468: Nonstop Bangers Involving Saxophone Solos


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:09   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 468. Today's show is brought to you by Notion,

00:00:16   Electric and ZocDoc. My name is Mike Hurley and we're bringing a certain energy today.

00:00:22   Welcome to the show, Jason Snow. [Mike screams]

00:00:27   Good morning. If you would like more context for this, I guess check out our Instagram,

00:00:32   TikTok, Mastodon, we'll have a talk. I don't know what's happening.

00:00:34   I'll explain it a little bit more, but there'll be some more of that over on our various videos,

00:00:39   social media channels. I have a snow talk question for you. It comes from Jonathan.

00:00:45   Jonathan wants to know, "Jason, what is your go-to summer of fun?"

00:00:49   Summer of fun! Summer of fun! Road trip listening,

00:00:53   music, podcasts, audiobooks, that kind of thing.

00:00:56   Oh, you know, the truth is, road trips are long and the only way you can do it, I think,

00:01:05   at least the only way I can do it is by switching. So I try to kind of go back and forth between

00:01:13   music and spoken word. It's mostly podcasts, music and podcasts. I have done audiobooks.

00:01:18   I'm not an audiobook person, but I did. I was driving to Phoenix for Christmas and it was

00:01:25   just me because my family flew down later. I spent some extra days with my mom and I did listen to an

00:01:31   audiobook on that trip because I was trying to work that in. But it's not my primary thing.

00:01:38   But music and podcasts, so like when we were going up to Oregon last month, it was, and I drove,

00:01:44   same thing, I drove that one way by myself because I can take days off because I'm my own boss and my

00:01:52   wife is not her own boss and cannot take so many days off. So I do a lot of that sort of like

00:01:57   logistics mixing kind of thing. So she drove back with me, but I drove up there and that was a very

00:02:02   much empty my podcast queue. But after a while, you're like, I cannot listen to these people

00:02:07   anymore. And then I play music for a while and then I go back to the podcast. So I think like

00:02:12   it's part of this complete nutritious breakfast. You got to have a little bit of the music,

00:02:17   a little bit of the podcasts and you kind of mix it up a little bit. I don't think I could do just

00:02:21   either. And that goes back to when I had a long car commute and stuff. I feel like, like I, when

00:02:28   I had a long car commute in the nineties, when I was just starting out, I had to drive across the

00:02:33   San Mateo bridge. It was really, Oh God, I drove so much, spent so much time in my car at that time.

00:02:37   Podcast listeners know what I'm talking about because a lot of you are doing that right now.

00:02:41   And I listened to sports talk for a while and news radio for a while. And I think I would switch

00:02:49   between them. And I came to the point where I was like, I can't do this anymore. And I literally

00:02:53   bought a CD player from my car. Cause I'm like, I got to listen to something else. And then,

00:02:58   so I can put music on. So it's just a balanced, a balanced diet is what I say balanced diet.

00:03:03   Commute like commuters. That's the bread and butter, right? We're here for you.

00:03:07   Commuters like podcast industry would collapse if there were no more commutes.

00:03:12   You know that, but that, that did happen some positive industry with COVID, but it didn't

00:03:17   happen so much. So thank you for that. Appreciate it. Yeah. We appreciate it. It's true. Now a song.

00:03:24   Indeed. If you'd like to send in, that's not a question of your own. It's very simple. Just go

00:03:29   to upgrade feedback.com and you can send one in. Jason, I have some, I would say breaking news,

00:03:39   very good breaking Mac pro follow-up that came into us. This is not necessarily like we can't

00:03:48   confirm this story. Sure. Because it just came in across the transom from somebody who is anonymous.

00:03:56   So take it for what it's worth, but it's very interesting information. So this came from one

00:04:04   of our patented anonymous informants. I am an Apple engineer working on the GPU team.

00:04:10   It pains me to say that Jason's speculation is correct. The quad chip has been canned with no

00:04:17   plans to return. For context, we are actively developing what will presumably be the M5 chip.

00:04:23   And the quad chip was only ever specced for the M1 and removed late in the project. There are no

00:04:30   plans to create a quad chip through at least the M7 generation. My understanding is that the quad

00:04:38   required too much effort for too small of a market. Something interesting that may come in

00:04:44   the M8 in future generations is called multi-die packaging. This allows the CPU and GPU parts of

00:04:51   the chip to be fabricated on different dies and packaged together much like how two max chips make

00:04:57   an ultra. With this design, it is conceivable that we could have three, four, or five or more

00:05:03   GPU dies with one or two CPU for a graphics powerhouse or vice versa for a CPU workstation

00:05:09   that doesn't need as much GPU grunt. However, as far as I know, no such plans exist yet.

00:05:15   Well. Well indeed. If this report from our anonymous source is true,

00:05:25   things not looking great for the Mac Pro. No. At least not the idea of a Mac Pro that some people

00:05:31   really want, right? Which is this CPU powerhouse. So to kind of break that down in case you need a

00:05:38   little catch up, the idea of we would, there was a talk of and consideration of taking like four

00:05:46   M1 Pros would it have been and putting them together to make an M1 Extreme effectively,

00:05:53   or to take two M1 Maxes and put those together and make like an M1 Extreme chip, which would be housed

00:06:00   inside of the new Mac Pro. That didn't happen. And what our informant is suggesting is this was

00:06:06   only ever planned for the M1. So once the Mac Pro did not come out during the M1, well, that was the

00:06:12   end of that. Yeah. It's interesting because the thing here is that what I said on, I think it

00:06:21   might have even been an Upgrade Plus, but what I always said about this. We continued our conversation

00:06:24   about the Mac Pro even further in Upgrade Plus, but we spoke about this in the main show too.

00:06:29   When you're talking about the relevance of the Mac Pro going forward for anything other than this

00:06:34   extremely limited use case of some expansion, you know, IO cards and otherwise it's performance it

00:06:39   offers is identical to the Mac Studio. What I said was if there's a quad chip at some point,

00:06:47   then it makes sense. If there is not a quad chip at some point, it doesn't really make sense. And

00:06:53   in my real question based on this, if this is true, my question is, is Apple going to keep the

00:06:59   Mac Pro case? I mean, on one level, they can keep the Mac Pro case alive because they've designed

00:07:04   it essentially, and they're going to keep making these new versions of the Ultra chip. They could

00:07:09   just keep dropping them in there. And how much expense is that really? And so maybe they'll keep

00:07:15   it around. But like if you're looking for a Mac Pro that offers appreciably greater performance

00:07:21   than a Mac Studio, you would need to go out. I mean, to this idea, an intriguing idea that

00:07:29   you could ultimately make chip variants that have like multiple GPU or CPU dies,

00:07:34   which could potentially happen. But you're still, I mean, at this point, we're talking about like

00:07:38   six, seven, eight years from now, a very long time. And so if this is accurate, what we need

00:07:44   to do is think of the Mac Pro as what we think of it today, like literally today, which is all it is

00:07:51   is a Mac Studio with slots for IO. And that's all it's going to be for a while, according to this

00:07:56   report. - I mean, I've probably assumed this is just it. Like, do I imagine in like seven years,

00:08:05   they still have a Mac Pro that looks like the way it does now? I don't know if I,

00:08:11   I wouldn't be willing to put money on that basically. Like, like it, maybe it makes sense

00:08:17   for right now. It maybe makes sense because they promised it, you know, maybe part of the problem

00:08:21   was maybe part of the reason this thing exists is they promised it when they were going to do

00:08:26   the four die chip, but then they stopped that plan, but they promised that the Mac Pro was coming.

00:08:34   And so here it is. And it's just like the ultra chip with some expandability. And that's because

00:08:44   that's what they promised they would deliver something. And they're just going to, I just

00:08:48   reckon they move on over the next few years. And the, maybe the Mac Studio grows in some way to

00:08:55   swallow up more of the market and the market just gets smaller and smaller and smaller that

00:08:59   is it worth it? Like, because the way I would see it, right, this idea of, of, of this multi-die

00:09:05   packaging, right, that our informer's talking about, I don't, if they develop that, they're

00:09:09   not developing that just to make like configurable Mac Pro machines, it's going to go into other

00:09:15   stuff, right? So like, it doesn't make sense to me necessarily that they would keep the current

00:09:21   Mac Pro tower design around for another six, seven, eight years on the hope that they might

00:09:28   be able to create a chip tailored for that one. You know what I mean? Like, I just felt like this

00:09:32   would just go on MacBook Pros, it would go in Mac Studios. I hear what you're saying, but, um, I

00:09:37   don't, I don't know now that they've done an Apple Silicon Mac Pro, I'm not sure that there's much

00:09:42   cost in them keeping it around now and just keeping it like, literally they're like, we know

00:09:46   how many people, assuming it sells at all, right, to this market that they apparently want to keep,

00:09:51   which is this, you know, audio and video studio kind of market that they say, okay, we'll just

00:09:56   keep iterating that every year or two with the new chip, but otherwise making no other changes and

00:10:01   it'll just sit there and there's not, you know, it's of limited cost since they've already got it

00:10:05   out the door. It's got cost, but like they made this one, I could see them making others.

00:10:09   Yeah, yeah, they've done it and I see that makes perfect sense, but if someone asked me to put

00:10:17   money on it, I wouldn't, I wouldn't put money on it. So I'm just not, not sure. Nevertheless,

00:10:22   this is a super interesting piece of information. I'm willing to go along with it because it makes

00:10:30   sense to me with the way that it was explained, that because the rumors did just stop about this

00:10:36   extreme chip, like it just stopped at a certain point and that may have been just because they

00:10:41   completely abandoned that part of the project, moved on, that was the end of it.

00:10:45   Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that the Mac, right, I do have that question about like, if they didn't say,

00:10:50   yes, we're going to do a Mac Pro and also we're living down the legacy of having said, no, no, no,

00:10:55   no, no, we care about you and we designed this new Mac Pro, right? Like all that legacy is probably

00:10:59   part of the reason that that product exists at all, but we don't know, like it's entirely possible

00:11:04   that Apple looks at it and says, look, this is, this is, we're not willing to overhaul our entire

00:11:09   processor architecture in order to do a different kind of Mac Pro, but we'll do this Mac Pro. This

00:11:13   is, this is as far as we're able to go and, and that may be true.

00:11:16   Yeah, we'll find out. I'm not, I don't know. I mean, I think I heard, well, I heard the episode

00:11:22   of ATP where Jon was talking about what we were talking about in response to us, so we can follow

00:11:26   back around to that again. And I think maybe you just may have mentioned it, he may have mentioned

00:11:30   to it too, the idea of like the Mac round table and they got everybody together and spoke about the

00:11:35   future of the Mac. And you'll maybe need to remind me, but I don't remember that they spoke about the

00:11:40   Mac Pro then, just that there was an iMac Pro. Did they talk about the Mac Pro then too?

00:11:45   No, the way, the way it worked is they were, they were doing the iMac Pro as the replacement for the

00:11:49   Mac Pro, and then they changed direction. Ah, there it is. And the round table, they said,

00:11:53   we will do a new Mac Pro. We got the Mac Pro wrong. We are going to make a modular system.

00:11:58   At one point they were like, the future of the Mac Pro is a closed system. It's an iMac Pro,

00:12:04   which is essentially what the Mac studio is. Right? Like essentially that's the same strategy

00:12:08   if they were to drop the Mac Pro. And so I think part of them is like, you know, let's keep it

00:12:13   alive. We designed this thing, the enclosure, the one time. So we've got the enclosure. They've now

00:12:18   built an Apple Silicon version of it that is, they'll watch, I'm sure. And, and depending on

00:12:23   the pain point, they might kill it entirely. But I would, I would probably make the counter argument,

00:12:28   which is if there's an M2 Mac Pro, there will probably be M3 or at least M4 Mac Pro as well.

00:12:34   That's basically the system we've got with the more recent chip on it. And it'll have,

00:12:40   it could have very impressive performance depending on the amount of GPU cores that they

00:12:44   put in the future chips, but it's not going to be that quad thing that would really have the

00:12:49   big performance we're expecting, but maybe that's okay. Maybe they, it's the minimal

00:12:55   commitment they can make without, you know, doing a larger commitment, like doing a quad chip or

00:13:00   changing their entire architecture. So maybe that's what the future of the Mac Pro is, is,

00:13:04   is what this is. But if this report is right, I think that there are only two futures for the Mac

00:13:09   Pro in the near term, which is more of this or gone. Yeah, I think the thing that threw me is

00:13:15   there was so much in that round table. Cause it was also when we found out about the iMac Pro for

00:13:19   the first time, right? Like this is where we'd first heard about it. If I'm remembering correctly,

00:13:24   they were talking about like a more powerful iMac as well as a modular Mac Pro, but the iMac Pro was

00:13:29   around the corner cause it was just about to get rid of the Mac Pro, but they ended up changing

00:13:35   course. But yeah, nevertheless, this, I just think this is more example of changing courses in Apple

00:13:41   and how it affects the Mac Pro, which I think is just kind of how it always will because it is the

00:13:46   thin end of the wedge. It's an edge case, right? It's an edge case. And so when Apple, when Apple

00:13:51   makes any sort of like larger company-wide or even platform-wide decision, the shape of the

00:13:57   thing gets deformed a little bit, right? Or reformed into something new. And the, uh, if

00:14:03   you're on the edge, right, you could discover that the, uh, your edge has gone, right? And then you're

00:14:09   not even in the bubble anymore and you have to move or lost. Yep. And I think nothing shows that

00:14:16   more than the Mac Pro we have right now, because it was only created because of uproar, right?

00:14:23   And so like it was this machine created to kind of hearken back to the glory days, quote unquote,

00:14:30   with the Mac Pro, right? Like the G5, right? Like that kind of era, be like the big silver tower,

00:14:36   right? Looking as it does. And so we ended up with that, but it was just before Apple Silicon,

00:14:42   where clearly in an Apple Silicon world, that's not the design they want either, right? Like,

00:14:48   because it doesn't need to be as big as it is now. It only really needed to be that size for when

00:14:55   they originally did it for the few years that they did it. And then halfway through its life cycle,

00:15:00   it now has a completely different architecture inside and all of the modularity, the vast

00:15:04   majority of the modularity has now been taken away from it. And so like this, I think this current

00:15:09   Mac Pro is like a perfect example of what it's like to be that edge case product where like,

00:15:16   now it's kind of not fit for purpose because its original purpose was for a very specific thing,

00:15:22   which now doesn't exist anymore, but we still have this case. - No, that's exactly it. There's in our

00:15:27   Discord, David's shop is like, "Oh, that was just a marketing stunt. It doesn't mean anything about

00:15:31   it today." But it's like, but you gotta understand the path that it led to, which is it was part of a

00:15:36   re, it's not that they can't break a promise, but they did make a promise, so they're doubling back

00:15:41   on it as hard, but also it set them on a path where they designed that case and they made a lot,

00:15:46   right? Like, and now that then they've got the case, so they're like, "Well, we've got the case,

00:15:49   so we could do this." And like, it does lead to where we are now in a way, but here we are,

00:15:57   right? That's the truth of it is like, would Apple make this decision today of like, "Oh,

00:16:01   you know what we should do is we should build a giant case, a giant tower case with slots,

00:16:06   but not those kinds of slots. Those don't work, but these other kinds of slots that very few

00:16:11   people use, but some people use." No, you would never do that, but we are here where they already

00:16:18   built that, right? And that was the result of the thing that generated that round table, and so

00:16:23   that's why we're here. It's really interesting, but yeah, you are right. It's a little like,

00:16:28   it's like the shoreline moved or a river changed course and the Mac Pro ended up kind of beached,

00:16:34   and your choices there are that you either find the water again, I'm just full of metaphors today,

00:16:40   or you, or you're dead on the side of the road. I don't know. It's, I mean, this is the thing,

00:16:48   is that, is that as the profile of the platform changes, the products change and the edge case

00:16:53   products are the ones that are most likely to die. I mean, the iMac Pro also, same story, right? Like

00:16:59   the iMac Pro was a new edge case, and then they went back to the old edge case and it died.

00:17:03   It wasn't needed, right? The iMac Pro just wasn't needed after they ended up reassessing the course

00:17:11   again. And so, honestly, kind of like this current Mac Pro feels like the iMac Pro, right? Where it's

00:17:18   like the iMac Pro was born out of a decision, but then they went back on it and then they made the

00:17:23   Mac Pro, but now they've kind of gone back on that because realistically for even more people,

00:17:30   it's just not a machine that's needed anymore because everything else is so powerful. Exactly.

00:17:34   Couple of other little bits of follow up before we move on. We spoke about this a number of weeks

00:17:41   ago, but it's been made official. Lionel Messi has officially joined the Inter Miami MLS team

00:17:46   on a three year deal. His first game will be broadcast on Apple TV+ with the MLS pass thing

00:17:54   on Friday, July 21st. So that's this Friday. Quote, "Apple, an MLS production, have committed to

00:18:01   showing Messi's games with premium quality broadcasts. Coverage of his games will feature

00:18:08   18 camera angles, Steadicam, Super Slow Mo, drone shots and more to enhance the experience

00:18:16   for viewers." That comes from 9to5Mac. I love that idea of like they have all this opportunity,

00:18:21   but for Messi, they're going to throw everything at it from a quality perspective. Those are going

00:18:25   to be their A-level broadcasts. Coverage of his games will also feature Inter Miami.

00:18:35   Lionel Messi and Inter Miami will be playing. Yes, and friends.

00:18:39   I really wonder what it's going to look like. Like what the quality of play will end up looking like.

00:18:48   Well, yeah, that's right. I'm curious about what the viewership will be. Will there be a broader

00:18:53   international audience for these matches because it's Messi and people want to see Messi? I'll tell

00:18:58   you this, I would imagine that in Argentina, they're going to do a lot of Apple TV+. But yeah,

00:19:05   we'll see. I feel like at least for these first couple of games, it would be a bit higher. Like

00:19:13   I feel like there might be some lucky losers. For sure. No, I think Messi will bring an audience,

00:19:18   I think the numbers will be higher than ever on an ongoing basis too. But yeah, there'll be a bump

00:19:24   at the beginning. I'm actually kind of surprised that they're not doing a free game. Right? That

00:19:30   like one of these isn't the free game, like his first one. I have no doubt that there will be

00:19:37   free Messi games because I know they do put some games for free. It just surprised me that they

00:19:43   didn't just go all in and make this like a taster match. Follow up for you specifically, Jason Stone,

00:19:51   maybe any other audience that care. Apple's Q3 earnings will be broadcast on August 3rd.

00:19:58   I'm on an airplane during that. I don't know what I'm going to do.

00:20:02   Got to figure that one out. Do you want me to sub in?

00:20:05   Make the worst transcript in history? I don't. So I'm trying to figure out if I can change my plane

00:20:12   or what. Can you imagine how many things would have to go wrong before you would ask me to do that?

00:20:19   Like how badly could it get, you know, before we sub Mike in to do the transcript?

00:20:26   I think your premise is, it has one problem, which is it's actually very easy for me to just say,

00:20:34   sorry everybody, no transcript this time. I fall below that. I fall below it not happening.

00:20:42   That's what I'm saying. Something has to go wrong. Such a mistake that I decide somehow to do it

00:20:47   and not just not do it, which would be a big step. So yeah, exactly right.

00:20:52   And you'll be happy about this one. GM dealers are reportedly very unhappy about the idea of GM

00:20:57   dropping CarPlay in favor of their own system, which we spoke about a month or so ago. There's

00:21:02   a quote from a dealer, "There is an infinite number of ways that this could go bad."

00:21:07   Which is a beautiful quote. There's a Detroit Free Press story, which I can't read because it's

00:21:16   paywalled for subscribers only, but Chance Miller of 9to5Mac hacked the Detroit Free Press or

00:21:23   something. I don't know. Maybe just paid. I don't know.

00:21:25   Maybe just paid. You know, what I've discovered, a little side note, what I've discovered,

00:21:29   because I subscribed to a really nice newsletter called the California Sun for people who are in

00:21:33   California. It's really great. It's by a guy who used to do the New York Times California letter.

00:21:38   And it's a substack basically. It's not substack, but it's a subscription newsletter that summarizes

00:21:44   sort of the news of the day from California with a lot of links. And what I've discovered is

00:21:48   lots of newspapers have syndication deals. So he does a lot of links that are like to MSN.com

00:21:56   or Yahoo or AOL.com, believe it or not, to these places that like republish their articles,

00:22:02   not behind a paywall. So that's a approach. First off, if you're in California, check out the

00:22:09   California Sun. I think it's Californiasun.co. And also that's a thing you could always try and I'm

00:22:14   sure is part of Chance's wheelhouse too, which is you might not be able to get that Detroit Free

00:22:20   Press story from the Detroit Free Press, but what if it's also on MSN or something? And then you can

00:22:26   find it there. Anyway, "Car plays not broken. Why fix it?" is the great quote. The risk of failure

00:22:32   is very high. I don't even know the name of this new system, much less what benefits our customers

00:22:37   can expect. Nobody has had any communication from GM. The new system just can't work. It has to be

00:22:44   the best in the market. It's got to be better than car play. Good luck. Good luck. Yeah, because it

00:22:52   falls down at the first hurdle, which is how you connect your phone to it. Like that's the first

00:22:56   thing. And there isn't really a way to do it. So it's just like disaster. Somebody wrote in a while

00:23:03   ago when we were talking about Apple News, like I don't know if this is the thing with the Detroit

00:23:06   Free Press, but as a thing, a lot of publications are in Apple News. If you have Apple News, it can

00:23:14   be a way to get around the paywall for the one article that you want to read. Have a search for

00:23:19   it in Apple News. I also wanted to do a quick piece of follow out, just because I'm very impressed

00:23:26   by this. Underscore David Smith is doing just a superb job right now sharing what he is working

00:23:31   on for Widgetsmith in Vision OS. He's been making some blog posts about this in his design note

00:23:38   series, also sharing things on Mastodon too. I just want to say if you are a developer working

00:23:44   on Vision OS and you're not following what Underscore is doing right now, I think you should,

00:23:48   because he's being very open about the processes that he's taking. And I'm also learning some

00:23:54   interesting stuff myself about what this system is capable of and what it isn't. There are a lot of

00:24:01   people sharing these things right now, but Underscore is not only a great communicator,

00:24:06   but he is also building one of the most popular apps that exist, like a version of that for this.

00:24:14   I think it makes him very specifically targeted and focused. I think it's really interesting to

00:24:22   see what he's up to. The weather app concept that he put together is beautiful too. He's getting me

00:24:28   very excited, even more excited for using Vision OS apps. And I'm really curious about this thing

00:24:37   that you put in our show notes, which said, "Do you want to just do it? I don't want to spoil it.

00:24:42   You just want to tell people what it is." Sure. So here, very exciting thing. It's a first for the

00:24:48   Upgrade podcast. I hope that it goes well. We just do a lot of these going forward. I'm sure it's

00:24:53   going to be a regular recurring segment. It's coming into college football season pretty soon.

00:24:58   On September 9th at 7 30 p.m. Pacific time, the California Golden Bears, my team,

00:25:03   will be hosting the Auburn Tigers, Tim Cook's favorite football team, Auburn, coming to Berkeley

00:25:12   to Memorial Stadium, historic Memorial Stadium, for an interconference battle between the SEC

00:25:19   and the Pac-12, which is going to be 10 soon. Anyway, we don't talk about that. Two illustrious

00:25:25   universities, one more illustrious than the other. Two illustrious football teams, one vastly more

00:25:29   illustrious than the other. Playing a game in the evening in California on probably a warm late

00:25:36   summer Saturday night in Berkeley. Watch the sun go down, literally from the stadium, you can watch

00:25:41   the sun go down behind the Golden Gate Bridge across the bay and watch a college football game.

00:25:47   Now, I am a season ticket holder of Cal football and have been for many years, and before I had

00:25:53   those tickets, my dad had those tickets, so they've been in the family since the 60s, believe it or not.

00:25:58   It is a family tradition. I have four tickets. Currently, those tickets are being used by myself,

00:26:04   my wife, and my good friend Philip Michaels, who chips in for a ticket because he, I got, yes, I took,

00:26:10   he's such a good friend that I got him to be a fan of a bad football team. Wow, what a buddy.

00:26:14   Anyway, what I'm saying is we always have an extra ticket, and so sometimes Phil won't come and we'll

00:26:20   bring a couple friends of ours, or we'll just invite one person, or Phil will bring a friend, and we just

00:26:24   work it out. But I would like to now officially say to Tim Cook, I have an extra ticket for September 9th

00:26:35   for Auburn against Cal. Did you know that Auburn is coming to the Bay Area, your home, your beloved

00:26:40   football team? They are. And I got you covered. I've got a ticket. And now, Tim, I know you've got some

00:26:47   questions about this. One of your questions is going to be, is this in like a luxurious box where

00:26:51   I'm separated from the masses? And the answer is no. Unfortunately, it's not. Those are available,

00:26:57   I'm sure, and you could, you could go down that route if you really want to, if you really want to

00:27:00   be bothered. Is it in the super central 50-yard line donor section where you have to like pay tens

00:27:08   of thousands of dollars for the right to pay thousands of dollars for a seat, and you have your

00:27:12   own concession area and all of that? Sadly, no. We used to sit over there before they redid the

00:27:18   stadium and made those the super expensive seats, but these seats aren't those. Is it a bad ticket?

00:27:25   Do I sit in a bad location? I don't think so. It's actually very nice. We're kind of at the

00:27:30   five-yard line on the north end, which is the good place to be. We're on the alumni side, so you're

00:27:37   not gonna have to deal well. It's a night game, so you won't have to be in the sun at all because the

00:27:41   sun will already be going down at that point. But anyway, it's a beautiful place to sit. We're about

00:27:44   20 rows back. A great view of the north end zone when the excitement is going on there.

00:27:49   And we got the ticket. And Tim, now I know there's one other thing you're asking me, which is,

00:27:55   "Jason, what does it cost?" And the answer is, the ticket is free. You would be my guest. You can

00:28:01   come sit with us, with me and Lauren and Phil, and we'll watch a game. It's Pac-12 After Dark.

00:28:05   It'll be on, I think, ESPN probably, and we'll have a good time. And you know what? If you feel

00:28:11   bad about not being able to compensate me for the cost of the ticket, that's fine. Buy me a hot dog

00:28:15   or something at the game. It's fine. We'll work it out. If you really want to do that, buy me a

00:28:19   Coke and a hot dog and we'll call it even. But it's not really necessary. It's all fine. So anyway,

00:28:24   open invitation, Tim. Get in touch. Cal Auburn, looking forward to it. It's bench seating, but

00:28:30   it's generous enough that we can all squeeze in there and watch your Auburn Tigers probably

00:28:37   dismantle my Cal Bears. And it'll be a lot of fun. I'll teach you some of the Cal cheers. You can

00:28:41   teach me some of the Auburn cheers. So anyway, open invitation, Tim. Gonna be a beautiful night.

00:28:46   I'm looking forward to seeing you there. - If Tim says yes, but only if you wear a red shirt,

00:28:50   would you do it? - It's a red? I don't think red is an Auburn color. - No, but isn't the whole thing

00:28:54   about take off the red shirt? - Yeah. Oh no, you're right. I mean, why would he do that? That would be

00:29:00   cruel. - Yeah, but it's like a challenge, you know? Like, I'll do it, but only if this, you know?

00:29:06   - I'll wear an orange shirt. I won't wear a red shirt, but orange for the Auburn Tigers. I would

00:29:11   do that, but I would prefer to wear navy. Navy, because navy is in the colors of both teams. Anyway,

00:29:17   Tim, call me. Or, you know, have your people call me. It's fine. - Yeah, of course. That's also okay.

00:29:21   We'll accept people. - Also, there's an electronic. Now, you're also saying to yourself, Tim,

00:29:25   but I don't, you know, Jason lives in the North Bay. I live in the South Bay. I don't really want

00:29:29   to like schlep around and we're going to mail a ticket in the mail. Tim, I got great news for you.

00:29:34   Computers are the future. - You may have heard of them. - And perhaps you've heard of them, and there is a

00:29:42   newfangled digital ticket system involving the internet that lets me check a box on one of my

00:29:47   tickets and transfer it to a friend. So, if you give me your email address or your phone number,

00:29:52   then you can receive that ticket and place it in your Apple wallet. Put it on your watch.

00:29:56   That'll work. And then we can meet at the seats. I don't have to give you the ticket in

00:30:01   advance. We don't have to meet at the bear statue outside the stadium. We can actually just meet in

00:30:05   the seats because you'll have my ticket. So, anyway, have your people call my people, and by which

00:30:10   my people, I mean me. - This episode is brought to you by Notion. Project management tools are

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00:32:29   So we are in the summer of fun. Summer of fun! And in honor of World Emoji Day that happened

00:32:37   yesterday, as you're listening to this, it's I guess World Emoji Week now, I thought that we

00:32:43   could look at our frequently used emoji as displayed in the keyboard inside of iOS. Can we

00:32:52   call this a, can we name this segment? Can we call it something? We can call it whatever you want.

00:32:55   All right, well, you know, our friend Jeremy Burge is the founder of Emojipedia, although he's no

00:33:02   longer involved. So why don't we call him the Jeremy's? I don't like that. Oh, that one doesn't work for me,

00:33:08   but we can workshop it. All right. We can call it the Worldy's. How about the Burgees? The Burgees,

00:33:16   there you go. The Burgees. I have links in the show notes to my and your most frequently used

00:33:24   emoji. Thought we could take a look at them, maybe make some comments about them. Do you want to take

00:33:27   a look at mine? Tell me what you think. If you've got any questions for me about some of the emoji

00:33:31   that I use as represented by the iOS keyboard. Sure, sure. I have some problems with this,

00:33:39   but I'll deal with mine. If you feel that this is a decent representative sample, we'll go with it.

00:33:45   I would say yeah. Okay. It's enough anyway. Okay. What do you think of mine? Oh, I thought you were

00:33:53   going to take me through it. I like it. There are some that surprise me. I am surprised by the

00:34:00   steaming pie. Yes. And actually, other than that, I think this is a pretty good list. There's the

00:34:11   kebabs. I guess I'm a little surprised by that, but otherwise I think this is a, I understand

00:34:16   these emotions. I understand why you would, I think the fact that you have the microphone emoji

00:34:21   is the most on brand of all. The kebab thing that I think you're seeing, this is one of those like,

00:34:28   it's like it's a cultural emoji from back in the original days of emoji. This is actually

00:34:34   called Dango, which is a Japanese treat of sticky rice balls. And the reason that I have this is we

00:34:48   are currently decorating our home. And it just so happens that in our, we're doing like a few

00:34:54   different colors in our main area because like our downstairs area is like a very large open plan

00:34:59   area, but it's split into some like zones and we are actually using pink, cream and green. And so

00:35:05   our downstairs area of the house is the Dango area now, basically. That's why that is there

00:35:12   because me and Adina have been making that reference to each other. There are some just

00:35:17   emojis that I love in here. So obviously top right is the, it's called heart decoration,

00:35:21   the white heart and the purple box. That is the heart that I have chosen to use because nobody

00:35:25   really uses it. So I use it. We have the hot face emoji, which I just think is fantastic in tons of

00:35:31   different use cases. It's one of the greats. The salute emoji, which I have pledged my allegiance

00:35:36   to, salute emoji is top tier emoji, as is the like dotted line emoji face thing.

00:35:44   That's the Homer retreating back into the hedge emoji. Right. It's like, I'm not even here right

00:35:51   now. Another like just excellent, excellent emoji. Yeah. So I have, I have a lot of emojis that I

00:35:58   enjoy here. The, I think this is a pretty good representation. I use eyes a lot. I use the love

00:36:02   heart face one a lot. I use the scholar lot. I think this is a pretty good representation of

00:36:07   the emoji that I tend to use the most. If you have any, you want to particularly praise as a great

00:36:14   emoji. Under, under appreciated, maybe. I don't know. Oh, another appreciated one. I mean, you,

00:36:20   you use, so I'll, I'll point out, you've got the, the smiling face with surrounded by hearts,

00:36:24   which I think of as a, an early mic embracing thing that is actually really nice, which is the,

00:36:29   I am happy because I feel loved basically emoji. And I think that's a really good expression to

00:36:35   have in the emoji set. And I think you've always used that really well of like, this is a, this is

00:36:40   me feeling good about that. I do. I use that a lot and I use raised hands a lot. That is like my,

00:36:45   that's my universal thank you. I think it's better than the thumbs up. I don't really like thumbs up.

00:36:50   It's like a thank you. I think raised hands is like a really good one. It's like, Oh, you're

00:36:54   so incredible. That's kind of how I imagine it whenever I, whenever I use it. Why the pie,

00:36:58   why the pie? Is that from when I was sending you all those pictures from New Zealand about,

00:37:02   about meat pies and why America doesn't have meat pies? This is, this is kind of like part of a pet

00:37:08   name thing. So I'm not going to give all of the information there. All right. All right. You just

00:37:14   love hot pie from chicken pot pie, as I call my hot pie. There's a character named hot pie on game

00:37:20   of thrones. Hot pie. I don't watch game of thrones. So I wouldn't well, hot pie. Just wait. When you

00:37:24   ever do, uh, you'll see hot pie and you'd be like, I'm just not, I'm fine with it. You know,

00:37:29   cause like for me, I feel like all the big things have been spoiled just because of the internet.

00:37:33   And so it's just like, I'm not interested. You didn't know about hot pie. I do know why I didn't,

00:37:37   but I'm just going to go out on a limb and say it's probably not that important.

00:37:41   I don't know. Hot pie is kind of important. All right. Let me take a look at your emoji here.

00:37:47   All right. So there was some, there's some already. So here's the, here's the thing. First off,

00:37:51   the place I, I do the place I send emoji the most is Slack on my Mac. And the second place is Slack

00:37:59   on my phone or my iPad. The emoji list that I've got infrequently used,

00:38:07   on my iPhone and my iPad are so bizarre because it's full of emoji. I don't recall ever sending.

00:38:14   And I think it's because I don't send enough of them often enough. Like the one that I sent you

00:38:20   has the New Zealand flag and a Kiwi and a, and a, and an airplane and a, and a suitcase because

00:38:27   those are emoji I sent in February when I was in New Zealand. And they're still on the frequently.

00:38:33   I mean, you've been talking about Kiwis a lot recently still. So, you know, like for as much,

00:38:38   you know, Not via emoji. Is my phone hearing words I say in public and then

00:38:42   turning them into emoji and putting them on the list. I don't know what that is.

00:38:47   So I can see some Jason Snow classics in here immediately.

00:38:50   Oh, for sure. For sure. Right. For sure. My preferred heart is the blue heart.

00:38:55   Blue heart. Cause the red heart feels too forward. Yep.

00:38:57   I do have the red heart in there. My wife gets the red heart.

00:39:00   Oh, good stuff. Good stuff. Rest of the world gets the blue heart.

00:39:05   I like the blue heart. I see other people using the blue heart and I'm like, yeah, I see you.

00:39:08   That's red heart for loved ones. Shrugging man.

00:39:12   Yeah. Shrugging man. You shrugging man a lot. I do. Well, that's my, that's how I,

00:39:16   that's how I react to the world. Mike is like, okay. I don't know. Right.

00:39:21   It is an adequate depiction of mental state. I do that a lot of like, I don't know why this

00:39:27   happened. I do the wink a lot. I enjoy the shush emoji because you often are ironically,

00:39:34   but I do enjoy that. Sometimes the detective is on here because there's that like,

00:39:40   I'm searching for clues. It's usually again, ironically where somebody.

00:39:44   I like detective. Detective is a really, really good emoji. I use that.

00:39:47   Pretty versatile too. Right. Like sometimes we'll get, we'll get a conspiracy email and I will use

00:39:54   the detective emoji. I'm like, Oh, they've got it figured out now. One that I'm intrigued by is

00:39:59   actually the one below the detective emoji, which is the big smiling face of the teeth and the tiny

00:40:04   round eyes. Yes. That one is weird looking to me, that emoji. I don't like that emoji very much.

00:40:10   It's very straightforward. Honestly, I think that's the one I use with my mom.

00:40:15   Cause it's like, it's very clear. My mom, by the way, just as a side note,

00:40:19   my mom does not use the standard smiley emojis at all. She uses the cat set. Oh, the worst set.

00:40:25   It's not my favorite, but she is all of them are cat emojis. I don't like the smiley cat and the

00:40:33   hard-eyed cat. She uses all those. I don't use those, but yeah, no cat set is bad. Like, uh,

00:40:37   I don't like that one. I honestly, this is one of those things like, why is it there? Like,

00:40:42   why do we need that? I definitely share the rolling eyes emoji with you a lot. Yes.

00:40:48   I mean, the wink emoji is probably the one I use the most because I try to use that to,

00:40:52   to get like some tone of voice across of like, yeah, yeah. It's a good one. I mean,

00:40:59   that's what's so great about emoji in general, right? It's like how they can help you communicate

00:41:03   in text just like way more effectively. And because it can help you convey a tone that

00:41:08   you otherwise might not be able to do. Exactly. Which is why I use the wink emoji a lot.

00:41:12   Upside down smiling face emoji. I use that, that, that, uh, that came from, uh, I noticed, uh, our

00:41:20   friend Joe Rosen steel using that a lot. And I just, I really love it because it's the right.

00:41:24   It's the, I don't even know how to describe it. I actually used it the other day. Uh,

00:41:30   Lauren and I were texting and there was like, how do you even express this? And I just sent

00:41:34   back the upside down. She's like, yeah, that's it. Which is like, oh brother. Right. It's a,

00:41:38   it's, it's a frown, but it's a, it's also a, like, I'm trying to smile through it, but

00:41:43   it's another very versatile one. I think like it has, it has a lot of potential uses, which

00:41:51   I think those are the best emoji really when you can kind of take them and turn them into something.

00:41:56   It's like, that's simply for salute. I feel like salute is very versatile. I do have some questions

00:42:00   about a couple of emoji. All right, sure. Go ahead. Saxophone. I have no memory of sending the

00:42:08   saxophone emoji to anyone at any point. I'm sure if I did, it was in the context of nonstop bangers

00:42:13   involving sax solos, probably Baker street. Yep. One of the, right. It's nonstop bangers.

00:42:20   Just one of the old time. Or, or other, or it was with Jamie and it's some other yacht rock related

00:42:26   sax solo. But again, like the New Zealand stuff, I probably sent it once like three months ago and

00:42:33   it's in my frequently used because I don't frequently use this. I want to say I have a

00:42:38   thumbs up. I use that a lot. I use the eyes a lot. In fact, when I first log into discord,

00:42:42   before we're about to stream live, I put the eyes in the discord as like, we're waking up and paying

00:42:47   attention. We're about to be live. And the curling stone is one that I get a lot of use out of because

00:42:52   I actually do that. And there's an emoji for it, which is pretty awesome. Right? Like the sport,

00:42:58   the sport that I, you can't, you can't miss it. You know what it is, the curling stone. It's right

00:43:02   there. It's a really, really good emoji. But I also want to know the poop emoji. Do you use the poop?

00:43:08   I hate the poop emoji. I hate that it exists. I can tell you why, because it's in the same row

00:43:13   as the New Zealand flag and the Kiwi. We were having drinks at a restaurant in Christchurch

00:43:22   and the water bottle that they brought us, so they brought a, basically an old gin bottle,

00:43:31   I think it is, full of water and two glasses for our water. Plus we were having beers.

00:43:35   And it was silent pool gin, but somebody had rubbed the letters off of it. So it said silent poo.

00:43:42   And I took a picture of it. And then I, I captioned it with the poop emoji because it was the

00:43:49   silent poo. Cause I thought it was good wholesome fun. Good wholesome fun. The poop emoji in that

00:43:56   context, but I don't use the poop emoji either. There's a salute emoji in there. I'm starting to

00:44:00   use the salute emoji a little bit more because I have learned about its uses from you and Steven

00:44:05   and Federico. And now I'm, I can see the context of the salute emoji. But you also provided another

00:44:14   image. Slack. Yes. It's actually, and I think Slack does it that it's frequently used in the Slack,

00:44:21   not by you. Cause I don't use the troll emoji in the relay Slack, but Casey List does. And so

00:44:28   the troll emoji is in there. However, what I will say is, I want to point out, so I use emoji in

00:44:34   Slack a lot and that's my primary use. And also I'm one of the people in the world, other than

00:44:39   Jeremy Burge, who has commissioned emoji art. So two of my favorite emoji that I use in Slack

00:44:46   are the Skeletor emoji, which there's a cartoon Skeletor emoji. And now there's an Apple style

00:44:54   photo realistic Skeletor emoji. I'd say the Skeletor emoji is often used like the upside

00:44:59   down smiling face emoji by me. And then there's the reference acknowledged emoji, which used to

00:45:06   be a picture of Tony Sindelar, our friend who says reference acknowledged and has popularized

00:45:10   it among many people I know. But also now I commissioned an emoji of Tony Sindelar

00:45:15   as an emoji pointing in order to acknowledge your very clever reference that you made.

00:45:23   So those I also use a lot. All three of those emoji are in the relay FM members discord too.

00:45:29   They are. And people use them. I hate the iOS Skeletor one. It is very upsetting to me.

00:45:38   I find it very upsetting. It is disturbing. But the cute Skeletor is also available.

00:45:44   That is fantastic. That is a great one. But the one that actually looks like a real skull.

00:45:50   It's basically the skull emoji except yellow and in the purple hood to be extra. It's Skeletor.

00:45:56   I think it's the yellow that freaks me out to be honest.

00:45:59   Well, yeah, I mean, it's Skeletor. I love it though, because it's I believe those were done

00:46:04   by the artist. It was actually referred to me by Jeremy who's done art for Emojipedia. And I was

00:46:10   like, I just want to do custom commissions of emojis. And then the artist was like,

00:46:14   this is awesome. Let's do it. And so now Tony Sindelar has his own emoji of himself

00:46:20   making the finger reference acknowledged. And it's great. There are a few others in here,

00:46:25   obviously in Slack, especially because they shorten it to tada. The party popper emoji is

00:46:30   very successful, which is great. Somebody celebrating something, you throw that in there

00:46:33   as an emoji reaction. It's going to be great. I do use the skull emoji sometimes. It really just

00:46:38   sort of means either I'm dead or this will kill me. One of those. I use the scream emoji a lot in

00:46:46   both cases. That's the, whether it's seriously, oh my goodness, or it's an actual, like,

00:46:52   this is what makes me want to scream. I throw that in there a lot too. Those are good. And I want to

00:46:57   point out that I have the lion emoji in here. I mostly, there are two uses of the lion emoji

00:47:03   recently. One of them is that we just did a total party kill that won't come out as is our tradition

00:47:09   for several years. But we just played an adventure where I turned into a lion and menaced a bunch of

00:47:15   casino goers, which is great. So while we were doing that adventure, there was a lot of lion

00:47:21   emojis going around. And the other thing is that at certain times, Stephen Hackett looks like a lion

00:47:24   and we use it to refer to Stephen Hackett. - Very fair.

00:47:27   - When he's in a certain hair configuration, he's very lion-y and he looks just like that emoji.

00:47:33   - I think he's aiming towards that right now, which I'm excited about.

00:47:36   - And finally, I want to say for an emoji that does not get used a lot, and I love it,

00:47:41   and I also use it in very specific contexts to suggest frustration or somebody being monstrous,

00:47:48   is the Japanese goblin? Is that right? No, no, it's the Japanese ogre, or just ogre,

00:47:56   depending on what set you're in. It is this, it's like a devil. It's like a red-faced monster.

00:48:04   - It is horrifying. - Also horrifying to you.

00:48:05   - But it's good though. - Yeah, it's, I don't like the one in Discord is bad.

00:48:11   The one in Apple's set is so good. It's just this big face and he's like, "Ha ha ha!"

00:48:19   in a sort of evil menacing way, but also fun. I love that emoji so much. And when the moment

00:48:24   comes to use, ogre, I am there, right? Like I know the instant somebody says something, I'm like,

00:48:30   it's ogre time, right? Like I know the exact feeling about this.

00:48:36   - I've got to say, on the Emojipedia website right now, looking at this, and there is

00:48:40   some here that I really like, and I've got to say the Microsoft Teams one is excellent. It's

00:48:45   like animated on the Emojipedia website, and it is actually ha ha ha-ing. It's great. I love the new

00:48:52   Microsoft style of this like cartoony, like I really like the new emoji that Microsoft has been

00:48:59   working on. I think it's really, really cool looking. I know it's stylized a lot.

00:49:03   - I do not appreciate the whackification, the goofinesses of the Microsoft Teams emoji of the

00:49:11   ogre. The ogre is meant to be a little more menacing, I think. A little more like he's,

00:49:18   like, "Am I in on the joke with the ogre or is he going to eat me?" And that's what the Apple

00:49:23   one conveys. Microsoft Teams is more like he's a rubber toy of an ogre.

00:49:28   - Sure.

00:49:30   - But anyway, that's a favorite of mine that does not get used very much. I enjoy the ogre.

00:49:36   - Happy World Emoji Day.

00:49:38   - Happy World Emoji Day to all and happy burjis to all.

00:49:46   - This episode is brought to you by Electric. Turning a small business into an empire takes

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00:51:47   We're back to the B-Tails, and this time in a public version.

00:51:51   Oh, public B-Tails.

00:51:52   The public B-Tails. You've had a ton of coverage on 6 Colors. I think you add an article for every

00:51:59   single beta available, plus a like overarching platforms.

00:52:03   Yeah, we wrote a lot of, Dan and I wrote a lot of stories there too. I appreciate you mentioning it

00:52:08   on Connected last week, which I was listening to on my travels, that you didn't just say

00:52:13   Mac stories, you said it on 6 Colors too. Oh, that's very nice. We did, we wrote a lot of things

00:52:18   about betas. We did, yeah, because the public betas are out as of last week. The general public

00:52:24   can just say, give me a beta. You get it? Just like that?

00:52:28   Your focus was mostly on Mac OS and iPad OS. That's where you wrote your articles.

00:52:36   Yes, and I wrote half of the platform features articles too. Yeah, right.

00:52:41   Was this a year where it was easy to write about them? Were you having to struggle to find things

00:52:46   to write about? Oh no, no. In fact, I mean, just very much the idea that you write, because the

00:52:55   way this works is Apple says they're coming out in July, but you don't know when. And you've got some

00:52:59   idea that like they usually do it this particular week, but you don't actually know. And you spend

00:53:04   time recovering from WWDC and then you are like, I guess I should install the betas on and live with

00:53:09   them and you start to live with them. And then you do that for a while and you say, it's now July and

00:53:14   they're coming soon. I better start writing. And the beauty of it being the public beta cycle is

00:53:19   you can write about the marquee features and then have a section at the end of your story that's

00:53:23   like, and there's a bunch of other stuff too. Talk to you later and not cover it or not cover it in

00:53:29   as much detail. So I got to all the features that I felt I had time to get to and energy to get to

00:53:36   in depth. And then the rest of them, I mentioned a lot of them in passing with maybe a few brief

00:53:42   thoughts. And then I'm, 'cause I'm saving it. I've got time for the, over the summer to write

00:53:48   a more full accounting of it. 'Cause I will write a full review of everything in the fall when these

00:53:54   things ship. So I, but I did not feel like I was scraping, like iPadOS, honestly. iPadOS, I

00:54:03   literally wrote the morning when we were waiting for the public beta to drop. I just, we were ready

00:54:09   to go and I was sitting at my desk and I thought, oh well, I guess I should write the iPadOS thing

00:54:13   right now. So that story didn't take me very long to write at all. And there's not a lot more than

00:54:18   what's in that story, but that's okay. Like that one, so that one was fairly easy 'cause there's

00:54:24   not a lot in there. - Well, the iPadOS one is always complicated anyway, right? And it's why,

00:54:29   like, you know, with Federico's huge review, usually iPadOS is just a chapter of the iOS

00:54:34   review because everything that comes to iOS by and large comes to iPadOS. So you, like, there's a lot

00:54:39   of features already in there and then it's just about like, what is different? And so like really,

00:54:44   by and large, I think most years iPadOS is probably one of the easier ones to write about.

00:54:49   - I think we're at the point now where what you're writing about with iPadOS a lot of the time

00:54:54   is the new iPad iteration of last year's iPhone feature. So those are unique to the iPad in that

00:55:01   they're not quite implemented the same way as they are on the iPhone and you need to kind of like

00:55:05   talk about why. And then in this case, there were some tweaks to Stage Manager that make it

00:55:09   appreciably better that I got wrote about and I made a little video of the feature where there's,

00:55:16   so as people know, or maybe do not know, one of the frustrations that I had with Stage Manager

00:55:24   and that many other Stage Manager users had is that it was finally an interface that lets you

00:55:29   freely position windows on the iPad, except not freely. Like why, but why? Why would you do this

00:55:35   and then not do it? And so like you put a window somewhere and it goes, oh, I don't want the window

00:55:38   there. I want it over here a little bit. And the one that bothered me was I like to have one

00:55:42   window front and center and then sometimes I like it just to have like one window over on the side

00:55:46   and it'd be like, oh, you've got two windows. You probably want them side by side. It's like, no,

00:55:49   I don't. But in iPadOS 16, that was what they would do. They would just force them to be side

00:55:55   by side and I couldn't drag one into the middle and leave it there. New Stage Manager, the grid is

00:56:02   much tighter. So even though you can't exactly position windows, it feels like you can. It used

00:56:08   to be you'd put it like, I'll put it here. And in 16, the system would be like, how about a little

00:56:14   down into the left? And now it feels like when you say, I'll put it here, it just stays there,

00:56:19   even if maybe it goes a little bit down into the left, but only a teeny tiny bit. Like it's

00:56:22   snapping to a grid, but the grid is so small, so high density that it doesn't feel like it's moving

00:56:29   your window, even if it is a little tiny bit. But the big thing is it is going to honor your choices.

00:56:35   So I can work with a main window right in the center, which is where I'm writing, and have like

00:56:39   a single reference window that's like a PDF or a webpage off to my left, which is usually what I do.

00:56:44   And it keeps it there instead of saying, no, these should be side by side. Because mentally,

00:56:49   I like writing in the center of my screen, not on one half of it. I just don't like working that way.

00:56:57   Everybody can, if you can choose, everybody can choose differently. But in Stage Manager in 16,

00:57:03   you couldn't choose. So that's all great. And then they did this other thing that's very funny,

00:57:08   which is, and I know we've talked about this over the course of this whole debate about,

00:57:11   should there be windows in the iPad? One of the challenges that Apple has is they know that on

00:57:16   the Mac, people lose windows. More novice and even intermediate users, they lose windows and they

00:57:22   don't know how to find them. And Apple has built keyboard shortcuts and system features and trackpad

00:57:28   gestures to show all your windows or show all the windows in your particular app. And the fact is,

00:57:33   people still lose windows. Where'd that window go? And the answer is it's behind other windows,

00:57:37   right? So you can't see it. And out of sight, out of mind. So they're coming to implement windows on

00:57:42   iPad and they're like, all right, we can't let them lose their windows. And so what we got with

00:57:49   iPadOS 16 was this really heavy-handed window management thing that was like, you can't even

00:57:55   put a window in front of another window imbalanced because it's like, mm-mm, we're cleaning all that

00:58:02   stuff up. The window police were really on patrol in iPadOS 16. But part of the reason for that is

00:58:07   this idea that they didn't want this, especially since they don't have like gestures for this or a

00:58:14   window menu in the menu bar, 'cause there's not a menu bar, to like get people out of the hit,

00:58:20   the lost window problem. So in iPadOS 17, what happens if you click on a window and bring it to

00:58:27   the front and it completely covers another window? The answer is the back window peeks out the side

00:58:34   of the window, like it's leaning to the side going, hey, I'm back here. And it just sticks out

00:58:40   just a little tiny bit, but it sticks out and there's an animation and everything. I think

00:58:45   it's kind of adorable. Also, I think it's a very clever, carefully considered solution.

00:58:51   I also discovered that then if you grab the big window and move it around,

00:58:57   the little buddy window in the background will move along with the window and occasionally will

00:59:04   like pop to the other side and then pop back or pop to, it's like, I'm over here, no, I'm over here,

00:59:08   no, oh, now I'm back over here. And it will chase your window around the screen, but it's always

00:59:13   visible because it doesn't want you to lose it once you know that you left a window behind this

00:59:17   window. I like it, it's really good. And as a result, Stage Manager is vastly more usable

00:59:24   than it would have been before. The real last frontier that they need is to run it without

00:59:31   relying on the external screen, to have a true kind of lid closed mode where you don't have to

00:59:36   keep going back to the main, 'cause even if you run it in fake lid closed mode, which I know

00:59:42   Federico does, where you say, hey, if I cover the screen with the smart cover, don't lock the

00:59:48   display, there are times when the system is like, you need to go use the iPad screen now, if you're

00:59:55   on an external display, just you can't escape it. And they need to address that, 'cause I think

01:00:01   that that would help a lot, but yeah, otherwise it's a pretty good feature. So that was what I

01:00:05   spent. I spent a lot of time with iPadOS 17 and then I sort of like, on the morning of,

01:00:11   on July 12th, I just sort of let it all pour out. Also, a lot of the features that you say

01:00:16   as being in the iOS public beta, we this year decided to just do a story about the platform

01:00:23   features that are on iOS and iPadOS and macOS. And so that took actually some of the content

01:00:29   out of the iOS story and put it in that separate story. - My stickers, check-in, that kind of stuff,

01:00:35   right? Notes, those kinds of features moved. - Yeah, the password sharing, PDF, yeah, the stickers,

01:00:42   all of that stuff is in there, the autocorrect, that stuff. - Was there any, like, aside from

01:00:48   the things you mentioned, any other favorite features across the betas that you've tried

01:00:51   that are really calling out to you, things that you're really enjoying or things that you see

01:00:55   potential for upon full developer adoption? - Well, I like the widgets a lot. I have not

01:01:04   seen enough widget interactivity to make a decision about that. I know there are some betas out there,

01:01:11   but it seems awfully promising to have interactive widgets. - I've also seen videos from developers,

01:01:19   right? Which I think gives you two of, like, some really, really interesting stuff that people are

01:01:23   building. - Yeah, well, imagine a calendar widget that instead of having a list actually had, like,

01:01:29   seven days, and you could tap on any of the days to see what was happening on that day, all without

01:01:34   launching your calendar app. That would be a good feature, right? That is a sort of, like, base-level

01:01:39   productivity feature. Or a lot of these, like, my Fantastic Cal widget, a lot of these widgets,

01:01:44   weather widgets, have this, you know, they have, like, 10 different widget styles. It's like, oh,

01:01:49   you could show this, or you could show this, or you could show this. And I keep thinking Carrot

01:01:52   weather is like this, too. It's like, maybe, imagine this, a widget that had some buttons on it

01:01:59   that let you toggle between hourly and daily, for example, right? That's a, oh, that's nice,

01:02:06   nice idea, right? - Rather than needing a stack. - Not to have to have separate ones, right? A stack

01:02:10   with the different widgets in it. Exactly. So, I think that stuff is good. My PDF tests were pretty

01:02:18   successful. I think that that's gonna be, again, incredibly boring feature. - So, definitely,

01:02:23   it is a really boring feature until you need it, right? And then it's gonna be great. - And then

01:02:27   somebody emails you a PDF, and you're like, ah. Or you got a paper form you're supposed to email

01:02:33   back, and you're like, um. The answer is you take a picture of it, and then it autofills it for you.

01:02:37   Like, that's so, it's so great. So, there's a lot of, I mean, there's a lot of little stuff. This

01:02:43   is the story of these OS releases. I kind of love it. I kind of love it that there are not, like,

01:02:49   here's a huge earth-shattering feature that's going everywhere, and it's gonna change your life

01:02:54   forever. That's not this release, but there's a lot of little stuff, including a bunch of stuff

01:03:01   that we've wanted for a year or two, or maybe even a few years, and other quality of life

01:03:09   improvement things that I've been very impressed by. So, whether it's the camera controls and being

01:03:16   able to take your studio display camera and zoom it in a little bit and pan it a little bit and

01:03:21   say this is where I want it, which you couldn't do before. I would talk about doing video controls in

01:03:26   the OS, and I got this chorus of people every time I would talk about it who'd be like, "Apple's never

01:03:31   gonna do that. Nobody, real people don't want video controls." And it's like, you know, I mean,

01:03:38   they were saying that because Apple didn't offer it, and so there are always people who are rushing

01:03:42   to explain why Apple didn't do something. Apple did it. Apple did it. Apple said, "You know what?

01:03:48   Video camera controls are a good idea," and they implemented it, and they're pretty nice. The auto

01:03:53   correct that they did, it's pretty nice. The password sharing is pretty good. There's a bunch

01:03:59   of that little stuff that is throughout that I like. Let's talk about boring things. As somebody

01:04:08   with a server in my house, the screen sharing app, which used to be interface-less. Essentially, you

01:04:15   would click on share screen in the Finder on a computer, and it would launch the screen sharing

01:04:20   app, but it had no interface. It's got an interface now, and they added this local network

01:04:27   high performance mode where you can theoretically edit video via screen sharing and edit audio via

01:04:34   screen sharing, which kind of works in my testing, but still, screen sharing. Who was lining up with

01:04:44   the torches and the pitchforks being like, "Give us screen sharing!" And yet somebody at Apple was like,

01:04:49   "You know what? We can make screen sharing a lot better. Let's do that this time." And they did.

01:04:53   It's so much better. It's really good. It's that kind of release where you may not look at the

01:05:02   marketing page and go, "Oh, this is amazing." You may be like, "Whatever. I don't care." But I think

01:05:08   for a lot of this stuff, you're going to start using it, and there will undoubtedly be one, two,

01:05:12   three, four things that hit exactly where you live, where it doesn't have to be the most

01:05:19   earth-shattering feature in the world, but if you use screen sharing or if you get frustrated by

01:05:26   your webcam not being pointed quite right, all of these little things, you will be happy.

01:05:33   Also, I wanted to mention, and this is something that podcasts talk about a lot, Apple podcasts

01:05:41   especially, about Apple software that doesn't have the attention to detail it used to, it isn't as

01:05:46   whimsical as it used to be. I noticed several places in this OS where they made decisions,

01:05:53   the little window peeking out from behind other windows is one of them, where there were these

01:05:58   things that felt a little whimsical and also were nice touches that were probably unnecessary,

01:06:08   but were just pleasant and somebody did the extra work to make them pleasant.

01:06:14   One example I have of that is the stickers, the stickers in iOS, the fact that you can make them

01:06:20   holographic or bubble stickers, that's a nice little extra thing that wasn't needed, but I love

01:06:25   that it's there. Not necessary. Well, so here's the one that I think is the best representation

01:06:30   of this. In macOS Sonoma, they're unifying, optionally, unifying screensaver, wallpaper,

01:06:39   and lock screen. First off, I love this because I have a custom wallpaper and the lock screen was

01:06:46   always the generic OS lock screen. I hated it. It's like, "Why are you using my wallpaper for

01:06:52   the lock screen?" It does now. Uses the wallpaper for the lock screen. It's great.

01:06:55   But the screensaver thing, the story was like, "Oh, they brought the aerial screensavers from

01:06:59   Apple TV to macOS. Isn't that nice?" Yes, that's nice. But the way they did it is they organized

01:07:05   it in a different way where you can pick Hawaii or whatever. You can pick specific ones. You don't

01:07:09   have to just be like all nature. And there's a checkbox that says, "Use this as my wallpaper."

01:07:16   Because Apple has decided that every frame of these 4K videos is so beautiful that you could

01:07:21   use it as your wallpaper, which is funny, but I think probably accurate. It's still kind of funny

01:07:26   that they feel that way. They have that confidence. But the thing that blows me away, and this is the

01:07:29   unnecessary thing, is if you're using a screensaver as your wallpaper, the screensaver is going and

01:07:36   you unlock your Mac. What you would expect, I think, as a computer user, is that when you

01:07:43   unlock your Mac, either it would stop immediately and that would be your background, or it would

01:07:52   flicker from your video that was playing to a chosen frame from it. Neither of those things

01:08:01   happen. Instead, when you unlock from the screensaver, your interface comes up, the wallpaper

01:08:09   is still playing on the desktop, and it slows to a halt. It is an effect that is subtle, but it's

01:08:22   delightful, and it's completely unnecessary. Absolutely unnecessary, but so fantastic.

01:08:27   That's one of the reasons we love the stuff that they make. They make these choices.

01:08:32   Why even put the energy on that? Oh, because it's just nice.

01:08:35   There's a takeout there, I'm sure, that's like, "This is the stuff we were missing before,

01:08:42   and it's great that it's back by a grumpy person." Or the more positive way would be,

01:08:48   "This is the kind of stuff that makes us nod and be like, 'Oh, that's Apple.'"

01:08:51   Depending on how you're feeling about Apple today, you might be like, "Ah, more of this, please."

01:08:56   Or you might be like, "Yep, that's what they do." Either way, I was taken aback by how completely

01:09:04   unnecessary it was, and yet it's delightful. That, to me, is-- Look, not every feature can be like

01:09:12   that, but I think that's a quintessentially Apple moment of saying, "We need to take time to give

01:09:22   this the proper fit and finish," and saying, "Well, when they unlock, it'll just jump to a

01:09:28   keyframe," or, "When they unlock, we'll just stop it." Obviously, at some point, somebody looked at

01:09:33   that behavior and said, "It's unpleasant. What can we do to make this nicer?" And then somebody else,

01:09:39   or many people else, came up with the idea of, "What if we wait momentarily and then slow the

01:09:47   video, and it's like it eases to a stop, and then you're hovering in that one frame, and that's your

01:09:52   background?" It's just delightful. I think that's representative. I think these OS updates are all

01:09:58   really good. They're very gentle. They're not particularly disruptive. I guess that brings us

01:10:02   to the big question, which is, should anybody install them? I've kind of come around on this,

01:10:09   which is, Apple calls it a public beta. As far as I'm concerned, Apple thinks it's fine for you to

01:10:16   install them. Due diligence, you should probably check and see that some app that you're relying on

01:10:21   does not break under the beta before you use it. If you're going to lose your job, if you can't use

01:10:28   this app, and you install the beta and you can't use that app, you should check. Right? Check.

01:10:33   Check. For us, it's Audio Hijack. That's why I have a second computer now, so that I can,

01:10:38   for the summer, use Audio Hijack on computer number two while I'm using the beta on computer

01:10:43   number one. That's my due diligence there. I am not comfortable warning people away from these

01:10:49   betas like I used to. One, I've been using them for a few weeks. They're fine. Maybe the mobile

01:10:56   devices drain battery a little bit faster. Maybe not. Some of that is probably just the update to

01:11:00   the beta. Over time, I found my battery life is fine. I don't think it's worse, but your mileage

01:11:06   may vary. But, you know, Apple, I know it's called a beta, but it's a public beta. Apple makes these

01:11:14   for the public. So, if you want to go ahead, as long as you've checked and made sure that whatever

01:11:19   app you rely on, if you've got one, doesn't completely break. And there's a small list of

01:11:24   the ones that do out there. You can find it. But other than that, like, sure. I mean, if you want

01:11:32   to get access to this stuff, that's why they make a public beta. You're the public. Go forth in beta.

01:11:38   Can I give you some of my thoughts having used iOS for the last week?

01:11:43   Yes, please. So, I adore the new widgets that they brought in with the interactivity,

01:11:49   even just the ones that Apple has made. Like, the home widget absolutely 100% fixes

01:11:56   the complaints that we have with the control center toggles. They don't randomly change,

01:12:02   right? You can have a recommended one, or you can actually specifically say what you want to be in

01:12:08   each widget. So, you could have multiple widgets for different rooms or even like for whatever.

01:12:14   You could even have it for, like me, I could have different widgets for the studio and for home,

01:12:18   and they're not going to change on me. All right. I'm going to footnote this and say,

01:12:22   I tried this out. I put my number one used home item in a widget. It's my living room lights. And

01:12:31   what I do is I set the brightness and dimness of them. Doesn't work. Widget wants to tap it on and

01:12:40   off. And I should file a feedback about this. What you could do is make a scene. Well, yeah, but,

01:12:46   like, tap and hold. I get it that like that gesture is there to edit the widget. So, you can't

01:12:53   do that. But like, I want at least the ability to tap on the thing and have it bring up the slider

01:12:58   or bring up some presets or something. But because on off is not what I need. I need adjust brightness.

01:13:08   I need the slider. So, yes, I would have to create some scenes with it at different things.

01:13:13   >> Clunky, but will do the job. >> Again, okay, I appreciate the work around.

01:13:18   Doesn't change my point, which is Apple should solve this. There should be a better way to do

01:13:22   this. You should not be able to put a home item in a widget and say, oh, you wanted it to dim?

01:13:28   No, you can't. Like, they should solve that. Solve that problem, Apple.

01:13:32   >> Yeah. But I like the on off anyway, because that's mostly what I'm doing. But I agree. Like,

01:13:36   if I was trying to do that, it would be annoying. I love the shortcuts ones. I love that you can

01:13:41   have two actions on the little widget now, right? Like the smallest one. Little widget's got two

01:13:46   actions. Fantastic. >> Little widget has grown up so much.

01:13:49   >> So much. So proud. Gone to school now. >> Yeah. Yeah. Little widget goes to college.

01:13:55   I love it. >> Standby is so much better than I thought it was going to be. I love it. I now have

01:14:00   MagSafe docs. I bought the studio neat MagSafe docs. I have them in the studio here. Yes, it is

01:14:06   frustrating that I have to take my MagSafe pop socket off, but it's actually the feature is

01:14:10   worth it. Like, I actually really like the main views. So the one where you can set up widgets,

01:14:17   and then the photos one. I think they're both fantastic. They're configurable. I have an app

01:14:22   that works in this. So Timery has standby widgets. Awesome. Like right now, I'm looking at my phone,

01:14:29   and it's telling me that I have a timer set for upgrade and how long it's been on the left. And

01:14:33   then on the right, it's going between a clock that I like, a clock face that I like. It's in a stack

01:14:39   of also some photos, like an album of my choice. And then sometimes I can swipe over if I want to,

01:14:45   and I can see the photos screen, I guess, which goes between featured images. You can see nature,

01:14:53   cities, and people. And it just like gently changes. And I find it very delightful while

01:14:59   I'm recording to just have this little photo frame going. So I think standby is fantastic.

01:15:05   I like it. I do have some complaints. One of my complaints is that in that one view where you've

01:15:11   got the clock, they only have clocks with hands, and they don't have digital time. There's another

01:15:19   view that's got digital time. But if you want to have the time in the square, with another one with

01:15:27   a widget, you can't do that. You only can have clock faces with hands. And it doesn't make any

01:15:32   sense to me because in that view, I'm often not close enough to properly parse the hands. I just

01:15:41   want a number there. And the numbers in the other view, but not in that view. And what I really want

01:15:45   to do is put the time and a widget together, and it won't let me. So again, I should file a feedback.

01:15:52   - Well, also there will be many widgets that will be able to give you clocks, right?

01:15:55   - Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure. But again, like David Smith shouldn't have to. There are multiple

01:16:01   clocks with hands available there. And yet no numbers. Come on.

01:16:06   - No, that's a good point. That's a really good point.

01:16:08   - I can tell time, but sometimes I just want the numbers. It's far away. I want to see the number.

01:16:13   And a widget.

01:16:14   - The share sheet is horrifically broken for me, which is pretty funny. Most of the time,

01:16:20   I see share extensions for airdrop messages, mail, news, and books. I don't know why those

01:16:25   ones specifically. Notes is the one I'm looking for, which is not showing up anymore. So I can't

01:16:31   add things very easily to my show notes. And also shortcuts does a really bad job of appending to

01:16:36   notes. So like, this isn't great, but I know it will come back. Yeah, it just is what it is.

01:16:42   - I've seen some weirdness in there too. Not quite that weird, but like,

01:16:46   I've definitely seen some weirdness in there.

01:16:47   - The funny thing for me, Jason, is it has gotten worse. Like it was fine at the start.

01:16:52   Like I love these bugs where it's like, it starts out and there's no problem.

01:16:56   But then as you're using the beta, it's just like, and no changes happen to the beta,

01:17:00   things just stop working. And it's, who knows why.

01:17:02   - Yeah. I've noticed that airdrop is weird, right? Like airdrop, you tap it. And I've noticed that

01:17:08   there's this sort of like, I can't find anything. And you're like, work it out. And then it goes,

01:17:13   oh, oh, right. There's a computer right next to me. I'm like, yeah, you got it. You got there.

01:17:17   And I don't know why that is just a very weird delay. Although I was thinking, Mike,

01:17:21   and this is something I don't think we've talked about. Just I'm going to mention it here.

01:17:24   You know that the new feature where you can like tap to, or bring one phone next to another in

01:17:30   order to share contacts or set up an airdrop. I hadn't thought about it before in this way,

01:17:37   but this is when I had the, I had a moment of like, oh, that's why. And it's, they took the

01:17:43   ability to always see other people in airdrop away, right? That was one of those things that

01:17:49   you can turn it on for like 15 minutes to airdrop to anybody, but it's off. It's only your contacts

01:17:56   or nobody by default. This is the other part of that feature. This is the, so now I'm with

01:18:03   somebody. They're not in my contacts or whatever, and I want to airdrop them something. How do I do

01:18:07   that? And it used to be, you had to go to that setting or have that setting on all the time.

01:18:12   And the answer now is that there's a one-time airdrop privilege given by proximity. I hadn't

01:18:17   really thought about that before. And so that proximity thing is the solution to the, but what

01:18:23   if I want to airdrop something to people I don't know, and now you've turned off that feature. The

01:18:28   answer is bring them close to each other. And then it's the proximity. And then you saying, yes, I

01:18:35   will, is enough approval, enough for Apple to be confident that you're going to, that you've given

01:18:41   your permission essentially to receive something as opposed to it just being through the airwaves.

01:18:46   Anyway. You know, you're saying about airdrop. That's one of the places that I've been seeing

01:18:51   tip tips. I'm seeing them everywhere. This is the thing we spoke about. And I think it's actually

01:18:55   really good. Like reminders of features, explanations of settings. So I've seen like,

01:19:00   when I bring up a photo picker, it says, hey, this app can only see certain images because you said

01:19:05   that, right? That's one. And so you can change that feature. I saw one for airdrop where it's

01:19:10   like, hey, you can just bring your phone next to somebody else's phone. Like I am actually quite,

01:19:15   I mean, I'm impressed with Tipkit. I think it's doing a good job of surfacing features. And I hope

01:19:21   that they continue to put the effort into that because I think it is the solve for the problem

01:19:25   that we were talking about a number of weeks ago. I think it's actually doing it. Yeah. No, I think

01:19:30   having looked at that session, because it doesn't have to be right away, it can wait, it can, it can

01:19:35   spread them out. It can, you can actually say like, I know that I've got 15 different tips I could

01:19:40   show right now, but I can only ever show one tip every two days or whatever. It's smart enough to

01:19:45   do that. I really like that about it. You mentioned the photo thing. That's a feature that apps are

01:19:53   going to get, have to get updated, but I love it. Because in the end, what Apple first tried to do

01:19:58   is have this thing where it was sort of like, you could choose photos to put in a box and then the

01:20:03   app could see the photos you put in the box. And that saved you from having to give them access to

01:20:08   your whole library. The new system is you don't give the app permission to see any photos, but the

01:20:17   photo picker they bring up, the app can't see the photos in the photo picker. The photo picker is a

01:20:22   system photo picker and you pick the photos and then you press select or press okay or whatever.

01:20:29   And then those photos are handed back to the app. So, which is honestly how it should have been all

01:20:34   along. It was wild that you had that setting of like, allow access to all photos or just the ones

01:20:39   you choose. It's like, I don't know why. I did that in Slack at one point and then it was like,

01:20:44   literally, I would see the same three photos every time I tried to add a photo to Slack,

01:20:48   because it only had access to those three photos. I'm like, this is not what I want.

01:20:51   But how do you do that? And the answer is, I think that third-party apps are all going to basically

01:20:57   go to this model of saying, oh, you didn't give me permission to see all your photos,

01:21:02   so I'm going to throw up the system photo picker, pick photos, hand them back to me,

01:21:06   and it's more private that way and it's a better approach.

01:21:09   - I mentioned stickers earlier. I think that they're really fun and I like the way that

01:21:13   they've done them. I like that we have the emoji stickers, but it's not complete yet because

01:21:17   sticker tapbacks aren't working and that's when I know I'm going to use it more.

01:21:21   - Yes. I'll be able to bring in my reference acknowledged emoji as a sticker and then use

01:21:26   it as a tapback emoji. Amazing. - Yeah, I hadn't even thought of that.

01:21:29   - But it's not yet. Not there yet. - Yeah, I hadn't actually thought of

01:21:32   that, but you'll be able to have custom emoji. - I'll send you Scary Skeletor.

01:21:36   - Please. I'll look forward to it. The keyboard autocorrect is super good. I like the way it

01:21:41   feels, I like the way it looks and works. It's definitely more reliable. I like how it's,

01:21:47   the more I'm using it, I feel like it's getting way better at giving me the next words that I

01:21:52   might want to use or a full sentence. You just press the, it puts them in light gray, you just

01:21:56   press the space bar and it fills it all in. My expectation is it will just get better and better

01:22:01   and better as time goes on and it learns from me because that's what the system is supposed to do.

01:22:05   - Yeah, it's not perfect. I don't want to overhype it. It's a lot better. It's not perfect. You can

01:22:09   still make mistakes and all of that, but it's still a lot better.

01:22:12   - I'm still hitting mistakes that they said that they were going to fix of like,

01:22:16   it should be going back and correcting a word in a sentence once the sentence is complete. I feel

01:22:22   like there are sometimes there are things that are clearly an autocorrect change that when the

01:22:29   sentence is complete, that first word shouldn't say, or shouldn't have an apostrophe in it anymore,

01:22:34   right? Like where rather than where or something like that.

01:22:36   - Yeah, because it now knows what the sentence is and it knows that that's wrong.

01:22:39   - But I feel like it's not doing enough of that for me yet.

01:22:42   - Yeah. I have had great success with the thing that always bothered me, which is that it corrects

01:22:47   the correct thing to the wrong thing. And now I love the fact that I can tap on it and put it back

01:22:52   to what I actually typed, which is correct. Also, what I've found is that sometimes that underline

01:22:59   includes what I typed and other options that are close. So what if I type something and it's a

01:23:05   little bit wrong and then it autocorrects it to the wrong thing? When I tap that, it will give

01:23:11   me the thing I typed that's a little bit wrong and often it will give me the thing that's the

01:23:15   alternate correction that is what I typed. And I can go to that one. So that's all better too.

01:23:20   - The visuals for text selection, the cursor, all of that looks nicer too, more alive feeling,

01:23:27   like they've done a really good job with the UI of all of that. There is a problem though, Jason.

01:23:31   - Okay.

01:23:32   - With autocomplete.

01:23:33   - Oh, dear.

01:23:35   - The lol autocomplete for emoji, they've changed the emoji and they are bad choices.

01:23:42   So when you use to type lol in iOS 16, you would get three emoji that would appear in the

01:23:50   quick type bar. They would be face with tears of joy, so like the laughing with the tears coming

01:23:56   out, grinning squinting face and squinting face with tongue. I have a screenshot in the show notes

01:24:02   that shows all of these three. The new ones are winking face with tongue, so you're winking

01:24:09   sticking the tongue out, squinting face with tongue and rolling on the floor laughing.

01:24:14   - Who laughs with their tongue out?

01:24:16   - None of the, like the two that they've changed, they changed face with tears of joy and grinning

01:24:22   squinting face, replaced it with winking face with tongue, which is not even laughing. That's

01:24:26   not even laughing. One is literally ROFL, not LOL. The emoji is called rolling on the floor laughing

01:24:36   and you've made that the LOL emoji, which is too much, right? Like all you really want,

01:24:41   like for me, it was just those first two, like I would use face with tears of joy and grinning

01:24:45   squinting face. And I would just, I have a few things like this where I type the letters as a

01:24:52   quick to get the emoji. So like I type LOL and because I know I'm going to get a good emoji,

01:24:57   but now I'm getting bad emoji. They have changed it to inadequate emojis for LOL.

01:25:04   They've done a bad job with this change and I want them to change it back. I'm saying it here,

01:25:09   I will eventually file a radar if they don't change it. Maybe we'll be a new beta this week.

01:25:13   If this is the same, then I will file a radar for this one. Bad emoji, very well.

01:25:17   - My response to that all is upside down face.

01:25:21   - I would just say actually people in the Discord are saying they see different ones. Now that

01:25:26   doesn't make any sense to me. Why is that happening? But anyway, this is what I'm seeing.

01:25:32   So there is something going wrong. Maybe it's showing different emoji for different people,

01:25:35   but that's bad because they've chosen the wrong ones here. These aren't emoji that I use very

01:25:40   often. And so I don't know why they're here. Please fix.

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01:27:38   and Relay FM. Let's finish today with some ask upgrade questions.

01:27:43   The first one comes from Josh. If Intel continued to give Apple what they wanted so they never

01:27:53   needed to switch to Apple Silicon, do you think this would have changed the trajectory of the iPad

01:27:59   as a Mac replacement? A lot of ifs here. There's a lot of ifs.

01:28:05   But I want to get your temperature on this. My answer is no. My answer is no because

01:28:11   first off I dispute the question. I don't think that Apple went to Apple Silicon because

01:28:18   Intel gave Apple what it needed. I think that was much less the case than in any of the previous

01:28:23   processor transitions. I think it's more that Apple became more and more comfortable with their own

01:28:28   chip design, more comfortable with writing features, writing software for that chip, looked at their

01:28:34   Intel products and said, "Why do we still use Intel for this when we build our own chip that

01:28:39   can do this and do it better?" I think that that's primarily what drove Apple here is that they

01:28:44   already were making those chips. Why would they not? I think that, alternately, if Apple was like,

01:28:50   "We just want to keep the Mac on Intel," I think that's maybe what was happening earlier

01:28:53   when they were less committed to the Mac going forward before they had that roundtable

01:28:58   moment and that they were viewing the Mac as a legacy platform, which would stay on Intel and

01:29:05   keep doing what it was doing, at which point the iPad was going to be more of that Mac replacement.

01:29:13   I think I can't pick apart this question because I think the path where Apple kept the Mac on Intel

01:29:19   is the path where the iPad is a Mac replacement. But I don't think it has much to do with what

01:29:28   Intel gave Apple. I think in the end, Apple, one, looked at its chip design and said, "These are

01:29:34   great. We could do these for Macs too." And two, decided that the Mac was something that they didn't

01:29:39   want to just put in the parking lot, but they actually wanted to make appreciably better by

01:29:45   leaning into the fact that they made all these other devices. They're all mobile devices. Let's

01:29:50   point out the Mac is primarily a mobile device at this point. Three-quarters of Macs sold,

01:29:54   roughly, our laptops. So they looked at that and said, "Well, we're a mobile device company,

01:30:02   essentially, and we excel at this. So let's take the Mac and make it this great new thing instead

01:30:07   of parking it." And by doing that, the iPad fell by the wayside as a Mac replacement. So

01:30:13   I mean, that's my answer. I question some of the premise, but I do think Josh is getting to

01:30:18   something here, which is, I think that's the decision point. From the outside, as an outside

01:30:22   observer, it feels like that's really the fork in the road, where they decided to not keep the Mac

01:30:27   as an Intel compatibility old platform, and instead bring it into Apple Silicon and more

01:30:35   aggressively update it and update its features and bring the iOS features over to it and all of that.

01:30:40   And that's where we are now. Yeah, I wanted to, I knew that there was a lot of jumps that we had

01:30:45   to do, right, to kind of talk about this because it is naturally, it's a thought exercise, right?

01:30:52   But I wanted to bring it in today because I thought that it actually dovetailed quite nicely

01:30:56   with the conversation around the Mac roundtable of what was the iPad's timeline then, right?

01:31:04   If or how would that have potentially been changed? Like, I don't know. I mean, maybe the iPad was

01:31:11   supposed to step up a bit more than it has. Yeah, I think there was probably a moment where they

01:31:18   shifted effort into the Mac, and probably what happened is the effort into the iPad as a priority

01:31:23   was reduced at that point, right? Because you got to get that from somewhere. And if the Mac is

01:31:28   really kind of end of life, then you would scramble, I think, more to make the iPad a Mac

01:31:35   replacement. And the stuff we've seen would have been faster and would have been amped up. So not

01:31:40   only your desktop class apps and Final Cut and Logic and all this, I think there would have been

01:31:49   more stuff like that poured into the iPad side if they were like, "Really, the Mac is only going to

01:31:54   be out there until 25 or something like that. And it's going to be diminishing in sales, and we're

01:32:00   just going to slap Intel processors into it. And it's going to be for legacy computing, but we're

01:32:05   going to build the new platform." And it would have been a Final Cut Pro X kind of thing where

01:32:09   they're like, "Old one's right over there, but we're building the new one over here. Be patient."

01:32:13   People weren't patient. And then in a few years, it'll be something that's perfectly suitable

01:32:18   for some, and people would still be unhappy with it. I mean, that's what would have happened. But

01:32:22   instead, we veered off. And I think as somebody who loves the Mac, I think it's a great decision

01:32:28   to say the Mac is not a legacy platform. The Mac will continue to grow and change and improve.

01:32:32   And as we said a couple of weeks ago, part of that decision is doing things like making it very

01:32:39   difficult to make a Mac Pro that makes sense. But they made that decision, and here we are.

01:32:43   I'll say this, if they had not made that decision, we'd still have an Intel Mac Pro, I guess? I don't

01:32:49   know. I guess maybe we wouldn't. We'd only have an iMac Pro at that point, a Xeon iMac Pro, and that

01:32:54   would be the high-end Mac. I really wish that it was possible to live out that timeline, like

01:32:59   really to know what was going to go on, like what was the plan. Man, that would have been...

01:33:04   Just like I'd love to see the fascinating alternate history. Mike Hurley in the Mac multiverse of

01:33:09   madness. Or the multiverse of makness? Yeah, the multiverse of makness. Multiverse of makness,

01:33:14   yes. I like that. Rob asks, "With iPadOS 17 getting lock screen widgets, how long before an iPad

01:33:22   gets an always-on display?" I mean, it's within the next year. I reckon one of the key drivers

01:33:28   for the OLED iPad that is supposedly coming within the next year is tying in with this. It might be...

01:33:36   I mean, honestly, it's probably why it's in 17, because before iOS 18, there will be an OLED iPad.

01:33:44   Yeah, I'm willing to hedge and say... Because remember, we had OLED iPhones and they didn't

01:33:51   do always-on, right? So I'm willing to hedge a little bit, but I feel like my hedge is basically

01:33:57   like, maybe it's only always-on in Nightstand. Something like that, right? It's only on when

01:34:03   it's plugged in. I mean, they could do an LTPO display on an iPad, like why not? So, but I think

01:34:10   so. I think that this is all lining up, right? Where it's like, you got those widgets on there,

01:34:14   and then you do an OLED iPad, and then you can see the lock screen widgets all the time. But

01:34:19   I also wonder about Nightstand, right? Do you bring Nightstand over at that point too?

01:34:23   Which would be kind of nice, but at the very least, the lock screen widgets, yeah. Yeah,

01:34:27   I think so. I don't think Nightstand... Because I think Nightstand requires the charging as part of

01:34:35   it, right? I feel like it's true. And so, and I think they do that because it is showing more

01:34:41   than an always-on display shows, which is why they're like, things are continually moving.

01:34:46   Yes. And so I think that's why they want it to be like in conjunction with the charging. And it's

01:34:51   about, well, will the iPad get mag safe? Should do, I think, but I don't know. Yeah, I don't know.

01:34:58   Last question. This one we've had in our document for a while, and I just thought it would be

01:35:02   interesting to bring up right now. Jack asks, do either of you use third-party keyboards on

01:35:07   your iOS devices? Nope. I used to. I used to use Gboard because the autocorrect was better,

01:35:13   but then Apple's autocorrect got better. And I have used TextExpander before, but now like

01:35:20   most of the apps that I really want TextExpander in, they integrate with really. And yeah,

01:35:25   third-party keyboards just never really got that full support that they should have to be

01:35:30   completely effective. And again, it's like over time, one of the reasons I used to use Gboard

01:35:35   because I love the swipe typing, but then Apple added swipe typing to the keyboards. It's like,

01:35:39   well, I have less and less needs for an external keyboard now. Yep. If you would like to send us in

01:35:46   your feedback, your follow-up, or questions for the show, go to upgradefeedback.com. Also go to

01:35:52   sixcolors.com where you'll be able to read Jason's work. Go and check out all of the wonderful first

01:35:58   looks that Dan and Jason put together over at sixcolors.com. If you want more, you want videos

01:36:04   and imagery that goes along with some of the stuff we've spoken about today. You can also hear

01:36:09   Jason's other shows at the incomparable.com and here on Real AFM. I can't wait for the next

01:36:14   episode of Downstream because I feel like Hollywood is imploding right now. And I can't

01:36:18   wait to hear what you and Julia have to say about it. There's a lot going on. There's so much going

01:36:22   on. I listen to so many podcasts. I listen to an emergency podcast right now. It's like a,

01:36:28   it's like a thing. You can listen to my other shows here on Real AFM. You can check out my

01:36:32   work at cortexbrand.com. You can find Jason and I on Mastodon and Threads. Jason is at J Snell.

01:36:38   I am at iMike, I M Y K E. You can find the show on Mastodon as @upgrade on relayfm.social. You'll

01:36:45   be able to find video clips of the show there. Also on TikTok and Instagram where we are @upgraderelay.

01:36:51   I think there's going to be some pretty good ones from this episode. So I recommend that you go and

01:36:55   check them out. Thank you to our members who support us with Upgrade Plus. You can get longer

01:36:59   ad-free versions of the show by going to getupgradeplus.com. And thank you to our sponsors

01:37:04   this week, ZocDoc, Notion and Electric for their support of the show. But as always, most of all,

01:37:11   more than anything else, thank you for listening. Until then, say goodbye to Jason Snow.

01:37:16   Until when? Next time. I always say until then. It's just how I say it, you know, sometimes you've

01:37:23   got to feel it's like a bookend, you know, like I say like until next time at the start and then

01:37:29   it's until then, you know, it's got to think about it that way. Okay, until then everybody. Bye.

01:37:41   Bye.

01:37:41   Bye.

01:37:42   Bye.

01:37:42   Bye.

01:37:43   Bye.

01:37:43   Bye.

01:37:44   Bye.

01:37:44   Bye.

01:37:45   Bye.

01:37:45   Bye.

01:37:46   Bye.

01:37:46   Bye.

01:37:47   Bye.

01:37:47   [ Silence ]