00:00:08 ◼ ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 460. Today's show is brought to you by ZocDoc and Ladder.
00:00:16 ◼ ► My name is Mike Hurley and I'm joined by the man from Six Colors, Mr. Jason Snow. Hi, Jason.
00:00:21 ◼ ► Hi, Mike. You made me sound like a secret agent or something. Yes, the man from Six Colors is here.
00:00:27 ◼ ► He knows, here's the real secret. License to color. Jason knows the seventh color as well,
00:00:33 ◼ ► but he just won't tell you what it is. It's ultraviolet. I have a Snail Talk question for
00:00:45 ◼ ► do you eat it cold or do you reheat the pizza?" With the pizza, we're in a little run here, Mike,
00:00:51 ◼ ► these pizza questions. I have some pizza follow-up actually before you get to the Snail Talk.
00:00:56 ◼ ► Okay. Federico was happy with the Anduja. He said he'll forgive me for hot honey because he's a fan
00:01:02 ◼ ► of Anduja. Oh, good. So, you know, if you're wondering how the Italians are feeling about
00:01:07 ◼ ► our pizza conversations, there's another piece of update for you. Okay, sounds good. I didn't even
00:01:15 ◼ ► know that. I thought you made a mistake and we're describing Andouille sausage. I know. Yeah,
00:01:21 ◼ ► I'll have to have it sometime when I see it on the menu. I think you'd like it. The answer to
00:01:26 ◼ ► Zach's question is yes. I do sometimes eat it cold. I do sometimes reheat it. The question
00:01:35 ◼ ► becomes sort of like, do I want to go to the trouble of reheating it or not? I am, and this
00:01:41 ◼ ► is going to open us up for so much other follow-up, but I am deeply against toaster ovens. Okay.
00:01:51 ◼ ► Shots fired. I like slot toasters. Me too. I like ovens. That's what I like. I have a microwave.
00:01:58 ◼ ► Microwaves are not great for reheating pizza. I have a pizza stone because I cook, especially in
00:02:04 ◼ ► the winter when I don't have my outdoor pizza oven that I cook on. I have a pizza stone, and it's
00:02:11 ◼ ► really easy to just put cold pizza on the pizza stone and put it on, or on a sheet of tinfoil,
00:02:18 ◼ ► and put it on 350. And that's my tip, by the way, is you put, for Fahrenheit people, 350 degrees,
00:02:24 ◼ ► you put the pizza in, you wait until your oven says, "I've reached 350 degrees," and then you
00:02:30 ◼ ► just take the pizza out. You eat it. But it does take a little while because unlike, I'm going to
00:02:34 ◼ ► admit here, unlike the toaster oven, it takes a little while to heat up the whole oven. So
00:02:45 ◼ ► the toaster ovens are superior for. I do not reheat pizza enough to buy a toaster oven and have a big
00:02:57 ◼ ► waste of space for me. Sorry. No, thanks. Prefer the slot toaster. But sometimes I'm impatient or
00:03:05 ◼ ► lazy and I don't want to. And you know what? Pizza is great cold too. It's just different.
00:03:10 ◼ ► So sometimes I reheat it and sometimes I don't. That's just how it is, Zach. Sometimes you feel
00:03:14 ◼ ► like it. Sometimes you don't. I agree with you because so much work when I have pizza from
00:03:21 ◼ ► yesterday and I might just want to just take a munch. I don't want to reheat it. It's good cold.
00:03:25 ◼ ► It's fine. You just do the whole thing. You just do it. It's easy peasy. A little real-time follow-up
00:03:31 ◼ ► from our friend James Thompson in the Really AFM Members Discord saying microwave old pizza is just
00:03:38 ◼ ► fine. I think fine is emphasized there. So it's fine. And he's right. I've done it. I don't prefer
00:03:46 ◼ ► it. But is there an interim state between eating it cold and waiting all the time it takes to heat
00:03:52 ◼ ► it up? In which you might microwave it just out of desperation? Yes, there is. But I don't recommend
00:03:59 ◼ ► it because it's all floppy and not that great. But again, pizza is good in all its forms. For all I
00:04:05 ◼ ► know, you could crunch on some frozen pizza and it'd be good. Why wouldn't it be? We have entered
00:04:11 ◼ ► into a completely new realm of follow-up in that I've been getting just so much follow-up about
00:04:19 ◼ ► pizza to the upgrade feedback, which is fine. We're not going to go over it all, but I appreciate
00:04:25 ◼ ► the people letting me know. Multiple people, Jason, tell me that they've gone to the Utah place
00:04:30 ◼ ► that you spoke about and had the pizza and liked it. I appreciate it. If this is where people want
00:04:35 ◼ ► to send their pizza information to, they can. You know what you get with us? You don't get any
00:04:39 ◼ ► judgment. There's no judgment here. I was going to joke and say we ought to start getting pizza
00:04:44 ◼ ► related sponsors, but that already happened. We've already got one. We've got the best one already.
00:04:49 ◼ ► Don't need to do that. Not today though. If you would like to send in a Snail Talk question of
00:04:54 ◼ ► your own, just go to upgradefeedback.com, tick the box that says Snail Talk and send one in. You may
00:05:00 ◼ ► help us start a future episode of the show. Next week is the draft. I'll talk about that in a
00:05:05 ◼ ► little bit. If you have any draft related Snail Talk questions, you might want to send one in.
00:05:09 ◼ ► Maybe we'll do one. Maybe we won't. Maybe we'll keep you guessing. A little bit of a follow-up
00:05:14 ◼ ► for you, Mike. It's not a box you tick. It's a pop-up and you have to select the pop-up.
00:05:20 ◼ ► Yeah, you know why? On my side on the back, it is a box that I tick to see those. So yes,
00:05:25 ◼ ► you are correct. It is a, what do they call those? Like a something. A pop-up. Drop down, pop up.
00:05:40 ◼ ► but don't look for a box to tick because the only box to tick is the one that says keep me anonymous.
00:05:46 ◼ ► Don't do that unless you need to be anonymous because otherwise I have to call you a nun.
00:05:50 ◼ ► Do you want to be called a nun or do you want your real name? You let me know. You'd be a part
00:05:54 ◼ ► of Mike's secret pizza. Tick line. Tip informers. Yeah. We had some follow-up sent in to the form.
00:06:02 ◼ ► Non-pizza related. Send in information. Yes. About past key sharing. So there was a couple
00:06:09 ◼ ► of things here. Adam said, because we were talking about past key sharing in Upgrade Plus.
00:06:13 ◼ ► Last time I was expressing some concern about how would you share past keys between individuals. Like
00:06:20 ◼ ► if you have like a shared login. Adam wrote in and said an account only has a single password,
00:06:25 ◼ ► but can have multiple past keys associated to it. So you don't need to share past keys.
00:06:30 ◼ ► Instead you register multiple past keys on a single account. The problem is signing the
00:06:34 ◼ ► other person in remotely so they can add their past key. Signing in someone remotely is kind
00:06:39 ◼ ► of like phishing, which is what past keys are set up to prevent. So currently you would have to be
00:06:43 ◼ ► physically together to set it up. So that's fine. Makes sense. I guess I'm intrigued about what one
00:06:49 ◼ ► password are going to do when it comes to that. I think that maybe their implementation might be
00:06:52 ◼ ► different. Peter writes in and says one passwords past key support will soon be released and then
00:06:57 ◼ ► past keys could be shared in a multi-person vault or similar in much the same way that existing
00:07:03 ◼ ► passwords can be shared. And I took a look at one passwords website. They have like a bunch of
00:07:08 ◼ ► information about past keys, which you would understand because like they're trying to be very,
00:07:13 ◼ ► very past key focused. So they still have a business, I suppose. Uh, but I actually think
00:07:20 ◼ ► that there is a lot of benefits still to having something like one password for me, I think when
00:07:26 ◼ ► even it comes to past keys, because one of the things that concerns me about changing from
00:07:32 ◼ ► passwords to past keys is like, will I still have this like central place where I can manage them
00:07:38 ◼ ► all? You know what I mean? Right? Like what I like about one password is I have all of my passwords
00:07:43 ◼ ► in one password and what I wasn't sure about when it came to past keys is like, do they just exist
00:07:49 ◼ ► in the iOS passwords app? Because I don't want that to be the case for me. Um, but one password
00:07:56 ◼ ► I've put together all this stuff and it looks very easy to save your past keys into there. And then
00:08:01 ◼ ► it also seems like you can share them from there as well. So that's coming on June 6th. Like there
00:08:06 ◼ ► is, is one passwords, um, support for past keys. But I think right now there just isn't a lot of
00:08:14 ◼ ► past keys that you can create, but this would make me feel more comfortable personally to move some
00:08:19 ◼ ► of my passwords over if I could also still just have them in one password, which is where I like
00:08:23 ◼ ► my passwords. Great. You use one password, right? Do you feel any particular way about having your
00:08:31 ◼ ► past keys in there? Like would that make you more likely to swap over to a past key login if you
00:08:36 ◼ ► could put it in there? Right now I'm happy to use Apple system because they're all just for me, but
00:08:42 ◼ ► I, um, I would definitely like to have the ability to share those with Lauren and potentially other
00:08:50 ◼ ► members of my family. Um, if, if you picture a world where everything's a past key, then I need
00:08:58 ◼ ► a way to share those past keys and you know, this would be a, uh, our existing workflow to use that.
00:09:03 ◼ ► So that would be, that would be nice. And we all, you know, we use one password to share all sorts
00:09:06 ◼ ► of other stuff too, you know, frequent flyer, mile numbers and all sorts of stuff like that.
00:09:25 ◼ ► multi view for the TV sports stuff on Apple TV 4k. Can you tell me what the quad box experience
00:09:33 ◼ ► was like? Um, I think it's really good. It's different from my experience with the Fubo TV
00:09:40 ◼ ► quad box that I use for my, um, over the top. Uh, I've got, yes, it's compared to quad box.
00:09:45 ◼ ► It's like absolute gibberish. It's a Fubo TV quad box. Mike, welcome to comparative quad box.
00:09:53 ◼ ► I'm, I'm your professor, Jason, Jason, Jason, Jason. Oh, that's good. That's good. It's very
00:10:01 ◼ ► refined. So the way you work, the way it works is there's an additional square. That's the latest
00:10:05 ◼ ► version of TV OS. So in addition to when you, when you bring up the kind of, uh, the player UI,
00:10:10 ◼ ► there's like the picture in picture button and there's a, uh, uh, audio streams button and a
00:10:15 ◼ ► subtitles button. And then there's now a, uh, a quad box button. That's a little four square
00:10:21 ◼ ► kind of thing. And if you hit that, what happens is the, the video stream you're watching pulls back
00:10:27 ◼ ► and up from the bottom of the screen comes a lit a list of, and this is all in the TV app only right
00:10:32 ◼ ► now. Um, it's a list of other available live content, um, that's playable in the TV app.
00:10:40 ◼ ► So if you click on another, so, uh, if you're watching MLS, another MLS game or a baseball game
00:10:54 ◼ ► those little items are down at the bottom of the screen with little pluses, and then you click one
00:10:58 ◼ ► and it adds it to the playing area at the top of the screen. And it plus turns into, I think,
00:11:03 ◼ ► a check and your, the one you're already watching is also down there and it's already checked,
00:11:07 ◼ ► right? So the idea is down below there is sort of like, what is in the quad box for, you know,
00:11:13 ◼ ► again, two, two by two, uh, you know, it could be two or it could be three, it could be four.
00:11:18 ◼ ► Um, you swipe up and the stuff on the bottom goes away to bring it back. You swipe back down to
00:11:24 ◼ ► bring up the multi-view kind of control. Um, you can choose, there's some different layouts.
00:11:29 ◼ ► There's kind of like a big and small, um, there's a, uh, four, you know, in, in the square, the
00:11:35 ◼ ► classic quad boxes, I would call it, but there's also one where there's one on the left and then
00:11:39 ◼ ► three in a stack on the right that are small. Depends on your preference really to, to how you
00:11:45 ◼ ► want to watch this. And then in terms of how you use it, you can very much like Fubo, um, if you
00:11:50 ◼ ► swipe around, it'll change where the audio input is coming from. So you can listen to audio from
00:11:54 ◼ ► any of them. Um, unlike Fubo, um, so Fubo, when you're in that multi-up view, uh, where there's
00:12:03 ◼ ► like a big one, a little one, I believe you can click on one and it makes it the big one,
00:12:07 ◼ ► click on a small one and makes it the big one. Apple doesn't work like that. And it actually,
00:12:11 ◼ ► I think is maybe a smarter move. So with Apple, you do exactly what you might expect, which is
00:12:15 ◼ ► that if there's a little one that you want to make the big one, you tap and hold essentially like,
00:12:21 ◼ ► so that it wiggles. I don't think it actually wiggles, but it's that same gesture. And then
00:12:25 ◼ ► you swipe it over and it just becomes the big one instead of the small one. You can rearrange
00:12:29 ◼ ► the windows that way. And if any of them are ones that you want to see at full screen, you,
00:12:34 ◼ ► you click and it zooms in full screen. So you can very quickly, once you learn the gestures,
00:12:39 ◼ ► have like your four up of four different soccer games and swipe around the audio and then tap
00:12:44 ◼ ► and zoom into one where it's very exciting and then hit back and it goes back. The one thing I
00:12:49 ◼ ► also noticed that's different, and I don't know what Fubo is doing in the background, but Apple
00:12:54 ◼ ► is not maintaining the streams when you're not viewing them. So when you zoom into one,
00:13:05 ◼ ► which makes sense, right? But what it means is that when you zoom back out, the other three
00:13:10 ◼ ► streams are stills and then they pick up and they start to play. It's a little less elegant, but
00:13:16 ◼ ► if Fubo, if I'm watching two things at once and I'm zoomed into one of them, is it streaming the
00:13:21 ◼ ► other one in the background? And it probably shouldn't be, but I think maybe it is. So anyway,
00:13:26 ◼ ► yeah, you can watch multiple things on it. And I think if you've got Apple TV channels,
00:13:32 ◼ ► and so you're subscribing to other services that have sports within the TV app, I think you can
00:13:39 ◼ ► use multi-view for that too. But what's missing, and who knows, maybe we'll see it at WWDC. We
00:13:46 ◼ ► should put it on the draft list, is it would be really nice if this feature worked across apps
00:13:51 ◼ ► so that you could have multiple views of live sporting events at once across different apps,
00:13:58 ◼ ► because a lot of sporting events are in different apps. Maybe we'll get there, but it's a very nice
00:14:03 ◼ ► implementation for the very limited kind of content, live sports content that's in Apple's
00:14:13 ◼ ► it sounded like you were kind of doing incantations with the TV remote. Do you think this is
00:14:19 ◼ ► complicated? I know you said you got your, like, once you get to know it, it's fine, but is it
00:14:25 ◼ ► complicated to learn this stuff? - I think it's pretty intuitive, honestly, because there are not
00:14:30 ◼ ► that many things you can do with the Apple TV remote. The one thing that is not entirely
00:14:34 ◼ ► intuitive is if you want to pick up and move something. I'd say that's the least necessary
00:14:40 ◼ ► of all the gestures. And if you use an Apple TV remote, I mean, I didn't know it did that.
00:14:47 ◼ ► I just said, "Well, let's try it." And that's what it did. I was like, "Okay." I intuited that that's
00:14:53 ◼ ► probably how it worked, and it's totally how it works. So I'm going to give that a thumbs up too.
00:15:01 ◼ ► the Quad box," and you go add, add, add, and now you've got four, and you're swiping around to
00:15:06 ◼ ► change the audio and clicking into whichever one is selected, and it zooms in, and you press the
00:15:11 ◼ ► back button, it zooms back out. I think it's pretty straightforward. It's a, I guess, sort
00:15:16 ◼ ► of a power user feature, but if Apple's going to get into sports, I mean, this is a sports viewing
00:15:20 ◼ ► feature, and it's a great sports viewing feature. So I'm glad they built it. I feel bad if they built
00:15:28 ◼ ► it for NFL Sunday Ticket and then they didn't get that contract, but I think it's great for
00:15:34 ◼ ► their sporting ambitions going forward. I also heard, I got some feedback that like in certain
00:15:39 ◼ ► other countries like yours, there are not a lot of simultaneous sporting events. Like for example,
00:15:43 ◼ ► they only show, you know, they don't really show multiple Premier League matches up against each
00:15:48 ◼ ► other. I had to break it to that person and that in the U.S. they do. We get to see all of them,
00:15:53 ◼ ► which doesn't happen in the UK apparently, which is sad. We have better English soccer than you,
00:16:03 ◼ ► you know, and you're not a sports fan, like, okay, I get it. But trust me, I have on weekends in the
00:16:12 ◼ ► fall, especially when like college football is going on, or even on a Sunday with pro football,
00:16:17 ◼ ► I have the quad box going on my TV and I love it. So I'm glad Apple has built a better quad box.
00:16:26 ◼ ► Also, all the corners are little rounded corners, which is very Apple. It's totally unnecessary,
00:16:46 ◼ ► I still don't understand. I, I suggest this a long time ago. Mime mail would have been so much
00:16:54 ◼ ► better in my opinion. I don't know why stream is in the title. I like the Apple lot and use it on
00:17:00 ◼ ► my Mac. Um, but I find the naming to be curious, but they went with what they went with.
00:17:06 ◼ ► It's been two years. So I've been using this. It's been in beta. They've been building it.
00:17:09 ◼ ► Mime stream is a Gmail client for macOS. So I used to use Mailplane, which was basically
00:17:16 ◼ ► a Mac wrapper of the Gmail web interface, which put it in its own app and gave it the right
00:17:22 ◼ ► shortcuts. And let me do sorts of drag and drop and other stuff that integration with the,
00:17:26 ◼ ► with macOS made better than just doing it in a web browser window. But that got discontinued due to
00:17:33 ◼ ► changes, security changes with Google and Gmail. But into the breach steps, Mime stream, which is
00:17:39 ◼ ► written by, it's a team, but the lead guy, uh, used to work at Apple on Notes and Mail. And it feels
00:17:46 ◼ ► very, very familiar, I think as a Mac interface, but also like mail a little bit, but it's really
00:17:51 ◼ ► good. And it is Gmail native because it's Gmail focused. So Gmail is not, does not behave like
00:17:57 ◼ ► IMAP, which is the protocol that people use to check their email. Mostly these days. Um,
00:18:03 ◼ ► it's different. It's a little bit weird. And Mime stream is built to use the metaphor that
00:18:08 ◼ ► Google is using for Gmail rather than sort of mapping it to IMAP. And it's got a bunch of stuff
00:18:15 ◼ ► like you can, you can create filters right in the app. The search is really fast because it's using
00:18:20 ◼ ► the Google Gmail search. It's not doing what mail does, which is, you know, at least a lot of cases,
00:18:32 ◼ ► it can be unreliable. Even when it uses the server, I found that it can be pretty unreliable and slow.
00:18:36 ◼ ► A lot of great things to say about it. It's a really good app. It's a subscription app. So
00:18:43 ◼ ► there's a discount for year one, at least right now. But you know, you do have to pay annually
00:18:51 ◼ ► this is my email client of choice on the Mac. Their number one priority, according to Neil,
00:18:57 ◼ ► Neil Mime stream is, is iOS. So, you know, they, they're not making any commitments to win,
00:19:04 ◼ ► but their next priority is to ship it. People are asking like, can you support other mail formats
00:19:09 ◼ ► and can you bring it to iOS? And what, what he told me is that iOS is their number one priority
00:19:15 ◼ ► so that you can use the same app on your Mac and on your iOS devices. And then they will,
00:19:20 ◼ ► they obviously are also interested in supporting IMAP. It's a bigger challenge because of what I
00:19:26 ◼ ► said, because IMAP is not Gmail. And so they're going to have to do the reverse of what all those
00:19:32 ◼ ► clients that use IMAP on Gmail and have to figure out how to, how to, you know, deal with the fact
00:19:38 ◼ ► that it's not really IMAP, it's kind of Gmail. Mime stream is going to have to do the reverse,
00:19:41 ◼ ► but they built a really nice, reliable, fast client that I vastly prefer to Apple mail.
00:19:48 ◼ ► And you do too, I think. And so, uh, and you have a Macintosh, this is the app you should be using.
00:19:55 ◼ ► Like I had a great question from a reader who said, why would I use this instead of, um,
00:20:03 ◼ ► that's the answer is cause this is a full on written in Swift Mac app that gives you Gmail.
00:20:09 ◼ ► It is essentially what if Google cared so much about the Mac that it wrote its own fully native
00:20:18 ◼ ► custom Gmail client for the Mac as an app, which of course that's not how Google works. They only
00:20:25 ◼ ► have apps on mobile devices because it was more expedient than, than telling people to go to their
00:20:30 ◼ ► website. They certainly don't care about that on the Mac, but Mime stream does and, uh, it's good.
00:20:36 ◼ ► And so now you can, you can buy it and use it. And, uh, and I do recommend it, you know,
00:20:42 ◼ ► you know who you are, if you're somebody who wants a really good email client, uh, for the Mac
00:20:46 ◼ ► and eventually for iOS. If you ask the question of like, well, when they use the website, then like,
00:20:50 ◼ ► this app probably isn't for you. And that's totally fine. Right? Like, I feel like, you know,
00:20:53 ◼ ► already, especially if it's a subscription app, you know, you're going to be like, well,
00:20:58 ◼ ► really this should be something, you know, you already want because you're frustrated with
00:21:02 ◼ ► your email experience because either Apple mail doesn't have all the features you want,
00:21:05 ◼ ► or you don't want to just have all of your email done in a web browser tab. Right. And I think
00:21:11 ◼ ► that's a very good market of people. I would be as much as I want them to do it. I'd be really
00:21:16 ◼ ► surprised if they ever break out of Gmail with this app because they have built this app around
00:21:28 ◼ ► reverse that for IMAP. Right? So like the idea of the categorization that it does automatically,
00:21:38 ◼ ► all of that stuff. You have to build it yourself. And that is big and complicated. I hope they do do
00:21:45 ◼ ► it because that would, to me suggest that the app has been successful enough that they're willing to
00:21:49 ◼ ► put the time in, but we'll see. Right. Although I would, I would actually say that maybe the
00:21:55 ◼ ► indication that they have to start working on IMAP is an indication that they need more users.
00:21:59 ◼ ► Right. That's the other way to look at it is if they're incredibly successful with Gmail, I would
00:22:05 ◼ ► feel like it lessens the pressure a little bit, but you're right. It'll always be there. There
00:22:08 ◼ ► are always people who are like, I have three Gmail accounts and an IMAP account, please help me. And
00:22:14 ◼ ► they don't, they can't serve them until they do that. I will also say one of the other really
00:22:18 ◼ ► nice things about MimeStream versus like the web interface is how it handles multiple Gmail
00:22:23 ◼ ► accounts because it's easy to do. You can merge them together into one inbox. You can keep them
00:22:28 ◼ ► separate and they have this new concept of roles basically. So you can have like, if you've got
00:22:33 ◼ ► like three Gmail accounts for business and one for personal, you don't have to switch necessarily
00:22:38 ◼ ► among four. You can create a business set and a personal set, and you can switch between those
00:22:44 ◼ ► two and the business set will accumulate all your business emails and they can still be tagged and
00:22:48 ◼ ► colored of like which one they're from, but it's separate from your personal. You can do that if
00:22:53 ◼ ► you want. It supports focus filters. So you can even do it where when you're in focus mode,
00:22:58 ◼ ► you will pop, you know, and you're like, you're in personal mode. MimeStream will only show your
00:23:03 ◼ ► personal mail. I mean, you set it up however you want, but all of that stuff is in there.
00:23:07 ◼ ► And these are all reasons why, I mean, you're going to count on the fact that MimeStream is
00:23:12 ◼ ► going to support a lot of core macOS features because the whole purpose of the app is to provide
00:23:17 ◼ ► a macOS app experience on Gmail. So they gotta, I mean, that's the secret sauce there. That's the
00:23:23 ◼ ► magic is what can we do that a webpage can't do? That's their entire mission with MimeStream,
00:23:29 ◼ ► but I think it's very good. I respect their focus because like there are two very core questions
00:23:35 ◼ ► that they have decided not to address for version 1.0, right? Like you mentioned is anything other
00:23:40 ◼ ► than Gmail, but especially iOS. We're like, nope, it's what we're doing. I applaud that focus and
00:23:44 ◼ ► like, I really hope it works out for them because this is a great application. Yep. I agree. And
00:23:50 ◼ ► Apple has started to share some details about the WWDC schedule for developers. And there were a
00:23:57 ◼ ► couple of intriguing, um, placeholders. So, well, the things that they have, like, you know, that
00:24:04 ◼ ► developers know about is they can attend a set of tours inside Apple Park. They have some exhibits
00:24:09 ◼ ► and stuff like that, which is really cool. Developers can register for them, but there is a
00:24:13 ◼ ► special evening activity on Monday, which feels probably like a bash, right? Like, I don't know,
00:24:21 ◼ ► unless it's like, uh, Apple design awards. That's already on there too. The design awards is already
00:24:27 ◼ ► on the schedule. So that Monday is like keynote state of the union design awards, and then a
00:24:34 ◼ ► special evening activity. Uh, and then on Tuesday, there are three, two and a half hour sessions that
00:24:42 ◼ ► the developer center, a morning, afternoon, evening. And you have to register for one of these.
00:24:48 ◼ ► This is probably gonna be for trying out the headset, I reckon? They're at the developer center.
00:24:59 ◼ ► It's not a bad guess, right? Right. Not necessarily that, but the idea that you have groups,
00:25:05 ◼ ► especially keeping in mind that the developers are not a very large contingent, right? No. It's not
00:25:10 ◼ ► 5,000 developers. It's a small number of developers. So what if they let you sign up for slots on
00:25:16 ◼ ► Tuesday where you are in a relatively small group and they bring them in and there's a, you know,
00:25:21 ◼ ► there's a demonstration and then people are there to try on the headsets one at a time or in groups,
00:25:28 ◼ ► right? Where it's like four at a time and the rest of them do something else and you kind of move
00:25:32 ◼ ► them through. If I were at Apple, that's what I would do, right? You got to have time for your
00:25:36 ◼ ► guest developers to see the headset. And how do you do that? Because it's a one-to-one experience
00:25:41 ◼ ► and you've got to come up with a program that lets you kind of like filter them through.
00:25:46 ◼ ► And it's almost like a Disneyland ride where you need like the waiting time and then the
00:25:56 ◼ ► what are they doing? Is they're doing something else and you got to kind of funnel them through.
00:25:59 ◼ ► It'd be interesting to see how they do it. And for the press, it's the same thing. It's like,
00:26:03 ◼ ► how are they going to do that with the press? It's a tough one. I reckon the developer thing
00:26:07 ◼ ► will probably follow something akin to the Mac Pro demonstration thing from what's that 2019.
00:26:13 ◼ ► When they have like a bunch of Mac, like a bunch of people using the Mac Pro showing you how,
00:26:19 ◼ ► like what it could do, right? Like they have that whole kind of like experience thing. But obviously
00:26:24 ◼ ► with, I'm assuming probably a hands-on part or maybe not. Like maybe it would just be like,
00:26:30 ◼ ► here are four Apple employees. They're all doing something and you can watch them do it. And you
00:26:34 ◼ ► can see it on a screen or whatever. We'll find out. But I think that's probably what that's going
00:26:39 ◼ ► to be on Tuesday is the entire day to allow a set of multiple hundreds of people try out or see
00:26:47 ◼ ► something more up close with the headset. Cause like, we spoke about this before, right? Like,
00:26:53 ◼ ► could this be something akin to your original Apple watch experience where like they would
00:26:58 ◼ ► show you it, but you couldn't do it because it was on a loop and that might be the case.
00:27:03 ◼ ► You can look around and stuff, maybe reach out and touch something and all that, but then it just
00:27:08 ◼ ► keeps going, right? A completely guided experience. Certainly if there's anything, it's going to be
00:27:12 ◼ ► something like that. Do you think that that Monday night event is a concert? Yeah. The reason that
00:27:17 ◼ ► I'm inclined to believe that it is, is not just for the developers, right? Think of this from an
00:27:22 ◼ ► Apple perspective. If they're launching WWDC, making all their announcements there, including
00:27:30 ◼ ► the headset, you could argue that that's like a really good opportunity to throw a party. And so
00:27:37 ◼ ► you throw a party for developers and media and VIPs and Apple employees. And they all come to the
00:27:46 ◼ ► inside of the ring. Yep. Maybe. Yep. That's where it's going to be. The rainbow stage. Yep. Special
00:27:52 ◼ ► evening activity. So from Matt Groomer's, Apple says that the special activity is one attendees
00:27:58 ◼ ► quote, "Won't want to miss with food and beverages provided." It's a party. Oh, I mean, come on. Yeah.
00:28:04 ◼ ► Maybe there's a band. Definitely there's a party. Yeah. So yeah. Great. Awesome. Probably not Spinal
00:28:13 ◼ ► Tap. Who knows? I always was picking Spinal Tap. Could be. Maybe this is going. I like Federico's,
00:28:18 ◼ ► I like Federico wondering about Boy Genius because they're in California. That would be,
00:28:23 ◼ ► that would be really awesome. I'd be there if I could. And maybe I will. I'm not saying like,
00:28:29 ◼ ► I can't. I'm saying I will be. I will be there if I'm invited. How about that? I will be there
00:28:33 ◼ ► if I'm invited. Yep. Can't wait. So this episode is our final regular episode before WWDC.
00:28:42 ◼ ► So next week will be the draft, which we are in preparation on trying to narrow down our picks.
00:28:50 ◼ ► And so we'll be making our draft picks. I will be putting my championship on the line for the year.
00:28:56 ◼ ► You're right side up pennant and my downward facing sad pennant. Yes. On the line. I'll be on
00:29:04 ◼ ► the line. So what obviously something of note is as we're recording this, which is the 22nd of May,
00:29:17 ◼ ► We will not be talking about these until at least after WWDC at this point. So just as a note,
00:29:26 ◼ ► like we just want, we're not going to talk about it on the draft. I doubt we're going to have time
00:29:30 ◼ ► to talk about it on the WWDC episode. So it's going to be later on, but I'm sure we'll talk
00:29:37 ◼ ► about that in my backyard. Maybe. Summer of fun. Summer of fun. It's coming. But yeah, so we're
00:29:44 ◼ ► also planning on, on revise, uh, reprising the outside podcast that we did last year. You can
00:29:51 ◼ ► listen to my birds. So we want to do again, cause we had such a good time, but that last time
00:29:57 ◼ ► it was the best part of WWDC for me last year. I hope that that won't be the case this year,
00:30:04 ◼ ► but who could tell? Uh, so we've got that going on. And so, uh, yeah, we won't be talking about
00:30:09 ◼ ► anything kind of final cut related until then, but hopefully we'll pick it up as part of the summer
00:30:14 ◼ ► of fun. This episode is brought to you by our friends at ZocDoc. It sucks when you have to go
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00:30:31 ◼ ► maybe rushed you along and maybe you've waited for hours in the waiting room. And then maybe instead
00:30:37 ◼ ► of then you feeling like you're being listened to intently because they're in a rush. You want to
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00:31:10 ◼ ► hate going to the doctor's office, sitting in the waiting room for 20 minutes. And we're already
00:31:16 ◼ ► like, I hate all of that stuff. I love being able to do these things over a video call, over a phone
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00:32:08 ◼ ► ZocDoc.com/upgradefm, ZocDoc.com/upgradefm. Our thanks to ZocDoc for their support of this show and
00:32:18 ◼ ► all of Relay FM. Saddle up, partner. It's time for a rumor roundup. Mike, I feel like the sun is low
00:32:27 ◼ ► in the sky and we might be done with some rumor roundups for a little while. Yes. But let's ride
00:32:34 ◼ ► one last time. The Wall Street Journal is repor- Come on. I like it. The Apple executives have banned
00:32:41 ◼ ► the use of chatgpt and other AI utilities from being used for work at the company. This includes
00:32:47 ◼ ► GitHub co-pilot for helping developers with their code issues. There is a concern at Apple that these
00:32:54 ◼ ► tools could be a threat to Apple's secrecy guidelines if people are querying them to aid in
00:32:58 ◼ ► their work. Yeah. Hey, chatgpt, here's my top secret Apple code. Can you help me with it?
00:33:05 ◼ ► You're sending your top secret Apple code to chatgpt. Don't do it. All right. I was thinking,
00:33:10 ◼ ► like, I have got a marketing press release. Can you just check it over for grammar? Right? Like,
00:33:13 ◼ ► these are things that people are doing more and more, right? It actually shows you that there is
00:33:18 ◼ ► going to be a serious market in the future for AI assistant technologies that you can run on a local
00:33:28 ◼ ► private instance, right? Where, you know, keep your secret stuff secret by paying us to install
00:33:36 ◼ ► your thing or whether you can do it yourself. But I think there will be companies that will come to
00:33:41 ◼ ► your place with this. Well, funnily enough, open AI is one of them. Like, open AI is working on this
00:33:48 ◼ ► for Morgan Stanley, like a locked down version of chatgpt. But yes, I think this is what Microsoft
00:33:58 ◼ ► is probably focusing on too a little bit more, right? Like, a lot of the stuff around Office is,
00:34:03 ◼ ► like, we are using your information. Because the problem with something like chatgpt is,
00:34:13 ◼ ► you can, there are certain things that you can do, certainly Apple does this, where it is end to end
00:34:19 ◼ ► encrypted. Where, like, you see it because you have got a key, you are logged in. But, like,
00:34:24 ◼ ► it is stored encrypted and that the service cannot see it. The problem with chatgpt is, it has got to
00:34:30 ◼ ► see it, right? It has got to see it. It has to decrypt it. It cannot have it. And if it is running
00:34:35 ◼ ► on somebody else's servers, it could be a leak. People could see what you are typing, what you are
00:34:41 ◼ ► pasting into those documents. So, for that reason, very privacy and secrecy oriented companies,
00:34:48 ◼ ► government agencies, are going to need, if it is truly the case that this AI stuff is going to have
00:34:57 ◼ ► value, productivity value, it has either got to run on device, which, you know, a lot of the stuff
00:35:04 ◼ ► will be able to run on device. Our devices are powerful enough. Or, at the very least, it needs
00:35:08 ◼ ► to be put in a system where it can be self-hosted so that you have some trust that it is not leaving
00:35:14 ◼ ► your company. >> Yep. Very important. On that same kind of topic area, TechCrunch have recognized
00:35:21 ◼ ► that Apple has been on the hunt for more AI talent. There are dozens of job postings available
00:35:36 ◼ ► AI job roles in that time period. >> We found the place where Apple is not slowing down hiring.
00:35:43 ◼ ► >> Yep. I was thinking that exact thing, right? They are not freezing in this area because they
00:35:56 ◼ ► behind or stressed out or they have lost people. Whatever it is, there is something going on there
00:36:02 ◼ ► where Apple definitely needs more. I think Apple, look, Apple clearly is spending a lot of effort on
00:36:10 ◼ ► machine learning and AI. Maybe not in the way that others are. But it is also possible that the AI
00:36:16 ◼ ► stuff has gone in directions that Apple either hasn't anticipated or that Apple doesn't have
00:36:21 ◼ ► the capability to do right now and they need to staff up even further. It is not like they are
00:36:25 ◼ ► doing nothing. I was laughing at a conversation about Apple being perceived as being, you know,
00:36:30 ◼ ► doing nothing and being behind when they have literally built machine learning AI special cores
00:36:36 ◼ ► into their processors for the last few years. They know. But they have also got some blind spots and
00:36:43 ◼ ► have missed some things. Not surprising. Are we surprised that Apple wants to hire more AI?
00:36:49 ◼ ► >> Because they have been doing a lot of stuff in machine learning. But they have been using machine
00:36:54 ◼ ► learning like a scalpel. Very specific things. >> Tim Cook even said it was woven. Like a loom
00:37:10 ◼ ► >> What they don't have is this mass consumer facing product. That is what they need to work on.
00:37:19 ◼ ► And then we take a shot left turn to go to Mark's power on newsletter where he notes that Apple will
00:37:25 ◼ ► soon be selling the Nike made Ted lasso through the Apple online store. >> There will be QR codes.
00:37:32 ◼ ► It must be they are tired of hearing this in the retail stores. There will be QR codes or something
00:37:37 ◼ ► in the retail store that will say if you would like your Ted lasso scan this code and go to the
00:37:42 ◼ ► online store. That is where you buy your Ted lasso merch. >> This will be the first time clothing has
00:37:46 ◼ ► been sold in the Apple store. >> You have to go to the Apple stores on Apple campuses in order to get
00:37:52 ◼ ► the Apple. I have a six colors Apple rainbow T-shirt. They don't sell those in the regular
00:37:56 ◼ ► retail stores. Only in the special locations. This is going to be a change for them. I think
00:38:02 ◼ ► it is great. I think they should do it. I honestly think they should put it in the retail stores too.
00:38:10 ◼ ► branded shirt is not as profitable as literally anything else in the Apple store. Fair enough.
00:38:15 ◼ ► Putting it in the online store makes sense. There is no problem with storage. They have the room for
00:38:20 ◼ ► it to show it off. I expect them to do more. This is one of those areas. Julie Alexander and I
00:38:25 ◼ ► talked about this on downstream the other week. Three or four weeks ago. Disney, I don't know if
00:38:33 ◼ ► you noticed it. I don't know if we mentioned it here. Disney added a store tab in the Mandalorian
00:38:40 ◼ ► where you could buy merch. They put it in the Disney+ app. Think about it. Of course Disney did.
00:38:48 ◼ ► This is the company that has you exit through the gift shop. Everything about Disney is about the
00:38:53 ◼ ► big picture experience. It is not like they come in, they watch the Mandalorian and they leave.
00:38:57 ◼ ► It is like no no no. They come in, they watch the Mandalorian and then they buy a baby Yoda.
00:39:01 ◼ ► That is how it works. Then they go to Disneyland and they see a Mandalorian walking around. This is
00:39:06 ◼ ► Disney. Apple is not quite Disney but Apple will leave no stone unturned when it comes to
00:39:14 ◼ ► revenue or at least that seems to be their approach. Why would you not merchandise your
00:39:19 ◼ ► entertainment product now that you have it? I would be surprised if it stops with Ted Lasso.
00:39:25 ◼ ► This is just the easy one. This is the easiest one. It is a good one to test. It is also two years
00:39:33 ◼ ► too late but it is good that it is here. It is literally going to be appearing as the show ends.
00:39:44 ◼ ► I think I have a view but I don't know if I have shared it on the show. My theory is that
00:39:49 ◼ ► season four will become a show called Roy Kent. I think it is going to be a Roy Kent spinoff and
00:39:57 ◼ ► Roy takes over the team and Ted goes back and maybe does some cameos every now and then.
00:40:02 ◼ ► But I think that is not a continuum. I have heard the theory that there are going to be
00:40:06 ◼ ► multiple shows and that Ted goes back to America could actually be another show or a continuation
00:40:14 ◼ ► of Ted Lasso. I think one of the undercurrents of Ted Lasso's production is that Jason Sudeikis
00:40:21 ◼ ► got a divorce and has kids that he doesn't see very often because they are in America and he is
00:40:26 ◼ ► in London for long periods of time shooting Ted Lasso and he doesn't want to keep doing that.
00:40:32 ◼ ► He is in charge. It is possible that he is essentially going to exit. It is also possible
00:40:40 ◼ ► that he is going to come back to the states but still get some of that sweet sweet Ted Lasso
00:40:46 ◼ ► money while also allowing his cast and crew who are UK based to stay and continue the franchise
00:40:55 ◼ ► there. We will have to see. We are proceeding under the assumption that Ted Lasso season 3 is
00:41:00 ◼ ► the end of the story. I feel very strongly that since they have not said anything about it since
00:41:06 ◼ ► then, I know there is a writer's strike now, but it feels to me like the end of season 3 of Ted
00:41:30 ◼ ► Right? Because Apple control Major League Soccer now. You know what, forget it. Have Jason Sudeikis
00:41:49 ◼ ► Brett Goldstein does. Roy Kent is a phenomenon. He has also got another Apple TV show with Bill
00:41:55 ◼ ► Lawrence. They are doing Shrinking. I wonder, especially if Jason Sudeikis either stepped away
00:42:00 ◼ ► or went off to do something with Ted Lasso in America, if that would mean that Brett Goldstein
00:42:04 ◼ ► and Bill Lawrence would pick up the reigns of a Roy Kent. We say Ted Lasso and Roy Kent, but these
00:42:13 ◼ ► are ensembles. There are like, what, 15 characters in Ted Lasso? I mean, it's enormous. That's part
00:42:19 ◼ ► of the problem of them trying to land this plane. The episodes are getting to be an hour long each
00:42:25 ◼ ► because they've got five different storylines and they need to service all of these characters.
00:42:28 ◼ ► Anyway, it cracked the Nielsen Streaming Top 10, which is a big deal. That's almost entirely
00:42:40 ◼ ► Netflix stuff. The only Disney stuff on there is Star Wars and Marvel. For Ted Lasso to be there,
00:42:46 ◼ ► Star Trek Picard was the first Paramount thing to ever crack it. It cracked it the last couple
00:42:51 ◼ ► of months. Ted Lasso was there. It is, by all measurements, awards and viewing figures,
00:42:58 ◼ ► Apple's biggest thing. I'm sure, as we've said before, Apple will back up the truck of money,
00:43:03 ◼ ► or perhaps already has backed up multiple trucks of money to various houses in order to continue
00:43:09 ◼ ► with something that's Ted Lasso related. But to pay for that, they're also going to sell Ted
00:43:13 ◼ ► Lasso shirts in the Apple store. So we're going to park the horses for a bit. We're going to come
00:43:22 ◼ ► back to- You don't park horses. Is that what you do? We're going to hitch them. We're going to tie
00:43:28 ◼ ► them up at the hitching post. I wouldn't be surprised if the word parking has some kind of
00:43:35 ◼ ► etymology in horses, but we can leave that for another time. Okay. Well, you're just opening us
00:43:40 ◼ ► up to a world of horse-related follow-up, and as somebody who was injured in a buggy accident as a
00:43:45 ◼ ► child- You don't want it. Who better than me to field those questions about horses? I grope
00:43:51 ◼ ► with horses. I don't know if that's a good idea. We're going to talk about accessibility features.
00:43:56 ◼ ► So in honor of Global Accessibility Awareness Day, Apple has once again, as they have for multiple
00:44:02 ◼ ► years now, previewed some accessibility focused features that will be coming in iOS 17. So they
00:44:09 ◼ ► break these out, give them their own time in the sun, which is a really great idea. There are a
00:44:14 ◼ ► whole selection of features, but Apple focuses on three main ones. The biggest one is something
00:44:20 ◼ ► called Assistive Access, which in a nutshell simplifies and can give you the options to
00:44:27 ◼ ► simplify the entire UI of iOS to aid those with cognitive disabilities. It is a fully customizable
00:44:35 ◼ ► experience. You can have your entire UI just be these huge buttons or big text labels or tables
00:44:42 ◼ ► that you can access from- like, you know, you got all your apps in just a table, there's no home
00:44:46 ◼ ► screen, huge high contrast iconography, and there's a whole set of tools available for a more tailored
00:44:54 ◼ ► experience. Like, so you can put things in grids and rows and stuff. This is like, this feels pretty
00:45:00 ◼ ► massive as like a thing to do. It's like, oh, how about we give you the opportunity to rewrite the
00:45:07 ◼ ► entire operating system? This seems super cool. Yeah. There's live speech, which will allow a
00:45:13 ◼ ► user to type what they want to say to somebody and have it spoken out loud from the phone, either in
00:45:21 ◼ ► person, so do it from the phone speaker, or if you're on a FaceTime call, you can type out what
00:45:25 ◼ ► you want to say and the person will hear it. You can also create a machine learning version of your
00:45:32 ◼ ► own voice using a system called Personal Voice. So you record yourself saying, or you speak to the
00:45:38 ◼ ► phone saying a bunch of things. And then I think it's like over many hours, the phone will go away
00:45:44 ◼ ► and create basically an AI version of your own voice, which you can then use for the live speech
00:45:51 ◼ ► function. This is mainly focused on those who are at risk of losing their voice. So this would give
00:45:57 ◼ ► them the ability to still be their own person when using these features. And also point and speak in
00:46:05 ◼ ► the magnifier app. So you can hold up your camera and using the camera and LIDAR, you can point your
00:46:11 ◼ ► camera at some buttons. The system will read and process the buttons and labels so you can point
00:46:16 ◼ ► with them with your finger and it will be like, that's the start button, that's the stop button.
00:46:20 ◼ ► Wild stuff again. They're just continuing to do some huge things of accessibility here,
00:46:31 ◼ ► and that was the one that blew me away as she said, you know, you're standing in front of a
00:46:35 ◼ ► vending machine and you point at the buttons and it says like, which one is Coke and which one is
00:46:38 ◼ ► Pepsi and which one is... And like, you don't think about it, but if you have vision issues,
00:46:54 ◼ ► - It's like voiceover but for the world, right? - Exactly. And the idea that, you know,
00:47:06 ◼ ► what the hell do you do, right? And the answer is, it's not a problem. Also, I had that thought,
00:47:10 ◼ ► which is, this is also the future of Apple augmented reality, is stuff like this. And I
00:47:22 ◼ ► heard from some people who were like, oh, well, this is interesting because you could put it in
00:47:26 ◼ ► the Apple headset and it's got cameras and it could do that. It's like, you could. And like,
00:47:30 ◼ ► in the long run, I think these features do go together with augmented reality and the fact that
00:47:34 ◼ ► you could wear this around. But there's probably, and I'm just spitballing here, something for down
00:47:40 ◼ ► the road for an Apple product, but like, as long as you can get a camera, which is a challenge
00:47:47 ◼ ► because right now, like AirPods don't have cameras, but as long as you can have a camera,
00:47:52 ◼ ► you should be able to do this now, right? Like if your AirPods had cameras or if you could put on
00:48:01 ◼ ► some glasses or just put a little teeny tiny camera on your glasses, this feature, I know
00:48:08 ◼ ► AirPods don't have the processing power right now to do something like this, but I'm just saying,
00:48:12 ◼ ► if you extrapolate this, you don't need a full on AR headset to make the entire world accessible.
00:48:19 ◼ ► - No, you could put your phone in a lanyard. - You could. I mean, this is what that Humain,
00:48:25 ◼ ► Humain has that demo, that startup where it's got like, we're not gonna tell, it's some weird stuff
00:48:31 ◼ ► going on there, but one idea is that you put your phone in, or this Humain thing, in a pocket,
00:48:35 ◼ ► a shirt pocket, and the camera's facing out, and it does it. But there are ways you could do it,
00:48:45 ◼ ► that alone is an incredible amount of augmentation of reality for people who need it via
00:48:52 ◼ ► accessibility, but arguably for everybody. But certainly imagine the boon that would be to
00:48:58 ◼ ► somebody with low vision if they could walk around basically as normal, not even holding up a phone
00:49:04 ◼ ► eventually, and being able to, through gestures, decode the entire world around them so that they
00:49:10 ◼ ► could get those inaccessible things to be accessible. It's awesome. This technology is amazing.
00:49:21 ◼ ► Shelley also has a podcast here on Relay FM called Parallel, where she dives into this in more
00:49:26 ◼ ► detail. So if you want more detail from somebody who actually needs and uses these tools, you can
00:49:30 ◼ ► go and check that out on Relay.fm/parallel. It's episode 82. But I love that they do this stuff,
00:49:38 ◼ ► obviously. I like that they give it this focus now, because if this was part of WWC, the demo
00:49:45 ◼ ► would still be really fascinating, but it would be part of the news for that day, right? That day,
00:49:53 ◼ ► everyone would have that as one of the many articles written. But by doing it this way,
00:50:05 ◼ ► focusing on it, like, how would this be useful? Why would you need this? And also, for us,
00:50:11 ◼ ► I see things like that, and I'm like, oh, who in my life could benefit from this in a way that I
00:50:18 ◼ ► might not otherwise think about it, because I'm focusing on 2,000 different things on WWC keynote
00:50:23 ◼ ► day. So super cool. Yeah, it's a good thing that they do it now. We talked about it all this time.
00:50:29 ◼ ► Would we have talked about it all this time if it was amid 800 other announcements? Well,
00:50:34 ◼ ► of course not. Even if we care about the subject, because there are so many other announcements. So
00:50:38 ◼ ► I like how they do it. It does require them to get a little shifty about, you know, first off,
00:50:43 ◼ ► they have to, they can't pull out anything that gives anything away, right? So it's big,
00:50:48 ◼ ► because these are new iOS features that they're announcing in advance of WWDC. They don't say
00:50:54 ◼ ► where they're coming. They don't put it in that frame, but that's what they are. And I know,
00:50:59 ◼ ► I was listening to your podcast with, well, you weren't on it last week, but connected talked
00:51:05 ◼ ► about this. It was my subversive element, John Voorhees, my fellow Jay, who was there with
00:51:12 ◼ ► Federico and Steven. And they were talking about this and they both suggested there's that part
00:51:17 ◼ ► where it's sort of like, oh, and it'll put this information about where you are in the Notes app.
00:51:27 ◼ ► the Notes app. That's the journaling app they haven't mentioned yet. And that's why. And there's
00:51:32 ◼ ► like a shortcut that they're like, there's this shortcut that does this. So it says, shortcuts
00:51:36 ◼ ► adds, remember this, which helps users with cognitive disabilities create a visual diary
00:51:42 ◼ ► in Notes for easy reference and reflection. It's like, you could do that now. Why is that?
00:51:46 ◼ ► And then you start to unravel and you're like, eh, they're probably hiding something there,
00:51:50 ◼ ► right? It's probably more complex. It probably involves that journaling app that we talked about,
00:51:58 ◼ ► this is, I appreciate that they do it because this is not a zero effort kind of thing for them
00:52:04 ◼ ► to give this stuff the spotlight while they're also having to do the work to hide the secrets
00:52:09 ◼ ► for next month. This episode is brought to you by Ladder. Look, let's be real. If you're like me,
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00:54:04 ◼ ► we'll do before like proper episode that we'll do before WWDCs and I'll give you a room around
00:54:09 ◼ ► up next week. And there have been lots of pieces of information about the headset so I thought we
00:54:15 ◼ ► would because this is the big thing right we're gonna try and tie as much of a bow around it as
00:54:21 ◼ ► possible with some of this stuff as we get ready to head into prime WWDC season and we will start
00:54:29 ◼ ► with an interesting set of reports from Mark Gurman detailing the thoughts and feelings of
00:54:37 ◼ ► executives at Apple on the headset project. Just in general a fascinating set of things. I actually
00:54:45 ◼ ► preferred the version as I tend to in the power on newsletter which just gave more of a breakdown of
00:54:51 ◼ ► basically every executive involved in the project and where their expected stance is which was
00:54:58 ◼ ► intriguing. Again this seems like a lot of information to have gotten and I really wonder
00:55:05 ◼ ► where Mark got this information but it's super fascinating to me. So there is some skepticism
00:55:26 ◼ ► Yeah let me decode that though. My guess is that frustrated staff members means there are people
00:55:33 ◼ ► who don't like things that happened and wish Tim would have intervened and he didn't. That's my
00:55:40 ◼ ► read on that. I could be wrong but do we expect Tim Cook to be really involved in product development?
00:55:47 ◼ ► I thought that one of the great things about Tim Cook is that he knows that he's not the product
00:55:53 ◼ ► guy and that he's looking at big picture strategy things and looking at the price and looking at the
00:55:58 ◼ ► timing and all of those things but otherwise not being involved. So I could be wrong. Again I'm
00:56:04 ◼ ► just guessing here but my immediate reaction when I saw that was I don't know that feels like sour
00:56:08 ◼ ► grapes from people who didn't get their way and were hoping Tim would override the people who made
00:56:13 ◼ ► the decisions and he didn't because he doesn't want to do that. Because we've heard about like
00:56:18 ◼ ► there were differing approaches that they were going to take right and maybe this is part of the
00:56:25 ◼ ► frustration that people didn't get the approach that they wanted. I'll tell you how I read this
00:56:30 ◼ ► one which is not too dissimilar from you it's just we know that Tim isn't a product person right like
00:56:36 ◼ ► but maybe there are people in Apple who were around for the other big product launches you
00:56:41 ◼ ► know like maybe the iPhone the iPad that kind of stuff right and their hope would be that they
00:56:45 ◼ ► would have a CEO who is involved in a brand new endeavor and maybe that frustrates them and he
00:56:53 ◼ ► just isn't because for as much as we know he kind of never is. Craig Federighi has kept his distance
00:57:01 ◼ ► from the project seeming wary of the effort. John Gruber on Daring Fireball pointed out
00:57:06 ◼ ► this would be quite a task considering he's head of all software for him to do so I don't know what
00:57:11 ◼ ► that means I mean look maybe he and I believe maybe he is skeptical but he can't really keep a
00:57:23 ◼ ► I'm not gonna help you build your fork of iOS that that uses a bunch of stuff that we well
00:57:29 ◼ ► the way this is phrased too it is probably more like Craig Federighi never seemed excited
00:57:40 ◼ ► and did what he needed to do but never went the extra mile and was reluctant to part with him
00:57:47 ◼ ► which I also understand like if this isn't Craig's project and he's really sort of supplying
00:57:57 ◼ ► doing that's very hard with iOS and iPadOS and you know and MacOS and all the other operating systems
00:58:03 ◼ ► out there and here's another platform and he's not down into the day the day-to-day of it either
00:58:07 ◼ ► he's trying to view this at a higher level then I could see why he might be like reluctant to dive
00:58:15 ◼ ► too far into this and right so again I have this thought which is like I mean maybe he thinks it's
00:58:22 ◼ ► a stupid idea but like also is this not sort of his job but I do think there's something there
00:58:27 ◼ ► which is sort of like Craig didn't go yeah let's let's I'll give you everything I got and you know
00:58:34 ◼ ► maybe people maybe people resented it on the headset side or maybe people on Craig's side
00:58:40 ◼ ► were like oh I'm so grateful that Craig protected me from the headset people but I don't know I mean
00:58:46 ◼ ► it seems like a very simplistic rendering of what was probably a very complicated balance between
00:58:52 ◼ ► what you offer as a part of the development of this and also like remember the days of the iPhone
00:58:58 ◼ ► the stories about that period of time like you've got the people who are in down deep with the
00:59:02 ◼ ► hardware and they've got software that they're using but they are also doing stuff that they
00:59:06 ◼ ► like at some point the people working on the project really have to just be down in the project
00:59:11 ◼ ► and I view you know unless Craig who knows but like I view that as being Craig Federighi saying
00:59:17 ◼ ► I'm gonna be doing this stuff over here while you guys are doing that over there and is that
00:59:21 ◼ ► is that spite or is that just how it worked out I don't know maybe I think you're right though
00:59:26 ◼ ► right that he's obviously involved but he could just be like doing what needs to be done but he's
00:59:34 ◼ ► not an internal champion of the project which is perfectly fair I think uh Johnny Tarruegi is
00:59:41 ◼ ► concerned that the focus on silicon for these devices could take away some focus from the iPhone
00:59:52 ◼ ► this one feels a bit more harsh yeah although we also don't know here's the other thing how
01:00:00 ◼ ► long has this project been going on since 2015 the report says right so okay how did Johnny
01:00:07 ◼ ► Tarruegi feel in 2015 how did he feel in 2019 how does he feel today this doesn't say right like
01:00:15 ◼ ► and and we know like in this Mark tries to make some links where he's like and honestly the gains
01:00:22 ◼ ► in the apple chips in the last couple of years have been a little bit less is that a sign that
01:00:27 ◼ ► this is going on it's like I don't know I mean it's really hard to tell like maybe maybe not we
01:00:32 ◼ ► don't know you wouldn't know unless you were in there I know that if I'm Johnny Tarruegi and I'm
01:00:38 ◼ ► looking at a skunkworks project to make a headset and they're telling me I need to do work on this
01:00:44 ◼ ► I would be kind of grumpy because it's like look I've got the crown jewels here with the iPhone
01:00:49 ◼ ► and we're doing this whole apple silicon thing with the mac now and you want me to do this thing
01:00:53 ◼ ► is it even going to ship like there are certainly eras where it's like you want me to spend money
01:00:57 ◼ ► on this science project that you've got going on over here when we're shipping iPhones like that's
01:01:05 ◼ ► what that really means and so again we're just left with this little kind of like shreds of
01:01:11 ◼ ► gossip that we've got here but I understand that and there is a detail I think in that report which
01:01:17 ◼ ► is that there is a wireless processor that they made because there was a version of this headset
01:01:26 ◼ ► or at some point along the way that was going to be a box it was going to be a little bit more like
01:01:32 ◼ ► a psvr it was going to be a computing box somewhere plugged in and it was where the power was
01:01:40 ◼ ► like the computing power and then it would be transmitting the content wirelessly back and forth
01:01:47 ◼ ► with the headset and at some point they said let's not do that we're going to put all of it on board
01:01:55 ◼ ► and we know that in the vr world that happened right there were a lot of tethered things
01:01:58 ◼ ► and then there was the next generation was like no we're going to take the tether away we're going
01:02:02 ◼ ► to use smartphone processors we're going to put them on the headsets and that way you don't have
01:02:05 ◼ ► cables draping all over you well apparently apple chip designers built the silicon for that box
01:02:12 ◼ ► and then it got killed yeah and would I be grumpy about that if I were johnny srirji absolutely like
01:02:18 ◼ ► you know we you we took our time to build this thing because you said it was important and now
01:02:23 ◼ ► you're not going to do it and we wasted our time so again I get it that was a johnny Ive decision
01:02:30 ◼ ► apparently in 2019 the information reported on this that they wanted to do a processing base
01:02:36 ◼ ► station but johnny went said that they shouldn't do this that it wasn't the right way to go
01:02:46 ◼ ► it isn't the right way to go like it's not going to push them towards vr glasses if they're leaning
01:02:52 ◼ ► on processing power being off-boarded right because at some point you've got to move that
01:02:57 ◼ ► processing power on board unless everybody's going to have an iphone or something that always has to
01:03:03 ◼ ► be with them and is going to be hot and you know plugged into losing its battery and like this
01:03:09 ◼ ► this would need to happen at some point the headset has been a product that jeff williams
01:03:14 ◼ ► has been a driving force on with the actual product team being led by mike rockwell cook
01:03:21 ◼ ► has leaned on williams to make the product a success which this is akin to the kind of stuff
01:03:27 ◼ ► that we've been hearing for a while right like obviously jeff has been running the apple watch
01:03:32 ◼ ► and now kind of oversees the hardware design team as well dan ricchio is in the mix he is mike
01:03:41 ◼ ► rockwell's boss and has worked exclusively on the headset for the last two years ricchio was
01:03:47 ◼ ► previously the hardware engineering chief and it is believed inside of apple that ricchio is probably
01:03:52 ◼ ► going to retire after this product comes to market interesting very interesting yeah this is the this
01:03:58 ◼ ► is the group it makes sense right jeff williams is sort of like please take this across the finish
01:04:02 ◼ ► line for me rockwell is the is the kind of product lead and now dan ricchio is in there uh also
01:04:10 ◼ ► working on this thing to get it across the finish line because there are obviously different phases
01:04:14 ◼ ► in these devices right and and it's such a huge job to bring any new platform out across the finish
01:04:20 ◼ ► line to use that keep using that metaphor like you have to change and uh what you do is different
01:04:25 ◼ ► because now it's sort of like now we need to produce it in in and mass produce it right like
01:04:30 ◼ ► what is involved with that and what are the costs of that and how are we going to set that up and
01:04:33 ◼ ► all of that is incredibly complicated so i'm not surprised that jeff williams has gotten the the
01:04:39 ◼ ► the tap here to come in and and uh bring it across to completion like uh happening with the apple
01:04:45 ◼ ► watch there's a fun detail in marks reporting that dan ricchio uh his last two products never saw the
01:04:53 ◼ ► light of day there was like a apple tv tv and the car and so like it's for dan ricchio i'd be
01:05:00 ◼ ► surprised if he retires it's like finally but i've been working on products for 10 years and none of
01:05:06 ◼ ► them would come out um but yeah i feel like these days we see john tournes right like in places where
01:05:12 ◼ ► dan ricchio would have been ricchio was in so many of the white room videos for a really really long
01:05:17 ◼ ► time yeah uh greg jaswiak is apparently one of the headset's biggest proponents on the executive team
01:05:24 ◼ ► which is helpful because he's got to sell the thing and apparently frank casanova is is leading
01:05:30 ◼ ► marketing uh presumably working for jaws and i had that that took me back because frank casanova in a
01:05:36 ◼ ► in a previous life was like the quick time guy at apple in like the late 90s still there or back i
01:05:45 ◼ ► think back there i think he left and came back but he's apparently uh for those who remember the 90s
01:05:51 ◼ ► uh mr quick time is now mr headset uh and yeah jaws wiak is is into it that's good it's good
01:05:58 ◼ ► because jaws is going to be out there being like it's amazing so uh mark irman says he's a believer
01:06:05 ◼ ► you'd hope so uh and phil schiller will be in charge of the launch event at wwc and apparently
01:06:13 ◼ ► really pushed for gaming to be a focus uh schiller is noted to have a expensive vr headset racing rig
01:06:22 ◼ ► at home so maybe he wants to replace all of that with his apple headset and this fits with what
01:06:29 ◼ ► we've i think heard before which is what happened after phil ascended to the rooftop seems to be
01:06:35 ◼ ► that phil is in charge of events and that sort of phil's involved in the apple but yeah yeah right
01:06:42 ◼ ► right but like phil phil sort of like not quite retired but reduced and it's sort of like very
01:06:48 ◼ ► some specific things that they have coaxed him to to remain doing to keep him uh attached at apple i
01:06:55 ◼ ► i think that this is one of those cases where phil doesn't have to be there but he he likes it and
01:07:00 ◼ ► they like having him around and so they've they've found this new spot for him but yeah my understanding
01:07:05 ◼ ► is that events are phil's thing yeah and it's like events are his thing and then it also makes sense
01:07:10 ◼ ► from a place of like you need phil like if you need him he's still there he's there yeah because
01:07:18 ◼ ► up on the roof someone with his there isn't anyone right with his level of experience at apple like
01:07:26 ◼ ► from the level that he's at for the time period that he has done it right right yeah so he's he's
01:07:35 ◼ ► like the the longest serving executive yeah he's the institutional memory yeah of apple at this
01:07:41 ◼ ► point yeah uh the whole project as i mentioned earlier began in 2015 the original plan was first
01:07:48 ◼ ► to be on mark on the market in 2020 which obviously didn't happen mark german reports that the original
01:07:53 ◼ ► intended vision of the project was of course a pair of eyeglasses that could be worn all day
01:07:57 ◼ ► all day we were obviously still very far away from that and apple is currently expecting
01:08:02 ◼ ► that we are four years from now away from all like just put the glasses on and go out into the world
01:08:10 ◼ ► it's a pretty long time but to me we spoke about on this show a million times feels like the
01:08:16 ◼ ► earliest time i could imagine like there's so much between this and that i can't see it being four
01:08:24 ◼ ► years even that's i agree it seems like a stretch i think 10 probably but like i don't know what they
01:08:30 ◼ ► think they can do in four years but i'll give you i'll give you end of the decade like 2030 maybe
01:08:37 ◼ ► but four years seems uh a bit much for something like this maybe nine to five mac is reporting on
01:08:44 ◼ ► the cost of the headset i want to read a quote here a report from watson xr details the bill
01:08:50 ◼ ► of materials for apple's upcoming mixed reality headset if the report is correct the components
01:08:55 ◼ ► could cost around 1400 per unit when shipping costs are added it comes to about 1600 the headset
01:09:01 ◼ ► is expected to be equipped with an m2 chip 12 gigabytes of ram 512 gigabytes of storage wi-fi
01:09:07 ◼ ► six and bluetooth 5.3 the most expensive components are the oled displays which are expected to be
01:09:14 ◼ ► 280 to 320 each and there will be at least two maybe three who could tell uh on this device so
01:09:23 ◼ ► yeah it's it's going to be expensive right and keep in mind this is this is 1600 per unit in
01:09:39 ◼ ► do these stories that get hyped that are like oh that thousand dollar iphone it only cost 128
01:09:46 ◼ ► in parts what a rip-off and you're like well no like they have to assemble it and they had to make
01:09:50 ◼ ► a bunch of those parts and there's the software and there's like there's so much that goes into
01:09:55 ◼ ► development which are obviously going to take a bath on if they've been working on this since
01:09:59 ◼ ► 2015 exactly right like that's not going to be paid back by these headsets yeah so when you put
01:10:06 ◼ ► it all together what you get is uh okay 14 or 1600 i think that gives you an idea of the floor
01:10:16 ◼ ► of a product like this like even and i don't think it's 1600 right like i don't think that's it i
01:10:22 ◼ ► think i think that you're looking at uh a 2000 2500 product like out the door really and that's
01:10:30 ◼ ► if they don't which which we've said like i i don't know where their bar is in terms of like
01:10:37 ◼ ► the red zone of like you don't go down here in terms of margin but um even if they go into the
01:10:44 ◼ ► red zone of margin it's going to be an extremely expensive product but on the other side this is
01:10:49 ◼ ► what we've been hearing all along this is an expensive product because it's an expensive
01:10:54 ◼ ► product to make and that's because apple has really approached this as the spare no expense
01:11:01 ◼ ► state of the art best in class this is what vr and ar can be product yeah and then the challenge is
01:11:08 ◼ ► from here they're going to need to iterate and they're going to need to improve things while
01:11:13 ◼ ► also trying to get the price down and all the rumors are that there's a second model stream
01:11:19 ◼ ► that is going to use the same platform but be a lot cheaper and they they have chosen to go
01:11:26 ◼ ► out with the expensive one if you want this to work you've got to blow people away and i think
01:11:30 ◼ ► that's the strategy if i if we're if we are flies on the wall inside apple and by the way apple do
01:11:36 ◼ ► something about these flies why are there flies all over the place um it but if we are flies on
01:11:40 ◼ ► the wall the apple that's got to be the argument right that's got to be the argument is this is a
01:11:44 ◼ ► huge thing for the future we're invested in it we think in the long term this is going to be on
01:11:48 ◼ ► everybody's faces uh in the short term the tech isn't all there yet but if we're going to go out
01:11:53 ◼ ► with something with the tech not all there yet we want it to be the best and define this category
01:11:58 ◼ ► and show what is possible and blow people away so that this category continues to exist and that we
01:12:03 ◼ ► have set the bar in the category and we and probably we have set the bar in a way that will
01:12:08 ◼ ► make it very difficult for anyone else to meet what we've done right like that that's got to be
01:12:12 ◼ ► part of it anyways not only are we saying this is going to be the best experience ever but it's like
01:12:16 ◼ ► who's gonna match it it's meta right no maybe not because look everyone that has wanted to try vr
01:12:31 ◼ ► world have had their first vr experience where it's like wow you know this is amazing i love
01:12:39 ◼ ► how good this feels this is i'm so immersed right now all that kind of stuff but now apple has to
01:12:44 ◼ ► come in and leapfrog right they have to come in and be like no this is what you can do we'll blow
01:12:50 ◼ ► you away some other way and then they can move forward from there we've made this and i've made
01:12:54 ◼ ► this comparison before the original iphone was inconceivably expensive for what smartphones cost
01:13:01 ◼ ► at the time right like you got smartphones for free your phone was free with your contract or it
01:13:06 ◼ ► was like a couple hundred dollars or whatever it's like no it's an 800 smartphone it's why there's
01:13:11 ◼ ► that clip of steve balmer laughing so much because it was so expensive compared to the competition
01:13:16 ◼ ► and that's where they've got to go again they did it them for a reason because it blew you away and
01:13:21 ◼ ► you wanted one and they need to be able to get people like me like you like mkbhd to say i've
01:13:28 ◼ ► tried this thing and it you cannot believe how good it is right like that's what they need and
01:13:34 ◼ ► that's why you've got to go expensive but now they've got to make sure the software meets it
01:13:38 ◼ ► like that's the thing uh john grubber was questioning on during fireball how on earth is
01:13:44 ◼ ► apple going to fit everything that they need to into wwdc if you've got ios ipad os mac os watch
01:13:50 ◼ ► os and new max is like just the basics and that's letting things go at that point how are you going
01:13:56 ◼ ► to fit it in friend of the show zach knox who puts together the draft scorecards for us went through
01:14:02 ◼ ► and looked at the run times of the previous six uh wwcs pre-covid three years in a row over two
01:14:10 ◼ ► hours since 2020 with the virtual like the video events all under two hours this is going to be two
01:14:16 ◼ ► and a half hours right like there's just no way to do it i don't know i think two hours is always
01:14:22 ◼ ► the goal for them and i think that cutting things out is a lot easier and compressing things i think
01:14:28 ◼ ► it's going to be super high uh compression level yep and let's not forget the keynote is not the
01:14:35 ◼ ► end right the keynote is the we want to show this to the masses and they have this great footnote
01:14:41 ◼ ► section which is the state of the union and then they've got the the rest of the notes which are
01:14:46 ◼ ► the rest of the week right so really you've got some variability in terms of what you can put in
01:14:53 ◼ ► the keynote you can really cut it down and say we've got some amazing things and you blast through
01:14:58 ◼ ► them and you leave a bunch of stuff on the website because it doesn't matter and the developers are
01:15:02 ◼ ► paying attention to state of the union they're paying attention to all the sessions you're trying
01:15:06 ◼ ► to get because if you think of it as a an event for everyone an event for a wider audience there
01:15:14 ◼ ► is a limit to how much information you can dump on them right so you do two and a half hours
01:15:21 ◼ ► i i could make the argument that two and a half hours is just too long and it doesn't matter how
01:15:25 ◼ ► much stuff if you've got that much stuff you have two choices pull things out like don't announce
01:15:30 ◼ ► them which would be like other products or uh move it to the auxiliary keynote which is state
01:15:39 ◼ ► of the union or compress but like nobody wants my argument would be nobody wants to sit through two
01:15:46 ◼ ► and a half hours and that that that among the mainstream and that if you want them to form an
01:15:51 ◼ ► opinion other than this is really boring you don't want it to go more than two hours and on top of
01:15:56 ◼ ► that you undoubtedly have saved the headset for last and the last thing you want is to try
01:16:04 ◼ ► everyone's patience with a traditional keynote video and then at the end when it's almost two
01:16:10 ◼ ► hours give them another half hour of your most important thing right so if i had to guess and
01:16:17 ◼ ► we'll have to do a draft choice about this right i will set the over under and all that but i'm just
01:16:22 ◼ ► saying for the purposes of of of not outside of competition i think they want to hit two hours
01:16:28 ◼ ► it doesn't mean that they will they may end up brutally at 210 or 220 but i think they're going
01:16:34 ◼ ► to try very hard to go to two hours and that would be my argument why is that even if they're it's
01:16:40 ◼ ► full of stuff after two hours people are tired they don't care anymore so so it doesn't matter
01:16:45 ◼ ► it doesn't matter if you've got three hours worth of stuff people are only going to pay attention
01:16:49 ◼ ► to two hours worth of stuff so get it under two hours i think personally they will cut they will
01:16:57 ◼ ► edit they will make sure they've got all the things that only have to be there and it will
01:17:02 ◼ ► still be over two hours i just i just don't see like a way to to add another like os and hardware
01:17:11 ◼ ► like it's that's an hour on its own right like just the headset i feel like but we'll see yeah
01:17:17 ◼ ► but i i think the os releases for the other platforms though can be really short i think
01:17:21 ◼ ► that's what's gonna happen right i think they're gonna be like hey we've got new we've got new
01:17:25 ◼ ► platforms here and in fact the question is will they even do iphone ipad mac os apple tv or will
01:17:31 ◼ ► they say let's talk about our platforms and talk about features across all the platforms because
01:17:37 ◼ ► right that was the thing that we've been talking about the last few years is at what point do they
01:17:40 ◼ ► change the game and talk about ios and mac os and ipad os sort of like interchangeably instead of
01:17:46 ◼ ► doing what they've done the last few years which is like artificially withhold features from one
01:17:50 ◼ ► so they can announce it in the other and say oh yes and also this works on the previous ones that
01:17:54 ◼ ► i that i've already mentioned and the ones i haven't mentioned yet right like they could
01:17:58 ◼ ► structure it differently they could keep it simple it's supposed to be a fairly light year in terms
01:18:03 ◼ ► of all of this so i wonder if they could they could get that down uh more than usual i feel
01:18:09 ◼ ► like the reporting changed from that that was the original one and then you know the last few months
01:18:14 ◼ ► we've had all this other stuff right like here's the journaling app and like the like i think there
01:18:20 ◼ ► is more than was initially expected keep in mind though what's the purpose i would come back to
01:18:27 ◼ ► what's the purpose of this event and the purpose of this event is to have a big stage to do big
01:18:32 ◼ ► ideas right and yes to launch normally it's to launch the new os cycles but like if the purpose
01:18:37 ◼ ► of this event is to launch the headset the new os cycles can can wait right they can wait for state
01:18:42 ◼ ► of the union they can wait for press release and they can wait for the fall when they ship right
01:18:46 ◼ ► like it's not it's not necessary to detail every new feature of your operating system in june in one
01:18:54 ◼ ► time slot it's really not it's nice and they do it but like if you've got the headset there like you
01:19:01 ◼ ► don't you just don't have to you've got all summer and then you're going to have to reintroduce it in
01:19:05 ◼ ► the fall right where they do the iphone event and they explain that all the features of the
01:19:09 ◼ ► new operating system at the iphone event we're all like we know we heard that in june but the rest of
01:19:14 ◼ ► the world doesn't care they forgot or they didn't pay attention because it doesn't matter and
01:19:18 ◼ ► everybody's going to be paying attention to the headset so i can make an argument that the the
01:19:22 ◼ ► other os stuff will be perfunctory because they can get away with it and then all of us nerds will
01:19:26 ◼ ► be like oh god what but what what's on the pages and then we'll be looking at the state of the union
01:19:31 ◼ ► and we'll be watching all the videos and we'll be pouring through all those pages and that's fine
01:19:35 ◼ ► because that's us nerds the rest of the world is going to be headset headset headset headset and
01:19:40 ◼ ► that's kind of the most important part macrumus is reporting that apple has filed trademarks via a
01:19:53 ◼ ► so look at the url that's in our show notes like if you click the link in the show notes you can
01:20:11 ◼ ► they're just covering their bases right like xr os is bad enough xr pro os that's just it looks bad
01:20:24 ◼ ► yeah i think i think this is one of those like legal covering everything but i love that there's
01:20:32 ◼ ► a shell company registering these trademarks this that's apple's thing they go to various
01:20:46 ◼ ► and in argentina and in new zealand and like they're just all over the place and that's their
01:20:53 ◼ ► strategy now right is just flood the zone with various names it works if you enjoy this show
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01:22:04 ◼ ► episode with some ask upgrade questions now that apple is getting ready to release their pro apps
01:22:12 ◼ ► final cut pro and logic for the ipad do you think they will release xcode this year at wwdc
01:22:19 ◼ ► i don't i mean it would be great but i don't and the reason i don't is it feels like there's so
01:22:26 ◼ ► much complexity in xcode that is tied to so much that's running on mac os that to bring it all
01:22:34 ◼ ► to ipad i i'm not sure ipad os just has the stuff to do it and we see with playgrounds that what
01:22:41 ◼ ► they've instead been trying to do is create a development environment that's capable of
01:22:47 ◼ ► submitting to the app store but doesn't have all those encumbrances on ipad os at some point
01:22:53 ◼ ► playgrounds can't be called playgrounds at some point playgrounds has to be xcode or something
01:22:57 ◼ ► like it and be a more you know an even richer development environment but if they released
01:23:06 ◼ ► xcode for the ipad i think it would look more like playgrounds i think it would not be full xcode i
01:23:12 ◼ ► think that that's where they're headed with that um i prepare i'm prepared to be surprised but i
01:23:17 ◼ ► just feel like there's so much about xcode that is designed with the knowledge of what the mac is
01:23:23 ◼ ► capable of and mac os it gives them access to as app developers because apple you know apple it
01:23:29 ◼ ► does matter apple can make os changes for its apps that's what they're apparently doing with final cut
01:23:34 ◼ ► and logic but uh there are limits i'd say there are limits to that i feel like maybe it's something
01:23:43 ◼ ► that would need like a we've rethought xcode right and then if they've done that maybe they could do
01:23:51 ◼ ► an ipad version you're right it does feel like there's just maybe too much underlying structure
01:23:58 ◼ ► that you wouldn't be able to get a convincing version of it on ipad os right like you could do it
01:24:13 ◼ ► is it even worth calling it xcode i think that's the question i mean we'll see what people think
01:24:18 ◼ ► about final cut right like final cut obviously does not have everything um it's clear from the
01:24:23 ◼ ► announcement does not have everything that it does on the mac but they call it the final cut
01:24:27 ◼ ► so this is the question like are you just bringing pain on yourself by saying well this is what we
01:24:31 ◼ ► call xcode on the ipad and it's not xcode and everybody's like snooty about it like this is
01:24:35 ◼ ► next more i'd say more likely that apple is working on a next generation development environment that
01:24:42 ◼ ► will run on the ipad that might run on the mac too uh that is uh you know for the next generation of
01:24:48 ◼ ► of software whether that's based on playgrounds or it's based on something completely different
01:24:52 ◼ ► i think that's more likely than that they would bring what we consider xcode to the ipad i feel
01:24:57 ◼ ► like it's fair to assume that at some point in apple's future the development tools will be
01:25:02 ◼ ► swift and swift ui like that will be all that is i feel like you need to get there yeah i think
01:25:08 ◼ ► that's right certainly certainly if well we've got this legacy version you know the the xcode that
01:25:14 ◼ ► still runs on mac os and you can use that but if you're not using that old stuff we have this new
01:25:19 ◼ ► development environment that you can use something like that right john asks do you think tapbots
01:25:25 ◼ ► will release an ivory-esque client for blue sky um maybe i feel like if it wins or right like it
01:25:38 ◼ ► if may like it feels like yeah why not but there there's already i don't know did you see that
01:25:46 ◼ ► there's a blue sky uh bridge for for mastodon uh yeah there there is a project i'm gonna have to
01:25:53 ◼ ► find it but um there's a bridge that lets you log in in ivory it's sort of designed for ivory
01:26:02 ◼ ► to blue sky as a as a separate account and it works i i did it this weekend it totally works
01:26:10 ◼ ► so i guess the question is what's the opportunity for third-party clients i think i think it makes
01:26:16 ◼ ► sense as long as it doesn't break the metaphors that that ivory has already had the advantage of
01:26:22 ◼ ► of uh them doing it natively instead of using a bridge is that they could map things maybe better
01:26:30 ◼ ► following uh twitterific uh i this is the kind of thing i think too which is multiple formats
01:26:36 ◼ ► multiple services in one sort of like social media app that that that can connect to open formats
01:26:42 ◼ ► um but yes skybridge is the name of it skybridge.fly.dev and i have used that over the weekend
01:26:51 ◼ ► and i i don't know if it'll keep working i don't know i don't know but uh it totally works
01:26:59 ◼ ► at least this weekend it worked for me uh and i that means i have blue sky in ivory just as
01:27:06 ◼ ► a separate account and it it's very interesting so i think i think you'll see stuff like that
01:27:10 ◼ ► i mean that will probably just become a thing you could do anyway right like that just feels like
01:27:15 ◼ ► part of the blue sky thing yeah in fact i would be i would actually think it would be more that
01:27:22 ◼ ► ivory would get blue sky support than that there would be a separate client for blue sky because
01:27:27 ◼ ► they seem close enough that maybe you should just sort of like have an app that does them instead
01:27:35 ◼ ► of having to because the amount of overhead to build a separate app for that other social network
01:27:40 ◼ ► uh but who knows but it certainly seems very possible because there's also like joe's mentioned
01:27:46 ◼ ► in the live discord too that there's an instagram project right it's called project barcelona is what
01:27:52 ◼ ► they're calling it which is also their attempt to join the text-based decentralized universe
01:28:11 ◼ ► right like why is this app called ivory yep well son there was a there was this thing called mass
01:28:20 ◼ ► it all started with this thing called mastodon which yeah exactly uh so yeah i don't know um
01:28:26 ◼ ► and maybe they do change the name over time to make it something else or maybe they just leave
01:28:30 ◼ ► it because it's gotten enough cache and enough foil users that it doesn't matter but that's
01:28:36 ◼ ► yeah i think the beauty of this whether you're the icon factory which has not released something but
01:28:40 ◼ ► has been talking about it or whether your tap bots which has released something and is obviously
01:28:44 ◼ ► thinking about this stuff too is if you've got a bunch of open protocols for text-based twitter-like
01:28:52 ◼ ► things and uh they're similar enough that you could support them all in one app maybe that's
01:28:59 ◼ ► the direction that they'll go maybe not maybe they'll be different enough that they're best
01:29:03 ◼ ► served but i know that i i prefer having not like three different apps that i have to juggle
01:29:09 ◼ ► and also make a wild prediction which is at some point the remnants of twitter will be owned by
01:29:16 ◼ ► somebody who does this i i would not be surprised if at some point twitter ends up just being
01:29:22 ◼ ► another end point for this text-based chat because i have a hard time believing no well like i said i
01:29:29 ◼ ► think i think it's the remnants of twitter yeah when they've when they've been sold off or gone
01:29:33 ◼ ► bankrupt or whatever um what a result that would somebody will find value of the whole thing right
01:29:39 ◼ ► it's just like that's just i mean seems realistic but like that it's just like a wild thing to
01:29:45 ◼ ► consider that it just ends up it ends up becoming one end point for its replacement huh i would say
01:29:56 ◼ ► as well you mentioned icon factory at this point they seem for oppression and their idea of like
01:30:00 ◼ ► we're just not going to jump to mastodon like we're just going to wait out a little bit and
01:30:03 ◼ ► see what happens because we have a you know ideas that are maybe bigger than this and that's what
01:30:07 ◼ ► kind of what's happening already right of like well it was mastodon but now blue sky's here and
01:30:12 ◼ ► now this is here now this is here maybe what we will need eventually is some kind of app closer
01:30:18 ◼ ► to an rss reader in a way which is just like it just pulls in a bunch of sources and can display
01:30:23 ◼ ► those to you and colin asks would you like apple to do a one-time numbering alignment across all
01:30:30 ◼ ► of its product lines and software so that ios 18 is an iphone 18 and paired with watchos 18
01:30:36 ◼ ► or would you go a difference with a different scheme altogether don't forget the a18 processor
01:30:42 ◼ ► which is another teenage number that is out there with uh with apple stuff in it it's very
01:30:49 ◼ ► confusing i like what samsung did when they just went to the calendar year for their for their
01:30:54 ◼ ► products and i think apple should do this i agree i agree it would be much easier if in 2023 what we
01:31:01 ◼ ► got was ios 23 iphone 23 and the a23 processor yeah super simple that would be a lot easier it
01:31:10 ◼ ► could even be dare i say it the m23 processor i know it's big numbers and all of that but if
01:31:17 ◼ ► they're tied to the year or the model year if you whatever but i hate that they're all different
01:31:24 ◼ ► that's what kills me is that they're all on basically annual cycles maybe not the m but the
01:31:28 ◼ ► a series the ios and ipad os numbers and the iphone numbers they're all on annual cycles
01:31:35 ◼ ► and so they're incrementing together but they're at slightly different places in terms of their
01:31:41 ◼ ► numbers i i really would like them to line it all up and and one way to do that would just be to tie
01:31:47 ◼ ► it to the year because you could also talk contextually too then right you wouldn't necessarily
01:31:54 ◼ ► you could just say this year's iphone and then you're just like we know what that means which we
01:31:57 ◼ ► already say anyway and yeah i would love that i think that would be wonderful i don't think
01:32:03 ◼ ► it'll do it but no but it would be nice to dream if you would like to send in your ask upgrade
01:32:11 ◼ ► questions or your feedback or your follow-up go to upgrade feedback.com and you can send them in
01:32:16 ◼ ► there if before next week's episode you would like to read Jason's work go to sixcolors.com you can
01:32:22 ◼ ► also hear his podcast at the incomparable.com and here on relay fm you can listen to my shows here
01:32:34 ◼ ► jason is at j snell on zeppelin.flights you can find me as at i mike on mike.social and you can
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01:32:57 ◼ ► and support the show thank you to ladder and zockdoc for their support of this week's episode