456: The Dice Are Coming at You


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:07   Hello and welcome to Connected, episode 456.

00:00:11   Alright, stop.

00:00:11   I'm your host, J-

00:00:12   Hey, James.

00:00:14   Too much.

00:00:14   But-

00:00:15   You come back later on.

00:00:16   Oh-

00:00:17   Go back, go back to the cupboard.

00:00:18   We'll call you when we need you.

00:00:20   Federico, it's over to you.

00:00:21   Thank you, Mike, for saving me and this podcast from whatever that was.

00:00:27   Mhm.

00:00:27   This is Connected, episode 456. Today's show is brought to you by CleanMyMikeX, Sofa, and Notion.

00:00:33   I'm one of your co-hosts, Federico Vitecchia, and it's my pleasure to introduce another real co-host to this program, Stephen Hackett.

00:00:41   Hello, Stephen.

00:00:42   Hey, Federico. How are you?

00:00:44   I'm doing fantastic as another real co-host of this podcast.

00:00:49   And let me introduce the third real co-host of this podcast, Mr. Mike Hurley.

00:00:53   The final and only.

00:00:55   Mhm.

00:00:55   That was weird. I'd say we're just moving to follow up.

00:00:58   I have some very important Mike AI follow up.

00:01:01   Oh boy.

00:01:02   Okay.

00:01:02   So, you remember on the last episode, I was talking about the Beat Studio Pro, which was exclusive information provided to this podcast?

00:01:11   Yeah.

00:01:11   I referenced about there potentially being no transparency mode, but I wasn't sure.

00:01:17   The AI got back in touch with me, my anonymous informant, to tell me that it will have a transparency mode, not a transparent color option.

00:01:27   That was the misunderstanding.

00:01:29   So when they said no transparency, or no transparent, what they meant was no see-through color, which is what we wanted.

00:01:37   But it will have transparency mode.

00:01:39   And I have one more piece of information that without active noise cancellation, the Beat Studio Pro will have 40 hours of battery life.

00:01:47   Wow.

00:01:48   Also, what I secretly wished would happen, but didn't mention, did happen.

00:01:55   Federico sent this to me today, written up by a friend of the show, Joe Rossignol, at MacRumors.

00:02:01   Apple is planning to release new Beat Studio Pro wireless over-ear headphones on July 19th, according to details shared by Mike Hurley on the Apple-related podcast Connected.

00:02:11   We did it, boys!

00:02:13   We're all going back around again.

00:02:15   So, a couple of good news here.

00:02:17   First, I believe this pretty much says that you are the new Mark Gurman.

00:02:22   Yes, confirmed.

00:02:24   Watch out, Bloomberg. Watch out, Bloomberg.

00:02:26   And the second piece of good news...

00:02:28   Can I just say real quick, when we were in San Francisco, we were walking past the building, and on by the pier, and it seemed to be the Bloomberg building, which I didn't know they were there.

00:02:38   We also had lunch up at a place called Gere-Delly Square, and there was like a bunch of people behind us, and Nadina was convinced that she heard them talking about Mark Gurman.

00:02:47   So maybe they worked at Bloomberg and they were talking about him.

00:02:49   And Nadina said, "You should go in there."

00:02:52   I'd be like, "I go in and the DeMar...

00:02:54   Where is Mark Gurman? I require rumors."

00:02:56   But no, I didn't do that.

00:02:57   But I did walk past the Bloomberg office.

00:02:59   But yeah, watch out, Mark.

00:03:00   Are you as excited that you were on a blog?

00:03:02   Because we could have done that for you.

00:03:04   You didn't, did you? Neither of you.

00:03:05   Well, but no...

00:03:06   You didn't do it, did you?

00:03:07   Well, also, we wouldn't call you Hurley, you know?

00:03:11   We would just write Mike.

00:03:12   Well, because you don't fully respect me.

00:03:13   No, because we're friends.

00:03:14   We just say Mike.

00:03:15   I would just say Mike said.

00:03:17   Yeah.

00:03:17   Hurley said he obtained the details from an anonymous source.

00:03:21   Ah, I love it.

00:03:22   Who previously shared accurate details about the Beats Studio, Bloods Plus.

00:03:27   It's true. This is all true.

00:03:28   You skipped over a little parenthetical that makes this less impressive about you.

00:03:32   It was found via Reddit, not because Joe listened to the show.

00:03:36   Yeah.

00:03:36   Yeah, but Joe does listen to the show, so I'm not really sure why that happened.

00:03:40   Maybe Joe was behind on the podcast queue.

00:03:44   But you guys are ignoring another important detail from this story,

00:03:49   which is that despite the things we say on this show,

00:03:53   we're still an Apple-related podcast.

00:03:57   So...

00:03:58   I mean, it's still related, you know?

00:04:00   We got that going for us.

00:04:01   We're still relevant, I suppose.

00:04:04   I hope so.

00:04:04   So now we know we have the ear of the Beats subreddit, which is good for us.

00:04:09   What's next for this sort of new career of yours as a rumor maker, as a leaker?

00:04:17   Are you a leaker?

00:04:18   Steven, I...

00:04:19   No, I'm not a leaker.

00:04:21   You're not a leaker?

00:04:22   Because I'm not giving the information.

00:04:24   This person is a leaker, I suppose.

00:04:26   You have to shave your eyebrows, I think, next is what happens traditionally.

00:04:31   Oh, man, I had to really go through the old Rolodex in my brain

00:04:35   to try and work out what that was about.

00:04:37   Remember that?

00:04:38   Unfortunately, we do, yes.

00:04:41   It took me a minute.

00:04:42   Well, I think Steven's already spilled the beans.

00:04:44   Watch out, Bloomberg.

00:04:45   That's what's next for me.

00:04:47   Watch out, Bloomberg.

00:04:47   Well, you know where to find them in San Francisco, apparently.

00:04:50   I do.

00:04:50   I'm going to, next time I'm there...

00:04:52   You know where they get lunch.

00:04:54   I'm going to be like, watch out.

00:04:56   You could leak where they're having lunch.

00:04:58   It was at the San Francisco brew pub thing.

00:05:01   Huge of truth.

00:05:02   Huge.

00:05:04   Unprecedented.

00:05:05   You could just show up, you know, wearing sunglasses and a hat and be like,

00:05:09   I have information.

00:05:11   I have information.

00:05:12   Like I could have a newspaper with eye holes cut in the middle of it.

00:05:15   You're deep throated by the Beats head fans.

00:05:19   Currently.

00:05:21   We are halfway through my Kickstarter for the 2024 Apple History calendar.

00:05:26   As we record this, 624 backers.

00:05:29   Thank you all.

00:05:30   You're each going to get something at the end of this.

00:05:32   And if you want to get something at the end of it, you've got two weeks left.

00:05:35   Well, if they don't get anything from the end of it,

00:05:38   they can copy and paste those Kickstarter terms into the comments.

00:05:40   That's true.

00:05:41   I mean, there is technically make a pledge without a reward.

00:05:44   Let me see how many people have done that.

00:05:45   Let me look real quick.

00:05:47   Dashboard two backers have said no reward.

00:05:51   OK, so I've raised eleven dollars that way.

00:05:54   So that's nice.

00:05:55   I've got to say nice people, but there are a couple of suckers.

00:05:57   I mean, five bucks.

00:05:58   You could have gotten the digital wallpaper pack.

00:06:00   Ten dollars.

00:06:01   The wallpaper pack and the calendar.

00:06:03   Why would you?

00:06:05   So, OK, so on average, these like if you average out that eleven dollars,

00:06:09   both of those people could have gotten something like they really don't want something.

00:06:13   That's interesting.

00:06:14   Yeah.

00:06:15   It's like they are paying you to please not send them something.

00:06:18   That's right.

00:06:19   That's right.

00:06:19   Please don't mail me anything.

00:06:21   Please don't.

00:06:22   Please don't send me anything.

00:06:23   So I'm giving you my money, but please stop it.

00:06:26   Like, please don't.

00:06:30   Hey, whatever floats your boat.

00:06:31   You know what I mean?

00:06:33   Thirty six bucks gets you the wall calendar and the digital goodies.

00:06:37   And then the vast majority of people, four hundred and ninety currently out of the six hundred twenty four.

00:06:44   Get it all for forty dollars.

00:06:46   A calendar, some stickers, a digital pack of wallpapers, a digital calendar.

00:06:51   So you can have all this stuff in your calendar with all your other events.

00:06:55   Every year, that's by far the biggest.

00:06:57   Seventy nine percent of backers right now.

00:06:59   Eighty five percent of the money.

00:07:01   So go check it out.

00:07:03   Just a couple of weeks left.

00:07:05   And I got some early versions of the stickers were finalizing that.

00:07:08   I'm going to share those and update on the project, hopefully by the end of the week.

00:07:12   So keep an eye out for that, too.

00:07:14   You only get the big money hack if people give on the top level, right?

00:07:19   That's what takes you from just money hack it to big money hack it.

00:07:21   Yeah, that's right.

00:07:22   And that's right.

00:07:24   I got to pay for these calendars, you know.

00:07:26   I spend a lot of money on postage every year.

00:07:28   I've had a couple people ask, hey, I want to buy multiple calendars.

00:07:32   Go ahead and back with one and then you will get an email a little bit later in the fall.

00:07:37   I use BackerKit to fulfill everything.

00:07:39   And you will get an email link and you can add additional items and then pay for those separately.

00:07:46   I will say if you use hide my email or like sign in with Apple where it gives you a wacky

00:07:53   Apple iCloud email address, you will not get my emails from BackerKit.

00:07:58   I don't know why this affected somebody who worked on this feature at Apple and it's still

00:08:02   broken.

00:08:02   So you hate privacy.

00:08:03   You hate privacy.

00:08:05   I have your physical address.

00:08:07   He hates privacy, loves money.

00:08:09   That's that's the Stephen Hackett pledge.

00:08:11   If you do if you do use hide my email or sign with Apple or whatever, I will send you an

00:08:18   individually crafted direct message via Kickstarter with your BackerKit link.

00:08:23   It's a Texas fender snippet.

00:08:25   It's not individually crafted.

00:08:27   I don't believe it.

00:08:29   That is wild to me, though, that that does that still doesn't work.

00:08:32   I know.

00:08:33   It is wild.

00:08:34   Makes me angry every year.

00:08:36   But I don't even understand why it doesn't work.

00:08:38   I think because when you do that, you're only supposed to get email to that from the domain

00:08:42   that it was set up on.

00:08:43   And I am using it technically through a different website.

00:08:45   So I kind of get it.

00:08:46   I thought the point part of the point of it was the way that Apple pitched it is then you

00:08:51   can see who sold your email.

00:08:53   I did to myself.

00:08:55   Yeah, maybe they're also doing something weird that is very.

00:08:58   Yeah.

00:08:58   So so keep keep that in mind.

00:09:00   But I will send you a direct message or maybe I send you a postcard in the mail and say,

00:09:05   hey, what do you want and you mail it back to me and then I mail you your calendar.

00:09:09   I could do it that way, too.

00:09:10   Can I get a pledge from you like that to people that do that?

00:09:14   Can you just send them a postcard that just says, hey, what do you want with no other

00:09:18   information?

00:09:19   What do you want?

00:09:21   That's very threatening.

00:09:22   Exactly.

00:09:23   Just hey, what do you want?

00:09:24   What do you want?

00:09:25   No URL, no return address or anything.

00:09:28   And that's just that's just their problem.

00:09:30   They should have heard this.

00:09:31   It's in those cut out magazine letters like a ransom note.

00:09:34   Oh, yeah.

00:09:35   That's kind of a reverse ransom note.

00:09:37   A ransom note would be I tell you what I want.

00:09:40   The old reverse ransom.

00:09:43   I'll give you anything you want.

00:09:45   What do you want?

00:09:46   Yeah.

00:09:47   Send me forty dollars and you get a calendar.

00:09:50   Incredible.

00:09:52   Other follow up.

00:09:53   We are in the metaverse.

00:09:55   Mike, do you want to tell us about this?

00:09:56   It's not called that anymore.

00:09:58   We are in XR.

00:10:00   We're in the vision verse.

00:10:01   The vision verse.

00:10:02   Yeah.

00:10:03   So I am Bloomberg.

00:10:04   This is a what we call in the business a GitHub repo, which is what it's called.

00:10:11   Yeah.

00:10:12   That's what I'm saying.

00:10:13   If you're in the business like me, in the business like me, which I am in, we call this

00:10:19   a GitHub repo.

00:10:20   Are you in the business of GitHub repos?

00:10:22   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:10:23   You should see me, man.

00:10:25   I'm merging, I'm pulling, I'm forking and I'm raising those issues.

00:10:29   No, you don't have access to any of that in our shared repos.

00:10:33   You don't know.

00:10:34   I do know.

00:10:35   I've, I've already merged and I've already, I've already fought the CMS.

00:10:40   You're just using words you don't understand.

00:10:43   I know what they mean.

00:10:44   Okay.

00:10:45   If you fork a project, you're making a copy of it on your own.

00:10:49   If you are merging, then you are integrating some like code that's been written some like

00:10:54   the into the main project.

00:10:55   What's a, what's a pull request?

00:10:57   A pull request is when, hold on.

00:11:00   I think I do know this.

00:11:01   A pull request.

00:11:02   That make when you make a suggestion of code to be implemented.

00:11:06   Yeah, geez.

00:11:07   You're, you actually do know a lot about GitHub.

00:11:10   You are in the business.

00:11:11   Suck it.

00:11:12   Cause I'm in the business.

00:11:13   You didn't trust me.

00:11:14   I wasn't lying.

00:11:15   I'm in the business.

00:11:16   Uh, but in this business today of Jan Blomberg, they have taken the Ricky's API, which award

00:11:24   winning shortcutter Jason wrote, who does Wikipedia.

00:11:28   They made an API of the information that they use to build their Wiki based tracker of the

00:11:34   Ricky's.

00:11:35   And, uh, Jan Blomberg has created a beta vision OS application to show Ricky's info.

00:11:44   And you can, uh, I guess you can fork a merge and pull, uh, with this, if you want.

00:11:52   Yeah.

00:11:53   I'm into that.

00:11:54   I have a question for you about the metaverse.

00:11:55   Okay.

00:11:56   So now we're in the metaverse.

00:11:57   Which one of us is going to fight Zuck?

00:11:59   This was so I, this was a joke that I was going to make like whatever, but there's a

00:12:03   piece of information that I don't understand.

00:12:05   So I wrote in our document, which one of us will fight Zuck?

00:12:09   There is a bullet point underneath that says no one if Elon's mom steps in again.

00:12:14   And I have no idea what that means.

00:12:16   What does that mean?

00:12:17   Do you know why the fight was canceled?

00:12:19   The fight was canceled?

00:12:20   Yes.

00:12:21   Oh, the fight was canceled supposedly because Elon's mom.

00:12:27   May Musk told him not to do it.

00:12:31   Why does Elon have his mom?

00:12:35   I already have the answer.

00:12:39   Of course, Elon has his mom.

00:12:40   You don't get advice from your mom?

00:12:42   Uh, yeah, but like if I get into an argument with somebody, I don't call my mom.

00:12:48   I'm not 12.

00:12:50   You know?

00:12:51   Mom Zuckenberg is picking on me.

00:12:53   May Musk is like, mom was a part, was like a in fashion.

00:12:57   Right?

00:12:58   Model.

00:12:59   There we go.

00:13:00   A model.

00:13:01   I don't know.

00:13:02   I don't know anything about May Musk other than.

00:13:03   Cause those absolutely cringe-worthy, ridiculous photos of him at the Met Gala.

00:13:08   He's with his mom like from a couple of years ago.

00:13:10   Let's see.

00:13:11   Okay, here we go.

00:13:12   May Musk, born April 19th, 1948 is a model and dietician.

00:13:17   She's been a model for 50 years, appearing on the covers of magazines, including Time,

00:13:21   Women's Day, Vogue, Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue.

00:13:25   She holds Canadian, South African and American citizenship.

00:13:28   She's a registered dietician.

00:13:29   There you go.

00:13:32   So May stepped in and said no?

00:13:34   That's what it seems like.

00:13:36   Okay.

00:13:37   We have a link to SB Nation in the show notes.

00:13:40   I just, we didn't get to state our like personal feelings on this.

00:13:44   Cause it's dumb.

00:13:45   Because it's so dumb.

00:13:46   I wanted Zuck to kick his a**.

00:13:47   That's what I wanted to happen.

00:13:48   And that's what was going to happen.

00:13:50   And I wanted it to happen because he needs to have some kind of ramification for his

00:13:54   actions.

00:13:55   But you know, it didn't.

00:13:56   Pour sweet baby rays on him at the end.

00:13:59   That would have been sweet.

00:14:01   That is going on the ribs.

00:14:04   Sweet baby rays.

00:14:05   Sweet baby rays.

00:14:06   Sweet baby rays is very good.

00:14:07   Sweet baby rays.

00:14:08   Sweet baby rays.

00:14:09   We have just applied the sweet baby rays.

00:14:11   Sweet baby rays.

00:14:13   Sweet baby rays.

00:14:14   Maybe throw some sweet baby rays on the ribs and take it from there.

00:14:19   He would have smoked him.

00:14:20   That's what would have happened.

00:14:21   I was going to say for a while, Zuckerberg only ate meat that he killed.

00:14:24   So having Elon tonight boys.

00:14:27   He was going to hunt him.

00:14:28   Smoking meat.

00:14:29   He was going to hunt him down.

00:14:30   Sweet baby rays.

00:14:31   I can't believe I'm saying this, but there's actually some exciting Apple Arcade news going

00:14:36   on.

00:14:37   This is incredible.

00:14:38   Apple Arcades July lineup is out of this world.

00:14:42   Like there are a lot of games.

00:14:43   I'm very excited about one of these.

00:14:45   But there are three games specifically that are worth mentioning.

00:14:49   One is Slay the Spire.

00:14:50   It's going to be Slay the Spire Plus.

00:14:51   So it's one of those like, hey, we're just going to put the whole game in here for free

00:14:55   and you could use everything.

00:14:56   Slay the Spire is a combat card game, which has been very critically well received.

00:15:03   It's a game that I've been meaning to play for a long time.

00:15:05   I will now play it because of this.

00:15:07   Stardew Valley is coming to Apple Arcade, which is a huge get.

00:15:12   Like that is for anybody who has not played Stardew Valley before.

00:15:16   I really recommend the iPad version of this game is fantastic.

00:15:20   And it's because Stardew Valley ultimately is like, you know, it is a farming simulator,

00:15:25   but it was built for the PC.

00:15:27   So it's very click focused.

00:15:28   You know, you just like click where you want.

00:15:30   And so the Apple Pencil and Stardew Valley is a match made in heaven.

00:15:35   And the big news is Ridiculous Fishing.

00:15:37   I think it's called Ridiculous Fishing EX.

00:15:41   It is a fully remastered version of the game.

00:15:44   This was interesting in the gaming circles because Vlambeer, the company that made Ridiculous

00:15:50   Fishing, they shut down in 2020, but they hired a studio called Co-op to do this remaster

00:16:01   for them and to put it out.

00:16:03   So this Ridiculous Fishing is one of the best iOS games ever made.

00:16:09   But obviously, you know, I don't even know if it would work on a modern device, but this

00:16:16   is going to be fantastic to have back.

00:16:21   I'm so excited about it.

00:16:23   These games are coming out all through July.

00:16:25   If you go to Apple Arcade, you can like press the get button to like preorder them.

00:16:30   But Ridiculous Fishing EX is coming on July 14th.

00:16:34   I was very excited to see Ridiculous Fishing.

00:16:36   It gave me feelings like when Tiny Wings came back.

00:16:40   You know, like they are of the same age and genre and I'm very excited about it.

00:16:45   It's an absolute classic and I'm so excited for this game.

00:16:51   I also wanted to just give a quick shout out today to Broadcasts, the app by Steve Trouton-Smith.

00:16:58   Steve makes this app.

00:16:59   It was, I believe, ostensibly created to listen to free radio broadcasts on an iOS app, but

00:17:04   it's also...

00:17:05   Like this one.

00:17:06   Well, but it was like more traditional radio.

00:17:10   But it also supports web live streams like ours.

00:17:14   So if you listen live, broadcast to our shows, which you can.

00:17:20   We have a calendar on relay.fm/live which tells you when the episodes are going to stream

00:17:25   live.

00:17:26   Broadcast is the best way to do that.

00:17:27   But Steve just integrated SharePlay into the app, which is a really smart addition.

00:17:33   So you could listen to relay.fm live shows with your friends.

00:17:36   And don't forget, you don't need to have a FaceTime call going anymore.

00:17:42   You can have it just started up via iMessage as well.

00:17:45   This is something added in iOS 16.

00:17:48   He had a post on Macedon showing in one window the live page on relay.fm.

00:17:57   And then the second window, Broadcasts playing.

00:18:00   I think it was Upgrade the other day because I worked with him and there's a link on the

00:18:04   relay live page.

00:18:05   Like if you open that link, it adds our live stream into the app, which is really cool.

00:18:11   And so yeah, I'm super pleased he's added SharePlay.

00:18:16   And I kind of had this thing.

00:18:17   I don't know if we talked about it or not.

00:18:19   So if we did just tell me to stop.

00:18:21   But SharePlay is one of those things that when it was announced, we talked about it.

00:18:25   It's like, oh, like, you know, maybe that's sort of out of COVID.

00:18:29   Like, yeah, when I watch Ted Lasso with my, you know, my sibling or, you know, family

00:18:33   member or friend, and I can't see them because of the pandemic.

00:18:37   And I think that's true.

00:18:38   I think Apple, at least partially, was built in response of that, but clearly also built

00:18:42   in mind with Vision OS in mind.

00:18:46   So you could be, you know, miles and miles away from somebody and watch like a big screen

00:18:51   movie inside of the Vision Pro together.

00:18:54   I think that's cool.

00:18:56   And I'm glad that he's added ahead of that.

00:18:58   Yeah.

00:18:59   It seems like SharePlay is integrated into a lot of things on the Vision OS, I think.

00:19:05   And so, yeah, I, you know, I remember, you know, we, long time no see remember, we had

00:19:09   like a two episode arc of like things that people were doing with SharePlay because I

00:19:14   feel like no one is using it.

00:19:17   But connected listeners wrote in to tell us how they used it, which is very helpful.

00:19:21   But I feel like maybe I would be more likely to use some of these features now.

00:19:25   It seems like it's becoming better and better.

00:19:27   And SharePlay is, you know, you'll be able to start with AirDrop in iOS 17.

00:19:33   And I believe, Federico, do you remember what other things are coming for SharePlay?

00:19:37   I feel like it was featured quite a lot in the presentation.

00:19:41   Yeah, I think that the best thing that's coming to SharePlay this year is letting other people

00:19:48   in the car with you contribute to your music playback cue using like local SharePlay, which

00:19:54   I think is a feature that makes a lot of sense.

00:19:56   And the setup is pretty sweet in that like you generate this QR code that you can just

00:20:01   show to other folks.

00:20:03   And they will be able to make like a shared cue as you're driving.

00:20:09   And I think, and I kind of want to try this the next time I'm driving like to a turbo

00:20:13   or something.

00:20:14   I kind of want to paste that QR code on Macedon and have people build a music cue for me as

00:20:20   I'm driving.

00:20:21   I want to see if that works over the internet.

00:20:24   Probably a terrible idea, but we'll see.

00:20:27   And I believe SharePlay, and I haven't really looked into this yet because I started watching

00:20:35   different sessions this year.

00:20:38   But I think you will be able to start SharePlay by tapping two phones together as well.

00:20:43   I think it's also part of that like set of features based on NFC.

00:20:49   Yeah, that's all of the airdrop improvements, right?

00:20:53   Like it all goes together.

00:20:56   This episode of Connected is made possible by CleanMyMac X.

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00:22:26   Federico, you had a really interesting post on Mastodon about those little laundry tags

00:22:32   that we all have on our shirts and our shorts and our pants, and they all have little symbols,

00:22:35   and no one really knows what they mean.

00:22:37   Apparently iOS 17 knows what they mean.

00:22:39   Can you explain this?

00:22:41   So there's two different categories of symbols that Visual Lookup can recognize in iOS 17.

00:22:46   The first one is the laundry tags that I posted today on Mastodon, and the second one is the

00:22:51   car dashboard symbols, you know, the little like icons that light up if you have a car.

00:22:58   It's like, you know, check the brakes, or you got to change the oil, or the temperature

00:23:03   is too high, like all that sort of stuff.

00:23:06   This is all built into the Photos app, so when you have...

00:23:10   So I'm going to try and explain what it looks like.

00:23:12   If you have a photo that contains the kind of content that Visual Lookup recognizes,

00:23:20   in iOS 17 you...

00:23:24   So you will find sparkles around the info icon when you're viewing an image.

00:23:31   So you know the button with the lowercase "i"?

00:23:37   If it has like useful information, it gets little sparkles around it.

00:23:43   So either you tap that info button, or you swipe up on a photo, you will get above the

00:23:50   metadata, like as the very first entry in that lower half of the page, you will get

00:23:58   the Visual Lookup category.

00:24:00   So if it's a dog, for example, you will say "dog" with a little like paw symbol, and you

00:24:08   can tap on it.

00:24:09   "Dog!"

00:24:10   "Dog!"

00:24:11   "Dog!"

00:24:12   And it tells you which kind of... which breed of dog it thinks it's in the photo.

00:24:18   Also like recipes, like pictures of meals and food, should be recognized in iOS 17.

00:24:26   And in the case of laundry symbols, it will say "laundry care".

00:24:30   And so you tap on it, and you get a list of recognized symbols from the image.

00:24:36   And based on the picture that I tested with today, it got like, I would say like five

00:24:45   or six out of nine or something.

00:24:48   So it wasn't all of them, but also it was pretty good.

00:24:52   And it told me, for example, that I didn't have to tumble dry that shirt, which unfortunately

00:24:57   I had already tumble dried many times before.

00:25:00   So this shirt is ruined.

00:25:01   We've all been there, buddy.

00:25:02   Well, I mean, it just proves that that label is a lie because you've done it.

00:25:05   So nothing happened.

00:25:07   Yeah, well, or maybe I always, you know, did this wrong and this shirt is forever damaged.

00:25:14   Who knows?

00:25:15   But yeah, it works pretty nicely, I think.

00:25:18   And it's just one of the, I guess this expansion of visual lookup continues year after year.

00:25:25   But the thing I believe should happen at some point, and I think it will happen at some

00:25:30   point, especially because of the Vision Pro and Vision OS, this information should really

00:25:36   be presented in real time as you're using the camera.

00:25:40   And I understand why it's not right now, because the processing power to do this in real time,

00:25:45   maybe it's just not there.

00:25:47   But I would expect that with the iPhone 15 Pro or 16 Pro, like at some point, we will

00:25:53   get something called like live lookup.

00:25:57   And as you're pointing your camera to things in real time, the camera will probably give

00:26:04   you a little indicator that says, "Hey, this is a laundry tag," or this symbol means that

00:26:08   you got to change the oil in your car and so forth.

00:26:11   Yeah, or the plant lookup, which has been there for a little while now, people are using

00:26:16   third party apps for that because they don't know that it's in photos.

00:26:19   If it was just in the camera app, I think it would be much more discoverable.

00:26:24   Right now you can try it and it's in photos, but you got to swipe up to check it out at

00:26:29   the top of the metadata for the selected image.

00:26:32   I want to check in with betas.

00:26:35   Let's start with you, Mike.

00:26:36   Are you running anything?

00:26:37   No, but I...

00:26:38   Cool.

00:26:39   Next.

00:26:40   No, no, no, no.

00:26:41   I feel like I feel pretty confident that as soon as Beta 3 drops, I'm going to put on

00:26:47   my iPhone.

00:26:49   There are absent things that I know are not going to work well anymore and I want to limit

00:26:53   the amount of time that I have to deal with that, but I am very keen to try it on my iPhone,

00:27:00   especially.

00:27:01   Yeah, I think I'm going to do what you do and wait for Beta 3.

00:27:05   We're a week out from Beta 2, but next week is a holiday here in the US, so maybe we'll

00:27:10   get it a few days later than normal.

00:27:13   Maybe they'll wait until the week after.

00:27:15   Is it every week or every two weeks?

00:27:17   Yeah, it's every two weeks, at least in the early part of the summer.

00:27:22   But I've got it running on my iPad mini and on a MacBook Air.

00:27:28   And the iPad in particular, things are fine.

00:27:31   Like sometimes you get weird issues, like the keyboard doesn't show up when it's supposed

00:27:34   to, but honestly, like iPad OS just does that sometimes anyways.

00:27:39   But I haven't come across any apps that don't work.

00:27:41   Now I don't have any banking apps, which I know are usually problematic for a lot of

00:27:45   people in the Beta time.

00:27:46   Don't have any of those on there.

00:27:49   But like video streaming apps all work, you know, email and ivory and all those things,

00:27:55   Discord and Slack all seem fine.

00:27:57   Battery life's pretty bad, but that's not unexpected at this point.

00:28:01   You know, we're still pretty early on.

00:28:04   There is a funny thing, and I need to create a feedback about it, I haven't yet.

00:28:09   The iPad mini has touch ID.

00:28:11   And if you have the iPad in the orientation where the USB-C port is on the right side

00:28:17   and the buttons on the left side, the little UI for instance, rest to open that kind of

00:28:22   tells you where the touch ID button is.

00:28:24   That just shows up on top of any widgets that are in the left hand side.

00:28:28   There's no blurring or like it doesn't show up in like a little bubble.

00:28:31   It's just like, is that my calendar, you know, it's like edit connected and the round top

00:28:35   of it rest to open.

00:28:37   So like it's some little visual things to take care of.

00:28:40   I do have to say like, I like having the widgets on the lock screen.

00:28:44   I don't think it's as useful as it is on the phone because my iPad is in a case most of

00:28:48   the time.

00:28:49   I think a lot of people have the cover of their iPad, you know, all closed up.

00:28:53   You can't, you don't see it, but it is cool that they're there.

00:28:55   I like it being down the left hand side.

00:28:58   It does make me wish for more spots on the iPhone because we're limited to just the four.

00:29:04   But all in all, iPadOS beta feels pretty good.

00:29:08   And on the Mac side of things, it's a very similar story.

00:29:10   I haven't really run into any compatibility issues with any apps.

00:29:13   I don't have my full setup replicated over there because I know the audio stuff won't

00:29:17   work.

00:29:18   But you know, Todoist and Mail and Safari and Chrome and you know, kind of the regular

00:29:25   apps that I'm using day to day all seem fine.

00:29:28   The performance is fine.

00:29:29   The battery life is fine.

00:29:31   It's a, Sonoma feels pretty, pretty solid at this point.

00:29:34   Are you really using Todoist?

00:29:35   I'm going to give reminders another shot, but I'm gonna wait a little bit further down

00:29:38   the road.

00:29:39   Really?

00:29:40   Why not?

00:29:41   Yeah, do it.

00:29:42   I do it every summer.

00:29:43   I know you are.

00:29:44   I know you are.

00:29:45   I know you're going to give it another shot.

00:29:46   Of course you are.

00:29:47   Someone, it was for MacPowerUser.

00:29:50   Someone sent us some feedback via the website wanting to know if we could talk about Tiktik

00:29:55   at some point.

00:29:56   Tiktik.

00:29:57   I was like, you know, get behind me, Satan.

00:29:58   Like I don't, I don't need another one.

00:30:01   But uh, Tiktik's great.

00:30:02   It's just a Todoist is always what I, what I go back to.

00:30:06   But all in all for Beta 2, I don't think there's anything super unexpected in terms of performance

00:30:12   or battery life.

00:30:13   And things feel pretty good.

00:30:14   Like the new features that are there all work and I like where things are.

00:30:18   So my phone will probably make the jump in the next round like yours, Mike.

00:30:24   So I have the Betas on my phone, iPad Pro, iPad mini and watch.

00:30:29   And I'm just having the best time.

00:30:32   I think honestly, and I've been doing this for, for quite some time at this point.

00:30:38   I do think it's the most fun Beta season I've had in many, many years.

00:30:44   See, now you're going to make me want to install it now.

00:30:47   Because like with stage manager on the iPad, I just feel so satisfied that I was right

00:30:52   about a bunch of things and that Apple actually listened.

00:30:55   And it's such a pleasure to use now.

00:30:57   With the watch, the watch app design, like the new watch app design has really grown

00:31:05   on me over the past couple of weeks.

00:31:07   And the widgets are growing on me on the, like on the watch face.

00:31:11   It takes a while to adjust, like become a habit to swipe up or use the digital crown,

00:31:16   but they're growing on me.

00:31:17   And with the iPhone, I'm just having the best time with interactive widgets.

00:31:22   Third party developers already have some Betas out.

00:31:25   I remember when it used to be that you had to wait until some point in August for developers

00:31:32   to be able to release test flight Betas for a new version of iOS.

00:31:36   Now they can just do it even after Beta 1.

00:31:39   It's wild.

00:31:40   And I already have a bunch of interactive widgets on the home screen.

00:31:45   And their standby, oh, I should also say I put the Beta firmware on my AirPods Pro.

00:31:51   Like I'm just having so much fun this year and my general takeaway, which is like a theme

00:31:56   that I will write about when I do my first impressions for the public Beta.

00:32:02   I think they're not like iOS and IPRS, they're not huge releases this year, right?

00:32:09   Like they have a lot of smaller things that in aggregate make it a lot of fun.

00:32:16   And it, especially iOS, is making me feel that kind of sense of fun and exploration

00:32:24   of apps that I felt with iOS 14 three years ago when widgets first came to the home screen.

00:32:32   Like I'm feeling that again, like, oh, there's all these widgets that I want to try, all

00:32:36   these things that I want to experiment with.

00:32:38   There's more widgets than I have space for on my home screen.

00:32:43   And then there's the lock screen and then there's standby, like it's a very good feeling

00:32:48   that I have so far.

00:32:49   In short, the battery life kind of sucks at the moment.

00:32:51   Yes, I agree with that.

00:32:54   But it's just fun.

00:32:55   Like it wasn't, I mean, you guys remember last year for me, wasn't fun.

00:33:00   That was no good.

00:33:01   Yeah.

00:33:02   iOS 15 was all right.

00:33:04   But yeah, it's making me feel those iOS 14 feelings again.

00:33:07   And I kind of love it.

00:33:09   Oh, and the stickers.

00:33:11   I should mention the stickers.

00:33:12   I'm making all kinds of stickers, like stickers of my dogs in ridiculous poses.

00:33:17   I feel like me and Steven are holding back the group thread, you know.

00:33:20   You are.

00:33:21   Like our God could be popping off right now, but we're just like, we're holding it back.

00:33:26   You have like years worth of old pictures that could be transformed into stickers and

00:33:33   you're not doing it.

00:33:34   So kind of shame on you.

00:33:36   Like a fool.

00:33:37   I'm also like really, really excited to try out the keyboard.

00:33:43   Oh, yes.

00:33:46   It's especially, I mean, the new transformer model, I believe it is on the English, French

00:33:52   and Spanish keyboards.

00:33:54   So the three of us, we all use the English keyboard.

00:33:58   It's so good.

00:33:59   Like, I'm not kidding, the autocorrect.

00:34:02   And I will try to make this point in my review later this year.

00:34:06   It's not a flashy new feature, but when you try it, just to tell people upgrade because

00:34:12   you're going to make fewer typos on your phone and it's so much better when you type, it's

00:34:17   really, really well done.

00:34:19   And I said this like a couple of days after I put Beta 1 on my phone while I was in Cupertino.

00:34:26   I can confirm it now.

00:34:27   It's been what, three weeks.

00:34:31   It makes such a huge difference to the point where, like I, over the past couple of weeks,

00:34:35   I have done a couple of blog posts for Mac stories from my phone, which I hadn't done

00:34:42   in years just because the autocorrect was so bad.

00:34:46   And now I can just feel like, you know, if I have a short post, like a short link that

00:34:49   I want to do, I can just do it from my phone.

00:34:52   And I don't hate doing it anymore.

00:34:54   Yeah, it's good on the iPad too.

00:34:56   It's fast and it seems like it knows what I want most of the time.

00:35:01   Definitely more often than not.

00:35:03   But I think we'll all feel it the most on the iPhone.

00:35:07   Yeah, so the general takeaway, I guess, is that iOS 17 doesn't look like it's got, like,

00:35:17   it doesn't look any different, right?

00:35:18   Because even widgets, they have the same design language as before.

00:35:21   They look the same on the lock screen.

00:35:23   And sure, they're standby.

00:35:25   But like, it may not look different, but it's got all these little things that, taken together,

00:35:31   it makes it so much better than 16 in, like, tangible ways.

00:35:35   Like, yeah, you want to start music from your home screen?

00:35:37   You can do it.

00:35:39   It doesn't look like it, but it makes the phone more useful is how I would describe

00:35:44   it.

00:35:45   This episode of Connected is brought to you by Sofa.

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00:37:44   All right, so we will now actually welcome James Thompson to the program.

00:37:48   Hello, James.

00:37:49   Hello, it is a pleasure.

00:37:50   Thanks for coming on my podcast.

00:37:52   Anytime.

00:37:53   So other than being a podcast host that people hear from time to time in place to place,

00:37:58   James Thompson, I will say, is most known for his work on Peacock and more recently

00:38:02   Diced by Peacock.

00:38:04   And I would also say as being a lightning rod in the developer community for situations

00:38:12   that can occur, either fun or dramatic.

00:38:14   I think that's a very nice way of putting it.

00:38:17   And so we thought at this inflection point in Apple's developer history and platforms

00:38:23   that we would bring you on to get some thoughts about the Vision Pro SDK, which became available

00:38:30   towards the end of last week.

00:38:33   So I guess before we dive into the SDK itself and what developers have access to and what

00:38:40   they don't, as a developer, what is your Vision Pro kind of vibe check?

00:38:47   You can throw in what you think of it yourself, but I am, I think, more, I would love to know

00:38:52   as a person who makes apps, how are you feeling about the Vision Pro?

00:38:56   Developers, developers, developers, developers.

00:38:58   It's one of those.

00:38:59   I mean, I would say that the vibes are, you know, all good on a technological level.

00:39:05   You know, the hardware, I mean, I, unlike some people here, I've not tried it, but the

00:39:10   hardware seems pretty state of the art.

00:39:12   Apple have done a lot of work to make it easier to build a 3D app, even if you don't actually

00:39:18   have a lot of 3D experience.

00:39:22   Like they've done a lot of integration between Swift UI and RealityKit for sticking 3D content

00:39:28   in your interface.

00:39:29   So like everything about that, absolutely great.

00:39:33   I'm still not a hundred percent convinced yet that this is the future or perhaps more

00:39:39   accurately a future that I personally will be able to use given the state of my eyes.

00:39:45   I want to start with some of the basics of Vision OS, and I think kind of the building

00:39:51   blocks for these apps are what Apple call windows, volumes, and spaces.

00:39:58   Can you talk a little bit about what those are and the differences between them?

00:40:01   Yeah, so like windows are pretty much the existing 2D windows that you know and love,

00:40:07   but they can also have some 3D content sitting in them.

00:40:10   You know, it's basically, it's a sheet of frosted glass, little grab bar off the bottom

00:40:15   of the window so you can drag the windows around and put them wherever you want in your

00:40:19   apartment apparently.

00:40:21   There's a little close button to the left of that and you can resize them and there's

00:40:25   a control on the corner that's kind of very similar to the stage manager one.

00:40:30   Volumes on the other hand are kind of like 3D windows.

00:40:34   They've got a width and a height, but they've also got a depth.

00:40:37   They can't be resized by the user and they don't have the glass background.

00:40:41   They're more like a sort of box that you can put lots of 3D stuff in and the user can move

00:40:46   them around like a window and put them where they want them.

00:40:50   And this is probably what something like Dice by Peacock would be.

00:40:53   You know, if you imagine like a little dice tray with dice piled up in it or bananas or

00:40:58   you know, a chessboard, something like that, that's what a volume is.

00:41:02   In theory, could you, I mean, I actually didn't know they couldn't be resized.

00:41:06   That is intriguing.

00:41:07   So do you set a size?

00:41:10   Like a...

00:41:11   Yes, you set a size in meters, I think, for this thing.

00:41:15   So it's a physical...

00:41:17   Even though you can't resize it's somewhat similar to how you would start something with

00:41:20   ARKit, right?

00:41:22   Because I assume you define size for an ARKit object, even though it can be changed.

00:41:27   Yeah.

00:41:28   I mean, the ARKit stuff, I mean, we'll come to that in the spaces stuff in a sec, but it's...

00:41:34   This is more like you are creating this thing and the user has more control over it.

00:41:38   Like the user can pick it up and they can put it somewhere.

00:41:42   And as a developer, you don't really need to do any of the AR stuff in terms of like

00:41:46   binding it to a specific space, like sitting on the table or something like that.

00:41:51   So the system is handling all that.

00:41:53   And so with dice, you would effectively create...

00:41:58   The volume would be the dice tray.

00:42:00   And could you have it that you could have dice tracked with someone's hand?

00:42:06   I mean, like I...

00:42:08   So the hand tracking stuff, I am not 100% you can do in this mode.

00:42:13   I mean, you can do things like you can touch an object and you can interact with it, but

00:42:17   I don't know if it will do the full kind of like...

00:42:19   You could literally pick it up.

00:42:21   But I could press a button and a dice would bounce around inside of the tray or whatever.

00:42:25   Oh yeah.

00:42:26   Yeah.

00:42:27   And like you would have like a certain...

00:42:28   Like if the dice tray was at the bottom, you would have a certain amount of height to your

00:42:31   volume that would be like where the dice could be.

00:42:34   But you can't...

00:42:35   They can't escape that little sort of force field.

00:42:39   Those Ricky's coin flips are going to get real dramatic.

00:42:42   Oh yeah.

00:42:43   Don't mind me boys, just going to put on the old vision pro.

00:42:49   But full spaces are the sort of the big boys.

00:42:52   You just see your own content.

00:42:54   So no other apps.

00:42:56   You can do full AR so you see the real world and you know, you have fish swimming around

00:43:02   your head or whatever it is.

00:43:04   You can do full VR so you don't see any of the real world and you can see pretty much

00:43:08   anywhere in between with the turning of the digital crown.

00:43:13   But you can specify if you only want one or the other and you don't want the user to choose.

00:43:18   And in the fully immersive spaces, you're actually...

00:43:21   It seems like you're limited to like a 1.5 metre by 1.5 metre square around you.

00:43:29   So it doesn't really have the control over something like a quest or a PSVR2 where you

00:43:35   can, you know, you define the play area and say this area is safe for me to be in.

00:43:40   So it's seems to be more kind of less geared towards you sort of walking around a space.

00:43:48   But spaces are also where you can do stuff with custom hand tracking, full control over

00:43:53   pretty much everything the user sees.

00:43:54   You can put 3D content anywhere in it.

00:43:56   It's not just like in these windows and volumes and you get more information about the user's

00:44:01   environment.

00:44:03   So for doing things like the hand tracking or seeing where the walls and the surfaces

00:44:09   are in the room.

00:44:10   So if I was doing dice as a fully immersive thing, this is where I would pull in, you

00:44:15   know, like I could see that my desk and if I rolled a dice, it could fall off the desk

00:44:19   and onto the floor.

00:44:20   And that's something you can do at the moment in like iOS, iPadOS, AR kit stuff.

00:44:28   I have a...

00:44:29   This might sound like a strange question, but there is a reason to it.

00:44:32   For as much as you know, is it a 1.5 metre square around you or is it a 1.5 metre square

00:44:38   from a specific point?

00:44:41   I think it's like you are in the centre of a square, which is 1.5 metres by 1.5 metres.

00:44:47   And does this only count when you're in the like VR mode or do you have this when you're

00:44:52   doing something immersive in AR?

00:44:54   So I believe that this is just...

00:44:57   The documentation suggests it's just when you're in the fully immersive mode, but I

00:45:02   don't think this stuff is working entirely in the simulator yet.

00:45:06   So there's some open questions.

00:45:08   Probably pretty hard to simulate.

00:45:10   Yes.

00:45:11   Because the reason I ask this is the dinosaur experience thing.

00:45:16   That was quite clearly an immersive view, but it was definitely occupying a larger than

00:45:23   1.5 metres square.

00:45:24   Yeah, it was bigger than that.

00:45:26   Yeah, it was the whole room.

00:45:28   It was projected on the wall opposite where we were sitting, which was much further than

00:45:34   1.5 metres away.

00:45:35   So there was a volume then, I guess.

00:45:38   No, no, that wouldn't be a volume.

00:45:39   It would be...

00:45:41   I presume that was in AR mode, like you could see the room.

00:45:44   That's what I asked because you could see the room.

00:45:48   So it sounds like it was a full space, an AR space.

00:45:53   Maybe the AR spaces are not restricted in size.

00:45:56   I think it's when you're in the fully immersive, like you can't see the world at all stuff.

00:46:02   If you try and go out of that initial area, it will just drop it down so you can see the

00:46:09   outside.

00:46:10   I expect that this is Apple's way of trying to get around having to draw boundaries.

00:46:15   Yeah, I mean, I really like the way that the Quest and the PSVR2 does that.

00:46:21   It's not elegant though, is it?

00:46:23   Yeah.

00:46:24   And it really isn't.

00:46:25   Like, you know, my hope is that, you know, as time goes on, like we don't have to do

00:46:29   that at all with these things.

00:46:31   That just like the technology in these headsets are smart enough to intuit what I can and

00:46:35   can't walk into.

00:46:36   Right?

00:46:37   I feel like they should be able to realize like this is a table.

00:46:41   Like I can't walk into the table.

00:46:43   Yeah, I don't get the impression that this is geared at the moment for sort of walking

00:46:48   around when you're in one of these things.

00:46:51   You're sitting on your couch while your family despairs beside you.

00:46:54   Yeah, I can walk around one and a half meters at a time, you know.

00:47:00   It's going to be a very short walk.

00:47:01   Wow.

00:47:02   Long thighs, big steps.

00:47:03   It's a running place, you know.

00:47:06   That's what it is.

00:47:09   So correct me if I'm wrong here, James.

00:47:12   So setting aside, Peacock4Mac, you were day one on the App Store for the iPhone, the iPad,

00:47:21   the Apple Watch.

00:47:22   The Apple TV.

00:47:24   The Apple TV.

00:47:25   I think that's all of them.

00:47:26   We have game controller support, never forget.

00:47:29   With game controller support?

00:47:31   Yes.

00:47:32   So you have quite some experience in terms of dealing with a brand new SDK, right?

00:47:38   Sort of taking your existing commercial product and making it work for a new Apple platform.

00:47:45   And right now, like I remember, for example, the days of like your original iPad when developers

00:47:50   would cut out like a piece of cardboard and make it look like a tablet because the iPad

00:47:54   was announced in January, but it wouldn't ship until April.

00:47:57   So some folks did that.

00:48:00   How are you finding, like what are your early impressions from like right now, a technical

00:48:05   perspective like using a simulator instead of the real hardware?

00:48:09   And if you allow me an immediate follow up question, do you have any interest?

00:48:14   See, I'm trying to be efficient.

00:48:16   So that's the first question is what are your early impressions?

00:48:19   And follow up, are you considering any of the in-person labs this summer?

00:48:24   So designing an app for a device that you haven't used is always a challenge.

00:48:29   And honestly, this is the biggest one yet.

00:48:32   So the difference between using a phone app in the simulator where you're clicking on

00:48:37   buttons or actually holding a phone in your own hand is totally different.

00:48:42   And you get a sense of what button sizes work, how much your hand can move and things like

00:48:48   that.

00:48:49   So that was difficult enough.

00:48:50   But this, I've got no idea what feels right in a three-dimensional space for the user

00:48:56   interface.

00:48:59   You can do a lot in the simulator if you're building a traditional app with some, let's

00:49:04   say light 3D elements.

00:49:06   I think it's going to be way harder if you're trying to build a 3D first app, like particularly

00:49:11   something like a game.

00:49:13   You know, they've extended SwiftUI and stuff and you know, you can make 3D apps in theory

00:49:19   in the simulator as easy.

00:49:20   You can make 2D ones.

00:49:21   But yeah, it's a tricky problem to solve.

00:49:27   And I think the first apps that we're going to get for this thing might not be much more

00:49:34   than like your iPad, iPhone apps with some bells and whistles.

00:49:42   As for the labs, I mean, they're going to be, we're going to be able to apply for them.

00:49:49   Same for the SDK and well, sorry, the developer kit.

00:49:57   And you know, I will put my name down and somebody will see my name and will either

00:50:01   go that guy.

00:50:04   And maybe, I mean, that guy.

00:50:11   That could be two different.

00:50:14   I mean, I think it's going to be like extremely oversubscribed, particularly in getting hardware.

00:50:19   So I can hope that people know who I am, but then maybe that's a downside.

00:50:24   Who knows?

00:50:25   So you're saying you got to roll the dice.

00:50:27   We can come back to the dice puns later.

00:50:31   I would expect, you know what you're saying about the types of apps.

00:50:34   There will obviously be a lot of apps that are more traditional in UI.

00:50:38   I would expect we would see quite a few of the volume type apps as well.

00:50:45   Like even if you can't test them fully, like I can imagine people would do their best at

00:50:50   the simulator and give it a go.

00:50:52   I'm sure that the spaces will be less so.

00:50:56   However, I would also expect that Apple will prioritize developer kits to developers who

00:51:01   are making full space environments.

00:51:03   Because, well, I mean, of course I'll be making a full space environment for dice.

00:51:08   Like dice from all angles.

00:51:10   You are in the tray and the dice are coming at you.

00:51:13   But that makes sense, though, right?

00:51:15   It's the hardest thing, as you said, it's the hardest thing to test without some hardware,

00:51:22   you know, without the ability to plug in, say, a HTC Vive into your Mac and do it, right?

00:51:27   Which is something we were wondering about.

00:51:28   But it seems like the hardware developer kits will be coming so much sooner than people

00:51:34   expected that maybe even they'll prioritize the spaces at first.

00:51:39   But in a few months' time, maybe they'll start giving out to developers who are looking to

00:51:43   make different types of apps as well, because we're so far away from the device actually

00:51:49   shipping.

00:51:50   I mean, I think like, you know, people like Microsoft clearly got access to at least the

00:51:55   developer kit, if not hardware already.

00:51:58   And yeah, I mean that, like the Microsoft Office that they showed up, you could have

00:52:01   totally done that just in the simulator.

00:52:04   I am curious whether it's going to be like a one and done with the developer kits that

00:52:10   they just say, right, the first thousand people who have a reasonable idea that you will get

00:52:14   one for six months and then you give it back.

00:52:16   I don't know.

00:52:18   I see why you said the only reason that I would have paused on that is just because

00:52:22   of how early they've opened it up.

00:52:25   Like they've got to be realistic.

00:52:26   Like people won't have had, may not have had their idea until September.

00:52:30   Right.

00:52:31   So, yeah, I mean, I think the reason that they're going so early is because this is

00:52:37   such a different thing.

00:52:38   I mean, it's much more than like the watch or the TV even.

00:52:47   It's completely different way of thinking.

00:52:50   So yeah, that's why I think we're getting such a long lead time.

00:52:55   And if there's companies like, you know, if there's like game developers or whatever who

00:53:00   are trying to bring stuff across, they're going to need a really good run up to do this

00:53:05   too.

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00:54:57   We've had you on because we've been seeing your images of the simulator and we've been

00:55:00   seeing so many other developers share their images of the simulator and their apps running.

00:55:05   But this simulator looks very different to other Apple simulators they've released in

00:55:10   the past, which tend to just be like windows that look like the device, you know, because

00:55:15   it's easy to just draw a square and that's where the screen sits within.

00:55:20   Apple have built a 3D environment to test your apps in with different rooms, which is

00:55:28   also very fun.

00:55:29   I don't really know why they made different rooms, but I kind of love that they did.

00:55:32   What is it like to actually use this simulator?

00:55:35   How do you control it and maneuver within it and stuff like that?

00:55:38   So it's a bit like playing the world's worst FPS game.

00:55:43   So you're moving around like these little preset environments that you said, you know,

00:55:49   there's a small apartment, there's a museum and there's different lighting conditions

00:55:53   you can pick.

00:55:55   And default is if you click on something, it's like you were looking at it and you've

00:56:02   moved your fingers together to do the little gesture.

00:56:06   And there's controls along the bottom of the simulator, which change things so that if

00:56:11   you change it, you can click it, you click and drag and instead of the clicks going to

00:56:17   the app, it will actually just pan your view around and there's some way you can move up

00:56:23   and left and right and stuff within the space.

00:56:25   But it's kind of feel like I haven't actually tried this.

00:56:29   They should connect a game controller up to it and see if you can actually move around

00:56:33   it slightly easier.

00:56:35   You can.

00:56:36   Yeah, you can connect to play shows controller and move around a bit.

00:56:41   I'm doing this because our friend at the show underscore David Smith, he texted me and said,

00:56:45   which game controller should I buy so I can use the simulator?

00:56:49   I'm expecting that yes, you can or maybe he was just wondering for control, but I believe

00:56:53   you can move around the simulator with a game controller.

00:56:57   The thing is, it doesn't actually get you much because with the stuff that you're doing,

00:57:01   particularly if you're doing the windows of the volume stuff, it's right in front of you.

00:57:08   And you know, you're seeing a 2D representation of it, but it's kind of filling most of that

00:57:13   screen.

00:57:14   You can leave it in the kitchen and go for a wander around the apartment, but that's

00:57:18   not really helpful when you're trying to develop an app.

00:57:21   I have a follow up question.

00:57:24   What is your favorite simulator room?

00:57:28   Or let me rephrase it.

00:57:30   If Tim Cook asked you to like, hey, you got to wait for me here for 30 minutes in one

00:57:37   of these rooms, which one would you wait for Tim Cook for 30 minutes alone in which room?

00:57:43   I mean, I think it's got to be the museum because I would feel quite cultured and I

00:57:48   could look at the art on the walls and I would feel calm, I think as I met Tim.

00:57:55   But if I'm in some random apartment and I don't know who it is, I'm just going to be

00:58:00   stressed.

00:58:01   I can't remember who it was now.

00:58:05   Was it Simon Stovering filed a radar because he found a wrinkle in the rug?

00:58:12   Did you see this?

00:58:13   I didn't see that.

00:58:14   I'll try and find this.

00:58:17   If it was Simon, he put it on Mastodon.

00:58:20   I'll find it.

00:58:22   If only Mastodon search was search.

00:58:25   Yeah, I'm literally just going to have to go through all of his posts and really hope

00:58:31   that it was him because otherwise, yeah, I found it.

00:58:34   I found it and he filed a feedback.

00:58:36   Like it's very funny.

00:58:38   I'm just going to read it.

00:58:40   So please straighten the wrinkle in the carpet in the living room scene in the vision pro

00:58:43   simulator description.

00:58:46   Please describe the issue.

00:58:47   There's a wrinkle in the carpet in the living room scene in the vision pro simulator.

00:58:50   This is a slight annoyance to look at, but will become a real problem once my robot vacuum

00:58:54   cleaner starts and gets stuck and I don't have my living room scene cleaned or even

00:58:58   worse so much over the rink and breaks a leg.

00:59:01   Very funny.

00:59:02   The other one I saw was Ben McCarthy and they had posted some pictures of Obscura running

00:59:11   in the simulator.

00:59:13   I thought it just looked like their apartment, you know, like totally clean lines and nothing

00:59:18   really going on.

00:59:19   I think that's actually right.

00:59:21   We had Ben on Mac stories weekly a few weeks back and they sent us photos of their desk

00:59:27   set up and it was all like super minimalistic and white and maybe the simulator is styled

00:59:35   on Ben's apartment.

00:59:36   That's where they got the inspiration.

00:59:38   It's a great aesthetic.

00:59:39   So yeah.

00:59:40   So we talked about some of the different ways that apps can take shape in vision OS, but

00:59:46   there's also a compatibility story here where developers can have their iPad app up and

00:59:53   running.

00:59:54   Is that been easy to do?

00:59:55   Yeah.

00:59:56   It's literally zero effort.

00:59:58   You just build your app as normal and you can run it in the vision pro simulator exactly

01:00:04   like as you would choose between running it on an iPhone, any of the bottles or an iPad

01:00:09   or whatever.

01:00:10   So it's just another entry that appears there.

01:00:12   There are some interesting restrictions that you see from that.

01:00:16   Like everything runs light mode only and I don't know if there's a way to override that.

01:00:22   It's fixed window size and there's like a little rotate control above the top if you

01:00:29   support rotation.

01:00:31   If you have an iPad app that does AR stuff currently, as far as I can tell that would

01:00:37   not work generally.

01:00:42   And you can run iPhone apps as well.

01:00:44   Interesting.

01:00:45   I don't think they talked about that.

01:00:46   I wonder if that'll be available, I guess, in the app store for vision OS or maybe it

01:00:52   would be like in the Mac app stores.

01:00:54   Like yes, this technically can run, but it's downplayed.

01:00:58   There's like a 2x, 4x, and 70x button, you know, like it's bigger and bigger.

01:01:05   They stick the iPad or iOS apps in a little sort of compatible apps folder automatically.

01:01:13   So you know, everything has the circular icon and then you see the sort of, you know, cursed

01:01:21   old apps.

01:01:23   So James, is there a way for you to explain to three, shall I say, non-developer types

01:01:30   like us, how complex, like how much work it is to get like one of your existing apps to

01:01:36   run as a native vision OS app instead of like the iPad compatibility mode?

01:01:42   Like how does that work and how much work is that for you?

01:01:48   I'll try and I'll take the slow for you.

01:01:51   Thank you.

01:01:52   I mean, it really depends on how modern your code is and what technologies you're using.

01:01:57   How modern is your code?

01:01:58   My code is...

01:02:00   So Dice and Peacock are both traditional UI apps and Peacock has been around for what

01:02:09   we have 15 years or something like that.

01:02:11   So I got both of them building and running in under an hour, I would say.

01:02:19   Pretty much everything works.

01:02:21   It just looks really bad.

01:02:22   You know, the spacing of controls is all over the place.

01:02:26   Some things just feel like they don't make sense on Vision OS, like popovers particularly.

01:02:32   So I think there's a UI cleanup needed there at a minimum.

01:02:36   And there's some stuff in terms of the APIs that aren't there that's kind of obvious.

01:02:41   It doesn't make sense with the Vision Pro.

01:02:43   So there's like a common thing you might do is to get the size of the screen.

01:02:48   So you know if you're laying stuff out and it's like, well, you can't get that.

01:02:52   Or the orientation of the device, like if it's an iPad that's horizontal or vertical.

01:02:58   So the majority of the work I needed to do was basically to patch that stuff out and

01:03:02   anywhere in the code where I was accessing things like that, just lie to the app and

01:03:06   say, yeah, it's this.

01:03:09   And doing that...

01:03:10   Is that because the windows are so much more resizable?

01:03:13   Like the Apple basically wants you to just like flow?

01:03:17   It's not so much that because you can get the size of the window.

01:03:21   That exists.

01:03:22   But there was also like a device object which you could query and you could ask it things

01:03:28   about kind of like the hardware you were running on.

01:03:32   That is just something you can't do.

01:03:33   You can find out the size of the window.

01:03:35   If your app is written in Swift UI, then things are in theory going to be easier for you because

01:03:41   the UI in those apps, it's less precisely defined in terms of how it looks.

01:03:47   You kind of just say, you know, I want this list of controls or whatever in the system

01:03:51   does it.

01:03:52   So in theory, that's going to adapt better to the host platform.

01:03:56   And the other thing that they said was if your code is basically up to date with sort

01:03:59   of like iOS 14 era APIs, everything should be there and it should mostly just work.

01:04:05   Two of the things they explicitly called out as not being supported were storyboards and

01:04:09   SpriteKit.

01:04:11   Storyboards are a way of laying out your user interface and SpriteKit is just a 2D graphics

01:04:17   stuff.

01:04:18   And they said they're not supported except they seem to work.

01:04:21   So I'm not 100% sure about that because I've got both storyboards and SpriteKit in dice.

01:04:26   It worked.

01:04:27   I feel like that they're two different things, right?

01:04:29   Like not supported and works like that.

01:04:32   Yeah.

01:04:33   I mean that that's the thing.

01:04:34   There's a lot of stuff that is supported for now like UIKit.

01:04:38   Like it almost feels like they're immediately saying this is deprecated like with version

01:04:43   one.

01:04:44   They are literally saying that like there are warnings, like hundreds of warnings saying,

01:04:49   I mean why are you doing that?

01:04:50   Oh I wouldn't.

01:04:52   Yeah.

01:04:53   I know that's and then you get that a hundred times and the message is pretty clear.

01:04:58   So you need to use Swift UI to access a lot of the functionality, notably any of the true

01:05:02   3D content.

01:05:04   So Apple's got this older 3D engine scene kit and you can use it, but you can't display

01:05:10   any 3D content that's got depth.

01:05:13   So everything runs okay, but it will just look like a completely flat screen, whatever.

01:05:20   And that's the 3D engine that I use for dice, Peacocks About Screen, Podcaster Tron, all

01:05:26   this stuff.

01:05:27   So yeah, I need to redo all that.

01:05:30   Did actually like I have a reality kit mode that's in dice where I was like experimenting

01:05:37   with stuff.

01:05:38   So I think I can do most things, but yeah, we're not going to get a 3D screensaver by

01:05:43   September.

01:05:44   I apologize.

01:05:45   Do you really need a screensaver?

01:05:47   Because it's just for your eyes really.

01:05:49   Yeah, but can you imagine being inside that screensaver and how that would feel?

01:05:53   Especially the tube one.

01:05:54   The tube one would be upsetting.

01:05:56   Is closing your eyes like a screensaver for your eyes?

01:06:01   Screensaver for your brain.

01:06:02   It's almost like the sleep mode that computers have.

01:06:05   And sometimes when you close your eyes, you can still see things.

01:06:08   You know, the thoughts are really the screensavers.

01:06:11   Wow.

01:06:12   I mean, I know this is a comment not needed to be said, but I said it anyway.

01:06:19   It's almost like Apple have been saying, "Use SwiftUI for a reason."

01:06:23   You know, like, these are the reasons they want people to use this technology.

01:06:29   I'm genuinely surprised that they supported UIKit and brought over, you know, things like

01:06:34   SceneKit, even if they're not rendering in 3D, they're still there.

01:06:39   And I imagine that all this is there so that they can get things like Microsoft Office

01:06:43   on board, who presumably are not going to rewrite their entire app into SwiftUI overnight.

01:06:49   So on the one hand, I see why they did it, it's pragmatic and it makes sense.

01:06:54   And they actually support a lot more stuff than I thought they would.

01:06:58   You know, like, so you get, with the windows, you get these things called ornaments, which

01:07:03   are kind of like little toolbars that float outside the content of the window.

01:07:07   And you can do all that stuff in UIKit as well.

01:07:10   So you know, there is stuff there, but I'm kind of surprised they didn't draw the line

01:07:16   in the sand and say, "This is SwiftUI only.

01:07:18   We've been saying this for years, you should have listened to us."

01:07:21   How much work is ahead of you from the point where you are now, we'll use DICE.

01:07:26   I think DICE is the easiest example, right?

01:07:28   Of like an app that I think fits for this neatly.

01:07:31   I have no doubt you will find some way to make PCALC work amazingly on the Vision Pro,

01:07:36   but I'm assuming most of our listeners would be able to perceive DICE by PCALC in VisionOS.

01:07:43   How much work is ahead of you from now the iPad app to what you would want to say, be

01:07:48   able to build a DICE tray in a volume that DICE could fly around inside of?

01:07:52   I mean, realistically, there's as much work as I want to do and as much as I'm able to

01:07:57   do.

01:07:58   And also kind of is going to depend if I get a developer kit.

01:08:03   You know, if I don't get a developer kit, I'm not sure how well I can do some of this

01:08:08   stuff.

01:08:09   That's not a threat, Apple, you know, like.

01:08:11   Or is it?

01:08:12   For DICE, there are different ways that I could bring it across.

01:08:17   And like the simple one is like literally pull what is there and have the scene kit

01:08:23   flat 2D thing.

01:08:25   And it would probably work.

01:08:27   And people, you know, it would be in quotes a VisionOS app.

01:08:31   But is it the kind of thing that people actually want?

01:08:34   It's certainly not the kind of thing that would get featured by Apple.

01:08:38   I guess it depends on how many apps there are.

01:08:40   Maybe they'll be featuring iPad apps.

01:08:43   I mean, they're shipping some iPad apps and some of the system apps on the thing are a

01:08:47   lot of iPad apps.

01:08:48   But both of my apps are running.

01:08:52   But I wouldn't say that they're necessarily running well.

01:08:55   You know, there's the spacing issues and the stuff clipping.

01:08:59   And you know, I would need to do some thinking about how best to adapt them to the platform.

01:09:04   But what I was thinking of is in some ways, it's like bringing an iPad app to the Mac

01:09:10   using catalyst.

01:09:11   You know, you can just click a checkbox and there's an app.

01:09:16   But don't do that.

01:09:18   You know, there is a lot of extra work you should do.

01:09:20   And for this, I think it's a lot more extra work to kind of like think, reimagine your

01:09:26   app for how it was going to work on a system like this.

01:09:29   People are going to have some wacky ideas or best practices will evolve and sort of

01:09:34   emerge over time.

01:09:37   And I think that's going to be interesting to watch.

01:09:40   Like even if there's not a lot of apps at the beginning, where they end up six months

01:09:44   or a year down the road is also exciting.

01:09:46   Yeah, I mean, I think you're going to see a lot of Apple's apps coming over in a pretty

01:09:53   flat state, maybe with some like 3D stuff added to them.

01:09:59   I mean, they have added some stuff that is like the way you would display an image currently

01:10:04   in an app.

01:10:05   You know, you just load the image named foo and display it in this space.

01:10:10   You can do that with a piece of 3D content and it will float above the window.

01:10:16   So there are some things that you could easily do to make the apps sort of pop a bit more.

01:10:23   But I think, yeah, the completely reimagined stuff.

01:10:28   I mean, for a start, I don't know if that's what you want.

01:10:30   I mean, do you want to sit in, you know, like logic or final cut in a fully immersive space

01:10:36   with everything around you?

01:10:38   Or are you going to be using this like a sort of desktop computer environment where you're

01:10:45   looking around at your windows and stuff?

01:10:47   I think the answer to that question is depends.

01:10:52   The example you gave, which is logic, no, I don't want to do that.

01:10:56   But there are other apps where the answer would be yes, right?

01:11:01   But I think it's up to each developer to decide if they have the-- what kind of app they have.

01:11:08   And whether it can work, right?

01:11:11   Like my-- I would assume really that the best thing for Peacock is to just be more regular

01:11:19   app, right?

01:11:21   Like a window app.

01:11:23   Like that's going to be how people will want to use it.

01:11:25   But Dice will be best served as a volume most likely.

01:11:29   So I think it's just how will it feel?

01:11:31   Yeah.

01:11:32   I mean, I think you could run Dice pretty much in three modes.

01:11:35   You could have it as like a little portal window that you're looking into your Dice

01:11:41   tray and it is still from like different camera angles or whatever.

01:11:47   Or you could have it as a physical tray sitting on your desk.

01:11:50   Or you could have it, you're rolling your Dice and they're falling off your table kind

01:11:54   of mode and you can swish them around with your hands.

01:11:57   And that's kind of three apps to write.

01:12:02   So yeah.

01:12:04   I mean, I'm going to be busy.

01:12:05   But each of those would be fully appropriate.

01:12:07   Well, like if you put something into, like if you put Peacock in as a volume that you

01:12:12   could put on your desk, that's cute, but not necessarily like appropriate.

01:12:18   That seems like sort of Easter egg level.

01:12:20   That seems like something James would do, right?

01:12:22   But you know what I mean?

01:12:23   It does.

01:12:24   But like, go back to that question that you asked of like, what app, you know, do you

01:12:27   really want an app to be all around you?

01:12:30   It depends.

01:12:32   Some apps will just naturally fit more than others for each type of experience.

01:12:37   And that's what's going to take the time.

01:12:39   You know, a minute ago, Steven, you mentioned conventions.

01:12:41   I wanted to say this before I forgot.

01:12:43   One thing I really hope is that there's some kind of naming convention, like how when iPad

01:12:47   apps are all called HD, I really hope that like developers settle on like, this is Peacock

01:12:53   something, you know, and like that's what everybody calls their vision apps.

01:12:57   That'd be fun.

01:12:58   I'd like that.

01:12:59   I'd like that.

01:13:02   Peacock reality, Peacock.

01:13:03   I don't know.

01:13:04   Because AR or VR won't necessarily work.

01:13:07   I wouldn't be surprised if people put VR in their titles.

01:13:11   Apple might have a bit of a...

01:13:12   It's a shame the XR name went away because we could just slap that on there.

01:13:16   I don't know if it is a shame.

01:13:18   I'm happy that they didn't call it XR or anything.

01:13:20   Dice by Peacock XR.

01:13:23   What about verse?

01:13:24   You know, we could have Peacock verse.

01:13:26   Peacock 3D.

01:13:27   Everything is going to be called 3D.

01:13:28   You know what Federico, that's it.

01:13:30   3D is the one.

01:13:31   Instapaper 3D.

01:13:32   Yeah.

01:13:33   Yeah.

01:13:34   You just...

01:13:35   It's like a huge broadsheet newspaper.

01:13:36   You just like big motions to turn the pages, you know.

01:13:39   I'll show you page call.

01:13:43   I do think we're going to see more of the kind of like just traditional 2D apps at the

01:13:48   start because that's going to be the stuff that people will be able to get done for like

01:13:52   day one.

01:13:53   And then it's going to be over the years, I think we will see things.

01:13:59   And also I don't know if it's like on day one, should I have...

01:14:04   Do I spend my summer doing things like interactive widgets and whatever for the literal billions

01:14:12   of customers who are going to have devices?

01:14:15   Do I spend my entire summer making a thing that pretty much only developers and the press

01:14:20   will have?

01:14:21   I mean, I guess that's the beauty of early next year.

01:14:25   There is a little bit of a gap, even though we don't know what it is.

01:14:28   Yeah.

01:14:29   But early next year could be January 1st or it could be like May.

01:14:33   Yeah.

01:14:34   I do think we'll see much more about that.

01:14:37   I mean, I assume this is going to stay...

01:14:40   I assume this is going to share the stage with the iPhone in the fall and maybe they

01:14:44   have a better date when we get there.

01:14:48   I would agree with you unless that date is like April.

01:14:51   Maybe.

01:14:52   Then they probably won't show it, right?

01:14:54   Because then it would be just as useless as the last time they showed it.

01:14:57   I could see them doing something if they had more like entertainment stuff that they want

01:15:01   to focus on.

01:15:02   Like, you know, here's No Man's Sky and here's Beat Saber.

01:15:06   I just can't imagine them having an event and not being able to restrain themselves

01:15:11   and talk about it again.

01:15:12   That's true.

01:15:13   That is true.

01:15:14   Like, hey, here's an update on what some of that have helped.

01:15:16   Right?

01:15:17   It could be that, right?

01:15:18   It could be that for sure.

01:15:19   Yeah.

01:15:20   And just like, just don't forget about this.

01:15:21   It's coming next year, but we're like so excited.

01:15:23   We just couldn't restrict.

01:15:24   We couldn't like restrain ourselves from showing you a bit more.

01:15:27   You know, like I would say like for you, James, probably like if you were, you know, if you

01:15:32   want any of our advice would be to focus on the stuff for the platforms that you already

01:15:38   support first, right?

01:15:39   Like that.

01:15:40   There's only going to be so many of these things sold.

01:15:42   And I think, you know, if you weren't confident that you could get like a volume or a space

01:15:49   built, like I don't, it's maybe not worth it.

01:15:51   Cause I think that there is an initial gold rush for this device.

01:15:56   If somebody builds like a volume or a space and just charges for it, like, you know, they

01:16:00   build an app that's in one because it will be like the original iPhone.

01:16:04   It will be like the original iPad where people that buy that device will buy like any app

01:16:08   they can that will be interesting to use.

01:16:13   So like, I do think that there is a, there is an opportunity, but it's not worth prioritizing

01:16:18   over your, like the realistic useful things that are in the next operating systems.

01:16:24   Yeah.

01:16:25   And I think it's, I mean like I, if I spent my entire summer, I could probably have something.

01:16:31   So I think like I will work on interactive widgets until such time as I'm not allowed

01:16:35   to.

01:16:36   Indice though, right?

01:16:37   We're not going to do an interactive widget for Peacock.

01:16:40   Who would do such a thing?

01:16:42   Cause why would you waste your time?

01:16:43   Right, James?

01:16:44   Who can say?

01:16:46   Yeah, exactly.

01:16:47   But yeah, I mean, I do think, yeah, the interactive widgets for many apps is kind of like the

01:16:55   first thing I'll do.

01:16:56   And then seeing where I get from that, it's like, and also like if the kitchens are next

01:17:02   month, you know, that there's a certain amount of wanting to have your code in a state where

01:17:07   you can go down to a kitchen and actually run it on advice.

01:17:11   Can I, can I give a, uh, an editor's note for kitchen is a very, is a, so an old phrase.

01:17:17   What are they called now?

01:17:18   They're actually called, um, like the developer sessions.

01:17:22   Kitchen is what they used to be called, right?

01:17:23   Like that is a...

01:17:24   Yeah, you know, I am a very old school developer.

01:17:29   That's why we don't talk about the beer bash at WWDC anymore.

01:17:33   Indeed.

01:17:34   So, uh, just because there are kitchens in the vision OS, right?

01:17:39   There's an actual kitchen inside of vision OS, which makes it more complicated.

01:17:42   Well, this is true.

01:17:43   If you get an invite to the kitchen, yeah, there could be a...

01:17:46   You left a nap in there, you know?

01:17:48   If your device runs hot, stay out of the kitchen.

01:17:50   That's what they say.

01:17:53   Um, yeah, but I, I, whatever the events are called, you know, they seem to be coming sooner

01:18:03   rather than later and maybe we'll hear about the, the developer hardware the next month.

01:18:10   And you know, if they sent me one, uh, send me one, like it's going to be free.

01:18:16   Um, you know, if I got one, then of course I'm going to play with it.

01:18:21   It's going to be fascinating to see what the operating system is like that arrives on those

01:18:27   developer units.

01:18:29   I think held together with duct tape and good wishes.

01:18:33   I just wonder like how much of the operating system is available to you.

01:18:38   You know, that, that would be really interesting.

01:18:40   I mean, there's quite a bit in the, um, in the simulator itself, you know, there's like,

01:18:45   you know, control center and other apps.

01:18:48   So I think it would be of benefit to, to have a unit which has a lot of the features that

01:18:53   were available to the people that had the, the, the press sessions, because I think it

01:19:00   will help inspire people a little bit as to what they should build.

01:19:04   You want like with any of these things, you look at Apple's first party apps and they

01:19:08   are kind of like, they set the tone for what the interface is going to be for this thing.

01:19:13   So yeah, I think it would make total sense.

01:19:16   Well James, thank you for joining us today.

01:19:19   I'm really excited to see what you come up with.

01:19:21   I mean, I think all three of us, when we saw this device, we instantly thought of you.

01:19:26   You worked so hard to be on all these platforms on day one.

01:19:29   Fingers crossed that you get some time in the, uh, in the developer labs and hardware

01:19:35   and all that stuff.

01:19:36   If nothing else, I'll have the screen saver ready.

01:19:38   Perfect.

01:19:39   Where can people find you online, James?

01:19:41   Um, I'm James Thompson on Macedon.social.

01:19:45   That's Thompson without a P. And peakout.com is where all my apps live.

01:19:50   And you might find me on Twitter, but I'm not really there.

01:19:54   I think that does it for this week's episode.

01:19:56   A big thank you to James again for joining us.

01:19:59   Talk all about vision.os.

01:20:01   I'm sure there'll be many more conversations in the future.

01:20:04   You can find us all on line.

01:20:06   You can find Mike on a bunch of other shows here on relay FM and he is the co-founder

01:20:12   of cortex brand.

01:20:14   You can find him on mastodon as I Mike at Mike.social.

01:20:18   Federico is the editor in chief of max stories.net and is also on mastodon is Vittici at max

01:20:25   stories.net over on the Don.

01:20:27   On the Don is the kid say on the Don.

01:20:30   You can find me on Mac power users each and every Sunday here on relay FM.

01:20:34   Am I writing at five 12 pixels.net and I am also on mastodon as ismh@eworld.social.

01:20:41   I didn't think our sponsors this week.

01:20:43   They're clean my Mac X sofa and notion until next week.

01:20:48   Say goodbye.

01:20:49   How do you do that to you?

01:20:50   Cheerio.