The Talk Show

382: ‘What’s Happening‽’, With Craig Hockenberry


00:00:00   Craig, I, it felt like six months is a good time to check it out.

00:00:03   Yeah, it's been a hell of a six months. Yeah, those have an anniversary. This is our bi-annual,

00:00:11   Twitter anniversary. Isn't bi-annual is one of those words, like bi-weekly, bi-monthly, those...

00:00:18   I never know. No, I think... Is it, is it, is it being twice or every other? I think it's one of those

00:00:24   literal holes in the English language where it means both. Like, bi-annual means like every six

00:00:31   months and it means every two years. Yeah, it's like you pick it up out of context. Yeah,

00:00:35   there's all sorts of funny entire books written about the oddities of the English language,

00:00:41   but that's, that's one that has to be considered a bug. But anyway, we're doing it six months. I

00:00:45   don't want to wait two years. Yeah, well, yeah, whatever we're going to call it may not be around

00:00:52   in two years. When, when last you were on in January, the wounds were fresh, Elon Musk. Well,

00:01:00   and we, I believe we spent the whole episode not calling him out by name. You, you're certainly

00:01:04   free to, to call him phony Stark or... Yeah, yeah. What was, what was Charles Foster Musk

00:01:12   I came up with this week I thought was pretty good. Well, I always thought the CF stood for,

00:01:16   stood for clusterfuck. Charles Foster. Yeah, yeah. Oh, this is right. This is a PG rated show.

00:01:28   No, not really. It's been a while since anybody's complained. I feel like what happened. The

00:01:33   profanity is pretty low. There was a, there was a thing. Yeah, yeah. And if it's in context,

00:01:38   it's fine. Well, but there was a, there was a thing. You know, what's funny is you get older.

00:01:45   Everything seems like it was just a couple of years ago and it's, it was probably like 10

00:01:50   years ago. I don't know. But at some point early on in this incarnation of my podcast,

00:01:55   I got a very, very friendly, very friendly note from somebody at Apple podcasts,

00:02:02   truly friendly. And I think it speaks to my sort of weird, unique stature in the Apple world.

00:02:08   Maybe some other podcasts wouldn't have gotten the hands-on treatment I got,

00:02:11   but that they had gotten just a handful, they said, of comments from people saying that they

00:02:16   were playing my podcast in their car and the kids were there and there were some curse words. And

00:02:20   that if I just need per episode, an explicit tag, and if I needed help figuring out the RSS syntax,

00:02:28   I was like, I got it. I know. And they were like, yeah, I thought you did, but I actually,

00:02:33   yeah. But anyway, how's it, how are you feeling about it? The wounds were fresh in January. Now

00:02:40   it's, I feel like the scabs are gone. The wound's healing. I mean, what do you, what?

00:02:47   Yeah. I mean, I'm glad that, I'm glad it's all behind us. I mean, it really is. And once we got

00:02:52   through the whole refund thing and everything, I mean, it's been a pretty serious hit to our

00:02:57   software income. Roughly about a third of our income just like disappeared. So that's something

00:03:04   that we're dealing with and it makes me nervous. To be honest, the thing that we love is in danger.

00:03:12   But I think it's kind of playing out how I thought it would play out.

00:03:19   It's surprising how extreme it has gotten. But yeah, I concluded that original blog post

00:03:29   saying that it was going to become a $44 billion version of MySpace,

00:03:34   which is kind of on that trajectory. Well, there has to be a part of you. Again,

00:03:39   it was like when I had Christian Seelig on a couple of episodes ago.

00:03:42   And I love that episode, by the way. That was really great.

00:03:45   Well, I honestly could just hats off to him, really. I honestly, to me, as a lesson in

00:03:53   the attitude to face adversity with it just blows my mind. But his upbeat attitude

00:04:01   in the face of effectively 100% loss for his business in software, I would not 100 because

00:04:07   he's got the Pixel Pal's side app, but certainly large majority, right? Yeah. Again, I don't even

00:04:14   mean to laugh with you guys. You're talking about a third of icon factory software business

00:04:19   just zapped away. But part of you has to be thinking, well, the upside is at least he just

00:04:28   ripped the bandaid off and it was over and it was as tumultuous it was as bad as it is financially,

00:04:36   at least you're out of it. Whereas if this was still this sort of demaculies was still

00:04:41   hanging over your head, if he hadn't done it six months ago, you'd still be thinking he'd do it

00:04:46   any moment. Right. Right. Let's just say he had waited another year or nine months or seven months.

00:04:56   What if he did it next month or something like that instead of at the end of last year?

00:05:00   This would not have been a very good six months to have been a Twitter developer, even if being

00:05:06   a Twitter app developer, we're still a thing, right? Well, look at the instability of the API,

00:05:12   right? And it's like you were complaining the other day about your tweet thingy.

00:05:18   Yeah. Right. And it just stops working. Right. And you have no idea why. And you have nobody you can

00:05:22   contact as why is it not working? And yeah, the thing that cracks me up is these people are paying

00:05:27   $42,000 a month for API access. They don't get any support either. Good luck.

00:05:32   All right. So let me fill listeners in on this and we'll take too long. But I wrote my

00:05:41   10, 12, 15 years ago, I wrote my own little script that I run on my server is every five minutes,

00:05:47   it's a cron job. And the at daring fireball Twitter account gets posts and the script is

00:05:54   very simple. I shouldn't write any programs, frankly, but I enjoy it as a hobby. And the

00:06:00   script is very simple. It reads my RSS feed actually reads the JSON feed. But now I've,

00:06:06   but regardless, it's like RSS and every five minutes it says, Hey, are there any new articles?

00:06:12   Oh, here's one form it into a tweet, post the tweet and keep a log of all the ones that have

00:06:20   already been tweeted. So it doesn't tweet them again and then wait five minutes and check again.

00:06:26   And it I've, I've been playing with the script for months because I updated it a couple months ago to

00:06:34   cross post to Mastodon in addition, I have at daring fireball at Mastodon dot social.

00:06:40   But a couple of months ago, Twitter said, this is nothing to do the, the, the clients thing for

00:06:47   Twitter, Riffic and tweet bod and all the other Twitter, Twitter, Twitter clients like that you

00:06:52   use that was at the end of last year, that was six months ago, but in April, they just for people

00:06:58   writing bots and other type of tools, anything else that uses the Twitter API, they're like,

00:07:03   you have to pay. And I'm like, well, I'm not going to pay. I mean, to hell with this.

00:07:08   And that's what that was most people's reaction. Right. I'm not paying for this.

00:07:12   And lo and behold, my script stopped working and I didn't know what to do. And then a couple of

00:07:17   weeks later, I didn't do anything. It just started working again. Like they turned the API points back

00:07:23   on and, and there's some kind of free tier that I'd currently at. And the limit is like 50 tweets

00:07:30   a day and a 1500 total a month. Cause what 50 times 30 is 1500. Yeah. So it's like, yeah,

00:07:38   you're way under the limits. Yeah. Right. I don't know what the busiest day and daring

00:07:43   fireball history is, but it's gotta be like 10 posts or something like that. Not 50. So

00:07:50   it's no worries. And even if I did post 51 items in a day, it would just wait till next tomorrow.

00:07:56   It would be able to, some of them just wouldn't be posted when they're fresh regardless.

00:08:00   Well, and people would say, oh, it's a busy day on bar during fireball. I'm just going to go to the

00:08:04   website. Right. Right. You can just figure it out. But yeah. Yeah. If I post, once I get to around

00:08:09   48, 49 posts, people might want to start checking on me. I'm a little worried about John, you know,

00:08:16   too much coffee. Yeah. Too much coffee. Anyway, about midway through this month, July,

00:08:23   I didn't even know that this speaks to when, when, when my script stopped working in April,

00:08:27   I noticed right away and people told me this time it stopped working. I started getting it,

00:08:32   but I didn't even notice until like a week later and nobody sent me anything. Or if they did,

00:08:37   I didn't notice it. Cause maybe it was on Twitter, which I'm not, I'm still there. I haven't left

00:08:42   Twitter. I just check it far less frequently. Cause I, I check Mastodon first I'm using blue

00:08:49   sky. I'm using threads a lot. And Twitter is last on that list now. It just is. And it's not

00:08:54   a political protest. It's just what I find useful for my time. Anyway, I, I just want to finish this

00:09:04   story. I was like, well, what happened? Why did my script stop working now? I'm using their version

00:09:09   1.1 API in my script. And they said that that was going away, but they said that was going away

00:09:15   months ago. But now when I log in, it says my free tier has access to these 1.1 endpoints and these

00:09:24   version 2.0 API endpoints. And in the 1.1 endpoints is sending a new tweet. So according

00:09:31   to their developer docs, it should still work, but I, it is. It's a mystery. It's a real mystery.

00:09:40   It's in the mystery since January 18th or whatever. I forget. It was the 18th or the 21st.

00:09:45   Right. But they, you literally can't find, they have this whole site developed. Well,

00:09:51   it's funny that it's still called developer.twitter.com. It's not updated

00:09:55   but they have a whole site. One guy from Twitter posting there.

00:09:59   And it's actually funny that you can, there's nowhere, they have a blog. They have like

00:10:06   dev developer.twitter.com/blog. Their last post is October of 2022. So literally before he bought,

00:10:14   I guess he fired everybody who ran the developer blog. All the support people were the first to go.

00:10:18   Yeah. Right. Developer relations, support, that just was like, eh, we don't need them.

00:10:24   Right. And so there's, turns out you do. My best, my working theory is that they've finally

00:10:31   turned off the 1.1 end points and I have to update my script to the version 2.0 ones,

00:10:37   which I don't think will be too much work, but you can't find a straight answer. And the funniest

00:10:42   part, the very funniest part is that when you go to the forums, cause that's one of the, when you

00:10:47   run into a problem like this, the first thing you want to do is find, is there, is, is it just me?

00:10:51   Is there anybody else? Yeah. Is anybody else getting hit by this? Yeah.

00:10:54   Lots of other people are getting hit by this. And the funniest part is that a bunch of them

00:10:58   are paying like tens of thousands of dollars. Exactly. Right. The people that are, that are like

00:11:05   in the, in the deep pockets, right. Have the same experience as the guys in the free tier,

00:11:12   which is shit. Professional full-time employees of big, big companies who are,

00:11:19   it's people with their real names, not some anonymous script kitty or whatever you call

00:11:24   them anymore. These are just professionals looking for an answer who are saying my company pays

00:11:28   $20,000 a month for API access and I can't. And why are they paying that kind of money

00:11:33   for API access? Because it's support systems and things like that. Companies found that Twitter

00:11:39   was a good way to do interactions with their customers. Right. And that's a big impact for

00:11:45   these people. Right. If that breaks and you can't reply to some customer and you're paying 42k a

00:11:51   month for that or 10k a month, there's a bunch of different tiers. So it's like, it's stupid.

00:11:57   It's just dumb all around. It is just incredibly dumb and just the arrogance is just off the

00:12:06   charts. I sent you a link. I mean, as we talked where we're what one, one week, I guess it was a

00:12:11   week ago tonight when he's just declared by Fiat that they'd be changing the name from Twitter to

00:12:17   X. It's been obviously not the smoothest renaming transition. I sent you a link where at their

00:12:26   headquarters, they still haven't taken down the Twitter side on the side of this.

00:12:29   Well, it's half disassembled. It's partially disassembled. It's like the service, right?

00:12:35   It's just hanging on. Yeah. So the old broken pieces, the old Twitter sign is half down. It

00:12:43   still says ER because while they were taking it down, the San Francisco police came to check if

00:12:50   they had a permit and of course they didn't. And so they said, well, then you got to stop. So they

00:12:56   just stopped. Still haven't finished that, but somehow have— They got rid of the Twit.

00:13:01   Yeah. But not really. They have erected a giant X on top of the building. Now the old Twitter sign

00:13:12   was on the corner of the building. It used to be like a clock or something too, wasn't it?

00:13:19   Yeah. It was a bit of a landmark and they worked with the city to make it nice.

00:13:25   Yeah. It was nice. Doug Bowman @Stop on Twitter, now he's on Threads. I forget what his title was,

00:13:32   but he ran Design for Twitter a while back. Stop Design was his blog back in the day.

00:13:38   I've known him for a long time, but he had a very nice thread on Threads talking about the sign and

00:13:44   because he led the design of it and how much care they put into it. And he was sad to see it taken

00:13:51   down. It really was that sign was something that they spent a lot of time trying to make right.

00:13:56   They wanted to do right by their brand, right by their company, but also right by the city of San

00:14:02   Francisco because it's, you know, 10th and Market is a big corner. Very, very busy part of San

00:14:08   Francisco if you've never seen it. Yeah. Very much so. If you've never been to San Francisco,

00:14:14   you almost can't miss it if you're downtown. Anyway, now they're putting a giant X on top

00:14:21   of the building and it flashes. It flashes and I'm telling you, I'll put this in the,

00:14:31   I'm making a note. I'm going to put it in the center.

00:14:33   Yeah. You got to see it to believe it. You think, "Oh, this is just a flashing sign," right?

00:14:38   I would say they're using some kind of LED technology that heretofore has only been used in

00:14:45   Las Vegas maybe. It's probably a bunch of Tesla headlights, right?

00:14:50   Factories, "Hey, give me a bunch of headlights."

00:14:53   Well, it looks like the type of lights that you would put to signal alien civilizations.

00:14:59   You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:15:02   I wonder if you can see it from space. They have contact with the station to say, "Hey, guys,

00:15:09   can you see it?" Yeah. It is extremely bright, but it doesn't just turn on. It flashes like the

00:15:16   lights in a nightclub. I mean, like strobe lights for lack of—extremely bright. And what is directly

00:15:24   across the street from the sign? It is a high-rise apartment building, and somebody—the tweet I will

00:15:33   put in the show notes is somebody saying, "Oh my God, could you imagine living across the street

00:15:37   from this?" And it's video of this incredibly bright strobe light, and then the next—

00:15:44   Yeah, but the word "livid" was mentioned as well.

00:15:46   Right. The next tweet is the guy retweeting somebody who says, "Yeah, this is my life,"

00:15:52   and it's somebody who lives in the building. Oh, Jesus. Showing what it looks like.

00:15:58   Of course, I didn't see that reply. You know why? Because I'm not locked into Twitter.

00:16:04   Oh, yeah. So, they show these videos, right? And then it's like there's all this

00:16:09   context around it, which is always the conversation. That's what Twitter was about,

00:16:13   right? The conversation. And if you're not logged into Twitter, you see none of that.

00:16:18   Yeah. Well, one of the reasons I spent so little time on it—again, not protesting it,

00:16:24   even though the people who are, I think, look like the smart ones, but not out of protest,

00:16:28   but just out of, "Well, this isn't even worth my time," is that when you are logged in, the

00:16:33   prioritization of people who pay for Twitter Blue—and it still is called Twitter Blue,

00:16:40   it's not XBlue yet—Twitter Blue are at the top of all the replies, always. It's not like a secret,

00:16:50   that's like a reason that they want you to sign up for Blue. So, no matter what tweet you look at,

00:16:56   the top replies are always from the blue checkmarks, and they are the most obnoxious

00:17:04   people, you know. The sycophants, yeah.

00:17:06   Yeah. Mostly, yeah. They really are.

00:17:09   I mean, one of them… So, the only reason that the reply with the guy's video from his bedroom,

00:17:16   or whatever it is, across the street, is because the same guy retweeted it. So,

00:17:21   because it was his original post, his replies at the top.

00:17:24   Gave him a little bit of a boost, yeah.

00:17:26   Right. But all the next replies in that thread are people saying, literally, "Can you imagine

00:17:33   living in a city and complaining about lights?" Like, "Ha ha," you know, like, "What idiots you

00:17:38   are to complain about this." Trust me, this is not normal lights in a city.

00:17:44   Yeah, no, anybody who's lived in a city looks at that and just says, "No, that's just obnoxious."

00:17:50   Well, I'm sure—

00:17:50   And that's the thing about living in a city, right? You're actually

00:17:53   more in tune with the people around you.

00:17:55   Right, you are.

00:17:56   Because there are a lot of them.

00:17:57   Yeah, you kind of develop an innate sense of conscientiousness in terms of noise.

00:18:02   Like walking on the right side of the street, right? You can always tell people from out of

00:18:07   town, right? They don't follow the walking rules.

00:18:09   Right, they don't follow the walking rules, including pace.

00:18:12   Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's like you're just kind of—you fall in, right?

00:18:19   I don't know. What else? Before we—I mean, it's not worth spending too much time on this.

00:18:23   Oh, well, I showed you that how to X.

00:18:27   Yes, yes.

00:18:27   Talking to you yesterday. You should probably link to that in the show notes. But just for grins,

00:18:33   I went through and took their how to tweet document from their health center and changed

00:18:40   all the tweets and Twitters to X. And your comment was good. It felt like Mad Libs.

00:18:47   Yes, yeah.

00:18:48   Fill in the blank.

00:18:49   Yeah. It feels like every time you get to an X, you're supposed to fill it in with a funny word.

00:18:54   Yeah, it's like how to whatever.

00:18:59   It was just—it's—step one, type your X up to 280 characters into the compose box at the top

00:19:08   of your home timeline or select X button in the navigation bar. You can include up to four photos,

00:19:15   a GIF, a video in your X.

00:19:17   In your X.

00:19:18   Select the X button to post the X to your profile. It's like, what does that even mean?

00:19:24   Yeah. Speaking of profanity and Mad Libs, I will tell you, one of the—you ever

00:19:29   just have one of those things where something cracks you up so tremendously that you remember

00:19:35   it decades later as one of the funniest moments of your life?

00:19:38   Oh, yeah. Yeah.

00:19:39   Yeah. At some point in the '90s, I mean, like, I don't know, 1997, 1998,

00:19:45   I even remember where we are, and my wife remembers where we were.

00:19:48   They always do.

00:19:49   We were driving out on City Line Avenue in Philadelphia. People who live here know that

00:19:55   it's called City Line because it's a part of the city where one side of the street is

00:20:03   still the city of Philadelphia and the other side is the suburbs, a suburb called Balikinwid.

00:20:09   And you can tell which side is which because the city of Philadelphia has, like, a 5%

00:20:15   wage tax and Balikinwid does not. And so, the city of Philadelphia side is all like

00:20:22   Taco Bell and Petco and retail strip mall type stuff, and Balikinwid side is all high-rise

00:20:29   offices and medical buildings and stuff. But we were driving out there for something,

00:20:35   and on the radio came on Adam Sandler's song "Piece of Shit Car," speaking of profanity.

00:20:44   But it was on the radio, and so, it's a very funny song. It is very, very funny. But because

00:20:49   it was on the radio, every time he swears, it was beeped.

00:20:54   But we thought it was so funny beeped that we thought that maybe even on his CD or wherever

00:21:18   he published it, that it was meant to be beeped because it was so funny.

00:21:22   - Part of the rhythm of the song. - It's not. It actually was a censored

00:21:27   version, whatever you call it, FM-friendly version. But there must be 100 beeps in the song.

00:21:33   And because it rhymes, you know what every curse word is.

00:21:36   - Yeah, yeah. We got beeped with the beep. - Yeah. But that's what your How to X edited

00:21:43   document. It's hilarious because you just imagine curse words in there. You can't help to.

00:21:48   - Well, the best part is at the very end, right, which is like, it has a standard share button,

00:21:56   right, which was the bird. And then the word next to it was tweet, right? And that button now is X.

00:22:03   - X.

00:22:04   -

00:22:10   Retweets became re-Xs. - Rexes.

00:22:13   - It was one of those things that I just looked at it and it was like, oh, man, it's going to take

00:22:20   them forever to update the site to not say Twitter or tweet. I mean, it's just all over the place.

00:22:27   So, I took this one page. I was thinking, yeah, I'm just going to poke around at it. And it took

00:22:33   me like 45 minutes to do this because it's just, it's like, I thought it was done. And they say,

00:22:38   oh, no, there's the footer. Oh, no, there's the header. Oh, there's a little icon next to the help

00:22:43   center. It took a long time and that's just one page and probably tens of thousands. And they're

00:22:49   all localized. So, are you going to localize X into Hungarian or whatever? It's like, yeah.

00:22:59   - Yeah, but that help document though is like the epicenter of the three, at least the three main

00:23:06   cases, Twitter as a service, tweet as a noun, the name for the post and tweet as a verb, the act of

00:23:16   creating a tweet. And so, all of those are repeated. That's what the whole document's about, using the

00:23:22   service Twitter to tweet tweets. And instead it's just using X to X Xs. - Yeah. The stupidity of it

00:23:33   is you start thinking about how many things in common language are both nouns and verbs in,

00:23:41   like a product, right? It's like Google. - Yep.

00:23:44   - There's Xerox. - Yep.

00:23:48   - There's Instagram to some point, Instagram, you know, sort of. But there are many.

00:23:55   - It's nowhere near as elegant as tweet. - Tweet and tweet was like, hmm.

00:23:59   - Ah, somebody, it's escaping me at the moment. Xerox is obviously almost canonical. Google is

00:24:07   the modern version of Xerox. Super, super powerful. Somebody had in this week, somebody thought of

00:24:13   another, there was another good example, but that's enough. And Twitter had that and you kind of have

00:24:19   to luck into it and they really lucked into it. And again, it's one of the reasons I thought.

00:24:24   - Kind of we gave it to them. They got lucky. - Right.

00:24:29   Again, I call it out. You call it out. You should. It's not bragging. It's not taking credit for

00:24:36   something that, or exaggerating the credit. It really is true that pre-Twitterrific,

00:24:41   Twitter not only didn't have tweet as a verb or noun, they didn't have a bird logo. Their logo

00:24:50   was like a sort of bubble font, lowercase T. - Yeah, it was logo mark.

00:24:55   - Yeah. - Just a weird little.

00:24:57   - Well, and the T, it wasn't bad. - No, it was fine. It was fine. I mean,

00:25:02   but the bird was obviously better. - Right. The bird was obviously better.

00:25:06   - And the bird led to tweet. - Right.

00:25:08   - And the tweet led to, yeah. - Yeah. But so.

00:25:12   - The whole change of things. - So, we've all thought of dozens of ways

00:25:17   that this is just not well thought through. And obviously, the fact that it took them a whole week

00:25:23   to get updated versions of the app out, the fact that even the website, they couldn't change right

00:25:28   away. But here's a question I saw. This didn't pop into my head until I saw somebody else bring

00:25:33   it up. But somebody else, and I think a couple of people had the observation, so I don't feel like

00:25:37   I'm stealing from one person. But how many A websites out there at the bottom of their

00:25:43   homepage, it's like a Twitter logo, an Instagram logo, a Facebook logo, right? If you have an F,

00:25:49   a camera, and a bird, you know what that means. It means, oh, this is our Twitter account,

00:25:54   our Instagram account, and our Facebook account. But some combination of those three.

00:25:58   And just think about like real world retail places, restaurants, and stuff like that.

00:26:04   - With a sticker on the window. - Or on the menu, right?

00:26:08   - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So, when they get around to updating

00:26:15   that or dealing with it, like, oh, I guess we should do something about this once this name

00:26:20   change settles in and Twitter feels like it's not the name of the thing anymore. What percentage of

00:26:26   them are just going to delete it rather than update it with the-

00:26:30   - I think it's a very high percentage. Yeah, I mean, we replaced ours. In fact,

00:26:35   it took about a week to go through all the sites and find all the instances of Twitter,

00:26:41   the mentions of it in CSS, just all the CSS rules that said if this is the class Twitter,

00:26:47   then show the little icon, that kind of thing. And yeah, it was a fairly lengthy process. And if I'm

00:26:55   a corporation who used to rely on Twitter as a way to connect with customers, I'm just gonna go,

00:27:04   there's nothing there anymore, right? Because it goes back to this problem where you go, okay,

00:27:08   and you go look at, say you wanna look at Chalk & Berry or Icon Factory. The first thing you see is

00:27:17   X logo, blow it, sign into Twitter. And if I don't have a Twitter account, I can't just be curious

00:27:25   and say, who is this company? Who is this person? I think if I'm running things at a company like

00:27:32   that, and they've got no footprint for this kind of casual information, I'm just gonna remove it.

00:27:41   Pete: Yeah. And think about it from a branding perspective too. Like if you're in charge of

00:27:48   the brand for your, whether it's just a restaurant or a major company, but if you're in charge of

00:27:53   that and you're- Pete: Yeah, the association now.

00:27:56   Pete: And you're concerned about the sort of rightward lurch and sort of the politics of

00:28:07   Twitter under Musk and the direction it's gone and the sort of people who are happy about his takeover

00:28:13   versus who aren't. Leaving your company's Twitter logo on your homepage or your window

00:28:21   or wherever else you had it, I think you could get away with that heretofore because people just know

00:28:26   it's been there. It's inertia, right? It's branding inertia. Scraping the Twitter bird

00:28:34   off your window and replacing it with the new X mark is a way, to me, is a way of saying,

00:28:40   we're down with the new X. Pete: But it's maybe not the final X mark.

00:28:46   Pete; Oh, no. Yeah, definitely. Pete; They said that, right? You gotta go through all this effort

00:28:49   and make a new X graphic or whatever and then they, oh, well, we're gonna change it again.

00:28:54   Pete; Yeah, who knows? Pete; So, yeah, go do that work again.

00:28:57   That's why I say it doesn't feel like something that people are gonna go rush to do.

00:29:02   Pete; Yeah. I wonder though, I kind of suspect that he likes it enough that if they do change it,

00:29:10   it'll be like a sort of pay somebody to redraw it and it'll sort of look the same as it does

00:29:16   right now. The sort of, the one side is a hollow, thicker-legged X and the other's just a diagonal.

00:29:24   I mean, say what you want about him. He doesn't seem to alter or play with the brands of his other

00:29:31   companies on a whim, right? Like the Tesla badge on the cars hasn't changed, I don't think ever.

00:29:37   Pete; The X and SpaceX. Pete; Yeah. I mean, it already has an X. So,

00:29:40   I don't think he's going to, but who knows? I don't know. I certainly don't want to bet any

00:29:44   money that he's not gonna change the name to Y. I don't know.

00:29:47   Pete; That's the thing. It feels like there's no predictability to the company now.

00:29:51   And that's not a sign for something you want to invest your time and energy in.

00:29:55   Pete; Right. But I really do think that they're going to lose out on the co-branding. I mean,

00:30:01   again, it's so easy to take for granted because a brand like Twitter and the presence of Twitter

00:30:10   in society is a slow boil, right? But there really was when it got started. When you were first

00:30:17   writing the first version of Twitterrific for the iPhone in the, what was it, the summer,

00:30:23   the first summer, right? 2007. Yeah, because did you have a prototype at C4 or no? Not yet.

00:30:29   Pete; No, no. That's where I met Lucas Newman who tuned me into all the jailbreaking stuff.

00:30:36   Pete; Right.

00:30:37   Pete; And that's when I went and started working on a jailbreak version of Twitterrific.

00:30:41   Pete; Right. Right.

00:30:42   Pete; And then they announced the SDK and then I got on hold.

00:30:44   Pete; Oh, that's right. Yeah, because…

00:30:45   Pete; The SDK dropped and then I had a head start.

00:30:48   Pete; You had a Mac version already though. That's what it was.

00:30:51   Pete; Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:30:51   Pete; Yeah, which was…

00:30:52   Pete; And the brilliant thing that Apple did was make the iPhone SDK look like the Mac SDK and…

00:30:59   Pete; Right.

00:31:00   Pete; It was easy to adopt.

00:31:01   Pete; Right, right, right. You had like entire classes of like talking to the server that you

00:31:06   could just reuse. But where was I going with that? I forget. It's so confusing.

00:31:13   Pete; Something about brand equity or…

00:31:16   Pete; Oh, it, the way that it, at that time, at that point in time, 2007,

00:31:21   Twitter was just one website among many, right? And we were into it and it's like,

00:31:28   people like us saw the appeal of it. But there was not something that when you went on CNN

00:31:35   that they would say, "Craig Hockenberry @Chockenberry." Nobody would know what the

00:31:40   hell that means. They'd be like, "What the hell is that thing with the @ symbol after his name?"

00:31:43   It's not, that's not an email address. What is that? Nobody, I don't even think we had that yet,

00:31:47   right? We didn't even have, yeah, the whole @ username thing hadn't even been invented yet.

00:31:51   Pete; No, no, no.

00:31:52   Pete; Right.

00:31:53   Pete; That was Robert Anderson, I believe.

00:31:55   Pete; I believe it was Robert Anderson. I think he invented that. And of course,

00:32:00   Chris Messina invented hashtags a couple years later, but none of that had been invented yet.

00:32:06   But somehow, slowly but surely, Twitter went from one, "Hey, website that people like

00:32:13   John Gruber and Craig Hockenberry are into," to a major cultural force and a mass market thing.

00:32:20   But like, of all the websites that had as much traffic as Twitter did circa 2007, and you know,

00:32:28   Facebook was very small back then. I think MySpace was still king of the social media at the time.

00:32:34   To get to the point where it's just ubiquitous, somebody told me I pronounced that word wrong,

00:32:39   so whichever way you pronounce it.

00:32:41   Chris Messina; It's ubiquitous, yeah.

00:32:42   Pete; Yeah, ubiquitous. So, you go to a store and there's a little bird icon and an

00:32:47   F logo for Facebook and an Instagram logo. There are very, very few platforms that are in that

00:32:55   stature where just random businesses across the spectrum promote their presence on your platform.

00:33:03   There's only a handful, right? Snapchat's there to some degree, depending on the demographic,

00:33:08   how young it goes. I'm sure TikTok…

00:33:10   Chris Messina; Well, one of the things that they did, that they stated when they redid the

00:33:15   Instagram icon was, remember the hubbub?

00:33:18   Pete; Yes, yes.

00:33:18   Chris Messina; You know, the hell, they changed it with the Polaroid camera. It's like one of

00:33:21   their design goals is to make something that looked good as a sticker on the window.

00:33:26   Pete; Yeah. And that's, as much as I miss the old…

00:33:29   Chris Messina; It's a smart thing to do, yeah.

00:33:30   Pete; As much as I miss the old skeuomorphic Instagram icon, it's, and putting this…

00:33:37   Chris Messina; It makes sense.

00:33:37   Pete; Yeah, it totally makes sense. And it's super, super popular. And they realized they

00:33:43   reached that. Twitter was there. And so many people have said it, Ben Thompson says it all

00:33:49   the time, that culturally, Twitter has always punched above its weight. They never figured

00:33:54   out a way to make a lot of money. But they certainly were extremely influential in terms

00:34:01   of driving the news narrative, a place for breaking news, a place where both the politicians

00:34:09   and actual officials participate. We had a President of the United States who effectively

00:34:16   ran his whole campaign on Twitter. It couldn't be more influential, even if it never became

00:34:24   the financial juggernaut that Facebook did. But in terms of its cultural impact was tremendous.

00:34:29   But there's no way, it really is flushed down the toilet with this name change. It really is.

00:34:36   Chris Messina; Yeah, yeah. I think one of the things that they

00:34:38   missed opportunity was, goes back to this identity, right? Gruber, Chalkenberry,

00:34:45   ICON Factory, Bank of America, right? Whoever had their identity on Twitter. And I could have

00:34:55   envisioned, I pay 100 bucks to be 100 bucks a year to be Chalkenberry, right? That's my place.

00:35:04   If you want to know about me, I'm happy to pay that. And in the scheme of things, that's to

00:35:12   plant your flag on the internet. That's a valuable thing. And they could have done something with

00:35:19   that. And sure, Hot Boy 57, whatever it is, he's not going to pay 100 bucks a year for that. But

00:35:24   for other individuals and companies, could have been something for them.

00:35:29   Pete: If they hadn't made it so polarized, the idea of creating a paid tier of Twitter

00:35:36   is a great idea. It really is. I mean, it's not a path to Facebook size, financial juggernaut hood,

00:35:47   but almost nothing is, right? I always compare the desire of just vague Wall Street investors who

00:35:58   want Twitter to be more like Facebook because Facebook is worth so much more money to the

00:36:03   people who wanted Apple to clone the Macintosh back in the 90s because Microsoft was so humongous.

00:36:08   Hey, Microsoft just licenses their operating system, so that's obviously the way to do it.

00:36:13   Whereas there was only ever going to be one Microsoft in that 80s to 90s rah rah era of the

00:36:21   PC. There was. And Apple had that cultural angle that Twitter has. Right, exactly. Twitter is to

00:36:28   Facebook. Yeah. And I don't, I actually, pre-Musk, I think you could draw the comparison. I don't

00:36:37   think it's a goofy analogy to say Twitter was to Facebook what Apple was to Microsoft.

00:36:42   And it just shows how important the infusion of totally fresh leadership that Apple got when they

00:36:52   acquired Next and Jobs came in with his executives and took over compared to Twitter where a different

00:37:00   team came in and took over. Jobs came back and one of the first things he did was he learned

00:37:05   what everybody was doing. Yeah, exactly. He went, it's like, he was not afraid to ask questions and

00:37:11   he asked a lot of questions. He figured out what the hell was going on. Yeah. Well, and he was.

00:37:16   And then he's like, okay, we don't need the Newton anymore or whatever it was. Okay, done.

00:37:22   Well, the single best thing, and the story has been told many times by Jobs himself,

00:37:28   by Johnny Ive, by other people, by biographers, but Jobs came in and thought, well, look at the

00:37:34   lineup of their Macintoshes. These are all boring and horrible beige boxes. Right?

00:37:41   And there were so many of them. There were so many of them. But just,

00:37:44   he thought, I'm obviously going to have to fire the whole industrial design team because they're

00:37:49   obviously inept. But he didn't. What he did is he went and met with them, found a guy named Johnny

00:37:55   Ive. And found the things that they'd been noodling on that weren't getting authorized to ship and

00:38:06   realized that it was a gold mine of talent, not just one guy, Johnny Ive, but the whole team

00:38:11   that, wow, this is actually the industrial design team that this company needs. They just need to be

00:38:18   set free. Very different approach to how to deal with the…

00:38:23   Yeah, and I'm sure that Twitter lost a lot of great people. I know a few, right? Really talented

00:38:30   developers who were just like, either let go or became totally disillusioned with the whole

00:38:36   clusterfuck. If I'd been there and not been laid off, I would have been out the door at first

00:38:43   opportunity, just not even thinking twice. Well,

00:38:47   I don't know what I would, I guess it depends what I wanted to do. Esther Crawford wrote an

00:38:53   essay I linked to on Daring Fireball this week. She was the, I forget her title, but like, it's

00:38:59   sort of a… She was an aqua hire.

00:39:01   Yeah, but she was a design manager and her team effectively was proposing designs. And then I know

00:39:10   some of the people who were tasked with implementing them. And she's the one who infamously tweeted,

00:39:16   sort of was going with the flow and that sort of trying to have a team spirit and happily showing

00:39:23   how she was sleeping in a sleeping bag to pull an all-nighter to meet. All-nighters happen,

00:39:29   in my opinion. I mean, the older you get…

00:39:31   It's just, right. It's a good thing in some cases, right? It's like a lot of energy is…

00:39:37   Right. And sometimes you have deadlines that just can't be moved. I'm sure, like for example,

00:39:43   like even at Apple, I'm sure that there are some things in the run-up to WWDC that require

00:39:49   long hours because, hey, we've already announced the dates. It has to happen, right?

00:39:53   No sleep till dub-dub. That's the saying, right? And it's true.

00:39:58   Right. There's going to be an iPhone event in September. There always is, unless there's a

00:40:04   pandemic and they have to move it to October. But there are going to be some aspects of iOS

00:40:10   that have to be… Iowa 17 that have to be locked down in August to ship in September.

00:40:16   And deadlines have to be met. But the deadlines that Musk was imposing were entirely just imposed

00:40:22   by him out of… Whimsical.

00:40:25   Impatience. Yeah. Whimsical impatience. But anyway, she tweeted, "Hey, sometimes you have

00:40:31   to pull an all-nighter." And I made fun of it on Daring Far. But she wrote a very nice essay

00:40:35   about her time there and why she stayed. And I can see the perspective. She was part of the people at

00:40:42   Twitter who… And she came as an acqui-hire from a startup, I forget what it was, but at a smaller

00:40:48   team where they obviously built something good enough for Twitter to buy. And when you're used

00:40:55   to a small team that makes something new at a fast speed and you end up in this organization

00:41:01   that pre-Musk had like sclerosis. There was a lot of dead weight. Yeah, there was a lot of dead

00:41:07   weight there. And the leadership, the company was ossified. They've shipped very few features

00:41:13   over the past 10 years, honestly. And they sort of had developed a culture of stasis.

00:41:19   Yeah. They had hundreds of people working on the iOS app.

00:41:24   Yeah, hundreds. I mean, for Twitter, we had three of them.

00:41:28   Right. Somebody… Somebody told me they had a whole team that worked on the search box

00:41:36   for the website. Not search feature where they were writing the code that actually searches,

00:41:42   just the box where you type the search queries. All team. It's…

00:41:47   And it seems like you start to second guess yourself and it's just like sometimes you just

00:41:51   got to go with your gut. And that's where A/B testing comes from, right? It's like,

00:41:56   there are too many people, too many opinions. Just pick one and go.

00:42:00   So, when Musk came in and said, "Hey, we're going to shake things up. I'm going to let go of a lot

00:42:05   of people and we're going to move fast and make some changes." I can see if wanting to stay and

00:42:11   see if you could be part of shipping some cool stuff and see how it goes. But…

00:42:16   Are there reasons why you were optimistic about it?

00:42:19   Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, because I knew that he was going to try that. And like I wrote this

00:42:23   week, I'm not trying to cover… I was clearly wrong to be optimistic about Twitter. I mean,

00:42:28   I feel like I'm owning it. I'm not…

00:42:30   Yeah, no, no, you are. I was pessimistic about it.

00:42:34   Right. And…

00:42:34   And one of us got lucky.

00:42:36   Yeah.

00:42:37   But I do think that… Not that I was right, but that I was on the right trail, that it was…

00:42:45   His buying Twitter was good for Twitter-like things. It's the best thing that ever happened

00:42:50   to Mastodon. I mean, for sure. It's an enormous…

00:42:53   Threads, I don't think would exist without it.

00:42:56   I'm almost certain it would not. And I like Threads. I like Threads quite a bit. I like

00:43:00   Mastodon better. And it's still going to… Mastodon is still my first choice for brief dips

00:43:07   into social media. But I do like Threads and I appreciate… And I understand that the reasons

00:43:13   that I like Mastodon better than… I like it better than Threads is exactly why Threads is better

00:43:20   for more people. It's…

00:43:21   Right. Celebrity common ground kind of stuff.

00:43:24   Yeah. And it's…

00:43:25   Mastodon tends to skew techie.

00:43:28   Yeah.

00:43:29   Right? It just does.

00:43:30   Yeah. Well, and like one thing, a big difference I notice and I'm sure you would notice and think

00:43:36   of is by choice, like when I open up Ivory, I get taken back exactly to where I was the last time

00:43:43   I used it, even if it was on another device, right? So, I can like be browsing Ivory on my iPad and

00:43:49   then I go on my phone and, oh, there I am in the same place in the same… You're looking at the

00:43:54   same thing at the same point in my timeline. Every time you go back to Threads, it sort of starts you

00:43:58   at the top again. I mean, if you leave for like a minute and come back, it'll be right where you

00:44:03   were. But if you come…

00:44:03   That's the problem with algorithmic timeline, right? It's like it's all generated on the fly

00:44:09   and it's hard to reestablish on the fly when you go back.

00:44:12   Well, they added the following timeline this week. But every time you go back after it pages

00:44:19   out of memory, it defaults you back to the algorithmic one. But that is… It's the right

00:44:25   thing for 100 million people. It's the wrong thing for the 1 million people like me, the 1%

00:44:31   who sort of prefer having deliberate control of my place in the timeline as opposed to just sort

00:44:37   of letting it all wash over you. But they know what they're doing. I mean, Instagram is still

00:44:42   super-duper popular. It's not a limitation of Threads. It's a deliberate choice that's optimized

00:44:49   for the way much more casual users of a Twitter-like service want to see stuff.

00:44:55   They just want to see something interesting, whereas I want to see something specific.

00:45:00   These people who I chose to follow and where I was when I last was there.

00:45:04   Yeah, I find it a good way to back channel type of conversations, right? If somebody at Apple who

00:45:11   knows something about this throw a massive on and you just kind of ping them there. And if I don't

00:45:17   get a reply, fine, I don't get a reply. If I do, it's usually helpful. And I'll take that

00:45:24   information and forward it on to my followers kind of thing. So, it's kind of a… I'm really happy

00:45:31   that there are alternatives now, right? The fact that there's a marketplace of conversational

00:45:38   tools and Threads, Blue Sky, Mastodon, there will be others.

00:45:44   I think it's good. And Substack has their own thing. And it's obviously niche. But if you follow

00:45:51   a couple of Substack authors, they have these Substack parents.

00:45:54   Right, and you're into writing. Yeah, that's the place for you.

00:45:57   And it's a way that somebody who does what I do, but does it as a Substack newsletter,

00:46:06   can communicate with their readers in a Twitter like fashion in a tab in the Substack app. It's

00:46:12   nice. It's a great format. It doesn't… The fact that Twitter by way of its overwhelming

00:46:19   network effect advantage sort of took all the oxygen out of the idea. To me, the very best

00:46:27   thing to come out of this is the fact that it's not just federated in one federation like Mastodon

00:46:34   and Activitypub and whatever else you want to call that circle of federation. But it's even

00:46:40   more loosely federated, like you said, with Blue Sky, which is a different protocol with Threads,

00:46:46   with these Twitter-like things. It's just an idea, right? It's just, hey, and that core idea that

00:46:54   Jack Dorsey had back in 2006 or 2005, whenever he had the little sketch on his notepad, of just

00:47:00   a place where you could just post short text updates and people who choose to follow your

00:47:06   updates can follow them, is brilliant. It's… Tim Cynova Yes. The name was

00:47:11   S-T-A-T period U.S. status. Right? And that's all it is. It's like, what's going on with me? And

00:47:18   that's still how I use these services. It's like, what's going on? In fact, that used to be the

00:47:25   prompt at Twitter. It was, what are you doing? And what's going on? And then…

00:47:29   Dave Asprey What's going on?

00:47:30   Tim Cynova What's happening?

00:47:31   Dave Asprey With an interrobang.

00:47:35   Tim Cynova Yeah.

00:47:36   Dave Asprey Like screaming at you, what's happening?

00:47:39   I imagine that guy across the street from Twitter headquarters said the exact same thing.

00:47:44   Tim Cynova He's wondering, what the hell is happening?

00:47:46   Dave Asprey What's happening?

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00:51:31   right? If the house burns down, we've lost a lot of important information.

00:51:36   I'm going to go to that talk show link. Pete: I would not recommend only using online

00:51:44   backup, but I would definitely recommend always using some kind of online backup.

00:51:48   You got to have multiple backups, right? It's like a time machine locally, then to another

00:51:53   machine, then to the cloud. Yeah. Before we started recording the show, I published a little

00:52:00   article on Daring Fireball about foldable phones. I didn't call them a jackass by name. I gave it to

00:52:06   the whole publication, but the gist of the article was if Apple doesn't soon ship a foldable phone,

00:52:11   there'll be no reason to buy an iPhone. No camera improvements, nothing. Yeah.

00:52:20   I almost feel like I want to give them credit because for all the fear that we have that AI

00:52:26   is going to take over clickbait, it's like, no, no. Humans are still really good at it.

00:52:31   Yeah. Humans are still good at it. That's really good clickbait.

00:52:36   Who was it that made the observation that the percentage of people who want a foldable phone

00:52:41   and then the percentage of people who can afford that foldable phone, then the percentage of people

00:52:46   who can afford that foldable phone is going to break. It's too early. The tech's not there.

00:52:53   The dream is there. Do you have, I mean, as the technology currently stands, do you have any

00:53:00   desire for this whatsoever? Let's put aside the fact that by all accounts, Samsung's the best at

00:53:06   this. Google just shipped their first foldable pixels. And most of the reviews I see, the

00:53:11   consensus is that they're not as good as the Samsung ones. And part of the problem is they

00:53:16   always have like a gap, like at least the flip phones do, or I think they all do because if they

00:53:22   fold flat, the glass cracks. So they kind of need to form a wedge shape when closed as opposed to a

00:53:30   completely flat sandwich. Let's put that aside. All of them, including Samsung's, the best they

00:53:36   can do for some reason that I don't quite understand is water resistance, but no dust

00:53:42   resistance. There's something to do with the hinge where they can waterproof the gaps, but they can't

00:53:47   dust proof the gaps for the hinge. And so they always say specifically, don't, don't take these

00:53:54   things to the beach, the beach. And that's a problem for you, right? I mean,

00:53:58   Oh man, as soon as we finished this podcast, I'm heading out first.

00:54:01   Right. Not taking it to the beach is kind of a bummer. I mean, cause they're, they're literally

00:54:07   like IPX8 rated and the way those ratings work, I forget what the numbers mean, but it's IP

00:54:15   means like this is it's the international standards body for dust and water resistance.

00:54:20   The first number is for particles like dust and the second one is for water. So the eight is like

00:54:26   a nice rating. I think, you know, like iPhones are IP68 and that's six for the dust and eight

00:54:33   for water resistance and Samsung's galaxy flagships are all IP68 too. That's sort of the

00:54:39   modern standard for dust and water resistance, but these foldables are IPX8 and the X just means

00:54:45   no dust resistance. Well, it's not so much that the dust resistance that would bug me. It's just

00:54:52   that these things are little fat boys, right? Like they're not going to fit in your pocket.

00:54:56   Right. If you're a woman and what's going on in the person might be better. It's like a compact

00:55:01   case. But I, for me personally, it's just, I don't want a thicker phone. No. And I don't want to have

00:55:09   to open it. And, and people are saying like these new Samsung just had their event this week with

00:55:13   the flip and fold five fold. Is there one that's like a book and the flip is the flip phone thing.

00:55:19   And people are saying that they've, they've spent a lot of time on the hinges and the hinges are

00:55:24   different, but now they're harder to open. I don't know. It doesn't, it doesn't seem appeal. I like

00:55:29   to take my phone out, do something and put it back. I don't opening. It doesn't seem appealing.

00:55:33   Having the big screen of the book size ones and getting like an iPad or an iPad mini ish

00:55:41   total real estate. I see the appeal of it, but only if in the folded state, it's like as thick

00:55:47   as an iPhone is today. Right? Like if you had, if there was like a phone as maybe a little thicker

00:55:54   than an iPhone today, but that opened up to be double the size, talk to me then. But as it stands

00:56:02   now, the big ones, it's really is as thick as having two phones in your pocket. Like, yeah.

00:56:08   And you think about it, anybody with an Apple watch already has two screens, right? You already

00:56:14   have multiple screens and you don't have to unfold them. And sometimes I get my information without

00:56:20   pulling out my, the phone out of my pocket. In fact, if I go to the beach, which I do pretty

00:56:27   much every day, I just take my Apple watch because I can have my grocery list on it and I can have

00:56:32   some music on it and tell me what time it is. Or podcasts, Craig. Podcasts. I want you to have

00:56:39   your podcasts on your watch. Oh, right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. My problem with podcasts is I can't,

00:56:45   I love listening to them, but I can't listen to them and work at the same time.

00:56:52   No, me neither. And it's like, when I'm doing dishes and stuff, that's usually when my wife

00:56:57   and I are chatting about something and just sitting in front of the TV, I'm not going to

00:57:00   be listening to podcasts. So I just, it doesn't, yeah. Our friend Brent Simmons enjoys listening

00:57:07   to podcasts while he works and I don't know how he does it because I don't know. But for me,

00:57:12   it's either it's one way or the other where if I try listening to podcasts while I work,

00:57:17   either I get, it's like, wow, this is really good. And I realized I haven't done anything for 40

00:57:21   minutes or I I'm doing something and I realized I've just missed 40 minutes of this podcast. I'm

00:57:28   going to have to listen to it again. Yeah. It just ended. I missed sleep on during TV show.

00:57:34   What happened? Yeah. Really, if I were going to listen to a podcast, I would need it to be like,

00:57:40   like in a foreign language that I don't speak or like the Sims language. Like white noise,

00:57:47   that's just fake human voices, but it can't be real talking because I would be distracted.

00:57:52   That's why I love music. For me, working with music, it's there, but you can also tune it out.

00:57:58   Yeah. Do you find that you do prefer listening to music that doesn't have lyrics,

00:58:03   like instrumental music or it doesn't matter to you? No, I love lyrical music.

00:58:07   Yeah. But I do listen. Yeah. But I don't really listen to the lyrics while I'm working. Right.

00:58:12   They're a part of the song. This my wife and I, maybe, and I have talked about,

00:58:18   Amy is a big lyrics, listen, listener and the music she loves. She knows all the music and

00:58:22   she appreciates it like somebody appreciates poetry. And so many of her, she's a Tom Petty.

00:58:27   Yeah. Yes, exactly. Like it's, it's not just that she likes the way Tom Petty's music sounds.

00:58:33   She really, really deeply appreciates and always has since he was underrated as from that aspect.

00:58:39   But a lot of people, a lot of people heard the tune behind it. Dylan ask in terms of his poetry

00:58:46   and it's no surprise that Dylan was obviously a big fit Petty fan with the Wilbries and yeah.

00:58:52   Yeah. Oh my God. The great, the best tour that I never saw because I was too young was when

00:58:58   it was like a couple of years before the Wilbries Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers toured the country

00:59:02   as Dylan's band. I was old enough to see that. You son of a bitch. Honestly.

00:59:12   Tom Petty is an opening band. There's your first clue.

00:59:17   Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers as an opening band and then truly great musicians playing his backup

00:59:24   to Bob Dylan. Unbelievable. But anyway, I digress. But I don't listen to lyrics and music. I really

00:59:30   don't. I couldn't tell you. The only bad part of that show is a guy a couple of rows back from me

00:59:35   that every five minutes would go, Bobby, Bobby, you're so fine. You blow my mind.

00:59:40   Some people, I don't know why some people pay for concert tickets. I really don't.

00:59:45   His problem was he paid for beer.

00:59:47   It's very expensive beer. It's like going to the ballpark for beer.

00:59:53   Oh yeah. $17 for a beer. Sure. That's a good deal. I don't even like baseball. I'm here for

00:59:58   the beer. Money left over, you can get a t-shirt. I'm here for the food. I'm here for the hot dogs.

01:00:07   I just don't see the foldable thing happening. I really don't. Or not soon. I think eventually,

01:00:14   I think it needs a total revolution in screen technology, battery technology to get it to a size.

01:00:21   It's the connector. The connector between the two things is a problem. It's like that hinge

01:00:27   is there and it's got a lot of electronics in it. I could see Apple doing something

01:00:30   with their Bluetooth chips. Basically having two phones that talk to each other over Bluetooth

01:00:38   connection that's super fast or something like that. It's going to be the typical Apple way,

01:00:45   doing something that they see could be useful, but not like everybody's thought about it,

01:00:54   like the headset now. It's just a different take. It's more thought out.

01:01:02   Are you noodling on ideas for the headset? We might as well segue to it. Are you looking at

01:01:10   the SDK yet? I haven't. I honestly need to wear one before I can even start thinking about it.

01:01:23   I see a lot of people coming up with these interactions and thinking that,

01:01:27   "Oh, what I'm seeing in the simulator is going to be like when I'm wearing this thing on my head."

01:01:31   It might be. I may be wrong there, but it's like I didn't really get the iPhone until it was in

01:01:37   my hand. I really did not understand the iPhone until I did that swipe to unlock and then it was

01:01:43   like, "Oh, my God." Right. I spent six months extremely excited about the iPhone before.

01:01:52   Yeah, that's where I'm at right now with the vision things. I'm dying to try it.

01:01:56   You're lucky that you have tried it. You've had that taste of it. You haven't actually

01:02:03   gone about your day with it. I think there's a big difference there.

01:02:06   Yeah, guided through it. Thirty minutes isn't quite enough to start thinking like,

01:02:14   "Oh, you know what would really be a killer app? What I would love to have on it." No,

01:02:18   I don't know yet. I don't know. Yeah, you have to use something to do. And the Macintosh was

01:02:23   the same way back in the '80s. There's no doubt about it. Even if you saw the appeal

01:02:27   or if you were just curious. I mean, and you and I remember very vividly, it actually was,

01:02:33   I would say, close to a decade from 1984 to maybe '93, '94, where there were still these diehards

01:02:42   who thought that a command line interface was the only way real computers would work and that a GUI

01:02:48   was for babies. I mean, you really can't believe how long into the GUI era that there were people,

01:02:56   mostly men, who really, really were going to die on that hill. But even if you were just curious

01:03:04   about it, if you were like, "Huh, that seems like an interesting way to do a computer," you really

01:03:09   had to use it before you would come up with an idea for writing software for the Macintosh.

01:03:13   Even if you thought, "I can't wait to try that. That seems really interesting to have two documents

01:03:18   open in these overlapping windows and you could just click between them." Boy, that would be,

01:03:23   that was a hard problem to solve in the command line days, the text-only screen days.

01:03:28   Tim Cynova Yeah, that's a weird,

01:03:30   weird multi-terminal thing that you could switch between basically 24 by 40, 80.

01:03:37   Yeah.

01:03:37   24 by 80 screens. It was just, it was a hack.

01:03:40   Yeah, you could have like two buffers in Emacs or something like that.

01:03:44   Tim Cynova Yeah, it was weird.

01:03:46   That's the thing that the windows solved. And having windows floating in space,

01:03:51   that's going to solve some problems, but I don't know what those problems are yet.

01:03:55   Pete Laskowski Yeah, I don't know either.

01:03:56   Tim Cynova Another thing that concerns me about VisionOS is nobody's really talking about this.

01:04:01   It's going to be a tiny market, right? There aren't going to be a lot of people buying these

01:04:07   things initially. And from what I'm seeing, the development for this platform, it's, yeah, you can

01:04:15   leverage some of your knowledge about how UIKit or SwiftUI works, but it really is a new thing.

01:04:22   It's like, "Oh, I'm going to take my Mac app and run it on the iPhone." No, you're not.

01:04:28   Pete Laskowski No.

01:04:28   Tim Cynova You're going to take my iPhone app and run it on VisionOS. It's like,

01:04:32   you may think so now, but no, you're not.

01:04:35   Tim Cynova Right. The closest that's going to come to be true,

01:04:39   I think, and although this is one of the features they didn't let us experience a month ago, is the

01:04:45   just run all of macOS, you run an external display for your MacBook in a big window in front of you

01:04:53   in VisionOS. That, assuming that it works as well as they say it's going to work, and that it's

01:04:58   going to be like the equivalent of like a 4 to 5K virtual display in front of you, that is going to

01:05:05   be a killer. But the Mac developers have to do nothing. It's literally just a display. So,

01:05:11   literally, there is nothing to do. There's no, there's not even like a WWDC session, like, "Oh,

01:05:16   ways to optimize your Mac app for," no, it's just a virtual display for your Mac. So, like,

01:05:20   Pete Laskowski It's like running a VLC session on a Mac Mini or whatever.

01:05:24   Tim Cynova Yeah, exactly.

01:05:25   Pete Laskowski It's across the room. It's just not, it's going to, and with a good keyboard

01:05:30   and some other, I mean, you're not going to probably want to hold your hand up or even pinch

01:05:37   and, you know, move your wrist around all day. You're going to want to use some other kind of

01:05:42   trackpad or a mouse even. Tim Cynova

01:05:44   Yeah. It makes me wonder whether there's a market for somebody like a third, because I don't think

01:05:49   Apple would do it, but it would be interesting to see if, and maybe somebody makes something like

01:05:53   this now. I just don't know about it, but like a portable track, keyboard and trackpad, that's one

01:06:00   piece. So, it's one thing to connect via Bluetooth to your Mac. And I don't know. I'm not quite sure

01:06:06   what people are going to do. Pete Laskowski

01:06:07   Sort of like the smart keyboard, but without having to hook it up to another device.

01:06:12   Tim Cynova Or maybe what travelers will do is just use their MacBook and open it up and use the

01:06:18   MacBook keyboard and trackpad, but not use the display even though it's open, which is kind of

01:06:24   weird. Right? I've only thought about this like in the last week or two. Like that's kind of weird.

01:06:30   Like, so imagine, all right, I go to next year's WWDC and I have a Vision Pro headset and I am in

01:06:37   my hotel room to write up my keynote thoughts for next year's WWDC. And I want to use the big virtual

01:06:47   Mac display through the headset. And the only keyboard I have is my MacBook Pro. Isn't it weird

01:06:54   to open my MacBook Pro and use that keyboard and trackpad while I'm looking at a display in the

01:07:00   headset and not looking at the display and would my…? Pete Laskowski

01:07:04   There will have to be some sort of accessory there. The other it sucks case is being on an

01:07:09   airplane, right? You want something that you can put down on the tray table and not have to worry

01:07:13   about the screen hitting the seat in front of you. Tim Cynova

01:07:16   Well, I think, see there, I think it's almost easier because then you could just open your

01:07:20   MacBook and not even open it 90 degrees, right? Just open it enough so that it's on and ignore

01:07:26   the MacBook display. Have it… Pete Laskowski

01:07:29   Your hands are not as big as mine. [Laughter]

01:07:33   Tim Cynova As often discussed on this podcast.

01:07:36   A reminder of the fleshy palm. [Laughter]

01:07:45   Let me just take another break here. I'll thank our next sponsor for the day and it is our good

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01:11:28   Great, great company. What else do we want to talk about? I wanted to ask you,

01:11:32   what are you working on this summer with iOS 17, iPadOS 17?

01:11:36   Tim Cynova Oh, the whole thing with the interactive widgets.

01:11:41   Yeah, to me that to me is a it's a bigger deal than I think a lot of people realize.

01:11:47   Widgets in the past have been just sort of like screenshots of data, right? They've just been like

01:11:54   pictures of the state of your app, right? It's on the home screen. And interacting with those

01:12:01   meant tapping on and going to the app. And there wasn't really any kind of story there to stay just

01:12:07   on your lock screen or on your home screen. And now with the interactive widgets, they've done

01:12:13   something really clever. And it's it. I don't want to say this wasn't a hard thing to implement,

01:12:18   but there was a lot of cleverness involved. To explain a little bit how widgets work,

01:12:25   it's sort of like a zip archive of a HTML page, right? You lay out the page and you take a zip

01:12:34   file of it. And then later on the system decides, oh, I'm going to display this this widget and take

01:12:40   the zip file and unpack it and put it on the display. What they've done now is the ability to

01:12:48   to have some interaction there that calls a thing that's sort of like a shortcut,

01:12:54   lets your app do something, right? It can be anything. And in fact, the thing that I'm looking

01:13:00   at is in Trio, the ability to play radio stations, right? From the lock screen, you just see a button

01:13:07   for a station that you like, you tap on that button and starts playing the radio station,

01:13:12   right? I'm sure the music app will get a similar kind of treatment, starting stopping tracks

01:13:19   without having to open up the music app and dig through and find the player. I see a lot of

01:13:24   opportunities there for developers to make the widgets just come alive. And I think it's a great

01:13:30   little thing that they've done. The side effect of this, I think is even kind of probably better

01:13:36   in the long term is that it's going to, the way you do this is doing by something that's sort of

01:13:40   like a little shortcut, right? And it's going to expose a lot of developers to the shortcuts

01:13:45   technology. So like that button that's on your widget that he says, "Oh, play this radio station."

01:13:51   Well, I'm obviously going to write a shortcut that says, "Play this radio station," right? So

01:13:56   you can automate that. So like if I go into my focus mode or if I get home, it starts playing

01:14:04   the radio station on the kitchen home pod. And that's for me the thing that really is

01:14:10   powerful because it takes that interaction and makes it something that you can use throughout

01:14:17   your life, right? That's for me the most interesting thing. In fact, while we're talking

01:14:24   about VisionOS and all these other things, it's like interactions that fit into your life are

01:14:31   the really, that's the goal. That's the thing I love doing the most.

01:14:36   Pete: Yeah, that's very interesting because that's an area like I was keenly interested in that part

01:14:44   of the keynote, but I haven't really played with widgets yet that much. Like most of my iOS 17 time

01:14:50   this summer has been on my iPad because I just recklessly throw betas on my iPad because it's

01:14:56   like I have a spare iPhone with the beta, but I don't use my spare iPhone that much. I don't put

01:15:02   the betas on my Mac because my Mac needs to be stable and consistent for work. Therefore, I just

01:15:09   put it beta on my iPad and I don't care. Like last week before the latest beta, there was one day

01:15:15   where I don't know what happened, but I felt that it was warm. I was like, "Huh, my iPad's really

01:15:19   warm. I guess I should turn it off," but I didn't, but it was charging. And then the next time I went

01:15:24   to it, it was dead. So, it was using energy so quickly that it died while it was plugged in.

01:15:29   [Laughter]

01:15:29   John "Slick" Baum: You don't want that happening on your phone for sure. I kind of screwed myself

01:15:34   with the iPhone yearly purchase thing. It's like, "Oh, I got a new iPhone every year, but I have to

01:15:40   send the old one back." And now I don't have any phones that run iOS 16 and iOS 17.

01:15:46   Pete I don't think that thing that happened to my iPad would have happened if the USB plug was

01:15:51   right into the iPad. It was connected to a magic keyboard and the plug was in the keyboard.

01:15:56   John "Slick" Baum; Probably didn't have enough juice.

01:15:58   Pete I think the iPad was just like, "Hey, I give up. I'm too hot. I'm giving up," and

01:16:01   wasn't charging, whatever. But the widget thing is interesting. But like you said,

01:16:07   heretofore through iOS 16, while the widgets can present lots of information, and if you make a big

01:16:16   one like a calendar widget for Fantastic Cal or Apple's calendar or weather widgets, everybody's

01:16:22   got weather widgets, you can have an information, visually information-rich presentation, but the

01:16:30   whole widget is just a button to launch the app in terms of interactivity. So, no matter how big the

01:16:37   widget, it's all just one big button to just go to the app to do anything else.

01:16:42   John Yeah, and I think it gets really interesting when you start thinking about standby,

01:16:46   where you put the phone in the landscape orientation and you get the widgets.

01:16:52   Pete Right.

01:16:53   John And imagine like, this is kind of my dream,

01:16:56   right? Is having a clock and then next to it a button that starts a radio station, right?

01:17:03   Pete Right.

01:17:03   John Listen to music while I'm going to bed and have that thing turn off after 30 minutes or

01:17:08   whatever. It's just, there are going to be a lot of interesting things that happen because of that

01:17:14   just, and it really is just two things, right? The only interactive points are a toggle switch

01:17:20   and a button, and the buttons can send some piece of information over to your app that says, "Oh,

01:17:26   okay, you want to run a station X. Good, I'll start a station X."

01:17:30   Pete Do you –

01:17:32   John It's not complicated,

01:17:34   but it's loaded with possibilities. That's always a good thing.

01:17:37   Pete Do you think I'm on the right track here,

01:17:40   that part of Apple's effort on this regard with widgets on the lock screen in particular,

01:17:45   and with standby, it's taken to a new degree because you don't even have to like,

01:17:50   it's always on with the right iPhone hardware. That's this –

01:17:56   John I think it's always on with all –

01:17:57   Pete Oh, maybe.

01:17:58   John Because it's on the charger, right? If it's not on a charger, maybe not, but –

01:18:02   Pete I wasn't sure –

01:18:03   John If you're on a charger –

01:18:03   Pete I wasn't sure though if –

01:18:04   John Why not?

01:18:04   John I wasn't sure if all existing, all iPhones eligible for iOS 17 have a screen that won't burn

01:18:11   in. I don't know. Well –

01:18:13   Pete Don't know about that. Don't know.

01:18:14   John But if you're not –

01:18:15   Pete If you have that little red mode, right –

01:18:17   John Yeah.

01:18:17   Pete It reduces the, the light reduces,

01:18:20   then so it's not going to be blaring at you all night.

01:18:23   John Well, if it's not all iPhones this year,

01:18:26   sooner rather than later, all iPhones that run on iOS will have this feature. But if you're not

01:18:32   familiar, it's the feature where if it's connected to a MagSafe charger, and I think it has to be

01:18:37   MagSafe, and you put the phone horizontally, it, you get this new mode where you can have the time,

01:18:43   and like you said, like you can show a handful of, of widgets on the screen, and they can do

01:18:49   stuff now. And to me, it's almost like coming full circle where, like you even referenced it when we

01:18:56   were talking about the original iPhone, and when you first did slide to unlock. The original iPhone,

01:19:01   it, it, we all seem so naive that we didn't have passcodes on our iPhones.

01:19:06   Pete Yeah.

01:19:08   John But, but the way –

01:19:09   Pete That's wild.

01:19:10   John Right, but the original idea was,

01:19:12   and you could, I think even the original iPhone did have a preference you could turn on to put a

01:19:18   passcode on it. But the –

01:19:20   Pete Yeah, once, once we had enough important data on it, right?

01:19:23   John Right.

01:19:24   Pete That was the other thing, right? Initially,

01:19:25   all, like all we had were a couple of notes and, you know –

01:19:28   John But the original idea was –

01:19:29   Pete I'm sorry, Tabs.

01:19:30   John You would hit, hit the home button to wake up the screen

01:19:32   and then just slide to unlock and boom, you're in. But like the whole phone in 2007, 2008 was sort of

01:19:41   widget-y, right? It's like, it was sort of like, oh, it's –

01:19:44   Pete Well, it was, the design was inspired by the macOS dashboard.

01:19:48   John Yes, absolutely. Right, the calculator looked,

01:19:51   and the weather calculated –

01:19:52   Pete Yeah, we've seen this stuff before.

01:19:54   John Yeah, the, the calculator and the weather,

01:19:56   and I think in the keynote in January 2007, they even called them widgets. They, I think they were

01:20:02   unsure whether they'd call them apps or widgets. As excited as we were about it, nobody really

01:20:07   thought, oh, this is going to grow to the point where somebody's main computer could be their

01:20:12   iPhone or only computer, right? And there's a lot of people, a lot of serious, like, business people

01:20:18   who do all of their computing on their phones. They really do because that's the nature of their work

01:20:24   and it does what they need. But with widgets, like lock screen widgets, and especially the way they're

01:20:30   evolving in iOS 17, it's sort of like Apple's taken us back to the point where some safe, private

01:20:38   sliver of what we do on our phones, you could do without unlocking it and going into the full

01:20:46   iOS experience. Like –

01:20:47   Pete Right.

01:20:48   John Here's a couple of things –

01:20:49   Pete And there are a lot of things on the phone

01:20:50   that I don't care if somebody starts a music station in Triode and my phone is locked. Yeah,

01:20:57   it's a what? If it's a calorie counter, maybe, but yeah.

01:21:02   John But it's up to you to put it on your lock screen though.

01:21:06   Pete Right. Yes, right. One of the things that's

01:21:09   really cool about the standby is that it actually knows the MagSafe charger that it's hooked up to.

01:21:15   So, if you have one in your bedroom and you have one in your office and maybe you have one in the

01:21:20   kitchen, the other side benefit here is that nobody's gonna care what their battery level

01:21:27   is anymore because it's always gonna be charged. John Right, right, right. Because when you sit

01:21:31   down –

01:21:31   Pete Planes are gonna have these things now too, right?

01:21:33   John Yeah. When you sit down, yeah. I kind of,

01:21:37   I'm looking forward to it. I was just talking with my friends at Studio Neat who make some really

01:21:42   cool, I forget the name of their docs. Pete That's my only thing. It's like,

01:21:46   I gotta get a new Studio Neat because I've got to do the AirPods, the watch, and the phone now,

01:21:52   and it's got to get propped up right. I've got the one that lays flat now.

01:21:56   John But yeah, and it's funny because where I first

01:22:01   realized that MagSafe is more than a dumb puck was when using Apple's MagSafe cases, the indicator for

01:22:12   "Hey, you've got a MagSafe connection" is color coordinated with the case. So, if you put a purple

01:22:17   case on your phone and you connect it to MagSafe, you get a purple indicator.

01:22:22   Pete Yeah, I did not make that connection at all.

01:22:24   John Yeah.

01:22:24   Pete That's pretty cool.

01:22:27   John Yeah, so there's –

01:22:28   Pete You know, Apple thinks ahead. You gotta give it to them. They really do. In fact,

01:22:33   the widgets thing, they put a lot of the pieces in place last year with iOS 16.

01:22:39   John Yeah.

01:22:40   Pete And they could not have done this year without last year.

01:22:43   John Yeah.

01:22:44   Pete It really is. And I can see some stuff now in iOS 17 that's not quite

01:22:50   right and I know they'll fix it next year.

01:22:54   John There's – but you can think about it. Just off the top of your head, the sort of things you'd

01:22:59   want on a standby screen are very different bedside than kitchen.

01:23:04   Pete Yeah. You want to see – I don't care what my calendar is when I'm on the bed.

01:23:08   John Right. Whereas on your kitchen counter,

01:23:11   you might have something entirely different.

01:23:13   Pete Lots of timers. Lots of timers.

01:23:15   John And at your desk, yeah, you want your calendar.

01:23:18   Very interesting. I don't have tons of thoughts about iOS 17, but the one that really jumps out

01:23:25   to me on the iPad is the new AutoCorrect that they talked about being driven by some new AI,

01:23:32   blah, blah, blah. It's the real deal. It is really, really good.

01:23:38   Pete I'm looking forward to that if that's true because it can't get worse. I've told the

01:23:42   chicken berry story before, right? It's not a pleasant thing to use.

01:23:47   John So I've tinkered with it with a spare phone and it's similar, but on the iPad, even with

01:23:52   the Magic Keyboard where I'm typing on a hardware keyboard and normally I don't think, hey,

01:23:59   when I have a good hardware keyboard, I very seldom think I wish I could type faster.

01:24:04   I've often said I'm sort of a crummy typist because I'm a slow thinker. And at some point

01:24:10   in my late teenage years, I learned to type as fast as I can think. And it's

01:24:17   not a very high typing speed, but if I can type as fast as I think, that's fast enough.

01:24:23   But I'm finding myself like, oh, yeah, that's the big long word. Somehow I just started typing

01:24:29   "I am" and it's guessing I wanted impossible. That's exactly what I wanted. You just hit the

01:24:33   space bar and boom, you're on the next word. It is really smart.

01:24:38   John Well, it's also in Sonoma too, right?

01:24:41   Like in TextEdit and things like that, it's gonna, yeah, I hope it's not in Xcode. I do not want

01:24:50   spelling corrections in Xcode. I would love them in TextEdit.

01:24:53   Jay Haynes You know what, though? All the other IDEs that have the copilot stuff, it's gonna get

01:24:59   there. You don't want the same auto completion in Xcode that you want anywhere else. But I think

01:25:06   there's existence proof in VS code with copilot integration that something like this is going to

01:25:15   be ubiquitous. There's that word again in code editors too, including Xcode eventually. It's

01:25:21   really good and really smart. And I can't think of one single way that it's worse. It is as good or

01:25:29   better than the old auto complete system in every way. And I think it's a lot better in a lot of

01:25:34   ways. It just really seems to narrow in on the one guess that makes the most sense contextually over

01:25:42   and over and over again. And if it is wrong, you lose nothing because you just keep typing the word

01:25:47   you actually wanted. There's no—

01:25:49   Jay Haynes So it doesn't get in your way. It's not like a forced change.

01:25:53   Jay Haynes No, no.

01:25:54   Jay Haynes That's for me. Because of the big hands again,

01:25:58   my thumb often hits the space bar in the middle of typing a word. And it splits the word and I end

01:26:06   up with this gibberish.

01:26:07   Jay Haynes I could be underestimating how much it's doing the post typing the end of the word

01:26:15   correction. I guess that's the difference. What I'm impressed by is less auto correcting what you did

01:26:21   type and more all about the auto completion of what you're about to type. And I find that to be

01:26:30   way more satisfying. Like if you're typing the word impossible, because where are your eyes? I am.

01:26:38   You're looking at the blinking insertion point after the M. And when you see a light gray

01:26:45   possible, you know it's right. And then you just hit the space bar and you get the P-O-S-S-I-B-L-E

01:26:52   with just typing the space bar. It is auto complete is to me way better than auto correction,

01:27:01   because you're already knowing what you're going to get.

01:27:03   Jay Haynes It's an aid. Yeah. My understanding of it is that it's doing the AI kind of thing.

01:27:09   Although Apple will never call it AI. It's machine learning. But it's basically working off

01:27:14   a corpus of information. So that if you say that's I am, that's not, that could be that's impulsive,

01:27:22   that's impossible. But if you go further back, and it's like, I saw this and that's,

01:27:27   yeah, that's impossible. That's not impulsive. Right. So it's got more context, I think.

01:27:34   Yeah. And that is really the key because that whole on machine, on device

01:27:42   mechanism that they had, it's like, you make a spelling error once and you live with it the

01:27:47   rest of your life. I really do. And I'm, I wish I'd spent more time. I wish I wish I had more time

01:27:55   with the phone with iOS 17. But I'm impressed with what I've seen so far. And it is the same.

01:28:00   It's this completion. And I really do think it's to me the biggest, we're up to iOS 17th version

01:28:06   of the OS 17th year. And to me, it is the single biggest improvement to this since the

01:28:12   very first iPhone. I mean, it's got copy and paste. Well, no, but I think it's,

01:28:20   I'm just saying just thumb typing alone. Oh, I'm just in the keyboard domain. Yeah,

01:28:26   just in the keyboard domain. I can't say it's I can't say it's better than copy and paste. I

01:28:31   mean, that was that was pretty frustrating. God, that was nasty. Was it iOS 3 that we had to wait

01:28:38   for or was it 4? It was at least. It was a couple years, right. And then it was one of the things

01:28:44   he knew was coming. But I'm really sad. And it had to be right. And it and it's been right for

01:28:50   15 years now or whatever. I'm really surprised, though. It wasn't. I'm not surprised it wasn't in

01:28:55   the first year. But I was very surprised that it wasn't in iOS or iPhone OS as we called it then.

01:29:01   Yeah, but you know, if Apple needs more time to get something right, they do it.

01:29:07   And there was so much to be done, really. I mean, honestly, I mean, in between iOS 1 and 2 was the

01:29:16   whole, hey, App Store, which turned into kind of a big thing. You think? I'm trying to think,

01:29:25   was there anything else? I just highlight. I know. I mean, we could do I could probably do a whole

01:29:30   year worth of shows in the year ahead talking about new features. Just talking about the App

01:29:33   Store? Well, no, talking about iOS 17 features. Well, the recent 15-year anniversary of the App

01:29:40   Store. That's a big deal. Yeah. And here we are waiting for, we spend the whole week waiting to

01:29:47   figure out what Twitter is going to call their app, given the rule with two character or more

01:29:53   letter app names. I guarantee you, Apple has never had to deal with an editor's choice being removed.

01:30:01   That is just incredible. So, we're bringing the show full circle here as we close it down.

01:30:09   Oh, that's true. Yeah. But that is true. You pointed this out. So,

01:30:13   Twitter's app had won an editor's choice award, which really is.

01:30:18   That's like an ADA, right? That's a big deal. That is for a software developer or

01:30:23   a team or a company. That is like a seal of quality. Your app has made it.

01:30:30   That's a good thing. And the X app does not have an editor's choice award now.

01:30:36   No, it's gone. Let's see. Let's make sure it's gone. Let's see.

01:30:40   Oh, also searching for X does not get you to the app.

01:30:43   Yeah. It's like some nice looking apps if you search for X.

01:30:48   All right. Let me tell you what I got. I got in order and surprisingly not an ad at the top.

01:30:55   I can't believe that. Maybe Apple shut that off. I don't know. I've got XVPN, Xbox, Ibis Paint X,

01:31:04   Zender, X-E-N-D-E-R, Xtreme Motorbikes, then Xfinity. Speaking of X logos, I've been wondering,

01:31:14   everybody's talking about these patents or trademarks that Microsoft and Meta have on

01:31:23   social networking related to the letter X. And it's complicated because none of them really say

01:31:29   we own the letter X. It's more about like marks. Of all the companies that might be the most worried

01:31:35   about somebody using X as a logo mark, to me, it's not Meta and Microsoft. It's Comcast with Xfinity.

01:31:43   Like they've got –

01:31:45   Well, the other thing I did the other day is I did a search at the US Patent and Trademark Office,

01:31:52   and there are like 2,600 different word marks registered for X, just the letter X. So,

01:31:59   it's a popular thing. And the problem there again is because everybody uses it, it doesn't really

01:32:05   mean anything. Right? Twitter meant something. Twitter was a unique thing. Right? Like would

01:32:12   Facebook go and call Instagram "I"?

01:32:16   No.

01:32:17   Now, here's what I see when I search for Twitter. I get a paid ad at the top. That's the blue app

01:32:23   for Facebook. And then the next is an app called Twitter with the X logo, still not renamed.

01:32:29   Third is Tweetbot for Twitter. So, let's see, is the editor's choice back? Nope, it is gone.

01:32:39   Yeah. Well, and the wording of it, it's just like it said, "We rely on Twitter to keep us,

01:32:45   to help us express our thoughts and keep up with the news. And with Twitter's Apple TV app,

01:32:51   our 2016 app of the year, we've also got a bigger window into current events and topical discussions

01:32:58   from breaking news, tweets, to live video feeds, and even Thursday Night Football. The benefits of

01:33:04   the little bird are always getting bigger. And you go and replace all those things,

01:33:10   tweets and Twitter and bird with something X, and it just sounds that we're back to the Mad Libs.

01:33:17   [Laughter]

01:33:17   It just makes no sense at all. It sounds like a deranged person wrote it.

01:33:21   Yeah, yeah.

01:33:22   It's like, "We're gonna X the X and X X with X."

01:33:26   Yeah. Or like I said, like a Mad Lib, like, and you know, and Apple really does,

01:33:31   because the editors choice, they don't give them out willy-nilly. They really do write them.

01:33:35   And they, you know, somebody, the famous...

01:33:36   Yeah, there's care in putting into it.

01:33:38   Well, famously, they hired a lot of people who used to be well known as writers at Macworld,

01:33:44   amongst other publications. A lot of people with professional writing backgrounds have been working

01:33:49   at Apple for a long time.

01:33:50   Yeah. And they do a great job. Apple, the App Store editorial team, whenever they ask you anything,

01:33:59   it's like, "Oh, we're thinking about doing a feature on X." It's like, "Oh, you've got all

01:34:02   my time." Right? Because I know you do the right thing. They do a great job with the input from

01:34:09   developers.

01:34:09   Oh, I do. I read them. I mean, I really do.

01:34:12   Yeah, exactly. It's interesting. It's worthwhile.

01:34:15   Not just when they're profiling my friends. I read them when they profile other developers,

01:34:20   too. And I've learned an awful lot of interesting stories about small development teams through the

01:34:26   profiles in the App Store. But if they didn't, if Apple ran this editorially in a very lazy fashion

01:34:34   and they had sort of a fill in the blanks template for an Editor's Choice Award,

01:34:39   maybe they would make Xs those blanks. "Oh, we use X because we X the X."

01:34:46   And it's easy for X because all they got to do is submit the form of no change.

01:34:52   Yeah.

01:34:53   It's just, "We're done!"

01:34:54   [Laughter]

01:34:58   Oh, Jesus. It's entertaining. The level of incompetence, it's actually entertaining.

01:35:08   But it's starting to reach a point where that entertainment value is just, it's like a dumb

01:35:16   thing can only stay interesting and funny for so long and then it's just going to be like,

01:35:21   "Yeah, whatever."

01:35:23   Yeah. You know what? Everything like that has a shorter expiration date than you think. Remember

01:35:28   the Robert Morton Downey Jr.? Remember that guy? He was a talk show host in the '80s and he

01:35:35   literally smoked cigarettes while he was... And sort of invented the Jerry Springer style of like,

01:35:42   "Let's have people on stage get their divorce live on TV," sort of.

01:35:47   Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember that now.

01:35:49   It was really tawdry. And it was like, "Boy, there are people like this. Oh, God. Look at him.

01:35:58   What is he doing?" And then it's like, "Oh, that's that show. Oh, yeah, I'm going to skip that."

01:36:03   I will put a note in the show notes. Hopefully, I'll find a clip on YouTube for you youngsters

01:36:07   who don't remember. But he came out of nowhere. It was an afternoon TV sensation. And then like

01:36:13   two years later, it was off the air. Patience wears thin with stuff like that. Craig,

01:36:19   I enjoy the beach. I don't want to hold you up too much longer.

01:36:22   Yeah, the water's been awesome. It's like in the low 70s. Just, yeah, I'll probably go take a...

01:36:31   I'm probably going to do a long swim today, half mile or so.

01:36:34   Enjoy it before it gets to be like the water off the coast of Florida jacuzzi level.

01:36:39   Yeah, believe me.

01:36:42   There I go again laughing at things that are really not funny, but...

01:36:47   Yeah. Well, last week I was in Tucson, Arizona, where it was high temperatures for all the four

01:36:55   or five days we were there. It was over 115.

01:36:58   Did you see the thing? I know this sounds...

01:37:00   Incredible.

01:37:00   It sounds made up, but there are the... I swear to God, I was listening to...

01:37:05   I think it was on the Keith Olbermann podcast where there was a news story this week.

01:37:08   I don't know if it was Tucson or somewhere else in Arizona, but the hospital's burn unit was

01:37:14   filled up. It had no more beds because the normal number of regular burn victims, but then the rest

01:37:24   of the unit was filled up by people who'd fallen and been burned by the macadam or the pavement.

01:37:29   Yeah.

01:37:31   And that you could get like a third degree burn with 15 seconds of exposure or something like

01:37:37   that. I mean, it was ridiculous. So like...

01:37:39   Yeah. Anybody who has a dog in Tucson in those conditions, they put shoes on them, right?

01:37:44   Yeah, they have to.

01:37:44   The shoes are meant for like dogs that are walking through snow and ice.

01:37:47   Yeah. And if you've ever noticed the... I guess the hottest pavement I've ever experienced is in

01:37:56   Vegas, obviously very hot in the summertime. But they said that the surface temperature of

01:38:01   asphalt was 180 degrees Fahrenheit.

01:38:05   Yeah.

01:38:05   Well, I guess it doesn't matter what Fahrenheit Celsius, I don't know, 180, that's a burn.

01:38:10   Well, it starts to get sticky too, right? You can actually feel it as you're walking.

01:38:14   It's like, "This is not right."

01:38:15   It's frightening.

01:38:17   I mean, unbelievable. Fall on the ground and go to the burn unit. I mean,

01:38:20   things we never thought we'd see again. Anyway, 70 degrees sounds absolutely beautiful for the

01:38:28   water temperature. Thanks and say hello to all your friends at the Icon Factory.

01:38:32   It's always a pleasure.

01:38:34   I will talk to you soon.

01:38:34   So go to iconfactoryapps.com and see all our stuff.

01:38:38   Yeah. There will be a link in the show notes, including to Triode, which we've mentioned

01:38:43   several times, I guess.

01:38:44   Yeah. Yeah. That's gonna be a big release in September.

01:38:48   Yeah. That's awesome. For people who don't... I don't know. Do we just say it? I think we

01:38:52   kind of hinted at it.

01:38:53   Well, it kind of obliquely, yeah. It's an internet radio app that's not scummy, no ads, no bullshit.

01:39:03   Just, you know, here's a stream, listen to it. What gets me through my work day every day.

01:39:09   And well, and for something you listen to, like everything,

01:39:13   every product from Icon Factory, pretty to look at too.

01:39:15   Yeah, yeah. And it also, I listen to it in the living room on the TV,

01:39:20   tvOS, I listen to it on my Mac, listen to it on my phone. It's just,

01:39:24   there's that word again, it's ubiquitous.

01:39:27   Anyway, and my thanks also to our sponsors for the show, our good friends at Squarespace,

01:39:32   where you can build your own website and Backblaze, where you can get online backup

01:39:36   for your Mac or PC for seven bucks a month. My thanks to them. Thank you, Craig.

01:39:40   Yep. It's been a pleasure, John. Talk to you later.