The Talk Show

380: ‘The M Is for Magnificent’, With Matthew Panzarino


00:00:00   It's the end of the month and the only episode of this show I've done other than my live show

00:00:04   It was with Christian Selig and we obviously spent most of that episode talking about red it and that whole saga

00:00:11   so I haven't really done a post

00:00:13   WWDC show other than my live show which now at this point feels like ancient history

00:00:20   I'm curious a couple weeks out Matthew. What's your rearview mirror view of WWDC this year?

00:00:28   Good, you know super exciting obviously anytime a new category comes along. It's sort of just

00:00:32   Drowns out any other news right if you dig deeper into the catalog of what happened there

00:00:39   There's definitely a a good stack of really nice updates

00:00:44   And I think people came away feeling that and I feel that way I feel like there's some good layers of interesting things there

00:00:50   But vision pro right is the only thing anybody really talks about or asks about

00:00:55   I think people are obviously very used to getting iOS updates and hey

00:01:00   There's gonna be some new stuff on your iPhone come September

00:01:02   Maybe a new iPhone come September with this new stuff on it

00:01:05   But they are absolutely not of course used to Apple introducing new categories, right?

00:01:10   So that's all anybody's talking about and that's still what I'm thinking about to be honest. I I

00:01:14   It is and I think I want to talk

00:01:17   I think we'll at least I don't know if we'll go entirely through the keynote backwards

00:01:22   But we should definitely start with vision so that we can spend as much time on it as we want and obviously

00:01:26   That's the biggest takeaway, but my second biggest takeaway, and I have this note

00:01:30   I wrote it while I was watching the keynote with you

00:01:33   It live I was like this is I wrote down

00:01:37   This is a company firing on all cylinders

00:01:39   And it was it and what I mean by that is that I almost feel like it's a coincidence

00:01:44   That it's a year where every one of the other platforms feels like it's having a very solid

00:01:51   update with

00:01:53   Just a very good mix of new stuff. That's actually useful not just like hey, we it's a new year

00:02:00   We need new stuff. Let's tack something else on which I think is a way by other platforms

00:02:05   Are you talking about like Google like no no no I mean

00:02:07   I'm talking like industry-wide if no I'm talking Apple Apple feels like they're firing on all cylinders

00:02:15   Oh, could you're good you're from Mac OS I?

00:02:19   Pad and even the watch like even this nice sort of visual refresh to the watch and a sort of hey

00:02:26   We're at watch OS 10, but we're still sort of and and it's this gadget with only two or three buttons now

00:02:31   There's the the action button for the the ultra it has the most minimal input of any device

00:02:37   We've ever made and we're still to be thinking what those buttons to do

00:02:40   But I think in a very good way, and I know yeah, just big picture and and

00:02:47   UDC every year

00:02:49   It really is

00:02:51   It exemplifies their philosophy or at least on the software side the whole Federighi

00:02:57   organization of

00:02:59   Every year every platform gets a dado major upgrade

00:03:04   for better or for worse, you know every year people there's a

00:03:08   Sure listening to this podcast right everybody wants that snow leopard year where they just say no new features

00:03:15   all we're gonna do is fix bugs and

00:03:18   That's never gonna happen

00:03:20   And in fact didn't really happen with snow leopard like snow leopard actually added a bunch of really important new stuff

00:03:26   Like the big one was Grand Central dispatch which laid the future

00:03:30   for

00:03:32   What do you call it?

00:03:34   multi-processing

00:03:34   Mm-hmm multi-threading for all of their platforms going forward. It was a huge low

00:03:40   I mean, it's the sort of thing where the typical user of a Mac it was like I have no idea what Grand Central dispatches

00:03:45   But from the sort of thing they could add to an operating system was not no new features

00:03:50   Yeah, I mean a lot of that narrative is driven by consumer touch points, right?

00:03:53   It's like hey does still up and have like a bunch of new consumer touch points like panels that I click on right?

00:04:00   Does it have that and it maybe it doesn't but then?

00:04:03   architecturally speaking

00:04:05   When you move to like a different file architecture for OS 10 or introduce Grand Central dispatch these architectural changes

00:04:12   Look, this is a cascading effect that ripples through every engineering org at Apple when you do those kinds of fundamental changes

00:04:19   And so while on the surface me like oh like this is a bug fix here

00:04:23   Meanwhile, the the OS teams at Apple are like I was eyeballs deep the entire year

00:04:28   Like I haven't seen daylight that it could be a different reality for sure

00:04:32   I yeah, and I just looking back at the keynote and all the other stuff before one more thing

00:04:38   It just feels like every single one of these platforms is in a pretty good pretty good shape and and it's a good year

00:04:45   it doesn't feel to me like any of the

00:04:48   tentpole features and again because of the

00:04:51   the time squish

00:04:53   Because they wanted to spend so much time on vision and vision OS in this two-hour keynote

00:05:00   Everything else whatever did make it into the keynote for Mac iPhone iPad watch is what they really really care about and none of those

00:05:07   features seem

00:05:09   Superfluous to me to me with that. That's a canary in the coal mine

00:05:12   I look for every year is when are they starting to add features?

00:05:16   Well, we got to add something and I feel like that's a disaster waiting that that's when platforms start to accumulate

00:05:23   Both technical debt but user interface debt, right?

00:05:28   And I don't and I so I think it's also very good for the company overall to have a brand new platform like vision OS

00:05:36   Where their urge to create all new?

00:05:41   Metaphors all new paradigms all new

00:05:46   inventive user interaction things

00:05:49   There's a platform that really needs it and the platforms that are all mature

00:05:54   Which is let's face it every even iPad and watch at this point should be considered mature platforms

00:06:00   They can just be treated as the mature platforms that they are

00:06:04   Yeah, so less I message apps and more like new paradigms for interfacing with apps in space

00:06:12   Right in space, right? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. All right. Let me start here and thank our first sponsor and it is our very good friend

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00:08:54   so let's start with vision and

00:08:56   vision OS

00:08:58   I'm still thinking I

00:09:01   Know like the refresher course on our demo because you you like me got the 30-minute press demo and the experience of using it

00:09:09   the sort of refresher was the debut of the SDK last week and a bunch of

00:09:15   developers downloaded it and started like converting their existing projects like iOS and iPad apps and

00:09:21   Looking at the screenshots that they're posting from their apps in the SDK. Yeah, that's what it looked like

00:09:30   Yeah, I mean I think that's that's like gosh radical unsurprised like that's that's a good thing when you're introducing new

00:09:37   Platforms is like an early which face it like this SDK is early an early SDK

00:09:44   examples rolling out looking like the thing you saw in person is one of the most radically unsurprising and yet radically calming things you can

00:09:53   Feel about a new platform as obviously developers some people that got the early look at this were developers

00:10:00   And so they saw that and then now they're experimenting with the SDK. It wasn't all press people, right?

00:10:05   They definitely do right seed some demos with developers to give them ideas about what to do or just you just basically

00:10:12   Broadcast. Hey, this thing is real into the developer community without the intermediary layer of like you or I saying hey, this thing's great

00:10:20   You should know more. It was really interesting and now that everybody has the SDK the examples that we're seeing come out of it

00:10:26   Feel very much like what we saw which to me means that even though this is an extremely early SDK

00:10:33   It's actually quite mature. Nothing like the Apple watch SDK, which was just incredibly janky at launch

00:10:40   It just really does function it works

00:10:43   They're taking it extremely seriously and like everybody was involved in making this SDK

00:10:48   It wasn't just an SDK in a box that now has to start talking to other teams across Apple to make it fully functional

00:10:56   Yeah, and I think that comparing and contrasting with the watch is really interesting. I I

00:11:03   Talk about this all the time. Did they launch Apple watch a year too soon?

00:11:07   Was the pressure of we need to prove to the world we can launch a new thing after Steve Jobs has gone

00:11:14   So high that it kind of forced their hand to do it a year early

00:11:19   I think it's questionable and every time I mention it I kind of lean towards yes that they should have waited one more year

00:11:25   Just both the hardware and software wise and every time I mentioned it. There's a couple of people out there. I swear to God

00:11:31   If you're listening to this episode people who still have their original Apple watch say they still using it

00:11:39   And they still like it and I'm like, that's crazy. Yeah. Congrats to you. You're getting your money's worth out of that watch

00:11:45   Hold and at this point definitely hold on till series 9 or whatever's coming out. So don't yeah build upgrade now

00:11:51   Yeah, but there's people or other people who said no

00:11:54   I bought my original and used and and maybe not still using it now, but used it for years and really liked it

00:12:00   So it's a close call wasn't it wasn't disastrous

00:12:02   But the biggest problem as we're talking about software was that the watch kit they made available to third-party developers

00:12:09   was entirely different from the SD from the API's that Apple itself was using to make the first-party apps on the watch and

00:12:17   It was sort of like in layperson's terms

00:12:21   Watch kit let like software running on the iPhone sort of paint a watch screen

00:12:28   And then sort of tell the watch here show this

00:12:31   Yeah, yeah, and it was carplay for your wrist, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's sort of dreamed the interface. Yeah, but with at least carplay

00:12:38   Actually shows what it's supposed to show like it was it was it was a bad idea

00:12:44   Even if it had worked or a very limited idea, even if it had worked perfectly and every watch developer

00:12:50   I know I'll watch OS developer pulled out their hair because that it it would just indeterminately

00:12:57   Communicate between the phone and watch or not. And if the whole watch had worked like that, there's nobody would have bought it

00:13:03   It would have been a disaster and then rewall then why didn't Apple give developers access to the same API's they use because it was so

00:13:11   battery

00:13:13   Life

00:13:15   limited as it was that they didn't they really needed to to

00:13:20   They only trusted themselves to write the software that was actually running on

00:13:26   the Apple watch and just it's

00:13:30   If anything they should have done differently is maybe launched the first one when they did this

00:13:36   2014 announcement 2015 ship but do what they did with the iPhone and wait a year to have any

00:13:41   SDK at all. I think that with the vision it's very different

00:13:46   It is very I even checked and asked obviously there are private API's that only Apple can use on all platforms even the Mac

00:13:54   But the apps that they're encouraging developers to make today for vision OS are using the same

00:14:00   SDK as the apps that Apple is shipping with the platform

00:14:04   Which is how things work with the iPad and the iPhone - and it really shows

00:14:09   We are there going to be killer third-party apps right on day one. Maybe I it doesn't need it. I don't know

00:14:16   I mean, I still feel like we're not sure what people are going to want to do with this

00:14:20   But I do think that where they're showing the SDK to be at is is impressive

00:14:26   Yeah, I mean, I think that the overall like the price will which one I'm sure we'll talk about. Hmm

00:14:31   Well, I think the price definitely telegraphs that you're going to see applications that are aimed at the enterprise

00:14:38   and I think that a lot of the applications that you and I are seeing

00:14:41   demonstrations of or

00:14:44   early screenshots of in the SDK that people are building are probably from the community of developers that generally write

00:14:50   Consumer level apps right like we're seeing a lot of consumer touch points like hey James Thompson's writing PC

00:14:56   Cal right for for vision. What does that look like? What does it calculator feel like in 3d?

00:15:00   What does dice rolling feel like in 3d, you know and like that that's great

00:15:03   and that's lovely to see them all experiment with this stuff, but I think that the price and the

00:15:08   analyst expected ship rates of this thing are all pointing to the fact that Apple is aiming this at the enterprise and at education at a

00:15:18   cadre of people that we are really not seeing those demonstrations from publicly like I've talked I've started talked to some people privately where

00:15:26   I'm like, hey

00:15:27   Do you see a need for this in?

00:15:29   Electrical engineering design or in 3d design started talking to like Disney a little bit about it

00:15:34   Like, you know, I'm asking some imagineers

00:15:36   Are you excited for a visualization because they use this a ton in sight line planning

00:15:41   They use 3d VR and in sight line planning and in sight planning because it allows them to exist on a site as a guest

00:15:47   Before grounds even broken and there's definitely going to be some use cases there that we're gonna see

00:15:52   That will sort of be defining use cases, but they won't be broadly defining use cases

00:15:58   I think in the first tranche of these things, it'll be

00:16:00   Specifically defining use cases. Hey this works for us

00:16:04   It's actually really vital and interesting and we can integrate into our workflow and then we'll have to kind of wait a couple of iterations

00:16:11   Before we start to see a broadly applicable consumer application. Yeah

00:16:16   Well, we might as well parlay right into price and it is funny

00:16:19   I think it was made my tweet or whatever

00:16:21   We call the things on Mastodon if right after the keynote if you'd asked I wish I'd done a poll

00:16:26   Before the keynote is the price gonna come in over it over or under the three thousand rumor

00:16:32   I would have bet the under if I would have and it was the over but in

00:16:37   Everything we've learned since to me make sense and I think I think it all comes down to the fact

00:16:43   I think it starts with the fact that

00:16:45   the displays

00:16:49   two displays per vision Pro one in each eye a

00:16:53   They're there from what you and I saw they're clearly

00:16:56   Incredibly advanced they're they're stunning and by all accounts. I've seen they're so severely

00:17:04   Constrained supply wise that everything else falls out of that. Mmm

00:17:11   I'm not shocked at that at all. Yeah, right. Nobody's stating

00:17:14   Stating this authoritative lease. I think they're made by Sony and Sony's involved in some way

00:17:20   Nobody like so be a Sony is saying we can only make 1 million of these a year. Sorry

00:17:25   It's all private and secret

00:17:27   but through the supply that that seems to be that's one of the numbers bandied about that that they can only

00:17:33   Make the best estimate right now is that in the year 2024?

00:17:37   They're only going to be able to make a million of these displays which would mean at best half a million units

00:17:44   Because you need to per unit. So let's double that. Let's say it's two million displays and then

00:17:50   one million units, but that's the doesn't matter whether it costs a thousand dollars or

00:17:56   $3,500 or

00:17:58   $13,000 if they if they can only make a

00:18:03   Million of them then there's only going to be half a million headsets. That's it

00:18:08   And if they can only make two million displays

00:18:10   There's only a million of them and I think what we're seeing is what we saw literally when we when we tried it

00:18:17   Is that this is Apple saying for our concept for quote-unquote spatial computing?

00:18:23   This is the minimum

00:18:25   viable

00:18:28   Experience level in terms of resolution

00:18:31   Color like HDR the certainly the latency right which is absolutely

00:18:37   incredible the amount of camera coverage this factor that factor the other factor this is the minimum viable experience going forward and

00:18:47   therefore

00:18:49   To make it in the year 2024

00:18:51   requires these very expensive displays

00:18:54   That we can only get so many of and so here's the price right?

00:18:59   And I think that's that's compounded when you think about yield rates right that the rationale for this

00:19:06   limitation and how many screens they can

00:19:09   produce is

00:19:11   Limited of course by production and how many people on earth can actually make a display this high resolution

00:19:15   Which is insanely high resolution at 90 90 Hertz refresh rate etc

00:19:20   It's yield is a huge problem for VR headset screens because dead pixels are an enormous

00:19:27   bother they are enormously

00:19:30   enormously bothersome in VR headsets when you're when they're just

00:19:34   Millimeters from your eye right or centimeters in some cases and I think that is a it's a huge problem

00:19:41   A dead pixel on a VR screen is almost an instant return on a headset

00:19:44   I'm sure meta has a ton of quests going back for dead pixels for anybody that recognizes it or sees a floaty and

00:19:53   Asked hey, what is this and then finally gets to the bottom of it if they're not technical

00:19:57   They may not know what that is or what the problem is and I'm sure those headsets go back and it's a huge problem

00:20:02   So yield is gonna be a big big big problem given how many pixels sir how many picture elements there are in each of these panels?

00:20:09   I'm assuming that they are making enormous panels of this stuff and then cutting out just the bits that work

00:20:16   Right, and and that's probably not 100% or anywhere near it. So that's probably a huge issue. I

00:20:23   Wonder so my guess is that for most of next year this device is going to be backordered, right?

00:20:29   So the knee-jerk reaction Apple announces this at the keynote three weeks ago and the price here's the price

00:20:34   3500 it was sort of a gut punch in the crowd, right?

00:20:38   It was sort of like who it wasn't like nobody booed

00:20:41   but if they had said fifteen hundred dollars, which we now know is unrealistic, but if they had people would have

00:20:48   Cheered right the iPad famously rumors said it was gonna start at a thousand

00:20:53   Steve Jobs says and starts at 499 and I remember I was in the room at the Yerba Buena theater

00:21:00   It was perhaps the biggest applause line of the whole thing. It was the crowd just went nuts and again

00:21:07   It's the media people didn't because they were all typing but the Apple people who were in the audience went nuts because they didn't know the

00:21:13   Price, right? That's how you keep secrets. People don't know

00:21:15   I the knee-jerk reappl announces it 3500 and the knee-jerk reaction in the commentariat is apples out of their mind

00:21:23   This is way too expensive blah blah blah and in the meantime, I'm pretty sure at at this price

00:21:28   It's gonna be sold out six to eight weeks delivery time all year long

00:21:33   They're gonna be selling them as fast as they can make them. I think they probably could

00:21:38   Sell it for five thousand dollars and still be sold out, right?

00:21:42   And yeah, I think one of the things that people don't

00:21:46   One of the things people don't realize about Apple with pricing and if you it's not complicated

00:21:51   All you have to do is look at their history is

00:21:53   They see the price of a product as part of the brand as much of the brand as the name

00:21:59   This is most famously exemplified by the Mac Pro

00:22:04   right where

00:22:06   Especially the the trash can Mac Pro which stayed for years after it was technically relevant and they stopped updating it

00:22:14   They called me and you and freed and whoever else into the patch Kowski and Lance

00:22:20   We were the five people in the roundtable

00:22:23   But they never lowered the price right even even after they made the announcement

00:22:29   They're like, you know, if you want to buy one, it's still there. I

00:22:31   Really? I really did think that after that they were like, oh well in

00:22:36   In between they said they more or less told us they were gonna do an iMac Pro without a quite saying they're like

00:22:43   We have it a vision for an iMac for pros and we were like is it gonna be called the iMac Pro and they're like

00:22:48   Well, let's just say we have a vision for an iMac for pros

00:22:52   It's far more deny that the pro version of the iMac will be called iMac Pro

00:22:56   I really thought that maybe then they would lower the price on the Mac Pro

00:23:00   But they didn't because that price is the part of the brand of Mac Pro and they wanted that price to still be there

00:23:08   When the new Mac Pro came out. Mm-hmm. I mean famously the Apple discount saying right?

00:23:16   Almost everybody famously knows this right but like literally there's a list of retailers in the

00:23:22   Whatever universe like retailer universe was calling. Let's call it premium label, right? I don't want to use

00:23:29   Luxury because I don't think Apple positions themselves as a luxury brand even though their pricing very much sometimes says otherwise

00:23:34   But you have a you have Apple

00:23:38   Chanel

00:23:40   Hermes

00:23:41   Louboutin

00:23:42   Peloton, I guess

00:23:44   Peloton has maybe fallen out of favor Canada goose like you have you have like certain brands that are like this is the price

00:23:50   We don't do sales. We don't do discounts. Like if you find an Hermes less than retail you're like is this fufu?

00:23:58   This is yeah, like this is real because it almost immediately right and like if you see an Apple discount over like

00:24:04   $100 for school back to school. Here's your hundred dollars if you find it a discount deeper than that

00:24:10   You're like what's wrong with this?

00:24:11   Yeah, right and like I think that's that's something that people have to acknowledge when it comes to the pricing

00:24:16   They view the price as the price and if they were to have discounted the trash can Pro after they said hey

00:24:23   We're making new stuff. They would be

00:24:25   Inherently saying this thing isn't worth the price

00:24:28   We were we originally charged for it when they still believed it was worth that price

00:24:32   And they and they want that price to still be sitting there for when the new thing comes out

00:24:37   Right, and so this first generation one

00:24:40   I really do think they could sell it for double the price I and I says if I'm right about how constrained that the screens

00:24:46   Are they could easily double the price to seven thousand dollars and still sell every one they they can make?

00:24:51   but they I don't think they want to do that because they want to be able to say that when the

00:24:56   vision pro 2 comes out a

00:24:59   year later or however later

00:25:02   That it'll start at thirty five hundred dollars or maybe maybe then it'll come to overtime. It will come down to three thousand or

00:25:09   Something something that's more amenable to consumer pricing

00:25:14   But they're they're not going to sell the first one for seven thousand and then say the second one

00:25:18   Okay, now it can be thirty five hundred dollars because we can make more of them because then it looks like they've discounted it

00:25:24   So they're actually I'm convinced they are leaving

00:25:27   Money on the table with the first generation one in terms of if they were only pricing

00:25:33   based on supply demand if you just called an economist in and said what should you charge for this an

00:25:39   economist might come out given

00:25:42   full access to

00:25:45   Apple's estimates for how many of these screens they're gonna be able to obtain an economist might say this should be fifteen thousand dollars

00:25:52   Mm-hmm, and I know that people think that's crazy

00:25:56   But that's that's how supply and demand works when you can't get it. It will become at some point

00:26:01   Is it two years from now three years? I don't know at some point

00:26:05   screens of this quality will be they'll be able to make them about

00:26:10   As fast as they want to as an iPhone panel or whatever right exactly so they can make as many iPhones as they're seemingly is

00:26:18   Demand for that'll happen with this product line

00:26:23   But it's it's obviously going to take years

00:26:25   The other thing I could just say on the price is I thought this was so obvious

00:26:30   I didn't need to say it

00:26:31   But I've heard it from enough readers that I guess we do need to talk about it

00:26:35   The fact that they're calling it the vision Pro and not just Apple vision

00:26:39   mm-hmm clearly is

00:26:41   Telling us in the future there will be other products in the vision lineup that are not Pro and

00:26:48   Therefore less expensive. I let's just say the vision air. I don't sure yeah. Yeah, I think this yeah

00:26:55   It's funny that we have to say it out loud

00:26:56   But I think some people are just that maybe but like just because they're calling it the Pro doesn't mean that

00:27:01   Like they're calling everything in this lineup Pro now right now

00:27:05   No that means that they're creating a pricing umbrella, and then they can fill in under the umbrella with devices

00:27:12   That I feel are probably the here's here's what I think they've established with the Apple vision Pro the baseline

00:27:19   several baselines for what they considered to be

00:27:23   minimum

00:27:25   MBE

00:27:27   minimum viable experience yeah, that's a great term like you have to have

00:27:32   Certain things for this to be this kind of class of device

00:27:36   If you want to call it spatial computing fine, that's apples buzzword, but we'll all adopt it eventually

00:27:43   So they might as well start, but like if you want to say what's the baseline for an MBE for spatial computing?

00:27:49   This is what it is now the baseline for other parts of the experience like hey should the battery be external

00:27:57   No, should it only last two hours no right like there are certain things that can be and should be and will be improved and most

00:28:04   Likely will be improved first in the pro lineup

00:28:07   But as far as what's an MBE you need to have displays that are this resolution in order to render text properly

00:28:15   You need to have this

00:28:17   10 millisecond or sub 10 millisecond round-trip

00:28:20   90 or 96 Hertz refresh rate depending on resolution

00:28:25   You need to have the lack of isolation that the pass-through camera provides at

00:28:30   the exact FOV of your eyes like at Apple has established these things as the MBE and

00:28:36   now they will fill in the pricing umbrella underneath with devices that offer a an

00:28:42   Experience that at least meets this MBE

00:28:45   They are not gonna dip below this line in terms of those key things. They've put a pin in the map

00:28:53   Where they need to go with this kind of thing and then everything else will be lateral from there or up. Yep

00:28:59   Yeah, so like let's say in

00:29:02   2025 they come out with the vision pro 2 and alongside it a vision pro air

00:29:10   that a lower let's say $2,000 or whatever the

00:29:14   Price differential would be that's probably about right, but that min that that vision pro air

00:29:19   I would expect would match this first generation vision pro in

00:29:24   Every one of those specs that pertains to the minimum viewable experience

00:29:30   It's gonna have it's not gonna drop to 60 frames per second

00:29:33   It's not gonna have visible pixels because the screens aren't as high resolution. It's certainly not gonna lower the latency

00:29:40   Right, right. I'd say hey, it's this 2000. It's only $2,000 but you get sick. Yeah, like they're not gonna do that, right?

00:29:48   It's like oh, it's only $2,000, but you can't read text. You can only look at pictures. It's like no, that's it

00:29:53   That's not what they've established now. I don't know what else it would take to get there

00:29:57   But those are the it's like you said it's like that's the stake in the ground. This is the minimum viable

00:30:03   Experience. I love that term, but that's exactly what they've and they tried to I think they tried their best

00:30:08   And if you listen to what they said in the keynote and what they've what they're putting out on the website

00:30:14   It seems to be they're trying to cram it through everybody's heads. That's that's what they're saying and pricing thing is interesting because I think

00:30:21   Everything you've said is exactly unlike Pete. Some people don't really didn't really parse the pro thing

00:30:27   They don't understand like look Apple Apple's pro lineup has always been

00:30:32   Audience limited to some degree like Apple has never introduced a pro device and said this is for everyone

00:30:38   They said anybody can enjoy it like anybody could buy one

00:30:41   We've jokingly you and I have heard Phil Schiller say everybody should buy whatever. Yeah, that's that's very on brand

00:30:48   It's always a joke. It's always

00:30:51   Everybody should know one of everything however

00:30:55   in the grand scheme of things they know like these are inherently devices that are for a

00:31:01   Smaller segment of people that really really need them

00:31:05   like if you introduce a Mac Pro MacBook Pro with an intense amount of

00:31:11   video

00:31:12   processing pipeline capability that's not for like I just need a MacBook for my

00:31:18   Schoolwork right like that's not for that person

00:31:21   It's inherently limited the same thing for this

00:31:23   The pro thing is very straightforward

00:31:24   and the fact of the matter is as much jokey jokes as they were about the price really on what I like to do is

00:31:30   Like a couple of weeks after any Apple announcement

00:31:34   I'll like troll the hashtags on tick tock or Instagram or social or Twitter

00:31:40   Whatever about their new announcement like if it's in a new version of iOS or new iPhone and like this is non-scientific

00:31:47   But it's just something I like to do

00:31:49   I'll look through it and a look through the reddit dank memes

00:31:52   Subreddit for Apple stuff and I just like to see what the memes are like. What is the what is the like the social consensus?

00:31:59   Around these types of things and I know that there are like firms that will do all this

00:32:03   I'm sure Apple does an enormous amount of this or pays somebody to do it, but I don't get access to that data

00:32:09   So I just do my little looky-loo and like the fact of the matter is all the memes that I see about vision pro are

00:32:14   Now like the pricing is involved because like how can you not like say it's a $3500 weird headset thing. That's normal

00:32:23   That's natural. It's completely expected

00:32:25   I'm sure Apple expected it but the memes are like I paid $3500 so that I could experience like

00:32:31   Prints live at the Super Bowl and it's like a picture

00:32:34   It's like a video cut out of a wrap around video experience that they showed in the keynote

00:32:39   with like Prince playing live at the Super Bowl 3 coming down and like that it's it's that layer of like

00:32:46   Acceptance of the price and internalization and then it's sort of a weird social rationalization of what it would take

00:32:54   Even if it's a joke it

00:32:56   Those kinds of things are actually real like they do sink into your skin and they get into you

00:33:02   Like there's a reason influencers are called influencers, right? Like we are as a human

00:33:06   looking for social proofs of our

00:33:09   Feelings about things and it's a rare person that can operate free of any sort of

00:33:15   Externality in in their choices who can say like I like steak

00:33:19   I don't ever I've never heard anybody say anything about steak that that tells me whether to like my steak rare or not

00:33:24   Somebody somewhere was influenced by somebody to say like hey

00:33:28   You should probably not overcook your steak and it'll taste a lot better like there's there's just the normal social signals that we all get

00:33:35   And so I like to look at those and parse those in terms of their announcements and to me

00:33:38   The way that the vision Pro is being like sort of embedded in the consciousness is this thing is expensive

00:33:45   But it could be worth it for the right

00:33:47   Experiences for the right the right thing that touches me and that moves me or whatever now

00:33:53   That's the consumer view right not the enterprise view which me and by and large the initial wave of this is gonna be largely

00:34:00   Enterprise driven but I think it's an interesting thing

00:34:03   And I think it means that people have internalized the price and that it was actually not that high at all

00:34:08   Besides the initial well, whatever over on the price guesses

00:34:12   But I actually think it was probably priced correctly for the market and most people are probably not that worried about it

00:34:19   In other words, it wasn't a big debacle of a price even though it was higher than we expected

00:34:24   Yeah, I kind of feel like if I had to guess what the two big use cases in

00:34:30   the first year or two or at least for this first generation product I

00:34:36   kind of feel it's going to be high-end personal entertainment and

00:34:41   Enterprise uses like

00:34:45   That that one example they shouldn't a keynote where they had I don't know if it was actually f1

00:34:49   But whatever the racecar was, but it was a life-size model of a real racecar

00:34:55   That it just looked real

00:34:59   I mean somebody told me I forget if you were with me at the time

00:35:02   But somebody told me that when Eddie Q who obviously knows his shit about f1 took that part of the demo

00:35:07   He would just couldn't believe it wasn't real

00:35:10   He was like taking the headset off and lift using his natural vision

00:35:13   Like couldn't believe there wasn't a race car in front of him

00:35:15   It was and the things I saw it's that it and like you said about like Disney Imagineers testing sight lines or anything

00:35:23   right, but like to be able to

00:35:25   Put it life-size

00:35:28   Life-colored, I mean we've seen

00:35:30   If you're designing devices or hardware a lot of designers, I'm sure Disney designers do it

00:35:37   I know Apple designers do it is they just have like clay right car design famously

00:35:42   Who hasn't anybody who's even vaguely interested in cars has seen like just a clay model of a life-size car that they score

00:35:49   Right, so they could just sort of see everything and you need to see it and and you need to see it at scale

00:35:55   But something making a model out of clay is obviously time-consuming

00:36:00   It's hard to make tweaks. You don't get the color so I can think of so many

00:36:07   Design type things architecture. I mean because that's the other thing it's not just the putting an object in front of you

00:36:14   Like a life-size model of a car

00:36:16   you can model the lobby of a hotel around you and

00:36:21   It's not a picture. It is you're there and it's not just 3d it is to scale

00:36:29   It yeah

00:36:31   I mean designers designers have used I think that

00:36:34   Like the brain fills in gap the brain abhors a vacuum, right?

00:36:38   And so it will fill in the details like you talk about a car designer working in clay, obviously

00:36:42   They don't have paint details. They don't have right interior architecture of the car

00:36:46   like they're they're working on faith right and and

00:36:49   Experience and skill and like filling in those gaps and all of that stuff. There's like a concept called edge induction. That is about like

00:36:56   it was very it was used in like a lot of ancient pottery where they basically

00:37:02   It allows us to like a distinguish objects in like really dim light like our brain fills in a lot of detail

00:37:09   Based on just shading right and like that that idea that we were we are able to sort of infer

00:37:16   details and infer further

00:37:19   Developments down the line from a design

00:37:22   That's just a sketch or just an outline or just a rough mock or or an early poly model of something

00:37:29   That's that's the way the human brain works and it's great

00:37:31   but the fact is is like accelerating that and enhancing that by providing somebody with like

00:37:36   lifelike fidelity

00:37:39   Should enable them to layer on

00:37:41   even more progress even quicker right and get there faster and all of that and that accelerant is

00:37:48   Exactly why people are so like a hypey typey about AI right? It's like it's not the AI is essentially plagiarism currently

00:37:55   It's synthesis of pre-existing ideas

00:37:58   But it is an accelerant right in any end of the day a broadly applicable accelerant. It's like the discovery of gasoline

00:38:06   It's like we could use this to blow shit up. We can use it to make stuff go faster

00:38:09   We can we can use it at all. We can use it as a solvent right like petroleum

00:38:13   Like you can do a lot of things with it, right?

00:38:16   It's an accelerant for a lot of different

00:38:18   arenas and I think that's why

00:38:20   enterprise people are sort of kind of jazzed on this thing because it's an accelerant to the design process or or

00:38:27   MVP process or manufacturing process or whatever

00:38:30   I think architectural firms are gonna buy these as fast as they can get them

00:38:34   I think industrial designers buy them as fast as they can get them

00:38:38   And but I also I don't want to overlook that personal entertainment angle

00:38:42   And I really I think for like business travel. It's it really is gonna be super compelling

00:38:48   I it's it it really is I think going to take

00:38:53   watching a movie on a plane from

00:38:57   Well, I I've done this I think most I'm sorry

00:39:00   I bet most people listening to the show do where you don't watch the movies

00:39:04   That you most are interested in on a plane you save up like garbage movies or TV shows like that

00:39:10   Because it's not gonna be great

00:39:12   It might turn watching a movie onto a plane into one of the best movie experiences

00:39:16   You can get you put some air pods

00:39:19   Air pod pros in to cancel out the noise and you get good audio and you're gonna get

00:39:25   This simulated 60-foot screen in front of you with full brightness

00:39:29   right, it could be incredible and

00:39:32   to combine that with the work angle to justify like having your work buy it for you for business travel so that you can

00:39:40   sit down at your desk and

00:39:42   get a

00:39:44   simulated 30-inch Mac display in front of you to do work or to do your work in vision OS which I think is

00:39:51   From what I've seen so far. I think

00:39:54   especially for people who who can do their work like

00:39:58   Their email and the messaging and the reading they need to do if you're doing that on an iPad

00:40:04   Then you definitely gonna be able to do it in vision OS except better because everything's gonna be bigger and every I mean

00:40:11   It's it's real. It's not just personal preference. There are it's so I've never seen a human factors

00:40:17   Exercise that doesn't show that having more bigger visual real estate in front of you doesn't make people more productive

00:40:25   Mm-hmm. Yeah and being able to take it take that desk with you and take that work with you

00:40:29   It seems like almost frivolity until you

00:40:33   until you

00:40:34   Have worked at corporation scale or large scale businesses or enterprise at the enterprise level

00:40:40   So I think a lot of consumers who are looking at this if your income level makes it

00:40:46   So this is an extreme luxury purchase for you. There's zero shame in that be honest with yourself

00:40:50   Don't buy it right but you you also can be it could affect your perception of the price and a perception of the investment

00:40:58   That people are gonna make in it, but if like the difference between you working

00:41:02   larger with multiple screens open or whatever is a difference in hundreds of thousands of dollars in productivity or work or

00:41:10   getting a deal written up or sign while you're on a

00:41:13   commuter plane without

00:41:18   Formizing privacy or security like as an example because people looking over your shoulder looking at your like P&L or whatever

00:41:25   I've been there

00:41:26   I've been like shit who's looking at me and I can't I gotta angle it this way and like like this portion of it

00:41:31   I can't let anybody see out of respect for the privacy of the company etc. But like if you're able to do that viably

00:41:38   It's it's essentially a de minimis investment, right?

00:41:41   Yeah, and I think that's that individual use case of just plain work that Apple spent so much time on in the keynote

00:41:49   Should not be overlooked as a compelling case

00:41:52   I think watching movies is gonna be freaking cool

00:41:54   But I think that getting your company to pay for it for you because you're able to say hey I can work with

00:42:00   sensitive data in a public or semi-public environment

00:42:05   Continuously and I fly back and forth to China a lot for manufacturing or I fly coast to coast a lot in the US

00:42:12   and I can handle like private customer data or or

00:42:16   Company data and work with that and be productive. I mean, that's a write-off, you know, am I imagining this?

00:42:23   I think I've heard about this

00:42:24   I've never had a need for it

00:42:25   But I think that they you can buy like polarizing screens for laptops to like make them more private

00:42:31   You absolutely can't yeah, they require my wife has one on her phone. I don't know why I was laughing about it

00:42:36   But you know, frankly it probably does protect her against shoulder surfing and stuff a little bit more

00:42:41   But you if you're off access axis, excuse right a bit to the screen it pretty much goes black

00:42:47   And so these things do exist and but the fact it doesn't stop any from buddy behind you

00:42:52   They just don't look right at it because they're at the same axis as you but yeah

00:42:55   They do and that I would estimate that like the vast majority of business people

00:43:00   I see working with laptops have something like that

00:43:02   Maybe even company mandated in like if they're in business class or if they're in first class or even if they're in premium economy

00:43:08   Working on the laptop, right exactly. Yeah, whatever that is

00:43:12   I think you end up seeing that a lot these days and let's the fact is that data is power and

00:43:16   Data is actually a really important thing to companies and data privacy is huge. So I would underestimate that angle

00:43:24   It's an interesting one. I didn't think about it, but that's true. Yeah, right

00:43:27   I mean there's I was gonna I was thinking like HIPAA stuff for everybody in the medical community

00:43:32   That's probably what your life is is dealing with. But yeah, I mean just just financial data, right?

00:43:38   I mean and think about Apple employees right like how he can't like look at pictures of the products you're working on

00:43:44   Why are out in public? Yeah, if you see an Apple employee with a headset on or on play

00:43:47   And he's probably looking at the next iPhone. You should you should ask him about it

00:43:50   Yeah, so it is super duper private

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00:46:21   Let me let me toss this out as a very high level

00:46:24   Hmm. How is the public?

00:46:27   adapting to this announcement right Apple June of

00:46:32   2023 shows the world vision OS and vision Pro at

00:46:37   WWDC they say it'll ship in early 2024

00:46:41   I asked my live show how early is early in Mike Rockwell said early so I don't think we're looking

00:46:48   I don't think we're looking at like the end of May right before WWDC next year. Technically early is what June 15. So yeah

00:46:55   Maybe Q2 I wouldn't be surprised if it's if we're wearing winter coats on the East Coast when it comes out, but

00:47:06   In 2007 Steve Jobs announced the original iPhone at Macworld Expo in early January

00:47:13   And it didn't ship until the very end of June. So about six months and so there's a similar period of time

00:47:20   for us to speculate based on what they've shown and

00:47:23   Before anybody can buy it or review it or anything like that

00:47:27   And to me the one thing that really it's very obvious, but I think it's very interesting looking at people's reaction is

00:47:36   With the iPhone

00:47:38   the hardware itself

00:47:40   Screamed this is different

00:47:43   there's iconic pictures of Steve Jobs holding the iPhone that he I guess he had in his pocket the whole time while he was talking to

00:47:49   us and

00:47:50   The screen I don't even think the screen was on he just holding up the device and the device itself

00:47:55   Was incredibly unlike every other phone anybody had seen right and then when he announced when they announced the iPhone

00:48:03   Most people thought of their cell phone as something they paid

00:48:07   $30 for when they renewed their cell contract with singular or Verizon or whoever they were with and it may not have been a

00:48:15   $30 device, but it was subsidized. Maybe it was $100 from Nokia, but it was just something

00:48:20   that it was either a flip form factor or a candy bar from form factor with a

00:48:25   traditional numeric keypad and it was something you used primarily to make phone calls or

00:48:31   The existing smartphone market at the time was like a blackberry style device

00:48:36   This just looking at the iPhone hardware looked like neither of those things it was right and it didn't look like an iPod

00:48:44   It didn't look like anything else just without even turning the screen on looked very different

00:48:49   whereas vision Pro

00:48:51   Just looking at it putting aside the eyesight feature just because I don't think that's I don't think the eyesight feature is

00:49:01   Major I don't it's certainly not the reason to get a vision Pro as opposed to a quest 3 or anybody else's product

00:49:08   It fundamentally looks like a VR headset. It's and if anything is bigger

00:49:15   It's it's a look because it's more it's not the smallest by far

00:49:19   Mm-hmm, and I kind of feel like so therefore I think a lot of the initial

00:49:25   Commentary about it is just sort of like what just treating it like all the other headsets on the market because at a fundamental level

00:49:32   It just looks like the other headsets, right? Right. It's not like it has gills or something, right?

00:49:37   And they're like, oh my god gills. It's like oh, we've seen this thing before right? We've seen this this category before

00:49:44   I mean

00:49:44   I think that there's some probably some parallels to be drawn with the watch

00:49:47   Where there were other smart watches which look very similar. They kind of had a screen of some sort and

00:49:53   They've strapped on your wrist. I mean, what's one more is there to a right, right? Yeah, it's a rounder rounder rectangle maker

00:49:59   Mm-hmm exactly. And I think there is some parallels there

00:50:03   I I do feel that like yeah, the eyeballs coming through are probably the the most like

00:50:09   impossible to translate to

00:50:13   Anything that anybody would care about?

00:50:15   Because you have to see them in person and it very plainly

00:50:21   Honestly you and I didn't see them in person because they work functioning and I don't think they are functioning correctly

00:50:27   No, I mean, I think they work like they work in a lab, but they weren't comfortable showing people live

00:50:32   So that's not done yet, right, right

00:50:35   However, I did talk to some folks about this and I think you okay

00:50:39   We were you talked about on your show at all

00:50:41   Maybe a little bit in your interview, but it is quite a bit more complex than a screen. Oh, yeah, that was just a screen

00:50:48   Oh, yeah, that was it. What's it called? Recticular renticular? Yeah, lenticular lenticular lenticular lenticular display

00:50:55   Yeah, and lenticular for people that don't know is like basically just to be simple to simplify it

00:51:00   it's just grooves in a you know, like a an

00:51:03   intermediary medium like glass or plastic

00:51:06   that allows you to sort of look at things from a different angles like those little cards that you get for

00:51:11   Promotion or as a toy like a pog or something that has a little image on it and you tilt it and you see one

00:51:16   Image from one angle another image from another angle, right? And if you strip off the intermediary layer

00:51:23   It's printed in slivers

00:51:25   so you get it in inter locking or

00:51:27   interspersed slivers of each image

00:51:30   so that they're interlaced and then when you put the lens on top you can see one image this way and another image the other

00:51:35   way and that provides you with like a

00:51:38   view of different things well the screen has a

00:51:43   very complex

00:51:45   Recticular array that allows you to look at them from different angles

00:51:50   Look at the headset from different angles and the eyes

00:51:52   Appear as if they are looking at you right there even when they look at you if looking at you

00:51:57   Well or not not that they're always looking at you

00:52:01   It's that they look like they're at the right depth behind the glass and if you are looking at you

00:52:05   They will look like they're looking at right

00:52:08   So if right if there's if you're wearing the vision Pro headset and there's three people in front of you one dead center

00:52:15   One to your left and one to your right

00:52:17   If you look at the person on your left the person on the right will be able to see that you're looking at the person

00:52:23   On your left it won't look like you're looking at them

00:52:26   But your eyes will look like they are where they're supposed to be on your skull not

00:52:31   Painted on the surface of loading out in front. Yeah, and like googly eyes on the end of the glass, right? And

00:52:38   That that was the context of my question to Rockwell on my show was that I can I could understand how that

00:52:44   How they did it so that if you're standing right in front of me how it could look natural

00:52:49   But it didn't make sense to me how it would look right from the side and that's where this lenticular

00:52:54   design plays in that's the one thing from the outside that

00:52:58   Clearly distinguishes the vision Pro but it's such an it and it must add some degree of expense to the product

00:53:06   Obviously, it's an entire. Yeah, and it makes no difference

00:53:09   Like if you're not looking at it in person not difference

00:53:11   But it's impossible to translate if you're not looking at it in person, right? And it is really interesting that it's really

00:53:18   Not for you the user. Mm-hmm, right? So like you

00:53:23   Matthew right right by just open up your wallet and you spend

00:53:28   $3,500 to buy this and you're using it you're sitting there on an airplane

00:53:32   Doing private tech crunch financial work right as we've been doing a spreadsheet

00:53:38   That you don't see the eyes on your goggle. That's the person walking back to the restroom that says

00:53:44   Oh, there's a guy with the vision Pro and see that you and you look up and you're like, yeah

00:53:48   What are you looking at you? I can see you fool. Yeah

00:53:52   Yeah, that is really affordance is interesting because like the importance for you is the pass-through right like yeah, so I get them people roach

00:54:00   Yeah, I guess so. I guess it is for you in a sense, right?

00:54:03   I guess that's that's and I was very skeptical that they were gonna do these I things and one of the

00:54:08   reasons for my skepticism

00:54:09   Was they obviously most of the over thousands of people who've been working on this at Apple

00:54:15   Had no idea about this feature before it was announced in the keynote

00:54:19   I mean people who were working on the software side of things had no idea that this feature existed the the

00:54:24   The prototypes that they were using didn't have this feature

00:54:29   So the hats off whoever whoever spilled the beans on that to Gurman and the guy at the information had it to Wayne mom

00:54:37   Whoever their sources were for that was in a very limited circle

00:54:40   There were very few people who knew about this feature before that was announced at the keynote. It doesn't work

00:54:45   Or it doesn't work in the headsets that people are now walking around

00:54:50   Apple Park wearing this like if you work at Apple Park

00:54:54   You can see there are apparently since the keynote people who were walking around wearing it

00:54:59   The the eyesight feature still doesn't work or it isn't turned on on those units

00:55:05   I guess it is it did one of the reasons I was skeptical it obviously adds to the cost because you've got now

00:55:10   You've got a screen on the front where?

00:55:12   Because if you delete that screen, that's just less money. You have to spend making the thing it adds to the battery

00:55:19   Depletion right and it's already as we know as rumors suggested

00:55:24   It's it's two hours of battery life max or at least that's as per currently promised

00:55:30   and some amount of that power is now going to

00:55:34   the screen on the front that you don't see and it's also going to the well I get I

00:55:40   Guess the cameras for the eye tracking would be working anyway, but it's yeah

00:55:45   It's taking some amount of power away, but it isn't just for the outside world

00:55:49   It is it I guess it would as I imagine myself sitting in the aisle seat on an airplane

00:55:56   Having somebody like look at me like hey is does this guy have that fancy new Apple headset it?

00:56:02   I would like to be able to make eye contact and be like yeah, leave me alone

00:56:06   Yeah, I mean, I think like I think that it's a fits in with the philosophy of the whole thing

00:56:11   Which is the lack of isolation right and if you want to eliminate or reduce isolation in VR

00:56:18   You sort of have to have a two-way pathway in part the other half of that pathway is people to you

00:56:23   Right you two people is great being able to see your surroundings and not be surprised by somebody walking up on you

00:56:29   Or being able to like turn and acknowledge somebody or whatever. That's all fine and dandy but like humans require two-way communication

00:56:35   So if you're to turn and look at them

00:56:38   You're not getting the full connection with them

00:56:41   If your screen is just the silvery glass black thing this bug-eyed thing

00:56:45   You're you're not getting that that spark that happens with D2 humans looking each other in the eye

00:56:50   And so it is I think a service to both. I don't think it's one way at all

00:56:55   I think it is about two-way communication. It is about reducing isolation and eliminating the awkwardness of having this thing

00:57:01   And I'll have to see whether that plays out in reality, but I think that's definitely the the aim of it

00:57:06   Yeah, I don't want to over index on the use case of using it in an airplane

00:57:12   But it's not it just is so obvious, right?

00:57:16   but you know that it's a place where you if you own one you would I certainly would use it and

00:57:22   The the way they've done the is it called breakthrough?

00:57:27   Where it's like even if you're fully immersed if a if a human approaches you they sort of fade into your view

00:57:35   We did get to demo this

00:57:37   experience in our in our demo where

00:57:40   It's like the the real-life person in the room around you coming at you that the devices cameras

00:57:49   Looking out at the real world around you even if you're not using them to show your world like so you're on an airplane

00:57:55   And you've decided I'd like my virtual

00:57:58   Area to be the peak of Mount Hood because I don't want to look like I'm in a aluminum Boeing 737

00:58:05   I want to look like I'm somewhere nice. Oh

00:58:07   but a real flight attendant is approaching you to see if you would like a beverage or whatever as

00:58:14   They get close to you. The camera will see their face see that they're looking at you

00:58:19   And then start putting that person into you

00:58:22   You'll you'll see that person sort of fade in and closer they get and I think the longer they look at you the more

00:58:29   prominent they'll be they'll just sort of

00:58:31   Sort of appear like a Jedi ghost and life at life-size at the right exact field of view

00:58:37   Where if you lifted the headset up, they would be their face would be exactly where they faded in in your virtual view

00:58:45   That's super useful because and I'm not it you've used VR way more than me. My son has a couple of the headsets

00:58:51   He's used for gaming. I've tried them. I tried him again after trying apples

00:58:56   We have what do we have the HTC Vive I think is the the best one we have

00:59:01   but

00:59:03   knowing from when I've gone into his bedroom when he's playing these games the the ID the immersion and the

00:59:09   Like trying to get him to come down for dinner

00:59:11   It's it's always it's horrible because I know it's gonna shock him and I come up and he won't hear me cuz he's got headphones

00:59:18   On and I'll touch his shoulder and he jumps out of his chair

00:59:20   Yeah, he's neck deep in zombies right and the hair like touching the mother solar, right? And even after the

00:59:28   crueler

00:59:29   Fathers might take advantage of this and try to do it

00:59:37   But no matter how kind you're trying to be there's no easy way to break them through it is it's a it's a legitimate problem

00:59:44   And it's a very and it's it reduces like the big thing

00:59:48   It does is it reduces the amount of time that you can actually use the thing

00:59:51   I think that's the key of it like yeah on a human level

00:59:54   Knowing what's around you is nice and it's a it's good affordance to have etc

01:00:00   But there is a deep animal thing about humans that makes them unwilling to block a major

01:00:07   sensory input for long periods of time and I

01:00:11   believe people who are differently able to have vision issues or

01:00:16   Have impairments to hearing etc will tell you this like they adapt whatever

01:00:22   But if it's something where that they had and then lost

01:00:25   There is no massive

01:00:27   psychological adjustment that didn't go under and if you do cover your eyes and are unable to see the world around you and you're used to

01:00:35   Being sighted then you are going to have some

01:00:39   unease

01:00:40   Right that builds and builds and builds over time until you're like, I gotta get this thing off

01:00:45   I gotta look around me

01:00:46   I gotta like smell and see and dazed and like you do all the things so that I know where I am and what's around me

01:00:51   Etc. So there's that animal brain thing where it's like if you can't see you're gonna die

01:00:55   That's what your deep core is telling you if you can't see you can't see threats

01:01:01   Right and like that is what is the wave that builds and builds until it crests you're like

01:01:06   I gotta take this off and take a break whatever now

01:01:09   I'm setting aside the whole like how long should you be in these things?

01:01:13   medically

01:01:15   Whatever like I'm setting that aside, but in terms of likes periods of sustained work or productivity

01:01:21   They needed to solve that problem very thoroughly if they expect people to go in there and work

01:01:27   Right for an hour or two or three or four plugged in whatever you've got to solve that problem. You cannot

01:01:34   Expect people to go into those worlds and like put up Mount Hood and never see anybody approach or I'll be unable to turn off

01:01:42   Mount Hood when they feel uncomfortable and immediately get relief without having to take the thing off

01:01:46   And you don't have to take it off. You just dial it back you reach up

01:01:51   You turn your dial on the headset and that dial dials back to the opacity so to speak or the the immersiveness

01:01:57   It actually doesn't just do opacity. It shrinks right your worldview down and allows you to see what's really around you

01:02:05   and I think that's that's a really good affordance and it really is a

01:02:08   Big a solve for a big problem that people who haven't used

01:02:13   VR for long periods of time don't realize exists yet

01:02:17   Now people who have anybody who's been using this stuff for a long time will tell you. Oh, yeah, it's a real thing

01:02:23   But people that have it don't know that this problem exists

01:02:26   But Apple does obviously and they've put a lot of work into sort of solving that yeah, and I think it sort of gets to

01:02:33   The heart of what I was trying to get at with the the headset itself

01:02:39   I side-to-side doesn't look that different than other headsets, but Apple's ambition here is so much broader than that. It's almost

01:02:47   Like maybe I don't know

01:02:51   If if the first iPhone had had a physical BlackBerry style keyboard

01:02:57   It it's still the concept of iPhone and how

01:03:04   How much more it was it really was a computer?

01:03:08   Turned into a gadget as opposed to an electronic gadget

01:03:13   That was ever more. So trying to be computery

01:03:17   Which is what blackberries and the phones of that era really were like nobody has any fondness or thinks

01:03:24   Oh, there was lots of legroom left and Nokia's

01:03:28   operating system Symbian, right it wasn't like Symbian had a bright future ahead as a

01:03:33   consumer operating system it

01:03:36   What they're what they're

01:03:39   Envisioning here is a way. It's not just a front end to like a launcher for different experiences

01:03:46   They've they've come up with a concept for the equivalent of like our desktop in the Mac

01:03:51   like here's here's the base level of

01:03:54   Spatial computing and it's like set your environment

01:03:58   show me a list of apps a home screen of apps and

01:04:02   show me how to contact other people and those are the three main things and

01:04:09   Here's the definition of the playing field in front of you

01:04:13   You'll be able to open windows and put them here and it doesn't matter whether it's a web browser or a notes app

01:04:19   Or your email or watching a movie you can put it in a window

01:04:24   And then here's the metaphor for how you'll be able to move them around and rearrange this work

01:04:29   workplace in front of you

01:04:32   really to me and

01:04:35   Everybody you and I and on this on this very podcast many times have talked about our

01:04:41   frustrations with multitasking with iPad OS right with the

01:04:46   Because the iPad and and it it's a very hard problem to solve that they still haven't solved

01:04:51   But basically at one level you just want one app and have it take up the whole screen like it does on the iPhone

01:04:57   And then another level it's like yeah

01:04:59   But I kind of want to do two or three things at once and I splurged on the 12.9 inch iPad Pro

01:05:04   I've got room for it. How do I do it?

01:05:06   But you're still looking maximum looking at this 12.9 inch iPad screen

01:05:10   The the number of people who are connecting their iPad to an external display

01:05:16   It's a great feature and I know some people love it, but very few iPad users work that way

01:05:22   This to me what vision OS it you really have to go to Mac to see

01:05:29   Palette in front of you as big as this can be and this can be so much bigger than even the biggest most

01:05:36   Desktop displays you can put in front of you if you get three Pro display XDRs. It's pretty

01:05:42   Putting aside how many 6k displays your Mac can actually push the pixels to you're just running out of physical desk space

01:05:52   right whereas and and

01:05:55   You have to like physically move right a lot right take the whole take all that in

01:06:00   Yeah, right

01:06:01   Whereas this is letting you have that type of screen real estate in front of you

01:06:06   But it organized in a systemic way like this is how you do it, right?

01:06:11   So that if your idea as a developer is an app

01:06:15   You know that it

01:06:18   That isn't one of the built-in apps from Apple

01:06:21   It's something totally original you you they've already laid this

01:06:25   Idiomatic user interface. This is how your app will fit into the broader world of vision OS and computing

01:06:33   I don't none of the other headsets have anything like that. They're they just don't have the ambition to have

01:06:41   Apps like that like where you'd be multitasking side by side

01:06:46   Yeah, I don't think so. I mean like there's certainly like big screen or another one of the other desktop or

01:06:51   Theater type apps like they they built those paradigms in on an app level right like so you can launch an app

01:06:58   That's for work right and like have virtual desktops right there. There are a few of those out there that'll that work

01:07:03   Okay, I guess like functionally they operate

01:07:06   But they obviously don't work in any real terms because of the resolution of the screens right so that they're hamstrung by the function of it

01:07:14   But at a at a system level they're all built around games

01:07:18   Like all the existing ones are built around the app paradigm, but really games right like let's all be honest

01:07:24   it's like it's the

01:07:26   Apple leaning into the work paradigm as like the the base experience that is expected to be viable and

01:07:34   To create there. There's a term in I don't know if it's I don't know if it's just related to gaming but

01:07:40   Exposed myself in destiny, which is a video game. I play a lot when they have this

01:07:45   this system of elemental powers that you have that you use for your characters and that's like

01:07:50   The normal magic type stuff right like fire and ice etc

01:07:54   But they have these things called verbs and verbs are like hey when you do something when you do X it creates X effect

01:08:00   and so if you have like multiple verbs going at once you've got like

01:08:04   Long term effects and short term effects and these things are working and I think in it's a good try

01:08:08   I don't know. Maybe I'm just like ignorant and maybe this is already there's already a term for this in in OS design or in UI

01:08:15   design, but basically I think Apple is

01:08:18   sketching out a framework of verbs for everyone like if you want X to happen if you want this verb to happen like you want this

01:08:25   Thing to scroll or fling or or land or whatever

01:08:28   them leaning into the work paradigm and like setting everything up in that arena, I think is

01:08:34   Really nice because it does

01:08:38   Establish that they are building an OS

01:08:40   They're building a landscape for you to verb on top of like verb to your heart's content

01:08:46   But like here are the ways you convert and like that idea of the build-out

01:08:51   Starting there and not with like hey, this is a box for apps

01:08:58   Right, like there's a genuine framework here for experiences that encompass the entire thing and you can work within that

01:09:06   Like a big Apple I think the SDK SDK the way it lays it out is like there's three or four different kinds of

01:09:12   experiences that you can or should be building like

01:09:16   Volumes, I can't remember exactly what they are like windows volumes

01:09:21   Spaces and immersive apps I think right and like those verbs

01:09:25   Allow you like multiple pathways to explore like an immersive app might be a game, right?

01:09:30   So that's a verb but a windowed app is like hey, maybe your app has multiple windows that present things in a different way spatially

01:09:37   Maybe they interrelate and work together. They don't but they don't have to be like an app in a box

01:09:43   so I think that's it's a good way to approach it I was just there's a

01:09:47   Relatively new I think opened in last year. It's one of my favorite pizza places here in Philadelphia

01:09:52   Now poly G's slice shop and it's just good. You'd love it

01:09:57   It's just good New York style pizza here in Philly and it's a nice little restaurant - it's good for takeout

01:10:03   They've got a bar. You can just sit there and have beer - but then over in the corner

01:10:07   They have a TV hooked up with an Atari 2600. So you just sit there and play and it just occurred to me. It's like funny

01:10:14   that

01:10:16   There was no obviously operating system, right? It's like right. So how do you switch games?

01:10:21   well

01:10:21   You actually take cartridge and physically put the cartridge in and turn it back on and then you turn it off and just get static

01:10:29   On your TV, right?

01:10:30   take the cartridge out put it back in and

01:10:32   Obviously game consoles have evolved and you don't you don't you don't put cartridges or discs in anymore

01:10:38   you mean you can but there is an operating system on the PlayStation and an Xbox and the switch and

01:10:44   The switch is the one I have they all

01:10:47   Carry that the Sony one feels very Sony the switch one definitely feels Nintendo II, right?

01:10:53   There's a very very Nintendo vibe just to the operating system of the switch and they all have web browsers now

01:11:00   Which is technically you could do work, right? So you can like open a web browser on Xbox or open it on switch

01:11:07   But nobody there's the the system you can't really imagine

01:11:13   What would it be like if I could do my email and my messaging and my email on this?

01:11:17   It just isn't and it it wouldn't be appropriate for it, right?

01:11:22   That's that's not what people buy these things for it's it's not I'm not complaining about it

01:11:27   It's not a limitation, but it's primarily there basically so you can launch a game and the game takes over the screen

01:11:33   Mm-hmm, and that's to me is what the other VR headsets are like they're they're like game consoles in a headset

01:11:40   Where is this there? There's a very ambitious

01:11:43   Vision for any sort of computing that you could do in front of you

01:11:48   It like you said there's verbs for it in in this vision OS

01:11:54   universe in front of you

01:11:56   yeah, you mentioned game consoles and like my mind goes like the most

01:12:00   Interesting. I'm gonna use that term very specifically the most interesting interface work in game consoles

01:12:07   I think has come from the Xbox. I don't know that they've all been successful or usable

01:12:12   Cooper, you know, whatever like they they have missed on execution in a variety of ways on Xbox over the years

01:12:19   But it's certainly the most interesting like they have done

01:12:22   I think the most work and effort to try to think about like

01:12:26   what does it mean to be an operating system that supports a

01:12:31   multi

01:12:34   faceted gamer experience like from social to store to

01:12:38   Multiple games and now as the consoles have gotten more powerful

01:12:42   Multiple applications running at once just suspended like instant switch between games and things like that

01:12:48   but the PlayStation 1 is extremely rudimentary still and I think

01:12:51   Unfortunately, very like archaic and I it's the platform I use the most but I think Xbox has done the best in this

01:12:59   So like if you're looking at like best in class game

01:13:03   documentation not necessarily

01:13:05   Particularly the best period but certainly the most interesting

01:13:10   I think they act the way the Xbox - has evolved over the years has been really interesting to me

01:13:15   And I think they have the best sort of paradigm for like look you're a gamer and you want to play games

01:13:20   But like there's a bunch of other stuff that happens when you play games now

01:13:24   Like you may stream you may get social you make clip you may share the clip

01:13:28   You may get notifications from your friends and have like popovers that like engage you engage with them

01:13:34   It's a totally different experience than popping in the cartridge

01:13:37   And now you're playing the game and pop out the cartridge and I play a different game and like that that idea of this

01:13:42   multi-layered experience I think is the DNA is very strong throughout like the the

01:13:48   the world of

01:13:51   Consoles or world of Xbox but then it's leeching into other arenas and some of this is the windowed paradise

01:13:58   But I think a lot of it is not it's not Windows. It's layers, right?

01:14:01   Right. It's a lot of it's a lot of non modal interfaces that allow you to do multiple things or see multiple things at once

01:14:08   Part of that is just the growing sophistication of computer users

01:14:12   Like just we're used to computers right and like that paradigm and so you're able to layer on

01:14:17   New ones on top of it and I think spatial computing is very interesting to me as a concept because it layers in

01:14:23   multiple

01:14:25   User interfaces or maybe a window and a volumetric display and the thing you're right

01:14:30   They showed an example of taking a 3d model and sending it on a desktop, right?

01:14:34   And then you also have a floating window behind it like that's two different things

01:14:38   Existing in a third thing which is a spatial volume

01:14:42   With and then there's a fourth thing layer behind that which is the world like real life

01:14:48   Right layered behind that and I think it's a very interesting thing that we're seeing develop here

01:14:53   And I think it's like a product of its time

01:14:55   massively because I think if you introduce this kind of thing a few years ago and you're just sort of like

01:15:01   overwhelming people with choice and with with

01:15:04   Option, but I think people are kind of ready for it

01:15:07   And the fact is is that most VR headsets have essentially one modal popover that will will give you like oh you're in a game

01:15:13   You're in an experience. Oh, press a button and now you're looking at the thing, right?

01:15:18   Now you can choose another game or type or do whatever but very actually none of them

01:15:24   Offer this kind of like you're in you're out fluid OS type situation. It's unique

01:15:30   Very much. All right. Let me take a break here and thank our next sponsors are good friends at

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01:17:23   The last the last thing I want to hit on

01:17:27   for sure, we're talking about vision and vision OS and like I I think that this was

01:17:34   Not even in the rumors. I don't and I'm not quite sure that we've really come to grips with it

01:17:40   Yeah, because I think Apple because it's not part of what developers need to know

01:17:45   But the whole r1 chip

01:17:48   Apple doesn't in this whole era of Apple silicon when they come out with these

01:17:53   Chips, they pick a letter and then each generation gets a new integer behind it. They don't do it lightly

01:18:01   Maybe the is it the u chips that are just for location?

01:18:06   I know that it's like the w1 w2 is the wireless chips for air pods there the u chips

01:18:12   I think are the ones for like proximity or something or maybe the one it still gets a digit

01:18:17   I think like a u1. Yeah, I forget but I think that the r1 is a

01:18:23   huge part of this and I

01:18:27   Think and again, they're they're they're not spilling the beans on it because it's sort of it's not even secret per se

01:18:33   But it's just they don't Apple talks about it as a product not

01:18:36   Explaining how it works. But the way I understand it is it's sort of two computers in one

01:18:44   there's

01:18:46   The m2 chip in it is where like the apps that you see run

01:18:51   So you're using Apple notes and Apple mail their apps running on the m2 and it's the m2 that's running

01:18:58   Vision OS which is like a derivative of iOS

01:19:03   just like iPad OS is a version of iOS and tv OS is a derivative of iOS and it shows apps and

01:19:09   But the r1 chip are for I guess reality or real time

01:19:16   They never they never explained they don't even say that the M is what the M is for. I mean and it's good

01:19:22   I mean, I just assume the M is basically for Mac, but they use the M's now

01:19:26   Now in the vision headset, they've been using them in iPad pros. So it's kind of good that they do M is for magnificent job

01:19:33   That's a that's a fill answer

01:19:40   Yeah, I could I could see filler jaws saying that for sure. Yeah, that's maybe it's for just but yeah

01:19:46   I think and then the r1 is for all sensors, right? It's for everything else. It's well and where it

01:19:52   right and it's where this pipeline of

01:19:55   from

01:19:58   light rays hitting the camera or

01:20:00   Cameras on the outside because it's there's so many of the 12 of them

01:20:04   yeah light ray hits the cameras on the outside of the headset and

01:20:09   12 milliseconds later

01:20:12   that image is on the displays in front of your eyes and

01:20:16   That doesn't happen if it's going through the right. It's

01:20:21   Without having custom silicon and a real-time operating system running that part of it

01:20:27   It's it doesn't get to a latency that low and therefore if you just if you have no r1

01:20:32   And you just ran it through the m2 which is doing the other stuff as well. You don't get there

01:20:37   You don't get you don't get latency you you have more more more latency higher latency, whatever the the adjective is a

01:20:44   worse experience

01:20:47   less compelling experience more likelihood of motion sickness for sure and

01:20:52   I think you'd be able to even people who can tolerate it without any kind of motion sickness

01:20:58   less time before they start getting

01:21:03   If not, even a headache just sort of it's like holding your breath sort of like eventually you just sort of need a break

01:21:09   I always say I like and enough watching a 3d feature film to me is like that like it

01:21:15   It I just run out of time

01:21:17   It takes a level of concentration and it's not even that latency just adds to that

01:21:23   There's just a maximum cap on how much time you can spend even in this. Yeah

01:21:28   I'm sure even in vision no matter how good it actually is next year when it ships. I'm sure I would find it more pleasant to

01:21:35   Spend 12 hours in front of a Mac than 12 hours in an vision Pro

01:21:40   Mm-hmm, but there's it to me. This is

01:21:44   It's one of those only Apple

01:21:47   scenarios that that they like to talk about sometimes and sometimes not but I

01:21:53   Don't see how

01:21:57   Facebook to name one

01:21:59   Gets there with their headsets without without having silicon like this like the fact that the quest 3 is running a snapdragon

01:22:06   Whatever. Let's just say it's the best snapdragon. They could possibly get for running that hey, I don't think that chip is any well

01:22:14   I've and again, I know we're talking $3,500 versus something that's gonna be like $500 but right whatever even putting that aside

01:22:22   it's

01:22:24   That's their version of the m2 in the headset

01:22:27   So even if you gave Qualcomm all the credit in a world and said that this snapdragon is peer-for-peer

01:22:33   Just as good as an m2 which it's not but let's just say that it is that still doesn't get that headset

01:22:41   To this sort of experience because it doesn't have anything like the r1 and the real-time operating system

01:22:47   That is putting the camera in front of you with the least latency possible

01:22:53   Yeah, I don't I don't

01:22:55   Know if that's possible to say definitively right like I let's say okay. Let me pause the scenario for you

01:23:02   So let's say took tomorrow which I'm sure happened about a month ago now

01:23:06   Mark Zuckerberg calls a meeting with all of his top hardware people that run the oculus and says

01:23:12   Apple just absolutely crapped all over the capabilities of our top-end device quest pro or the the

01:23:20   Maximum we could have done or ever did with the rift etc. Like what is what would it take for us to ship something like this?

01:23:27   No cost too high right, right? I think that if you posit that scenario

01:23:33   I think there's a possibility that they can get to

01:23:38   The latency not talking about everything here because as we've already acknowledged

01:23:44   This is like a company the top of its game engaging every single one of its neurons on this thing, right?

01:23:50   But let's just talk about like the latency and display resolution. I think they could get there plugged in

01:23:58   With

01:24:01   Not off the shelf but quasi custom in other words they go to arm or somebody or whoever you can say. Hey, could you

01:24:08   Give us a process that does X and they say we can unlock some cores or create some custom instructions and get you that

01:24:15   Get you there with this. I think they could probably get there plugged in

01:24:20   Within maybe a year

01:24:22   two years

01:24:24   Like maybe like this is just completely theoretical based on my rough understanding of like capability

01:24:30   But like here's the thing the state plugged in right?

01:24:34   This is on battery

01:24:35   Which is it really all about efficiency and I think that it's that power per watt thing that makes this possible in a portable device

01:24:42   So I think there is a theoretical possibility that they could say hey, let's take 12

01:24:47   Cameras and five sensors and a bunch of microphones and add another processor right like a whole nother one, which wouldn't be

01:24:55   Customized to the degree the r1 is because the r1 is custom, right?

01:24:59   We don't know exactly how custom because we haven't had a teardown yet, right?

01:25:03   Nobody's got a hold of it and done a x-ray and we'll know eventually right when people do that

01:25:08   But it's custom obviously and it has most likely and enormously

01:25:17   Robust power per watt rating right like it probably does all of this shit extremely cheaply from a power perspective

01:25:24   If you X all of that out of the equation, maybe they could get there but it would be tethered to a computer

01:25:31   It would take a couple of years to get there

01:25:33   It's not really possible for them to like ship anything competitive within

01:25:38   The time frame that Apple is gonna be announcing the next thing or even the next thing after that, right?

01:25:43   So it really is like a byproduct of the cascading

01:25:47   Advancements they built in power efficiency that makes the r1 special

01:25:52   It's not like somebody can't slap another processor into a device like this and get it to do similar tricks. I think is

01:25:59   Once again, I don't know how custom this is. So maybe that's not true. Maybe Apple's done something

01:26:05   We're like, oh crap, like this is all patented. Nobody else could ever do this, etc

01:26:08   But theoretically speaking of the you could put another processor in there in a tethered device

01:26:13   That's not battery-powered and maybe get to a similar capability within a couple of years

01:26:18   but it is the

01:26:19   Advancements that they've made in the power per watt and the efficiency and all of that that enables them do that in a battery-powered

01:26:25   Device at this point in time shipping early next year

01:26:29   That makes this so remarkable right is not the fact that it's like

01:26:35   Mickey creating a wormhole in space or whatever. It's like compounding advantages

01:26:40   That started with the original Apple silicon efforts, you know, and I think years ago

01:26:47   Five six years ago. I mean Rockwell

01:26:50   Dropped some sort of hint on my show that he's been working on something seven eight years

01:26:55   Maybe pretty much even Apple hired him you could like look at his LinkedIn page

01:26:58   I mean and it wasn't like they hired Mike Rockwell and said what do you what are we gonna have this guy do?

01:27:04   Right, exactly. Yeah, and like they knew they needed it before that so they were working on it even before that

01:27:10   Yeah, but I know people who are hired to this project six seven years ago eight years ago right about there

01:27:14   So but not just him either, you know, it's very very clear that they've for many years five six years

01:27:22   seen

01:27:24   highest possible fidelity pass through as

01:27:27   being

01:27:29   table stakes and it doesn't seem

01:27:33   That seems like something that they've been working towards and have invested now years in both the

01:27:39   two operating systems right the the iOS vision OS and the real-time operating system that's running on the r1 and

01:27:47   The silicon and the displays and the cameras right? There's like 12 external cameras

01:27:53   so all of this hardware all of this software just for the pass-through experience and

01:27:59   Pass-through seems like an afterthought on everybody else right like quest to literally just has like black

01:28:05   I think it's like black and white or something. It's it's I know this is pretty rough

01:28:08   It's just for like boundary setting right and boundaries and like just emergency like hey quick

01:28:14   Can I see what's going on in a room around me without taking the headset off?

01:28:17   Whereas in vision OS putting aside the first run calibration thing when you put it on all you see it first

01:28:25   Is just the room around you. Yes. It's literally like the

01:28:29   You know what the empty desktop is on your Mac or your home screen of

01:28:37   Your first home screen of apps on your iPhone

01:28:40   That in vision OS is just wherever you are. It's the world around you

01:28:46   It's just the empty world around you in root full color

01:28:50   With with the thing I can't stop being amazed by the exact field of view of your

01:28:57   headset less eyes

01:28:59   Yeah, there's two there's two allegories that I think it makes sense here one in computing very simply

01:29:06   It's like all of the effort that Apple went through to make scrolling actually scroll

01:29:10   Where is like when you pick up the iPhone for the first time?

01:29:13   I think that's the one thing that everybody's like I gotta have this right once you touch it

01:29:16   You're like Oh crud like holy cow, right, right and of course, that's the enormous amount of effort in a touchscreen that actually functioned correctly

01:29:23   Right in processors that were able to do it in a mobile device on regular battery power blah blah blah blah blah, right?

01:29:30   Like enormous amounts of effort to make the thing work exactly the way you'd expect it

01:29:35   Right, like it's like you don't realize that you were not getting what you actually expected until they did it and they put an enormous amount

01:29:43   Of effort just to make like zero zero, right?

01:29:47   We were so used to zero actually being negative 32 that we didn't realize that we were at negative

01:29:52   So we were like frozen and we're like, oh my god, it's zero like this is what zero feels like, right?

01:29:57   And it's just it's like a it's like a chef who like

01:30:00   takes a food like a really talented chef will take like a zucchini or a blueberry or whatever it is and

01:30:06   Their job is to not

01:30:09   Fuck up the taste of a blueberry

01:30:13   Right, like the most talented chefs realize this like it's not about making a blueberry not taste like a blueberry

01:30:18   It's about making it taste like a platonic ideal of a blueberry, right?

01:30:22   Right, like that's what you want to insulate the best the most talented

01:30:25   People and I work so hard to make this thing feel like what it should feel like like a paint a master painter

01:30:33   Rendering something so perfectly you're like this feels like life

01:30:37   And I think that's where they've gone with this is that they put an enormous amount of effort in

01:30:43   oodles of money and people and and

01:30:46   Mental anxiety and effort etc. It's a bit to just feel like the world like you put it on you like what?

01:30:53   You're like, what's the deal? Right?

01:30:55   Exactly, right so you can just go on Amazon and for seven dollars get a pair of like chemistry lab safety goggles

01:31:03   Right and put it on it

01:31:07   Because you know, you've got some goggles on right there's some yes

01:31:11   I've got goggles on and I see I'm looking through something but what am I seeing?

01:31:15   I'm just seeing the world around me as I was expect to see it

01:31:18   And yes, they've spent like just billions of dollars thousands of engineers

01:31:24   Just to show you what you can see through a $5 pair of safety glasses

01:31:28   Right, right while you're which is like a very Apple thing

01:31:34   You'd write like that's wouldn't see what people say. Oh, that's a very Apple way to do it or that's an Apple thing

01:31:39   this is the

01:31:41   This is it like this is the example of like what an Apple thing is

01:31:45   It's like hey an enormous amount of effort by a lot of really telling the people to make a thing feel like it should feel

01:31:51   That's it. Right and and so it gets to like and I still haven't zinged them about it. I'm going to this week

01:31:58   I bet I'm already like weeks late, but Zuckerberg just comments after the keynote leaked and you know

01:32:03   What's he gonna say? I and some to some degree. I'm sympathetic cuz what? Mm-hmm. Did you watch the blackberry movie?

01:32:10   I haven't seen it yet. It's good. I like you though. I think I think everybody you'll like it

01:32:15   It's not great, but it's as good as it should be right. Okay. I can't see how they could like a blackberry, right?

01:32:20   Yeah, exactly. The one thing I did mild spoiler, but obviously it ends with after the the iPhones come out. They don't

01:32:28   Show what's rumored there were reports that like the day or two after the iPhone announcement that the top people

01:32:35   engineers at at rim

01:32:37   Thought that Apple might have faked some of it

01:32:40   They're like this because you can't they can't do that

01:32:42   So they must they were like, but it doesn't seem like Apple to fake something and they say they're selling it in six months

01:32:48   But otherwise this doesn't make it doesn't compute that right that they're saying that their phone can do this. I

01:32:53   I kind of feel I

01:32:57   Don't I don't think Zuckerberg had that reaction

01:33:00   I don't feel like there's that just shows that to me if that's true that the rim people again

01:33:05   That's not in a movie. But if it's true that Mike Lazaridis or I

01:33:08   Repenances her name really just couldn't even believe it was true shows how far behind they were

01:33:13   But it's believable in hindsight because they really were that far behind. I don't think Zuckerberg

01:33:18   Misses what Apple showed I think he gets it but his comments

01:33:24   About like the social aspects for it his comments to to rally the troops were basically

01:33:29   Everything Apple showed were people all by themselves doing things by themselves

01:33:33   that's not my vision for the future of this my vision is social and

01:33:38   We know that they use they renamed the company meta

01:33:41   you know and their vision of the metaverse is that you put the headset on and then you go to have a meeting and

01:33:47   You're in a virtual place as an avatar and you see these other people

01:33:53   All in a virtual place like you're playing playing a game a video game where the game is a meeting

01:34:00   Alright, man, right, but but that's and whereas the Apple but Apple's vision for how you'll socialize

01:34:07   With the headset is the actual socializing with the actual people around you and it's the actual room around you

01:34:15   And it is so in some sense. I I think I think Apple's probably right and Zuckerberg is very wrong

01:34:23   But he he did put his finger on the key difference in where they see it going is is your socialization

01:34:29   While you're doing this primarily still like interacting with the actual people

01:34:33   Who you could actually reach out and physically actually touch and the actual room you're actually in or is it about an entirely virtual?

01:34:41   environment and entirely virtual

01:34:44   Renderings of people who might be all around the world. I mean and

01:34:51   We were very limited in the demo we got with FaceTime with the personas

01:34:56   We got to speak to one person from Apple and and I think as it stands right now

01:35:02   I think they're only saying it's one at a time like you couldn't get me and you and

01:35:08   Joanna Stern in a three-way conversation as the software exists today

01:35:14   But they appear in a window, you know, and they are 3d. It's not just a picture of them

01:35:21   It's kind of 3d

01:35:23   but it's most definitely in a window and

01:35:26   Definitely not pretending like that person is virtually in front of you

01:35:30   Which is the sort of metaverse idea of how you would interact with somebody?

01:35:34   It's very very different at a at a very just first level like a fork in the road like oh

01:35:41   meta

01:35:43   Facebook has spent years down this path of being completely virtual whereas apples very top-level takeaway is

01:35:51   That they're not going to fake

01:35:53   Put you in front of a person at all

01:35:56   Yeah, I mean the the FaceTime thing would be the exception if you're face timing somebody else with the thing on obviously they're producing like this

01:36:04   Virtual avatar right? Yeah, but not but not pretending that it's the person in front of no, right?

01:36:09   Yeah, and only their face like, you know, like it's a very much like oh, this is a call, right? Right

01:36:14   I think that you're right that the paradigm that they're presenting is different

01:36:17   I don't know which one which one will prove out to be completely right or wrong or whatever

01:36:21   but I think you're dead on that like they have two very divergent visions for this like I

01:36:26   Think the quest vision is presenting the people being present in the room

01:36:33   Virtually that are somewhere else is the important thing and apples vision of it is the work that is being done is presented for dress

01:36:42   And like that that it's like the differentiating factor there to me

01:36:45   It's like metas put a lot of emphasis on like oh if you put the people in the room and then you layer the work

01:36:51   On top like things will get done whereas apples likes saying hey if the people are in the room with you

01:36:56   You're all still able to work together and that's great. But if they are virtual it's the work that's being done

01:37:01   That's important and you can see each other working in various representations

01:37:06   Like we saw one example with their collaborative app, which I always forget the name of freestyle freestyle

01:37:12   Yeah, free hand was the illustrator rival. Yeah, you're right. You're right

01:37:16   But the the freestyle application show very for a free form free form thinking I do it for dinner

01:37:22   But yeah, the you can edit it in making up some like I remember but the the you see the various floating icons, right?

01:37:29   Right, that's like a figma style collaborative thing that we've seen many times and apples like look. This is fine

01:37:36   Well

01:37:36   You see that people are working on various

01:37:38   Elements of this virtually and you're comfortable that they are working on it together and you're talking perhaps or whatever

01:37:44   But you don't need like their bodies

01:37:47   Virtually in the space with you. It's the work that's being done collaboratively. That's the center stage. Yeah

01:37:54   It's very very different and it's gonna be interesting to see how they play out

01:37:58   I mean and I I do think apples right but I mean I

01:38:03   Because this is all uncharted territory and things seldom play out as designed once reality hits, you know

01:38:10   I think I should for you this I don't know how I feel about this

01:38:13   How much of all of this effort do you think stems from the fact that?

01:38:19   Apple

01:38:21   emphasizes

01:38:22   physical

01:38:23   co-working

01:38:24   Like is this a byproduct of their psychology in the way that they work as a company like that they emphasize physical in office

01:38:32   habitation

01:38:34   maybe and and I know that this whole issue of

01:38:37   remote work and work from home and Apple in particular is is become political it to some degree and people have very strong opinions, but

01:38:45   and I know people sometimes when I

01:38:49   Speak very favorably of in-person work people

01:38:55   people who feel is that otherwise

01:38:59   Well, well they they point out that I've carved out an entire career

01:39:04   That's fair right where I I you know my you know famous I've talked about it my work life

01:39:13   Hardly changed during kovat. I mean, yeah

01:39:16   It's I've I mean mine too where we're so remote that the all the remote debate was basically

01:39:21   Mute for us as a cut but it's certainly a topic obviously for a lot of but I but on the other hand

01:39:27   I don't have collaborators, right? I mean that's part of the thing

01:39:30   I mean and I've done some things over the years that are collaborative Vesper

01:39:34   I did with Brent Simmons and and Dave Whiskus and Dave and I designed the whole thing together over iMessage

01:39:41   So, I mean I've done you know, I like everything I don't have a black or a white view on

01:39:45   Remote work. It's very very gray and it depends but I where I get and I could envision some alternate world where I do work

01:39:55   Somewhere like at Apple or somewhere else where it's a team of people and I have in the past worked with people

01:40:00   I have still have very fond memories

01:40:02   from

01:40:04   25 years ago at the student newspaper 30 years ago

01:40:07   I guess there's a point at the student newspaper at Drexel where I can't even imagine

01:40:11   Not being in a newsroom full of people on production night when the papers coming out the next day

01:40:16   It not just for efficiency not just because of the certainly the tools the online tools for working remotely didn't exist in the 90s

01:40:25   but there's there is a humanity to it and

01:40:28   it is

01:40:31   and I think that

01:40:33   Apple both as an institution is

01:40:35   built up around that to some to a large degree where they've attracted people and it's because it's the culture that

01:40:45   real human interactions with your colleagues across disciplines and within your discipline are a

01:40:53   bigger deal at Apple than at some of their competitors and at other companies who do similar things and

01:40:59   Then I think it does sort of spill out into their vision of the world

01:41:04   I think that's a very keen question from you and Facebook's going through the same thing where I know that they've sort of dialed back to

01:41:11   the concerns of or complaints of some of their employees on some of their remote work policy

01:41:17   but clearly their vision for the metaverse is

01:41:22   Very very much it doesn't matter where you are

01:41:25   Right. So I think that's a keen question. I think at a fundamental level Apple the people at Apple

01:41:31   believe that it matters that you're

01:41:34   physically with people at times not that you can't do things without it, but that

01:41:39   It's different and irreplaceable and therefore not let's not even pretend that we can replace it by putting on a goggle

01:41:45   Yeah, yeah, I know. I don't know either. You know, I don't know what the answer to that's why I asked

01:41:50   I don't think I mean that it's very interesting that it's something that they it's not even like they have a rudimentary

01:41:56   Version of it that they showed they have nothing in the whole vision OS

01:42:01   Thing the concept they've shown that simulates you as an avatar with an avatar of another person in front of you

01:42:09   Yeah, like a holistic telepresence type. No, they have no they just totally as advanced

01:42:15   I wonder if you could by the way, John, I wonder if you could do this easily not easily

01:42:19   I wonder if you could do this. I don't want to undermine the effort but as a developer you could probably

01:42:24   Utilize the camera because oh, I think you cause we've it

01:42:28   yeah, as we've already seen you could say hey set the camera on a desk and

01:42:33   Stand ten feet away from it

01:42:36   Will ding you will ping you on your iPhone from our app when you're the right distance away

01:42:40   We'll scan you and then in our app, which is a virtual meeting environment

01:42:46   You'll be represented as your full body plus a detailed facial skin

01:42:50   Provided by the OS. Yeah, I actually don't know in the SDK

01:42:54   I think we'll provide that to apps

01:42:56   But I'm sure the app could do it itself if you well and at the very least you could have a virtual avatar like your emoji

01:43:03   You know to me. Yeah. Yeah, like a faux a faux one, right? Right. Yeah, that's the expected emoji

01:43:07   Yeah, that's why when we got the full facial skin, I was like, oh wow

01:43:11   I expected the my avatar that I built in I miss it, right? But yeah, yeah interesting

01:43:16   All right. Let me take a break here and thank our fourth and final sponsor of the show our good friends at collide

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01:44:57   calm slash the talk

01:45:02   Show I was thinking about it while I was doing the collide read there. I

01:45:06   Did I here see here's what I think and Ben Thompson and I have talked about this on dithering quite a bit as to whether

01:45:14   Facebook's entire we want to do our own hardware is ill-advised or not, right?

01:45:21   And I think I believe more you don't have to read between the lines. I mean basically

01:45:24   Zuckerberg has been very clear. He's very frustrated

01:45:28   Ever since they missed out on mobile. He's seen the ways that Google and Apple in their own ways benefit from

01:45:35   Controlling their own mobile platforms and Facebook missed out on they certainly tried they had the Facebook phone

01:45:41   Gave up on it wisely when they realized it was too little too late and the whole reason that they've gotten into this in bot

01:45:48   Oculus was hey, this might be the next thing we should own it

01:45:52   It would be much better for us to own the platform or one of the platforms of the genre

01:45:58   Then not and so here they are

01:46:01   but at the same time

01:46:04   Apple's fundamental business is making and selling products like this

01:46:09   So for example Apple doesn't have many apps for Android they do famously have Apple music and otherwise though

01:46:15   it's stuff like the the tracker detection app for for the

01:46:21   Airtags and I'm and a migration tool for moving from Android to iPhone

01:46:27   They don't make a lot of software for other companies products, and I don't think they should it's not really up their alley

01:46:33   That gets the closest they get to that is with the TV stuff where they've started years ago started working to get Apple TV built

01:46:42   Into the smart TV sets and stuff like that

01:46:44   Facebook to me is more like Microsoft where they're still primarily a software company

01:46:50   And it obviously a different domain than Microsoft

01:46:53   But I think it would be in Facebook's interest to be the company to make that app for vision OS

01:46:58   Right so that you could have the vision if you're if you're if your headset isn't metas

01:47:03   It's apples

01:47:05   You can still participate in the meetings in their metaverse if your colleagues are using the quest 3 or the quest Pro

01:47:12   I think they should be the company to make that app where you've got the metaverse

01:47:18   Virtual avatars in front of you app. Yeah

01:47:20   It seems obvious maybe as long as there are no technical

01:47:25   Barriers that I don't know about right it seems obvious. I think it would absolutely make sense for them

01:47:31   It is in their area of expertise. I mean they've spent billions of dollars trying to make it work

01:47:35   So seems like they would be capable of doing it. It would absolutely fly in the face of like

01:47:42   Mmm, the any of the quest devices as a colocation work device, but maybe they don't need to be like that

01:47:49   They certainly haven't needed to be like that so far

01:47:51   Because none of that works

01:47:52   no that sells quest devices right all of those all their experimentation with colocation and and

01:47:58   virtual work and all this stuff none of that sells quests what sells quests is beat saber and and

01:48:04   Vacation simulator and whatever else right like so right. Maybe it doesn't need to be that maybe it needs to be

01:48:12   A game console until they catch up to the place where they can render texts

01:48:17   And be a work device in a couple of years and until then I think it makes a lot of sense for them to say

01:48:23   Meta has spent an enormous amount of time

01:48:26   Developing this and working on human interaction over in a virtual space and we're gonna be there on vision problem day one

01:48:32   Whatever that might require some sort of patching up there a bit of that relationship or at least a swallowing of some sort of pride

01:48:39   But I think it would actually be quite good for them

01:48:42   Your comment about rendering text reminded me. I'm so glad you said that and I know Apple emphasized it multiple times

01:48:50   I know as far as I could tell every single person who took the got the demo and wrote about it or youtubed about it

01:48:56   mentioned

01:48:58   That yeah text was very readable in the vision OS you could definitely read you can definitely imagine

01:49:04   Reading articles and stuff or doing your email and all the things you'd want to do that would involve reading or writing text

01:49:12   that they definitely the screen resolutions there I

01:49:15   Wish that we had gotten to try the Mac right debt virtual. I don't think that was ready. We didn't I don't think that was done

01:49:23   Well, and I'm well, I don't know if it's done, but I just don't I don't think it was demo ready, right?

01:49:29   Yeah, I think that's clearly why they didn't do it. I know from talking to Rockwell offstage

01:49:34   It's definitely there and they're used people are you there?

01:49:37   People are using it and they people are using it and loving it on the on the team as they say

01:49:43   But I'm curious to when the reason I wish I'd experienced it now is I'm curious

01:49:50   How big it looks in front of you because the one thing I noticed from my time that precious precious 30s

01:49:58   30-minute demo is

01:50:01   It seems to me from my memory of the experience and looking also at these screenshots now from developers

01:50:08   playing with the vision OS SDK

01:50:11   that the virtual screens in front of you are

01:50:15   Further away than arms like

01:50:20   My default you can move them closer

01:50:23   But for me personally, it's just and I've played around with it as my eyes have changed in recent years

01:50:29   And I've gone through other problems, but for the most part

01:50:32   Especially like when I'm in front of my cinema or my studio display

01:50:36   I sit almost exactly arms length in front of the display

01:50:41   My comfortable distance is a like about about one inch shorter than if I just put my arms straight out in front of me

01:50:48   Whereas the windows I was looking at in vision OS like looking at the photos app and looking at whatever Safari and whatever else

01:50:55   they let us play with they seem to be more like TV distance or maybe like

01:51:01   yeah, or like two arms lengths in front of me and

01:51:06   I wouldn't be able to use my studio display or a pro display XDR at

01:51:13   Six feet in front of me because everything would look too small

01:51:18   But like the windows they well then how does it work in vision?

01:51:22   They just make everything so arms everything like but it's everything is like 20 inches

01:51:26   Exactly, so that's what I'm curious about with the Mac thing. It's like okay. They're saying it's a 4k display

01:51:33   It might be more than 4k pixels

01:51:36   But it's probably like I think I as I expect it'll be it'll be it won't be like having a 32 inch

01:51:45   Pro display XDR in front of you. It's gonna be like having a 60 inch Pro display XDR

01:51:51   Further

01:51:52   In front of you than you would normally sit and everything. Yeah, that's interesting

01:51:56   I mean, um, it's either that or they they make it so that it appears to arms lengths away

01:52:01   We're arms like than a half away from you. Yeah, right. It just seems like that's the natural

01:52:07   that that's the

01:52:10   No pun intended the vision for vision OS that you you'll have

01:52:14   virtual

01:52:16   Much bigger displays than you would ever put

01:52:19   Two feet in front of you, but because they're simulating it five or six feet in front of you

01:52:25   you can have four of them and they're all like 50 inches in size and

01:52:29   it doesn't even matter if you're in a tiny little dorm room or on a

01:52:35   totally cramped coach seat in an airplane or on a train it you could just

01:52:41   present them in a virtual world in front of you and you just

01:52:45   Spread out and you just look at these big big screens

01:52:50   Further away from you in a way that wouldn't even make sense in the real world

01:52:54   You wouldn't want to have 60 inch displays in front of you ironically because a 72 inch TV actually renders text relatively poorly in

01:53:02   Comparison. Yeah, like even your TV

01:53:05   Right. Congratulations. If you have like an 8k TV or something, but like most of us that's not gonna be as good

01:53:11   And there's two physics things that I think come into play here one is the parallax

01:53:17   the degree of parallax between having four 60 inch displays out there in space a

01:53:24   virtual

01:53:25   Ten feet from you or 12 feet from you versus having three pro XDR displays at arm's length from you

01:53:33   If if you people were talking a video but people are gonna be able to see this

01:53:37   But like if you're at a desk and you're changing from one display to another that's a significant motility of your head and shoulders

01:53:44   To like move back and forth or swiveling your chair or whatever and all of that is like

01:53:49   Cognitive load to like find your place on the screen move your cursor to it

01:53:55   Find where you're working click on it and start working right like that's actually a physics thing

01:54:00   So when they're further out from you

01:54:01   You're moving only a few degrees to your eyes perhaps only or maybe your head only a few degrees to go from one

01:54:09   60 inch to 70 inch display to another which is

01:54:13   Really nice because it lowers fatigue overall and it can make moving from one thing to another quicker

01:54:18   Obviously that's coupled with the eye tracking and their ability to sense your focus your area of focus

01:54:24   And then the second bit of physics is the hand gesture stuff, right?

01:54:28   Because you don't have to move your hands out in space to interact with these things

01:54:34   You can leave it laying in your lap because of the downward facing cameras

01:54:37   They have that that keep track of your hands other very high-resolution ones

01:54:41   They keep track of your hands because if you've used any gesture

01:54:44   Tracking or gesture gesture forward interfaces wherever you want to call it like on on the quests or on other VR headsets

01:54:52   Because of the way the cameras are situated you have to be up and out with your arms and that's exhausting

01:54:57   Well, you only want to do it for a few minutes then you're like it is boring. Yeah, this sucks

01:55:00   I don't want to do this. Give me my controller right and so like those two things I think are gonna make you

01:55:06   They're gonna lower your fatigue and increase your ability to like work across these large multiple screens

01:55:12   For longer periods of time and with relative ease whereas I think there would be a lot of concern if you're like

01:55:18   Hey you these things are an arm's length from you

01:55:21   So you're having to rotate in space like you're you're physically turning your body like a top to look at these things

01:55:27   Or you're having to go up and out touch them physically out in space with your hands

01:55:32   Both of those things would be big downsides which have been mitigated by the way that they're executing this

01:55:37   Yeah, and I spoke to a friend at Apple just like most people at Apple had no idea

01:55:43   Until after the keynote that he'd been working on this project to some degree for a while and

01:55:51   It he said that the breakthrough for him was that when he was using it

01:55:56   His inclination was to group multiple windows closer to the center smaller windows closer to the center and without really thinking about it

01:56:04   Just sort of organizing

01:56:06   his his vision OS windows sort of like they were on a

01:56:10   Big Mac screen right in front of it and one of his colleagues said no

01:56:15   no, you're just spread out more make everything bigger push it out a little bit more and fan it out in front of you and

01:56:21   That's what they demoed for us in the end

01:56:25   He was like God and once it it's not like working on a screen or two screens in front of you at all

01:56:31   you just

01:56:33   you had just have to think bigger physically and

01:56:35   It by making the windows bigger and pushing them out a little

01:56:41   You don't actually have to turn that much right which is what you're saying like, right?

01:56:45   If they're if they're actually like arms length in front of you, like you're in a cockpit

01:56:49   You're doing you're swiveling left swiveling, right?

01:56:52   Whereas this you can have an array of four windows and you don't even have to move that much because they're so big and so far

01:56:58   Oh fanned out that's one of you. Yeah, it's just it just doesn't map

01:57:03   It just doesn't map to the way that we've spent our lives working with everything on actual screens in front of us

01:57:10   And I guess we could do a speed run through the rest of WWDC but that's

01:57:15   in hindsight

01:57:18   The only other thing I just say without I do have a review, you know

01:57:22   I didn't write a review of it because there's hardly anything to say I have the 15-inch MacBook Air

01:57:26   Which is the most obvious product that Apple didn't hear to Ford didn't make which is a?

01:57:33   Consumer price laptop with a bigger screen and it does the reason it popped into my head here is because it does fit with this

01:57:39   idea of hey putting your

01:57:41   Apps in bigger stuff in front of you is good

01:57:44   And people like it

01:57:47   Just reminds me of that but going from 13 inches to 15 inches for a laptop

01:57:52   It's like I pity the poor 15-inch MacBook Air because people have wanted

01:57:56   something like this for 20 years from Apple a consumer price big-screen laptop and it's gone from

01:58:02   13 to 15 inches which otherwise sounds great except it was announced alongside this thing that lets you put

01:58:10   For 50-inch windows. Yeah

01:58:12   Markets are probably slightly different for them for now. But yeah, it's yeah, it's nice computer

01:58:18   I mean, it's so it's so funny because it's like oh, yeah m2 processor

01:58:22   Probably more powerful than any person will ever need in there in this lifetime

01:58:27   In the next 10 years and it's got 15 inches on it and it's like it's a that's actually a really solid

01:58:33   ID as well like this particular

01:58:37   Revision of the air's design is good. Like it's a nice compromise between something that's like

01:58:42   this like

01:58:45   Pizzazz II and something that's actually usable

01:58:48   Like the hard the sharp edge air was never my favorite as far as my wrist wins and all that stuff

01:58:53   Like they've just done a really nice. Yeah with it. It's just a really really really good computer

01:58:57   It's like somebody's like, oh I need a MacBook. I don't I don't know what to buy as well

01:59:01   I know what you buy this is what you buy. I think it's gonna be a default for a lot of people

01:59:05   And it's it really is just wild to me that

01:59:09   Until as of a month ago if you wanted something with a bigger screen

01:59:14   Than 14 inches it you're looking at

01:59:18   2499 for the base model 16 inch MacBook Pro and now they've got one for 1299

01:59:24   which almost everybody I know would prefer because

01:59:30   It's thinner and lighter and there's absolutely nothing that the 16 inch MacBook Pro does that most people would even notice

01:59:38   Yes, it has better speakers if you're using your MacBook speakers. Yes. That's a big difference

01:59:43   Yes, the screen is brighter

01:59:44   but in terms of the things most people would do and appreciate there's there's very little and it's

01:59:49   almost half the price

01:59:52   Yeah

01:59:54   Dude, I mean it it's just none of the fans I guess like it's a problem, but it's a good problem. No, but I don't

02:00:01   I mean

02:00:02   They can't really delay this stuff. They're gonna just launch it into the in the atmosphere. I think it when the dust settles though. I

02:00:09   It's obviously Apple doesn't announce

02:00:11   This deep of a segmentation on what they sold and max wise but a lot of analysts will do run the numbers and kind of give

02:00:18   Us estimates and I'm very interested to see what those estimates are and I I would guess it'd be high on how many of those

02:00:24   They're gonna sell because it's only a couple hundred bucks more than the smaller screen one

02:00:27   It's like if you're using an external monitor and this is really just a every once a while

02:00:31   I'm gonna take it portable, but most of the time it's gonna sit on my desk thing

02:00:34   Sure by the smaller one

02:00:35   But if you're in any way superform using this as your only computer that you're taking everywhere

02:00:40   Couple hundred bucks gets you 15 inches do it. That's easy

02:00:44   And it's spec spec for spec with the same GPU and the same RAM

02:00:50   It's that's only $100 difference from the 13-inch MacBook Air because the lowest price not counting the 999

02:00:57   M1 MacBook Air but the lowest price to m2 MacBook Air comes with the part bin GPU

02:01:04   I forget how many quits like eight cores instead of ten or something like that again

02:01:08   Which again most people aren't going to notice but really spec for spec only $100 difference

02:01:13   I I do wonder whether it's quint. I'm wondering curious if you if it's coincidence that

02:01:18   It

02:01:20   Starting last fall is when they also added the

02:01:24   big screen

02:01:26   iPhone 14 that's not a pro right and

02:01:29   It's like I've been writing all year like and some people have said oh it seems like the for the

02:01:36   14 max or whatever or no plus they call it right the iPhone 14 plus isn't selling that great to me

02:01:44   that that product is about years from now like next year when the iPhone 15 comes out and the 14 plus is still there and

02:01:52   keeps going down in price so that

02:01:54   Two years from now when somebody is shopping for an iPhone, but they only want to spend 600 bucks

02:02:00   they could get a plus-sized iPhone and

02:02:02   Heretofore Apple didn't have big-screen phones except at the highest end prices

02:02:09   Didn't have big-screen laptops except at the pro prices and now they're like, okay fine

02:02:14   We'll send will sell big-screen laptops and iPhones at consumer prices

02:02:19   But by the way, all of these screens are tiny

02:02:22   compared to

02:02:24   The expanse that you can get in a vision Pro. I don't know that it's completely coincidental like if vision

02:02:30   Were still two years away would they have already started expanding these other devices maybe but you see you're you're saying that kind of

02:02:39   entering into like a

02:02:41   Size agnostic kind of universe where it's like, oh, what's an inch? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah

02:02:47   Yeah, that's a good way to put it right that if we're why even quibble about 13 verse 15 versus 16 inch displays anymore

02:02:55   Forget about it

02:02:56   We can get we've got this other product that can show you a movie on a 60 inch display or a 60 foot display

02:03:02   Right a 60 foot display like you're in a real

02:03:06   Between between friends when that's the scale. Yeah

02:03:09   Right. Hmm

02:03:12   Well, anyway, I just call it a wrap that it's always good to talk to you is good to see you

02:03:17   Yeah, the video is different and I like it's it's nice. I have to keep remembering to respond with my voice though

02:03:23   Yeah, but I'm Italian so my instinct I know it's gonna be like the gestures. I

02:03:28   Know I know I might have I did you know, it's inexorably everything moves to YouTube

02:03:36   Yeah, this is YouTube and I can yeah, I can use hand gestures, but I do find myself doing that

02:03:41   Let me thank our sponsors can't forget them our good friends at back blaze where you can get online backup for just seven bucks per Mac

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02:04:06   Matthew panzerino editor-in-chief of tech crunch and personality extraordinaire on Twitter. Well, thank you very much

02:04:12   I appreciate it always fun to talk. I mean, this is exciting stuff. I'm really really glad they did this

02:04:17   It's it's been a long time coming and I'm anxious to see where it goes from here. But yeah, I'm always fun to chat

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