465: No Dark Modes, Only Dark Rooms


00:00:00   [Intro]

00:00:09   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 465.

00:00:14   Today's show is brought to you by Electric, Ladder, Nom Nom, and Notion.

00:00:19   My name is Mike Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snell.

00:00:22   Hi Jason Snell.

00:00:23   Hi Mike Hurley.

00:00:25   Welcome back to the Summer of Fun!

00:00:27   Summer of Fun!

00:00:29   I have a Snell Talk question for you and it comes from Justin and Justin wants to know,

00:00:35   "Jason, if you could have any animal pocket-sized, what would it be?"

00:00:41   I don't like this question.

00:00:42   Okay.

00:00:43   I don't like this question.

00:00:45   Imagine though, you could have, in this scenario, this is an animal that you would be able to

00:00:51   carry around with you and just put on the desk whenever you like.

00:00:56   You could look at the animal and maybe play with the animal.

00:01:00   What I don't like about it is the potential for squishing.

00:01:04   I'm just worried that this poor little animal is going to get squashed because it's so little.

00:01:10   You put it in your pocket and then you tap your pocket and the animal is broken bones

00:01:13   and is dead.

00:01:16   That's quite a thing to jump immediately to.

00:01:20   No?

00:01:21   Oh, it's the first thing I thought immediately was like, "Oh my god, I'm going to get a little

00:01:26   lion and then I'm going to bump it and it's going to die."

00:01:28   Here's what we're going to do.

00:01:29   I'm going to add to Justin's.

00:01:30   Are you going to give it a force field?

00:01:32   I'm going to say this animal, while also pocket-sized, is impervious to squishing.

00:01:37   Okay.

00:01:38   Alright, so now this is the scenario.

00:01:41   You could have any animal pocket-sized and it can't be squished.

00:01:44   Okay, if it can't be squished, I would...

00:01:46   Okay, Mike, next problem is the poop.

00:01:50   I don't want it in my pocket.

00:01:51   It's going to poop in my pocket.

00:01:53   Jason, you have actual animals in your home that is going to...

00:01:56   I do.

00:01:57   ...make much more of a mess than this thing could.

00:01:58   So I wouldn't worry about that either.

00:01:59   Yeah, but I can't like let the elephant outside.

00:02:02   It's pocket-sized.

00:02:03   It'll get taken by a bird.

00:02:04   It will have a little box or something.

00:02:05   Even if it's got a force field or it'll have a little box.

00:02:08   Okay.

00:02:09   Yeah.

00:02:10   Alright.

00:02:11   So I have a little pocket-sized elephant that lives on my desk and goes in a box.

00:02:12   Okay, so this elephant is your choice?

00:02:14   Well, if it wasn't squishing, if the squishing force field wasn't there, I was actually going

00:02:20   to say I think I would like to make an aquarium with a whale in it.

00:02:23   Now that's an excellent one.

00:02:25   Right?

00:02:26   Like I do a little saltwater aquarium and I get a whale.

00:02:29   And I have little like, I don't know, krill flakes that I put in it.

00:02:34   And it's like a whole aquarium, but it's just got a humpback whale in it.

00:02:38   Yeah.

00:02:39   No, that is a superb choice, which also solves the two problems anyway.

00:02:44   You can't squish it because it's in the aquarium.

00:02:46   Yeah, that's right.

00:02:47   And it's a fish.

00:02:48   How much mess can it make?

00:02:49   It's not a fish.

00:02:50   Well, you know what I mean.

00:02:51   But it's in a fish bowl.

00:02:52   It's in an aquarium.

00:02:53   So it's got a constrained space.

00:02:55   You can call it a fish even though it technically isn't.

00:02:58   Well, you feel that way, but people feel a lot of things that aren't right.

00:03:03   But if I had to choose with a force field and I didn't go with the whale thing, I think

00:03:08   elephant or maybe a hippo, because hippos are adorable, but they're also incredibly

00:03:12   dangerous.

00:03:13   But a pocket-sized hippo would just be so cute.

00:03:16   And the hippo could have like a little, not like an aquarium, because it would have like

00:03:20   a little terrain that it could live in where it could go in the water and then it could

00:03:24   pop back out onto the beach.

00:03:27   And I'd have a little hippo tank.

00:03:30   I'm going to say elephant.

00:03:31   I'm tempted, but I think I'm going to go with hippo.

00:03:33   But again, I think maybe a whale tank would be the best of all.

00:03:37   But the hippo, oh, those hippos are adorable.

00:03:39   And if they couldn't destroy, they couldn't kill us because it'd be so tiny.

00:03:45   That might be fun too.

00:03:46   That's my answer.

00:03:47   I think I will go giraffe.

00:03:49   I just think a pocket-sized giraffe would be hilarious and very adorable.

00:03:55   It would.

00:03:56   You really need the force field for that neck though.

00:03:57   Yes.

00:03:58   I mean, you know.

00:03:59   It seems really dangerous otherwise.

00:04:02   It always is.

00:04:04   Thank you to Justin for that Snow Talk question.

00:04:06   If you would like to write in with a question of any kind, maybe some summer themed questions,

00:04:11   because we're in the summer of fun, go to upgradefeedback.com and send it in.

00:04:18   We have some follow up now.

00:04:20   And this was some, was this some secret follow up?

00:04:23   This is some anonymous follow up.

00:04:24   You gave me this follow up.

00:04:25   It is, I'm going to make it anonymous follow up from a friend of the show.

00:04:32   He knows who he is.

00:04:33   Or they know who they are.

00:04:35   Let's anonymize it even further.

00:04:37   Well, it's too late.

00:04:39   It's fine.

00:04:40   I don't want to confuse him.

00:04:42   He's like, oh, is it me?

00:04:44   Yeah, it's you.

00:04:46   And separately, separately, a person who is not this person, who is Joe Rosenstiel wrote

00:04:51   a piece about this at Six Colors.

00:04:53   If you're a member, it's a member piece.

00:04:54   You could go read it.

00:04:55   A lot of detail about how they make 3D movies and 3D content in general, since we're talking

00:04:59   about that for the Vision Pro.

00:05:01   One of the things I said last week, this is why it's follow up, is I said, I don't know

00:05:05   if they 3D convert a movie.

00:05:08   So most 3D movies are shot in 2D because it's way too unwieldy to shoot with stereo cameras.

00:05:15   So they just convert it.

00:05:16   There's somebody who basically, after the fact, takes the base image and then sort of

00:05:23   generates a second image for a stereo pair to put depth into it.

00:05:30   And what I didn't know was, do the VFX for that, are they rendered in 3D?

00:05:39   Or are they rendered in 2D like the rest of the movie, and then somebody else somewhere

00:05:43   else turns the VFX into 3D?

00:05:47   Because theoretically, a lot of VFX, not all of them, but a lot of VFX are done in 3D.

00:05:52   They're in a 3D system.

00:05:54   I know Pixar does this.

00:05:56   And again, the same person I asked about this, they said Pixar does it, but it's not cheap.

00:06:01   Because you have to qualify every shot in stereo after you've done it in 2D, in mono.

00:06:08   And it can be a lot of extra work.

00:06:10   So the answer for the visual effects question is that mostly they're done in 2D and then

00:06:17   3D converted with the rest of the film.

00:06:19   However, there are a couple exceptions here.

00:06:23   Since these are all computer files for the visual effects, usually the visual effects

00:06:28   houses can send their, like, if you think about Photoshop or something, like layered

00:06:34   files that have all the details of the different layers to the 3D converter, so they've got

00:06:40   a leg up.

00:06:41   They're not working.

00:06:42   Like a normal 2D shot, the way to think about it is the parallax effect.

00:06:47   If I want to have that second shot, I have to create background, because the background

00:06:52   slightly shifts behind the people in the foreground, and you have to invent it.

00:06:56   Well, the advantage of giving a layered shot is that those layers are floating on.

00:07:02   It's just easier to do.

00:07:03   So in some cases, they'll sell, they have to do the conversion, but they will send the

00:07:06   files basically so that they have an easier job of it.

00:07:10   Whereas a standard 2D film image is just a piece of film.

00:07:14   It's just a video file.

00:07:15   It's just flat.

00:07:16   The VFX houses can send the layered stuff in.

00:07:19   That's good.

00:07:20   And then secondarily, in some cases, the production can ask for shots to be done, for the VFX shots

00:07:27   to be done natively in stereo, and then the VFX company will deliver stereo images.

00:07:34   It costs, it's a significant fee if you want it to be in 3D.

00:07:39   So I think that a lot of times they decide it's cheaper to just pay for a conversion

00:07:42   rather than having the VFX house do it.

00:07:45   I assume that means the VFX house rates are substantially more than the 3D conversion

00:07:49   rates.

00:07:51   What Joe Steele's piece on Six Colors says is that it's literally 2X.

00:07:58   It's like literally you can't just do all the work and then a little add-on work.

00:08:04   It's basically, no, you have to do it twice.

00:08:07   You have to do the work twice because you have to do it for both eyes.

00:08:11   So that's the answer.

00:08:13   A lot of the 3D movies that you see, none of it was made in 3D.

00:08:18   Not a bit of it.

00:08:19   Not even the VFX.

00:08:21   But in some cases maybe it was.

00:08:23   So the idea of how easy or cheap or not would it be for some movies to be converted to 3D

00:08:30   for Vision Pro would be not really.

00:08:32   Yeah, well I mean the 3D movies, so the 3D movies are still released in theaters.

00:08:37   A lot of movies are made in 3D.

00:08:39   So those are available for Apple to use.

00:08:42   The ones they're showing off of course is James Cameron who does shoot things in 3D

00:08:46   and it's all in 3D and those are going to be your best case scenarios.

00:08:50   There are some other movies that were shot in 3D.

00:08:52   It does happen from time to time.

00:08:54   The one I keep mentioning, the best 3D experience I think I've ever had was Hugo, which is Martin

00:09:00   Scorsese made a 3D movie, everybody, and it looks great.

00:09:04   But mostly not.

00:09:06   Mostly they're just conversions.

00:09:07   I think the bigger issue here is that there was that story about Apple doing the Godzilla

00:09:13   thing in 3D and this is the answer there.

00:09:16   If Apple wants Apple TV+ content in 3D, they will most likely do it by paying for a 3D

00:09:24   conversion because that's what most movie studios do.

00:09:27   Right, because the stuff they're using for sports is not 3D, is it?

00:09:33   Right, like those cameras that they would use for sports, they're not 3D cameras, they're

00:09:38   VR cameras.

00:09:39   Sports is 3D.

00:09:40   It is.

00:09:41   It is.

00:09:42   It is 3D, it's a stereo view, but I think that's different because it's a fixed camera

00:09:48   position that's using 3D as opposed to having a motion picture where you have thousands

00:09:54   of shots and takes and camera movements and all sorts of stuff making a motion picture.

00:10:00   But yeah, 3D sports, it's real 3D.

00:10:03   Those are stereo cameras doing the work there.

00:10:04   I mean, that we saw in the Vision Pro demo, they want 3D cameras.

00:10:09   They have VR cameras.

00:10:10   No, it's not 3D.

00:10:12   It's just all around you.

00:10:15   There was no sense of depth.

00:10:17   They're not 3D.

00:10:19   It felt like there was depth to me.

00:10:21   I felt like I was immersed.

00:10:22   No, those VR cameras are just about, it's immersive because it's all around you.

00:10:30   You can look around, but it's not 3D.

00:10:33   Well I think the goal would be that it would be immersive and 3D since we have the two

00:10:38   eyes.

00:10:39   Yeah, and sports definitely, ESPN used to have a 3D channel briefly when they were selling

00:10:43   3D TVs.

00:10:44   So it can be done and I would imagine that it would be done.

00:10:49   The ideal would be both, right?

00:10:52   That would be incredible.

00:10:53   If you could look where you wanted and have that sense of full perspective, that would

00:10:58   be kind of amazing.

00:11:01   I don't even know how you do that right now that you think about it because you need to

00:11:06   be able to cover in all directions but have a camera offset.

00:11:09   That's probably not, well if it's 180, if it's full 360, no, but if it's 180 you might

00:11:14   be able to do it.

00:11:16   But yeah, so anyway, that's an interesting question about how you get something to be

00:11:21   immersive and 3D.

00:11:24   There is a note in our document that says Jason found a bug.

00:11:27   I did find a bug.

00:11:28   I found a bug in iOS 16 that's still in iOS 17.

00:11:31   This is part of a larger story that I think I might say for Upgrade Plus, but I wrote

00:11:35   about it on my Macworld column this week.

00:11:38   So we'll put a six colors link in the show notes if you're a six colors member.

00:11:41   You can just read it on six colors if you're a Macworld.

00:11:43   If you're not, you can read it on Macworld.

00:11:45   About discovering that Lauren, there are lots of features of the iPhone that have been added

00:11:50   recently that Lauren didn't know existed.

00:11:53   So she's still doing it like it's 2015.

00:11:56   And I think is a good proxy for the lack of discoverability of a lot of Apple's features

00:12:01   and how a lot of people who don't listen to podcasts or read articles about Apple don't

00:12:08   know that these features exist.

00:12:10   And it's a real challenge for Apple.

00:12:13   But in the event while we were waiting for our lunch to be served while we were up in

00:12:21   Oregon, what I discovered amid this musing about discoverability was a bug, which is

00:12:29   a hilarious bug that I think might speak to how Apple silos different groups.

00:12:36   So I'm just gonna say it here.

00:12:37   I know we got people who work at Apple who are listening.

00:12:41   Maybe they can help this out because I just checked in iOS 17.

00:12:44   It's still there.

00:12:46   So one of the features of the lock screen in iOS 16 on the iPhone is Photoshop, which

00:12:51   is great.

00:12:52   And you can choose what to Photoshop.

00:12:54   You can Photoshop nature.

00:12:56   You can Photoshop shuffle like animals or something, and you can Photoshop faces.

00:13:03   So with a photo library that includes like names and favorites and all this stuff, when

00:13:14   you're given the chance to choose favorites or choose faces to shuffle through in the

00:13:20   lock screen, the lock screen software, whatever it is, it's weird.

00:13:27   It's like a mode.

00:13:28   It's not really an app.

00:13:29   It's a mode.

00:13:30   What you want to do obviously is like pick members of your family.

00:13:33   Like Lauren always has a picture of our kids on her lock screen.

00:13:36   And so I was going in there to say, "Oh, you can use photo shuffle now and just shuffle

00:13:40   all pictures of our kids through your lock screen.

00:13:42   And it'll be delightful because you'll be like, "Oh, look at that.

00:13:44   That's from when they were little," and all that.

00:13:47   Except when you get to that point where you're like, "I want to look at faces and pick the

00:13:51   ones that I want," what's presented to you is one, not your favorites, two, not your

00:14:02   most commonly seen faces, and three, it's a handful of faces.

00:14:11   It's like 10.

00:14:12   And you can't say, "Show me more."

00:14:14   You can't say, "Go to the Photos app and let me pick from there."

00:14:17   So I tap.

00:14:18   I'm like, "Oh, let me show you this amazing feature, photo shuffle."

00:14:22   And I tap and it is the most random selection.

00:14:25   It's like kids who went to school with our kid and appear in a couple of pictures and

00:14:30   just like random people that I see at an Apple event or like, you know, again, almost nobody

00:14:36   even a relative.

00:14:38   And the relatives who were there were the relatives we don't see very often.

00:14:42   And this is in a photo library that has thousands of photos of my son and my daughter and me

00:14:52   and Lauren, and none of us were in there.

00:14:57   I don't get it.

00:14:58   I do not understand how that list should not be one.

00:15:04   If you favorite somebody, they should be in that list, right?

00:15:07   And I, in iOS 17, I tried this and I got Lauren and Jamie and they were marked with little

00:15:14   stars because they're favorites.

00:15:16   But Julian is a favorite too.

00:15:20   And like Lauren's parents and my mom are favorites.

00:15:23   But the only three faces offered to me in iOS 17 were Lauren and Jamie with little stars

00:15:28   next to them saying they're favorites and Dan, Morin, which, you know, I love Dan, but

00:15:33   he's not a favorite face because I reserved that for the very closest of family.

00:15:38   And like, why?

00:15:40   Why is that the case?

00:15:41   And that's, and I, on the iPad running iOS, I was only offered those three faces at all.

00:15:47   I don't know.

00:15:48   My experience is very different to yours.

00:15:50   So when I go to like add a new home screen or whatever, and I press photo shuffle, it

00:15:56   says people and I can select from all of my named faces.

00:16:00   I can't, I see none of that.

00:16:02   Ooh, that's weird.

00:16:03   There's something odd going on with your, with your, either your photo library.

00:16:08   Are you using photo library?

00:16:09   Shared photo library?

00:16:10   Yes.

00:16:11   That's weird.

00:16:12   Well, I don't know what's happening to you.

00:16:15   I have heard from multiple, I have heard from multiple people who say they've had the same

00:16:19   experience where what the face, the faces that they're offered are not, and the part

00:16:23   that really got me was when I went, so Lauren's phone didn't have people tagged.

00:16:28   So I went in and I tagged the people and I merged some faces together, which is not really

00:16:32   fun, but I did it.

00:16:33   And I, I, you know, you can favorite people and all that, like you can do that stuff.

00:16:38   And then I went back and there was no effect, which, which also suggests to me that either

00:16:42   this is a bug at a higher level or it is not picking up the, it's not picking up the, the

00:16:51   changes.

00:16:52   Yeah.

00:16:53   So.

00:16:54   Something's gotten broken there for sure.

00:16:57   Something super weird.

00:16:58   And like I said, not only did this happen on my wife's iPhone 11, I want to say, 11

00:17:07   or 12, something like that, but it also happened on an M2 iPad running iOS 17 differently in

00:17:17   that it showed me fewer faces, but also did not show me favorites.

00:17:21   And I just don't get it.

00:17:22   I just don't, I don't understand why you have this feature.

00:17:24   So anyway, if, uh, if anybody is out there at Apple, I would like to know, because I

00:17:29   looked at that and I thought this is something that, uh, the photos team and the lock screen

00:17:35   team aren't talking to each other.

00:17:37   It seems like to me like that there's something going on with the library, right?

00:17:41   Like, you know, like there's something with maybe the library or your library size and

00:17:45   that feature just not working together because it's clearly not a device issue, right?

00:17:50   Like, and it's clearly not a person issue.

00:17:53   Yeah.

00:17:54   And as Richard Thompson just reported in our, in our chat, he's only seeing seven people

00:17:57   and not everybody who is favorited.

00:17:59   And Emma said, I only have the option of picking one of my actual favorites and one totally

00:18:05   random friend.

00:18:06   I don't have that many pictures.

00:18:07   This is very weird.

00:18:09   This was my response, which is fundamentally when you build this feature, it should be

00:18:13   all.

00:18:14   And also the limit of what's in there baffles me, right?

00:18:18   It's like why only 10 faces or whatever it is.

00:18:22   Why only three faces on that iPad?

00:18:23   Now, maybe there's some behind the scenes.

00:18:25   Well, we have to rescan all your photos on this device to make sure if they're the right

00:18:29   shape or size or, or get metadata to make them eligible, maybe something is going on

00:18:34   in the background like that.

00:18:35   But you would think the priority would be favorites and then weighted by the most commonly

00:18:43   appearing faces, right?

00:18:45   That would be who you'd want to photo shuffle of.

00:18:48   And I don't know why it's limited and why it couldn't be anybody who has had a face

00:18:52   detected.

00:18:53   But certainly there would be a priority list.

00:18:55   So I fell down this rabbit hole in the midst of discovering all sorts of other things about

00:19:00   iPhone features that, that, that Lauren isn't using that I got a column out of, which is

00:19:05   great.

00:19:06   But this one, I just, I couldn't, I couldn't believe it.

00:19:08   So yeah, yeah, I guess I should file a feedback, right?

00:19:12   She should.

00:19:13   Anyway, weird, super weird, especially since it's in iOS 17 still.

00:19:17   Yeah.

00:19:18   And so we, Jason did mention discoverability thing.

00:19:20   We're going to talk about feature discoverability and upgrade plus today.

00:19:23   If you haven't signed up before you can go to get upgrade plus.com.

00:19:26   It's just $5 a month or $50 a year around this time of the year.

00:19:30   We do have a lot of people who are resubscribing for their annual plans because this week we

00:19:35   launched upgrade plus originally in June of 2020.

00:19:40   Yeah.

00:19:41   Uh, thank you so much.

00:19:42   If you have continued your subscription and always thank you if you continue subscription

00:19:47   means a lot to me and Jason.

00:19:48   Thank you.

00:19:49   Thank you.

00:19:49   Thank you.

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00:22:09   Let's go back to the B-Tails.

00:22:13   The B-Tails, a segment that everybody loves and loves the name.

00:22:18   Yeah, I've got resounding feedback.

00:22:21   Everybody loves it.

00:22:22   To me, it was one person who was upset but I'm going to keep saying it and for that one

00:22:30   person, welcome back to the B-Tails.

00:22:34   That one person also decided to lecture us on how words are pronounced.

00:22:39   There's only one way that a word can be pronounced and so yes, I'm sending bad vibes to that

00:22:45   person.

00:22:46   Sorry everybody.

00:22:47   When you make something that's in audio, people have opinions about how you pronounce things.

00:22:52   It's fine.

00:22:53   I have dealt with this for enough of my life now that I just wore off a duck's track.

00:23:00   I'll reply with a gif.

00:23:01   How about that?

00:23:03   I usually just say something along the lines of "I said it right!"

00:23:07   This is a name that I made up so whenever I say it's the way it's said because I call

00:23:12   them betas but this is called the B-Tails because as we said before, the B-Tails doesn't

00:23:16   really make any sense.

00:23:18   It sounds like a horse in the horses of the province of Rumour Roundup, okay?

00:23:22   And remember everyone, when I say B-Tails, you're supposed to say "woo-hoo" in your head.

00:23:27   So second, the developer betas are now available.

00:23:32   So this came out last week so we're on beta 2.

00:23:34   I think of basically everything.

00:23:36   Typically this means that the public beta is around the corner because it's based on

00:23:42   this usually unless something disastrous has occurred.

00:23:46   I would probably say within the next week, if not this week, next week, we may be on

00:23:51   to developer beta time.

00:23:53   Usually July-ish, right?

00:23:54   Like if not end of June, start of July and tends to be beta 2 so I would expect that

00:24:02   to be the case here because everyone that I know that's running them is having a good

00:24:06   time.

00:24:07   I've not heard of any real horror stories yet of things going wrong so we'll see about

00:24:11   that.

00:24:12   We're going to talk about your beta strategy soon at the end of this topic once we go through

00:24:18   some stuff here because I didn't want to ask you yet about your experiences because that's

00:24:22   a whole thing.

00:24:23   But there's a few things that have come out as part of beta 2 and more.

00:24:26   So Apple has now added pass keys for iCloud accounts so you will now be able to sign up

00:24:33   and have your iTunes, I guess your Apple ID I should say, as a pass key instead of a pass

00:24:38   word.

00:24:39   I'm really confused by this and I hope that it comes into focus because here's what I

00:24:46   want, right?

00:24:47   I want to biometrically authenticate to log into my Apple ID for things like, like I have

00:24:56   to go to like Apple Podcasts Connect and they're like, "Oh, put in your Apple ID password and

00:25:02   username and then I'm going to send a six digit number to all your devices and put that

00:25:08   in here."

00:25:09   And that happens to me.

00:25:10   I do that at the Apple store.

00:25:12   I would really like it if when I'm logged in to an Apple device and it has my full authority,

00:25:20   I would really like to never have to do that again.

00:25:23   And I don't know whether that's using Apple's home grown authentication thing that seems

00:25:28   to exist in some places or is that pass keys or is that going to be transitioned to pass

00:25:32   keys?

00:25:33   I don't know.

00:25:34   I just, every time I log in somewhere where Apple wants me to put my password into a web

00:25:41   login I think to myself, "Why am I doing this?

00:25:45   Shouldn't I be able to use Face ID or Touch ID to authenticate?"

00:25:48   So anyway, that's what I hope we will get to with this sort of thing.

00:25:54   For reading Dan's article on six colors, you can, but if it's your Mac, you have to authenticate

00:26:00   in your iPhone.

00:26:01   In your iPhone, I know.

00:26:02   Well that's part of the problem here.

00:26:04   I've got Touch ID.

00:26:05   That should be good enough.

00:26:07   But honestly, this feels like a thing where I expect we'll probably hopefully maybe get

00:26:14   there, but it's early.

00:26:16   Like this is early.

00:26:19   It's a good start.

00:26:20   It's a good start.

00:26:21   It was phrased, I thought it was fascinating, which is Apple has generated a pass key for

00:26:24   you.

00:26:25   Like for every Apple ID.

00:26:27   Like Apple has done it.

00:26:28   Like it's done.

00:26:29   You can't say no.

00:26:30   It's there.

00:26:31   You don't have to use it.

00:26:32   You don't have to get it.

00:26:33   You don't have to do anything, but like they did it.

00:26:34   That's good though.

00:26:35   I like that.

00:26:36   I do too.

00:26:37   Just do it and then I'll decide if I want to use it or not.

00:26:41   Apple News Plus is getting crossword puzzles.

00:26:46   This is a surprise to me.

00:26:47   True story.

00:26:48   I mean, if you're an Apple News Plus subscriber, you'll now be able to use crossword puzzles

00:26:52   that Apple have made.

00:26:53   They've got like more traditional crosswords and they have some simple, what are they called?

00:26:58   Five by five crosswords.

00:27:01   Mini puzzles.

00:27:02   Yeah.

00:27:03   Mini puzzles.

00:27:04   I expect this is a, we're going to do what the New York Times does.

00:27:08   Yeah.

00:27:09   Yep.

00:27:10   That's what it is.

00:27:11   Is they're adding value to the News Plus subscription by integrating games starting with, you know,

00:27:21   crosswords.

00:27:23   And I don't know where all the crossword content is coming from, but...

00:27:27   I expect Apple's doing it, right?

00:27:30   Like in the same way that they would do music.

00:27:32   You know, they have like editors.

00:27:34   I would assume they have a crosswords editor and that person's creating crosswords.

00:27:39   It also could be that they've got deals with content providers who have their crosswords

00:27:45   and that those crosswords will appear in News Plus.

00:27:48   That is possible.

00:27:49   Right?

00:27:50   Like they have deals with other content.

00:27:51   I don't know if I'm like, do I get the New York Times crossword puzzle in News Plus?

00:27:54   If I log in as a New York Times subscriber in News Plus, do I get it then?

00:27:58   Well, the answer to those questions is no right now.

00:28:01   Is no.

00:28:02   Okay.

00:28:03   And also from the reporting that I've seen, there are no credits.

00:28:06   You know, like Apple will sometimes credit you.

00:28:08   Oh.

00:28:09   So there's no like crossword provided by the...

00:28:14   It seems like this is Apple's crossword that they have made.

00:28:18   It does have...

00:28:19   It has a credit for the creator of the crossword, but no like source of the crossword.

00:28:24   Very interesting.

00:28:25   I think...

00:28:26   So if you're scratching your head about why this is, other than the fact that puzzles

00:28:29   traditionally were part of the newspaper, you know, when newspapers were on paper, is

00:28:36   that New York Times has had actually quite a lot of success with its puzzles, with its

00:28:41   games group, and that they view it as a thing that increases people's loyalty, or I guess

00:28:49   Julie Alexander would have me say decreases churn.

00:28:51   So I'll say that.

00:28:52   Decreases churn.

00:28:53   Basically you're thinking, oh, do I really want to keep the New York Times?

00:28:56   And then you say to yourself, oh, but the puzzle.

00:28:59   They also offer it as a separate subscription.

00:29:01   Which I got from my mom.

00:29:02   Like my mom has been on Wordle since the beginning.

00:29:05   She plays Wordle every day.

00:29:07   And when it moved to the New York Times, she then found Spelling Bee.

00:29:12   And I was like, and I was watching a play and I was like, mom, I'm just going to buy

00:29:16   you this subscription and you can play as many of these as you want.

00:29:20   And every single day she plays Spelling Bee and Wordle.

00:29:23   And I'm like, great.

00:29:24   Lauren does the Spelling Bee and the New York Times crossword every day.

00:29:28   It's true.

00:29:29   So there's power in this.

00:29:30   And I think that inside Apple, somebody said, you know, we should build this into news plus

00:29:36   because that makes news plus have that value where honestly it's one of those.

00:29:41   I look at news plus, which I use news plus essentially to read Wall Street Journal articles

00:29:47   that I can't read on the internet.

00:29:49   That's literally how I use news plus.

00:29:51   I look at this and I think this is like a good reason to have news plus for $5 a month

00:29:56   or more likely as part of the Apple one bundle.

00:29:59   Now you get crosswords and little mini puzzles.

00:30:01   Like that's, I think it's really smart on Apple's part because it can't, it can't have

00:30:05   cost.

00:30:06   I'm sure there, you know, there's development time and they got to get the puzzles, but

00:30:09   like this seems like a reasonable investment.

00:30:12   I'm not saying cheap, but like a reasonable investment to stick a toe in the water of

00:30:19   creating more stickiness for news plus actually makes sense to me.

00:30:24   So I would honestly say not just stickiness, just like a reason, like a point.

00:30:28   Yeah.

00:30:29   Right.

00:30:30   Yeah.

00:30:31   I don't, I really don't like, I have a big problem with news services that deliver push

00:30:37   notifications.

00:30:38   I'll say that as a preface to what I'm about to say.

00:30:40   Like Adina has a notification strategy that I don't fully understand.

00:30:45   We, you know, everybody has people, every listener listening to this right now has a

00:30:49   person in their life that they love endlessly who has a notification strategy.

00:30:52   I don't understand.

00:30:53   My wife is that person for me and she gets push notifications for Apple news and the

00:30:57   stuff that they give is the most, I don't know who this is meant to be targeting.

00:31:01   It is like the biggest breadth of stuff she gets like from big sporting events to world

00:31:08   and I was like, why do you, why do you get these?

00:31:10   And she's like, I like to know.

00:31:11   I just, but anyway, I don't understand who news plus is supposed to be for.

00:31:18   Like I don't really get the whole point of this thing.

00:31:21   Uh, I, and so if they're going to have things like this, it's like, this is actually potentially

00:31:27   better for people because it's, they're giving original content of their own, which is of

00:31:33   use rather than just like we bundled up a bunch of services that will work for us on

00:31:38   the terms that we've set, which most people don't like.

00:31:41   Yeah.

00:31:42   Well, this plus is really amorphous.

00:31:44   It's like you get access to stuff like magazines and the wall street journal for some articles

00:31:48   and there's like some stuff bundled in, which is, which is good, right?

00:31:52   I don't, I don't pay for the wall street journal, but I can read some of their articles and

00:31:55   news plus that that is a little bit of a value.

00:31:58   It is a place that is crying out for other things to add value to that service, whether

00:32:03   you're buying it on its own or part of the bundle.

00:32:06   It also gets people into the app, which I think is valuable.

00:32:08   They put the new, the sports notifications in there too.

00:32:11   And that's another example of them trying to put other things of value in that service.

00:32:18   And so puzzles.

00:32:19   Yeah, I think it makes complete sense.

00:32:21   Even if is our puzzles news?

00:32:23   Well, no, but like the New York times has shown that you can actually build a pretty

00:32:28   successful business on puzzles and puzzles.

00:32:31   Aren't cool.

00:32:32   I know, right?

00:32:33   Like they're not video games and they're not even iPhone games.

00:32:37   They're even if they're on the iPhone, they're like, they're slow.

00:32:41   They're for older people and yet they're incredibly popular and older people have money to spend

00:32:47   on stuff like this.

00:32:48   So let me tell you, uh, I think it's a smart idea.

00:32:51   I would just, just, Hey, look, listener, if you get push notifications from a news app

00:32:58   of any kind, just try turning them off for like two weeks and just see how it makes you

00:33:03   feel.

00:33:04   I think it's not good.

00:33:05   Like we don't need our news beamed directly to us.

00:33:08   Like we can go get it.

00:33:10   Like that would, that's my recommendation.

00:33:12   Moving on from that, uh, Joe Hirabar who makes Timery, uh, posted on Mastodon.

00:33:18   Two things that I like the look of coming from beta two, interactive widgets can start

00:33:23   live activities.

00:33:26   That is a awesome thing, right?

00:33:28   So you use Timery, you start a timer on the new interactive widget.

00:33:33   It doesn't open Timery, but the live activity begins and live activities can now have interactive

00:33:39   buttons because they are built on the widget framework.

00:33:43   So Timery has a button in the live activity currently and you press that button and it

00:33:48   opens the app and stops your timer.

00:33:51   But with beta two, if I now press that button, the timer stops and the live activity ends.

00:33:57   Very cool.

00:33:59   Very cool stuff.

00:34:00   Oh, that's really good.

00:34:01   Yep.

00:34:02   And LG is the first company to partner with Apple to add Airplay to their TVs in quote

00:34:08   select hotels later this year.

00:34:12   This is something where like, I'm happy they're going to add this, but like Chromecast already

00:34:16   exists.

00:34:17   Like Apple has lost this race.

00:34:19   Like I will use this fine, but like I don't feel like I need it.

00:34:24   Like I'm not going to start making hotel choices based on Airplay.

00:34:28   This is a long game thing.

00:34:29   This is, this is like them putting a TV app on, uh, an air, air, uh, yeah, an Airplay on

00:34:35   like, um, TV, random TVs and Roku boxes and things like that.

00:34:39   This is a long game.

00:34:41   I think the idea here is Apple would like eventually all TV manufacturers to include

00:34:47   this functionality in their hotel mode.

00:34:50   So that in five years or 10 years, every TV that's in a hotel has, uh, this hotel mode

00:34:58   and the hotel mode.

00:34:59   I mean, it's not like in some ways this is not super high tech stuff.

00:35:03   It's, it's really like, um, better integration of what's already there.

00:35:08   Cause you can already, these TVs already do have this stuff, but I went to, um, this was

00:35:13   like last year.

00:35:14   I think I might've even told the story on the podcast, but like there were a bunch of

00:35:18   Roku TVs.

00:35:19   So like probably LG or well, sell G2 Roku, maybe not.

00:35:22   Um, Roku TVs in this, uh, hotel, we stay out a lot.

00:35:27   That's right across the street from the basketball arena at university of Oregon.

00:35:31   So I'm not too far away from where the kids live.

00:35:34   And they had, they put on all these fancy new TVs and the Roku TVs and I have a Roku

00:35:39   TV at home.

00:35:40   So I opened it up and I think, well, can I airplay?

00:35:42   Cause I know they've got airplay, but it's this weird thing where they're like, they,

00:35:45   they were all named the same thing.

00:35:48   So you couldn't tell which one you were trying to connect to because they had just installed

00:35:51   them.

00:35:52   They were all preselected on the wifi.

00:35:53   And I was like, well, can I read?

00:35:54   That's a fun game.

00:35:55   You know what I mean?

00:35:56   Oh yeah.

00:35:57   Just play it, play into it.

00:35:58   See if it is mine.

00:35:59   Well, I couldn't get any of them.

00:36:00   I decided to reset it.

00:36:01   And what that did is it took it off the wifi network.

00:36:04   And then at that point I sort of just ran away and said, I feel bad for whoever gets

00:36:08   this room after me.

00:36:09   I've broken the TV now.

00:36:10   Yeah, basically.

00:36:11   So what I'm saying is all that tech was there, but it was broken because of configuration.

00:36:17   So what this system is, is it puts a, it puts a 2d barcode up, you scan it and it connects

00:36:24   your device to the network.

00:36:27   And I believe like tells it what the device is that it's air playing to and they make

00:36:32   a connection.

00:36:33   And then it's like, yes, now you can just airplay to it.

00:36:37   That's a, it's a nice thing.

00:36:38   It is not earth shattering.

00:36:40   Cause like I said, I feel like a lot of this tech was probably already there, but they're

00:36:42   trying to get it together.

00:36:44   My guess is because they put, started having devices with airplay in hotels and people

00:36:48   are saying, what the hell?

00:36:49   I can't airplay to this.

00:36:50   This just happened in the Airbnb.

00:36:52   We stayed at last week is it had an airplay thing and I could not get it to work.

00:36:55   I just, I just couldn't get it to work.

00:36:58   Um, so I think that there, that's the value in this and it's, it's going to take years,

00:37:02   right?

00:37:03   I think they just want this and all the manufacturers will, we'll put it in like they put in airplane.

00:37:07   It'll eventually be in there.

00:37:08   It's in a hotel room mode.

00:37:09   So you probably won't even see it.

00:37:10   And like they put in Chromecast, right?

00:37:12   If you buy the TV.

00:37:13   Yes, exactly.

00:37:14   And Chromecast is already there.

00:37:15   So it gets Apple stuff in there, uh, so that people who are using Apple devices can use

00:37:20   their plans to the Chromecast.

00:37:21   And, and that's good because Chromecast has its limitations.

00:37:24   There are things I can only do on Chromecast and there are things I can only do on Airplay.

00:37:27   So um, yeah.

00:37:28   Anyway, good.

00:37:29   Check back in 10 years on this.

00:37:32   We'll make this part of the decade.

00:37:34   Maybe maybe Airplay has changed.

00:37:36   I think Airplay 2 did change.

00:37:39   If I initiate an Airplay, say of a YouTube video, my phone's not involved in that anymore.

00:37:45   Depends.

00:37:46   Depends.

00:37:47   If a device has Airplay 2, I believe that's the idea is that it picks it up and it does

00:37:52   the streaming like Chromecast.

00:37:53   If it doesn't have support for that, it will just take the video.

00:37:58   This is what I ran into actually at that Airbnb over the weekend is I wanted to watch something

00:38:03   from Netflix on my iPad and I chose the TV to, I think cast to it.

00:38:08   I think it was using Chromecast stuff.

00:38:11   And what it did was open the Netflix app on the TV and try to go to that thing and then

00:38:18   say, Oh no, I'm not logged in.

00:38:19   And then it gave up.

00:38:21   I'm like, um, or you could just play the video that I'm trying to play, but it was trying

00:38:26   to do a handoff because it had a Netflix app.

00:38:28   And I actually ran into the Netflix password sharing thing because these people actually

00:38:32   were logged in, but they, they had a, uh, a user for their Airbnb and Netflix was like,

00:38:38   this doesn't appear to be, you know, you are you.

00:38:40   And I'm like, Oh no, I just got them in trouble with Netflix.

00:38:43   I walked away from that too.

00:38:44   And I just watched it on my iPad.

00:38:45   I wonder if like hotels have like a specific configuration, right, that stops that.

00:38:51   Cause I've never hit that in a hotel, but maybe in an Airbnb where it's someone's television.

00:38:55   Depends on the TV implementation too.

00:38:58   Anyway, I think this is, I suspect that this is somebody at Apple who's in charge of this

00:39:01   stuff, uh, talking to hotel partners or having this experience with people in hotels and

00:39:06   realizing that there are some things that they could do to upgrade the, the in room

00:39:10   version of this.

00:39:12   So good for them.

00:39:13   And then, yeah, and then wait until every TV is turned over in every hotel room.

00:39:17   So years.

00:39:18   I had a thought, I don't know if there is an answer to this.

00:39:22   I don't know if you know the answer to this, but I would be intrigued if somebody did know.

00:39:25   So I was watching a video that David Sparks did for his max Sparky Labs where he was showing

00:39:30   off how good the new dictation is, um, with the transformer model that Apple's using.

00:39:34   And it is way better and it does things that I would want, um, dictation to do more reliably,

00:39:40   which is like punctuation and stuff like that, which I know the last one.

00:39:43   The last one that they added some of that, but this looked much more successful actually

00:39:49   transcribing what he was saying.

00:39:51   And it was making me wonder if Apple is using this machine learning model for the new Siri

00:40:00   where you now can remove the "hey" command.

00:40:04   The reason it made me think this is if they're using a more advanced machine learning model,

00:40:09   maybe it has a better, uh, accuracy rate of understanding if it's actually being asked to command.

00:40:17   Right.

00:40:17   Right.

00:40:17   But like people phrase things differently.

00:40:20   And if I'm just, if like, if it thinks I've said that word, but it's in the middle of a sentence

00:40:27   that maybe would just disregard it more.

00:40:29   And I'm, I was just wondering if that's the case and maybe that's why they've been able to do this

00:40:34   is they have more powerful machine learning for Siri.

00:40:38   And if they do, that could be really cool, but I haven't heard them mention that, but I do wonder

00:40:44   why wouldn't they be using this speech detection model for Siri if they're using it for like the

00:40:51   keyboard and for dictation.

00:40:53   I don't know.

00:40:54   Well, maybe Mike's, uh, army of secret informants could, uh, inform us about this.

00:40:59   My guess is that for understanding what you're saying, it's possible that they're using them,

00:41:08   the model to better understand, you know, what you're saying.

00:41:12   Like there's, there's the act of taking speech and making a text, but then interpreting the text,

00:41:17   it might be using that model.

00:41:18   But my guess about dropping the hay from the command is that they've actually done machine learning

00:41:26   training to detect what a voice sounds like when it's giving a command and, and maybe what they're

00:41:34   saying.

00:41:34   Like, uh, um, sentiment analysis kind of thing.

00:41:38   Yeah.

00:41:38   Like it's actually, and with machine learning, you could do this, you could, you could train it on lots of

00:41:43   people trying to give a smart assistant a command and lots of people just having regular conversations

00:41:48   and.

00:41:49   Theoretically you could train it so that it is with much better confidence, able to differentiate

00:41:55   between when you say the trigger word followed by stuff that it's a command versus when it's not a

00:42:01   command.

00:42:01   And I think you'd have to do that if you're going to shorten it like that is you'd really need to detect

00:42:07   that this is a command.

00:42:08   They have to do this a little bit on the Apple watch because there's the whole, you know, you raise it up

00:42:12   and then you just speak a command and, but, but a lot of times you're raising your arm just to raise your

00:42:18   arm and you're not speaking at a command.

00:42:19   You're just speaking and it has to do some detection there to try and figure out if you're actually talking

00:42:25   to it or not.

00:42:25   So that's my guess is that it's actually been trained.

00:42:28   To figure out what is probably a, a command for the assistant and what is just a, you know, a mistake

00:42:36   that, you know, it's not, it's not, we're just mentioning the assistant's name.

00:42:40   We're not giving it a command.

00:42:41   Uh, over the weekend, you told me that you have an aggressive beta strategy for this summer.

00:42:49   That were the words you used.

00:42:50   You're you're yeah, you're over emphasizing aggressive here, but yes, I, my plan is to, my plan is to go on

00:42:57   the beta sooner rather than later.

00:42:58   I, um, I always, the truth is I always regret waiting too long.

00:43:04   I always regret installing it on a second system or on an external drive in case of Mac OS and using it, but

00:43:10   not really using it because I'm not, I'm not actually using it with my stuff, right?

00:43:14   I'm not actually using it in my main context.

00:43:16   I'm using it in a secondary context.

00:43:19   So I think this year I am going to, I think I'm going to put my Mac on the beta and I'm going to leave my, my

00:43:26   Mac studio on the beta and I'm going to leave the MacBook air, not on the beta specifically.

00:43:31   So basically I'm going to have to embrace like, uh, doing podcasts with the MacBook air, for example.

00:43:38   You've done that so many times though, like you always get there.

00:43:41   Well, in fact, I did that one, one year I had the Mac mini server in my office still at that point.

00:43:46   And I bought a really long USB cable and I was actually just recording on the Mac mini.

00:43:50   All my microphones were plugged into the Mac mini instead.

00:43:54   Um, so yeah, it can be done if, if audio hijack isn't going to work with the beta, I can do that.

00:43:59   Uh, but that gives me time with it.

00:44:01   And likewise with the iPad.

00:44:02   And I think the other one that's scary is the iPhone, but I think I'm just going to, I'm going to embrace it and put the

00:44:08   iPhone on it and put the Apple watch on it and just see what happens.

00:44:11   And if things break or are frustrating for the summer, that's just how it goes.

00:44:15   But like, I, I, I really do want to live with this stuff.

00:44:19   And, and I always shy away from it.

00:44:22   And it's like, again, oh, I'll just, I'll install it on a different phone or a different iPad or a Mac I reboot into, but

00:44:28   then, you know, you're not using it.

00:44:30   You're, you're a tourist in the beta.

00:44:32   I've said this before.

00:44:33   It's like, and it's just deeply unfulfilling to be a beta tourist because you're not living your life there.

00:44:38   You need to, you need to live with the betas, not visit them.

00:44:41   If that makes any sense.

00:44:42   So I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna do, I, again, didn't install beta one.

00:44:47   Now we're on beta two.

00:44:48   We may be there at the point where it might even happen this week.

00:44:51   I kind of like cut over to it and just suffer the consequences because I need to spend the quality time with this stuff.

00:44:58   I agree with you, which I think I am mentally committing to beta three where beta three is the earliest I've ever gone on.

00:45:07   Yeah.

00:45:08   But I think...

00:45:09   That'll probably be the public beta two.

00:45:11   Yes.

00:45:11   Probably beta also will be beta three, I think.

00:45:14   Oh, you think it will be three?

00:45:15   Okay, fair enough.

00:45:15   I suspect it could be four, but like July is what they said.

00:45:18   So, you know, maybe if three goes well, they'll, they'll flip that one out.

00:45:22   Otherwise it'll be four.

00:45:23   Yeah, I was wondering if it'd be two, but I think you're right.

00:45:26   It's probably going to be three.

00:45:27   Um, and I, I think I'm going to go then.

00:45:29   I think I'm going to go there for the same reason.

00:45:32   I'm not gonna move any Macs to it.

00:45:35   I don't think it's not important for me realistically, um, to do that, but I don't know.

00:45:42   Maybe the widgets, like maybe I'll move my Mac book air, like I don't record on that machine.

00:45:46   So we'll see.

00:45:47   But I, I'm going to go with the iPhone.

00:45:49   Um, I think I'm not gonna, I would like to maybe not do my iPad because I find myself in a

00:45:57   situation where I can't do any banking for the summer and that becomes complicated.

00:46:01   None of the banking apps, all my banking apps just just locked me out because they think I've

00:46:05   jailbroken my iPhone, which is just like a incredibly ridiculous thing.

00:46:09   Like it frustrates me greatly.

00:46:11   I have one, uh, before we leave the details behind, I thought occurred to me having spent a

00:46:17   couple of weeks in New Zealand.

00:46:18   I wonder how New Zealanders or Kiwis, if they want to be called that, pronounce beta because

00:46:27   New Zealanders change the vowel.

00:46:28   So are they changing the vowel from beta to something else?

00:46:34   Do they say beta, but they mean beta or I don't know, right?

00:46:39   Right.

00:46:39   Like, because there's, we have different vowel sounds between, uh, how, how James pronounces

00:46:44   it and how we pronounce it.

00:46:46   Beta and beta.

00:46:47   Uh, I should change the vowels.

00:46:50   I should be saying beta.

00:46:51   I should be saying beta too.

00:46:53   I know, but you don't, but I don't except in details.

00:46:55   So I would love to hear from a Kiwi about how they pronounce beta because I honestly, I can't

00:47:01   determine how it is because they it's like too many vowel changes there.

00:47:06   So please, somebody from New Zealand, um, tell me how you pronounce beta.

00:47:11   I'm going to ask you to contact Jason on, on Mastodon.

00:47:14   I had the, the, the feeling there that I was going to say to send it in, but no, I don't.

00:47:19   I feel like I'm going to end up with every person from New Zealand.

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00:49:27   So over the last week, the vision pro SDK was released.

00:49:34   So this wasn't made available at WWDC.

00:49:37   I had the thought Jason, that maybe this was a purposeful thing.

00:49:42   So people would spend time with the other SDKs.

00:49:47   I don't know that to be the case, but it came out so soon after that it doesn't really

00:49:52   feel like a case of like, oh, it wasn't ready yet.

00:49:54   I don't know.

00:49:54   Uh, I mean, it might be that, that there are like aspects of the release that would have

00:50:00   required people to be brought into the circle of trust and they decided not to do that

00:50:05   until, until the product was ready to go and they had to rename everything to vision OS

00:50:10   from XR OS and all of that kind of stuff.

00:50:12   That's a good point.

00:50:13   Also, and we've talked about this since the announcement, right?

00:50:17   The idea that Apple controlled what vision OS is and what the vision pro is like so

00:50:24   tightly about like, what do we want to talk about?

00:50:26   What do we not want to talk about about the experience?

00:50:28   What do we want to show?

00:50:29   What do we not want to show?

00:50:31   And there's always more to be gleaned as we are now gleaning from the SDK.

00:50:36   And so I think the other part of it was.

00:50:38   If you don't release the SDK, you control 100% of people's perception of the product

00:50:44   for the first few weeks, and then you can release the SDK.

00:50:47   So I think it's some combination, like it has the benefit of allowing them to completely

00:50:51   control the flow of information on this product for a little while when it's at its most,

00:50:55   where people are most attentive to it.

00:50:57   And that there are probably like people involved in posting this stuff who were not in the

00:51:01   loop and had to be brought into the loop.

00:51:03   So as you can imagine with this, there's lots of details and I've compiled a few things

00:51:10   that I thought were pretty interesting that I want to talk to you about.

00:51:13   So obviously we're along with the SDK.

00:51:17   Are these SDTALKs?

00:51:21   No.

00:51:21   S-D-K-D-T-A-L-S?

00:51:23   No.

00:51:24   No?

00:51:24   We don't have a clever name for this one?

00:51:26   I don't, no.

00:51:26   Because I'm not expecting this to be.

00:51:27   Interesting things in the SDK.

00:51:28   All right.

00:51:28   Yes, I'm not expecting this to be a recurring segment throughout the summer.

00:51:31   Okay.

00:51:32   Unless Apple keep releasing SDKs that we don't know about.

00:51:35   If they do.

00:51:35   SDKTALES!

00:51:36   Woo hoo!

00:51:37   If Apple continues to release other SDKs, I will make the commitment to make this a

00:51:42   recurring segment and come up with it.

00:51:43   Okay.

00:51:44   Thank you.

00:51:45   Until that time, no fun names.

00:51:48   Summer of no fun names!

00:51:50   Summer of no fun names, just for this segment.

00:51:53   There's obviously tons of practical and technical information.

00:51:56   They also have a new human interface guidelines update, which is also interesting to read

00:52:00   through if you're a developer.

00:52:02   But because all of this is available, so is the simulator.

00:52:05   And with that, I think comes the stuff that is the most interesting to me and maybe the

00:52:09   stuff that's most interesting to many members of our audience.

00:52:13   Like for example, we now have details about the guest mode of VisionOS, because there

00:52:20   are some prompts about how the guest mode of VisionOS works when you try to enable it.

00:52:26   So you'll kind of give it a bunch of prompts.

00:52:28   It has to be enabled when you're inside of the headset.

00:52:30   So you're wearing the headset and you'd be like, I want to enable guest mode.

00:52:33   You can create a passcode that will be entered by the person when they put the headset on

00:52:38   or not.

00:52:39   It's up to them.

00:52:40   It's a five minute window where if the guest mode is not started, it just reverts back

00:52:44   to your state.

00:52:46   So basically will require your Iris ID.

00:52:49   That's what they're calling it, right?

00:52:50   Or is it called an IID?

00:52:52   I've forgotten now.

00:52:53   Is it?

00:52:54   Yeah, I forget.

00:52:55   Is it IID?

00:52:56   I don't think it is.

00:52:57   I think that was a joke.

00:52:58   I don't remember.

00:52:59   Someone will confirm this.

00:53:00   I think they call it Iris ID.

00:53:02   So basically, I think this makes sense in a way because it's not...

00:53:06   Optic ID.

00:53:08   Is it Optic ID?

00:53:09   Okay.

00:53:10   Optic ID.

00:53:11   Optic ID.

00:53:12   So it's not going to be a blank user account.

00:53:15   They're going to be seeing your user account, your stuff, which I think is the right way

00:53:19   to do this.

00:53:21   It's essentially the same as handing your iPhone unlocked or your iPad unlocked to a

00:53:25   friend to look at something where they can use it.

00:53:29   But what it's doing is it's blocking out some stuff, right?

00:53:34   So that they're not going to be able to look into your most personal things, but they'll

00:53:39   be able to try it out.

00:53:40   I don't know that.

00:53:41   I mean, I assume that.

00:53:42   I think so.

00:53:44   I don't know that stuff is not shown.

00:53:47   Read my emails.

00:53:48   Go ahead.

00:53:50   I can't see it.

00:53:51   I'm watching from out here.

00:53:52   That is the difference.

00:53:53   I mean, I'm sure that there'll be some stuff that maybe is behind the scan, right?

00:53:59   But it is different to giving somebody your iPhone in that you actually can't observe

00:54:04   them.

00:54:05   You are not able to see what they are up to while they are in your headset experience.

00:54:12   Unless one of the parts of this experience is what they had for us in the demos, right?

00:54:16   Where somebody was watching along with what we were doing on an iPad.

00:54:20   And I wonder if that's going to be one of the features is that one person's doing this,

00:54:24   that there's the ability to, this would also help us for things like screen captures, the

00:54:28   ability to project what somebody is seeing on another device, which might be.

00:54:33   So maybe that would be a feature of guest mode is that your host, the host can follow

00:54:37   along on an iPad or on an Apple TV or something while the guest is doing whatever they're

00:54:42   doing.

00:54:43   I would like them to add that.

00:54:44   I don't have a lot of hope for it because that feels like quite a complicated thing.

00:54:49   I don't know.

00:54:50   I mean, they already built a version of it for the demo.

00:54:52   And actually, I think I feel like that for the purposes of press, you're going to have

00:54:57   to be able to capture.

00:54:59   And that might be a way to do it very similar to how we capture an Apple TV, which is you

00:55:03   sort of like set it up on another device that's on the same wireless network.

00:55:07   And you're able to basically capture a video source.

00:55:10   I would bet that that's what it's going to be is that there will be a way to do it, but

00:55:14   it's going to be not like AirPlay and more like having to set up the setting up X code

00:55:20   or whatever, or having it show up in QuickTime player as a video source, something like that.

00:55:24   You have to pair it, put in the code, all of those things, but I bet you'll be able

00:55:29   to capture or view that way.

00:55:31   Okay.

00:55:32   Interesting.

00:55:33   Yeah.

00:55:34   I think I heard on the talk show, John Gruber was mentioning about like what a screenshot's

00:55:39   going to be like.

00:55:40   And I was like, oh yeah.

00:55:41   I'm like, what will they be like?

00:55:42   Like, I don't know what they're going to look like.

00:55:44   Will it be the whole, what you see?

00:55:46   Will it be the, just the app you're looking at?

00:55:50   Snap both of your fingers at once and it takes a screenshot.

00:55:53   What will it be?

00:55:54   Anyway, so, uh, max stories put together a good roundup of early developer reactions

00:55:59   to the simulator and the SDK.

00:56:01   So a bunch of developers like compiling their apps for the first time and showing what they

00:56:05   look like and talking about the ways that they're broken.

00:56:08   It seems like realistically it's trivial to get an iPad app running in VisionOS.

00:56:13   It's just an iPad app, right?

00:56:15   Like from what I could understand, it doesn't have like the fancy translucency and stuff

00:56:20   like that.

00:56:21   It's very clearly.

00:56:23   It will not, if you're a, if, which none of these people exist yet, but if you're like

00:56:27   a savvy user of a vision pro, you'll know it's just an iPad app, right?

00:56:31   Because it just looks like an iPad app.

00:56:34   But when you do the compiling for VisionOS specifically, you get the frosted glass look,

00:56:39   that kind of floating pain effect.

00:56:41   I've seen people talking about the fact of like, and it makes sense.

00:56:44   Dark mode isn't a thing because you can't make it dark.

00:56:49   I would say that there is a potential for dark mode to work with this device depending

00:56:55   on an environment that you're in.

00:56:56   Like there are environments, which are the like the VR places you can go into the fully

00:57:02   immersed things that are dark, like they're night.

00:57:05   So maybe you would want a dark mode, but if it's that frosted glass, it just will, I assume

00:57:12   will adapt to maybe will dim in the UI itself, right?

00:57:17   There are no dark modes, just dark rooms.

00:57:19   Yes, like seriously, like it's, you know, like if, if, in the way that if you have transparency

00:57:24   on the Mac and you have an app with a sidebar, it adapts to your wallpaper.

00:57:29   So I would expect vision pro apps would do the same, but you would still want the iPad

00:57:34   apps to have dark modes, which they would, I'm assuming because I perhaps can.

00:57:38   So your eyes wouldn't be blinded when you're using some kind of iPad app in that environment.

00:57:43   But when developers do compile for vision OS, then the work is needed because there

00:57:49   will be elements of your user interface that maybe won't look right.

00:57:53   But then also you want to take advantage of things.

00:57:58   I think they're called adornments is the name that Apple's giving it for like these controls

00:58:03   that are in their own window that maybe sit to the side or in front of the main UI, which

00:58:09   is like one of the telltale signs of vision OS is these little controls that like pop

00:58:15   out on the side and maybe have like a different angle to them and stuff and look really cool.

00:58:21   But realistically, ornaments, that's says James, not adornments.

00:58:26   I was close.

00:58:27   I was close.

00:58:28   Yeah.

00:58:29   Realistically iPad apps, it's good that they're there, but they're going to be a fallback.

00:58:32   What we're going to want is vision OS apps when we're using vision OS, but for the companies

00:58:36   that won't want to do the work like Google, I'm sure with Google docs and Google sheets,

00:58:42   the option will still be there, which I think is the right call.

00:58:45   And they're not going to feel, I think it will be out of place, but I don't think as

00:58:50   out of place as say using an iPhone app on an iPad.

00:58:53   Like they're not going to look visually right, but they're going to work functionally right.

00:58:56   I feel like, and that will be cool at least.

00:58:59   Like almost like they're running, you know, just like the Mac step is running in a window.

00:59:03   It's almost like that.

00:59:04   This is sort of coming from the iPad and running here.

00:59:07   It's not, it doesn't belong here, but it is here.

00:59:10   Yep.

00:59:11   One of the things that was rumored was the idea of being able to take apps and put them

00:59:15   in a physical space and leave that space and come back to it and they're still there, right?

00:59:19   Like this is one of the things that Mark Gorman was talking about.

00:59:23   And in our demos, we weren't given an experience like that, but we could still assume that

00:59:27   that would be the case because of the way that the windows seem to work, but we were

00:59:31   in this one room.

00:59:33   Well, the simulator, which is hilarious by the way, because it's like an apartment, you

00:59:37   have like this whole apartment and it's all these different rooms in the apartment, but

00:59:41   it is cool because then we get to see things like this where Steve Trout Smith was doing

00:59:45   a bunch of this of opening his various apps in the simulator and putting them in physical

00:59:50   places in this room.

00:59:52   Like one of the things that I wanted them to do, and I'm happy you could do is like

00:59:55   take an audio player and like pin it to a desk, like flat on a desk, you know, so you

01:00:01   could, I could imagine maybe you'd have like widgets, right?

01:00:04   Or like a clock or something like quote unquote widgets and app that looks like a widget,

01:00:08   like say my time tracking app, right?

01:00:10   I would want Timery to just live above my computer screen.

01:00:14   And if I walk away and come back, I could leave the room and come back, but it's always

01:00:17   going to be there.

01:00:19   And it looks like that is the way it will work.

01:00:21   And Steve Trout Smith posted some stuff where he had like one app in the kitchen, one app

01:00:26   in the living room, and they stayed in those physical locations.

01:00:30   How that works for window management, I don't know, but it's cool that it's there.

01:00:34   Yeah, James Thompson had a picture of, he's standing in one room with Pcalc and through

01:00:40   the door to the kitchen is the settings.

01:00:43   Like, ah, settings apps in the kitchen.

01:00:46   Just go to the kitchen if you need any settings.

01:00:48   I've left the settings there for you.

01:00:50   Weird, but fun.

01:00:53   This is the spatial part of spatial computing.

01:00:55   Like it's in the physical space that you're in.

01:00:59   I keep thinking about, and maybe some of this is in there or maybe this is just left for

01:01:03   future versions or whatever, but I keep thinking about apps as like spatial objects.

01:01:09   So like Steve Trout Smith's got broadcasts, you know, and it's on a desk or something.

01:01:14   And I keep thinking like, I almost want to, when I'm listening to a broadcast in Vision

01:01:21   OS, I almost want to like have like a little radio.

01:01:24   Yes, I've been thinking about this too.

01:01:26   It's the audio emitter for broadcast or maybe even the idea of, think about like minimizing

01:01:30   an app.

01:01:31   Could I minimize broadcasts into a little object that I could put somewhere and the

01:01:35   audio would radiate from it like a radio?

01:01:38   So I think yes, Jason, because there are three types of experiences that a developer could

01:01:43   make.

01:01:44   They can make windows, volumes and spaces.

01:01:46   Sure.

01:01:47   Right?

01:01:48   And volumes are described as a depthier app for 3D volume.

01:01:51   SwiftUI scenes that can showcase 3D content using reality kit or unity creating experiences

01:01:57   that are viewable from any angle in the shared space or an app's full space.

01:02:00   And I could imagine a developer creating a little cube, for example, that you put on

01:02:05   the desk.

01:02:06   So Steve, who has got a 3D printer, so Steve could just get on this.

01:02:11   But that's hard, right?

01:02:12   Like that's the hard look.

01:02:13   It is, but I'm really intrigued by that idea.

01:02:15   And the other example I had was, or I've got a couple, one would be like Timery.

01:02:19   Well, okay, Timery interface, but I would love just trying to think about this.

01:02:25   What if there was like an indicator, a light or a sign or something you could put somewhere

01:02:30   that would be your Timery status and you could put it somewhere and it would be like a little

01:02:34   green light if you're in green or red light if you're in red or a little indicator that

01:02:40   says this is the mode that you're in that you could put somewhere.

01:02:43   Because that's part, when I start to think about spatial computing, I start to think

01:02:46   about objects that are not soft, well, they are software, objects that are not UI, that

01:02:53   are indicators.

01:02:55   Just like I've got a clock under my TV that shows the temperature and stuff.

01:02:59   Like I've got these little devices around my house.

01:03:01   I like that idea of, yes, it's driven by an app, but I just want to have the indicator

01:03:06   somewhere and I actually don't care about the app right now.

01:03:08   I can have broadcasts not visible or it's in another room, but I want the radio to come

01:03:13   with me.

01:03:14   I want the radio here that's playing it or I want a PCalc to be able to project the number,

01:03:21   the answer onto the wall or something like that.

01:03:25   I don't know what, but where it's more like you're manifesting, instead of it all just

01:03:30   being inside a window, you're manifesting it into an object or projecting it into the

01:03:34   space.

01:03:35   I think that's really interesting.

01:03:36   So when I was, I mentioned this, I think on this show, I was talking about it a bit before.

01:03:41   My imagination told me that like skeuomorphism is going to be back in a way in which we've

01:03:46   never even imagined, but in a way that I think this makes more sense than it did back then

01:03:52   in the modern context of like, well, you can make the UI look 3D because it will look 3D,

01:03:59   so why not go for that?

01:04:01   The other, so thinking about broadcasts a little bit more, I would say, think about

01:04:05   what Apple has done and historically it's, this is from back from the very beginning.

01:04:11   I mean, with the iTunes and now music app mini player, right?

01:04:16   There's this idea that you take this complex mode and then you just collapse it down to,

01:04:21   it's all like a widget almost.

01:04:23   It is its tiniest thing where it still shows a little album art.

01:04:26   It tells you what the track is.

01:04:27   It's got like a play pause button or whatever, but it's very, very limited, but it's tiny.

01:04:31   It's tiny.

01:04:32   And there's something nice about that.

01:04:34   That's what I keep thinking about with the spatial computing stuff is could you, you

01:04:38   know, I don't, and maybe as I'm not a developer, maybe this is going on, but like there are

01:04:43   times when you want an interface, there are times when you want to set it up and then

01:04:47   just let it run.

01:04:49   And that's whether that's minimizing it or whether that's considering it like a different

01:04:52   mode or whether there's an extension to the app that is a different thing.

01:04:57   Like if I'm listening to a podcast while I'm working, do I want the broadcast interface

01:05:02   up while I'm doing that or would I rather have a radio or a little like thing that looks

01:05:08   like a TV that it's got the podcast art on it, or maybe it's got a wave form or whatever,

01:05:12   but it's like an object from which the audio emanates that I can place anywhere and it's

01:05:17   not user interface or it's very light user interface.

01:05:20   I have spatial audio.

01:05:21   I'm intrigued by that.

01:05:22   So the audio can come from the little box too.

01:05:23   Oh right.

01:05:24   We know that that's how that works, right?

01:05:26   Because we saw that in our demo that if you take FaceTime and you put it in the upper

01:05:29   left, the voice comes from the upper left.

01:05:31   So that would be, yes, I would be able to place my broadcast radio wherever I wanted

01:05:37   off to my left and then I turn away from it and it would be off to my left where I placed

01:05:41   it and just like you'd put a real radio, right?

01:05:45   I think that's, I'm excited about that.

01:05:48   I think this spatial computing stuff is more exciting when you start to think about it's

01:05:52   not just a bunch of computer windows floating in the air, right?

01:05:56   That it can be more than just computer windows that are essentially 2D floating in the air.

01:06:01   I know that James Thompson is saying, you know, dice by Peacock would be a volume because

01:06:05   he would have a tray that would be a physical object that you could see in three dimensional

01:06:10   space where the dice would roll.

01:06:11   And like that makes sense too.

01:06:13   Like I get that.

01:06:14   I just keep thinking about like you could have extensions to apps that are more like

01:06:18   physical objects and I like that idea.

01:06:20   Yeah, I, it's complicated.

01:06:24   I empathize with developers because I think the apps that are going to quote unquote win

01:06:31   the apps that people are going to buy on day one just to try them out, right?

01:06:37   Will be apps that have these kinds of elements to them, right?

01:06:40   Where like, oh, I heard about this app that it plays radio and it's shaped like a radio

01:06:46   and you can put the radio on your desk.

01:06:48   It's like that kind of stuff is going to be incredibly compelling to people.

01:06:53   I don't know if it will be more than a fad, but I think it will work and I think people

01:06:58   will really like those kinds of experiences.

01:07:01   James Thompson's going to be able to buy a new house with the success of James Thompson's

01:07:05   banana drop by pcalc, which does nothing but drop objects into your living room.

01:07:12   Like yeah, there's going to be some aspect of that, which is, you know, show this stuff

01:07:16   off.

01:07:17   I want to see it and it's going to be similar to some of the experiences we've seen in AR

01:07:20   and iPhones and stuff like that.

01:07:23   But yeah, it's, it's the, yeah.

01:07:26   I'm really intrigued by how this can go beyond just a bunch of windows with 2d planes because

01:07:33   that's interesting.

01:07:35   But like, why are you wearing this thing is not just probably not just so that you can

01:07:40   have a whole bunch of windows, 2d windows and 3d space.

01:07:44   There is this element of using computers and the physical space in conjunction and how

01:07:48   those two interact.

01:07:49   So the developer of a crouton, his name's Devin, Devin crouton.

01:07:55   I don't think there's a name, but we'll call them that for this segment.

01:07:58   Devin crouton was showing off how in their, like the recipe app when they have like individual

01:08:04   timers for the things that you're cooking and what they're playing around with is like

01:08:08   popping out those timers and attaching them to like to the oven, to the hob.

01:08:14   Yeah, that's the way.

01:08:15   Rather than multiple timers just existing, your timers are stuck to the things that are

01:08:22   being timed.

01:08:23   Now I was talking in a group about this.

01:08:26   I love this idea.

01:08:27   I would not use vision pro when I'm cooking, but there is a device in the future that I

01:08:32   would, right?

01:08:33   Like that's the idea here, but like these are the things where like, Hey, if you've

01:08:37   got an idea, you just play with it and just see this is where great greatness comes from.

01:08:42   But like that was a genius idea to me.

01:08:45   The problem is I wouldn't want to use this device.

01:08:47   I don't think while I'm cooking a meal, it feels a little big for that, but this is just

01:08:53   the beginning.

01:08:54   So developers have got the simulator, but one of the things we were talking about is

01:09:00   the how developers can actually try these things out.

01:09:02   I think in quite a surprise twist underscore David Smith was posting about the fact that

01:09:07   the first in-person labs that Apple will be running in various locations around the world

01:09:12   happen in July.

01:09:14   Which is incredibly early, but why not?

01:09:19   And development teams will be able to apply for developer kits.

01:09:23   So one of the things that Mark Gurman mentioned in his newsletter this week, friend of the

01:09:27   show, Mark Gurman is that the hardware is done.

01:09:32   And I've heard that through other sources as well.

01:09:34   The hardware is done.

01:09:36   Everything that's coming between now and January is really the software.

01:09:40   But if you think about that, what that means is developer kits will be, are available because

01:09:47   they're making them and it's basically final hardware.

01:09:51   So it's going to be great as a developer kit.

01:09:54   So why would they not seed with developer kits?

01:09:56   So I think that we're going to see it.

01:09:57   Now the developer kits may be, they have to be tethered to a Mac or they've got to have

01:10:01   a lot of limitations and they're not going to have the full OS.

01:10:03   And like, I get it, but it feels like that's going to happen sooner than people think.

01:10:09   And maybe even at volumes that people will be surprised by.

01:10:12   Not everybody's going to want to be able to get them, right?

01:10:14   They're going to have a limited supply.

01:10:16   People are going to apply, they're going to have to show their work.

01:10:19   And Apple's going to have to approve them.

01:10:20   Apple has to prioritize here.

01:10:23   But it feels like that hardware is there.

01:10:26   So if it's there and you're making it, seeding those as developer units is a great idea.

01:10:32   And like the product's out there now and it won't tell the whole story because it won't

01:10:35   be the full on OS, right?

01:10:37   It'll be a developer unit.

01:10:38   I'm sure there'll be sites that write stories about, oh, well, we've got to try it and all

01:10:42   of that.

01:10:43   It's going to be the same because it's going to be in this developer mode, but like they

01:10:46   could totally ship final-ish hardware.

01:10:51   If these reports and what I'm hearing are true, you know, the hardware is pretty good,

01:10:54   pretty solid.

01:10:55   It's the software stuff that's got to come.

01:10:57   So it would make a good developer kit.

01:10:59   I look forward to the app that we're going to make, you know?

01:11:02   Me and you are going to get into the app development game.

01:11:04   We're going to apply for a kit, right?

01:11:06   I think that's what's going to happen.

01:11:09   Just a couple of other tidbits on Vision Pro not related to the SDK.

01:11:12   So Wayne Maher at The Information is reporting on a few features currently missing from the

01:11:16   Vision Pro that could either still be in development or scrapped.

01:11:20   So Apple had planned on there being more fitness and wellness kind of experiences.

01:11:26   They apparently discussed collaborations with companies like Nike and also had a thing where

01:11:31   you could use like the Vision Pro and interactive content, watch content while on stationary

01:11:37   bikes and equipment like that.

01:11:39   But there's none of that yet.

01:11:40   I expect this is coming, but we'll find out.

01:11:43   Full body tracking is another thing.

01:11:45   Apparently these devices have the ability to track the movement of your entire body,

01:11:50   but the software will not be able to do this by the time of release.

01:11:54   Who knows if it will be added later on or when.

01:11:57   And there was also an emphasis on gaming that was pulled back a bit.

01:12:02   And this was, I rewatched the keynote over the weekend.

01:12:05   I've been meaning to do it and I finally got around to doing it because I just wanted to

01:12:09   take in the information one more time.

01:12:12   And one of the things I was struck by in the Vision Pro segment is how they were, I think,

01:12:17   quite clear about this is just the beginning of our story on gaming.

01:12:21   That was one of the bigger kind of like, hey, we promise there's more than just play the

01:12:27   Apple arcade game of a PlayStation controller.

01:12:30   - Right, but we don't want to talk about it right now.

01:12:32   - But they can't talk about it.

01:12:33   - Which I think is, I think that was a very specific choice to not talk about it in that

01:12:38   way and not have the whole thing be framed as a gaming device, which I think is smart,

01:12:43   even if it is also going to be that.

01:12:45   Yeah, Mark Gurman said something about how fitness was pulled out of the plan for this

01:12:49   product and might not exist until the next product, which I find, I don't, I don't know.

01:12:56   Like I find that really disappointing if it's true.

01:12:59   And also I'm not sure quite how they could do it because like there will be fitnessy

01:13:04   apps for this thing, right?

01:13:05   Like that's going to happen.

01:13:06   And so for Apple to be like, yeah, but not Fitness Plus yet, cause you'll have to buy

01:13:10   another one for Fitness Plus in two years.

01:13:13   Like I kind of, I'm skeptical about that.

01:13:15   I mean, maybe, I mean, again, Mark Gurman, he has good sources, but I wonder whether

01:13:19   that's fitness isn't not going to be in this hardware.

01:13:23   Fitness Plus is not going to be in this hardware or if it's, it's not going to be in a shipping

01:13:27   version and that they're, they will follow it up down the line because there are two

01:13:29   different things, right?

01:13:30   They could use this hardware and do a software update to make it stronger as they go.

01:13:36   But, you know, obviously you've got to pick your spots when you're shipping 1.0.

01:13:41   So is it that, or is it like, nope, we're not going to even, we built it into the hardware,

01:13:45   but we're not going to use it because we decided it wasn't good enough and we're just going

01:13:48   to wait for the next version.

01:13:49   That's the stuff we don't know.

01:13:51   Uh, talking about Mark Gurman and he's using it, he, uh, believes he say that he believes

01:13:56   that the top strap for the headsets, the one that goes over the top of your head, the one

01:14:00   that we use, the one that's in that one shot in the keynote will be an additional purchase.

01:14:05   Apple apparently does not consider it to be essential at this stage.

01:14:10   All I'll say is they certainly seemed to think that it was essential for its very important

01:14:15   press demos.

01:14:16   Yes, I think it is.

01:14:17   I would say that that is an essential piece of the puzzle.

01:14:21   And when I order mine, you can rush self assured, even if it's a $50 thing, $100 thing, I'll

01:14:29   add it because it will definitely add a comfort for the device.

01:14:34   Top strap is so, I can't, yeah, if this is true that it's an additional purchase, I guess

01:14:41   it will come down to Apple's confidence that people can use it comfortably without because

01:14:46   if they keep using it and everybody keeps saying, I really need the top strap, then

01:14:51   I think you got to put the top strap.

01:14:52   Who knows?

01:14:53   Maybe the situation was if you don't have the right light shield fitting, the top strap

01:14:58   is more helpful.

01:14:59   And so maybe we have yet to have that full experience, you know, so like maybe, but I'm

01:15:04   not convinced.

01:15:05   The lack of a complete set of light shields for this thing suggests that the accessory,

01:15:13   accessories for this product are still in play.

01:15:15   If that makes sense, that I think it's all to play for, right?

01:15:20   They may end up saying, oh, geez, we really do need this top strap, or they may get the

01:15:25   light shields where they want them and say it really isn't essential, but wherever they

01:15:29   were for our demos, it certainly was essential for our demos.

01:15:33   But our demos had a limited supply of sizes of those light shields.

01:15:39   So maybe those are connected.

01:15:40   And I mentioned this, but I was told, and I think you were too, that the conversation

01:15:45   around straps and headbands, like the situation was not finalized at the time that we had

01:15:51   our thing.

01:15:53   They were not willing to say whether, like, what is the actual state of this and how will

01:15:57   it ship?

01:15:58   So in fact, I think there's a difference between Apple didn't say because they don't want it

01:16:03   to be part of the conversation and Apple said they didn't know.

01:16:06   And in this case, they said they didn't know, right?

01:16:10   They said specifically, it's all up in the air.

01:16:13   We're still working on it.

01:16:14   There will be more available at launch.

01:16:16   They were very clear, in fact, very clear for Apple actually, which is sometimes is

01:16:22   mysterious.

01:16:23   It was like, yeah, it's not done, right?

01:16:24   Like they had this freedom because they've pre-announced this product so far in advance

01:16:28   that they're like, yeah, that part's not done.

01:16:30   So we'll see.

01:16:31   I think I like Mark's report here.

01:16:34   I think that the answer is going to be, if it's essential, it will be included.

01:16:39   And they have time to continue to evaluate whether it turns out that the top strap is

01:16:44   essential versus not.

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01:18:38   For the summer of fun this week, Jason Snell, I want to play a game of higher or lower with

01:18:44   you.

01:18:45   So, Mark Gurman in his power on newsletter detailed his expectations for Apple's product

01:18:52   roadmap over the next 12-18 months.

01:18:55   I'm going to go through with you, we're going to talk about all of these items and we will

01:19:00   rank our excitement for each item higher or lower than the one before.

01:19:05   We'll have a baseline that we'll start with, we'll talk about the next one and we'll say

01:19:08   if we are more or less excited for this product than the one that came before it.

01:19:13   Okay.

01:19:15   Start with the iPhone 15.

01:19:16   So this is our baseline.

01:19:18   Which I will just ask, are you excited about the iPhone 15, the baseline model?

01:19:22   And I will remind you that from rumors we're expecting this one to have a dynamic island

01:19:27   and USB-C. That's kind of probably the two big things for this device.

01:19:31   Given that I preferred the lower end iPhone in terms of its design for the last few years,

01:19:35   I am actually somewhat excited about that and the idea that they're going to get the

01:19:39   dynamic island so that it will spread across the product line.

01:19:42   More people will get to experience the dynamic island.

01:19:44   I think that's fun.

01:19:45   So, sure.

01:19:46   And I will actually say for those two reasons, I am also like more excited about this device

01:19:51   than I would be normally considering I prefer the Pro phones because I think this will be

01:19:55   a good jump for the iPhone 15 and the dynamic island rolling out across more devices will

01:20:00   only increase the adoption for more people.

01:20:02   So I am also excited.

01:20:04   But are you more or less excited about the iPhone 15 Pro, which is expected to get a

01:20:10   titanium frame and a periscope lens?

01:20:14   I'm encouraged with the titanium and I'm intrigued by the improved camera.

01:20:21   But I'm going to say less.

01:20:24   Less excited?

01:20:26   Why?

01:20:27   Because I've just been disappointed with the Pro phones lately.

01:20:30   I think the colors are boring and they're heavy so maybe the titanium will help there.

01:20:35   And the cameras are nice but like I'm intrigued by the periscope lens like I said.

01:20:39   But I don't know.

01:20:40   It's because I'm a man of the people, Mike.

01:20:42   I think the people want the iPhone 15.

01:20:45   I'm obviously more excited about the iPhone 15 Pro.

01:20:48   Obviously.

01:20:49   Because the titanium frame just is intriguing to me.

01:20:52   I want to know what that's all about.

01:20:53   But I'm most excited for the periscope lens because the periscope lens is only expected

01:20:57   to be on the very best phone, which is the phone that I choose, which is the big, big,

01:21:01   big phone.

01:21:02   The big, big, big phone.

01:21:03   Makes me even less excited about it.

01:21:04   Yes, actually, yes, for you, less for me, more.

01:21:08   So now we'll move to a different product line and see how this changes things.

01:21:12   Apple Watch Series 9, which for everything I could find today, the only rumor that I

01:21:17   could find is it's going to get a new chip.

01:21:19   Like that's kind of it.

01:21:21   It doesn't really seem like anybody's expecting a lot out of this.

01:21:24   You're more or less excited about the Apple Watch Series 9 than the iPhone 15 Pro.

01:21:30   Let's just say less.

01:21:32   I don't think there's going to be much here.

01:21:36   I don't know at what point Apple is going to do the thing and redesign the Apple Watch.

01:21:41   Like, I don't know what...

01:21:42   Are they just waiting for 10?

01:21:45   I don't know.

01:21:46   I don't know.

01:21:48   Or is the Apple Watch Ultra kind of the...

01:21:51   They're more concerned with spreading out the product line than they are redesigning

01:21:54   the base model that everybody's familiar with.

01:21:57   And maybe that in the end, there will be another Apple Watch design in addition to the shape

01:22:02   of the classic Apple Watch.

01:22:05   I don't know.

01:22:06   I mean, certainly, I know our listeners might be different, but there's no reason to buy

01:22:11   an Apple Watch every year or even every other year.

01:22:15   The progress is slow, but it's steady.

01:22:17   They need to come out with a new one every year, I think for various reasons.

01:22:21   But they're picking up new buyers and people who've got...

01:22:25   Like Lauren just got a new Apple Watch because she reached the end of her rope with her Series

01:22:31   4.

01:22:32   Okay.

01:22:33   So there you go.

01:22:34   So from Series 4 to late stage of Series 8, that feels like an Apple Watch buying cycle

01:22:40   to me.

01:22:41   So I have a Series 7, I think.

01:22:45   I look at this and I think, "Whatever, I'm fine with mine, but nice.

01:22:49   Great.

01:22:50   It's out there for people who are ready to update from something or from nothing."

01:22:55   My excitement is lower.

01:22:56   I think the Apple Watch, the baseline Apple Watch, it's becoming...

01:23:02   I don't think this should be on an annual cycle, this product, the regular Apple Watch.

01:23:06   I think it's becoming harder and harder for Apple to tell a story every time, but yeah,

01:23:10   they tell a story every time.

01:23:12   I feel like would it not just be easier for them to release one every 18...

01:23:16   Like on the iPad cycle or something?

01:23:18   My counter argument is that it's an Apple...

01:23:22   It's an iPhone accessory, so they like it to come out with the iPhones and they're not

01:23:27   really breaking their backs on these updates.

01:23:30   They're incremental.

01:23:31   They just like having the increment.

01:23:34   In other words, it's worth it for them to increment from 8 to 9.

01:23:38   You're right.

01:23:39   When we're trying to cover it and we're looking at their story that they're telling, it's

01:23:42   so limited because the pace is so slow most of the time, but obviously it works for them

01:23:47   in the market to just iterate.

01:23:49   Remember, they've been iterating using the same package for a few years now.

01:23:53   Maybe it'd be better to just now have an Apple Watch, right?

01:23:58   Because now they have multiple, so maybe just an Apple Watch gets an update every year,

01:24:03   but maybe that's going to take a lot of time, to which I will get to the Apple Watch Ultra.

01:24:08   Mark Gurman is saying that there will be a second version this year.

01:24:11   I was wondering if this will be called Series 2 or if they just won't name it or what.

01:24:15   I don't know about that.

01:24:17   There aren't any particular rumors about the Apple Watch Ultra, about an update for it.

01:24:22   Now, it was rumored that the next Apple Watch Ultra would maybe get a larger micro LED display,

01:24:29   but this was expected to be 2024.

01:24:32   Maybe that is still for 2024 and there will be a 2023 version with the new chip in it

01:24:38   or something.

01:24:40   I will say my excitement for this is higher, higher than any...

01:24:44   I'm breaking tradition higher than any of the other things on this list because I really

01:24:47   want a new Apple Watch and I'm waiting for the Ultra because I'm not going to buy it

01:24:53   now, am I?

01:24:54   Right?

01:24:55   So we're three months away and I'm done with my Apple Watch, my Series 7.

01:25:03   The battery is just not what I want it to be.

01:25:07   Although I've heard from a lot of people and Gruber posted about this that I think there's

01:25:11   something in the latest OS update that is killing the battery on these things because

01:25:15   a lot of people are all of a sudden...

01:25:17   This is why Lauren got a new watch.

01:25:18   Mine isn't all of a sudden, but I understand that is happening for people.

01:25:22   I'm getting battery warnings way earlier than I used to on my Series 7 as well.

01:25:28   So I'm wondering if there's something else going on here and it's not just the normal

01:25:32   aging but there's been a change either in consuming the battery by the OS or in the

01:25:38   flag of when it tells you your battery is low.

01:25:41   I'm not sure which one.

01:25:43   I am much higher for the Apple Watch Ultra.

01:25:47   I wasn't entirely convinced there would be an annual cycle for the Apple Watch Ultra.

01:25:51   So obviously, whatever they are looking at, they're like, "Yeah, totally.

01:25:55   We're going to keep..."

01:25:56   I mean, whatever makes them iterate the Apple Watch, they looked at the Ultra and said,

01:25:59   "We are absolutely doing that."

01:26:00   I've been surprised at how many people I know have really been into the Apple Watch Ultra.

01:26:06   I'm going to make a little admission here.

01:26:09   I'd never really touched one or seen one in the wild until WWDC.

01:26:15   I'd seen them in the Apple area at the announcement event, but I hadn't looked at one in the Apple

01:26:24   Store and I don't have one.

01:26:27   So it's really nice.

01:26:30   Like it's really nice.

01:26:31   Enough to give me pause about whether I might want one.

01:26:34   That's how nice it is.

01:26:35   It's got orange on it.

01:26:36   You like orange.

01:26:37   I do like orange.

01:26:39   It's true.

01:26:40   So I'm intrigued.

01:26:41   Yeah, it's going to be my upgrade.

01:26:42   If they do it, that's the easiest upgrade of everything for me this year.

01:26:46   Because it's something that rather than just doing, like I'll always just do, like I want

01:26:51   these things, but I'll always get the new iPhone because it's part of my job to know

01:26:55   what's going on with the iPhone.

01:26:57   I felt like many years ago that the Apple Watch did not really count in that.

01:27:02   But I just want a new Apple Watch and I want the Apple Watch Ultra because I think it's

01:27:06   cool, but I didn't pull the trigger.

01:27:08   You do want an Apple Watch.

01:27:11   Amazing.

01:27:12   I still would prefer to not have an Apple Watch, to have a band that I could wear on

01:27:17   my wrist that went into fitness and then I could wear a regular watch.

01:27:21   But if I'm going to have to have one because I want one because of the fitness stuff, then

01:27:26   I want the one that I like the look of the most and that's the Apple Watch Ultra.

01:27:31   We move now to the 13 inch MacBook Pro with an M3 chip in it, which is apparently coming.

01:27:37   They're not.

01:27:38   Okay.

01:27:39   I'm going to continue to define excitement for me now.

01:27:45   If Mark Gurman were to say that the 13 inch MacBook Pro is getting redesigned to not be

01:27:52   the touch bar and all of that, but it's going to be more like the 14 and 16 inch models,

01:27:57   I would have more excitement.

01:28:00   He hasn't reported that.

01:28:04   Probably the executives at the talk show at WWDC said something like, "You want the touch

01:28:10   bar?

01:28:11   You got it."

01:28:12   Whatever.

01:28:13   I think Josh said that.

01:28:14   It's like, "Yeah, we all know why this product exists and it's not because anybody wants

01:28:20   it.

01:28:21   It's because corporate buyers probably are just like, 'They want a MacBook Pro.

01:28:24   Give me the cheapest model.

01:28:25   Here's what it is.'"

01:28:26   But Mike, even if there were rumors that the touch bar was going away and they were going

01:28:29   to redesign it a little bit, it still wouldn't be more than the Apple Watch Ultra.

01:28:34   So less.

01:28:35   This is the easiest one to say, lower in excitement levels.

01:28:39   Lower 14 and 16 inch MacBook Pro with M3 Pro and M3 Max.

01:28:45   Hmm.

01:28:46   Oh, but I'm comparing it to the MacBook Pro 13 inch.

01:28:50   Well, higher then.

01:28:51   Okay, higher.

01:28:52   My enthusiasm for those is not super high because I think that it's just going to be...

01:28:55   I'm sure the M3 is going to be a step ahead of the M2.

01:28:59   Great.

01:29:01   Those are good machines, but not super enthusiastic, but yeah, more than the MacBook Pro 13.

01:29:09   And I always find it an interesting story of how the performance is year over year.

01:29:14   I still think that that's fun because how do they do it?

01:29:17   How do they define it?

01:29:18   Is there some kind of thing that could make a jump or not?

01:29:21   And so this will be the good compare we'll get for what these chips are like.

01:29:28   So I'm actually pretty excited about this.

01:29:30   Okay.

01:29:31   Quote, "New MacBook Air models," is what Mark said.

01:29:35   I'm presuming this is M3.

01:29:39   In the 14, sorry, in the 13 and the 15.

01:29:42   Right?

01:29:43   And the 15.

01:29:44   So that's probably a year away from now.

01:29:48   Yeah, maybe.

01:29:52   I would say early next year.

01:29:54   Yeah.

01:29:55   Yeah.

01:29:56   Like spring.

01:29:57   It's a year out almost from the shipping of the M2 Air.

01:30:04   So if they wait too long, I don't know if the M2 Air needs to sit there for another

01:30:11   year.

01:30:12   And the 15-inch model is just going to have a, the M2 is going to have a short life and

01:30:15   it's going to be replaced by an M3 model.

01:30:16   And that's just how it is.

01:30:17   So my guess is yeah, early next year, but more higher.

01:30:22   Higher because I'm higher on the MacBook Air.

01:30:24   I'm excited about it.

01:30:26   I love that M2 design.

01:30:29   Looking forward to a new M3 version of it.

01:30:32   Yeah, so higher.

01:30:34   What about, I also say, no, I'm less excited about the new MacBook Air models than I am

01:30:41   about the MacBook Pros.

01:30:43   Okay.

01:30:44   But what about the 24-inch iMac of M3?

01:30:54   Then the MacBook Air?

01:30:55   I don't know.

01:30:57   I'm less excited because all it's going to be is the new chip and the new chip, you know,

01:31:03   it's M3 should be a bigger jump than M1 to M2, new process, three nanometer process,

01:31:08   all that like, like great.

01:31:10   But they already redesigned the iMac and it's just going to be that.

01:31:14   I'm a little more excited about the possibility that the iMac might have a pro option, right?

01:31:20   An M3 pro option.

01:31:21   I think that would be a good choice if they did that.

01:31:25   Well, M3 pro, it's not like that much more.

01:31:27   I would like that, but I don't think that.

01:31:30   And Mark Herman also said two model, you know, he says two models.

01:31:33   We're not there yet.

01:31:34   No, no, he says two models of 24-inch iMac.

01:31:38   Oh, he did when I missed that.

01:31:40   He did.

01:31:41   Okay.

01:31:42   He said two models of 24-inch iMac.

01:31:43   Okay.

01:31:44   Well then ignore what I said.

01:31:45   We'll assume it says M3 pro.

01:31:46   I didn't include that in my notes.

01:31:48   It could be the classic lousy base model and then a much better model, but it could be

01:31:52   that there's a base model and then there's a pro chip option.

01:31:56   I don't know.

01:31:57   I think if it's in the Mac mini, it might be in the iMac.

01:31:59   So I'll throw that in there.

01:32:00   Still lower than the MacBook Air because they already changed the iMac.

01:32:03   What I'll say though is for me, this was a toss up between the MacBook Air and the 24-inch

01:32:07   iMac because the computers that I love both of and them both moving to M3, I'm kind of

01:32:12   like equally excited.

01:32:14   But now I've missed this second model thing.

01:32:18   Now I'm more excited about this because I just think it would be cool if they put a

01:32:23   more powerful chip in the 24-inch iMac just for fun.

01:32:26   But I don't think they're going to do it, but it would be fun if they did.

01:32:30   What I thought you were referencing is the next thing, which is Mark said that Apple

01:32:34   is "conducting early work on a 30-inch iMac."

01:32:39   30 plus.

01:32:41   Yeah.

01:32:42   He said, I think he said 30 inches or a larger iMac.

01:32:47   More excited.

01:32:48   Yeah, of course.

01:32:49   I don't think this is coming out in the timeframe of his article and there's a few things here.

01:32:57   No, conducting early work.

01:32:59   Yes.

01:33:00   But a minimum 30 inches is exciting and a strange start.

01:33:05   How big?

01:33:06   Like 34?

01:33:07   That's a big computer.

01:33:08   You know what I mean?

01:33:09   How far are we going to go here?

01:33:10   It's a big old computer.

01:33:11   It's basically a really nice big display with a Mac in it essentially, which they can do

01:33:18   because the Mac hardware is so tiny.

01:33:22   They can absolutely do that.

01:33:23   That would be an interesting, that would be basically an iMac Pro, I assume.

01:33:27   It would probably be, yeah, I don't know.

01:33:31   That's a cool idea.

01:33:32   It's interesting because then they would give people the choice of you can get a mini or

01:33:35   a studio and an external display or you can just buy this iMac and you'll be in great

01:33:40   shape.

01:33:41   So we're both more excited than 24.

01:33:44   What about OLED, iPad Pro?

01:33:51   I'm going to go less.

01:33:53   I just feel like I've been burned too many times on the iPad Pro.

01:33:57   Like I just, you know, I like wait until I see it.

01:34:01   I need more than OLED.

01:34:02   I would like to see, is there a third, is there a next gen pencil that's going to be

01:34:06   part of this?

01:34:07   Is it going to have the moved FaceTime camera and stuff so it's on the side where it's more

01:34:14   horizontally oriented?

01:34:16   Is there, are there other changes to the accessory story?

01:34:19   Like I need more to be excited about than it's going to be an OLED screen.

01:34:22   The OLED screen, that would be nice.

01:34:24   It would be nice.

01:34:26   But it's going to be really expensive too.

01:34:28   And so, you know, like we spoke, that was a rumor for a long time ago, but there's just,

01:34:32   I cannot imagine a world in which an OLED iPad Pro isn't even more expensive than the

01:34:37   current iPad Pros.

01:34:38   And then like, I need to see more here.

01:34:42   So I'm less excited for this just because Apple need to blow me away with this iPad

01:34:48   Pro because I feel like we haven't had that in too long now.

01:34:53   What about new iPad Air?

01:34:57   Less I love the iPad Air.

01:34:59   I think it's a fantastic iPad, but I don't think there's going to be much of a story

01:35:04   here.

01:35:05   So I would also be less excited.

01:35:07   I think it'll have an M2 and otherwise, because they just, they just designed, did they just

01:35:12   redesign it or is it?

01:35:13   It was last year, I think.

01:35:14   Yeah, but did they redesign it?

01:35:15   I think it's the low end model is the only one.

01:35:17   So it would be more exciting like if they did some of those, some of those changes that

01:35:22   the low end model got.

01:35:24   But I'm not going to be as enthusiastic about an iPad Air as an iPad Pro.

01:35:28   It's not going to happen.

01:35:29   Yeah.

01:35:30   I love that.

01:35:31   I genuinely think the iPad Air is a fantastic iPad.

01:35:33   It's currently the best iPad you can buy for bang for buck in my opinion.

01:35:36   It's the one that most people should buy, but I don't expect there to be much there

01:35:42   that's new for a while.

01:35:45   Third gen AirPods Pro early development.

01:35:50   More because I use AirPods Pro and I like them a lot.

01:35:54   Not that I, you know, this is, this is multiple years away.

01:35:58   I expect.

01:35:59   Yeah, I think so.

01:36:00   And I don't really know.

01:36:01   I don't have any sense right now what I would want from this.

01:36:04   Um, but yes, I would say more too because it's, you know, I use the AirPods Pro are

01:36:10   up there for me with the Apple devices I use the most in my day.

01:36:13   You know, like I've had them in for hours and hours a day, every day.

01:36:18   So smart display early development.

01:36:25   Gene Munster is very excited about this.

01:36:28   I don't know.

01:36:29   I'm not excited about it because I'm not sure Apple should be making a display.

01:36:32   I'm intrigued by the idea.

01:36:33   The idea here is basically what if Apple made a TV, a really nice TV with Apple TV guts

01:36:40   inside of it.

01:36:41   Well, I thought I took away that this was a HomePod with a HomePod.

01:36:46   That's what I took that.

01:36:47   Oh really?

01:36:48   Oh, I didn't read that at all.

01:36:49   Smart display.

01:36:50   You think it's a HomePod?

01:36:51   Well, if that's right, I'll go with you because it was, it was couched with home stuff.

01:36:53   Although I thought it was like a TV smart display.

01:36:55   Sure.

01:36:56   Yes.

01:36:57   More, more excited then because I am very excited about this.

01:36:58   I mean, Jason, it could be a television.

01:36:59   I don't know, but I read it as a...

01:37:00   Well then less excited then.

01:37:01   Can I make bullet points here?

01:37:04   Sure.

01:37:05   If it's a TV, less excited.

01:37:06   If it's a HomePod with a screen, more excited and I will mirror you on those.

01:37:12   And then also an Apple TV with quote, "improved specifications in early development."

01:37:18   Less excited.

01:37:19   Me too.

01:37:20   It's just going to be an Apple TV.

01:37:22   If it's what I want it to be, more excited, which is like, it's an Apple TV that is a

01:37:27   soundbar and has integrated stuff in it.

01:37:29   Sure.

01:37:30   Sure.

01:37:31   But that's not improved specifications.

01:37:32   I don't think that's what it is.

01:37:34   Isn't that?

01:37:35   Yeah.

01:37:36   It's not that exciting to have improved specifications.

01:37:38   There we go.

01:37:39   That is a higher or lower on excitement of a list of products.

01:37:42   Wow.

01:37:43   That was a roller coaster by design.

01:37:44   It actually really was.

01:37:45   Do you know what?

01:37:46   I'm going to say it's a roller coaster I would not like to ride because that feels like it

01:37:49   would be very upsetting.

01:37:51   Yes.

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01:41:03   Let's finish out with some Ask Upgrade questions for today's episode.

01:41:08   John asks, "You see the term evangelist spoken about in the context of Apple.

01:41:14   What does this mean?"

01:41:15   Evangelist, I don't know if it originated with the guy Kawasaki, but he was the famous

01:41:22   Apple evangelist at one point.

01:41:24   The idea here is to get people in a community enthusiastic about what Apple is doing.

01:41:31   So you hear it a lot about developers and developer evangelists.

01:41:37   I feel like developer evangelism, somebody who's in the developer space would know better

01:41:42   than me because it's not my direct area.

01:41:44   I talk to PR marketing people.

01:41:46   But evangelism is historically you want to be in part a representative of what you're

01:41:54   hearing from developers on the outside inside Apple.

01:41:57   But I think primarily when you see that term, I think it gets the message across.

01:42:03   It's trying to get Apple's, let's say developers, although it could also be in like Fortune

01:42:08   500 businesses, you're going to have evangelists in a lot of different areas who are trying

01:42:12   to get people enthusiastic about what Apple is doing.

01:42:16   So it's like, you got to adopt our APIs or here's this new thing we're doing for big

01:42:21   businesses and there's this new system and we've got this, or we've got this new small

01:42:24   business essentials tool and we want you to be excited about it.

01:42:28   So it's like kind of pitching to a particular audience.

01:42:31   It's not the media, right?

01:42:33   It's like a particular audience and trying to be making this connection between the people

01:42:39   on the inside and the people on the outside.

01:42:41   They're like a conduit for that, or they're kind of like getting the people on the outside

01:42:46   excited.

01:42:47   Sarva in the chat points out that Rene Ritchie is now a YouTube evangelist, right?

01:42:51   They don't call it that.

01:42:52   See, I think evangelist is a term that Apple wouldn't use if they were creating this today.

01:42:58   I think it is a holdover from a previous time.

01:43:00   No, it's from the 80s.

01:43:01   Yes.

01:43:02   It's from the 80s.

01:43:03   It's from Guy Kawasaki and yeah, it is a weird term, but that's the idea.

01:43:05   Rene is called creator liaison.

01:43:07   That is his role.

01:43:08   Yeah, but that's what it is.

01:43:09   Yes.

01:43:10   That is a traditional evangelism title, I would say, where you're trying to communicate

01:43:14   with the outside about what you're doing on the inside, but also maybe even less noticeable

01:43:21   on the outside is taking what you're hearing on the outside and telling it to the inside.

01:43:27   Right?

01:43:28   Because a lot of people who work on the inside at Apple or YouTube or anywhere else are not

01:43:33   out there with the customers all the time, but you need to have some people who are on

01:43:36   the surface who are able to interface with the people on the outside and then relay back

01:43:41   what the issues are.

01:43:42   People who are trusted by both sides too, right?

01:43:46   They can give the information, but also collect information.

01:43:51   And I think it is a very important role.

01:43:54   It felt like for a while it was maybe a role that Apple seemed to move away from a little

01:43:58   bit, but it came back.

01:44:00   And I think now it feels like we also talk about developer relations maybe more than

01:44:06   we used to.

01:44:07   Yes, exactly.

01:44:08   And that those terms I think are now interchangeable.

01:44:11   Developer relations was always there, right?

01:44:13   WWDR, Worldwide Developer Relations, like it was always there.

01:44:17   But yeah, I think that the term comes in and out of favor and that's fine.

01:44:20   But the idea generally is who is talking to the outside world and yes, potentially kind

01:44:26   of whipping up enthusiasm for whatever Apple's new thing is.

01:44:30   So in this context, it might be for Vision OS, but it could also just be for some new

01:44:35   API or something, or getting people to get over to Apple Silicon and leave Intel behind

01:44:41   or whatever it needs to be to sort of like be out there and saying, "Hey, person in this

01:44:46   community, Apple wants you to know about the stuff we're doing and wants to get you on

01:44:50   board with this."

01:44:51   And a little more active.

01:44:52   Like I said, in some contexts, it's like a sales role, but it's not quite the same because

01:44:58   they're not necessarily trying to...

01:45:00   It's almost like marketing to a different audience.

01:45:05   Because they're not necessarily trying to sell developers literally products, but they

01:45:09   are trying to sell a developer evangelist developers on what Apple is doing so that

01:45:14   the developers will buy in with their time and their resources, not literally writing

01:45:19   an Apple a check, but saying, "Yes, I will implement your open doc," whatever, which

01:45:24   is what happened in the '90s.

01:45:26   It wasn't that good.

01:45:27   But anyway, it's like that.

01:45:29   Stewart asks, "Do you think the sales of AR or VR products will be included in wearables

01:45:36   broken out into their own category or some new category that Apple reports in their earnings?"

01:45:42   Until Vision Pro and Friends reach the point where they're selling so much that legally

01:45:51   Apple has to break them out into another category, there is some threshold for that.

01:45:55   I forget what it is.

01:45:57   Until that day, they will be in wearables, home, and accessories.

01:46:00   I could imagine it also being if it wasn't legal, but I'm sure...

01:46:04   No, I have no doubt that it is.

01:46:05   I didn't know that, but until you just mentioned it, I could also imagine a scenario until

01:46:09   Apple was proud enough of the results that they would put them into their own.

01:46:14   The beauty of it, and we just look at the Apple Watch for a comp here.

01:46:19   Apple Watch is part of wearables, home, and accessories.

01:46:21   Apple, and so are AirPods.

01:46:25   Apple can point at the category and say, "Look at GRU," and then mention right after that,

01:46:32   "Apple Watch is doing great," and implies that what you see in that category is Apple

01:46:38   Watch.

01:46:39   It doesn't necessarily mean it is.

01:46:40   It might be in HomePods or Apple TVs or AirPods, but they want you to think about it as an

01:46:46   Apple Watch proxy, or any of those other products too.

01:46:49   They could do that.

01:46:50   Also, they've gotten very good at pointing out when there's a milestone that they think

01:46:56   is they're proud of and that they want to share for a particular product, they will

01:47:00   call it out.

01:47:01   You will see in a few years, you'll see Vision Pro for the holiday season of '24, we set

01:47:11   an all-time record in Vision Pro revenue, or we sold the most Vision Pros we've sold

01:47:16   in any quarter.

01:47:18   They can say that without giving you any Vision Pro-specific detail, and it's just rolled

01:47:23   into the wearables, home, and accessories number.

01:47:26   That's what they're going to do with this until they're legally required to do otherwise.

01:47:32   There is a threshold at which, and I don't know the details, but I don't think they can

01:47:36   get away with rolling iPhone, iPad, and Mac together into one line.

01:47:41   Those are distinct products and they all generate a lot of revenue and they want to do it.

01:47:45   But Vision Pro, I just don't see it.

01:47:47   I think it'll be in wearables, home, and accessories, and I think they'll be happy to have it there.

01:47:50   Matt asks, "Considering that the M3 is probably going to be rolled out maybe around the same

01:47:56   time as the Vision Pro, are there any odds that Apple will use the M3 in the headset

01:48:01   instead, more performance and maybe better battery life?"

01:48:04   No, my understanding is that the Vision Pro is made and that they're working on the next

01:48:08   one.

01:48:09   Maybe that'll have an M3 or an M4 in it, but this one's going to have an M2.

01:48:13   I'd say that it's a zero chance.

01:48:15   I don't think it's as simple as just hot-swapping these things in.

01:48:18   I don't think it works like that.

01:48:20   No, I think the challenge with it being delayed and with it not even shipping until next year

01:48:25   is just that this is what it is, is based on this.

01:48:27   I think it's very low odds that they would pull it apart and then put it back together.

01:48:34   I wouldn't say zero.

01:48:36   It's possible, except we haven't heard anything about this, it's possible that in the background

01:48:41   they're doing a quick swap to put in another chip.

01:48:43   But given that that chip is not even going to be out until about the same time, I'm doubtful

01:48:48   that they would at the last minute say, "Well, no, the M2 is really for developer kits and

01:48:56   the shipping one will be an M3."

01:48:57   It's a non-zero, but I think very unlikely.

01:49:01   And Will asks, "With Apple producing more content for the Vision Pro, do you think that

01:49:05   future Apple keynotes will be made for viewing inside of the headset?

01:49:09   For those of us that have never been to WWDC, feeling like we're in the Steve Prost Theater

01:49:12   would be cool?"

01:49:14   You know, I hadn't really thought about this.

01:49:16   I would not put it past them at all.

01:49:19   That they would do immersive versions of their events.

01:49:23   The problem is that the events are pre-taped now.

01:49:28   So are they going to do like an immersive version of the keynote video as well as a

01:49:33   regular version?

01:49:34   I don't know.

01:49:35   Are they going to do a 3D conversion of it?

01:49:36   I don't know.

01:49:37   Maybe they will.

01:49:38   I hope so.

01:49:39   But probably not.

01:49:40   Or like experience something about the keynote in immersive video.

01:49:45   I think it's more likely that there will be special product videos and stuff that will

01:49:50   be made in an immersive or 3D format.

01:49:54   But that it won't necessarily be a whole thing.

01:49:56   However, I wouldn't put it past them to do something like having a virtual theater that

01:50:01   you can go to in the Vision Pro and watch the thing.

01:50:06   They actually make a recreation of the Steve Jobs.

01:50:10   Of the Steve Jobs Theater.

01:50:11   Just for keynotes.

01:50:12   And you can share play it with friends and you can all watch it together and talk about

01:50:17   it or whatever.

01:50:18   I think something like that maybe.

01:50:20   I doubt they're going to do the whole thing.

01:50:23   But yeah, that's a funny clever idea.

01:50:26   But who knows, right?

01:50:27   To start with, yeah, probably a little bit.

01:50:29   But who knows what the future will hold?

01:50:31   Maybe they'll just put them on people's faces and they'll record them.

01:50:34   If they do some product videos that are in 3D or are immersive, that would be a thing

01:50:39   you could do. If you watch it in the Vision Pro, you'd watch the regular 2D video with

01:50:43   everyone else.

01:50:44   But when it went to the 3D one, maybe you drop into immersive mode or you see it as

01:50:48   a 3D image or something like that.

01:50:50   I could see them doing something like that.

01:50:51   But again, more for those little sizzle videos they do that are three minutes long.

01:50:57   Not the whole thing.

01:50:58   I don't think they're going to do it.

01:51:00   I would have a different answer if this was a live event, but it's not a live event anymore.

01:51:04   So I think it's unlikely.

01:51:05   Look, if it's WWDC and there are a bunch of developers in the crowd and they're watching

01:51:10   the video, would they try to capture that as immersive video so you're literally sitting

01:51:14   in the crowd watching a video?

01:51:16   Maybe, but probably not.

01:51:19   If you would like to send us in your feedback, follow-up, or your Ask Upgrade questions,

01:51:24   please go to UpgradeFeedback.com and you can do so.

01:51:28   And we may include them in a future episode.

01:51:31   Until next time, you can check out Jason's work over at SixColors.com.

01:51:35   You can hear his podcast at TheIncomparable.com and here on RelayFM, which is where you will

01:51:39   hear me as well.

01:51:41   We're going to have a special guest on Connected this week, who we've mentioned a bunch of

01:51:47   times on this episode, to talk about their experiences with the Vision Pro SDK.

01:51:52   So you can look out for that on Connected.

01:51:55   You can also check out my work at CortexBrand.com.

01:51:58   You can find me and Jason on Mastodon.

01:52:01   Jason is @Jason now on Zeppelin.Flight.

01:52:03   So remember, if you are from New Zealand and would like to tell Jason how you pronounce

01:52:09   Beta, you can tell him there.

01:52:11   You can find me as @imike on Mike.Social.

01:52:15   And you can also find this show as @upgrade on RelayFM.Social, where you can see video

01:52:20   clips that we produce of this show, which you will also find on TikTok and Instagram,

01:52:25   where we are @upgraderelay.

01:52:27   Please check them out.

01:52:28   We are getting universally good feedback about these clips.

01:52:31   If you've not yet followed one of the accounts, you should do, and you'll get to see a little

01:52:37   bit more context, a little bit more fun, what me and Jason are up to when we're recording

01:52:41   the show.

01:52:42   Thank you to our members who continue to support us with Upgrade Plus.

01:52:44   Go to GetUpgradePlus.com to find out more.

01:52:47   Thank you to our sponsors of this week's episode.

01:52:49   That is Nom Nom, Ladder, Electric, and Notion.

01:52:53   And thank you for listening.

01:52:55   Until next time, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:52:57   Goodbye, Mike Hurley.

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