The Talk Show

377: ‘guyenglish.zip’, With Guy English


00:00:00   Guy, it's been a very long time since you've been on the show.

00:00:02   It has, man! I don't... I'm not sure. I don't remember the last time it was on your show.

00:00:07   Oh, but it was probably a Star Wars thing with Sir Akuza.

00:00:10   Yeah, I think... I forget what the topic was,

00:00:11   but I think it was not this January but last January. So time flies.

00:00:17   'Cause at one point we were doing Star Wars movies every year when they would come out

00:00:22   and I think our review of Rise of Skywalker is wrapped up perfectly by us just not,

00:00:29   not only not doing a show, you didn't even text Sir Akuza and I. It's not like...

00:00:33   It's just like nobody cared. Nobody cared to touch that. It just left it.

00:00:37   It pops up on the Mastodon and Twitter and wherever people make suggestions for who should

00:00:42   be on the show and it comes up, "Hey, how about doing a Star Wars to wrap it up?"

00:00:47   I will say, I mean, this is not the Rise of Skywalker episode, which may or may not ever

00:00:55   exist. I will say this, I was so unhappy with that movie that I've literally only seen it once,

00:01:00   which I believe... I'm pretty sure I went to see it opening night. I know it was in the theater

00:01:05   and I know it was at least opening weekend and we watched it and we walked out and

00:01:11   I haven't seen it again. I haven't seen it again.

00:01:15   Oh, all of a sudden the guy who died 20 years ago is still alive and he built 10,000

00:01:24   Star Destroyers and hit them all on a planet and... what?

00:01:28   Does it... I mean, it's not like Star Wars often makes a lot of sense.

00:01:32   Yeah, but that's anti-sense though.

00:01:35   Exactly.

00:01:36   Yeah.

00:01:36   Right. There's rules in a fantasy setting. They're not realistic rules, but you create rules and

00:01:42   10,000 hidden Star Destroyers is not one.

00:01:46   Yeah, with beams that blow up planets. Anyway, whatever. Skip that. We're following

00:01:50   into the chat, man. Forget the...

00:01:52   Here's the better reason to have you on this week, preceding WWDC 2023,

00:01:58   is that I've got my live show coming up, I guess, not a week from today. It'll be a week from today

00:02:07   as the show airs tomorrow, but a week from tomorrow as we record on the 30th.

00:02:12   So get that out of the way. Everybody listening, if you haven't seen me announce it on Daring

00:02:17   Fireball, tickets are available. It'll be Wednesday, June 7th, back at the very lovely,

00:02:24   I mean that no sarcasm, it's a wonderful, wonderful theater in California theater in San Jose, the big

00:02:29   1100 seat old theater in San Jose on Wednesday of WWDC week at five o'clock. Tickets are available,

00:02:37   selling briskly, probably going to be sold out soon, but probably not by the time the show airs,

00:02:43   so anybody who wants tickets, go there and get them. But going down memory lane, you were

00:02:50   my guest on the live episode from WWDC 10 years ago, that's 2013, which was the year the

00:03:00   Mac Pro, what do we call that Mac Pro? Colloquially known the trash can. That's a shame. I really,

00:03:09   I don't like calling it. I knew that that's what we were going to wind up calling it, but yeah.

00:03:14   I mean, it looks like a trash can, which is fine. So I think, yes, so we were on stage there. We had

00:03:22   Scott Simpson and Amy and Paul Kaposas was up there too. It was a good gang. This was prior to

00:03:26   you getting great guests. You were like making do with me and Scott.

00:03:31   Well, it shows how time has changed. Not that I wouldn't love to have you on stage with me,

00:03:39   either, but I do believe... Oh man, that would be such a disappointment.

00:03:42   It's just me and Moltz. I heard Jason lick. I haven't heard the most recent episode,

00:03:46   but Jason was saying just him and Moltz on stage. I would love that. That would be great.

00:03:50   Look, you're my favorite people. But whoever, if you ever run dry for like execs at Apple execs

00:03:56   or anything or anybody interesting, and you end up with me and Moltz on stage, there is going to be,

00:04:01   somehow, tomatoes are going to like manifest themselves and just get whipped at the stage.

00:04:06   It's going to be horrible. We have nothing but a letdown.

00:04:10   I'm trying to think. I think that the first one where I had an Apple exec was 2015. I think that's

00:04:18   the... I think so, yeah.

00:04:20   I think that's the I shit you not Phil Schiller, where it went from live shows in a mezzanine. I

00:04:28   forget how many people that place fit. It was weird because it actually had a mess.

00:04:31   It was like 100, 150, I think.

00:04:33   No, it was 100 or 150 downstairs in front of the stage. But the reason that the place was

00:04:38   called mezzanine is it had a mezzanine. And it was like, some of the seats were obstructed,

00:04:44   but they had big TVs that had a live feed so that people could see it.

00:04:47   It was pretty big. I was thinking of Mina, like 111 Mina, maybe?

00:04:52   Yeah, 111 Mina was like the first couple of years, and that place was only like 100

00:04:56   people or something like that.

00:04:57   Yeah, yeah. No, mezzanine was impressive. Like, you could actually pack a room, which,

00:05:02   knowing you surprises me, I guess. I don't know. Is it that interesting? I don't know.

00:05:09   But yeah, no, that's great. And again, I heard you talking to Jason that WWDC is not bringing

00:05:15   the same number, sheer number of people, Sarah, from like 5,000 about when it was up in SF,

00:05:21   and the past couple of years being... I don't know how many. Apple's got 500, maybe a few

00:05:26   hundred in? I'm not sure. But yeah, I'm confident you're going to sell out. I don't know how the

00:05:31   tickets are going. Get them on that link.

00:05:33   I'm looking at the history of it. So 2013 was you and Scott. I forget who else. And then the

00:05:39   next year was the ATP gang. I had Marco, John Siracusa, and what's the third guy's name?

00:05:47   Casey. Casey Liss. Casey Liss. That's it. That's it.

00:05:51   I'm mean enough to Casey Liss.

00:05:54   It is, because I've even had him on the show.

00:05:59   I know. I know. He really holds that show together. He's not that he's the rug from

00:06:03   the Big Lebowski, but he's like, yeah, he does a good job.

00:06:05   But anyway, we did 2013. You were on stage, and the big news of the week at that WWDC was the

00:06:13   then brand new Mac Pro, which was doomed in some ways. But I think it's an interesting place to

00:06:21   start because while everybody is headset, headset, headset, headset for next week, and we'll get to

00:06:27   that. I mean, it's unavoidable at this point, but I think we're going to get a Mac Pro announcement

00:06:34   too. I don't know if it's going to go on sale because the last time when they did the last

00:06:42   Intel one, the one where they brought back the big case and the $1,000 wheels that you could put it

00:06:48   on. The Siracusa special. Right. That was WWDC 2019, the last pre-pandemic WWDC. They introduced

00:06:56   that and it wasn't on sale yet. It was I don't think it went on sale till like late November,

00:07:01   December. They were like later this year, this is coming, but here's what it's going to look like.

00:07:05   We've got one that everybody here at WWDC can come and look at, but not touch. They were like,

00:07:13   don't touch it. Remember? Yeah, they had like an actual case. It was just like, no, they didn't put

00:07:19   it in the glass case like the iPhone years and years ago. But they they did have a very big

00:07:25   security guard there all at all times to make sure nobody touched it. Also, that was where they

00:07:30   debuted the, what do they call it? The studio display XDR or just pro display XDR. Studio

00:07:38   display is the consumer price thing. And yeah, it's the expensive one. So I can see love. I know

00:07:43   you love yours too. Like I'm, I'm, Oh, well, I don't have the XDR. I have the studio display.

00:07:47   No, that's what I mean. Yeah. Yeah. I got the, yeah. I think you've got the nanotech. What are

00:07:51   they called? The nanotexture display. I have to do a year with it review because I love it so much.

00:07:58   And the nanotexture is like magic in my, at certain times of the year, otherwise unusable

00:08:07   desk location in my office. Like until I got this display, no, it's, I'm very serious. And I know

00:08:13   which time it's April and October, right? I know it's April. Cause I just got through it. May,

00:08:20   June, July, August, September, October. Yeah. Six months. So every six months, April and October,

00:08:27   the sun comes through my office in the middle of the afternoon, which is my prime working hours.

00:08:32   And like Raiders of the lost Ark, like, like, like Indiana Jones is down there with the headpiece to

00:08:40   the staff of raw on top of the stick and the sun comes through and hits it and shows the location

00:08:47   of the map room. And just that somehow just follows your cursor. That is for like two weeks

00:08:54   in April and two weeks in October, that is how the sun hits my display. And prior to owning the studio

00:09:00   display XDR, I would just work in the kitchen for two hours. I would just take my laptop and

00:09:06   do something else. And with the nanotexture display, I literally don't even notice at times

00:09:13   until it's like my neck gets hot because the sun's hitting my neck. And I'm like, holy shit,

00:09:19   is that how bright the sun is? And I hold my hand up and I, it, it, that is how much the nanotexture

00:09:25   lets me work. I don't even notice that the sun is hitting the screen. Anyway, that's my

00:09:30   mini review of that. Here's the thing I teed you up for that. Cause we were over at your place

00:09:35   around Christmas time and you showed me your office and you were, you did this basically

00:09:40   not word for word, but you did this little skit about like, yeah, the sun hits it and you show

00:09:44   me the window where it comes in from. Oh, the nanotexture. I, I, yeah, I love mine. I think

00:09:50   it's great. Like the pro thing I think is fundamentally the pro display is a pro display.

00:09:55   I think it's almost foolish to buy it for yourself. I don't know Marco and Suikis,

00:10:01   but that's a different thing. Whenever they want to review it, there's reasons for it.

00:10:05   But I do think that it's, there's diminishing returns for anybody beyond the studios display,

00:10:09   which I find really great. The camera is even fine. I don't really have a major complaint.

00:10:14   Could they make a better camera? Sure. But whatever. I don't care that much. I'm there

00:10:18   for the screen. So yeah. And the speakers are great too. I mean, I know they're not great,

00:10:24   great, but they're better than anything I've had on my desktop. I think since I had those,

00:10:30   remember the sound sticks from yeah. Wait, were they Bose Bose sound sticks? Yeah. It's like that

00:10:36   little alien looking pod for the base thing and like the transparent plastic. Yeah. So at least

00:10:41   since then, which was a very long time ago, and those were actually Amy's and she took them back

00:10:45   from me at some point, but it's the best sound I've had at my desktop since then too. Anyway.

00:10:50   Oh, also I will just add, I'll spoil my whole review. The other big complaint people had is

00:10:55   because the studio display is in fact an iOS device that occasionally gets software updates

00:11:02   and requires a weird reboot cycle. And a year ago when it first came out, like every six weeks

00:11:09   required like a power cycling and it had no power button. And therefore you had to like climb under

00:11:14   my desk and unplug it. But I will say since then, well, what happened the second time I had to climb

00:11:23   under my desk and do it, I was like three strikes in your out. So after two strikes, I bought a $40,

00:11:29   those things are all like 40 bucks. I bought like a $40 home kit plug to put in the plug under my

00:11:36   desk where it goes so that the next time it craps out, instead of climbing into the desk, I could

00:11:43   just go to the home app and restart it with a tap on my finger. I mean, that's how easy, that's how

00:11:49   much I don't like getting down on my knees under the desk. Even though it's not dirty, it's clean.

00:11:56   Still a pain in the ass. Yeah. I'm too good for that. So I'll spend 40 bucks. And Murphy's Law.

00:12:01   On the famously reliable home kit stuff, which is actually, I use it all the time, but like,

00:12:05   I know whatever it fakes out at times. It's hilarious how often we use technology to fix

00:12:10   hitting this adulation of like more and more requirements in order to just turn off the plug.

00:12:17   I did that though. I did that though last summer. I spent the 40 bucks to get the plug.

00:12:21   And ever since I haven't used it once. So as soon as I bought a $40 thing to restart

00:12:29   the studio display, every time it crapped out, it stopped crapping out. There was at least one

00:12:35   firmware update since then, which came with a system update to macOS and then macOS updates

00:12:42   and says, there's an update for your studio display. Yes. Don't touch it. Let it go. But

00:12:47   ever since then, it's been a hundred percent rock solid. It was like the, what happened a year ago

00:12:53   was like the audio would crap out. It would like, it would stop playing audio. And the only way to

00:12:57   fix it was the power cycle. It hasn't happened since. So that complaint, Hey, I wish, I wish

00:13:02   my display were just a dumb display. I don't want to have to restart it every couple of weeks, blah,

00:13:07   blah, blah. I don't have to do that anymore. At this point, I would say for the last like nine,

00:13:13   10 months, it's effectively been indistinguishable from a dumb display that just always works.

00:13:19   So, yeah, I believe that I have had no problems with it. I think I might've had to unplug it once,

00:13:25   but I can't remember why that was. I don't think it was because it was just jammed up. Like the

00:13:30   audio was working fine. Everything, everything seemed to be going okay with me. I sort of pushed

00:13:34   back against that notion that I would just wish it was a dumb display. I mean, so the world monitor

00:13:40   basically just means I'm just monitoring a video feed. I feel like in the best case, you're getting

00:13:44   like a raw tap into what's happening. Displays these days are not monitored. Like there's none

00:13:49   of that. And I think it's a little foolhardy to just say, Hey, just put the bits on the screen.

00:13:54   Cause I think it sort of misses a lot of the work that's done. It's just for color correction and

00:14:00   all kinds of other stuff. You've got a whole bunch of ports back there. Something has to run those

00:14:04   ports. I think because people decided, or it is an iOS derivative, therefore it's more complicated.

00:14:12   That's probably true. And it may have more surface area to break kind of thing, but ultimately

00:14:17   the flexibility gives it all kinds of capabilities that were not, that you would have to get. Like

00:14:25   if it was like an LG display, they're going to, they write software too. It's just janky and

00:14:29   crappy. And you don't think of it like a little computer. It is a little computer though. It is

00:14:33   just a worse little computer. So I don't really know what to tell you these days. Everything has

00:14:37   like a little piece of software in it, which is kind of the current theme that you as you,

00:14:40   you'd come to that all the time. I just think, you know, and I think that the team behind it has done

00:14:45   what you want them to do is sort of look, it's such a smaller surface area of what it does. Then

00:14:53   when iOS is running on an actual iPhone or iPad, or even an Apple TV, the user could be doing

00:14:59   anything. Whereas the sort of iOS as firmware running on something like the studio display,

00:15:07   it only has to do two things or three things, right? It shows pixels on the display and does

00:15:14   color. I'm not saying new scenes are easy, but you know, displays pixels, manages brightness,

00:15:20   does color correction, plays sound through the speakers. And it runs the camera when the camera's

00:15:26   on, or I guess the microphone, right? Microphone, camera, display, sound, power management,

00:15:32   but those, it's a known surface area and it should be very stable. And I would say from about two

00:15:39   months after it started shipping, it's been rock solid stable, which is exactly what you want. So

00:15:44   hats off to the studio display team, a fantastic product that I'm happy to endorse. Anyway,

00:15:52   Mac Pro. Yeah, but this ties into the mic. It cut. Yeah. Well, I remember sitting on the stage

00:15:58   and being really excited about it and I still am. I still think that I'm a bit of a weirdo though.

00:16:03   I like the Mac cube. I like the Mac. I did too. I didn't own one, but it was only cause I couldn't

00:16:08   afford it at the time. I love the Mac. Yeah. The original MacBook Air was like really kind of a

00:16:14   crazy expensive, but you could spend even more money and get the SSD in it, which at the time

00:16:18   was like mind boggling. I found the Mac Pro 2013 to be one of those cool products that had like

00:16:25   a real vision about how things are going to work and what they're going to double down on. They've

00:16:30   got one board full of like pretty high end Intel chips at the time, two boards full of like pretty

00:16:35   high end AMD chips, sorry, ATI chips. And it was cool. And it had a fan in the middle. I love

00:16:42   turning it around and having the lights light up on the back. It just like the, the plugs, the

00:16:48   sockets glow, which is cool, dumb, but a fun little neat trick. I like the way you can slide

00:16:54   off the top of the case. I like the concept of the computer. I like the vision that they had

00:17:00   for how it would scale and go forward. And then it didn't, and it didn't for any number of reasons,

00:17:07   like the Intel chips were hot, getting the new GPUs was hot, like fitting more and more next level or

00:17:13   next generation stuff into that casing proved to be like famously the thermal corner. I admire them

00:17:20   for trying that computer. I think that was very cool. I think that was the one that Schiller said,

00:17:24   you can't innovate anymore my ass. I think it was. Yeah. Yeah. I I'm, I'm with him. I think that's,

00:17:30   that's bang on great work. I think the 2019 Mac pro is amazing and incredible, but hardly is

00:17:40   innovative in terms of like, let's try a drastically new kind of take on things.

00:17:45   Right. I think that there's sort of a very, at least from 2013 onward, but probably going back

00:17:54   to like 2008, which I think was when the proceeding Mac pro had shipped the one that

00:18:01   Syria, the one that the one that Syracuse, so you wound up using for like 40 years. Right. Yeah.

00:18:06   Which was also a big case, right? A big sort of traditional case prior to that, prior to 2008,

00:18:16   the compute the importance of the Mac to Apple and the overall Mac market was such that it was still

00:18:25   the, the tailwinds of like the eighties and nineties where pro computers were like half

00:18:37   of Apple sales, right? Just the whole era before laptops taking over the industry where desktops

00:18:43   were actually laptops were the niche that were more expensive and people only spent,

00:18:49   you'd spend a couple extra thousand dollars to get a laptop with comparable specs to the same,

00:18:55   what you could get for the desktop with the same specs. And so the desktop was the main computers,

00:19:02   every company sold, including Apple. And some of them were pro and some of them weren't.

00:19:06   And then everything started shifting to laptops for all the obvious reasons,

00:19:11   just once the performance. Yeah. More convenient and the performance was there and the price came

00:19:17   down to the same consumer level prices. I mean, for now, one more applications were on the web now,

00:19:24   right? So you didn't need quite as much local power to do your outlook. You start like your

00:19:29   calendars, your Gmail, like that kind of stuff. I mean, honestly, it's like, and putting aside

00:19:34   all the thermal advantages and performance at price or performance per watt advantages of Apple

00:19:39   Silicon, even on the PC side with Intel, I mean, it's been decades now where it's no big deal to

00:19:46   put a fine or even very nice PC into a laptop. Whereas in the 90s, that was incredibly expensive.

00:19:56   You remember all those ads for the bunny suits and the Pentium with a snail, like a snail with

00:20:03   a Pentium on the back when Apple was really shit talking Intel all the time. I did. They can't

00:20:10   enchant, shouldn't do it now, but like I kind of missed the shit talking version of Apple,

00:20:14   which was pretty funny with the power PC stuff, despite kind of getting creamed in a lot of ways.

00:20:19   Like the G5 was pretty cool, could not fit in a laptop, which just wasn't going to happen.

00:20:24   Right. Never. We are right. And that was really what prompted the switch when Jobs announced the

00:20:29   switch to Intel. It was basically, look, I told you two years ago, we were going to put the G5 in

00:20:34   a laptop and we couldn't do it. And therefore we're switching. Here's why. But I think that

00:20:39   the mismatch that's happened post 2008, starting with the trashcan in 2013, is that there's a

00:20:47   sizable segment of pro Mac users who just want the most performance they can get for whatever

00:20:54   the reason of what they're doing, whether they're aerospace engineers doing complex models of

00:20:59   wing designs for new airplanes or developers with really complex, mind-bendingly complex

00:21:08   Xcode projects with just massive, massive dependencies and very long, if you do like

00:21:14   a totally clean build, really long build cycle. There's precious few of those. I mean, there's

00:21:19   Apple's pro stuff. There's Photoshop, I suppose, but there's big apps out there, but there's not

00:21:27   that many people who really need to crunch that much stuff. The Swift compiler, people love the

00:21:32   Swift language. The Swift compiler though is relatively slow compared to most other compilers.

00:21:37   And it's just a trade off that you get a language that developers like more or even love and has

00:21:46   these things. And it just making the language nicer for developers almost always makes it

00:21:52   harder for the compiler. I think that's one of the classic computer trade-offs, like memory and speed,

00:21:59   you pick one kind of thing. And C compilers are faster because C, I love how I'm telling you this,

00:22:06   but C is very low to the machine. There's optimizations that will take a long time.

00:22:15   I didn't look into it, but I think I saw it. I forget it. I'm calling it a tweet because

00:22:21   I think it's on Mastodon, but forget it. Everything's a tweet these days. I can't be bothered

00:22:24   to keep track of the tweets. Yeah, I call them tweets. I like calling them tweets.

00:22:27   Yeah, I know. I liked your comment on that too. It's whatever. It's a form, not an item at this

00:22:33   point. Anyway, it was like a C compiler written in some incredibly small number of bytes. It just

00:22:39   didn't do any error correction. It was like, I don't know. If it doesn't do any error correction

00:22:46   and just the symbols that you put, it'll turn that into code, you can write it tidy, really,

00:22:53   really tiny. It's trying to figure out where you've gone wrong, which is the bulk of an actual C.

00:22:59   I saw the same thing. I just made a note. I will put it in the show notes. Some

00:23:03   freak of nature genius packed an entire C compiler into 512 bytes because he wanted it to load.

00:23:14   There's some kind of boot loading area on an Intel PC that is limited to 512 bytes.

00:23:20   So he stuffed a C compiler in there. And his follow-up message was like,

00:23:25   "Well, because you're a C compiler, we just trust that you won't screw it up," which is

00:23:29   hilariously... C's always going to screw up. That's kind of it, basically. You're juggling with

00:23:35   flaming knives at that point. His explanation of it is 10 times longer than the actual C

00:23:43   compiler. But it's a wonderful explanation if you're a nerd. We won't digress here,

00:23:48   but I'll put it in the show notes, I swear. It's wonderful.

00:23:51   Anyway, where I'm going though is that there's a number of Pro Mac users who just wish that Apple

00:23:58   would have done the 2019 Mac Pro all along. Just keep it in a big box where Apple doesn't have to

00:24:06   worry about the thermals. Just sell a big box that opens up and puts Intel stuff inside and

00:24:13   runs... hopefully runs as quiet as possible and give it a lot of ports on the back and just give

00:24:18   me the performance. And wish that they had done that all along. And in the meantime though,

00:24:24   we'd go through these year-long gaps without any update on the Mac Pro. And people who care about

00:24:30   the Mac Pro would worry that Apple wasn't interested in the Mac Pro at all anymore.

00:24:37   What do you got in it's the danger of being on this one weird platform or platforms at this point

00:24:44   from Apple where if you're in the Apple ecosystem and Apple isn't interested in making hardware X,

00:24:51   you don't have an option to buy it, right? So like if you like the mini iPhone form factor,

00:24:57   now that they've apparently stopped making it a year ago with the iPhone 13 mini,

00:25:02   you're out of luck. Right? I mean, now the upside is...

00:25:04   Al Moltis is a huge fan of the mini form factor.

00:25:07   Yeah. The only reason it doesn't hurt so much with the iPhone mini is that there really isn't

00:25:12   such a thing in the Android world either. But like with PCs, you can get any weird form factor

00:25:19   you want, right? So if you still like 17 inch or 18 inch lunch tray size laptops, you can get them

00:25:25   in the PC world. You can get really gigantic... The gaming ones are often really tricked out.

00:25:32   Right.

00:25:32   And like if... Yeah. You can't get that in the Apple world.

00:25:35   Yeah. You can get weird hardware.

00:25:37   Right. I think that leads to people accusing Apple of being monopoly, but that's not

00:25:42   how monopolies work. They're a monopoly on Mac OS, but it's a monopoly? I don't know. It's not

00:25:48   really. It just... It is a unit. And if they're not making something for you and you have different

00:25:55   requirements, then it's a big ass to switch ecosystems, all right? Which is, I think, an

00:26:02   oblique way of getting at what this new Mac Pro may be. One of the issues is a lot of these very,

00:26:09   very custom workflows are tuned for Intel and not necessarily tuned for Apple, Silicon. And now you're

00:26:15   coming out with a new Mac Pro. Let's give it fantasy specs of like it's... It probably won't

00:26:21   be able to... Let's say double an M1 Studio. So an M1 Ultra, I believe, which I have. And it is

00:26:30   fast as hell. I don't need a Mac Pro. For many, many years, I would buy Mac Pros.

00:26:36   Mac Studio is pro enough for me. And I think I would effectively be... It's similar to the

00:26:44   studio display that we were talking about, where to go up to the XDR, I feel, would be extra money

00:26:50   that I don't need to spend in order for my actual use case. And I think the studio does that. So

00:26:55   where does that leave the next Mac Pro? A whole bunch of Apple Silicon thrown at a problem,

00:27:00   but software not yet tuned for it and may not be tuned to it for a while.

00:27:05   >> Well, I just keep going back to that 2013 one from 10 years ago. And I feel like it's

00:27:12   almost like what the people who love the Mac Pro were thinking is, I'm so worried that Apple

00:27:17   doesn't care about it anymore. And in fact, I think it's the opposite. It's that Apple cared

00:27:22   so much. And at very high levels in Mac engineering and product marketing like Phil Schiller,

00:27:32   they really do value the sort of race car version of workstation computing. And they cared so much

00:27:41   that they engineered this incredibly, in a way, beautiful Mac Pro, this cylinder with the highest

00:27:52   finish, super shiny. I mean, it looks like something from, again, like a Star Wars movie

00:27:57   or something. It's a dark, shiny thing and engineered an incredibly innovative thermal

00:28:04   system to do the exhaust through the middle. They spent an incredible... I mean, it's not just like,

00:28:09   oh, it's going to be small. And Johnny Ive or somebody else on his team did a sketch of a

00:28:15   cylinder and handed it off. I mean, it was a monumental amount of design and engineering work

00:28:21   to make that work. And it just was a bad bet on, a really bad bet on where PC computing was going

00:28:29   for the rest of that decade, which was all towards big-ass GPUs that, A, physically wouldn't

00:28:37   fit inside there and B, even if they somehow could be reduced in size to fit, wouldn't have the

00:28:44   thermal headroom to run as hot as they do. But it's almost... I just think the people who were

00:28:53   worried would have been happier if Apple cared less and it just phoned it in with the big box

00:28:58   all along. Yeah. I think there's just two points to that. A, I think the suppliers that Apple was

00:29:04   dealing with at the time, Intel and ATI, they did not share the incentives that Apple did. Apple

00:29:09   wanted to make quiet, very, very fast computers, both laptops and in this case on the desktop.

00:29:15   Whereas both Intel and ATI at the time, or very soon after, were incentivized to make the biggest,

00:29:23   most power hungry chips they can because they were getting pushed up market, specifically with

00:29:29   the some of the ATI and the AI and sort of crypto mining stuff that all the GPUs got sucked up in.

00:29:37   The parameters under which they were expected to operate changed. Their markets were chasing

00:29:44   the high-end power is no consequence kind of thing, whereas Apple really wanted what they

00:29:50   ended up making for themselves in terms of Apple's silicon. And I guess the second thing with that is

00:29:55   while I really admire them for making the trashcan or a different form factor, experimenting with

00:30:00   stuff, is it like, did they make an El Camino? Were they like, this is a pickup truck, but it

00:30:06   looks cool. Like, well, this is a pickup truck, looks like a pickup truck for a reason. And I

00:30:11   don't mean the crazy over the top modern ones that are basically like, there's a limo in front and

00:30:16   like, none of that, that's an obscene exaggeration of a pickup truck, but like a good old Ford pickup

00:30:23   truck that you'd see banging around a farm kind of thing like that. It works. It's a flatbed,

00:30:27   it's got wheels and it will last forever. Don't mess with it. All right. Don't mess with it.

00:30:33   All right. Let's take a break and we'll pick it up. Let me take a break here and take our first

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00:33:11   RocketMoney.com/TheTalkShow. So that's what I here's here's where I'm going with all this. I think

00:33:20   I think that I think we are going to see the Mac Pro at WWDC and I think they're going to go back

00:33:28   to ambitious and ambitious design. I think so. I do not think I do not think it's going to look

00:33:36   like the 2019 one and you open it up and there's a tiny tiny little... It would be pretty funny.

00:33:45   Have you ever seen like by the tail end of VCRs or CD players like you'd open them up and they're

00:33:51   mostly just that shape to fit in the cabinet that's designed for otherwise it's just empty

00:33:56   space. What about the one alien in one of the Men in Black movies there was an alien

00:34:02   and I think it was like his it was like a eight foot tall alien and his chest opened up and in

00:34:08   fact there was a little a little guy the size like a like a frog and he's the outer guy was just a

00:34:16   robot and a real alien was just a little like a little babu frik like the there yeah that's a

00:34:20   Skywalker reference yeah the only good part of that movie yeah the only good scene in the whole

00:34:24   movie babu frik a little guy like that there's some argument to be like the the new case was

00:34:29   received incredibly well like people like that's awesome and I think maybe if you roll out another

00:34:35   the I don't know you come out with a pyramid people gonna be like would you stop doing

00:34:38   stop it just give us what we want but I don't know I do think that there may be I think there's gonna

00:34:46   almost have to be something like it can't just be a bigger better max studio like what's the

00:34:51   what's the point really why didn't you just make a little bit of a bigger max studio and do that

00:34:55   so that brings us to expansion and and graphics cards and all of that jazz and sort of a lot of

00:35:02   the a lot of the weight in that industry is on nvidia who have been having some recent issues

00:35:10   but it seems more of a short-term thing and I'll leave that to you and Ben to figure out I'm a

00:35:15   little bit behind on dithering but could apple work with nv yeah probably would they I don't know

00:35:21   both those companies seem so headstrong then they they get a real sense they don't like each other

00:35:25   the other aspect that I was kind of touching on was a lot of this lower level stuff is sort of

00:35:32   very very tuned for intel things and I was joking previously about this I honestly don't think this

00:35:38   is going to be the case but do you remember those 46 boards that you could plug into like max yeah

00:35:44   way back in the 90s I do I would I would laugh I would laugh my ass off so there was like like a

00:35:50   like a little tiny awesome apple silicon thing and then just a slot was like well we just stuck a pc

00:35:56   in there because because we can for those like as an add-on you know what I mean like yeah if you

00:36:01   want if you want the add-on whatever we'll give you a whole bunch of like intel chips stuck on a

00:36:06   board they have the capability to do that right like mac os runs on intel they they can make their

00:36:12   daughter board talk to the thing I think it's crazy I do not think this is going to happen

00:36:17   I'm just spitballing weird and crazy things that you could do with a massive enclosure like that

00:36:22   but and ultimately you do need to address the expandability mark somehow for that for those for

00:36:27   that for those who don't remember I don't remember it was sometime in the 90s but at some point in the

00:36:31   90s apple sold you could buy I think it might have been before the power pc maybe that's you know

00:36:39   it could have been with the motorola x68 6000 yeah 68 000 series but you could buy a very expensive

00:36:48   I forget the name of those slots new bus was a new yeah new bus might have been new bus yeah

00:36:55   it might have been new bus I'll try to look it up for the show notes here but there would be a very

00:36:59   expensive card that was effectively just a whole it's just a whole intel pc you put it in a card

00:37:07   and then you'd launch like an app you'd be in mac os or system 7 or whatever it was at the time and

00:37:14   launch an app that would run a pc but instead of emulating it was running it on the the pc of the

00:37:22   card so it wasn't you didn't I don't think if I if I'm recalling I didn't own one because I had no

00:37:27   need for it and it was very expensive but it wasn't a dual boot type thing it wasn't like shut

00:37:33   down the mac and hold down the the p and the c keys on the keyboard and reboot into the pc no it would

00:37:38   run as an app but those apps weren't being emulated they were running on a pc on a card

00:37:43   it was crazy uh yeah if anything it was a little bit like classic where some I mean yeah it was all

00:37:50   on the same thing but like you remember how classic was these janky cutout windows that like

00:37:54   he dragged another window across it he would do the no redraw thing from windows back in the day

00:37:58   yeah yeah you could see it repaint yeah I don't think they're gonna do that and I for whether

00:38:06   apple is going to be able to pull this off or not I mean effectively I know nvidia has competition

00:38:12   AMD has graphic cards that are that are well regarded but there's no dispute that nvidias

00:38:19   are the best or the fastest if what you really need is the highest performance GPU and lots of

00:38:25   people who are not video game enthusiasts are doing work that requires the fastest possible

00:38:30   GPU they can get and there's also specifically kuda which is their programming model right for

00:38:37   that which is sort of a sort of similar to metal shaders there were metal compute shaders

00:38:41   specifically apple sort of invented and abandoned open cl which was a another take on the same kind

00:38:48   of like general purpose program or general programming on a gpu style device kind of thing

00:38:54   but kuda is the one that's captured everybody's imagination like that's that is the go-to

00:38:58   programming model for high-end gpu stuff now so yeah not only do they need the speed but I feel

00:39:05   like a little bit like intel if intel slipped a generation and they weren't the fastest chip you

00:39:12   were still running the intel instruction set right but that's slowly going like that advantages but

00:39:18   you know for years if they had a bad one yeah it's not the end of the world because ultimately AMD

00:39:24   is still running our instruction set and so and we are holding that those remains right so like

00:39:30   I think what you're saying here is so let's just say next week at the keynote John Turnus is up on

00:39:36   stage and he's introducing a new Mac Pro and lo and behold apple can flat out say this whatever

00:39:46   it is it's it's not a m1 ultra say m1 is too old at this point m2 whatever the name is and for the

00:39:53   Mac Pro and Mac Pro only apple has their own apple silicon graphics that outperform nvidia's

00:40:02   top of the line whatever so cycle for cycle outperforms nvidia at the high end yeah that's

00:40:11   still they could do it given the same power budget right but that yeah but that may not be enough

00:40:16   for the industry because the industry's locked into CUDA or not locked in but CUDA has so much

00:40:23   momentum and those type of things if you've got this whole the thousands and thousands of

00:40:29   programmer person hours into CUDA and experience in CUDA and so you've got a code base and experience

00:40:37   and it's you know that you can just buy intel pcs and nvidia graphics cards going forward that

00:40:45   train is has left the station and it's it's not enough for apple to say if you use our APIs

00:40:52   instead of CUDA you'll get better performance they're like it it may not be enough i i i think

00:40:58   that's right yeah also it's it's like the win 32 API which lasted forever there was a massive

00:41:04   lock-in in windows even after into the 2000s where the mac took off right there's still a bunch of

00:41:10   stuff like and the stuff that is very window centric is often this high-end performance stuff

00:41:16   like like architectural software like cad software there's very like industry niche specific things

00:41:21   that are tied to windows not because they couldn't run on the mac but because like well bring that

00:41:26   over it's a huge pain in the ass and we're not going to get the market we can get and a lot of

00:41:30   these people buy computers to run that software rather than the other way the other thing with

00:41:36   CUDA is that yes people are accustomed to the API and all that but like one of the issues not

00:41:41   not after the iphone prior to it was getting developers who knew objective c was a huge pain

00:41:47   in the ass which limited the talent pool that you could bring in for microsoft needed to train up a

00:41:52   bunch of people adobe needed to train up people apple internally needs to train up a bunch of

00:41:56   people and no big not advanced had a lot of hand in right and a lot of that and like getting people

00:42:00   up to standard or or knowing how to do stuff with objective c was a huge lift until maybe the iphone

00:42:06   made it so that everybody wanted objective c swift came easier i think because it was a little bit

00:42:12   more uh familiar but also everybody wanted to be on the iphone anyway so whatever everybody

00:42:18   learned swift because they had to CUDA is where it's at some CUDA like apple only thing less so

00:42:25   and if you want to hire somebody you're like okay well you know all that the basics you know how

00:42:30   CUDA works it works mostly the same but it's not quite the same and having experience with like

00:42:36   the particulars of the device matters in these cases because like an nvidia device well first

00:42:42   of all the big thing is that the memory bandwidth like in nvidia devices they've got their ram right

00:42:46   next to the right next to their gpu and on apple devices it's all shared with the cpu so the costs

00:42:53   of sending something to the card on a nvidia device are greater and an apple device they're

00:42:58   smaller which means you may tweak your algorithms in completely different ways for the nvidia you

00:43:03   may be like i'm going to give you everything and you figure it out and get back to me and for an

00:43:07   apple one you may want like a more iterative operating in place kind of algorithm which are

00:43:11   totally different approaches regardless of whatever CUDA or metal shader like it's difficult

00:43:18   and different and in order to make your incredible new mac pro a success

00:43:24   you kind of want people to be able to do the same thing they're always doing in order to leverage it

00:43:29   but you're going to need them to do something slightly different and i fear that that's exactly

00:43:34   what happened in 2013 is that in order to take the best advantage of the 2013 mac pro you needed

00:43:40   to program these crazy dual gpu ati boards and you sort of needed to change your programming model up

00:43:46   a bit and i think that's kind of where it's stalled out beyond the the hardware failures of like heat

00:43:53   and like stuff like it just presupposed that everything worked perfectly i still think you've

00:43:58   got a bit of an uphill battle in terms of convincing people that this model of computer

00:44:02   this model of computing is the way to go so i've yeah that it just makes me excited to see the

00:44:11   announcement and i know i again we'll get to the headset but if the wwdc keynote comes and goes

00:44:17   without mention of the mac pro i'm going to find it baffling i really am because i i i i know that

00:44:25   it was over a year ago at this point it was like at the end of march or april last year when they

00:44:29   did the little mid-cycle special i think it was all yeah it was all remote it was broadcast but

00:44:36   when they announced the mac studio and the studio display and turnis said at the end of the whole

00:44:40   thing we're not quite complete with our move to apple silicon we've got one more yet to come that's

00:44:46   the mac pro but that's a story for another day or something like that yeah i forget exactly how he

00:44:51   said it it was very carefully it wasn't dashed off right number one it's not live yeah well also

00:44:59   they don't do that even live i don't think maybe they dashed off i've been like they're very very

00:45:04   good at community i i know for a fact i i cannot i cannot name my source but let's say a person very

00:45:12   close to the matter i can confirm that can't any innovate anymore my ass was an ad lib oh really

00:45:20   oh yeah that's awesome oh i love that that's great it was not in the rehearsals or it might

00:45:26   but also one of the very few people who could get away with that right yeah who could who could take

00:45:32   the call from tim cook after the keynote and hey was that in the script and you know justify it so

00:45:39   it did happen on stage occasionally where there'd be an ad lib but that was very careful and i re

00:45:46   i also do not think that like apple like turnis thought in april last year that the mac pro was

00:45:56   just around the corner i think they knew the road map and obviously something has changed since

00:46:02   2020 when they first announced the shift to apple silicon and said we expect we're going to start

00:46:08   later this year and we expect to get the whole platform on apple silicon in one year obviously

00:46:15   the mac pro has blown past that one year but so something changed at that point but i think last

00:46:22   year when they introduced the mac studio they knew what was coming and i don't know what it is but i

00:46:27   it's got to be something to me there's that is as as dramatically better than the mac studio as the

00:46:36   mac studio is from the mac mini maybe even more so yeah and i don't know what that means but me neither

00:46:42   i i think maybe to figure out or to have a better guess of what that would be would be to understand

00:46:47   the markets that they're trying to serve like i don't know are you going to give these to pixar

00:46:51   or are you going to give them to like who who are you building these things for is it genentech are

00:46:56   you doing like crazy gene research or all of them we built a thing that will like figure out covid

00:47:02   in like over an afternoon while you're drinking a cup of tea right like what is it and then you can

00:47:07   maybe guess but would you i guess my question for you is if wwdc comes and goes and there's no mention

00:47:14   of the mac pro and like a week later they they get you on the phone i'm like hey john we got bad news

00:47:21   we're just not doing one we're happy with the mac studio obviously they're going to spin it we're

00:47:25   very happy with that it showed up better than we expected yeah it's like it's like you work for

00:47:30   apple pr that's exactly what they would say it's worked out better than we expected and yeah that

00:47:37   would that would presuppose that they are going to announce the next generation mac studio though

00:47:43   right sure and they just say here's the m2 level max studio better yeah i could see that i guess

00:47:49   we had a plan it turns out our plan did not survive contact with the enemy in that we

00:47:54   defeated the enemy and now we're all yeah all one big happy family and like the mac pro is awesome

00:47:59   so the mac studio is awesome so why not i i guess i i i i guess that's i guess that's the second most

00:48:06   likely scenario i think the most likely scenario is a incredibly innovative architecture not even

00:48:14   talking and and again i think apple's long-term internal affinity it doesn't i i everybody's

00:48:24   fear that apple doesn't care about the mac pros because obviously it's the least selling mac made

00:48:29   by quantity because it only it's super expensive and the only way yeah i know it's not the only

00:48:35   factor in how it works i know i'm preaching to the choir here right but people worry you know and i

00:48:40   think a quote-unquote typical company would think that way and think there's why in the world are

00:48:44   we spending any resources at all on this thing for 10 000 or i don't know how many people buy mac

00:48:50   pros maybe it's more than tens of thousands but it certainly isn't millions right it's it's

00:48:56   about it's somewhere in the thousands why are we spending all this time on this when we sell a

00:49:00   billion iphones a year let's just there's no comparison all we care about is iphone iphone

00:49:04   iphone that's not how apple thinks internally and they have a keen interest in it from an industrial

00:49:10   design perspective that the trash can for all of its all the things we did complain about it

00:49:15   already on this show it was a marvel of design and and shows how much they care even the 2019

00:49:22   one where they're like okay okay we'll just put an intel thing in a big box but they they'd spent

00:49:26   five minutes in the keynote talking about how they drilled the holes you know in a

00:49:31   in a special pattern yeah yeah they they they spent five minutes on that and they really wanted

00:49:39   to talk about it they spent they they engineered thousand dollar wheels but i mean yeah they do

00:49:46   care but the other thing but the other thing is people think that that's apple be just wanting

00:49:50   money which right sure but at the other point it's like well they they did things that they really

00:49:58   wanted for themselves just to make it a work of art and they did it against a consumer body that

00:50:04   is willing to pay the price like this hinge costs a thousand bucks is that dumb to delay people sure

00:50:11   is that a drop in the i mean let's not get into the right of strike and how much money the studios

00:50:16   have but they can afford a few stands right like so just drop in the bucket for that but i i think

00:50:22   that the other thing that you it's easily overlooked is is how ambitious the whole johnny

00:50:30   suruji division is on put the industrial design aside just the system architecture side for the

00:50:38   m series chips there it's incredibly ambitious what they've been doing with apple silicon and it

00:50:45   explains because before apple silicon at some point between the years like 2015 2016 and 2020

00:50:53   when they finally announced it it was clear from just pure benchmarks that iphones were outperforming

00:51:00   like on single core benchmarks outperforming macbooks backbook pros it it yeah they could

00:51:08   have built max using a series chips i mean in fact they did with the developer kit thing the developer

00:51:15   kit that they gave out in 2020 was based on an a series chip and it was a good computer and it had

00:51:20   the same nice performance per watt advantages overall they could have just sold that they could

00:51:26   have just called it a day be like you know what iphone chip and a thing here you go but they spent

00:51:30   a fortune of money of time engineering talent to build this entire m series architecture which

00:51:38   makes no sense for phones right you'd never put these chips into phones because of the the size

00:51:45   and power characteristics a series chips are exactly what you want in a phone and these m series

00:51:51   chips are what you want in pc class desktop computers and laptops and really incredibly

00:51:59   innovative the you mentioned the shared memory before and it's so yeah it's such an inversion

00:52:05   of the way things were before where intel had been selling integrated graphics on their lower end

00:52:12   consumer pcs for years that yeah that shared memory memory and and that was like a downside

00:52:19   it was like oh it's you know it's a thousand dollar laptop with shared memory and with apple

00:52:24   it's the opposite where it's this tremendous performance advantage because the graphics

00:52:29   are designed with the cpu in mind to work together that they can share memory and when

00:52:35   something in memory goes from the cpu to gpu it's already there and you save this whole copy yeah

00:52:43   over a bus like people go bananas over bus speeds but guess what right how about no bus

00:52:47   speed yeah no infinite right literally infinite bus speed which is and when you're doing things

00:52:53   at the speed of modern computers a million times a second or some

00:52:57   incomprehensible to to human mind speed those copies matter who knows what else they might

00:53:05   have up their sleeve in terms of an architectural pushing the entire state of the art forward

00:53:12   that would only be in the mac pro and i've drawn this analogy on on the show before but i think

00:53:17   it's a really good one is it's in very broad strokes it's why consumer

00:53:24   car companies have formula one racing divisions yeah and and make race cars

00:53:31   i was about to just exactly back that up which is the the purpose of the mac pro is not necessarily

00:53:38   to sell units but it's to encourage people in the lab to figure out interconnects between okay now

00:53:44   we've got two m1 ultras or two m2 ultras what happens to be how do we in it how do we build

00:53:49   that interconnect how do we how do we make that work as fast as possible how do we deal with

00:53:54   the memory contention which was a big issue i mean whatever going back in history in in the 90s like

00:53:59   a lot of sun and and and similar workstations had different ways of addressing memory and working

00:54:06   the details out on all that behooves the platforms lower down right like as eventually whatever you

00:54:12   put in your mac pro 2023 that tech will find its way into product x whatever product x happens to

00:54:20   be like no idea what it's going to be but any research that you've done in order to use the

00:54:25   high end effect i don't know if it's a loss leader probably a loss leader but it's going to filter

00:54:30   down right and by stretching yourself to do these obscene and crazy things you will ultimately learn

00:54:36   a whole bunch that can be applied elsewhere not necessarily taking the parts but taking what you've

00:54:40   learned and using that elsewhere right is invaluable if if you're single-mindedly focused on the phone

00:54:45   you really wouldn't need any more graphic capability than to push a 6.7 inch display at retina

00:54:54   level right and i know there's rumors that the next year's phones might be a quarter of an inch

00:54:58   bigger or something like that but the basic size of a phone is relatively small you know how many

00:55:02   pixels there are but if you're also have this division that's spent years trying to push the

00:55:09   state of the art forward for giant 5k 6k get it up to 8k displays all of a sudden you've got this

00:55:17   architecture and muscle and experience where maybe you could build something like a headset with two

00:55:24   8k displays in front of each eye and have it run cool on a thing that's in front of your face that

00:55:31   that tech would make no sense on a phone or even an ipad really in terms of how many pixels it's

00:55:37   pushing but all of a sudden here's a new product category where us having us apple having built

00:55:44   these race car workstations for the mac it all of a sudden it's relevant to what ultimately is

00:55:52   intended to be a mass market consumer product yeah i think there's a lot of computing or computer

00:55:57   companies i don't even know if they exist i had that dell hp is gone compact there's a there was

00:56:05   that that run in the 90s of sort of built to order things that did well and made a lot of money on

00:56:10   basically having the the supply chain all work out like just in time manufacturing all of that apple

00:56:18   doesn't wait for technology to become available from its partners apple makes the technology by

00:56:23   itself and while ati and am and nvidia are stretching to try to fill gpu cordos for

00:56:32   for crypto or ai or whatever the high-end massively parallel programming model du jour is or

00:56:38   premise du jour is apple is left alone in some ways to like it has to be the one inventing new

00:56:47   ways to use this stuff and have us to be the one pushing itself certainly games aren't doing it for

00:56:52   them so they need to be the one reaching just that extra little bit further and i i admire them for

00:57:00   doing it in all kinds of ways both in the thermal corners that they trap themselves in and maybe in

00:57:05   a giant ass computer that's going to really confuse us or if they're just like you know what

00:57:09   we got a lot of really fast compute but we can't make a product out of it so forget it and the i

00:57:15   think it's directly related even though it's not a workstation class machine but the other

00:57:21   overly ambitious mac design that got ahead of what the internals

00:57:29   could support was the no adjective 12-inch macbook yeah right we have that one too if there's a dumb

00:57:38   apple computer i bought it i don't know what i don't know what to tell you the 12-inch macbook

00:57:43   makes even even today's and i still i i'm a little surprised i really thought that that bringing so i

00:57:50   didn't know what name they would call it but bringing something back that is insanely thin

00:57:55   was something i thought apple would do because it was clearly something they were interested in a

00:57:59   decade ago but it really did and when you look at one side by side especially when you hold it

00:58:05   it's like pictures on the web don't do didn't do justice to how much thinner it was than the

00:58:10   macbook airs of the time it it was just so thin and light compared to anything else apple had

00:58:16   ever made and the performance just stunk because that was the best that it was like what was it

00:58:22   adam atom the intel atom architecture uh kind of third-rate intel thing like intentionally sort of

00:58:30   spec to run in a very tight well and yeah no fans at all yeah that was very cool and i know people

00:58:36   who loved it i really do especially people who for obvious reasons the type of people who have

00:58:42   jobs where either they're traveling all the time or yeah even when they're quote-unquote at work

00:58:49   they don't really have a desk where they spend all day they're moving around all day and they

00:58:54   need to take their computer with them well obviously making it as thin and light as possible

00:58:57   it means you're schlepping the least amount around yeah i really love mine i know uh our

00:59:02   friend rob ryan swore by it like he would take all his meetings and just but it like it yeah

00:59:07   it just shows that both at at two extremes the 2013 mac pro and the 12-inch mac macbook showed

00:59:16   or proved that apple needed to take the silicon story into its own hands because left to the

00:59:24   industry state of the art they they weren't getting chips that enabled them to build the

00:59:30   the computers that they imagined they needed to do it and i feel like that that's where they are

00:59:35   forever and i don't think nvidia nvidia is just the new intel for in terms of being

00:59:44   pc-oriented the best performance but they're building things that are not commensurate with

00:59:54   apple's imagination for the performance per watt characteristics of how a high-end graphics card

01:00:00   should work so apple needs to do it themselves and the other thing about the trash can that i think

01:00:05   makes me optimistic is that it's clear from the trash can forward that apple knew how important

01:00:12   gpu's were to the future of computing and so they've which i so one of the man i think this

01:00:21   is one of the first arguments i had with syracuse back in 97 something like that not a real argument

01:00:26   but with os 10 or maybe yeah probably you would agree with Syracuse on this because you guys are

01:00:31   both older mac people than i am but it with os 10 everything was buffered and the windows were slow

01:00:37   incredibly slow to to be drawn my position was like yeah sure but they're using the gpu to

01:00:43   composite all of this and the future will be better i have since getting to know you better

01:00:48   and i would just my product my appreciation for products has sort of changed over the years and

01:00:54   i do think that like i think it was the right thing to do and i think it stank at the time and

01:00:59   i think it made a lot of sense for people to remain on mac os for the year or two that it

01:01:03   took to sort of get a little bit better on the other hand the entire industry now runs like that

01:01:08   everybody has like a compositing thing you all draw into a back buffer it all gets composited

01:01:12   that that's how it works that it linux does it windows has done it for years and that's sort of

01:01:17   when they took gpu started to take gpu more seriously i think the 2013 was a big bet on

01:01:25   taking gps more seriously as general compute and that's why they introduced opencl effectively

01:01:31   alongside it which was sort of their version of kuda except if kuda was direct x to to stick to

01:01:37   the microsoft technology kuda was direct 3d direct x the windows microsoft only api then kuda was sort

01:01:44   of equivalent on the compute side they wanted an open gl thing which was open cl to sort of like

01:01:52   open that up and have a collective thing hey let's all just do open cl rather than getting sucked up

01:01:57   and kuda both open gl and open cl failed for any number of reasons mostly having to do with the way

01:02:02   committees work and a whole bunch of frankly and apple i'm sure plays great on committees but moves

01:02:09   a lot faster when they're like you know what fuck it we've got to yeah we're gonna do what we're

01:02:12   gonna do because we can build the chip and make the thing so why are we why we bother with you guys

01:02:16   i i am very very curious to see how this kind of thing is gonna go and one of the things that they

01:02:25   are lacking is games driving them forward in terms of gpu and i think that's been true since forever

01:02:33   i know marathon has just been re-announced but it's not coming to them it's not coming to the

01:02:36   mac which is heartbreaking even for me and i'm like a hold that hold that hold that thought let's take

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01:05:05   slash talk show marathon man oh man i just got done listening to syracuse and bemoan it on atp

01:05:13   i don't know it's i'm a few weeks behind on that yeah i gotta so what so i might have just i might

01:05:18   have if they've covered stuff that i've said i'm sorry i don't know i haven't were you did you play

01:05:27   i i forget where you you just said you weren't as long time mac user did you ever play marathon back

01:05:32   in the day like i did but i came into the mac in 97 when i didn't say it the reunification

01:05:42   yeah reunification next when when yeah when they got next back yeah so during the reunification

01:05:46   because steve told me that there would be uh like an open step mac running in like no time at all

01:05:52   and there there was not it was 2001 so i had i had a great mac i had like a g3 266 with some av like

01:06:01   i could plug in my my vcr to it that was cool and yeah so system 8 which was amazing i really like

01:06:08   system 8 8.5 was great like the stuff went to all of the quickdraw i believe went to powered pc

01:06:14   native and i really fell in love with what the mac was coming from effectively windows nte os

01:06:22   2 kind of thing like it boggled my mind that when you held down on a slider the mac would stop

01:06:29   because it would be like you know what this guy really wants to scroll i'm going to use

01:06:34   everything i got to make this the event loop for like mouse down actions was still from like 1984

01:06:40   where it was just yeah it just it really was it was like somewhere low in the system it was just

01:06:45   a while loop while button is still down there's like some and poked out freaking rat in a cage

01:06:52   just like i just gotta move this cursor right and it had it i don't know i i think somebody maybe i

01:06:59   know i think keith staton field still at apples he was like i think the head engineer on on

01:07:06   at least the last half or the last five years of the classic mac os like some kind of talk or or

01:07:13   retrospective 20 years later of where the system architecture wound up with mac os 8.5 and mac os

01:07:21   9 mac os 9 was really good and really really gave apple the headroom they needed to let mac os 10

01:07:28   establish itself and get off the ground but it was yeah it was weird and it was nowhere near as

01:07:35   crude as people think there was a kernel but it also had to support these ancient apis if they

01:07:43   could have said carbon only no software except carbon they could have used a modern had a much

01:07:50   more modern system architecture it's just kind of the copeland plan right which was a new kernel and

01:07:55   new kernel i think there was some derivatives that took mark but yeah i i think you and i were talking

01:08:00   about this at ben in a text chain how i i honestly think carbon is probably a key savior for apple at

01:08:08   the time oh without question june june that during that transition right and it's and it's champion

01:08:13   with scott forestall who came out for style of next came from next but was the not the voice of

01:08:18   reason but the the voice of practicality like yes and nobody was more committed to the future of

01:08:23   cocoa and the next technologies than forestall but as a practical matter for the late 90s and

01:08:29   first few years of the 2000s yeah they needed it and they modernized it but anyway in that era

01:08:35   a company who you may have heard of named bungee in december 1994 came out with a first-person

01:08:41   shooter that was mac only called marathon yeah and so like the weird i don't know it was like

01:08:49   the tail end of the piece the windows pc universe and a mac universe being so utterly foreign right

01:08:57   like the internet the internet was the and as much as carbon saved apple the internet saved apple too

01:09:04   right oh yeah web and the web because as everything moved to the as so much moved to the web as the

01:09:10   to pressure off the native apps right and the lowest common denominator right so all these

01:09:14   companies who were only going to write once and we're going to write against win 32 and that left

01:09:19   apple mac users out in the cold when that shifted to we're only going to write it once and it's

01:09:24   going to be in the web that meant it could run everywhere so that saved apple but you know floppy

01:09:29   disks were formatted differently the apps were entirely different extensions man follow remember

01:09:34   like right you don't get me started don't don't get me started i know i know i i think it's a

01:09:39   necessary evil and i have for 30 some odd years now but whatever i i don't they're gross they're

01:09:45   gross for all other reasons going to be gross os 10 basically introduced them to the mac

01:09:51   gross we're now living in a we're now living in a world where top level domain is dot zip and

01:09:57   that's i know that's it's bad anyway i feel like we're just tripping down memory lane you're

01:10:04   the master of these digressions the dot zip thing is that google of all companies who should know

01:10:09   better is also a domain name registrar and one of the new domains that they've launched you can get

01:10:15   like guyenglish.zip now which don't download guyenglish.zip but that's the actual domain name

01:10:24   and it's if you think about it it's horrible because if you can put together a url that's like

01:10:29   redirecting and looks like it's something else it will look like it's a file name dot zip

01:10:35   that you're just downloading a file where instead you're actually going to this website you didn't

01:10:41   intend to go to it's a bad file extension is a horrible idea but at a time when pc users were

01:10:47   celebrating doom from id software the groundbreaking first-person shooter was pc only the mac had

01:10:55   marathon and it obviously is not as popular as doom because the mac was smaller but in its weird

01:11:02   ways i i played both as a mac there's zillions of pc users in the 90s who never got to play marathon

01:11:10   because they didn't have any they didn't know where they could use a mac whereas a mac user

01:11:14   i had seen doom and played doom very different game doom was really just pure just go there

01:11:22   and blow apart anything that moves and marathon had a story a really really interesting way yeah

01:11:28   the bungee way yeah i think for those of you out there who were either too young or weren't mac

01:11:33   users in the 90s bungee of course went on to make the halo franchise now they're best known for the

01:11:39   destiny franchise which all of my adult friends who do play video games are addicted addicted to

01:11:46   but hey if you played halo which i did play that was one of the last games i played halo

01:11:50   was so marathon like and in fact i think i don't know if it was a different time or something but

01:11:57   it took place in the greater marathon universe and they had easter eggs buried but the way that there

01:12:02   was stories and they talk about relevant to today's world there was an a there were i think dueling ai

01:12:10   constructs in the marathon world where you'd be running around a spaceship shooting these aliens

01:12:15   and you'd get to a console and some of the ais were unhelpful yeah just a fantastic game and

01:12:25   it was a great first person or single player game with a great story that was very very engrossing

01:12:31   and rich the game it's the engine was innovative and powerful and had things that i don't think

01:12:37   doom even had like it was meant to you had had mouse i believe you can mouse up and down yeah

01:12:41   you could look up and down with the mouse yeah and so you weren't just playing on a 2d map

01:12:45   you were playing 3d and where to me it's just doubt right down memory lane and it's just

01:12:55   amazingly warm memories was the multiplayer now multiplayer in that time absolutely positively

01:13:03   couldn't take place over the broader internet so it was the quote-unquote land party but even

01:13:09   do that like the null modem like no but i only played at the school newspaper so at drexel i

01:13:15   came out in 94 i graduated at the end of 96 or june 96 and i hung around for another year in the

01:13:22   area and still friends with the paper so he played but the school newspaper at drexel the triangle we

01:13:27   had we didn't we made real money with real ads good money nobody and all the the entire staff

01:13:35   was volunteer so we didn't pay the editors or writers we just it's a good way to make money

01:13:41   that's right and we do this are doing we traded we traded ad space to local restaurants in exchange

01:13:48   for free food so we got instead of money so we could eat dinner four or five nights a week at

01:13:55   the paper so we i got to eat food and then we would just spend all of the money we made from

01:14:01   advertising printing the actual newspaper and buying expensive macintosh computers and laser

01:14:08   printers that's uh that's a great scam yeah you don't have any rent to pay it's like yeah so and

01:14:14   we have the off the office space was what was provided to student clubs at any university

01:14:21   there's all sorts of student organizations there's amazing yeah yeah that's weird that that is like a

01:14:26   that's weird we had a nice corner office i hope they're still there i haven't i haven't been in

01:14:30   touch with anybody at the triangle for a long time but but we spent all the money on expensive

01:14:34   macintosh hardware and we had it's a nerdy engineering school and so we had a very good

01:14:42   land for ourselves and we'd upgrade the ethernet whenever we could so we had i don't know a eight

01:14:48   to ten high-end max that were all so we're all in the same room with nice displays and

01:14:54   we and we would just stay up all night just this just the eight ten hours like

01:15:01   blowing blowing each other i want to do that now don't you want to do that now until you realize

01:15:07   like i don't want to be up no i don't want to be up on that i don't know that i like that i like

01:15:12   the vibe of it but like the actual effort put in is like it was just amazingly fun and it was just a

01:15:17   tremendously fun game multiplayer like that with some great levels yeah and including the mouse

01:15:23   look thing i don't remember the names of the levels but my favorite level was this one where

01:15:29   anybody played it was sort of like a big big arena with a stage in the middle and that stage was where

01:15:37   the best weapons would appear and so you'd you'd end there like these snipers coming down yeah and

01:15:43   there'd be teleport spots where you'd try to teleport up there and that's where you'd go to

01:15:46   get the weapons and then you'd have to like do quick jump off but meanwhile people would position

01:15:52   themselves up in the you know like uh in the the last batman movie when bain sent him to some weird

01:15:59   jail over in the middle east he had a climb up it was like that type of circular long you know yeah

01:16:06   real big yeah the climb but but you could teleport to these alcoves that were up there

01:16:10   and one of the weapons was a rocket launcher so you could just get up there point your rocket

01:16:17   launcher where you knew the best weapons would spawn on that stage down below and then boom just

01:16:23   blow people apart the second they got there it was so fun because and and it was one it was a

01:16:30   game where the more you had memorized the maps and you knew all the spawn locations the respawn the

01:16:36   other thing that you could do is you could take a guess when you killed somebody guess where they

01:16:42   might respawn and already point there and that was the that was like the best would be like let's say

01:16:47   i killed you and then i've still got the rocket launcher and i take a guess where you might appear

01:16:55   and i'm already aimed there and then lo and behold i guessed right boom you're dead again

01:17:01   one second later and it tells you there are thousands of you devoted listeners who are

01:17:06   realizing that you are a jackass oh i was the worst capper man you're just capping yeah that's

01:17:11   yeah and i think that's the wrong way i'm not surprised but that is satisfying when you're like

01:17:17   you feel like you're in the zone like okay kill this guy i know he's gonna come back here yeah

01:17:21   yeah hit him with another rocket and the and you've got no chance you literally there's

01:17:26   nothing you could do you could be the best marathon player in the world and there's nothing

01:17:30   you could do if the half a second after you respawn there's already a rocket coming right

01:17:36   at your face because you can time it you know how long they'll take you respond if i fire now

01:17:41   he'll just he'll teleport right in front of it yeah yeah so you know the way the kids today like

01:17:46   when they're uh playing the fortnite or those games and they they pay the money to get the

01:17:50   dance moves and stuff like that that they can do but when you were playing in a land in a room

01:17:56   all together you would just stand up and do the dance for real and just put your finger right in

01:18:01   the guy i mean it's amazing i didn't get beaten up i mean frankly yeah yeah i mean that's like

01:18:07   a lifelong well anyway anyway what are we talking about man marathon it's coming back it's but it's

01:18:13   coming back in an entirely new it's like they're using bungee is using the intellectual property

01:18:19   from marathon to make a new game it's called an extraction something i don't know it sounds to me

01:18:26   like you play it's sort of like a more like a fortnite type thing but fortnite is 20 randos

01:18:31   around the world get put on an island together and the last person alive wins these extraction games

01:18:38   i think it's like you have to you have to get to like a certain point on the map and maybe there's

01:18:42   two teams or something like that and capture the flag capture the i don't think yeah i think that

01:18:47   the i don't know the class of the the names of them there was a star wars game like that though

01:18:52   that i think i i think this might be modeled after you could be like hans solo or darth the

01:18:58   bigger yeah maybe maybe that was it i didn't play it i watched jonas play it but anyway marathon's

01:19:04   coming back in name only maybe it'll be fun i don't know but the sad part about it is what

01:19:09   you said it's it and it's sony sony bought bungee bungee went from being a mac only this is where

01:19:16   it's sad from a mac users part they used to make only heartbreaking they used to make mac mac games

01:19:22   only and they made the best mac games and were like the only company making games that if you

01:19:27   could get a pc user's attention they would say uh-huh that actually does look like a good game

01:19:31   they halo was going to debut as a mac game just like marathon but then a small company named

01:19:39   microsoft bought bungee but then halo became what mario is to nintendo platforms halo was to the x

01:19:46   box it was the exclusive and it got me honestly that's the reason i bought at the original i

01:19:52   bought the original xbox in 99 or 2000 whatever year it came out instead of buying whatever the

01:19:58   playstation 2 or whatever the playstation was of the time because i wanted halo i knew i wanted it

01:20:04   because i knew i loved marathon it did come out for the mac eventually halo but it was bad i played

01:20:10   it on my mac and it was support by another company it was fine it was good but it uh didn't have that

01:20:16   magic yeah bungee's got magic when they put their heart into something it's magic and i i can't just

01:20:21   ports are complicated and difficult because you want to maintain the same thing but

01:20:26   you know you feel like the mac people at bungee would have put some great mac twist on it in some

01:20:32   weird way yeah for reasons i still don't understand microsoft sold bungee eventually and now sony owns

01:20:38   bungee it seems weird given that microsoft is interested in buying ea they obviously want to

01:20:45   own intellectual property and game studios and we want to spend microsoft's trying to buy it

01:20:50   wait does ea no well what's the parent company of ea whatever no no it's activision you're thinking

01:20:57   of oh yeah that's right activision is but doesn't activision own ea do they oh whatever man

01:21:05   god i guess you're mad at us yeah i guess no it's activision because the eu is doing

01:21:13   the thing where yeah you're right it's activision i don't know why yeah okay okay and it's a weird

01:21:18   whatever it shows what a dummy i am at remembering names it's activision of course but anyway no no

01:21:24   i'm also but they're but yeah they want to activate but some but for some reason they want

01:21:28   to spend 68 billion dollars to buy activision but didn't want to keep bungee and now sony owns bungee

01:21:34   and destiny is beloved and now they're coming out with this new marathon game and it's only

01:21:39   going to be for playstation xbox and pc boo but i guess i understand why right it would have been

01:21:46   well would have been awesome if they said and mac but i guess the other thing that's do a great job

01:21:53   of like courting game developers i really don't i like apple arcade i do but one of the big

01:22:00   problems with that is if you are just some background i know but for the listeners i

01:22:05   i worked at ubisoft at like the beginning of my career was all in video games and i was at ubisoft

01:22:10   at one point and the console makers have very strict hig like a human interface guideline

01:22:16   and they will reject you if you don't comply with it like if you in every game button x does

01:22:23   y like it does it and and you don't need to be the instructions it's just i i'm on my xbox i know if

01:22:29   i do this it's going to do an affirmative action if i do that it's not the menus work a certain

01:22:34   way everything kind of has a formula like a hig and it's good apple lets people bring their games

01:22:41   over but doesn't really provide a hig for what the game should do really and so they're kind of like

01:22:48   all over the map and they don't feel unified as as a concept this is under apple arcade

01:22:53   games not under apple arcade just want to upsell you but it's horrible like well it's it's just

01:23:00   seems like a mess of all kinds of stuff apple arcade is good but i wish they'd have a stronger

01:23:04   communication and a stronger opinion when dealing with game developers which i think would be of

01:23:10   their platform and courting them and listening to them sort of the same way that they i don't want

01:23:15   them to don't want them they've clearly succeeded in television and i think succeeding in games in a

01:23:22   similar way would really work for the company and i think they're going to need to hire some outside

01:23:27   people in order to help them achieve that if that's even something they want to achieve

01:23:33   well hold that thought let's shift to the headset where i think maybe that's where that might go but

01:23:39   let's hold that thought and let me thank our third and final sponsor of the show our good friends at

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01:23:52   devices to 100 compliance now how can they do that how does it work they patch one of the major holes

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01:24:06   to solve basic problems like keeping everyone's operating systems and browsers up to date with

01:24:12   security patches and updates insecure devices are logging into your company's apps right now because

01:24:18   there's nothing to stop them collide is the only device trust solution that enforces compliance

01:24:24   as part of user authentication and it's built to work seamlessly with octa the moment collides

01:24:31   agent detects a problem it alerts the user and gives them simple easy to follow instructions

01:24:37   for how to fix it if they don't fix the problem within a set time then they're blocked from logging

01:24:43   in to your internal apps it's that simple collides method means fewer support tickets less frustration

01:24:50   and most importantly 100 fleet compliance visit collide.com the talk show to learn more or book

01:24:59   a demo that's k o l i d e collide.com slash the talk show all right onward to the headset and i

01:25:09   think games are a good segue yeah because we're gonna find out what apple thinks the answer to

01:25:16   the question what it okay we get it it's ahead you know they're making a headset or apparently

01:25:21   i mean again we could all be in for a big surprise in a week right i i don't expect that to happen i

01:25:28   really i think somebody inside apple would have started spreading the word to stop expecting a

01:25:34   headset by now so let's just yeah i mean that notion's come up a few times right which is

01:25:39   i forget if it was jason on the show i basically i'm just here to pitch previous episodes of this

01:25:43   show but yeah basically if things are getting out of hand in terms of expectations it behooves it

01:25:52   behooves apple to be like hey guess what like just chill out because don't get too excited so if if

01:25:58   the other if we spend all this podcast time talking about the expectation of a headset next

01:26:02   week and it doesn't come it's not us who look foolish it's apple at this point yes right

01:26:10   exactly also i don't i don't i don't want to talk about it and i'll tell you why a i think you and

01:26:16   jason covered it really well i love the sports stuff i know a friend chris parish and you and

01:26:21   i were all texting about similar stuff earlier with regards to soccer rather than baseball

01:26:26   seeing games up front is cool i like all of that notion who knows what's going to happen what i

01:26:34   i am interested in is not the specifics of the product which eventually if it exists we'll see

01:26:41   it it'll be announced soon enough so what's the point in really drawing on that i think that that

01:26:45   gun has been covered is what new ways of interacting with computers have we do we expect

01:26:54   not just with this potential device but i think the humane stuff fits into this too where the

01:27:03   company the company humane you're saying the company humane yes right where and i know they're

01:27:07   drastically different concepts at this point but effectively if you forget whatever the specifics

01:27:12   are going to be like quinn did a great job you've had a really great you're well up until i'm sorry

01:27:18   you stuck with me this week you've had it you've had it you've had a great long run you should

01:27:22   definitely get joanna back on because she's amazing but i appreciate it see the mere moles just filling

01:27:27   it out quinn was a me quinn nelson was awesome though it was awesome yeah it was great yeah i

01:27:31   love it i haven't listened to last week but i i'm sure they're great too the the notion of the

01:27:38   humane device is one that does not require a phone and it's sort of as presented fits in the lapel

01:27:46   pocket and project stuff i guess my i take on this and and potential glasses are that computing

01:27:54   becomes an environmental factor like if it's not clipped onto your label lapel but it's you've got

01:27:59   like four of them scattered around like aerotatics in your kitchen whatever you address it'll project

01:28:03   something and you can interact with or it's on your glasses and you can see wherever in the world

01:28:08   that you happen to be this is sort of an ambient computing kind of take with connectivity and ai

01:28:17   hopefully providing input in terms of like being able to understand what it is you want and output

01:28:24   in terms of being able to hopefully find you an answer i think maybe let's put aside the

01:28:29   caveats about how ai just makes shit up sometimes and and and assume that that's going to be okay

01:28:36   i don't to be perfectly honest i'm not sure that that's a good assumption but let's just assume

01:28:41   that the people developing this technology think that that's going to be okay and so both either

01:28:48   having glasses or humane style device leads to an ambient computing sort of experience and what is

01:28:54   that what does that mean like what what's different like where where's the world in 10 years not like

01:29:02   hey in six months are we going to pay x amount of dollars for a couple of either a humane device or

01:29:08   some potential glasses well you know that i always walk around with a notebook in my back pocket

01:29:12   right i'm a field notes junkie and i i just it it's a decades-long habit at this point where

01:29:18   something comes to my mind or i was like wait i got to do these three things today don't let

01:29:24   me forget them i've been using it during this conversation i do i uh yeah but we're on camera

01:29:31   by the way yeah but but it is something that i have to think about i think oh there's something

01:29:36   i want to write down i want to make sure i go to the dry cleaner before the end of the day i take

01:29:39   out my notebook i write it down and that's like in a broad analogy that's like what computers have

01:29:45   been like at this point like oh i want to do something on a computer let me open my laptop

01:29:48   and start typing let me take my phone out of my pocket and tap tap tap ambient computing is more

01:29:54   like if you had somebody following you around who's writing everything down on a notebook

01:29:59   all the time and you don't have to do it and then you're like you just turned your assistant like

01:30:04   what where where the hell did i have lunch last tuesday and they're like flip flip flip through

01:30:08   the pages oh you had lunch at shake shack and it's like oh yeah that's right but it's it's just there

01:30:14   right and it yeah it and yes it is technology is always surprising when it comes to fruition and

01:30:22   and however visionary our science fiction authors of decades past were they always miss some things

01:30:31   nobody can foresee it and it's like nobody really foresaw like what how what if ai becomes a real

01:30:38   thing and a practical thing people can use and it's really dumb like nobody nobody envisioned

01:30:44   that nobody envisioned everybody's everybody's idea was that the ais no matter what whether

01:30:49   they went bad or they didn't go bad that they were they were smarter than the humans right and you

01:30:55   know c3po how 9 000 had a plan right he was like i'm going to get him out of the shift i'm going

01:31:01   to close the door it's going to be it made sense he was yeah he was how was very smart c3po is very

01:31:07   smart and it was original to think well what if what if he's a bit annoying what if he's a bit of a

01:31:13   worry wart and and you know ultimately he is a know-it-all it's not that he he's dumb it's not

01:31:19   that he doesn't know thing he's just he's a know-it-all yeah and what if an r2 was what what

01:31:23   if r2 what if there's a robot and all it can do is beep but is very sarcastic and there's a bit of

01:31:28   his cocky smart ass but he was smart right there was nobody envisioned the idea that what what if

01:31:33   the ai comes and it's just really dumb you can spend five minutes with it and convince it to

01:31:38   two plus two equals five you know what i mean like people have done that yeah but it's where we're

01:31:43   going right and the headset is will be the first step or one of the first steps i still say i

01:31:49   air air air pods are are one of those steps right exactly exactly that's kind of where i'm going

01:31:55   with that is like it's sort of sure vr ar stuff is possibly a product it's definitely this humane

01:32:02   thing as demonstrated at least seems to be the same kind of thing but ultimately the the mechanism

01:32:08   through which be it air pods or whatever other kind of stuff is incidental to the actual experience

01:32:14   of i can just get stuff projected in front of my eyes whether it's from a projector in the room or

01:32:19   like something that i'm wearing or ambient noise detection in my my air pods which i the

01:32:25   transparency mode in air pods are is pretty incredible like it'll dampen out a whole bunch

01:32:29   of stuff but like when i'm about to get hit by something i i know it it doesn't happen because

01:32:34   i know that it's there like it i i forget that it's on all the time and i use them as a pedestrian in

01:32:39   a big city with lots of traffic all the time yeah and i think as like a truck goes by or a bus

01:32:45   goes by and i hear it i think oh i should put transparency on and then i hold it to put

01:32:49   transparency on and then i hear what really is going on in the real world i was like oh it was

01:32:54   on and that was just letting me know it's yeah it's fantastic it's really really good but it

01:32:59   really is it disappears right then it's exactly that is ambient computing where you literally

01:33:05   forget you're using it you're supposed to forget you're using it when you're using them on an

01:33:10   airplane and you've got the noise cancellation on you just completely forget that airplanes are very

01:33:16   noisy you know that the white noise the baseline white noise on an airplane is really high and you

01:33:21   just completely forget it i because i one thing i always do is i always take them out when i go

01:33:26   to take a leak on an airplane because i'm super duper quadruple that's the last place you want

01:33:32   to lose an airplane they never fall out of my ears i've never i i every once in a while they'll

01:33:36   fall out on the sidewalk i've never lost one but i just know murphy's law says the the most likely

01:33:42   place would be like i'm halfway through a piss and the airplane hit some turbulence am i right

01:33:48   today flight ground against john grubber got his arms stuck in yeah oh no i'd i'd kiss it goodbye

01:33:54   that's for sure 0.0 chance that i'm fishing an uh air pod out of there but i you know i worried

01:34:02   i guess those those airplane toilets they have a real powerful sort of vacuum flush but i'd be

01:34:07   worried that it would just be sitting there and i couldn't flush it down and the next guy would come

01:34:10   in and be like uh-oh an air pod yeah so the thing is it's like sure games obviously make sense but i

01:34:18   feel like games are sorry for the headset games we know what that is right and so the next kind of

01:34:24   thing is well what is an ar an ar is not just glasses it's not ears it it is really sort of

01:34:33   an an ambient experience and i think your explanation of ambient makes the most sense

01:34:40   which is it's just constantly competing with you which presupposes or is predicated upon the notion

01:34:46   of constantly recording stuff which is creepy and i i guess my thesis is that apple's investment

01:34:56   both in terms of technology and in terms of communication in privacy over the past many

01:35:02   many years in their brand right advertising it's their brand now right there's billboards within

01:35:09   the apple logo and a lock on top do you have often you mutilate your logo yeah not often

01:35:14   all right they do it with a lock because they want you to know and i think that in terms of

01:35:19   whatever product lines you watch you watch it's like also like inherently very personal

01:35:24   information the notion that like in order to achieve or to be trusted in this new space of

01:35:31   more ambient computing you must take this very very cultural signifier seriously and i think you

01:35:39   can come out with products that are maybe cool or interesting but unless you've built trust over

01:35:46   years it's going to be a very difficult sell yeah i'm i'm super excited at this point i know it's

01:35:52   clear from the last couple episodes of the show and jason and i talked about it and i've talked

01:35:56   about it with molts and other people and quinn quinn especially is one of the reasons i had him

01:36:00   on because he did such a good video projecting some of these ideas of what you could do i'm i'm

01:36:06   i'm still i'm super duper curious what apple's answer to that question is but at this point

01:36:11   if it's sufficiently good hardware and the latency's low i can imagine that all sorts of

01:36:16   things are going to be really cool and useful on on a headset i really am i do i wonder i mean and

01:36:23   the weird thing about apple and gaming is as much as the mac is perhaps as little relevant to overall

01:36:32   pc gaming as it's ever been i mean i i think that's on it yeah certainly it's funny because

01:36:38   it's it's more capable than it's ever been more capable at the nadir of like right actually having

01:36:44   games on it you name the games that people who consider themselves gamers are playing and the

01:36:49   number of them that are available on the mac is you count them on one hand i think maybe even

01:36:55   even if you've lost a couple fingers and in a lawnmower accident you still might be able to

01:37:00   count them on one hand yet apple is arguably maybe the most profitable gaming company in the world

01:37:06   with the iphone right yeah i don't even i i'm i'm not looking up the numbers i may not even be close

01:37:13   i mean honestly and and there are so there's there is a lot of game source code out there that is

01:37:21   targeted towards apple silicon but it's on the phone and does that translate that's a market

01:37:27   thing i mean so well it is it is a market thing right yeah i mean so yeah that's kind of what

01:37:32   it's going you know this i'm not as public as it used to be but at one point back in the early

01:37:37   iphone days i worked on tap tap revenge which was a right big hit and uh basically a dance dance

01:37:43   revolution style game on the phone slash guitar hero type guitar hero that that style sort of you

01:37:49   know like midi notes would come down you tap them and it was it was a sensation it really i'm not

01:37:54   saying that just because you worked on it i mean it was absolutely a sensation yeah it really

01:38:00   blew my mind yeah in fact the company tactically set up getting bought by disney right so that's

01:38:04   cool i still get emails from disney telling me about just dumb internal stuff anyway long story

01:38:11   short games were cool and yet never really the focus i like one of my proudest moments is jobs

01:38:20   on stage playing tap tap revenge when multitasking was added it's like hey look i can get out of this

01:38:26   dumb game and go do something useful and then come back and the game is still there that was the demo

01:38:30   of multitasking i don't like that's very steve jobs and i i like that but it's i don't think

01:38:37   the company's ever really had a strong advocate for games and i i i think it is a testament to how

01:38:44   well constructed and and the culture of the company that they've had so many long-term managers

01:38:51   and and they have adapted in so many ways to the changing environment in terms of computing and in

01:38:56   terms of the capabilities of the chips in terms of software in terms of the internet and at the same

01:39:01   time none of these people at games and i don't really play games i play fifa every now and then

01:39:06   but it's like we i'm not and you're not one of those people that goes and plays land parties

01:39:10   anymore but there are people there and in terms to advancing in games i think you need an advocate

01:39:16   for that kind of thing well maybe it's shiller though i mean and again i did i it's not like

01:39:21   phil shiller calls me up a month before wwc and tells me what's on the agenda quite the opposite

01:39:27   but we do know i don't even know i think we know this from the epic lawsuit it came out in

01:39:31   testimony that phil shiller number one he knows a lot more about games than you might think and he

01:39:36   has yeah like a i don't know if it simulates f1 specifically but like a race a vr race car

01:39:42   simulator in his house that's cool like imagine what phil shiller money could buy you in terms of

01:39:47   how nice it's probably you know what i mean like it's probably got like a really nice steering

01:39:51   wheel it's not just like phil shiller money without steve bomber taste right steve bomber

01:39:56   would just buy right an f1 car and race it himself like yeah stark no you know it you know phil's

01:40:02   setup looks good too like it looks good even before you're playing it as high level as anybody

01:40:07   at apple can get who's obviously got a keen interest in and experience with vr gaming i

01:40:15   guess the other thing i would just i don't want to focus too much on games just with the headset but

01:40:19   i do think it's got to be a huge part of the story and in one sense i guess the way i'm looking at it

01:40:24   is that old axiom that if you're going to be the upstart and take over the entrenched incumbent you

01:40:33   can't just be 2x better you've got to be 10x better it's not a magic number if you could put

01:40:39   a number on it and it's actually 8.5x better well that's closer it rounds up to 10 but you've got to

01:40:44   be like roughly an order of magnitude better where apple's strength in gaming is clearly on handheld

01:40:50   phones right and men one level up probably ipad i'll bet the second by far the second most amount

01:40:58   of money they get from app store gaming revenue is on the ipad not apple tv or mac and that's the

01:41:04   phone is even the biggest phone iphone you could buy is a relatively small really relatively small

01:41:12   viewport it's less immersive because it comes back to i think i was talking about it with

01:41:18   snell recently about how immersive going to a real movie theater is because the screen is so big there

01:41:25   is a psychological aspect to it that it makes it more immersive than watching on your tv at home

01:41:31   no matter how big your tv is it just is your your mind gets full pc gaming with a big pc gaming

01:41:39   monitor right in front of you is way more immersive than gaming on a phone because it's

01:41:44   a bigger screen and you've got better controls but what can be more immersive than even the

01:41:49   nicest display in front of you is ahead that your whole field of view right and and that could

01:41:56   simulate the illusion that you're looking at reality you know that it's not a big 35 inch

01:42:05   display in front of you it's literally the world it's that immersive so to me if apple's ambition

01:42:11   is to become like a leading gamer gaming platform not just a casual gaming platform i honestly it

01:42:20   would make sense strategically to say you know what we lost this battle with the pc class gaming

01:42:25   let's go to the next thing which is full immersion of vr that would make sense to me and then all of

01:42:34   a sudden instead of the mac versus the pc it's okay you're stuck on a pc looking at a stupid

01:42:39   display or you've got one of these janky headsets for that are out there for pcs attached to it like

01:42:45   a playstation right which are i mean they're great they look great i don't have one but yeah well

01:42:50   like i said i said last yeah but like i said last week in terms of how how much he's attached to it

01:42:56   he didn't even take it to college with him he took he did take his playstation didn't take the headset

01:43:01   i mean that's that's how much he cares about the headset what about star wars squadrons a while

01:43:05   ago i don't know when it came out uh which is guess what you fly an x-wing or a tie fighter

01:43:10   but it supports the headset and i like the game but i never even bought the headset i was like

01:43:16   okay well i'm not really called to spend that much extra money i i do think that vr is a distinctly

01:43:26   different thing than ar right oh wow and one of the great things that they do have going in

01:43:32   to their advantage just i mean all of all of mac os and ios devices except the watch i guess

01:43:40   support game controllers right so whatever if they strap something to your face and you can use a

01:43:46   game controller that's great obviously there are playstation games where you can interact more

01:43:51   physically in the environment but i feel like if you're on a long-haul flight you're not going to

01:43:56   get up and dancing out the cabin imagine flailing your arms while you're sitting there and you're

01:44:01   like slapping the guy next to you in the face yeah right yeah you're getting you're getting

01:44:06   ejected pretty quick yeah i do like you're you're knocking your own drink off your your seat seat

01:44:11   tray table no you need like right you want your hands to stay still and and be i think there's

01:44:16   two different experiences there i think there was an experience like at least for the for the

01:44:19   things that i've tried the the vr the playstation stuff and the oculus there is an experience where

01:44:27   you are part of the world and your whole body is sort of incorporated into it and that's one thing

01:44:32   there's also a concept of like oh it's just a giant ass screen in front of your face like

01:44:37   is that like the game boy worked great because you could just sit there and play it and it was fun and

01:44:46   it was pretty compact he didn't you could sit play it on the bus i don't know if you've seen

01:44:49   that tesla's movie but man it's pretty good i did no i did see the tesla's movie i loved it it was

01:44:54   i was interestingly it it's not what i expected it is not a spy thriller but it's not not a spy

01:45:01   thriller it's not a comedy i like they're driving cars and when they bump they glitch which is

01:45:08   weird like there was some very weird artistic things it may parts of it may as well just be

01:45:12   a stage play like there was his his apartment there was a meeting room and there was maybe his

01:45:17   hotel oh and a club at one point like it's so limited in terms of like what what happens it

01:45:23   the great great movie well great very interesting worth checking out i guess what i'm saying is the

01:45:30   way that you engage with a full you under full immersion can either be a full body experience

01:45:37   or it can just be like a very personal experience one of them requires basically a room that is

01:45:44   padded really how many coffee tables are you going to fall into you know and one of them could be

01:45:51   like a little bit more confined and i think games need to realize like what is this platform or

01:45:59   what's it doing and i i think part of the reason that it's kind of pointless to talk about this

01:46:04   potential device until next week is we don't know we have no idea we can guess all we want but

01:46:11   ultimately it is what is it for who knows like what's the ui who knows who knows what the goal is

01:46:19   is it a game boy that you can sit and just enjoy quietly or is it like clear out your living room

01:46:25   kids where we're going into vr adventure those are very different things and i think ultimately vr is

01:46:34   a stop along the way to like sort of a more augmented reality thing which is where i was

01:46:40   going with the humane devices at the earphones and all yeah i think if it's successful and if

01:46:46   it's ambitious as i suspect it is and you know there's rumors that it's going to cost three

01:46:51   thousand dollars which i know is very expensive for a consumer product but i've as i've said

01:46:56   like inflation adjusted the original macintosh from 1984 it was 2500 then that's like over seven

01:47:03   thousand dollars now just to get a the one and only macintosh i mean in the 90s silicon graphics

01:47:09   and sun workstations it was twenty thousand dollars just to get a computer on your desk on

01:47:13   those platforms and in in that era is money and so i'm not i'm not saying that three thousand

01:47:19   dollar headset is nothing if that's the price but it to me is exciting if it is let's just say it is

01:47:24   three thousand dollars it just means that it's got to be really exciting technology like if if an

01:47:30   iphone 14 pro is a thousand dollars how much cool computing power could three times that be packed

01:47:41   in front of your eyes like by apple's current engineering standards they're not even talking

01:47:46   about the paradigms for how the software is going to work which is the most interesting thing to me

01:47:51   but you know that they've got the silicon chops to do it like they may not have the chops to do it

01:47:57   and sell it for 750 yet that's the five years in the future but if they're going to pack three

01:48:02   thousand dollars of their current this is the best we can do into a headset that should be a really

01:48:08   impressive hardware device like as a computer sure with that much money whatever the build materials

01:48:15   is yeah if they if they yes that totally makes sense but ultimately why like right right i do

01:48:25   you know what i mean it's like could you do that could you strap that much worth of compute onto

01:48:29   your face or whatever it is sure but like the mac and i guess i'm going back to the mac pro the 2023

01:48:36   concept of a macro why what is it you're trying to achieve what is the purpose of this and if you can

01:48:41   sort of glean the purpose which i don't think we can then maybe you can sort of guess of what

01:48:47   technology would be yeah but i don't think that like hey we've got this much tech let's throw it

01:48:55   at somebody or at a device and see what happens i that feels a little initially backwards but

01:49:02   potentially kind of like the watch like hey let's try something and see where it goes and i think

01:49:07   going back to the last 15 years of major introductions like the iphone introduction

01:49:14   didn't really need the why right everybody had phones and ipods and well but the cute but the

01:49:20   one outlier was like an ipod yeah what was it an ipod a phone and an internet communicator right

01:49:27   and everybody's like oh that's bullshit yeah just one of three you wanted the rule of three guess

01:49:32   what everybody does it's like the third one but for the most part once jobs started demoing it

01:49:38   everybody was just like gimme gimme gimme i need it whereas with the ipad the whole keynote was why

01:49:45   why why did we build this what is the point it was very explicit it wasn't like hinting at why

01:49:50   steve jobs literally said what is the the slide as i recall it was like a macbook on one side

01:49:57   an iphone on the other is there space in the middle for something that is sort of like a phone

01:50:03   and sort of like a laptop we think yes here's why and it was this that the other i would expect that

01:50:11   would be the exact cadence of the headset introduction why i i wouldn't be surprised if

01:50:17   if they actually just come right out and say it the way jobs did like what why would you want to

01:50:24   do this and strap a thing on your face well we've got some answers this that the other that's a that

01:50:31   does make sense and and i think if it's the question is still open for ipad right right

01:50:36   well maybe now what's the point of ipad you like i don't know makes a bunch of money right but i

01:50:41   think which is i'm sure ipad people are very upset with me now but clearly between the the max like

01:50:46   the r max and the phone ipads are getting a little i think i'd say this is somebody who works on ipad

01:50:53   so i think if they're successful it'll be the sort of thing like the the sort of broad foundational

01:51:02   platform where there is no one answer meaning in the same way with the phone like so many people

01:51:10   use their phones in such different ways i mean but my wife hardly uses the camera she she just has

01:51:16   never been a photographer she knows i take family pictures she just doesn't take a lot of pictures

01:51:21   like if you look at her camera roll of pictures she's taken it's it's mostly like products like

01:51:26   things she wants to buy or something like that she just doesn't take photos other people specifically

01:51:33   only upgrade their phones just to get the new camera and hardly use the other features right

01:51:37   i could see the headset being that i i i if it's successful where some people are going to buy it

01:51:42   and it's going to be for for work that they'll put it on and use it as like virtual displays for

01:51:47   their mac or doing stuff so they can have like the equivalent of a desktop display while they're

01:51:52   traveling without carrying one around and they'll never play games they have no interest in it

01:51:56   other people will buy it just for the games and watching movies on airplanes or something like

01:52:01   that and obviously the broader mix of people will be a little bit of everything but i could you know

01:52:05   if it's a really that foundational like the mac and like ios as a platform it'll be for work for

01:52:14   information for entertainment yes not not like one of those things but yes to all of them because

01:52:21   it's a foundational platform and a general purpose computing system that you could do

01:52:26   anything that you can imagine so i guess

01:52:29   this is if that's true if all of the platforms have basically their their venn diagrams intersect

01:52:38   a lot and they've all got unique capabilities like currently i can use a uh pencil have a pencil on

01:52:43   the ipad that's great ipad's great for a lot of bunch of stuff max are good for a bunch of stuff

01:52:48   the watch is obviously very specific airpods very specific the phone very broad but still really

01:52:54   quite specific in that like you're not going to do a spreadsheet on your phone and maybe this new

01:52:59   device is also like that i feel i'm harping on this a bit but is that not more of a broadening

01:53:09   of computing into not quite ambient but like however you want to access your stuff you can do

01:53:16   it which is an old son so i was like scott mcnally i believe his name was like a you just log into any

01:53:21   computer you get your user account you do your stuff like if i can touch any computer and it

01:53:25   could do anything that i needed to do in any maybe there's better form factors to doing a certain

01:53:31   thing better like do i want to draw with my mouse probably not ipad's good for that is that not just

01:53:38   sort of broadening computing to being like whatever the surface is that you're interacting

01:53:42   with will offer you benefits by its physicality but not necessarily in and of itself like i guess

01:53:52   when you buy an ipad are you buying the ipad or the ability to interact with your software in a

01:54:00   new interesting way it's a very philosophical i was about to say i'm wrapping up here and you're

01:54:07   getting you're getting into philip philip i do think you're right though and i guess i guess the

01:54:13   other thing that's interesting about the headset as a new platform for apple is it's it and i'm not

01:54:20   discounting we just talked about i i think airpods are the first mainstream ar product i think they're

01:54:26   more important and more interesting as computers not as headphones but as computers than most

01:54:31   people give them credit for the watch i don't underestimate at all but again ambient right it's

01:54:37   most of what the watch does isn't you interacting with it most of what the watch does it's just

01:54:41   doing on its own on your wrist when you're not even looking at it keeping track of all your

01:54:45   vitals and your health statistics and stuff like that you have to go back to the ipad for a thing

01:54:51   that you're actually looking at that has a display that's going to have a new set of apis for

01:54:55   developers to write software against it's the first one though the ipad came out in 2010 which

01:55:02   was early days for the i for iCloud and and stuff like that this is the one that's debuting when the

01:55:09   apple broader ecosystem is established and i was going to say millions but i think by apple's count

01:55:17   it's like billion active users are have their data and information and their lot their digital lives

01:55:25   in the apple ecosystem i i think that's a big part of it of of the ambient part of it and i know

01:55:31   people are not going to walk around with this this first headset as it's being rumored that ski goggle

01:55:37   thing they're not going to be out on the sidewalk driving their cars or wearing it all day long it's

01:55:42   not like glasses it's not ar glasses but i really do see obviously that's that's an end point for

01:55:49   where technology is going and in the same way we talked about macro s10 launching with an advanced

01:55:56   window manager years before it was ready getting the ar segment of this off the ground with crude

01:56:05   hardware by ar standards right like 10 years from now when the glasses that show ambient heads-up

01:56:12   displays for everything in your field of vision are commonplace we'll look back at headset 1.0

01:56:18   as as being almost comical in ar because of how it it but it is what it is and to get the software

01:56:27   ecosystem yeah to get people things comical in retrospect like we've just we we love praise upon

01:56:33   marathon right have you played it now yeah it's totally disappointing right i was just watching

01:56:37   a video of it and i was like oh that's it's actually really janky right and the original

01:56:41   original macintosh was really slow and everything in hindsight is slow the the first i thought okay

01:56:47   that's the nature of introducing something new it's always the worst one it's always the worst

01:56:51   one but you've got to start somewhere so anyway i'm excited and you know it again i said this to

01:56:55   jason and i could say to you i'm excited i'll see you next week i know i'm really looking forward

01:57:00   to it yeah it's been a long time well december so not too long yeah i could do with it yeah i

01:57:05   could do with a couple of months off from you to be honest well hopefully we didn't jinx the mac pro

01:57:12   with like we did 10 years ago i don't think he can't jinx it hey hey i loved it that's why i never

01:57:19   got invited back to the life show it's like yeah i got it yeah i got it we got guy anyway i will see

01:57:28   you next literally see you next week next week i will see everyone out there listening i will see

01:57:33   like a thousand of you next week in the california theater i look forward to that you get your

01:57:38   tickets if you don't have one now go just go to daring fireball dot net slash the talk show the

01:57:44   ticket stuff is at the top there i look forward to that so i'll see lots of people i will thank

01:57:49   our three sponsors today they were let's see if i can do it off the top of my head we had rocket

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