467: The Least Important Mac


00:00:00   [Intro]

00:00:09   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 467. Today's show is brought to you by Express,

00:00:16   VPN, and Fitbot. My name is Mike Hurley, I'm joined by Jason Snow. Hi, Jason Snow.

00:00:21   Hi, Mike Hurley. It's good to be here. As always, I have a snow talk question for you. It comes from

00:00:26   John. John wants to know, "Jason, how long have you enjoyed football, and when did you realize or

00:00:31   decide you were an Arsenal fan?" You know, in our document it says football/soccer and you decided not to.

00:00:37   I wouldn't allow myself to say it. I figured you would do it, like you just did, when I decided not to do it.

00:00:41   A word from England, short for association football. Doesn't make a difference to me.

00:00:46   Therefore, a perfectly valid word that you could use to describe this sport. Yep, decided not to.

00:00:51   Un-American football. The answer is lost in the midst of time, but I would say... Well, you know, Jason,

00:00:58   Upgrade Plus listeners from last week will know that I'm an American citizen now.

00:01:01   Yes, well, as bestowed upon by me. Uh-huh, so go to getupgreatplus.com. I could tell you that

00:01:09   the... So Nick Hornby is one of my favorite writers. He wrote High Fidelity, but he's not a one-hit

00:01:17   wonder. He's written lots of other great books, including Fever Pitch, a... Yes. Basically, a non-fiction...

00:01:27   It's like an autobiography. It is, I'm sure I've mentioned it here before, it is the single best

00:01:31   explanation of the psychology of a sports fan I think you'll ever read. It's a wonderful book.

00:01:38   Nick Hornby is an obsessed Arsenal fan, and the book, which is the most unlikely book to have ever

00:01:46   been made into a movie, it's been made into two? What? The American version is about the Boston Red Sox,

00:01:54   but the book is great, and he's an Arsenal fan, and I was listening... You know, I'm reading along,

00:02:04   and I'm just like, "Oh, this is very interesting. I'm learning things about soccer." And then, if I'm

00:02:09   going to be exposed to the Premier League at that point, which was coming on TV more and more in the

00:02:14   US in the late 20... Late 2000s, I want to say? Mid to late 2000s, more and more on TV? Well,

00:02:22   one team I've heard about, and I know some of their history, and I know about their long-suffering fans,

00:02:28   so I started to pay attention to Arsenal. That's the only reason. So it's Nick... Blame Nick Hornby.

00:02:35   He lives in North London. I've walked past his house. My friend Simon lives right across the

00:02:40   street from the Arsenal stadium, and right around the block from Nick Hornby's house. When I walked

00:02:46   by, somebody was delivering a pizza. I guess Nick Hornby wanted a pizza. Anyway, he's a great writer.

00:02:50   His fiction is amazing. His music essays are great, and Fever Pitch is a wonderful book. So really,

00:02:57   that was it. It's Nick Hornby's fault that I'm a fan of Arsenal, which I came in right after they

00:03:02   were incredibly successful, and have watched them, you know, finish various places between second and

00:03:09   eighth over the course of 15 years. But they had a great season this season. I loved it. I had a good

00:03:16   time. In the... in the... they famously, for those who don't care about sports, they famously led

00:03:21   the longest... led the league for the longest of any team to ever not win the league. But

00:03:25   Manchester City was behind them the whole time, and everybody knew what was going to happen,

00:03:29   and then it happened, because everybody knew Manchester City was going to win, because they're

00:03:34   a team made up entirely of Frankenstein monsters. And it was a great season, and it was a fun ride,

00:03:39   because I think in the end, sport is entertainment. And people who get really angry about their team

00:03:46   not winning the championship every year, I think, are deeply misguided, and that what you need to do

00:03:50   is have a little bit of perspective. Like my team and your team, Mike, the San Francisco Giants

00:03:55   baseball team. They won 107 games a couple years ago, which is... that's a lot, Mike. That's a very

00:04:01   lot. And they won their division, and then they lost in the playoffs. And you know what? Losing

00:04:04   the playoffs was sad, but it doesn't take away from what a wonderful year that was. That was the

00:04:08   most fun full-on baseball season I'd had in a long time. And I'm just looking to be entertained. I

00:04:14   don't have to become a monster who's like, "If they didn't win everything, it's a failure." It's like,

00:04:18   Arsenal had a great year too. So anyway, long story short, blame Nick Hornby, or order a pizza

00:04:25   and have it sent to his house. It's like, you know, I would give you on the sport thing, I'm a

00:04:29   Mercedes fan, I'm a McLaren fan, Formula One, mostly Mercedes. It's tough times to be a Mercedes fan.

00:04:35   You know, things are rough right now. I had a moment there where I was wondering why you liked

00:04:39   German cars. Well, they're British teams. But that's not what you mean. You meant Formula One.

00:04:45   Okay. And so I'm a Mercedes fan. I got there. And it's a tough time to be a Mercedes fan,

00:04:50   but that's just how it is. And now I will revel in when they can just get on the podium, or they can

00:04:54   get even midway. It's like, "Oh, this is fantastic. This is exciting to me as when they would win." So

00:04:59   that's sport. Sport is entertainment, and nothing is guaranteed. You and Andina and

00:05:05   Lauren and I went to a Giants game. Yes. When you were out here. And we had a great time. And

00:05:09   you guys are now Giants fans. Go Giants. We saw a great game. The Giants scored like 13 runs. There

00:05:14   was a splash hit. It was amazing. The next game we went to, Lauren and I went on the 4th of July.

00:05:19   It was a terrible game. The Giants got like a couple of hits. The pitcher on the other team

00:05:28   basically pitched the entire game and shut out the Giants. And it was awful. And then we just went

00:05:34   yesterday, and it was 1-0, and the Giants won. And they hit a home run, and their best pitcher

00:05:39   pitched his best game maybe of his career. And it was very exciting. The fact is, buying a ticket

00:05:44   and going, you never know what you're going to get. Sometimes it's good. Sometimes it's bad.

00:05:47   If you want a guaranteed good time, don't go to sports.

00:05:53   If you would like to send in a question for us to open a future episode of the show,

00:05:58   just go to upgradefeedback.com and send in a Snell Talk question of your own right there.

00:06:03   We have some follow up, Chase and Snell.

00:06:05   First comes from Steve today who writes in to say,

00:06:09   "Regarding fitness apps on the Vision Pro, do you think that only a restricted set of kinds

00:06:14   of exercises could be approved via App Store review, or do you think that any common VR

00:06:21   fitness app would be? For example, something like stationary biking or stretching could be okay,

00:06:26   but what about something more active like boxing? I see Apple being concerned about videos or

00:06:32   reports of the headset flying off and breaking, then people seeking replacements is something

00:06:36   that is highly expensive and highly constrained."

00:06:39   I don't know what to say to this. What Apple does, it's like asking me what the App Store

00:06:46   rules are going to be.

00:06:47   What do you think though? Do you think that there could be something around

00:06:51   restrictions on the types of exercises?

00:06:53   Apple could do whatever they want. I think it's possible that Apple will say that certain kinds

00:07:00   of movements are not advised and if they do that, then they would reject apps that try to do those

00:07:06   things. It's possible. It's possible that they won't care. We'll see. The confabulating is sort

00:07:18   of like videos of the headset flying off and breaking, well that's going to happen anyway.

00:07:25   If they were really concerned, and honestly, I don't think it saves them to reject an app that

00:07:30   would have helped the headset fly off and break because if Apple's headsets are flying off and

00:07:34   breaking, it's always going to be Apple's fault. It's always going to be Apple's fault.

00:07:38   Apple needs to make sure that that doesn't happen regardless because of moving things around.

00:07:48   I am not willing to go down the path of a hypothetical where Apple ends up in a situation

00:07:54   where everybody's downloading this app that is making people make motions that break the headset.

00:08:00   Oh no, what do we do? I don't know. That seems unlikely. I think it is possible that there will

00:08:05   be certain features or types of apps that Apple will say we're not comfortable with that on our

00:08:11   platform because they do that. I have a hard time imagining to take the other extreme that Apple's

00:08:16   going to say no, anything that could even a little bit raise your heart rate is not going to be

00:08:22   allowed on this device. I have a hard time believing that too. I don't know where it'll end

00:08:28   up. I think it's more likely that it will be things in the operating system that preclude this stuff.

00:08:32   We know that there are pure virtual environments. They want you to be still and not move around.

00:08:43   In AR environments, there's a question of will they approve it if there's AR boxing.

00:08:48   Well, I don't know. Probably, I would think. I'm not quite sure of a scenario where AR boxing gets

00:08:55   the headset thrown off of you because it's not a real boxer hitting you in the headset.

00:09:01   I think the only potential thing that I've seen is in the human interface guidelines.

00:09:10   These aren't the rules. These are just the best practices. One thing that they've said is avoid

00:09:16   displaying motion that is overwhelming, jarring, too fast, and prioritizing comfort, helping people

00:09:23   stay comfortable and physically relaxed. They're focusing a lot on that kind of thing. I feel like

00:09:29   they're really encouraging you to maybe not move around too much, but I have yet to find

00:09:35   a particular rule of we will allow this but not this. Maybe, but I'm not sure. I think really they

00:09:45   would have to come out sooner rather than later if there are going to be no fitness applications

00:09:50   on this device. Even if they're not the ones to do it, people are still going to want to make them.

00:09:54   Right. Right. Even if they're not… Beat Saber is not explicitly a fitness app,

00:10:01   but I know people do it to get their aerobic exercise. I know they do.

00:10:05   If your Apple, short of what you just described, a version of that, which is essentially

00:10:11   "don't get excited. This is a calming product. It's not meant to be exciting." Movies that raise

00:10:17   your heart rate will also be banned. They're not going to do that. I'm not too worried about it,

00:10:22   but yeah, it is definitely… They have some level of control of what goes on the device because they

00:10:27   control the app store. I get it. I feel like they're going to probably take a light touch with that.

00:10:33   Yeah, I feel like that there will be types of apps that they won't allow, right? That's just going

00:10:38   to be natural. But like you, I don't imagine them not allowing some kind of application because they

00:10:47   think that people might drop their devices or whatever. I think if they're going to try and

00:10:52   restrict in any way apps that require some kind of movement, it's just about non-confidence in

00:10:59   the technology's ability to handle that more than anything else. Exactly. Whatever imagery is going

00:11:05   on and moving in the AR space, they're uncomfortable with the ability of the device to keep up.

00:11:11   Apple is going to be streaming the first episode of Foundation for free on YouTube ahead of the

00:11:19   season two premiere. I'm trying to add this in as follow up for last time with the silo on Twitter,

00:11:24   where now Foundation is going to be free on YouTube. On YouTube. And then this is the… I

00:11:29   mentioned that Paramount had put the whole first season of Strange New Worlds on YouTube for a

00:11:34   limited time. It's the same idea. Give you a little taste, hope you get intrigued, and then

00:11:39   follow on, and then you get the whole first season and then season two. I'm looking forward… I think

00:11:45   Foundation has gotten beaten up because it's so expensive. Which, I mean, who cares, honestly,

00:11:55   on one level. It is… I hear people describing it like it's terrible. First off, it's beautiful.

00:12:02   You actually can see every dollar that they spent. It looks great. And I liked it. I didn't love it,

00:12:07   but like, is that the bar that if you don't absolutely love it, you should destroy it? I

00:12:12   don't know. I don't understand the hate for that show. I think it's actually good. Not great,

00:12:16   but good. And I will absolutely watch season two. So. Yeah, I've avoided it. Not like actively,

00:12:22   but like I haven't. Yeah, it feels like it might be a touch too hard sci-fi for me.

00:12:28   I mean, I don't think it is, actually. But it definitely has, you know, big… It has some big

00:12:35   sci-fi ideas in it. But as always, they're really trying to make it about the characters, right?

00:12:41   In the end, it's about the characters. Test flight submissions are now open for

00:12:47   VisionOS apps, which is just a very funny thing that has occurred. Like, it's interesting this

00:12:52   year. Test flight seems much more together than normal. You know, like I know from previous years,

00:12:58   like developers have things they want to submit so people can test on the beta, and it's like

00:13:02   months into the cycle when they allow for that to occur. It started basically immediately with iOS,

00:13:08   and probably macOS too, that like you could submit as a developer for test flights so people could

00:13:13   test things. It is very funny to me the idea of people being able to submit test flights for

00:13:18   VisionOS apps when no one can try them. Now, my question would be, are they maybe getting ahead of

00:13:25   the suggested July dates for developer kits and also for allowing maybe for the developer sessions

00:13:34   that they're doing where people can go to Apple? Maybe if you have it in test flight, it's just an

00:13:38   easier way to get the app onto that hardware? Yeah, you might even be asked to provide a test

00:13:44   flight invitation so that your app can be on the device. Yeah. So maybe this is why they're doing

00:13:50   that rather than making it like a thing where they have to manage builds directly, like to and throw,

00:13:56   especially if they're going to be trying to scale these things up. But yeah, also if developer kits

00:14:01   are going to start rolling out soon, test flights needed. Yeah, and that would allow different

00:14:06   developers to look at different developers' apps, which is interesting too. Oh yeah, that could be

00:14:11   interesting, right? Like if I was a developer and you were a developer, I could give you a test

00:14:14   flight for my app and you could try it. That would be really great. Sure. Thank you, Mike. That's very

00:14:19   kind of you to say that you would share your app with me. Oh, and I want to see your app. We're

00:14:23   just trying to build good apps. I mean, it's just, I'm not really, okay. All right. No, you can see

00:14:28   it. It's fine. Oh, you got some trade secrets? Be gentle. I'm a little reluctant. I don't want to know,

00:14:33   I just, I don't know how good it is. I'm just down on myself as a vision OS developer right now,

00:14:38   but no, I want your feedback. I do. Okay. Speaking of feedback, you have some follow-out?

00:14:43   I do have some follow-out. A couple of things. I listened to ATP 542 last week. I had some comments

00:14:52   there. And of course, Monica Chen at the Verge wrote a story about like the Apple Mac Pro M2

00:14:57   Ultra, who is using it? They're all using laptops instead. And I just, as I was listening to,

00:15:03   and it's not just this episode of ATP, but it's lots of conversation about the Mac Pro. I wanted,

00:15:10   I feel like maybe I could provide a short summary of what's going on with the Mac Pro.

00:15:16   So I thought I would attempt it here. Here's my attempt at a Mac Pro summary.

00:15:21   The Mac Pro for Apple Silicon was intended to have a quad chip M2. For whatever reason,

00:15:30   Mark Gurman reported on this, they couldn't make it work, or they decided not to make it work,

00:15:34   or they decided to kick it down the road. And so they really want, they didn't have the chip they

00:15:40   were going to put in it, and they really wanted to complete the Apple Silicon transition. So they put

00:15:44   the same chip that's in the Ultra in the Mac Pro. I don't think it says anything about the future of

00:15:49   the Mac Pro. I think it's a product that they didn't really choose to ship, but they felt they

00:15:53   needed to ship something. I would actually be very surprised if there weren't a quad chip in the M3

00:16:00   or M4 generation. I think that that was always the plan, is to have this be something more than

00:16:05   the Mac Studio. And I think that's still the plan. So I wouldn't get too caught up in the rest of it,

00:16:11   because I think the most important thing, based on the reporting of Mark Bloomberg, which is not

00:16:16   his name, Mark Gurman at Bloomberg, we've shortened it to M. Bloomberg now, according to MB,

00:16:22   the chip didn't go, the chip didn't work. And so they pushed, they kicked it down the road,

00:16:30   but they had to ship something, because they really wanted to get that Intel Mac Pro off

00:16:33   the price list. That's it. I feel like that answers lots of questions about why this product exists,

00:16:39   if you believe old MB's reporting. - I've got to say, this is a good take.

00:16:44   - Sure, FMB. - I hadn't considered that,

00:16:46   but that is a good take. It's not that they have changed course on the Mac Pro,

00:16:52   but just for the M2, they just could not get the M2 Extreme out the door.

00:16:57   - I mean, a little sub note to that would be, Apple doesn't have to have every product for

00:17:05   every person. And if Apple decides that there are certain areas of the market that they don't

00:17:09   want to serve, or they can't really serve well with their hardwell, they just won't.

00:17:14   And as a critic of Apple, you can say, "I think that this sub market is important and they

00:17:20   shouldn't abandon it." But I have over the last, whatever, 20 years, definitely seen that happen,

00:17:26   where Apple just turns their back on the market. And people in the market are very upset about it,

00:17:31   understandably. But Apple as a company is doing pretty well, right? And a lot of these markets

00:17:37   are very niche markets. And it's not unreasonable from a business standpoint to look at it and say,

00:17:42   "I understand why they might not prioritize that." I think it's actually a good sign for the future

00:17:48   of Mac Pro for people who care about it, that they're still making it. And that they still

00:17:52   shipped it, even though, according to Sheriff Gurman, they didn't have the chip that they

00:17:59   were going to put in it. But I choose to believe that they actually do want to do a quad chip

00:18:08   M series processor, because think of all the cores and think of all the GPU cores and CPU cores and

00:18:15   memory and like, wow, wouldn't that be something? I think that that's probably still something that

00:18:20   they want to do, unless we hear reports otherwise, and that the Mac Pro is the place to put it,

00:18:26   but they couldn't get it there this time. And so what we end up with is something that's a compromise.

00:18:32   And I get that it's disappointing, but I think that the simplest... It's that Sherlock Holmes

00:18:36   thing. You eliminate all the other things and the simplest answer, no matter how unreasonable...

00:18:41   Okay, let's say Occam's Razor instead. Forget about Sherlock Holmes. It's Occam's Razor. The

00:18:44   simplest example is it was made for the quad chip. They didn't have it. So they shipped it with

00:18:48   a dual chip and shrug and move on and come back to it later. So I think that's pretty simple,

00:18:54   but that's my answer. It's like the short version, I think, is the real version, which is

00:18:58   they didn't get that chip, so they made do. I mean, I have a shorter, less charitable version.

00:19:07   Which I know will upset people, which is just like, the Mac Pro is not important anymore. It

00:19:11   just isn't. And you gotta let go. You just gotta let go. Please let go. It's true. It's the least

00:19:17   important Mac. And there are people out there who will argue it's the most important Mac. It's the

00:19:21   least important Mac. It really is. I understand the dream idea, right? I understand the idea,

00:19:28   but at this point, the Mac was pushed forward by the iPhone, right? So can we argue maybe the

00:19:35   iPhone is the most important thing, which then led to the current Apple Silicon chips that we have?

00:19:40   The Mac Pro is not leading anything for Apple anymore, no matter what you do to it. Everything

00:19:47   funnels up, not down. Yeah. And the bottom line is the Mac Pro that everybody's dreaming about

00:19:54   will never exist. It will never exist. Even if they do the quad version of the M series chip,

00:20:00   it's never gonna be what everybody wants because Apple is, all of Apple's success,

00:20:06   and Apple Silicon, sorry, this is becoming something, it's a TLDR with like 90 footnotes,

00:20:10   but all of Apple's success on the Mac recently with Apple Silicon is based on the fact that

00:20:14   they're using chips that evolved out of the iPhone chip. And it gets them all of that power efficiency.

00:20:20   It gets them power, but low battery life, low power usage, you don't have to cool it as much.

00:20:25   All of these things, the memory is integrated, the GPUs are integrated, all of those things

00:20:32   are advantages that make the Mac better than it's ever been. One of the trade-offs is that strategy

00:20:39   doesn't work at the extreme high end. The best you can hope for is put four of them together

00:20:45   interconnected. And maybe they'll do that sometime, but if that isn't enough, they're not gonna do

00:20:51   more than that. They're just not. There's no reason, arguably there's no reason for the Mac Pro to exist

00:20:56   at all, but I think the reason it still exists is because they do want to make that quad version

00:21:02   and have the thing that can go in recording studios. Well, here's my question to you.

00:21:07   If they do that quad chip, would they put it in the Mac studio too? I don't think they can. I don't

00:21:13   think it would fit. I don't think it could be cooled. I think it's huge. I think the Mac studio

00:21:17   was not made for that. And that would be, again, a reason to have a giant Mac Pro case is that

00:21:23   it would be, yeah, I'm not convinced it would fit in there. I mean, maybe, but my initial thought

00:21:28   was like, it's not made for that. Second little bit of follow-up, and this is more, I should say

00:21:34   Monica Chin's article is fun. It's basically anecdotes, but it's good anecdotes from people.

00:21:38   And you will not be surprised to know that the answer to the story is basically Apple's laptops

00:21:44   are so good. The MacBook Pro is so good. The MacBook Pro 16 especially is so great that a lot

00:21:51   of the pros who used to use Mac Pros don't need to because they have a laptop that does everything

00:21:56   they need. And it's a laptop, so they can take it with them wherever they need to go. And that's the

00:22:01   true story here. Well, so you said a Mac Pro in your backpack, right? Yeah. That's what I said.

00:22:05   That's what it is. So yeah. Marco did a little thing about scrolling on the Vision Pro, and he

00:22:11   actually asked me about it. There's this question about scrolling on the Vision Pro,

00:22:15   and how does that gesture feel? Because we have all gotten, I think, really used to the fact that

00:22:21   you're holding a device, a phone or an iPad, and you kind of scroll with your thumb idly. And on

00:22:25   the Vision Pro, you're not resting your thumb against a surface and scrolling it. You don't

00:22:29   have that gesture. Instead, you're just sitting with your hand in your lap, and you put the

00:22:35   finger and thumb together, and then you move to scroll. And there's this question of will that

00:22:40   gesture be as comfortable? And having used it, and you've used it, my thought was it probably

00:22:48   will be fine, but it's all down to how subtle the gesture can be detected by the cameras on the

00:22:54   Vision Pro. Because it's not that different if you've got your two fingers together and it's

00:22:59   sitting in your lap or next to you, and you're just kind of like rotating your wrist as if you're

00:23:04   scrolling. If it can pick up that level of subtle detail, it's not really any different from

00:23:10   scrolling something on an iPhone or an iPad. If you've got to make some larger physical gestures

00:23:17   in order to get the scrolling right, I could see how scrolling on a Vision Pro might be less

00:23:24   delightful than it is on an iPhone or an iPad, but I've got to think that it's a high priority

00:23:29   for Apple to get that to work. And that if they can't get the subtle gesture to work,

00:23:33   I would think that they might even have some sort of other shortcut that lets you scroll or page

00:23:39   down. But I think that they're going to be able to solve it just in watching your hand making a

00:23:45   fairly subtle gesture. And I don't think that there's a... John went on ATP, went on a whole

00:23:52   level of the chain of complexity of like, "Oh, and then if it's too big and too small and you can't..."

00:23:57   And I honestly, I love John, but I think he's overthinking it. We scroll on a track pad in a

00:24:02   very small space and it works just fine. And if they can get that same kind of gesture to work

00:24:07   with your hand that's in your lap or next to you, it'll be fine. So my impression was that it worked

00:24:14   okay. And that the only question is if you try to do something subtle and it just can't pick that up

00:24:21   because for whatever reason, the camera just can't detect that level of subtlety and turn it into a

00:24:27   gesture, then it might be an issue. But it wasn't an issue for me when I was using it.

00:24:31   The jury is out for me on the comfortability of that gesture, but realistically, if I'm going to

00:24:37   be scrolling on web pages, I'm probably not going to be doing that anyway. You're maybe more likely

00:24:42   to do it with a track pad at my desk or something than to just scroll, scroll, scroll. I would say

00:24:48   that the subtlety is maybe not as important because the windows are so large. That a small

00:24:53   movement would be much more of a movement than a small movement on an iPhone screen.

00:24:58   That this idea of if I want to move a little bit, I think that it's not going to be a tiny movement

00:25:04   like you might do on an iPhone screen, right? Where the screen's way smaller.

00:25:08   Right. But if you want to do a precision movement, that might be a different kind of gesture too,

00:25:11   where you're making a very precise movement to move it just a little tiny bit versus just sort

00:25:17   of like idly doom scrolling. Yeah.

00:25:19   Right. Yeah. We'll see. We'll see. I'm not worried about the subtlety of it. All I'm worried about

00:25:27   really, or the only question I have is the comfort of the gesture.

00:25:32   Over time too, right? Because you end up, we've all ended up with, I think, a natural hand position

00:25:37   for scrolling on an iPhone or an iPad that you can get in a very comfortable position where all

00:25:42   you're really doing is just sort of like moving that thumb or whatever and scrolling. And when

00:25:48   you don't have that device in your hand and it's just your hand all by itself, can you get it in a

00:25:54   position ergonomically that allows you to very gently scroll through content without having it

00:26:02   be that you're holding your arm out or up or whatever, right? That's the question. And we only

00:26:07   had half an hour with it. I would certainly hope that everybody at Apple has been spending years

00:26:12   already thinking about this and thinking about getting that, nailing that good ergonomic gesture

00:26:17   for idly scrolling through content. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think it might be a little

00:26:23   bit more of an arm movement, right? Like in general. And so I just wonder what that comfort

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00:28:15   of Relay FM. That is expressvpn.com/upgrade. Room around uptime. E-ha. Got a couple of things from

00:28:25   Mark Bloomberg. No, no, it's just, he just goes by MB now. Sheriff MB. Sheriff MB had a report.

00:28:32   Mark of Bloomberg. Marcus von Bloomberg. Sure. This is, we're expanding the law.

00:28:40   Mr. Gorman had a report last week on how Apple is going to be managing the purchasing experience

00:28:46   for the Vision Pro. Many of these things are stuff we would have assumed to be the case,

00:28:50   but Mark says he's spoken to sources. I'm assuming inside of Apple retail, we've been able to confirm

00:28:56   some of this to him. Apple is planning to sell the device in all of their stores, but some select

00:29:03   stores will get special areas created to handle the fitting process and appointments will be

00:29:08   required for this. This is all very reminiscent of the Apple Watch as you remember. You could,

00:29:13   I think, get an Apple Watch from basically any Apple store, but if you wanted to go and try it

00:29:18   on, you had to book appointments and at first appointments were limited to, I think, their

00:29:23   bigger stores or their flagship stores, places where they maybe thought they would sell more

00:29:28   or places where they had the space to dedicate a corner of the store to let you try on Apple

00:29:34   Watches. There will be very limited number of demo units where there are demo units because there are

00:29:39   going to be so few Vision Pros sold. You know, it's like every Vision Pro that is a demo unit

00:29:46   is three and a half thousand dollars Apple is not making, right? So they are going to be selling as

00:29:52   many of these as they can. Online sales are still going to be a thing and there'll be some kind of

00:29:58   face scanning feature probably I reckon in the Apple Store app. This is what me and you

00:30:03   experienced, right? Where they're trying to understand your fit for the light shield.

00:30:09   Marc is saying that international rollout is likely to not occur until the end of 2024,

00:30:16   starting in Canada and the UK. Tough times for me. Marc appears to indicate in his report that Apple

00:30:26   stores will actually be carrying prescription lens options that you'll be able to buy from them.

00:30:29   Interesting, right?

00:30:30   Yep. This is not what was expected.

00:30:32   The power of Apple, I guess. But he says that they'll have to have, you know,

00:30:36   thousands of them in order to keep the stock if they're going to do it that way. But I get why

00:30:42   they're motivated. They want you to walk out the door.

00:30:44   With the whole kit?

00:30:46   With the whole thing up and running and ready to go.

00:30:48   They don't want you going to their vision partner and having a crappy experience, right?

00:30:54   They want you to be able to, you've gotten the experience that they want for this whole thing.

00:31:02   And I wonder what they will do to make that happen legally in terms of, I don't know exactly what is

00:31:07   required. If they will have a machine or if they'll have you bring a prescription with you, or if they

00:31:12   have like registered opticians on call so that they can, you know, look at your results, you know,

00:31:19   from some remote location, look at your results and approve it and put it through whatever they

00:31:23   have to do to go through that. I'll also point out, we are a very long way from these things

00:31:28   being sold. So while this is the report of what they're planning right now, things can change,

00:31:33   right? I mean, the product is still in development, so it's possible that they will get down the road

00:31:37   here and they got to start working on it, right? Because it's going to happen. But they've, they

00:31:42   may change direction at any point between now and release time.

00:31:46   And it's probably going to change a ton, right? Like they might be like, oh, actually we can't

00:31:52   do the prescription lenses or, oh, you know what? We're going to do this. We're going to do that.

00:31:56   Like there is going to be a lot of change in this.

00:31:57   Or we don't have enough units and we're going to do it.

00:32:00   We'll sell them five stores.

00:32:02   Yeah. Well, like in the, in the short term, I mean, that's one of the interesting things about this

00:32:06   is how good are their remote measurements are going to be? Are they really going to,

00:32:10   like, are they really going to want to drive people into Apple stores? How many stores will

00:32:14   that be? How confident? I think their level of confidence about the quality of the online

00:32:18   ordering system will go a long way here, right? Because if they think that the online ordering

00:32:23   system is not going to be a great experience, they're going to try to push people into stores.

00:32:27   If they think it's good enough, they'll probably only have limited supply in stores and they'll

00:32:31   push everybody online, everybody else.

00:32:33   And also if they don't have enough at them, they may not have them available in all 200 or

00:32:39   something Apple stores at first, right?

00:32:40   Certainly. I think that that's part of the story is depending on the amount that they've got,

00:32:46   one way you can gate that and control that is just have it available in a few stores and then

00:32:53   everything else is online. The only challenge there is you got to be confident that your

00:32:56   online ordering process will be good enough. And if it's not, and you really need to get it fit

00:33:00   in the store, then, you know, they're going to have to make that decision. But it is a weird

00:33:05   thing because they're going to be so limited that they, you know, not everybody who wants one of

00:33:11   these, even if you think that not very many people are going to want them, the number of people who

00:33:15   are going to want them is going to outnumber the number they can make. So they're going to have

00:33:19   to figure out a way to handle that.

00:33:23   Mark Herman has also reported that Apple is indeed testing a 32-inch iMac. It's a story that will

00:33:28   never die.

00:33:29   Yeah. And he says it's around 32 inches. So, you know, maybe it's 31.9, 32.3, who knows,

00:33:36   but around 32. So that's the idea. Very interesting. You know, what is that and who wants

00:33:43   that? And, you know, it's a story that goes back to the, you know, original iMac and even before

00:33:51   the idea of an all-in-one Mac. The downside of it is that the display is made with the computer

00:33:57   and the display will not age as quickly as the computer does. So there's always this concern

00:34:03   that it's, you know, the iMacs are potentially wasteful because you're sort of wasting the

00:34:09   display. It would have a longer life without the computer attached to it. And they've got a Mac

00:34:13   Mini and a Mac Studio. But what we know from when Apple does revise the iMac is that people

00:34:19   like iMacs. They do. And they must think that there's a market for this. I think it's really

00:34:26   interesting because that's a big computer. I don't know.

00:34:29   I still think whatever this computer is, it's also tied to a display that they're going to make.

00:34:35   That would be my feeling on this. So if they have a 32-inch iMac, there'll be some kind of

00:34:40   32-inch Studio display.

00:34:41   Probably.

00:34:43   Let's go back to the details.

00:34:46   Oh, yes.

00:34:48   We have new betas out.

00:34:50   Beta 3 is now out for iOS 17. I misspoke a couple of weeks ago. This is probably the

00:34:58   one that will be the public beta.

00:35:00   The public beta, yeah. Almost certainly. Unless there's a late... It's funny because the public

00:35:06   beta thing is really, you know, Apple releases a beta that they think will be the public

00:35:10   beta and then they wait and watch.

00:35:12   Just in case.

00:35:14   Could it? Is it? And my experience in the past has been very much like they wait and watch

00:35:19   and you get to that point where they're like... Sometimes they're like, "Oh, it's okay." And

00:35:23   they roll it out. And other times they go, "Mmm, there's something in there we don't like."

00:35:28   And they do another build. And sometimes that's another beta build that is developer and then

00:35:33   public. And sometimes it's just that the public beta comes out and it's a slightly different

00:35:37   build than the last developer beta. There are lots of scenarios here, but it does feel

00:35:42   like we're... Historically, we're very close to when they usually release a public beta.

00:35:47   So beta 3, I think, is the odds on favorite to be, if not the public beta, close to the

00:35:52   public beta.

00:35:52   And as a piece of beta follow-up, you are now on everything, correct?

00:35:58   I am now on everything. I am. I have iPad, iPhone, Watch, and Mac are all on the betas.

00:36:05   I am living the dream or the nightmare. It's actually been fine. My biggest problem is

00:36:10   the usual, which is that our software that we rely on to do podcasting won't launch on

00:36:17   public betas or developer betas, certainly early in the process. And as a result, all

00:36:22   the podcasts I do now, all my automations are broken. I'm using my laptop to record

00:36:28   this and to talk to you. And then separately, sitting in front of my monitor, it's in a

00:36:33   screen-sharing window. I hate that part of it, but I got to use this stuff so that I

00:36:38   can write about it. Bottom line, I have people say to me, "You should really install it

00:36:42   on a non-production system." It's like, I can't. I can't. I have to use it. I have

00:36:50   to use them to write about them. Because if I'm just doing it on a test system, I'm

00:36:54   not using it. Not really. Instead, I'm just going to walk through the features.

00:36:59   But you're doing the reverse, right? It's like there are two machines.

00:37:02   Yeah, exactly. I have a system that is running release software that I can use. It's just

00:37:10   really inconvenient, but it works. So that's what I've got. I actually have a stable

00:37:15   iPad too. So if something catastrophic happened, I could pull back to that. But for the Mac,

00:37:21   it's the most important thing. And my MacBook Air is solid. It's just staying on Ventura.

00:37:29   No, I said Beta 3 is my time. But I think I might be chickening out, Jason. I haven't

00:37:37   done it yet.

00:37:37   Why? Why are you chickening out?

00:37:39   Steven put it on and he was complaining about battery life on his phone. And I don't really

00:37:46   want to deal with bad battery life on my phone.

00:37:49   I haven't really noticed issues.

00:37:51   Do you think I should do it?

00:37:53   Oh, I don't know if I want that amount of guilt if it goes badly.

00:37:59   If you tell me I should and it goes bad, I won't blame you.

00:38:02   Oh, I don't know. I feel like you need to take that step. I haven't had a problem with

00:38:09   it. I'll put it that way. The worst problem I had was I had a bug where music would crash

00:38:15   sometimes. So I ended up, I think it was music would crash, especially if I was attached

00:38:20   to a Bluetooth device. But I could play music by using the music app on my watch. It would

00:38:28   work. It was something in the UI, but only some of the time. That's like about the worst

00:38:33   thing that I've run into so far. But I mean, what are you getting out of it? You're going

00:38:38   to get some of these new features like the contact cards and stuff like that.

00:38:42   So I'll tell you the things that I'm intrigued about. There are a bunch of widgets that I

00:38:46   want to try. So from Apple's widgets and also third-party widgets that have interactivity

00:38:51   in them. I'm really keen to see what the autocorrect is all about and to understand what that

00:38:58   is. And also the messages features, stickers, replies.

00:39:04   Well, some of the messages features aren't there yet. And the interactive, well, I have

00:39:11   not, I got, I was able to make an animated sticker responding with an emoji I have not

00:39:20   been able to do. And what was the other thing? There's, it's not all there is what I'm saying.

00:39:29   Yeah, I'm not surprised.

00:39:30   Some of it's just not ready yet. Oh, I was going to say your interactive widgets, not

00:39:36   a lot of that yet. And then of course, if you have a third party, you're going to have

00:39:39   to get a beta that supports the beta.

00:39:41   Well, the main one that I want, I have.

00:39:44   I see.

00:39:46   I already have the one, the one I care about.

00:39:52   In which case you can.

00:39:54   Uh, all right. I'm going to do it right now. I'm going to do it right now. I, I've actually,

00:40:01   it's kind of cool that you can just do it in settings now. Right?

00:40:04   Yeah.

00:40:05   All right. iOS 17 developer beta has been checked, download and install. It's doing

00:40:09   it. I'm doing it live.

00:40:10   You're doing it live. Well, good luck. Anyway, anybody else there who doesn't want to be

00:40:15   on the developer list, uh, hopefully there'll be public beta soon and you can try it out

00:40:20   or choose to be patient and wait for the fall.

00:40:22   If I do it, I always go do a public beta. I just, if I'm going to do it, I might as well

00:40:27   get.

00:40:28   Just go all the way.

00:40:28   Yeah. It's like, don't just dip your toe in, go all the way or, you know, I'll don't do

00:40:33   it.

00:40:33   Nothing worse than running a beta that you know, there's already a new beta and you don't

00:40:37   have it.

00:40:37   Exactly. Okay. Well, what's the point of doing it? That's how I feel. I'm not recommending

00:40:40   other people for me. It's like, if I'm going to do it, I want to be like on the edge. Otherwise,

00:40:47   why am I dealing with the frustration? I'm also just waiting until September.

00:40:49   Three minutes remaining.

00:40:52   Good luck.

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00:43:06   Do you know what's super fun in the summer? In fact, something that is more fun than anything

00:43:14   else? What? A new social network. That's fun, right? Let's have a new social network. Summer of

00:43:20   fun! Summer of threads! That's where we are. It's the summer of threads everybody.

00:43:28   Since the last episode, we have gone from there being no Facebook Twitter competitor to there

00:43:35   being one. And oh boy is there one. I think yesterday, 100 million users have signed up

00:43:43   for threads by meta which is quite an achievement. I think it's the fastest app to ever get there. I

00:43:51   mean obviously it makes sense right? Like if anyone's going to do it, go to the place that

00:43:56   has the largest networks and spiral something off. What is your initial impressions here? You've

00:44:02   signed up? Yeah, I mean this is the thing is that there's like more than a billion Instagram

00:44:08   users. And you just say I'm in Instagram. In fact, I think it even knows. It's like you're already

00:44:14   on Instagram. So are you here too? And you go yep. And it goes all right. Very easy. It's the only

00:44:19   way to sign up right now. You have to have an Instagram account. That's the way to do it right

00:44:23   now. Yeah so you know it is I don't know. I hate that it only has an iPhone app and that there's

00:44:29   no web version. I mean I would like a Mac app obviously. And if they do end up federating with

00:44:35   Mastodon, it won't matter. But right now the only way to look at it is to be logged in and they only

00:44:43   have an iPhone app. And my iPhone as people here know my iPhone is my third most important Apple

00:44:49   device. Maybe fourth depending. It's just you know and so I'll read it sometimes on my iPad but then

00:44:57   it's in stupid iPhone compatibility mode. This is not great. And so like Blue Sky, I don't love Blue

00:45:03   Sky's app. Blue Sky's app is also an iPhone only app. But Blue Sky has a website that you can log

00:45:08   into and use. For those who don't know it's staging. Right staging.bsky.app. Oh geez. And

00:45:17   it works. Sounds like you're supposed to be able to use that. Definitely. That is their website.

00:45:24   So that I don't like because the truth is that I check into social media on my Mac because I work

00:45:29   on my Mac all day. And so for me I hate that there's only the iPhone app and then you know

00:45:35   of course you can't use an iPhone only app on a Mac. Anyway so I don't love that. I don't love

00:45:44   look they launched they obviously launched it fast because they sensed an opportunity when Twitter was

00:45:48   having all of its problems last weekend right. So there's a lot of missing features that I'm

00:45:54   sure they'll add right. Like that they know they're going to add. They talked about

00:45:57   supporting federations so that you can follow accounts on threads from Mastodon and vice versa.

00:46:03   It doesn't let you control reposts you know retweets which I posted about this in fact.

00:46:11   I consider that a stupendously important feature because there are people I follow

00:46:18   who are compulsive reposters retweeters whatever you want to call it. And I end up seeing in my

00:46:25   timeline a bazillion things that I don't care about that are being boosted by this person.

00:46:31   And all I really care about is what they have to say. There are other people who will judiciously

00:46:36   repost things and it doesn't bother me. But some people I care about them but I don't care about

00:46:42   the stuff that they think they should pass on. And you know on some services you can say I don't want

00:46:49   to see their reposts. I only want to see their posts. And threads doesn't do that yet and it is

00:46:55   a killer because I had to just unfollow people. It's just like I can't I can't even right. So

00:47:01   that that's an issue. But you know and I you know everybody's talking about how but it's meta and

00:47:07   meta is a bad company. It's like yeah they are. I mean yeah. However I'll point out that lots of

00:47:13   people use Instagram who think meta is bad but they use Instagram because they like Instagram.

00:47:17   And also there were some posts that were again misinterpreted I think willfully by people from

00:47:25   the guy who's in charge of Instagram who basically they said oh because I think he said something

00:47:32   like we're not gonna chase like news traffic. Yeah like we're not gonna optimize for news traffic.

00:47:40   And he actually said something like because Facebook has made meta has made mistakes in

00:47:46   the past about dealing with news. It's like no kidding but yeah good good that they're aware

00:47:51   of it. And they're like we're not saying you can't post news which people were saying that they were

00:47:54   saying. That's not what they were saying. They were saying we're not gonna optimize our service

00:48:00   to boost news and to promote news and to make it like we're not gonna do that because we did that

00:48:07   in the past and it was a bad idea. That's great. Mike Hurley says that's great because the worst

00:48:13   thing about Twitter is it was all news all the time whether you wanted it or not. Yeah and like

00:48:18   it was too much not everybody wants that. Which I will also say and this is a little bit like me

00:48:24   saying like not Apple doesn't have to make a Mac to serve every audience. We are entering an era

00:48:30   if we have entered an era not every social media product needs to serve every vertical of everything

00:48:40   like we are entering an era. I feel like what what meta is saying with threads what Instagram is

00:48:45   saying with threads is essentially you know there'll be new stuff on it but we're not focused on

00:48:50   making it a news thing and maybe where we end up is that's what is remaining of Twitter is it's

00:48:56   much more newsy and news source because Twitter cares about it and threads doesn't care about it

00:49:02   and maybe not but like I'm okay with meta of all companies saying we're not gonna

00:49:10   really invest in a lot of news algorithms for it's like no it's okay. I think there are a million

00:49:18   things for this obviously meta as a company has a not great relationship with news organizations

00:49:24   for many reasons in both directions right like news organizations don't like meta meta doesn't

00:49:29   like news organizations governments don't like when meta deals with news they make them pay right

00:49:35   like it's like a whole thing. Why would you why would you even go down that route and I would

00:49:40   argue even though yes meta is the owner of Instagram Instagram is you know Instagram has

00:49:48   its own sensibility it is ultimately the same company but it does have its own sensibility

00:49:52   that Facebook doesn't have and I think threads is coming because like there's a reason it's attached

00:49:57   to Instagram it's not attached to Facebook they want it to be kind of a child product from

00:50:03   Instagram I think it brings that approach which is a little bit of a different approach now also

00:50:08   I saw a lot of people complaining about the fact that it has an algorithmic timeline. Masari has

00:50:13   said that they they absolutely want to have both kinds of timelines but again they launch with one

00:50:19   but what I did learn is the same lesson I learned on Instagram and I hate it but this is the lesson

00:50:26   you learn on Instagram which is if you if you haven't read all the posts that you currently have

00:50:34   don't reload because the act of reloading tells it that you want to see something new and that's

00:50:41   for me on threads that's when my list goes from being mostly people I follow to being random crap

00:50:48   it's their fault but it's their fault because they built it this way but but when you hit that

00:50:55   reload thing if at the top if you pull to refresh what you're telling it is I'm done with this

00:51:02   timeline give me a whole new timeline and that's gonna be an algorithmic nonsense generator right

00:51:08   like but if you're very careful with like don't don't do it just very gently scroll down don't

00:51:15   reload I think that the timeline is okay but yeah obviously there should be there should be a

00:51:24   non-algorithmic timeline option as well and they've said that they will do it so like I don't know I

00:51:30   mean on one on one level I think it's okay that this product exists because if you're if you're

00:51:35   an idealist and you're like well these are both run by and you know blue sky too is kind of

00:51:41   problematic like okay mastodon is for me it's like okay like that's fine a lot of my people are on

00:51:46   mastodon I find mastodon the most fulfilling of all of the social media sites that are out there

00:51:51   right now but if you're a twitter person who's getting increasingly unhappy with how unstable and

00:51:57   weird twitter is getting I think we it's gotten to the point in my opinion where jumping from twitter

00:52:05   to instagram while choosing between the lesser of two evils let's be clear I think it's the lesser

00:52:12   of two evils so okay I mean it's it's it's fine I I don't know I I don't want to keep up with

00:52:21   multiple social media timelines I hate it I'm really hoping that we get to the point where

00:52:27   I can see people who are on threads from ivory and there's a there's that blue sky thing that

00:52:36   sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't but it's a blue sky bridge for for for mastodon for

00:52:42   the fetaverse I would love that I hate the blue sky which is kind of interesting just decided

00:52:48   they're gonna do their own thing and be in their own silo and I I wonder if if the reds goes really

00:52:53   well if they're gonna have to like backtrack on I think blue sky's over like I know that's gonna

00:52:59   upset but blue sky's done like there's only space for one right like there really is I think I think

00:53:05   you're probably right I think most people are not going to check five timelines right and so unless

00:53:10   blue sky has carved out a niche that works for for a particular audience right like I think it's okay

00:53:17   if mastodon look if threads became dominant twitter faded away blue sky faded away all the others

00:53:22   faded away and mastodon remained where all my tech people are I'd be okay with that right like I

00:53:28   think that would be fine but um but yeah it's it's this is meta going for the jugular right that's

00:53:35   what this is this is I'm gonna launch this thing so fast yeah it feels so satisfying to me don't

00:53:42   forget that instagram built its social graph on twitter right you linked your twitter account it

00:53:46   pulled over all your follows and now they've they years passed they cut off they cut them off very

00:53:52   quickly because they realized what was happening and now they are just taking the instagram social

00:53:56   graph and turning it into a new twitter yeah it's yeah yeah I'm very excited about threads like I

00:54:04   love instagram it's my favorite social network and has been for a long time uh I like the vibes of

00:54:11   instagram and I'm hoping that those vibes will be able to carry over to to a text-based social

00:54:16   network it's not going to be perfect but I'm hoping it will be less like twitter to be honest

00:54:22   like I I I have like that mastodon doesn't feel like twitter to me either and I think that all

00:54:27   of that's good right um I am excited about the possibility of the um like them supporting

00:54:35   activity pub and maybe that means that we can have some different experiences and still read

00:54:39   all the timelines that we want to read and like I know there's a lot of conjecture about all of

00:54:43   about all of this stuff I'm just choosing to believe what they're saying because they're saying

00:54:48   it so I will just believe it unless it changes right like there's a lot of people like oh you

00:54:53   can't trust them they're not gonna do it but they're saying they're gonna do it so if they're

00:54:56   telling you they're gonna do it just believe them and if they don't do it then you can say ah

00:55:00   you lied right like let's do a great interview on a podcast that I like called hard fork which is

00:55:06   kevin roose and casey newton the platformer they had um the mausi area on the show and he was

00:55:11   talking very earnestly about why they want to support activity pub now I think the fact that

00:55:16   they've got 100 million users in four days is going to make this significantly more complicated

00:55:21   but I don't think that that's changed their plan personally it saves them a lot right this is the

00:55:25   brilliant thing and this is what he said in that interview is it's different if you own everything

00:55:32   versus if you you have these release valves yeah so they can say like if you don't like our policies

00:55:40   about whatever it's fine you can go somewhere else and it's all interconnected and like that's the

00:55:50   part that I think people miss when they're like oh they're never gonna do it okay maybe maybe they're

00:55:54   lying or whatever but I think what what they're trying to do is find a way to make the fact that

00:56:00   they're federated with other social services serve them not that they're trying to take them over

00:56:06   but because it it means they don't have to control the entire it's also and then I have 100 million

00:56:12   users they know probably 99 million will say using the threads app and they have like a million

00:56:18   people that they might use threads in a federated app or whatever but then what it does is it allows

00:56:24   them with legislators to say hey we're open I don't know what you're talking about right like

00:56:29   and there's nothing but benefit for them exactly we're we're using open standards it doesn't people

00:56:35   don't have to be here yeah no we've this is one of those areas it's funny because on downstream

00:56:40   Julia and I talk about how the whole streaming era flipped from everything has to be on our

00:56:45   service that we own to being like oh no no no let's sell our stuff to other people and for

00:56:49   money because we also like money that's a little bit of what I think is going on here which is

00:56:55   these monolithic standardized services where it's like you can only be in our app you can only be on

00:57:00   our website there are advantages to that in terms of your power and control there are also

00:57:05   disadvantages to that and I feel like I almost feel like threads is a good example of meta

00:57:10   showing that it has learned about learned from all the things it did that burned that burned it

00:57:18   or at least some of the things that it did that burned it and trying to do this in a different way

00:57:24   in order to and and sure I mean from their perspective yeah in the end they're going to

00:57:28   want to make money on ads and they're gonna and you know I get that it's meta and ads and data

00:57:34   and things like that but I think they yeah they're going to approach this from a standpoint of like

00:57:40   we actually don't want this to be a completely monolithic thing because it I mean you talk about

00:57:47   like being criticized if you I was saying this about the app store a while ago that one of the

00:57:53   advantages of if sideloading becomes a thing on iOS is it actually makes Apple running the app

00:58:01   store a lot easier for Apple because right now an app store rejection is the kiss of death for that

00:58:06   code it literally can't go anywhere else but if they have a sideloading option Apple can just say

00:58:13   well you know we don't want it but you can just just sell it yourself we don't care we're not

00:58:19   going to put in our store but it's okay we're not destroying your product we're just saying

00:58:23   it doesn't fit in our retail store essentially and there's a little bit of that with the Fediverse

00:58:28   right there's a little bit of that saying look we're not the only game in town we're the biggest

00:58:34   game but we're not the only game in town we interoperate if you don't like what we're doing

00:58:39   but you still want to follow this news service that is on our platform you can follow it from

00:58:44   somewhere else it's fine and and and they're like they're okay with the level of like not controlling

00:58:50   everything because it gets them some other benefits in saying we're not the whole thing

00:58:56   we're just a big player I think whether it's true or not threads is like part of a facebook's trying

00:59:03   to adapt its public image you know like they've done all the things that they've done they've

00:59:09   taken the beatings that they've taken you know both in the press or for whatever it might be

00:59:16   and they've set a new landscape for themselves that they now have to try and fit within like

00:59:21   look at the you know the fact this thing can't launch in Europe because they're saying they need

00:59:24   to do a bunch of work to make that happen like they're deciding it seems like to not just charge

00:59:28   in right right and I think that people have in general I think people have good vibes about this

00:59:36   and bad vibes about their competitors like more bad vibes right about Twitter than this

00:59:43   and I think that they are taking this as an opportunity to be like hey people like us right

00:59:48   now why don't we try and just like carry on going down that route you know like and so I'd be

00:59:55   intrigued to see how this ends up turning out as a long time big proponent fan of Instagram I am

01:00:02   happy that this thing exists it makes sense for me personally it makes sense for my businesses I

01:00:08   think to like look at this as like you know you have this it's kind of like one network of two

01:00:13   sides which I think is really cool right that like you have a lot of Instagram followers you might

01:00:18   then get more threads followers and like vice versa and then it's like one handle and it's like

01:00:23   these both places I think just makes sense to me and I actually really like that it's its own thing

01:00:28   but there's still that link there so people can choose to get one or the other or both if they

01:00:33   want to like I think that this is cool I'm excited about it and I'm it also feels fun to see this

01:00:41   thing growing and evolving in front of our eyes like they did kind of launch it in a half-baked

01:00:47   state and now we're going to get to see how they adapt it I think this I think this is fun and I'm

01:00:52   happy that it exists because there are a lot of people who I followed on Twitter that were never

01:00:58   coming to Mastodon but they're on they're on threads and they're posting on threads and I'm

01:01:02   that makes me happy because there are people that I want that content from I want to see them

01:01:07   and I have missed them for months now and now they're back in my life again and I think that's

01:01:12   fun this episode is supported by Upgrade Plus and the people that support us with Upgrade Plus if

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01:01:42   and every week I will say last week's Upgrade Plus we mentioned it earlier on was a classic I it was

01:01:49   so fantastic Jason surprised me by giving me the US citizenship test it was brilliant I if you if

01:01:58   you've been maybe wanting to try like hey what can this be like sometimes this is a really good

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01:02:18   could get more content no ads and support the show it is time for Ask Upgrade we have questions from

01:02:30   Upgradients as we always do starts with Jorgen who asks with the iPhone 15 switching to USB-C

01:02:38   according to the rumors what do you think would happen to the SE will that simply see no change

01:02:43   into a new model is perhaps released sometime in the future yeah I think that's it if you're

01:02:50   worried about like EU regulations they're for new phones not for existing models so existing models

01:02:56   will be untouched and the SE will be untouched and I expect that they'll probably update the SE

01:03:02   to USB-C the next time they update it yeah because I think this is something that people are going to

01:03:06   miss right like it's new phones and the SE is not a new phone and so it can just consist out there

01:03:12   it can just exist out there in the ether Apple will probably want to change it sure sure but

01:03:18   the yeah so the old phones because Apple still sells old phones they'll still be there yeah with

01:03:22   lightning but the new phones will have USB-C and the SE I assume will come along otherwise they

01:03:28   wouldn't be able to sell in Europe after they update it Brianna asks I don't have a Mac but

01:03:34   I've been thinking about getting one for a couple of years I've been watching the refurbished market

01:03:38   on Apple's website and the price range of my ideal setup would be around three thousand dollars

01:03:42   I'm in Canada but I wondered if you could see the vision pro replacing your max completely

01:03:49   or at least personal usage I think Brianna's trying to gauge from us as to whether they should

01:03:54   wait or not I can't see the vision pro replacing my max completely at all because the Mac is a key

01:04:02   part of my workflow and you have to it doesn't run Mac software you can screen share a Mac on it but

01:04:08   you have to have a Mac so could could the vision pro replace the Mac completely for somebody like

01:04:14   us down the road maybe eventually but no time soon I don't know if it could do it like because

01:04:25   there's just going to be types of apps that I don't expect to exist right like yeah audio hijack is

01:04:34   I don't imagine it existing on the vision pro who knows maybe honestly maybe vision os is the thing

01:04:41   that makes them fully like unlock the power of ios right like maybe this is the one but I'd I don't

01:04:48   I don't feel it right now in a way that I think I could tell you yes honestly I think the more

01:04:54   likely scenario is that in a version or two the vision pro will just run a vm of mac os and you

01:05:00   won't need the the physical computer to screen share it'll just run it in a virtual machine

01:05:04   at which point you could put whatever you wanted in there because it's just a mac

01:05:09   but it would be in the box of the virtual machine of mac os I think that's the most

01:05:13   likely scenario is that I because I do think the rest of the apps will be locked down but you could

01:05:19   potentially do that but it's going to be years it's going to be years yeah it's just you know

01:05:23   it's just not if you could do all of your work on an iphone and an ipad you could probably do it on

01:05:29   this but I've tried that and I can't really do it and so I think this is going to be a nice

01:05:35   companion to the mac potentially but it's going to be a long time before you can just say I'm not

01:05:40   going to spend on a mac I'm just going to get a vision pro instead it's going to be a while

01:05:44   yeah I don't it makes me sad but I don't envision it you know I I will replace I could replace a lot

01:05:52   of my work like similar to what I did for many years with the ipad right like there's a bunch

01:05:57   of things I could do on here it would be very comfortable and nice to do I'm sure there will

01:06:01   be a bunch of experiences which will be even better than any other device that I have right

01:06:05   I'm very convinced of that and so I will maybe prefer to use my vision pro over those but it

01:06:11   couldn't be a whole replacement like Brianna if you're saying like I have a pc and I want another

01:06:16   pc but I maybe want it to be a mac now instead of windows yeah that's probably what you should go

01:06:20   for I don't think that you would be able to replace maybe like a windows laptop or a linux

01:06:25   laptop that you have with the vision pro and be satisfied completely by the way refurbished

01:06:32   macs are a great way to get a deal on a mac and I have bought multiple refurbished macs over the

01:06:36   years and they're good because you get the whole warranty and everything and really generally what

01:06:41   it is is somebody bought a mac and then returned it because they decided they didn't want it and

01:06:45   they might not have even powered it on or if they did they you know they plug it they're they're

01:06:49   generally very safe and apple supports them so if something is bad about them they'll just replace it

01:06:54   yeah so I definitely recommend looking for refurbished um macs and other apple products

01:07:00   on apple's website yeah it's like it's like all these things it's not going to be the best deal

01:07:03   you can get but you'll be taken care of there's a problem right hank asks when is apple going to

01:07:09   make apple silicon chips that do not prioritize energy efficiency power power is not as important

01:07:15   for desktop users and could this push the graphics performance beyond what is capable from dedicated

01:07:20   cards boy um I don't want to say never but like almost never is what my answer is this

01:07:29   philosophically is what apple's chip organization is all about and what are okay what's the most

01:07:36   important product apple sells it's the iphone power is always going to be prioritized there

01:07:40   because of battery life what's the next important product apple makes I don't know maybe it's the

01:07:45   mac maybe it's the ipad but uh what mac model is it well somewhere two thirds to three quarters

01:07:52   probably three quarters of all macs sold are laptops what matters there yeah battery life

01:07:57   matters power to energy um it matters the ipad it matters the apple watch it matters the only place

01:08:05   that it doesn't matter is in this thin sliver of max that are plugged in all the time uh the and

01:08:13   so you're talking about a fraction of a fraction of apple's business it's never going to be a

01:08:18   priority which doesn't mean that they won't try to do things they have already tried to do things to

01:08:23   make good higher end mac models but they are happy to use the power per watt you know standard that

01:08:33   they've been building toward because it does end up making great laptops and other powerful

01:08:38   computers and as long as they can do that they're they're not going to change their philosophy

01:08:42   just to serve certain um tiny portions of the market i just you know it will take a very

01:08:49   different environment for apple's chip design group and apple's shape of apple's business

01:08:56   for them to um stop doing what they're doing it's priorities man that's just all it is right and

01:09:04   like apple's priorities of the chips that rely on batteries yeah you're not going to believe this

01:09:11   in amid all the mac pro discourse but let me tell you mac os not having enough gpu performance

01:09:18   is not an issue anyone to a small degree of error cares about it's just not in fact when you talk

01:09:26   to apple execs like at the talk show they were talking about this at wwc when gruber was

01:09:31   interviewing apple executives like they're much more interested in the fact that their whole

01:09:36   mac line now has a decent has decent gpu's in them so that you can play games even on uh on an m1

01:09:41   macbook air you can play games and the graphics performance is vastly better than back in the day

01:09:46   when the only max that could play games at all were high-end pro max that's not true anymore

01:09:52   that's what they care about and if you're if you're thinking about how can they push it super

01:09:57   high at the high end i don't think they care and i honestly from a business perspective i don't

01:10:06   think they should i think they got it right and i know there are follow-on effects from that and it

01:10:11   makes people in certain areas grumpy but like this is this is how they got here and this is how they

01:10:17   remain here is following this approach so unless something dramatic happens that requires them to

01:10:23   change their approach for some reason they're still going to do this and then yeah throwing

01:10:26   the vision pro guess what power matters there too so like most all of apple's most important

01:10:32   products let me put it this way have a battery in them so yep here we are you can get a lot of

01:10:38   podcasts that have a focus on apple and the mac you can find many of them this one agrees with

01:10:45   this stance other ones might not this podcast is 100 agreement that apple's going down the right

01:10:52   path look i already i already came briefly for my good friend john syracuse in this episode i don't

01:10:58   want to go there again i just like oh there i'm not just talking about i'm talking about i know

01:11:02   oh i know i'm just saying like you know podcasts out there if you're out there and you're like

01:11:06   oh man i've been looking for someone who would agree with with apple this is the one and if

01:11:11   you're out there and you're like i can't stand that you two agree i can tell you there's a bunch

01:11:15   of shows that are out there for you and they're going to be able to provide you what you need

01:11:19   but we are very much like this is not a problem i have a lot of empathy for people who feel like

01:11:24   apple's not giving them what they want but because we've all been there and we've all been there but

01:11:30   if you look at the grand sweep of apple's business um it hurts it hurts when apple isn't that into you

01:11:38   but it happens and it's not apple's i mean like hey apple i know your philosophy is taking you to

01:11:45   this you're the you're the first what three trillion or trillion dollar valuation company

01:11:50   one trillion dollars or whatever it is some enormous amount but you know it all comes from

01:11:56   that philosophy that they've built around these mobile products they're essentially a mobile

01:12:01   product company and they're not going to change that they're just right they're just not this is

01:12:07   the question i've always had about the sort of like could they uncouple ram and gpu's from the

01:12:10   processors and like i think the answer is no not that they couldn't do it they could try it but it

01:12:15   would require them to to basically ditch their whole philosophy of all the chips they make that

01:12:21   are a huge advantage for them so why would you ever spend the time on that when you could just

01:12:26   keep doing what you're doing and have some pretty good computers including the bulk of the max that

01:12:30   you sell yeah but i'll look i'll just say i like the poke fun i am the same as you i understand

01:12:37   that it's like it's frustrating when you feel like you're underserved right like it's terrible i've

01:12:42   been there with the ipad you know and oh uh various creative professional markets that apple has

01:12:47   basically turned their backs on because they didn't fit with their priorities and i get it

01:12:52   i mean i get the frustration i've been in those markets i've seen those professionals be

01:12:57   frustrated like i totally get it the frustration you feel is real the frustration that people

01:13:03   have about this like i get it but i also look at what apple is like it's not it's not apple's duty

01:13:11   to serve all markets and they made a choice a long time ago about their chip design and the choice to

01:13:17   go to apple silicon all the benefits that we reap as mac users from that choice this is the other

01:13:23   part of it which is they're not going to stop prioritizing energy efficiency and that's the

01:13:28   thing right when apple was not serving the mac pro but was also not serving any mac right go back to

01:13:36   the trash can right then okay that was bad we have a problem and you could look at the mac pro as like

01:13:43   a beacon of the problem right like you went too far right with the trash can and you thought you

01:13:50   were going to be super cool and you put all this engineering into the fact that the lights turned

01:13:55   on when you turned it around you know what i mean right which is just like realistically was not a

01:13:59   thing that anybody could do because as soon as you turn the computer around all the ports popped out

01:14:04   and i will say this is someone that you may not you may have forgotten i owned one of those

01:14:09   i had a trash can mac pro this is a part of my history that i like to forget because that thing

01:14:17   do you remember the problems it used to cause us jason when we'd be recording upgrade and my mac

01:14:21   just crashed would just crash completely you'd be gone and we would have to do things to try and

01:14:26   recover my audio like it was a nightmare for months because i thought i would get a mac and i

01:14:32   would have it for years and years and years and years and it would be awesome be powerful i'd get

01:14:35   speed because at that time i think i think i may have still been working at the bank so i was like

01:14:40   trying to like you know we i did not really like comes from the i did not have mike comes for the

01:14:47   trash can on my bingo card today but so to come back around to what i was saying okay back then

01:14:53   the mac pro was a beacon of what was wrong right and then all the macs were bad the laptops were

01:14:59   bad the imac everything was bad but now with a mac pro that is maybe under serving the people that

01:15:05   want it that's happening because every other mac is the best it has ever been all of them all of

01:15:12   them and from a market share perspective apple is i think actually almost gleeful i mean and they're

01:15:20   probably a little deluded because they talk about game stuff and we know about apple's history with

01:15:24   game stuff but i think what you can read into their glee about like every mac can play games now

01:15:29   what they're really sort of saying there or revealing there is apple thinks that it is so

01:15:36   competitive with the macbook air essentially and even more so now that there's a 15-inch model

01:15:43   so competitive that they have a real opportunity to gain market share and market share games are

01:15:50   going to happen with the macbook air market share gains are because it's the biggest it's the

01:15:57   biggest market consumer general use laptop that costs a thousand bucks is an enormous market so

01:16:05   if they're ever going to prioritize anything it's going to be to areas where they have enormous

01:16:10   market share gain possible because they're going to you know if they could increase their their

01:16:14   user base and and they are i mean i think they're more mac users now than ever um that that's where

01:16:19   they're going to find the success so they're going to they're going to lean that way anyway and and

01:16:23   that that stinks it i've heard people say this is just you know it's leading to a place where apple

01:16:29   doesn't care about uh high-end users they only care about low-end users it's like well i think

01:16:35   that's miss a misstatement in a sense so i'm i'm straw manning it a little bit here in the sense

01:16:40   that 16-inch macbook pro is a very powerful impressive system right it's not like they've

01:16:45   turned their back they created the mac studio yes if that's not enough for you there are certain

01:16:52   markets above above that where apple's priorities seem misaligned but but apple's apple's game

01:16:58   is good enough that it even reaches which was a mystery before apple silicon it even reaches to

01:17:05   that level what we now see for the m2 macbook pro where it's like that's pretty good even just

01:17:11   scaling apple's existing philosophy from iphone chips to the macbook pro it gets there it doesn't

01:17:17   get much beyond there but it gets there but yeah if apple has to turn their back on certain use

01:17:23   cases up at the high end in order to fulfill its you know the mac success everywhere else

01:17:29   it will make that choice and you are right to decry it and i'm we're not all piling this on hank

01:17:35   there's a lot of people saying this sorry hank uh but it is you know they're making i think good

01:17:43   decisions that make the mac better than it ever was before and the tough part about it is those

01:17:48   decisions fundamentally leave out some people because of the choices they've made but the net

01:17:55   result is success so it sucks if you're on the outside looking in but i don't i don't anticipate

01:18:02   them changing their strategy at all because it's working and it's working incredibly well for them

01:18:07   if you would like to send us in your questions for a future episode of the show or if you have

01:18:13   follow-up or feedback go to upgrade feedback.com until next time you can check out jason's work over

01:18:20   at six colors.com and hear his podcast at the incomparable.com and here on relay fm you can

01:18:25   listen to my shows here on relay fm too and check out my work at cortexbrand.com you can find us on

01:18:30   mastodon and threads jason is at j snell j s n e double l and i am at i mike i m y k e you can also

01:18:39   find the show on mastodon we are at upgrade on relay fm social where you'll be able to find

01:18:45   video clips of the show along with on tik tok and instagram where we are at upgrade relay on both

01:18:52   thank you to our members who support us of upgrade plus thank you to express vpn and fitpod for their

01:18:57   support of this episode and most of all thank you for listening we'll be back next time until then

01:19:02   say goodbye just now goodbye mike early

01:19:17   [ Silence ]