457: Subtle & Vibrant


00:00:00   (upbeat music)

00:00:02   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 457.

00:00:13   Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace and Fitbud.

00:00:16   My name is Mike Hurley, I'm joined by Jason Snell.

00:00:19   Hi, Jason Snell.

00:00:20   - Hi, Mike Hurley, how are you?

00:00:22   - Yeah, I'm a little under,

00:00:22   whether you could probably hear it.

00:00:24   - Yes, I do.

00:00:25   - I've got that going on today.

00:00:26   I've got the low voice.

00:00:28   We'll see if I still have a voice by the end of the episode.

00:00:31   - Okay. - 50/50 odds.

00:00:33   - Oh, if you lose your voice during this episode,

00:00:35   I think you will have been proven wrong

00:00:37   about deciding to soldier on and do this episode, right?

00:00:40   - That is true, yes.

00:00:41   - Like if I have to get Steven Hackett to tag in

00:00:43   at the midway point.

00:00:44   - Yep, then I made a mistake.

00:00:47   - Then, yeah.

00:00:47   - We'll find out.

00:00:49   - Happy bank holiday to you.

00:00:50   - And to you.

00:00:51   I have a Snell Talk question that comes from John.

00:00:55   And John says, "We know that Jason uses an ember mug,

00:00:58   "but what is his preferred temperature for tea?"

00:01:01   - Oh, preferred temperature.

00:01:04   This gets us into dangerous Casey List territory.

00:01:08   - Okay.

00:01:09   - 'Cause I have to explain my preferred temperature to tea

00:01:13   in Fahrenheit and then translate it into Celsius.

00:01:17   So I'm just saying. - No, you could just say

00:01:18   in Fahrenheit, if people really wanna know,

00:01:20   they can do the calculation. - No, I've looked it up now.

00:01:22   No, no, no, I'm full service.

00:01:24   I'm full service about this stuff.

00:01:25   160 degrees Fahrenheit.

00:01:28   Would you have any guesses about how much that is in C?

00:01:31   - 2000.

00:01:31   Is it 2000 degrees Celsius?

00:01:35   - 2000 Kelvins, yeah, that's exactly it.

00:01:37   I like it.

00:01:38   I like it to melt the cup.

00:01:38   - That's like 80?

00:01:40   - It's 70.

00:01:41   - 70, okay.

00:01:43   - 70 C, 160 degrees Fahrenheit.

00:01:45   That's what I like it.

00:01:46   I did not know.

00:01:47   It's funny, okay.

00:01:50   So John asked this.

00:01:53   I am not one of those people who's like,

00:01:56   "Oh, what is the ideal temperature for my tea?

00:01:58   "I shall find out."

00:02:00   And then many years ago I was like,

00:02:01   "Sip, oh, it's too hot.

00:02:02   "Sip, oh, it's too hot.

00:02:03   "Sip, oh, now it's just right.

00:02:04   "Get the quick read thermometer in there.

00:02:06   "Whoa, it's 161 degrees Fahrenheit, that's it."

00:02:09   And now let's see how long this range goes.

00:02:10   Sip, still fine.

00:02:11   Sip, still fine.

00:02:12   Sip, mm, it's a little cold.

00:02:14   Stick it in, oh, 155.

00:02:16   Now we know my range.

00:02:17   I have never done anything that scientific about this.

00:02:20   But then the Embermug has you set

00:02:22   your preferred temperature.

00:02:23   And I had that moment where I realized

00:02:27   I need to find out what my ideal temperature is.

00:02:30   However, it is come in useful

00:02:32   because there are also times where the teapot, the tea robot

00:02:36   which keeps things warm for about an hour.

00:02:39   After an hour, it doesn't keep it warm anymore.

00:02:41   And I'll come out there and there'll still be some tea.

00:02:44   And what I do now, now that I know 160 or 165,

00:02:48   somewhere in there is the right amount,

00:02:50   is I press the hot water button on the teapot.

00:02:53   And I just watch as it goes up in temperature

00:02:58   until it hits 160.

00:02:59   And then I press the button and refill my teacup.

00:03:02   So now I know, but it's funny 'cause I had,

00:03:06   I literally, I knew there was a temperature

00:03:08   that was just right,

00:03:10   but I had never even thought about measuring it

00:03:12   because what would be the benefit of it?

00:03:13   And then I got the Embermug and I was like, okay,

00:03:15   I guess I need to know this.

00:03:16   So I believe my Embermug is set to 160, maybe 165.

00:03:19   And that's also the range that I shoot for

00:03:21   when I'm heating up tea in the,

00:03:24   reheating the tea in the teapot that's gotten cold.

00:03:28   - And now we know.

00:03:29   - And now you know, right?

00:03:30   So now you can try that.

00:03:31   You could try that listeners

00:03:33   and all the upgradings out there,

00:03:34   they can have their tea Jason style,

00:03:36   which is at 160 degrees and determine, is that too hot?

00:03:39   Is that too cool?

00:03:40   What's wrong with me?

00:03:41   Or is it just right?

00:03:42   - If you'd like to send in a snow talk question of your own,

00:03:45   just go to upgradefeedback.com

00:03:47   and you could submit a snow talk question

00:03:50   for us to open a future episode of the show.

00:03:52   Thank you to John for writing that in.

00:03:55   Jason, I hate that.

00:03:56   Never do that again.

00:03:57   - Just drinking some tea over here.

00:03:59   - I guess, how would we know you were drinking tea

00:04:01   without the sounds, but not great.

00:04:04   I have some follow up for you.

00:04:07   So Brandon writes in and says,

00:04:10   you both spent some time on last week's episode

00:04:13   talking about the role that fitness will have

00:04:15   with Apple's upcoming headset.

00:04:16   We have more of that today actually.

00:04:18   Brandon asks, have either of you tried Supernatural

00:04:21   on your meta quest?

00:04:22   I was skeptical, but immediately got hooked

00:04:25   on their VR fitness programs.

00:04:26   So two things about this.

00:04:29   - Okay.

00:04:30   - Well, three things.

00:04:31   Supernatural is like a fitness game

00:04:32   kind of experience app thing.

00:04:35   - Very popular.

00:04:36   - Point two, this is a company that meta is trying to buy

00:04:41   and I don't know if they will be able to,

00:04:45   it's getting blocked.

00:04:47   Three, for some reason that I do not understand,

00:04:49   Supernatural was never available outside of the US

00:04:52   and Canada, so I never tried it.

00:04:53   - Huh, weird.

00:04:54   I have not tried it.

00:04:55   I've heard good things about it from friends.

00:04:57   I downloaded it because my wife was interested in it

00:05:00   and she said she might try it, but she has yet to try it.

00:05:04   And I'm kind of happy with my Beat Saber

00:05:08   for getting a sweat going.

00:05:11   And otherwise I realized that you could argue

00:05:15   that my meta quest two is essentially a ping pong product

00:05:20   for me, like I play 11 table tennis more than any other app

00:05:25   on that thing and I love it.

00:05:28   As a kid who grew up with a ping pong table

00:05:30   and then doesn't have room for one, I do love it.

00:05:33   But Beat Saber is my choice, but I'm curious about it.

00:05:37   I would like to try it sometime.

00:05:39   I think I got, I realized that in the end,

00:05:41   there's probably a trial, but you gotta pay a subscription

00:05:45   and all that and I just kind of didn't,

00:05:47   that was enough of a barrier for me to like,

00:05:49   I might've idly tried it, but I wasn't gonna,

00:05:51   I just wasn't gonna deal with it, so I haven't tried it.

00:05:53   But I've heard very positive things about it

00:05:55   and those are the things that make me believe that,

00:05:57   that and my Beat Saber experience make me believe

00:05:59   that fitness is an actual interesting niche for Apple

00:06:03   to explore with VR, especially since they're already

00:06:07   doing fitness content in a couple of different ways, right?

00:06:11   With Fitness Plus and with the Apple Watch.

00:06:13   - Yeah, I hear a lot of people talk about Supernatural

00:06:16   as kind of being like the only thing that they do

00:06:17   on their meta quest and or it was like the reason

00:06:20   that they continue to use it.

00:06:22   The thing about this that I'm not sure about yet is,

00:06:26   I think this works because it's a game.

00:06:30   It's not like a fitness class.

00:06:34   And I feel like Apple's more likely to do a,

00:06:38   we have a Fitness Plus class that you're gonna do

00:06:41   inside of VR.

00:06:44   - I mean, they could gamify it though.

00:06:45   I think that's the, I think the most likely scenario

00:06:48   is that they will try to gamify it a little bit

00:06:50   like they do currently and it's not really gamifying it,

00:06:54   right, to put up your rings and say your burn bar,

00:06:58   you're slightly ahead of the pack or whatever.

00:07:00   Yes, I think it's an interesting question about,

00:07:02   is Apple itself gonna be able to take advantage of VR

00:07:07   in the way that you might need to

00:07:10   to make it a compelling fitness experience?

00:07:12   Or will they work with a partner?

00:07:14   Or will somebody just come onto the platform

00:07:17   and do it right and have Apple go, yeah, use that

00:07:21   or buy them or whatever?

00:07:23   - Yeah, I think the answer is kind of like yes

00:07:25   to all of those things realistically.

00:07:27   Like I think that, well, I could imagine

00:07:31   if Meta pull off this acquisition

00:07:33   that they would put this Supernatural on the Apple headset.

00:07:38   If people think that's wild what I just said,

00:07:40   Meta owns Beat Saber, Beat Saber's on PlayStation.

00:07:44   - Yeah.

00:07:45   - So like they're not silly.

00:07:47   It's the same as Microsoft own in Minecraft.

00:07:49   Like you own these things to make money from these things.

00:07:53   Maybe you provide a slightly different experience

00:07:54   on your own platform in some way.

00:07:56   Maybe it's cheaper on your platform or whatever.

00:07:59   But realistically you still want to be where the market is

00:08:03   and maybe they put a version of it there.

00:08:05   'Cause in the same way that if it can run

00:08:07   I expect Beat Saber to find its way

00:08:09   to Apple's headset as well.

00:08:11   - Yeah, I think there is,

00:08:13   it's actually a little similar to the streaming business

00:08:17   where there was a period where everything was sort of like

00:08:19   I'm gonna just erect a bunch of walls around my stuff

00:08:21   and nobody else can come in.

00:08:23   And then they got to the point where it's like,

00:08:25   oh no, actually we can make more money

00:08:27   doing, letting other people have our stuff too.

00:08:30   Right, like there was a calculation there.

00:08:32   And I think that maybe there's some of that calculation

00:08:34   from Meta, which is if we own Supernatural

00:08:38   and Apple's got a headset

00:08:39   and Apple's headset is gonna be popular, we make money.

00:08:43   - Yeah.

00:08:44   - Right, not only does Apple give

00:08:45   the entire VR headset thing legitimacy,

00:08:47   which they care about,

00:08:48   but they also would make money from it because of their app.

00:08:53   And I feel like we're in an era now

00:08:55   where there's more scrutiny of that sort of business practice

00:08:58   of like, we're not gonna forego revenue just out of spite

00:09:02   and make people buy our headset.

00:09:03   And I think people would also point at Apple's headset

00:09:06   and say, really, is that it?

00:09:07   You're gonna withhold Supernatural and you think,

00:09:09   I mean, the danger is actually that somebody else

00:09:11   builds something that's as good as Supernatural

00:09:13   or almost as good as Supernatural on Apple's platforms.

00:09:16   And that gives them an injection of momentum

00:09:19   that leads them to become more powerful than Supernatural.

00:09:24   And that's really bad for meta.

00:09:26   So we'll see, but you're right.

00:09:29   That might be the answer is that Supernatural

00:09:31   just goes on Apple's platform.

00:09:33   Yeah.

00:09:34   - More on VR and fitness, Zach wrote in and said,

00:09:36   in the most recent episode,

00:09:38   you mentioned Apple Fitness+ workouts with the headset

00:09:40   and expressed interest in having some immersive workouts.

00:09:44   I wonder if the Time to Walk series

00:09:46   could be used here as well.

00:09:47   It'd be really cool to actually walk along the path

00:09:49   that the guest is narrating about and see for yourself

00:09:52   instead of just hearing sounds and seeing still images.

00:09:55   - So here's the problem is VR exercise works

00:09:59   with moving your body around in place,

00:10:02   or potentially if you're on a stationary bicycle

00:10:06   or something, I guess this might work

00:10:08   if you're using a treadmill, but otherwise it doesn't work.

00:10:12   I mean, I guess, okay, you could do it

00:10:14   in augmented reality mode, but now you're walking

00:10:16   around your neighborhood wearing a headset.

00:10:18   I don't think that's a really good scenario.

00:10:20   So I think it's an interesting idea,

00:10:22   but I just don't, unless it was a time

00:10:24   to walk on the treadmill kind of thing,

00:10:27   that could be interesting, right?

00:10:28   And I think that there will be innovation in those areas,

00:10:31   bicycles and treadmills and other things,

00:10:32   but you gotta be able, otherwise in VR,

00:10:35   you're basically in a space unless you're flipping it over

00:10:38   to augmented reality mode,

00:10:39   because otherwise you're gonna run into stuff.

00:10:41   And I don't think we're at the point culturally

00:10:43   where people are gonna be walking around

00:10:44   with the Apple headset outside.

00:10:46   - Good point.

00:10:47   - Also, I wanted to mention David Schaub

00:10:49   in our members Discord pointed out something

00:10:52   that I was also thinking, which is Apple seems to be solving

00:10:55   for weight in this product, right?

00:10:58   Based on all the reports that they're gonna put

00:10:59   the battery outboard in your pocket or whatever,

00:11:02   and they want the headset to be light.

00:11:04   I wonder if one of the calculations there is,

00:11:07   it's gotta be light if you're gonna really make it

00:11:09   a fitness product, and the lighter it is,

00:11:11   the more receptive you're gonna be

00:11:13   to using it for fitness.

00:11:14   And I think there's something to that.

00:11:16   - Yeah, I agree, but I would say that a cable

00:11:20   to a battery pack is not-

00:11:21   - Not ideal.

00:11:22   - Conducive to fitness.

00:11:24   - Yeah, I mean, depends, right?

00:11:25   Depends on how they do it, but you're right.

00:11:27   There's other danger there.

00:11:29   - On a completely different note, Chris writes in

00:11:33   about titanium and color.

00:11:36   So to kind of try and close this,

00:11:38   'cause we've gone back and forwards on this a bit.

00:11:40   So Chris says, "It is possible to achieve a wide range

00:11:44   of both subtle and vibrant color when anodizing titanium

00:11:48   using either heat or electricity.

00:11:50   Electricity is the way Apple would go

00:11:52   since it's highly repeatable and uses similar equipment

00:11:56   to their current aluminum anodization process."

00:11:59   - Right, right.

00:12:00   And this is something that has been reported

00:12:03   that the Profones will be made out of titanium,

00:12:07   or will have the titanium ring instead of the stainless steel

00:12:10   which is great 'cause it's lighter.

00:12:11   And there's a lot of speculation about color ability with it

00:12:15   because the stainless, I think, is a little bit harder

00:12:17   to get the bright colors in.

00:12:19   I love hearing this.

00:12:21   It's no guarantee that the Profones

00:12:23   will have any interesting colors,

00:12:24   but it means that if they don't,

00:12:27   Apple can't use the titanium as an excuse

00:12:30   because the titanium frame can take color.

00:12:34   It's just a question of if Apple will provide any.

00:12:37   - Yeah, the electricity is interesting.

00:12:40   This has a name that I've heard before.

00:12:43   I think some of this stuff is done in keyboards.

00:12:46   Sometimes the color is called E-White.

00:12:49   I think it's like basic, is it electrolysis?

00:12:53   Electrolysis.

00:12:53   - Yeah, I mean, that's what anodization is.

00:12:57   A-node, it literally,

00:12:59   you're making a electrical connection and it attaches.

00:13:03   And it's pretty cool chemistry.

00:13:06   So it's good to know that, I agree with Chris,

00:13:10   this is the way that Apple would do it

00:13:11   'cause they wanted to make it,

00:13:12   Apple's so familiar with aluminum anodization

00:13:16   that it would make perfect sense

00:13:18   for them to just replicate that with titanium.

00:13:21   And of course, everybody who's been around long enough

00:13:23   remembers what happened when Apple made a laptop

00:13:25   with a titanium frame.

00:13:27   And the answer is they put paint on it

00:13:29   and the paint flaked off.

00:13:32   That was actually a good lesson that Apple has learned.

00:13:34   But I've got a titanium Apple Watch and it's gorgeous

00:13:37   and they've gotten better.

00:13:39   Sometimes I think that they experiment

00:13:42   with materials like that.

00:13:44   Titanium on the Apple Watch gave them some familiarity

00:13:47   with titanium that they can now put into practice

00:13:50   with titanium on the iPhone, which is a much,

00:13:54   it's an enormous volume.

00:13:55   - As I'm sure the steel watches probably helped

00:13:59   with some of the steel for the iPhones as well, right?

00:14:03   - I think we don't talk about it here a lot,

00:14:05   but it's one of my favorite things to think about Apple

00:14:07   is their prowess in material science.

00:14:10   And I did, I've said it here a few times before,

00:14:13   I have definitely heard from people who say,

00:14:16   Apple is about the best in the world

00:14:18   when it comes to aluminum.

00:14:19   Like they've gotten very, very, very good over the 20 years

00:14:23   that they've been doing aluminum primarily

00:14:26   for so many of their products.

00:14:27   And they're also learning about other materials.

00:14:30   Like that's part of the deal here is they're not gonna,

00:14:33   I mean, Apple, they could take stuff off the shelf,

00:14:36   but I think Apple is always feels like they need to play

00:14:39   their own game and have their own formulation

00:14:41   of stainless steel and have their own process that they're,

00:14:44   in fact, I would almost put money down

00:14:47   that they will boast at least briefly about the process

00:14:50   that they invented that helped them do the titanium thing

00:14:54   on the iPhone when they introduced the iPhone in September.

00:14:57   - So I learned one of this kind of stuff,

00:15:00   especially with a watch is how I learned

00:15:01   one of my favorite words, which is metallurgy.

00:15:04   - Oh, that's a good word.

00:15:06   - Yeah, it's a very good word.

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00:17:30   So we've been talking about health stuff,

00:17:34   you know, we're just talking about it in follow up.

00:17:36   Well, Mark Gurman has a report at Bloomberg

00:17:38   that Apple is working on an AI powered

00:17:41   health coaching service alongside adding

00:17:44   the health app itself to iPad OS.

00:17:47   So a quote from Bloomberg,

00:17:48   "The new coaching service is designed to keep users

00:17:51   motivated to exercise, improve eating habits

00:17:55   and help them sleep better,

00:17:56   according to people with knowledge of the product.

00:17:58   The idea is to use AI and data from an Apple watch

00:18:01   to make suggestions and create coaching programs

00:18:04   tailored to specific users.

00:18:06   The service is planned to launch sometime next year."

00:18:09   So it's not necessarily something we're gonna hear about

00:18:11   on the horizon.

00:18:12   It feels like a beefing up of like the trends feature

00:18:15   that they added to the health app, right?

00:18:17   And maybe it will now go some way to recommending things.

00:18:22   I hope that they do a decent job here

00:18:25   because sometimes the trends stuff really annoys me

00:18:29   in the health app where it's like,

00:18:31   "Your VO2 stats changed."

00:18:33   It's like, "Is this good?

00:18:35   Is this bad?"

00:18:36   Like you don't tell, you just tell me does it change?

00:18:39   - That's what I was going to say is that

00:18:41   I have gotten one of those alerts that says,

00:18:43   "This stat that is complicated has changed."

00:18:47   And I literally don't know if that's good or bad

00:18:51   and it doesn't tell me.

00:18:53   You could just say, "This means that you're less,

00:18:56   you're in less good shape."

00:18:57   Or, "This means you're in better shape."

00:18:59   But instead it's sort of like,

00:19:00   "Oh yeah, your VO2 max changed."

00:19:02   No, okay, what does that mean?

00:19:03   Or your resting heart rate changed, what does that mean?

00:19:06   And also this is pitched here as being a service, right?

00:19:11   Which I find interesting because if it's a service,

00:19:17   then they're gonna, maybe it's adding on to Fitness Plus

00:19:23   or maybe it's rolled into a bundle and-

00:19:25   - Health Plus, man.

00:19:26   This is Apple Health Plus.

00:19:27   I would expect.

00:19:29   - Perhaps so, but not only one is that annoying

00:19:32   because it feels like they're just taking something

00:19:36   that would otherwise have been an expanded feature

00:19:38   of the software and making it into something

00:19:41   you have to pay for, which I don't love.

00:19:43   Like what makes this a service?

00:19:45   If it's truly something you have to add on,

00:19:47   but all it is is like an AI telling you coaching things.

00:19:51   Like if they, I mean, presumably they're gonna add,

00:19:54   they're gonna add other stuff, right?

00:19:55   For this truly to be a service,

00:19:56   they gotta have some content.

00:19:59   They maybe have, you know, they can talk about like

00:20:02   experts who were involved in building it

00:20:03   and that it's like, it's much more than just,

00:20:05   'cause if there's nobody there and all it is

00:20:08   is some software to tell me you could run faster,

00:20:12   why would I pay for that?

00:20:13   Like I find that a little bit baffling

00:20:15   'cause that seems like it's sort of just an elevated feature

00:20:18   of the operating system.

00:20:20   So what makes it a service?

00:20:23   I'm just saying, I mean, I'm not saying they won't do it.

00:20:25   I'm saying that I'm gonna be a little skeptical

00:20:28   that Apple has taken something that in years past

00:20:30   would have just been a feature addition and said,

00:20:33   no, no, no, no, no, this is something,

00:20:35   like justify why that's something I need to pay for

00:20:37   is what I'm saying.

00:20:38   So I'm gonna be a little bit skeptical about that.

00:20:41   And yes, I share your feelings about what's already there

00:20:44   too, which is, it's not that good.

00:20:47   So like I can see them doing better here,

00:20:49   but if I had read this report and it had said,

00:20:52   Apple's got some new features that are gonna make the stuff

00:20:55   that it tries to tell you better,

00:20:56   I'd be like, well, good, it needs to be better.

00:20:58   But instead it's like, oh no,

00:20:59   they're going to launch a service that makes that,

00:21:02   that's better than the thing that they don't do very well

00:21:04   right now.

00:21:05   It's like, well, wait a second.

00:21:06   Did you choose not to make the free thing

00:21:08   that just comes with the hardware we're buying better

00:21:11   because you decided instead to make a service?

00:21:13   I just, I'm gonna be really skeptical about this

00:21:15   because what they're doing now isn't that good, right?

00:21:18   Like I would love that.

00:21:19   I use those features.

00:21:21   I use, I'm tracking my workouts

00:21:23   and I'm looking at the rings and all of that.

00:21:25   But the stuff that they offer is not interesting to me

00:21:29   in any way.

00:21:30   So, you know, hooray for them trying to do better,

00:21:33   but if it's, you know, it's better,

00:21:37   but wrapped in a service, I don't know.

00:21:39   I'm not happy about that because the baseline

00:21:41   is not very good.

00:21:42   - 'Cause like Fitness Plus,

00:21:44   there are incremental costs to that service

00:21:47   to keep adding new work.

00:21:50   - Content, right?

00:21:51   - Right, it's content.

00:21:52   You can keep adding it.

00:21:53   But if this is AI and data from devices,

00:21:58   I mean, what's the ongoing cost?

00:22:01   - Imagine if Fitness Plus,

00:22:03   what it got you was the workout app.

00:22:07   So you could say run for five minutes.

00:22:09   - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:22:11   - I'm like, oh no, this is a big service where we like,

00:22:14   no, Fitness Plus is a service because they've got trainers

00:22:17   and they've got a studio and they generate new content.

00:22:20   And that has value.

00:22:22   And I know, you know, and again,

00:22:25   offering a service for AI analysis of your data

00:22:29   and then like coaching that's built in is not unreasonable.

00:22:33   I guess what I'm saying is it feels like a tough sell

00:22:38   if that's all there is,

00:22:40   because isn't this what Apple software

00:22:43   is already supposed to be doing and not doing it well?

00:22:46   And if they make the decision

00:22:48   to not make their software better,

00:22:49   but instead build a new product that does it better,

00:22:52   I think that's a little bit,

00:22:54   I mean, I'm an Apple One subscriber presumably,

00:22:56   it would just get rolled into my feature set anyway,

00:22:58   but I don't love the idea

00:22:59   that they made it a software improvement

00:23:02   and then paywalled it essentially

00:23:04   for something they're not doing very well as it is.

00:23:06   But like I said, I think it's more likely

00:23:08   that there is more content here, right?

00:23:10   Like that it is, they're gonna say we consulted with people

00:23:13   and they're gonna be looking and that, you know,

00:23:15   we're gonna, I don't know how they're gonna pitch it,

00:23:17   but if it's all hands off and it's just in software,

00:23:20   it's not very inspiring.

00:23:21   - But I also could imagine it being part

00:23:24   of a Fitness Plus subscription.

00:23:25   - For sure.

00:23:26   - 'Cause they maybe they will be very tightly linked

00:23:29   together of like, you know, our data showing this,

00:23:33   have you considered this kind of workout to be added?

00:23:36   - This would be a great boost to Fitness Plus for sure.

00:23:39   That would be a great value add as they say to Fitness Plus.

00:23:44   That would totally, yeah.

00:23:44   - But I agree that that still doesn't answer the question

00:23:48   of like, if all it's doing is using data to interpolate

00:23:52   and show me in UI things that my Apple Watch has,

00:23:57   me having to pay for that is still complicated.

00:24:00   But I'm sure they would do, I mean, you know,

00:24:03   there are features in iCloud Plus that in theory

00:24:08   could have just been software features that Apple added.

00:24:14   - Yeah, yeah, I mean, some of them have server

00:24:16   behind the scenes, which I'm more inclined to understand.

00:24:19   But I mean, that gave me pause then too,

00:24:21   where I felt like the risk is that Apple is,

00:24:25   potentially is creating a platform that's got a bunch

00:24:27   of like tariff zones where it's like literally,

00:24:30   it's like on a road, right?

00:24:31   It's like, well, we built a new lane of the highway,

00:24:33   but we're not gonna let you in unless you pay.

00:24:35   And I don't love the idea that segments

00:24:38   of Apple's operating systems become places

00:24:41   where there are just features that you can't use

00:24:43   unless you pay them extra.

00:24:45   And so it's a delicate line to walk, is all I'm saying,

00:24:48   is when you're building a services business,

00:24:51   what's the rule that says, well,

00:24:52   this is just a software feature versus this is a service

00:24:56   that you're gonna have to pay extra for.

00:24:57   - Yeah, 'cause they have a lot of things

00:24:58   that run on their servers that you don't pay for.

00:25:00   So like, where's the line?

00:25:02   You know, and some of the say that,

00:25:05   what are the things in IACL Plus?

00:25:07   There's private relay is in there, right?

00:25:10   Stuff like that, it's like how much space on the server

00:25:13   is that taken up when you're hosting all these photos

00:25:15   and videos anyway?

00:25:16   Like, do you not have enough space

00:25:17   where you could squeeze that on?

00:25:18   Like, is it not just incremental at that point?

00:25:21   Like, I don't know, but I feel like-

00:25:22   - Private relay, I think they're actually,

00:25:24   aren't there servers for that?

00:25:26   So they have to, they pass through a separate server.

00:25:28   - That's a good point, yeah, that's a bad example.

00:25:29   - And they're using ISPs in various places or other CDNs

00:25:33   to be like the exit point and the entrance point,

00:25:35   so they can't trace you, it's double traced.

00:25:37   Like, that's my point is like, I'm much more inclined

00:25:40   to like, if Apple has to pay for all that traffic.

00:25:42   I'm less inclined when it's sort of like,

00:25:44   oh, this is just a piece of software

00:25:45   that we decided you don't get, unless you pay us more.

00:25:49   That's, I just, I always just wanna be vigilant about that

00:25:52   'cause I think that's a path Apple could walk down

00:25:54   and it would be really dangerous for the user experience.

00:25:59   - Hide my email then, I think that's a better example.

00:26:01   - Oh yeah, sure.

00:26:02   - Because with sign in with Apple-

00:26:06   - Literally Apple's email server.

00:26:08   - Yeah, it's like sign in with Apple offers this feature,

00:26:10   right, in a way, like you can hide your email

00:26:13   when you do sign in with Apple, you don't have to pay for that

00:26:15   but you do pay for it with hide my email with iCloud Plus.

00:26:18   So that doesn't necessarily feel like something

00:26:23   that you would need to pay for.

00:26:25   - Yeah.

00:26:25   - Or like custom email domains, you know?

00:26:29   - So, I mean, turning back to this feature for a second,

00:26:31   like I think there are lots of opportunities here.

00:26:34   Of course, there's opportunities for people to complain

00:26:36   about Sherlocking, but like as somebody who's done

00:26:38   like the couch to 5K plan and now it's been a while

00:26:41   as we detailed in a previous Snell Talk, I think.

00:26:44   It's been a while since I've run, I'm doing a lot

00:26:46   of brisk dog walking with my 12 month old dog,

00:26:48   but I wanna get back to running at some point.

00:26:51   And like having been through that couch to 5K experience

00:26:54   a couple of times, I would love a program where I say,

00:26:58   "I wanna run regularly, but you need to get me up to speed."

00:27:02   That could actually like look, instead of it being

00:27:05   a prefab program, which is what those couch to 5K things are

00:27:08   and they work pretty well, but like, would it be cool

00:27:11   and interesting and maybe useful if it was literally looking

00:27:14   at my heart rate and my recovery and adjusting how quickly

00:27:19   I need to have my program adjust?

00:27:21   And for me to go to the workouts app and literally just say,

00:27:24   I'm gonna do my run thing and for it to know,

00:27:26   "Okay, great, I know what intervals to put you on

00:27:29   to get you to where you wanna go.

00:27:31   I know how long it's been since you ran the last time

00:27:33   and so I'm gonna adjust for that."

00:27:34   Like there's an opportunity for it

00:27:38   and I think it would be reasonable for that to be built

00:27:40   into Apple software on the Apple Watch especially.

00:27:43   I think you absolutely could build that in

00:27:45   and it would have a lot of value.

00:27:47   So like there's plenty of room here for stuff like that.

00:27:50   I think maybe I feel like maybe more stuff like that

00:27:53   than nagging you that you haven't run in a little while.

00:27:57   - Yeah, this is more proactive.

00:27:59   Like the Apple Watch and health are very retroactive, right?

00:28:02   Like you did this thing, here's the results of that.

00:28:04   You've done this thing and now it's changed.

00:28:06   But you going into the health app and saying like,

00:28:09   I wanna be able to run a 5K in six months time or whatever.

00:28:12   And it's like, all right, great, here is your exercise plan.

00:28:16   Like that-- - And it'll adjust.

00:28:17   - Yeah, knowing you.

00:28:18   - Oh, I only did it two times this week

00:28:20   'cause that's what happens with my catch to 5K plan

00:28:22   is if I only ran two times this week,

00:28:25   then do I go to day three of the previous week

00:28:28   or do I skip that one and just go ahead and see how I do?

00:28:32   And like, it would be really nice if the software was like,

00:28:35   I got you covered.

00:28:36   Like I've changed everything to stretch it around

00:28:39   and it'll still work.

00:28:40   And that would be a cool, fun,

00:28:43   and it's certainly easier feature to use

00:28:46   than me finding an app and editing the, right?

00:28:50   Like I don't wanna have to do that.

00:28:52   So that's all, there's a lot of great potential

00:28:54   for stuff like that.

00:28:55   - And I would say I would pay for that too, right?

00:28:57   Like, 'cause that feels cool.

00:29:00   I mean, just like people pay for running training apps

00:29:02   and stuff now, like it would be,

00:29:04   and it could be again, tying it into Apple Fitness.

00:29:07   What if I said, I wanna be able to do

00:29:10   a 60 minute bike workout or I wanna,

00:29:14   or I wanna be able to ride my bike 50 miles

00:29:18   and how, what does it take for me to get there

00:29:21   and have it build a program for me?

00:29:23   All of that stuff, it's basically saying

00:29:25   we're gonna use software instead of you hiring

00:29:27   a personal trainer.

00:29:28   And I think that's valid 'cause lots of people

00:29:30   are not gonna hire a personal trainer.

00:29:32   So this is the next best thing.

00:29:35   - So more from Mark's report,

00:29:36   the health app for iPadOS is likely to be announced

00:29:39   at WWDC along with an overall redesign

00:29:42   of the health app for iPhone.

00:29:45   The app will get new features like the ability

00:29:47   to manually input emotional states,

00:29:49   basically like a mood tracker, a quote from the article.

00:29:52   The initial version of the emotion tracker

00:29:54   will let users log their mood, answer questions

00:29:57   about their day and compare their results over time.

00:30:01   But in the future, Apple is hoping the iPhone

00:30:03   could use algorithms to determine a user's mood

00:30:06   via their speech, what words they've typed

00:30:08   and other data on their devices.

00:30:10   That second part, I wouldn't do that personally.

00:30:14   Don't know if that's a good idea, but we'll see.

00:30:17   - Well, if it's all on device,

00:30:19   this is like that app that records everything

00:30:22   that you do on your Mac and indexes it, right?

00:30:25   Like there are concerns, although if it's Apple,

00:30:27   doing it and it's all on your device

00:30:29   and it stays on your device.

00:30:30   So as I am predicting slides today,

00:30:36   let me predict another slide, Mike, for WWDC,

00:30:39   which is a slide or for the iPhone event or for both, right?

00:30:42   Because they'll roll out the OS at the iPhone event.

00:30:46   It's health includes mental health.

00:30:48   - Yeah.

00:30:49   - That's gonna be the slide, right?

00:30:50   Which is health includes mental health

00:30:53   and mental health awareness is important and it is,

00:30:56   and that they'll say, "Here are some things

00:30:58   "that we're gonna do in the health app for mental health."

00:31:02   And including things as simple as an emotion tracker,

00:31:05   but also down the road, perhaps,

00:31:10   they find ways to sort of detect your mood.

00:31:14   Yeah, exactly via your speech or what you've typed

00:31:16   and your sentiment analysis of every text message

00:31:19   that you send, I don't know.

00:31:20   - Yeah, I'm not sure if that's good.

00:31:21   I'm not sure if it's good for the iPhone to be like,

00:31:24   "Hey, are you sad?"

00:31:26   I'm not sure if that's scientifically accurate.

00:31:28   - I just don't know if that's a good idea.

00:31:30   I'm not sure that's the relationship people are looking for

00:31:35   with their devices, like for the phone to be like,

00:31:38   "You seem like having a bad day.

00:31:39   "You having a bad day?"

00:31:40   I was like, "I don't know."

00:31:42   That feels weird to me.

00:31:43   - I think there's some validity to it though.

00:31:45   Kate in the Discord points out

00:31:47   that mood tracking apps already exist.

00:31:49   This is a thing that is a tool.

00:31:51   It's not gonna solve everything for everyone,

00:31:53   but a tool for people that has some positive result

00:31:58   of tracking your state and then looking back later

00:32:01   and seeing sort of like what's going on

00:32:04   as a whether it's just sort of life logging

00:32:06   or whether there's value in it.

00:32:07   I think we should, at this point, we need to say

00:32:09   we are not mental health experts, so we can't say,

00:32:13   but I feel like there could be validity here.

00:32:15   - I believe in this idea.

00:32:17   Like, please, what I'm saying is

00:32:20   the idea of having this feature is great.

00:32:22   The idea of the phone trying to guess my mood,

00:32:26   that's what I don't want. - Oh, sentiment analysis

00:32:28   based on the text you send.

00:32:29   - Yes. - Like I said,

00:32:30   I'm open to the idea that it could be

00:32:32   scientifically accurate, but I'm really skeptical.

00:32:36   - Because you've also got to be able to understand

00:32:40   how each person talks within each friend group.

00:32:44   - Yes, exactly right.

00:32:46   The context of every conversation is going to be different.

00:32:49   - I don't know.

00:32:50   That just feels like it's going to produce,

00:32:53   would produce so many false positives.

00:32:55   I just, I'm not sure about that.

00:32:57   Anyway, this, when I read this, right,

00:32:59   I was like, oh, emotional tracking,

00:33:01   feels like it would fit in with that journaling app.

00:33:04   Mark Gurman says, "The mood and emotion tracking features

00:33:07   "are separate from a new journaling app

00:33:09   "that Apple is planning for this year.

00:33:11   "That app isn't meant to be a health feature,"

00:33:14   the people said, "and Apple is unlikely

00:33:16   "to position it as such."

00:33:18   Mark says that this feature, the journaling feature,

00:33:21   more closely aligns with the Find My service

00:33:24   as a way to add more quote,

00:33:26   "social networking elements to iOS."

00:33:29   I don't understand any of this.

00:33:32   - Off the top of my head, my theory is that if you're,

00:33:34   if it's got Find My data, it's going to let you say things

00:33:39   like I was here with these people, right?

00:33:42   Because if you've got your friends in your Find My,

00:33:45   so it knows that you and I are together at WWDC

00:33:48   and I create my journal entry there

00:33:50   'cause we share Find My information,

00:33:52   I always know where Mike is.

00:33:53   And I can say, oh, I was with Mike and Steven

00:33:59   and it's gonna say, I'm gonna say new journal entry

00:34:02   and it's gonna be like, well, you're in Cupertino

00:34:04   and you were with Mike and Steven today.

00:34:07   That's like, they've got that data, right?

00:34:09   So, okay, I don't know how groundbreaking that is,

00:34:13   but they've got that data, they could do that.

00:34:15   And I could see with some of their other metadata

00:34:17   that they've got from maps and places like that,

00:34:19   that if you drove through a national park

00:34:23   on a road trip one day, and then at the end of the day,

00:34:26   you do a journal entry and it like,

00:34:28   it knows where you woke up, it knows where you are now,

00:34:30   it knows where you went,

00:34:31   it can pull metadata about the parks,

00:34:33   it knows where you stopped,

00:34:35   it's got access to your photos that you took there.

00:34:37   There is a bunch of stuff that it could put together.

00:34:39   I don't know if I would call that social networking elements

00:34:43   but I think maybe that's what they're getting at here

00:34:46   is that with Find My, you do know like,

00:34:49   in an official Apple way, when you were with friends

00:34:53   and that they could use some of that in there to pull the,

00:34:57   again, they could also pull the photos of those people

00:35:01   that were taken that day and offer those to include

00:35:04   and maybe even offer to share some of that stuff

00:35:07   with the people.

00:35:08   I don't know, I mean, there's something there.

00:35:11   If you and I, Mike, I feel like if you and I sat around

00:35:14   a whiteboard for a day, trying to imagine

00:35:16   what our Apple journaling app would be,

00:35:19   we could probably crack what it is

00:35:20   because you can just look at their features

00:35:22   and sort of see where they're headed with this.

00:35:25   - Yeah, I do wonder though,

00:35:26   if this is gonna be really heavily focused around Find My,

00:35:29   how well it's gonna work, like.

00:35:31   - Well, closely aligned, right?

00:35:33   I don't think it's gonna be heavily,

00:35:34   I feel like Find My is one part of the package

00:35:37   because that gives them some proximity information

00:35:40   for your friends and then location services more broadly

00:35:43   lets them know where you were.

00:35:45   - Like, I'm just not sure how many people share

00:35:48   their Find My with a lot of their friends.

00:35:52   - I don't know, I've got, I mean,

00:35:54   we also have it all within the family and that's a default.

00:35:56   - Me too.

00:35:57   - If you're in the family group,

00:35:59   the family is there by default at least.

00:36:01   And so that's gonna give me my, you know,

00:36:03   you spent the weekend with your kids in Oregon kind of stuff.

00:36:07   - And I have a handful of friends in Find My,

00:36:10   but it's mostly because they're Apple people.

00:36:13   Like they're Apple focused. - Right, and we all tried it

00:36:14   out and now we share our locations with our friends.

00:36:18   Yeah, it's true.

00:36:19   - Yeah, I have some people who can see my location,

00:36:21   but I can't see theirs.

00:36:23   They took me away, Jason, but I won't ever let go.

00:36:26   Like they can see my location forever.

00:36:28   - I have one person like that

00:36:30   where I can't see his location anymore,

00:36:31   but he knows where I am and it's like, yeah, you do.

00:36:34   Yeah, you do.

00:36:35   Yeah, exactly.

00:36:37   Yeah, well, I mean, maybe part of the motivator here

00:36:39   is to sort of more closely integrate this stuff

00:36:41   to encourage Find My to be a friend, you know, attachment.

00:36:46   Like, do you start to, in group chats,

00:36:49   do you start to do more encouraging of,

00:36:52   why don't you just share your location

00:36:53   with them all the time?

00:36:54   Also, group chats do let you share a location like,

00:36:58   temporarily, so they could also do a prod there,

00:37:00   which is like, you know, do you want to share,

00:37:04   you seem like you might be getting ready

00:37:06   to visit your friends, should we all share our locations?

00:37:09   That kind of thing too, possibly.

00:37:11   - There have been more reports this week.

00:37:14   This one from The Information.

00:37:17   The Information is detailing some of Apple's AI efforts

00:37:20   and how Siri is developing at the company.

00:37:24   I've got some framing for this kind of, you know,

00:37:26   we always like to think about with some of these reports,

00:37:29   especially some of these bigger reports,

00:37:31   where are they coming from?

00:37:32   And this kind of, this for me came from MacRumors

00:37:35   writing about The Information article.

00:37:37   Says, "The extensive pay-ward report explains

00:37:40   why former Apple employees who worked in the company's

00:37:43   AI and machine learning groups believe that a lack

00:37:45   of ambition and organizational dysfunction

00:37:48   have hindered Siri and the company's AI technologies."

00:37:51   So, because of a bunch of things that we can talk about,

00:37:54   lots of engineers have left, continue to leave Apple

00:37:56   as this world heats up.

00:37:58   Apple is a cautious company.

00:38:00   The AI industry, currently right now, not very cautious.

00:38:04   So I could imagine there are a lot of people

00:38:06   who are interested in this kind of technology

00:38:08   who are frustrated at Apple and then leaving

00:38:13   and then talking about it.

00:38:16   And so, you know, I always feel like some of these things,

00:38:20   take them with a grain of salt, right?

00:38:21   Like, especially this particular thing,

00:38:25   the type of person who maybe really cares about AI right now

00:38:29   and wants to do interesting things in AI,

00:38:31   maybe Apple's the wrong company for them.

00:38:33   Like, I don't know, right?

00:38:35   But that, you know, talking about their experience.

00:38:38   - I mean, this is a thing that keeps coming up,

00:38:40   which I think there's truth in,

00:38:41   which is Apple is going to be way less willing.

00:38:46   Like, look at what happened.

00:38:47   Look at what happened with Microsoft and then with Google,

00:38:51   with this whole rush to put these things out there.

00:38:56   And immediately what you get is the embarrassing stuff

00:38:59   where the chat bot tells a reporter to leave his wife

00:39:02   for the chat bot, where there are like lies

00:39:06   and made up information and strange behavior

00:39:09   and other stuff.

00:39:10   Like, Apple doesn't want to do that.

00:39:12   Apple does not want to do that.

00:39:13   And they can't.

00:39:14   - Microsoft have been let go, right?

00:39:16   Like, people were saying Microsoft have to change this,

00:39:19   they have to change this.

00:39:20   Microsoft didn't.

00:39:21   And now everyone's just kind of like,

00:39:23   okay, they're not changing it.

00:39:25   This is not something that would go away for Apple.

00:39:27   Like, I'm reminded of it's, you know, remember the,

00:39:30   we brought up a bunch, we were super mad about it

00:39:32   at the time, the report that The Guardian had

00:39:34   about Siri listening to people and like, you know,

00:39:38   like that kind of thing, like maybe other companies

00:39:41   would have been let go, like, but no, we would,

00:39:43   like the media, which holds Apple to a higher standard

00:39:47   because of their scale and their size

00:39:49   and the way they talk about themselves

00:39:51   and the things that they do.

00:39:52   Like, if a tech columnist used a new Siri,

00:39:56   and as you mentioned, like Siri said,

00:39:58   leave your wife, I'm in love with you.

00:40:01   It's just not, I just can't imagine that will fly with them.

00:40:04   - There is a, Apple is, it's not just that Apple

00:40:07   has a higher standard, it is also that Apple

00:40:09   is held to a higher standard.

00:40:10   And you know, I can't envision Apple rolling out something

00:40:14   and saying, aha, look, it shows how committed we are

00:40:18   to the future of technology.

00:40:20   No, it's gonna make things up and lie to you now,

00:40:24   but, but aren't we cool?

00:40:27   Like, they just, they don't do that.

00:40:30   They don't do that.

00:40:31   So I think the challenge is, oh, by the way,

00:40:35   that the employees, one of the things they quote

00:40:40   in this report is these employees who are part of a purchase

00:40:45   who left for Google.

00:40:48   And I thought it was really funny

00:40:49   'cause I don't actually know anything about this,

00:40:50   but this happened earlier this year,

00:40:53   and I thought, when was that purchase?

00:40:57   And it turns out it was like March or April.

00:41:01   And I'm like, yeah, I mean, also their deal

00:41:05   to stay at Apple probably expired.

00:41:08   Then they left, like there are other explanations here,

00:41:11   but here's what I understand.

00:41:12   And I think this is true of a lot of Apple stuff,

00:41:14   which is Apple's way of doing things is not the same way

00:41:16   as other tech companies' way of doing things.

00:41:19   And they're gonna be people who get frustrated.

00:41:22   And I think AI is a great example of this

00:41:24   because everybody's talking about their field

00:41:27   and nobody can see what they're doing

00:41:28   because they're doing it inside at Apple.

00:41:30   And Apple's not willing to let it out

00:41:31   because it's not good enough yet.

00:41:33   And it's like, but they did it

00:41:35   and it's good enough for them.

00:41:36   And Apple's like, that is not an answer.

00:41:38   We cannot do it that way.

00:41:40   And both of those things are true.

00:41:43   I get it.

00:41:44   I get that you might be frustrated.

00:41:46   So on one level, am I concerned about Siri?

00:41:51   Yeah, right?

00:41:54   We should all be concerned about Siri.

00:41:57   And this article makes me concerned

00:42:01   in the sense that it may be suggesting

00:42:03   that Apple's AI research is being suppressed

00:42:08   at the highest levels.

00:42:09   But as we always warn on upgrade, consider the source.

00:42:14   It's probably mostly people who have left

00:42:17   or it's people on the outside of the Siri group at Apple.

00:42:20   'Cause there was some of the reports are like,

00:42:22   yeah, even people at Apple are frustrated by Siri.

00:42:25   But like, at the same time,

00:42:29   it is like Apple's higher standard means

00:42:34   that Apple needs to be cautious here.

00:42:36   But what I don't know

00:42:38   and what none of us probably know is,

00:42:40   is the, if Tim Cook says,

00:42:44   no, no, no, no, no, we can't do it that way.

00:42:47   Is he suppressing, is he providing support

00:42:50   for the idea that Apple has a higher standard

00:42:52   or is he suppressing any attempts

00:42:53   at actually doing this stuff?

00:42:55   And that's, I mean, it's possible that Apple standard

00:42:57   is so high that Apple basically can't do this stuff now.

00:43:00   And I guess my argument would be,

00:43:02   is what's it worth to you?

00:43:07   What's AI worth to you?

00:43:09   Because if they did an AI powered Siri,

00:43:14   that isn't, what does the story say?

00:43:17   There are 20 writers who pre-write Siri answers.

00:43:19   Cook and others senior executives

00:43:21   requested changes to Siri to prevent embarrassing responses

00:43:24   and the company prefers Siri's responses

00:43:26   to be pre-written by a team of around 20 writers

00:43:28   rather than AI generated.

00:43:29   I don't believe that this is the full picture to this story

00:43:33   because that makes it sound like every time you ask Siri

00:43:36   for something, there is a response

00:43:38   that's written by one of 20 people

00:43:40   and I don't think that's accurate.

00:43:43   I feel like that that is for specific things

00:43:46   where they've decided they want

00:43:47   a specifically pre-written response.

00:43:51   - Yeah, they are looking at the most commonly asked things

00:43:54   and they have pre-written responses

00:43:56   or sets of styles of response for those.

00:43:59   Still, oh, to be on the Siri writing team, right?

00:44:01   What do you do?

00:44:02   I write for Siri. - No, sorry.

00:44:02   - It's like being on the late night.

00:44:03   No, I think it would be terrible,

00:44:05   but it'd be interesting. (laughing)

00:44:07   Like a late night talk show host,

00:44:08   kind of writer, talk show writer, except it's for Siri.

00:44:12   So like this is the challenges.

00:44:16   Is there a release that Apple could do

00:44:19   that would be up to its standards

00:44:21   that would also use this technology?

00:44:22   Or is this technology not really good enough yet?

00:44:25   And we talk a lot about the VR headset

00:44:28   about how you need to get it out there

00:44:30   and you need to expose it to the world.

00:44:32   And I could make that argument

00:44:34   that the right thing for them to do

00:44:35   is probably at some point to release a,

00:44:38   let people opt into a beta of Siri 2

00:44:41   that has the AI stuff in it,

00:44:45   but is also has a lot of like, it's a beta,

00:44:48   press this button if it says something weird.

00:44:51   And even at that point, can Apple get there?

00:44:55   Or is it just, is this technology?

00:44:57   'Cause again, what are we rushing to

00:44:59   is the other thing I would say.

00:45:00   It's like, there are a lot of benefits to this AI stuff.

00:45:03   There's a report in here about like the,

00:45:07   putting the kibosh on conversational Siri.

00:45:10   They're like, no, no, no, no, no, that's too weird.

00:45:12   We're not gonna do that.

00:45:13   Well, no, that's one of the weakest points of Siri

00:45:15   is that there's no way to do conversations.

00:45:18   But like, this is what I'm struggling with is,

00:45:20   Apple, is there something here?

00:45:25   And I think there probably is.

00:45:26   I mean, there's definitely a chance that this AI stuff

00:45:29   ends up being way less useful than people think it is now

00:45:35   and that Apple will be proven right.

00:45:37   But I think it's more likely that there is a,

00:45:40   this is gonna all shake out

00:45:41   and it's gonna get good really fast

00:45:44   and good and accurate and not weird.

00:45:47   'Cause that's all part of the challenge here.

00:45:48   And like, does Apple lose out by waiting for that moment?

00:45:53   Because like, I don't know,

00:45:57   we're just about to enter the era.

00:45:58   In fact, I just got it today for Google

00:46:00   where Google said, congratulations,

00:46:02   you can be in the beta to use the AI powered Google apps.

00:46:07   - Oh.

00:46:08   - And Microsoft is doing the same thing.

00:46:11   Like we're getting very close to the point

00:46:12   where this stuff is gonna be

00:46:13   much more aggressively productized.

00:46:15   And I think that the clock starts to tick

00:46:17   a little bit more for Apple then.

00:46:18   But I also like, again,

00:46:20   would I want Siri to be powered by the stuff

00:46:25   that I've seen so far?

00:46:26   And the answer is probably not, right?

00:46:28   Because you don't want to have those embarrassing mistakes

00:46:33   where it confabulates things.

00:46:35   And like, you want something where Siri is hooked up

00:46:38   to data sources and knows things that are accurate,

00:46:40   but can also actually have a conversation

00:46:42   and understand the context.

00:46:43   And I don't know, it's a real predicament they're in.

00:46:47   And this story makes me less optimistic about it.

00:46:51   And yet at the same time,

00:46:52   I don't want to give too much credit to the idea

00:46:55   that Apple executives are fuddy duddies

00:46:57   who don't want to release a product

00:46:59   that will make things up, right?

00:47:01   Like there is, and I can guess if you're an engineer on it,

00:47:05   you're like, no, I want to try things in public

00:47:06   like the other cool kids.

00:47:07   It's like, I get it, but maybe the adult supervision

00:47:11   needs to step in and say, no,

00:47:13   we're not going to release a chat bot that lies about facts.

00:47:17   We can't do it.

00:47:20   We can't do it.

00:47:20   - In 2019, a team of engineers created a new version

00:47:24   of Siri code named Blackbird that was more lightweight

00:47:28   and offered the ability for developers

00:47:29   to offer up information to Siri.

00:47:32   However, Apple went of another effort called Siri 10,

00:47:35   Siri X 10, it was the 10th anniversary.

00:47:38   - Whatever.

00:47:39   - That aimed to move the processing to on-device

00:47:41   for privacy reasons.

00:47:43   This removed the modular approach.

00:47:44   This is what Apple ended up choosing of the two options.

00:47:48   And that's what we have now, right?

00:47:49   Where Siri is more and more and more on-device.

00:47:52   My question for this is like, why not do both?

00:47:55   Like, I don't know why they haven't done both.

00:47:56   Like, I like the idea of developers being able

00:47:59   to plug in information into Siri.

00:48:02   - You have to go off device at some point, right?

00:48:03   And I think the model that I keep being intrigued by

00:48:07   is what ChatGPT now has plugin support.

00:48:11   And basically what you're doing is,

00:48:13   a lot of these demos that people have seen is,

00:48:15   it's people asking questions of the large language model.

00:48:18   The problem is the large language model is a training model

00:48:20   that was run at some point in the,

00:48:22   so you can't ask it really about current events

00:48:24   or anything like that,

00:48:25   because it's sort of putting it

00:48:27   based on its document training.

00:48:29   But with the ChatGPT plugins, what you end up with is,

00:48:33   that Chatbot large language model

00:48:35   that also has access to internet data sources.

00:48:40   And that, I think,

00:48:43   from the moment I read about it for the first time,

00:48:45   I thought, well, that is the path forward for Siri,

00:48:47   certainly, and for any of these intelligent assistants,

00:48:50   is you wanna use the large language model,

00:48:51   not for facts, but for understanding.

00:48:55   And I know they don't really understand you,

00:48:57   but you know, they sorta do.

00:48:59   They can understand from the context what it is,

00:49:02   and then they can go get, using their plugins,

00:49:05   using their data sources, the right answer,

00:49:07   and then they can phrase that right answer

00:49:09   in a way that is natural.

00:49:11   And like, that is what Siri should be, right?

00:49:16   But it needs to be using reliable data sources,

00:49:20   so that if you ask it a question, right,

00:49:22   like, 'cause there's, why do we use Siri, right?

00:49:24   We use it to do controls.

00:49:26   We use it to do basic stuff like play this song

00:49:29   and all of that.

00:49:30   I would argue that, yes, that is a place

00:49:32   where Siri is frustratingly unreliable

00:49:34   and needs to be better.

00:49:35   Like, it absolutely does.

00:49:37   And when I see the behavior of like the Google assistant

00:49:41   that I have in my kitchen now,

00:49:42   it's remarkable how good it is,

00:49:46   and Siri is not that good.

00:49:48   It needs to be better.

00:49:50   But like, that some of it is sort of pre-baked in stuff.

00:49:52   And then there's the more complicated stuff

00:49:54   where you're basically asking Siri

00:49:55   for questions about the world.

00:49:57   And that's the stuff where the AI chatbots

00:50:00   can shine, but it needs to be real, right?

00:50:02   Which is why you need that second layer.

00:50:04   And I hope that's the way that Apple

00:50:06   is building next-gen Siri,

00:50:09   is you can have a conversational AI model

00:50:13   that runs on the device even.

00:50:15   And then you give it access to the internet

00:50:18   or for data from other apps, right?

00:50:21   That seems natural.

00:50:23   And it uses those to get the information

00:50:27   and then bring it back to you in a form that you expect.

00:50:29   Like that makes sense to me.

00:50:31   - The headset team has wanted to make

00:50:34   their own voice control method

00:50:36   because they felt Siri was not good enough.

00:50:38   This was overridden, obviously.

00:50:40   Can you imagine?

00:50:43   - I think that that's really like,

00:50:45   and that's funny.

00:50:48   - Yeah.

00:50:49   - I totally get it, right?

00:50:50   Where it's like, oh God, Siri, I don't wanna use that.

00:50:53   Can we just keep it simple?

00:50:53   Can we just build our own thing?

00:50:56   And I can see why that might be.

00:50:59   On the one hand, I can see how some project like that,

00:51:02   they probably were thinking, well, yeah, we do this.

00:51:04   And then we take over Siri, right?

00:51:06   We do this and we show that we're better at it than they are

00:51:08   and we take it over.

00:51:09   And at some point they're like, folks,

00:51:11   you gotta build a headset.

00:51:12   You're not here to build a voice control system.

00:51:16   But it's telling, right?

00:51:17   It's gotta be, right?

00:51:19   They've got, everybody's gotta know, right?

00:51:20   Everybody's gotta know that it's not good enough.

00:51:25   And the, yes, the most troubling thing in this report

00:51:29   is the feeling that everybody at Apple

00:51:30   knows it's not good enough.

00:51:32   And yet, as far as we can tell,

00:51:35   they have really struggled to make it better.

00:51:39   And this contains some details that we've heard before

00:51:41   about the idea that the current Siri takes months to,

00:51:44   or weeks to build like modifications to the model,

00:51:47   'cause it's this old tech that has been built up over time.

00:51:51   But yeah, that's the most dispiriting thing to me is,

00:51:54   there's no smoking gun in here that says,

00:51:57   ah, but they are working on the future of Siri.

00:52:01   And the report is much more like, no, it's a mess.

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00:54:15   We've been talking over the last couple of weeks

00:54:19   about what watchOS 10 could look like

00:54:23   after Mark Gurman reported that there was going to be

00:54:26   some big UI changes to watchOS 10.

00:54:30   In his Power On newsletter over the weekend,

00:54:31   Mark shared a little bit more about this.

00:54:34   This version of watchOS will focus on widgets

00:54:37   and quote, "Fundamental changes to how the device will work."

00:54:41   So when we were talking about this,

00:54:42   we were talking about glances,

00:54:44   we were talking about widgets,

00:54:45   you know, the glances back from the original days of watchOS,

00:54:48   you know, these things you'd swipe up

00:54:49   and would see these little pieces of information

00:54:52   and how we thought,

00:54:52   "Oh, maybe widgets could be kind of like that."

00:54:55   And this seems like exactly what they're going to be doing

00:54:57   with widgets becoming a central part

00:54:59   of the interface for watchOS.

00:55:01   Quote from Mark's piece,

00:55:02   "The plan is to let users scroll through a series

00:55:05   of different widgets for activity tracking,

00:55:07   whether stock tickers, calendar appointments, or more,

00:55:09   rather than having them launch apps.

00:55:13   The new interface will be reminiscent

00:55:15   of the Siri watch face introduced in watchOS 4,

00:55:18   but it will be available as an overlay for any watch face.

00:55:21   It's also similar to widget stacks in iOS and iPadOS

00:55:25   that lets users pile many widgets in one

00:55:28   and scroll through them.

00:55:30   Apple is testing the idea that a press of the digital crown

00:55:34   may show these widgets now,

00:55:36   instead of showing the app's home screen."

00:55:39   What do you think of this?

00:55:41   - I am excited about the idea

00:55:44   that Apple is going to do a real kind of refresh,

00:55:48   rethink of watchOS, 'cause it's really been a while.

00:55:51   And I love this idea.

00:55:54   I mean, I like widgets.

00:55:56   I think the idea of getting information up on the top level

00:56:00   and not being, not using apps,

00:56:03   unless you're doing some very specific kind of interactions

00:56:06   is all good.

00:56:07   I'm, why do they keep mentioning stock tickers?

00:56:11   I don't know.

00:56:13   - 'Cause it's one of the ones Apple's building, right?

00:56:15   Like they're always working on stocks.

00:56:17   - They're always stocks.

00:56:18   They gotta, 'cause people at Apple have stock options.

00:56:21   Even Tim Cook, he wants his stocks on his Apple watch.

00:56:24   I don't love that, but I love this idea

00:56:27   that more glanceable information, right?

00:56:29   Like that's great.

00:56:31   The complications are great, but they are limited.

00:56:36   And so if they find another way to get things out

00:56:39   basically on or overlaid on the watch face,

00:56:43   I'm all for it.

00:56:45   Like I have that too, where like I have occasionally

00:56:47   this information that I wanna have

00:56:49   like in a large widget on modular.

00:56:51   And I don't wanna create like 10 different modulars

00:56:56   with a different thing in the center.

00:56:57   One for weather, one for baseball scores or whatever.

00:57:00   Like it would be awfully nice

00:57:02   if I had a little more flexibility there.

00:57:03   So I'm not knowing a lot of details here.

00:57:06   I'm actually kind of excited about this

00:57:09   because while I do use watch apps and I find value in them,

00:57:14   the whole goal should be to get as much as you can

00:57:18   out onto the watch face because that's where people live.

00:57:22   - Do you remember there was a rumor

00:57:24   that widgets might get some basic interactivity,

00:57:27   button presses and stuff like that?

00:57:31   Now, if this could maybe be tied into that,

00:57:33   that like if you were gonna mostly replace

00:57:36   the user interface of watch apps with these widgets,

00:57:40   that being able to press the occasional button

00:57:42   might be a helpful thing to have

00:57:44   in the overall widget spec, right?

00:57:46   If this kind of was gonna find its way to the watch.

00:57:49   So maybe they would just do it for everything.

00:57:53   But yeah, I'm into this idea in general too.

00:57:56   I think that for me, all of the watch apps that I use,

00:58:01   like realistically watch apps that I use,

00:58:05   a widget would suffice by and large for what I want to do.

00:58:10   Outside of responding to a message,

00:58:14   so using a little keyboard,

00:58:16   the majority of stuff that I'm doing,

00:58:18   I'm looking at my watch to check a thing

00:58:20   as opposed to looking at my watch to be like,

00:58:24   let's get something done.

00:58:25   The occasional press of a complete button

00:58:29   or something like that is good,

00:58:31   but by and large, widgets would be great.

00:58:36   - Yeah, I use, what watch apps do I use?

00:58:39   I mean, I use it to kick off an activity.

00:58:42   I use it to pick a podcast or start a podcast in Overcast.

00:58:46   Like there are a few things where I very specifically do it,

00:58:49   but most of what I've got is data on the watch face

00:58:53   or it's data, right?

00:58:54   Like, it's weather or it's a sports score

00:58:59   or it's, I don't know, stuff like that.

00:59:03   The activity rings and things like that,

00:59:05   that you could just, you could get it as a glance

00:59:07   or get by pushing the digital crown or something like that

00:59:10   and seeing this stuff.

00:59:11   I think there's more to be done there.

00:59:13   And yes, if they could add interactivity all the better,

00:59:16   'cause that even, that reduces it even further, right?

00:59:19   - And also like I imagine for developers,

00:59:21   I'm gonna talk a little bit more

00:59:21   about developers in a minute,

00:59:22   but this is instead of having to build a watch app,

00:59:26   which I'm sure will still exist, right?

00:59:27   There will still be watch apps.

00:59:28   Instead of having to build a watch app,

00:59:30   you can be on the Apple Watch with your widget, right?

00:59:35   So like you can still be on that platform

00:59:37   and give the information without having to go

00:59:40   through the entire thing of building and maintaining

00:59:43   and updating a watch app.

00:59:45   But you can still be with the customer on their watch

00:59:48   by enabling your widget instead,

00:59:51   or a version of your widget,

00:59:52   which might be easier to manage

00:59:54   'cause they're all in SwiftUI, right?

00:59:56   So the watch understands SwiftUI.

00:59:58   So like I can imagine that being a better experience overall.

01:00:02   Our friend underscore, the WidgetSmith,

01:00:06   pointed out to us in Slack that this could make sense

01:00:09   as to why in watchOS 9,

01:00:12   Apple migrated complications to the widget kit frameworks

01:00:16   away from the what was called clock kit framework

01:00:19   for complications, I should say.

01:00:21   So they moved complications from clock kit to widget kit

01:00:26   and was wondering if,

01:00:27   oh, I wonder if this might've been one of the reasons

01:00:29   they did that was to start that migration over

01:00:32   before widgets became central to the platform.

01:00:36   - Yeah, I think this is Apple playing the longer game,

01:00:41   right, 'cause Apple hates to use one technology

01:00:46   for one thing, right?

01:00:48   They're all about reuse these days, right?

01:00:50   You can't run all of these different platforms

01:00:52   without reuse.

01:00:53   So the idea that you could take the work you did on widgets

01:00:57   on iPhone and have it be on the Apple Watch, that's great.

01:01:01   I love it, right?

01:01:02   I love that idea.

01:01:04   So, you know, bring it on, I say.

01:01:08   I think there's some questions about,

01:01:09   as somebody who has a cellular Apple Watch,

01:01:11   I had that question about like,

01:01:13   can the widget run on device without talking back

01:01:17   to the iPhone?

01:01:18   Because I'm not always with my iPhone.

01:01:20   I would like it to be independent.

01:01:21   But I also like the idea of them not having to build

01:01:23   a whole Apple Watch app in order to get their widget running.

01:01:27   - I would imagine to do that,

01:01:29   you just got to load the SIFT UI code or the widget

01:01:32   onto the watch, right?

01:01:33   Which the phone could pass off.

01:01:35   And they wouldn't need to be necessarily connected

01:01:39   to do that.

01:01:40   - I am not a developer.

01:01:42   - Neither am I, but I'm just saying things.

01:01:44   - Yeah, and generally, I just believe that having as much

01:01:48   stuff out on the face or very,

01:01:51   'cause I'm unclear about whether this is sort of like

01:01:54   complication you scroll through

01:01:56   or whether it's a widget view that you swipe to display

01:01:59   instead or exactly what this interface is for widgets.

01:02:03   Or if you push the side button and the widgets come up.

01:02:06   But it needs to be like,

01:02:07   at a high level, very easy to get to and see.

01:02:11   And I like that, right?

01:02:13   Like that feels Apple Watchy to me.

01:02:16   And I don't want them to get rid of Apple Watch apps

01:02:18   because I do find some of them useful.

01:02:20   But yeah, getting more information out there.

01:02:21   I'll also throw out there,

01:02:24   it's still an issue where complications

01:02:27   don't update properly.

01:02:29   I still have it where my weather forecast sometimes

01:02:34   is just not right.

01:02:36   And I have to tap to bring up my app

01:02:39   and then the weather is right.

01:02:40   I'm using Carrot weather.

01:02:43   So I mean, maybe this is a Carrot weather thing,

01:02:46   but like a third party app should be able to be,

01:02:49   the data should actually like be fresh.

01:02:53   And that was part of the promise of the Apple Watch.

01:02:56   And I still feel like a lot of the apps,

01:02:57   it's not quite fresh data.

01:02:59   And I know that they wanna be aggressive

01:03:01   in saving battery and all of that.

01:03:02   But like, you also need to be accurate, right?

01:03:04   It's a little like the Siri argument.

01:03:06   It's like, I appreciate your commitment to battery health.

01:03:11   But if you show me a temperature from yesterday,

01:03:14   you're not doing your job right.

01:03:15   Like you gotta be accurate

01:03:17   with the information you show on my Apple Watch.

01:03:20   So as a part of this,

01:03:21   I would hope that the data update story is also consistent.

01:03:26   - So we spoke about potentially Apple needing

01:03:30   to have their iOS 7 moment, right?

01:03:33   So something you were mentioning on last week's episode.

01:03:35   I think it was last week or two weeks ago.

01:03:37   And what that could end up meaning for the platform.

01:03:43   And one of the things that Marc suggests

01:03:44   is that this could be an option at first.

01:03:47   And this reminded me of stage manager, right?

01:03:49   A stage manager is a thing you need to enable.

01:03:52   It's like a choice that you make.

01:03:54   And I don't imagine it being exactly like that,

01:03:57   but the idea that like you could opt into the watch

01:04:01   operating in this different way

01:04:03   until maybe a year or two down the line

01:04:06   when they make it the way that watchOS works

01:04:10   and maybe watchOS 11 or watchOS 12.

01:04:13   - Right, I mean, once they're on there, anything can happen.

01:04:16   The idea that you might have a watch face

01:04:18   that like all watch faces have a widget

01:04:20   or everybody knows how this, I don't know.

01:04:23   I feel like people like watch faces on their Apple watch,

01:04:25   but maybe it's even something like your Apple watch can be,

01:04:28   well, like it is now with the modular faces.

01:04:30   Your Apple watch can look like a watch

01:04:31   or it can be a widget gallery, right?

01:04:33   Like, and you choose, you choose what you want it to be.

01:04:36   Maybe it's just got the time and a bunch of widgets.

01:04:37   - Right, but this is what he was saying though,

01:04:40   that like it's not actually replacing the watch faces.

01:04:43   - Right.

01:04:44   - It is, it might look like the Siri watch face,

01:04:49   you know, with that like scrolling list of stuff,

01:04:52   but it will be a mode, you would activate it in some way.

01:04:56   You know, maybe you swipe or you press a button

01:04:58   and it shows you your widgets

01:05:00   because I wouldn't like that now, right?

01:05:01   Like I've come to like different watch faces

01:05:04   I think everybody has in it.

01:05:05   - Right.

01:05:06   - I think that would be the smart way to do it.

01:05:07   Not be like, I think there was a while back in watchOS 4

01:05:10   when I was pushing for make the Siri watch face

01:05:14   watchOS like just make it watchOS, right?

01:05:17   Because back then I think that made more sense,

01:05:19   but we're now so many years removed from that.

01:05:22   There are so many more watch face options.

01:05:25   They are getting better,

01:05:26   even though they're still weird in some ways.

01:05:28   And people have embedded with the types of watch faces

01:05:31   that they like that I think we've passed the point

01:05:33   where they could be like, we don't do watch faces anymore.

01:05:37   They're all computers, you know?

01:05:38   I think they've gone into fashion still a little bit

01:05:41   and so it looks and customization,

01:05:44   but I think the idea of like you press one button

01:05:47   and then all your widgets are there

01:05:48   rather than the app honeycomb or the app list,

01:05:51   that just makes a lot of sense, right?

01:05:52   Or like that recent stock or whatever, you know,

01:05:54   there's two buttons.

01:05:56   Either of those buttons could become the button

01:05:58   to show your widgets.

01:05:59   And then what they used to do could be a double tap

01:06:02   or a long press away or something like that.

01:06:04   - Right, and the Siri watch face is the model here

01:06:07   for the other way you can do this,

01:06:08   which is if you really, really like this,

01:06:09   you add your widgets watch face

01:06:12   and you scroll through all your widgets.

01:06:14   But if you don't wanna do that,

01:06:16   you just have a regular watch face

01:06:17   and then you press a button and the widgets come up.

01:06:20   - Yeah, they could just be the widget watch face.

01:06:22   - You choose, right?

01:06:24   Yeah, the widget watch face.

01:06:25   Don't say that too many times,

01:06:26   but 'cause the Siri watch face, you know,

01:06:29   basically it's got the time, right?

01:06:33   It's got like a complication,

01:06:36   but after that, it's basically just a whole stack

01:06:39   of little cards that you can scroll through.

01:06:41   So imagine those being widgets

01:06:43   and that you can place them there based on the apps

01:06:47   that you've got.

01:06:48   That's really promising, I think.

01:06:50   - So Siri watch face even something you can still add.

01:06:54   - Oh yeah, I just added it so that I could look at it.

01:06:59   Absolutely, and there's two complications you can change

01:07:03   and that's it and the color.

01:07:06   - Oh, the Dow Jones, that's good.

01:07:07   I got that right up there.

01:07:08   - Oh, good stocks.

01:07:10   - Sunset is in two hours.

01:07:12   My resting heart rate is 64 beats per minute.

01:07:15   - Yeah, it's nice.

01:07:17   - The temperature.

01:07:18   - I should take a minute for myself,

01:07:20   according to the Breathe app or whatever.

01:07:22   - It's not asking me to do that.

01:07:24   17 degrees Celsius,

01:07:27   you have to work out what that is in Fahrenheit.

01:07:29   - I don't know, it's 53 degrees Fahrenheit.

01:07:31   You have to work out what that is in Celsius.

01:07:33   - And I'm recording upgrade right now.

01:07:36   - Oh, good to know.

01:07:38   - That's what I hear.

01:07:39   So anyway, yeah, let's do it, bring it on.

01:07:43   Make the watch more useful.

01:07:44   I love my Apple watch and I use it all the time

01:07:46   and I would like to get more data on it,

01:07:49   but yes, let's do it.

01:07:53   Let's rethink this.

01:07:54   Let's get more stuff up there for people who want it.

01:07:56   And as you pointed out also,

01:07:58   accessible for people who want it,

01:07:59   but I don't use the computer watch face.

01:08:02   I use a more traditional watch face and I like it.

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01:09:19   Let's finish out with some Ask Upgrade questions

01:09:24   for this week's episode.

01:09:26   Ricardo asks, "I'm curious if you know

01:09:29   how Apple makes their keynote

01:09:31   and WWDC keynote presentations.

01:09:34   Are they just very good with the keynote app

01:09:37   or are they using something else?"

01:09:39   - I think they're using,

01:09:40   well, I think they're using keynote.

01:09:43   I think that maybe it is jazzed up a little bit at times

01:09:46   for the official video,

01:09:48   but I mean, it was made to do keynote.

01:09:52   It was made for this.

01:09:55   Certainly all the WWDC presentations that people use

01:09:58   are all in keynote,

01:09:59   but I would imagine that it's either in keynote

01:10:02   or it starts in keynote,

01:10:04   and then maybe gets taken out

01:10:07   for video production reasons later on.

01:10:09   - I remember back in the day

01:10:12   when there used to be things that would appear

01:10:17   in an Apple keynote,

01:10:19   and then those features would later get added to keynote,

01:10:22   like some transitions and animations that they would do.

01:10:26   This isn't a thing that really seems to happen anymore.

01:10:30   I don't really think that the keynotes that Apple makes

01:10:33   have these kinds of transitions anymore.

01:10:35   I think they're kind of a little bit calmer now, right?

01:10:39   And actually a lot of what they're doing is the video

01:10:42   or the stage presentation,

01:10:45   as opposed to text to fall out of the sky

01:10:48   and smoke would go everywhere, right?

01:10:50   They were cool back in the day,

01:10:52   but I think that's maybe not so much now.

01:10:54   - Yeah, they keep it simple.

01:10:55   If you look back at some of those Steve Jobs presentations,

01:10:58   now you're like, "Whew!"

01:11:00   We've gotten so austere with our presentation styles,

01:11:04   but boy, did Steve Jobs love wacky transitions.

01:11:07   He loved them.

01:11:08   And that's why keynote is what it is,

01:11:13   is that Steve Jobs was very exacting with what he wanted

01:11:16   and they built a great tool.

01:11:17   I love keynote.

01:11:18   It's one of my very favorite pieces of Apple software.

01:11:20   I think it's so good as somebody...

01:11:22   I heard from somebody who said,

01:11:23   "PowerPoint's so much better than keynote."

01:11:25   And I'm like, "Okay."

01:11:26   I haven't used PowerPoint in 10 years

01:11:28   because I used to have to do PowerPoints at IDG.

01:11:32   But I'll tell you, every time I used PowerPoint,

01:11:36   I cried because keynote was so much better

01:11:40   and I have never ever...

01:11:41   And I've got Office 365,

01:11:42   really I could use PowerPoint now if I wanted to.

01:11:45   No, I don't.

01:11:47   I don't.

01:11:47   I love keynote.

01:11:48   It's so good.

01:11:50   But yeah, the world has, I think,

01:11:53   moved on for a lot of good reasons.

01:11:55   Not like the business world,

01:11:56   but like the tech presentation world.

01:11:59   Whether you're giving a talk at a tech conference

01:12:02   or Apple, certainly.

01:12:03   It's much more minimalist, right?

01:12:05   Like they use it for specs or a picture or a simple idea

01:12:09   and not, you know, they don't need the, you know,

01:12:12   the text comes down and smashes into some other text

01:12:15   and rattles the screen.

01:12:16   Like we don't need that so much anymore.

01:12:19   - You've got to assume they're still using keynote.

01:12:21   'Cause this is like these days, it's...

01:12:24   I mean, they're probably...

01:12:25   I don't know if they're necessarily using keynote

01:12:28   to build the graphics.

01:12:29   I'm probably assuming they're not.

01:12:31   But just in like a advancing from slide to slide,

01:12:35   they're probably using keynote for that.

01:12:38   - I don't know.

01:12:38   I mean, I think it comes down

01:12:39   to how they produce their videos.

01:12:40   I would imagine that they start in keynote

01:12:42   even if they do get all buffed and made perfect

01:12:46   by whoever is in charge of those for the video presentation

01:12:50   to get them exactly right and, you know, note perfect

01:12:53   and every detail at the right resolution

01:12:55   and in the right shade for the, you know, screen and yeah.

01:12:59   - Because I'm thinking of like, you know, those screens

01:13:03   that they show all the different features.

01:13:05   Like that visual style.

01:13:08   Like I don't know if keynote can do that.

01:13:10   Like I think that's designed by somebody

01:13:13   and then it's put into keynote.

01:13:14   You know what I mean?

01:13:15   - Vincent in the discord says,

01:13:17   I think it's all Final Cut Pro

01:13:18   because there aren't slides that need to change.

01:13:21   Yeah, I mean, this is...

01:13:22   Again, I would think that they all probably start in keynote

01:13:27   because they need to be somewhere

01:13:30   and they need to build them somewhere.

01:13:32   Whether it's Final Cut Pro or there's a very...

01:13:35   Or it's Photoshop even, right?

01:13:37   Where they're building each slide to exacting detail.

01:13:40   That is a video production question, right?

01:13:43   But I think they probably all still think in keynote

01:13:46   in terms of how it's built.

01:13:47   - I went to a workshop recently at Apple

01:13:50   and they used keynote to do the presentation

01:13:53   and it was like a mini keynote.

01:13:55   Like they're like, they're advancing through their slides

01:13:57   and doing their thing and it was a keynote.

01:13:59   Like I could see it was a keynote.

01:14:01   So they still use it for presentations,

01:14:03   but for these like WWDC videos or whatever,

01:14:07   that's probably nothing on that screen, right?

01:14:11   'Cause why would they commit

01:14:14   when these videos are shot way in advance?

01:14:16   - Sometimes I'm not convinced

01:14:17   that the screen is actually even there,

01:14:19   but if it is there, there's nothing on it.

01:14:21   - That's a good point as well.

01:14:23   It might not be.

01:14:24   - It's like, well, this is a very large thing

01:14:26   that's been erected in the Steve Jobs Theater atrium.

01:14:29   It's like, is it really there?

01:14:30   I'm not sure it is.

01:14:32   I'm not sure it is.

01:14:33   Right, 'cause you could do that now

01:14:35   and you can do a camera move

01:14:36   and it all looks perfectly legitimate

01:14:37   and it's all added later.

01:14:38   So it's all motion graphics.

01:14:40   Don't believe a thing.

01:14:40   It's all made up, everybody.

01:14:42   - Even the presenters.

01:14:43   - That's what it is.

01:14:44   Yeah, whereas when they were on stage live,

01:14:47   it had to be...

01:14:48   I think when they were on stage live, it was keynote.

01:14:51   I do believe it was.

01:14:53   I could be proven wrong.

01:14:55   We don't have any facts here,

01:14:56   but I'm pretty sure it was keynote.

01:14:57   But now it's just a movie they're making basically,

01:15:00   so it could be anything.

01:15:01   - Jesse says, "Regarding the headset,

01:15:03   do you think that it would support multiple users

01:15:06   like a Mac or an Apple TV,

01:15:08   or just one user like an iPhone or an iPad?"

01:15:11   - Ooh.

01:15:12   - I read this and I was like,

01:15:13   "Oh wow, that is a excellent question

01:15:15   and something I had not at all thought about."

01:15:19   - I think it's gonna be like an Apple TV.

01:15:21   I think it's gonna support multiple users.

01:15:23   And I have just made that up off the top of my head,

01:15:25   but here's why, which is,

01:15:27   this thing's gonna be real expensive

01:15:29   and it's gonna be looking in your eyeballs

01:15:32   to do face ID or IID or whatever you wanna call it.

01:15:36   I feel like it would really make sense if the moment...

01:15:40   'Cause you know, the Apple TV really wants

01:15:42   to be a multi-user device if you let it,

01:15:45   but you've got to tell it that it's you or it doesn't work.

01:15:49   But otherwise it works pretty well.

01:15:51   You've just got to switch users.

01:15:52   Well, this thing, you put it on, it knows who it is, right?

01:15:55   It looks in your eyes and says,

01:15:56   "Is this my person or is this not my person?"

01:16:00   And if it's my person, you're authenticated

01:16:02   and you have access to everything.

01:16:04   If it's not, what does it do?

01:16:06   Does it put you in some weird guest mode?

01:16:07   Does it make you do something

01:16:09   to put in a password or something?

01:16:11   It would be logical that it behaves kind of like Apple TV

01:16:15   where it's got a bunch of preferences

01:16:18   that it switches based on who it recognizes.

01:16:20   Now, have they had time to do that

01:16:22   for release 1.0 of XROS?

01:16:25   Who knows?

01:16:26   But if I had to guess, this is what I would guess

01:16:29   is that it uses the eye scan to identify who it is

01:16:33   and let you in.

01:16:34   And if you've got another person added

01:16:36   and it recognizes their eyes, it will use their data,

01:16:40   not in a kind of Mac way, but in an Apple TV-like way.

01:16:44   - I really hope that's the case.

01:16:45   I actually think that that would be logical,

01:16:47   but I just don't know.

01:16:52   - I think it makes sense, because you do have to think like,

01:16:55   well, what happens if somebody else puts on the thing

01:16:58   and it's scanning your eyes?

01:16:59   It's like, okay, well now do you have to add

01:17:00   another Apple ID?

01:17:01   Does it say, "Nuh-uh, I can't scan?"

01:17:03   Do you have to scan a second person's eyes,

01:17:06   but use the one Apple ID?

01:17:09   Do you say, "No, it's one,

01:17:10   only one person can ever use this?"

01:17:13   Again, there are ways they could do it

01:17:15   that would be unsatisfying.

01:17:17   And maybe they have had to choose one of those

01:17:20   because they're trying to ship this thing.

01:17:22   But if I had to guess, I think it would be like Apple TV.

01:17:26   It would be that approach, which is you can add a user,

01:17:30   and they can log into their Apple ID,

01:17:32   and now it knows who they are,

01:17:33   and it changes a certain set of preferences based on that.

01:17:38   - Kat asks, "Jason, as a resident expert

01:17:41   for all things Apple Photos, I had a question for you.

01:17:44   In iOS 16 with iCloud shared photo library,

01:17:47   photos I take from my camera can automatically be added

01:17:50   to the shared library, but photos I get from other sources,

01:17:54   screenshots I save, photos I save from messaging apps,

01:17:57   get added to my personal library.

01:17:59   Is there a way to make these photos,

01:18:01   which aren't from the camera, also go to the shared library?

01:18:05   I can't find anything in the settings."

01:18:07   - Nope.

01:18:08   - You have to do it manually?

01:18:10   - Yeah, I mean, if you want to, you could,

01:18:14   I mean, the best thing to do is just every so often

01:18:16   go in and view your personal library and move them over.

01:18:21   But there's no direct hook where you can say,

01:18:25   add this to the shared library.

01:18:27   Maybe that'll be a feature they add.

01:18:29   That would be nice, right?

01:18:30   But my understanding now is that, you know,

01:18:33   they don't want to default to your shared library, right?

01:18:35   For, I think, obvious reasons.

01:18:37   And there's no sort of like setting or question

01:18:40   or automation or anything like that.

01:18:42   To my knowledge, you really have to,

01:18:44   I think, again, for obvious reasons, you have to say,

01:18:47   yes, I do actually want to put these in the shared pool.

01:18:51   Otherwise, who knows what kind of garbage would go in there?

01:18:54   I think the error on the side of just leaving stuff out

01:18:56   and then you have to add it later.

01:18:57   - Yeah, that's for the best.

01:18:59   And Ash asks, "You've mentioned many times previously

01:19:03   that you use a shared Google Doc for your show notes.

01:19:05   Have you considered moving to a pages document

01:19:08   with the collaboration features instead?

01:19:10   If so, what are the reasons you decided to stick

01:19:12   with the Google Doc?"

01:19:13   So we have a challenge on Upgrade Plus, I think,

01:19:18   at some point that we're gonna do,

01:19:20   which would be to try out pages again.

01:19:24   Every time I try pages in the past,

01:19:26   the reliability of real-time updating has not been there.

01:19:31   And that has been very important.

01:19:33   It's very important for me.

01:19:35   Like as Jason is currently trying to distract me

01:19:37   by changing the size of the text

01:19:39   and putting things into our document.

01:19:41   So it can be distracting, but it's also important.

01:19:44   Because like, for example, earlier on,

01:19:45   when we were talking about the watch,

01:19:48   yeah, the Siri section, right?

01:19:52   I was moving things around within that side of that section

01:19:55   and deleting things as me and Jason

01:19:57   were jumping ahead of ourselves and talking about them.

01:20:00   And that stopped us from repeating anything

01:20:02   or reading something and going over it again

01:20:04   when we didn't need to.

01:20:06   Now, if that syncing wasn't being done in real-time

01:20:09   or was being done in chunks,

01:20:11   that would not have been as helpful

01:20:13   for the way that we produce this show.

01:20:15   And like at a certain point,

01:20:16   I've become so used to this as a feature.

01:20:19   It is actually really important to me.

01:20:21   Google Docs though, in general, is feature rich.

01:20:24   It's easy to use and we have inertia in it.

01:20:27   Like I'm always willing to try it.

01:20:28   And every couple of years, I try all of the apps.

01:20:32   See, like, you know, all of the apps that I like

01:20:34   that have collaboration features, how good are they?

01:20:38   And I go through them all

01:20:39   and I always come back to Google Docs.

01:20:42   - It's one of those things where it's not making us sad.

01:20:45   So we're not actively looking for other things.

01:20:47   It does everything we want it to do.

01:20:49   So that's, I mean, that's step one, right?

01:20:52   Is you never, you know, I have not heard a thing

01:20:55   that's like, oh, but you have to use pages

01:20:57   because not only does it do everything that you do,

01:20:59   but it does this thing that you really wanna do, right?

01:21:01   Like that's, what are your motivations

01:21:03   for leaving anything?

01:21:04   One is it's frustrating to you,

01:21:06   or two is something else comes along

01:21:08   with does something that's great that improves your process.

01:21:12   That hasn't happened with Google Docs.

01:21:13   Just hasn't, Google Docs work great.

01:21:16   And I've never gotten something where it's like,

01:21:19   oh, but if you use pages, then you get to do this thing

01:21:22   and it would change your life.

01:21:24   And so it's worth changing all of your habits.

01:21:26   So we will use pages for our show notes

01:21:29   for a forthcoming episode

01:21:31   as part of a upgrade plus challenge

01:21:34   that we are doing from time to time.

01:21:36   That's gonna happen.

01:21:37   And it will probably result in us either saying,

01:21:40   oh, it's just as good, good job, Apple,

01:21:44   and then staying with Google Docs.

01:21:45   Or more likely I would say, us saying,

01:21:48   oh, see, it's really still not there.

01:21:50   And well, I'm looking forward to finding that out

01:21:53   because yes, it is worth checking back in

01:21:55   with this stuff over time.

01:21:56   But like- - It's like,

01:21:57   look at our experience with Freeform.

01:21:59   - Exactly.

01:22:00   - That was a disaster, right?

01:22:02   It was really bad for us.

01:22:05   Things were getting deleted.

01:22:06   So this was a challenge we did a few weeks ago,

01:22:10   a month or two ago, when Freeform came out.

01:22:13   And one of the biggest issues we had was,

01:22:15   Jason came to the episode

01:22:16   and thought I deleted a bunch of his notes.

01:22:18   But I hadn't. - Right,

01:22:19   because they didn't show up on my Mac.

01:22:21   - No.

01:22:22   - Even though they were still there

01:22:23   and were visible on my iPhone.

01:22:24   Now they fixed that feature in a bug fix.

01:22:28   - That was a brand new app built around collaboration,

01:22:30   not an existing app where they added collaboration features

01:22:32   to it, which is what happened.

01:22:33   - And it failed our collaboration test.

01:22:35   So we will try it.

01:22:36   But I think it's worth thinking a bigger picture

01:22:39   about like, why does anybody leave anything?

01:22:42   And I think there are only those two reasons, right?

01:22:44   Either it is causing you pain

01:22:46   or the grass seems greener on the other side.

01:22:49   And it isn't always,

01:22:50   but it seems greener on the other side.

01:22:52   And then I guess the additional thing I would say is,

01:22:56   there's a cost to move in terms of learning something new.

01:22:59   And the cost to move has to be paid by the benefit of going.

01:23:04   Otherwise you don't go.

01:23:06   And Google docs, the fact is Google docs is really good.

01:23:10   And if Google did something really gross

01:23:12   and started or said like Google docs is now,

01:23:14   you know, you got to pay an annual fee for Google docs.

01:23:17   It's like, we probably pay it.

01:23:19   But it might be worse saying, well, pages we already get,

01:23:22   maybe let's look at pages.

01:23:24   There could be something like that,

01:23:25   but it's very hard to imagine that actually happening.

01:23:27   I think that's why we'll probably just stick

01:23:30   with Google docs or if like I use Safari,

01:23:32   if Google docs suddenly like got really broken

01:23:34   with Safari or something,

01:23:36   I'd say actually I will throw in one pain point though,

01:23:39   which is Google docs isn't very good on the iPad.

01:23:41   And I still use my iPad a lot.

01:23:43   It's okay, but it's not very good.

01:23:46   And Google sheets is terrible on the iPad even now.

01:23:49   It's better than it was, but it's still not great.

01:23:52   So like, if we were very,

01:23:54   it survived us both being very iPad oriented.

01:23:57   And even now, you know, I'm still sort of iPad oriented.

01:24:00   That would be one of those cases where like,

01:24:03   if I was doing a lot of collaboration,

01:24:05   especially in Google sheets,

01:24:06   I would be more interested in using numbers for that.

01:24:11   But again, the people I collaborate with for that,

01:24:18   they don't all have Macs.

01:24:20   So I can't, right?

01:24:22   'Cause that's the other part of it is you also have

01:24:24   to be collaborating with somebody.

01:24:25   Mike and I can do it,

01:24:27   but like the Apple apps aren't cross platform either.

01:24:30   I know there's a web version and all that.

01:24:33   - You can have them use it on the web,

01:24:34   but people aren't gonna wanna do that.

01:24:36   'Cause they're just,

01:24:37   if you're gonna make somebody use the web,

01:24:39   then they're gonna wanna use Google docs.

01:24:42   - So we'll watch it.

01:24:43   I also, I don't like pages.

01:24:45   - All right, that's a good reason.

01:24:47   - Yeah.

01:24:47   - We'll try pages and notes probably.

01:24:50   - Right, we will probably try both of them.

01:24:53   Even though I don't think notes is gonna be able to give me,

01:24:55   well, no, notes will not give me all the formatting options

01:24:58   that I'm gonna want, web pages would.

01:25:00   - Right.

01:25:02   - If you would like to send in feedback,

01:25:03   follow up or questions for this show,

01:25:05   like Ask Upgrade, go to upgradefeedback.com

01:25:09   and you can send those in for us to answer

01:25:10   in a future episode.

01:25:12   If you wanna find Jason until next time,

01:25:14   go to sixcolors.com and hear his shows

01:25:17   over on the incomparable.com and here on Relay FM.

01:25:19   You can listen to my podcast here on Relay FM as well

01:25:22   and check out my work at cortexbrand.com.

01:25:25   You can find us on Mastodon.

01:25:27   Jason is @jasonel on zeppelin.flights

01:25:29   and you can find me as @imike on mike.social.

01:25:33   You can also follow the show as @upgrade on relayfm.social.

01:25:37   You can watch video clips of this show on TikTok

01:25:40   and Instagram, we are @upgraderelay on both.

01:25:44   If you use TikTok, I recommend, even if you don't,

01:25:48   just going to the TikTok page,

01:25:50   I'll put a link in the show notes

01:25:52   so you can go and see.

01:25:53   Jeremy, our official upgrade video consultant,

01:25:58   so we provide him with clips.

01:26:02   Jeremy's also been making some TikTok focused memes

01:26:06   of the two of us which are absurd to me and very funny.

01:26:10   So they might be worth just going to look at anyway.

01:26:13   You can view these things about needing a TikTok account.

01:26:17   There's some weird stuff in there.

01:26:20   It's stuff that I feel like I see in other places.

01:26:23   I don't know, maybe Jason,

01:26:25   we could bring some of those TikTok memes

01:26:27   to the Instagram account as well.

01:26:29   I guess you could down,

01:26:30   the videos could be shared back from Jeremy to us.

01:26:33   I don't know, but there's funny stuff.

01:26:35   There's some funny stuff on there.

01:26:36   You can go check it out.

01:26:37   Thank you to our members who support us of Upgrade Plus.

01:26:40   Thank you to Fitbud and Squarespace

01:26:42   for sponsoring this week's show.

01:26:44   But most of all, thank you for listening

01:26:46   and we'll be back next time.

01:26:48   Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:26:50   - Goodbye, Mike.

01:26:51   (upbeat music)

01:26:54   (upbeat music)

01:26:56   (upbeat music)