS

01:13:40   to keep pushing up market?

01:13:42   Because I could make an argument

01:13:44   that that gets harder and harder.

01:13:46   And what the iPad is best at is not the stuff

01:13:48   that's up, up, up.

01:13:50   It's the stuff that's in the middle.

01:13:52   It's the stuff that's more mainstream,

01:13:54   just using nice apps to scroll through the internet.

01:13:56   And that all this effort going into pushing the high end

01:14:00   of the iPad to be more capable,

01:14:01   like, is it worth it to do that?

01:14:05   Is it worth it to do that?

01:14:07   If it's never gonna be enough

01:14:10   for a lot of the people who are up there?

01:14:12   And again, maybe for some people it is enough.

01:14:14   Maybe for the people who are getting, you know,

01:14:16   doing DaVinci Resolve,

01:14:17   or they're doing incredible artwork on it,

01:14:20   and then they're happy for it to be that.

01:14:23   Maybe that's the answer.

01:14:24   Maybe the answer is everybody who thought

01:14:26   that it was gonna be a more broad productivity machine,

01:14:28   it's not, that is gonna remain the Mac.

01:14:31   And there'll be some nice things up there.

01:14:33   But it's hard to look at something like Stage Manager

01:14:35   and say, okay, well, that,

01:14:36   does that fit that profile I just described?

01:14:39   I don't think it does.

01:14:41   I think it feels it fits a more broad productivity profile

01:14:43   that I don't think is.

01:14:45   - Stage manager, the files app, all of the iWork apps,

01:14:49   you know, like all of this stuff was made for it to be

01:14:53   a replacement for the Mac.

01:14:56   - It's sure pointing in that direction, right?

01:14:57   And yet, when you look at a lot of these features,

01:14:59   and I had somebody on Mastodon say,

01:15:01   to me and Federico is like,

01:15:04   "What has changed in the last two years?"

01:15:05   Like you guys used to be really into this

01:15:07   and now you're complaining about it, what has changed?

01:15:08   And he was a little argumentative about it.

01:15:10   But like what I said is, well, one thing is,

01:15:12   two years have passed,

01:15:13   in addition to the other years that have passed,

01:15:16   and we're waiting, and now I'm starting to feel like

01:15:18   Apple's commitment is not full.

01:15:21   And then I had that question in my head, which is,

01:15:23   and should it be?

01:15:24   Like, should they?

01:15:26   Should they?

01:15:27   Their heart certainly isn't in it.

01:15:28   Like, I don't feel like Apple believes,

01:15:30   it's just fundamentally,

01:15:31   I don't feel like Apple believes

01:15:32   that the iPad is the future of computing.

01:15:34   I don't.

01:15:35   I don't think they believe that.

01:15:36   - I believe that they believed it at one point.

01:15:40   I absolutely believe that they believed it at one point,

01:15:42   but now I think that they are so high on record Mac sales

01:15:46   and how great the Mac is on Apple Silicon

01:15:48   and the fact that they've now rolled iPad compatibility,

01:15:50   app compatibility into Macs that they're not.

01:15:55   And that's okay, right?

01:15:56   Like I'm not saying how dare you.

01:15:58   I was told the iPad would be the future.

01:16:01   What I'm saying is it doesn't feel like the iPad

01:16:03   is the future anymore.

01:16:04   It now feels like the iPad is a compromise

01:16:07   that brings some things to the iPad side

01:16:11   that are familiar to Mac users,

01:16:13   but doesn't really go all the way

01:16:14   because the Mac is that, and that's fine, right?

01:16:17   Like, I feel like that's where we are right now.

01:16:20   And when I say maybe the iPad Pro was a mistake,

01:16:24   that's sort of what I'm actually getting at,

01:16:26   is the iPad Pro era when it started,

01:16:29   it felt like, oh, here we go.

01:16:30   Apple has a vision for the future of computing

01:16:33   and it's the iPad.

01:16:34   And that is absolutely not the case.

01:16:36   I see no evidence that that's the case now.

01:16:38   I think that they wanna make the iPad nice

01:16:39   and have some nice features.

01:16:41   And if they can sell some iPad Pros for 12 or 13 or 15

01:16:44   or 18 or whatever the number is, $100, then great.

01:16:48   But the Mac is the future of the Mac now.

01:16:51   And as a long time Mac user, that's great.

01:16:54   But it brings me back to my other problem was,

01:16:56   which is, but I like the ergonomic adaptability of the iPad.

01:17:00   And if you're not gonna give me Mac features on my iPad,

01:17:02   how about giving me an iPad features on my Mac?

01:17:04   And that's, there's the wall, which is like, no, no, no,

01:17:07   Macs are laptops.

01:17:08   They're never detachable.

01:17:10   They're never touch tablets.

01:17:12   It's not allowed.

01:17:13   And I guess it's very Apple to say, just buy one of each,

01:17:16   but I'll tell you, in the long run,

01:17:18   if I know that the iPad is never gonna be a Mac in that way,

01:17:23   the functionality of a Mac that lets me do my job

01:17:27   and travel just with an iPad.

01:17:29   I'm already headed there.

01:17:30   I've seen Federico is headed there.

01:17:32   I think you are headed there.

01:17:33   - 100%.

01:17:34   - I mean, I use an iPad mini now, it's the only one I use.

01:17:37   - Yeah, right, so that's the point,

01:17:38   and I travel with a MacBook Air now,

01:17:40   and it's only a matter of time before I say,

01:17:42   "You know what, I'm just gonna get a Mac or an iPad Air."

01:17:46   Forget the iPad Pro, because I have given up

01:17:51   attempting to do work on it, or at least serious work on it.

01:17:55   I'm always traveling with my MacBook Air,

01:17:57   so what are we even doing here?

01:17:59   I'll just drop down the price list

01:18:01   to something that is a perfectly nice touch tablet,

01:18:05   and then I'll do all the other work on Mac OS.

01:18:08   And I mean, that's fine, but that is what's different.

01:18:12   That is what's changed, is it's no longer like

01:18:14   we're pointed in the direction of the future.

01:18:16   It's more like, well, the iPad also exists.

01:18:20   - I'm very happy with where the iPad sits in my lineup.

01:18:23   - I love my iPad. - I love it.

01:18:25   But now I feel like I have the right iPad

01:18:27   at the right price and the right form factor

01:18:29   for what I want it for, which is like the perfect

01:18:32   little consumption device for me when I'm at home.

01:18:34   - I'd probably go down in size.

01:18:35   I mean, obviously if I got the Air, I would go down in size

01:18:38   'cause I've got the big one, right?

01:18:39   And I love the big screen, but it's heavy.

01:18:40   And every time I pick up Lauren's smaller iPad Pro,

01:18:42   I think, oh, this is really nice.

01:18:44   Like it doesn't fit as much stuff,

01:18:46   but it's like so much nicer.

01:18:47   And I think to myself, well, if I'm not,

01:18:49   if I'm not using it when I'm traveling for work

01:18:52   or I'm not, you know, attaching it to a stand

01:18:55   and using it that way, like if I'm just sort of like

01:18:58   committing to the touch tablet part of it,

01:19:01   I could get away with a smaller iPad, for sure,

01:19:04   and a cheaper iPad, absolutely I could.

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01:22:07   I have some Ask Upgrade questions.

01:22:09   Michael wants to know,

01:22:12   how long do you prepare for each show?

01:22:14   Is there a rule of thumb you use to estimate the amount

01:22:17   to prepare for each minute of the show?

01:22:19   My co-hosts and I on my podcast always try to balance

01:22:22   between preparation and spontaneity

01:22:24   when it comes to our recordings.

01:22:26   - Well, let's start with you because this one,

01:22:29   you build the show doc,

01:22:30   so you're the one who's doing the heavy lifting

01:22:32   before the show.

01:22:33   - So I don't have a rule of like,

01:22:36   how long I should prepare for the runtime,

01:22:39   'cause also as well,

01:22:40   we don't know what the runtime's gonna be.

01:22:42   Me and Jason are very good at keeping the show

01:22:44   within a typical limit.

01:22:46   I think an hour 45 is, I reckon,

01:22:49   a pretty regular episode runtime for the show,

01:22:52   because that just fits with the way that we run the show

01:22:55   in the segments that we run it.

01:22:56   And I also think we're pretty good at just feeling out

01:22:59   what a segment's gonna be, so I don't think of it that way.

01:23:02   But what is a pretty typical equation

01:23:05   is I do set for every minute of the show,

01:23:08   I do like 30 seconds of prep.

01:23:10   So if the show is gonna run for two hours,

01:23:11   I've probably done about an hour.

01:23:13   So typically my preparation time for upgrade every Monday

01:23:17   is between one hour to 90 minutes,

01:23:19   depending on how deep a topic is

01:23:21   and how much I might wanna outline it beforehand.

01:23:24   That includes like all of the reading and stuff.

01:23:26   I'm adding like links to my notes for the whole week, right?

01:23:31   Like I see something pop up and I'm like,

01:23:33   I wanna read that on Monday.

01:23:34   And I try and keep all of the stuff and read it on Monday

01:23:37   so it's all fresh in my mind, right?

01:23:39   So like I saw everyone was linking to that article

01:23:41   that you wrote at Macworld,

01:23:42   but I left it till this morning.

01:23:44   So I read it today, have all my notes,

01:23:46   it's fresh in my head and I could talk about it.

01:23:47   So it's usually about 50% of the runtime

01:23:50   is how long I've prepared.

01:23:52   - I set aside half an hour on Friday afternoon

01:23:56   since by the time I wake up Monday morning,

01:23:57   we're doing the podcast basically,

01:23:59   to think about, and sometimes nothing comes of it.

01:24:03   And other times I am sending Mike messages

01:24:05   or putting them in notes or whatever

01:24:07   about things for the podcast.

01:24:09   And sometimes that will extend over the weekend

01:24:10   where I will send Mike a note about this thing

01:24:13   or that thing that we're working on.

01:24:15   But the truth is that it's basically the half hour

01:24:19   before the show that I put in the rest of that time

01:24:22   is I will sit down.

01:24:23   I mean, occasionally it's a problem

01:24:25   where it's like five minutes before the show

01:24:26   and I'm like, oh, let me look at the show doc

01:24:28   or it's like, wait Mike,

01:24:29   I'm still going through the show doc.

01:24:31   And sometimes Mike will five minutes before the show,

01:24:33   I'll be like, can we change the Snell Talk question?

01:24:35   But I try to make it a little more like half an hour before

01:24:38   where I start going through it and looking at it

01:24:40   and being prepared so that we'll be ready to go.

01:24:42   But this one's on Mike.

01:24:43   I mean, for the most part, I, you know,

01:24:46   you're the one who's doing the bulk of the prep work,

01:24:47   which is different for like, for downstream,

01:24:49   I'm the one who does that.

01:24:51   But for upgrade, you're the one who does it

01:24:53   most of the time, unless we're doing something weird

01:24:54   and collaborative, in which case we'll be building

01:24:56   the show doc in advance. - Yes, then it might change.

01:24:58   and then it's more work and it's a different process.

01:25:02   - Yeah, but for a typical episode,

01:25:04   I've built the run, like what we're gonna talk about.

01:25:06   And part of that is because like our main topic today,

01:25:10   well it was all stuff you'd already thought about.

01:25:12   Like you don't, you already wrote the article

01:25:14   that we were talking about.

01:25:14   So that kind of, you've already done the work

01:25:18   and now I'm doing it second than we talk about in the show.

01:25:22   Matthew asks, I find myself changing watch bands

01:25:25   several times a day based on activities

01:25:27   such as work, workout, sleep, that kind of thing.

01:25:30   Do you have a band strategy or are you just one and done?

01:25:33   - Cool.

01:25:34   Yeah, my band strategy is I do change the bands,

01:25:36   but I change them almost seasonally, I would say.

01:25:41   I mean, I change them when I'm in the mood

01:25:45   for a different watch band, but then I leave it on.

01:25:47   So this is the problem is I have like a leather band

01:25:49   and I don't wear it mostly because if I'm exercising

01:25:54   or if I'm washing the dishes or something,

01:25:57   I'm gonna get it wet and I don't like that.

01:25:59   So I end up primarily using the sport band,

01:26:04   the sport loop or the other loop, the nice loop.

01:26:09   - The braided loop?

01:26:11   - Yeah, the braided loop.

01:26:12   Those are my three that I generally do.

01:26:14   And the braided loop can get wet,

01:26:15   but I'm not as worried about it.

01:26:17   But I have like, when I was in New Zealand,

01:26:20   I had a sport band and my orange sport band on.

01:26:22   I came home and then I used to braided loop for a while.

01:26:24   Although here's the thing,

01:26:25   Those elastic loops, they get looser over time.

01:26:28   I think I want another.

01:26:30   My braided loops are not,

01:26:32   they're not like what they were before.

01:26:34   So I think I might actually need to,

01:26:36   I don't think I need a smaller size

01:26:38   because the smaller size is gonna really pinch.

01:26:40   I think I just need a new one because they've relaxed.

01:26:44   - That's how they get you, you know?

01:26:46   - They've relaxed and I don't wanna wear it

01:26:48   halfway up my arm.

01:26:49   - No. - So that is how they get you.

01:26:51   So, but I don't change it during the day.

01:26:53   I just don't.

01:26:54   I mean, it might be if I'm like going out to dinner

01:26:56   or something like that, I might change it at that point,

01:26:59   but that's maybe, but probably not even then.

01:27:03   And I do also have my dad's fancy Rolex.

01:27:06   And if I'm really going someplace fancy,

01:27:08   maybe I'll just break that out and wear that

01:27:10   and not worry about the Apple watch for that one.

01:27:11   And then, you know, come home and put it back away.

01:27:14   - So I wear the leather link is my watch band of choice.

01:27:21   and I've worn that for the entire time that I've had my series 7.

01:27:27   That's my daily one. I think it's the nicest looking.

01:27:31   This was a watch band that they originally or had it very early and it was bad and then it went away

01:27:38   and now it's back and it's great.

01:27:40   So if you tried the leather link and didn't like it, I recommend trying it again.

01:27:45   It looks really classy. I think it's very nice.

01:27:48   When I'm working out I use a Nike sport band

01:27:53   and if I'm wanting to dress up my Apple watch

01:27:59   I have a gold Milanese loop that I wear

01:28:03   but they're the three that I have now or that I use

01:28:06   I mean I have a bunch of old sport bands from back in the day

01:28:09   but like they're the I just rotate through those three

01:28:12   but I wear the same watch band all day

01:28:15   when I sleep because I sleep my Apple Watch on now.

01:28:18   And I still use the little link.

01:28:19   I only change it for working out and on the occasions

01:28:22   where I might want to dress it up a bit.

01:28:24   Anonymous asks, "Setting aside possible discounts,"

01:28:28   I know, "Setting aside possible discounts,

01:28:30   "do you think Apple cares if you buy a full-price product

01:28:34   "from them directly or a retailer like Best Buy?"

01:28:38   So I was thinking about this this morning, right?

01:28:41   So I was running through it.

01:28:42   Now, Best Buy are gonna take some money out of that, right?

01:28:46   So there's gonna be like a wholesale price,

01:28:48   so they're not getting the full price.

01:28:50   But then they're not paying for the cost

01:28:53   of the Apple store, right, in that.

01:28:55   So price-wise, I don't think it's that much of a difference.

01:29:00   I would say that they probably care about the experience

01:29:04   and the opportunity for upselling.

01:29:06   But they obviously don't care enough

01:29:09   that they've took their products out of these stores,

01:29:12   which I would argue they probably could,

01:29:15   but I don't know how much of a difference it would make.

01:29:18   - Yeah, I think that this is one of those things

01:29:20   where Apple sees value in being other places

01:29:22   and that they're happy for you to pay them

01:29:23   full price directly without a middleman,

01:29:26   but they're also, in the end,

01:29:30   they're on Amazon because they wanna be on Amazon.

01:29:33   - Yeah, and 'cause realistically,

01:29:34   no matter what else Amazon best,

01:29:37   they can't get out of carrier stores,

01:29:39   So for as long as they are there,

01:29:40   they might as well be in other places too, right?

01:29:42   They can't get out of carrier stores for the iPhone

01:29:44   and stuff like that.

01:29:45   - I'm sure they would, to answer this question directly,

01:29:49   I am sure they would rather you buy it directly from them.

01:29:51   - Yes.

01:29:52   - Of course.

01:29:53   But they're gonna make it available elsewhere

01:29:55   because not everybody is going to buy it

01:29:57   directly from them.

01:29:58   - And Quinn asks, "Which, if any, apps do you use

01:30:03   in full screen mode?"

01:30:04   Do you use any apps in full screen mode?

01:30:08   on the Mac, no.

01:30:11   - No, neither do I.

01:30:12   - No, no, I don't like full screen mode.

01:30:15   I have tried full screen mode with apps

01:30:17   that you would think would be good for full screen mode

01:30:20   because I opened the window to be the full size

01:30:22   of my screen, like Logic.

01:30:24   And I don't, and the reason I don't is that

01:30:26   I'm dragging stuff in from the desktop.

01:30:30   And at least Stage Manager on the Mac

01:30:35   lets you have the desktop be present

01:30:37   and lets you get to things on the desktop.

01:30:38   Somebody learned their lesson there.

01:30:40   But like, yeah, it's, I hate it.

01:30:44   I hate it on the Mac.

01:30:46   And if you love it, then great.

01:30:47   But like, I don't use any, I don't use split view.

01:30:50   I don't use full screen mode, not on my big iMac,

01:30:53   not on my MacBook Air.

01:30:54   I will make a window really big,

01:30:57   but I won't do that because I will need to pull something

01:31:00   out of the finder.

01:31:01   If not on the desktop, then somewhere in the finder.

01:31:03   I do that all the time.

01:31:04   And maybe I'm not using it right, right?

01:31:07   Maybe I should be inserting everything from a menu

01:31:09   inside of Logic or whatever, but I don't.

01:31:12   That's not how I work.

01:31:13   I go back to the desktop, I go back to the Finder.

01:31:15   So every time I try it, I use it for a short amount of time

01:31:20   and then have a moment where it slides away

01:31:23   and now I'm somewhere else and I think, nope.

01:31:26   And that's the end of that full screen mode.

01:31:28   - Yeah, I don't like it 'cause it's just more difficult

01:31:30   to do everything when you're in full screen mode.

01:31:32   and similarly to you, I have, if I'm in logic,

01:31:36   I will extend it to basically fill up every possible pixel,

01:31:40   but I still would prefer to have it do that

01:31:42   than be in the actual full screen mode.

01:31:45   David in Discord mentions games and videos.

01:31:47   I mean, yeah, sure, but I don't play games on my Mac

01:31:50   and I don't watch videos in full screen either

01:31:53   because usually I'm sitting in front of a 28 inch display.

01:31:57   I don't need, I'm like right in front of it.

01:31:59   Like I don't want the window to actually be that large.

01:32:02   - I use, if I'm watching something on YouTube

01:32:05   or really any web based video, I will put it in,

01:32:09   like YouTube I put it in theater mode

01:32:11   and then I just make the window larger

01:32:14   than it makes it pleasant for me.

01:32:16   I'll adjust the Safari window,

01:32:17   but I almost never put it in full screen even then.

01:32:22   - It's just not very good.

01:32:23   I don't know why, like I don't know what it is exactly,

01:32:25   but I just don't like it.

01:32:26   - I know.

01:32:27   - Everything I do on the iPad is in full screen mode,

01:32:29   but not on the Mac.

01:32:31   - I mean, I think it's like for me,

01:32:32   with the difference of the iPad is like,

01:32:34   the iPad doesn't have the menu bar and doesn't, you know,

01:32:36   and also getting to the dock is easier.

01:32:38   It's more natural where like on the Mac,

01:32:41   you've got to like just wait, you know,

01:32:43   wave over and wait a second and it will pop up.

01:32:45   But like on the iPad, if you want to get to the dock,

01:32:48   it's just more natural of like,

01:32:49   I just, I swipe up and it happens instantly, you know,

01:32:52   it's like a different method.

01:32:54   Yeah, I don't like full screen on the Mac.

01:32:56   If you would like to send in a question for us to answer in a future episode of the show,

01:33:00   just go to upgradefeedback.com and you can send in your Ask Upgrade questions there.

01:33:06   Thank you so much to everybody that has.

01:33:08   You can check out Jason's writing in the meantime until we're back next week and always at sixcolors.com

01:33:14   and you can hear Jason's other podcasts at the incomparable.com and here on Relay FM.

01:33:19   We mentioned a couple on this episode, right?

01:33:21   You can get Football is Life which Jason's sometimes on over on the incomparable.

01:33:25   can get downstream as well here on Relay FM, one of my favourite podcasts. You can listen

01:33:30   to my shows here on Relay FM and check out my work at cortexbrand.com. We're both on

01:33:35   Mastodon. I'm having an increasingly good time on Mastodon. I find Mastodon to be a

01:33:41   significantly better experience to me than Twitter has been in maybe the last 10 years.

01:33:47   So you can find me, I'm on Mike.Social as @imike and you can find Jason on Zeppelin.Flights

01:33:54   as @jsnell. You can send us your feedback and questions at upgradefeedback.com. Thank

01:34:00   you to those of you who support us with Upgrade Plus. You can go to getupgradeplus.com to

01:34:04   get longer ad-free episodes of the show every single week. Getupgradeplus.com. Thank you

01:34:11   to our sponsors, the fine folks over at Setapp, TextExpander and Ladder. But most of all,

01:34:16   thank you for listening and we'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye Jason Snell.

01:34:21   Bye Mike Hurley.

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