453: At Large at Apple Park


00:00:00   [

00:00:08   "The

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 453.

00:00:12   Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace and FitBud.

00:00:15   My name is Mike Hurley and I'm joined

00:00:17   by my co-host in crime, Mr. Jason Snell.

00:00:20   Hi, Jason.

00:00:22   - Mike, you weren't supposed to talk about the crime.

00:00:24   - Whoops.

00:00:25   - You're not supposed to say that part out loud.

00:00:26   - Should we just start over again so nobody knows?

00:00:28   - I just, hello, perfectly legal co-host.

00:00:31   It is good to speak to you about perfectly legal matters.

00:00:35   - I have a way to get us out of this legal trouble

00:00:38   which is to ask you a snow talk question.

00:00:40   Oh, thank goodness for that.

00:00:42   Well, we've got the savior of the snow talk question.

00:00:44   This one comes from Greg. Greg submitted their question like you should

00:00:47   over at UpgradeFeedback.com.

00:00:49   If you have a question you would like to hear us open an episode of Upgrade With

00:00:54   so we don't talk about crimes, go to UpgradeFeedback.com.

00:00:57   And Greg asks, maybe this is crime related, I don't know.

00:01:01   Stop talking about crimes!

00:01:03   Sorry, I don't know why I've got it in my head today.

00:01:05   What do you have your iMessage keep messages setting set to?

00:01:10   30 days, one year or forever?

00:01:13   - I feel like people who know me

00:01:16   would know the answer to this.

00:01:19   The answer is forever.

00:01:21   Why would it not be forever?

00:01:24   Why would I not keep messages forever?

00:01:26   Unless I was like committing crimes,

00:01:28   oh no, you've got me doing it now.

00:01:29   (laughing)

00:01:31   Forever is the answer, forever.

00:01:33   - Forever and ever and ever.

00:01:35   Yeah, I keep mine forever too.

00:01:37   I don't have all of my iMessages going back to forever,

00:01:41   which makes me feel like at some point,

00:01:43   I don't know when, but at some point,

00:01:45   I must have had some kind of failed device migration

00:01:47   or I decided to set a device hub as new.

00:01:50   Like my messages don't go all the way back

00:01:52   to the beginning of the iPhone.

00:01:54   Do yours?

00:01:55   - Oh, I have no idea.

00:01:58   - If you scroll to the bottom of the messages app,

00:02:00   mine for some reason, oh, this is even worse.

00:02:02   - Might only go back to July of 2022.

00:02:05   I don't know what happened there,

00:02:06   but that's my oldest message.

00:02:08   - I don't know.

00:02:09   There's messages in the cloud and when did that come in

00:02:11   and what's that going on?

00:02:13   And I mean, I don't rely on it,

00:02:16   but I thought it would be useful if you have search, right?

00:02:21   Like if you have the ability to search through that stuff,

00:02:25   why not keep it there, right?

00:02:26   And I have a lot of iCloud storage space

00:02:28   and it's like, it just seemed like,

00:02:30   look at my devices have enough space

00:02:32   and I just, I didn't worry about it.

00:02:33   No, I just scrolled back to a text message thread

00:02:36   with a friend and it goes back to November, 2012,

00:02:40   that thread.

00:02:42   - Oh, on my Mac, they go back way further.

00:02:44   I don't know what my iPhone was doing.

00:02:47   - I'm just looking on my iPad here.

00:02:48   - I just keep scrolling and they keep loading.

00:02:50   Maybe I didn't give my iPhone enough time to load.

00:02:53   - You have a time to just keep loading

00:02:55   further back in time. - I go 2014.

00:02:57   That's my earliest message that I have.

00:03:00   - Forever, baby, forever is the answer.

00:03:02   - Yeah, but I also have my sense of-

00:03:03   - Unless you're committing crimes.

00:03:05   - But even then.

00:03:06   - Even then?

00:03:07   - I don't know, maybe.

00:03:09   - Okay.

00:03:10   - Well, I've got that end-to-end encryption on it now,

00:03:12   so no one can get me. - Oh, I see.

00:03:13   I see, that's good.

00:03:14   Well, that's good for when you're committing crimes.

00:03:16   - Exactly, no one can catch me.

00:03:18   Can't catch me.

00:03:19   If you would like to send in a question

00:03:21   to help us open the show, to go to upgradefeedback.com,

00:03:24   and you can select Snail Talk right there

00:03:27   and send us a question.

00:03:28   I do wanna say, since introducing

00:03:30   those categories, I wanna thank the Upgradients, Jason,

00:03:33   because every Upgradient sends in feedback

00:03:35   having ticked one of those boxes.

00:03:37   - Oh, that's good for you. - Which you don't need to do,

00:03:39   but I appreciate that you do,

00:03:41   'cause it makes my job so much easier

00:03:42   when I'm going through the-- - We appreciate it.

00:03:44   - What I would say is hundreds of pieces of feedback

00:03:46   that we get per episode,

00:03:47   which I'm also very appreciative of.

00:03:50   I like that people have things

00:03:51   that they want us to talk about,

00:03:52   things that they want us to say.

00:03:54   That would actually start with follow-up.

00:03:56   So Paul wrote in to say,

00:03:58   Mike stated that the original iPhone did not have a killer app, but it did and was even mentioned by

00:04:03   Steve Jobs in the 2007 keynote. Steve said making phone calls was the killer app.

00:04:08   I will tell you Steve Jobs was wrong. That's what I'll say.

00:04:13   Yeah, it was not that. No, it was, he could say whatever. Like, I think that there's, there,

00:04:20   there are books that have been written and podcasts that have been recorded entirely on

00:04:24   on the subject of that keynote, right?

00:04:25   Like that keynote is really interesting,

00:04:27   but it's not right, right?

00:04:31   Like it's one of the great moments of tech keynote history

00:04:34   and tech and product introduction history,

00:04:36   but it's not right, right?

00:04:38   Like it is like the breakthrough internet communicator

00:04:42   is the big moment and that's the one that falls flat.

00:04:46   Whereas touch screen iPod and phone or whatever,

00:04:53   like things that don't matter got a response

00:04:57   and the things that did matter didn't.

00:04:58   And I think Steve is trying to justify in that keynote

00:05:01   why you would use this to replace your phone.

00:05:04   But what a killer app is,

00:05:05   is like the thing that makes the product huge.

00:05:07   The thing where the product finds what it's meant for.

00:05:11   And making phone calls is not what the iPhone was meant for

00:05:14   and it's not what made the iPhone successful

00:05:16   because it can't be a killer app

00:05:19   if literally every product in the category does it.

00:05:22   and then one product comes to differentiate itself

00:05:24   from the category, right?

00:05:25   Like logically, that would make it not a killer app.

00:05:28   It's table stakes, right?

00:05:30   It's the lowest common denominator of making phone calls.

00:05:33   So I would argue that as we did last time,

00:05:38   respectfully to Paul, the app store itself

00:05:42   might have been the killer app and the apps that it,

00:05:45   and if there was something on the original iPhone

00:05:47   that I would consider arguably a killer app,

00:05:50   it would be Safari because it was a full web browser

00:05:53   on a phone for the first time.

00:05:55   - Changed everything. - All of the other

00:05:56   web browsers back then were crappy.

00:05:58   However, Mike, as you pointed out,

00:06:00   they didn't have an app store then, so they were very,

00:06:03   Steve Jobs was really quick to be like,

00:06:05   yeah, sweet solution, you can save web apps

00:06:08   to the home screen.

00:06:10   But that actually wasn't the killer app in the end.

00:06:13   It was the app store that did it.

00:06:16   - I mean, I could even argue that the killer app today

00:06:19   still with Safari, like having the ability to access

00:06:22   the fold web on a device that's in your pocket,

00:06:26   I think is truly the breakthrough part.

00:06:29   And I think they knew that.

00:06:30   I do not believe that Steve Jobs thought

00:06:33   that the killer app of the iPhone was making calls.

00:06:35   He was just trying to say that like, look,

00:06:39   this phone does like a lot of weird stuff, right?

00:06:41   But it can still just make the phone calls

00:06:43   that you think you want.

00:06:45   - Yeah, he's reassuring people

00:06:47   that the phone, that it's a phone and it works like a phone

00:06:52   and it's not too weird, right?

00:06:53   I mean, I do think that a lot of this was like,

00:06:55   this is not too weird.

00:06:56   Don't worry, it's still a phone.

00:06:58   You can just use it 'cause number one rule of iPhone

00:07:01   was get people to replace their phone, right?

00:07:05   Get people to replace or for the first time add a cell phone.

00:07:09   That was job one.

00:07:11   And so you had to make the point

00:07:12   that it did texting and calls, right?

00:07:15   Like as job one.

00:07:16   And then that's why the app was SMS, right?

00:07:18   Like at that point, the app was literally called SMS

00:07:21   for texting because they wanted to reassure people

00:07:24   it's a phone, it's okay, it's a phone and an iPod

00:07:28   and an internet communication device.

00:07:31   But that's not the same as saying it's a killer app.

00:07:34   - So we also got some feedback from Tim on the headset

00:07:40   who says, "You've commented that it makes sense for Apple

00:07:43   to ship a headset so they can start iterating on it

00:07:46   and see how people use it.

00:07:47   On the other hand, Apple is famously the company

00:07:50   that says a thousand no's for every yes

00:07:52   and waits until it feels like the product

00:07:54   has real value to add.

00:07:55   Why do you think the headset is different

00:07:57   from say a foldable phone or any other new tech

00:08:00   they may have in development?

00:08:02   What is it about the headset that means it should be

00:08:04   a yes right now instead of a no?

00:08:06   - By the way, a thousand no's for every yes

00:08:09   was like 10 years ago at least.

00:08:11   So it's not as if every Apple ad says a thousand no's

00:08:16   for every yes.

00:08:17   I would say that in a self-serving video a decade ago,

00:08:22   they did that.

00:08:23   But like, I'll take that as it is.

00:08:26   And I will say, I feel like it's about the journey

00:08:29   more than it is, you know,

00:08:31   they're trying to get somewhere with this.

00:08:34   So there is an ulterior motive

00:08:36   and it could be skewing what they're trying to do,

00:08:38   but they're trying to get somewhere with this.

00:08:40   They're trying to get to a place where there's a product

00:08:45   that replaces the iPhone and make sure that if that happens,

00:08:50   if that happens, that they're the ones who are there

00:08:52   competing for it.

00:08:53   I think that's the number one reason this product exists.

00:08:55   I will also say, so they need to start iterating on it,

00:08:58   but I'll also say that they probably could have shipped

00:09:02   this what, four years ago, three years ago, two years ago,

00:09:04   one year ago, and they still haven't shipped it.

00:09:06   And hopefully maybe they'll ship it this year.

00:09:08   I mean, there's still a question about that

00:09:09   that we'll get to in a little bit, maybe.

00:09:12   But so I would say there have been many thousands of nos,

00:09:15   clearly already, right?

00:09:17   So they have had many thousands of nos to get to a yes.

00:09:21   - I mean, we talk about them, right?

00:09:22   Like the idea that it would be attached to a Mac or a box,

00:09:27   or it would talk to your phone.

00:09:30   Like these were things that they did,

00:09:32   like the processing would come from your phone

00:09:34   and it would just stream information from the phone,

00:09:37   which it doesn't seem like it's doing either.

00:09:38   Like there have been, as you I think rightly point out,

00:09:42   there have been thousands of no's.

00:09:44   But again, it's like, we're not,

00:09:46   this isn't like doing something, some new drastic thing,

00:09:50   like a foldable phone in that sense.

00:09:52   It is more like what they already did with the Apple Watch

00:09:54   of like, you get to a certain part

00:09:57   where the technology is good enough,

00:10:00   and you've got to see how people want it,

00:10:02   how they want to use it, how they're going to use it,

00:10:04   how developers are going to use it.

00:10:05   Like you've got to take a moment

00:10:08   where you take a leap of faith,

00:10:11   which if you go back to what we just spoke about,

00:10:14   the original iPhone did not have an app store.

00:10:16   The original iPhone did not have an app store.

00:10:19   They didn't think it needed one

00:10:22   or they wanted not to have one.

00:10:24   - Or they couldn't get the app development

00:10:27   even internally to the point

00:10:28   where they could show it to anybody else,

00:10:30   but they decided to ship the product anyway

00:10:32   with a fixed number of apps on the home screen.

00:10:34   They chose their moment.

00:10:35   And you're right, there's an art to that, right?

00:10:38   Like, 'cause it's never, it's never the perfect moment,

00:10:41   because you could always do better.

00:10:43   So when's the moment where it's close enough

00:10:46   that you can ship it,

00:10:48   knowing that you really need to ship it

00:10:50   to get it to where it needs to be,

00:10:51   and you can't, arguably you shouldn't wait until it's done,

00:10:56   because it'll never be done

00:10:57   if it's not out there in the world,

00:10:59   getting beat up and criticized and used by people

00:11:03   who are gonna go, "Oh, why doesn't it do this?"

00:11:05   Or, "I really like this one thing

00:11:07   that you thought was an obscure thing, but it turns out is super important, and you gotta

00:11:11   ship it for that. So they've judged maybe that this is the right product to ship. I

00:11:17   was gonna write in our notes that we've argued about, but I think that that's premature.

00:11:23   We will all be arguing about this for the next few years, right? About whether they

00:11:29   were right or wrong to ship this product in terms of the timing. I would make the argument

00:11:35   that since they don't have a product

00:11:37   that can ship in volume because of the price,

00:11:40   and that it's not a product that appeals

00:11:45   to even the interested masses,

00:11:46   potentially based on the reports,

00:11:48   that it's gonna be so expensive

00:11:49   that they're gonna ship under a million units of this thing.

00:11:54   And there's a lot of spinning going on.

00:11:56   It's like, oh, it's like the Apple Watch,

00:11:58   but it seems more extreme to me than the Apple Watch.

00:12:00   But I could argue that this is,

00:12:03   since Apple seems to be a company

00:12:05   that's never gonna release a product

00:12:07   that's just for developers.

00:12:08   Maybe this is what a developer kit from Apple looks like,

00:12:11   which is this, which is we gotta ship something

00:12:14   and most people aren't gonna get it,

00:12:15   but don't worry, we're working on something else

00:12:17   down the line.

00:12:18   But I think Apple feels like they need to ship this.

00:12:23   What's the impetus for this, right?

00:12:26   It's like, oh no, is Meta eating our lunch?

00:12:27   I don't think that's the case,

00:12:28   but I do wonder if what Apple feels is like,

00:12:31   we've taken it maybe as far as we can really take it

00:12:34   without getting it into the world, number one.

00:12:37   And two, that they look at the competition

00:12:40   and they look at what Metta's doing

00:12:41   and they say, "We are so much better

00:12:43   than anything that's out there

00:12:46   in terms of defining this for now and for the future.

00:12:49   And we wanna reset the category."

00:12:51   Which is what the iPhone did, right?

00:12:53   We just say, "We are going to redefine

00:12:55   what this kind of product is." - And the Apple Watch.

00:12:56   - And yeah, and the Apple Watch, exactly right.

00:12:58   We're gonna set the standard.

00:13:00   And you know what happens after that

00:13:02   is that then everybody else looks at Apple and says,

00:13:04   "Oh, we need to do that," and then game on, right?

00:13:07   Then whoever it is, Google and Meta and Samsung

00:13:11   and whoever else is gonna go, "Oh, right, let's be like that."

00:13:16   And then the game is on.

00:13:18   But so that's my guess is that Apple feels

00:13:20   like they've reached a point where they can't go much further

00:13:23   without being turned open to the world.

00:13:26   And also that there's a risk in the category

00:13:29   sort of stagnating and that there's an opportunity

00:13:31   for Apple to define this category.

00:13:34   But again, like I said, I could argue that

00:13:38   this is not the right product to ship

00:13:42   only in the sense that it seems like a developer kit.

00:13:46   It seems like something that, you know,

00:13:47   we're basically being told, wait a year or two

00:13:50   for the one that people are gonna buy.

00:13:51   And that's troubling to me because that makes me feel

00:13:54   like they maybe did get it wrong a little bit.

00:13:56   But I understand they were under impulse,

00:13:58   which is we gotta get this thing out.

00:14:00   We gotta get it shipping.

00:14:01   Developers need to see it.

00:14:02   We need to have, because the other thing is Apple secrecy.

00:14:05   Apple secrecy works against itself here.

00:14:07   'Cause this thing needs to be out in the open.

00:14:09   They need to start building a platform here.

00:14:11   And if they can't start building the platform

00:14:15   until a product is announced,

00:14:17   like this OS, this reality OS thing,

00:14:19   like if we can't start building that product in public

00:14:24   until we announce something, we need to announce something.

00:14:27   I think that there is an argument to be made

00:14:29   on that side too.

00:14:30   that it just needs to be out in the open

00:14:34   and people need to start picking it apart

00:14:35   and developers need to look at it and say,

00:14:37   here's what we need that you didn't provide

00:14:39   so that they can start making it potentially into something.

00:14:42   Not that they'll succeed, but like,

00:14:45   so that's, anyway, Tim, that is my answer about this

00:14:49   is that I feel like there have been a thousand no's

00:14:52   or several thousand no's,

00:14:53   but they've also reached the point where they feel like

00:14:55   it can't really go forward and become anything more

00:15:00   until it goes out the door.

00:15:01   But that said, it gives me pause that it seems priced,

00:15:04   like it's gonna be priced so high

00:15:05   that it's gonna be a very, very, very limited appeal.

00:15:08   And I feel like there's some danger in that,

00:15:10   but at the same time,

00:15:12   they wanna define what this category can be.

00:15:14   And this sounds like they didn't skimp on features

00:15:17   in order to get there.

00:15:19   So it'll be fascinating to watch what happens,

00:15:21   but those are the dynamics of play, I think.

00:15:25   - Before we move on,

00:15:25   I want to put something out into the world

00:15:28   that I'm hoping the Upgradients

00:15:29   might be able to help me with.

00:15:30   So I am a stage manager user on the Mac, still am.

00:15:35   This is how I live my life.

00:15:38   Feel free to judge me as you please, but I like it.

00:15:41   At some point between 13.1 and 13.4,

00:15:45   I don't know where because I don't know what version

00:15:47   of macOS my MacBook Air was on before I updated to 13.4.

00:15:52   When you click the desktop, it shows the desktop.

00:15:57   I don't want this, it didn't used to do this, my MacBook Pro that I'm recording on right

00:16:03   now is on 13.1.

00:16:05   If I'm in a stage manager stage and I click the desktop, it just makes all of the windows

00:16:10   in front of me just non-active, it doesn't show me the desktop.

00:16:14   On 13.4, if I click the desktop, it shows the desktop.

00:16:17   I don't want it to do that and I can't find a setting to change it and I don't know why

00:16:22   that default behavior has changed.

00:16:24   And you may say to me, Mike, why do you do this?

00:16:25   I'll tell you why I do this.

00:16:27   habit like if I send a message say an iMessage or whatever I tend to click the

00:16:33   desktop so iMessage isn't active anymore so if somebody sends a reply it's not

00:16:36   going to immediately be marked as red. It's muscle memory. Muscle memory now and so

00:16:42   I'm finding when I'm on my MacBook Air which is what I'm doing my work all day I'm

00:16:45   seeing the desktop hundreds of times a day where I don't want to and so I don't

00:16:49   know why this has changed I don't know why the default changed and then there

00:16:54   was no setting.

00:16:56   And I also don't know why this is a thing

00:16:58   that people would want.

00:17:00   - At some point they made it so that you could see the files

00:17:03   on the desktop.

00:17:04   And the idea there was if you leave files on the desktop,

00:17:06   you can click on the desktop and then start a drag

00:17:09   or double click or whatever in order to get your files.

00:17:11   And I think that makes sense.

00:17:12   But I think this is a good question.

00:17:14   Like shouldn't the behavior be that if you can't see files

00:17:17   on the desktop, well, okay, there's two behaviors, right?

00:17:21   Even if you can't, well, no.

00:17:23   I can see files on the desktop now on 13.1.

00:17:27   And if I click the desktop, nothing happens,

00:17:30   which is what I want to happen.

00:17:31   - Okay, right.

00:17:33   So you have to make space.

00:17:35   Well, that's weird, right?

00:17:36   'Cause like either you need access to the desktop

00:17:38   or you don't, I would say, right?

00:17:40   Like, so what they're doing is they're saying

00:17:42   you can make space for the files on the desktop

00:17:44   so you can see them in either mode.

00:17:47   But you could argue that maybe it should just be like,

00:17:49   either you can see the desktop stuff or you can't.

00:17:52   And so it's either that or they should add a setting

00:17:56   that basically says ignore clicks on the desktop.

00:18:00   I don't know.

00:18:01   - Or just like when I click the desktop,

00:18:03   show me the desktop, like that should be the setting

00:18:05   and then it's just on or off.

00:18:07   You know?

00:18:08   - Mm-hmm.

00:18:08   - That's what the setting should be, I feel like.

00:18:11   But it's just very strange to me

00:18:12   to change the default like that

00:18:13   and there's just no way to change it back.

00:18:15   It's just impossible to change it back.

00:18:16   - Yeah, file feedback on that one.

00:18:19   - Well, I'm doing it verbally

00:18:20   to make sure I'm not missing something.

00:18:22   - Okay.

00:18:23   - And then if-- - So upgrading and file a feedback.

00:18:25   - No, if I hear nothing from people about this,

00:18:27   then I will file a feedback.

00:18:29   'Cause that could be something I'm missing

00:18:30   because I can't understand how to use

00:18:32   the Settings app anymore, I can't.

00:18:35   - That's fair.

00:18:36   - And so-- - You can.

00:18:37   - Nobody.

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00:20:56   Hi Tim.

00:20:57   Hi Tim, I have good news for you.

00:20:59   As I said when I appeared on your upgrade program last week, we had to delay it a little bit,

00:21:05   but as I said last week, we did announce WWC, it's coming back, the same time that it always

00:21:13   is, so enjoy.

00:21:14   Bye, Tim out.

00:21:15   You sound a little like Elvis, Tim.

00:21:17   Yeah, I was getting a little southern with Tim.

00:21:20   Well, Tim is southern, but I felt like I was a little more Texas there than I should be

00:21:23   for a guy from Alabama.

00:21:24   Maybe he watched the movie.

00:21:25   I watched that movie.

00:21:26   that movie, the Elvis movie?

00:21:28   - I did too.

00:21:28   - It was a good movie.

00:21:29   - I liked Elvis.

00:21:30   It's long, but you know what?

00:21:31   I liked it all.

00:21:32   - Exactly, yeah.

00:21:33   It's good if the movie's long

00:21:35   if you like all the long movie.

00:21:36   It's only a problem if you don't like all the long movie.

00:21:38   - This is my biggest endorsement of the Elvis movie

00:21:40   is that there's a moment in that movie

00:21:42   where they blast through one portion of his life,

00:21:45   which is like when he's in the army and stuff.

00:21:47   And I was actually a little disappointed.

00:21:48   I'm like, "Oh, but why don't you talk about the army

00:21:50   "a little bit more?"

00:21:51   And when you're watching a 90,000 hour long movie

00:21:53   and you're like, "I wish it was a little bit longer,"

00:21:56   you're probably enjoying that movie.

00:21:57   So yeah, I liked it.

00:21:58   Anyway, that was, yes. - Austin Butler was

00:22:00   robbed of Best Actor, that's all I'm gonna say.

00:22:01   - Thank you very much, this is Tim.

00:22:03   - That was awesome.

00:22:04   - Now listen, now listen, Mike.

00:22:06   Things are gonna be, I don't know what I'm doing.

00:22:08   I don't know what to do. - WWDC is not all shook up

00:22:10   at all, it's basically the same.

00:22:13   June 5th to 9th, there's gonna be a special event

00:22:16   at Apple Park on the 5th, which is gonna encompass,

00:22:19   this is like a busy day.

00:22:21   Like if you go to, if you're a developer

00:22:23   and you go to that special event,

00:22:24   That is a busy old day.

00:22:26   You've got the keynote in the morning,

00:22:28   State of the Union, and the Apple Design Awards Ceremony

00:22:31   all on June 5th.

00:22:33   It's just gonna be a busy old time,

00:22:35   but it's gonna be again at Apple Park.

00:22:36   I think we basically spoke about this,

00:22:38   that our expectation was imagine last year,

00:22:41   but maybe a little bit more involved,

00:22:43   and I still think there will be some more to come

00:22:45   because they kind of talk about that on the page,

00:22:47   like keep your eye on this page,

00:22:49   and also more organized in that we know well in advance

00:22:53   that it's gonna be a bigger affair, I think,

00:22:57   on the June the 5th, and things just seem

00:22:59   to be a little bit more like, hey, we're doing this thing,

00:23:02   and we know what we're doing, and here it is.

00:23:04   And you have until April 4th, which if you're listening

00:23:06   to this and the day it comes out, is tomorrow.

00:23:08   So it's a very short timeline to put your application in.

00:23:12   And they've got a bunch of ways in which you can put

00:23:14   in an application.

00:23:16   They put out the imagery too, which--

00:23:19   - You're submitting an application to come,

00:23:20   not like an app.

00:23:22   - Yeah.

00:23:23   store right? Yeah. You say application, I mean it could be either one. Well, if you

00:23:28   are one of the student Swift challenge people then it's kind of both. I guess you do have

00:23:31   to send in your app right? It's both. It's an application and an application. Can I make

00:23:36   a prediction? I would love it. This is, I mean, we will, if we don't learn anything

00:23:41   between now and our draft, because we should say we were doing some scheduling planning

00:23:45   for late May, because I'm going to take a little trip on Memorial Day weekend, and Mike,

00:23:51   response was, "Oh, that's the draft."

00:23:54   We know months in advance.

00:23:56   - Which is beautiful.

00:23:57   - When the upgrade draft is going to be.

00:23:58   - This is what it always used to be like.

00:24:00   - I know, right?

00:24:01   It's luxurious now though, it feels very luxurious.

00:24:03   So we'll pick this if we don't know

00:24:07   by the time the draft happens,

00:24:08   but I'm gonna make just an early,

00:24:10   off the top of my head prediction here,

00:24:12   which is I think they're going to take the developers

00:24:16   to where we were last year, which is Cafe Max,

00:24:20   all wide open, lots of seats, and all the developers

00:24:23   are gonna be there in front of the big screen

00:24:25   watching the event.

00:24:27   And I think they're gonna take the press

00:24:29   to the Steve Jobs Theater.

00:24:31   - Now, Mike Hurley would like that,

00:24:33   because I'm hoping that I get, I've booked my travel,

00:24:37   like I'm going to WWDC.

00:24:40   I am not applying to do the developer thing,

00:24:43   'cause I'm not one, and I'm hoping that an invitation

00:24:45   will get extended to me, like it did last time.

00:24:48   And that would be great if it was the case,

00:24:49   'cause I would quite like to go to the Steve Jobs Theater.

00:24:52   - Mm-hmm.

00:24:53   Yeah, I mean, they could do it exactly like last year,

00:24:55   but I'll remind you,

00:24:56   the iPhone event last year was in the Steve Jobs Theater,

00:24:59   where they played the videos,

00:25:01   and then we came back out and there was a hands-on area,

00:25:03   like the old days, except nobody on stage,

00:25:05   except an intro from Tim,

00:25:07   but then they just rolled the video.

00:25:09   So it would not surprise me at all

00:25:12   if they bifurcated this and they had PR

00:25:15   doing Steve Jobs Theater with the press,

00:25:18   and they had developer relations doing Cafe Max

00:25:21   with the people who won the developer thing,

00:25:23   which also means that there'd be more room for developers.

00:25:27   - Yeah. - Right?

00:25:28   And they could still stage there.

00:25:30   I mean, it's extra complexity to do two different locations

00:25:33   inside Apple Park, but I think they could probably do it.

00:25:35   In fact, where you come in at the Tantau,

00:25:37   so across the street for those who have been there,

00:25:40   this might help you, but like across the street

00:25:42   from the Apple Store that's at Apple Park,

00:25:44   'cause the Apple Store at Apple Park is not at Apple Park,

00:25:46   it's across the street from Apple Park.

00:25:48   You can see it from there.

00:25:49   That's all you get, everybody.

00:25:50   That's all you get.

00:25:51   Enjoy this AR Apple Park.

00:25:53   - The viewing platform that they have at the Apple store.

00:25:56   You can't see all of Apple Park.

00:25:59   Like it's not possible because it's so large.

00:26:01   - It's huge. - You can't like look at it

00:26:03   and see all like the entire--

00:26:05   - They need a very tall building for that.

00:26:08   And there's height restrictions there.

00:26:09   Anyway, so across the street from that,

00:26:12   across Tantow is like a,

00:26:16   a gate almost, but it's like a building.

00:26:19   It's like a little glass reception area with gates.

00:26:24   And you pass through there,

00:26:27   if you're going onto the campus as a civilian, as I have,

00:26:31   and then it's a very natural bifurcation.

00:26:35   In fact, the building even has two sides.

00:26:37   So you could even like bifurcate entry to left and right.

00:26:41   But when you pass through, if you go to the right,

00:26:43   you go to the ring.

00:26:44   And if you go to the left, you go to Steve Jobs Theater.

00:26:47   So it would be very straightforward for them

00:26:50   to build up essentially two different versions of the event

00:26:53   for press and for developers.

00:26:56   The only argument against this that I would say,

00:26:58   well, there's the complexity argument.

00:27:00   The other argument against it would be

00:27:02   that Apple really does enjoy coverage

00:27:05   of the developers being excited.

00:27:07   And if you remove the press from that,

00:27:10   you don't get that part of it.

00:27:12   But especially if this is a really important product,

00:27:17   you know, product release or whatever they're doing,

00:27:20   product announcement for the headset,

00:27:22   then I can see the benefit of pouring the press

00:27:25   into Steve Jobs Theater and then pouring the developers

00:27:27   into the other side.

00:27:29   So I'm just gonna throw that out there as a,

00:27:30   if it's not a prediction, it's a possibility

00:27:33   that they might actually have us in two different places

00:27:35   on the Apple Park campus, but we'll see, we'll see.

00:27:38   I'm curious because we can talk about WWDC last year

00:27:41   as the model, but they also did do that iPhone event.

00:27:44   And that was in the theater.

00:27:45   So I don't know.

00:27:46   - Probably the combination,

00:27:47   I actually, that makes sense,

00:27:49   this is the combination of two, right?

00:27:51   Where like the model being that like,

00:27:53   there will be people inside of Apple Park, right?

00:27:56   Like that's large.

00:27:58   Where everybody goes.

00:28:00   - At large, now that sounds like crime is happening.

00:28:04   They're at large, inside Apple Park.

00:28:07   - That's wild.

00:28:08   The imagery is out.

00:28:10   imagery is interesting. It's a lot of colored circles. I saw the Halide camera app tweet

00:28:17   something I just enjoyed, which was the WWDC invite resembles what is called a pancake

00:28:21   lens array, which is often used in VR goggles. That's fun.

00:28:24   Yes. Yes. It's also a rainbow arch like the arch that's in the middle of Apple Park. But

00:28:28   yes, maybe this means something. The visuals are cool. But what I'll say about

00:28:33   the visuals. For me, I feel like the last many years of WWDC, there's been a design

00:28:40   language to the visuals which could be applied across a bunch of media. This feels less so.

00:28:47   This feels like it would be more complicated. You know, when they did the Memoji before,

00:28:52   they did the neon emoji thing, and neon Memoji thing, and they've done a bunch of stuff over

00:28:58   the years where it feels like they could take that design language and it would be easily

00:29:01   applied to things. They have two versions of it. They have one which is like an arch

00:29:07   and one which is like a visual representation of Apple Park in the style. And the Swift

00:29:14   student challenge has kind of got this look to it. It's got that kind of like bubbled

00:29:18   oil and water kind of vibe.

00:29:21   And in the past, this art has suggested the art design for the conference as a whole,

00:29:30   as they, it echoes through everything.

00:29:32   So we'll see if this carries through

00:29:33   with all their other materials,

00:29:34   everything that's on slides, the whole, you know,

00:29:36   the whole thing they do.

00:29:38   - You put something in our show notes that I think-

00:29:41   - I did.

00:29:42   - Meant that you were pretty upset, which is-

00:29:44   - Yeah, I'm fired up, Mike.

00:29:46   I'm fired up.

00:29:46   - I figured.

00:29:47   I will read from a Yahoo Finance article.

00:29:51   General Motors plans to phase out Apple CarPlay

00:29:55   and Android Auto technology,

00:29:57   shifting instead to built-in infotainment systems developed through Google for future

00:30:02   electric vehicles. Buyers of GM EVs with the new system will get access to Google Maps

00:30:07   and Assistant, a voice command system at no extra cost for eight years, GM said. GM said

00:30:12   the future infotainment systems will also offer applications such as Spotify, Audible

00:30:17   and others.

00:30:18   A couple of quotes from people at GM. "We don't want to design these features in a

00:30:23   in a way that they are dependent on a person

00:30:25   having a cell phone,

00:30:27   and we do believe there are subscription revenue

00:30:30   opportunities for us.

00:30:31   So that second one is why they're doing this.

00:30:33   That first one is bananas.

00:30:35   Who buys an electric car in 2023

00:30:38   and doesn't own a cell phone?

00:30:41   - So look, I will point people back

00:30:43   to the upgrade verticals.

00:30:45   Last summer, I talked to Sam Abu El-Samed,

00:30:47   about who's a car industry expert and an upgradian,

00:30:50   about this.

00:30:51   And the truth is you can't have a car

00:30:53   that can't be operated without a cell phone, right?

00:30:56   Because there are lots of scenarios.

00:30:58   You might lose your cell phone.

00:30:59   You might have somebody borrow your car, right?

00:31:01   You can't not.

00:31:05   But to have it be sort of like,

00:31:07   well, we have to build an entire thing

00:31:10   and block everybody's phone interface

00:31:13   in order to make it all safe is, it's BS.

00:31:16   Subscription revenue opportunities,

00:31:17   I'll point out GM is also the creator of OnStar,

00:31:20   which is an old system where they charge you a monthly fee

00:31:23   in order to have like a cellular connection

00:31:26   and be able to call for help

00:31:27   and it had a GPS and all that.

00:31:28   Like they're very good at the monetizing of people

00:31:31   over time with their cars.

00:31:32   So that's definitely going on here.

00:31:35   I'll tell you what I'm not mad about

00:31:37   is that they're apparently basing this on Android Automotive

00:31:40   because that's fine.

00:31:41   Android Automotive is a low level thing as the story says.

00:31:47   - Which is, it's not Android Auto.

00:31:49   They are different things, which is always confusing.

00:31:53   - And they're not gonna support Android Auto,

00:31:55   which is also bananas.

00:31:56   It's Android automotive based,

00:31:57   so it's open source with Google stuff on top of it.

00:32:00   And it's a low level thing that's built into a car.

00:32:02   It's not mirroring from your device.

00:32:05   It's built into the car.

00:32:07   I like the fact that they say,

00:32:09   at no extra cost for eight years,

00:32:11   that's a suggestion that they're building in, I guess,

00:32:14   some cellular data service

00:32:16   that you will just get for eight years

00:32:18   when you buy your car,

00:32:19   which is good, that it will have navigation.

00:32:22   That's good, right?

00:32:23   Like everybody really does rely

00:32:25   on essentially internet navigation.

00:32:29   And so to have that for eight years when you buy your car,

00:32:31   I think is a good, without them having to upsell you

00:32:33   or saying, sorry, your in-car navigation now doesn't work,

00:32:36   especially since they're gonna integrate it

00:32:38   with presumably self-navigation features of various kinds.

00:32:42   Okay, my problem, oh, and by the way,

00:32:45   the other part that made me mad is

00:32:47   they will offer other applications,

00:32:48   such as Spotify, Audible and other services.

00:32:51   Okay, here's the thing.

00:32:53   So GM's basically saying, look, don't worry about it.

00:32:56   We're gonna have all the same stuff

00:32:57   that's on your smartphones in our app platform.

00:33:00   So don't worry about it.

00:33:01   It's gonna be fine.

00:33:03   This is frustrating because first off,

00:33:06   the arrogance of this whole move, right?

00:33:07   'Cause this is, and this is not the first, right?

00:33:10   Because there are other companies that are like this too.

00:33:12   They're saying, look, we, your car company,

00:33:14   are gonna be the ones who build the software for your car.

00:33:17   It's just gonna be us again.

00:33:18   I know there was that brief moment

00:33:20   where your cell phone operating system platform owner

00:33:24   was building the great interface

00:33:26   for your infotainment system,

00:33:27   but we don't like that, we want it back.

00:33:29   So we're gonna build it.

00:33:30   But don't worry, it'll be best in class.

00:33:32   Everybody's gonna be not falling over themselves

00:33:34   to build an app for the GM EV platform.

00:33:39   They're all gonna be there.

00:33:42   And I think to myself, well, like I use Overcast for podcasts

00:33:45   that's not gonna be there.

00:33:47   I use Apple Music, not Spotify.

00:33:48   Is that gonna be there?

00:33:50   And the larger point is like,

00:33:53   I can get behind the idea that, well, look,

00:33:55   for the best experience,

00:33:56   and if you're using our auto navigation,

00:33:58   you really ought to use our navigation system,

00:34:01   which is based on Google Maps.

00:34:02   It's like, great, fine.

00:34:04   And Google Assistant.

00:34:05   That's all fine.

00:34:07   But to block CarPlay and Android Auto entirely,

00:34:12   not only is that frustrating because like,

00:34:15   I feel like me and like everybody else in the world,

00:34:19   our smartphone is not only a thing that we update

00:34:22   way more often than our car,

00:34:23   but like it's a very personal thing.

00:34:24   It's got our data, it's got our settings,

00:34:26   it's got our preferences, and it's got our apps.

00:34:28   And we choose apps based on it being

00:34:32   on our phone generally, right?

00:34:33   That's why we choose it.

00:34:35   And the beauty of Apple CarPlay and Android Auto

00:34:38   is that when I'm in a car and I've got a thing

00:34:42   that's playing in an audio book app of my choice

00:34:45   or a music app of my choice or a podcast app of my choice,

00:34:50   I can control it in a nice way

00:34:54   instead of having to reach for my phone.

00:34:56   And there's a let them eat cake moment in this thing too

00:34:59   where they say basically like,

00:35:01   for other things use Bluetooth.

00:35:03   And it's like Bluetooth sucks, right?

00:35:05   Like Bluetooth is,

00:35:07   I don't have carplay on my cars.

00:35:10   So, you know, this is, so I've never had that.

00:35:13   Jamie's got it on hers, but now that car is with her

00:35:18   in Oregon, so I don't get to use it anymore.

00:35:20   But like, and I've used it on rentals and all that,

00:35:22   and it's really nice.

00:35:23   The problem, then I come home and our cars don't have it,

00:35:27   is like, oh, you're listening in Overcast,

00:35:29   and you'd like to choose a different podcast,

00:35:31   or you'd like to skip a chapter, or,

00:35:34   and it's like, well, too bad, too bad.

00:35:37   Bluetooth is, Bluetooth will let you skip 30 seconds,

00:35:40   maybe if you're lucky.

00:35:41   And we might show the album art depending on

00:35:43   when your car was manufactured.

00:35:45   And then a 2012 car, it's a little shaky,

00:35:49   might not show the album art.

00:35:51   So the fact like, this is GM saying,

00:35:56   we're better than Apple and Google at this.

00:35:59   We're gonna say what apps you use in your car.

00:36:02   And we're gonna make, essentially what they're saying is,

00:36:06   our interests are more important than your interests here.

00:36:09   And the navigation thing is a dodge, which is, is that a GM?

00:36:12   I think that's not a GM.

00:36:13   I think that's Chrysler.

00:36:15   They're dodging the issue.

00:36:17   They're saying, "Oh, but we need it for navigation."

00:36:20   It's like, yeah, you don't need to prevent me

00:36:23   from listening to my podcast

00:36:25   the way I want to listen for navigation.

00:36:27   You don't need that.

00:36:28   You could very easily say,

00:36:30   if you wanna use our in-car navigation things,

00:36:33   you can't use Apple Maps on your phone.

00:36:36   You need to use the in-car navigation.

00:36:38   You could just do that and it would be fine.

00:36:41   But you're like, no, they must never see it.

00:36:43   They must never see something else.

00:36:44   And like, you know, so chances are,

00:36:46   they're basically saying, look,

00:36:47   do you wanna listen to podcasts and buy a GM EV in 2025?

00:36:52   You're gonna need to use the podcast app

00:36:53   that we decided was okay,

00:36:55   and put, that somebody put on our platform.

00:36:58   And otherwise you can't.

00:36:59   It's just so infuriating and arrogant,

00:37:03   because again, this is, I'll bring in Tesla and Rivian

00:37:08   as examples of car companies that are like,

00:37:10   won't do CarPlay and won't do Android Auto.

00:37:14   And the arrogance is sort of like, no, no, no, no, no, no,

00:37:16   we're the best.

00:37:17   Who better at designing a touch screen based

00:37:20   software platform than a car company?

00:37:23   And that's the whole point of Android Auto

00:37:25   and CarPlay is not you, right?

00:37:30   My cell phone provider that I get a new phone every year

00:37:33   or two and is updating the software all the time

00:37:36   and has a rich app library, that's who I wanna go with

00:37:41   and who I care about.

00:37:42   And I appreciate that you're my car

00:37:45   and you wanna do stuff for me.

00:37:47   And if you do stuff for me in certain ways, that's great.

00:37:49   But my smartphone means something to me.

00:37:53   It's important to me.

00:37:54   And when Apple did their weird

00:37:56   next generation car play announcement at WWDC last year,

00:37:59   they had that statement about how like what,

00:38:01   75% of the people who buy new cars in the United States

00:38:04   said that carplay was a must for them, essentially,

00:38:09   that they needed to have carplay.

00:38:11   - Well, it was important.

00:38:12   - It was important to them in some way.

00:38:14   This is GM saying, yes, but if you want our cars,

00:38:16   you've got to give it up,

00:38:17   which really seems like a self-inflicted wound here.

00:38:20   But again, this really has the scent of two things.

00:38:23   It is a, somebody somewhere in the corporate structure said,

00:38:27   we want to lock this down.

00:38:29   We're going to lock them out.

00:38:30   We don't want, cell phones are competing with the car

00:38:32   for people's interests and the car should win.

00:38:36   Which is bananas.

00:38:37   And then two is, how do we upsell them

00:38:40   if it's all on board their phone?

00:38:42   We wanna control that like we did with OnStar.

00:38:44   We wanna build in all sorts of things.

00:38:47   So when a person in their 70s

00:38:50   who's not even driving their car anymore,

00:38:52   but it's a Pontiac or whatever, and it's in the garage,

00:38:55   and this is what happened with my mother.

00:38:57   And they're paying OnStar $30, $20 every single month

00:39:02   in case they get in a car accident and it'll,

00:39:05   I mean, it's like, but your phone does that now too.

00:39:07   And they're like, all right,

00:39:08   we need to refresh this technology and find another way

00:39:11   to suck 20 or $30 or $40 or whatever every month

00:39:14   out of everybody who buys our car.

00:39:18   We want that money.

00:39:19   And that's the other motivator here.

00:39:21   So it's very frustrating.

00:39:22   I feel like it didn't need to be this way.

00:39:24   It immediately makes me not interested

00:39:27   in buying GM vehicles for GM EVs, right?

00:39:31   Like immediately.

00:39:32   It's like, it's such a self-inflicted wound.

00:39:35   'Cause all you need to say is,

00:39:37   sure, you can bring in your phone for that.

00:39:40   But like for the nav

00:39:41   and for some other amazing innovative things we're doing,

00:39:43   you're gonna need to use the onboard.

00:39:44   But yeah, you can plug in your phone for your music

00:39:48   or your apps or whatever, like we don't care.

00:39:50   And instead of like, no, mm-mm, mm-mm, stay away.

00:39:54   We're more important than your smartphone.

00:39:56   And that, if I have to boil it down,

00:39:58   that's the thing that drives me crazy about this.

00:40:00   for GM, for Tesla, for Rivian, for anybody who says

00:40:04   we don't want smartphone platforms in our car,

00:40:07   is they're so delusional that the car,

00:40:11   the in-car experience not only is gonna be as good

00:40:13   as those phones, 'cause it's not,

00:40:16   but that people have more affinity for their car screen

00:40:21   than the phone that they carry with them all day

00:40:25   and all night.

00:40:27   And like, it's just, it's delusional.

00:40:29   So what I'm saying is good luck GM, but it's bad.

00:40:34   That's my rant, I guess.

00:40:36   It's terrible.

00:40:37   What are they doing?

00:40:38   What a step backward.

00:40:39   I thought we had gone beyond this, but apparently not.

00:40:43   - I was wondering like, where is next generation carplay?

00:40:46   Like when I was preparing for the show today

00:40:48   and like I found out a call,

00:40:50   which maybe I'd forgotten about this

00:40:51   or probably wasn't paying attention to it specifically

00:40:54   'cause I have no car that would,

00:40:57   would have no intention of a car

00:40:59   that would support next generation carplay.

00:41:01   That they're not shipping until late 2023,

00:41:04   but they are car shipping this year

00:41:07   from a bunch of brands like Acura, Audi, the list goes on.

00:41:10   There's a bunch.

00:41:11   14 automakers will be shipping cars by the end of this year

00:41:15   with the next generation carplay.

00:41:17   I actually expect we will see more of this at WWDC this year.

00:41:22   They'll show it off in a little bit more detail.

00:41:24   Maybe with some actual,

00:41:26   this is what it's gonna look like in this car

00:41:28   as opposed to like here's a car concept.

00:41:31   - And we speculated about this.

00:41:32   And when Sam was on last summer,

00:41:34   we speculated about it too.

00:41:36   There's sort of two ways that this could go.

00:41:38   I think the most likely scenario is that there's like,

00:41:41   either there's an API of some kind,

00:41:45   or Apple has literally done the work to connect

00:41:47   with every single car maker that's a partner,

00:41:50   to get access to the low level data

00:41:52   that's coming from the car

00:41:54   and display it in this next generation carplay.

00:41:56   I feel like that's the way they should do it.

00:41:59   I feel like it should be a collaboration

00:42:01   between the two companies

00:42:02   because there's only a limited amount of companies

00:42:04   that it can be.

00:42:05   - Yeah. - You know?

00:42:06   - They could build like an Android automotive

00:42:09   sort of low end thing, but Sam was very much like,

00:42:11   it doesn't sound like Apple and it would be a lot of work

00:42:14   and they're not gonna do it.

00:42:14   But what you could do is have,

00:42:17   so you go to Audi or whoever else and Nissan,

00:42:22   and you say, can your in-car real-time operating system

00:42:27   provide data live, you know, to us for us to display.

00:42:36   Or the other thing Sam talked about is,

00:42:39   or it's a theming thing where like,

00:42:41   we're gonna put up a box here with a speed

00:42:46   and you're gonna put the speed there, right?

00:42:49   Where it's like working with the cars in car system.

00:42:52   There's some different ways that they could do it.

00:42:54   But that's my guess too, is that it's like,

00:42:56   it's mega carplay, where it's like carplay

00:42:58   that's super integrated,

00:42:59   but it's not like running on the low level,

00:43:01   which means that if your phone's not there, it still works.

00:43:04   To GM's point about, we don't want our car to not work

00:43:08   when there's not a paired smartphone with it.

00:43:10   Like totally, you don't want that.

00:43:12   But then you wanna have it be this upgraded experience.

00:43:15   And yeah, I just, I find it fascinating the GM,

00:43:19   again, I think they're high on their own supply here.

00:43:21   is like, oh no, we don't need,

00:43:23   we don't need a CarPlay and Android Auto.

00:43:25   And this isn't just about CarPlay.

00:43:26   It's like, literally we don't need anybody

00:43:28   to connect their smartphone.

00:43:29   We have built our own bespoke automotive stack

00:43:34   and people are gonna love it.

00:43:36   It's like, even, and here's a prediction,

00:43:38   even if it's good when they ship it,

00:43:41   the other thing that's gonna happen

00:43:42   is it's never gonna advance at the same rate

00:43:44   as every other computing platform does.

00:43:47   And so it's gonna become old and boring and bad

00:43:51   when everybody else is zooming forward with new apps

00:43:53   and new features and stuff

00:43:54   that you would get to upgrade your car.

00:43:57   When you upgrade your phone right now,

00:43:58   you upgrade your car, right?

00:44:00   With CarPlay or Android Auto

00:44:01   and that won't be the case with this.

00:44:03   So I don't know what they're, again,

00:44:05   they're chasing incremental subscription revenue.

00:44:08   And also they just believe that people just love

00:44:12   their car platform, which is bananas, but there it is.

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00:46:41   Rumour round up Jason Snell.

00:46:43   Yeehaw!

00:46:44   Ming-Chi Kuo is not very optimistic about whether Apple can create its "iPhone moment"

00:46:51   with the headset and has subsequently delayed mass production to the middle to end of Q3.

00:46:59   Because of this, Kuo believes that this adds uncertainty as to whether Apple will be debuting

00:47:04   the device at WWDC.

00:47:06   It seems, I mean, we've been saying for a long time that in some ways WWDC is the perfect

00:47:13   place to unveil it because it's a new platform and they want developers to get on board.

00:47:20   And that because it's a new product that is not replacing an existing product, they can

00:47:24   pre-announce it.

00:47:25   So I'm not sure, I mean, at some point,

00:47:29   maybe we were expecting that they would announce it.

00:47:31   I don't know, announce a huge product like that

00:47:33   and then ship it immediately.

00:47:34   I sort of always expected that it would ship later.

00:47:36   So if it doesn't ship until the fall,

00:47:40   not only is that not unreasonable,

00:47:44   but it actually gives them a,

00:47:46   like with the Apple Watch,

00:47:47   it gives them a second event to introduce the product.

00:47:49   - I think that this has always been the plan.

00:47:51   I think that Quo has a piece of information

00:47:54   and is extrapolating,

00:47:55   and I don't think he's extrapolating correctly.

00:47:58   - All the information that he seems to have is

00:48:01   this isn't gonna ship in volume until later in the year.

00:48:04   - Yeah.

00:48:05   - And that doesn't seem unreasonable to me,

00:48:06   but then he's extrapolating,

00:48:07   oh, maybe they won't announce it.

00:48:08   And it's like, I don't know.

00:48:10   - I don't think that makes sense.

00:48:11   - It seems like this is the right time to announce it.

00:48:13   And then they say, look, again,

00:48:14   for those who have forgotten the lesson of,

00:48:17   what was it, 2014,

00:48:18   Apple announced the Apple Watch in September

00:48:24   and shipped it in what, April of the next year?

00:48:27   So you can do that.

00:48:29   Like you can only do it once, right?

00:48:31   You can't undercut that product the next time.

00:48:33   - They've always done it.

00:48:34   Every time they've had a brand new product category,

00:48:37   they always do it that way.

00:48:39   'Cause you can, there's no, what is it?

00:48:41   - 'Cause you can.

00:48:42   - What is the Sinclair effect?

00:48:45   - The Osborne effect. - That's it,

00:48:46   the Osborne effect.

00:48:47   So that was the idea of, there was the Osborne computer

00:48:50   and they had one available and they showed off

00:48:53   but better, more powerful model coming later.

00:48:55   - Right, our company's survival depends

00:48:57   on you buying the Osborne 1.

00:48:59   By the way, next year we'll have a much better computer,

00:49:01   the Osborne 2, and everyone's like,

00:49:03   well, we'll wait for that one.

00:49:04   And it's like, oh no, we're going to die.

00:49:07   Yeah. - So that's not a thing.

00:49:09   Considering the things we've been talking about recently,

00:49:12   like Apple showing it to the top 100 and that kind of stuff,

00:49:15   I can't imagine that something has happened

00:49:17   in the last couple of weeks where they're like,

00:49:19   well, we've got to change our plans completely.

00:49:21   Like, I just, I don't, you know,

00:49:23   and I was talking to a friend of the show,

00:49:25   one true John, John Voorhees about this,

00:49:27   and he mentioned, like, I made a good point of like,

00:49:29   when they showed off the original iPhone,

00:49:31   like all of the stories that have come since,

00:49:33   of like, that thing was holding on

00:49:35   with string and good wishes. - Oh yeah.

00:49:37   - That like, if Steve did things in the wrong order,

00:49:39   the demo would fail, right?

00:49:42   - Absolutely, no, they were sitting in the audience

00:49:44   going like, oh God, oh God, oh God, oh God,

00:49:46   and then, you know, it didn't do that, but,

00:49:49   and they undoubtedly had multiple backup phones on, right?

00:49:52   For like, oh well, let's go to this next one, right?

00:49:55   Because yeah, it wasn't, well, I mean,

00:49:58   I got to get my hands on one the next day or two days later

00:50:02   and several of the apps just weren't there, right?

00:50:07   Like my big memory is that I tapped on the Notes app

00:50:11   and an image, a screenshot of the Notes app appeared.

00:50:14   I was like, oh, okay. - Which I expect

00:50:16   if press gets to see the headset,

00:50:18   which I still think is an if, that's what it will be like.

00:50:21   Like you might not even be able to use it.

00:50:22   - I think it'll be, my guess is that it will be a demo.

00:50:26   Even if we get to try it, which is, I agree is a big if,

00:50:29   because of the, it's not quite the same thing

00:50:32   as like walking up and picking up a phone, right?

00:50:34   Like it's actually, if we get to try it,

00:50:36   I suspect it'll be like, you have a 15 minute window

00:50:39   at 3.45 to come and try it for 15,

00:50:42   you know, for those 15 minutes.

00:50:44   - And it's gonna walk through this set path.

00:50:46   and it's gonna be put it on

00:50:48   and you're gonna be in an environment

00:50:50   where they tell you to do stuff

00:50:51   or you turn around and look around

00:50:53   and they're like, okay, we're taking you

00:50:54   to the next environment.

00:50:55   But I don't think it's gonna be,

00:50:57   maybe it'll be a totally, again,

00:51:00   scripted walkthrough kind of thing.

00:51:02   Like when the Apple Watch, that first Apple Watch thing,

00:51:04   they're like, oh, but don't touch it.

00:51:07   And one of them was like, you can hold it

00:51:09   and it was running a loop.

00:51:11   It was like running a demo loop.

00:51:13   So you could see what it looked like on your wrist,

00:51:14   but it wasn't interactive.

00:51:16   it'll be something like that, right?

00:51:17   Where it'll be like, well, I tried it,

00:51:19   but 'cause it won't be ready.

00:51:21   - Yep, and don't forget the demo prerecorded, edited, right?

00:51:25   Like, it's like, even if they wanted to go back

00:51:30   to like presentations,

00:51:32   I don't think they'd do it with this one.

00:51:34   - No.

00:51:35   - You have so much lenience available to you in the demo

00:51:40   for this product.

00:51:41   Nothing can go wrong because you can just edit it.

00:51:44   Like, we'll talk about what Mark Gurman had to say

00:51:47   about this, but he referenced when the iPhone 10 demo

00:51:50   and the face unlock didn't work.

00:51:52   - Right.

00:51:53   - And Craig had to change phone,

00:51:55   which I had completely forgotten about

00:51:57   until you mentioned that.

00:51:58   Well, like, that wouldn't happen with this

00:52:01   because it would be a prerecorded video

00:52:03   that they would have made, you know,

00:52:05   probably even the next couple of weeks or whatever.

00:52:07   And then you don't have to worry about any of that.

00:52:10   So speaking of which, Mark Gurman,

00:52:12   in his power on newsletter suggests that,

00:52:15   well, he still sounds very confident

00:52:18   that WWDC will be the debut,

00:52:20   quote from the newsletter,

00:52:21   "The showcase at WWDC will likely include

00:52:23   "the headset itself,

00:52:25   "but also its onboard XROS operating system,

00:52:28   "accompanying services, and perhaps most critically,

00:52:30   "a software development kit and platform

00:52:32   "that will let developers write new types of apps."

00:52:34   So like, this is it.

00:52:36   I feel like if they're not doing this now,

00:52:39   I kinda don't even know why they're doing WWDC this year.

00:52:42   "This is it. I would be flabbergasted if there is no headset."

00:52:48   Because they can just say, as I'm sure they will,

00:52:51   "Shipping later this year, that's it."

00:52:53   Or, "We'll have more to say later this year."

00:52:56   And that's kind of how they'll leave it.

00:52:59   But there'll be the development kit available.

00:53:01   - It also means they may,

00:53:03   'cause remember the QoW report is mass production.

00:53:06   When Marc says a software development kit and platform,

00:53:09   it's possible that there will be limited quantities

00:53:12   of headsets available with a version of,

00:53:16   maybe they're the real headsets,

00:53:18   hardware that developers will be able to attach to a Mac

00:53:23   and do development over the summer.

00:53:27   But they, in that, and you're like, well, won't that get out?

00:53:30   Well, it's like, well, sure it'll get out,

00:53:31   but if they aren't running the OS,

00:53:34   if they're literally set up to just run things

00:53:37   on a developer unit,

00:53:40   then you're not getting the full experience.

00:53:42   So they could go down that path

00:53:44   and still keep some delight

00:53:46   for when they actually ship the product.

00:53:48   So there's lots of options in play here.

00:53:50   'Cause I wonder about that too.

00:53:51   We talked about it.

00:53:53   How do you develop a VR app

00:53:54   without a VR piece of hardware?

00:53:58   Like you ultimately, you do need something,

00:54:01   whether that's there.

00:54:02   And it's a hard time,

00:54:03   since their hardware is so advanced,

00:54:05   it's a hard time.

00:54:06   I have a hard time imagining

00:54:07   that they're gonna say, oh yeah,

00:54:08   just use someone else's hardware in the meantime.

00:54:11   - It won't work.

00:54:12   Everything we've heard about what they're doing,

00:54:15   nobody else is doing it the way they're doing it.

00:54:17   No one else has, if it works, right,

00:54:20   if it works how it's supposed to,

00:54:22   nobody's got hardware that is as good as this.

00:54:25   - Yeah, so that'll be something else to watch.

00:54:28   - The closest might be PlayStation in some things.

00:54:30   If you did like a, which obviously would not work, right,

00:54:33   'cause the processing's on the PS5,

00:54:36   but like yeah so there isn't really anybody that can do this so there's no other way to

00:54:41   test it.

00:54:43   So basically I expect Ninjiquo is correct in what he's saying that there is a potential

00:54:50   they want to hold it a little bit longer before producing them maybe they have something else

00:54:53   they want to do to the hardware to make it more reliable make it better or whatever but

00:54:57   I don't think that changes Apple showing it all off during WWDC.

00:55:03   Mark Gurman is also reporting that WatchOS 10

00:55:06   will feature, quote, "Notable changes to the user interface

00:55:09   marking a fairly extensive upgrade for the Apple Watch."

00:55:14   - Interesting, and he says,

00:55:15   because the Apple Watch itself

00:55:17   isn't gonna change very much, so.

00:55:18   (laughs)

00:55:19   - Which I just can't, it hurts me.

00:55:22   I've decided now, when I get my next Apple Watch,

00:55:25   which I will get a new watch in September,

00:55:29   I will go to the Ultra.

00:55:31   I'm hoping and expecting there will be another Apple Watch Ultra and then I will upgrade to that one.

00:55:36   Because at this point I have to have something different because I just can't

00:55:42   keep I can't stand the the same design of the Apple Watch consistently forever.

00:55:46   So I really want an Ultra now but I'm just not going to do it in like April.

00:55:56   like I'm not gonna do that so I'm just gonna wait. So what what what does an extensive app a watchOS

00:56:02   I don't know update look like and I what I keep thinking is it's got to be a major interface

00:56:11   change right so it's... I don't even know what that what that could like what could you do?

00:56:15   Well I so just off the top of my head and this will be good draft fodder I guess um off the top

00:56:23   on the top of my head, well, there is the letting people

00:56:28   build third-party watch faces or parts of watch faces,

00:56:32   right, like more dynamic, like could you build watch faces

00:56:37   out of, like, okay, I get the fear of third-party

00:56:40   watch faces, maybe they don't go there, but maybe they do.

00:56:42   But I start to think about like ways you could fudge it,

00:56:45   where you could say like, a watch face development kit,

00:56:48   and you get, and it's like a Lego set, right,

00:56:51   where it's like, you get to use--

00:56:52   - It's CarPlay for Apple Watch.

00:56:55   - And these locations, and well, it's like,

00:56:57   you can build, David Smith, you can build your own watch face

00:57:01   but you need to build it out of the parts

00:57:03   that we give you, right?

00:57:05   We're not gonna let you use random parts.

00:57:08   You have to use our parts, which would be frustrating

00:57:10   but it might lead to better watch faces

00:57:12   than the stock watch faces, depending on what they do there.

00:57:15   Or they could just say, sure, open it up.

00:57:17   - Tell me, like, how different would that be to Swift UI?

00:57:21   Like, isn't that kind of what SwiftUI is?

00:57:24   - Yeah, I mean, this is the question, right?

00:57:27   Like, I feel like they could just go there.

00:57:29   I mean, David Smith is,

00:57:30   this is the annoying thing about David,

00:57:31   is that he has shown us that like,

00:57:34   here's how you build a watch face on Apple Watch,

00:57:36   a custom watch face,

00:57:37   and he builds them as apps for fun, 'cause he's like that.

00:57:40   But like, he shows that you can do it.

00:57:42   And I think also he shows that you could do it,

00:57:45   but it's hard.

00:57:46   And also there's nothing stopping Apple from saying

00:57:48   they go in the app store and they have to be approved, right?

00:57:50   So if people are like, oh, well,

00:57:51   they're gonna just do things that violate copyright

00:57:53   and stuff like that.

00:57:54   Well, they could say, look,

00:57:55   we have a very strict policy about watch faces

00:57:57   and it's gonna be analyzed, but we're gonna let you do it.

00:58:00   Or use the watch face developer kit.

00:58:02   Those are options.

00:58:03   Off the top of my head, some other thoughts I had.

00:58:05   Complications, right?

00:58:07   What about more dynamic complications?

00:58:10   Having the ability to one,

00:58:11   have your complications change based on content

00:58:14   or based on time of day or something like that.

00:58:17   That would be interesting.

00:58:19   What if they were interactive?

00:58:21   So the ability to tap on a complication

00:58:24   and get like a little quick thing that popped up

00:58:26   that gave you more information or let you jump into an app

00:58:29   or do a response or something like that.

00:58:31   That might be an interesting way to go.

00:58:33   I keep thinking about stuff like that.

00:58:35   Like differences to watch faces,

00:58:37   differences to complications,

00:58:39   differences to app launching, I don't know,

00:58:43   notifications, I'm not sure.

00:58:45   it feels like the core watch experience is the face.

00:58:49   And so if they're gonna do an overhaul,

00:58:51   it would be like the conception of the face.

00:58:54   And the other option is like,

00:58:55   maybe the apps are gonna get a lot more power.

00:58:57   That's the other thought I had is maybe they,

00:58:59   maybe when they're overhauling the OS,

00:59:02   it really is like saying,

00:59:04   we're going to give watchOS apps a lot more ability

00:59:09   than they currently have

00:59:10   and make it a little more iPhone-like

00:59:13   and it's independence and it's power.

00:59:15   but that's just all off the top of my head.

00:59:17   I still think it comes back to faces and complications

00:59:20   'cause that's the core of the whole device.

00:59:23   - One of the things that a lot of people were talking about

00:59:26   with the original Apple Watch reviews

00:59:28   is that Apple didn't really do much in watchOS

00:59:31   to take advantage of the larger screen

00:59:32   and the kind of slightly different screen shape.

00:59:35   I was wondering if potentially the Apple Watch Ultra

00:59:38   was a big enough hit that it prompted them to look at

00:59:42   how could we tweak and adapt the watchOS look and feel

00:59:47   for that device.

00:59:48   And or like the Apple watchOS team maybe didn't know

00:59:52   about the device, like maybe some of the UI designers

00:59:56   didn't know and then when they saw it,

00:59:57   they were like, oh, we could do this, we could do that.

00:59:59   I don't know if there would be enough time

01:00:01   for them to have made those changes, but possibly.

01:00:03   But that could be maybe part of it.

01:00:05   But yeah, I agree with you, the biggest changes should be

01:00:08   in what people are seeing on their watch.

01:00:11   Like that's the main use.

01:00:12   There is a lot of user interface in the watch, right?

01:00:15   But the majority of it is the watch face

01:00:17   and the complications.

01:00:18   And if they can make changes there,

01:00:20   'cause really through the apps,

01:00:22   I don't know how much you could realistically change.

01:00:25   There's just not a lot of screen

01:00:27   to make a bunch of UI change.

01:00:29   - Right.

01:00:30   - But it would be cool to see more.

01:00:33   I mean, yes, watch faces is what I want

01:00:35   because I think that there are people in the world

01:00:38   that could do a better job.

01:00:40   and I would like to see what they could do.

01:00:42   - Yeah, and complications again, I love,

01:00:46   like apps on the watch are fine, you're right.

01:00:50   Like what more could they do?

01:00:51   They could have more power.

01:00:53   But what I really love about apps is that apps shine through

01:00:57   into watch faces, right?

01:00:59   Like that's the power.

01:01:01   That's my favorite thing about the Apple Watch is in theory,

01:01:05   you have an app that you care about,

01:01:07   but you're not running that app

01:01:08   on the Apple Watch all the time.

01:01:09   It's there if you need it, but it's not really running most of the time, but it's shining

01:01:14   through a little complication spot on your watch face.

01:01:19   That's where, for my money, that's where the magic happens.

01:01:22   So anything they can do to make that better, whether it's more dynamic, more interactive,

01:01:28   or just updated more, like, let's do that.

01:01:33   Because I think that is the real secret sauce about the Apple Watch, is picking your own

01:01:39   on complications and having the data from apps show up

01:01:42   in the right place, the way you want it,

01:01:44   at the right time too, which it kind of doesn't right now.

01:01:46   Like it doesn't do that.

01:01:48   And I know that there's a lot of complexity

01:01:49   that goes into that.

01:01:50   How do you say, I want this thing to show during the day

01:01:53   and this thing to show at night or whatever.

01:01:55   But like, I would love the ability to have

01:02:00   my complications change based on the data

01:02:03   and the complications, for example.

01:02:04   Like the classic one that we've said before is,

01:02:08   I want to see my timers when I've got a timer running,

01:02:12   but I don't want a timer icon on my watch face

01:02:17   all the time, right?

01:02:19   That's a context thing, but you can't do that.

01:02:22   - I feel like in the Western kind of setting

01:02:27   that the River Roundhut takes place.

01:02:29   - Corral, it's kind of a corral.

01:02:31   - We should maybe have like a lake,

01:02:33   which is called like display lake or something like that.

01:02:36   - Oh, I see. - 'Cause we spend a lot

01:02:37   of time talking about displays now.

01:02:40   - It's the display meadow. - Yeah.

01:02:41   - Like it's right over there, it's where the horses are.

01:02:43   It's the display meadow. - Display meadow looks like

01:02:46   the meadow from the Windows XP desktop.

01:02:49   That's how those things tie together.

01:02:51   Reports from-- - More cactuses.

01:02:52   - Beelac and Ross Young suggest that while Apple is focused

01:02:56   on an OLED iPad Pro, they are also working

01:03:00   on a 13-inch OLED MacBook Air,

01:03:03   possibly not shipping until 2026.

01:03:06   it's expected that this would be the first OLED laptop.

01:03:10   Now my question on this is,

01:03:12   if the rumors we've been talking about

01:03:14   over the last couple of weeks

01:03:15   suggest that OLED's going to make the iPad Pro

01:03:18   like two times more expensive,

01:03:20   what would that do to the MacBook Air?

01:03:23   - I don't know.

01:03:23   - And why would they go that route?

01:03:25   So, - I don't know.

01:03:26   - Ming-Chi Kuo says,

01:03:27   compared to mini LED, laptops that use OLEDs

01:03:30   have the advantage of being thinner and lighter

01:03:32   and offering more diverse form factor design options,

01:03:35   which like, okay, that makes sense why you would want

01:03:39   that technology in that device,

01:03:41   but if it's going to make the price more expensive,

01:03:46   I don't see it, you know, unless there's this,

01:03:50   you know, there's this rumored breakthrough,

01:03:52   but even then it was said it probably wasn't gonna make

01:03:55   that much of a difference, so like I just,

01:03:57   I can't work out why a MacBook Air would get an OLED screen

01:04:01   if it's going to increase the price on a device

01:04:04   where they struggle when it comes to pricing anyway.

01:04:08   - Right, in our inflationary era,

01:04:10   it may just be that we will never see a new MacBook Air

01:04:14   for 999, right?

01:04:15   - Yeah.

01:04:16   - But I wonder about this one, like at some point,

01:04:20   you can't have a whole stack of MacBook Airs

01:04:23   with various prices ranging from,

01:04:26   well, I mean, I guess you can, but it seems weird to me,

01:04:29   prices ranging from 999 up to like, what, 1999?

01:04:33   I think that's the question is the MacBook Air

01:04:34   is very popular, but one of the reasons it's popular

01:04:37   is because it's cheaper than the MacBook Pro.

01:04:40   And then you stick an OLED in it

01:04:41   and it makes it more expensive.

01:04:43   Like I can see that being an option

01:04:45   or being a different product.

01:04:47   Like maybe that's the MacBook.

01:04:49   But like to have the MacBook Air be way more expensive

01:04:56   is that seems weird to me,

01:04:58   but we may end up in a scenario where that happens, right?

01:05:00   Where there's like an M3 MacBook Air

01:05:02   that looks like the one we've currently got.

01:05:04   And then there's an M4 MacBook Air that's OLED,

01:05:06   but it starts like $400 higher still.

01:05:10   And that's just how it works from now on

01:05:13   is you pay more for the OLED model.

01:05:15   - But then what's a MacBook Pro?

01:05:16   You know what I mean?

01:05:17   I get that point.

01:05:18   - I know also the, I get that thinner and lighter is good.

01:05:22   The diverse form factor design options line here

01:05:27   fascinates me 'cause like the rumor that they're working

01:05:30   on MacBook Pros with OLED, that makes more sense to me

01:05:33   if they're with OLED and touchscreen and convertible,

01:05:38   like maybe there's something there.

01:05:40   But in a MacBook Air, I don't know.

01:05:43   Unless again, the MacBook Air that they're going for

01:05:46   is a convertible.

01:05:47   Maybe the MacBook Air is so thin and light

01:05:49   that it's just a screen.

01:05:51   - My concern is that like, maybe Apple don't understand

01:05:54   why the MacBook Air is so successful.

01:05:56   And they think people love MacBook Air,

01:05:58   but I don't think people love MacBook Air.

01:06:00   People love a Mac laptop that's under $1,000.

01:06:04   - Yes.

01:06:05   - Like they're not in love with the brand.

01:06:06   Like they're in like that brand MacBook Air.

01:06:10   They're in love with, can I get an Apple laptop,

01:06:13   which I want an Apple laptop,

01:06:14   but I don't want to spend $1,500 for it.

01:06:18   - Yep, yep.

01:06:19   I agree.

01:06:20   My fear is that, is exactly what you said,

01:06:26   which is that Apple doesn't really understand

01:06:29   some aspects of its own success.

01:06:31   My hope is that these rumors are all about Apple

01:06:35   actually making changes.

01:06:36   Like these are their next moves on the Mac laptop,

01:06:39   which is the incredibly important,

01:06:41   most important part of the Mac, right?

01:06:43   And that we're not seeing the whole picture

01:06:46   and that there is a real, I mean, right?

01:06:48   Like I doubt that this is scattershot.

01:06:50   There's a strategy here.

01:06:51   It's just hard to see what the strategy is right now.

01:06:54   You know, there was, um, so David in the, in the discord is asking, like, I really

01:06:58   wonder what the sales split is between the M1 and the M2, there was a story that

01:07:02   I excluded from Rumour Roundup today, because it kind of felt like it was really

01:07:06   in the weeds.

01:07:07   Um, I don't know if you'd seen it, but it was that at the beginning of the year,

01:07:11   Apple cut M2 manufacturing for like six weeks.

01:07:17   They just didn't make any.

01:07:17   And then it came back in February and they are making 50% less.

01:07:24   M2 chips than they were before.

01:07:26   And that's the entire M2 line of chips.

01:07:29   And it's because of there being less demand

01:07:32   in consumer PCs, but it doesn't talk about the M1,

01:07:37   which is still in the original MacBook Air.

01:07:40   - Right.

01:07:41   I do wonder.

01:07:42   I do wonder about that.

01:07:44   9.99 is a pretty great price for a pretty great laptop,

01:07:49   even though it's not the latest and greatest.

01:07:51   Then again, it's also that trick

01:07:53   where you bring everybody in the door for $9.99

01:07:55   and then you try to upsell them.

01:07:56   But I also know that I'm sure they've got partners, right?

01:07:58   It's education especially where, you know,

01:08:01   they're not gonna go higher.

01:08:04   So you better keep selling them the M1,

01:08:06   which is a fantastic computer.

01:08:08   It's just not, and in fact, if you're in an environment

01:08:11   where you've got a lot of older MacBook Airs,

01:08:13   it looks like them, right?

01:08:14   It behaves like them, it looks like them,

01:08:16   even though it's Apple Silicon,

01:08:18   whereas the M2 is different.

01:08:20   So it actually kind of fits in and it's $9.99

01:08:22   and education prices even lower.

01:08:26   We've spoken about the iPhone 15 Pro possibly losing its physical volume buttons and mute

01:08:31   switches in favor of capacitive ones.

01:08:34   A MacRumors source is reporting that users will be able to customize the pressure sensitivity

01:08:40   of these new capacitive buttons so that they would still work more reliably with cases

01:08:45   and while wearing gloves.

01:08:46   "The new capacitive buttons will detect presses, holds, and respond to various levels

01:08:51   of pressure via the use of a new force touch style mechanism and taptic engine feedback.

01:08:57   This is something I was worried about or thinking about, like it might be difficult for people of

01:09:01   like you know the home button when they put that passive home button. It just didn't work if you

01:09:06   had gloves on unless you had those like very particular type of gloves right those like ones

01:09:12   that would work that way. Which is dumb because the pressure sensitivity should be enough right

01:09:17   that should be, is that it shouldn't require

01:09:21   both a type of capacitive,

01:09:23   like it should be the pressure response should do it.

01:09:25   Although I get you don't want a false press,

01:09:27   but like a physical button can have a false press too.

01:09:30   What troubles me about this report is the idea

01:09:34   that users will be able to customize

01:09:37   the pressure sensitivity.

01:09:38   That sounds terrible to me.

01:09:40   - But it might be a thing that you might have to do.

01:09:44   - But this is what I'm saying is,

01:09:45   but yeah, but if I have to do that,

01:09:46   then they blew it, right?

01:09:47   Like what needs to happen is if I put it in a case

01:09:50   and the case adds some pressure,

01:09:52   like the software should be like,

01:09:54   even if the software needs interaction,

01:09:56   the software should be like,

01:09:57   oh, it looks like my button's being pressed down.

01:10:00   Should we adjust it?

01:10:02   Or it should just adjust it and not even ask you.

01:10:05   But if you end up having to go into a setting

01:10:08   to adjust the sensitivity, that seems like a real loss.

01:10:13   That's a big boo-boo.

01:10:15   - It won't bother me because I don't use a case

01:10:17   on my iPhone.

01:10:18   - I don't use a case either, but we're monsters, yeah.

01:10:20   - You are in favor though of the idea

01:10:24   of the iPhone action button.

01:10:26   - Yeah, I was delighted to listen to "Connected"

01:10:28   a couple of weeks ago and Federico went on this path

01:10:30   where he was like, "Oh, Mike, they're gonna do this thing.

01:10:33   And what does it mean?"

01:10:34   And I'm sitting there listening to this thinking,

01:10:36   it means that there's an action button.

01:10:38   And at the very end of his whole thing, he was like,

01:10:40   yeah, or maybe it's a programmable thing

01:10:41   like an action button.

01:10:42   I'm like, ah, Federico, you got there,

01:10:45   but I just decided to write that column anyway,

01:10:48   'cause Federico didn't write it

01:10:49   and I wanted to put it out there basically saying,

01:10:52   I like, I know there are people,

01:10:53   I saw some people on Mastodon who are like,

01:10:55   but I can reach into my pocket

01:10:56   and feel the position of the Switch exactly

01:10:58   and know that it's silenced.

01:10:59   - I'm one of those people.

01:11:01   - I can never remember which one it is,

01:11:03   so I always flip it and then flip it back on

01:11:06   and hear the buzz, feel the buzz and go, okay, now it's on.

01:11:09   And two, mine is always on, my phone is always silenced.

01:11:14   So it's kind of a waste for that thing for me to be there.

01:11:19   And while I don't wanna take it away

01:11:21   from people who really care about it,

01:11:23   I would love for that to be replaced by something

01:11:26   that I could assign something else to instead.

01:11:30   I think that would be great.

01:11:31   I don't know even what I would assign to it,

01:11:33   but I would love to be able to assign

01:11:36   a different something to that button.

01:11:39   Maybe it's the flashlight, maybe it's the camera.

01:11:41   I don't know, but something to that button,

01:11:43   because I never, my phone's always silent,

01:11:46   so I don't need to worry about the ring silent switch.

01:11:49   - If you enjoy this show,

01:11:53   and you would like more of this show,

01:11:54   which those two things feel like they go together,

01:11:56   you should subscribe to Upgrade Plus.

01:11:58   This is our membership that we offer.

01:12:00   Go to getupgradeplus.com and you can sign up

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01:12:14   These are sometimes challenges,

01:12:17   sometimes we talk about some stuff going on

01:12:18   behind the scenes, sometimes we talk about some other things

01:12:21   going on in our tech lives.

01:12:23   So Jason's gonna be talking about some smart home stuff

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01:12:27   We're gonna talk about that in Upgrade Plus today.

01:12:29   But when you sign up for Upgrade Plus,

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01:13:45   to finish out today's show.

01:13:48   Anonymous asks, "Could you explain what podcasters

01:13:52   currently mean by saying a quote,

01:13:55   "downturn in the ad market."

01:13:57   "What is going on relative to an average year

01:14:00   "and has Relay FM been severely impacted?"

01:14:03   That phrase, I don't know who said downturn in the ad market

01:14:06   but everyone's saying the words like this,

01:14:09   like downturn into something.

01:14:10   I think a minute ago I said downturn in the PC market,

01:14:13   Like this just downturn, like economic headwinds,

01:14:16   these things have just come together.

01:14:18   So I guess I'd probably be best to talk about this.

01:14:22   However, I don't run advertising at Relay FM anymore.

01:14:25   We recently promoted Carrie,

01:14:28   who was originally my assistant many years ago.

01:14:30   She is now the chief advertising officer at Relay FM

01:14:33   and is now running advertising, which is great for me

01:14:36   because I get to focus more on the content,

01:14:38   which is wonderful,

01:14:40   but I am still very involved in the business.

01:14:43   So basically, it's kind of weird right now.

01:14:48   So advertising is harder at the moment,

01:14:50   but not like in a beginning of the pandemic kind of hard.

01:14:55   So when the pandemic hit,

01:14:57   everybody was canceling their deals

01:14:59   because nobody knew if their businesses

01:15:01   would still be around.

01:15:03   Nobody would know what they should be spending their money

01:15:06   on should they be using their advertising budgets

01:15:08   to pay their people.

01:15:09   So it was like cancel, cancel, cancel,

01:15:11   and it was difficult.

01:15:12   But at the moment, there is either,

01:15:16   depending on where you live, there is a recession

01:15:18   or there's threat of recession.

01:15:20   And especially like, you know, a lot of our shows

01:15:22   and just podcasting in general tends to have

01:15:24   pretty techy focused companies that do the advertising.

01:15:29   Like, you know, even a lot of the direct to consumer

01:15:32   companies, you know, like your mattresses and stuff, right?

01:15:36   They tend to be pretty tech focused.

01:15:38   And so maybe a little bit more hesitant

01:15:40   of spending right now.

01:15:42   So what we are seeing is it is not potential catastrophe

01:15:47   like we saw during COVID,

01:15:50   but advertising is just harder to come by right now.

01:15:55   And across Real AFM,

01:15:56   certain shows are impacted by it more than others,

01:16:00   but every show is feeling the impact in some way.

01:16:04   But at the moment, and I don't foresee this changing,

01:16:08   this is something that we'll be able

01:16:09   to weather perfectly fine.

01:16:11   What I will say is membership is wonderful here,

01:16:14   and it was why we created membership in the first place

01:16:16   because of the risk and the threat during COVID

01:16:19   where we not created, but revamped significantly

01:16:22   our membership program.

01:16:23   And that helps out a lot of your favorite shows.

01:16:25   And so please, if a show at Relay FM that you enjoy

01:16:28   has a membership program, consider it

01:16:30   because it helps the hosts.

01:16:32   But yeah, we're not, we haven't been severely impacted,

01:16:35   but we have definitely been impacted by this

01:16:38   and we continue to work through it.

01:16:40   So it's a thing that's happening, different shows, different networks, everybody's impacted

01:16:45   in their own way. We've done a lot of work to try and mitigate against potential risks

01:16:51   over the last few years, which is why I think that even though we're feeling a pinch right now,

01:16:56   it's, we're more than fine. So, but please do support memberships of your shows because it

01:17:03   really does help the hosts. That money doesn't go to Relay and Fam, it goes directly to the hosts.

01:17:08   So, you know, it is something that I know our hosts enjoy

01:17:12   and obviously, and it provides a level of comfort

01:17:16   and security, which I know I feel

01:17:18   with the memberships that I have,

01:17:19   it's made me feel more comfortable than, you know,

01:17:23   and less, I would be a lot more wired right now for myself

01:17:27   if it wasn't for the membership stuff, so.

01:17:30   - Do you have anything to add on this, Jason?

01:17:32   - I don't.

01:17:33   - That's fine, I mean, this is my world, right?

01:17:35   - This is your world, and I'll just say,

01:17:38   It happens.

01:17:40   - Yeah, this is what happens.

01:17:42   - Ad markets go up and down.

01:17:44   And the beauty of the membership thing

01:17:48   is that membership is much more constant.

01:17:51   And ad markets flow up and down.

01:17:53   And there are gonna be times when we have four ads

01:17:58   and a mic at the movies.

01:18:00   And there are gonna be times when we have two ads.

01:18:02   And that's, or fewer.

01:18:05   And that's just,

01:18:08   I would call it seasonal, but it's not quite seasonal.

01:18:10   It's just that happens.

01:18:13   - Although there is also seasonal changes too.

01:18:16   - Yeah, that's also true, right?

01:18:18   But there's the mega, like the trend of like,

01:18:22   just things come and go and it just happens, right?

01:18:27   And I've been through a bunch of those cycles

01:18:28   and it just, you know, it happens.

01:18:32   There's nothing you can do, but kind of soldier on.

01:18:35   - We've been running Relay for nine years this year.

01:18:37   And I've seen this happen a handful of times.

01:18:41   And I've also seen the seasonal stuff.

01:18:42   Like, a reason you may be hearing a lot of people

01:18:45   talk about this now is like,

01:18:46   so we've been running this company for nine years.

01:18:49   Every year for the last nine years,

01:18:50   April has been the month

01:18:52   where we have the least advertising spend,

01:18:54   like companies buying into ads.

01:18:57   I know, I feel like I know where this is.

01:18:59   April for a lot of companies

01:19:01   is the start of the financial year.

01:19:03   So a lot of companies don't have their budget set

01:19:05   when it comes to April.

01:19:07   But that's something that you need nine years of experience sometimes to understand.

01:19:11   So...

01:19:13   We're doing fine.

01:19:13   But thank you for your support.

01:19:16   Max says, "My wife and I recently purchased our first home.

01:19:19   The garage is going to become my new office, studio, game room... place.

01:19:24   I was wondering what advice and recommendations, Jason, you had for working and recording in a garage or non-ideal acoustic environment."

01:19:34   Well, my garage is actually a pretty good

01:19:36   acoustic environment.

01:19:37   So I don't know if I have a lot of advice.

01:19:40   What we have, it was bare wood at the top.

01:19:45   We insulated and the insulation is actually in

01:19:48   with these kind of like, it's almost like tarps.

01:19:52   It's plastic material that's taped.

01:19:53   As a result, there's no reflection off of the ceiling

01:19:56   and the ceiling is high.

01:19:58   I have some curtains that I hung mostly just to,

01:20:02   so I don't have to stare at the storage

01:20:04   that's the other part of our garage,

01:20:05   but curtains are great for this.

01:20:07   Putting stuff, furniture, stuff on the walls,

01:20:11   anything that like makes the echo deflect or soften,

01:20:16   books on bookshelves, things like that, that all helps.

01:20:19   - Carpets.

01:20:21   - Yeah, carpets on the floor.

01:20:22   All of these things are helpful in doing this.

01:20:28   And then, I mean, for,

01:20:31   And that's the acoustic environment.

01:20:33   That's not necessarily for podcasting.

01:20:34   That's also just to make it less echoey

01:20:36   and kind of annoying.

01:20:37   Beyond that, I don't know.

01:20:40   I mean, it depends.

01:20:41   Do you have an insulated garage door

01:20:42   or are you gonna be hearing everything from the street?

01:20:45   Mine is lightly insulated.

01:20:46   If I had known I was gonna work out here,

01:20:48   I would have had it be max insulation, but I didn't.

01:20:50   I have a door.

01:20:51   Door is important.

01:20:52   I can close the door.

01:20:54   That's a big, important thing.

01:20:56   I don't know.

01:20:57   I don't know what else.

01:20:58   You have any thoughts about this?

01:20:59   - Well, I did think I am in a horrifically poor environment

01:21:04   for acoustics in my studio.

01:21:07   It's just a very big room with concrete floors

01:21:10   and brick walls and it's perfectly square,

01:21:11   like rectangular, right?

01:21:13   So it's terrible.

01:21:14   And one of the, I mitigated this in a few ways.

01:21:18   One, you turn me on to the idea of carpet remnants.

01:21:22   So there were these companies that like,

01:21:23   they have these large pieces of carpet,

01:21:27   which they turn into rugs effectively.

01:21:29   and they could be offcuts from fitting out an office building or something.

01:21:34   So we were able to get a very, very large rug made to our specifications,

01:21:38   which helped a lot and also was just comfortable.

01:21:40   But for me, I mean, you probably don't need this, Max,

01:21:44   but for where I record,

01:21:46   I use acoustic blankets on my left and right side,

01:21:49   and that makes a huge difference for why you don't hear a ton of echo in my recording,

01:21:56   where if I took these blankets away, you would.

01:21:58   I mean, I even hear it if the, because the blankets kind of, they kind of box me in on

01:22:02   the sides. And if one of them is angled a little bit, written the way it shouldn't be,

01:22:06   I can hear more echo. So that's the thing that I use, but you probably don't need that.

01:22:10   And also these are, they're super ugly, these acoustic curtains.

01:22:14   A larger piece of advice for anybody who's living in it or working in a converted space

01:22:19   like this. So like we could have, a lot of people in this neighborhood, um, convert the

01:22:23   garages and they just turn them into rooms, right? They turn them into rooms or multiple

01:22:26   rooms in the house. And we didn't do that. We didn't want to spend the money on that.

01:22:29   We didn't want to do that. But what we did do, so it's bare concrete floor, right? So

01:22:34   what we did do is something that Mike mentioned in passing there. We went to a local carpet

01:22:42   store that specializes in remnants. And we got like a 12 foot by 12 foot or 12 by 10.

01:22:50   an enormous carpet remnant.

01:22:54   So they carpeted an office building or something,

01:22:56   but they're left with like large amounts of carpet.

01:22:59   So I got a pad that they cut to that size

01:23:04   and that remnant, which they stitch up

01:23:06   so it's like it's an enormous rug, essentially.

01:23:09   It's stitched up on the ends.

01:23:10   It's not ragged on the ends.

01:23:12   It's really nice.

01:23:13   And it's got backing.

01:23:14   And then it's got the pad underneath.

01:23:15   And as a result, my part of the office is carpeted,

01:23:20   even though I'm on a bare garage floor.

01:23:23   And it improves the quality of life so much

01:23:26   to have something that,

01:23:27   so if you're not gonna convert,

01:23:29   'cause this question seems to suggest

01:23:32   that it's gonna be the garage still,

01:23:35   I would say that's a big quality of life improvement.

01:23:38   If you've got ways to,

01:23:39   like I painted the walls a color that pleases me.

01:23:42   We actually put up some sheet rock

01:23:43   'cause there was some bare exposed wall.

01:23:45   But like the carpet was really important

01:23:47   'cause my first few months working out here,

01:23:48   I was working on bare concrete and it was cold

01:23:51   and unpleasant and just being in a carpeted space,

01:23:55   it feels more finished and real,

01:23:58   even though I could spend a weekend

01:24:01   and pull everything out of our garage and park a car in it.

01:24:04   I'm not gonna do that, but I could,

01:24:06   because we decided not to spend the money

01:24:10   to permanently convert it into part

01:24:11   of the interior of the house.

01:24:12   - And so I wanna give people an idea of this

01:24:14   'cause I think it explains

01:24:16   that the why these things are a good deal.

01:24:18   I don't necessarily endorse this,

01:24:19   but we found a company called Designer Carpet in the UK.

01:24:22   I got a six by four meter carpet rug for 350 pounds.

01:24:27   Which is just like such a great deal.

01:24:33   It's like, it's huge.

01:24:34   We have delivery, they delivered it to the studio.

01:24:36   - So that's like 18 by 12 feet.

01:24:38   That's a very, very large.

01:24:39   - It's huge.

01:24:40   - Very large.

01:24:42   But again, you could also pick it up

01:24:44   and take it somewhere else.

01:24:46   It's not permanent, but it feels like you're in a actual,

01:24:51   nice carpeted space.

01:24:52   So yeah, big remnant fans here.

01:24:57   - Recommended for all rental accommodations, this idea.

01:25:00   'Cause you can just put it down, take it up.

01:25:02   And they cut it to size. - Not permanent.

01:25:04   - It's fantastic. - Yeah.

01:25:05   - And Ben asks, "How much storage do you use on your iPhone?"

01:25:09   So I'll start here, so you have the ability

01:25:13   to go and open the part of your phone.

01:25:15   I don't have my phone with me, so that's not gonna.

01:25:18   - Well.

01:25:18   - Okay, I'll just go, I'll be back.

01:25:19   You just go on. - Jason's gonna go get it.

01:25:21   I'll tell people about mine. - You go on.

01:25:22   - So I have a 512 gigabyte storage size on my iPhone.

01:25:27   I upped to 512 because I like to keep all of my photos

01:25:31   on my device and I was getting to the point a few years ago

01:25:34   where I was starting to get close to the 256.

01:25:38   So, and I have passed that now.

01:25:42   So I decided to go up.

01:25:44   So I use 287 gigabytes of storage on my phone.

01:25:49   The vast majority of that is my photos.

01:25:53   And I just like to have my photos library all there.

01:25:56   So if I ever wanted to pull up an image,

01:25:57   I can do that and I don't have to go elsewhere.

01:26:01   And I expect that for me,

01:26:02   I will just keep over time increasing.

01:26:05   Like I can stay on the 512 for years now,

01:26:09   because I'm at 287 now.

01:26:11   I reckon I've got like a good amount of time

01:26:14   before I would need to upgrade to a larger potential size.

01:26:17   I don't even know if Apple does.

01:26:18   I don't remember a larger iPhone size in 512,

01:26:20   but they will eventually,

01:26:21   'cause that's just the way that these things go.

01:26:23   - No, no, there's a terabyte. - Is it a terabyte?

01:26:25   Yeah, so I was saying that, yeah, so that I have,

01:26:28   I pulled it out now to get the exact number,

01:26:30   but I think I'm like 161 gigabytes of my 287,

01:26:35   it's just photos.

01:26:37   - Yeah, makes sense, right?

01:26:39   - Where are you at?

01:26:40   48 gigabytes.

01:26:42   - Of total storage used?

01:26:44   - Yeah.

01:26:45   - So you don't keep your photos on the phone.

01:26:46   So I think you said you can't, right?

01:26:47   'Cause it's just too much.

01:26:48   - Yes, they don't make an iPhone big enough

01:26:51   even now for everything.

01:26:52   And so it's managing that storage for me.

01:26:54   Although it tells me there's 18 gigabytes

01:26:56   of photo data on there.

01:26:59   But it's not the whole library by a lot.

01:27:01   And then I have some music on there

01:27:03   because that's the thing you listen to.

01:27:04   I mean, I went to New Zealand with this phone, right?

01:27:06   So I loaded a lot of music on there

01:27:08   that I could listen to on the flight.

01:27:10   but I didn't load a lot of movies

01:27:11   because I put that on my iPad.

01:27:13   - Of course.

01:27:14   - So it's, I don't use a lot of storage

01:27:16   is what we've learned here.

01:27:18   And then, yeah, presumably I got a lot of podcasts on there.

01:27:23   That's about it.

01:27:27   - Yeah, I have for some reason four gigabytes in YouTube,

01:27:31   two gigabytes in Overcast,

01:27:33   Marvel snap is two and a half gigabytes.

01:27:35   And then for some reason I have 2.2 gigabytes of email

01:27:39   in my email app.

01:27:40   Don't know what's happening there.

01:27:43   I just found a game to uninstall

01:27:45   because I don't want it anymore

01:27:46   and it was taking up 1.8 gigabytes.

01:27:49   - I just saw a game,

01:27:49   it's useful to do just for that, right?

01:27:51   Which is like, oh my goodness.

01:27:53   That's a game I haven't played since I tried it out

01:27:56   when somebody said try it out

01:27:57   and then I never played it again.

01:27:58   And yet it is holding down, you know,

01:28:01   800 megs or something.

01:28:03   It's like, it's gotta go.

01:28:04   - If you would like to send in a question

01:28:07   for us to answer on the show,

01:28:08   just go to upgradefeedback.com and you can fill in your own Ask Upgrade question. Thank

01:28:13   you to everybody that did and does. I really appreciate it. Please go and fill in one of

01:28:17   your own. If you would like to send us feedback or follow up or snow talk questions or Ask

01:28:23   Upgrade questions, they all go to upgradefeedback.com. You can check out Jason's writing at sixcolors.com

01:28:29   and hear his shows on the incomparable.com and here on Relay FM. Do you have anything

01:28:34   going on on any of your shows you'd like to mention, Jason? Like anything special happening?

01:28:39   Anything special happening? Not really. It's a quiet time. Julia Alexander is about to

01:28:45   go on vacation, so we're going to do downstream this week and then pre-record an episode for

01:28:49   while she's on vacation. Can I make a request for downstream? Yes. I would love to be one.

01:28:53   Would you like to guest host with me? No, I don't think I can this week. I need a guest

01:28:57   host. Oh, when Julia's away? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we can talk about that. It'll just be an upgrade.

01:29:03   - Okay, we'll talk about it, we'll negotiate.

01:29:04   Yeah, that's true.

01:29:05   - But I would like Julia's opinion

01:29:07   on the WWE UFC merger acquisition thing.

01:29:11   - Oh yeah, yeah.

01:29:12   - I just wanna know what she thinks about that.

01:29:14   - Note taken.

01:29:15   - Thank you. - Thank you.

01:29:16   - You can listen to my shows here on Relay FM

01:29:18   and check out my work at cortexbrand.com.

01:29:21   Jason and I are both on Mastodon.

01:29:23   You can find Jason on zeppelin.flights as @jsnell

01:29:27   and you can find me on mike.social as @imike.

01:29:30   Thank you to our members who support us of Upgrade Plus.

01:29:32   Thank you to Squarespace and Fitbod for their support of this week's episode.

01:29:36   But most of all, as always, thank you for listening and we'll be back next week.

01:29:40   Until then.

01:29:41   So goodbye, Jason Snell.

01:29:42   Goodbye Mike Hurley.

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