The Talk Show

383: ‘A Photocopy of a Fax’, With Jason Snell


00:00:00   I guess we should just knock out the sad news right at the beginning, Jason, and do the obituaries.

00:00:05   Yeah, let's do it. Let's put them up top. That's how I like it.

00:00:13   We got John Warnock, co-founder of Adobe. He died about a week ago. The Times had a good

00:00:20   obituary. I was kind of taken aback. Adobe did not do the sort of "our founder died, let's devote our

00:00:29   homepage to an obituary." I mean, the canonical example would be what Apple did when Steve Jobs

00:00:35   died. Adobe just sort of had a statement, but they didn't really market on their website.

00:00:43   They're too busy trying to sell you on doing marketing things with your

00:00:49   website or whatever they do now.

00:00:51   It still is the Adobe I love, but there's also the new Adobe that does stuff that I don't

00:00:58   think I want to know about. The ad tech Adobe.

00:01:01   Yeah, when I was at IDG, we used Omniture for a while, which is part of Adobe. It's

00:01:07   like ad tech and analysis and stats and marketing tools and all of that, which I understand they

00:01:11   got a lot of people who are in the advertising business and in the marketing business.

00:01:17   It's one of those ways, like all this talk, I'm sure we're going to talk about

00:01:22   businesses Apple is in that you would never have bet they would have been in.

00:01:27   And are there going to be other weird businesses that they are going to go in that we will be

00:01:31   shocked by today? But Adobe's like that, right? Where they're like, they still do Photoshop.

00:01:37   They still do all of the creative apps. They're still building new apps. They still have teams

00:01:43   of scientists and mathematicians working on wild AI image recognition features and all

00:01:50   of that stuff. But they also have now built this whole side business.

00:01:55   And, or, or maybe it's the main business. I actually don't know the size of it, but it's like,

00:01:59   yeah, marketing tools for big companies. Yeah. I don't know. But, but Warnock,

00:02:02   he wrote illustrator and Warnock and Geschke, the two founders Geschke passed away a couple

00:02:06   of years ago, just. Pivotal knowledgeable computer people who also decided that they were going to

00:02:13   just take that tech and build their own business. And PostScript obviously is the, the, the biggest

00:02:19   intersection with, with Apple where Steve Jobs saw that and was like, Oh my God. And they made

00:02:25   the laser writer, essentially it's a collaboration between Apple and Adobe and the laser writer itself

00:02:30   changed the course of the publishing industry at the very least and probably the computer industry

00:02:37   at the same time. And it's just sometimes at this point in our careers, it's like,

00:02:44   we've been doing this long enough yet. We still have a long way ahead of us knock on wood,

00:02:50   hopefully, but I'm blown away. And I I'll just say it, we'll get to it later, but talking about

00:02:56   the iPad as a person, it can't be your main computer, the never ending topic. And it's like,

00:03:02   in some ways it feels like it's moving so slow and Steven trout and Smith pointed out, I added it to

00:03:10   the show notes, a 2013 article 10 years ago, I wrote an article that was pretty much covering

00:03:16   the exact same stuff that you and I were writing about this week, 10 years. And it's like, no,

00:03:22   I know that the iPad has gotten better to the last 10 years, a lot of ways, but not

00:03:27   crazy fast. Whereas desktop publishing, the Macintosh didn't even exist until 1984.

00:03:35   And the laser writer comes out in 1985 illustrator. I looked it up was the 87

00:03:42   by like 1988, the publishing industry had largely moved to the Macintosh and digital publishing,

00:03:51   like in four years, that'll an industry that you could arguably date back to Gutenberg

00:03:59   had entirely switched to doing it on computers because it was so much better.

00:04:06   And it happened that happened so fast, but because I was a kid at the time,

00:04:10   I thought that was just totally normal. Right now it was a, there was a lot, I would say

00:04:14   there's a lot of pent up, pent up inspiration going on there, right? Where it was like,

00:04:18   we just need a computer that can do this. We just need something that can do this.

00:04:22   And then all of a sudden there was this explosion and it was like, did the Mac,

00:04:26   like everybody had its precursor, but like the Mac leading to that point and then having

00:04:30   Warnock and Geschke at Adobe and saying, we can do postscript. And you put those together with the

00:04:36   hardware, the laser writer, and you put it together with page maker and then later QuarkXPress, you put

00:04:41   it together with Photoshop and illustrator. And it, that it just kept that ball just kept rolling

00:04:48   for a very long time. And by the time, yeah, five years had passed, the whole industry had already

00:04:54   been transformed and yeah, just like that. I wrote in my little brief sort of, I don't know,

00:05:03   call it a bit, whatever you want to call it when I, you know, just add a couple of thoughts when

00:05:07   somebody dies or something about the way that they did not settle. And to me, it's exactly,

00:05:13   I really do think it's why Adobe and Apple continue to have, I think a pretty, pretty

00:05:19   friendly corporate relationship and certainly on and off over the years, they obviously got

00:05:24   along with Steve Jobs. The laser writer, as you just alluded to, was a total collaboration.

00:05:29   Apple sold it and it was an Apple hardware product that connected to Apple's computers,

00:05:33   but entirely based on postscript technology that was Adobe's. Totally a joint collaboration. And

00:05:41   in those eighties years, if you were doing desktop publishing on a Macintosh, effectively part of your

00:05:50   system software was from Adobe. Adobe Type Manager was effectively, in those days,

00:05:58   extend all extensions ran. No, there was no kernel really, but so they effectively all ran in kernel

00:06:04   space and infamously any kind of conflict or bug in a third-party extension could just freeze up,

00:06:10   collapse your entire system or whatever. But if you were there at the time, nobody even called it

00:06:15   Adobe Type Manager. It was ATM. And the extension was always spelled tilde ATM because unlike now,

00:06:26   where a tilde sorts to the top A to Z alphabetically, and for some reason in Mac Roman

00:06:32   text encoding in classic Mac OS, tilde sorted to the bottom. And you always wanted ATM to load last.

00:06:40   So whatever other shenanigans your extensions were doing, ATM patched the traps last.

00:06:46   But ATM was amazing because it rendered these outline fonts on your screen

00:06:54   and they looked like the fonts, but they weren't bitmap fonts drawn pixel for pixel.

00:06:59   You really did get somebody, some reader who thanked me for my post, but couldn't believe

00:07:06   I didn't mention the term WYSIWYG, which at the time was whether we were writing about it

00:07:12   professionally or before that, just talking about the Mac, you couldn't go two paragraphs without

00:07:18   talking WYSIWYG. What you see is what you get because it was transformative. The idea that you

00:07:23   actually could see on screen what you would get when you printed seems so obvious. But up until

00:07:32   that point, it was nothing like that. People don't understand the idea that it used to be,

00:07:37   you're writing your college term paper, let's say, because this is a true story about me,

00:07:42   in Microsoft Word. It's a little short. You wrote it in 12 point, but you need to pump it up a

00:07:47   little bit and you put it in 13 point. It'll print on a laser writer and look great. But on your

00:07:55   screen, it looked like crap because the bitmap font that was displaying on your pixel-y screen

00:08:02   only came in certain type faces. They were outlined or shadowed in the fonts menu as well.

00:08:09   You knew which ones were the good ones that you could use, but when you printed it,

00:08:13   it would print fine. ATM was that moment where Adobe was basically patching macOS to say,

00:08:19   "If we've got an outline, we can make it look okay on your screen. It'll be fine."

00:08:25   Before that, there was as different as doing any sort of typography, even just rudimentary

00:08:35   word processing for a school paper where you were just happy to use Helvetica or Times New Roman.

00:08:41   You weren't fussy about typefaces. You're picking one of the 12 fonts that came with the computer,

00:08:47   which felt like a plethora of fonts compared to what we had before.

00:08:52   So, where before it was, well, you had a typewriter or a "word processor" that was really just a

00:09:03   typewriter with a couple of lines of memory, and you got 12 point courier and you liked it.

00:09:08   That was it. But there was this odd similarity to setting hot metal type, where

00:09:17   in hot metal type, if you're setting with little tiny pieces of type, obviously, whatever size that

00:09:24   is, is the size you're going to get when it strikes the paper. Our bitmap fonts were like that.

00:09:30   It was like we'd have nine pixel, we'd call them points, but the points were pixels. Nine, ten,

00:09:37   twelve, eighteen, twenty-four, forty-eight, seventy-two. If you didn't like one of those,

00:09:45   it's a tough one. You could set it to the others, but they looked terrible because they were just a

00:09:50   mathematical expansion of it. They weren't based on the shapes, which were in the vectors, which

00:09:59   was what PolkScript was all about, was creating a resolution independent vector, and no font hinted

00:10:06   every point size. It also means that you couldn't zoom effectively because that's cheating. If you

00:10:13   zoom in on a document that's got a 12 point font, it's not 12 point on your screen anymore.

00:10:18   I remember one of my first encounters when I really fell for the Mac was at my college

00:10:25   newspaper and we had PageMaker. There's that moment where you zoom in and it redraws the

00:10:31   letters and you're like, "Oh my god, they're still clear." If you zoom out far enough,

00:10:38   it just all turns into a gray square because it's like, "Nope, forget it. I'm not going to try."

00:10:43   Then Jobs, because Jobs was so savvy, when he went to Next, one of the first things they did was

00:10:50   they built their Next Step operating system on Display PostScript, which was just, "We're going

00:10:55   to use PostScript as our display layer." That ended up coming back to macOS in OS X with quartz.

00:11:06   PostScript ended up inspiring Next and then wrapping back around and being a key part of

00:11:11   the concept of how OS X... Trust me, I don't know if you ever used a Next Step computer, but

00:11:18   the processors at the time really struggled to try and render PostScript on the screen.

00:11:23   I got the idea. The idea is, "Yeah, we should probably just use these fundamental resolution

00:11:29   independent outlines to draw everything on the screen." By the time we got into the OS X era,

00:11:34   you could do all that stuff and it looked good.

00:11:36   Tom: Yeah, I was infinitely curious about the Next computers, but Drexel had, as far as I knew,

00:11:43   one. There was one that I knew of in the computer lab, and I got to, I don't know, kick the tires

00:11:49   on it. I mean, pretty much spent about as much time as I would have if there were retail stores

00:11:55   where you could have... But I could see...

00:11:57   Ben: Yeah, mine was University Bookstore had one, and I spent a good hour on the stupid

00:12:04   display unit at the University Bookstore because it's the only way I was ever going to touch one.

00:12:08   Tom; Yeah, it was vaguely reminiscent of the early versions of macOS X in that the screen was slow to

00:12:14   refresh because you could see what it was doing, and you could see that it was elegant in doing it

00:12:21   correctly in some sort of abstract notion of, "Oh, this is the way to draw everything. Do it all

00:12:26   with PostScript right on the screen, and everything that could be an outline is an outline or a vector

00:12:32   graphic or something like that, and everything that could be scalable is scalable." But yes,

00:12:37   the computers, even though the Next was started at $10,000, way too slow really to handle it at

00:12:45   the time. I do know this. I didn't mention it. Again, the guy just died. I don't know. It's not

00:12:50   the time to to drudge up the unpleasant stuff, but I've talked to people, more than one person,

00:12:57   engineers at Apple who more or less have been there since the Next era, and Next's use of

00:13:07   display PostScript was technologically advanced and clearly the right thing to do, and like as you

00:13:13   said, absolutely is why the groundwork they laid literally just goes straight through to all of

00:13:22   these devices today, right up to the Vision Pro, which isn't even out yet. You can just trace the

00:13:28   operating system through in this way and the way that it handles graphics, certainly, but the

00:13:33   relationship between Next and Adobe was contentious. It's the way that Next kind of got pushed around.

00:13:40   It bothered Jobs. Steve Jobs does not remind anybody of the sort of executive who liked being

00:13:45   pushed around and bullied by bigger companies and being sort of overlooked by the press at large and

00:13:52   written about in the past tense, but the basic story, and this is all never written. This is all

00:13:58   stories told over beers at Macworld's and WWDC's long past, but Next didn't have the source code

00:14:06   to display PostScript. They had a licensing agreement, obviously, and they were allowed

00:14:11   to use it, but they only got to take like the binaries and put them in the operating system.

00:14:19   And so when Next engineers needed to do work that involved actual display PostScript code,

00:14:27   they had to go to Adobe and work in what effectively an air-gapped room without internet

00:14:35   access. And it breeds resentment, I guess, more or less. Like, okay, you guys can come in,

00:14:44   but it's like, you got to, I don't know if they went through a magnetometer, but effectively,

00:14:49   just anything that Adobe could do to make sure that they weren't sneaking out the source code

00:14:54   to PostScript, they would sit there, do all the work at somebody else's office, possibly,

00:14:59   depending on how intense it was. It wasn't just like, oh, we need to come in and spend five minutes

00:15:04   fixing a bug. It might be a major new feature. It might've been when they added color to Next,

00:15:09   something super significant and difficult, weeks at a time. But it's funny because these guys

00:15:15   resented that, but then what has Apple done in the decades past when they invite third-party

00:15:20   developers to come and work on unreleased operating systems and unreleased products like

00:15:26   the iPad and Vision Pro now? It's like, come to us, come into a room. You walk out with nothing.

00:15:34   It's the exact same thing. It's just, who's got the power now?

00:15:38   Yep.

00:15:40   Yeah.

00:15:40   Yep.

00:15:41   The other thing I just, I'll bring up this story from when I was in college,

00:15:46   in studying computer science at Drexel. One of my very, I guess, quite honestly, my favorite,

00:15:51   in hindsight, professor, same as David Manganask, and I had him for a couple of classes,

00:15:59   but he had written his PhD, I guess, dissertation on PostScript. I had him in around '93, '94.

00:16:09   I don't know when he got his PhD, but he was pretty young for a professor. But he had written

00:16:14   his dissertation about PostScript and doing stuff. And so he knew, and he had these amazing little

00:16:20   programs. They were amazing. PostScript really is a programming language, but it doesn't look like

00:16:25   JavaScript or C or the way we think of most normal programming languages. But it is,

00:16:33   if you do write it as a human, you can kind of follow the gist of it. But he would have

00:16:39   these amazing little 13-line programs that would draw incredibly intricate fractals.

00:16:46   You know what I mean? What was that thing we had as a kid with the pencil, the spirograph?

00:16:51   Or when you look at currency very close and you look at the fine-grained,

00:16:57   3D, etched artwork, and it would be like 17 lines of code. And you would get this amazing

00:17:06   stuff out of it. PostScript was amazing like that, but it's so, as I wrote, the thing that makes

00:17:13   Adobe, Adobe made Warnock and what was the other guy's name? Geschke.

00:17:17   >> Chuck Geschke. >> Was that they never stopped

00:17:22   when they invented PostScript. They were like, this is nowhere near enough. Illustrator is the

00:17:26   perfect example because it really was just a front end to PostScript purely. And it wasn't like,

00:17:33   oh, well, the smart people will just write PostScript directly and we'll build PostScript

00:17:41   for dummies and put it on the Macintosh and you can click and drag and do some things.

00:17:47   And if you really want to do something serious, you'll have to poke into the hood and find

00:17:51   the closest person who knows how to write actual PostScript and they'll go into your Illustrator

00:17:57   file and do the real hard work in actual PostScript. No, it was a complete encapsulation.

00:18:03   And maybe I'm drawn to that word encapsulation because of the EPS format, encapsulated PostScript.

00:18:10   EPS files still are part of the publishing industry. PDF sort of is a superset of EPS,

00:18:17   but the encapsulated PostScript format was like the native format of Illustrator and Illustrator,

00:18:24   the app was conceptually a complete encapsulation of PostScript. It was just a word to the millions

00:18:33   of graphic designers who still use Illustrator. PostScript is just a word that they don't need

00:18:38   to really know anything about. It's all there as a visual tool for visual artists working in

00:18:45   visual medium. And I think most of the times in history, somebody invents something like PostScript

00:18:52   and they're so proud of it and they're so focused on it because their mind works like as a

00:18:59   programming language inventor, they're not the same people who have the mind to create a complete

00:19:06   visual GUI tool that encapsulates it. Right. You created this amazing thing. Now,

00:19:10   what are we going to do with it? And the answer is, what do you mean? We'll just make it better.

00:19:13   It's like, no, no, no. You got to do something with it because artists need this. So we had

00:19:17   artists in college. We had this one incredible artist at my college newspaper, and this is like

00:19:21   1991. So it's the very early days of this. And his medium was Illustrator. He just passed away

00:19:27   a couple of years ago. His name is Mel Marcello. This guy was a genius. He was still making like

00:19:31   posters that are hanging in like sports venues and stuff. He was so great with Illustrator.

00:19:37   And I remember I would see these things and you would, you would see whether you were in

00:19:41   Illustrator or Photoshop or no Illustrator or page maker, you'd see it actually draw

00:19:47   all the objects on screen one by one. So you, because back then they wouldn't often,

00:19:54   wouldn't render a preview. And so you'd have to watch it draw live with all of the shading

00:19:58   and everything. And so it was almost like these videos of people making a sketch on an iPad,

00:20:04   where you're seeing not just the finished image, but like all the layers and all the different

00:20:09   shapes that are built up by the artist to get to the point where you get that final image. And it

00:20:15   was just amazing. And that was, so his medium was Illustrator, which means essentially his medium

00:20:19   was PostScript. And then the other thing about Adobe and Warnock and Geschke is right when I

00:20:25   started a Mac user, my boss was Pam Piffner, who ended up writing a book that is out of print,

00:20:30   but you can get it places. It's essentially the Adobe story. I mean, it was for their 20th

00:20:35   anniversary. It's called inside the publishing revolution. So she was deep down in this and she

00:20:38   was my first boss. And that was when they were trying to popularize PDF and release Acrobat.

00:20:44   And at the time it was like kind of a hard sell, but Acrobat, the whole premise of Acrobat and PDF

00:20:48   was PostScript was not actually portable PostScript. You had to rely on embedded fonts

00:20:54   or fonts that were on the hardware. You didn't know I did a magazine when I was in college and

00:21:01   I laid it out in page maker and I had to do it as a PostScript file. And it was like, I couldn't use

00:21:06   anything but the fonts that were on every single PostScript fender printer, because otherwise

00:21:10   you just couldn't do it. And so they said, what we need to do is make something that will be

00:21:15   available everywhere, like a piece of paper for any document. And it'll look the same everywhere

00:21:20   without the overhead. And it took them a long time. It was super hard for them to sell it at

00:21:26   the very beginning. And I think about that now, because that was a long time ago, right? I started

00:21:30   at Mac user in 94. So we're coming up on too many years there, right? It's coming up on 30 years,

00:21:39   but like now we were trying to register my daughter's car in Oregon because she lives in

00:21:46   Oregon now and graduated from college. And every DMV form is a PDF, California, Oregon, doesn't

00:21:55   matter. Everything is a PDF. And that was one of those things where that was a vision thing on their

00:22:00   part. Like they knew PostScript wasn't the end result. It was a pathway to a bunch of things they

00:22:07   wanted to do. And it took a lot of time and a lot of effort for PDF to get where it is. But at this

00:22:13   point, everybody just, it's a PDF. What is a PDF? It's paper. It's it. And that's exactly what they

00:22:20   always meant for it to be is what it is now. But it took them decades of work to get it there.

00:22:26   Yeah. And there really was this straddle between the history, hundreds year old history of print,

00:22:33   which had hundreds of years of tradition and technological advances to get print to the

00:22:41   non computerized print design printing to the point where by the eighties it had reached the

00:22:49   apex in the same way that every technology is at its best, right when it's about to be replaced,

00:22:54   like the very best, smoothest propeller passenger jets came right before the jet era, you know,

00:23:02   made them irrelevant and print forms could be as beautiful as your ability to make them.

00:23:08   Yet was print and you had to put ink on paper and tallying results if you were printing some

00:23:14   kind of survey or whatever would be lots of manual labor, lots of manual labor just to actually print

00:23:20   and distribute them. And computerization makes all sorts of stuff easier. But everything that

00:23:25   came out of computers was ugly and or at the very least crude, if not ugly, right? Just blocky,

00:23:33   visible dots even on the printed output. And it was Adobe at a large level. I mean,

00:23:40   Apple obviously had an interest in it, but Adobe really more even, I think, obviously more so than

00:23:47   Apple in the professional tool space for desktop publishing really pushed for, hey, this we should

00:23:54   be able to use computers to make stuff that's even better looking than print because computers

00:24:01   give human superpowers. They're the bicycle for the mind. We shouldn't settle for,

00:24:05   oh, if it's computerized, it's easier and faster, but looks crude. It should be beautiful.

00:24:12   And I remember the moment, one of those transformative moments for me is we laid out

00:24:18   our college newspaper, like I said, in page maker, but we still shot all of our half tones in order,

00:24:24   you're going to take a continuous tone, a black and white photo in order to make a color or not

00:24:28   color in order to make it print. Well, it's like photocopying a regular thing in a Xerox machine,

00:24:34   right? It comes out. It's awful. So what you do is you use a stat camera and you basically make

00:24:39   a half tone of it, which is the whole thing becomes like pixels. It becomes dots, dots and

00:24:44   absence of dots. And, and then you can reproduce that directly. Okay, great. We got a scanner

00:24:50   my junior year, I think in college and I scanned a photo and it's like, oh my God. And you could

00:24:56   place the photo, you could move the photo around in page maker. And one of the things you could do

00:25:01   was click on the thing and say, put a screen on it. And then when it printed, it was, it was ready

00:25:09   to go for the camera without us having to hand a print to someone who had to take it into a dark

00:25:15   room, who had to use a stat camera to turn it into a half tone that would then get pasted down.

00:25:20   And it was a moment that I remember it was like, can we do this? Can we take a picture and put it,

00:25:28   print it out of the computer and print it? And it looked different in fact, because the dot patterns

00:25:34   were finer and more sophisticated, but, but it worked. And it was just an amazing moment. Like,

00:25:40   I cannot believe the computers let us do this stuff now because it was, I could feel us just

00:25:46   leaving the past behind when I did that. Yeah. I was like a year or two behind you on that.

00:25:52   My college newspaper time was all through the scanner and we were, we've talked about this on

00:25:58   my show before, QuarkXPress, not page maker. But I remember when we got at the newspaper,

00:26:06   our first 1200 DPI laser printers, and we figured out, oh my God, we could make the screens,

00:26:14   these black and white photos look so much better and they were all photo ready.

00:26:19   And then we sent them. And then that issue of the Drexel triangle, the photos all looked terrible

00:26:24   because then it met the analog world of newspaper, ink hitting newsprint paper.

00:26:30   Oh yeah. The press, the press couldn't handle 1200 DPI.

00:26:33   No, we didn't actually screen at 1200, but I forget what we did, but we made what we sent

00:26:39   photo ready to the printer looked way better than anything we'd been sending up until that point.

00:26:44   But then when the ink blobs go that small, it looked at then all these photos that we thought

00:26:50   were going to look better than ever all looked like a photocopy of a fax that had been crumpled

00:26:57   up into a ball and smoothed out or something. It was terrible. Anyway, hats off to John Warnock.

00:27:03   What a career. Absolutely. What a legacy. The other obituary, I think we can spend less time

00:27:08   on it, but our good friend, everybody, America's TV friend, Bob Barker, the host of The Price is

00:27:14   Right, died after a good long run at 99 years old. Almost, almost a hundred. He was a few months

00:27:21   short, which led to a lot of funny people, bless them on the internet saying that Bob

00:27:26   got as close to a hundred as he could possibly get without going over. Amazing. And you made the

00:27:31   same, I actually, I was visiting my mom this week and I said, did you see Bob Barker died? I said,

00:27:36   he was every kid's sick day friend because that was, that show was on in the morning for an hour.

00:27:43   You're a kid, you're home sick. What are you going to do? You just watch TV. There's nothing more you

00:27:47   can do. You just got to lay there. And that was, game shows are half an hour long. That game was an

00:27:52   hour long. It was captivating. And then I look at Daring Fireball and you have written the same

00:27:59   thing, which is he is the, he is your friend when you're a kid and it's, and you're sick home from

00:28:04   school. It was definitely the same thing. Very strong memories of that snow day. A lot of snow

00:28:09   days, if it was a nice snow day, we'd go out and play of course. But I guess actually we might even

00:28:15   be like frozen and wet by the time that the Price is Right was on at 11 AM for us. So yeah, I think

00:28:21   so. I think that was the time. Yeah. We might've actually even on snow days where we went out,

00:28:26   been back in the house by the time it was Price is Right time. Ringing out your socks and having

00:28:31   some soup. But a lot of, a lot of snow days weren't really snow. It was more like ice or whatever. So

00:28:36   you wouldn't go out and boom Price is Right. Of course, rainy summer days where you couldn't go

00:28:40   out and play Price is Right. That was the one thing. And I had a sister, my sister's two years

00:28:44   younger than me. And we might've fought over every other hour of the day if we were both home,

00:28:50   because it was a rainy summer day or a snow day or something. But one thing where there's never

00:28:54   an argument about is 11. Well, of course Price is Right. Absolutely. And it is not to dig down too

00:29:03   far into this rabbit hole, but like it was a show conceived as being for housewives. The whole idea

00:29:08   of it was it's a daytime show. It's for the housewives. And the whole idea is, is you know

00:29:14   what housewives know about? Shopping because they are the shoppers in the family. So we're going to

00:29:18   do a whole game show based on you guessing what things cost. Okay. That's fine. And yet

00:29:23   people of our generation, kids who did not know what anything cost were enthralled by the Price

00:29:32   is Right. And I think it's because it had this Bob Barker, very friendly, and it had this bizarre

00:29:38   sensibility in it. It was a bunch of mini games. We would say now for something like Mario party,

00:29:43   right? It was mini games and they were all, they had weird. Designs sometimes elegant, mostly not,

00:29:50   but weird designs of the mini games. We had the little like yodeling guy, the one on the mountain,

00:29:56   you had the big, big levers that you would pull and a number would come up. You had the big Plinko

00:30:01   thing where the they're all going down. Like there was some maniac who was in the art department of

00:30:06   that who would invent these just bizarre little mini games and they were so striking. And I think

00:30:13   that's why kids liked it is if you got bored with it, you're onto the next one. And then it also

00:30:18   means, you know what they all are and they had a rotating, whatever they had like 10 or 15 that

00:30:21   would rotate and then you'd see it and you'd be like, Oh, I know this one. It was magical. It

00:30:25   really was. I think that was part of what made it like, it's still on. It's still as a popular show

00:30:31   and in that era, people who are younger than us or whose memories aren't as good as us,

00:30:36   the whole morning was filled with game shows until it, until it became soap opera time.

00:30:41   And then the soap operas came on, I guess after the price is right. It was like the price is

00:30:45   right ended it and you might have news at noon and then it was also after that. But that mini

00:30:51   game format is what kept it fresh because every other game was 30 minutes of the exact same game

00:30:58   every day. And some of them are great. I loved the, one of my all time favorites too was Dick

00:31:04   Clark's, whatever. Pyramid. Yeah, but it changed over the year. $25,000, $64,000 pyramid, $100,000

00:31:12   pyramid, but the pyramid was a good game. But it was still, it was two rounds and the rounds were

00:31:18   exactly the same every day. The price is right had these mini games. I wonder how many they had.

00:31:24   I want to say because of what, what would they do in rotation at any given time, right? How many

00:31:29   would have been there? I don't, I don't know, but it was six a day, right? Because there would be

00:31:33   like the first three for the first spinoff and then the second three for the second spinoff.

00:31:38   So sounds about right. So if there were six mini games a day, they must've had 20 or 30 of them,

00:31:42   really. Cause I think if you went all week, you'd see some maybe more than once, but it was great

00:31:48   cause they, and then the other thing they had that was fantastic is most of the time, the normal

00:31:53   prizes people were playing for would be like a dining room set or a brand new washer dryer,

00:31:58   a big jet ski jet skis or something like that. But, but at least once a day, somebody's game

00:32:05   would be for a new car and everybody would go bananas. The whole crowd would go bananas. Yep.

00:32:14   Me and my sister would go bananas. We'd be like, Oh my God. And it happened every day.

00:32:20   Somebody every day, but they, it wasn't like always the second spot or the seventh spot,

00:32:27   or sometimes it would be the first person of the day. It would be like, Oh my God,

00:32:30   the show only started three minutes ago. And already this lady's planned for a brand new Honda.

00:32:35   Holy cow. It's every day. Yeah. You can't just, you can't explain it even logically. I mean,

00:32:42   we could, like I said, I think I, I can understand logically what it was, but as a kid, it was just

00:32:47   like, give it to me. I'm I'm I'm homesick. Give me an hour of this show. I want it. I hope the

00:32:52   yodeling guys are on. I hope the big thing where you pull the handle and it tells you how many you

00:32:57   got right is on because those are my, my favorites. Like there was, yeah, it was magical. And Bob

00:33:02   Barker was the guy at the center of it. Game show host is a tough job. And it's funny that some game

00:33:07   show hosts live on in our memories. You mentioned to Clark. I was thinking about like Alex Trebek.

00:33:13   Like there is something that Pat Sajak is retiring, right? Like there was something that the audience

00:33:17   is really connected those hosts in a way. And Bob Barker, certainly. That was my first thought was

00:33:22   just like so many hours spent in front of the TV. Usually when I was homesick from school and

00:33:27   it was a great, that's just nostalgia, pure nostalgia right there.

00:33:32   It's it's a bizarre human trait to be able to spend literally thousands of hours, hundreds of hours

00:33:39   a year over dozens of years for Barker doing the exact same thing. And people don't get tired of

00:33:48   you. It's like all they get is they just, they just grow in affinity for your presence. I mean,

00:33:53   and you and I could have wasted many, many hours on this show talking about our love of David

00:33:56   Letterman and late night talk shows. I have the same thing, but it's a different kind of charisma.

00:34:01   And Pat Sajak sort of proved it by trying his hand at hosting a late night show, which lasted like,

00:34:07   I don't know, four months or something like that. Just didn't have it as a late night host,

00:34:11   but obviously has it in spades as the host of to me rather insipid game show. But yeah,

00:34:18   it's not my favorite. Merv Griffin actually, who was, had his greatest success on camera as a talk

00:34:24   show host, but he invented game shows and then went out and hired. And that's how he made his

00:34:29   money was he invented game shows and made huge amounts of money from them. Jeopardy and wheel of

00:34:34   fortune being his babies, bringing back jeopardy, which had a much lesser known run before the Alex

00:34:42   Trebek era. And I guess inventing wheel of fortune whole cloth. No. And, and jeopardy was his

00:34:48   invention to begin with the original two. He and his, he and his wife, yeah, the art Fleming

00:34:52   version too. He and his wife invented it. That jeopardy song. Everybody knows was written by

00:34:55   Merv Griffin. It's just bananas. And then wheel of fortune. They actually brought back jeopardy

00:35:00   to pair it with wheel of fortune and yeah, something about that. And I don't know if our

00:35:04   kids have anything, are YouTubers comparable. I mean, like there weren't very many channels.

00:35:09   There wasn't much to do. And it became this thing that you really formed a connection with. And so

00:35:13   it's 99. He had a good run. Good job. Didn't go over. Nope. Didn't go over. All right. Let me

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00:38:19   We're heading into review season. iPhone's coming up next month. I've often thought,

00:38:25   and I used to think about it with speed, is in the early years of iPhone, it was super noticeable,

00:38:32   but it's always noticeable with most computers. But I've always thought that it's way easier to

00:38:37   tell how fast a new one is after you've gotten completely used to it and then go back to the

00:38:44   pre- just one generation back and feel how much slower it is. And I always keep my old iPhones

00:38:51   around for testing with, you know, oh, I've got the old last year's OS on my last year's phone

00:38:57   so that I can, oh, is this new? Is this feature new? What did this look like? Oh, here it is.

00:39:02   And then I'll be like, wow, this scroll's slow. This is crazy. I had that experience this week.

00:39:07   I'm going to be doing a video with my AirPods. I've been using AirPods Pro 2 ever since they

00:39:13   came out. And remember when I got them and I wrote, I reviewed them very glowingly. It's one

00:39:17   of my favorite Apple products. I think it's as much as people love AirPods, I honestly think

00:39:23   they're vastly underrated as augmented reality devices that everybody, especially with the Pro

00:39:32   versions that do the, and the Macs that do the advanced noise cancellation stuff, which is going

00:39:37   to be a little bit more accurate. I don't have the beta software online, but anyway, I love my

00:39:42   AirPods Pro 2. I'm glad I upgraded even though my AirPods Pro 1 were fine and not lost or not

00:39:50   battery deficient. But I thought this definitely sounds better, especially the noise reduction.

00:39:55   And I wear them as a pedestrian walking around Philadelphia 99% of the time, as my use of AirPods

00:40:01   around the city. But last week I had to go somewhere. Where was I? I forget. I don't know.

00:40:09   I had a doctor appointment and it's, I don't know, like a one mile walk. So it's like two

00:40:13   miles round trip. And I had to leave because yeah, that's why I couldn't go look for my AirPods Pro 2.

00:40:21   I could, I didn't know where they were and I thought crap, but I knew time-wise I needed to

00:40:26   leave right now and sort of briskly walk to make it on time anyway. So I took my AirPods Pro 1,

00:40:32   which were still had a charge and I knew where they were. They're in my office. My office is on

00:40:38   the ground floor. They were easy to grab and I'd use them for a two mile round trip walk.

00:40:43   Wow, do they sound terrible? I was blown away. They sound so, and it's podcasts, not music,

00:40:52   just listening to podcasts. And it's not even the noise reduction. At first I was like, well,

00:40:56   it's because the noise cancellation is not as advanced and it's not tuning out the traffic

00:41:01   and the buses and the city noise as well. But even when I got to the doctor's office

00:41:05   and was waiting in a quiet room and I'm just listening to podcasts and I'm like, these sound so

00:41:13   tinny and thin. And I couldn't wait to get home and find my AirPods Pro 2, which were just like

00:41:19   up in my bedroom or whatever, and then do a side-by-side. And I'm like, I'm blown away at how

00:41:24   much better I now see AirPods Pro 2 are compared to when they were brand new. And I was impressed

00:41:32   by them and thought, yeah, this is worth an upgrade, but not blown away. And I just thought

00:41:37   I'd tuck that into the show. Yep, they're great. I don't think I've gone back, but it's hard to see

00:41:43   in the moment, right? When you switch over, I agree switching back sometimes is the really,

00:41:48   you see what you lose when you go backward and you're like, oh, okay, that's the difference

00:41:53   there. I love them. Yeah, they're one of my favorite Apple products, I think ever. And I

00:41:57   was super skeptical originally about them. I'm like, Apple headphones, come on. And the AirPods

00:42:01   were great, but the AirPods Pro are the best. Yeah, that's what I don't travel with anything

00:42:07   else at this point. And talk about a product that just looking at them side by side, I mean,

00:42:14   obviously they're headphones. So looking at them isn't how you're supposed to judge them,

00:42:19   but looking at them, boy, they sure don't look like a major upgrade. I mean, they look pretty

00:42:25   much identical. It's a slightly different pattern of black on the white buds and they're slightly

00:42:32   different ear cup rubber things that go in and the case is slightly different, but at a glance,

00:42:38   it's impossible to tell them apart. It certainly doesn't look like it, but boy, do they sound

00:42:43   different. And now it has me excited wondering where, when AirPods Pro 3 will come out, because

00:42:48   if there is much of an improvement, boy, that's going to be something. I'm trying to think here.

00:42:54   What else do we have? I guess we'll start going down the list. It's just one I want to get out

00:42:58   of the way. It's a weird clickbait story. I put this in the notes. I don't know if you saw this,

00:43:03   but my son, my son sent me this. He said, did you see Apple? That Apple is telling people not to

00:43:10   sleep next to their iPhone when it's charging. And I thought that's insane. I can't believe my son is

00:43:17   so illiterate that he would think that what I don't know what he read that gave him that impression.

00:43:21   I was like, send me a link. He sent me a link on Yahoo news. And the headline is Apple says,

00:43:26   don't sleep next to charging on phone. And I'm like, what you go through. And of course,

00:43:33   Apple said no such thing. They said no such thing. The Apple actual support document,

00:43:38   which I don't believe is new at all, says, here, I'm reading verbatim, avoid prolonged skin contact

00:43:45   with the charging cable and connector when the charging cable is connected to a power source,

00:43:49   because it may cause discomfort or injury. Well, I don't know about that, but then the next sentence,

00:43:56   sleeping or sitting on the charging cable or connector should be avoided. Well,

00:44:02   I don't know. That seems like good advice, right? Like this, I don't think it's a new document,

00:44:09   how that got spun into Apple says, don't sleep next to a charging iPhone. I have no idea,

00:44:17   but lo and behold, I found like two or three other stories now, like including one at the

00:44:22   clickbait factory, the street.com more or less saying the same thing. Of course,

00:44:26   the streets headline is even more clickbait. It's Apple issues, a surprise iPhone danger warning.

00:44:36   I don't know what to do. Jason, I, you talked about this recently. I feel like

00:44:43   SEO and broken media business models haven't just broken like Google searches are kind of broken

00:44:55   now because they're full of garbage search for anything. And you'll get all these AI articles,

00:44:59   or you'll get a search for a recipe and you'll get a blog post with 3000 words. And then the

00:45:03   recipes at the bottom, like, and it's all SEO or search for an old CNET article and you won't find

00:45:08   it because they deleted it because they think that it's SEO. But the one that, that really makes me

00:45:13   dispirited is our people, professional media people, journalists, basically have apparently

00:45:21   over the last few years, had it ground into them so much that you need to write clickbait headlines

00:45:28   because the business model has been so embedded that the only way we make money is if somebody

00:45:34   clicks through on the headline. So we have to get them to click and trick them in any way possible.

00:45:40   And, and what really infuriates me is when it happens in a place where the business model does

00:45:46   not require clickbait and they still do it because they've hired people who have grown up in this

00:45:53   toxic clickbait environment. And my example that I texted to you last week is the San Francisco

00:46:00   Chronicle, a website that is primarily for subscribers of its newspaper and website.

00:46:07   And I am a subscriber. All their headlines are like, "This Bay Area City May Be Committing

00:46:14   Horrible Racist Acts." And I mean, it's just like, guys, I pay for it. Just tell me what city it is

00:46:20   so I can decide if I want to read it. Headlines and subheads are supposed to be relevant. They're

00:46:26   supposed to make me want to read the story because they have informed me whether it's for me or not.

00:46:31   And yet, and I feel like given their business model, I doubt that there's somebody saying,

00:46:38   "You got to write a clickbait headline." I think it's people who just have survived the last 15

00:46:42   years in the media and they don't understand that headlines shouldn't be like that. But I feel like

00:46:48   these are all examples of how broken the whole media ecosystem has gotten because of the last

00:46:55   10 or 15 years of the web. And now it's like, it doesn't even matter if you need the clicks.

00:47:00   You're just going to write the story as if it was clickbait. Write the headline. It kills me.

00:47:04   It's so bad. It's so bad. And this sleeping next to the iPhone thing, I hope it just,

00:47:09   I'm wrong and that by the time people listen to this show or like a week or two, I just have a

00:47:15   sick feeling though that this coming week is going to have a dozen more of these stories because it's

00:47:20   too good to pass up. Can we make that the, like, can we do a hit clickbait like headline for this

00:47:26   episode of the talk show? Can we call it like my iPhone burned my pillow? You won't believe how we

00:47:32   got burned recording this episode. Right. This, this, this, yes, this object was set on fire by

00:47:39   my iPhone. Won't believe it. It's really a pillow. It's like on the one hand, maybe me and you should

00:47:47   be like, Hey, this just makes our work look better. You know, that our work stands out at all the

00:47:57   places. I feel bad for these people. Like I see a lot of these, I don't know if you saw the timestamp

00:48:03   on these. I'm not sure about that, but I, some of the worst stuff I see is on the weekend. And it's

00:48:09   very clearly somebody who is a low paid person. Who's trying, just trying to make it. And they

00:48:16   have, you know, that they've got basically a gun to their head saying, you got to do this many posts

00:48:20   on the weekend because our staff's not here. So we're bringing you in to write these posts.

00:48:25   And that's when I really see the worst. And it's because those people are desperate and they will

00:48:30   do anything to fulfill their quota so that they can get paid. And they're not, they're not on the

00:48:36   top of their game and they don't necessarily, they don't. And some of these stories, like you

00:48:40   mentioned that one story that sort of ran with this and reran it, they don't want to know, right?

00:48:45   Like they don't want to write the article that debunks the story. They just want to pass the

00:48:50   story on with some rewritten headlines. Nothing makes me more dispirited than when I'm in a Slack

00:48:55   or a discord and somebody posts a news story and it's from a website and I click through and I

00:48:59   realize that all they're doing is rewriting the original news story that came from somewhere else.

00:49:04   And it's like, why just linked to the real story. Like I know that this is from, we've got this

00:49:11   covered or comic book fan number one.com. And it's like, yeah, that story was at variety. Can

00:49:18   you just link to variety, please? Like they have a reporter who actually reported something,

00:49:23   please. Can we link to that? It's it's, and it's, it's getting worse because I know you do the same

00:49:29   thing I do is you're trying to hunt through. You're like, well, let me find the original.

00:49:33   And they'll say it was originally reported by variety, but that's not the link. You have to

00:49:38   go to like the next paragraph and they do have a link hidden somewhere, but it's not on the phrase

00:49:44   as originally reported or first reported by variety. It's like, they're, they're making it

00:49:48   even harder to, yeah, because they, they, they want, cause their SEO extends to all their links

00:49:56   being self links. Right. And so the, on first reference, it'll be like, it's a story about

00:50:01   some actor and the link will be to their tag page about that actor with all their other stories

00:50:05   about that actor, because that's how they can build up this search referral power. Or at least

00:50:11   they believe a consultant told them at one point several years ago that that's what they should do.

00:50:17   And it's completely broken them now. And then you, cause you do, you want to find, I ended up doing

00:50:22   a lot of Google searches where I put in the subject matter and variety or Hollywood reporter

00:50:28   or whatever, to see if I can find what they're talking about. And, and invariably when it's a

00:50:34   game of telephone where there's a clickbait article that's based on something out of context,

00:50:38   and then it's rewritten, you have to, you have to go back several steps in order to get to

00:50:44   something like a boring tech note on Apple's website. Yeah. Whole world's coming to an end,

00:50:50   Mallory. I I'm hopeful that the, that the, some of this will get rewritten, that some, some of this,

00:50:59   like now that there are websites that are more likely getting their money from people paying

00:51:05   than from people coming in over the transom, that some, some of the people in charge will be like,

00:51:11   please don't write that headline that way anymore. That's not what we do here. Right. Somebody has to

00:51:15   stand up and say it because you've got people who spent their career having to write those bad

00:51:20   headlines or writing those blog posts that feed. It's like, I can't investigate this or I won't get

00:51:26   paid. I must just take it on face value because it's the only way I can get a post out of it.

00:51:30   I hope that'll, that'll heal at least in some places, but I don't know. Maybe it's

00:51:34   irreparably broken. I don't know. Right. It, it, it comes back to like my, my love of outlining

00:51:41   and proper outlining, not just a word processor that can, has a feature to make bullets indent,

00:51:48   but like an omni outliner type app or the new app from Jesse Gross, Jean, the task paper was probably

00:51:55   best known for it as a Mac app called bike named after the bicycle for the mind thing I alluded to

00:52:02   earlier, which is a really, really great new newish. It's like a year old now Mac outliner.

00:52:07   That's a proper outliner. But new, I love Jesse gross, Jean trivia point,

00:52:11   a distant cousin of my wife. They they share a great grandfather. It's wild. It's the name.

00:52:18   Small, it's the name small world. Wait, wait, wait, Mac developers, the Jesse name or the gross

00:52:23   Jean. My wife's maiden name is Grosjean. But that's only because her grandfather decided it

00:52:29   would sound better if it was more French. Well, her grandfather, her great grandfather is gross

00:52:35   Jean and that's Jesse's too. It's yeah. We, we went through this like 10 years ago. I'm like,

00:52:39   how could it, it's gotta be right. And it actually, they're totally, they're totally related,

00:52:43   but so I paid attention and bike is great. And that's the bicycle for the mind thing.

00:52:47   The idea of doing a proper, I dare I say it sort of Dave Weiner, ask

00:52:51   outliner as a way to structure your thoughts. Right. It with the hierarchy. And that's what

00:52:57   a newspaper front page was is if you really were short on time, you could just read the headlines

00:53:04   and you'd, you'd, you'd basically have an idea of what was important in the world, the nation and

00:53:10   your local community. Most, most newspapers aren't nationally focused. And then if you have a little

00:53:17   more time or about a particular story, there'd be a subhead, which would give you like a second

00:53:22   level of information that you'd be fairly well informed, at least what's going on. And then if

00:53:28   you really want the details, read the details and the newspaper. It's the inverted pyramid,

00:53:32   right? The whole idea of in for people who don't know journalism is yeah, you read the headline,

00:53:37   are you, are you committed? You read the subhead, are you committed? You read the lead,

00:53:40   the first paragraph and literally journalists were always trained. The most important information goes

00:53:46   in paragraph one. The second most goes in paragraph two and so on dating to the period of time when

00:53:52   you would write these stories. And when they ran out of space, they would just cut the article at

00:53:56   that point. So don't save your like big revelation for the end, because nobody will read that far.

00:54:02   And that's totally true, but that was in an era where you could say like, I bought your newspaper

00:54:08   and now I am not going to read all 12 of these stories. I'm going to read the four that appeal

00:54:12   to me the most, but you're competing with yourself and the product was already purchased. And so

00:54:17   you're performing ultimately it's a customer service thing, right? It's the, it's what we

00:54:21   would say in the computers. We'd say it was like the user experience, which is you bought our

00:54:25   product. We want you to get the most out of it by clearly labeling what all these articles are about

00:54:31   and the free web completely broke that where now it was all just like, we just need to trick you

00:54:37   into your browser, loading this page so that the ads will load so that we'll get credit for that.

00:54:42   Right, right. Because in the newspaper printed newspaper era, if you had the newspaper in your

00:54:47   hand, it was assumed you'd already purchased it, whether you're a subscriber or you bought it at

00:54:52   the newsstand you probably had already purchased it. So you already had the whole package. And so

00:54:58   they could treat you accordingly, but it's pretty sad.

00:55:01   I mean, it's different from like headless body and topless bar. That's literally,

00:55:06   that is marketing, right? That is a huge tabloid front page that is meant to be

00:55:10   caught, catches your eye and you buy a copy on the newsstand. That's a little different or a

00:55:16   magazine cover or something. But once you're inside, like, don't, I don't need to be tricked.

00:55:21   Just tell me what it is. I just want to know what the story's about, please.

00:55:27   For people who don't know the reference, I forget the actual details, but I just read that recently.

00:55:31   I think, did I even link to it? But it was like the history of that headline.

00:55:34   The guy who wrote that article died last year. I wrote the headline,

00:55:38   died last year. He was one of their classic Newark Post headline writers. And yeah,

00:55:45   headless body and topless bar, the best headline of all time.

00:55:49   Yeah. But my favorite detail of the headline, and it really was, it was like a gruesome murder.

00:55:55   But they actually sent somebody from the newsroom before they started printing it.

00:56:00   They knew it was the greatest, maybe the greatest tabloid headline of all time.

00:56:04   But they sent somebody to confirm that there was some semblance of topless dancing in that

00:56:11   bar at some times like so that they still had the integrity that they wouldn't have run it.

00:56:16   If it was like, well, there was some shady stuff going on in that bar, but

00:56:20   no topless dancing. Like, no, there was. And it was like payphone, like boss, we got it.

00:56:25   They definitely had topless dancing on Saturday nights. Go.

00:56:28   Yeah, this is it. It's got to be a topless bar. Mr. Musetto cried.

00:56:33   This is the greatest headline of my career. But the Post sent a reporter

00:56:37   who phoned from Queens to say to the relief of all that topless it was. Amazing.

00:56:43   And getting from Midtown or wherever the Post headquarters to Queens was no easy task.

00:56:48   Yeah. But set a guy out there just for that.

00:56:50   Just for that. But that's the integrity that even the New York Post, here we are

00:56:54   singing the praises of the editorial and journalistic integrity of the New York Post.

00:56:58   But that's where we are. Yeah. And that was a, I mean, that was

00:57:02   in a day where that was a really tough thought over newspaper markets. So there's a lot of

00:57:07   competition. And that, I mean, it was the clickbait of its day, those covers that were

00:57:10   going to sell to commuters who were going into the city or walking down the block.

00:57:15   And you had the Post and the Daily News. And then probably like, if you're in Long Island,

00:57:20   at least you had Newsday and you had the Times, obviously, and you're trying to figure out,

00:57:24   does it catch my eye? Do I want to put down a quarter or whatever for it? And

00:57:28   one of my journalism school professors was the city editor at the Daily News for many years.

00:57:32   And I enjoyed the contempt he had for the New York Times and how he was really committed to

00:57:37   doing good journalism and putting in the work and doing the footwork, but also realizing that

00:57:43   you were trying to give people something that they wanted to see or wanted to read.

00:57:47   Speaking of journalism, we can move on and talk about the Disney empire.

00:57:52   Yes. ABC News.

00:57:54   ABC News. ESPN.

00:57:55   ESPN. Let's talk about it.

00:57:56   Actual, you don't think of Disney and journalism, but it's a big part of their business as it

00:58:02   stands. You and I both simultaneously, although me slower and behind you as usual, wrote about the

00:58:11   sort of, what would you call it? It's not a rumor even.

00:58:14   Yeah. It's speculation, possibly motivated by some insiders information, but it was,

00:58:20   yeah, it's basically this piece by Kim Masters and the Hollywood reporter that basically says,

00:58:25   this is an old rumor that everybody in the entertainment industry is tired of hearing,

00:58:31   but it feels, I think it's a really well framed article speaking of like good journalism versus

00:58:36   clickbait. She says, when I talk to insiders, this old thing that didn't make any sense

00:58:42   seems like it might make more sense now. And it all is swirling around Bob Iger returning to Disney

00:58:50   and being under kind of like a lot of pressure to change the business and get it back in growth mode.

00:58:56   And that people within Hollywood think he might be positioning it for a sale, in which case he

00:59:02   might sell off some of his assets in order to make it more, a better position for a sale, perhaps even

00:59:07   to a specific buyer like Apple. And then second, this thing that I hadn't really thought about

00:59:12   until the last maybe month, which is the idea that technology companies are so much bigger,

00:59:18   more profitable and have so much more market cap than entertainment companies. And one of these

00:59:23   entertainment industry insiders quoted in the Hollywood reporter story says, it's inevitable

00:59:29   that the tech industry is going to eat these things because entertainment has now just become

00:59:34   streaming content. And that's part of the tech bubble. And that they said in the end, all that

00:59:39   will be left is Amazon, Apple, Netflix, and one other from an entertainment company. And if that's

00:59:45   the case, I think you and I look at it and say, well, if they're going to eat the entertainment

00:59:52   industry alive, Apple and Disney certainly seem like they're the best partners in terms of their

00:59:58   corporate culture and their fit. And I think that is, I think that's fundamentally true. I think

01:00:04   it's arguable that Iger would want Apple to buy them. I always just come back to the thing that

01:00:10   I know has stopped you too, which is, but why would Apple pay a hundred or $150 billion for

01:00:17   some or all of Disney? That's a harder question to answer, right? I would just want to, before I

01:00:23   forget, I just want to, and this is where I was like, I got to get Jason on the show because of

01:00:28   this, but I just, I saw, I was still writing my piece. I saw that yours was out because I got

01:00:35   bored and was looking at my feed reader. And as soon as I saw the headline, I just go in like,

01:00:40   nope. Yeah. It was like, I can't read his piece because I don't want it to pollute my thoughts.

01:00:44   And I'm so glad I didn't because you tied it together with the Steve Jobs analogy of the Apple

01:00:51   exists at the intersection of technology and the liberal arts and Disney does too. And it's like,

01:00:56   it really, and that, I think about it, Pixar imagineers at the, at the parks, like the ILM,

01:01:03   like there's so many the, the, the new ILM like stagecraft thing where they're using like

01:01:07   a gaming engine to beam. They put images on an LCD screen and they shoot it like it's on a set or out

01:01:15   in, in the world. But it's actually like all of that is this incredible. Our, our friend Todd

01:01:20   Visserie, right. Who works at ILM. Like these are people who love film, they're creative artists,

01:01:26   and they're also highly technical and understand what needs to be done on the technical side

01:01:30   in order to make the creative art better. Like they are. People are like, Oh, Disney and

01:01:36   theme parks and Apple doesn't make any sense. And I'm like, I don't know. Imagineering seems to be

01:01:41   exactly what Apple does on an abstract level. And so like, that's why I say, I think culturally,

01:01:48   they're actually pretty close. And of course jobs was a big, was when he sold Pixar, he,

01:01:53   he sold it to Disney. So that is a Steve Jobs company that's inside Disney. He became a leading

01:01:59   shareholder of Disney. Eiger was on Apple's board. Like there are so many connections here that like,

01:02:06   I, I think that if Apple were to buy Disney, they culturally would make it work. I don't think it

01:02:14   would be like an AOL time Warner thing where, where they're like, Oh my God, we can't put these

01:02:19   two companies together. I think that they are, they might be the two companies. Disney might be

01:02:26   the company that is most like Apple in the world. Maybe Nintendo is the only other competitor here

01:02:30   that would be like that. But like they, they see the world and I think a similar way. And that's,

01:02:38   I think that's interesting when you, when you're musing about this, when you're speculating about

01:02:42   it, I'm not sure, again, it makes the case that they should buy them, but I think if you can see

01:02:49   it right, you can see that resonance between them. There's like an unquenchable thirst for higher

01:02:56   production values and it defines which company am I talking about? It's both right. And it doesn't

01:03:02   matter every time there's a breakthrough, whether it's Apple with the iPhone. And it was like,

01:03:10   it was only the fourth model that went to the retina displays that quadrupled the number of

01:03:16   pixels per inch at a time when the first three iPhones were considered super high res, super

01:03:23   smooth scrolling, beautiful displays, unquenchable. And I'll throw a shout out and I jotted it down on

01:03:30   paper. I'll probably hopefully put it in the actual show notes, but there's a Neil Gabler

01:03:33   biography of Walt Disney, the man, which is one of my, usually I'm either bored to tears by a

01:03:40   biography and never even finished chapter three, or I gobbled the whole book up and this was one of

01:03:45   them. But like the early years of animated films, they were a sensation. It was like a technological,

01:03:53   I mean, motion pictures were a sensation. I mean, people screamed when the first one that was widely

01:03:59   distributed showed a train coming towards the screen because nobody had ever seen anything

01:04:03   like this before. And they thought people panicked and literally panicked and thought something might

01:04:08   burst through the screen. People going to the movies on Saturdays gave people something to do

01:04:14   and see that they'd never had before. But the way that Disney, the Disney studio never stopped

01:04:22   pushing the state of the art forward technically, they did this, I think it was with Snow White,

01:04:27   which again, just doing a feature length animated movie like Snow White, everybody was like,

01:04:34   almost again, like Apple, nobody's going to buy that. That's pan. Everybody thought cartoons were

01:04:39   something. Yes, kids like them for five minutes before the real movie, but nobody's going to watch

01:04:44   a 90 minute cartoon. And of course, yeah, that turned out the opposite. Kids love big, long

01:04:50   feature length cartoons, but they invented so many technological things to fake 3D and depth.

01:04:57   Right. And multi-plane camera, the whole thing. They actually, I don't think it's there anymore,

01:05:03   but Disney, the Hollywood Studios park in Florida used to have one of the attractions. And again,

01:05:11   it's like, guess which, how many people in the Gruber family liked going to see the Walt Disney

01:05:18   museum in the theme park? It was, I'll tell you it was 33%, but they had that multi-plane

01:05:29   contraption. They had the actual one or one of several that they used and I'd read about it.

01:05:35   And it sounded fascinating. It wasn't like, Oh, and then they invented that. And then they stopped.

01:05:39   It was just onward, onward, onward. When the theme parks are the same way, there's this culture,

01:05:44   you could see it. One thing I tried to look up and I couldn't find it. And so maybe I'm imagining it,

01:05:51   but it would have happened around 1994, 95, 96, when Apple was the bad years for Apple.

01:06:03   Obviously, I mean, it was a whole side note, but the, I think the closest Apple ever came to getting

01:06:09   acquired by another company was Sun Microsystems who easily could have afforded it at the time.

01:06:15   And Scott McNeely was like, but why, why would we buy a company with no technology we wanted?

01:06:20   So they, they passed more or less out of ambivalence, not, not out of price tag.

01:06:25   Talk about like, where, where would the whole computing world be today? Who knows? But I seem

01:06:32   to recall though, that at that time when Apple was in financial trouble, that there was idle

01:06:37   speculation of this sort, that was Disney should buy Apple. Do you recall that? I can't, I searched

01:06:44   for it. And because 94, 95, 96 was so early on the web, nothing that was on the web persist from that

01:06:53   time or very little of it. It would have been in print, but I seem to recall. And I don't think it

01:06:58   was, somebody must have speculated at the time because at the time Apple was in trouble and

01:07:02   they're like, well, who should buy them? I seem to recall there were some people arguing, maybe just

01:07:07   spouting off, pulling it out of their own butt, but saying Disney should buy Apple. And it's like,

01:07:12   these companies ebb and flow over decades and what comes around goes around. I don't think,

01:07:18   I don't anticipate a time 20, 30 years from now where Disney once again would be big enough to buy

01:07:25   Apple. I think that's sort of over, but it, it, it, it's been in the air for a long time. I also,

01:07:33   I wonder, it was not just that Jobs sold Pixar to Disney. It's that I don't know how, how many

01:07:40   studios they seriously shopped around where they're, who they were going to collaborate with

01:07:46   other than Disney. Right. I mean, it was like Disney and who was second choice at the time

01:07:50   for, well, they had, they had, Disney had an exclusive distribution arrangement with Pixar

01:07:56   that they were going to have to run out the clock on. So I think there was this thought that they

01:07:59   were the only real suitable partner since they were yoked to them. Yeah. But, but, but when they

01:08:05   made that agreement, right before Toy Story even existed, I don't really think Steve Jobs and John

01:08:12   Lasseter and everybody else in the Pixar brain trust really wanted to do this with anybody else.

01:08:18   I mean, you know, Jobs of course is a famously good negotiator. I'm sure he did talk to,

01:08:23   I don't know, Universal or Warner Brothers or whoever else might've possibly done it, but it

01:08:30   just, even before they sold the company to them, just the whole idea, it just fit, it fit in a way

01:08:36   that it just wouldn't have been the same otherwise. There was just a, Oh yeah, this is exactly,

01:08:41   this is, this is an out of character for Disney to, to make these movies like Toy Story and Bugs

01:08:49   Life and Monsters Inc. These are, these feel like they should be Disney movies in a way that even

01:08:56   Disney owning Star Wars and Lucasfilm, I'm not saying that's unnatural, but it's nowhere near

01:09:01   as natural as the Pixar sub-brand of Disney. Cause it's just kids and fantasy and stuff like that.

01:09:10   And this has gone on. Yeah. I don't know about the certain times, but these rumors have been

01:09:15   out there on both sides. And today it's more referred to as Apple buying Disney. Whereas

01:09:20   back in the day, I think there was a talk about a merger. Yeah. And even Iger said that he thought

01:09:24   that that might happen, but today Apple has just in the last 10 years gotten so much bigger that

01:09:30   that's not how it would be. Yeah. I, I, and I think I'm sort of, I've sort of been thinking about this

01:09:36   a lot broader term just as the overall, where are we as an industry and this whole big tech moment.

01:09:43   Honestly, I really think it boils down to something very simple, which is that computers are

01:09:51   as big at a revolution to society as the industrial revolution was it. It's not like

01:09:59   a continuation of it or, or a tweak. It is that kind of step change. And I, I think

01:10:07   in hindsight, everybody sees what the industrial revolution did to the world,

01:10:13   but I'm sure that at the time in the 1860s and seventies and eighties, it was underestimated

01:10:21   by the adults who grew up pre-industrial revolution. And it was really only the

01:10:27   industrialists themselves who fully understood it. And I think the same thing's going on with

01:10:33   the computerization of everything where people who don't really understand computers just

01:10:40   underestimate how profoundly they're taking over everything. And naturally it's, it's almost

01:10:47   inevitable that companies and very different approaches to the computerization of blank,

01:10:54   Apple and Amazon are very different businesses. They all are to some extent. None of them are

01:11:00   quite like the other Microsoft, Google, Amazon, and let's count meta slash Facebook amongst them

01:11:07   as one of the others in there. You can't look at any two of them and say, well, those two

01:11:12   are doing the exact same thing. They're just arch rivals like Coke and Pepsi. No, they're all

01:11:18   sort of different, but fundamentally they're all humongous because the computerization of blank

01:11:23   is just maybe two orders of magnitude at least, or Apple is a 10 or 11 times bigger than Disney

01:11:32   by market cap. It's an entire order of magnitude. It's it makes sense that, that it's the computer

01:11:38   companies that have the money to do it. And I just don't think, I do think if Disney were to

01:11:44   continue to shrink in market cap stock price and, and investors were so up in arms, Disney

01:11:53   investors were so up in arms that if sale was sort of forced upon the company, I mean, Apple makes

01:12:00   more sense than anybody in terms of who Disney would want. It's really just, would Apple want

01:12:05   to do it? And I just, I that's where I just go back to is it just seems out of character for Apple in

01:12:11   a way that it's not for Microsoft, right? Like Microsoft does things like buys Activision

01:12:16   Blizzard for 69 billion and sure it's bold. It's not like they took it lightly. It's not like,

01:12:22   ah, what the heck? Sure. Go, sure. Phil Spencer, go spend $69 billion on a game studio. I'm sure

01:12:27   they, they, but they do things like that. Apple doesn't, the 3 billion, only 3 billion acquisition

01:12:34   of beats is by far their biggest acquisition. So I agree with you. And yet this is where

01:12:39   I have to say Apple has changed. Their objectives are not necessarily what you would say as like,

01:12:47   they're the most profitable company among the most in history, their most valuable company in

01:12:53   history. What is left for them to do? And the answer is, well, wall street says, keep going,

01:12:57   right? Like that, that, and that is just a fundamental of our economic system. So I would

01:13:02   say they're huge. Where do they go from here? What other worlds do they have to conquer?

01:13:06   And they have done so well with services. You and I have talked about this services has become.

01:13:11   It, I die a little as an old time Mac user. I die a little inside. Every time that Tim Cook comes on

01:13:16   the call and says, Apple's special brand is a combination of hardware and software and services.

01:13:21   And I'm like, that third one, I don't know about that, but it is clearly a huge part of what they

01:13:26   do. What I would say to you is if you're feeling the pressure of wall street to keep growing,

01:13:32   and you're like, how do we keep doing that? Well, services has been a way we do it.

01:13:36   Apple has taken the Apple path up to now for TV plus, which is they are putting in a lot of money

01:13:46   and they're building a catalog, but there's no back catalog to speak of some movies come and go,

01:13:50   but there's really no catalog to speak of. They're building it. And they, they are a nice little

01:13:55   boutique HBO ask service and it's great. I think they've done a very good job. I think it is

01:14:00   exceeded all expectations of what a Zach and Jamie, who they hired from Sony have done. However,

01:14:06   if you, if you say, okay, you're going to still make, how do we grow that? How do we expand that

01:14:14   business and how do we scale it? Cause it is not making TV shows is not necessarily a thing that

01:14:19   really scales. We can give Zach and Jamie billions of dollars every year, but it's only going to be

01:14:24   a pretty linear growth. And if you want to grow services massively over the next five years,

01:14:30   how do you do that? The answer is probably buy a streaming service and all of their intellectual

01:14:36   property, right? Or at least that's an answer. And that's what gives me pause is the idea that

01:14:42   as nice a thing as Apple TV plus is they look at that and say, yeah, but you could just buy Disney

01:14:50   and Hulu and Disney plus and star Wars and Pixar and, and all and Marvel and, and you've got,

01:14:58   and these parks, which actually they don't scale, but they are very profitable. And you like that,

01:15:04   right? And you can just go down the list. That's what gives me pause is not Apple following what

01:15:10   we think of as the Apple playbook, but Apple saying, Oh, services is good is growing great,

01:15:17   but what we really should do is take a quantum leap. And if they decide that that's when they

01:15:22   buy, if not Disney, I think they buy some, some intellectual property and some services

01:15:29   just to give them a big leap where suddenly it's not 20 nice TV shows and some movies,

01:15:35   but it's literally all of Marvel and, and star Wars is in there now. And it's a much more relevant.

01:15:41   They were, I think more than just rumors, but obviously Apple didn't say anything, but

01:15:47   by again, probably Hollywood reporter and variety reporting, both of which again, it,

01:15:52   as two long-term rivals, like Pepsi and Coke, it, it is odd to me that they both are still

01:16:02   great publications, but I think one or both of them are just basically an end when Amazon bought

01:16:08   United artists, Apple would apparently sniffed around it to buy that. And the key franchise

01:16:15   that United artists owns is the James Bond franchise near and dear to my heart. Perhaps

01:16:21   even nearer and dearer to Phil Schiller's heart. Again, I don't think those MGM,

01:16:25   the MGM assets, right? Which went to Amazon. It doesn't matter how big a fan of James Bond,

01:16:31   Phil Schiller is. I'm sure he wasn't advocating in their Monday morning executive meeting. We should

01:16:35   buy them just so that we can get the rights to the James Bond theme song, but you know,

01:16:41   Apple's sniffs around for stuff like that. I mean, it, it makes sense. You know, why not?

01:16:46   They're in this streaming business and if the price is right, they would do it. I guess the

01:16:50   other thing that strikes me about that with, with the services narrative and I have that same,

01:16:56   it's not a queasy, well, it's an uneasy feeling, right? Because it's like, you're, you're the more

01:17:04   Apple relies on the services stuff. It's towing the line with the dark side, right? And it's,

01:17:12   all of a sudden, everybody who's an enthusiast has their complaints about things that is this an ad

01:17:21   or not? You bought a new iPhone and you didn't get Apple care plus and 30 days after you buy it.

01:17:28   Now you've got a red dot on the settings app that's saying, Hey, you've still got so many

01:17:33   months left to buy Apple care plus for this. Or if you don't subscribe to Apple's media streaming,

01:17:40   their own ones, Apple music and Apple TV plus and Apple one, right? Which includes the fitness and

01:17:48   stuff. They put things in the operating system that you pretty hard not to call an ad, even

01:17:54   though they don't look like an ad it's, it's a form of advertising to take a row of the settings

01:18:00   app at the top. Where did they draw the line? And you can see, I mean, and people who complain about

01:18:06   it, I think have valid points and people who think they've crossed the line may not be wrong.

01:18:12   But I think even people who think they've crossed the line have to admit they haven't,

01:18:17   they haven't become untethered in that direction, right? They're not flying out of control in the

01:18:25   way that the latest versions of windows, there's some crazy stuff in a factory, fresh install of

01:18:31   windows on like a $400 PC with the number of ads. And I they've gone back to, I think they've gone

01:18:38   back to, you have to get a different version of windows to install apps from outside their app

01:18:43   store. And it's like, you can just reinstall it over. It's not like with the iPad or iPhone where

01:18:50   you can just install an alternate version of iOS to get a version that lets you go outside the app

01:18:56   store. You can do that with windows. It's still just a PC. You can put a full version of windows

01:19:01   there, but Microsoft has gone so far in that direction in a way that it's like, take a look at

01:19:08   where the rest of the industry is if you really want to bitch about apples, but I get it. And you

01:19:15   have to say, when you follow the, the, the, I always just complete this. I just lean on six

01:19:21   colors coverage of Apple's quarterly financials. I just wait to you post and then I linked to your

01:19:27   but I follow them closely enough to know that they didn't lock into this. Tim Cook. I mean, it is

01:19:36   as a pure CEO move. It is a strategy that he laid out. He explained it years ago,

01:19:43   eight years ago, something he was like, we're going to whatever it was triple our services

01:19:47   revenue in the next four years. He said he, which they beat by a mile, but yeah, he laid it out in

01:19:52   that one quarterly call where he's like, this is what we're going to do. This is our area of growth

01:19:56   because it was a time when the iPhone revenue was kind of flat and everybody was like, how are you

01:20:00   going to grow? Cause we want to see growth and he's like services. That's where it's going to be.

01:20:04   And that's what gives me pause when people say Apple wouldn't do X, right? Cause it's like

01:20:08   Apple hasn't done X so far maybe, but who's to say like this, what decisions will they make?

01:20:16   And I know that when you and Ben Thompson talk on dithering about this, like it is,

01:20:21   it has been learned now by every streaming service that advertising is more profitable

01:20:28   than having people pay for an ad free streaming service. And that's why Disney and Netflix and

01:20:33   everybody else is creating ad versions of their services and then ramping up the price of the

01:20:38   ad free version, because if they don't ramp it up, they're actually making less money from people

01:20:43   paying them more than from people paying them less. And I wrote a piece of Mac world about this,

01:20:48   like three or four months ago, that was basically, it is inevitable that Apple TV plus will have an

01:20:52   ad tier and it is, it just is. And that's so it's like, well, would Apple do that? It's like, well,

01:20:57   they already have an ad business. There's already a, they have a vice senior vice president or

01:21:00   whatever of advertising who is who has said that he's going to grow that business. Most of it is in

01:21:05   like app store search and stuff now, but clearly they're going to go into this, into this business

01:21:11   of, of TV advertising. And you think, well, Apple's never going to do that, but they are.

01:21:15   And, and I also hear sometimes like people were like, Oh, they're not going to be interested in

01:21:19   ESPN. They have a gambling partnership that they just did for ESPN bet. And so that takes it off

01:21:24   limits. It's like, I was watching Friday night baseball this week. And not only is the pregame

01:21:30   show, have a segment about your betting line, but during the game, among of the odds of like

01:21:36   chance that they'll get a hit chance, they'll get on base chance. They'll strike out. One of them

01:21:40   was just straight up odds on the over under of the game in progress, right? That is an Apple

01:21:48   commission and you can blame it on the MLB network that produces it. But like that stats company

01:21:52   that's doing those stats, they only do that on Apple TV. Plus they have a deal with Apple and,

01:21:57   and Apple's not like, no, no, no, don't pretend that the gambling doesn't exist. The over and

01:22:02   under doesn't matter. Like, no, it's there. It's right there. So be careful when you say

01:22:09   Apple wouldn't do it or Apple has never done it because it doesn't, maybe they have, and maybe

01:22:15   they're trying stuff, but also you never know, like Apple would never produce TV shows and movies.

01:22:21   Apple would never have a fitness feature where they have literally Apple employees who are

01:22:26   fitness trainers in a studio in Santa Monica, like Apple would never until they do. And that's the,

01:22:32   that's the part that gives me pause. It's like, I know they've never done it before, but I don't

01:22:37   know. I mean, given the right circumstances, they might. Yeah. And it's the best way I can put it is

01:22:42   I'll use two analogies. There's dams crack and then they burst. And and then there's the

01:22:48   Hemingway bankruptcy thing. How did he very slowly and then all at once slowly and then,

01:22:55   and then quickly, we have all sorts of other stuff to talk about here, but we obviously

01:23:01   people who are familiar with your appearances on my show here know that we love, we love sports

01:23:05   and we love TV sports. It it's just unbelievable how the dam broke on gambling with professional

01:23:14   sports. And again, it is the computerization of everything. It's online gambling. This never would

01:23:20   have happened. There's no, in my opinion, there is no roll of the roll of the dice for alternate

01:23:28   versions of the 20th century where, where sports gambling is legal in, I don't know how many states

01:23:35   it's up to now, but I think it's most of the country you can gamble on sports legally. There's

01:23:41   no way that that happens before the internet. It just, it just wasn't true. I mean, New Jersey

01:23:46   had casinos in the late seventies at a time when the only only state in the whole country where

01:23:53   you could gamble at all legally was Nevada. And then Atlantic city opened real casinos in like

01:24:00   1977 or 78, but left out sports, which because it, it, it was just so verboten and they were like,

01:24:10   New Jersey sports gambling. No way like forget about it. There's the idea because they were

01:24:16   at least the idea was, and I think it's true in real casinos. The blackjack games are on the

01:24:23   level that roulette tables. They, the casinos want them perfectly fair. They, they don't want them

01:24:28   to be crooked because the rules of the game, give them the edge. They don't need them to be crooked,

01:24:34   but the fear with sports is that you introduce gambling and all of a sudden point shaving,

01:24:41   fixing games, it's all that. And we're seeing some scandals with college sports players and coaches.

01:24:49   There was, I forget which some obscure NCAA team, the coach tried to bet. Did you see that story?

01:24:55   It was some, he tried it. He had like a friend tried to bet a hundred thousand dollars on a game

01:25:01   where there was only like $500 grand total bet. And they were like, sir, that's an unusually large

01:25:07   wager. I mean, we're going to have to call a manager. And he said to them, don't worry. I have

01:25:12   inside information. Yeah. Yeah. Cause the coach had told him that the starting pitcher or something

01:25:16   wasn't going to pitch. And yeah. And literally his excuse for trying to place this enormous wager on

01:25:23   an obscure college baseball game was don't worry. I have, I have inside information. Yeah. That'll

01:25:29   get them to accept your bet. That it's that insider info is going to make sure that you

01:25:34   have to pay. I've mentioned this before, or I remember one thing I noticed for years and

01:25:40   years, cause I've always been interested in sports betting. Even when I couldn't do it legally

01:25:44   was Al Michaels has always obviously been interested in it. Famous, the Dean of TV play

01:25:50   by play announcers at this point, but he would often at the end of a, like a football game with

01:25:56   a 13 point lead. So the game isn't really up in the air, but somebody kicks a field goal at the

01:26:01   end that crosses the over underline. And he'd be like, well, there's some people out there who are

01:26:06   pretty happy about that field goal. And it's like, if you knew you knew, but he couldn't even say

01:26:11   that's what put it over the, it was a 51 point over underline and it went from 48 total points

01:26:16   scored to 51 or something like that. He couldn't say that he would just say, ah, there's some,

01:26:22   some, some TV viewers out in Nevada who were interested in that field goal. And it was just,

01:26:27   you just daintily touch on it. And now the halftime show is brought to you by FanDuel

01:26:32   and they've got people begging you to place bets on the second half in TV commercials.

01:26:40   I often brought this up. My family has gone on several Disney cruises over the years, cruise

01:26:45   ships, as far as I know, every major cruise line, every cruise ship in the world has a casino

01:26:50   somewhere on the ship because guess what? They make money. And once you're three miles out at sea,

01:26:56   you're, you're only covered by international lawsuit. It's legal. Guess whose cruise ships

01:27:01   don't have casinos? Disney. But to me, and this gets to the, Hey, if Apple did buy Disney,

01:27:10   they probably keep them wholly intact as Disney. Disney, they own ESPN. ESPN is in totally full on

01:27:20   into sports gambling in all the ways you, we just talked about, but there's no mouse logo on ESPN.

01:27:29   Right? Exactly. Different brand, different rules. It's a different brand, different rules. And

01:27:33   look at the way Apple's treated Beats headphones. Right? I there's obviously some engineer that's,

01:27:40   it's not like some kind of isolated team. They get the same W one W two chips and integrate with the

01:27:47   OS in the way that the only other brand of headphones that do are the AirPods that we

01:27:52   talked about earlier on the show. But the industrial design of beats headphones,

01:27:56   they don't look like Apple products. They look like beats products.

01:27:59   Right. And they have, and beats has like a name image and licensing program with college athletes

01:28:05   now where they're like given paying. Cause you can do that. Now you can pay college athletes to wear

01:28:10   your headphones in this case. And like that's, and, and I would put that in the category of Apple

01:28:15   would never write like Apple would never well beats is owned by Apple and beats is paying college

01:28:20   athletes to wear their headphones. And that's the thing. Like, so, so I would argue whatever five,

01:28:25   seven years ago, if I said, Oh, a couple of Sony executives, Jamie Ehrlich and Zach van Amburg. Oh,

01:28:33   yeah. Like they're going to get hired by Apple and have their own offices in LA, but it's still Apple

01:28:37   and they're going to report to Eddie Q and they're going to make movies and TV shows and win awards.

01:28:41   Oh, Apple would never do that. That sounds ridiculous. Right. Except that's literally what

01:28:45   happened. And, and I think, again, I'm not, I'm not trying to make the case that Apple should buy

01:28:52   Disney here. I'm saying that I feel like a lot of people, I went on a rant about this in my podcast

01:28:57   with my curly upgrade of like, I fear that a lot of people have a vision of Apple in their head.

01:29:03   That is a little bit out of date because the Apple of today is so huge and they are, they,

01:29:08   their tendrils are expanding into so many different areas. And it's very easy to say,

01:29:12   Oh, that that's beyond like, Apple would never do that. Apple would never own a theme park. It's

01:29:17   like, well, but like theme parks are very profitable and are very technological. And

01:29:24   there's a lot of ways to fuss over the consumer experience and take and make a lot of money from

01:29:29   people. Right. It's like, what part of that is not Apple, right? Like the theme park part,

01:29:33   but not the other parts. And, and they have shown the ability to change in ways that are surprising,

01:29:40   like having an entire entertainment wing that's run by intent entertainment executives. And yeah,

01:29:45   they report to Eddie, but like Eddie's not ordering the shows, right? Zach and Jamie are

01:29:50   ordering the shows. Eddie's like working with them at a high level and setting their budget or

01:29:55   whatever. That's the part of it. That's like, I know, I know it's weird, but just like beats

01:30:01   is doing its own thing in some areas, a Disney brand and an ESPN brand and anything that they

01:30:06   would want to want to keep, they can set some rules. It's too easy and too facile, I think,

01:30:13   to say, Oh no, but Apple would never be involved with gambling or it doesn't make any sense. Like

01:30:18   in the context of ESPN, maybe it does make sense, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it makes

01:30:23   sense that to put a casino at Disneyland, right? Like probably not, probably not that.

01:30:29   Jason Tucker Right. Disney's not going to do that, but,

01:30:32   and Apple is not going to make, and speaking of physical infrastructure and building out real

01:30:38   world places in the year 2000, people thought it was crazy that Apple was building out its own

01:30:42   retail stores. Why would a computer maker do that? Like Gateway, even their closing stores. So why

01:30:47   would Apple, who has no idea what they're doing with retail do this? That doesn't make any sense.

01:30:51   Well, today we have an entire generation of adults, my college-age son, I don't think could

01:30:58   believe that you couldn't just go to the Apple store to get your iPhone fixed.

01:31:03   Dave Korsuns I don't know if you've noticed this,

01:31:05   but I've noticed this, that there are, there are certain people who listen to our shows and read

01:31:09   what we write and all of that, who are vociferous defenders of Apple. And we'll say like, Apple,

01:31:15   Apple has to have a reason for this. Apple can essentially like they're, they're, they're fans

01:31:21   and that's fine, but they're like, Apple could do anything. And yet then you say something about

01:31:25   like, well, why didn't Apple do this? And the response is, Oh, Apple could never do that. That's

01:31:31   too hard. And it's like, well, wait a second, which is, are they brilliant and everything they

01:31:34   do is right. Or are they incapable of solving a user interface problem in one of their platforms?

01:31:40   Right. And I, I am a believer that Apple is incredibly capable of, of solving hard problems

01:31:47   if they matter. And if they want to do them, this is one of those things where it's like,

01:31:52   I just don't believe Apple would never, because I've seen it right. Retail is such a great example.

01:31:57   It's like Apple would never Apple. Why would they do an MP3 player? Right. Like again,

01:32:02   Apple would never until they do it. And then you, you say, Oh, of course. And so I'm not saying

01:32:08   they will. I'm just saying maybe think for, instead of being negative about it,

01:32:14   stop for a second and consider what if Apple owned Marvel and Pixar, Pixar and Star Wars and

01:32:22   Disney plus and Hulu, and what would they do? And what would that mean? You could view it as like,

01:32:28   is it a good deal or a bad deal? Is it worth the money? But just think for a moment about like,

01:32:32   isn't that would be interesting. And it's not so far afield to take us all the way back to

01:32:37   that Hollywood reporter story. It used to be ludicrous. Now I look at it and I'm like, maybe,

01:32:43   maybe there it's maybe the biggest financial one in history is well, blah, blah, blah. You know,

01:32:50   cell phones are computers. Apple makes good computers and Apple makes good minutes, but

01:32:54   blah, blah, blah. They're never going to do it because they have to go through the carriers.

01:32:57   Right. That was the thing. The argument pre-iPhone ended with, well, Apple's never going to do this

01:33:03   because can you even imagine Steve jobs working with cell phone carriers and let alone in America,

01:33:08   let alone all around the world. Well, guess what worked out. They did it. And they had, and, and,

01:33:15   and there's this moment again, it's that idea that like Apple is amazing, but they, they, they,

01:33:19   they certainly can't do that. It's like, they certainly can't work with. Dozens of carriers

01:33:23   across the world and all sorts of different markets. And it's like, well, they, they do,

01:33:27   they, they do. I remember even when the IMAX were coming out, the new IMAX, the M1 IMAX,

01:33:33   I remember somebody sort of saying, Oh, you know, they can't do like all those different colors.

01:33:38   Cause think of how many skews there would be. And it's like, they did, they did seven, six colors

01:33:44   and silver, seven colors and color match cables and color match keyboards and color match track

01:33:50   pads and color match mice, every one, a different skew. And they put it in their channel and it's

01:33:55   all over the world online. And a lot of them in stores and they did that and they do the colors

01:34:00   for the like, yes, I know that it's really hard and it seems like, well, why would you do that?

01:34:06   And the answer is if Apple thinks it's important, they will make it happen. They will find a way.

01:34:10   Let me take a break here and thank our good friends at Memberful. Oh, Memberful, Memberful.

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01:35:02   own the membership list so that if you ever decide to go elsewhere, you just take your membership

01:35:08   list with you. They pay you directly to your Stripe account. Everything is right there in your

01:35:14   control. They're just there to supply all the stuff you need to make it easy. And they make money when

01:35:20   you make money. That's it. And they're there to help you with ideas or strategies for how to grow.

01:35:26   They have experience, obviously, with all the sites that are already using Memberful.

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01:35:37   and change their email address if they need to change their email address, update their

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01:35:57   your emphasis, where you should steer your future example. They let you create things like members

01:36:03   only podcasts near and dear to probably everybody who's listening to this hard. I don't know if

01:36:08   there's anybody listening to this who's not listening to some members only podcasts. And

01:36:12   there are some people who are on today's episode who have members only podcasts. It's a big deal.

01:36:17   So where do you go? Diversify your revenue stream with membership at Memberful. Six Colors is one

01:36:25   of the places. Is the incomparable Memberful too? Yep. I have two different Memberful things and we

01:36:31   use them for both and they both do a great job. This is pure serendipity. This is not why Jason's

01:36:37   on the show, but I'm a member of Six Colors happily paying. I think, I don't know, maybe you sent me a

01:36:44   freebie, but I would happily pay so you should cancel my freebie if it's free. Anyway, anything

01:36:49   you need. Newsletters, podcasts, gift subscriptions, Apple Pay support, it's all there. Get started for

01:36:55   free with no credit card required. Go to memberful.com. Memberful.com/talkshow.

01:37:04   Memberful.com/talkshow. Oh, what a great service. I like it when it's serendipity with the

01:37:13   guests in a service like that. No, they've served me well. What else did we coincide with this week?

01:37:20   The iMac turned 25 and we both wrote about that. You wrote a terrific piece for

01:37:26   The Verge of all places. Yeah. Caught me by surprise with that one. I ran into those guys at WWDC

01:37:33   and they said, "Hey, it's the 25th anniversary of the iMac this summer. Would you like to write

01:37:40   something for us about it?" And I said, "Sure." I've written for them like three or four times,

01:37:45   I think, since I left IDG back in the day. So I said, "Sure, that was great." And they said,

01:37:50   "Don't write about design because I'm going to do a separate piece about design." And then that piece

01:37:55   fell through right at the moment where I was feeling short of my word count. And I got the

01:38:00   go ahead to write about the George Foreman grill. So then I threw that in there and then I was in

01:38:04   pretty good shape. But it was fun to revisit that. I wrote about it a little bit for my 20

01:38:10   Macs for 2020 project three years ago, but it was nice to try to sit there and rub my chin and think

01:38:19   about the big picture, about explaining to people who weren't around then maybe why it mattered so

01:38:25   much. And the idea that in some ways, the places where the iMac made the biggest difference were

01:38:32   not what you might think because that original iMac, the G3 iMac was the only one that used a

01:38:39   CRT display. All the rest of them were flat panels. Desktops aren't as important as laptops are now,

01:38:46   but it saved Apple. It literally saved Apple. It gave it the money to complete the OS X transition,

01:38:53   which they needed. And then they had the money to do the iPod. All of those things had to get money

01:39:03   from the iMac first and it really revived the Mac in general. And then I think the one that gets

01:39:09   very little credit these days is USB, which was in existence before the G3 iMac.

01:39:16   But it was just sort of kicking around in PC makers. They're like, well, we'll put it on there

01:39:21   maybe as an option, but like really everybody's gonna use parallel and serial and that's what

01:39:25   it's gonna be. And Steve Jobs was like, all things that we used to have, Mac serial, SCSI,

01:39:32   ADB for keyboards and mice, and the floppy drive. I want them out. He kicked them out.

01:39:39   And it's like, that's heresy. And that's one of those things that I think is a real legacy of the

01:39:44   iMac is that it was a transgressive computer that broke compatibility in a bunch of different ways,

01:39:51   benefited from the fact that it was the opening days of the internet and a Mac

01:39:55   could survive on the internet. You would read your email and look at the web on the Mac,

01:39:58   just as well as a PC. And that I think it's really striking that 25 years later,

01:40:03   if you take that keyboard or that stupid round mouse, like I'm sitting here in a Mac studio

01:40:09   right now. I could literally take that stupid round mouse and plug it into my Mac studio

01:40:14   without an adapter. And it works 25 years later. That's bizarre. That's crazy. But USB,

01:40:21   right? That was the thing. And I think USB would not have made it as fast and been as popular,

01:40:27   were it not for the kick in the pants that the iMac gave because they announced it in the spring. And

01:40:32   then, and then they shipped it in August. Every vendor of peripherals was like, oh, we'll have

01:40:38   one. We're going to do a USB one. It was like, that was the moment where they realized they had

01:40:42   to promise a USB product, even though they didn't have it yet and had to deliver it because they

01:40:46   knew the iMac was going to be big. It's key that they got rid of the legacy ports and for Apple,

01:40:52   it was ADB, which I still use an ADB keyboard, but with an adapter. But the fact that they got

01:40:59   rid of that, that's the difference, right? The PC way of doing it. It really was true that even

01:41:06   though USB had been out for a while, there were a lot of PCs that didn't even include it because

01:41:10   they're like, well, we'd only be able to add it because of course we would just add it so that

01:41:15   they could still use their serial keyboard and serial mouse. So if we're just going to add it,

01:41:20   why bother? It's just another way of connecting a mouse. We've already got it. And if Apple had

01:41:25   thought the same way, they would have included ADB. Of course, I'm sure the Apple way, if they

01:41:31   had done that, would have been to make the new mouse and new keyboard USB use this new connector.

01:41:37   But then the third parties wouldn't have jumped on it because they would have already said the

01:41:42   Logitech and whoever else were making ADB mice at the time would say, well, just buy our ADB mouse.

01:41:48   If you don't like this hockey puck mouse, just buy it. Whereas the fact that you either had to buy

01:41:53   the one adapter, the Griffin iMate, which I'm not even sure when that came out, but of course it was

01:41:59   blue translucent plastic, but it wasn't cheap even at the time. So it just forced, all of a

01:42:07   sudden the whole industry was like, well, we better make USB mice. And a lot of people don't

01:42:11   like this mouse, so there's a market for it. I mean, I don't think that was deliberate,

01:42:15   but, and I always bring it up, my wife loved the mouse, used it for years afterwards,

01:42:19   even when she no longer was using her purple iMac. It was not universally hated, but of course was

01:42:26   mostly, mostly hated. James Thompson says that during OS X demos in the development of OS X,

01:42:37   when Steve would come in to try something out, before he came in the room, they would take the

01:42:44   round mouse and they would rotate it. Just so when the first time Steve tried to use the mouse,

01:42:50   he would just grab it and push up and it would go to the side and he'd get frustrated. And that was

01:42:55   their way to just remind him, you got to get rid of this mouse. It's really bad. And they just would

01:43:00   do it every time. And they did right, like in 2000. So two years later, two years later at

01:43:06   Macworld Expo, they're like, we're sorry. Just weird. Like here's, we got an oval mouse for you.

01:43:12   JS Yeah. Wasn't they, when they, when they went from one color, the, I always pronounce it wrong,

01:43:17   Bondi blue, Bondi blue. James It is Bondi.

01:43:21   JS Bondi. James Even though that sounds like Bandai and the

01:43:24   Power Rangers, it is Bondi, not Bondi. It's Bondi beach, Australia.

01:43:31   JS When they went to the five colors, didn't they add like a dimple on the mouse button? I think the

01:43:37   original Bondi blue one had no dimple. So it was much, it was even easier to misorient because it

01:43:43   was a circle. But anyway, yeah, the USB thing was super interesting. One thing that noted,

01:43:47   I noticed last week, looking back on it was forget if it was your piece or somebody else's or

01:43:53   multiple of them. But talking about that, they showed like a, there was a close up photograph

01:43:59   of the ports panel on the iMac. And it just struck me how low the industrial design was. Like there

01:44:08   were gaps around everything. It was just sort of a piece of plastic with a hole in it. And then

01:44:13   behind it, you could see, they just put like a generic ethernet card. And there was like a gap

01:44:19   around the ethernet port and a gap around the USB port. Like nothing was as seamless as it is

01:44:26   it quickly. It didn't take very long under the new jobs regime to start closing those little air gaps

01:44:33   around things like that. It was very crude in some ways looking just at the details of how the USB

01:44:41   port melded with the plastic around it. I remember at the time I started writing Daring Fireball in

01:44:48   2002. But I was equally obsessive about all of this stuff at the time. If anything, more worried,

01:44:55   more obsessive because Apple seemed to be in trouble. And I really, it seemed pretty clear

01:45:01   that if Apple didn't make it, I'd either have to switch to using Windows for everything or,

01:45:07   I don't know, become a carpenter or something. But I remember being focused so much more on the OS

01:45:16   story, right? And that's the whole reason they bought NeXT. The whole idea was we need a new

01:45:20   next generation operating system. Our efforts internally had failed. We need something. We're

01:45:26   either going to buy B or we're going to buy NeXT. We went with NeXT. And now here's the plan. And it

01:45:33   kept changing. And it was all, it had to be, I mean, it's not a mistake, but it was like they

01:45:39   bought them at Christmas, 1996. And so effectively beginning 1997, and they were like, we'll have

01:45:46   this new operating system out in 1998. No. And then it was like, oh no, we'll have it out in

01:45:52   99, no, 2001. I don't know. It's hard. OS X, Mac OS X was a very, very, very hard project to get to,

01:46:00   but that's what I was focused on. And the up and downs of, well, so there was the Rhapsody and the

01:46:08   Blue Box, the Yellow Box, the Yellow Box. Yeah. They were trying to figure out a way to navigate

01:46:13   that thing where they could use most of the technology brought over by NeXT, but make it just

01:46:19   compatible enough with the Mac that Mac users would be able to move to it and not have everything

01:46:25   break. And that sort of became, in the end, it became Cocoa and Carbon. But there was originally,

01:46:31   it was going to be like an emulator for Mac OS. And they're like, no, no, no, no, no, we can't do

01:46:36   that. And they, and they, but it was, again, talk about things that don't get enough credit.

01:46:41   The OS X development cycle that, because everything Apple makes is based on OS X,

01:46:47   right? To this day, everything is, is, and that's a legacy from NeXT and some decisions they made

01:46:52   in 98, 99, 2000, 2001. Any misstep there, the jig is up.

01:46:58   Yep. There was a strategy. I think the Yellow Box was the name of it. That was because NeXT step or

01:47:05   OpenStep ran on Intel hardware and there was, there was an idea that what we now call Cocoa

01:47:12   would run on Windows. And so like Carbon apps would only run on Mac OS X or Rapsody or whatever

01:47:18   the name was, and Cocoa apps would run there too, and would be best there. But if you wrote for these

01:47:23   NeXT frameworks, you could also run your apps on Windows because they were going to ship the,

01:47:28   and they did all, but the software, software, software, OS strategy frameworks was all what

01:47:33   I was thinking. And I, my, it's very vivid. I just remember when the news broke that Apple shipped

01:47:39   this new computer and it was like, Whoa, look at that. That is not just like a new beige box. This

01:47:45   is a state, a hardware statement. I just, that's the, it was like a thunderclap moment. I didn't

01:47:52   get to watch it live. I wasn't covering them. I wasn't at the Flint center or wherever it was held.

01:47:58   They, there was no tech. It wasn't even possible to, to live stream the event. You had to read

01:48:03   about it somewhere, but it made news, right? I mean, and it's, I linked to Steven Levy's

01:48:10   cover story for, I think it was a cover story for Newsweek. Certainly should have been if it

01:48:14   wasn't. And there was lots of coverage in Fortune where Brent, he wrote the, co-wrote the book,

01:48:20   Being, Becoming Steve Jobs, had, had a bunch of access to Steve Jobs and he was on the cover there,

01:48:26   but it just, cause it looked, it, it, it, it was meant for a magazine cover cause it was a very

01:48:31   attractive device and it didn't look like other computers. Right. And it was like a statement.

01:48:36   And the whole idea of an all in one Macintosh, it just sort of, it was like a statement that said,

01:48:44   this is still the Macintosh from 1984 in some ways, right? There's, there was a,

01:48:50   we're back to making things that are of the same DNA that, that made the Mac, what the Mac,

01:48:58   the, the, the good parts that were worth saving. I said this in the Verge piece,

01:49:02   essentially when he came back to Apple, he's like, what do we have here? I actually likened it to the

01:49:08   princess bride where it's like, can we get a list of assets? Why didn't you mention a wheelbarrow

01:49:12   and a Holocaust cloak? Now we've got something. It was like that. And it's like, what do we have?

01:49:16   Well, we got Johnny Ive. He's playing around with all this plastic stuff. Like, all right,

01:49:19   well, we got this diskless workstation thing called Columbus. We could probably adapt that

01:49:23   into something. It's like, all right. Okay. Okay. What else do we have? And then Steve Jobs supplied.

01:49:27   We have the original vision of the Mac, which is a computer for the rest of us and all in one

01:49:31   that is not maybe the most ergonomic kind of thing, but you can move it around. It's got a

01:49:37   handle, it's got a carrying thing. And, and that was a huge advantage. And keep in mind,

01:49:42   it was, it was not that long after, right? It was, it was 25 years since the iMac came out.

01:49:48   The iMac came out, what, 14 years after the original Mac. So Steve came back to the company

01:49:54   and he was like, we still haven't nailed that. Let's nail that. Let's go back to the idea of

01:49:59   creating an appliance that is friendly, that you can put on the desk, that people will be able to

01:50:05   use. And so he, he was playing the hits in a way. He was saying we didn't nail it with the original

01:50:09   Mac because the computer industry didn't, computers didn't end up looking quite like the

01:50:15   original Mac. The GUI sort of happened with Windows 95, but everything's a beige CRT with a bunch of

01:50:22   cables and a beige modem and a beige computer tower and all of that. So like, let's do that.

01:50:27   And we'll use the translucent plastic from that kid in the design team. And we'll use this

01:50:31   diskless workstation concept and we'll throw out a bunch of old stuff and we'll make it happen.

01:50:36   I was struck thinking about it, struck by how much it was really Jobs going back to his old

01:50:41   playbook and say, look, what was the original idea for the Mac? Let's do that again. And it is that,

01:50:48   I mean, it really is what he envisioned. It's that same all in one thing that he was thinking

01:50:53   of with the Mac. I, I probably, as you're listening to me talk right now, the album art

01:51:00   for this chapter, but there's a, it was from the second generation when they went to five colors,

01:51:05   but the, the Yum poster and I, I tweeted it on, well, whatever you call it, posted about it on

01:51:13   Mastodon and Threads yesterday or the day before. And so many people responding to my post about

01:51:19   what a great poster it was and just sort of, cause I, I consider those five colored iMacs,

01:51:25   the original iMac too. It's just, it's not really a new generation. It was just sort of the second.

01:51:29   Yeah. They're all G3 iMacs. And this, oh, this idea of, of translucent plastic is a hit. Well,

01:51:36   yeah, let's do it in all the colors. I can't tell you how many people responded to it and said,

01:51:40   yeah, either I still have that poster or I did. And I wish I still had it. Walt Mossberg replied

01:51:46   to me on Threads that it was hanging in his office at the Wall Street Journal for years.

01:51:50   Just a, just a statement. Just yes, computers are fun. They're super fun. So let's make them look

01:51:58   like they're fun. Right. And the whole idea that let's just put everything you need in the box.

01:52:04   That's it. And cause every other computer, like it wasn't just that they were boring and beige.

01:52:08   It was that everything you needed for them, did you need another hard drive or an external drive

01:52:13   or this or that? It was either a tower that you took apart and God bless you with some of them

01:52:20   getting to the components, but putting them into drive bays and hooking things up inside and then

01:52:26   resealing the case. Or they were these external things that you stacked up on your desk and plugged

01:52:32   in and just including the modem as an internal component. It, it, it sounded, again, I think a

01:52:39   lot of the, the John Dvoraks of the world thought that was stupid. Why if people want a modem,

01:52:44   just buy the modem. It's not really safe, but it gave them, there's that poster that I love that

01:52:50   Yum visual poster of the five IMAX and the TV commercial that everyone remembers is the Jeff

01:52:57   Goldblum one. Right. No step three. And that is, that is, that is so jobs, right? And that is the

01:53:04   idea that you plug it in and then you plug your phone line in basically into the iMac or the iMac

01:53:09   into the phone line of the wall and you're on the internet. And the internet is the, is the also an

01:53:14   unsung hero of this transition because like I said earlier, this was at a time where windows is sort

01:53:20   of one, right? Like when the windows 95, they had kind of closed the gap as much as mattered to most

01:53:25   people in terms of the user interface, but the internet people wanted to just get on the internet.

01:53:30   They wanted an email. They wanted to see the web. They wanted online services and stuff like that.

01:53:35   And the iMac could be sold and that's why it had the I in the name, right? The iMac could be sold

01:53:40   as an internet appliance. It wasn't even like, does it run the program I run at my job or

01:53:44   something? It's like, yeah, you don't worry about that. You buy it, you plug it in these two things

01:53:49   and you're on the internet to do whatever things you can do to explore the internet. And that was

01:53:55   a moment where suddenly being the Mac, being a Mac and not a PC didn't matter. And that was,

01:54:02   I mean, how do you close the sale otherwise? If you're like, well, no, no, you can't buy an iMac

01:54:06   because it doesn't get you on the internet game over. But instead it was like, yeah, this is a

01:54:12   stylish little blob that you can put on a table in your house and plug in these two things and

01:54:17   you're on the internet. And that was super important to uptake of this product that it was not,

01:54:22   Oh, it's not compatible. It's scary. Cause max that's why people didn't buy max. Right? Number

01:54:28   one reason is that they weren't compatible with the rest of the world and they weren't compatible

01:54:32   with the internet. And for a lot of people in 1998, that is all that, Matt, they literally

01:54:36   weren't compatible with floppy disks. They took the same disks, but if you put a Mac

01:54:40   floppy disk in a PC, it would be unrecognized. Do you want to format or you want to format this disk

01:54:46   right? Exactly. And the Mac eventually grew to buy by necessity, grew to have the built-in ability to

01:54:53   read dos formatted fat 32 or fat 16, whatever the hell the format was floppy disks, but vice versa,

01:55:01   if it didn't go both ways, it w it wasn't compatible. So you couldn't even share a word

01:55:07   doc, even though I have word on my Mac and you have word on your PC and they could read the same

01:55:13   doc files or Excel files. If you, I couldn't put a floppy disk in your computer and have you read it.

01:55:18   So it was like, why am I even bothering with this? Right? Exactly. And I think that's one of the

01:55:22   reasons that goes to why the iMac doesn't even bother with writable storage is part of the

01:55:26   philosophy is like, look, you're not going to put things on a floppy disk. We're not going to do that

01:55:30   anymore. And they, they knew the writable disks were coming. Writable CD-ROMs are coming. You can

01:55:35   buy a USB floppy if you really wanted it, but they're like, no, no, no, no, no. Here's what

01:55:38   you're going to do. It's got built-in ethernet. So if you're in a network, you just do it that way

01:55:43   by file sharing. And otherwise it's got the modem. You're going to email that file. You're not going

01:55:48   to walk it somewhere on a floppy. You're going to either use ethernet or you're going to email it

01:55:54   because the internet is now what connects all of us. Right. Or if it was a story. Yeah. And,

01:55:59   and to go back to our graphic design print world work of the nineties, it had all moved to zip

01:56:07   drives at the time, which were just by, by those standards. I think they were like a hundred

01:56:12   megabytes. So they were like, yeah, it's like a, yeah. An order of magnitude better than a

01:56:16   floppy disk. Two, two orders of magnitude. It was like a hundred times bigger than, Oh, I guess

01:56:20   you're right. Yeah. Yeah. It just it's yeah. Roughly this amazing, right? Roughly the same

01:56:24   size as a floppy disk, but faster. Why do we still have the floppy? Why do we still have in

01:56:29   the answer was because you might have to boot from it. It's like, forget it. Right. Like you

01:56:33   boo from the CD rom drive and you'll like it. Right. It's like, okay, let's do this. Yeah. So

01:56:37   just brilliant. And that TV commercial, that was it. And people had this idea and it was true. It

01:56:42   was new, but how do I get on the internet? Well, Jeff Goldblum told you, you plug the

01:56:48   iMac into the wall for power and you plug the Mo the phone into the phone socket and,

01:56:53   Oh, that's it. There is no step three. That's it. No step. It was fantastic. And it really is true

01:56:59   that for all the different weird names where Apple does not like to explain what they mean,

01:57:04   what does the R in iPhone 10 R stand for? Well, you and I both, Oh, I always ask. And then they

01:57:11   never tell you. They're like, whatever they told us what the I stood for. The I stood for internet

01:57:16   it all of the products since the iPod, which is crazy because the iPod didn't have networking,

01:57:21   but it eventually silently without explanation stood to mean cool Apple product. I would ever

01:57:30   meant it was the cool thing from Apple, but with the iMac, the I stood for internet. And it

01:57:35   absolutely was part of the reason a huge part of the reason that Apple still exists to this day,

01:57:41   because in the early to mid nineties, all of the software Mojo was on the windows side.

01:57:48   All the Mac had left was the graphic design, print production stuff, and a dough to go back to Adobe

01:57:54   circle back two hours ago, all the whole Adobe suite moved to windows and stayed in parallel.

01:58:00   We could go off on a tangent about this, but like when Microsoft word six infamously shipped on the

01:58:06   Mac with a very windows style interface compared to word five, which was a beloved Mac app.

01:58:12   Mac users rejected it. And it took until office 98, speaking of 98 for the Mac to have, or Microsoft

01:58:21   to build the Mac business unit, the Mac BU that was dedicated to building Mac style versions of

01:58:27   the Microsoft apps. Windows users don't have tastes like that. So Adobe making Mac style

01:58:34   versions of Photoshop illustrator, whatever else was in the suite, windows users were like,

01:58:41   whatever it was good. It was, well, it was like a ice water in hell. It was a better style,

01:58:46   but if you were a Mac user used to Mac Photoshop and you had to use sit down in front of Photoshop

01:58:51   and windows, it was the one part of windows. You were like, Oh, everything's the same. All the

01:58:55   windows, all the menus are the same. The pallets are the same. The file formats are compatible.

01:59:00   So the best the Mac could do at the time was, Oh, well like the Adobe suite is available on both

01:59:06   and it's identical. But by the late nineties, all of the companies, you don't think of them as

01:59:13   software companies, but what was amazon.com? It's a website is software, right? I mean,

01:59:19   there's a hardware component to have the servers, but all the companies you had heard about these

01:59:23   companies like Yahoo and Amazon, some Stanford research project called Google that's coming out.

01:59:29   All of that stuff was on the web. And Bill Gates famously penned a memo where he kind of turned

01:59:35   the company around where Microsoft was in denial about the fact that the windows had Germany,

01:59:41   whatever, have you pronounced that word was kind of over the, the web was becoming the new universal

01:59:48   platform, even more universal than windows. Cause if when they tried to undermine it right with like

01:59:54   things that were plugins that only ran on windows and things like that, but it didn't,

01:59:57   it didn't work. It didn't take in the end. The, I came to represent Apple to the point where for

02:00:03   a while there, I think you could argue that the eye was the most important brand at Apple, not the

02:00:07   Apple logo, which is not what they wanted, but that's where they needed to. To start is like

02:00:12   iPod is named the way it is because they wanted to say the iMac that's cool. Well, this is too.

02:00:17   And they went and that's why we have the iPhone in the, and the iPad and the, I, today it's Apple

02:00:23   watch and Apple vision pro and all of that. But like, there was a time when Apple something was

02:00:28   not as impactful as I something, everything, even stuff that was all Mac that remained Mac only like

02:00:35   the eyesight camera, which is a brand they should I Cal it's just, it, it just was a prefix for Apple

02:00:42   that, you know, it clearly was something that Steve jobs believed in that seemingly the rest

02:00:51   of the company did not. I mean, I don't know who else, Johnny. But as soon as Steve jobs

02:00:58   died, they stopped shipping. I named products and, and while he was alive, everything, I mean,

02:01:03   famously when he introduced the iPhone, what are we going to call it? Yeah, that's right. iPhone.

02:01:07   Cause there was like in the speculation up to the release of the iPhone, somebody figured out Cisco

02:01:12   own a trademark, bizarrely for a product named iPhone and they worked it out. They paid them

02:01:18   off or whatever, but iPhone iPad, everything up until 2011 was I whatever. And then everything

02:01:26   afterwards I forget is I can't remember if there's literally cloud was, was jobs as last event. And

02:01:34   that was the introduction of iCloud. So I think, and I think the iCloud is the last product name

02:01:39   with the eye in front of it. I mean, and whether it's because the people left after he died,

02:01:44   didn't like it anymore, or I don't think it was quite like Phil Schiller was in there saying the

02:01:50   stupid I names got to go. This is dumb, Steve. And then he waited until they died or Johnny

02:01:54   or whatever, but maybe it might've been more that Steve was the one who didn't want to put Apple in

02:02:01   front of everything. I mean, famously there's a famous story about the original Mac before they

02:02:06   come up with the Cloverleaf logo for the command key. They were all apples, right? Cause from the

02:02:12   Apple two, there were two Apple keys. Yeah. Open Apple and closed Apple. Open Apple and closed

02:02:17   Apple. They're two different, two different Apple keys that were different modifiers,

02:02:23   early versions of the original system. One had it was Apple P for print and Apple S for save.

02:02:30   And Steve was like, there's too many Apple logos. We're abusing it. This is supposed to be the Apple

02:02:35   logo is precious, which is kind of right. So there'll be one, just one up in the upper left

02:02:40   corner of the Apple menu. That's it. And no more apples. So they had to invent Susan care came up

02:02:46   with the Cloverleaf from a, what was it like a park sign and yeah. In Scandinavia, somewhere in

02:02:52   Scandinavia, it was, but you know, maybe that mindset of, you know, we want to be precious

02:02:59   with using Apple was sort of what kept him on the eye names, but whatever it certainly worked out

02:03:04   for them to the point where people call the Apple watch the eye watch. Exactly. They, they it's true.

02:03:11   It's true. And, and yet now to go back to our, our Disney conversation, right? Apple today is not,

02:03:18   is, is back to being an iconic brand in a way that maybe it lost its way for a while. And now

02:03:24   they have, they made a dedicated choice to put Apple as the brand name up in the front that like,

02:03:30   literally, what is the watch that Apple makes? It's the Apple watch. Like you don't need another

02:03:36   name for it. It's just Apple watch. That's. And, and that's where they are now. And that,

02:03:42   that is they're, they're on top again. It's hard to imagine from the perspective of today,

02:03:47   how broken the Apple brand was in the nineties, but like, it was real broken to the point where

02:03:54   the iMac was became like more valuable as the iMac than it did as a thing from Apple. And so the iPod

02:04:01   logically was called iPod. And that's how they got people to try the Mac again was to love an

02:04:10   iPod so much that they thought, Hey, I love this Apple product. Maybe that computer they make,

02:04:16   maybe I should try that. I've never had one, but maybe I should try it. And they sold so many Macs

02:04:21   to people who fell in love with the Apple brand because they love their iPod so much. It's just

02:04:25   like that in the Apple store being making it easy to try a Mac and see it and see what you could

02:04:31   get out of it. That's how the rehab of that brand happened. It's hard to imagine now, but really

02:04:36   they had, they spent a good decade rehabbing the Apple brand, but now it's on top again.

02:04:42   I remember in 2000, 2001, I was living in suburban Boston when I worked at barebone software and

02:04:49   we used to go, my wife and I would go to the Rockingham mall where there was the closest Apple

02:04:54   store. And repeatedly I would hear people say in the mall, let's go to the iPod store.

02:04:59   Yeah, sure.

02:05:02   It was, well, obviously not 2000. That would be 2001, but 2001, 2002, I think 2002. Yeah. I lived

02:05:09   there until 2002.

02:05:10   But that, that all just, yeah, that, that happened, that happened and the iMac. Yeah. So in the end,

02:05:15   the iMac is funny because what the iMac represents is not maybe what you think,

02:05:21   like, cause it didn't lead to a, a huge cavalcade of standalone desktops that were what everybody

02:05:28   wanted. And it wasn't like brightly colored computers. Cause after the G3 iMac, they didn't

02:05:31   really do bright colored computers anymore until the M1, essentially they didn't do that. It didn't

02:05:38   even lead to, it didn't lead to brightly colored pro max. They did the one blue one and then they're

02:05:41   like, Nope, people don't like it. We're going to make them boring and gray. Like none of those

02:05:45   things are the, are the things that in the long run affected it. It's more like rehabbing the

02:05:50   Apple brand, giving them a cashflow so that they could do OS 10 and ultimately the iPad and then

02:05:55   continue on. And like, and the USB, like it's those weird kind of like choices that they made

02:06:02   that actually like are the demarcation line between like before and after those are the places

02:06:08   where it made its biggest impact. Yeah. And it exemplified that Steve jobs slash now just

02:06:14   institutional Apple mindset of we're not going to ask our users what they want and build based on

02:06:19   the polling. We're going to figure out what they want and, and build that. And nobody was saying,

02:06:25   get rid of all of my AD, all the ADB ports on your exciting new Mac so that none of my existing mice

02:06:30   and keyboards work without a peripheral and replace it with this thing. That's brand new. Nobody was

02:06:36   saying that, but it was the right decision. I got a note from somebody who used to work at Adobe

02:06:41   speaking, just calling back to an earlier part of the show and who got to know John Warnock as a

02:06:46   young, young intern at Adobe, who just had the gumption to, to ask, to have lunch with John

02:06:53   Warnock. And he said, sure. And, and gave him advice and it said, it said, what do you, what's

02:06:59   your top advice? And he said, here's my top advice. Don't ask people what they want, watch what they do

02:07:04   and then build something based on that. And again, that's the, that the I Mac exemplifies that,

02:07:11   right? Nobody was asking for pretty translucent blue plastic, but you know, people like things

02:07:18   that look fun. People like things. And USB has stood the test of time, right? I mean, the fact

02:07:24   is it's like, well, how are we ever, ever, ever going to get out from under Scuzzy and max serial

02:07:30   and ADB and the floppy drive? How are we ever going to do that? And the answer was the only

02:07:36   way we're going to do it is if we make people adopt the new standard. And so we're going to

02:07:41   just cut them off and Apple does that to this day. Right. I know it frustrates people, but like,

02:07:45   I, I understand the frustration, but I also almost always understand why Apple does it where they're

02:07:51   like, look, look, we could, we could stretch this out, but that doesn't make anybody happy. It just

02:07:56   stretches out the pain. So we're just going to make like, it's a, it's the dock connectors

02:07:59   going away and now it's lightning and that, and then we're about to enter probably the,

02:08:03   Oh, your iPhone doesn't use lightning anymore. It uses USB-C. It's like, okay. And the Mac don't

02:08:09   go into USB-C. It's like, Oh yeah, I know there's pain there, but like at some point trying to

02:08:14   create a long transition, just, just stretches out the pain and, and instead of just like,

02:08:20   let's do it, let's make the change. And you'll all thank us later. When you can't imagine going back

02:08:25   to the way it was. And the iMac was the most extreme example because 90s Apple was so

02:08:29   dysfunctional that they had done nothing to get rid of any of those three different peripheral

02:08:35   standards that had to be on every Mac. It's like, let's get it out of here. USB. That's it.

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02:11:51   talk show. Last but not least, man, and this is, man, we could go for another three hours talking

02:11:57   about the iPad. You wrote about your using the iPad as a travel computer. You just were down.

02:12:04   Your mom lives in Arizona, I believe, right? Yeah. Yeah. Outside of Phoenix. And I went through a

02:12:11   period of time when I tried really hard to not travel with a laptop and just travel with an

02:12:17   iPad. I love using my iPad. I'm not going to not travel without the iPad. I'm going to bring the

02:12:22   iPad. But I was like, do I really want to bring an iPad and a laptop on this? So I tried very hard

02:12:27   for, and wrote about it a lot and talked about it for many years to do the, when I go somewhere,

02:12:31   I'm just going to bring the iPad and the magic keyboard case, and I'm going to be able to do

02:12:36   my podcasts and write my articles and I'm going to make it happen. I'm going to figure out a way

02:12:39   to make it work. And ever since I got an Apple Silicon MacBook Air, basically, I don't do that

02:12:44   anymore. I travel with both again. I'm back to that. And I was down on a Friday morning at my

02:12:49   mom's house thinking I need to write something. And I, it was taken, literally I was in the shower

02:12:54   and I was like, oh, that's what I could write. I could write about the fact that I'm doing this now

02:12:58   is that's what happens. Sometimes you're like, oh, that's a piece. I'm going to write that up.

02:13:03   And, and I, it was really just sort of like trying to close the loop on like, well,

02:13:08   I tried this so, so hard for so long. Why did I stop trying? And, and it has been interpreted

02:13:14   was at the top of hacker news. People were sending me messages. I mastered on you write about any of

02:13:19   this and you're going to get the people who are like, how dare you, sir. And you're going to get

02:13:22   the people who are like, why did you even try to use an iPad? Because it's silly. And the truth is

02:13:28   I, I liked the idea of only traveling with one of those devices. I tried very hard and I have come

02:13:34   to the con the Apple Silicon MacBook Air is so good and it's so small and it, and it's so flexible.

02:13:40   And I decided as many of our colleagues have done David Sparks, I think is a really good example of

02:13:47   this. I've decided I'm done trying to push the iPad where Apple doesn't seem to want it to go.

02:13:56   I was pushing it before. And now I think I've just decided I will accept the iPad for what it is. I

02:14:03   still write articles on my iPad in that keyboard case or in a stand with an external keyboard

02:14:09   at my, in my kitchen. Like I like it as a change of pace. I like traveling with it, but I'm going

02:14:16   to stop doing things like, like if I want to use a, like the stream deck doesn't work with it. And

02:14:22   I use that for a lot of automation stuff and it's got shortcuts, which is great, but it doesn't do

02:14:27   like global keyboard shortcuts for automation. So that's a frustration. And then the podcasting

02:14:32   thing while I know esoteric, cause most people aren't podcasters is emblematic in a way of like,

02:14:36   there is a fundamental thing that I need that the Mac does and the iPad just can't do it. And I can

02:14:43   work around it or I can just give up and say, am I recording a podcast on this trip? I went to

02:14:47   Colorado with my family for a family, for an event with like all of Lauren's family being there. And

02:14:54   I had one podcast to do, and you know what I did? I brought the MacBook Air and a microphone. I opened

02:14:59   the MacBook Air one time, recorded the podcast, posted it, closed the MacBook Air and that was it.

02:15:03   But I like, I just decided that was easier. It was just easier to do it that way. So I did it that

02:15:08   way. So I, I, for me, it's more like I, I, I tried to make the iPad more than it was. And then I

02:15:16   realized I should stop, right? I should just stop and accept it for what it is. And I love it for

02:15:21   what it is, but like, if I want flexibility, if I want to be able to do sort of like anything I want

02:15:27   to do, I should just have a Mac for that because that's what the Mac is great at.

02:15:32   - It's the most confounding platform in the history of computers. It really is. And I used to,

02:15:39   I used to roll, I rolled my eyes for years and even talked to people in iPad product marketing.

02:15:46   And I mean, I'm not, I'm not a, never, it's always collegial having briefings with, with Apple folks,

02:15:52   but renaming iPad OS instead of just saying that it runs iOS. Cause it really it's, they're

02:15:59   obviously siblings in a very tight way, but I'm, I'm down with it. I, I, I agree that it it's,

02:16:06   it's worth its own name. It is different. It is, it is not a big iPhone, even though it's kind of

02:16:12   a big iPhone, right? It makes it so hard to pin. The Mac is, is a PC. It is a full blown computer,

02:16:22   a Unix workstation, and you can compile software on it and you can still do things, even with the

02:16:30   things people worried wouldn't make the transition to Apple Silicon, like turning off system

02:16:35   integrity protection, if you really want to, so that you can go and inspect and tweak and replace

02:16:41   pieces of the system software, you can still do stuff like that. Like stuff that nobody in

02:16:46   their wildest dreams imagines Apple's ever going to do with the iPad, right? There is no system

02:16:50   integrity protection toggle for, for the iPad. And I don't think there should be, you know what it is

02:16:58   and you know what the iPhone is. It's a phone and yes, people are frustrated and we'll see what

02:17:02   happens with EU seemingly forcing Apple's regulatory hand with sideloading. We'll see where that goes.

02:17:10   I know people have been frustrated that you can't, if you choose toggle a switch so that you can just

02:17:16   install apps from the web if you want with a, you know, hopefully appropriate warning, but you know

02:17:25   what the iPhone is. It still is very well defined where it fits in people's lives and people can

02:17:31   quibble with the design decisions Apple have made on where to draw those limits. But the iPad

02:17:36   straddles all of it. It's, it is, you can look at it and say that it's so close to being Mac like

02:17:43   that it should just be more Mac like, and you can also see that what so many zillions, zillions,

02:17:50   uncountable number of iPad thriving users who love it just love that it for them really is like a,

02:17:58   just a big, big, big, maybe even 12.9 inch iPhone. And that's what they love about it.

02:18:06   Eric Michael Rhodes I think, I think there's so much mixed up here too, because I strongly suspect,

02:18:12   and I do not have a lot of detail about this, but I strongly suspect that Apple at one point assumed

02:18:21   that they were putting the Mac out to pasture and they were going to do minimal effort on the Mac.

02:18:25   It was going to be a legacy platform and they were going to build the new Mac like platform

02:18:32   on the iPad. That was what they were going to do. And I think they changed direction and they said,

02:18:38   you know what, we're not going to do that. I suspect even it might've been the moment where

02:18:41   they decided they were actually going to do Apple Silicon for the Mac, right? Because they would've

02:18:45   been very easy for them to put the Mac out to pasture and just kind of take Intel chips and

02:18:49   let it kind of fade away. And I think at some point, and I, one day, I hope somebody will tell

02:18:54   me this for true, but it feels like Apple went from thinking that the iPad was the future of

02:19:00   computing and that this would be the next generation computing platform, general purpose,

02:19:05   to saying, no, it'll be the Mac. We're going to stick with the Mac and we're going to make,

02:19:11   we're going to import and they did stuff, right? It's like, we're going to do catalyst and we're

02:19:15   going to let Apple Silicon Macs run iPad apps and we're going to do all this stuff. So like

02:19:20   it can pick up the iPad and pieces of the iPad. What we're not going to do is sort of like put it

02:19:26   on an island and make the iPad do Mac things. It's more like we're going to let the Mac be more

02:19:31   iPad-y at times, which is why when there's rumors like that rumor that Mark Gurman had at one point

02:19:37   about like a touchscreen iMac, I started to think if now I believe that if Apple ever does something

02:19:42   that looks like an iPad, but, but does Mac like things, it will literally be a Mac that has a

02:19:49   compatibility mode, not an iPad that has been tricked out with a terminal, right? I just don't,

02:19:57   it feels like that was a place they weren't going. And at some point they said, we're not going to go

02:20:02   there. We're going to keep the iMac or the iPad a little bit purer and more iPhone-like with more

02:20:09   capability, but like purer and the Mac is where anything can happen. And like they, I don't know

02:20:16   when 2017, 16, I don't know when, but like the rhetoric changed about the iPad. I'm sure the Mac

02:20:25   round table, you know? Yeah. And then there was a moment that I'm sure they actually regret now in

02:20:30   2018, where they pointed out that the iPad pro is faster than 90% of all PC laptops that sold in the

02:20:35   last year. Like that. I think they, I think they regret that because they were like calling it out,

02:20:40   like look at, look at the computing prowess of the iPad and like, but that's actually not where

02:20:46   they're, where they're going. Cause now that's the Apple Silicon argument, but it's not the iPad

02:20:50   argument anymore. Right. And I remember for years, I was never obsessed with benchmarks.

02:20:55   I'm glad that other reviewers are, but it's just not my vein. I'm not good at it. And I'm just not

02:21:01   as obsessed with it. But there were a series of years where I remember not just with iPads,

02:21:06   but even iPhones where I was just vaccinated watching geek bench, single core scores, approach

02:21:14   high-end MacBook pros. And it was very clear they were going to pass it. It was, it was clear. And

02:21:21   I remember writing about it and people would be like, you're crazy. There's no way a phone is

02:21:24   ever going to get a better single. And I'm like, look at the, look at the, the, the slope of these

02:21:29   graphs. It is absolutely going to happen. And then it did happen. And yet the back still didn't move.

02:21:35   I think you're right. I remember you talking about this on this show and I've come more around to

02:21:41   your argument. You know, you're obviously more iPad power usery than I am. I mean, it's, it's

02:21:47   obvious from all of your, our combined writing. I, there's something almost broken in my brain

02:21:57   in the way that my brain is melded with the Mac way of doing certain things. And it would have,

02:22:03   I think, and I think I was in denial about it, to be honest, I think because I would have found it,

02:22:09   if that's the way things had turned out, it would have been much more difficult for me to adjust.

02:22:14   But I think in hindsight, I think it is true. And I don't think it was ever

02:22:18   a spelled out plan. Like this is there's a cohesive roadmap for where, what year

02:22:26   vaguely the Mac will go away and the iPad will grow to replace it. And there will be

02:22:32   iMac style 27 inch things running iPad OS or whatever, whatever else it would take for the iPad

02:22:38   platform to have fully obviated the Mac. I think it was more vague and it was just sort of it like,

02:22:48   like one of those gnomes stealing underpants plans, right? Where it's like, the Mac is old,

02:22:54   right? It dates back to 1984 on the Mac, the Apple side and 1988 or 89 on the next side.

02:23:02   And Mac, even Mac OS X, by the time the iPad came out was a decade old. And it's, it's,

02:23:10   it just, I think just sort of a gut feeling of something this old should be replaced by

02:23:17   something new. And this iPad clearly had so much potential, right? Just the first one you're looking

02:23:22   at and you're like, and as much as that first one really was just a big iPhone, it's like,

02:23:27   this is so rich with potential. I just, I always say, I just remember that first

02:23:33   hands-on for the very first original iPad, me and Dan Morin were the last two media people who

02:23:41   really got, we practically literally got kicked out of the hands-on area. Because, and we were

02:23:47   over by the one that had the keyboard. Remember the original keyboard? It was a weird-

02:23:51   Yeah, keyboard dock.

02:23:52   Yeah.

02:23:53   And vertical keyboard dock.

02:23:54   Yeah. A vertical keyboard dock. And it's the fact they had the keyboard dock obviously arranged and

02:23:59   it was a late, famously, there were plans until very late in the game that they were going to have

02:24:05   two ports on the iPad, one the long way and one the skinny way. And there'd be two 30 pin connectors

02:24:10   so that you could connect it to the keyboard dock either way. But we were just sitting there in

02:24:16   front of this iPad, which, you know, seemingly we were, I remember talking with Dan about it. Like,

02:24:22   it seems like you ought to be able to put it the other way. You know, like we were just like,

02:24:27   this is amazing. Right? They have, they always have like a dummy Johnny Appleseed, 1963 at

02:24:32   mac.com. If you could send emails and try everything out, it's like, this is a real

02:24:37   computer. This is not a phone. And you hook it up to this keyboard. And they didn't have trackpad

02:24:42   support for almost 10 years. Right. Or it was 10 years. But even without it, just reaching out and

02:24:47   touching the screen, it was like the, the potential is so rich. And I just feel like it was just like

02:24:53   a gut feeling. Like, of course, this is going to grow to make the Mac seem so old and antiquated

02:25:01   that this will be the bright future. And just like I said, like a gnomes eating underpants,

02:25:06   this is new, the Mac is old, dot, dot, dot, profit. And then when it really came time in the middle of

02:25:14   the teens for that to prove true, and it had to be a cohesive roadmap, I kind of feel like they

02:25:22   looked at it and are like, there is no, there's no path to get there. Right. Like to keep the iPad,

02:25:26   the iPad, we're not going to have a Unix subsystem under the hood that's exposed to users,

02:25:33   but without this Unix subsystem exposed to users under the hood, how in the world is Xcode ever

02:25:38   going to work? How are we going to build their operating systems? Yeah. I don't even want to say

02:25:42   they took their foot off the gas, but it does feel like they recalibrated. Cause I do think that like

02:25:47   the change that they made to files and adding external display support last year and stage

02:25:53   manager, but also like the magic keyboard and the trackpad support, like they did a lot of this

02:25:57   stuff to make it more Mac-like. And I think the question is, was that part of a more cohesive

02:26:03   strategy to advance the platform or not? I think, I think in the end, what you say is right, which

02:26:10   is the Mac going to Apple Silicon, it gains a lot of benefit. It also gains the software platform,

02:26:17   right? It, the Mac Apple Silicon Mac can run if allowed. And that's an issue where a lot of people

02:26:22   don't allow it, but like it will run iPad apps. It just runs them. Right. And it's fine. Like I,

02:26:27   the MLB app just runs on my Mac. Right. And there is not a Mac app for MLB. It just runs on my Mac

02:26:33   and that's great. Right. And, and that seems to be what they've decided is we're going to unify

02:26:38   instead of unifying, like on iOS, we're going to keep Mac OS around, but they did the, they did

02:26:43   the work to take all the low level stuff and get it to be aligned across all the platforms. Cause

02:26:48   they had both, they had drifted apart and that allowed them to do catalyst, but it also allows

02:26:53   them with Apple Silicon to just run those apps on there. And you can see you're sort of like

02:26:57   building up this whole layer, which is why I said earlier at this point, if I'm Apple and I'm like

02:27:02   intrigued by the idea of something that's more like a convertible laptop, something that could

02:27:07   be touch and maybe thinner. I don't think you would build, like, I don't think there's a facility

02:27:14   to build all that stuff into the iPad. Like the iPad is the iPad. The Mac is the superset. Right.

02:27:21   So you would take the iPad and say, Oh, when you fold the keyboard back, it becomes an iPad.

02:27:27   That's what you'd say. You wouldn't say, right. Enter Mac mode on your iPad. You'd say your Mac

02:27:32   can be an iPad sometimes, but it's still a Mac and it runs the same apps on either side. That's

02:27:39   how you would, that's how you would have to do it. And I'm not saying they will do that. I'm just

02:27:43   saying that it's another indicator of my progression of sort of like how I view where Apple

02:27:49   is taking these platforms that I just don't think that Apple is, is looking at the iPad and saying,

02:27:54   one day the iPad will do everything that people look to the Mac to do. And then the Mac won't be

02:28:00   relevant anymore. I just don't think, I don't think they believe that. No, I don't think so either.

02:28:04   I mean, and one of the tests is for a real computer is can you use the computer to make

02:28:11   software for the computer? Right. And we go back to the original Mac in 1984, you couldn't write

02:28:17   Mac software on an original Mac. You had to have a Lisa. And when the Lisa was, I don't know,

02:28:23   everybody complained that the Mac was too expensive and the Lisa was, I don't know,

02:28:26   like $10,000. And that did not last long. Macintosh programmers workshop came out pretty

02:28:32   quickly thereafter. And I never used the Lisa. I don't know about you, but I don't know, speaking

02:28:36   of computers, I never saw. It didn't take long for the Mac to bootstrap itself to be able to

02:28:42   write Mac software on a Mac. And Playgrounds feels like it might eventually be essentially

02:28:48   an iOS app only Xcode. Right. It could be right there. And there's, you can take like a Playgrounds

02:28:54   project from iPad and import it into Xcode now. And it gets to some of those things with the

02:29:01   pro AV apps, the logic and Final Cut. Right. Where now they finally, and I think it was

02:29:07   a justifiable finally, have real professional versions of Final Cut and logic for the iPad.

02:29:14   And you can, which one, one's more of a, the Final Cut is more of a subset of on the Mac,

02:29:21   but you can still go from the iPad to the Mac, even if you can't always go from the

02:29:25   Mac back to the iPad. And Playgrounds is sort of like that, but even then it's only for making iPad

02:29:31   style apps. Right? Like you can't imagine writing Mac apps and Apple doesn't just write apps on the

02:29:38   Mac. They write the operating systems, they write the firmware for them. What, what computers do

02:29:42   you think write the firmware that runs the AirPod Pro 2 noise cancellation? They do that on the Mac,

02:29:48   right? You'd have to be able to write all that software. It's it just, I do. I think I,

02:29:55   I kind of feel like in the early PC era, platforms came and went every couple of years. Nothing,

02:30:04   if you were lucky, if you got a full generation, like the Commodore 64, which had, I don't know,

02:30:10   six or seven years of prime time life and things like the Apple 2 platform had a

02:30:17   over a decade long run of relevance, but then went away and it was just understood that

02:30:23   platforms died after a decade or so replaced by something new. And the Mac and Windows were these

02:30:32   two things that came out of that era and seemingly had instead of a decade, decades. But I still think

02:30:40   a lot of people of our generations just sort of had an assumption, but they're going to come to

02:30:43   an end eventually, right? Then we're not going to be using Macs forever, but I kind of feel now

02:30:48   we are. I don't, I don't foresee in, I think 25 years from now, there's still going to be a Mac.

02:30:55   I really do at this point. I wouldn't have said that 10 or 15 years ago.

02:30:59   The, when I talked to Phil Schiller, maybe the last time I did a one-on-one with Phil Schiller

02:31:11   was for the 25th anniversary of the Mac, I think. And it was Phil and Jaws and I forget who else was

02:31:20   in, was there, but it was a time where I basically said, do you foresee the Mac kind of fading away

02:31:29   with these other products there? And he could have done the PR thing, right? And what he said was the

02:31:36   Mac goes on forever. That's what he said. The Mac goes on forever. Not you never know. It was the

02:31:44   Mac goes on forever. And I think about that from time to time, because there was a moment where I,

02:31:48   like I said, I was like, I'm not sure the Mac goes on forever. And now I think maybe the Mac goes on

02:31:53   forever. I think maybe that is essentially that, that either that or the iPad and Apple's platforms

02:32:00   and the vision pro and all of that will evolve and keep evolving at this pace where at some point,

02:32:08   then there will be that more natural death where you'll realize that actually everything I use my

02:32:15   Mac for now, I can do on those systems. And they've evolved to the point where it's irrelevant

02:32:21   that the Mac, right? Cause like, it's very rare that a thing that you love, you're talking about

02:32:25   when Apple was maybe going out of business and we're all horrified by it. It's very rare that

02:32:29   a thing that is used and loved is just the plug is pulled while everybody's using it and they scream.

02:32:34   Right. What happens is what happens is it becomes irrelevant. So when it finally dies, nobody cares

02:32:40   anymore except collectors and some aficionados, but like everybody else has sort of moved on. So

02:32:46   it's like, I can't imagine like when I stopped using a TiVo, it was like, Oh, I love TiVo. I

02:32:50   did. But by the time I dumped my TiVo, it was irrelevant because everything was streaming at

02:32:56   that point. I had given, I wasn't using it anymore. That's the more likely tech irrelevance for the

02:33:01   Mac would be that all these other Apple platforms have reached the point where you don't need the

02:33:05   Mac. Oh, they all do all those things. It turns out that I'm not using the Mac for those things

02:33:09   anymore. And that's when it ends. I still use a TiVo, but that's really, we'd have to get my

02:33:13   wife on to explain why I could, I could switch to doing everything through the Apple TV box, but

02:33:19   iPod would be a perfect example of that. Right? There were no riots when Apple sold the last iPod.

02:33:25   I mean, again, because it had become irrelevant by that deep, deep, deep affinity for some of the

02:33:30   models, people collect them and people love them. And, and there's a part I know. And I know the,

02:33:35   the oddest one was the hard drive based ones that had the biggest storage, right? Because they were

02:33:40   like professional DJs who were like, I need to store like 80 gigabytes of music on a thing. And I

02:33:46   used to show up at a wedding with this pack of cards. And now what am I supposed to do again?

02:33:50   I got to take a whole laptop, but yeah, it, I think people sort of had that idea. And I think,

02:33:55   I think the Mac is, is I really do. I think it's here forever. I think it has a longer future than

02:34:00   the iPad ahead of it. I really do. You mentioned vision pro last thing I want. I'm so glad you did.

02:34:06   Cause the one thing I wanted to mention was talking about this for travel and framing it in

02:34:10   the perspective of, well, what do you put in your backpack or your briefcase to go on a trip? Right?

02:34:16   Do you take the iPad and the Mac book to me? That's the thing that the, the elephant in the room is

02:34:23   the vision headsets. And I'd say just vision headsets because there's clearly the $3,500

02:34:31   vision pro that comes out early next year is not the only one that's going to exist.

02:34:36   Let's blast fast forward three or four years. And there's a vision non-pro that's only $1,500

02:34:42   or whatever it, and it is, it turns out that as I think is going to be true, it's going to be a

02:34:48   phenomenal device to use while you're sitting on an airplane or a train and a phenomenal device

02:34:55   to sit at a hotel room at a desk and sort of catch up on stuff on a virtual big screen.

02:35:01   One thing about if you're taking a Mac book, especially a Mac book air, but you know,

02:35:08   even if it's a Mac book pro and an iPad with you, they both pack flat. And yes, it is. I, I,

02:35:15   I don't know why I obsess over the extra weight of my 11 inch iPad, but I do. And I think I should

02:35:22   leave it at home, save my shoulders a little bit of wear and tear the vision pro I think is

02:35:26   something or vision headsets is something I'm going to want to take with me on most

02:35:31   trips. If it's like overnight length, maybe not like a day trip to New York, but overnight type

02:35:37   trips is inherently going to be a pain in the ass to travel with packing wise, right? Because

02:35:44   no matter you saw it in person, and even if for everybody out there listening, who still hasn't

02:35:48   seen one in person, let alone tried one, it's, you know, you can just look at it. It doesn't pack

02:35:55   flat. So where do you put it? It's, it's like taking a big over the ear head headphones instead

02:36:01   of just earbuds it's takes some strategy. There's no way I feel like that's a breaking point for the,

02:36:10   Hey, do I take my iPad and Mac book? If you're also going to take a vision pro all of a sudden

02:36:16   now it's like, what am I taking a whole Apple store with me?

02:36:18   Yeah. And, and what it sounds like, basically you'd be able to run anything you'd run on your

02:36:25   iPad on a vision pro, but vision pro at least this initial version, the way it does,

02:36:31   it's Mac compatibility is it is doing screen sharing. So you would, what basically you'd

02:36:37   bring up, you'd have to bring a Mac with you. I do wonder in the long run, and this goes back

02:36:41   to the iPad as well. Like I do wonder at some point if Apple says, you know what?

02:36:45   Mac, the ultimate solution to the Mac OS is that is emulation is a virtual machine or virtualization.

02:36:53   And that, that first off M M2 iPad pro, like it could run Mac iOS in a virtual machine if it

02:37:02   wanted to. And that would be the answer to my iPad is not as functional as the Mac would be.

02:37:06   We'll just run Mac iOS on it when you want to. And then you got it and it's not a Mac,

02:37:11   but it'll, it'll virtualize it. I don't know if Apple will ever do that. But when I look at the

02:37:16   vision pro, I think surely they're not going to say you always must bring a Mac with you

02:37:23   in order to use Mac software. I surely the long game there is that it can be a Mac too,

02:37:31   right? Just running again in virtualization, Apple Silicon, it's all the same. And that would be

02:37:37   really interesting if I didn't have to bring a MacBook air with me, literally just so that I

02:37:43   could open it up and then have it pop up into the vision pro. And with 10 more years, just to pick

02:37:49   an even number of increases in performance in Apple Silicon, CPU, single core, multi-core,

02:37:57   10 more years of the natural expansion of levels of Ram and memory and what's available, what a,

02:38:05   what the computer in a, in one of these devices can do in its spare cycles. It, I like you said,

02:38:12   if an iPad could already clearly, if Apple technically allowed it run a virtualized Mac OS,

02:38:19   well, it's clearly vision pro probably could right now. And if not, it certainly will within

02:38:27   a handful of years, let alone 10 years. So yeah, I could see that I could see a future where the

02:38:33   forever Mac is purely software. I really, it's a virtual, it's a virtual machine that can run

02:38:40   sort of wherever you want. And, and, and that, yeah, I, I, I have that thought too, that, that

02:38:47   in the end, like every now and then I see people like version writers really like to write about

02:38:51   that Samsung decks thing where you plug a Samsung phone into a monitor and it's sort of a weird

02:38:55   desktop computer. And it's like in the grand scheme of things, like use a 10 years out, or

02:39:00   is it unreasonable that every Apple product can be any Apple product? If you, if you put it in the

02:39:07   right context, maybe, and vision pro seems to be especially the product that could do that right.

02:39:12   Where it's sort of like, it is a virtual reality product. So if you say, I want a Mac right here

02:39:19   on this empty desk in the long run, shouldn't vision pro be able to put a Mac on that empty

02:39:25   desk? I think it should right in the, in the end. And it'll, if it's, if it's all virtualized inside

02:39:30   Apple Silicon, I don't see why not other than wanting to sell a vision pro user an additional

02:39:37   Mac, but you know, I don't know in the end, if that's the right thing for the product to do,

02:39:41   I think Apple will let it do. Yeah, I do too. And I think, and I think it gets around a lot of the,

02:39:46   I don't know how to describe them, but the objections that Apple has internally to allowing

02:39:55   Mac like things on iPhones and iPads and whatever, that they're not going to give you

02:40:00   Unix subsystem access to the actual file system on an iPad or iPhone. But if it's all virtualized,

02:40:06   it's just in an app. It's not, you'd still have Unix. You'd still have all the command line stuff

02:40:10   you want, but you'd only be diddling with the virtual internals of the virtual Mac with no

02:40:17   access or connection to the actual literal physical computer that this is running on.

02:40:23   And that satisfies Apple's design goals for keeping these generations of devices

02:40:31   newer than the Mac completely sealed off from the user being able to touch them for, for good

02:40:39   reasons, but with bad trade-offs it's there are reasons both ways, but virtualizing it solves

02:40:45   those problems. It really does. So I kind of feel like that's the ultimate solution.

02:40:49   Yeah. And I certainly would love, I mean, that would solve my travel problem. If I could just

02:40:54   a virtual machine of Mac iOS on an iPad when I need it and then shut it back down again,

02:40:58   I'm not saying they will do that, but that would solve a lot of my problems. If my product,

02:41:02   if I'm bringing a keyboard and trackpad case along with me, anyway, I could, I could fake it in a Mac

02:41:08   app for a while and then just get rid of it and go back to using my iPad. But there are all those

02:41:13   arguments are like, why don't, but they they'll sell me both. So they make more money. It's like,

02:41:17   yeah, I know in the short term, but in the long term, I think it's worth thinking about that

02:41:20   moment where like all these Apple platforms are all capable of running virtually on all,

02:41:25   it's all the same hardware essentially, right? Like a MacBook air and an iPad pro that are

02:41:29   running them too. They are not that different. Those two computers are not very different.

02:41:34   And so at that point you can almost mix and match and just say like run, run whatever, wherever.

02:41:39   And, and the vision pro of all of them is like every, I think everything will be virtualizable

02:41:45   inside the vision pro eventually. Cause that's the whole point of it is just create a, it's not

02:41:50   hardware, it's virtual hardware on demand. I would think that it would definitely get there in the

02:41:54   next 10 years. Right. And actually turns the portable Mac experience into something superior

02:42:00   because right even right now, I mean, again, we did not get to try the Mac, Mac virtual display

02:42:07   in the demos they gave out at WWDC, but talking to people at Apple who've used it, it is by their

02:42:14   accounts, not like marketing people, but engineering type people. It's really good and usable and

02:42:20   credible on this first generation one, three quarters of a year before it actually ships

02:42:26   future ones, it's going to be great, but you'll have not just a 4k display like this one's

02:42:31   promising, but you know, six or eight K displays eventually no problem. Right. I mean, there's no

02:42:37   doubt in my mind that like a five year from now vision pro is going to be able to simulate like

02:42:41   a giant 8k display in front of you that if it, and if it's the only thing you take in your backpack,

02:42:48   wow, now you're traveling lighter, I guess, except for the battery packs, you'll need to take me out.

02:42:54   But you know, still you'll probably save, it's probably going to weigh less than a MacBook pro,

02:42:59   but you'll have a giant virtual display. So the future is bright, but I do think that it will

02:43:05   in the near term next year and the year after it's, it's definitely going to change people's

02:43:11   hey, what do I take with me when I go on this trip? I think you're right. I, and I don't know

02:43:17   what my answer to that is. No, I don't want, I don't know what mine will be either. I,

02:43:21   it's just one of those things where I'm like, well, I need to, I need to actually have one

02:43:25   and live with it. I can't just go by marketing materials or a pack can 30 minute demo. I love

02:43:30   that I got to have it. I love to talk about it. I still think about it. It kind of haunts me that I

02:43:35   only got those sweet, sweet 30 minutes with it. Yeah. But I don't draw any conclusions from it.

02:43:40   It's everything is different when you use it for real. Anyway, Jason, it's always good to have you

02:43:46   on, even if it's a brief show like this one. Yeah. They can all be marathon. Sometimes we've got to

02:43:51   cut it short, certain sweet Titan bright. We got, we, we it's like Bob Barker got to 99. Didn't go

02:43:58   over. We got to buy my count here two 52, but we didn't go over the three minute mark. So we win.

02:44:03   Yeah. This isn't like, this is Marco Arment or a star Wars talk here. We don't go over three hours.

02:44:09   That's the forget that we're staying right under there. Titan bright.

02:44:12   Did you remember as a kid, you go back to the prices, right? With the, in the, in the showcase

02:44:17   showdown, when you got to be the fourth person and you you'd have the lucky option. If you thought

02:44:22   everybody else overbid, you could go $1. And remember when you knew that that was obviously

02:44:27   the right strategy and then somebody wouldn't do it screaming at the television. I mean,

02:44:34   I have that when nobody knows the answer in final jeopardy and I know it's exactly the same feeling.

02:44:38   Right. It was just like, come on guys, come on. How is it that I know this and you don't? Right.

02:44:42   I would have zero chance of winning on jeopardy or qualifying on jeopardy. I'm way, I think way

02:44:47   too slowly. And I don't even know enough trivia, but whatever trivia I know, I'm not fast. Like

02:44:53   our friend Glenn, who actually is jeopardy player champion champion winner. But when I know the

02:45:00   answer, I know it's bad. If they don't know it, it doesn't make me angry. Anyway. Thank you, Jason.

02:45:06   Everybody of course can follow you at six colors.com and you always, even when you do write at

02:45:12   unusual places like the verge or your weekly regular Mac world column, it's always linked to

02:45:17   from six colors, right? The upgrade with Mike Hurley, fantastic podcasts, always, always worn

02:45:25   out episodes on my podcast player. Thank you. And the incomparable network chock full of pop culture

02:45:32   goodness. What else do, what else do you have? Those are the, I think biggest highlights. I'm

02:45:37   believe it or not. I'm actually on Mac break weekly with Leo Laporte every Tuesday with Andy

02:45:42   and Iko, who I have been working with for like 30 years now. So how do you do it? I don't understand

02:45:47   how you do it. I don't understand. I don't know either. I just don't think about it. It's like

02:45:53   violet coyote. You just run off the edge of the cliff and don't look down.

02:45:57   Me I'm a looker downer. Thank you, Jason. Thanks, John.