00:00:02 ◼ ► It has, man! I don't... I'm not sure. I don't remember the last time it was on your show.
00:00:37 ◼ ► It pops up on the Mastodon and Twitter and wherever people make suggestions for who should
00:00:47 ◼ ► I will say, I mean, this is not the Rise of Skywalker episode, which may or may not ever
00:00:55 ◼ ► exist. I will say this, I was so unhappy with that movie that I've literally only seen it once,
00:01:00 ◼ ► which I believe... I'm pretty sure I went to see it opening night. I know it was in the theater
00:01:36 ◼ ► Right. There's rules in a fantasy setting. They're not realistic rules, but you create rules and
00:01:58 ◼ ► is that I've got my live show coming up, I guess, not a week from today. It'll be a week from today
00:02:12 ◼ ► So get that out of the way. Everybody listening, if you haven't seen me announce it on Daring
00:02:17 ◼ ► Fireball, tickets are available. It'll be Wednesday, June 7th, back at the very lovely,
00:02:24 ◼ ► I mean that no sarcasm, it's a wonderful, wonderful theater in California theater in San Jose, the big
00:02:29 ◼ ► 1100 seat old theater in San Jose on Wednesday of WWDC week at five o'clock. Tickets are available,
00:02:37 ◼ ► selling briskly, probably going to be sold out soon, but probably not by the time the show airs,
00:02:43 ◼ ► so anybody who wants tickets, go there and get them. But going down memory lane, you were
00:02:50 ◼ ► my guest on the live episode from WWDC 10 years ago, that's 2013, which was the year the
00:03:00 ◼ ► Mac Pro, what do we call that Mac Pro? Colloquially known the trash can. That's a shame. I really,
00:03:09 ◼ ► I don't like calling it. I knew that that's what we were going to wind up calling it, but yeah.
00:03:14 ◼ ► I mean, it looks like a trash can, which is fine. So I think, yes, so we were on stage there. We had
00:03:22 ◼ ► Scott Simpson and Amy and Paul Kaposas was up there too. It was a good gang. This was prior to
00:03:31 ◼ ► Well, it shows how time has changed. Not that I wouldn't love to have you on stage with me,
00:03:46 ◼ ► but Jason was saying just him and Moltz on stage. I would love that. That would be great.
00:03:50 ◼ ► Look, you're my favorite people. But whoever, if you ever run dry for like execs at Apple execs
00:03:56 ◼ ► or anything or anybody interesting, and you end up with me and Moltz on stage, there is going to be,
00:04:01 ◼ ► somehow, tomatoes are going to like manifest themselves and just get whipped at the stage.
00:04:10 ◼ ► I'm trying to think. I think that the first one where I had an Apple exec was 2015. I think that's
00:04:20 ◼ ► I think that's the I shit you not Phil Schiller, where it went from live shows in a mezzanine. I
00:04:33 ◼ ► No, it was 100 or 150 downstairs in front of the stage. But the reason that the place was
00:04:38 ◼ ► called mezzanine is it had a mezzanine. And it was like, some of the seats were obstructed,
00:05:09 ◼ ► But yeah, no, that's great. And again, I heard you talking to Jason that WWDC is not bringing
00:05:15 ◼ ► the same number, sheer number of people, Sarah, from like 5,000 about when it was up in SF,
00:05:21 ◼ ► and the past couple of years being... I don't know how many. Apple's got 500, maybe a few
00:05:26 ◼ ► hundred in? I'm not sure. But yeah, I'm confident you're going to sell out. I don't know how the
00:05:33 ◼ ► I'm looking at the history of it. So 2013 was you and Scott. I forget who else. And then the
00:05:39 ◼ ► next year was the ATP gang. I had Marco, John Siracusa, and what's the third guy's name?
00:06:05 ◼ ► But anyway, we did 2013. You were on stage, and the big news of the week at that WWDC was the
00:06:13 ◼ ► then brand new Mac Pro, which was doomed in some ways. But I think it's an interesting place to
00:06:21 ◼ ► start because while everybody is headset, headset, headset, headset for next week, and we'll get to
00:06:27 ◼ ► that. I mean, it's unavoidable at this point, but I think we're going to get a Mac Pro announcement
00:06:34 ◼ ► too. I don't know if it's going to go on sale because the last time when they did the last
00:06:42 ◼ ► Intel one, the one where they brought back the big case and the $1,000 wheels that you could put it
00:06:48 ◼ ► on. The Siracusa special. Right. That was WWDC 2019, the last pre-pandemic WWDC. They introduced
00:06:56 ◼ ► that and it wasn't on sale yet. It was I don't think it went on sale till like late November,
00:07:01 ◼ ► December. They were like later this year, this is coming, but here's what it's going to look like.
00:07:05 ◼ ► We've got one that everybody here at WWDC can come and look at, but not touch. They were like,
00:07:13 ◼ ► don't touch it. Remember? Yeah, they had like an actual case. It was just like, no, they didn't put
00:07:19 ◼ ► it in the glass case like the iPhone years and years ago. But they they did have a very big
00:07:25 ◼ ► security guard there all at all times to make sure nobody touched it. Also, that was where they
00:07:30 ◼ ► debuted the, what do they call it? The studio display XDR or just pro display XDR. Studio
00:07:38 ◼ ► display is the consumer price thing. And yeah, it's the expensive one. So I can see love. I know
00:07:43 ◼ ► you love yours too. Like I'm, I'm, Oh, well, I don't have the XDR. I have the studio display.
00:07:47 ◼ ► No, that's what I mean. Yeah. Yeah. I got the, yeah. I think you've got the nanotech. What are
00:07:51 ◼ ► they called? The nanotexture display. I have to do a year with it review because I love it so much.
00:07:58 ◼ ► And the nanotexture is like magic in my, at certain times of the year, otherwise unusable
00:08:07 ◼ ► desk location in my office. Like until I got this display, no, it's, I'm very serious. And I know
00:08:13 ◼ ► which time it's April and October, right? I know it's April. Cause I just got through it. May,
00:08:20 ◼ ► June, July, August, September, October. Yeah. Six months. So every six months, April and October,
00:08:27 ◼ ► the sun comes through my office in the middle of the afternoon, which is my prime working hours.
00:08:32 ◼ ► And like Raiders of the lost Ark, like, like, like Indiana Jones is down there with the headpiece to
00:08:40 ◼ ► the staff of raw on top of the stick and the sun comes through and hits it and shows the location
00:08:47 ◼ ► of the map room. And just that somehow just follows your cursor. That is for like two weeks
00:08:54 ◼ ► in April and two weeks in October, that is how the sun hits my display. And prior to owning the studio
00:09:00 ◼ ► display XDR, I would just work in the kitchen for two hours. I would just take my laptop and
00:09:06 ◼ ► do something else. And with the nanotexture display, I literally don't even notice at times
00:09:13 ◼ ► until it's like my neck gets hot because the sun's hitting my neck. And I'm like, holy shit,
00:09:19 ◼ ► is that how bright the sun is? And I hold my hand up and I, it, it, that is how much the nanotexture
00:09:25 ◼ ► lets me work. I don't even notice that the sun is hitting the screen. Anyway, that's my
00:09:30 ◼ ► mini review of that. Here's the thing I teed you up for that. Cause we were over at your place
00:09:35 ◼ ► around Christmas time and you showed me your office and you were, you did this basically
00:09:40 ◼ ► not word for word, but you did this little skit about like, yeah, the sun hits it and you show
00:09:44 ◼ ► me the window where it comes in from. Oh, the nanotexture. I, I, yeah, I love mine. I think
00:09:50 ◼ ► it's great. Like the pro thing I think is fundamentally the pro display is a pro display.
00:10:05 ◼ ► But I do think that it's, there's diminishing returns for anybody beyond the studios display,
00:10:09 ◼ ► which I find really great. The camera is even fine. I don't really have a major complaint.
00:10:18 ◼ ► for the screen. So yeah. And the speakers are great too. I mean, I know they're not great,
00:10:24 ◼ ► great, but they're better than anything I've had on my desktop. I think since I had those,
00:10:30 ◼ ► remember the sound sticks from yeah. Wait, were they Bose Bose sound sticks? Yeah. It's like that
00:10:36 ◼ ► little alien looking pod for the base thing and like the transparent plastic. Yeah. So at least
00:10:41 ◼ ► since then, which was a very long time ago, and those were actually Amy's and she took them back
00:10:45 ◼ ► from me at some point, but it's the best sound I've had at my desktop since then too. Anyway.
00:10:50 ◼ ► Oh, also I will just add, I'll spoil my whole review. The other big complaint people had is
00:10:55 ◼ ► because the studio display is in fact an iOS device that occasionally gets software updates
00:11:02 ◼ ► and requires a weird reboot cycle. And a year ago when it first came out, like every six weeks
00:11:09 ◼ ► required like a power cycling and it had no power button. And therefore you had to like climb under
00:11:14 ◼ ► my desk and unplug it. But I will say since then, well, what happened the second time I had to climb
00:11:23 ◼ ► under my desk and do it, I was like three strikes in your out. So after two strikes, I bought a $40,
00:11:29 ◼ ► those things are all like 40 bucks. I bought like a $40 home kit plug to put in the plug under my
00:11:36 ◼ ► desk where it goes so that the next time it craps out, instead of climbing into the desk, I could
00:11:43 ◼ ► just go to the home app and restart it with a tap on my finger. I mean, that's how easy, that's how
00:11:49 ◼ ► much I don't like getting down on my knees under the desk. Even though it's not dirty, it's clean.
00:11:56 ◼ ► Still a pain in the ass. Yeah. I'm too good for that. So I'll spend 40 bucks. And Murphy's Law.
00:12:01 ◼ ► On the famously reliable home kit stuff, which is actually, I use it all the time, but like,
00:12:05 ◼ ► I know whatever it fakes out at times. It's hilarious how often we use technology to fix
00:12:10 ◼ ► hitting this adulation of like more and more requirements in order to just turn off the plug.
00:12:17 ◼ ► I did that though. I did that though last summer. I spent the 40 bucks to get the plug.
00:12:29 ◼ ► the studio display, every time it crapped out, it stopped crapping out. There was at least one
00:12:35 ◼ ► firmware update since then, which came with a system update to macOS and then macOS updates
00:12:42 ◼ ► and says, there's an update for your studio display. Yes. Don't touch it. Let it go. But
00:12:47 ◼ ► ever since then, it's been a hundred percent rock solid. It was like the, what happened a year ago
00:12:53 ◼ ► was like the audio would crap out. It would like, it would stop playing audio. And the only way to
00:12:57 ◼ ► fix it was the power cycle. It hasn't happened since. So that complaint, Hey, I wish, I wish
00:13:02 ◼ ► my display were just a dumb display. I don't want to have to restart it every couple of weeks, blah,
00:13:07 ◼ ► blah, blah. I don't have to do that anymore. At this point, I would say for the last like nine,
00:13:13 ◼ ► 10 months, it's effectively been indistinguishable from a dumb display that just always works.
00:13:19 ◼ ► So, yeah, I believe that I have had no problems with it. I think I might've had to unplug it once,
00:13:25 ◼ ► but I can't remember why that was. I don't think it was because it was just jammed up. Like the
00:13:30 ◼ ► audio was working fine. Everything, everything seemed to be going okay with me. I sort of pushed
00:13:34 ◼ ► back against that notion that I would just wish it was a dumb display. I mean, so the world monitor
00:13:40 ◼ ► basically just means I'm just monitoring a video feed. I feel like in the best case, you're getting
00:13:44 ◼ ► like a raw tap into what's happening. Displays these days are not monitored. Like there's none
00:13:49 ◼ ► of that. And I think it's a little foolhardy to just say, Hey, just put the bits on the screen.
00:13:54 ◼ ► Cause I think it sort of misses a lot of the work that's done. It's just for color correction and
00:14:00 ◼ ► all kinds of other stuff. You've got a whole bunch of ports back there. Something has to run those
00:14:04 ◼ ► ports. I think because people decided, or it is an iOS derivative, therefore it's more complicated.
00:14:12 ◼ ► That's probably true. And it may have more surface area to break kind of thing, but ultimately
00:14:17 ◼ ► the flexibility gives it all kinds of capabilities that were not, that you would have to get. Like
00:14:25 ◼ ► if it was like an LG display, they're going to, they write software too. It's just janky and
00:14:29 ◼ ► crappy. And you don't think of it like a little computer. It is a little computer though. It is
00:14:33 ◼ ► just a worse little computer. So I don't really know what to tell you these days. Everything has
00:14:37 ◼ ► like a little piece of software in it, which is kind of the current theme that you as you,
00:14:40 ◼ ► you'd come to that all the time. I just think, you know, and I think that the team behind it has done
00:14:45 ◼ ► what you want them to do is sort of look, it's such a smaller surface area of what it does. Then
00:14:53 ◼ ► when iOS is running on an actual iPhone or iPad, or even an Apple TV, the user could be doing
00:14:59 ◼ ► anything. Whereas the sort of iOS as firmware running on something like the studio display,
00:15:07 ◼ ► it only has to do two things or three things, right? It shows pixels on the display and does
00:15:14 ◼ ► color. I'm not saying new scenes are easy, but you know, displays pixels, manages brightness,
00:15:20 ◼ ► does color correction, plays sound through the speakers. And it runs the camera when the camera's
00:15:26 ◼ ► on, or I guess the microphone, right? Microphone, camera, display, sound, power management,
00:15:32 ◼ ► but those, it's a known surface area and it should be very stable. And I would say from about two
00:15:39 ◼ ► months after it started shipping, it's been rock solid stable, which is exactly what you want. So
00:15:44 ◼ ► hats off to the studio display team, a fantastic product that I'm happy to endorse. Anyway,
00:15:52 ◼ ► Mac Pro. Yeah, but this ties into the mic. It cut. Yeah. Well, I remember sitting on the stage
00:15:58 ◼ ► and being really excited about it and I still am. I still think that I'm a bit of a weirdo though.
00:16:03 ◼ ► I like the Mac cube. I like the Mac. I did too. I didn't own one, but it was only cause I couldn't
00:16:08 ◼ ► afford it at the time. I love the Mac. Yeah. The original MacBook Air was like really kind of a
00:16:14 ◼ ► crazy expensive, but you could spend even more money and get the SSD in it, which at the time
00:16:18 ◼ ► was like mind boggling. I found the Mac Pro 2013 to be one of those cool products that had like
00:16:25 ◼ ► a real vision about how things are going to work and what they're going to double down on. They've
00:16:30 ◼ ► got one board full of like pretty high end Intel chips at the time, two boards full of like pretty
00:16:35 ◼ ► high end AMD chips, sorry, ATI chips. And it was cool. And it had a fan in the middle. I love
00:16:42 ◼ ► turning it around and having the lights light up on the back. It just like the, the plugs, the
00:16:48 ◼ ► sockets glow, which is cool, dumb, but a fun little neat trick. I like the way you can slide
00:16:54 ◼ ► off the top of the case. I like the concept of the computer. I like the vision that they had
00:17:00 ◼ ► for how it would scale and go forward. And then it didn't, and it didn't for any number of reasons,
00:17:07 ◼ ► like the Intel chips were hot, getting the new GPUs was hot, like fitting more and more next level or
00:17:13 ◼ ► next generation stuff into that casing proved to be like famously the thermal corner. I admire them
00:17:20 ◼ ► for trying that computer. I think that was very cool. I think that was the one that Schiller said,
00:17:24 ◼ ► you can't innovate anymore my ass. I think it was. Yeah. Yeah. I I'm, I'm with him. I think that's,
00:17:30 ◼ ► that's bang on great work. I think the 2019 Mac pro is amazing and incredible, but hardly is
00:17:45 ◼ ► Right. I think that there's sort of a very, at least from 2013 onward, but probably going back
00:18:01 ◼ ► Syria, the one that the one that Syracuse, so you wound up using for like 40 years. Right. Yeah.
00:18:06 ◼ ► Which was also a big case, right? A big sort of traditional case prior to that, prior to 2008,
00:18:16 ◼ ► the compute the importance of the Mac to Apple and the overall Mac market was such that it was still
00:18:25 ◼ ► the, the tailwinds of like the eighties and nineties where pro computers were like half
00:18:37 ◼ ► of Apple sales, right? Just the whole era before laptops taking over the industry where desktops
00:18:49 ◼ ► you'd spend a couple extra thousand dollars to get a laptop with comparable specs to the same,
00:18:55 ◼ ► what you could get for the desktop with the same specs. And so the desktop was the main computers,
00:19:02 ◼ ► every company sold, including Apple. And some of them were pro and some of them weren't.
00:19:11 ◼ ► just once the performance. Yeah. More convenient and the performance was there and the price came
00:19:17 ◼ ► down to the same consumer level prices. I mean, for now, one more applications were on the web now,
00:19:24 ◼ ► right? So you didn't need quite as much local power to do your outlook. You start like your
00:19:29 ◼ ► calendars, your Gmail, like that kind of stuff. I mean, honestly, it's like, and putting aside
00:19:34 ◼ ► all the thermal advantages and performance at price or performance per watt advantages of Apple
00:19:39 ◼ ► Silicon, even on the PC side with Intel, I mean, it's been decades now where it's no big deal to
00:19:46 ◼ ► put a fine or even very nice PC into a laptop. Whereas in the 90s, that was incredibly expensive.
00:19:56 ◼ ► You remember all those ads for the bunny suits and the Pentium with a snail, like a snail with
00:20:03 ◼ ► a Pentium on the back when Apple was really shit talking Intel all the time. I did. They can't
00:20:10 ◼ ► enchant, shouldn't do it now, but like I kind of missed the shit talking version of Apple,
00:20:14 ◼ ► which was pretty funny with the power PC stuff, despite kind of getting creamed in a lot of ways.
00:20:19 ◼ ► Like the G5 was pretty cool, could not fit in a laptop, which just wasn't going to happen.
00:20:24 ◼ ► Right. Never. We are right. And that was really what prompted the switch when Jobs announced the
00:20:29 ◼ ► switch to Intel. It was basically, look, I told you two years ago, we were going to put the G5 in
00:20:34 ◼ ► a laptop and we couldn't do it. And therefore we're switching. Here's why. But I think that
00:20:39 ◼ ► the mismatch that's happened post 2008, starting with the trashcan in 2013, is that there's a
00:20:47 ◼ ► sizable segment of pro Mac users who just want the most performance they can get for whatever
00:20:54 ◼ ► the reason of what they're doing, whether they're aerospace engineers doing complex models of
00:20:59 ◼ ► wing designs for new airplanes or developers with really complex, mind-bendingly complex
00:21:14 ◼ ► a totally clean build, really long build cycle. There's precious few of those. I mean, there's
00:21:19 ◼ ► Apple's pro stuff. There's Photoshop, I suppose, but there's big apps out there, but there's not
00:21:27 ◼ ► that many people who really need to crunch that much stuff. The Swift compiler, people love the
00:21:32 ◼ ► Swift language. The Swift compiler though is relatively slow compared to most other compilers.
00:21:37 ◼ ► And it's just a trade off that you get a language that developers like more or even love and has
00:21:46 ◼ ► these things. And it just making the language nicer for developers almost always makes it
00:21:52 ◼ ► harder for the compiler. I think that's one of the classic computer trade-offs, like memory and speed,
00:21:59 ◼ ► you pick one kind of thing. And C compilers are faster because C, I love how I'm telling you this,
00:22:15 ◼ ► I didn't look into it, but I think I saw it. I forget it. I'm calling it a tweet because
00:22:21 ◼ ► I think it's on Mastodon, but forget it. Everything's a tweet these days. I can't be bothered
00:22:27 ◼ ► Yeah, I know. I liked your comment on that too. It's whatever. It's a form, not an item at this
00:22:33 ◼ ► point. Anyway, it was like a C compiler written in some incredibly small number of bytes. It just
00:22:39 ◼ ► didn't do any error correction. It was like, I don't know. If it doesn't do any error correction
00:22:46 ◼ ► and just the symbols that you put, it'll turn that into code, you can write it tidy, really,
00:22:53 ◼ ► really tiny. It's trying to figure out where you've gone wrong, which is the bulk of an actual C.
00:23:03 ◼ ► freak of nature genius packed an entire C compiler into 512 bytes because he wanted it to load.
00:23:25 ◼ ► "Well, because you're a C compiler, we just trust that you won't screw it up," which is
00:23:29 ◼ ► hilariously... C's always going to screw up. That's kind of it, basically. You're juggling with
00:23:35 ◼ ► flaming knives at that point. His explanation of it is 10 times longer than the actual C
00:23:51 ◼ ► Anyway, where I'm going though is that there's a number of Pro Mac users who just wish that Apple
00:23:58 ◼ ► would have done the 2019 Mac Pro all along. Just keep it in a big box where Apple doesn't have to
00:24:06 ◼ ► worry about the thermals. Just sell a big box that opens up and puts Intel stuff inside and
00:24:13 ◼ ► runs... hopefully runs as quiet as possible and give it a lot of ports on the back and just give
00:24:18 ◼ ► me the performance. And wish that they had done that all along. And in the meantime though,
00:24:24 ◼ ► we'd go through these year-long gaps without any update on the Mac Pro. And people who care about
00:24:37 ◼ ► What do you got in it's the danger of being on this one weird platform or platforms at this point
00:24:44 ◼ ► from Apple where if you're in the Apple ecosystem and Apple isn't interested in making hardware X,
00:24:51 ◼ ► you don't have an option to buy it, right? So like if you like the mini iPhone form factor,
00:25:07 ◼ ► Yeah. The only reason it doesn't hurt so much with the iPhone mini is that there really isn't
00:25:12 ◼ ► such a thing in the Android world either. But like with PCs, you can get any weird form factor
00:25:19 ◼ ► you want, right? So if you still like 17 inch or 18 inch lunch tray size laptops, you can get them
00:25:25 ◼ ► in the PC world. You can get really gigantic... The gaming ones are often really tricked out.
00:25:42 ◼ ► how monopolies work. They're a monopoly on Mac OS, but it's a monopoly? I don't know. It's not
00:25:48 ◼ ► really. It just... It is a unit. And if they're not making something for you and you have different
00:25:55 ◼ ► requirements, then it's a big ass to switch ecosystems, all right? Which is, I think, an
00:26:02 ◼ ► oblique way of getting at what this new Mac Pro may be. One of the issues is a lot of these very,
00:26:09 ◼ ► very custom workflows are tuned for Intel and not necessarily tuned for Apple, Silicon. And now you're
00:26:15 ◼ ► coming out with a new Mac Pro. Let's give it fantasy specs of like it's... It probably won't
00:26:21 ◼ ► be able to... Let's say double an M1 Studio. So an M1 Ultra, I believe, which I have. And it is
00:26:36 ◼ ► Mac Studio is pro enough for me. And I think I would effectively be... It's similar to the
00:26:44 ◼ ► studio display that we were talking about, where to go up to the XDR, I feel, would be extra money
00:26:50 ◼ ► that I don't need to spend in order for my actual use case. And I think the studio does that. So
00:26:55 ◼ ► where does that leave the next Mac Pro? A whole bunch of Apple Silicon thrown at a problem,
00:27:05 ◼ ► >> Well, I just keep going back to that 2013 one from 10 years ago. And I feel like it's
00:27:12 ◼ ► almost like what the people who love the Mac Pro were thinking is, I'm so worried that Apple
00:27:17 ◼ ► doesn't care about it anymore. And in fact, I think it's the opposite. It's that Apple cared
00:27:22 ◼ ► so much. And at very high levels in Mac engineering and product marketing like Phil Schiller,
00:27:32 ◼ ► they really do value the sort of race car version of workstation computing. And they cared so much
00:27:41 ◼ ► that they engineered this incredibly, in a way, beautiful Mac Pro, this cylinder with the highest
00:27:52 ◼ ► finish, super shiny. I mean, it looks like something from, again, like a Star Wars movie
00:28:04 ◼ ► system to do the exhaust through the middle. They spent an incredible... I mean, it's not just like,
00:28:09 ◼ ► oh, it's going to be small. And Johnny Ive or somebody else on his team did a sketch of a
00:28:15 ◼ ► cylinder and handed it off. I mean, it was a monumental amount of design and engineering work
00:28:21 ◼ ► to make that work. And it just was a bad bet on, a really bad bet on where PC computing was going
00:28:29 ◼ ► for the rest of that decade, which was all towards big-ass GPUs that, A, physically wouldn't
00:28:37 ◼ ► fit inside there and B, even if they somehow could be reduced in size to fit, wouldn't have the
00:28:44 ◼ ► thermal headroom to run as hot as they do. But it's almost... I just think the people who were
00:28:53 ◼ ► worried would have been happier if Apple cared less and it just phoned it in with the big box
00:28:58 ◼ ► all along. Yeah. I think there's just two points to that. A, I think the suppliers that Apple was
00:29:04 ◼ ► dealing with at the time, Intel and ATI, they did not share the incentives that Apple did. Apple
00:29:09 ◼ ► wanted to make quiet, very, very fast computers, both laptops and in this case on the desktop.
00:29:15 ◼ ► Whereas both Intel and ATI at the time, or very soon after, were incentivized to make the biggest,
00:29:23 ◼ ► most power hungry chips they can because they were getting pushed up market, specifically with
00:29:29 ◼ ► the some of the ATI and the AI and sort of crypto mining stuff that all the GPUs got sucked up in.
00:29:37 ◼ ► The parameters under which they were expected to operate changed. Their markets were chasing
00:29:44 ◼ ► the high-end power is no consequence kind of thing, whereas Apple really wanted what they
00:29:50 ◼ ► ended up making for themselves in terms of Apple's silicon. And I guess the second thing with that is
00:29:55 ◼ ► while I really admire them for making the trashcan or a different form factor, experimenting with
00:30:00 ◼ ► stuff, is it like, did they make an El Camino? Were they like, this is a pickup truck, but it
00:30:06 ◼ ► looks cool. Like, well, this is a pickup truck, looks like a pickup truck for a reason. And I
00:30:11 ◼ ► don't mean the crazy over the top modern ones that are basically like, there's a limo in front and
00:30:16 ◼ ► like, none of that, that's an obscene exaggeration of a pickup truck, but like a good old Ford pickup
00:30:23 ◼ ► truck that you'd see banging around a farm kind of thing like that. It works. It's a flatbed,
00:30:27 ◼ ► it's got wheels and it will last forever. Don't mess with it. All right. Don't mess with it.
00:30:33 ◼ ► All right. Let's take a break and we'll pick it up. Let me take a break here and take our first
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00:33:11 ◼ ► RocketMoney.com/TheTalkShow. So that's what I here's here's where I'm going with all this. I think
00:33:20 ◼ ► I think that I think we are going to see the Mac Pro at WWDC and I think they're going to go back
00:33:28 ◼ ► to ambitious and ambitious design. I think so. I do not think I do not think it's going to look
00:33:36 ◼ ► like the 2019 one and you open it up and there's a tiny tiny little... It would be pretty funny.
00:33:45 ◼ ► Have you ever seen like by the tail end of VCRs or CD players like you'd open them up and they're
00:33:51 ◼ ► mostly just that shape to fit in the cabinet that's designed for otherwise it's just empty
00:34:02 ◼ ► and I think it was like his it was like a eight foot tall alien and his chest opened up and in
00:34:08 ◼ ► fact there was a little a little guy the size like a like a frog and he's the outer guy was just a
00:34:16 ◼ ► robot and a real alien was just a little like a little babu frik like the there yeah that's a
00:34:20 ◼ ► Skywalker reference yeah the only good part of that movie yeah the only good scene in the whole
00:34:24 ◼ ► movie babu frik a little guy like that there's some argument to be like the the new case was
00:34:29 ◼ ► received incredibly well like people like that's awesome and I think maybe if you roll out another
00:34:38 ◼ ► stop it just give us what we want but I don't know I do think that there may be I think there's gonna
00:34:46 ◼ ► almost have to be something like it can't just be a bigger better max studio like what's the
00:34:51 ◼ ► what's the point really why didn't you just make a little bit of a bigger max studio and do that
00:34:55 ◼ ► so that brings us to expansion and and graphics cards and all of that jazz and sort of a lot of
00:35:02 ◼ ► the a lot of the weight in that industry is on nvidia who have been having some recent issues
00:35:10 ◼ ► but it seems more of a short-term thing and I'll leave that to you and Ben to figure out I'm a
00:35:15 ◼ ► little bit behind on dithering but could apple work with nv yeah probably would they I don't know
00:35:21 ◼ ► both those companies seem so headstrong then they they get a real sense they don't like each other
00:35:25 ◼ ► the other aspect that I was kind of touching on was a lot of this lower level stuff is sort of
00:35:32 ◼ ► very very tuned for intel things and I was joking previously about this I honestly don't think this
00:35:38 ◼ ► is going to be the case but do you remember those 46 boards that you could plug into like max yeah
00:35:44 ◼ ► way back in the 90s I do I would I would laugh I would laugh my ass off so there was like like a
00:35:50 ◼ ► like a little tiny awesome apple silicon thing and then just a slot was like well we just stuck a pc
00:35:56 ◼ ► in there because because we can for those like as an add-on you know what I mean like yeah if you
00:36:01 ◼ ► want if you want the add-on whatever we'll give you a whole bunch of like intel chips stuck on a
00:36:06 ◼ ► board they have the capability to do that right like mac os runs on intel they they can make their
00:36:12 ◼ ► daughter board talk to the thing I think it's crazy I do not think this is going to happen
00:36:17 ◼ ► I'm just spitballing weird and crazy things that you could do with a massive enclosure like that
00:36:22 ◼ ► but and ultimately you do need to address the expandability mark somehow for that for those for
00:36:27 ◼ ► that for those who don't remember I don't remember it was sometime in the 90s but at some point in the
00:36:31 ◼ ► 90s apple sold you could buy I think it might have been before the power pc maybe that's you know
00:36:39 ◼ ► it could have been with the motorola x68 6000 yeah 68 000 series but you could buy a very expensive
00:36:48 ◼ ► I forget the name of those slots new bus was a new yeah new bus might have been new bus yeah
00:36:55 ◼ ► it might have been new bus I'll try to look it up for the show notes here but there would be a very
00:36:59 ◼ ► expensive card that was effectively just a whole it's just a whole intel pc you put it in a card
00:37:07 ◼ ► and then you'd launch like an app you'd be in mac os or system 7 or whatever it was at the time and
00:37:14 ◼ ► launch an app that would run a pc but instead of emulating it was running it on the the pc of the
00:37:22 ◼ ► card so it wasn't you didn't I don't think if I if I'm recalling I didn't own one because I had no
00:37:27 ◼ ► need for it and it was very expensive but it wasn't a dual boot type thing it wasn't like shut
00:37:33 ◼ ► down the mac and hold down the the p and the c keys on the keyboard and reboot into the pc no it would
00:37:38 ◼ ► run as an app but those apps weren't being emulated they were running on a pc on a card
00:37:43 ◼ ► it was crazy uh yeah if anything it was a little bit like classic where some I mean yeah it was all
00:37:50 ◼ ► on the same thing but like you remember how classic was these janky cutout windows that like
00:37:54 ◼ ► he dragged another window across it he would do the no redraw thing from windows back in the day
00:37:58 ◼ ► yeah yeah you could see it repaint yeah I don't think they're gonna do that and I for whether
00:38:06 ◼ ► apple is going to be able to pull this off or not I mean effectively I know nvidia has competition
00:38:12 ◼ ► AMD has graphic cards that are that are well regarded but there's no dispute that nvidias
00:38:19 ◼ ► are the best or the fastest if what you really need is the highest performance GPU and lots of
00:38:25 ◼ ► people who are not video game enthusiasts are doing work that requires the fastest possible
00:38:30 ◼ ► GPU they can get and there's also specifically kuda which is their programming model right for
00:38:37 ◼ ► that which is sort of a sort of similar to metal shaders there were metal compute shaders
00:38:41 ◼ ► specifically apple sort of invented and abandoned open cl which was a another take on the same kind
00:38:48 ◼ ► of like general purpose program or general programming on a gpu style device kind of thing
00:38:54 ◼ ► but kuda is the one that's captured everybody's imagination like that's that is the go-to
00:38:58 ◼ ► programming model for high-end gpu stuff now so yeah not only do they need the speed but I feel
00:39:05 ◼ ► like a little bit like intel if intel slipped a generation and they weren't the fastest chip you
00:39:12 ◼ ► were still running the intel instruction set right but that's slowly going like that advantages but
00:39:18 ◼ ► you know for years if they had a bad one yeah it's not the end of the world because ultimately AMD
00:39:24 ◼ ► is still running our instruction set and so and we are holding that those remains right so like
00:39:30 ◼ ► I think what you're saying here is so let's just say next week at the keynote John Turnus is up on
00:39:36 ◼ ► stage and he's introducing a new Mac Pro and lo and behold apple can flat out say this whatever
00:39:46 ◼ ► it is it's it's not a m1 ultra say m1 is too old at this point m2 whatever the name is and for the
00:39:53 ◼ ► Mac Pro and Mac Pro only apple has their own apple silicon graphics that outperform nvidia's
00:40:02 ◼ ► top of the line whatever so cycle for cycle outperforms nvidia at the high end yeah that's
00:40:11 ◼ ► still they could do it given the same power budget right but that yeah but that may not be enough
00:40:16 ◼ ► for the industry because the industry's locked into CUDA or not locked in but CUDA has so much
00:40:23 ◼ ► momentum and those type of things if you've got this whole the thousands and thousands of
00:40:29 ◼ ► programmer person hours into CUDA and experience in CUDA and so you've got a code base and experience
00:40:37 ◼ ► and it's you know that you can just buy intel pcs and nvidia graphics cards going forward that
00:40:45 ◼ ► train is has left the station and it's it's not enough for apple to say if you use our APIs
00:40:52 ◼ ► instead of CUDA you'll get better performance they're like it it may not be enough i i i think
00:40:58 ◼ ► that's right yeah also it's it's like the win 32 API which lasted forever there was a massive
00:41:04 ◼ ► lock-in in windows even after into the 2000s where the mac took off right there's still a bunch of
00:41:10 ◼ ► stuff like and the stuff that is very window centric is often this high-end performance stuff
00:41:16 ◼ ► like like architectural software like cad software there's very like industry niche specific things
00:41:21 ◼ ► that are tied to windows not because they couldn't run on the mac but because like well bring that
00:41:26 ◼ ► over it's a huge pain in the ass and we're not going to get the market we can get and a lot of
00:41:30 ◼ ► these people buy computers to run that software rather than the other way the other thing with
00:41:36 ◼ ► CUDA is that yes people are accustomed to the API and all that but like one of the issues not
00:41:41 ◼ ► not after the iphone prior to it was getting developers who knew objective c was a huge pain
00:41:47 ◼ ► in the ass which limited the talent pool that you could bring in for microsoft needed to train up a
00:41:52 ◼ ► bunch of people adobe needed to train up people apple internally needs to train up a bunch of
00:41:56 ◼ ► people and no big not advanced had a lot of hand in right and a lot of that and like getting people
00:42:00 ◼ ► up to standard or or knowing how to do stuff with objective c was a huge lift until maybe the iphone
00:42:06 ◼ ► made it so that everybody wanted objective c swift came easier i think because it was a little bit
00:42:12 ◼ ► more uh familiar but also everybody wanted to be on the iphone anyway so whatever everybody
00:42:18 ◼ ► learned swift because they had to CUDA is where it's at some CUDA like apple only thing less so
00:42:25 ◼ ► and if you want to hire somebody you're like okay well you know all that the basics you know how
00:42:30 ◼ ► CUDA works it works mostly the same but it's not quite the same and having experience with like
00:42:36 ◼ ► the particulars of the device matters in these cases because like an nvidia device well first
00:42:42 ◼ ► of all the big thing is that the memory bandwidth like in nvidia devices they've got their ram right
00:42:46 ◼ ► next to the right next to their gpu and on apple devices it's all shared with the cpu so the costs
00:42:53 ◼ ► of sending something to the card on a nvidia device are greater and an apple device they're
00:42:58 ◼ ► smaller which means you may tweak your algorithms in completely different ways for the nvidia you
00:43:03 ◼ ► may be like i'm going to give you everything and you figure it out and get back to me and for an
00:43:07 ◼ ► apple one you may want like a more iterative operating in place kind of algorithm which are
00:43:11 ◼ ► totally different approaches regardless of whatever CUDA or metal shader like it's difficult
00:43:24 ◼ ► you kind of want people to be able to do the same thing they're always doing in order to leverage it
00:43:29 ◼ ► but you're going to need them to do something slightly different and i fear that that's exactly
00:43:34 ◼ ► what happened in 2013 is that in order to take the best advantage of the 2013 mac pro you needed
00:43:40 ◼ ► to program these crazy dual gpu ati boards and you sort of needed to change your programming model up
00:43:46 ◼ ► a bit and i think that's kind of where it's stalled out beyond the the hardware failures of like heat
00:43:53 ◼ ► and like stuff like it just presupposed that everything worked perfectly i still think you've
00:43:58 ◼ ► got a bit of an uphill battle in terms of convincing people that this model of computer
00:44:02 ◼ ► this model of computing is the way to go so i've yeah that it just makes me excited to see the
00:44:11 ◼ ► announcement and i know i again we'll get to the headset but if the wwdc keynote comes and goes
00:44:17 ◼ ► without mention of the mac pro i'm going to find it baffling i really am because i i i i know that
00:44:25 ◼ ► it was over a year ago at this point it was like at the end of march or april last year when they
00:44:29 ◼ ► did the little mid-cycle special i think it was all yeah it was all remote it was broadcast but
00:44:36 ◼ ► when they announced the mac studio and the studio display and turnis said at the end of the whole
00:44:40 ◼ ► thing we're not quite complete with our move to apple silicon we've got one more yet to come that's
00:44:46 ◼ ► the mac pro but that's a story for another day or something like that yeah i forget exactly how he
00:44:51 ◼ ► said it it was very carefully it wasn't dashed off right number one it's not live yeah well also
00:44:59 ◼ ► they don't do that even live i don't think maybe they dashed off i've been like they're very very
00:45:04 ◼ ► good at community i i know for a fact i i cannot i cannot name my source but let's say a person very
00:45:12 ◼ ► close to the matter i can confirm that can't any innovate anymore my ass was an ad lib oh really
00:45:20 ◼ ► oh yeah that's awesome oh i love that that's great it was not in the rehearsals or it might
00:45:26 ◼ ► but also one of the very few people who could get away with that right yeah who could who could take
00:45:32 ◼ ► the call from tim cook after the keynote and hey was that in the script and you know justify it so
00:45:39 ◼ ► it did happen on stage occasionally where there'd be an ad lib but that was very careful and i re
00:45:46 ◼ ► i also do not think that like apple like turnis thought in april last year that the mac pro was
00:45:56 ◼ ► just around the corner i think they knew the road map and obviously something has changed since
00:46:02 ◼ ► 2020 when they first announced the shift to apple silicon and said we expect we're going to start
00:46:08 ◼ ► later this year and we expect to get the whole platform on apple silicon in one year obviously
00:46:15 ◼ ► the mac pro has blown past that one year but so something changed at that point but i think last
00:46:22 ◼ ► year when they introduced the mac studio they knew what was coming and i don't know what it is but i
00:46:27 ◼ ► it's got to be something to me there's that is as as dramatically better than the mac studio as the
00:46:36 ◼ ► mac studio is from the mac mini maybe even more so yeah and i don't know what that means but me neither
00:46:42 ◼ ► i i think maybe to figure out or to have a better guess of what that would be would be to understand
00:46:47 ◼ ► the markets that they're trying to serve like i don't know are you going to give these to pixar
00:46:51 ◼ ► or are you going to give them to like who who are you building these things for is it genentech are
00:46:56 ◼ ► you doing like crazy gene research or all of them we built a thing that will like figure out covid
00:47:02 ◼ ► in like over an afternoon while you're drinking a cup of tea right like what is it and then you can
00:47:07 ◼ ► maybe guess but would you i guess my question for you is if wwdc comes and goes and there's no mention
00:47:14 ◼ ► of the mac pro and like a week later they they get you on the phone i'm like hey john we got bad news
00:47:21 ◼ ► we're just not doing one we're happy with the mac studio obviously they're going to spin it we're
00:47:25 ◼ ► very happy with that it showed up better than we expected yeah it's like it's like you work for
00:47:30 ◼ ► apple pr that's exactly what they would say it's worked out better than we expected and yeah that
00:47:37 ◼ ► would that would presuppose that they are going to announce the next generation mac studio though
00:47:43 ◼ ► right sure and they just say here's the m2 level max studio better yeah i could see that i guess
00:47:54 ◼ ► defeated the enemy and now we're all yeah all one big happy family and like the mac pro is awesome
00:47:59 ◼ ► so the mac studio is awesome so why not i i guess i i i i guess that's i guess that's the second most
00:48:06 ◼ ► likely scenario i think the most likely scenario is a incredibly innovative architecture not even
00:48:14 ◼ ► talking and and again i think apple's long-term internal affinity it doesn't i i everybody's
00:48:24 ◼ ► fear that apple doesn't care about the mac pros because obviously it's the least selling mac made
00:48:29 ◼ ► by quantity because it only it's super expensive and the only way yeah i know it's not the only
00:48:35 ◼ ► factor in how it works i know i'm preaching to the choir here right but people worry you know and i
00:48:40 ◼ ► think a quote-unquote typical company would think that way and think there's why in the world are
00:48:44 ◼ ► we spending any resources at all on this thing for 10 000 or i don't know how many people buy mac
00:48:50 ◼ ► pros maybe it's more than tens of thousands but it certainly isn't millions right it's it's
00:48:56 ◼ ► about it's somewhere in the thousands why are we spending all this time on this when we sell a
00:49:00 ◼ ► billion iphones a year let's just there's no comparison all we care about is iphone iphone
00:49:04 ◼ ► iphone that's not how apple thinks internally and they have a keen interest in it from an industrial
00:49:10 ◼ ► design perspective that the trash can for all of its all the things we did complain about it
00:49:15 ◼ ► already on this show it was a marvel of design and and shows how much they care even the 2019
00:49:22 ◼ ► one where they're like okay okay we'll just put an intel thing in a big box but they they'd spent
00:49:31 ◼ ► in a special pattern yeah yeah they they they spent five minutes on that and they really wanted
00:49:39 ◼ ► to talk about it they spent they they engineered thousand dollar wheels but i mean yeah they do
00:49:46 ◼ ► care but the other thing but the other thing is people think that that's apple be just wanting
00:49:50 ◼ ► money which right sure but at the other point it's like well they they did things that they really
00:49:58 ◼ ► wanted for themselves just to make it a work of art and they did it against a consumer body that
00:50:04 ◼ ► is willing to pay the price like this hinge costs a thousand bucks is that dumb to delay people sure
00:50:11 ◼ ► is that a drop in the i mean let's not get into the right of strike and how much money the studios
00:50:16 ◼ ► have but they can afford a few stands right like so just drop in the bucket for that but i i think
00:50:22 ◼ ► that the other thing that you it's easily overlooked is is how ambitious the whole johnny
00:50:30 ◼ ► suruji division is on put the industrial design aside just the system architecture side for the
00:50:38 ◼ ► m series chips there it's incredibly ambitious what they've been doing with apple silicon and it
00:50:45 ◼ ► explains because before apple silicon at some point between the years like 2015 2016 and 2020
00:50:53 ◼ ► when they finally announced it it was clear from just pure benchmarks that iphones were outperforming
00:51:00 ◼ ► like on single core benchmarks outperforming macbooks backbook pros it it yeah they could
00:51:08 ◼ ► have built max using a series chips i mean in fact they did with the developer kit thing the developer
00:51:15 ◼ ► kit that they gave out in 2020 was based on an a series chip and it was a good computer and it had
00:51:20 ◼ ► the same nice performance per watt advantages overall they could have just sold that they could
00:51:26 ◼ ► have just called it a day be like you know what iphone chip and a thing here you go but they spent
00:51:30 ◼ ► a fortune of money of time engineering talent to build this entire m series architecture which
00:51:38 ◼ ► makes no sense for phones right you'd never put these chips into phones because of the the size
00:51:45 ◼ ► and power characteristics a series chips are exactly what you want in a phone and these m series
00:51:51 ◼ ► chips are what you want in pc class desktop computers and laptops and really incredibly
00:51:59 ◼ ► innovative the you mentioned the shared memory before and it's so yeah it's such an inversion
00:52:05 ◼ ► of the way things were before where intel had been selling integrated graphics on their lower end
00:52:12 ◼ ► consumer pcs for years that yeah that shared memory memory and and that was like a downside
00:52:19 ◼ ► it was like oh it's you know it's a thousand dollar laptop with shared memory and with apple
00:52:24 ◼ ► it's the opposite where it's this tremendous performance advantage because the graphics
00:52:35 ◼ ► something in memory goes from the cpu to gpu it's already there and you save this whole copy yeah
00:52:43 ◼ ► over a bus like people go bananas over bus speeds but guess what right how about no bus
00:52:47 ◼ ► speed yeah no infinite right literally infinite bus speed which is and when you're doing things
00:52:57 ◼ ► incomprehensible to to human mind speed those copies matter who knows what else they might
00:53:05 ◼ ► have up their sleeve in terms of an architectural pushing the entire state of the art forward
00:53:12 ◼ ► that would only be in the mac pro and i've drawn this analogy on on the show before but i think
00:53:31 ◼ ► i was about to just exactly back that up which is the the purpose of the mac pro is not necessarily
00:53:38 ◼ ► to sell units but it's to encourage people in the lab to figure out interconnects between okay now
00:53:44 ◼ ► we've got two m1 ultras or two m2 ultras what happens to be how do we in it how do we build
00:53:49 ◼ ► that interconnect how do we how do we make that work as fast as possible how do we deal with
00:53:54 ◼ ► the memory contention which was a big issue i mean whatever going back in history in in the 90s like
00:53:59 ◼ ► a lot of sun and and and similar workstations had different ways of addressing memory and working
00:54:06 ◼ ► the details out on all that behooves the platforms lower down right like as eventually whatever you
00:54:12 ◼ ► put in your mac pro 2023 that tech will find its way into product x whatever product x happens to
00:54:20 ◼ ► be like no idea what it's going to be but any research that you've done in order to use the
00:54:25 ◼ ► high end effect i don't know if it's a loss leader probably a loss leader but it's going to filter
00:54:30 ◼ ► down right and by stretching yourself to do these obscene and crazy things you will ultimately learn
00:54:36 ◼ ► a whole bunch that can be applied elsewhere not necessarily taking the parts but taking what you've
00:54:40 ◼ ► learned and using that elsewhere right is invaluable if if you're single-mindedly focused on the phone
00:54:45 ◼ ► you really wouldn't need any more graphic capability than to push a 6.7 inch display at retina
00:54:54 ◼ ► level right and i know there's rumors that the next year's phones might be a quarter of an inch
00:54:58 ◼ ► bigger or something like that but the basic size of a phone is relatively small you know how many
00:55:02 ◼ ► pixels there are but if you're also have this division that's spent years trying to push the
00:55:09 ◼ ► state of the art forward for giant 5k 6k get it up to 8k displays all of a sudden you've got this
00:55:17 ◼ ► architecture and muscle and experience where maybe you could build something like a headset with two
00:55:24 ◼ ► 8k displays in front of each eye and have it run cool on a thing that's in front of your face that
00:55:31 ◼ ► that tech would make no sense on a phone or even an ipad really in terms of how many pixels it's
00:55:37 ◼ ► pushing but all of a sudden here's a new product category where us having us apple having built
00:55:44 ◼ ► these race car workstations for the mac it all of a sudden it's relevant to what ultimately is
00:55:52 ◼ ► intended to be a mass market consumer product yeah i think there's a lot of computing or computer
00:55:57 ◼ ► companies i don't even know if they exist i had that dell hp is gone compact there's a there was
00:56:05 ◼ ► that that run in the 90s of sort of built to order things that did well and made a lot of money on
00:56:10 ◼ ► basically having the the supply chain all work out like just in time manufacturing all of that apple
00:56:18 ◼ ► doesn't wait for technology to become available from its partners apple makes the technology by
00:56:32 ◼ ► for crypto or ai or whatever the high-end massively parallel programming model du jour is or
00:56:38 ◼ ► premise du jour is apple is left alone in some ways to like it has to be the one inventing new
00:56:47 ◼ ► ways to use this stuff and have us to be the one pushing itself certainly games aren't doing it for
00:56:52 ◼ ► them so they need to be the one reaching just that extra little bit further and i i admire them for
00:57:00 ◼ ► doing it in all kinds of ways both in the thermal corners that they trap themselves in and maybe in
00:57:05 ◼ ► a giant ass computer that's going to really confuse us or if they're just like you know what
00:57:09 ◼ ► we got a lot of really fast compute but we can't make a product out of it so forget it and the i
00:57:15 ◼ ► think it's directly related even though it's not a workstation class machine but the other
00:57:29 ◼ ► could support was the no adjective 12-inch macbook yeah right we have that one too if there's a dumb
00:57:38 ◼ ► apple computer i bought it i don't know what i don't know what to tell you the 12-inch macbook
00:57:43 ◼ ► makes even even today's and i still i i'm a little surprised i really thought that that bringing so i
00:57:50 ◼ ► didn't know what name they would call it but bringing something back that is insanely thin
00:57:55 ◼ ► was something i thought apple would do because it was clearly something they were interested in a
00:57:59 ◼ ► decade ago but it really did and when you look at one side by side especially when you hold it
00:58:05 ◼ ► it's like pictures on the web don't do didn't do justice to how much thinner it was than the
00:58:10 ◼ ► macbook airs of the time it it was just so thin and light compared to anything else apple had
00:58:16 ◼ ► ever made and the performance just stunk because that was the best that it was like what was it
00:58:22 ◼ ► adam atom the intel atom architecture uh kind of third-rate intel thing like intentionally sort of
00:58:30 ◼ ► spec to run in a very tight well and yeah no fans at all yeah that was very cool and i know people
00:58:36 ◼ ► who loved it i really do especially people who for obvious reasons the type of people who have
00:58:42 ◼ ► jobs where either they're traveling all the time or yeah even when they're quote-unquote at work
00:58:49 ◼ ► they don't really have a desk where they spend all day they're moving around all day and they
00:58:54 ◼ ► need to take their computer with them well obviously making it as thin and light as possible
00:58:57 ◼ ► it means you're schlepping the least amount around yeah i really love mine i know uh our
00:59:02 ◼ ► friend rob ryan swore by it like he would take all his meetings and just but it like it yeah
00:59:07 ◼ ► it just shows that both at at two extremes the 2013 mac pro and the 12-inch mac macbook showed
00:59:16 ◼ ► or proved that apple needed to take the silicon story into its own hands because left to the
00:59:24 ◼ ► industry state of the art they they weren't getting chips that enabled them to build the
00:59:30 ◼ ► the computers that they imagined they needed to do it and i feel like that that's where they are
00:59:44 ◼ ► pc-oriented the best performance but they're building things that are not commensurate with
00:59:54 ◼ ► apple's imagination for the performance per watt characteristics of how a high-end graphics card
01:00:00 ◼ ► should work so apple needs to do it themselves and the other thing about the trash can that i think
01:00:05 ◼ ► makes me optimistic is that it's clear from the trash can forward that apple knew how important
01:00:12 ◼ ► gpu's were to the future of computing and so they've which i so one of the man i think this
01:00:21 ◼ ► is one of the first arguments i had with syracuse back in 97 something like that not a real argument
01:00:26 ◼ ► but with os 10 or maybe yeah probably you would agree with Syracuse on this because you guys are
01:00:31 ◼ ► both older mac people than i am but it with os 10 everything was buffered and the windows were slow
01:00:37 ◼ ► incredibly slow to to be drawn my position was like yeah sure but they're using the gpu to
01:00:43 ◼ ► composite all of this and the future will be better i have since getting to know you better
01:00:48 ◼ ► and i would just my product my appreciation for products has sort of changed over the years and
01:00:54 ◼ ► i do think that like i think it was the right thing to do and i think it stank at the time and
01:00:59 ◼ ► i think it made a lot of sense for people to remain on mac os for the year or two that it
01:01:03 ◼ ► took to sort of get a little bit better on the other hand the entire industry now runs like that
01:01:08 ◼ ► everybody has like a compositing thing you all draw into a back buffer it all gets composited
01:01:12 ◼ ► that that's how it works that it linux does it windows has done it for years and that's sort of
01:01:17 ◼ ► when they took gpu started to take gpu more seriously i think the 2013 was a big bet on
01:01:25 ◼ ► taking gps more seriously as general compute and that's why they introduced opencl effectively
01:01:31 ◼ ► alongside it which was sort of their version of kuda except if kuda was direct x to to stick to
01:01:37 ◼ ► the microsoft technology kuda was direct 3d direct x the windows microsoft only api then kuda was sort
01:01:44 ◼ ► of equivalent on the compute side they wanted an open gl thing which was open cl to sort of like
01:01:52 ◼ ► open that up and have a collective thing hey let's all just do open cl rather than getting sucked up
01:01:57 ◼ ► and kuda both open gl and open cl failed for any number of reasons mostly having to do with the way
01:02:02 ◼ ► committees work and a whole bunch of frankly and apple i'm sure plays great on committees but moves
01:02:09 ◼ ► a lot faster when they're like you know what fuck it we've got to yeah we're gonna do what we're
01:02:12 ◼ ► gonna do because we can build the chip and make the thing so why are we why we bother with you guys
01:02:16 ◼ ► i i am very very curious to see how this kind of thing is gonna go and one of the things that they
01:02:25 ◼ ► are lacking is games driving them forward in terms of gpu and i think that's been true since forever
01:02:33 ◼ ► i know marathon has just been re-announced but it's not coming to them it's not coming to the
01:02:36 ◼ ► mac which is heartbreaking even for me and i'm like a hold that hold that hold that thought let's take
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01:05:05 ◼ ► slash talk show marathon man oh man i just got done listening to syracuse and bemoan it on atp
01:05:13 ◼ ► i don't know it's i'm a few weeks behind on that yeah i gotta so what so i might have just i might
01:05:18 ◼ ► have if they've covered stuff that i've said i'm sorry i don't know i haven't were you did you play
01:05:27 ◼ ► i i forget where you you just said you weren't as long time mac user did you ever play marathon back
01:05:32 ◼ ► in the day like i did but i came into the mac in 97 when i didn't say it the reunification
01:05:42 ◼ ► yeah reunification next when when yeah when they got next back yeah so during the reunification
01:05:46 ◼ ► because steve told me that there would be uh like an open step mac running in like no time at all
01:05:52 ◼ ► and there there was not it was 2001 so i had i had a great mac i had like a g3 266 with some av like
01:06:01 ◼ ► i could plug in my my vcr to it that was cool and yeah so system 8 which was amazing i really like
01:06:08 ◼ ► system 8 8.5 was great like the stuff went to all of the quickdraw i believe went to powered pc
01:06:14 ◼ ► native and i really fell in love with what the mac was coming from effectively windows nte os
01:06:22 ◼ ► 2 kind of thing like it boggled my mind that when you held down on a slider the mac would stop
01:06:29 ◼ ► because it would be like you know what this guy really wants to scroll i'm going to use
01:06:34 ◼ ► everything i got to make this the event loop for like mouse down actions was still from like 1984
01:06:40 ◼ ► where it was just yeah it just it really was it was like somewhere low in the system it was just
01:06:45 ◼ ► a while loop while button is still down there's like some and poked out freaking rat in a cage
01:06:52 ◼ ► just like i just gotta move this cursor right and it had it i don't know i i think somebody maybe i
01:06:59 ◼ ► know i think keith staton field still at apples he was like i think the head engineer on on
01:07:06 ◼ ► at least the last half or the last five years of the classic mac os like some kind of talk or or
01:07:13 ◼ ► retrospective 20 years later of where the system architecture wound up with mac os 8.5 and mac os
01:07:21 ◼ ► 9 mac os 9 was really good and really really gave apple the headroom they needed to let mac os 10
01:07:28 ◼ ► establish itself and get off the ground but it was yeah it was weird and it was nowhere near as
01:07:35 ◼ ► crude as people think there was a kernel but it also had to support these ancient apis if they
01:07:43 ◼ ► could have said carbon only no software except carbon they could have used a modern had a much
01:07:50 ◼ ► more modern system architecture it's just kind of the copeland plan right which was a new kernel and
01:07:55 ◼ ► new kernel i think there was some derivatives that took mark but yeah i i think you and i were talking
01:08:00 ◼ ► about this at ben in a text chain how i i honestly think carbon is probably a key savior for apple at
01:08:08 ◼ ► the time oh without question june june that during that transition right and it's and it's champion
01:08:13 ◼ ► with scott forestall who came out for style of next came from next but was the not the voice of
01:08:18 ◼ ► reason but the the voice of practicality like yes and nobody was more committed to the future of
01:08:23 ◼ ► cocoa and the next technologies than forestall but as a practical matter for the late 90s and
01:08:29 ◼ ► first few years of the 2000s yeah they needed it and they modernized it but anyway in that era
01:08:35 ◼ ► a company who you may have heard of named bungee in december 1994 came out with a first-person
01:08:41 ◼ ► shooter that was mac only called marathon yeah and so like the weird i don't know it was like
01:08:49 ◼ ► the tail end of the piece the windows pc universe and a mac universe being so utterly foreign right
01:08:57 ◼ ► like the internet the internet was the and as much as carbon saved apple the internet saved apple too
01:09:04 ◼ ► right oh yeah web and the web because as everything moved to the as so much moved to the web as the
01:09:10 ◼ ► to pressure off the native apps right and the lowest common denominator right so all these
01:09:14 ◼ ► companies who were only going to write once and we're going to write against win 32 and that left
01:09:19 ◼ ► apple mac users out in the cold when that shifted to we're only going to write it once and it's
01:09:24 ◼ ► going to be in the web that meant it could run everywhere so that saved apple but you know floppy
01:09:29 ◼ ► disks were formatted differently the apps were entirely different extensions man follow remember
01:09:34 ◼ ► like right you don't get me started don't don't get me started i know i know i i think it's a
01:09:39 ◼ ► necessary evil and i have for 30 some odd years now but whatever i i don't they're gross they're
01:09:45 ◼ ► gross for all other reasons going to be gross os 10 basically introduced them to the mac
01:09:51 ◼ ► gross we're now living in a we're now living in a world where top level domain is dot zip and
01:09:57 ◼ ► that's i know that's it's bad anyway i feel like we're just tripping down memory lane you're
01:10:04 ◼ ► the master of these digressions the dot zip thing is that google of all companies who should know
01:10:09 ◼ ► better is also a domain name registrar and one of the new domains that they've launched you can get
01:10:15 ◼ ► like guyenglish.zip now which don't download guyenglish.zip but that's the actual domain name
01:10:24 ◼ ► and it's if you think about it it's horrible because if you can put together a url that's like
01:10:29 ◼ ► redirecting and looks like it's something else it will look like it's a file name dot zip
01:10:35 ◼ ► that you're just downloading a file where instead you're actually going to this website you didn't
01:10:41 ◼ ► intend to go to it's a bad file extension is a horrible idea but at a time when pc users were
01:10:47 ◼ ► celebrating doom from id software the groundbreaking first-person shooter was pc only the mac had
01:10:55 ◼ ► marathon and it obviously is not as popular as doom because the mac was smaller but in its weird
01:11:02 ◼ ► ways i i played both as a mac there's zillions of pc users in the 90s who never got to play marathon
01:11:10 ◼ ► because they didn't have any they didn't know where they could use a mac whereas a mac user
01:11:14 ◼ ► i had seen doom and played doom very different game doom was really just pure just go there
01:11:22 ◼ ► and blow apart anything that moves and marathon had a story a really really interesting way yeah
01:11:28 ◼ ► the bungee way yeah i think for those of you out there who were either too young or weren't mac
01:11:33 ◼ ► users in the 90s bungee of course went on to make the halo franchise now they're best known for the
01:11:39 ◼ ► destiny franchise which all of my adult friends who do play video games are addicted addicted to
01:11:46 ◼ ► but hey if you played halo which i did play that was one of the last games i played halo
01:11:50 ◼ ► was so marathon like and in fact i think i don't know if it was a different time or something but
01:11:57 ◼ ► it took place in the greater marathon universe and they had easter eggs buried but the way that there
01:12:02 ◼ ► was stories and they talk about relevant to today's world there was an a there were i think dueling ai
01:12:10 ◼ ► constructs in the marathon world where you'd be running around a spaceship shooting these aliens
01:12:15 ◼ ► and you'd get to a console and some of the ais were unhelpful yeah just a fantastic game and
01:12:25 ◼ ► it was a great first person or single player game with a great story that was very very engrossing
01:12:31 ◼ ► and rich the game it's the engine was innovative and powerful and had things that i don't think
01:12:37 ◼ ► doom even had like it was meant to you had had mouse i believe you can mouse up and down yeah
01:12:41 ◼ ► you could look up and down with the mouse yeah and so you weren't just playing on a 2d map
01:12:45 ◼ ► you were playing 3d and where to me it's just doubt right down memory lane and it's just
01:12:55 ◼ ► amazingly warm memories was the multiplayer now multiplayer in that time absolutely positively
01:13:03 ◼ ► couldn't take place over the broader internet so it was the quote-unquote land party but even
01:13:09 ◼ ► do that like the null modem like no but i only played at the school newspaper so at drexel i
01:13:15 ◼ ► came out in 94 i graduated at the end of 96 or june 96 and i hung around for another year in the
01:13:22 ◼ ► area and still friends with the paper so he played but the school newspaper at drexel the triangle we
01:13:27 ◼ ► had we didn't we made real money with real ads good money nobody and all the the entire staff
01:13:35 ◼ ► was volunteer so we didn't pay the editors or writers we just it's a good way to make money
01:13:41 ◼ ► that's right and we do this are doing we traded we traded ad space to local restaurants in exchange
01:13:48 ◼ ► for free food so we got instead of money so we could eat dinner four or five nights a week at
01:13:55 ◼ ► the paper so we i got to eat food and then we would just spend all of the money we made from
01:14:01 ◼ ► advertising printing the actual newspaper and buying expensive macintosh computers and laser
01:14:08 ◼ ► printers that's uh that's a great scam yeah you don't have any rent to pay it's like yeah so and
01:14:14 ◼ ► we have the off the office space was what was provided to student clubs at any university
01:14:21 ◼ ► there's all sorts of student organizations there's amazing yeah yeah that's weird that that is like a
01:14:26 ◼ ► that's weird we had a nice corner office i hope they're still there i haven't i haven't been in
01:14:30 ◼ ► touch with anybody at the triangle for a long time but but we spent all the money on expensive
01:14:34 ◼ ► macintosh hardware and we had it's a nerdy engineering school and so we had a very good
01:14:42 ◼ ► land for ourselves and we'd upgrade the ethernet whenever we could so we had i don't know a eight
01:15:01 ◼ ► blowing blowing each other i want to do that now don't you want to do that now until you realize
01:15:07 ◼ ► like i don't want to be up no i don't want to be up on that i don't know that i like that i like
01:15:12 ◼ ► the vibe of it but like the actual effort put in is like it was just amazingly fun and it was just a
01:15:17 ◼ ► tremendously fun game multiplayer like that with some great levels yeah and including the mouse
01:15:23 ◼ ► look thing i don't remember the names of the levels but my favorite level was this one where
01:15:29 ◼ ► anybody played it was sort of like a big big arena with a stage in the middle and that stage was where
01:15:37 ◼ ► the best weapons would appear and so you'd you'd end there like these snipers coming down yeah and
01:15:43 ◼ ► there'd be teleport spots where you'd try to teleport up there and that's where you'd go to
01:15:46 ◼ ► get the weapons and then you'd have to like do quick jump off but meanwhile people would position
01:15:52 ◼ ► themselves up in the you know like uh in the the last batman movie when bain sent him to some weird
01:15:59 ◼ ► jail over in the middle east he had a climb up it was like that type of circular long you know yeah
01:16:10 ◼ ► and one of the weapons was a rocket launcher so you could just get up there point your rocket
01:16:17 ◼ ► launcher where you knew the best weapons would spawn on that stage down below and then boom just
01:16:23 ◼ ► blow people apart the second they got there it was so fun because and and it was one it was a
01:16:30 ◼ ► game where the more you had memorized the maps and you knew all the spawn locations the respawn the
01:16:36 ◼ ► other thing that you could do is you could take a guess when you killed somebody guess where they
01:16:42 ◼ ► might respawn and already point there and that was the that was like the best would be like let's say
01:16:47 ◼ ► i killed you and then i've still got the rocket launcher and i take a guess where you might appear
01:16:55 ◼ ► and i'm already aimed there and then lo and behold i guessed right boom you're dead again
01:17:06 ◼ ► realizing that you are a jackass oh i was the worst capper man you're just capping yeah that's
01:17:11 ◼ ► yeah and i think that's the wrong way i'm not surprised but that is satisfying when you're like
01:17:17 ◼ ► you feel like you're in the zone like okay kill this guy i know he's gonna come back here yeah
01:17:21 ◼ ► yeah hit him with another rocket and the and you've got no chance you literally there's
01:17:26 ◼ ► nothing you could do you could be the best marathon player in the world and there's nothing
01:17:30 ◼ ► you could do if the half a second after you respawn there's already a rocket coming right
01:17:36 ◼ ► at your face because you can time it you know how long they'll take you respond if i fire now
01:17:41 ◼ ► he'll just he'll teleport right in front of it yeah yeah so you know the way the kids today like
01:17:46 ◼ ► when they're uh playing the fortnite or those games and they they pay the money to get the
01:17:50 ◼ ► dance moves and stuff like that that they can do but when you were playing in a land in a room
01:17:56 ◼ ► all together you would just stand up and do the dance for real and just put your finger right in
01:18:01 ◼ ► the guy i mean it's amazing i didn't get beaten up i mean frankly yeah yeah i mean that's like
01:18:07 ◼ ► a lifelong well anyway anyway what are we talking about man marathon it's coming back it's but it's
01:18:13 ◼ ► coming back in an entirely new it's like they're using bungee is using the intellectual property
01:18:19 ◼ ► from marathon to make a new game it's called an extraction something i don't know it sounds to me
01:18:26 ◼ ► like you play it's sort of like a more like a fortnite type thing but fortnite is 20 randos
01:18:31 ◼ ► around the world get put on an island together and the last person alive wins these extraction games
01:18:38 ◼ ► i think it's like you have to you have to get to like a certain point on the map and maybe there's
01:18:42 ◼ ► two teams or something like that and capture the flag capture the i don't think yeah i think that
01:18:47 ◼ ► the i don't know the class of the the names of them there was a star wars game like that though
01:18:52 ◼ ► that i think i i think this might be modeled after you could be like hans solo or darth the
01:18:58 ◼ ► bigger yeah maybe maybe that was it i didn't play it i watched jonas play it but anyway marathon's
01:19:04 ◼ ► coming back in name only maybe it'll be fun i don't know but the sad part about it is what
01:19:09 ◼ ► you said it's it and it's sony sony bought bungee bungee went from being a mac only this is where
01:19:16 ◼ ► it's sad from a mac users part they used to make only heartbreaking they used to make mac mac games
01:19:22 ◼ ► only and they made the best mac games and were like the only company making games that if you
01:19:27 ◼ ► could get a pc user's attention they would say uh-huh that actually does look like a good game
01:19:31 ◼ ► they halo was going to debut as a mac game just like marathon but then a small company named
01:19:39 ◼ ► microsoft bought bungee but then halo became what mario is to nintendo platforms halo was to the x
01:19:46 ◼ ► box it was the exclusive and it got me honestly that's the reason i bought at the original i
01:19:52 ◼ ► bought the original xbox in 99 or 2000 whatever year it came out instead of buying whatever the
01:19:58 ◼ ► playstation 2 or whatever the playstation was of the time because i wanted halo i knew i wanted it
01:20:04 ◼ ► because i knew i loved marathon it did come out for the mac eventually halo but it was bad i played
01:20:10 ◼ ► it on my mac and it was support by another company it was fine it was good but it uh didn't have that
01:20:16 ◼ ► magic yeah bungee's got magic when they put their heart into something it's magic and i i can't just
01:20:26 ◼ ► you know you feel like the mac people at bungee would have put some great mac twist on it in some
01:20:32 ◼ ► weird way yeah for reasons i still don't understand microsoft sold bungee eventually and now sony owns
01:20:38 ◼ ► bungee it seems weird given that microsoft is interested in buying ea they obviously want to
01:20:45 ◼ ► own intellectual property and game studios and we want to spend microsoft's trying to buy it
01:20:50 ◼ ► wait does ea no well what's the parent company of ea whatever no no it's activision you're thinking
01:20:57 ◼ ► of oh yeah that's right activision is but doesn't activision own ea do they oh whatever man
01:21:13 ◼ ► the thing where yeah you're right it's activision i don't know why yeah okay okay and it's a weird
01:21:18 ◼ ► whatever it shows what a dummy i am at remembering names it's activision of course but anyway no no
01:21:24 ◼ ► i'm also but they're but yeah they want to activate but some but for some reason they want
01:21:28 ◼ ► to spend 68 billion dollars to buy activision but didn't want to keep bungee and now sony owns bungee
01:21:34 ◼ ► and destiny is beloved and now they're coming out with this new marathon game and it's only
01:21:39 ◼ ► going to be for playstation xbox and pc boo but i guess i understand why right it would have been
01:21:46 ◼ ► well would have been awesome if they said and mac but i guess the other thing that's do a great job
01:21:53 ◼ ► of like courting game developers i really don't i like apple arcade i do but one of the big
01:22:05 ◼ ► i worked at ubisoft at like the beginning of my career was all in video games and i was at ubisoft
01:22:10 ◼ ► at one point and the console makers have very strict hig like a human interface guideline
01:22:16 ◼ ► and they will reject you if you don't comply with it like if you in every game button x does
01:22:23 ◼ ► y like it does it and and you don't need to be the instructions it's just i i'm on my xbox i know if
01:22:29 ◼ ► i do this it's going to do an affirmative action if i do that it's not the menus work a certain
01:22:34 ◼ ► way everything kind of has a formula like a hig and it's good apple lets people bring their games
01:22:41 ◼ ► over but doesn't really provide a hig for what the game should do really and so they're kind of like
01:22:48 ◼ ► all over the map and they don't feel unified as as a concept this is under apple arcade
01:22:53 ◼ ► games not under apple arcade just want to upsell you but it's horrible like well it's it's just
01:23:00 ◼ ► seems like a mess of all kinds of stuff apple arcade is good but i wish they'd have a stronger
01:23:04 ◼ ► communication and a stronger opinion when dealing with game developers which i think would be of
01:23:10 ◼ ► their platform and courting them and listening to them sort of the same way that they i don't want
01:23:15 ◼ ► them to don't want them they've clearly succeeded in television and i think succeeding in games in a
01:23:22 ◼ ► similar way would really work for the company and i think they're going to need to hire some outside
01:23:27 ◼ ► people in order to help them achieve that if that's even something they want to achieve
01:23:33 ◼ ► well hold that thought let's shift to the headset where i think maybe that's where that might go but
01:23:39 ◼ ► let's hold that thought and let me thank our third and final sponsor of the show our good friends at
01:23:43 ◼ ► collide k o l i d e they've got big news if you're an octa user they can get your entire fleet of
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01:24:50 ◼ ► and most importantly 100 fleet compliance visit collide.com the talk show to learn more or book
01:24:59 ◼ ► a demo that's k o l i d e collide.com slash the talk show all right onward to the headset and i
01:25:09 ◼ ► think games are a good segue yeah because we're gonna find out what apple thinks the answer to
01:25:16 ◼ ► the question what it okay we get it it's ahead you know they're making a headset or apparently
01:25:21 ◼ ► i mean again we could all be in for a big surprise in a week right i i don't expect that to happen i
01:25:28 ◼ ► really i think somebody inside apple would have started spreading the word to stop expecting a
01:25:34 ◼ ► headset by now so let's just yeah i mean that notion's come up a few times right which is
01:25:39 ◼ ► i forget if it was jason on the show i basically i'm just here to pitch previous episodes of this
01:25:43 ◼ ► show but yeah basically if things are getting out of hand in terms of expectations it behooves it
01:25:52 ◼ ► behooves apple to be like hey guess what like just chill out because don't get too excited so if if
01:25:58 ◼ ► the other if we spend all this podcast time talking about the expectation of a headset next
01:26:02 ◼ ► week and it doesn't come it's not us who look foolish it's apple at this point yes right
01:26:10 ◼ ► exactly also i don't i don't i don't want to talk about it and i'll tell you why a i think you and
01:26:16 ◼ ► jason covered it really well i love the sports stuff i know a friend chris parish and you and
01:26:21 ◼ ► i were all texting about similar stuff earlier with regards to soccer rather than baseball
01:26:26 ◼ ► seeing games up front is cool i like all of that notion who knows what's going to happen what i
01:26:34 ◼ ► i am interested in is not the specifics of the product which eventually if it exists we'll see
01:26:41 ◼ ► it it'll be announced soon enough so what's the point in really drawing on that i think that that
01:26:45 ◼ ► gun has been covered is what new ways of interacting with computers have we do we expect
01:26:54 ◼ ► not just with this potential device but i think the humane stuff fits into this too where the
01:27:03 ◼ ► company the company humane you're saying the company humane yes right where and i know they're
01:27:07 ◼ ► drastically different concepts at this point but effectively if you forget whatever the specifics
01:27:12 ◼ ► are going to be like quinn did a great job you've had a really great you're well up until i'm sorry
01:27:18 ◼ ► you stuck with me this week you've had it you've had it you've had a great long run you should
01:27:22 ◼ ► definitely get joanna back on because she's amazing but i appreciate it see the mere moles just filling
01:27:27 ◼ ► it out quinn was a me quinn nelson was awesome though it was awesome yeah it was great yeah i
01:27:31 ◼ ► love it i haven't listened to last week but i i'm sure they're great too the the notion of the
01:27:38 ◼ ► humane device is one that does not require a phone and it's sort of as presented fits in the lapel
01:27:46 ◼ ► pocket and project stuff i guess my i take on this and and potential glasses are that computing
01:27:54 ◼ ► becomes an environmental factor like if it's not clipped onto your label lapel but it's you've got
01:27:59 ◼ ► like four of them scattered around like aerotatics in your kitchen whatever you address it'll project
01:28:03 ◼ ► something and you can interact with or it's on your glasses and you can see wherever in the world
01:28:08 ◼ ► that you happen to be this is sort of an ambient computing kind of take with connectivity and ai
01:28:17 ◼ ► hopefully providing input in terms of like being able to understand what it is you want and output
01:28:24 ◼ ► in terms of being able to hopefully find you an answer i think maybe let's put aside the
01:28:29 ◼ ► caveats about how ai just makes shit up sometimes and and and assume that that's going to be okay
01:28:36 ◼ ► i don't to be perfectly honest i'm not sure that that's a good assumption but let's just assume
01:28:41 ◼ ► that the people developing this technology think that that's going to be okay and so both either
01:28:48 ◼ ► having glasses or humane style device leads to an ambient computing sort of experience and what is
01:28:54 ◼ ► that what does that mean like what what's different like where where's the world in 10 years not like
01:29:02 ◼ ► hey in six months are we going to pay x amount of dollars for a couple of either a humane device or
01:29:08 ◼ ► some potential glasses well you know that i always walk around with a notebook in my back pocket
01:29:12 ◼ ► right i'm a field notes junkie and i i just it it's a decades-long habit at this point where
01:29:18 ◼ ► something comes to my mind or i was like wait i got to do these three things today don't let
01:29:24 ◼ ► me forget them i've been using it during this conversation i do i uh yeah but we're on camera
01:29:31 ◼ ► by the way yeah but but it is something that i have to think about i think oh there's something
01:29:36 ◼ ► i want to write down i want to make sure i go to the dry cleaner before the end of the day i take
01:29:39 ◼ ► out my notebook i write it down and that's like in a broad analogy that's like what computers have
01:29:45 ◼ ► been like at this point like oh i want to do something on a computer let me open my laptop
01:29:48 ◼ ► and start typing let me take my phone out of my pocket and tap tap tap ambient computing is more
01:29:54 ◼ ► like if you had somebody following you around who's writing everything down on a notebook
01:29:59 ◼ ► all the time and you don't have to do it and then you're like you just turned your assistant like
01:30:04 ◼ ► what where where the hell did i have lunch last tuesday and they're like flip flip flip through
01:30:08 ◼ ► the pages oh you had lunch at shake shack and it's like oh yeah that's right but it's it's just there
01:30:14 ◼ ► right and it yeah it and yes it is technology is always surprising when it comes to fruition and
01:30:22 ◼ ► and however visionary our science fiction authors of decades past were they always miss some things
01:30:31 ◼ ► nobody can foresee it and it's like nobody really foresaw like what how what if ai becomes a real
01:30:38 ◼ ► thing and a practical thing people can use and it's really dumb like nobody nobody envisioned
01:30:44 ◼ ► that nobody envisioned everybody's everybody's idea was that the ais no matter what whether
01:30:49 ◼ ► they went bad or they didn't go bad that they were they were smarter than the humans right and you
01:30:55 ◼ ► know c3po how 9 000 had a plan right he was like i'm going to get him out of the shift i'm going
01:31:01 ◼ ► to close the door it's going to be it made sense he was yeah he was how was very smart c3po is very
01:31:07 ◼ ► smart and it was original to think well what if what if he's a bit annoying what if he's a bit of a
01:31:13 ◼ ► worry wart and and you know ultimately he is a know-it-all it's not that he he's dumb it's not
01:31:19 ◼ ► that he doesn't know thing he's just he's a know-it-all yeah and what if an r2 was what what
01:31:23 ◼ ► if r2 what if there's a robot and all it can do is beep but is very sarcastic and there's a bit of
01:31:28 ◼ ► his cocky smart ass but he was smart right there was nobody envisioned the idea that what what if
01:31:33 ◼ ► the ai comes and it's just really dumb you can spend five minutes with it and convince it to
01:31:38 ◼ ► two plus two equals five you know what i mean like people have done that yeah but it's where we're
01:31:43 ◼ ► going right and the headset is will be the first step or one of the first steps i still say i
01:31:49 ◼ ► air air air pods are are one of those steps right exactly exactly that's kind of where i'm going
01:31:55 ◼ ► with that is like it's sort of sure vr ar stuff is possibly a product it's definitely this humane
01:32:02 ◼ ► thing as demonstrated at least seems to be the same kind of thing but ultimately the the mechanism
01:32:08 ◼ ► through which be it air pods or whatever other kind of stuff is incidental to the actual experience
01:32:14 ◼ ► of i can just get stuff projected in front of my eyes whether it's from a projector in the room or
01:32:19 ◼ ► like something that i'm wearing or ambient noise detection in my my air pods which i the
01:32:25 ◼ ► transparency mode in air pods are is pretty incredible like it'll dampen out a whole bunch
01:32:29 ◼ ► of stuff but like when i'm about to get hit by something i i know it it doesn't happen because
01:32:34 ◼ ► i know that it's there like it i i forget that it's on all the time and i use them as a pedestrian in
01:32:39 ◼ ► a big city with lots of traffic all the time yeah and i think as like a truck goes by or a bus
01:32:45 ◼ ► goes by and i hear it i think oh i should put transparency on and then i hold it to put
01:32:49 ◼ ► transparency on and then i hear what really is going on in the real world i was like oh it was
01:32:54 ◼ ► on and that was just letting me know it's yeah it's fantastic it's really really good but it
01:32:59 ◼ ► really is it disappears right then it's exactly that is ambient computing where you literally
01:33:05 ◼ ► forget you're using it you're supposed to forget you're using it when you're using them on an
01:33:10 ◼ ► airplane and you've got the noise cancellation on you just completely forget that airplanes are very
01:33:16 ◼ ► noisy you know that the white noise the baseline white noise on an airplane is really high and you
01:33:21 ◼ ► just completely forget it i because i one thing i always do is i always take them out when i go
01:33:26 ◼ ► to take a leak on an airplane because i'm super duper quadruple that's the last place you want
01:33:32 ◼ ► to lose an airplane they never fall out of my ears i've never i i every once in a while they'll
01:33:36 ◼ ► fall out on the sidewalk i've never lost one but i just know murphy's law says the the most likely
01:33:42 ◼ ► place would be like i'm halfway through a piss and the airplane hit some turbulence am i right
01:33:48 ◼ ► today flight ground against john grubber got his arms stuck in yeah oh no i'd i'd kiss it goodbye
01:33:54 ◼ ► that's for sure 0.0 chance that i'm fishing an uh air pod out of there but i you know i worried
01:34:02 ◼ ► i guess those those airplane toilets they have a real powerful sort of vacuum flush but i'd be
01:34:07 ◼ ► worried that it would just be sitting there and i couldn't flush it down and the next guy would come
01:34:10 ◼ ► in and be like uh-oh an air pod yeah so the thing is it's like sure games obviously make sense but i
01:34:18 ◼ ► feel like games are sorry for the headset games we know what that is right and so the next kind of
01:34:24 ◼ ► thing is well what is an ar an ar is not just glasses it's not ears it it is really sort of
01:34:40 ◼ ► which is it's just constantly competing with you which presupposes or is predicated upon the notion
01:34:46 ◼ ► of constantly recording stuff which is creepy and i i guess my thesis is that apple's investment
01:34:56 ◼ ► both in terms of technology and in terms of communication in privacy over the past many
01:35:02 ◼ ► many years in their brand right advertising it's their brand now right there's billboards within
01:35:09 ◼ ► the apple logo and a lock on top do you have often you mutilate your logo yeah not often
01:35:14 ◼ ► all right they do it with a lock because they want you to know and i think that in terms of
01:35:19 ◼ ► whatever product lines you watch you watch it's like also like inherently very personal
01:35:24 ◼ ► information the notion that like in order to achieve or to be trusted in this new space of
01:35:31 ◼ ► more ambient computing you must take this very very cultural signifier seriously and i think you
01:35:39 ◼ ► can come out with products that are maybe cool or interesting but unless you've built trust over
01:35:46 ◼ ► years it's going to be a very difficult sell yeah i'm i'm super excited at this point i know it's
01:35:52 ◼ ► clear from the last couple episodes of the show and jason and i talked about it and i've talked
01:35:56 ◼ ► about it with molts and other people and quinn quinn especially is one of the reasons i had him
01:36:00 ◼ ► on because he did such a good video projecting some of these ideas of what you could do i'm i'm
01:36:06 ◼ ► i'm still i'm super duper curious what apple's answer to that question is but at this point
01:36:11 ◼ ► if it's sufficiently good hardware and the latency's low i can imagine that all sorts of
01:36:16 ◼ ► things are going to be really cool and useful on on a headset i really am i do i wonder i mean and
01:36:23 ◼ ► the weird thing about apple and gaming is as much as the mac is perhaps as little relevant to overall
01:36:32 ◼ ► pc gaming as it's ever been i mean i i think that's on it yeah certainly it's funny because
01:36:38 ◼ ► it's it's more capable than it's ever been more capable at the nadir of like right actually having
01:36:44 ◼ ► games on it you name the games that people who consider themselves gamers are playing and the
01:36:49 ◼ ► number of them that are available on the mac is you count them on one hand i think maybe even
01:36:55 ◼ ► even if you've lost a couple fingers and in a lawnmower accident you still might be able to
01:37:00 ◼ ► count them on one hand yet apple is arguably maybe the most profitable gaming company in the world
01:37:06 ◼ ► with the iphone right yeah i don't even i i'm i'm not looking up the numbers i may not even be close
01:37:13 ◼ ► i mean honestly and and there are so there's there is a lot of game source code out there that is
01:37:21 ◼ ► targeted towards apple silicon but it's on the phone and does that translate that's a market
01:37:27 ◼ ► thing i mean so well it is it is a market thing right yeah i mean so yeah that's kind of what
01:37:32 ◼ ► it's going you know this i'm not as public as it used to be but at one point back in the early
01:37:37 ◼ ► iphone days i worked on tap tap revenge which was a right big hit and uh basically a dance dance
01:37:43 ◼ ► revolution style game on the phone slash guitar hero type guitar hero that that style sort of you
01:37:49 ◼ ► know like midi notes would come down you tap them and it was it was a sensation it really i'm not
01:37:54 ◼ ► saying that just because you worked on it i mean it was absolutely a sensation yeah it really
01:38:00 ◼ ► blew my mind yeah in fact the company tactically set up getting bought by disney right so that's
01:38:04 ◼ ► cool i still get emails from disney telling me about just dumb internal stuff anyway long story
01:38:11 ◼ ► short games were cool and yet never really the focus i like one of my proudest moments is jobs
01:38:20 ◼ ► on stage playing tap tap revenge when multitasking was added it's like hey look i can get out of this
01:38:26 ◼ ► dumb game and go do something useful and then come back and the game is still there that was the demo
01:38:30 ◼ ► of multitasking i don't like that's very steve jobs and i i like that but it's i don't think
01:38:37 ◼ ► the company's ever really had a strong advocate for games and i i i think it is a testament to how
01:38:44 ◼ ► well constructed and and the culture of the company that they've had so many long-term managers
01:38:51 ◼ ► and and they have adapted in so many ways to the changing environment in terms of computing and in
01:38:56 ◼ ► terms of the capabilities of the chips in terms of software in terms of the internet and at the same
01:39:01 ◼ ► time none of these people at games and i don't really play games i play fifa every now and then
01:39:06 ◼ ► but it's like we i'm not and you're not one of those people that goes and plays land parties
01:39:10 ◼ ► anymore but there are people there and in terms to advancing in games i think you need an advocate
01:39:16 ◼ ► for that kind of thing well maybe it's shiller though i mean and again i did i it's not like
01:39:21 ◼ ► phil shiller calls me up a month before wwc and tells me what's on the agenda quite the opposite
01:39:27 ◼ ► but we do know i don't even know i think we know this from the epic lawsuit it came out in
01:39:31 ◼ ► testimony that phil shiller number one he knows a lot more about games than you might think and he
01:39:36 ◼ ► has yeah like a i don't know if it simulates f1 specifically but like a race a vr race car
01:39:42 ◼ ► simulator in his house that's cool like imagine what phil shiller money could buy you in terms of
01:39:47 ◼ ► how nice it's probably you know what i mean like it's probably got like a really nice steering
01:39:51 ◼ ► wheel it's not just like phil shiller money without steve bomber taste right steve bomber
01:39:56 ◼ ► would just buy right an f1 car and race it himself like yeah stark no you know it you know phil's
01:40:02 ◼ ► setup looks good too like it looks good even before you're playing it as high level as anybody
01:40:07 ◼ ► at apple can get who's obviously got a keen interest in and experience with vr gaming i
01:40:15 ◼ ► guess the other thing i would just i don't want to focus too much on games just with the headset but
01:40:19 ◼ ► i do think it's got to be a huge part of the story and in one sense i guess the way i'm looking at it
01:40:24 ◼ ► is that old axiom that if you're going to be the upstart and take over the entrenched incumbent you
01:40:33 ◼ ► can't just be 2x better you've got to be 10x better it's not a magic number if you could put
01:40:39 ◼ ► a number on it and it's actually 8.5x better well that's closer it rounds up to 10 but you've got to
01:40:44 ◼ ► be like roughly an order of magnitude better where apple's strength in gaming is clearly on handheld
01:40:50 ◼ ► phones right and men one level up probably ipad i'll bet the second by far the second most amount
01:40:58 ◼ ► of money they get from app store gaming revenue is on the ipad not apple tv or mac and that's the
01:41:04 ◼ ► phone is even the biggest phone iphone you could buy is a relatively small really relatively small
01:41:12 ◼ ► viewport it's less immersive because it comes back to i think i was talking about it with
01:41:18 ◼ ► snell recently about how immersive going to a real movie theater is because the screen is so big there
01:41:25 ◼ ► is a psychological aspect to it that it makes it more immersive than watching on your tv at home
01:41:31 ◼ ► no matter how big your tv is it just is your your mind gets full pc gaming with a big pc gaming
01:41:39 ◼ ► monitor right in front of you is way more immersive than gaming on a phone because it's
01:41:44 ◼ ► a bigger screen and you've got better controls but what can be more immersive than even the
01:41:49 ◼ ► nicest display in front of you is ahead that your whole field of view right and and that could
01:41:56 ◼ ► simulate the illusion that you're looking at reality you know that it's not a big 35 inch
01:42:05 ◼ ► display in front of you it's literally the world it's that immersive so to me if apple's ambition
01:42:11 ◼ ► is to become like a leading gamer gaming platform not just a casual gaming platform i honestly it
01:42:20 ◼ ► would make sense strategically to say you know what we lost this battle with the pc class gaming
01:42:25 ◼ ► let's go to the next thing which is full immersion of vr that would make sense to me and then all of
01:42:34 ◼ ► a sudden instead of the mac versus the pc it's okay you're stuck on a pc looking at a stupid
01:42:39 ◼ ► display or you've got one of these janky headsets for that are out there for pcs attached to it like
01:42:45 ◼ ► a playstation right which are i mean they're great they look great i don't have one but yeah well
01:42:50 ◼ ► like i said i said last yeah but like i said last week in terms of how how much he's attached to it
01:42:56 ◼ ► he didn't even take it to college with him he took he did take his playstation didn't take the headset
01:43:01 ◼ ► i mean that's that's how much he cares about the headset what about star wars squadrons a while
01:43:05 ◼ ► ago i don't know when it came out uh which is guess what you fly an x-wing or a tie fighter
01:43:10 ◼ ► but it supports the headset and i like the game but i never even bought the headset i was like
01:43:16 ◼ ► okay well i'm not really called to spend that much extra money i i do think that vr is a distinctly
01:43:26 ◼ ► different thing than ar right oh wow and one of the great things that they do have going in
01:43:32 ◼ ► to their advantage just i mean all of all of mac os and ios devices except the watch i guess
01:43:40 ◼ ► support game controllers right so whatever if they strap something to your face and you can use a
01:43:46 ◼ ► game controller that's great obviously there are playstation games where you can interact more
01:43:51 ◼ ► physically in the environment but i feel like if you're on a long-haul flight you're not going to
01:43:56 ◼ ► get up and dancing out the cabin imagine flailing your arms while you're sitting there and you're
01:44:01 ◼ ► like slapping the guy next to you in the face yeah right yeah you're getting you're getting
01:44:06 ◼ ► ejected pretty quick yeah i do like you're you're knocking your own drink off your your seat seat
01:44:11 ◼ ► tray table no you need like right you want your hands to stay still and and be i think there's
01:44:16 ◼ ► two different experiences there i think there was an experience like at least for the for the
01:44:19 ◼ ► things that i've tried the the vr the playstation stuff and the oculus there is an experience where
01:44:27 ◼ ► you are part of the world and your whole body is sort of incorporated into it and that's one thing
01:44:32 ◼ ► there's also a concept of like oh it's just a giant ass screen in front of your face like
01:44:37 ◼ ► is that like the game boy worked great because you could just sit there and play it and it was fun and
01:44:46 ◼ ► it was pretty compact he didn't you could sit play it on the bus i don't know if you've seen
01:44:49 ◼ ► that tesla's movie but man it's pretty good i did no i did see the tesla's movie i loved it it was
01:44:54 ◼ ► i was interestingly it it's not what i expected it is not a spy thriller but it's not not a spy
01:45:01 ◼ ► thriller it's not a comedy i like they're driving cars and when they bump they glitch which is
01:45:08 ◼ ► weird like there was some very weird artistic things it may parts of it may as well just be
01:45:12 ◼ ► a stage play like there was his his apartment there was a meeting room and there was maybe his
01:45:17 ◼ ► hotel oh and a club at one point like it's so limited in terms of like what what happens it
01:45:23 ◼ ► the great great movie well great very interesting worth checking out i guess what i'm saying is the
01:45:30 ◼ ► way that you engage with a full you under full immersion can either be a full body experience
01:45:37 ◼ ► or it can just be like a very personal experience one of them requires basically a room that is
01:45:44 ◼ ► padded really how many coffee tables are you going to fall into you know and one of them could be
01:45:51 ◼ ► like a little bit more confined and i think games need to realize like what is this platform or
01:45:59 ◼ ► what's it doing and i i think part of the reason that it's kind of pointless to talk about this
01:46:04 ◼ ► potential device until next week is we don't know we have no idea we can guess all we want but
01:46:11 ◼ ► ultimately it is what is it for who knows like what's the ui who knows who knows what the goal is
01:46:19 ◼ ► is it a game boy that you can sit and just enjoy quietly or is it like clear out your living room
01:46:25 ◼ ► kids where we're going into vr adventure those are very different things and i think ultimately vr is
01:46:34 ◼ ► a stop along the way to like sort of a more augmented reality thing which is where i was
01:46:40 ◼ ► going with the humane devices at the earphones and all yeah i think if it's successful and if
01:46:46 ◼ ► it's ambitious as i suspect it is and you know there's rumors that it's going to cost three
01:46:51 ◼ ► thousand dollars which i know is very expensive for a consumer product but i've as i've said
01:46:56 ◼ ► like inflation adjusted the original macintosh from 1984 it was 2500 then that's like over seven
01:47:03 ◼ ► thousand dollars now just to get a the one and only macintosh i mean in the 90s silicon graphics
01:47:09 ◼ ► and sun workstations it was twenty thousand dollars just to get a computer on your desk on
01:47:13 ◼ ► those platforms and in in that era is money and so i'm not i'm not saying that three thousand
01:47:19 ◼ ► dollar headset is nothing if that's the price but it to me is exciting if it is let's just say it is
01:47:24 ◼ ► three thousand dollars it just means that it's got to be really exciting technology like if if an
01:47:30 ◼ ► iphone 14 pro is a thousand dollars how much cool computing power could three times that be packed
01:47:41 ◼ ► in front of your eyes like by apple's current engineering standards they're not even talking
01:47:46 ◼ ► about the paradigms for how the software is going to work which is the most interesting thing to me
01:47:51 ◼ ► but you know that they've got the silicon chops to do it like they may not have the chops to do it
01:47:57 ◼ ► and sell it for 750 yet that's the five years in the future but if they're going to pack three
01:48:02 ◼ ► thousand dollars of their current this is the best we can do into a headset that should be a really
01:48:08 ◼ ► impressive hardware device like as a computer sure with that much money whatever the build materials
01:48:15 ◼ ► is yeah if they if they yes that totally makes sense but ultimately why like right right i do
01:48:25 ◼ ► you know what i mean it's like could you do that could you strap that much worth of compute onto
01:48:29 ◼ ► your face or whatever it is sure but like the mac and i guess i'm going back to the mac pro the 2023
01:48:36 ◼ ► concept of a macro why what is it you're trying to achieve what is the purpose of this and if you can
01:48:41 ◼ ► sort of glean the purpose which i don't think we can then maybe you can sort of guess of what
01:48:47 ◼ ► technology would be yeah but i don't think that like hey we've got this much tech let's throw it
01:48:55 ◼ ► at somebody or at a device and see what happens i that feels a little initially backwards but
01:49:02 ◼ ► potentially kind of like the watch like hey let's try something and see where it goes and i think
01:49:14 ◼ ► didn't really need the why right everybody had phones and ipods and well but the cute but the
01:49:20 ◼ ► one outlier was like an ipod yeah what was it an ipod a phone and an internet communicator right
01:49:27 ◼ ► and everybody's like oh that's bullshit yeah just one of three you wanted the rule of three guess
01:49:32 ◼ ► what everybody does it's like the third one but for the most part once jobs started demoing it
01:49:38 ◼ ► everybody was just like gimme gimme gimme i need it whereas with the ipad the whole keynote was why
01:49:45 ◼ ► why why did we build this what is the point it was very explicit it wasn't like hinting at why
01:49:50 ◼ ► steve jobs literally said what is the the slide as i recall it was like a macbook on one side
01:49:57 ◼ ► an iphone on the other is there space in the middle for something that is sort of like a phone
01:50:03 ◼ ► and sort of like a laptop we think yes here's why and it was this that the other i would expect that
01:50:11 ◼ ► would be the exact cadence of the headset introduction why i i wouldn't be surprised if
01:50:17 ◼ ► if they actually just come right out and say it the way jobs did like what why would you want to
01:50:24 ◼ ► do this and strap a thing on your face well we've got some answers this that the other that's a that
01:50:31 ◼ ► does make sense and and i think if it's the question is still open for ipad right right
01:50:36 ◼ ► well maybe now what's the point of ipad you like i don't know makes a bunch of money right but i
01:50:41 ◼ ► think which is i'm sure ipad people are very upset with me now but clearly between the the max like
01:50:46 ◼ ► the r max and the phone ipads are getting a little i think i'd say this is somebody who works on ipad
01:50:53 ◼ ► so i think if they're successful it'll be the sort of thing like the the sort of broad foundational
01:51:02 ◼ ► platform where there is no one answer meaning in the same way with the phone like so many people
01:51:10 ◼ ► use their phones in such different ways i mean but my wife hardly uses the camera she she just has
01:51:16 ◼ ► never been a photographer she knows i take family pictures she just doesn't take a lot of pictures
01:51:21 ◼ ► like if you look at her camera roll of pictures she's taken it's it's mostly like products like
01:51:26 ◼ ► things she wants to buy or something like that she just doesn't take photos other people specifically
01:51:33 ◼ ► only upgrade their phones just to get the new camera and hardly use the other features right
01:51:37 ◼ ► i could see the headset being that i i i if it's successful where some people are going to buy it
01:51:42 ◼ ► and it's going to be for for work that they'll put it on and use it as like virtual displays for
01:51:47 ◼ ► their mac or doing stuff so they can have like the equivalent of a desktop display while they're
01:51:52 ◼ ► traveling without carrying one around and they'll never play games they have no interest in it
01:51:56 ◼ ► other people will buy it just for the games and watching movies on airplanes or something like
01:52:01 ◼ ► that and obviously the broader mix of people will be a little bit of everything but i could you know
01:52:05 ◼ ► if it's a really that foundational like the mac and like ios as a platform it'll be for work for
01:52:14 ◼ ► information for entertainment yes not not like one of those things but yes to all of them because
01:52:29 ◼ ► this is if that's true if all of the platforms have basically their their venn diagrams intersect
01:52:38 ◼ ► a lot and they've all got unique capabilities like currently i can use a uh pencil have a pencil on
01:52:43 ◼ ► the ipad that's great ipad's great for a lot of bunch of stuff max are good for a bunch of stuff
01:52:48 ◼ ► the watch is obviously very specific airpods very specific the phone very broad but still really
01:52:54 ◼ ► quite specific in that like you're not going to do a spreadsheet on your phone and maybe this new
01:52:59 ◼ ► device is also like that i feel i'm harping on this a bit but is that not more of a broadening
01:53:09 ◼ ► of computing into not quite ambient but like however you want to access your stuff you can do
01:53:16 ◼ ► it which is an old son so i was like scott mcnally i believe his name was like a you just log into any
01:53:21 ◼ ► computer you get your user account you do your stuff like if i can touch any computer and it
01:53:25 ◼ ► could do anything that i needed to do in any maybe there's better form factors to doing a certain
01:53:31 ◼ ► thing better like do i want to draw with my mouse probably not ipad's good for that is that not just
01:53:38 ◼ ► sort of broadening computing to being like whatever the surface is that you're interacting
01:53:42 ◼ ► with will offer you benefits by its physicality but not necessarily in and of itself like i guess
01:53:52 ◼ ► when you buy an ipad are you buying the ipad or the ability to interact with your software in a
01:54:00 ◼ ► new interesting way it's a very philosophical i was about to say i'm wrapping up here and you're
01:54:07 ◼ ► getting you're getting into philip philip i do think you're right though and i guess i guess the
01:54:13 ◼ ► other thing that's interesting about the headset as a new platform for apple is it's it and i'm not
01:54:20 ◼ ► discounting we just talked about i i think airpods are the first mainstream ar product i think they're
01:54:26 ◼ ► more important and more interesting as computers not as headphones but as computers than most
01:54:31 ◼ ► people give them credit for the watch i don't underestimate at all but again ambient right it's
01:54:37 ◼ ► most of what the watch does isn't you interacting with it most of what the watch does it's just
01:54:41 ◼ ► doing on its own on your wrist when you're not even looking at it keeping track of all your
01:54:45 ◼ ► vitals and your health statistics and stuff like that you have to go back to the ipad for a thing
01:54:51 ◼ ► that you're actually looking at that has a display that's going to have a new set of apis for
01:54:55 ◼ ► developers to write software against it's the first one though the ipad came out in 2010 which
01:55:02 ◼ ► was early days for the i for iCloud and and stuff like that this is the one that's debuting when the
01:55:09 ◼ ► apple broader ecosystem is established and i was going to say millions but i think by apple's count
01:55:17 ◼ ► it's like billion active users are have their data and information and their lot their digital lives
01:55:25 ◼ ► in the apple ecosystem i i think that's a big part of it of of the ambient part of it and i know
01:55:31 ◼ ► people are not going to walk around with this this first headset as it's being rumored that ski goggle
01:55:37 ◼ ► thing they're not going to be out on the sidewalk driving their cars or wearing it all day long it's
01:55:42 ◼ ► not like glasses it's not ar glasses but i really do see obviously that's that's an end point for
01:55:49 ◼ ► where technology is going and in the same way we talked about macro s10 launching with an advanced
01:55:56 ◼ ► window manager years before it was ready getting the ar segment of this off the ground with crude
01:56:05 ◼ ► hardware by ar standards right like 10 years from now when the glasses that show ambient heads-up
01:56:12 ◼ ► displays for everything in your field of vision are commonplace we'll look back at headset 1.0
01:56:18 ◼ ► as as being almost comical in ar because of how it it but it is what it is and to get the software
01:56:27 ◼ ► ecosystem yeah to get people things comical in retrospect like we've just we we love praise upon
01:56:33 ◼ ► marathon right have you played it now yeah it's totally disappointing right i was just watching
01:56:37 ◼ ► a video of it and i was like oh that's it's actually really janky right and the original
01:56:41 ◼ ► original macintosh was really slow and everything in hindsight is slow the the first i thought okay
01:56:47 ◼ ► that's the nature of introducing something new it's always the worst one it's always the worst
01:56:51 ◼ ► one but you've got to start somewhere so anyway i'm excited and you know it again i said this to
01:56:55 ◼ ► jason and i could say to you i'm excited i'll see you next week i know i'm really looking forward
01:57:00 ◼ ► to it yeah it's been a long time well december so not too long yeah i could do with it yeah i
01:57:05 ◼ ► could do with a couple of months off from you to be honest well hopefully we didn't jinx the mac pro
01:57:12 ◼ ► with like we did 10 years ago i don't think he can't jinx it hey hey i loved it that's why i never
01:57:19 ◼ ► got invited back to the life show it's like yeah i got it yeah i got it we got guy anyway i will see
01:57:28 ◼ ► you next literally see you next week next week i will see everyone out there listening i will see
01:57:33 ◼ ► like a thousand of you next week in the california theater i look forward to that you get your
01:57:38 ◼ ► tickets if you don't have one now go just go to daring fireball dot net slash the talk show the
01:57:44 ◼ ► ticket stuff is at the top there i look forward to that so i'll see lots of people i will thank
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