460: Mr. QuickTime is Now Mr. Headset


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 460. Today's show is brought to you by ZocDoc and Ladder.

00:00:16   My name is Mike Hurley and I'm joined by the man from Six Colors, Mr. Jason Snow. Hi, Jason.

00:00:21   Hi, Mike. You made me sound like a secret agent or something. Yes, the man from Six Colors is here.

00:00:27   He knows, here's the real secret. License to color. Jason knows the seventh color as well,

00:00:33   but he just won't tell you what it is. It's ultraviolet. I have a Snail Talk question for

00:00:40   you. It comes from Zach who wants to know, "Jason, when you are eating leftover pizza,

00:00:45   do you eat it cold or do you reheat the pizza?" With the pizza, we're in a little run here, Mike,

00:00:51   these pizza questions. I have some pizza follow-up actually before you get to the Snail Talk.

00:00:56   Okay. Federico was happy with the Anduja. He said he'll forgive me for hot honey because he's a fan

00:01:02   of Anduja. Oh, good. So, you know, if you're wondering how the Italians are feeling about

00:01:07   our pizza conversations, there's another piece of update for you. Okay, sounds good. I didn't even

00:01:15   know that. I thought you made a mistake and we're describing Andouille sausage. I know. Yeah,

00:01:21   I'll have to have it sometime when I see it on the menu. I think you'd like it. The answer to

00:01:26   Zach's question is yes. I do sometimes eat it cold. I do sometimes reheat it. The question

00:01:35   becomes sort of like, do I want to go to the trouble of reheating it or not? I am, and this

00:01:41   is going to open us up for so much other follow-up, but I am deeply against toaster ovens. Okay.

00:01:51   Shots fired. I like slot toasters. Me too. I like ovens. That's what I like. I have a microwave.

00:01:58   Microwaves are not great for reheating pizza. I have a pizza stone because I cook, especially in

00:02:04   the winter when I don't have my outdoor pizza oven that I cook on. I have a pizza stone, and it's

00:02:11   really easy to just put cold pizza on the pizza stone and put it on, or on a sheet of tinfoil,

00:02:18   and put it on 350. And that's my tip, by the way, is you put, for Fahrenheit people, 350 degrees,

00:02:24   you put the pizza in, you wait until your oven says, "I've reached 350 degrees," and then you

00:02:30   just take the pizza out. You eat it. But it does take a little while because unlike, I'm going to

00:02:34   admit here, unlike the toaster oven, it takes a little while to heat up the whole oven. So

00:02:41   toaster ovens have got us there. In fact, that's the thing that I will acknowledge,

00:02:45   the toaster ovens are superior for. I do not reheat pizza enough to buy a toaster oven and have a big

00:02:51   extra appliance sitting on my counters. I have limited counter space. Toaster oven,

00:02:57   waste of space for me. Sorry. No, thanks. Prefer the slot toaster. But sometimes I'm impatient or

00:03:05   lazy and I don't want to. And you know what? Pizza is great cold too. It's just different.

00:03:10   So sometimes I reheat it and sometimes I don't. That's just how it is, Zach. Sometimes you feel

00:03:14   like it. Sometimes you don't. I agree with you because so much work when I have pizza from

00:03:21   yesterday and I might just want to just take a munch. I don't want to reheat it. It's good cold.

00:03:25   It's fine. You just do the whole thing. You just do it. It's easy peasy. A little real-time follow-up

00:03:31   from our friend James Thompson in the Really AFM Members Discord saying microwave old pizza is just

00:03:38   fine. I think fine is emphasized there. So it's fine. And he's right. I've done it. I don't prefer

00:03:46   it. But is there an interim state between eating it cold and waiting all the time it takes to heat

00:03:52   it up? In which you might microwave it just out of desperation? Yes, there is. But I don't recommend

00:03:59   it because it's all floppy and not that great. But again, pizza is good in all its forms. For all I

00:04:05   know, you could crunch on some frozen pizza and it'd be good. Why wouldn't it be? We have entered

00:04:11   into a completely new realm of follow-up in that I've been getting just so much follow-up about

00:04:19   pizza to the upgrade feedback, which is fine. We're not going to go over it all, but I appreciate

00:04:25   the people letting me know. Multiple people, Jason, tell me that they've gone to the Utah place

00:04:30   that you spoke about and had the pizza and liked it. I appreciate it. If this is where people want

00:04:35   to send their pizza information to, they can. You know what you get with us? You don't get any

00:04:39   judgment. There's no judgment here. I was going to joke and say we ought to start getting pizza

00:04:44   related sponsors, but that already happened. We've already got one. We've got the best one already.

00:04:49   Don't need to do that. Not today though. If you would like to send in a Snail Talk question of

00:04:54   your own, just go to upgradefeedback.com, tick the box that says Snail Talk and send one in. You may

00:05:00   help us start a future episode of the show. Next week is the draft. I'll talk about that in a

00:05:05   little bit. If you have any draft related Snail Talk questions, you might want to send one in.

00:05:09   Maybe we'll do one. Maybe we won't. Maybe we'll keep you guessing. A little bit of a follow-up

00:05:14   for you, Mike. It's not a box you tick. It's a pop-up and you have to select the pop-up.

00:05:20   Yeah, you know why? On my side on the back, it is a box that I tick to see those. So yes,

00:05:25   you are correct. It is a, what do they call those? Like a something. A pop-up. Drop down, pop up.

00:05:31   Drop down. It's a little menu. You got to select Snail Talk from the menu.

00:05:35   There you go. Do that. The picker, the chooser, the whatever. Just pick it,

00:05:40   but don't look for a box to tick because the only box to tick is the one that says keep me anonymous.

00:05:46   Don't do that unless you need to be anonymous because otherwise I have to call you a nun.

00:05:50   Do you want to be called a nun or do you want your real name? You let me know. You'd be a part

00:05:54   of Mike's secret pizza. Tick line. Tip informers. Yeah. We had some follow-up sent in to the form.

00:06:02   Non-pizza related. Send in information. Yes. About past key sharing. So there was a couple

00:06:09   of things here. Adam said, because we were talking about past key sharing in Upgrade Plus.

00:06:13   Last time I was expressing some concern about how would you share past keys between individuals. Like

00:06:20   if you have like a shared login. Adam wrote in and said an account only has a single password,

00:06:25   but can have multiple past keys associated to it. So you don't need to share past keys.

00:06:30   Instead you register multiple past keys on a single account. The problem is signing the

00:06:34   other person in remotely so they can add their past key. Signing in someone remotely is kind

00:06:39   of like phishing, which is what past keys are set up to prevent. So currently you would have to be

00:06:43   physically together to set it up. So that's fine. Makes sense. I guess I'm intrigued about what one

00:06:49   password are going to do when it comes to that. I think that maybe their implementation might be

00:06:52   different. Peter writes in and says one passwords past key support will soon be released and then

00:06:57   past keys could be shared in a multi-person vault or similar in much the same way that existing

00:07:03   passwords can be shared. And I took a look at one passwords website. They have like a bunch of

00:07:08   information about past keys, which you would understand because like they're trying to be very,

00:07:13   very past key focused. So they still have a business, I suppose. Uh, but I actually think

00:07:20   that there is a lot of benefits still to having something like one password for me, I think when

00:07:26   even it comes to past keys, because one of the things that concerns me about changing from

00:07:32   passwords to past keys is like, will I still have this like central place where I can manage them

00:07:38   all? You know what I mean? Right? Like what I like about one password is I have all of my passwords

00:07:43   in one password and what I wasn't sure about when it came to past keys is like, do they just exist

00:07:49   in the iOS passwords app? Because I don't want that to be the case for me. Um, but one password

00:07:56   I've put together all this stuff and it looks very easy to save your past keys into there. And then

00:08:01   it also seems like you can share them from there as well. So that's coming on June 6th. Like there

00:08:06   is, is one passwords, um, support for past keys. But I think right now there just isn't a lot of

00:08:14   past keys that you can create, but this would make me feel more comfortable personally to move some

00:08:19   of my passwords over if I could also still just have them in one password, which is where I like

00:08:23   my passwords. Great. You use one password, right? Do you feel any particular way about having your

00:08:31   past keys in there? Like would that make you more likely to swap over to a past key login if you

00:08:36   could put it in there? Right now I'm happy to use Apple system because they're all just for me, but

00:08:42   I, um, I would definitely like to have the ability to share those with Lauren and potentially other

00:08:50   members of my family. Um, if, if you picture a world where everything's a past key, then I need

00:08:58   a way to share those past keys and you know, this would be a, uh, our existing workflow to use that.

00:09:03   So that would be, that would be nice. And we all, you know, we use one password to share all sorts

00:09:06   of other stuff too, you know, frequent flyer, mile numbers and all sorts of stuff like that.

00:09:11   Drivers license numbers. Yeah. Jason, you have experienced the quad box, the quad box,

00:09:18   quad box, everyone. The quad box has arrived. Can you, uh, so this was the multi view

00:09:25   multi view for the TV sports stuff on Apple TV 4k. Can you tell me what the quad box experience

00:09:33   was like? Um, I think it's really good. It's different from my experience with the Fubo TV

00:09:40   quad box that I use for my, um, over the top. Uh, I've got, yes, it's compared to quad box.

00:09:45   It's like absolute gibberish. It's a Fubo TV quad box. Mike, welcome to comparative quad box.

00:09:53   I'm, I'm your professor, Jason, Jason, Jason, Jason. Oh, that's good. That's good. It's very

00:10:01   refined. So the way you work, the way it works is there's an additional square. That's the latest

00:10:05   version of TV OS. So in addition to when you, when you bring up the kind of, uh, the player UI,

00:10:10   there's like the picture in picture button and there's a, uh, uh, audio streams button and a

00:10:15   subtitles button. And then there's now a, uh, a quad box button. That's a little four square

00:10:21   kind of thing. And if you hit that, what happens is the, the video stream you're watching pulls back

00:10:27   and up from the bottom of the screen comes a lit a list of, and this is all in the TV app only right

00:10:32   now. Um, it's a list of other available live content, um, that's playable in the TV app.

00:10:40   So if you click on another, so, uh, if you're watching MLS, another MLS game or a baseball game

00:10:48   on Friday night, or both, if both are going on, um, and what will happen is that item,

00:10:54   those little items are down at the bottom of the screen with little pluses, and then you click one

00:10:58   and it adds it to the playing area at the top of the screen. And it plus turns into, I think,

00:11:03   a check and your, the one you're already watching is also down there and it's already checked,

00:11:07   right? So the idea is down below there is sort of like, what is in the quad box for, you know,

00:11:13   again, two, two by two, uh, you know, it could be two or it could be three, it could be four.

00:11:18   Um, you swipe up and the stuff on the bottom goes away to bring it back. You swipe back down to

00:11:24   bring up the multi-view kind of control. Um, you can choose, there's some different layouts.

00:11:29   There's kind of like a big and small, um, there's a, uh, four, you know, in, in the square, the

00:11:35   classic quad boxes, I would call it, but there's also one where there's one on the left and then

00:11:39   three in a stack on the right that are small. Depends on your preference really to, to how you

00:11:45   want to watch this. And then in terms of how you use it, you can very much like Fubo, um, if you

00:11:50   swipe around, it'll change where the audio input is coming from. So you can listen to audio from

00:11:54   any of them. Um, unlike Fubo, um, so Fubo, when you're in that multi-up view, uh, where there's

00:12:03   like a big one, a little one, I believe you can click on one and it makes it the big one,

00:12:07   click on a small one and makes it the big one. Apple doesn't work like that. And it actually,

00:12:11   I think is maybe a smarter move. So with Apple, you do exactly what you might expect, which is

00:12:15   that if there's a little one that you want to make the big one, you tap and hold essentially like,

00:12:21   so that it wiggles. I don't think it actually wiggles, but it's that same gesture. And then

00:12:25   you swipe it over and it just becomes the big one instead of the small one. You can rearrange

00:12:29   the windows that way. And if any of them are ones that you want to see at full screen, you,

00:12:34   you click and it zooms in full screen. So you can very quickly, once you learn the gestures,

00:12:39   have like your four up of four different soccer games and swipe around the audio and then tap

00:12:44   and zoom into one where it's very exciting and then hit back and it goes back. The one thing I

00:12:49   also noticed that's different, and I don't know what Fubo is doing in the background, but Apple

00:12:54   is not maintaining the streams when you're not viewing them. So when you zoom into one,

00:13:01   Apple seems to drop the other streams. It's only streaming the game you're watching,

00:13:05   which makes sense, right? But what it means is that when you zoom back out, the other three

00:13:10   streams are stills and then they pick up and they start to play. It's a little less elegant, but

00:13:16   if Fubo, if I'm watching two things at once and I'm zoomed into one of them, is it streaming the

00:13:21   other one in the background? And it probably shouldn't be, but I think maybe it is. So anyway,

00:13:26   yeah, you can watch multiple things on it. And I think if you've got Apple TV channels,

00:13:32   and so you're subscribing to other services that have sports within the TV app, I think you can

00:13:39   use multi-view for that too. But what's missing, and who knows, maybe we'll see it at WWDC. We

00:13:46   should put it on the draft list, is it would be really nice if this feature worked across apps

00:13:51   so that you could have multiple views of live sporting events at once across different apps,

00:13:58   because a lot of sporting events are in different apps. Maybe we'll get there, but it's a very nice

00:14:03   implementation for the very limited kind of content, live sports content that's in Apple's

00:14:09   TV app right now. That's good. - The way you described it to me,

00:14:13   it sounded like you were kind of doing incantations with the TV remote. Do you think this is

00:14:19   complicated? I know you said you got your, like, once you get to know it, it's fine, but is it

00:14:25   complicated to learn this stuff? - I think it's pretty intuitive, honestly, because there are not

00:14:30   that many things you can do with the Apple TV remote. The one thing that is not entirely

00:14:34   intuitive is if you want to pick up and move something. I'd say that's the least necessary

00:14:40   of all the gestures. And if you use an Apple TV remote, I mean, I didn't know it did that.

00:14:47   I just said, "Well, let's try it." And that's what it did. I was like, "Okay." I intuited that that's

00:14:53   probably how it worked, and it's totally how it works. So I'm going to give that a thumbs up too.

00:14:57   But I think in its most basic form, you're watching one thing and you say, "Put me in

00:15:01   the Quad box," and you go add, add, add, and now you've got four, and you're swiping around to

00:15:06   change the audio and clicking into whichever one is selected, and it zooms in, and you press the

00:15:11   back button, it zooms back out. I think it's pretty straightforward. It's a, I guess, sort

00:15:16   of a power user feature, but if Apple's going to get into sports, I mean, this is a sports viewing

00:15:20   feature, and it's a great sports viewing feature. So I'm glad they built it. I feel bad if they built

00:15:28   it for NFL Sunday Ticket and then they didn't get that contract, but I think it's great for

00:15:34   their sporting ambitions going forward. I also heard, I got some feedback that like in certain

00:15:39   other countries like yours, there are not a lot of simultaneous sporting events. Like for example,

00:15:43   they only show, you know, they don't really show multiple Premier League matches up against each

00:15:48   other. I had to break it to that person and that in the U.S. they do. We get to see all of them,

00:15:53   which doesn't happen in the UK apparently, which is sad. We have better English soccer than you,

00:15:59   apparently. But it's a great feature for sports fans, and if you don't get it,

00:16:03   you know, and you're not a sports fan, like, okay, I get it. But trust me, I have on weekends in the

00:16:12   fall, especially when like college football is going on, or even on a Sunday with pro football,

00:16:17   I have the quad box going on my TV and I love it. So I'm glad Apple has built a better quad box.

00:16:26   Also, all the corners are little rounded corners, which is very Apple. It's totally unnecessary,

00:16:33   and yet they did it. So that's kind of cute too. It's very Apple.

00:16:36   Mime stream 1.0 has shipped.

00:16:40   Mime stream.

00:16:40   And you wrote about it.

00:16:42   Not the best, you know, not the best name, but you know, it's the name.

00:16:46   I still don't understand. I, I suggest this a long time ago. Mime mail would have been so much

00:16:54   better in my opinion. I don't know why stream is in the title. I like the Apple lot and use it on

00:17:00   my Mac. Um, but I find the naming to be curious, but they went with what they went with.

00:17:06   It's been two years. So I've been using this. It's been in beta. They've been building it.

00:17:09   Mime stream is a Gmail client for macOS. So I used to use Mailplane, which was basically

00:17:16   a Mac wrapper of the Gmail web interface, which put it in its own app and gave it the right

00:17:22   shortcuts. And let me do sorts of drag and drop and other stuff that integration with the,

00:17:26   with macOS made better than just doing it in a web browser window. But that got discontinued due to

00:17:33   changes, security changes with Google and Gmail. But into the breach steps, Mime stream, which is

00:17:39   written by, it's a team, but the lead guy, uh, used to work at Apple on Notes and Mail. And it feels

00:17:46   very, very familiar, I think as a Mac interface, but also like mail a little bit, but it's really

00:17:51   good. And it is Gmail native because it's Gmail focused. So Gmail is not, does not behave like

00:17:57   IMAP, which is the protocol that people use to check their email. Mostly these days. Um,

00:18:03   it's different. It's a little bit weird. And Mime stream is built to use the metaphor that

00:18:08   Google is using for Gmail rather than sort of mapping it to IMAP. And it's got a bunch of stuff

00:18:15   like you can, you can create filters right in the app. The search is really fast because it's using

00:18:20   the Google Gmail search. It's not doing what mail does, which is, you know, at least a lot of cases,

00:18:26   downloading all the files locally and then indexing them. And it can be really slow or

00:18:32   it can be unreliable. Even when it uses the server, I found that it can be pretty unreliable and slow.

00:18:36   A lot of great things to say about it. It's a really good app. It's a subscription app. So

00:18:43   there's a discount for year one, at least right now. But you know, you do have to pay annually

00:18:47   for it. That is the way of the world today. But for me, it was an instant buy because

00:18:51   this is my email client of choice on the Mac. Their number one priority, according to Neil,

00:18:57   Neil Mime stream is, is iOS. So, you know, they, they're not making any commitments to win,

00:19:04   but their next priority is to ship it. People are asking like, can you support other mail formats

00:19:09   and can you bring it to iOS? And what, what he told me is that iOS is their number one priority

00:19:15   so that you can use the same app on your Mac and on your iOS devices. And then they will,

00:19:20   they obviously are also interested in supporting IMAP. It's a bigger challenge because of what I

00:19:26   said, because IMAP is not Gmail. And so they're going to have to do the reverse of what all those

00:19:32   clients that use IMAP on Gmail and have to figure out how to, how to, you know, deal with the fact

00:19:38   that it's not really IMAP, it's kind of Gmail. Mime stream is going to have to do the reverse,

00:19:41   but they built a really nice, reliable, fast client that I vastly prefer to Apple mail.

00:19:48   And you do too, I think. And so, uh, and you have a Macintosh, this is the app you should be using.

00:19:55   Like I had a great question from a reader who said, why would I use this instead of, um,

00:20:00   instead of, uh, Gmail and web browser? And I said, cause it's an app. I mean, it's,

00:20:03   that's the answer is cause this is a full on written in Swift Mac app that gives you Gmail.

00:20:09   It is essentially what if Google cared so much about the Mac that it wrote its own fully native

00:20:18   custom Gmail client for the Mac as an app, which of course that's not how Google works. They only

00:20:25   have apps on mobile devices because it was more expedient than, than telling people to go to their

00:20:30   website. They certainly don't care about that on the Mac, but Mime stream does and, uh, it's good.

00:20:36   And so now you can, you can buy it and use it. And, uh, and I do recommend it, you know,

00:20:42   you know who you are, if you're somebody who wants a really good email client, uh, for the Mac

00:20:46   and eventually for iOS. If you ask the question of like, well, when they use the website, then like,

00:20:50   this app probably isn't for you. And that's totally fine. Right? Like, I feel like, you know,

00:20:53   already, especially if it's a subscription app, you know, you're going to be like, well,

00:20:58   really this should be something, you know, you already want because you're frustrated with

00:21:02   your email experience because either Apple mail doesn't have all the features you want,

00:21:05   or you don't want to just have all of your email done in a web browser tab. Right. And I think

00:21:11   that's a very good market of people. I would be as much as I want them to do it. I'd be really

00:21:16   surprised if they ever break out of Gmail with this app because they have built this app around

00:21:22   the way Gmail works. Right. So for the experience to be consistent, they would have to

00:21:28   reverse that for IMAP. Right? So like the idea of the categorization that it does automatically,

00:21:34   like they're going to have to work out how to do that. It's possible. Spark does this,

00:21:38   all of that stuff. You have to build it yourself. And that is big and complicated. I hope they do do

00:21:45   it because that would, to me suggest that the app has been successful enough that they're willing to

00:21:49   put the time in, but we'll see. Right. Although I would, I would actually say that maybe the

00:21:55   indication that they have to start working on IMAP is an indication that they need more users.

00:21:59   Right. That's the other way to look at it is if they're incredibly successful with Gmail, I would

00:22:05   feel like it lessens the pressure a little bit, but you're right. It'll always be there. There

00:22:08   are always people who are like, I have three Gmail accounts and an IMAP account, please help me. And

00:22:14   they don't, they can't serve them until they do that. I will also say one of the other really

00:22:18   nice things about MimeStream versus like the web interface is how it handles multiple Gmail

00:22:23   accounts because it's easy to do. You can merge them together into one inbox. You can keep them

00:22:28   separate and they have this new concept of roles basically. So you can have like, if you've got

00:22:33   like three Gmail accounts for business and one for personal, you don't have to switch necessarily

00:22:38   among four. You can create a business set and a personal set, and you can switch between those

00:22:44   two and the business set will accumulate all your business emails and they can still be tagged and

00:22:48   colored of like which one they're from, but it's separate from your personal. You can do that if

00:22:53   you want. It supports focus filters. So you can even do it where when you're in focus mode,

00:22:58   you will pop, you know, and you're like, you're in personal mode. MimeStream will only show your

00:23:03   personal mail. I mean, you set it up however you want, but all of that stuff is in there.

00:23:07   And these are all reasons why, I mean, you're going to count on the fact that MimeStream is

00:23:12   going to support a lot of core macOS features because the whole purpose of the app is to provide

00:23:17   a macOS app experience on Gmail. So they gotta, I mean, that's the secret sauce there. That's the

00:23:23   magic is what can we do that a webpage can't do? That's their entire mission with MimeStream,

00:23:29   but I think it's very good. I respect their focus because like there are two very core questions

00:23:35   that they have decided not to address for version 1.0, right? Like you mentioned is anything other

00:23:40   than Gmail, but especially iOS. We're like, nope, it's what we're doing. I applaud that focus and

00:23:44   like, I really hope it works out for them because this is a great application. Yep. I agree. And

00:23:50   Apple has started to share some details about the WWDC schedule for developers. And there were a

00:23:57   couple of intriguing, um, placeholders. So, well, the things that they have, like, you know, that

00:24:04   developers know about is they can attend a set of tours inside Apple Park. They have some exhibits

00:24:09   and stuff like that, which is really cool. Developers can register for them, but there is a

00:24:13   special evening activity on Monday, which feels probably like a bash, right? Like, I don't know,

00:24:21   unless it's like, uh, Apple design awards. That's already on there too. The design awards is already

00:24:27   on the schedule. So that Monday is like keynote state of the union design awards, and then a

00:24:34   special evening activity. Uh, and then on Tuesday, there are three, two and a half hour sessions that

00:24:42   the developer center, a morning, afternoon, evening. And you have to register for one of these.

00:24:48   This is probably gonna be for trying out the headset, I reckon? They're at the developer center.

00:24:59   It's not a bad guess, right? Right. Not necessarily that, but the idea that you have groups,

00:25:05   especially keeping in mind that the developers are not a very large contingent, right? No. It's not

00:25:10   5,000 developers. It's a small number of developers. So what if they let you sign up for slots on

00:25:16   Tuesday where you are in a relatively small group and they bring them in and there's a, you know,

00:25:21   there's a demonstration and then people are there to try on the headsets one at a time or in groups,

00:25:28   right? Where it's like four at a time and the rest of them do something else and you kind of move

00:25:32   them through. If I were at Apple, that's what I would do, right? You got to have time for your

00:25:36   guest developers to see the headset. And how do you do that? Because it's a one-to-one experience

00:25:41   and you've got to come up with a program that lets you kind of like filter them through.

00:25:46   And it's almost like a Disneyland ride where you need like the waiting time and then the

00:25:51   experience time. So everybody gets 15 minutes experience time. And for the rest of it,

00:25:56   what are they doing? Is they're doing something else and you got to kind of funnel them through.

00:25:59   It'd be interesting to see how they do it. And for the press, it's the same thing. It's like,

00:26:03   how are they going to do that with the press? It's a tough one. I reckon the developer thing

00:26:07   will probably follow something akin to the Mac Pro demonstration thing from what's that 2019.

00:26:13   When they have like a bunch of Mac, like a bunch of people using the Mac Pro showing you how,

00:26:19   like what it could do, right? Like they have that whole kind of like experience thing. But obviously

00:26:24   with, I'm assuming probably a hands-on part or maybe not. Like maybe it would just be like,

00:26:30   here are four Apple employees. They're all doing something and you can watch them do it. And you

00:26:34   can see it on a screen or whatever. We'll find out. But I think that's probably what that's going

00:26:39   to be on Tuesday is the entire day to allow a set of multiple hundreds of people try out or see

00:26:47   something more up close with the headset. Cause like, we spoke about this before, right? Like,

00:26:53   could this be something akin to your original Apple watch experience where like they would

00:26:58   show you it, but you couldn't do it because it was on a loop and that might be the case.

00:27:03   You can look around and stuff, maybe reach out and touch something and all that, but then it just

00:27:08   keeps going, right? A completely guided experience. Certainly if there's anything, it's going to be

00:27:12   something like that. Do you think that that Monday night event is a concert? Yeah. The reason that

00:27:17   I'm inclined to believe that it is, is not just for the developers, right? Think of this from an

00:27:22   Apple perspective. If they're launching WWDC, making all their announcements there, including

00:27:30   the headset, you could argue that that's like a really good opportunity to throw a party. And so

00:27:37   you throw a party for developers and media and VIPs and Apple employees. And they all come to the

00:27:46   inside of the ring. Yep. Maybe. Yep. That's where it's going to be. The rainbow stage. Yep. Special

00:27:52   evening activity. So from Matt Groomer's, Apple says that the special activity is one attendees

00:27:58   quote, "Won't want to miss with food and beverages provided." It's a party. Oh, I mean, come on. Yeah.

00:28:04   Maybe there's a band. Definitely there's a party. Yeah. So yeah. Great. Awesome. Probably not Spinal

00:28:13   Tap. Who knows? I always was picking Spinal Tap. Could be. Maybe this is going. I like Federico's,

00:28:18   I like Federico wondering about Boy Genius because they're in California. That would be,

00:28:23   that would be really awesome. I'd be there if I could. And maybe I will. I'm not saying like,

00:28:29   I can't. I'm saying I will be. I will be there if I'm invited. How about that? I will be there

00:28:33   if I'm invited. Yep. Can't wait. So this episode is our final regular episode before WWDC.

00:28:42   So next week will be the draft, which we are in preparation on trying to narrow down our picks.

00:28:50   And so we'll be making our draft picks. I will be putting my championship on the line for the year.

00:28:56   You're right side up pennant and my downward facing sad pennant. Yes. On the line. I'll be on

00:29:04   the line. So what obviously something of note is as we're recording this, which is the 22nd of May,

00:29:11   final cut and logic are due out for the iPad tomorrow, which is May 23rd.

00:29:17   We will not be talking about these until at least after WWDC at this point. So just as a note,

00:29:26   like we just want, we're not going to talk about it on the draft. I doubt we're going to have time

00:29:30   to talk about it on the WWDC episode. So it's going to be later on, but I'm sure we'll talk

00:29:37   about that in my backyard. Maybe. Summer of fun. Summer of fun. It's coming. But yeah, so we're

00:29:44   also planning on, on revise, uh, reprising the outside podcast that we did last year. You can

00:29:51   listen to my birds. So we want to do again, cause we had such a good time, but that last time

00:29:57   it was the best part of WWDC for me last year. I hope that that won't be the case this year,

00:30:04   but who could tell? Uh, so we've got that going on. And so, uh, yeah, we won't be talking about

00:30:09   anything kind of final cut related until then, but hopefully we'll pick it up as part of the summer

00:30:14   of fun. This episode is brought to you by our friends at ZocDoc. It sucks when you have to go

00:30:23   to a doctor's appointment and you want to be like the center of attention. You're going there. You

00:30:26   want to get yourself taken care of, like you've got something bothering you, but your doctor has

00:30:31   maybe rushed you along and maybe you've waited for hours in the waiting room. And then maybe instead

00:30:37   of then you feeling like you're being listened to intently because they're in a rush. You want to

00:30:41   know, do you want the doctor to feel like they're taking care of you and helping you, but they're

00:30:46   checking the clock cause they're already backed up. This isn't an experience you want. And on ZocDoc,

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00:31:00   take your insurance, are available when you need them and treat almost every condition under the

00:31:04   sun. The waiting room experience when it comes to doctors is like my least favorite thing. I

00:31:10   hate going to the doctor's office, sitting in the waiting room for 20 minutes. And we're already

00:31:16   like, I hate all of that stuff. I love being able to do these things over a video call, over a phone

00:31:21   call, because then you can just take a very short break out of your day. And ZocDoc allows you to do

00:31:27   this really takes the frustration away. And honestly, for me, makes it more likely that

00:31:32   I'm going to speak to a doctor about something that's bothering me rather than putting it off

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00:31:53   start feeling better faster with ZocDoc. So go to ZocDoc.com/upgradefm and download the ZocDoc app

00:32:02   for free. Then find and book a top rated doctor today. Many are available within 24 hours. That's

00:32:08   ZocDoc.com/upgradefm, ZocDoc.com/upgradefm. Our thanks to ZocDoc for their support of this show and

00:32:18   all of Relay FM. Saddle up, partner. It's time for a rumor roundup. Mike, I feel like the sun is low

00:32:27   in the sky and we might be done with some rumor roundups for a little while. Yes. But let's ride

00:32:34   one last time. The Wall Street Journal is repor- Come on. I like it. The Apple executives have banned

00:32:41   the use of chatgpt and other AI utilities from being used for work at the company. This includes

00:32:47   GitHub co-pilot for helping developers with their code issues. There is a concern at Apple that these

00:32:54   tools could be a threat to Apple's secrecy guidelines if people are querying them to aid in

00:32:58   their work. Yeah. Hey, chatgpt, here's my top secret Apple code. Can you help me with it?

00:33:05   You're sending your top secret Apple code to chatgpt. Don't do it. All right. I was thinking,

00:33:10   like, I have got a marketing press release. Can you just check it over for grammar? Right? Like,

00:33:13   these are things that people are doing more and more, right? It actually shows you that there is

00:33:18   going to be a serious market in the future for AI assistant technologies that you can run on a local

00:33:28   private instance, right? Where, you know, keep your secret stuff secret by paying us to install

00:33:36   your thing or whether you can do it yourself. But I think there will be companies that will come to

00:33:41   your place with this. Well, funnily enough, open AI is one of them. Like, open AI is working on this

00:33:48   for Morgan Stanley, like a locked down version of chatgpt. But yes, I think this is what Microsoft

00:33:58   is probably focusing on too a little bit more, right? Like, a lot of the stuff around Office is,

00:34:03   like, we are using your information. Because the problem with something like chatgpt is,

00:34:10   like, you could take, I do not know if GitHub works like this, but the idea is,

00:34:13   you can, there are certain things that you can do, certainly Apple does this, where it is end to end

00:34:19   encrypted. Where, like, you see it because you have got a key, you are logged in. But, like,

00:34:24   it is stored encrypted and that the service cannot see it. The problem with chatgpt is, it has got to

00:34:30   see it, right? It has got to see it. It has to decrypt it. It cannot have it. And if it is running

00:34:35   on somebody else's servers, it could be a leak. People could see what you are typing, what you are

00:34:41   pasting into those documents. So, for that reason, very privacy and secrecy oriented companies,

00:34:48   government agencies, are going to need, if it is truly the case that this AI stuff is going to have

00:34:57   value, productivity value, it has either got to run on device, which, you know, a lot of the stuff

00:35:04   will be able to run on device. Our devices are powerful enough. Or, at the very least, it needs

00:35:08   to be put in a system where it can be self-hosted so that you have some trust that it is not leaving

00:35:14   your company. >> Yep. Very important. On that same kind of topic area, TechCrunch have recognized

00:35:21   that Apple has been on the hunt for more AI talent. There are dozens of job postings available

00:35:27   currently on their careers page looking for generative AI experts. These began posting

00:35:33   at the end of April and they are being consistently added to their over 28

00:35:36   AI job roles in that time period. >> We found the place where Apple is not slowing down hiring.

00:35:43   >> Yep. I was thinking that exact thing, right? They are not freezing in this area because they

00:35:48   need the talent. >> No. They do. They do. Yeah. I mean, it is a sign that they feel

00:35:56   behind or stressed out or they have lost people. Whatever it is, there is something going on there

00:36:02   where Apple definitely needs more. I think Apple, look, Apple clearly is spending a lot of effort on

00:36:10   machine learning and AI. Maybe not in the way that others are. But it is also possible that the AI

00:36:16   stuff has gone in directions that Apple either hasn't anticipated or that Apple doesn't have

00:36:21   the capability to do right now and they need to staff up even further. It is not like they are

00:36:25   doing nothing. I was laughing at a conversation about Apple being perceived as being, you know,

00:36:30   doing nothing and being behind when they have literally built machine learning AI special cores

00:36:36   into their processors for the last few years. They know. But they have also got some blind spots and

00:36:43   have missed some things. Not surprising. Are we surprised that Apple wants to hire more AI?

00:36:49   >> Because they have been doing a lot of stuff in machine learning. But they have been using machine

00:36:54   learning like a scalpel. Very specific things. >> Tim Cook even said it was woven. Like a loom

00:37:04   or something. They are weaving it in. That is nice. But it is very conservative.

00:37:10   >> What they don't have is this mass consumer facing product. That is what they need to work on.

00:37:19   And then we take a shot left turn to go to Mark's power on newsletter where he notes that Apple will

00:37:25   soon be selling the Nike made Ted lasso through the Apple online store. >> There will be QR codes.

00:37:32   It must be they are tired of hearing this in the retail stores. There will be QR codes or something

00:37:37   in the retail store that will say if you would like your Ted lasso scan this code and go to the

00:37:42   online store. That is where you buy your Ted lasso merch. >> This will be the first time clothing has

00:37:46   been sold in the Apple store. >> You have to go to the Apple stores on Apple campuses in order to get

00:37:52   the Apple. I have a six colors Apple rainbow T-shirt. They don't sell those in the regular

00:37:56   retail stores. Only in the special locations. This is going to be a change for them. I think

00:38:02   it is great. I think they should do it. I honestly think they should put it in the retail stores too.

00:38:05   But they probably have done the profit calculations and realized even an overpriced

00:38:10   branded shirt is not as profitable as literally anything else in the Apple store. Fair enough.

00:38:15   Putting it in the online store makes sense. There is no problem with storage. They have the room for

00:38:20   it to show it off. I expect them to do more. This is one of those areas. Julie Alexander and I

00:38:25   talked about this on downstream the other week. Three or four weeks ago. Disney, I don't know if

00:38:33   you noticed it. I don't know if we mentioned it here. Disney added a store tab in the Mandalorian

00:38:40   where you could buy merch. They put it in the Disney+ app. Think about it. Of course Disney did.

00:38:48   This is the company that has you exit through the gift shop. Everything about Disney is about the

00:38:53   big picture experience. It is not like they come in, they watch the Mandalorian and they leave.

00:38:57   It is like no no no. They come in, they watch the Mandalorian and then they buy a baby Yoda.

00:39:01   That is how it works. Then they go to Disneyland and they see a Mandalorian walking around. This is

00:39:06   Disney. Apple is not quite Disney but Apple will leave no stone unturned when it comes to

00:39:14   revenue or at least that seems to be their approach. Why would you not merchandise your

00:39:19   entertainment product now that you have it? I would be surprised if it stops with Ted Lasso.

00:39:25   This is just the easy one. This is the easiest one. It is a good one to test. It is also two years

00:39:33   too late but it is good that it is here. It is literally going to be appearing as the show ends.

00:39:38   Good. Let's get this started. As we assume the show will end.

00:39:44   I think I have a view but I don't know if I have shared it on the show. My theory is that

00:39:49   season four will become a show called Roy Kent. I think it is going to be a Roy Kent spinoff and

00:39:57   Roy takes over the team and Ted goes back and maybe does some cameos every now and then.

00:40:02   But I think that is not a continuum. I have heard the theory that there are going to be

00:40:06   multiple shows and that Ted goes back to America could actually be another show or a continuation

00:40:14   of Ted Lasso. I think one of the undercurrents of Ted Lasso's production is that Jason Sudeikis

00:40:21   got a divorce and has kids that he doesn't see very often because they are in America and he is

00:40:26   in London for long periods of time shooting Ted Lasso and he doesn't want to keep doing that.

00:40:32   He is in charge. It is possible that he is essentially going to exit. It is also possible

00:40:40   that he is going to come back to the states but still get some of that sweet sweet Ted Lasso

00:40:46   money while also allowing his cast and crew who are UK based to stay and continue the franchise

00:40:55   there. We will have to see. We are proceeding under the assumption that Ted Lasso season 3 is

00:41:00   the end of the story. I feel very strongly that since they have not said anything about it since

00:41:06   then, I know there is a writer's strike now, but it feels to me like the end of season 3 of Ted

00:41:12   Lasso is necessary for the announcements. I feel like they are sitting on something.

00:41:19   Matt DeWitt I will say, Savva in the Discord has said,

00:41:25   Ted Lasso coaches an MLS team which is that Disney-like vertical integration.

00:41:30   Right? Because Apple control Major League Soccer now. You know what, forget it. Have Jason Sudeikis

00:41:40   become the actual coach of an MLS team. Let's go 4D chess on this one.

00:41:44   Matt DeWitt I like it. I think it will be interesting to see what

00:41:49   Brett Goldstein does. Roy Kent is a phenomenon. He has also got another Apple TV show with Bill

00:41:55   Lawrence. They are doing Shrinking. I wonder, especially if Jason Sudeikis either stepped away

00:42:00   or went off to do something with Ted Lasso in America, if that would mean that Brett Goldstein

00:42:04   and Bill Lawrence would pick up the reigns of a Roy Kent. We say Ted Lasso and Roy Kent, but these

00:42:13   are ensembles. There are like, what, 15 characters in Ted Lasso? I mean, it's enormous. That's part

00:42:19   of the problem of them trying to land this plane. The episodes are getting to be an hour long each

00:42:25   because they've got five different storylines and they need to service all of these characters.

00:42:28   Anyway, it cracked the Nielsen Streaming Top 10, which is a big deal. That's almost entirely

00:42:40   Netflix stuff. The only Disney stuff on there is Star Wars and Marvel. For Ted Lasso to be there,

00:42:46   Star Trek Picard was the first Paramount thing to ever crack it. It cracked it the last couple

00:42:51   of months. Ted Lasso was there. It is, by all measurements, awards and viewing figures,

00:42:58   Apple's biggest thing. I'm sure, as we've said before, Apple will back up the truck of money,

00:43:03   or perhaps already has backed up multiple trucks of money to various houses in order to continue

00:43:09   with something that's Ted Lasso related. But to pay for that, they're also going to sell Ted

00:43:13   Lasso shirts in the Apple store. So we're going to park the horses for a bit. We're going to come

00:43:22   back to- You don't park horses. Is that what you do? We're going to hitch them. We're going to tie

00:43:28   them up at the hitching post. I wouldn't be surprised if the word parking has some kind of

00:43:35   etymology in horses, but we can leave that for another time. Okay. Well, you're just opening us

00:43:40   up to a world of horse-related follow-up, and as somebody who was injured in a buggy accident as a

00:43:45   child- You don't want it. Who better than me to field those questions about horses? I grope

00:43:51   with horses. I don't know if that's a good idea. We're going to talk about accessibility features.

00:43:56   So in honor of Global Accessibility Awareness Day, Apple has once again, as they have for multiple

00:44:02   years now, previewed some accessibility focused features that will be coming in iOS 17. So they

00:44:09   break these out, give them their own time in the sun, which is a really great idea. There are a

00:44:14   whole selection of features, but Apple focuses on three main ones. The biggest one is something

00:44:20   called Assistive Access, which in a nutshell simplifies and can give you the options to

00:44:27   simplify the entire UI of iOS to aid those with cognitive disabilities. It is a fully customizable

00:44:35   experience. You can have your entire UI just be these huge buttons or big text labels or tables

00:44:42   that you can access from- like, you know, you got all your apps in just a table, there's no home

00:44:46   screen, huge high contrast iconography, and there's a whole set of tools available for a more tailored

00:44:54   experience. Like, so you can put things in grids and rows and stuff. This is like, this feels pretty

00:45:00   massive as like a thing to do. It's like, oh, how about we give you the opportunity to rewrite the

00:45:07   entire operating system? This seems super cool. Yeah. There's live speech, which will allow a

00:45:13   user to type what they want to say to somebody and have it spoken out loud from the phone, either in

00:45:21   person, so do it from the phone speaker, or if you're on a FaceTime call, you can type out what

00:45:25   you want to say and the person will hear it. You can also create a machine learning version of your

00:45:32   own voice using a system called Personal Voice. So you record yourself saying, or you speak to the

00:45:38   phone saying a bunch of things. And then I think it's like over many hours, the phone will go away

00:45:44   and create basically an AI version of your own voice, which you can then use for the live speech

00:45:51   function. This is mainly focused on those who are at risk of losing their voice. So this would give

00:45:57   them the ability to still be their own person when using these features. And also point and speak in

00:46:05   the magnifier app. So you can hold up your camera and using the camera and LIDAR, you can point your

00:46:11   camera at some buttons. The system will read and process the buttons and labels so you can point

00:46:16   with them with your finger and it will be like, that's the start button, that's the stop button.

00:46:20   Wild stuff again. They're just continuing to do some huge things of accessibility here,

00:46:27   which is just so cool to see. - Shelley Brisbane wrote about this at Six Colors,

00:46:31   and that was the one that blew me away as she said, you know, you're standing in front of a

00:46:35   vending machine and you point at the buttons and it says like, which one is Coke and which one is

00:46:38   Pepsi and which one is... And like, you don't think about it, but if you have vision issues,

00:46:43   this feature makes every bit of, like every interface in the world becomes accessible.

00:46:54   - It's like voiceover but for the world, right? - Exactly. And the idea that, you know,

00:47:01   if you can't read the buttons and you're standing in front of a vending machine,

00:47:06   what the hell do you do, right? And the answer is, it's not a problem. Also, I had that thought,

00:47:10   which is, this is also the future of Apple augmented reality, is stuff like this. And I

00:47:22   heard from some people who were like, oh, well, this is interesting because you could put it in

00:47:26   the Apple headset and it's got cameras and it could do that. It's like, you could. And like,

00:47:30   in the long run, I think these features do go together with augmented reality and the fact that

00:47:34   you could wear this around. But there's probably, and I'm just spitballing here, something for down

00:47:40   the road for an Apple product, but like, as long as you can get a camera, which is a challenge

00:47:47   because right now, like AirPods don't have cameras, but as long as you can have a camera,

00:47:52   you should be able to do this now, right? Like if your AirPods had cameras or if you could put on

00:48:01   some glasses or just put a little teeny tiny camera on your glasses, this feature, I know

00:48:08   AirPods don't have the processing power right now to do something like this, but I'm just saying,

00:48:12   if you extrapolate this, you don't need a full on AR headset to make the entire world accessible.

00:48:19   - No, you could put your phone in a lanyard. - You could. I mean, this is what that Humain,

00:48:25   Humain has that demo, that startup where it's got like, we're not gonna tell, it's some weird stuff

00:48:31   going on there, but one idea is that you put your phone in, or this Humain thing, in a pocket,

00:48:35   a shirt pocket, and the camera's facing out, and it does it. But there are ways you could do it,

00:48:41   but the idea is, as long as you've got that processing power and it's in your ears,

00:48:45   that alone is an incredible amount of augmentation of reality for people who need it via

00:48:52   accessibility, but arguably for everybody. But certainly imagine the boon that would be to

00:48:58   somebody with low vision if they could walk around basically as normal, not even holding up a phone

00:49:04   eventually, and being able to, through gestures, decode the entire world around them so that they

00:49:10   could get those inaccessible things to be accessible. It's awesome. This technology is amazing.

00:49:15   - Yeah, so much of it. As you mentioned, Shelley, who wrote about this on Six Colors,

00:49:21   Shelley also has a podcast here on Relay FM called Parallel, where she dives into this in more

00:49:26   detail. So if you want more detail from somebody who actually needs and uses these tools, you can

00:49:30   go and check that out on Relay.fm/parallel. It's episode 82. But I love that they do this stuff,

00:49:38   obviously. I like that they give it this focus now, because if this was part of WWC, the demo

00:49:45   would still be really fascinating, but it would be part of the news for that day, right? That day,

00:49:53   everyone would have that as one of the many articles written. But by doing it this way,

00:49:58   a couple of days before, it gets everyone to actually spend time thinking about it,

00:50:05   focusing on it, like, how would this be useful? Why would you need this? And also, for us,

00:50:11   I see things like that, and I'm like, oh, who in my life could benefit from this in a way that I

00:50:18   might not otherwise think about it, because I'm focusing on 2,000 different things on WWC keynote

00:50:23   day. So super cool. Yeah, it's a good thing that they do it now. We talked about it all this time.

00:50:29   Would we have talked about it all this time if it was amid 800 other announcements? Well,

00:50:34   of course not. Even if we care about the subject, because there are so many other announcements. So

00:50:38   I like how they do it. It does require them to get a little shifty about, you know, first off,

00:50:43   they have to, they can't pull out anything that gives anything away, right? So it's big,

00:50:48   because these are new iOS features that they're announcing in advance of WWDC. They don't say

00:50:54   where they're coming. They don't put it in that frame, but that's what they are. And I know,

00:50:59   I was listening to your podcast with, well, you weren't on it last week, but connected talked

00:51:05   about this. It was my subversive element, John Voorhees, my fellow Jay, who was there with

00:51:12   Federico and Steven. And they were talking about this and they both suggested there's that part

00:51:17   where it's sort of like, oh, and it'll put this information about where you are in the Notes app.

00:51:22   And they all immediately said, that's the journaling app, right? That's not actually

00:51:27   the Notes app. That's the journaling app they haven't mentioned yet. And that's why. And there's

00:51:32   like a shortcut that they're like, there's this shortcut that does this. So it says, shortcuts

00:51:36   adds, remember this, which helps users with cognitive disabilities create a visual diary

00:51:42   in Notes for easy reference and reflection. It's like, you could do that now. Why is that?

00:51:46   And then you start to unravel and you're like, eh, they're probably hiding something there,

00:51:50   right? It's probably more complex. It probably involves that journaling app that we talked about,

00:51:54   but they aren't announcing that right now. Okay. They're just doing accessibility. So

00:51:58   this is, I appreciate that they do it because this is not a zero effort kind of thing for them

00:52:04   to give this stuff the spotlight while they're also having to do the work to hide the secrets

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00:53:56   Ladder for their support of this show and Relay FM. So mentioned this is the last episode that

00:54:04   we'll do before like proper episode that we'll do before WWDCs and I'll give you a room around

00:54:09   up next week. And there have been lots of pieces of information about the headset so I thought we

00:54:15   would because this is the big thing right we're gonna try and tie as much of a bow around it as

00:54:21   possible with some of this stuff as we get ready to head into prime WWDC season and we will start

00:54:29   with an interesting set of reports from Mark Gurman detailing the thoughts and feelings of

00:54:37   executives at Apple on the headset project. Just in general a fascinating set of things. I actually

00:54:45   preferred the version as I tend to in the power on newsletter which just gave more of a breakdown of

00:54:51   basically every executive involved in the project and where their expected stance is which was

00:54:58   intriguing. Again this seems like a lot of information to have gotten and I really wonder

00:55:05   where Mark got this information but it's super fascinating to me. So there is some skepticism

00:55:13   about the headset project. Interestingly Tim Cook is described as having displaying

00:55:20   relative non-involvement in the project which has apparently frustrated staff members.

00:55:26   Yeah let me decode that though. My guess is that frustrated staff members means there are people

00:55:33   who don't like things that happened and wish Tim would have intervened and he didn't. That's my

00:55:40   read on that. I could be wrong but do we expect Tim Cook to be really involved in product development?

00:55:47   I thought that one of the great things about Tim Cook is that he knows that he's not the product

00:55:53   guy and that he's looking at big picture strategy things and looking at the price and looking at the

00:55:58   timing and all of those things but otherwise not being involved. So I could be wrong. Again I'm

00:56:04   just guessing here but my immediate reaction when I saw that was I don't know that feels like sour

00:56:08   grapes from people who didn't get their way and were hoping Tim would override the people who made

00:56:13   the decisions and he didn't because he doesn't want to do that. Because we've heard about like

00:56:18   there were differing approaches that they were going to take right and maybe this is part of the

00:56:25   frustration that people didn't get the approach that they wanted. I'll tell you how I read this

00:56:30   one which is not too dissimilar from you it's just we know that Tim isn't a product person right like

00:56:36   but maybe there are people in Apple who were around for the other big product launches you

00:56:41   know like maybe the iPhone the iPad that kind of stuff right and their hope would be that they

00:56:45   would have a CEO who is involved in a brand new endeavor and maybe that frustrates them and he

00:56:53   just isn't because for as much as we know he kind of never is. Craig Federighi has kept his distance

00:57:01   from the project seeming wary of the effort. John Gruber on Daring Fireball pointed out

00:57:06   this would be quite a task considering he's head of all software for him to do so I don't know what

00:57:11   that means I mean look maybe he and I believe maybe he is skeptical but he can't really keep a

00:57:17   diss like he can't be like oh no forget it right I'm not gonna I'm not gonna do that.

00:57:23   I'm not gonna help you build your fork of iOS that that uses a bunch of stuff that we well

00:57:29   the way this is phrased too it is probably more like Craig Federighi never seemed excited

00:57:40   and did what he needed to do but never went the extra mile and was reluctant to part with him

00:57:47   which I also understand like if this isn't Craig's project and he's really sort of supplying

00:57:52   software to someone else's project and he's concerned about the the stuff he's already

00:57:57   doing that's very hard with iOS and iPadOS and you know and MacOS and all the other operating systems

00:58:03   out there and here's another platform and he's not down into the day the day-to-day of it either

00:58:07   he's trying to view this at a higher level then I could see why he might be like reluctant to dive

00:58:15   too far into this and right so again I have this thought which is like I mean maybe he thinks it's

00:58:22   a stupid idea but like also is this not sort of his job but I do think there's something there

00:58:27   which is sort of like Craig didn't go yeah let's let's I'll give you everything I got and you know

00:58:34   maybe people maybe people resented it on the headset side or maybe people on Craig's side

00:58:40   were like oh I'm so grateful that Craig protected me from the headset people but I don't know I mean

00:58:46   it seems like a very simplistic rendering of what was probably a very complicated balance between

00:58:52   what you offer as a part of the development of this and also like remember the days of the iPhone

00:58:58   the stories about that period of time like you've got the people who are in down deep with the

00:59:02   hardware and they've got software that they're using but they are also doing stuff that they

00:59:06   like at some point the people working on the project really have to just be down in the project

00:59:11   and I view you know unless Craig who knows but like I view that as being Craig Federighi saying

00:59:17   I'm gonna be doing this stuff over here while you guys are doing that over there and is that

00:59:21   is that spite or is that just how it worked out I don't know maybe I think you're right though

00:59:26   right that he's obviously involved but he could just be like doing what needs to be done but he's

00:59:34   not an internal champion of the project which is perfectly fair I think uh Johnny Tarruegi is

00:59:41   concerned that the focus on silicon for these devices could take away some focus from the iPhone

00:59:48   and has also likened the whole idea to something akin to a science project

00:59:52   this one feels a bit more harsh yeah although we also don't know here's the other thing how

01:00:00   long has this project been going on since 2015 the report says right so okay how did Johnny

01:00:07   Tarruegi feel in 2015 how did he feel in 2019 how does he feel today this doesn't say right like

01:00:15   and and we know like in this Mark tries to make some links where he's like and honestly the gains

01:00:22   in the apple chips in the last couple of years have been a little bit less is that a sign that

01:00:27   this is going on it's like I don't know I mean it's really hard to tell like maybe maybe not we

01:00:32   don't know you wouldn't know unless you were in there I know that if I'm Johnny Tarruegi and I'm

01:00:38   looking at a skunkworks project to make a headset and they're telling me I need to do work on this

01:00:44   I would be kind of grumpy because it's like look I've got the crown jewels here with the iPhone

01:00:49   and we're doing this whole apple silicon thing with the mac now and you want me to do this thing

01:00:53   is it even going to ship like there are certainly eras where it's like you want me to spend money

01:00:57   on this science project that you've got going on over here when we're shipping iPhones like that's

01:01:02   actually completely reasonable to me without a time frame we can't really tell

01:01:05   what that really means and so again we're just left with this little kind of like shreds of

01:01:11   gossip that we've got here but I understand that and there is a detail I think in that report which

01:01:17   is that there is a wireless processor that they made because there was a version of this headset

01:01:26   or at some point along the way that was going to be a box it was going to be a little bit more like

01:01:32   a psvr it was going to be a computing box somewhere plugged in and it was where the power was

01:01:40   like the computing power and then it would be transmitting the content wirelessly back and forth

01:01:47   with the headset and at some point they said let's not do that we're going to put all of it on board

01:01:55   and we know that in the vr world that happened right there were a lot of tethered things

01:01:58   and then there was the next generation was like no we're going to take the tether away we're going

01:02:02   to use smartphone processors we're going to put them on the headsets and that way you don't have

01:02:05   cables draping all over you well apparently apple chip designers built the silicon for that box

01:02:12   and then it got killed yeah and would I be grumpy about that if I were johnny srirji absolutely like

01:02:18   you know we you we took our time to build this thing because you said it was important and now

01:02:23   you're not going to do it and we wasted our time so again I get it that was a johnny Ive decision

01:02:30   apparently in 2019 the information reported on this that they wanted to do a processing base

01:02:36   station but johnny went said that they shouldn't do this that it wasn't the right way to go

01:02:41   which I mean we haven't used the headset but I think for what apple is trying to do

01:02:46   it isn't the right way to go like it's not going to push them towards vr glasses if they're leaning

01:02:52   on processing power being off-boarded right because at some point you've got to move that

01:02:57   processing power on board unless everybody's going to have an iphone or something that always has to

01:03:03   be with them and is going to be hot and you know plugged into losing its battery and like this

01:03:09   this would need to happen at some point the headset has been a product that jeff williams

01:03:14   has been a driving force on with the actual product team being led by mike rockwell cook

01:03:21   has leaned on williams to make the product a success which this is akin to the kind of stuff

01:03:27   that we've been hearing for a while right like obviously jeff has been running the apple watch

01:03:32   and now kind of oversees the hardware design team as well dan ricchio is in the mix he is mike

01:03:41   rockwell's boss and has worked exclusively on the headset for the last two years ricchio was

01:03:47   previously the hardware engineering chief and it is believed inside of apple that ricchio is probably

01:03:52   going to retire after this product comes to market interesting very interesting yeah this is the this

01:03:58   is the group it makes sense right jeff williams is sort of like please take this across the finish

01:04:02   line for me rockwell is the is the kind of product lead and now dan ricchio is in there uh also

01:04:10   working on this thing to get it across the finish line because there are obviously different phases

01:04:14   in these devices right and and it's such a huge job to bring any new platform out across the finish

01:04:20   line to use that keep using that metaphor like you have to change and uh what you do is different

01:04:25   because now it's sort of like now we need to produce it in in and mass produce it right like

01:04:30   what is involved with that and what are the costs of that and how are we going to set that up and

01:04:33   all of that is incredibly complicated so i'm not surprised that jeff williams has gotten the the

01:04:39   the tap here to come in and and uh bring it across to completion like uh happening with the apple

01:04:45   watch there's a fun detail in marks reporting that dan ricchio uh his last two products never saw the

01:04:53   light of day there was like a apple tv tv and the car and so like it's for dan ricchio i'd be

01:05:00   surprised if he retires it's like finally but i've been working on products for 10 years and none of

01:05:06   them would come out um but yeah i feel like these days we see john tournes right like in places where

01:05:12   dan ricchio would have been ricchio was in so many of the white room videos for a really really long

01:05:17   time yeah uh greg jaswiak is apparently one of the headset's biggest proponents on the executive team

01:05:24   which is helpful because he's got to sell the thing and apparently frank casanova is is leading

01:05:30   marketing uh presumably working for jaws and i had that that took me back because frank casanova in a

01:05:36   in a previous life was like the quick time guy at apple in like the late 90s still there or back i

01:05:45   think back there i think he left and came back but he's apparently uh for those who remember the 90s

01:05:51   uh mr quick time is now mr headset uh and yeah jaws wiak is is into it that's good it's good

01:05:58   because jaws is going to be out there being like it's amazing so uh mark irman says he's a believer

01:06:05   you'd hope so uh and phil schiller will be in charge of the launch event at wwc and apparently

01:06:13   really pushed for gaming to be a focus uh schiller is noted to have a expensive vr headset racing rig

01:06:22   at home so maybe he wants to replace all of that with his apple headset and this fits with what

01:06:29   we've i think heard before which is what happened after phil ascended to the rooftop seems to be

01:06:35   that phil is in charge of events and that sort of phil's involved in the apple but yeah yeah right

01:06:42   right but like phil phil sort of like not quite retired but reduced and it's sort of like very

01:06:48   some specific things that they have coaxed him to to remain doing to keep him uh attached at apple i

01:06:55   i think that this is one of those cases where phil doesn't have to be there but he he likes it and

01:07:00   they like having him around and so they've they've found this new spot for him but yeah my understanding

01:07:05   is that events are phil's thing yeah and it's like events are his thing and then it also makes sense

01:07:10   from a place of like you need phil like if you need him he's still there he's there yeah because

01:07:18   up on the roof someone with his there isn't anyone right with his level of experience at apple like

01:07:26   from the level that he's at for the time period that he has done it right right yeah so he's he's

01:07:35   like the the longest serving executive yeah he's the institutional memory yeah of apple at this

01:07:41   point yeah uh the whole project as i mentioned earlier began in 2015 the original plan was first

01:07:48   to be on mark on the market in 2020 which obviously didn't happen mark german reports that the original

01:07:53   intended vision of the project was of course a pair of eyeglasses that could be worn all day

01:07:57   all day we were obviously still very far away from that and apple is currently expecting

01:08:02   that we are four years from now away from all like just put the glasses on and go out into the world

01:08:10   it's a pretty long time but to me we spoke about on this show a million times feels like the

01:08:16   earliest time i could imagine like there's so much between this and that i can't see it being four

01:08:24   years even that's i agree it seems like a stretch i think 10 probably but like i don't know what they

01:08:30   think they can do in four years but i'll give you i'll give you end of the decade like 2030 maybe

01:08:37   but four years seems uh a bit much for something like this maybe nine to five mac is reporting on

01:08:44   the cost of the headset i want to read a quote here a report from watson xr details the bill

01:08:50   of materials for apple's upcoming mixed reality headset if the report is correct the components

01:08:55   could cost around 1400 per unit when shipping costs are added it comes to about 1600 the headset

01:09:01   is expected to be equipped with an m2 chip 12 gigabytes of ram 512 gigabytes of storage wi-fi

01:09:07   six and bluetooth 5.3 the most expensive components are the oled displays which are expected to be

01:09:14   280 to 320 each and there will be at least two maybe three who could tell uh on this device so

01:09:23   yeah it's it's going to be expensive right and keep in mind this is this is 1600 per unit in

01:09:31   parts yep in parts and as we know from all the times the bill of materials people

01:09:39   do these stories that get hyped that are like oh that thousand dollar iphone it only cost 128

01:09:46   in parts what a rip-off and you're like well no like they have to assemble it and they had to make

01:09:50   a bunch of those parts and there's the software and there's like there's so much that goes into

01:09:55   development which are obviously going to take a bath on if they've been working on this since

01:09:59   2015 exactly right like that's not going to be paid back by these headsets yeah so when you put

01:10:06   it all together what you get is uh okay 14 or 1600 i think that gives you an idea of the floor

01:10:16   of a product like this like even and i don't think it's 1600 right like i don't think that's it i

01:10:22   think i think that you're looking at uh a 2000 2500 product like out the door really and that's

01:10:30   if they don't which which we've said like i i don't know where their bar is in terms of like

01:10:37   the red zone of like you don't go down here in terms of margin but um even if they go into the

01:10:44   red zone of margin it's going to be an extremely expensive product but on the other side this is

01:10:49   what we've been hearing all along this is an expensive product because it's an expensive

01:10:54   product to make and that's because apple has really approached this as the spare no expense

01:11:01   state of the art best in class this is what vr and ar can be product yeah and then the challenge is

01:11:08   from here they're going to need to iterate and they're going to need to improve things while

01:11:13   also trying to get the price down and all the rumors are that there's a second model stream

01:11:19   that is going to use the same platform but be a lot cheaper and they they have chosen to go

01:11:26   out with the expensive one if you want this to work you've got to blow people away and i think

01:11:30   that's the strategy if i if we're if we are flies on the wall inside apple and by the way apple do

01:11:36   something about these flies why are there flies all over the place um it but if we are flies on

01:11:40   the wall the apple that's got to be the argument right that's got to be the argument is this is a

01:11:44   huge thing for the future we're invested in it we think in the long term this is going to be on

01:11:48   everybody's faces uh in the short term the tech isn't all there yet but if we're going to go out

01:11:53   with something with the tech not all there yet we want it to be the best and define this category

01:11:58   and show what is possible and blow people away so that this category continues to exist and that we

01:12:03   have set the bar in the category and we and probably we have set the bar in a way that will

01:12:08   make it very difficult for anyone else to meet what we've done right like that that's got to be

01:12:12   part of it anyways not only are we saying this is going to be the best experience ever but it's like

01:12:16   who's gonna match it it's meta right no maybe not because look everyone that has wanted to try vr

01:12:27   you know by and large will have gotten an opportunity millions of people around the

01:12:31   world have had their first vr experience where it's like wow you know this is amazing i love

01:12:39   how good this feels this is i'm so immersed right now all that kind of stuff but now apple has to

01:12:44   come in and leapfrog right they have to come in and be like no this is what you can do we'll blow

01:12:50   you away some other way and then they can move forward from there we've made this and i've made

01:12:54   this comparison before the original iphone was inconceivably expensive for what smartphones cost

01:13:01   at the time right like you got smartphones for free your phone was free with your contract or it

01:13:06   was like a couple hundred dollars or whatever it's like no it's an 800 smartphone it's why there's

01:13:11   that clip of steve balmer laughing so much because it was so expensive compared to the competition

01:13:16   and that's where they've got to go again they did it them for a reason because it blew you away and

01:13:21   you wanted one and they need to be able to get people like me like you like mkbhd to say i've

01:13:28   tried this thing and it you cannot believe how good it is right like that's what they need and

01:13:34   that's why you've got to go expensive but now they've got to make sure the software meets it

01:13:38   like that's the thing uh john grubber was questioning on during fireball how on earth is

01:13:44   apple going to fit everything that they need to into wwdc if you've got ios ipad os mac os watch

01:13:50   os and new max is like just the basics and that's letting things go at that point how are you going

01:13:56   to fit it in friend of the show zach knox who puts together the draft scorecards for us went through

01:14:02   and looked at the run times of the previous six uh wwcs pre-covid three years in a row over two

01:14:10   hours since 2020 with the virtual like the video events all under two hours this is going to be two

01:14:16   and a half hours right like there's just no way to do it i don't know i think two hours is always

01:14:22   the goal for them and i think that cutting things out is a lot easier and compressing things i think

01:14:28   it's going to be super high uh compression level yep and let's not forget the keynote is not the

01:14:35   end right the keynote is the we want to show this to the masses and they have this great footnote

01:14:41   section which is the state of the union and then they've got the the rest of the notes which are

01:14:46   the rest of the week right so really you've got some variability in terms of what you can put in

01:14:53   the keynote you can really cut it down and say we've got some amazing things and you blast through

01:14:58   them and you leave a bunch of stuff on the website because it doesn't matter and the developers are

01:15:02   paying attention to state of the union they're paying attention to all the sessions you're trying

01:15:06   to get because if you think of it as a an event for everyone an event for a wider audience there

01:15:14   is a limit to how much information you can dump on them right so you do two and a half hours

01:15:21   i i could make the argument that two and a half hours is just too long and it doesn't matter how

01:15:25   much stuff if you've got that much stuff you have two choices pull things out like don't announce

01:15:30   them which would be like other products or uh move it to the auxiliary keynote which is state

01:15:39   of the union or compress but like nobody wants my argument would be nobody wants to sit through two

01:15:46   and a half hours and that that that among the mainstream and that if you want them to form an

01:15:51   opinion other than this is really boring you don't want it to go more than two hours and on top of

01:15:56   that you undoubtedly have saved the headset for last and the last thing you want is to try

01:16:04   everyone's patience with a traditional keynote video and then at the end when it's almost two

01:16:10   hours give them another half hour of your most important thing right so if i had to guess and

01:16:17   we'll have to do a draft choice about this right i will set the over under and all that but i'm just

01:16:22   saying for the purposes of of of not outside of competition i think they want to hit two hours

01:16:28   it doesn't mean that they will they may end up brutally at 210 or 220 but i think they're going

01:16:34   to try very hard to go to two hours and that would be my argument why is that even if they're it's

01:16:40   full of stuff after two hours people are tired they don't care anymore so so it doesn't matter

01:16:45   it doesn't matter if you've got three hours worth of stuff people are only going to pay attention

01:16:49   to two hours worth of stuff so get it under two hours i think personally they will cut they will

01:16:57   edit they will make sure they've got all the things that only have to be there and it will

01:17:02   still be over two hours i just i just don't see like a way to to add another like os and hardware

01:17:11   like it's that's an hour on its own right like just the headset i feel like but we'll see yeah

01:17:17   but i i think the os releases for the other platforms though can be really short i think

01:17:21   that's what's gonna happen right i think they're gonna be like hey we've got new we've got new

01:17:25   platforms here and in fact the question is will they even do iphone ipad mac os apple tv or will

01:17:31   they say let's talk about our platforms and talk about features across all the platforms because

01:17:37   right that was the thing that we've been talking about the last few years is at what point do they

01:17:40   change the game and talk about ios and mac os and ipad os sort of like interchangeably instead of

01:17:46   doing what they've done the last few years which is like artificially withhold features from one

01:17:50   so they can announce it in the other and say oh yes and also this works on the previous ones that

01:17:54   i that i've already mentioned and the ones i haven't mentioned yet right like they could

01:17:58   structure it differently they could keep it simple it's supposed to be a fairly light year in terms

01:18:03   of all of this so i wonder if they could they could get that down uh more than usual i feel

01:18:09   like the reporting changed from that that was the original one and then you know the last few months

01:18:14   we've had all this other stuff right like here's the journaling app and like the like i think there

01:18:20   is more than was initially expected keep in mind though what's the purpose i would come back to

01:18:27   what's the purpose of this event and the purpose of this event is to have a big stage to do big

01:18:32   ideas right and yes to launch normally it's to launch the new os cycles but like if the purpose

01:18:37   of this event is to launch the headset the new os cycles can can wait right they can wait for state

01:18:42   of the union they can wait for press release and they can wait for the fall when they ship right

01:18:46   like it's not it's not necessary to detail every new feature of your operating system in june in one

01:18:54   time slot it's really not it's nice and they do it but like if you've got the headset there like you

01:19:01   don't you just don't have to you've got all summer and then you're going to have to reintroduce it in

01:19:05   the fall right where they do the iphone event and they explain that all the features of the

01:19:09   new operating system at the iphone event we're all like we know we heard that in june but the rest of

01:19:14   the world doesn't care they forgot or they didn't pay attention because it doesn't matter and

01:19:18   everybody's going to be paying attention to the headset so i can make an argument that the the

01:19:22   other os stuff will be perfunctory because they can get away with it and then all of us nerds will

01:19:26   be like oh god what but what what's on the pages and then we'll be looking at the state of the union

01:19:31   and we'll be watching all the videos and we'll be pouring through all those pages and that's fine

01:19:35   because that's us nerds the rest of the world is going to be headset headset headset headset and

01:19:40   that's kind of the most important part macrumus is reporting that apple has filed trademarks via a

01:19:46   shell company for the expected xros but also xr pro os prus

01:19:53   so look at the url that's in our show notes like if you click the link in the show notes you can

01:20:00   look at the url in the title bar it looks so funny written out like xr p r o os

01:20:11   they're just covering their bases right like xr os is bad enough xr pro os that's just it looks bad

01:20:20   written and is horrible to say so at that point why would you do it right

01:20:24   yeah i think i think this is one of those like legal covering everything but i love that there's

01:20:32   a shell company registering these trademarks this that's apple's thing they go to various

01:20:36   countries and register trademarks and because of international trademark law

01:20:40   you can just deep dive llc has applied for all of these various things in jamaica

01:20:46   and in argentina and in new zealand and like they're just all over the place and that's their

01:20:53   strategy now right is just flood the zone with various names it works if you enjoy this show

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01:22:04   episode with some ask upgrade questions now that apple is getting ready to release their pro apps

01:22:12   final cut pro and logic for the ipad do you think they will release xcode this year at wwdc

01:22:19   i don't i mean it would be great but i don't and the reason i don't is it feels like there's so

01:22:26   much complexity in xcode that is tied to so much that's running on mac os that to bring it all

01:22:34   to ipad i i'm not sure ipad os just has the stuff to do it and we see with playgrounds that what

01:22:41   they've instead been trying to do is create a development environment that's capable of

01:22:47   submitting to the app store but doesn't have all those encumbrances on ipad os at some point

01:22:53   playgrounds can't be called playgrounds at some point playgrounds has to be xcode or something

01:22:57   like it and be a more you know an even richer development environment but if they released

01:23:06   xcode for the ipad i think it would look more like playgrounds i think it would not be full xcode i

01:23:12   think that that's where they're headed with that um i prepare i'm prepared to be surprised but i

01:23:17   just feel like there's so much about xcode that is designed with the knowledge of what the mac is

01:23:23   capable of and mac os it gives them access to as app developers because apple you know apple it

01:23:29   does matter apple can make os changes for its apps that's what they're apparently doing with final cut

01:23:34   and logic but uh there are limits i'd say there are limits to that i feel like maybe it's something

01:23:43   that would need like a we've rethought xcode right and then if they've done that maybe they could do

01:23:51   an ipad version you're right it does feel like there's just maybe too much underlying structure

01:23:58   that you wouldn't be able to get a convincing version of it on ipad os right like you could do it

01:24:08   but it's gonna be missing so much stuff that at that point is it even worth it

01:24:13   is it even worth calling it xcode i think that's the question i mean we'll see what people think

01:24:18   about final cut right like final cut obviously does not have everything um it's clear from the

01:24:23   announcement does not have everything that it does on the mac but they call it the final cut

01:24:27   so this is the question like are you just bringing pain on yourself by saying well this is what we

01:24:31   call xcode on the ipad and it's not xcode and everybody's like snooty about it like this is

01:24:35   next more i'd say more likely that apple is working on a next generation development environment that

01:24:42   will run on the ipad that might run on the mac too uh that is uh you know for the next generation of

01:24:48   of software whether that's based on playgrounds or it's based on something completely different

01:24:52   i think that's more likely than that they would bring what we consider xcode to the ipad i feel

01:24:57   like it's fair to assume that at some point in apple's future the development tools will be

01:25:02   swift and swift ui like that will be all that is i feel like you need to get there yeah i think

01:25:08   that's right certainly certainly if well we've got this legacy version you know the the xcode that

01:25:14   still runs on mac os and you can use that but if you're not using that old stuff we have this new

01:25:19   development environment that you can use something like that right john asks do you think tapbots

01:25:25   will release an ivory-esque client for blue sky um maybe i feel like if it wins or right like it

01:25:38   if may like it feels like yeah why not but there there's already i don't know did you see that

01:25:46   there's a blue sky uh bridge for for mastodon uh yeah there there is a project i'm gonna have to

01:25:53   find it but um there's a bridge that lets you log in in ivory it's sort of designed for ivory

01:26:02   to blue sky as a as a separate account and it works i i did it this weekend it totally works

01:26:10   so i guess the question is what's the opportunity for third-party clients i think i think it makes

01:26:16   sense as long as it doesn't break the metaphors that that ivory has already had the advantage of

01:26:22   of uh them doing it natively instead of using a bridge is that they could map things maybe better

01:26:26   um when i see the people at the icon factory talking about what they're going to do

01:26:30   following uh twitterific uh i this is the kind of thing i think too which is multiple formats

01:26:36   multiple services in one sort of like social media app that that that can connect to open formats

01:26:42   um but yes skybridge is the name of it skybridge.fly.dev and i have used that over the weekend

01:26:51   and i i don't know if it'll keep working i don't know i don't know but uh it totally works

01:26:59   at least this weekend it worked for me uh and i that means i have blue sky in ivory just as

01:27:06   a separate account and it it's very interesting so i think i think you'll see stuff like that

01:27:10   i mean that will probably just become a thing you could do anyway right like that just feels like

01:27:15   part of the blue sky thing yeah in fact i would be i would actually think it would be more that

01:27:22   ivory would get blue sky support than that there would be a separate client for blue sky because

01:27:27   they seem close enough that maybe you should just sort of like have an app that does them instead

01:27:35   of having to because the amount of overhead to build a separate app for that other social network

01:27:40   uh but who knows but it certainly seems very possible because there's also like joe's mentioned

01:27:46   in the live discord too that there's an instagram project right it's called project barcelona is what

01:27:52   they're calling it which is also their attempt to join the text-based decentralized universe

01:27:58   i feel like it's going to be i think i saw somebody tweet about this recently i had a

01:28:04   post about this recently the idea of like in 20 years and why do they call it ivory

01:28:11   right like why is this app called ivory yep well son there was a there was this thing called mass

01:28:20   it all started with this thing called mastodon which yeah exactly uh so yeah i don't know um

01:28:26   and maybe they do change the name over time to make it something else or maybe they just leave

01:28:30   it because it's gotten enough cache and enough foil users that it doesn't matter but that's

01:28:36   yeah i think the beauty of this whether you're the icon factory which has not released something but

01:28:40   has been talking about it or whether your tap bots which has released something and is obviously

01:28:44   thinking about this stuff too is if you've got a bunch of open protocols for text-based twitter-like

01:28:52   things and uh they're similar enough that you could support them all in one app maybe that's

01:28:59   the direction that they'll go maybe not maybe they'll be different enough that they're best

01:29:03   served but i know that i i prefer having not like three different apps that i have to juggle

01:29:09   and also make a wild prediction which is at some point the remnants of twitter will be owned by

01:29:16   somebody who does this i i would not be surprised if at some point twitter ends up just being

01:29:22   another end point for this text-based chat because i have a hard time believing no well like i said i

01:29:29   think i think it's the remnants of twitter yeah when they've when they've been sold off or gone

01:29:33   bankrupt or whatever um what a result that would somebody will find value of the whole thing right

01:29:39   it's just like that's just i mean seems realistic but like that it's just like a wild thing to

01:29:45   consider that it just ends up it ends up becoming one end point for its replacement huh i would say

01:29:56   as well you mentioned icon factory at this point they seem for oppression and their idea of like

01:30:00   we're just not going to jump to mastodon like we're just going to wait out a little bit and

01:30:03   see what happens because we have a you know ideas that are maybe bigger than this and that's what

01:30:07   kind of what's happening already right of like well it was mastodon but now blue sky's here and

01:30:12   now this is here now this is here maybe what we will need eventually is some kind of app closer

01:30:18   to an rss reader in a way which is just like it just pulls in a bunch of sources and can display

01:30:23   those to you and colin asks would you like apple to do a one-time numbering alignment across all

01:30:30   of its product lines and software so that ios 18 is an iphone 18 and paired with watchos 18

01:30:36   or would you go a difference with a different scheme altogether don't forget the a18 processor

01:30:42   which is another teenage number that is out there with uh with apple stuff in it it's very

01:30:49   confusing i like what samsung did when they just went to the calendar year for their for their

01:30:54   products and i think apple should do this i agree i agree it would be much easier if in 2023 what we

01:31:01   got was ios 23 iphone 23 and the a23 processor yeah super simple that would be a lot easier it

01:31:10   could even be dare i say it the m23 processor i know it's big numbers and all of that but if

01:31:17   they're tied to the year or the model year if you whatever but i hate that they're all different

01:31:24   that's what kills me is that they're all on basically annual cycles maybe not the m but the

01:31:28   a series the ios and ipad os numbers and the iphone numbers they're all on annual cycles

01:31:35   and so they're incrementing together but they're at slightly different places in terms of their

01:31:41   numbers i i really would like them to line it all up and and one way to do that would just be to tie

01:31:47   it to the year because you could also talk contextually too then right you wouldn't necessarily

01:31:54   you could just say this year's iphone and then you're just like we know what that means which we

01:31:57   already say anyway and yeah i would love that i think that would be wonderful i don't think

01:32:03   it'll do it but no but it would be nice to dream if you would like to send in your ask upgrade

01:32:11   questions or your feedback or your follow-up go to upgrade feedback.com and you can send them in

01:32:16   there if before next week's episode you would like to read Jason's work go to sixcolors.com you can

01:32:22   also hear his podcast at the incomparable.com and here on relay fm you can listen to my shows here

01:32:28   on relay fm as well and check out my work cortexbrand.com you can find us on mastodon

01:32:34   jason is at j snell on zeppelin.flights you can find me as at i mike on mike.social and you can

01:32:41   also find this show as at upgrade on relay fm.social you can watch video clips of this

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01:32:53   thank you to our members who support us with upgrade plus go to getupgradeplus.com

01:32:57   and support the show thank you to ladder and zockdoc for their support of this week's episode

01:33:04   and most of all thank you for listening we'll be back next week with the wwdc draft until then

01:33:12   say goodbye jason snow goodbye my curly