00:00:08 ◼ ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade episode 459. Today's show is brought to you by Electric,
00:00:21 ◼ ► Hi Mike. Big week this week. I feel like a bit of unexpected news that we're going to be talking
00:00:33 ◼ ► Yes. It's cracking, it's like the, it's going to start breaking off into little pieces,
00:00:43 ◼ ► a log stuck behind the ice? Glacier. Is that what we're saying? It's a glacier. I've decided
00:00:47 ◼ ► it's a glacier, there are logs on the glacier. Anyway, it's going to, there's a, in this
00:01:00 ◼ ► dam, the ice dam is going to burst and it's going to just like... The ice dam? Ice dam,
00:01:21 ◼ ► Valley. Right. It's the name. With a glacier in it. Yeah, at the edge, end of the valley
00:01:26 ◼ ► there's a glacier and it blocks up the river causing the lake, the glacial lake to be there.
00:01:31 ◼ ► But come late May, early June, come WWDC time, everything heats up and then the river flows.
00:01:53 ◼ ► if so, what for?" I used to use keynote to do user group presentations, especially back
00:01:58 ◼ ► in the day where I made them in, made appearances at user groups in person. What happens is,
00:02:08 ◼ ► to Mac user groups all the time and he basically bestowed them upon me. He said, "Talk to Jason,
00:02:23 ◼ ► groups went online and I did keynote presentations at the beginning and then I realized I kind
00:02:35 ◼ ► posture is, they're always like, "Do you have a slide deck?" And I say, "No, I don't. I'm
00:02:42 ◼ ► not interested in that now because I don't think it adds a whole lot. It's a lot of extra
00:02:46 ◼ ► overhead for me and I might as well use that time thinking about my content and sharing
00:02:52 ◼ ► it with them and not having them look at slides that don't say anything anyway." So yeah,
00:02:56 ◼ ► I used to use keynote all the time. I don't anymore but I still have, I know how to use
00:03:16 ◼ ► just like to say at this moment, I want to just extend thanks to all the Upgradians again
00:03:20 ◼ ► who have wholeheartedly embraced upgradefeedback.com. I get so much more high quality follow-up
00:03:31 ◼ ► just want everyone to know I really appreciate it. I read everything. Even if it doesn't
00:03:39 ◼ ► And I don't read anything except what's in the show doc. I should probably rectify that.
00:04:15 ◼ ► No, no, no, no. I can tell you right now that no one's going to make a script to send this
00:04:19 ◼ ► stuff out anywhere. Just log into the system. It's all in there. Yeah. Or don't. I can handle
00:04:38 ◼ ► Pizza follow up. Lots of people, lots of people wrote in to let us know that the pizza place
00:04:49 ◼ ► Yes, it is the pie. It's got like a pie symbol, at least in like a neon sign. It was... It's
00:04:56 ◼ ► funny because all this feedback came in after somebody asked me directly on Mastodon where...
00:05:01 ◼ ► what one I was talking about and I went and I looked it up. It's the pie underground location.
00:05:05 ◼ ► 1320 East 200 South Salt Lake City, Utah. And get the barbecue chicken with Gouda. It's
00:05:17 ◼ ► like dark underground neon sign, very college. I loved it. It was a lot of fun. That was
00:05:25 ◼ ► I won't read this person's feedback in entirety because I'm not sure that I should, but I
00:05:30 ◼ ► heard from somebody who was a previous manager of this exact place and they were very unhappy
00:05:46 ◼ ► I endorsed the pizza there. I have no... I went there once and I had the best pizza I've
00:06:00 ◼ ► don't see the sun. It's also a college place, right? So it was probably unruly college people,
00:06:06 ◼ ► college bros making trouble. But I'm just saying, put smoked gouda on a barbecue chicken
00:06:21 ◼ ► pizza flavor. If you were curious, it's not. Because I made pizza one time at home. I made
00:06:31 ◼ ► two of them. One of them was a cheese pizza, I think, or maybe a pepperoni pizza. And then
00:06:36 ◼ ► the other one was a barbecue chicken pizza at a party at which John Syracuse was present.
00:06:51 ◼ ► iMessages from Federico Vittucci, the pizza segment of Upgrade is horrifying. I'm sorry,
00:07:02 ◼ ► He told me he died. It killed him. The honey killed him. Maybe Federico has a honey allergy.
00:07:20 ◼ ► If anybody out there is an ATP member, there was the frozen FedEx pizza episode. Bizarre.
00:07:33 ◼ ► nub of it, which is John Syracuse loves the pizza that he had when he was a kid. And Casey
00:07:52 ◼ ► Yes. And it is excellent. And Casey Liss did something to me that was one of the best things
00:07:59 ◼ ► that any human has ever done to me. So he bullied me to go to this restaurant. He would
00:08:08 ◼ ► not stop. So I think me and Nadina were there and he was just constantly bullying us. So
00:08:14 ◼ ► we went, we ate there. It was wonderful. And I tell him, this is fantastic. And I asked
00:08:59 ◼ ► really mean is this is the way that they like it and love it and have come to know it. And
00:09:07 ◼ ► Or it's like culturally a certain thing, right? Like pizza is a, seems to be a meal, which
00:09:21 ◼ ► But anyway, the laugh out moment in that episode is when John is describing the Brugers bagels,
00:09:26 ◼ ► I guess, location that he goes to in Massachusetts because they have acceptable bagels. And he
00:09:31 ◼ ► says, they also have stupid things like blueberry. But other than that, and I was listening to
00:09:38 ◼ ► this on a car trip with Lauren and she just laughed out loud when he said the stupid things
00:09:43 ◼ ► like blueberry, because like again, blueberry, not canonical. You look askance at any place
00:09:48 ◼ ► that has a blueberry bagel. It's like blueberry bagels. You know why they make them? Because
00:10:09 ◼ ► Yeah. So you got to put some asterisk if they make bagels you don't like. Yeah, I don't
00:10:14 ◼ ► know. Anyway, what I'm saying is barbecue chicken pizza is good. And I enjoyed the pizza
00:10:27 ◼ ► Claude wrote in to say that they were perusing Trader Joe's new items being added to the
00:10:31 ◼ ► Trader Joe's lineup and they found hot honey. And so they wanted to tell to share that with
00:10:36 ◼ ► Yes. Hot honey is an ingredient that is available if you didn't know. We mentioned it last time.
00:10:48 ◼ ► And I will say it always felt like an unnecessary additional ingredient to me where we would,
00:10:56 ◼ ► Lauren would usually say something like, there's hot honey if you want to put that on there,
00:11:01 ◼ ► but I don't think it's necessary. And I would look at the food and I'd be like, I agree.
00:11:05 ◼ ► This is totally unnecessary. So we still actually have packets of hot honey in our pantry.
00:11:15 ◼ ► This very weekend I had a pepperoni pizza with Nduja, which is a spicy sausage and honey.
00:11:57 ◼ ► A few people wrote in with a version of this. I will read Gaurav's feedback because it was
00:12:07 ◼ ► lot when talking about the earnings last time and the growing sales market for Apple in
00:12:13 ◼ ► India. Gaurav says, "The reason prices are a problem is due to import duties put on electronics
00:12:20 ◼ ► not made in India. An iPhone 14 Pro base model here is priced at what would equate to $1,588
00:12:29 ◼ ► US dollars, which is 50% higher than the standard US sales price. Many of us get our iPhones
00:12:36 ◼ ► via friends and family living abroad for this reason. Previous year non-pro models have
00:12:41 ◼ ► been made in India for a while and have similar or lower prices than in the US. While still
00:12:46 ◼ ► too expensive for the majority of the Indian population, even a small percentage is a decent
00:12:52 ◼ ► So this to me was the biggest reason of like, oh, Apple's making things in India. Yeah,
00:12:59 ◼ ► because they want to sell them. The idea of the diversification is like, well, see, I don't
00:13:06 ◼ ► know if I missed this, but I just always thought it was diversification. But no, this is also
00:13:19 ◼ ► on that stuff brought in from outside Brazil. And they're like, okay, well, maybe we should
00:13:32 ◼ ► that's part of the equation for sure. That's also probably what they tell China, right?
00:13:43 ◼ ► back of like the, like what they're going to likely be doing, I was saying that it seemed
00:13:49 ◼ ► strange to me to like, it still be Foxconn, like still be the same companies you've been
00:14:00 ◼ ► not so much that as it is diversifying the revenue of the company a bit more. So interesting.
00:14:29 ◼ ► about on-device processing is complicated, especially because we don't know exactly what
00:14:34 ◼ ► Apple means by on-device. It could be a gradient from no data collected at all by Apple to
00:14:40 ◼ ► either raw or processed data all the way to collecting some data, like processing on device,
00:14:46 ◼ ► sending it away or sending it back. Because you can only process data on device, but then
00:14:51 ◼ ► upload the results back to Apple servers. And to this, there is a component of Apple whose
00:14:55 ◼ ► business is ad services, not as large as Google for sure. I think Apple should clarify more
00:15:00 ◼ ► clearly. Do you feel like you fully understand, like when Apple say on-device, they mean it
00:15:15 ◼ ► and the machine learning model runs on your device. So it's not sending your data to be
00:15:21 ◼ ► analyzed on Apple server and then the information returned to you. Instead, your data stays
00:15:27 ◼ ► on the device. Now, I agree it could be read as nothing leaves your device, but what's,
00:15:35 ◼ ► what's actually happening is the data is being processed on your device and the results could
00:15:41 ◼ ► potentially be stored in the cloud, right? Or sent to Apple servers. And in some cases,
00:15:47 ◼ ► they may indeed be doing that. It's also possible that they're, you know, they're processing
00:15:52 ◼ ► the data. And then we have another piece of feedback here that's like, it's local processing,
00:16:20 ◼ ► same, but it's also not like this Mac is an island or this iPhone is an island and it's
00:16:29 ◼ ► like, you know, they say Siri is on device, right? But it can't all be like, if you want
00:16:35 ◼ ► the sports, my iPhone doesn't just know what the sports score is. Right. Yeah. It's, it's
00:16:40 ◼ ► you querying data, querying data sources out there, but it's doing it after having processed
00:16:44 ◼ ► your command on device to then go and do that. And this is like, this is what we went into
00:16:50 ◼ ► last time is that there are a lot of different ways to consider on device as a pro or a con.
00:17:06 ◼ ► I honestly, I feel like Apple just needs to be better at disclosing it. I think that generally
00:17:16 ◼ ► pull one over on you when they say that they value privacy. I do genuinely believe that,
00:17:37 ◼ ► is publicly available on the web. Okay. Um, from Apple's ads policy, it says we may use
00:17:54 ◼ ► about last time and it's the thing that Apple does actually do. Like we were wondering like,
00:17:59 ◼ ► you know, do they or could they target ads based on the apps that I use? Yes, they 100%
00:18:09 ◼ ► And do it locally on your device so that your device doesn't say, here are all my apps,
00:18:16 ◼ ► uh, send me an ad. Your device looks at your behavior and says, um, I would like this ad,
00:18:24 ◼ ► please, uh, or an ad in this category, please, and do it that way. So it's sort of like your
00:18:48 ◼ ► Well what they, what they say is it's fundamentally wrong. This is the, goes back to the classic
00:18:52 ◼ ► example, which is like, if it's a first party, it's fine. So Apple considers itself to be
00:19:15 ◼ ► things with a, another party, then it's different, but what's the party, right? Is that, cause
00:19:29 ◼ ► I feel like the app store, knowing about things I have bought on the app store and searches
00:19:34 ◼ ► I have made on the app store and using that data to show me more apps, that feels fine.
00:20:00 ◼ ► that that is giving it explicit approval for Apple to receive the information about what
00:20:06 ◼ ► apps you're using and how long you're using them and things like that. I'm unclear cause
00:20:10 ◼ ► this is, we may also use, I'm unclear whether that is controlled by this, that switch or
00:20:15 ◼ ► whether there is another flow that's happening here, but you're right. This is apps you frequently
00:20:20 ◼ ► open and, and presumably the length of time you spend in apps. Right. Because that's the,
00:20:26 ◼ ► that's the magic formula. And only Apple has access to that because they're the platform
00:20:31 ◼ ► owners so they can see every tap and they can also, um, using, I mean they use it, it's
00:20:44 ◼ ► using and you know, whatever else you're doing. And, and uh, so yeah, this is, this is the,
00:20:50 ◼ ► I think, I think we're not necessarily saying this is wrong. I think what we're saying is
00:20:55 ◼ ► that disclosure is good and also that as a caveat emptor kind of thing, um, just because
00:21:04 ◼ ► it's happening on device doesn't, on device isn't a panacea. On device does not mean you're
00:21:11 ◼ ► not being profiled and watched and your behavioral data is not being used to generate content
00:21:29 ◼ ► an other, like, you know, they've, they've, app tracking transparency to like completely
00:21:48 ◼ ► control the platform and have the app store and have in app purchases and then make the
00:21:53 ◼ ► rules to make everyone use that system. Like, I don't like the playing field that's being
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00:23:53 ◼ ► Saddle on up. It's time for a room around up. Yeehaw. The Wall Street Journal has published
00:23:59 ◼ ► a report of what it is expecting from Apple's upcoming headset. It treads a lot of ground
00:24:06 ◼ ► that we have heard before in general. Like again, but like this stuff can be important.
00:24:11 ◼ ► We're going to talk about a few things that they've specifically reiterated from reporting
00:24:16 ◼ ► from Mark Gurman and others. But in general, the article is like it's going to cost this,
00:24:25 ◼ ► things that they talk about is that while Apple is still planning to announce the headset
00:24:34 ◼ ► to the headset and its operating system, production of the device is still suffering from manufacturing
00:24:39 ◼ ► delays and is now expected to begin in September, which is very late for selling it this year.
00:24:53 ◼ ► thing goes on sale that it might be one of those things that's hard to get for a while.
00:24:58 ◼ ► I think it's going to be very limited numbers, even in the fact that it's already going to
00:25:02 ◼ ► be limited, you know, like it's limited to start. And if they're producing it this late
00:25:06 ◼ ► in the day, it could be even more so. The Wall Street Journal reiterates what Mark Gurman
00:25:13 ◼ ► has been saying that the expectation of the device is to be positioned kind of publicly
00:25:19 ◼ ► around FaceTime, fitness and gaming. So probably Fitness Plus, probably Apple Arcade. And they
00:25:28 ◼ ► have been the core use cases for this iteration of the hardware, like from Apple. And then,
00:25:35 ◼ ► you know, building the whole platform, people can do whatever they want with it. I think
00:25:39 ◼ ► this is, I find this very encouraging, Jason, because if someone said to me, Mike, you have
00:25:52 ◼ ► it around FaceTime, fitness and gaming. Anyone who's had any experience with VR will tell
00:26:01 ◼ ► you that these are the three areas where it's currently most compelling. And I was concerned
00:26:06 ◼ ► that they weren't going to focus on that, like especially around gaming. I'm still intrigued
00:26:14 ◼ ► the best chance of being something that people could conceive of, whether they have or haven't
00:26:19 ◼ ► tried VR before. Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. There's not a lot new in this report at all,
00:26:25 ◼ ► but it is the Wall Street Journal, which funny, I mean, Bloomberg is a very important reputable
00:26:30 ◼ ► asterisk, right? But like generally reputable business reporting organization, but it's
00:26:38 ◼ ► not the Wall Street Journal, right? And so to get the journal involved here, it definitely
00:26:43 ◼ ► carries more weight or to have them essentially reiterate Mark Gurman's reporting also shows
00:26:50 ◼ ► that there's nothing else there. Mark Gurman did it. He nailed it. He got it. And the journal's
00:26:55 ◼ ► like, yup, that's what it is, which is kind of funny to see Mark definitely leading the
00:27:13 ◼ ► this is Apple doing some expectation setting, especially since they talk about at the very
00:27:25 ◼ ► in volume and there are other products coming. And like the early part of the article felt
00:27:41 ◼ ► to set proper expectations for this product in advance of it being announced. And so if
00:27:47 ◼ ► it's not, and we said this about some of Mark Gurman's reporting too, if it's not, it's
00:27:50 ◼ ► doing Apple's job for it anyway, because they need to set expectations that this is not
00:27:55 ◼ ► something that everybody's going to want at first. And it's going to be, you know, mostly
00:28:00 ◼ ► for developers and really, you know, specific kind of use cases, because it's going to cost
00:28:12 ◼ ► Apple expectation setting, because they don't want people to be surprised thinking this
00:28:16 ◼ ► product is going to be the thing they're going to rush out and buy and comparable to other
00:28:26 ◼ ► also is everybody who is going to be covering that event is already going to have the bar
00:28:31 ◼ ► set for them. And so people, it's less likely that people are going to get misled by poorly
00:28:37 ◼ ► informed sources who are like, "I'm really excited to see this. We're all going to rush
00:28:41 ◼ ► out and buy it." And instead, they're going to be like, "Don't get too excited. This isn't
00:28:50 ◼ ► And it's really just the start of something that's bigger." Like that serves Apple a lot
00:28:53 ◼ ► better to not have it be a disappointment because people's expectations were unrealistic
00:29:13 ◼ ► Yes. So they say the capabilities are expected to "far exceed those of competitors offering
00:29:25 ◼ ► Yeah. And the former Oculus guy, Palmer Luckey, who is not my favorite person, but he did
00:29:39 ◼ ► spawned, this was yesterday, it spawned, obviously, thousands of articles that tried to make an
00:29:46 ◼ ► article out of a single tweet with no additional information. I always laugh when I see that
00:29:51 ◼ ► but my point is, that is the other narrative that is forming here now that I see, which
00:29:57 ◼ ► is don't get your hopes up because it's going to be expensive and you're probably not going
00:30:05 ◼ ► there are other versions coming that are going to be more affordable. The Journal says that
00:30:09 ◼ ► the makers of this version are going to build a, they're already working on the next version
00:30:15 ◼ ► of the high-end headset, but that Foxconn is also going to be manufacturing a more affordable
00:30:27 ◼ ► piece which is, but also it's very impressive. Like it is way better than even the high-end
00:30:34 ◼ ► meta headset and that, honestly, that is one of the ways that Apple gets away with this
00:30:44 ◼ ► and again, I think that's useful for Apple to say low volumes, low volumes, not expecting
00:30:48 ◼ ► this to be a hit, it's just a starting point, is the, you know, being able to say, but you
00:31:08 ◼ ► VR and AR are going to be like in the future. The future starts now, now that Apple is here.
00:31:14 ◼ ► Everything before is a prologue. Everybody else is going to have to catch up to Apple's
00:31:24 ◼ ► leeway with the fact that it's expensive and not available for a while and let them sort
00:31:36 ◼ ► Do you think Paul Malucki actually saw it? I don't know. I mean, I think if anybody could
00:31:46 ◼ ► says, but I think it's, I'm fascinated because yeah, and he may be, you know, trolling, right?
00:31:54 ◼ ► But and yet I look at that and I think this is part of what's going on right now. Whether,
00:32:03 ◼ ► part of what's going on right now is we are in the hype cycle about the technology that
00:32:09 ◼ ► Apple is building here. And I was struck by the fact that he tweeted that out at around
00:32:17 ◼ ► the same time that the Wall Street Journal came out with their story that said, "It far
00:32:22 ◼ ► exceeds the capabilities of its competitors." I'm like, okay, well, something is going on
00:32:31 ◼ ► in it or whatever it is, it's all part of this same drift that I'm starting to see now,
00:32:35 ◼ ► which is, you know, like I said, phase two of this is Apple, you know, Apple, Apple getting
00:32:42 ◼ ► by on, but we're changing the world, right? It's yes, it's very expensive right now, but
00:32:47 ◼ ► it's going to be the best. Which it's, I don't know. I don't know if it's real. I don't know
00:32:53 ◼ ► if any of it is real, obviously, right? Cause it doesn't exist yet, but it does feel like
00:33:02 ◼ ► the little, like it's not playing one note, right? There's a few notes out there. There's
00:33:11 ◼ ► the gate, but also watch what we do. It's going to be very impressive. Like that's what's
00:33:20 ◼ ► amuses me the most other than its positioning similar to the Wall Street Journal story is,
00:33:26 ◼ ► I just laugh because I was searching for the Wall Street Journal story and I found a thousand
00:33:31 ◼ ► crappy news articles that crafted an entire narrative around literally one sentence from
00:33:39 ◼ ► Mark Gurman is reporting that Apple has increased internal testing of their M3 chips, even as
00:33:46 ◼ ► they're getting ready to launch more M2 Macs. Once again, Mark, we spoke about how he did
00:33:51 ◼ ► this before. Mark Gurman has discovered this information from Apple having tested these
00:33:57 ◼ ► chips on third party apps as part of the validation testing for these chips. So there have been
00:34:02 ◼ ► people that have used it. Like people have used an M3 Mac or a Mac with M3 chip in them
00:34:11 ◼ ► inside of Apple on a third party app. Those apps, no, because they have logs. So the chip
00:34:31 ◼ ► gigabytes of memory. And it's six high performance cores, six efficiency cores or P and E cores
00:35:04 ◼ ► got compared to the M1, that would mean Apple's next high end MacBook Pro chip could come
00:35:08 ◼ ► up to 14 CPU cores and a whopping 40 graphics cores. By the way, I really enjoy Mark in
00:35:14 ◼ ► power on because he's saying says things like whopping, which I don't think he would put
00:35:19 ◼ ► in an actual like one of the official ones. Yeah, I don't think he'd say whopping. I appreciate
00:35:26 ◼ ► whopping. Continuing speculating even farther, it could mean the M3 Ultra could top out with
00:35:49 ◼ ► all of this in because they have in a very simplified way of saying this more stuff they
00:36:05 ◼ ► more. More cores. I mean, I'm sure that those cores are more advanced cores, right? The CPU
00:36:12 ◼ ► cores and the GPU cores. I'm sure there's other details that are going to be interesting
00:36:36 ◼ ► but they could be more powerful as well. So it's just very interesting. That's true. So
00:36:42 ◼ ► I think this is interesting too, because he's using, you know, some third party developers'
00:36:48 ◼ ► logs who are squawking on this or revealing what these chips are. But also that it's the
00:37:01 ◼ ► of this year, early next year, but like this is the Pro chip, right? This is not the M3
00:37:05 ◼ ► chip. This is the M3 Pro chip. It's different. I would imagine we're going to see the M3
00:37:21 ◼ ► know, that the Pro chips are going to be configured like this. So it's just another little addition
00:37:28 ◼ ► All right, moving on, Apple has lost another key executive in the Apple TV+ division. Pete
00:37:36 ◼ ► Distad has departed the company, quote from Bloomberg. In his current role, Distad oversees
00:37:43 ◼ ► the business and operations side of the Apple TV app and the TV+ streaming service. His
00:37:49 ◼ ► division negotiated deals with Major League Soccer and Major League Baseball and turned
00:37:53 ◼ ► the Apple TV set-top box into a hub for video content, both from inside and outside the
00:38:05 ◼ ► the company and left recently. Stern was Distad's boss and Abbott oversaw all of the cloud services.
00:38:15 ◼ ► that and like the person who oversaw the sports stuff is leaving. That's interesting. But
00:38:26 ◼ ► Abbott, right? So Michael Abbott was in charge of cloud services. He is now joining General
00:38:50 ◼ ► Distad had in half. Jim DiLorenzo will head up a new sports division and they're looking
00:38:55 ◼ ► for a replacement for the TV side of the business. But this is the like business part of TV+.
00:39:10 ◼ ► I don't know. The way I think Mark Gurman reported this in his newsletter was something
00:39:26 ◼ ► Eddy Cue. I don't know. But also I have to be honest, the way this guy's role is described
00:39:36 ◼ ► kind of doesn't make any sense to me because they are going to have this guy, Jim DiLorenzo,
00:40:02 ◼ ► to tell from the outside what it means. Like we don't know enough about the way it's structured
00:40:09 ◼ ► because they're fired. Sometimes people leave Apple because they are bored and want a new
00:40:12 ◼ ► challenge. Sometimes they've got so much money that they just don't need to stay and work
00:40:17 ◼ ► the hours or work the grind. They have family issues. They've got other personal issues.
00:40:21 ◼ ► Who knows? But I was surprised that, you know, yeah, I mean that it's his division negotiated
00:40:28 ◼ ► deals, but like the fact that it's the business and operations side of the TV app and the
00:40:32 ◼ ► TV plus streaming service and the result is going to be, they're just going to put somebody
00:40:40 ◼ ► makes sense. It feels a little bit like they're just not, this guy was a higher level of management
00:40:45 ◼ ► that is leaving and they don't need to replace him because they've got people in place or
00:40:49 ◼ ► they've got at least the one person for sports in place and then they'll find another person
00:40:58 ◼ ► What this feels like to me is that like this dad's been there for long enough potentially
00:41:02 ◼ ► where sports didn't even exist. And so then when I wanted to do sports, they went to this
00:41:08 ◼ ► dad because he was already handling the business and operations side and they brought in Jim
00:41:13 ◼ ► DiLorenzo to do that and now he's just going to report up to Eddie or whoever. Yeah. But
00:41:18 ◼ ► it's like this is the, you know, as the service grows, it's like, well realistically it would
00:41:26 ◼ ► who's already doing it? Right? Like that's almost like a demotion for them. So now they
00:41:30 ◼ ► left. It's like, great. Now we can split this in half and we can have a more logical reporting
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00:43:47 ◼ ► So out of nowhere last Tuesday, Apple announced that both Final Cut Pro and Logic Pro will
00:44:02 ◼ ► creation. These are apps that me and you use. They are apps that me and you especially have
00:44:09 ◼ ► been calling on Apple to release for years. There has been absolutely zero sign of them
00:44:23 ◼ ► But they announced them. Yeah. How about that? How about that? On one level, I want to celebrate
00:44:40 ◼ ► that it's been a long time and they didn't replace it until now and that they're rectifying
00:44:44 ◼ ► This is not quite like that, but it's similar where they announced Pro iPad hardware a very
00:44:55 ◼ ► the new iPad Pro design and they pointed out that it was faster than more than 90% of PC
00:45:05 ◼ ► the beginning of the real narrative of, okay, the iPad is powerful, but what does it do?
00:45:16 ◼ ► of a professional level? I mean, because you could argue, yes, Apple uses Pro to mean lots
00:45:22 ◼ ► of things that aren't used by professionals, but the iPad Pro, it was always sort of like
00:45:26 ◼ ► boasting about how powerful it was and that it really was a professional tool and there
00:45:30 ◼ ► was this impression that Apple really believed in the iPad as the future and yet never committed
00:45:39 ◼ ► And I feel like the ultimate moment, although I also felt like I had already been broken
00:45:59 ◼ ► like literally, I can think of another product you could demo for video editing on the iPad,
00:46:06 ◼ ► but it doesn't exist and it's your own product. Who's that vendor who's failing to support
00:46:15 ◼ ► Yeah. And similarly with like their marketing, right? So much focused around like most of
00:46:24 ◼ ► the video and audio creation tools that Apple made, make, continue to make, weren't available.
00:46:32 ◼ ► And I'm not saying that like, it's the only definition of the platform and I'm not saying
00:46:55 ◼ ► yet clearly with an Apple, it was not a priority because they didn't, they didn't prioritize
00:47:03 ◼ ► these apps. They just didn't, obviously I don't, I do not believe it's been seven years
00:47:08 ◼ ► of hard work to get these apps to exist. Right. I don't believe that. I, I, I'm sorry. They,
00:47:26 ◼ ► and if it mattered truly that much to them, but they're here now or will be here shortly.
00:47:33 ◼ ► And that's, that's great. I mean, they look great. There are some quirks, but they look
00:47:37 ◼ ► great. I just, uh, the, the, this is my long version of a finally, but, but like, yeah,
00:47:43 ◼ ► I mean, finally, like I can, I can applaud, I'll give you a golf clap for this one, but
00:47:47 ◼ ► at the same time, like I'm glad they're here. And I think it does send a message about Apple
00:47:53 ◼ ► feeling positive about what the iPad pro is for, but at the same time, like it's a real
00:47:57 ◼ ► shame that it took until 2023 for final cut pro and logic pro to appear on the iPad should
00:48:06 ◼ ► have been, should have been like, like I said, it should have been 2020 should have been
00:48:10 ◼ ► should really should have been 2018 when they launched that new iPad pro and boasted about
00:48:18 ◼ ► the last five years ish, um, talking about how it's so capable in terms of its hardware,
00:48:28 ◼ ► Talking about like that, that I've probably jumped in the gun a little bit in our conversation,
00:48:32 ◼ ► but I think where that is exemplified for me the most of like the finally, like it took
00:48:37 ◼ ► them so long kind of thing. I think the fact that it has taken so long and final cut pro
00:48:43 ◼ ► isn't as fully featured as logic is in like, what does she say is comparable to the Mac
00:48:51 ◼ ► versions? It seems like that is the frustration for me. So that the key, this is the key thing
00:48:56 ◼ ► that I got from your article, which I didn't see anywhere until you'd written it, which
00:49:07 ◼ ► between the other apparently and it will work with some asterisks like plugins and that
00:49:14 ◼ ► kind of stuff. Right, right. You have to have the plugins on both platforms. Not every plugin
00:49:22 ◼ ► like if you were on a different Mac that didn't have those plugins, the plugins won't be available,
00:49:35 ◼ ► and it's fine, right? Like they go, they are round tripping as they say. And final cut,
00:49:42 ◼ ► you can't, you can't do that. It is very much like the old, you can take a GarageBand file
00:49:52 ◼ ► go back the other direction. It's a one way trip. So you can create your little, I mean,
00:49:57 ◼ ► I don't want to demean it too much, but it has a little bit of a whiff of you can create
00:50:00 ◼ ► your little baby project on the iPad, but once it's on the Mac, once it's graduated to the
00:50:06 ◼ ► Mac, it can't ever go back. It's for starters, not for finishers. And that's unfortunate.
00:50:10 ◼ ► I understand it. Like I was listening to Accidental Tech Podcast and John Sircusa, I found his
00:50:18 ◼ ► analysis a little bit odd because he seemed to be saying things like, why would you leave
00:50:22 ◼ ► that feature out of the iPad version and therefore by create this and compatibility? And I don't
00:50:35 ◼ ► this is not a port of the Mac version of Final Cut Pro, right? My suspicion is that although
00:50:44 ◼ ► to work it, work it on the iPad and that there was certain stuff that they're like, we don't,
00:50:53 ◼ ► they said, well, we're going to ship it now. But regardless of the reason, the fact is,
00:50:59 ◼ ► yeah, there are things that the, there are new features that are in this that presumably
00:51:07 ◼ ► of funny, right? But they're, they're pointing those out. I don't think it's going to be
00:51:14 ◼ ► sync from now. And I think they will try to add all the features that are not currently
00:51:17 ◼ ► on the iPad to the Mac. But it is unfortunate that it's not as fully developed as the logic
00:51:23 ◼ ► Mac and iPad versions are in terms of round tripping. And then the other thing that really
00:51:28 ◼ ► bugs me as somebody who uses Final Cut and doesn't use a lot of the super high-end fancy
00:51:40 ◼ ► why it doesn't do round tripping or is it an excuse? Because like, my projects are really
00:51:45 ◼ ► simple. Why can't they do round tripping? And there's, you know, I don't have an answer
00:51:51 ◼ ► for that, but it bugs me because, so I'm not sure. Maybe they're just not file format compatible
00:51:58 ◼ ► that for whatever reason they just, they can't do that yet. So it's an import. And, you know,
00:52:03 ◼ ► for all I know, this is a, you know, I just don't know. I don't know quite what the rationale
00:52:08 ◼ ► is. Apple isn't really saying, but I do wonder about that because it means that the Final
00:52:13 ◼ ► Cut story is not as clear as the logic story. And yeah, to your point, after all this time,
00:52:36 ◼ ► lesser than the Mac version and lacks a level of compatibility with a one-way import. And
00:52:49 ◼ ► As impressive as it is, like I want to separate here. There's the sort of like comparing it
00:53:07 ◼ ► are two separate issues, but I do think that it's relevant that, that this version just,
00:53:13 ◼ ► I think they've just wanted to release them and get them out there and do it simultaneously.
00:53:19 ◼ ► And the, you know, the Final Cut version just didn't get across the finish line in terms
00:53:25 ◼ ► - But like, this is the point now I was driving towards, which was by leaving it as long as
00:54:07 ◼ ► iPad. They're not all the way there yet, but we're going to keep adding and they're going
00:54:14 ◼ ► or they were silent, nothing above the waterline for five years. And now, and now they put
00:54:21 ◼ ► Again, I don't want to overstate it, but like it is disappointing if you're somebody who
00:54:26 ◼ ► is a Final Cut user who expected to be able to go back and forth, or that was the whole
00:54:30 ◼ ► thing. I mean, for a lot of people, I had this with Logic, right? Which is, I had Logic
00:54:35 ◼ ► on my Mac and Fairlight on my iPad. And the biggest problem with that is once I started
00:54:39 ◼ ► a project on one, I couldn't take it to the other. And there are times, not a lot of times,
00:54:45 ◼ ► usually I stay on one device for the whole process, but there are times when I'm traveling
00:54:54 ◼ ► pick it up on the Mac. And not having the ability to do that is really annoying, right?
00:55:01 ◼ ► That you're locked into this one device. And more than that, once you commit to starting
00:55:06 ◼ ► in one place, you're limiting what your capability is after that. It's like, if I start this
00:55:27 ◼ ► Yeah, you know, but I do go back and ask myself the same question of like realistically how
00:55:33 ◼ ► big of a problem this is. And like realistically, probably not. Right? Like my assumption is
00:55:38 ◼ ► the majority of Final Cut Mac users are going to keep using the Mac version, but now there
00:55:54 ◼ ► Right, right. But not, and it imports into the Mac version so you could start your projects
00:56:00 ◼ ► But realistically, I mean, that's nice, right? Like, but realistically for this thing to
00:56:05 ◼ ► be actually true, both of these, to be true to what they should be, that shouldn't have
00:56:19 ◼ ► Mac, right? Like you should be able to start to finish, have a professional grade project
00:56:29 ◼ ► Sure. I guess the problem is that if you're going to call it Final Cut Pro and it does,
00:56:33 ◼ ► and it can only go one way, that you're, you're putting a barrier in terms of portability.
00:56:40 ◼ ► And one of the ideas here is that it's portability, right? One of the ideas here is I can take
00:56:53 ◼ ► right. The other use case is you're just working on these projects on the iPad and that's where
00:56:58 ◼ ► you start. And maybe that's where you finish and that's fine, right? Like that's great.
00:57:03 ◼ ► But because these are these brand names, I think there's at least some level of expectation
00:57:11 ◼ ► Cut and it's two way flexibility for Logic. And it's just, it's a difference. It's notable.
00:57:15 ◼ ► I've definitely been in those situations with Logic and Ferrite in the past where I've realized
00:57:21 ◼ ► that I'm locking myself into one platform and it's better if you have the freedom. It's
00:57:26 ◼ ► better if you have the flexibility, but what they, but your point also gets at something
00:57:30 ◼ ► that I want to say, which is as far as I can tell, like these aren't apps where it's, you
00:57:36 ◼ ► get started here and then take it to the Mac for the, for the finishing touches and the
00:57:44 ◼ ► be able to be used to their fullest just on the iPad and produce professional level output,
00:57:52 ◼ ► right? Like you should be able to export a project from Final Cut on an iPad and choose
00:57:58 ◼ ► what encoding it does for the output and you know, to a detail and it will transcode it
00:58:04 ◼ ► and save it and like all the stuff that Final Cut does without having, oh well, but the
00:58:09 ◼ ► last mile, you've got to go back to the Mac. That's not the intent here with these apps.
00:58:14 ◼ ► Which I think is coming from a good place, but that is a, there is a missing puzzle piece,
00:58:21 ◼ ► which only on Final Cut. So like we've spoken about that. So we'll park that a second for
00:58:25 ◼ ► Logic. Fantastic. You did it right? Like again, we haven't tried it, but like on the face
00:58:32 ◼ ► of it, you did it. You made a version of Logic for the iPad, which is fully featured it seems
00:58:39 ◼ ► and offers the ability for me to be able to move these files backwards and forwards. Like
00:58:45 ◼ ► that one. Fantastic. I'm really intrigued to see what it would be like to edit a podcast
00:58:57 ◼ ► but we expect so. So I've spent like six or seven years now editing podcasts on Fairite
00:59:17 ◼ ► for Logic. And the reason is Logic's a music app. Fairite is actually made to edit podcasts.
00:59:28 ◼ ► the stuff I'm going to look at when I review this is going to be beyond the, you can use
00:59:34 ◼ ► it with your fingers kind of approach. Because what Apple is basically saying in their marketing
00:59:43 ◼ ► a keyboard and it's got all the keyboard shortcuts. What I didn't hear and what I don't see in
00:59:53 ◼ ► leap in terms of usability on the iPad when I'm using Fairite, which is things like multi-touch
01:00:08 ◼ ► screen to tap, covering the screen with your arm, to tap pause or play. Let me tell you,
01:00:27 ◼ ► put it is they look great. They seem to have a lot of stuff, but I will say in the early
01:00:32 ◼ ► days of pro apps on the iPad, they also looked great and had a lot of stuff. But over time,
01:00:43 ◼ ► that needed to be addressed. And my favorite example is two finger play/pause in Fairite,
01:00:55 ◼ ► what I'm working on in order to touch a thing way up there and then come back and work and
01:01:00 ◼ ► then go back up and do that. You start doing that all the time. It's really annoying. And
01:01:05 ◼ ► the moment where I was like, no, no, you just tap with two fingers and it plays or pauses
01:01:08 ◼ ► and you continue with your work. Like totally unlocked it. Similarly with a pencil, they
01:01:18 ◼ ► out on the screen and it becomes a track where the actual animation of you writing it out
01:01:31 ◼ ► features of pencil are things like gestures, you know, down with the pencil to cut a track
01:01:37 ◼ ► in Fairite or bringing it across to do a mass select or a mass delete. There are things
01:01:43 ◼ ► like that or multi-finger swiping to do a mass select or a mass delete. And all of those
01:01:48 ◼ ► things make my life easier. And Apple didn't show any of them. Doesn't mean they're not
01:01:53 ◼ ► there. I haven't used it yet. But my concern is that what we're going to get with these
01:01:57 ◼ ► apps is the apps that are there functionally and there if you're using basic touch, but
01:02:02 ◼ ► have not learned any of those lessons that all the other apps that are trying to do pro
01:02:07 ◼ ► stuff on the iPad have learned over the last few years in terms of additional usability
01:02:12 ◼ ► and functionality that's enabled by, you know, multi-touch gestures and various pencil gestures.
01:02:19 ◼ ► And the fact that they didn't show you editing either of these things with a pencil, it was
01:02:30 ◼ ► it's all there, right? And they just, it wasn't the focus of their marketing, but the fact
01:02:42 ◼ ► to catch up in terms of a lot of the niceties of using a professional media app on the iPad.
01:02:57 ◼ ► Yeah, you know, I got the two platonic ideal replies when this was announced on Mastodon.
01:03:08 ◼ ► One of them was, "How come it doesn't work with this specific model of iPad? Let's investigate
01:03:17 ◼ ► this one is not compatible. Logic isn't compatible with this one, but it is compatible with that
01:03:22 ◼ ► one," which takes us back to a year ago, and boy, I am not interested in that at all. And
01:03:28 ◼ ► the other one was, "OMG, Apple's doing subscriptions. It's the end of the world." It's fine. Like,
01:03:42 ◼ ► this fitting, but it's a good deal. So Final Cut costs $300. So at $50 a year, six years.
01:03:52 ◼ ► Two hundred dollars, $50 a year, four years for Logic. This is… and yes, they haven't
01:03:59 ◼ ► charged a new fee there for a while, but part of that is because of the App Store, right?
01:04:09 ◼ ► every six years, right? Like, that seems reasonable. $50 a year for a professional application seems
01:04:30 ◼ ► they could work, they could see, first off, they could do a 30-day free trial, which you
01:04:33 ◼ ► can currently do with Apple's Pro apps anyway, but like, let's say you've got a project
01:04:40 ◼ ► in Final Cut." Well, it's $15. It's $15. Whereas before, after the 30-day trial, you're
01:04:58 ◼ ► projects without having to come up with $300 in a lump sum. I think that that's, I mean,
01:05:09 ◼ ► the truth of it. I know that a lot of our listeners maybe can, but a lot of our listeners
01:05:18 ◼ ► a $5 payment for a month is, I think, important. But the larger issue is these are professional
01:05:25 ◼ ► media creation tools. $5 a month or $50 a year is a bargain. I pay $120 a year for Photoshop,
01:05:37 ◼ ► right? If you buy the whole Adobe suite, it is a lot of money every year. These are, they're
01:05:56 ◼ ► to edit video, if they can't afford $50 a month for that, are they a professional who's
01:06:09 ◼ ► make your job happen. It's perfectly reasonable. And I think in this case, as Apple has shown
01:06:19 ◼ ► time. They have been updating Final Cut Pro over the years all the time. I feel like subscription
01:06:27 ◼ ► is actually a better fit than this really awkward, every so often when you least expect
01:06:33 ◼ ► it, we are going to hold your software ransom for $300. Like, what is that? That is, I remember
01:06:47 ◼ ► I just think this is better on all ways. And for people who are like directly against the
01:06:52 ◼ ► idea of subscription, the truth is, unless you are willing to unplug your computer from
01:06:58 ◼ ► software updates and take it off the internet and just use, I'm using a 20-year-old computer
01:07:04 ◼ ► with 20-year-old software and it all works for me. Unless you're that person who's kind
01:07:14 ◼ ► And this is just the nature of things. This is not that disruptive in terms of the business
01:07:21 ◼ ► model. Like I said, $50 a year is four or six years of these products. Is it not reasonable
01:07:30 ◼ ► that every four or six years your key professional tool would ask you for more money? Well, for
01:07:36 ◼ ► two or $300, $400, whatever it is, of course it's reasonable. So now you pay it. And if
01:07:45 ◼ ► you're not using it, don't pay it. And then your subscription lasts. I have run out, if
01:07:55 ◼ ► who say I will never get software on a subscription. I have no patience left for them. I think
01:08:00 ◼ ► it is purely dogmatic. It's purely political. And honestly, I think it's old thinking. I
01:08:07 ◼ ► think it's thinking of software in a way that was never realistic because of updates. This
01:08:13 ◼ ► idea that I'm just going to be a hermit and never update my software. And if you are that
01:08:17 ◼ ► person, I don't know what to tell you. This is better. And the people it serves by lowering
01:08:31 ◼ ► I'll just put it out there. I said this in my story. Absolutely Apple's going to do this
01:08:34 ◼ ► for its Mac Pro apps too. Absolutely. They just need a new revision and they'll add some
01:08:40 ◼ ► stuff. I feel like they're going to sync it up and there'll be a new revision and maybe
01:08:48 ◼ ► want that, I feel like, even if it was like, you know, you paid a little bit more on both,
01:08:54 ◼ ► right? So like it wasn't like $10 a month, but it was like $7, all right, would be cool.
01:09:05 ◼ ► go on what you're saying, one, if you are the type of person who will never get software
01:09:09 ◼ ► on subscription in a certain number of years, you're going to run out of software. Like
01:09:13 ◼ ► this is not going to be any software for you anymore. Like, cause everything, especially
01:09:16 ◼ ► professional tools. And it was always a subscription because you were always paying every so often.
01:09:23 ◼ ► And if you got into the fantasy that like, Oh yeah, but I didn't update my computer for
01:09:26 ◼ ► two years and ha ha, I really showed them. Okay. And then two years pass and you update
01:09:35 ◼ ► think it's, I think it's, it's, it's similar to the whole, like, I want to, I got to buy
01:09:49 ◼ ► sort of thing where it's a frame of mind of like, yeah, but I want the option. Yeah. I'm
01:09:53 ◼ ► a, I'm going to game the system in some way. And it's just, it's, I don't think it's even
01:10:04 ◼ ► is being updated on that every couple of years, we have a big new iteration. We make you charge
01:10:09 ◼ ► for it. It means that there are features that they've held off that you haven't been able
01:10:17 ◼ ► more productive and have more cool stuff coming out more frequently and not held to that idea
01:10:37 ◼ ► also Adobe keeps a library, a catalog of versions. So if you don't want the latest version, I
01:10:51 ◼ ► and I picked an earlier version because they're all there. You know, you want to install Photoshop
01:10:57 ◼ ► 2021. It's like, yeah, okay. It's there. And then you install it. And that keeps people
01:11:07 ◼ ► that in the app store right now, which is a problem. I will grant you. But like, I love
01:11:12 ◼ ► the fact that Photoshop updates just happen when they happen instead of having a monolithic,
01:11:18 ◼ ► like right now with Final Cut on the Mac and Logic on the Mac, they have, Apple has two
01:11:23 ◼ ► choices. They either just release the update with big new features and give it to everybody
01:11:37 ◼ ► don't and they hold it or they deprioritize it because they're like, well, yeah, but what's
01:11:42 ◼ ► the point? Everybody who's using this app has already bought it. In a subscription model,
01:11:47 ◼ ► you're, you actually have to serve the people who are your subscribers and you can do it
01:11:54 ◼ ► whenever you want instead of holding it for an artificial release like so much software
01:11:59 ◼ ► So I'm sure you're going to be reviewing these, at least one of them probably, you know, doing
01:12:06 ◼ ► Probably both. I mean, not from the, I'm not, I can't review them from the perspective of
01:12:10 ◼ ► a professional video editor or a professional audio or musician, right? But I can at least,
01:12:16 ◼ ► I know enough about both of them and use both of them regularly that I should be able to
01:12:28 ◼ ► And so will you be assuming to like take the approach of these of like, or like thinking
01:12:49 ◼ ► No I, I, I think there are two things here, right? There's the meta story about it that
01:12:55 ◼ ► we've already talked about. And then there, how are they as apps, right? And I think those
01:12:59 ◼ ► are separate issues. Like I do think there, there is a story and I kind of already wrote
01:13:04 ◼ ► a bunch of it in my post last week, which is just, what does this mean for the platform?
01:13:19 ◼ ► if they're disappointing or if they're successful or they do interesting things that reflects
01:13:39 ◼ ► I think want to know is can I use this thing? So I do think those are separate issues. And
01:13:48 ◼ ► some of the lessons of the iPad pro experience. You know, you could read Apple's marketing
01:14:07 ◼ ► the nitty gritty of the product. I love and this is phase one, right? I mean, now they're
01:14:12 ◼ ► on the, on the platform. Now they're a subscription model and on the platform. So here we go in
01:14:17 ◼ ► the, in a way, this is the beginning of this process. I'm glad though, that the, that the
01:14:22 ◼ ► platform owner has finally put its stamp on the platform. Um, I guess what's left Xcode,
01:14:30 ◼ ► but uh, but these, these are, are, are going to be here soon. And that is, I, again, with
01:14:37 ◼ ► all the attendant frustration about how we got to here, it is important that the platform
01:14:43 ◼ ► owner has taken its professional level products and put it on its professional level hardware
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01:18:35 ◼ ► Stuart wrote in and asked if XROS is going to be gesture based, does this mean you would
01:18:52 ◼ ► I mean I expect them to behave like Mac OS does today and that there aren't Mac OS updates
01:18:59 ◼ ► for this so when Mac OS supports touch I think you might be able to use it for touch but
01:19:03 ◼ ► in the meantime you're going to be remote controlling a Mac using the Mac input methods,
01:19:10 ◼ ► Yeah I would expect for if you are looking at a Mac screen right which could be a thing
01:19:32 ◼ ► my imagination would be that you would either A use some kind of like hand tracked pointer
01:19:40 ◼ ► right like you're not going to be touching but you would move your finger and click but
01:19:48 ◼ ► say you will be using an actual physical mouse in your hand and clicking it like the pseudo
01:19:59 ◼ ► right like the idea of these iPad apps being able to run on the headset that like you would
01:20:04 ◼ ► be reaching out with your hand and virtually touching interface elements on the iPad apps
01:20:11 ◼ ► but not on the Mac. Does that make sense to you? Like do you does that track of what you
01:20:17 ◼ ► Yeah no I mean bottom line it's it's you'll be able to touch on on operating systems that
01:20:22 ◼ ► support touch you will not on ones that don't like right it's just you will these are virtual
01:20:28 ◼ ► devices that will follow the rules I mean also I don't believe these the headsets going
01:20:45 ◼ ► natively but the Mac it's going to be a screen sharing window anyway but yeah I think iPad
01:20:49 ◼ ► apps will have it will have touch just because they do and maybe and maybe it will be translation
01:20:58 ◼ ► like catalyst like in some way where there'll be a gesture you can do that translates on
01:21:03 ◼ ► the iPad to a touch gesture or something like that I don't know right what that would be
01:21:23 ◼ ► will be a part of the interface at some point because it will be an additional input method
01:21:28 ◼ ► yep a new friend of the show Ramon from last episode wrote in to ask after watching Google's
01:21:38 ◼ ► pixel fold announcement last week I was wondering with smartphones fast evolving into even more
01:21:45 ◼ ► highly capable computers should we stop categorizing them as phones and transition the category
01:21:57 ◼ ► missed about I was wondering if foldables would do it like if if that kind of form factor
01:22:14 ◼ ► folding phones so even though like there is equally folding tablets as they are folding
01:22:20 ◼ ► phones right like it just depends on like which one you think of mentally is the primary
01:22:26 ◼ ► I think there's nothing we could do and like let's realistically the name doesn't matter
01:22:48 ◼ ► as people continue to age that word phones actually just means pocket portable computer
01:23:00 ◼ ► now to basically everyone in the world really like if somebody said to you can you pass
01:23:07 ◼ ► me the phone and there was a cordless telephone and a cell phone next to each other which
01:23:26 ◼ ► that thing like a call no way yeah Mufi asks now that Google has turned on pass keys for
01:23:34 ◼ ► their accounts how long until we get the same for our Apple accounts I don't know this is
01:23:45 ◼ ► either right it's you got to log into it manually anybody who's gotten that that thing that's
01:23:50 ◼ ► like oh you need to enter in your Apple ID password you know oh my god my Apple ID password
01:24:00 ◼ ► it so yeah great I I wonder what all the security ramifications are right like that's that's
01:24:06 ◼ ► the thing is Apple has put so much into the Apple ID the question is like how do you secure
01:24:11 ◼ ► the Apple ID so that you could use something like pass keys to get to everywhere in your
01:24:15 ◼ ► Apple ID and and is Apple comfortable with that because once as we've talked about before
01:24:26 ◼ ► the data and you know right it's it can be scary at the same time imagine how much easier
01:24:32 ◼ ► life would be if you could log into your Apple account entirely using biometric authentication
01:24:38 ◼ ► all the time or most of the time using a passkey I would love that so I just I feel like there's
01:24:43 ◼ ► a complex security issue here that probably requires an understanding of how Apple's Apple
01:24:53 ◼ ► fact that Apple is behind pass keys knows that they are a user experience win and would
01:25:00 ◼ ► like to do them everywhere they could possibly can but it might not be in all the places
01:25:06 ◼ ► that we want it for some good and esoteric security reasons I'm I'm I'm hesitant of past
01:25:27 ◼ ► I am using pass keys for my internet service provider so when we moved I set up a new account
01:25:40 ◼ ► ago fine and I would say so far trying to log in on Safari on my Mac has been complicated
01:25:59 ◼ ► I think this is really the way that this company has implemented the login on their website
01:26:05 ◼ ► has been the biggest issue where like on the iPhone it really understands past keys but
01:26:11 ◼ ► on them on their web version just wants me to put in my password and like it took quite
01:26:17 ◼ ► a lot of digging around to find the way to do the biometric authentication as they were
01:26:22 ◼ ► calling it which also isn't what it is you know what I mean like it's a passkey is it's
01:26:26 ◼ ► on like to refer to it with biometric authentication made it complicated but I did it for me it's
01:26:32 ◼ ► just one of those things where I kind of want to see how it shakes out like I believe in
01:26:37 ◼ ► what they're attempting to achieve but I know this is going to cause so many problems for
01:26:42 ◼ ► so many things just because of the practicalities of making this move it's like in the article
01:26:48 ◼ ► that Dan wrote in six colors about this Google thing he made a great point of like what about
01:26:58 ◼ ► you have no choice you know like for example me and Jason have some shared passwords right
01:27:03 ◼ ► like yep there is for all of our social media accounts for our hosting of the show like
01:27:19 ◼ ► sharing a passkey I don't even know if it's possible right now but it's complicated even
01:27:25 ◼ ► if it would be so like it's early days yet right and I think that goes in if you're Apple
01:27:30 ◼ ► and you're talking about the gold standard the Apple ID the thing that unlocks everything
01:27:36 ◼ ► you want to get it right I wouldn't you know be surprised if they do something to interconnect
01:27:51 ◼ ► take some time yeah I will say that is one of the one of the the passwords I would change
01:28:03 ◼ ► last right would be my Apple ID one I'm gonna have to that I'm gonna go very far before
01:28:26 ◼ ► a question of your own for a future episode of the show you can go to upgrade feedback.com
01:28:43 ◼ ► go to six colors.com you can also hear Jason's podcasts at the incomparable.com and of course
01:28:53 ◼ ► over at cortexbrand.com you can find us on Mastodon Jason is at J Snell on zeppelin.flights
01:28:59 ◼ ► I am at i Mike on Mike.social and you can find the show as at upgrade on relay FM.social
01:29:06 ◼ ► you can watch video clips of the show posted to Mastodon but also on Tik Tok and Instagram