0:00:00[Music]
0:00:09From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 470. Today's show is brought to you by
0:00:14TexExpander. My name is Mike Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snow. Hi, Jason.
0:00:19Avengers Assemble! Okay. Or something. I don't know. Some are fun. Some are fun indeed. Some are fun.
0:00:28Some are... we had a conversation before the show about the Avengers, which is... Yes, and about
0:00:34Banana Man. Yep. UK superhero Banana Man, who I had never heard of. No. Okay, so quick primer. Banana Man
0:00:42was a superhero-like character from a comic called The Dandy. Banana Man was a boy and when he ate
0:00:52a banana, he turned into a superhero called Banana Man. Yeah, potassium. We were talking about that before the show.
0:00:56It's good for you, kids. I mean, it feels like maybe there's like some Popeye in there a little bit, you know?
0:01:02Maybe this was like financed by the banana board or something? That's exactly what I was
0:01:06going to say. It feels a little bit like some money from the banana sellers went toward this.
0:01:10Oh, to be an adult and lose that innocence of childhood. There's always money in the banana
0:01:16stand. In the banana stand, it's true. There always is. I have a snow-tall question to open today's show
0:01:21correctly rather than what we just opened with. It comes from Ramon who asks, "What is the first thing
0:01:26that you do to decompress after recording a podcast?" Oh, I'm curious about your answer here, too, but
0:01:33I'll answer first. A lot of times when I finish a podcast, there's ancillary work to be done,
0:01:39so I'm not allowed to decompress, right? So like for an incomparable podcast, when I finish, I collect
0:01:45all the files, I have to upload the bootleg. If it's a TPK or something, we have video, I have to
0:01:51take the video file that was done on the live stream and encode that and post it for the people
0:01:57because members can get it as a video podcast. There's a whole... pass it on to the editor. There's
0:02:02a whole bunch of steps that happen before I can even step away. And then for those, which are
0:02:09usually in the evening, what I do to decompress is walk out like a zombie into my living room
0:02:15and my wife and I will watch something on TV that does not require much of my brain, and that's about
0:02:20it. For upgrade, lately it's been really tough because of our new video venture that we're doing.
0:02:29When I'm done with upgrade, I mean, I will get up and like move my legs around and maybe get a cup
0:02:35of tea or get something to drink or something like that, but then I come right back here
0:02:38and get Mike's video file and my video file and put them together in Final Cut, and I look at the
0:02:43show notes to see what we've got as our markers for clips that we might want to generate. And
0:02:48right now I'm generating those clips and then passing them on to Jamie, our social media intern.
0:02:54So yeah, usually after that it is like I'm making lunch or I'm walking the dog or some combination
0:03:04thereof, but it is true, and I wonder if you find this, Mike, that after doing a podcast and having
0:03:10that kind of intensity, my brain needs a break after that. It really does. You can feel like
0:03:17I need to do something else for a little while because my brain's a little melted.
0:03:21I have that feeling sometimes, but rarely. I think I've been doing this for so long and so often,
0:03:30I just carry on with whatever next thing is in my day. There are times where, you know,
0:03:36like some Cortex episodes, me and Grey are like on the phone for like six hours, right? And after
0:03:42those, I need a little bit of a break, but like when we're done with upgrade, today what I'll do
0:03:47is I'll go do my journal because it's time for journaling. I'll pack up my bag and I'll go home.
0:03:51Like that's a reasonable break. That's like me getting up and going and making myself lunch or
0:03:58just getting a drink and then coming back and jumping back in because I can't, I mean,
0:04:01I have to work the rest of the day. So that much is true. I don't know. There's something about
0:04:05being comparable. Maybe it's that it's in the evening and also that I'm doing the,
0:04:08you know, I'm doing the hosting and arbitrating between many panelists, but that one seems more
0:04:14strenuous than, but this one, I still, you know, I still want to take a little bit of a break. I
0:04:20don't want to remain seated and then just begin the video. I at least try to stretch my legs and,
0:04:25and like I said, you know, have a, get a soda or whatever, just something to break the monotony.
0:04:30Yeah. I think for me, like most days where I record a podcast, I am recording multiple
0:04:37podcasts. So it's like, I just, I've gotten used to that. I just go to the next one.
0:04:44That is, that's a lot. I've done it this way since the very beginning. So like, for me, this is,
0:04:50it's just normal. But I do know that like, and I understand, like, it's, it's like, if you have any
0:04:54long meeting, like if you have like a two hour meeting, like it's just a little tax. You want to,
0:04:59you want to take a, you want to take a little refresher. So usually for me, that'll be a,
0:05:03you know, something like walk the dog or, or, or make some lunch or just something to, to have,
0:05:07like, cause also working at home, um, a lot of what I do is sort of like, uh, trying to create
0:05:14little gaps, little refreshment gaps where it's like, okay, I'm going to stop doing this. I'm
0:05:18going to take a little tiny gap and it doesn't have to be long even. And then I'm going to jump
0:05:22into this next thing. Cause I want there to, I don't want to feel like I've just stayed on
0:05:25the treadmill. I want to have a little bit more beyond that. Yeah. I mean, like there are lots
0:05:30of productivity, like, uh, thinkings that subscribe to that fear, like the Pomodoro
0:05:35technique or whatever, like that you would, that you're supposed to work intensely, take a break,
0:05:39quick and as they like, honestly, after, after sitting here for two hours doing this podcast,
0:05:43the, I know that that final cut task right now is going to take some time. Yeah. And I want to give
0:05:50myself a little bit of a gap before I sit back down to do that, you know, five minutes even,
0:05:55because having that going from one level of intensity to another level of intensity,
0:06:01all without a little bit of a gap is, is a bit much. So, um, yeah. Yeah. It's a good question.
0:06:07It is. It's funny. And you're right, Mike, to point out that the level of
0:06:11difficulty can really vary between podcasts. Right? Like I don't, I, you know, if I talked to
0:06:19Scott McNulty about a Star Trek episode or something like that, that's not, that's like,
0:06:23not even work. It's not a problem. But if I'm, if I'm wrangling five panelists on the incomparable
0:06:29or, you know, spending two hours in front of a video camera for twit for Mac break weekly,
0:06:36right? Like that's the, those are more intense. That's a different thing. Because there's a more
0:06:41focus and you're on. Yeah, exactly. If you would like to send in a question to help us
0:06:47answer a future episode of the show, just go to upgradefeedback.com and send us in a Snell talk.
0:06:53Thank you to Ramon for that great question. I have some follow up for you, Jason Snow. I have quite a
0:06:58few items of follow up for you today. I have more on the LOL emoji, if you could believe it. Great.
0:07:03Anthony wrote in and said, I use an Australian English keyboard on iOS, and it seems to suggest
0:07:09the same thing Mike is getting for British English. I get the same three emoji that Mike is getting.
0:07:15So it's not just the British English keyboard, it's the Australian English keyboard as well.
0:07:20So it seems like there's like some kind of anti non American English, like rhetoric going on here
0:07:27with the emoji. I did want to give an update that in the newest beta, I guess this is kind of a
0:07:32btale but the the ruffle, you know, we had the rolling on the floor laughing emoji that has been
0:07:38replaced now to face with tears of joy, which is one of the original that should be in there.
0:07:45So we are now just two down one to go. So what we're still hoping for here is the winking face
0:07:53with tongue emoji to be replaced with grinning squinting face and then we'll be back to normal.
0:08:01So slowly getting there. Grinning squinting face is the goal. That's what I'm wanting. Yeah.
0:08:07The one with the like the winking face with the tongue is just not good. It's just not
0:08:15lol or all. That is not an lol in the least. Neither was a rolling on the floor laughing.
0:08:22No, it's got its own thing. That's a that's a ruffle is ruffle. lol lol is lol. That's just it.
0:08:29Ruffle is ruffle. lol is lol. And and grin and GSF the grinning squinting face is GSF.
0:08:37GSF. Everyone knows GSF. GSF or GTFO. Okay.
0:08:41There we go. We got it. We landed on it. I wanted to talk more about the less fun thing,
0:08:49the online safety bill that I was talking about on the last episode. Oh, yay. I was both
0:08:55saddened and understanding of the of how many people wrote in to tell me that they live in
0:09:01the United Kingdom and had no idea this was happening, which was my experience too, right?
0:09:06But it makes me sad that this has gotten by so many people. And in the last episode,
0:09:13I posited a theory that this might be Apple's fault with the CSAM scanning. Yeah, I have received
0:09:21some communication from my local member of parliament who says, I do not believe that
0:09:27the legislation impacting private messaging will damage this encryption as a variety of technologies
0:09:33are emerging that could allow for scanning on issues such as child sexual abuse material
0:09:37while retaining the privacy benefits afforded by end to end encryption. So after reading this,
0:09:45100% in my mind, they saw the on-device CSAM scanning and that unlocked for them
0:09:52of like, oh no, this can't be done. Now, this wasn't Apple's intention. I understand that.
0:09:57But even without this technology having been implemented, it unlocked the Pandora's box that
0:10:04we thought it was going to. When we were talking about this, whether a couple of years ago or
0:10:10whatever, it was with this kind of stuff in mind that once you show that there is a way to do
0:10:17on-device snooping, you have highlighted to anyone in around the world that this kind of technology
0:10:25is available and what pressures that may then put on Apple from worldwide governments.
0:10:32And even though they never implemented it, I believe it's one of the reasons why our
0:10:39government feel like they are able to implement this and be able to say, hey, we're fine with
0:10:46encryption. Right? As long as your, yeah, as long as your software is snooping on you before it gets
0:10:51encrypted, we're okay with it. Yeah, this is the, we talked last week, it was the title, I think,
0:10:56about the, that bring in the boffins moment, which is this belief that the, you know, tech wizards
0:11:02will solve anything and something like this gives more ammunition to the bring in the boffins
0:11:10argument. Right? Which is, we look, we didn't say you have to not encrypt things. We just said you
0:11:18have to find a way to do what we want while also encrypting them is fine. You can do that,
0:11:24but you got to be able to do what we want. And, yeah, well, I guess we'll see.
0:11:29And I just want to, you know, just as a point, my member of parliament is a member of the
0:11:34Labour Party. Like this is a cross party thing, right? Like there, this isn't just like a Tory
0:11:41thing, right? Like this is my, my main concern about this legislation is that there's, once it's
0:11:49done, it's done because all governments are going to want this because of what it could allow them
0:11:54to do. And there is no good or bad in this scenario. And if you're the minority parties
0:12:00seeking power, which Labour absolutely is, you know, you're also trying to search. We talked
0:12:05last week about how politicians don't want to ever be seen as, as being, they don't want to ruin your
0:12:10your phone, but they also don't want to seem weak on, you know, fairly easy issues like protecting
0:12:16us from terrorism and things like that. If you're the minority party running for power, the last
0:12:20thing you want is to hand your opposition something like they're soft on child sex abuse materials and
0:12:26terrorism. Yeah. And that's right. And that's just like an easy thing there. But, but then also it's
0:12:32just like, I don't believe we have good and bad, um, like political parties. They, everything's a
0:12:41level of gray and they would love to be able to snoop for whatever it is they need to snoop for
0:12:48when they're in power, the same as whatever government might want it now. And I think that
0:12:52we shouldn't have this technology implemented, but I fear that we, the genie is out of the bottle now.
0:12:58Could be. Lionel M.L.S.C. Do you like that?
0:13:03Ah, yes. Um, sure.
0:13:05That's pretty good, right? Because it basically just is Lionel M.L.S.C. now. The entire major
0:13:10league soccer organization is just spearheaded by Lionel M.S.C. Uh, and it seems to have started
0:13:18well. I think I got a push notification on my phone of like, along the lines of like,
0:13:23from Apple TV of like, watch Lionel M.S.C. against whatever team.
0:13:28Yeah. He's just, he's, he takes him on himself now. He's that good.
0:13:32It's been going very well. I've got reporting from the Verge here. He says, while Apple did not
0:13:37release specific numbers in a statement, Apple spokesperson, Tom Newmayors suggests, explained
0:13:43that the week of July 19th to 26th had the quote three most watched matches ever on M.L.S.C's and
0:13:51pass. I like ever like ever's doing a lot of work here on the thing that's a year old.
0:13:54Ever. In all time, ever dating all the way back to February.
0:14:02With viewers in almost 100 countries and regions around the world and the fans for those matches
0:14:09were roughly split between the M.L.S.C. season pass in English and Spanish language.
0:14:14Yeah. A lot of people in Argentina, especially I would think watching that.
0:14:20Yeah. Uh, and I saw like, it feels like Apple was continuing to double down on the recent success
0:14:26with like the multi platform of M.L.S. that they now have a new podcast and M.L.S. podcast called
0:14:35offside of Taylor Twelman, who was a M.L.S. player sometime ago. And a commentator, one of the more
0:14:41popular, I think TV commentators, Taylor Twelman. Yeah, I think so. Uh, so this is similar to like
0:14:47the way that I look at this is like similar to their behind the scenes, like TV plus podcasts
0:14:51where, because this is produced by, I think it's Apple and they're working with a production
0:14:56company as well. They can just have access to, I guess, kind of anyone like the most recent episode
0:15:02features, uh, is it your gay mass? Okay. Mass is the, is the owner of Inter Miami owner of
0:15:08Inter Miami. Yeah. And yeah, this is like, he's a partner of Apple. Yep. Uh, Taylor Twelman is one
0:15:14of Apple's top, I think, uh, commentary people for M.L.S. season pass. Uh, so now that you do a
0:15:20podcast, it's all, you know, it's all, this is, this is what's really interesting about this deal,
0:15:25even for people, uh, who roll their eyes at MLS and people outside the U S who roll their eyes
0:15:30at it because it's a smaller league, a lower quality league and people inside the U S roll
0:15:34their eyes at it because it's soccer. But what's really interesting about it is you've also got
0:15:39this case where you've got a streaming platform in total alignment with the league. And what does
0:15:45that mean? Like, and they're just starting to try, they're trying stuff and they're, they're
0:15:50figuring it out and it's very interesting. And I am, I will tell you, I'm sure every other
0:15:57sport league in the world is paying attention to this, right? Just because like, what does this
0:16:02mean for the future of this sort of thing? And until I've been reading this book, um,
0:16:07actually about soccer, uh, by Rory Smith called expected goals. Um, that that's about sort of
0:16:15like the impact of money ball kind of thinking on soccer. And one of the points in the book is the
0:16:21truth is that in any of these sports, um, there's a lot of followers. So they want to, people don't
0:16:29want to be an outlier. They don't want to be different. And so they are going to be
0:16:33resistance to change, resistant to change until the moment when somebody else does it. And if
0:16:40somebody else does it and it looks good, then they feel free to do it and they'll immediately do it.
0:16:45Um, and this MLS deal with Apple feels to me like a really great now somebody's doing it moment and
0:16:55everybody else is going to pay attention to it. And if it works, they'll rip off the stuff that
0:17:00works and they won't do the stuff that doesn't work. But I think that's what's so fascinating
0:17:04about it is that the, the Apple is a streamer, um, and MLS as a league and they're like tightly
0:17:12integrated, right? They are shoulder to shoulder on this product. This is, this is both of those
0:17:17companies and the company in the league working together to make this happen.
0:17:21Which is, you should say like, we've, and we spoke about it at the time, we spoke about it
0:17:26multiple times. This is just a thing that's not really ever happened in this way before.
0:17:30Like getting rights is very different to like what Apple is doing with the MLS here, where they are
0:17:35like, they are in lock step of each other over the, like the way things are presented, the movement
0:17:42of the sport, right? Like they are actual real partners rather than just like a provider of
0:17:48something, you know, like you, whether you're the provider of the sport or the provider of the
0:17:52cables to put out the wall on, which is typically how these things are done, but Apple and the major
0:17:58league soccer are effectively together on this one. Yeah. Yeah. And, and by the way, there are
0:18:04rumors out there that Apple is talking to other soccer leagues too. Of course. Um, it's going to
0:18:10be smaller ones. I don't know whether they're still rumored to be, um, talking to the Dutch league.
0:18:16Um, but like they're, you know, they're interested in this and there could be synergies there as well.
0:18:22Um, and as they learn things about dealing with soccer for MLS, they may go to other places too.
0:18:27It's it's yeah, it's, this is look sports broadcasting is not going to be the same in
0:18:3310 years or 15 years, right? It's going to be radically different. And I mean, but how different
0:18:38in a year, right? It could be, I mean, it's changing rapidly, but, but it's going to, but
0:18:44where, where does it lead? What is it? It's more final form. Um, remains to be seen, but this is
0:18:49something that is, uh, definitely worth everybody paying attention because it's going to give us
0:18:55some clues about where this is all going. And a report from the sports business journal says
0:19:00addressing the MLS board of governors just days before the world's greatest soccer player, Lionel
0:19:05Messi would debut fit into Miami. Eddie Q smiled at the group and told them, boy, did you deliver.
0:19:11And nearly five months into its first season with Apple holding its media rights, MLS executive and
0:19:17owners both publicly and privately said they are very happy with the results so far. Yeah.
0:19:23Speaking, I'm just going to put this out there because I thought it was such a great piece. Um,
0:19:28Rory Smith, who is the soccer columnist who wrote the book that I'm reading soccer columnists for
0:19:33the New York times and excellent writer, just a really good writer. And he wrote a column,
0:19:38um, right before the world cup about the messy signing. And what he said was everybody in America
0:19:50keeps talking about, and Jorge Mas talked about this, uh, that this is the moment like, oh,
0:19:55this is the moment when America gets soccer and the Beckham signing was, this is the moment that
0:19:59America gets soccer. And, um, Rory Smith's point was, um, that they're all missing it.
0:20:07And that we've already passed that point. Um, not to say that there isn't much, much more growth
0:20:13possible with MLS in terms of money and in terms of teams and in terms of professional soccer in
0:20:17the United States, but the idea that people in soccer confuse, um, primacy for success.
0:20:29And the idea there is everybody else in the world doesn't understand why soccer isn't the number one
0:20:34sport in America and isn't the number one sport in Australia. Uh, and isn't the number one sport in
0:20:39India and, uh, can't get over that to realize that they're successful. In fact, more Americans say
0:20:47that they're a fan of whatever that means soccer than hockey now, right? Like, so it is moving up
0:20:53in the ranks. Plus it's the second most popular participatory sport in America behind basketball.
0:21:00So Rory Smith's point is basically America has already embraced soccer. It's got a league with
0:21:0629 teams and the quality is growing, even though it's not at the level of even like the French
0:21:12league at this point, it's growing. And, uh, a deal like the Apple deal, I would say is it only
0:21:19helps that case, but it's also a, I would say a soccer expert saying, look, everybody who's
0:21:26waiting for that magical moment when the U S got soccer, like the U S got soccer, putting all of
0:21:31the, uh, the major European leagues. They're all available in the U S on TV now and have been for
0:21:39the last few years. Like the soccer culture in America is growing by leaps and bounds. And, and
0:21:45if you're waiting for that magic moment where it's bigger than the NFL, let me tell you,
0:21:50it's never going to happen and it doesn't need to be how it's judged. So, um, I think that the
0:21:55Messi stuff has been a little overblown, but, um, but it's good for the league and it's good for its
0:22:00visibility and it's good for the sport, um, in the U S and potentially out. I would imagine,
0:22:05I really am waiting for that story of like the people in Latin America who are, who are getting
0:22:09to watch Messi at a better time of day and, and, uh, and, uh, in, and how they like, uh, Apple
0:22:16Spanish language broadcast people in Argentina, how are they feeling about it? Um, I haven't seen
0:22:20those stories, but, uh, we'll keep watching it and they'll keep playing soccer. So.
0:22:24Pontner, do you want to saddle up? Oh, uh, let me see. I, yeah. Okay. Saddle. Yep. All right.
0:22:32Right. Right. Ride them cowboy. We're going to ride on down to round up. All right.
0:22:36Mark. Gorman has published the article that I look forward to every year, which is his,
0:22:41what can we expect from Apple in the fall? And so usually these things we've heard some level of
0:22:48them. Um, we've heard things that may or may not be in what Mark Gorman is talking about in his
0:22:54newsletter, but this is, I always feel like a real good, like this is the yardstick for what we can
0:23:00and cannot expect to come from Apple in September. I agree with regards to the iPhone and the Apple
0:23:06watch. So I'm going to go through some of the things that Mark spoke about. So with the phones,
0:23:11with kind of screen stuff, we're going to see the dynamic Island across all the phones. So the 15 to
0:23:1615, uh, plus pro and max will all have the dynamic Island now, but the pro phones are going to get a
0:23:24new, a new display made from a new kind of process called low injection pressure over-molding LIPO.
0:23:32When I originally read this, I was like, isn't this, they are no LTPO is what's in them right
0:23:38now, which is about the, which is a different thing is LTPO. It allows the always on display.
0:23:44It's something it's an acronym like that, but that is a completely different thing to what this is,
0:23:49which is how the screen is made. Basically the reason Apple will move to this process
0:23:54is it allows for the bezels to shrink. Currently the bezels on the pro phones is to a 2.2 millimeters.
0:24:00This is going to bring it down to 1.5 millimeters. So all the time getting smaller and smaller and
0:24:05smaller. If this becomes a thing, can we rename the room around up the LIPO section? We most
0:24:11certainly can, Jason. Okay. Just, well, just in case, in case we have a whole segment,
0:24:16it's just about low injection pressure over-molding. I want that segment to be called
0:24:20I think LIPO section. The segment you are currently in, in room around up, it may be the
0:24:25only time we ever talk about this. So we will say that right now, this is the LIPO section of room
0:24:30around up. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. This screen technology, LIPO, was first used by Apple in the
0:24:38Apple watch series seven. And it was there again to like help them make the bezel smaller and
0:24:43smaller on the screens. And Mark Gurman is also saying that he expects that Apple will use this
0:24:48process with the iPad as well in the future. It's all just about like less and less and less
0:24:53border required around a screen. Yeah. That's, that's bottom line here is Apple hates, the lead
0:24:58of his piece was about this too, which I've thought for a while now, which is what is Apple's
0:25:03vision of the ultimate iPhone? And the answer is no bezel, no cutouts, just screen. And so the,
0:25:14like, reduced cutouts and the dynamic island and all that is part of it. And then always,
0:25:18always just trying to get the bezel to be smaller. And, and I know there are people who will say,
0:25:24come on, it's fine. Right. But Apple just doesn't think it's fine. Apple keeps thinking that
0:25:29the less bezel, the better, and is spending a lot of time and resources trying to engineer
0:25:34new methods of mounting these displays so that they can get that bezel down from like
0:25:392.2 millimeters to 1.5 millimeters, which those are both very small numbers, but one of them is
0:25:46a lot smaller than the other one. And Apple cares, right? Apple cares. And I think people care. I
0:25:52think, I think if you look at a back at a, an older phone that you use with a bigger bezel,
0:25:58you would say, you would say, ew, gross. Right. Like even you might not, you get used to it real
0:26:04fast, but I think going backward, you see it. Yep. And you know, this is like one of those
0:26:10things like I could really appreciate of like, well, when you're a designer at Apple, you know,
0:26:14you have all of the resources in the world available to you. And if you have a goal that
0:26:20you want to achieve, you just keep taking chunks out of it until you get there. And this is another
0:26:24one. There's still a bezel, but it's smaller. And then maybe in another five years, they'll come
0:26:29across another process and they make it even smaller, right? They just keep going and going
0:26:33and going until the edge of the phone screen is the edge of the phone. And that's it because who
0:26:40wouldn't want that? It would be beautiful. The 15 and 15 plus will get quote major camera
0:26:46improvements as well as the A16 chip, which is in the 14 pro. Remember the iPhone 14 did not get a
0:26:55processor upgrade at all, right? Like it actually just stuck around, but this is going to be putting
0:27:00the A16 into there. No detail on major camera improvements. Do you think it's going to be the
0:27:0748 megapixel sensor? I mean, it might be. It could be just rolling that in to the lower end model
0:27:15and then upgrading the higher end model even further. Like that could be. My hope with that is
0:27:22they put the 48 megapixel camera sensor everywhere and then actually unlock the true potential of
0:27:28that. Cause I don't feel like we got it right with the 14 pro. Like the sensor is there and you can,
0:27:35you know, you can take an image in certain circumstances or using other apps where you can
0:27:41get the full sensor and it can look amazing and get some great detail out of it if it's processed
0:27:46correctly. But I feel like I and many others were hoping that it would make some kind of leap in
0:27:54like the overall image quality. And I don't think it has. I will actually say I've been kind of
0:27:58frustrated recently with the 14 pro by adding that sensor in they need to enable the macro sensor
0:28:08way too often for me and the macro quote unquote, which is the ultra wide, it doesn't look as good.
0:28:14And so there are times where I'm trying to take a picture of something close up and it has to switch
0:28:18over and then they end up with a worse photo because of the fact that I have the higher sensor.
0:28:23So like, I don't really feel like I'm getting the benefit most of the time for a lot of the things
0:28:29that I want to take pictures of. So I wonder if, I wonder if what they might do is put that high
0:28:36end sensor on the lower end phones, but only have the two cameras like they have before.
0:28:48And then use, so there would be a wide and a normal or an ultra wide and a wide, I don't even
0:28:58know how they define them anymore, but imagine that and then they would essentially have a
0:29:02virtual third camera, sort of like how there's a virtual fourth camera on the pro models now.
0:29:07I said, oh, by the way, I said last week, I called the 14 max instead of 14 plus.
0:29:17Remember iPhone math? Anyway, there are two, one of them is bigger than the other.
0:29:21- Oh my God, iPhone math.
0:29:22- iPhone math, that was, that was because it was the iPhone plus,
0:29:26but it was mistranslated as iPhone math. It was amazing. That was back on iPhone six.
0:29:30- That is one of the great rumors, man.
0:29:32- iPhone math, that's what it's going to be called. Like not even Apple is dumb enough
0:29:35to call something iPhone math. Pro max, sure. Math, not so much. So anyway, I do wonder if
0:29:43they might take that 48 and put it in the lower end phone, but the details of like, how does that,
0:29:52how does that get used? And is there only one other camera on that unit and how did, you know,
0:29:59does it look like it's a more, you know, they do the virtual camera thing where it uses all
0:30:02the pixels or it bins them and all that. I don't know. Interesting idea. Major camera improvements
0:30:08is very vague, but I think that would be my guess. Like I kind of doubt that they're going to invent
0:30:14a new camera for the 15, right? More likely that it's a recycled camera from another device.
0:30:22- Which and as well, like it would make sense to me then maybe why you would want to put the A16
0:30:28in there, because you've got to imagine that there has to be some kind of like linking between this
0:30:34higher quality camera sensor and the processor, right? So it can fully like work these two things
0:30:42in tandem. - And if it's two cameras instead of three, they, you know, it's a little bit
0:30:45decontented, it's a little bit cheaper, but they're still using the chip and they're still
0:30:50maybe using that sensor and like, because again, Apple is great at recycling things, right? That's
0:30:58how Apple is able to do everything that it does. It reuses a lot of the technology that it's got.
0:31:03So if it's been making that sensor or buying that sensor and integrating it, and it's got the A16
0:31:09and like it knows how to do all of that stuff and has been doing it for a year and now can roll it
0:31:14down into another product, because then it's got the high-end stuff going into the Pro instead.
0:31:18- And especially, you know, it would make sense this year because of the expected changes to the
0:31:25Pro camera that you could get away with, although it's only been a year, you can put it in the
0:31:31regular one. Now, this is where I'm going to quote this, on the Pro phones, there will be quote,
0:31:37"major rear camera upgrades, including updated lenses and the ability to get a much wider range
0:31:43of optical zoom on the largest model." Now, I don't know why Mark isn't saying periscope lens here,
0:31:50but like, that's what we expect this to be. But this could be like one of those things where
0:31:57no one is yet really sure how Apple's doing it, right? But like their own funny way, you know,
0:32:03of making this work that nobody else has done before, or maybe they're just doing a periscope
0:32:07lens, but they won't call it that. - It could be a periscope lens or it could be like,
0:32:12"Oh, we thought it was going to be a periscope lens, but it turns out it's this other esoteric
0:32:16thing that nobody's really doing, but they decided to do it and they're happy with it,
0:32:19so they're going to ship that." Like, yeah, there's the hedging here, or he knows some of the back-end
0:32:25specs of it, but doesn't quite know the details of how they get there. - It's like, "I know that
0:32:30there's going to be a wider range of optical zoom on the largest model, but I can't tell you how."
0:32:35Like, we can all presume it, right? We're all presuming it, but if you don't, you know,
0:32:40like you know the output, but you don't know the process of getting there. - For people who don't
0:32:45know what we mean by periscope lens, this is how do you get a thin-ish phone to have more optical
0:32:53characteristics? Because usually you need a longer lens to do more zoom, and how can you have a longer
0:32:59lens? I mean, they already have the camera bump, and there's like the camera block with the bumps
0:33:04on top of it, right? Like, you can extend out and you can get some of that, but ultimately you can't
0:33:10have a phone with a giant lens sticking out of it. So what they do is they have a mirror that turns
0:33:17the light sideways so that you can run some of the length of that optical path down the length of the
0:33:24phone inside instead of the thickness of the phone. It's a very clever idea. Some other phones do that
0:33:31too. - It's almost like magic to me, like how this actually works. Like, I understand it. I've seen
0:33:39it done a bunch of times. I understand your explanation. I still don't fully know how it works,
0:33:44you know what I mean? It's like, I believe it works, but I don't know exactly how it works.
0:33:48Light works in mysterious ways. It's all optics. You see, Snell's law tells us that refraction is,
0:33:54I'm not going to get into it here, but you can look it up. Snell's law. It's real.
0:33:58Oh, okay. I thought that... - No, Snell's law is real. It was not mine. I didn't make that law.
0:34:05Previous Snell made that law for me. But yeah, light does fantastic, weird things, and you can
0:34:11do stuff like flip it sideways so that you can have your lens and your optics happening inside
0:34:18the phone body instead of right on the back. Samsung has done that and other phone manufacturers
0:34:23have done that. It's a logical progression for the iPhone because Apple cares so much about camera
0:34:30quality. Beyond a certain point, you just can't make the lenses any longer. So this is what you do.
0:34:38Can't wait to see it, by the way. It's going to be great. And if it's in the Pro Max,
0:34:42that is going to make that phone that much more interesting. If it's really like a groundbreaking
0:34:49iPhone camera that's way beyond what Apple has done before, that would be... It might drive a
0:34:54lot of people into Pro Max Club, is what I'm saying. - I feel like it makes sense to me,
0:34:59you know, like in the way we were just talking about the technology going down,
0:35:03that it would just be in the Pro Max to make it the easiest on them because it would be
0:35:07something new, complicated to make, and they have the space to build it into the phone more easily
0:35:12because the phone is bigger. And honestly, we've spoken about this before, but this is how I could
0:35:17imagine what you just said about, "Oh, it's such a big change. This is how they call it the ultra,
0:35:24right? That they're taking a big step. This is now something we've never done before."
0:35:29- That could be. - That kind of a name.
0:35:31- This is the perfect time. I don't know if the rumors... I think it's unclear in its marketing,
0:35:36so it's really hard to get that sense, but like if there's a periscope camera and it is vastly
0:35:41beyond the quality of any iPhone camera ever before, I think it does it a disservice to call
0:35:47it Pro Max, right? At that point, you really do want to call it ultra and say, "This is not just
0:35:53a big pro. This is a whole huge step forward and you want to differentiate that." It'll probably
0:35:59raise the price even more, but like go to town, go for it. I think that's great.
0:36:04- The Pro phones will get a new three nanometer chip.
0:36:07- Right. A 17. - All the phones will get USB-C.
0:36:14- By the way, I enjoy Mark Herman struggling like the rest of us in describing the benefit
0:36:20of having a faster chip. - Snappier.
0:36:23- Yeah, he literally said they'll be snappier. And it's like, "God, the power of these chips is so
0:36:32spectacular." And Apple is ahead of the competition. They're ahead of Qualcomm's
0:36:36chips here too and all that. But I reached the point in the last couple of years where I'm not
0:36:42sure it matters anymore. I mean, sometimes it will matter in detail if there's some incredibly
0:36:47complex graphics thing or machine learning thing and all of that. And obviously, the increased
0:36:51power increases the size of the platform that lets the software not just do things snappier,
0:36:58but do things they couldn't do before because they would take an unreasonable amount of time.
0:37:03Or in the case of the three nanometer process, maybe the most important thing is that
0:37:06it will be more power efficient. And so battery life will be better. Or they'll be able to take
0:37:12some of that battery out in order to put the periscope camera in. I don't know. But it is
0:37:18a struggle where he's just trying to say, "Look, there's going to be a new chip using the new
0:37:22process." But he needs to say, "As a writer, you're always prompted to do this." But why?
0:37:28Why does that matter? What is the relevance there? And so he's like,
0:37:31"It'll be snappier." It's like, "Sure, sure it'll be. Yeah, it'll totally be snappier."
0:37:37People will get this phone and they'll be like, "Whoa, the snappy."
0:37:42- So snappy. - Uh-huh.
0:37:44- The Pro phones are going to get titanium on the sides. So we're moving away from stainless steel
0:37:50to titanium with a slight curve on the back glass. So the back glass will have more of a softer feel
0:37:58to it. Maybe it's nicer to hold. Maybe it's more slippery to hold. We'll find out.
0:38:04- We don't know. They said it's going to have the frosted glass look, which is that muted look that
0:38:07I don't really like on the Pro phones. So it sounds like they're keeping that. Titanium though.
0:38:12Titanium is nice. My Apple Watch is titanium. It's light. It's very nice. And as we detailed in our
0:38:18little science corner a few months ago, you can anodize titanium. So you don't have to do what
0:38:24Apple did back in the day with the titanium power book and paint it and then have the paint flake
0:38:28off. You actually anodize it and it's fine. And I've had this black titanium Apple Watch for two
0:38:33years now, and it doesn't have any paint on it, and it doesn't chipped, and it's all still beautiful.
0:38:40And what I'm saying is a big fan. My question is, just I'm going to put this out there. Maybe this
0:38:45could be a draft item. You know how Apple talks about the medical grade, surgical grade? Sorry,
0:38:51not medical, surgical grade stainless steel on the iPhone? What is the titanium? Is it like aerospace
0:38:58grade titanium or something? Well, the aluminium they say is aircraft grade. Right. Like,
0:39:03we got a new element. It's going to have an indicator of how, you know, because this is
0:39:11Apple's marketing race. He's like, I know you all know about the periodic table. I know you look up
0:39:16there and you see your aluminums and your titanium. Stainless steel, it's an alloy. It's not up there.
0:39:21But be that as it may, what makes our titanium different? Well, and then they do the thing where
0:39:28they're like, but it's not titanium. It's magic titanium. It's aerospace grade. It's impurities
0:39:34have been filtered out, or it's a unique alloy of titanium and molybdenum. And it makes it so that
0:39:41it reads your mind or whatever it is, you know, they're going to have, because even because Apple
0:39:46masters of branding, everything's got a brand name. Well, almost everything, but you know,
0:39:52the important stuff has a brand name. They can't just be satisfied with an element that's on the
0:39:59periodic table, a common element. They have to explain why it's amazing. So it's just watch
0:40:05grade. They use Apple watch great. Titanium on the iPhone. It's going to be, I'm going to tell you,
0:40:09it's like, this is the same titanium that they use in making the international space station
0:40:15or something. Right. It's going to be that it's going to be titanium from outer space.
0:40:19I don't know. We'll see, but they'll do something. Mark my words. They'll do something.
0:40:23If you employ a team of metal, which Apple have, they have their own metal.
0:40:27They do. Right. And like, they made their own gold for the Apple watch. Right.
0:40:32Oh yeah. Right. See again, Hey, you look at the, you look at that periodic table and you see a you
0:40:36and you're like gold. Okay. Whatever. It's like, no, we made great gold. We made the best gold.
0:40:44And now best titanium coming to you. Now, do you remember some time ago, we were talking about the
0:40:52buttons on the iPhone that they were maybe going to be going to solid state and be like the track
0:40:58pad or whatever, right? Where they don't actually physically move that got canned. Right. But the,
0:41:04there is something that has remained, which is the mute slash ring switcher, like the little
0:41:10switch that you've got on the phone is going to become a button and it will be action button,
0:41:16like maybe even called the action button. And this is a quote from Mark Gurman, Steve Moser at Mac
0:41:22rumors discovered code in iOS 17 that hints at the possible options for this button. It suggests
0:41:28you'll be able to choose among several possibilities. The standard mute switch mechanism,
0:41:32a focus mode, like do not disturb launching the camera, turning on the flashlight or opening
0:41:37features for accessibility or translating text. That sounds just like the action button on the
0:41:41Apple watch ultra, right? Of like the kinds of things you can do with it. Programmable button.
0:41:45And I'm here for it, right? Like that's, that's cool. There was all that debate about like,
0:41:50Oh, ring switching people who are the magic ring switch people who can tell in the pocket, whether
0:41:54it's switched one way or the other, which I can never remember. I spent Mike last week, I was
0:42:00trying to see if my iPhone was muted and I spent a long time steering a control center, wondering
0:42:07why there wasn't a mute item in control. So they're going to have to add it. Right. Right. Well,
0:42:11so, so I had that moment because this is how much I use my iPhone versus my iPad. And I just
0:42:15stared at it and I'm like, why isn't it there? Why isn't the little bell there? And then I,
0:42:18I had an, after a minute I was like, Oh, iPhone, there's a switch on the side. And then I did the
0:42:23switch and then, and then what ridiculous fishing or something started to make noise. And I was
0:42:27like, Oh, cause I hate that. I hate how some things honor that the honor, the switch and don't play
0:42:33anything unless you turn the switch off versus just honoring the volume setting bugs me. It's
0:42:37inconsistent between apps. Anyway. Um, I had that moment and I thought, well, it won't be like this
0:42:42soon, right? Pretty soon. That'll just be a button. And, uh, you can choose to have that button
0:42:47toggle mute on and off or have it be something else and just put it in control center. Cause
0:42:52as somebody who leaves the mute on all the time, I would really rather just have it on all the time
0:42:57in control center and use that button for something else. Yeah. I mean, that would be the same for me,
0:43:02right? Where like, actually if they did put it into software, then I'd be fine with it. Cause I
0:43:06could just leave it in software and I know it's off all the time. I do like the ring switches
0:43:11because it's easy for me to know it's always off. But if it's in software is realistically as simple
0:43:15as that. As long as they leave it always off. Right. I mean, my, my, my Apple watch is always
0:43:19off too. And I don't need a right. Like I don't need to switch for it. I just said, cause I don't
0:43:24want the volume controls to be met to be doing this. Like I don't want that. Like I don't want
0:43:30that. Right. Right. But if there's just a straight up mute, which there would be cause it's on the
0:43:34iPad, that's what it is. So for people who are like, if you really flip between, um,
0:43:41noise and not noise all the time, then you would apply this button. And yes, I know you wouldn't
0:43:47know the state, but like, I think it's better more broadly to have it be programmable. All I ask,
0:43:52let me run a shortcut. I know you can do this in the Apple watch too. So like, just let me run a
0:43:57shortcut from that and then I'll be happy. You know, that'd be awesome. Sounds, sounds great to
0:44:01me. You mentioned it earlier, but price creases, uh, increases price creases. They're folding the
0:44:07money. Uh, price increases are expected in some markets, maybe the U S as well. Uh, this is kind
0:44:13of expected mainly in the pro phones, but could be across the whole thing. Right. And if there's an
0:44:18ultra, right. Like that's a really great moment to increase the price of that phone even more.
0:44:25There is for the Apple watch and U S nine processor in the Apple watches, which would
0:44:32include the first significant processor bumps since the S six in 2020. So there's been processes
0:44:38every year, but they've been, you know, different configurations of the system on the chip as to
0:44:44what it can do. But in that time period, that hasn't really been any kind of speed bump to
0:44:49the Apple watch. The S nine would do that apparently. Yeah. I mean, that's great. It's good.
0:44:56I feel okay about my Apple watch, but I'm sure it could be, you know, I'm sure at a certain point,
0:45:03it won't be right. Right. We will reach that, like, uh, I guess it's snappier kind of moment
0:45:08with the Apple watch, but right now, like a faster Apple watch, especially since it hasn't really
0:45:11gotten a major bump in a while. I think that's good. Cause there's more that could be done on
0:45:16the Apple watch if it had more capabilities, right? Like that we're still at that point where it's,
0:45:20it's very limited cause it's in such a small space. And so there's more work to be done on
0:45:24the Apple watch front and a dark titanium option for the Apple watch. Awesome. Possibly. Right.
0:45:29He said, basically like he had heard about it earlier and it seems to still be in as a
0:45:35possibility, but he doesn't really know, but it would be weird to me to, to rev the, the,
0:45:40the model, uh, in a year and not offer like something like that. Cause really, I mean,
0:45:45I will be surprised as to what they would offer at all. Right. Like what is the reason to do an Apple
0:45:51watch ultra two a year after? Like what will, you know, like what are they going to tell you is in
0:45:56this one and like, and I feel like an S nine chip, like that's not really it, you know, it's like,
0:46:02what is the point of revving it, but being able to say such a success, you know, like we're
0:46:06doubling down and it also now comes in black or whatever. It's like, Oh, okay. But what I really
0:46:11want and what I hope they do is it actually comes in all of the colors. The phones come in. That's
0:46:17what I want. Oh, that's a nice idea. Right. Because they're going to, it's you re presume
0:46:23because we know because, well, boy, do we know that there's, you can add a titanium, right?
0:46:28That they'll probably have multiple options for the phones, you know, like four or five options
0:46:35for the phones. My hope would be that they would then offer this like a selection of those colors
0:46:40for the Apple watch ultra too. Sure. That'd be neat because I would like choices. I would like
0:46:46a gold one because that's who I am. Gold finger. Well, or wrist. This episode is brought to you
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0:49:28- So it is the summer of fun. - Summer of fun!
0:49:34- Which for you does mean the summer of writing. - True.
0:49:39- Because you're writing all your reviews. And as we move into review season, I would like to get a
0:49:43lay of the land for your writing setup right now. I'm going to talk about apps, but I also want to
0:49:50start this with like with two questions. One is which device do you currently do the bulk of your
0:49:57writing on, especially when it comes to reviews? - So I've been doing the bulk of my writing
0:50:02this summer on my Mac using the keyboard that you made for me.
0:50:08- Ah, great. - Which is the what? Keychron Q1?
0:50:12- Yes. I'm going to say yes to that. - I think so.
0:50:16- Yeah. - With the Kiwi switches and
0:50:20I got the severance keys. - Ah, yes, yes, yes, yes.
0:50:25- It's like a little blue keyboard. Summer, my beloved memories of summer for the last 20 years
0:50:34really are writing under the redwood tree in my backyard, sitting in a camp chair basically.
0:50:42And so what I'd really like to say is that I've been doing a lot of writing on the Magic keyboard
0:50:49on my iPad sitting out in the backyard, but it's been here in the Bay Area, it's been a cold summer.
0:50:58- Oh, okay. - And I've written out there like one day.
0:51:02So I'm not worried. August and September and October are usually our hottest months,
0:51:10and so probably I will be hot and miserable and outside writing at some point here,
0:51:16and that will make me happy because I'll be in the shade of the redwood tree and it'll be great.
0:51:19But for now I'm doing most of my work actually at my Mac and not anywhere else, so it's unusual for me.
0:51:24- But your ideal for writing this kind of stuff, like your Mac OS review or something,
0:51:30would be on your iPad instead? - Yeah, in the backyard, yeah, for sure.
0:51:35And in the winter I usually do a lot of writing at, I do writing at my desk, but I also do a lot
0:51:42of writing at the bar, in my kitchen. - In the kitchen, right? It's just like Jason goes down to the local
0:51:49- Well, I mean, I used to go to Starbucks and write my Mac world column there and all that,
0:51:55and I don't really do that anymore ever since the pandemic. But I have a little stand for my iPad
0:52:03that goes in and then I use a Bluetooth keyboard and a Magic trackpad and I will sit there on a bar
0:52:11stool or stand next to the bar, depending on how I'm feeling. And that's really great because it's
0:52:17a shift, it's a mental shift where I'm somewhere else doing something else and I'm sort of like,
0:52:22it sends a signal to my brain like, "The only reason you're here is writing, stop wasting time,
0:52:27- Yeah, yeah. - "Get the words out now." But I just wrote a 2000 word piece last week that is forthcoming,
0:52:34it's a freelance piece, and I wrote that sitting here at my desk. And when I do
0:52:41that, to get that signal to my brain that I need to switch gears, a lot of times what I'll do is
0:52:46I actually put my headphones in, plug directly into the headphone jack on the, well, there's an
0:52:52extension cord, but it's a headphone jack on my computer and I play music and I just, there's
0:52:58something about writing where I've got the headphones in and I can't hear anything else and
0:53:01I'm just focused. I've got the music playing and I'm writing. I'm usually listening to music on my
0:53:07AirPods when I'm at the bar top in my kitchen or if I'm outside in the backyard too, it's a
0:53:14cue for me to focus on that. Whereas when I'm just sort of doing other stuff, I usually just have the
0:53:19music on speakers and stuff in my office. So it's a different, I'm trying to give my brain cues of
0:53:25like, again, now is the time that you did all of these other things because it's time to write now.
0:53:32So if you don't write now, why did you do all those other things? And that is a way of getting
0:53:38my brain to like engage and be like, yeah, okay, now the words are going to come out.
0:53:42Music with or without lyrics?
0:53:45Ah, it's a classic. I think we've dealt with this in Snell Talk before. I love writing to music that
0:53:53I know by heart, which means it needs to be, there's a very specific category this is, which is
0:53:59it's music that I know incredibly well. It is pop and rock music with lyrics, but it's the stuff
0:54:06that I know by heart. So my brain is not tracking the lyrics and it's not in, it's not like riding
0:54:15along with the song and enjoying the ride. And there's a little corollary here. So, so I don't
0:54:20need to listen to instrumental. Sometimes I do listen to instrumental stuff or electronic stuff
0:54:24or like stuff that doesn't have words, but a lot of times the playlists that I use the most are ones
0:54:30that are just rock playlists. But here's a funny thing. If I don't use it for a while, I can't write
0:54:37to it. So it has to be like, if it's novel, like I was playing the other day, I was playing a
0:54:44playlist by a band I like, but I hadn't listened to it in a while. And I realized I couldn't use
0:54:51it to write because it's been so long since I listened to those songs that every time a song
0:54:56would come on and I'd be like, Oh, this song. And that is not what you want when you're writing.
0:55:00You don't want to be enjoying the songs. You want the songs as a pleasant kind of like
0:55:05driver of, you know, I'm listening to these, the songs are playing and I'm listening to them while
0:55:11I'm also focused. And I could do that. So every year, it used to be on Last.fm, because I was
0:55:20Scroblin' back in the day. I was Big Scrobblin' back in the day. And now it's just the Apple Music
0:55:28charts at the end of the year that they do. But there are certain artists that crop up there that
0:55:35it's like, why are you listening to this artist? And the answer is, Oh, yeah, that's one of my
0:55:40playlists for when I'm writing. So it's like, why did you listen to Underneath Days by Bob
0:55:46Mold 800 times last year? That's a song from 10 years ago. And the answer is, it's because the
0:55:52Bob Mold playlist is one of my writing playlists. And so that song comes up all the time and it
0:55:56gives me energy and I love it. And also I do it long enough that, you know, I've been using it
0:56:01long enough that I'm not really focused on it. It doesn't distract me from my writing.
0:56:07So obviously I'm assuming that nothing has changed with the app on your Mac and you're still using
0:56:12BB Edit. Still writing in BB Edit, yeah. What about iOS? So my workflow there hasn't changed
0:56:19very much. Although I think that if I spent more time on iOS, like later this summer, I will
0:56:26probably, I'm always looking around because my workflow right now is still Dropbox based.
0:56:32Essentially it's plain text in Dropbox. It's marked down in Dropbox. So I have a folder called
0:56:36Stories and I can have them in BB Edit on my Mac and I can have them in whatever text editor app
0:56:42I'm using on my iPad. I have been using OneWriter as my primary for a long time on the iPad and I
0:56:50still use it as my primary. It gets out of my way. It does what I want. I've even got it, you know,
0:56:55I've got some scripts hooked up to it and shortcuts so that I can post things directly to
0:56:59six colors from there. I'm always open to other things. I wrote an article about this a long time
0:57:06ago and I know we've talked about it. I want a markdown text editor that ideally has shortcuts
0:57:13for things like hyperlinks and stuff like that, but also I want to see all the code. There are a
0:57:19bunch of markdown editors that do things like you make a hyperlink and it hides the link. I hate
0:57:24that. I know why people like that. I hate it because what the link is matters to me. I'm like,
0:57:30"Which link is that on that part?" I'm like, "Oh, I have to go in. I have to use the cursor in
0:57:36because if I click on it, it opens it and I use the cursor and I can expand it and all that." I hate
0:57:39it. I just don't want that. I want to be able to see the code at all times. And then automation is
0:57:47nice for things like automatically posting it to the site. The thing I don't like about OneWriter
0:57:53is that it's JavaScript-based and what I really would like is something like Python where I could
0:57:57build macros that are in a language that I understand better than JavaScript. Unfortunately,
0:58:04that was editorial, right, which basically got abandoned before I learned Python. Now I
0:58:09learn Python. I'm like, "Oh, editorial would have been the answer there." But the truth is a lot of
0:58:14this stuff, if it's got hooks out to shortcuts, it doesn't matter because the shortcuts can do
0:58:17the automations for me. And the truth is I'm more... There's an app called Tio that I've used
0:58:23a bit that is very clever. It's got its own automation system that's like shortcuts except
0:58:27inside Tio. Also interesting. And I'm open to others, but right now that works the best because
0:58:38there's no BBEdit for iOS, right? I need something that will round trip with Dropbox. And there are
0:58:46some apps that are like, "It's great. We have our own little iCloud folder and I don't want that."
0:58:52And it's extremely unlikely that some iOS app is going to do a Mac version and make me drop BBEdit.
0:58:57That just seems very unlikely. So I end up really needing it to just be a very nice markdown text
0:59:03editor that can look in a Dropbox folder or in the long run, maybe an iCloud Drive folder. Although
0:59:09my experience is that the iCloud Drive updating is still more problematic than the
0:59:18Dropbox updating. But what I want to be able to do is write my Mac world column, close my iPad,
0:59:26walk into my office, open the column in BBEdit, do a couple of things to it, and then put it in
0:59:31their system. And when I've tried that with iCloud Drive, I will sometimes come in and I'll look at
0:59:37the file and it just hasn't updated. And then eventually it updates and that's unacceptable.
0:59:42Dropbox is getting more and more like that these days for me at least.
0:59:48Hasn't happened to me. I've still got it that it's straight up that those things are happening
0:59:54and they're working really well. Have you upgraded to the version that is using the file provider
0:59:58API? I've been using the file provider API for a long time now, since it was the first beta of it.
1:00:04I mean, I think my problem tends to be that I'm dealing with larger files than a text file,
1:00:08right? Could be. I'm finding issues with audio files quite a lot where I'm trying to download
1:00:14something and it's just stuck. Yes, well, it's a lot easier when it's just a little tiny text file.
1:00:21Yeah, I've found recently sometimes it's quicker for me to go to the web and download the thing
1:00:27that I want, which is just very annoying. That's unacceptable. That's unacceptable for any of these
1:00:31services to do it that way. Are there any apps or tools that you tried recently that you've rejected?
1:00:39I think you tried Obsidian, right? I did try Obsidian. Obsidian is overkill for me.
1:00:49Outliners and note-taking apps. Anything that you build up like a little packet of information
1:01:01and it's all cross-linked and stuff. It's just not how I write. Yeah, I was going to ask where
1:01:08do your notes and stuff, like if you're writing a story and you have some notes, where do they go?
1:01:11You know that one of the things about me is I try to be very skeptical of adding overhead to what I
1:01:21do because it's overhead. It's more work and my question is always going to be if I do this extra
1:01:32work, does it save me time or benefit me in some other way? Every time I've tried something like
1:01:43Obsidian or you know and there are other kind of note-taking apps or use Drafts and Bear and
1:01:50all sorts of other things, what I end up feeling is like I just don't work in a way where I need
1:01:58to have all of my stuff in different places all interlinked and I'm going to use that as the
1:02:03basis. I just don't do that. Honestly, I do some stuff like if I'm doing an Apple briefing or
1:02:10something like that, I take notes about that in notes, Apple Notes, and I look back on it later.
1:02:18But when I'm writing, I'm writing in a text file and my notes are at the bottom.
1:02:26And usually what I will do is I will outline my story if it's a lengthy story like a review
1:02:31and the way I'll outline my story is I will put what the sections are in the text file
1:02:37and then I'll take my notes about those sections and put them in the sections.
1:02:45And then I will usually write, it doesn't always happen if I'm really getting stuck or if there's
1:02:50something that I'm not ready to deal with yet, I'll change it. But usually I will write top to
1:02:55bottom. I will literally, I'll write an intro and I will then go to the next section and I will look
1:03:02at the notes that are in there and I will write the next section. And as I write, I gobble up the
1:03:07little notes. They just go away. Like Pac-Man. I'm like, and the notes go away because the
1:03:14paragraphs are there now. I don't need the notes anymore. And if there's a lot of stuff in the
1:03:19notes that's like I might want to refer to, I'll also have the notes saved as a different text file
1:03:23that I can go get if I need to. But for the most part, that's how I do it. And so I'll sit down
1:03:28and I'll write a story about next version of macOS, maybe the beta, or maybe it'll be my final review
1:03:34and I'll put down the structure and I'll put down what I'm thinking and then I will kind of work
1:03:39from there. So I just don't, I honestly just don't understand how somebody like our friend Federico
1:03:47works. I don't, I just don't understand it. And I'm in awe of it, honestly, but I don't understand
1:03:57it where he does so much pre-work where he's taking notes and using stuff and building up
1:04:07like a big note library. And maybe this is just that I, I mean, I just, I was bad at this in
1:04:16college even. I didn't, I wasn't good at taking notes in college. I would take some, but not a lot
1:04:21of them. And it's still like this today that I'm using the beta and I'm experiencing it. And then
1:04:29I get to the end and I'm, I make a little outline in my text file and say, here are the things I
1:04:34want to talk about that I noticed this year. And that's it. I don't, I'm not like extracting
1:04:40notes that I took back in June when I used a particular feature and then bringing them in.
1:04:45I just am not. And part of that is that I'm also not writing a 25,000 word review, right? I'm
1:04:51only going to write 5,000. Yeah, but it probably is right. That I, I want it at a very particular
1:04:58level and I don't want to go on for 10 or 15 or 20,000 words. I just don't want to do that. That's
1:05:05not my goal. But anyway, I, my exception to this is back like a decade ago now. I wrote a little
1:05:16more than a decade ago. I did National Novel Writing Month and I ended up writing a few
1:05:22novels and I used Scrivener for those. And that's a case where there's so much you have to keep
1:05:30track of as you're writing a novel in terms of your plan and who your characters are and what
1:05:36has happened that using Scrivener with its organizational features was very helpful to
1:05:44that process. That was a, that was a process that was so huge that I had to, but I've tried to use
1:05:50Scrivener for my big OS reviews and stuff. And honestly, it was, it felt kind of unnecessary.
1:05:57It was overkill for that part of it. So, I mean, there is a place like Dan Morin with his multi-book
1:06:04sci-fi novel series, like he had, he built a Wiki, which I think is now in Obsidian.
1:06:09Because that's what it is. That's what these things are now, right? They're just Wikis,
1:06:13really. They're basically Wikis. And he needs that because he doesn't remember this fact about
1:06:19his universe that he wrote, you know, as an aside in book two, but like he needs to remain consistent
1:06:25in book five about what he said in book two. And so being able to look that up, being able to search
1:06:30it is very helpful to him. So there are lots of ways that, and again, like I said, I'm kind of
1:06:37in awe of Federico and how he does it. And it works for him and everybody's brains work differently.
1:06:42And so anyway, that's where I am right now. - It's similar to Grey too, like the way that he
1:06:48writes his scripts. Like I've seen some of the, like his Obsidian vault and it's like, he's
1:06:53referring to pieces of information he's collected so he can make sure that like he's factually
1:07:00accurate, you know, like so hundreds and hundreds of notes full of pieces of information go into
1:07:05creating this one script that goes into a video. - I get it. And the sense that I have is that
1:07:12the stuff I write is not the stuff that is, you know, I spent months deeply researching a topic
1:07:21and I have all of these details. And if I did that, I would have to do that, right? I would
1:07:25absolutely have to do that. But most of the stuff I write, if not all of the stuff I write is not
1:07:31that and can be contained in notes and a text file and in my brain. And if I was trying something
1:07:40like that, it would be different. That said, I think also I gravitate toward doing the level that
1:07:45I'm on because it is how I prefer to work. I think that is part of it, is it's self-selecting.
1:07:52I've always been the kind of person who thinks about doing months of research and thinking,
1:08:02yeah, I'm not going to do that. It's just like, I don't want to do that. I would be the kind of
1:08:07person who like, like taking them back to college, it's like, oh, we're studying and I'm going to go
1:08:13and study for five hours. We're going to study for this test. And I would like look over my notes and
1:08:18after like half an hour, I'd be like, I don't even know what I'm doing here. And I'd be done.
1:08:22Cause it's just not, I just couldn't do it. I just, it's just not, I did it. I took the notes.
1:08:28I listened. I wrote the papers. I reviewed the material and I'm done. Whereas other people I
1:08:33knew would be like, oh, study session. I did eight hours of studying for the final. And I've
1:08:39never understood that. It's just not how my brain works. So I think that an aspect of that is the
1:08:44self-selecting. Could I do what Gray does in terms of that level of research and that level of
1:08:51not making your content, but just spending time investigating all of the back story and all of the
1:09:00references so that after a long time, you would get to the point that you would make your thing.
1:09:06I don't think I'm built that way. I don't think I could work that way. I mean, I could, I could do
1:09:10it, but it would be very painful for me to do it because my brain doesn't work like that.
1:09:13If you enjoy this show and would like more of this show, you should subscribe to upgrade plus
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1:10:47you do. All right, let's finish out today's show with some ask upgrade questions.
1:10:55First one comes from Ryan who says, have you played any of the games that are currently
1:11:01featured in the Playdate catalog? Oh, I have, but I'm not even sure I remember what they are. I have
1:11:08played some. My Playdate update is the same as it was the last time we did this, which is
1:11:12I love it. Every time I play it, I have a great joy. I am a person who, who has a great difficulty
1:11:18finding time to just sit down and play a game on the Playdate, especially since because of
1:11:25lighting conditions, you really need to be in a well-lit place. And so, yeah, so I, I,
1:11:30I still play Hypermeteor all the time. That's, that's the one I keep coming back to is just the
1:11:37little Asteroids game. I love it so much, but I have downloaded some of the stuff in the catalog.
1:11:41I can't remember it. I played it a little bit, but mostly for me, I'm still like just hypermeteor
1:11:49is the best. I love it. So that's what I play most of the time, but I did, but I bring it with me.
1:11:53I live in Hope, Mike. That's the funny thing about me in the, in the Playdate is every time I go on a
1:11:57trip, I charge the Playdate and I bring it with me and I think, oh, maybe I'll play it on the plane
1:12:00or I'll play it. We go go to the lake in Wisconsin. Maybe I'll play it there. You know, go to the
1:12:04mountains in Colorado. Maybe I'll play it there. And I usually don't, but I, I live in Hope because
1:12:09I do love the little thing and I enjoy playing the games on it, but the games and me and finding the
1:12:15time to play games. Like I've been meaning to play PlayStation Spider-Man for ages and I still
1:12:19haven't played it because Spider-Man 2 is coming soon. I know, I know. And it's just, it's very,
1:12:25I don't, I got a lot going on. And what I found is that I just don't prioritize every time I'm playing
1:12:31a game. I think, why am I not doing something? I bet so many other things I could be doing and
1:12:34it's very difficult. So what about you? You have, uh, any, any new Playdate catalog games now you can
1:12:39buy? Cause now you can buy games and download them straight to the Playdate. That's what the
1:12:43catalog is. I think the thing that I wanted to mention here is my favorite Playdate game is a
1:12:48game called Bloom. I spoke about this when the Playdate came out and they were having the ability
1:12:54for you to buy games on itch.io and Bloom was one of those games. And it is essentially like a kind
1:13:00of a, it's a very story driven game where you are managing a flower shop and interacting with people,
1:13:06but it's much more about the story that you're living through with the text messages that you're
1:13:13seeing. There is a day/night cycle. It's really a very fascinating, very interestingly built game
1:13:19that kind of keeps you hooked. And it's one of these games that I feel like it just gives you
1:13:23a little bit every day. Like it is in real time, like day by day, like you have to play, you know,
1:13:29multiple days to get the full story. It is now in the Playdate catalog and it has more content.
1:13:35I have yet to play the additional content cause there's like a, it's possible to do, but I have
1:13:40to do kind of like a save transfer thing by plugging in my Playdate to my computer and like,
1:13:44you can move the files over from one to the other in, you know, whatever, it doesn't matter. But I
1:13:50really, really recommend Bloom. Like it's actually, you know, I've, I've had multiple people say to me,
1:13:54I just got a Playdate, what games do you like? As in like, and I think they're meaning like,
1:13:58which from the catalog, but I say go get Bloom. It's so much worth the money. It was one of my
1:14:03favorite games in the year that I played it. I just absolutely adored it. It was such a beautiful
1:14:08experience. And I'm also currently playing a few different games and I'll play eight games. So I
1:14:14just started playing a game called Dave the Diver, which is just so good. It is a combination between
1:14:21a, like you have to go fishing, but like you're diving fishing to catch fish. And that's one part
1:14:30of the game. The other part of the game is a sushi restaurant management sim. It is such a weird game.
1:14:37It's like half fishing game, half restaurant management game. And it's really funny and it's
1:14:42weird. And there's lots of mini games and there's intrigue. It like, it, what it reminds me of the
1:14:48most is something like a Stardew Valley. Like if you enjoy Stardew Valley, you are going to love
1:14:55Dave the Diver. It has that same idea of like, just one more day, just one more day kind of vibe
1:15:01to it. So if you like those kinds of games, you should check out Dave the Diver. I think Dave
1:15:07the Diver, this is not like a very original thought, but I believe it too. It's going to be a,
1:15:12it's going to be a, like a kind of a dark horse on game of the year lists. It's not going to win
1:15:19them, but it's going to appear. And which is interesting for a game of its type, especially
1:15:24in a game like this, where if you are a gamer, this is 2023 is potentially going to be the
1:15:31greatest game in video, greatest year in video game history for just like the pure quality of
1:15:36the video games that have been released from like Legend of Zelda, Final Fantasy, Diablo. We've got
1:15:42Starfield coming this year, Spider-Man coming this year and many, many, many, the list goes
1:15:47literally on and on for high quality games this year. Armored Core, Lies of P, like so much stuff.
1:15:53Generally there's a game, Jason, I think you'll get a kick out of this. It's called Lies of P
1:15:58is the name of the game, like the letter P. And it is a very brutal, are you familiar with Dark Souls
1:16:04or Bloodborne? Have you ever heard of these games before? Yeah. Or Elden Ring, right? Right. These
1:16:10are games where they're incredibly hard and the combat is really hard. And like, and it's, it's,
1:16:16it's kind of created a genre of game called Souls-like. So it's like dark and dingy and very
1:16:23tough combat. Lies of P is based on Pinocchio in this style. It is one of the weirdest, like
1:16:30mashups of, of things that I've come up with that I've ever come across, but yeah, it's the Pinocchio
1:16:36intellectual property because I believe it's in the public domain now. And, uh, they've made a,
1:16:41it's a very, very tough game called Lies of P coming out and it's based on Pinocchio. There's
1:16:46a Jiminy Cricket in there and everything. Very strange, but people seem excited about it. It's
1:16:51not a game for me, but people seem excited about it. Mustafa says, seeing the secrecy requirements
1:16:57by Apple for vision pro developers, like we spoke about last time, right? We would like,
1:17:01because the developer kits came out and there was all of the texts that I read out about kind of
1:17:06like what you're supposed to do with your developer kit. Mustafa asks, what is it that prevents a
1:17:11developer from revealing details to the press under the condition of anonymity? How could Apple
1:17:16find out if their identity, if it's hidden by the press outlets? Well, this is, this is the question
1:17:22with any secret, like how does Apple, um, do this for when people leak inside Apple, right? It's the
1:17:29same, it's the same question. So I think the answer is if Apple wants to try to find who they are,
1:17:36Apple could do stuff like reveal different things to different people and see if the things get out,
1:17:43if they really want to do that. I think the truth is that what will happen here is Apple is trying
1:17:48to make developers not do that by saying, please don't do that. Well, way more than please don't
1:17:56do that. Right? They're like, they make you sign a bunch of documents to say you want to do it.
1:18:02Yeah. But in the end, what they're, what they're saying is don't do it. And they're sending that
1:18:06message. Will somebody do it? Yeah. Almost certainly somebody will do it. Will they get
1:18:10caught? Probably not. Will it be revealed by the press? Yes. Like all those things will,
1:18:16will probably happen. But what they want to do is provide enough fear, uh, for people who might be
1:18:22tempted so that they're like, Oh no, I give, I get in real trouble with Apple if I did this.
1:18:26And if Apple finds out, then you're persona non grata at Apple, and that's going to be very bad
1:18:32for you and your career as a developer. So lots of reasons not to, but people do still leak. Like,
1:18:37why do people leak things? Why do people do that? We've talked about that here a bunch. There's a
1:18:43lot of like reasons of like, I know a secret, but it's not good unless I can let it out or seeing it
1:18:49in the press and getting an ego boost because you know, that was you. Um, lots of reasons why that
1:18:55happens, but you're taking a real risk and all Apple can really do is make it clear that, um,
1:19:00if they figure out that it's you, you're going to be in trouble and try to intimidate people into
1:19:04it, into the people who need to be intimidated. I would say most of these people are honorable,
1:19:08but there are people who are going to be tempted and Apple wants to make it less tempting for them.
1:19:14But in the end, what prevents them is obscuring it enough that they think that they won't be caught.
1:19:21Um, cause Apple knows who it's shown things to right. Like, and when and what, and if it,
1:19:28you know, if it wants to, I'm sure that there are people at Apple who will try to figure it out. If
1:19:32stuff leaks, like who could that possibly be? And it's people's job, right? So I'll say like,
1:19:38you know, I always want to know this information. If people give this information out and you know,
1:19:44it gets written up, if there's anything interesting, we'll cover it on the show.
1:19:47You know, it's kind of what we do. I would just say though, like if you are a developer who gets
1:19:51a developer kit, don't, it's not worth it. Like, yeah, don't, it is more worth it to you to keep
1:19:58your relationship with Apple the way that you want it to be. This is, I'm assuming your livelihood,
1:20:04right? Or like at least part of that, or you want it to be, uh, don't just keep it to yourself.
1:20:08It's not worth it. There is probably not going to be anything in this device that is worthy of
1:20:16the information to people. Like we've experienced it. We see it in the simulator. Like I just think
1:20:23it's not worth the risk to you and your business or the people you work for to divulge this
1:20:30information. I just, I think for this device specifically, it isn't, it isn't worth it, but
1:20:36you do you. Yeah. Also, um, I would say it is,
1:20:44I would, I think that Apple should be encouraged to do stuff like let developers have access and
1:20:53get developer kits out to developers. Um, the more things happen that Apple hates about it,
1:21:02the more ammunition there is for people on the inside to say, oh, you see, we should never have
1:21:06done this. We should have never let the hardware out the door. We should never have trusted them.
1:21:10And, um, that's not, that's not good for anybody, I think. But I do, I mean, I think I said this
1:21:16in Connected. I do think that Apple should allow some developers to talk about their experiences
1:21:22of using the developer kit freely. Um, and you know, maybe that they work out some arrangements
1:21:27with some people to do that because I think that there is a like advocacy piece that could be very
1:21:33important for them. Remember that, um, the stuff like David Smith posting about his sort of rabbit
1:21:41hole he went down with Vision OS, that stuff used to be not allowed. Yes. It used to be able to not
1:21:47talk about it at all. It was 100% NDA'd, 100%. All of Xcode, right? Like all of the SDK, I should say,
1:21:55to use it, you had to sign a blanket NDA, which is hilarious to think back in time to what that,
1:22:01you know, like the, to all of the developer tools were under NDA. Yeah. Yeah. And all the betas.
1:22:07Yep. And even for, for me as a member of the press, right, it was like, well, you would get
1:22:11it, but you can't write about it. And then, and that changed over time in part because people did
1:22:17write about it anyway. But I think you're, you make a good point. Even when I started podcasting,
1:22:22I think that was the case. Like that I would install the betas, but I had to talk about
1:22:27things I'd found online. I couldn't talk about my, it was very strange. Yeah. So Apple benefits from
1:22:34David Smith writing about these issues and talking about what he learned. He's essentially creating
1:22:38information for all the other potential Vision Pro developers to read it and think about it and
1:22:44learn what he learned from him. And it's all to the benefit of Apple building this platform and
1:22:51having the developers get on this platform. So what you don't want is Apple saying, nobody talk
1:22:56about anything, right? You don't want that. And maybe when they're in these things, they'll say,
1:23:01look, you can talk about what you learned here. Don't talk about your experience using the
1:23:06hardware, right? I mean, they could set some ground rules and I think they should because
1:23:11it benefits them. Like the secrecy, look, what they're trying to prevent is the first sort of
1:23:17like, I got to use a developer kit and here's what the secret of the Vision Pro is going to be.
1:23:24Cause I use Vision Pro hardware, which is a little bit silly cause it's going to be, Apple knows that.
1:23:28And so Apple is going to make the developer kits limited and they're not going to have the
1:23:33experience that we had at WWDC, right? They're not. So there are other tactics that Apple can
1:23:39use to prevent stories that they don't want, but this is a story that they want, right? They want
1:23:46developers to help other developers with their insight into what's going on. They actually want
1:23:55to kind of create that space. So I hope that they will open at least a little bit of space for
1:24:00developers to talk about this stuff. - Yeah, because you're right. Like it's not going to be
1:24:04the same experience. The best, the experience has already been spoken about. Like if we hadn't
1:24:11gotten the chance or the other members of the media hadn't gotten the chance to use this thing,
1:24:16then there would be more of, I think, an interest, a public interest for developers to talk about
1:24:21their experience. - Which I think is, it's part of the strategy that they came up with for this thing.
1:24:25But, and that's why I'm hopeful that this is going to be more open than we think it's going to be.
1:24:32Because I think, personally, that it's more harmful to Apple and to the Vision Pro platform going
1:24:41forward, Vision OS going forward, to create a culture of fear about talking about it
1:24:48than any story that could be written about the developer kit or about these developer sessions,
1:24:58right? And I get that there's a privacy angle here, which is Apple doesn't want people writing
1:25:01about the sessions and all that. And that's fine. But in a larger sense about imparting information,
1:25:08you know, Apple benefits from all the developers talking about this stuff. It really does. And I
1:25:14can't conceive of something leaking that would be more damaging because it's going to be about a beta
1:25:24with limited, it's just not going to be that interesting. And it's so far before this thing
1:25:27ships. They're more, they're going to benefit more from an open policy, is what I'm saying,
1:25:32than from a closed policy here. I don't think that press reports about this are going to hurt them,
1:25:39and developers talking to other developers about what they've learned will help them in the long
1:25:43run. Yeah, I hope that we have, you know, a different experience here in the next
1:25:49couple of months than the way that it would appear to be based on the documentation that has been
1:25:57shared with developers, right? That like, what we will see over the next weeks or months might
1:26:05include more freely speaking about experiences. But at first, it's everyone hush hush. Right. And
1:26:14there is danger, right? There is danger that somebody's going to say, "I tried it and it
1:26:18doesn't live up to it. The simulator is good, but the actual hardware is bad." And everybody will be
1:26:25like, "Well, yeah, it's not shipping and it's beta and whatever, but they can create some clouds."
1:26:29Again, it's so far off. I get it. But, you know, or as our friend James Thompson says,
1:26:36at some point when somebody gets a developer kit, they're going to be able to use it all day and say,
1:26:42"I tried to use a Vision Pro all day and it hurt my head and it made me very sad." And that's going
1:26:47to be bad. Although again, Apple will say, "Well, but the straps aren't final and yada, yada, yada,
1:26:52fitting." And like, they're going to be able to massage all of that too. I just think in the long
1:26:56run, if you play that defensive game, first off, people are going to say what they're going to say
1:27:01regardless. Like you can't really control it. And what you run is for your developers who do care
1:27:07and are not going to the press to be able to express things that help the rest of the
1:27:11developer community because it lifts the platform, which is the goal. That's Apple's goal.
1:27:18We'll see. I mean, we'll see if anything changes. I think the developers' lab things are starting
1:27:24now. I think they've started as of today, I think.
1:27:29And if you've had an experience with it, send it to up... No, don't. We said don't send it to
1:27:34upgradefeedback.com. We don't want it. We want you to follow your NDA and learn about this OS.
1:27:40Yep. You can send us anonymous stuff, but we're not going to use it.
1:27:44Send us cryptic anonymous stuff that makes no sense. And we thank you.
1:27:49You can always send that stuff over upgradefeedback.com. Jason, I don't know if you
1:27:53call you, but I thought it was very funny to hear on ATP the discussion of our anonymous feedback
1:27:58sent in to us about the quote. I haven't heard that yet, but that's exciting.
1:28:02They talk about that, which is very funny to me. Anonymous informants.
1:28:05The anonymous informants are out there and they send in their feedback at upgradefeedback.com,
1:28:10just like you can. You can also send in your questions and your follow up there for us to
1:28:14discuss on a future episode. You can check out Jason's work, which you've heard all about how
1:28:19it's written today over at sixcolors.com. And you can hear his podcasts over at theincorporated.com
1:28:24and here on Relay FM. You can listen to my shows here on Relay FM and check out my work over at
1:28:29cortexbrand.com. We're on Mastodon and Threads. Jason is at JSNEL, J-S-N-E-L-L-L. I am at I-Mike,
1:28:38I-M-Y-K-E. And you can also find the show on Mastodon as @upgrade on relayfm.social.
1:28:44You can see video clips of the show there and TikTok and Instagram where we are @upgraderelay.
1:28:50Thank you to our members who support us with Upgrade Plus and thank you to our sponsor of
1:28:55this episode, Tax Expander. But most of all, thank you for listening. We'll be back next time. Until
1:29:00then, say goodbye to JSNEL. I'm always angry. That's my secret.
1:29:17[ Silence ]