0:00:00Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development. I'm Marco Arment. And I'm David Smith. Under the Radar is usually not longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.
0:00:10So today I wanted to talk about the, I guess, in my mind I started to think of it as like the middle path or kind of, and I mean that in the sense of, as a business, I think, you know, Marco and I, we both have these businesses that started out and largely are just like one person things.
0:00:28And this could be, you know, I think if you wanted to generalize it, it's that kind of the concept of the very small business, like rather than the small business, this is the very small business that it's either one person, two people, something along those lines.
0:00:40And there are some benefits, there are some wonderful things about being a business that that's, you know, that size, that that's small. We both love it. I think, you know, been doing this bit that way for 13 years.
0:00:52But I think as a result of being in that place, there is definitely some times in the back of your mind, there's this, this sort of like this, this pull this thought that like, hmm, where does it go from here?
0:01:04And like, what could that look like? What would that benefit be? And I was recently reminded of this sort of this tension that I feel when I was listening to a recent episode of Thoroughly Considered, which is a great sort of podcast on here on Real AFM, where Dan Provost and Tom Gerhardt, who are the people behind Studio Neat
0:01:21talked to Mike Hurley about their business, and they have a sort of an indie business, but not they do some software products, but mostly they make physical products, like they make awesome pens and notebooks and things like that. These are these tangible products that actually exist in the world.
0:01:38And it was fascinating because they were talking about how they find themselves in this kind of awkward middle place between being the super small business and being a traditional small business where, you know, they're starting to get into paid acquisition. So they're, you know, doing Instagram ads and these kind of other ways to get people to be interested in their pens.
0:01:59And then they now, which is great, but it means that they're now selling more pens. And if they sell more pens, they have to make more pens. And if they make more pens, they need people to make the pens. And previously, they've been making the pens, but now they need to hire someone who will make the pens.
0:02:12And they're selling more pens, which is great, but their overheads are higher because they're paying someone to make the pens and they're paying Instagram to acquire the customer. And as long as you know, they're still making more money as a result, like they still have a margin there.
0:02:24But all the margins and all the things change when you start to shift your business in that direction, that it isn't just the two of them, you know, like once a week, they just sit down and make the pens together. And then like, that's it for that, you know, there's no sort of additional cost beyond that.
0:02:40And they're kind of finding that I think it's this really interesting tension between, it's almost like there's this like snapping function where, on the one hand, you would sort of like it's easy to stay small, like very small to be a very small business and to stay there because
0:02:57there are so many advantages sort of structurally to that, that you have all these benefits of having no overhead by being completely in control, having decisions being straightforward by not having any kind of overheads that you have to think about that are you know, beyond just like the money overhead, but just in general and cognitively, it's so much simpler.
0:03:15Or you end up as like a traditional small business, which is going to be like 10 to 15 to 20 people, you're going to have like payroll and you're going to have benefits and you're going to have to think about employee like growth and you know, development and all of the various things like you start having office space because you these people need places to go like it, there's all these questions that start happening.
0:03:37And I think what was fascinating to hear in them and this is something that I as I think about this in my own business and kind of where I would go is, it's like there's it just snaps one way or the other that you stay where you are as a very small business and take the kind of difficulties of that or you snap up and suddenly like, Oh, it's not just only hire one person, because once you hire one person, it's very quickly seems to push you in a direction of hiring multiple people.
0:04:01But like when you start hiring multiple people, then you start to get into like just traditional business that this is the like, you know, if you went to it, did any MBA or did any listen, watch any like business YouTube video or anything like these very standard rules and processes and things that are like known to work, that don't really work or like apply when you're just a very small business, but apply very well.
0:04:24And you have to sort of educate yourself on like there where they were talking about how, you know, they were talking to a business consultant, and they said that typically, if you hire someone you can expect, like the best you can typically expect is to get like 20% return on that person's cost, you know, so essentially, it's like 120, like they were really return 120% of the cost that they that they that they you know, that they have to you.
0:04:48It's just like a general rule of thumb. And it's like, conceptually, that makes a lot of sense to me that like, if you had, you know, if you hire a person that it's not like, you know, if I went from just me to one other person, it isn't that we get double the kind of productivity, benefit, income, general, everything doubles. It's like, it clearly doesn't work that way. Because that's just not how businesses generally work that if you you add one person, it's you start to get this marginal return.
0:05:13But anyway, so just like this fascinating thing that I think we both find ourselves in where we're both, you know, very, you know, for these very small businesses, essentially, when people burn person, I mean, I have people who help with bits and parts, like I have an accountant who does my accounting and tax filing for me, which is, you know, a form of hiring, and I have a designer who does some of the icon work that I do on a freelance basis for me.
0:05:36But you know, it's not something that is committed and ongoing and, you know, sort of stable in that way. And I have someone who helps me with help desk sometimes and like, that's great as well. But it's, it's a different, it's not like the core part of the business that is being scaled up.
0:05:50And so anyway, it's something that I think about a lot that, you know, would I ever want to go down that road? And if on the scarier part, it's like, if I went down that road, what would be the first step on that path? Because knowing that it's very quickly going to probably expand out of just one step and quickly become 20, 30, 40 steps down the road.
0:06:05Where it's a very different business that I'm running.
0:06:08You know, I've often thought like, you know, am I being basically, am I being a fool here for not expanding my business when I have the chance to? At most times in my businesses, I've made enough profit from them that I can theoretically hire a person or two if I really wanted to.
0:06:29But usually I don't because, you know, first of all, I treat all iOS app money as temporary. And I think I should probably save as much of this as I can because it can go away at any moment because that's true.
0:06:42So part of it is I don't want to spend the money on an employee. The bigger part of it is I historically have not really been great at being a boss, being a manager. It's just not among my skill set.
0:06:53And it's also not something that I enjoy doing. I'm very awkward about it and not very confident in my skills in that area.
0:07:03And so, and then finally, I'm also a control freak. You know, I've been spoiled by being able to do everything myself and being able to make all the decisions myself.
0:07:11And so I don't want to give up control and delegate responsibility to other people if I can help it.
0:07:17But I've often thought like, am I, you know, long term, am I going to look back on this time and say, man, I wish I would have tried to expand my business more because I missed huge opportunities.
0:07:27And I've often thought like, you know, what would I hire for first? Where am I lacking? Where would I really benefit from somebody beyond just like supporting roles?
0:07:38Like, you know, like as you mentioned, yeah, an accountant does my taxes for me. That's kind of a, you know, supporting role for the business, not really core to what we're doing here.
0:07:46Things like answering support tickets, or, you know, support email. That's kind of core to the business, but it's also something that's fairly easily outsourced to somebody in a way that you don't have to do a ton of management.
0:08:00So I'm talking about like working on the actual like core product or core business mechanics in some way. A programmer, a designer, somebody to do like your app store marketing, like that kind of stuff.
0:08:13That is core to the business. In the past, I used to think that I would really benefit from a designer. And while that is still true, I don't think I needed as much as I used to, in part because my own skills have gotten better and in part because the system-wide default UI controls and default conventions that I've been able to use have gotten better as we talked in the past about things like SF Symbols and the new fonts and everything.
0:08:41It's gotten really good. System colors, like there's so much now that we get for free design-wise that I think the need for a designer for small operations like ours is greatly reduced from where it was five or ten years ago.
0:08:54And I've often thought where I would probably benefit most from another hire would be on the kind of promotional side. So kind of basically a marketing person. Somebody who would manage my app store assets, the screenshots, do a video promotion, run the social media accounts, design different engagement techniques and retention improvements.
0:09:23And maybe start doing promotional notifications and run the directory and run promotional stuff there. That kind of person. App store optimization techniques, any kind of A/B testing, optimizing the paywall for conversions. That's where I actually need the help.
0:09:42And I frankly don't really think I need another programmer. I could get more coding done, surely. I could definitely get more done if I had another programmer. But I think if you are a programmer and you hire a second programmer, what you're doing there is increasing the amount of that person coordination overhead that you're going to have to deal with because you're both doing the same thing on the same code base.
0:10:05Whereas if you're a programmer, hiring somebody who's not a programmer is doing a better job of covering skills you probably don't have or skills that you're pretty weak on. And for me that's certainly the case.
0:10:15The original reason I wanted to hire a designer was I didn't have design skills worth anything. Now I have some design skills. And so I feel like I can get away with that. But I don't have any skills in terms of marketing, optimization, running my search ads and stuff.
0:10:35I don't have any of those skills, really. I do an okay job of it, but I think that's where I would have the most opportunity for growth because I look around at other apps that do well, that get a lot of installations, get a lot of customers and retain them and spam them with notifications and all that stuff.
0:10:53And what I see is not necessarily nicely designed apps. I see nicely marketed apps and nicely sold apps and apps that have really good effective sales funnels and all that stuff that I really am not good at. People who know how to use data, you know, because I never do.
0:11:13That kind of stuff, I feel like that's where I would see the most benefit. And because it wouldn't overlap a ton with my main work on the app, like my coding work, obviously there would be some changes to the app that this person would either do themselves or would direct me to do to help them do their job better.
0:11:31But that I think would be where I would see the most benefit, would be that kind of higher. But even then, I worry. I mean, look, I already worry enough. Am I spending enough on ads? Am I promoting my app enough?
0:11:44And I look around at the market and I see, like, you know, it turns out, like, Overcast numbers have been a little bit down since December. And that's a little unusual for this time of year.
0:11:54I normally don't have this kind of seasonal dip. But my theory is that Overcast numbers historically have gone down whenever people don't go to work.
0:12:05I think I had a larger than expected number of users who worked tech jobs in Silicon Valley. Because as soon as those massive job cuts hit, you know, over the last few months, that corresponds directly to when my numbers started sagging.
0:12:19And, you know, that's my problem to deal with. But so because of that, I've been focused more on, like, all right, let's see what I can do to boost growth here.
0:12:25Like, I bought, I've increased my search ad spend because, first of all, that's one of the only places I have to, you know, get more installations and stuff is paid installs, which sucks.
0:12:37I hate having to do it. But it turns out because of the economic downturn and everything, search ads are cheaper than they used to be because fewer people are buying them.
0:12:45That's what, you know, it's hurting the other areas of my business because my own ad rates are cheaper than they used to be. But, you know, it is, it's a benefit there.
0:12:54But as I'm managing all that, I'm like, should I really be the person doing this? Like, wouldn't it be more effective if I hired somebody whose sole job was to boost my usage and sales?
0:13:07Like, that's your sole job is, you know, do stuff that I either can't or won't do or I'm not very good at and boost sales and go out there and increase, you know, do whatever it takes to optimize my ad copy, you know, run promos, whatever it is, you know, growth hack my app.
0:13:25And I hate having to say it like that, but that's really what I'm looking for. But, again, I think, what would it cost me to do that?
0:13:33And, you know, both in terms of the direct monetary cost of paying this person and also funding whatever they would tell me to do, like, you know, buying more ads or whatever.
0:13:42But then also, like, the overhead involved in managing a more than one person operation is so different from when you're working by yourself. It's radically different.
0:13:54I don't know if I'm ready for that. I don't know if I want that. Like, I don't know if that's the lifestyle I want, you know, once I start doing that. Maybe it would be much simpler than I expect. I don't know.
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0:15:39Yeah, and I think there's such this feeling of, I guess, opportunity, I think is the best word for so much of this. That it's this weird feeling of there's both the, are there opportunities that exist that would be tapped if I were a bigger business, if my business were a larger thing?
0:16:01What would they be? What would that look like? And then I guess that's both the opportunity cost of that as well as just what doors would be open, what things might happen.
0:16:13Then it's like, yes, it also is the tremendous opportunity to just be in this place that is the negative opportunity. Right now, there's not a lot of space, there's not a lot of opportunity for my business to get out of hand, for me to be unaware of what's going on, for things to be happening that I don't necessarily agree with or want or whatever.
0:16:35And the business is so buttoned down and straightforward because it is so small that it's easy, it's straightforward, but it definitely is coming at a cost. And it's a weird thought that I have sometimes where I think of, if someone were to buy my apps, what would they do with them?
0:16:56And it's like, generally speaking, I feel like, and sometimes there's things I think to learn from that exercise, because I suspect, you know, there's lots of opportunities that I'm not taking advantage of that they would, that the kind of company that would, you know, want to buy, you know, Widget Smith or pedometer plus plus or sleep plus plus or one of these things like, you know, either, it's like they would be looking, the reason they would be buying is because they thought it would be worth more to them than it would it is to me.
0:17:20Right, like that's fundamentally the nature of what an acquisition would be based on. And I think, you know, other than the kind of like, they're buying it because it's some kind of complimentary thing, and it's more of an aqua hire, or they just want the technology, like that could be the case.
0:17:35But otherwise, they could just look at what I'm doing and they'd be like, you know, like this fool doesn't know what he's doing. Like, oh, you know, if we if we got we got a hold of this app, we could do all kinds of things with it and, you know, take it in all kinds of different directions on the marketing side or like look at these screenshots, these screenshots are, you know,
0:17:49are nowhere near optimal and could be, you know, I, you know, they could have a designer who's done this 100 times who, who makes some some really awesome screenshots or things that could, you know, have these incremental sort of gains to the business. But I think at the end, it's like, I find this really, the tension I find is in so much is this weird thing of, like, what is the actual goal of my business? Like, why do I do what I do? And you know, that becomes very personal and very kind of like philosophical. I think at some point,
0:18:18but it really kind of ultimately is becoming those kind of questions like, do I want, you know, to be a business analyst and come into my app and treat it like I have an MBA? You know, I don't but if I did, like, I'm sure there are lots of things that you would do to the app that you would treat it in a different way. And like, sometimes I wish I was that person who would look at my app, like purely analytically and numerically, and it is just it's all spreadsheets all the way down. And that is, you know,
0:18:47And that is the way that they would govern the business
0:18:50and the way that they would do it.
0:18:52And it's like well, if we could hire a marketer
0:18:54and we could get back 20% of what it costs
0:18:57to hire that marketer, then we should totally do that,
0:18:59because we made 20% on that person.
0:19:02And it becomes very analytical and straightforward.
0:19:04And like oh, well, it's like well once we have three,
0:19:07it's like oh, let's do that again and again.
0:19:09And oh, well now we have a person we need to hire
0:19:11in order to manage the people we hired.
0:19:12It's like well that's great, it's fine.
0:19:14Like they're all paying for themselves.
0:19:15I guess like every fifth person,
0:19:17you get a person free or whatever.
0:19:19I don't know if that's how people work,
0:19:20but it's like that's a different way of thinking,
0:19:24but it's a very different goal.
0:19:26It's like that's probably the goal that would extract
0:19:28the most money out of the opportunities I have
0:19:33and the apps that I have and their place in the app store
0:19:35and all of those things.
0:19:36But like ultimately, I do like 80% of this thought exercise
0:19:40and I always end up at this place.
0:19:41It's like yeah, but is that what I want to do?
0:19:45Is that the business I want to have?
0:19:48Is that what I want my life to look like?
0:19:50That it's just about trying to get the maximum amount
0:19:53of money possible from these things?
0:19:55And then I just sort of end up like yeah, probably not.
0:19:58And then move on.
0:20:00But always in the back of my mind,
0:20:01the thought of like yeah, so what you're doing,
0:20:03you know is not optimal, that could be better,
0:20:05but you're kind of just like,
0:20:06and I hope it's not just laziness
0:20:08that is preventing me from being optimal
0:20:10in the sense of like I could do more.
0:20:11I could do all these things.
0:20:12Maybe if I just tried harder on my paywalls,
0:20:14if I tried harder on my screenshots, I'd get better.
0:20:18But I don't know if it's quite that straightforward.
0:20:22- No, I mean, I think one of the greatest cultural flaws
0:20:27that we have in at least American culture
0:20:33is that we don't really have a concept of enough.
0:20:37Like what's enough?
0:20:38Like once your app is making enough,
0:20:41and what that means varies for everybody.
0:20:45There's so many dependent factors there of course.
0:20:47But once you're making enough,
0:20:49you get the luxury, if you reach this point,
0:20:53of kind of deciding where to go from there.
0:20:56And making decisions of like what kind of lifestyle
0:21:00or what kind of life do I want,
0:21:02and what choices can I make to either keep that
0:21:05or get to that?
0:21:07Once you will have enough, it might not be worth
0:21:11changing your lifestyle in other negative ways
0:21:13to get that incremental amount more.
0:21:16And so if you are right now are making enough
0:21:20by whatever that means to you,
0:21:22and you like your lifestyle of working alone
0:21:25and doing whatever you want and having full control
0:21:28and having it be simpler and easier to manage,
0:21:30yeah, you might be able to make more
0:21:33if you started hiring people
0:21:35and dramatically changed what your day-to-day life
0:21:39actually looks like once you start managing people.
0:21:41Yeah, you could make more.
0:21:42But is that the life you actually want for yourself?
0:21:45A lot of times people don't ask themselves that question
0:21:48because the allure of more is so powerful
0:21:52that you either don't have the luxury
0:21:54to ask yourself that question,
0:21:55or you don't think to ask yourself that question
0:21:57because money tricks our brains.
0:21:59It's like a drug to our brains.
0:22:01And sometimes it's because it's necessary in your life.
0:22:04But a lot of times, again, once you've reached
0:22:06that point of enough, your brain often still treats money
0:22:09as that kind of drug that you can't question.
0:22:12Oh, of course, if you can make more,
0:22:14why wouldn't you make more?
0:22:15But there's lots of reasons why you wouldn't want
0:22:18to make more if you actually think about it
0:22:20and if you actually start running the scenario out of,
0:22:23"Okay, well, if I hire somebody, then what happens?"
0:22:26And then, "Oh, if I hire five people, then what happens?"
0:22:30And, "What does my life look like if I go down that path?"
0:22:34Or people often don't think like,
0:22:37"This thing I'm thinking about doing or wanting to do,
0:22:40"what happens if I succeed?
0:22:43"What does my life look like if I succeed
0:22:45"in doing what I am thinking about or attempting to do?"
0:22:48And oftentimes, it's actually not something that you want,
0:22:51or it's not a lifestyle that you want,
0:22:53or it has all sorts of negative downsides
0:22:56that you didn't really consider or adequately evaluate.
0:23:00I look at people who make more money than me,
0:23:08and I usually do not envy their lifestyle
0:23:11because of what they have to do
0:23:13to make that that much more money.
0:23:15Usually, whatever they do in their day-to-day life
0:23:17or the way they run their business
0:23:18or the kind of business they have to run,
0:23:20usually I look at that and I'm like,
0:23:21"You know, that's fine for them.
0:23:24"I don't want that.
0:23:25"I don't want my life to be that,
0:23:26"or I don't want my business or my company to be that.
0:23:29"I wanna be able to sleep at night,
0:23:30"and I'm fine with what I have."
0:23:32And again, look, I know this is coming
0:23:35from a position of privilege
0:23:36'cause a lot of people can't make that choice
0:23:37'cause what they have is not enough.
0:23:40But once you reach that point where it is enough,
0:23:42I feel like you get that luxury
0:23:44of being able to make that choice.
0:23:44And most people underthink that or under-consider that
0:23:48or undervalue some of the niceness
0:23:50of their current lifestyle when thinking about,
0:23:54"Well, should I push more, and should I make these changes,
0:23:57"or should I sacrifice in these other areas
0:23:59"so I can make more?"
0:24:01And I feel like it's worth stepping back a lot of times
0:24:04and thinking, "What would that do if I succeeded in that?
0:24:08"What would that do to my lifestyle?"
0:24:09And for me, like you were saying a minute ago,
0:24:12for me, I'm extremely happy running my business as myself.
0:24:17I love doing it just myself,
0:24:20and I love having full control over everything,
0:24:23and I'm fortunate enough that it works out
0:24:25that I don't need to hire more people to make enough.
0:24:29But again, it is always tempting,
0:24:31like these areas that I am not good at,
0:24:34would I actually be happier not doing them
0:24:37and leaving it to somebody else?
0:24:38I don't know.
0:24:39Sometimes the answer is yes.
0:24:40Like in the case of having an accountant do my taxes,
0:24:42that's a no-brainer.
0:24:43I hate doing taxes.
0:24:44I've done them before.
0:24:45I hated it every time I did it.
0:24:46So once I was able to, I hired it out,
0:24:49and I've been happier as a result.
0:24:50I can apply that same logic to lots of things.
0:24:53I say, "Well, maybe I should just outsource X, Y, Z,
0:24:56"thing I don't like doing about the app
0:24:57"or thing I'm not good at about the app.
0:24:58"Maybe I should just hire someone to do that,
0:25:00"whether it's a contract-based thing or a full-time."
0:25:03I mean, obviously there's very different levels
0:25:05of complexity and cost there,
0:25:06but maybe I should hire things out
0:25:08in the same way I hired an accountant.
0:25:09I don't know, but it's really unnerving
0:25:12to think about giving up the lifestyle I have now
0:25:14because I really like it,
0:25:15and there's huge benefits of this lifestyle to me
0:25:18that I want to protect.
0:25:20- Yeah.
0:25:22And I feel like it is one of these things
0:25:24where I think I'm increasingly,
0:25:27I don't know if that's how you would say it,
0:25:28like I'm increasingly comfortable
0:25:30that I will always be uncomfortable with this tension,
0:25:34that there isn't a solution to find
0:25:38in the middle of this, I think,
0:25:40that if you can't have the benefits
0:25:42of being a super small business,
0:25:45that you have a lot of control,
0:25:47that you can make choices based on values
0:25:50rather than spreadsheets or be making those kind of choices
0:25:54that are coming from potentially a place of,
0:25:56sort of like, it's a bit privileged, yeah.
0:25:59It's that sense of I can make the choice
0:26:01that I think is best, not necessarily this choice
0:26:03that is best for the business.
0:26:05I always hear of that phrase,
0:26:09maximizing shareholder value,
0:26:11that it sounds like I never want to be a CEO of a company
0:26:14where that's the thing that I'm supposed to be doing.
0:26:17That sounds terrible, and I'm sure, obviously,
0:26:19it's not quite as simple as that for a big company CEO,
0:26:22but as a goal, as a value, as what I'm doing,
0:26:26that sounds awful to be maximizing shareholder value.
0:26:28And at a certain point, if my business were bigger,
0:26:31that's what the business starts to kind of do,
0:26:33because whatever you measure, whatever you keep score with,
0:26:37is the thing that you're optimizing for.
0:26:38And it's so easy to be optimizing that
0:26:41for the revenue number or the profit number
0:26:45or whatever those things are, like the user base,
0:26:47the monthly active users, whatever it is,
0:26:49that is something that is easy to optimize for
0:26:52because it's the thing that is tangible and measurable.
0:26:55You can't really measure how well-designed the app is
0:27:00and get a score with that and hope for that,
0:27:02see that score increasing over time,
0:27:05that as I've gotten better at visual design
0:27:08or accessibility or whatever aspect of my apps there is,
0:27:12I think that's gotten better.
0:27:13I have a pretty good sense
0:27:14that that's gotten better over the years,
0:27:16that it's not a number that I can just pull up
0:27:17in a spreadsheet and say,
0:27:18"My design score was six two years ago.
0:27:21"Now it's seven and a half.
0:27:22"Let's see if I can get it to eight and a half."
0:27:24It just doesn't work that way.
0:27:25And because it doesn't work that way,
0:27:26I feel like it's so easy to ignore those
0:27:28and only focus on the things that are tangible,
0:27:31that are easy to count,
0:27:33because once you can count it, then you can measure it.
0:27:35And so, yeah, in the end, I feel like it's one
0:27:39of these things that ultimately, the important thing is
0:27:41to have a goal in mind and understand
0:27:44that the approach you and I take to making software
0:27:48and doing things is different than the approach
0:27:51that you would want to take if you wanted
0:27:54to have a big business with lots of people.
0:27:56And potentially, it's like 10 times the revenue
0:27:59with whatever, 20 times the people.
0:28:03That could be great.
0:28:04That could be beneficial for a lot of people
0:28:05and be in a great situation,
0:28:07but it also comes with a lot of costs.
0:28:09And it's like, if you value that, if that's your goal,
0:28:10like, awesome, go do that.
0:28:13But I think, for you and I, it sounds like,
0:28:16we're happy kind of snapping back to the other way
0:28:18and keeping staying small and understanding.
0:28:20We're giving up something for that,
0:28:21but we're gaining something else, too.
0:28:23And it's easy to sometimes be focused on what you've lost
0:28:26rather than what you've gained, which is a natural thing,
0:28:29but certainly a dangerous thing in this case.
0:28:31- Yeah, and ultimately, your lifestyle and your happiness
0:28:34and minimizing your stress and everything else,
0:28:37that all has value in the same way money has value to you.
0:28:40So once you have enough money,
0:28:42then you can start optimizing for those other things
0:28:45and make yourself happier and healthier
0:28:47and make your life better, optimize for your family,
0:28:51whatever you need to do, that all has great value.
0:28:53And that's usually worth a lot more than making 20% more.
0:28:57- Exactly.
0:28:59- Thanks for listening, everybody,
0:29:00and we'll talk to you in two weeks.
0:29:02- Bye.
0:29:02[ Silence ]