The Talk Show

386: ‘Gate Number Two’, With John Moltz


00:00:00   Well, John, it's as I like to call it, iPhone gate season. Yeah, we haven't had a good one in a while.

00:00:06   What was the best iPhone gate? It might have been... Oh, antenna. Oh, antenna gate. Antennagate. Yeah,

00:00:11   I forgot. That's the king. That's the king of all gates. Yeah. Yeah, because they, I mean, they

00:00:16   literally had us fly out. That was... When the PR response is, "Can you come to California by

00:00:23   tomorrow morning?" Yes, it's a bad gate. Was it that fast? Was it... Yeah, and it rapidly,

00:00:33   as I recall, and I don't... Well, it's a podcast, so I guess I can be quoted. Yeah, really.

00:00:40   As I recall, it was like around Wednesday, and somebody at Apple PR called me and sort of gave

00:00:49   me their preliminary... Well, let's just say spin. We've looked into this. There's an issue with the

00:00:56   attenuation when your skin and blah, blah, blah. And they were like, "We might be having a thing.

00:01:01   Keep your schedule open. We'll let you know." And then it was like by Thursday, and I think the

00:01:06   press conference was a Friday morning, and they were like, "I think we're gonna have an event

00:01:10   tomorrow morning." And I was like, "Oh." And I looked for flights. As I recall even, it wasn't

00:01:17   even a middle row seat. It was sort of a... I got an exit or a aisle seat, and next 90 minutes later,

00:01:24   I'm at the airport flying out to California. But it was worth it. It was the most extraordinary

00:01:28   press event I've ever been at. Also, it was the one where I got... I think it was the first time...

00:01:34   Well, they don't really take questions and answers anymore. And if you'll recall, at the end of it,

00:01:40   it was Jobs and... Oh, I want to say Phil Schiller and Tim Cook.

00:01:48   They can be Phil Schiller for sure, but...

00:01:50   But maybe Big Bob was out there too. It might have been all four. What was Bob's last name?

00:01:56   It's Mansfield.

00:01:57   Bob Mansfield. I think it might have been... And Tim Cook maybe was the guy who wasn't there. Maybe

00:02:01   it was Bob Mansfield and Jobs and Schiller, but maybe Cook. But what I remember was it was in the...

00:02:09   I say the old town hall, but they know they still use that. They just don't really use it for outside

00:02:14   media. I know there were Apple employees who watched the iPhone event there, because there's

00:02:19   still tons of Apple employees who work at Infinite Loop. I mean, it's still... The old campus is still

00:02:25   completely full because they've increased their headcount. They talked about the attenuation.

00:02:30   They showed their video of people squeezing other phones and watching the bars go down.

00:02:38   And they announced that they were going to give away their bumpers for free with everybody who

00:02:44   bought an iPhone 4, just in case you needed it. And I... I'm looking at the... There's a YouTube

00:02:49   video of it. And I'm trying to see if it shows who else is there. It's mostly just Jobs on stage.

00:02:56   Yeah. And then at the end was the Q&A, and I think they had some stools out.

00:03:00   Yeah. And I don't think this video has that part of it.

00:03:03   No. Well, maybe not.

00:03:05   It's a half an hour. I mean, it's Jobs talking for like a half an hour about this problem.

00:03:08   Yeah. Yeah. And... But they... When they asked questions, I raised my hand. And...

00:03:13   Because I was thinking like, "Well, does this thing with the free bumpers mean they're implying

00:03:17   you're supposed to use a bumper?" And so I asked, "Do any of you guys use a case or a bumper with

00:03:22   your iPhones?" And they all had them in their pockets and took them out, and they were all

00:03:27   uncased. And it was a nice little laugh in the audience. And they were like, "No, we don't...

00:03:32   You don't need to use a case. We don't use cases. These are our personal iPhones."

00:03:35   And then they stopped taking questions for 20 years.

00:03:38   I don't know why...

00:03:43   And I think the pandemic helped them, right? I mean...

00:03:45   Yeah.

00:03:45   Not that it was happening before that anyway, but the fact that they switched to videos,

00:03:49   now they just have a captive audience. It's not...

00:03:53   Yeah. But that was a good one. But that's a weird one too. Because the other thing too, and I always...

00:03:59   But that one at least, there was a real problem, right?

00:04:00   Yes. It really was a problem where if you did hold the iPhone 4 the wrong way,

00:04:05   you could lose the signal. So if you were at four bars, you'd be fine because you'd go down to two

00:04:12   bars. But if you were already at one or two bars, you might lose your signal completely.

00:04:16   And I remember trying that. I remember testing it in my hand and going, "Yeah, I can see it happen."

00:04:22   Yeah. Well, but the thing that's so funny about it is some people remember it as being a real

00:04:26   issue that it was like a dud iPhone or whatever. But the iPhone 4 was the longest selling new iPhone

00:04:35   ever because it was the last one that shipped in June. And the iPhone 4S was the first one that

00:04:43   shifted to the September timeframe. So it was the new iPhone for longer than 12 months. It was,

00:04:51   I don't know, more like 15, 16 months.

00:04:53   Yeah. And it took a while. I remember it taking a while to get mine too. I don't remember exactly

00:04:58   how long. I think it was at least a month though. I mean, I ordered it fairly early on and just could

00:05:04   not get one for weeks.

00:05:06   And I think it was also, was it also the phone that the white one took over a year to come out?

00:05:12   Oh yeah, I think so. Right. They didn't have the white one initially. Yeah.

00:05:15   Right. Because the white 3GSs were no big deal, right? Or in 3G.

00:05:19   Plastic.

00:05:20   Right. But the white iPhone 4 was actually the bigger scandal. Again, the weirder thing,

00:05:25   there should have been the bigger scandal, just didn't get the publicity. But anyway,

00:05:29   that was a big enough deal that Steve Jobs had to call short of vacation to Hawaii.

00:05:34   That was really something. Ben Gate, I guess, was second. That was the iPhone 6. And again,

00:05:41   a somewhat legitimate issue, right? That if you supplied sufficient force, you could bend

00:05:49   an iPhone, a reasonable strength human being could bend an iPhone 6. And if you keep it in a very

00:05:57   tight butt pants pocket, you might sit on it and bend it. That was a big one. Anyway, this year's

00:06:05   is so far at least is Heat Gate, iPhone 15 overheating gate. Have you been following along?

00:06:14   I've been following it. I don't have an iPhone 15 of any flavor. I'm still loving my 13 mini,

00:06:20   so I'm not there yet. Well, we can just record that snippet of the show. And then next year,

00:06:27   you'll still say, "I'm still enjoying my 13 mini." And then two years from now, you'll be on the show,

00:06:32   you're still enjoying your 13 mini. Well, when I bought it, I was like, "I might have this for

00:06:36   four years again." Because I had the original SE for four years because they didn't come out with

00:06:41   the mini for a long time. So I think it's going to happen again. See, this is where the media misses

00:06:47   the real scandal. The real scandal is doing away with the mini form factor. That's my thing,

00:06:52   but nobody listens to it. Certainly nobody at Apple anyway. I wish, and I wrote this in my

00:06:59   review, I think that my hypothetical ideal iPhone, if I could just go into the lab and

00:07:05   Lego kit up my own custom iPhone, would be the mini size with the pro specs. And now that,

00:07:13   especially now that they're made of titanium, which I really enjoy with the pro finish. And if

00:07:18   that means for space reasons, they could only put two cameras in and it would be the regular camera

00:07:24   and the ultra wide. And I would not even have a 3X camera, let alone a 5X. So be it. That would be

00:07:31   my ideal iPhone. Alas, that iPhone does not exist. But anyway, I've been using iPhone 15's

00:07:39   review units and now my own personal one I started using last weekend, which is a regular size iPhone

00:07:46   15 Pro. I've seen no overheating issues at all. If anything, in my personal experience,

00:07:56   it's been less than some years. And the one thing, this happens all the time. Apple's has a support

00:08:03   document about it. Whenever the press, see, I've read like three articles so far where Apple's

00:08:08   statement reiterates this fact. When you set up a new iPhone or like, I guess like restore, even if

00:08:14   you just have an old one and do a complete restore, like the first two days, it does a

00:08:18   lot of stuff in the background, like cameras or photos, library syncing. I guess it does a lot of

00:08:24   the on device processing. So the upside of Apple's approach to machine learning is they do all of

00:08:32   this stuff on device, which is more private or completely private, assuming there's no bugs where

00:08:39   the stuff leaks to the cloud or something like that. But it's a more private way of doing it.

00:08:44   It's distributed computationally around the world. You're not at the mercy of their servers. But the

00:08:51   downside of it is at some point, your phone needs to do the on device processing. So a new phone,

00:08:57   where it's looking at the library and doing I don't know, new facial analysis, looking at your

00:09:02   photos for family and now pets and everything, all of that. But we've known this for years that

00:09:08   after you set up a new iPhone or restore one, the first two days, it might get warm or might have

00:09:14   definitely might have lower battery life than you normally get the other 360 days of the year.

00:09:21   Until the new iPhones come out again. So I think that's a factor. But I would say personally,

00:09:26   I experienced even less of that this year. That sort of, Hey, it's I just set up this phone

00:09:31   yesterday. Really feels warm. No, I didn't feel it. Yeah. Well, there's a lot of, I guess that

00:09:38   Resident Evil game is coming out soon. And so people are like, well, they're touting this as a

00:09:43   major gaming device. Then is that going to be an issue when you're trying to play?

00:09:50   Right. Premium games on this unit, right? Which I don't know. I have to admit my personally testing

00:09:58   repertoire does not involve AAA games. But, but they, if that's the case, but the other thing that

00:10:07   strikes me about this is there's a lot of news coverage about it. And in fact, Apple PR is in

00:10:12   fact, emailing people. There's a story at Forbes. I forget. I think his name's Dan Phelan already

00:10:18   wrote it, but there's a statement Apple has put out about the overheating that they're they,

00:10:25   and they've found some sort of bug in Iowa 17. They've identified at least three popular apps,

00:10:31   including Instagram, which I've heard of it's Instagram, Uber and asphalt nine are the three

00:10:40   apps that they've thrown under the, maybe fairly thrown under the bus. But there's also,

00:10:46   I saw a YouTube from a guy. I forget his name. Let me see here. I'll put it in the show notes,

00:10:53   but as a guy, it's so confusing sometimes with the YouTubers, because his name is iPhone dough,

00:11:01   iPhone D O. I don't know what his real name is. Oh, that's what's so confusing when these

00:11:06   YouTubers who go by handle. But anyway, he just launches, he's got this video where he's got one

00:11:12   of those thermometers that you just point at a device and it somehow reads the temp surface

00:11:17   temperature. All he does is open the Instagram app and it goes from 80 degrees Fahrenheit on the back

00:11:23   to up to like 90 very quickly. And he, you can see it just start draining his battery like 1%

00:11:30   a minute. Just, and it's just open on his profile page. He's not like scrolling through Instagram,

00:11:36   loading new things. He just opened his profile page and left it there. So God only knows what

00:11:42   the Instagram app is doing there. You can imagine how Uber would also be one of the apps where

00:11:47   it does a lot of stuff in the background. So I guess a bug is possible. But the other thing

00:11:53   that this video shows is he iPhone dough, iPhone do maybe like Mr. Do remember Mr. Do

00:12:01   the video game? Mr. Do is like Dig Dug. You dig a hole and shoot a ball around. You need to get your

00:12:08   early 80s arcade memory back in order. I spent much of the early 80s in an arcade,

00:12:12   but probably a few years earlier than you did. Well, you'd remember Mr. Do. Trust me,

00:12:17   I'll put it in the show notes and it'll be like, Oh, I remember that stupid game.

00:12:20   But he shows it. He runs it. He does the same test on his iPhone 14 Pro and with Instagram,

00:12:28   same version of the Instagram app, just opened to his profile and boom, the temperature goes up 10,

00:12:34   15 degrees. Once you get to a hundred degrees Fahrenheit, that is pretty warm, not dangerous,

00:12:39   but uncomfortably warm sort of, but that's an iPhone 14 Pro. So it's not like an iPhone

00:12:45   15 Pro specific issue, whatever is going on. Hmm. Do you think that happens though? Like people

00:12:51   start noticing things when a new device comes out, they're like, Oh my God, why is this so

00:12:55   like this? And sometimes it's, well, it was always like that. You just noticed it cause you get a new

00:12:59   phone. Right? Well, but I, and I just can't help, but think that there is a natural tendency in the

00:13:06   media to iPhone 15s are great and there's nothing wrong with them is not a very good headline,

00:13:14   right? iPhone 15 pros signature, new material, and the foundation of all of the first ad campaigns

00:13:22   make the phones overheat is there. There you go. Now you've got, yeah. A man bites dog instead of

00:13:29   dog bites man. Yeah. But I haven't seen anybody actually prove it. And I think honestly, again,

00:13:38   not to blame it on one person, but sort of actually am going to blame it on Ming Chi Kuo,

00:13:45   like Ming Chi Kuo obviously has a tremendous reputation and he posted a thing on his medium

00:13:54   blog, very short post, but it's here. I can actually just read the whole thing.

00:13:59   It's short enough where he says the iPhone 15 pro series overheating issues are unrelated to TSMC

00:14:08   advanced three nanometer mode. And he's the whole posted my survey indicates that the iPhone 15 pro

00:14:14   series over overheating issues are unrelated to TSM C's advanced three nanometer mode. The primary

00:14:20   cause is more likely the compromises made in the thermal system designed to achieve a lighter

00:14:26   weight, such as the reduced heat dissipation area and the use of a titanium frame, which negatively

00:14:31   impacts thermal efficiency. It's expected that Apple will address this through software updates,

00:14:37   but improvements may be limited unless Apple lowers processor performance. If Apple does not

00:14:44   properly address the issue, it could negatively impact shipments over the product life of the

00:14:48   iPhone 15 pro series. End of post. That's the whole thing. There's a lot to unpack there,

00:14:53   but if you're of the opinion that Ming Chi Kuo's word is gold, then you read this and you say,

00:15:01   Oh my God, this guy who's like the top Apple analyst says that the titanium use of titanium

00:15:06   is making these things overheat. This is obviously not something that they can address in a tweak to

00:15:13   the supply chain. It is what it is for the next year. Everybody knows the next iPhone's not coming

00:15:18   out till next year. And he's saying the only way they may be able to address it is to slow down

00:15:23   everybody's iPhone. Oh my God, this is terrible. And then the last sentence, this may affect

00:15:28   shipments. And then, so if you're a user, you're like, Oh, I shouldn't buy this phone because

00:15:32   they're going to slow it down because it's using a material that heats it up. And at the end,

00:15:38   if you're an investor or whatever in Apple stock, you're thinking this is, this means the iPhone

00:15:44   15 pro is going to sell like. This seems like it was written specifically to absolve TSMC. And I'm

00:15:52   not trying to say that in a way that TSMC's processes is to blame here at all. I bet, I bet

00:15:58   it's probably not, but it seems like it's written with the specific goal of saying

00:16:02   of addressing any concerns that people might have that it's TSMC's fault.

00:16:07   Right. Exactly. It does. And might make sense given that his undisputed expertise is in leaks

00:16:16   from the supply chain. Right. I mean, there's no, I don't see how anybody could dispute that he's

00:16:21   the best at that. Right. Yeah. Germin seems to have sources in Cupertino who tell him things,

00:16:27   actual Apple people with apple.com addresses, tell him things. Ming-Chi Quo's,

00:16:35   given both where he lives and what he's reported over the years, his sources clearly come from

00:16:43   suppliers. And it seems like this is one from TSMC like, Hey, not us. Right. You want to tell

00:16:49   people this isn't our fault, right? What I can say talking with people at Apple is that the

00:16:55   Apple is adamant that the frame of the iPhone 15 pro with the aluminum inside,

00:17:03   I forget the chemical process. They called it that bonds it to the titanium. It's sort of like

00:17:10   welding, but without like the cool laser part of welding, but it is, it's effectively like you heat

00:17:18   up the two pieces of metal to a certain temperature. And then when they're pressed together,

00:17:23   they, the molecules bond so that the aluminum part inside is bonded to the titanium part outside.

00:17:30   But the bottom line is that these phones dissipate heat better than any of the stainless

00:17:36   steel iPhones that they've ever made, which would start with the iPhone 10, right? So the iPhone 10,

00:17:42   the 10 S the 11 pro 12 pro 13 pro 14 pro are the ones that use stainless steel and that this phone

00:17:51   and Justin, just the frame design alone dissipates heat better than any of those steel phones do. So

00:17:57   if there's a problem with heat with this, it's not related to the titanium. I believe the people I've

00:18:02   talked to multiple people. I believe that I don't think. And if you read Ming Chi Kuo's thing,

00:18:08   it doesn't say that he talked to anybody who blamed the titanium. He just says it's more likely,

00:18:14   but it's definitely not, but there it is Ming Chi Kuo said it and it's out there.

00:18:18   And then this part about it's expected that Apple will address this through software updates,

00:18:24   but improvements may be limited unless they lower processor performance. The statement Apple gave

00:18:29   to the guy at Forbes today, obviously was without mentioning Ming Chi Kuo was obviously responding

00:18:36   though to it because they told him specifically that while they have a, but they've identified

00:18:42   a bug in iOS 17, the fix does not involve lowering performance, lowering performance,

00:18:49   which would have again would be a scandal. I mean, that would be a, that's the sort of

00:18:53   nightmare scenario for, well, I mean, obviously not quite up there with iPhones catching fire,

00:19:00   I guess, but having to lower the performance would be a disaster PR wise, which would be,

00:19:07   I mean, I'm laughing, but it would be, it'd be a bad year for Apple. But if like the initial reviews

00:19:12   from last week had these geek bench scores, and then after iOS 17.1 comes out, they're down 20%

00:19:19   would be not so good. And at the same, I mean, and their feather in their cap is the performance

00:19:27   per watt, right? So if they're burning, making things hotter to get performance,

00:19:33   then that's a scandal in and of itself. Right. So I think what we're actually seeing is a bit

00:19:39   of hypochondria from users from the first few days of upgrading a phone. Like, Hey, it does feel warm.

00:19:46   What's going on. I've read all this stuff, some sort of bug in iOS 17, which happens and some

00:19:52   misbehaving third-party apps like Instagram and Uber in this asphalt game. I on that last point,

00:19:59   though, I do wonder, is it because Instagram and Uber are so super popular? I mean, that's got to

00:20:07   play one factor into it right there. Those are obviously, I don't know how many people play

00:20:11   asphalt nine, but I know that Instagram and Uber, that one, I had not heard of the other two,

00:20:16   obviously. Yeah. Well, I just know the asphalt nine, cause for years it's been one of their go

00:20:22   to games as like proof of how powerful the graphics are. It's just, it's exactly what you think. It's

00:20:29   some kind of crazy racing game, but is the Instagram and Uber thing about their popularity

00:20:35   multiplied by the bug? Like how many far less popular apps are doing the exact same sort of bad

00:20:44   programming things. And they're just not getting the publicity cause they're not popular. Yeah. Or

00:20:49   is this just a, I could also see this as some sort of it it's it's a real mystery. I think to just

00:20:59   about everybody outside the app store hierarchy, how much of a special, how much special dispensation

00:21:07   the big apps get from app store review? Like, is this the sort of thing that if like you and I made

00:21:13   an app together and did the same thing that Instagram is doing, we'd get rejected from app

00:21:18   review and they'd be like, Hey, when you go to this profile screen, you peg the CPU at a hundred

00:21:22   percent nonstop. So rejected, but Instagram was on like a special path and goes through. I mean,

00:21:29   Uber famously got caught with code in their app years ago, where if it detected that it was within

00:21:39   five miles of Apple in Cupertino, it behaved one way. And when it was further away from infinite

00:21:48   loop, it behaved another way because when it was in Cupertino, it was, and I think it was like an

00:21:54   efficiency thing. I will make a note here to try to find a story about that. I would imagine that

00:22:00   if it, again, if it was like me and you who made an app and we got caught special casing, the geo

00:22:06   location of where we thought the app store reviewers were, our app might not make it back

00:22:12   in this store ever. Right. Whereas Uber is obviously still there. They're sort of too big

00:22:18   to kick out of the app store permanently. Are they still playing shenanigans with background APIs?

00:22:23   I mean, they do make those decisions occasionally. I mean, famously with Epic, right?

00:22:28   Right. Right. You really have to push the boundaries.

00:22:32   Yeah. So I don't know what the explanation is there. I would, the Instagram one really,

00:22:38   who knows what's going on, what they're doing on the profile page, but it seems like a non-issue.

00:22:44   It's just engineering wise. It's just a question of how bad the publicity is going to continue to

00:22:52   be as people look, I don't know, try to make hay out of it, but I don't see it as a real issue.

00:23:00   I would seem, it seems to me like currently the it's sort of being out shown by the problems with

00:23:06   the case with the fine woven, which that's the gate number two. Yeah. Right. The fine woven gate.

00:23:14   This one, it seems more legit, right? Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah. I mean,

00:23:20   it does seem like maybe there's a bit of a problem with the heating, but not huge and not something

00:23:23   that should seriously impact the sales of the phone, but I wouldn't recommend anybody to find

00:23:29   woven case. So I've got them from Apple and I don't typically use a case, but I, Amy and I were

00:23:36   just down in Florida for the week, our little, a little mid, mid September vacation, just the two

00:23:42   of us. And I, in photography mode, kept my phone in the fine woven case all week and it looks as

00:23:51   good as new. And I wasn't babying it. I mean, I don't know. I mean, it's, some of this is clearly

00:23:57   subjective, like Ben Thompson, my pal Ben from dithering. He hates the way the case feels. He

00:24:02   just, he got one and just the material just repulses him and I can see it. I can see how

00:24:09   it's polarizing touch wise. It's a very opinionated feel. I don't, I can't say I love it the more I

00:24:15   use it, but I don't hate it either. And it's sort of feels utilitarian to me. I do question

00:24:23   the durability over a year. I don't know. I thought that at the beginning, I just like,

00:24:27   won't that, won't this fray or pill? I don't know. So there's this subjective thing where

00:24:32   even if it proves to be about as durable as you could hope a $59 case would be,

00:24:37   which should be pretty durable. Some people just don't like it. Right. So that's one thing.

00:24:42   The second thing would be that it does seem to not be durable, like the fingernail thing. And that

00:24:49   the stores chance Miller at nine to five Mac sort of had a pretty strident column saying, yeah,

00:24:55   I got to give him credit for it. I mean, it's like, he's, he's not leaving us wondering what

00:25:02   he really thinks about the fine moving. I thought it was, I, this is a opening paragraph on one of

00:25:06   them was pretty funny. And it was just like, like, this is a terrible case. Do not buy it.

00:25:11   You can probably stop reading here, but I'll explain why.

00:25:16   And Apple should like re recall them and give everybody their money back. And yeah, it's pretty,

00:25:21   pretty strong, but he had pictures from Apple stores where the ones are, I have it right here.

00:25:27   Here's the opening of his column. I will put this in the show notes. This is

00:25:30   Apple weaved itself into a fine mess with the awful iPhone 15 fine woven case. Apple's new

00:25:39   fine woven cases for iPhone 15 are a huge swing and miss. They suck. Apple should remove them

00:25:44   from sale and refund everyone who's already bought one. You can pretty much stop reading the story at

00:25:50   this point, but I'll offer a few pieces of supporting evidence for my claims. So I kudos

00:25:55   to chance Miller for letting it fly. Here's my question though. So there's pictures. Have you

00:26:00   ever been to the case section of an Apple store? Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think, I don't know. I don't

00:26:06   know why I always, whenever I'm in there, I just go look at everything. I mean, most of the cases

00:26:10   are in cases. Most of the cases are in boxes, right? So you can't mess with them.

00:26:15   But like for each one, they put one on the front. It's like a special custom shelving they've built

00:26:21   where the ones you buy are behind it. And the one in front is sort of mounted on a dummy iPhone so

00:26:28   that you can see the actual color and touch it if you want, but it's not connected to an iPhone, but

00:26:34   apparently all over the place. Apple's having to replace those ones at the front of each

00:26:41   shelf because people are running their fingernails over them. And then those fingernail

00:26:48   marks don't come off. But is that new with fine woven and we're noticing it because people are

00:26:55   looking for it and taking pictures or did this happen with the leather ones too? Like, cause

00:26:59   I've had Apple sends me with the review kit, like samples of the cases. Like this year they sent me,

00:27:07   I had all four phones and they sent Silicon cases, Silicon, the rubber case. They sent me the rubber

00:27:15   cases for the non-pro phones and the fine woven cases for the two sizes of pro phones. The rubber

00:27:21   ones obviously are fingernail proof unless you have really sharp fingernails, but I've had

00:27:27   leather cases from Apple over the years too. And they're just sitting on shelves around my office

00:27:33   and I ran my fingernails over them and they take leather is not great for fingernails. I mean, it

00:27:39   does sort of, right. That's a good question. It's like, are people just doing stuff that they're not

00:27:44   normally doing to previous cases? And I would imagine that they, you put a leather case out in a

00:27:51   high traffic Apple store, you know, like year ago, two years ago, whenever it go back to when

00:27:56   any of the years when they were selling leather cases, I would imagine they got replaced throughout

00:28:01   the week that, that you can't just put them out there for people to touch and have them stay

00:28:06   looking brand new, but is fine woven worse. It seems like maybe.

00:28:11   [Joey] Seem that way for sure. And when you are replacing leather with something that you're

00:28:20   touting as equivalent, people are going to want to know if that's really true.

00:28:25   And particularly with when they're paying $59 for them.

00:28:28   Yeah. Right. Which is a lot for a case. I mean,

00:28:32   And I don't buy, by and large, I do not buy Apple's cases when I buy a case for my iPhone,

00:28:37   for sure. Just because they are so expensive and it seems like I can get something that's

00:28:42   pretty decent. I, but I don't use a case anyway. So it's, yeah, I have a case for my iPhone,

00:28:48   but it's like only when I think I like if I'm going to go hiking or somewhere,

00:28:52   if I'm going to be someplace where there's a lot of cement, then I might put it on, but I never,

00:28:56   but I almost never do. Yeah. Well, sweaty hands is my scenario. So like going to the beach or

00:29:02   somewhere hot and somewhere where I expect to photograph. I liked the thing I've always liked

00:29:06   about Apple's metal cases and, or not metal, but leather cases. But I said metal because I'm

00:29:12   thinking of the buttons. The buttons on their leather cases have always been the nicest buttons

00:29:17   on any case I've ever seen. And I've always felt it frustrating that they don't use the same buttons

00:29:23   on their silicone rubber cases, which I think would make them nicer, but maybe some people don't

00:29:29   like metal buttons. And I've always thought it was an upsell like, okay, well, you can buy a rubber

00:29:34   case for $49, but the buttons are rubber too. Or you can go to our upscale leather cases and get

00:29:42   these nice fancy metal buttons in addition to the leather. I don't know how much of that is that

00:29:47   some people just want the whole case to be rubber, including the buttons and how much of it is about

00:29:52   segmenting the $49 cases from 59. But. Well, I wonder if there's, yeah, I mean,

00:29:59   you're buying a rubber case. You might have certain use cases where like, maybe you're

00:30:02   taking in water all the time or something, or like maybe you would like to read in the bath or

00:30:06   whatever it is, and you don't want metal involved in any of that. Just, I don't know if that metal

00:30:11   would rust at all, but maybe there's an expectation that based on how you want to use the case that

00:30:16   you don't want metal. Right. Or that stuff would get in the crevice between the metal and what used

00:30:22   to be leather and now is sort of a plastic around the side of the fine woven case. But that would be

00:30:27   a solution would be to put the metal buttons on the other cases. B, this has to be an absolute

00:30:35   bonanza for third party case makers, which is always, I was talking to a friend of the show,

00:30:42   Paul Kifasis about it, but I was just speculating, like what a high pressure business that must be

00:30:47   in to be in the iPhone case business, because there's such a rush to have your cases available

00:30:55   when the new iPhones become available. Right. Because that's when people buy their case

00:31:00   is they buy the case when they buy the phone. I mean, obviously if your case falls apart or you

00:31:06   get bored with it or you don't like it and you decide to buy one six months or a year later,

00:31:11   or maybe, you know, like a normal person, instead of upgrading your phone every year,

00:31:15   you buy a new case every year and keep your phone for three years or something like that.

00:31:19   But an awful lot of people buy the case when they buy the phone and an awful lot of iPhone buyers

00:31:27   or enthusiasts buy the new iPhone in September on a pre-order and try to get it in September

00:31:35   immediately. Probably a lot of the people who listen to shows like this one are exactly that

00:31:40   sort of person. And so the pressure in the case industry to have your cases available on day one

00:31:46   is enormous. But how do you make a case for a phone that's not out yet from a company that

00:31:53   doesn't reveal the specs or size or anything like that? Well, they do send out dummy models, right?

00:31:58   I mean, they send, you have to get into some sort of program. Yeah. I mean, well, that's what they

00:32:03   get. They come from somewhere anyway. I don't know. I don't know. I thought they came from

00:32:06   Apple. I thought Apple worked with certain companies and send them. This is just like

00:32:12   the outline of the body. I don't know though. I don't think they do. And, and well, then I

00:32:18   think they get them from the supply chain. Yeah. I think that it all comes from the supply chain.

00:32:22   I don't think Apple even unofficially, I mean, if they do, it's obviously under an NDA and I've

00:32:29   never seen a leak all the time though. I mean, you can see them throughout the summer, like,

00:32:34   here's the first, this is what the body of the new iPhone is going to look like. And I was assuming

00:32:40   like companies like OtterBox or something would get something for, obviously doesn't have any of

00:32:45   the specs or anything like that. Anything or the colors or it's like, here's just like a 3d

00:32:52   print of what the body is. Yeah. But here's the story. It's the one that Paul sent me. It was from

00:32:57   the verge. It's that the iPhone 15 pro case market is a minefield right now as reported by Dan Seifert.

00:33:04   But the quote is what do you do if you wanted to have an iPhone 15 pro case available on day one,

00:33:11   did you bet on the action button or did you head your bet and make it a cutout? Like it could still

00:33:17   be a ringer switch, but because it's a cutout, you can push the button. And some of the cases

00:33:23   that are already out have a cutout. And some of them made their bet that it was going to be an

00:33:28   action button and just put a button like they do for the volume buttons. What's the quote here?

00:33:35   So peak design in a Reddit post said, we actually do not have the literal 3d details from Apple.

00:33:43   And so we are reliant on industry rumors to inform the design. In the case of the new action button,

00:33:49   there were rumors in both the switch and the button direction. And we also did not have much

00:33:54   information on how a potential button would be used because of these conflicting rumors. We opted

00:34:00   for the safer route and designed a cutout that would give good access to the button feature or

00:34:05   a switch, depending on which rumor ended up being the actual truth. What a high pressure situation.

00:34:11   And if you bet on the button, like some of the third party cases did, and it had been just an

00:34:17   old fashioned ringer switch still, you'd have all these cases. You'd have to throw the cases out. I

00:34:22   mean, you really would. They'd be worthless. So what a high pressure situation. That's a business

00:34:27   I wouldn't want to be in. Just about, well, like every business. But I guess that's the thing about

00:34:38   the fine woven thing. Obviously, this is a bonanza for the third party cases, especially the ones that

00:34:43   make leather for people who do prefer leather. And even if you were open minded about the fine woven

00:34:50   as a replacement for leather, which is obviously how Apple's pitching it, and you go to the store

00:34:56   and feel it, or you bought one and you're like, Nope, not for me. Boy, it's a good time to be

00:35:00   making leather iPhone cases. I can't even I get tons and tons of PR from case makers all the time

00:35:06   every year. But this year it's off the rails in terms of how much of it is specifically about

00:35:11   leather. Did you ever there was a apparently there was a some pixel case that people liked that was

00:35:18   made fabric. Yeah, yeah. Because it came up recently and people were saying,

00:35:23   this, you know, they stopped making it, I guess. But yeah, they were like, Oh, man,

00:35:27   that was a good case. And they shouldn't have stopped making that. The last time I bought an

00:35:30   Android phone was the pixel for I still have it. But I don't know what I did with my case for it.

00:35:36   But I think that was the one I had the case for. Okay, yeah. So I'm looking at these. There's a

00:35:40   here's a nine to five Google article about it, and they're much more fabric key looking and have

00:35:46   different patterns and stuff like that. They look nice. I mean, but they don't look terribly appley.

00:35:53   No, they don't look like the kind of thing that Apple would ship.

00:35:56   No. And if everybody's praising the one that I have somewhere in my office for the for the

00:36:02   pixel for it's it is a very unapologetically fabric fabric. Yeah, it is like a twill suit.

00:36:11   Yeah, that's what these are. Yeah. Like, you wouldn't be super textured,

00:36:16   like a very rigid texture. Like, I don't know how else to say it. Like a twill suit or something.

00:36:22   Yeah. A fabric that you would never make like sure it's more like the screen on like a home

00:36:26   pot or something. Yeah, yeah, something like that. Or you could imagine it being the material for

00:36:31   like a speaker cover or something like that. But not something that you would make like a shirt out

00:36:36   of something that would touch your skin. It would be like a jacket or something that would go over a

00:36:40   shirt. So I don't know. Is this a scandal? I don't know. It's not like, you know, it's an accessory.

00:36:47   So it's not I don't think it's like a big it's not like it's, I mean, it tennegate was,

00:36:52   it was an actual flaw with the phone. But what you know, they were right. It was a

00:36:56   flaw with many phones. So it wasn't as good deal as everybody made it out to be. But it was certainly

00:37:01   a deal of some kind. This is like, this doesn't really impact you can get another case. So it

00:37:07   doesn't. It's also just funny that people are so wound up about like the case taking damage.

00:37:13   I think it's I think it is an issue simply because it's a $59 case. But the case is designed to take

00:37:18   the damage. That's the whole point of the case is to take the damage that the phone doesn't take.

00:37:22   And I can think about your original iPhone before anybody really made cases for them. And how much

00:37:29   I think we have our sleeves and stuff like that. But there weren't a lot of

00:37:32   cases as I recall for like the very first iPhone. It was not much of a business back then. And

00:37:38   people would regularly post years later pictures of how like banged up their iPhones were. And

00:37:45   there's a certain charm to that. I think I mean, we don't nobody likes that anymore. Everybody

00:37:49   wants their iPhone to be in pristine condition. Well, there was the picture in the coffee table

00:37:55   book of one of the designers on the iPhone team. They're like much used two year old original iPhone

00:38:03   was like incredibly beaten up. And I thought it looked beautiful. I thought it was. I know,

00:38:08   I think like you said, I think there's a certain charm to that. But we I think because we turn them

00:38:15   over so fast, it doesn't resonate with people anymore. Yeah, I don't know. But we need gates.

00:38:23   Are there any other gates this year for the iPhone or are we caught up? Well, there was the there's

00:38:28   a thing with the lip, right? There's a small Oh, right, right. Apparently a lot of people with so

00:38:32   well, not a lot. I wouldn't say a lot of people. Some people were complaining about the titanium

00:38:37   lip being higher than the glass. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. And so if you could feel a little bit

00:38:44   of an edge there if you ran your finger up past the top of the screen. Yeah. And that one I saw

00:38:52   some pictures that some people took and it sounds like it's only like the depth of an index card.

00:39:00   It's not a lot but on something with such tight tolerance is something like the even just the

00:39:06   width of a piece of paper is actually significant. It really is. So I don't downplay it. I'd be upset

00:39:13   if I bought a $1,100 iPhone 15 Pro Max and add it sounds like it also is only affecting the pro maxes

00:39:21   and not the pros which might it might be because there's a little more flex because it's a bigger

00:39:28   slab. That sounds like a legit issue. It does not seem widespread. I can say the only pro max I have

00:39:37   in hand is my review unit but it does not exhibit a problem. I can't catch my fingernail on it but

00:39:44   using just my thumb does it feel like there's like even less than a width of a piece of paper?

00:39:52   Something that you can't catch your fingernail on but can I feel something or am I imagining it?

00:39:57   Maybe just a little sort of. Certainly nothing I would have brought up in my review. My regular size

00:40:04   15 Pro review unit and my personal one that I bought neither of them have any kind of gap or

00:40:12   something like that. I don't know. I hopefully Apple for people who have this they should just

00:40:16   take the phone back and I don't know study them or something but yeah I know it sounds super

00:40:22   nitpicky but that's the Apple you know yeah when you're Apple that's the game you're playing.

00:40:27   Yeah and again when you're paying $1,100, $1,200 whatever it is you're paying yeah that's a lot of

00:40:33   money. Yeah it was Evans Hanke in fact whose iPhone just looked it up here it's Evans Hanke who

00:40:38   would who I guess just left Apple last year but it was her iPhone original aluminum iPhone that

00:40:45   was pictured in the designed by Apple in California coffee table book. Arguably the most beautiful

00:40:51   iPhone I've ever seen Evans Hanke's personal iPhone. All right let me take a break here

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00:43:47   code talk show save 10 percent my thanks to Squarespace for sponsoring the show what else

00:43:53   was on the agenda here so we got to the third gate which was lip gate i don't know what is that what

00:43:59   we would call it we can call it whatever we want to all right hold on we're the ones making up the

00:44:04   gate names then absolutely so we got the oh there is one more gate john we've got one more it's USB-C

00:44:12   gate which is people discovering there's a Mac rumor story that some people are discovering

00:44:19   that when they connect their their new phones i think any of them right because they all have USB-C

00:44:25   so any of the iPhone 15 models to their car via a cable that CarPlay doesn't work it just it charges

00:44:33   the phone and the phone sees that it's connected but you don't actually get CarPlay and the best

00:44:41   guess that anybody seems to have about what's going on is welcome to the world of USB-C cables

00:44:48   because basically if you switch it out if you switch the cable for a different cable

00:44:54   and from a different brand it suddenly starts working for people so the right and the specific

00:45:00   form of cable that seems to be the most problematic is USB-C-A on the plug end and USB-C

00:45:11   on the goes into your phone end right which is a well for most cars i think would probably be

00:45:17   what you need yes because most cars even i guess newer cars now are coming out with USB-C built in

00:45:25   right but i think they still have USB i i don't know at least the last time i rented a car when

00:45:30   we took the kid to college last month still had it was like a year-old rental a moth how do you

00:45:36   pronounce the word behemoth behemoth to pack full of suitcases and stuff it had i don't know 18 USB

00:45:43   plugs strewn about the cabin USB-A and USB-C which i guess is the way to go if it's a big

00:45:51   yeah i mean mine's got two no mine has actually just one USB-A plug and then the cigarette lighter

00:45:58   so yeah yeah i'm i'm currently i just got a carplay head unit recently so and i don't i mean

00:46:05   it's wireless so it doesn't have that problem of course but uh i guess most people's old

00:46:11   lightning cables the traditional lightning cable is USB-A to lightning right that's the bigger

00:46:16   plug on the plug end and that's the one that gave nobody any problems for years and years and that's

00:46:22   a weird USB-C cable uh because it it has like all of the limits of USB-A for charging and data

00:46:32   speeds but it has a USB-C plug on the other end because that's what you need to go into your phone

00:46:39   i don't think apple makes such a cable unless i'm wrong and they certainly isn't what they ship with

00:46:44   the phones it's USB-C on both ends for the phones yeah they they did they made a USB-C to lightning

00:46:51   but i don't write in a to right and so people are buying those from third parties and third party

00:46:59   USB cables have always sort of been a you get what you pay for i mean i would my advice would be get

00:47:05   it from a name brand even though it costs 15 or 20 bucks like mono price is super cheap mono price

00:47:13   anchor not the two dollar cables you can get on amazon right but i guess the last of the gates

00:47:20   though combines the two things the USB-C cables with going back to the fine woven case i forgot

00:47:25   to mention the issues with the cutout on the port on the case yeah and again this seems like it's

00:47:32   all apple's fault we're and i again i don't know like was this an issue with the leather cases

00:47:37   but like with the fine woven cases you put the phone in the case and then you look at the port

00:47:43   and you could see that the cutout isn't quite centered around the USB-C port because you could

00:47:48   see like one of the little tiny screws next to the USB-C port through the cutout in the case on

00:47:54   the one side but on the other because it's like two like a millimeter off you don't see it and

00:48:00   that means that if your if your USB-C cable has a large enough plastic rim around the actual part

00:48:10   that goes in the metal part that actually inserts the penis i don't know you could say the male end

00:48:17   the male end it won't fit through the cutout in the fine woven case there's another way of saying

00:48:23   it too and i can't which is more more modern and probably what we should be using but i can't

00:48:28   remember where it is right now i tried it with some of my USB-C cables i have like some of my

00:48:34   longer ones i have like a six foot cable from nomad i think which is like a i forget what i

00:48:41   paid for but it's a really nice braided thick cable that cable which is sort of a rugged cable

00:48:47   doesn't even come close to fitting through the fine woven cutout it's obvious that it wouldn't

00:48:52   my other third-party cables mostly fit but some people are having problems where they've got a

00:48:58   bunch of USB-C cables and if the apple ones have particularly thin plastic yeah cups apples always

00:49:05   yeah apples always seem to think that you need to have very small cables i mean the ports on my

00:49:11   macbook air i feel are often a little too close together as if the assumption is well you're only

00:49:17   going to be plugging in the USB-C cable that probably that we provide you right as opposed

00:49:22   to anything from anybody else or anything that's using a dongle or some sort of novelty flash drive

00:49:30   or some i've got a few of those that people have given me for like christmas and stuff like that

00:49:34   when's a captain kirk like that will not fit in this thing if i have something else plugged in

00:49:39   yeah i think finally we can say we've wrapped the gate portion of the episode unless any kind of

00:49:47   breaking scandal happens in the next probably something happened while we were been recording

00:49:52   here on a saturday morning uh the other news i thought that was the most eye-opening of the week

00:49:59   was a report in the information that no details at all but that johnny i've and presumably not

00:50:07   johnny i personally but would be loved from his design firm is in talks with open ai to

00:50:15   help them design some sort of ai hardware device yeah it's hard to it's hard for me anyway to

00:50:22   imagine what this device would be like yeah just like more maybe like homepod sort of alexa type

00:50:31   of thing where you talk to it and get answers i don't get sometimes the wrong answers well and

00:50:37   that brings up the only other thing i can compare to would be humane the much publicized startup

00:50:45   that's whose product is largely a mystery but is sort of becoming less and less of a mystery this

00:50:51   year some sort of badge like a star trek communicator badge that you wear on your chest

00:50:58   and has some like a camera and we saw at the ted conference like a laser projector to project things

00:51:06   onto your palm in front of your hand and which they've when they first started when they first

00:51:13   announced their existence at humane and they've hired a bunch of x apple people are working there

00:51:19   i guess both hardware and software engineers in the last year they've sort of rebuilt it as an ai

00:51:25   first product that it's some sort of you wear this thing on your chest and it observes the world

00:51:31   around you and i guess you can talk to it they actually were in the news this week too where

00:51:36   naomi campbell was wearing one at what is this fashion week paris fashion week so we've got more

00:51:42   of a look but not doing anything with it no it's like you just get to see what it looks like yeah

00:51:48   and speaking of the original iphone that looks to me like like the top of an original iphone the way

00:51:53   it doesn't it yeah a little bit like the large bezel on the top and then a screen below oh you

00:51:59   can't tell what the heck it is yeah because it's not doing well yeah i can't tell because when

00:52:04   imran chaudhary the co-founder wore his at ted it was sort of tucked in a pocket like still sort of

00:52:12   semi-hidden like the actual hardware it's like you got to see him use the laser but i i don't know

00:52:19   so that's the other idea though would be is open ai thinking about some kind of wearable type thing

00:52:27   like this would that be the ai thing i i don't know i yeah the whole thing you seem like i'm

00:52:34   not sure about these use cases i mean it seems like so far what i have gleaned from this

00:52:40   technology from ai stuff is that it's best like the every time i talk to somebody who uses it

00:52:45   frequently they seem to indicate like if you're doing code it's really great because it gets you

00:52:50   all kinds of examples and like for so it works well for things that seem extremely concrete

00:52:55   but then at the same time there was a thing that i saw the other day where people were asking it

00:53:01   some i guess somehow this got to be the top answer on quora for this question which the question was

00:53:07   can you melt an egg and chat gpt said yeah sure you can melt an egg if you heat it high enough

00:53:15   it's like no you can't melt an egg it's gonna cook and then google search took that answer because

00:53:23   it was the top answer on quora as the right answer and so if you typed into google can you melt an

00:53:29   egg it would say yes um i think it's been fixed by now but it's it just seems like oh man just

00:53:37   we have a little ways to go still before i think that people want to be wearing these things around

00:53:41   like should i be going left or right there was i think it was on mastodon somebody and i forget

00:53:47   which service it was it might have been google barred or it might have been open but somebody

00:53:51   this week asked me is this true because they asked the bot where the name daring fireball came from

00:53:57   and i forget they made up both the answer was yes that john gruber started this website in 2002

00:54:07   and i forget where it said daring came from but it said fireball came from the fact that i'm a

00:54:12   fan of fireball cinnamon whiskey that sounds like something i wrote years ago yeah yeah

00:54:19   took that answer that a top answer from crazy apple rumors is that actually might there might

00:54:27   be a kernel of truth there because but there's no true kernel of truth to that being an actual

00:54:33   answer like the fact that of all whiskeys fireball whiskey is the one with the word fireball in it is

00:54:40   the bane of my existence i wish that fireball whiskey were a alcoholic beverage i could

00:54:46   recommend or at least give a so-so yeah sure yeah but i would have to say that cinnamon infused

00:54:54   whiskey is i i don't know i maybe i should say it's on you you should have named it daring pappy

00:55:00   van winkle yeah daring pappy yeah pappy fireball but no that is absolutely not true but uh but is

00:55:09   a perfect sort of answer from these things i i don't know i mean and we all do know it's an

00:55:16   interesting moment zoom out beyond what the encapsulation in a device would be but we all know

00:55:24   something is going to give here right computers have always going to go in this direction like

00:55:30   it's inevitable that we're going to make computers that we can just talk to the way we talk to each

00:55:35   other because it's the way we evolve to communicate with each other you know and i say this as a

00:55:41   writer first podcast or second but in my view of what i do but i think people who like my podcast

00:55:52   like it for different reasons than they like my writing right i i certainly feel that way about

00:55:58   podcasts i listen to from people who i don't i've never met but you get a certain familiarity with

00:56:05   the voices that you listen to and you sort of get to know them and it's it is it's just the way

00:56:11   humans have evolved we evolved to talk to each other so of course we're going to build computers

00:56:15   that we can just talk to and that will talk to us and we know that the old ones siri and alexa

00:56:23   and the google assistant and what's the samsung one bixby oh poor bixby we know that they're not

00:56:29   good enough right forget about how we would stack rank them when which one's better than the others

00:56:35   and which one's better for which things none of them are good enough not even close right they're

00:56:40   useful for certain things i love using my home pods to set the scenes in our house with the shades

00:56:46   and the lights and stuff like that and there are certainly many things that are good for just

00:56:52   talking to the dingus and giving it a command but in terms of actually having an intelligent

00:56:56   conversation it's not even it's not even spooky right yeah there was the story it's sort of like

00:57:04   to me the story was the cusp of the whole modern open ai chat gpt era of these ai bots were like

00:57:14   two two years ago i think it was during covet i'm pretty sure it was either summer 2020 or 2021

00:57:20   there was an engineer at google who wound up getting fired because he was making a stink

00:57:26   because he thought that what i guess they now call bard was actually sentient he thought that

00:57:33   he was convinced through his interaction with it that we've created a sentient consciousness

00:57:39   and what we're this is morally reprehensible because we've trapped it in our servers or

00:57:46   whatever nobody i obviously none of these things are sentient right this engineer you can see how

00:57:53   you you know in in in a chat situation talking with these things that they're certainly far

00:57:58   closer and they can pass the famous touring test right the touring test was if you're having a

00:58:05   text-based conversation with somebody on the other end can you tell that it's a human or a robot and

00:58:12   if you can't tell then it passes the touring test well these chat gpt things you can have

00:58:17   conversations with them where you can't be sure whether it's a human on the other end and even

00:58:21   with can you melt an egg i don't know are you just an idiot maybe you're an idiot right right

00:58:26   i think so like maybe the touring test gives too much credit to human beings right i've had some

00:58:30   conversations with people who were just like what are you talking about right there's a lot of people

00:58:35   really in the last like six years there's a lot yes exactly there's a lot of people whose connection

00:58:42   to reality is not even tenuous it's so so who knows but but you nobody has ever lost their mind

00:58:50   thinking siri was sentient right i mean it's but it's not well you can't have a conversation with

00:58:56   siri at all like you can't you did because siri doesn't retain things from one session to the next

00:59:02   right or one minute to the next but it doesn't even try to right it's not trying and falling

00:59:08   short it's just not the way you're supposed to interact with it yeah yeah i mean to your point

00:59:12   when you jump point about like wanting this i remember like this was like a few years before

00:59:17   covet i had a bad just like a bad case of the flu and i was upstairs in in bed by myself and like and

00:59:23   karen and hank were trying to stay away from me because i had a bad case of the flu and i was just

00:59:27   like sitting there with like nothing to do and like feeling miserable and so i just like i started

00:59:31   asking siri questions and at that moment it was like at least i was feeling i was talking to

00:59:36   somebody and though i knew i wasn't but it would have been great if i had been able to you know

00:59:43   if i had been able to have a conversation of some kind and have yeah siri remember the thing that i

00:59:48   just asked like three seconds ago but i what would an open ai hardware device look like again is it a

00:59:56   wearable and if so i don't see it i just don't see this humane thing taking off i would love to be

01:00:02   surprised right and i i'm still the fact that they have so many ex-apple people at both at the

01:00:09   engineering and design level and at the leadership level makes me at least curious right like if i

01:00:16   had never heard of any of the people who work there i'd have i'd be like what was the name of

01:00:20   that company again remember the thing i wouldn't even remember the name of the company so but is

01:00:25   that what they're talking about with open ai i don't well i think the problem the problem with

01:00:30   the humane thing is like you don't know what it is yet no i mean they've teased it an awful lot

01:00:35   and not really shown it do much of anything right i saw somebody speculate as it's and this seems

01:00:43   like oh yeah i could see that but you know how like you you were even saying that these open ai

01:00:48   things you you can write code and it's not just like a line at a time you can ask for an entire

01:00:54   program accomplish some sort of thing i'm not quite sure how complex they can get like if you just say

01:01:01   write me in python programming language a game that plays

01:01:07   undefeatable tic-tac-toe i don't know i mean but that's that might be i mean that seems like that's

01:01:13   possible yeah sure yeah because i i i can't express in code the algorithm to play unbeatable tic-tac-toe

01:01:21   but i know how to play unbeatable tic-tac-toe right i mean it's in some in somewhere on the

01:01:25   internet is right the code for that because i mean i recently re-watched war games and

01:01:31   oh that's a solvable problem that's something that someone could code that for sure so

01:01:36   maybe that's the first thing that we should be getting the thing to do every single time

01:01:44   played 20 000 games of tic-tac-toe do you watch do you happen to watch only murders in the building

01:01:51   yeah we are not caught up but we watch the first two seasons then i will not say it but

01:01:56   there's a ferris bueller joke that you will appreciate okay good but everybody out there

01:02:01   who hasn't listened either they have listened and they're laughing or they're going to watch it and

01:02:06   they're gonna be like oh my god that's what grouper was talking about that one time talking to molt

01:02:09   on the talk show um i guess any other idea we have right there's the wearable idea humane has

01:02:17   and then there's the thing you plug into the wall and it's a speaker type thing and that's the home

01:02:23   pod google assistant but would it make sense for open ai to make their own thing like that i mean

01:02:30   where does everything else come from what advantage do you have by having let's just

01:02:36   concede the point that open ai's ai is much better and more conversational than siri and google

01:02:42   assistant and alexa but what advantage do you have by having open ai answer your voice than that and

01:02:50   don't they have to do all these other things like have a connection to spotify and or apple music and

01:02:56   i really doubt an open ai love from device is going to get apple music i don't know or maybe

01:03:02   they would i don't know i guess it became popular enough why wouldn't it right and apple does work

01:03:08   with alexa now so that you can play apple music on it i i don't know but you'd have to do that

01:03:14   the other idea i saw somebody throw out there is because these things can write code on their own

01:03:19   they could make a phone and and here it break up the iphone android duopoly with this new this is

01:03:28   as big a breakthrough as the iphone was to the blackberries that came before it in the first

01:03:36   decade of the century and it would be an ai phone and instead of apps written by developers the ai

01:03:42   would make its own apps for you on the fly and it's like yeah that's that i could that's pretty

01:03:50   futuristic i would that does not sound at all like yeah that's that that someday that that might be

01:03:56   possible but i don't i think the thing the examples that i know of so far where it works

01:04:01   really well are like more like coding snippets that you need to put into something else it's

01:04:07   not doing an entire operating system it's so and it's certainly not doing complicated things like

01:04:13   connecting to cell services i mean qualcomm was a it was a little snippy i think about like

01:04:20   apple's chances of being able to replace their modems in the iphones and saying uh turns out

01:04:28   this is really complicated and much more complicated than making a processor for

01:04:32   is it really but okay well so says the company whose processors are consistently three to four

01:04:40   years behind in performance compared to apples but that qualcomm's gonna qualcomm i mean basically i

01:04:48   mean i wrote about it and a couple people ding me for it they're like yeah but apple's modem really

01:04:52   isn't up to snuff and they probably did want it out by now and it's like yeah but they're they

01:04:56   still can buy the best modem it's it's just a weird corporate attitude that qualcomm it's also

01:05:02   not something yeah it's not something that apple has been working on for as long as they've been

01:05:07   working on the a series and m series chips right it seems like qualcomm's attitude is either a

01:05:15   apple is going to eventually succeed and just build their own 5g modems within the next two

01:05:23   or three years and qualcomm's gonna lose the iphone as or apple as a customer for these modems

01:05:29   and so why not why not stick the knife in them while they're still buying the qualcomm modems

01:05:35   or apple's never going to succeed the thrust of that article that they sort of ceded to the wall

01:05:42   street journal that this is such a tricky hard problem and the only engineers in the world who

01:05:47   can deal with it are the ones who were already at qualcomm and apple is going to be dependent on us

01:05:52   forever and we don't like them so even though they're our customer and might be forever we

01:05:58   still want to embarrass them in the press because we're qualcomm that's the part that i find very

01:06:02   odd that if there's any hope that they're going to keep apple as a customer this would not be the

01:06:08   way to do it but you know it does make for entertaining punditry i don't know but that

01:06:14   comes back to the humane thing too where they haven't tried to explain how it stays connected

01:06:19   and they've made this message at humane that it's about basically we all spend too much time

01:06:24   staring at our phones and using our phones so why not wear this other thing that frees you from your

01:06:29   phone but how is it connected to the internet all day is it go through your phone is it tethered

01:06:33   and if it's not i don't understand how a little tiny device on your chest is has the battery to

01:06:40   stay connected all day there's so many problems and then it just comes back to you with this

01:06:44   johnny i've open ai collaboration it what what would the point of them making their own phone

01:06:50   be versus the fact that i have the open ai app on my phone today right and if i want to do anything

01:06:57   with it i just open the app and talk to it and you can now with the action button you could even set

01:07:02   it to activate open ai if that's how much you use a open ai you can you now could buy a phone an

01:07:09   iphone and have a button on the side that opens the app but what what do you get versus that i

01:07:14   don't know yeah and you have to do so many other things to make a phone you have to have a top

01:07:19   tier camera system i mean there's a reason apple spent so much time talking about it i did a whole

01:07:25   episode of panzerino last week talking mostly just not just about the iphone 15s but the the camera

01:07:30   system in particular so i don't know i mean at the same time like there are other people working on

01:07:36   stuff like this other than chat gpt or open ai and the lesson i think of apple's history and

01:07:43   particularly apple's history since jobs came back is that there is a definite advantage to making

01:07:48   your own hardware as well as your own software so it's like if they're at this point they're just

01:07:52   making and i think they're having trouble like getting people to pay for it so maybe their idea

01:07:57   is like well we need to make a whole thing and i don't think that's a bad idea but it's not easy

01:08:02   to do and you know so maybe it's a good idea to start sooner rather than later uh i i can't

01:08:10   remember the full list of companies we know that love from has been working with since johnny i've

01:08:16   left apple and i've and we do know that a lot if not all of the love from people the other designers

01:08:23   who work there either largely x apple or entirely x apple there's a lot of former apple people who

01:08:28   work there now but it's i know there was some company they made like a sixty thousand dollar

01:08:33   turntable for record playing i think they have i think there's something they're doing with ferrari

01:08:40   it's very niche stuff i mean i don't know which is more

01:08:44   rarefied people who buy ferraris or people who buy sixty thousand dollar

01:08:50   turntables i mean it's probably quite a bit of overlap but they've conspicuously not done

01:08:58   anything mass market yet i can't help but wonder eventually i would think they would want to

01:09:04   everything i know of johnny i've part of what he wants to do is sort of democratize good design

01:09:11   i think he considers it a remarkable accomplishment that apple's the the products he's best known for

01:09:17   from his long time at apple are mass market products for everyone right the ipod and

01:09:24   anybody can buy a macbook air the iphone is almost everybody you see either uses an iphone or uses a

01:09:32   phone that looks like an iphone right it is a truly humanity changing device i could imagine

01:09:38   he'd want to do something like that again but now that he's not at apple i can't help but think that

01:09:44   the psychology there not to put him on the couch so to say but would he want to make something that

01:09:51   is directly competing with the sort of things apple makes right i mean the stakes would be

01:09:57   incredibly high right like if he collaborated with open ai on some sort of whatever it would be

01:10:04   whatever it would be would obviously be competitive with apple's products right because we're talking

01:10:09   about a computer you talk to you know yeah i don't know i'm not disputing that that they've had the

01:10:15   talks and yeah i mean at this point it's probably pretty preliminary i would imagine yeah the other

01:10:21   thing and i've brought this up before the end game to me for this open for ai type bots or our actual

01:10:28   robots right like that's the form factor i want i want c3po right i don't i mean i want like a

01:10:39   robot in my house who i can tell me to go get me another beverage or go answer the door kill you

01:10:45   right wouldn't that be great like you get food delivered and you don't even have to answer the

01:10:50   door sure your droid would go down there and answer the door and bring the food for you

01:10:54   we laugh because it doesn't seem like something that's going to happen this decade i guess but

01:11:00   it's going to happen right i mean but i don't see how that's what love from an open ai or

01:11:07   are talking about i i wouldn't think so i just don't know what the form factor would be i i don't

01:11:12   know maybe i lack imagination but it really does run into ultimately the problem that the phone as

01:11:20   personified by the iphone and but this the modern conception of the smartphone is sort of an

01:11:28   inflection point for personal computing where everything that comes after that's interesting

01:11:34   is sort of a peripheral to the phone right even apple watch which i kind of feel is a little

01:11:39   hamstrung by that because i think in theory there's no reason that by now 10 years in

01:11:45   apple watch shouldn't be a fully independent computer like the way when you set up an ipad

01:11:50   you don't have to pair it with your iphone and now it's permanently paired and when you upgrade your

01:11:55   phone you've got to unpair your ipad the way you have to do your watch i don't know why the watch

01:12:01   can't just be more of an independent device that you sign into your ich cloud account and everything

01:12:07   goes through ich cloud i'm uh it but but that aside things like airpods they're peripherals

01:12:13   to your phone and it's just really hard for me to imagine i know marco says it on atp all the time

01:12:20   but every time anybody's ever bet against the phone they lose right and i eventually that will

01:12:26   be over but i don't even know if that's over in your in my lifetime certainly not my career's

01:12:32   i think 20 25 years from now will will the phone still be our central device i think that's

01:12:39   very possible i think they will be a lot thinner i think they could the cameras will continue to

01:12:45   improve dramatically but but you need a thing that connects to the internet you need a thing with a

01:12:51   screen so you can read you need a camera yeah all of these things are very difficult i don't see how

01:12:57   anything replaces it other than and i think you you've said before i leave i mean there's a lot

01:13:02   of people who keep saying oh gosh boy people would really like to spend less time on their phones they

01:13:07   wouldn't really actually they love spending time on their phones and that's why they're doing it

01:13:13   and you have to make something you can't just like give them an out you have to make something that's

01:13:18   more compelling than the phone in order to get them to stop looking at the phone right exactly

01:13:24   it's and i know that there are people that if you have to stay on top of your work email it's an

01:13:30   annoyance when you're getting them over the weekend and it's like i am dealing with email over the

01:13:35   weekend and but that's your works problem not your phone's problem that's your relationship with your

01:13:40   company's problem right but for the most part i've written about it with humane in particular where i

01:13:46   kind of feel like they're solving a problem people don't see that they have people love their phones

01:13:51   and they spend time on their phones because they enjoyed the time they spend on their phone more

01:13:56   than they would be if they weren't on the phone so trying to build a device so that they don't

01:14:01   have to use their phone is you know you don't have to spend so much time with that device that you

01:14:06   find so fun right i mean yeah i mean yeah there's definitely good sides and bad sides to it i mean i

01:14:15   think there's been a if it's the same as social media i mean there's good sides and bad you connect

01:14:21   with people you can contact friends that way and those are all great yeah sure you have to read

01:14:27   stuff from your racist uncle or whatever but you're still doing it because it's something

01:14:31   you're getting something out of it right so i don't know but it's certainly something to keep

01:14:36   an eye on i mean i get eventually like i said eventually i expect something mass market from

01:14:40   love from whether it'll be a computing device i don't know i just don't i just don't feel like

01:14:45   this is it i don't know like the way you said with the ming chi quo thing sort of seemed like the

01:14:50   point of it was to say this isn't tsc tm tsmc's fault and i kind of feel like this story i would

01:14:58   guess leaked from the open ai side and not the love from side because i just think love from has

01:15:03   that apple dna of we keep our mouths shut and it kind of feels like the point of it is to say oh

01:15:09   don't worry if there's bard and these other large language model things that do chat gpt style stuff

01:15:17   we've got other ideas that justify the enormous ipo we'd like to have in the next year yeah yeah

01:15:24   it's a way it's a way to maintain interest and right well and keep the fire hose of money right

01:15:32   and right and to maintain optimism right that oh these guys are geniuses and and the future

01:15:37   the future is theirs uh yeah i i don't think that's true actually but we shall see anything else other

01:15:44   than that i think i've i've wrapped up the week in and stuff i wanted to talk about

01:15:48   who was there was there one other thing oh uh we could talk osoka star wars

01:15:57   oh yeah or did you want to talk about uh linda yakarino's phone uh yeah julia borstein uh of

01:16:05   cs csmbc conducted what i an extraordinary interview at the code conference that's the

01:16:11   conference that used to be co-hosted by walt mosberg and kara swisher kara was still there

01:16:16   i saw she interviewed yoel uh roth who was yeah well right before and right before right before

01:16:23   yakarino yo yeah uh did you watch the interview i have an aversion to cringe so i did not watch it

01:16:32   all right so i did read i read the article about it i i watched it i was extremely thankful for

01:16:40   youtube's ability to do a 1.5 speed thing because i it not because i didn't want to spend the whole

01:16:47   but because it reduced my flop sweat time yeah i and i have to give borstein credit it wasn't

01:16:53   super contentious like on stage interviews are tough and i do them at wwdc every year

01:17:00   and they're not contentious most of the time it's largely no i don't know frederigge doesn't have

01:17:09   any kind of disaster on his hands like yakarino does at twitter right there's there there are no

01:17:15   nazis in in iowa 17 beta right they're more comfortable talking points whether we agree

01:17:23   or disagree but on stage is i in my opinion tough because it's human nature to be extremely

01:17:30   self-conscious because there's an audience of hundreds i guess at the code conference in front

01:17:35   of you you don't get to cut and do over it's one take straight through if it goes in an unpredictable

01:17:42   way you've got to shift gears on the fly and this interview with linda yakarino definitely

01:17:47   went in weird ways i swear to god this is the honest it's like a 37 minute video but at the

01:17:56   beginning she says i understand we have 45 minutes so they said that she had 45 minutes for the

01:18:03   interview but at some point about 20 minutes in linda yakarino starts looking at her watch

01:18:08   i swear to god and saying you know i've got to go which i've just never seen yeah i have never seen

01:18:17   in all my days i remember do you remember this i think it was 1988 when old man bush was running

01:18:24   against dukakis but maybe it was 92 against bill clinton but one of the years when george bush the

01:18:30   elder was running for president either 88 or 92 there was a mini scandal where during the one of

01:18:37   the presidential debates he looked at his watch i don't i just remember as a kid thinking why is it

01:18:43   a scandal would not i would want to know how much time was left but it was like right it somehow was

01:18:48   the the scandal was that george bush was bored during a presidential debate and looking at his

01:18:54   watch and it's like i don't know he might have glanced at it it didn't even seem conspicuous to

01:18:59   me but then it was like a thing like where the next debate he didn't even wear a watch and they're

01:19:03   like now he's not even wearing a watch and it's like but it's something to talk about it is a

01:19:08   thing i i know it when i'm on stage at wwdc you know we usually set up a clock somehow like an

01:19:14   alarm clock or something with big red or like i think one year we set up a an ipad with one of the

01:19:21   numerous count up apps with big font that i could see somewhere where it doesn't look like i'm

01:19:28   checking the clock but i can check out as the person leading the conversation of course you

01:19:33   should be able to know how much time has passed because you want to keep things moving you have

01:19:37   a certain amount of time and you need to get in what you want to get in like but craig and jaws

01:19:41   don't need to i mean they're there answering questions and it's their job to figure out what

01:19:47   the time is if craig is sitting there checking his watch every 30 seconds he's either got like

01:19:54   a new app that he loves or he's nervous about something uh but no she linda yakarino was pointing

01:20:02   to her watch saying she had somewhere to go which is just really i just you couldn't make it up it

01:20:08   was like an s this is this didn't happen right before wwdc because i think it would be super

01:20:13   funny if craig had done that as a joke and yakarino's background coming from nbc universal

01:20:21   is on the advertising side and coming from nbc universal we're talking from traditional tv

01:20:27   the big brand advertising right the fortune 500 brands big consumer brands that's her background

01:20:36   professionally that it makes sense why a normal person who owned twitter would hire such a person

01:20:43   to either give her a title like chief financial or i don't know what the title would be but chief

01:20:51   advertising officer or senior vice president of advertising or to name such a person the ceo to

01:20:57   make the ceo you know in a way that apple went to an operations person for their next ceo because

01:21:03   operations is that it really is that important to apple and i could see how advertising is that

01:21:08   important i think that's sort of the background a lot of ceos of television networks have had

01:21:14   their eyes are on the money and the money comes from ads and that's therefore the main business

01:21:19   she mentioned i don't think that this is scandalous but she at several points in the interview she

01:21:25   talked about twitter's customers and it was very clear that in her parlance their customers are

01:21:31   the advertisers not the users but that's true right i mean there is the twitter blue service

01:21:36   but everybody knows i mean it's not keeping the lights on i i as far as we know the only thing

01:21:43   keeping the lights on is them not even paying the bills and not somehow not getting shut off but

01:21:49   yeah not a good interview but i guess and i guess the point that was really uncomfortable was

01:21:53   elon musk shooting his mouth off last week that he's he wants to take twitter paid only or x

01:22:01   whatever you want to call it these days but so that instead of just having an optional paid tier

01:22:08   it would be paid for everybody and i guess you could pay a little and be a regular user and pay

01:22:12   a lot and be a deluxe user but everybody would have to pay which and that why would you do that

01:22:20   and his answer was it's the only way to deal with the bots him and his bots this obviously is not

01:22:26   linda yacurino's idea i mean coming from free over the air tv and when she sort of didn't even like

01:22:32   she wouldn't even answer the question right now she wouldn't and she wouldn't even admit that he

01:22:37   had said that was what was going to happen right right how she was not prepared for that question

01:22:43   i don't know because it wasn't like elon spouted it off be like yeah top of the list yeah he it

01:22:50   wasn't something he tweeted 30 minutes before she came on stage it was days earlier it was obviously

01:22:57   the biggest issue pertaining to her job that i could imagine and she was just unprepared right

01:23:03   she wouldn't even acknowledge that he said it let alone say well we're thinking about it he's

01:23:08   thinking he's pushing that direction i'm not sure that's the way we're gonna go but you know

01:23:12   everything's on the table in the new frontier of the wonderful world of x i don't know yeah she

01:23:18   would also you know she wouldn't address many issues she would because she'd sidestep it by

01:23:23   saying well those were problems with twitter we're talking about x today yeah it's like okay come on

01:23:28   really it's like i wrote on daring fire it's just an untenable situation she's been hired to pretend

01:23:34   to be running a company that she's obviously not running and yeah it's doing things that she

01:23:39   obviously doesn't want to do like proposing to turn it into a completely paid service i hope

01:23:46   or show up for interviews right i mean i don't know i honestly think it would be the best thing

01:23:53   that could happen for the world if they just go paid only right that would be fantastic because

01:23:57   it would sort of complete their demise it as the top of utter shutdown yeah and everybody who does

01:24:07   pay i'm sure will be very happy with the other people and what they're saying on twitter right

01:24:12   just one kind of person would be on there yeah uh

01:24:17   otherwise though i don't know i it's yeah it's it's a you can't make up that company it's really

01:24:25   pretty interesting what did i see i saw a video with elon musk too i saw this yesterday where he

01:24:31   was down in texas somewhere and apparently he shot a whole video i don't even know what it was about

01:24:35   but apparently he's wearing a cowboy hat but he's wearing it backwards and doesn't know it and none

01:24:41   of the other people who are there there's a bunch i don't know what they're doing down there in texas

01:24:44   but nobody else seems to have the guts to say hey boss you got your hat on backwards maybe all the

01:24:51   kids are wearing them that way these days there's some kind of take on the all hat no yeah no cattle

01:25:00   so we had that what else did you say didn't you say there was something else

01:25:05   well her phone like she at one point she showed her oh screen of her phone and uh yes yes

01:25:12   people were trying to determine what apps she had but we we could definitely determine that twitter

01:25:17   was not one of the apps on her home screen i i feel bad for her on that because she obviously

01:25:24   has the twitter app somewhere but it does seem unusual that it wasn't on her first home screen

01:25:29   or yeah you know yeah i mean i would say i would say like as a as a practice you should have the

01:25:35   app of the company that you're running on your own screen uh and the other thing that seemed curious

01:25:42   but i did see a few other people say that they have it there too but she has the settings app

01:25:47   in her dock down at the bottom of the iphone so it's funny i yeah somebody else said that was

01:25:52   strange and i thought oh i had that and then i went looked and i don't have it but i was certainly

01:25:57   willing to accept that was an acceptable place to put it for sure yeah i you know i don't know

01:26:02   the change wi-fi networks a lot or what i mean i guess you can do it from control center but maybe

01:26:07   right but you know but i get i don't know it's whatever she's doing with it where she has it in

01:26:12   the dock she should probably spend five minutes learning how to customize control center because

01:26:18   it's probably i mean that's it seems like that's the whole reason control center exists is for

01:26:24   things like turning turning wi-fi on and off yeah or i think that's easy for us to say but

01:26:30   i don't think that's a big deal i mean i don't think it's a deal at all really

01:26:35   yeah who would expect the ceo of a major tech company to know how to use their phone i mean

01:26:41   i don't know uh i don't know what she might i mean she might have uh you know might be a home phone

01:26:50   work phone person yeah or day phone night phone like a night phone could be

01:26:55   show phone real phone yeah the apps didn't seem particularly well organized either

01:27:04   i but you know again who's to judge i don't know but it was but it was curious because it was her

01:27:10   flex it was something to do with the context of saying that she uses facebook that she's not only

01:27:16   using x and it's like here's the proof she's got instagram and facebook on her home screen

01:27:21   but it really is like an own goal that everybody was like yeah but your own app isn't there

01:27:28   now we think the opposite anyway thank you john i will thank once again our good friends at

01:27:36   squarespace for being our exclusive sponsor for this episode and of course uh you've got numerous

01:27:42   podcasts that you can promote you've also got your weekly column at six colors colors yeah yeah and

01:27:47   i do have the rebound with licks friedman and dan moran and then biff with our good friend guy

01:27:52   english and dan moran as well and my good friend tim and so it has been both of whom have been on

01:27:57   talk show uh last but not least let me instead of doing a whole segment i mean let me ask you this

01:28:04   thumbs up or thumbs down on asoka i for me it's thumbs up it's not the best of the shows for sure

01:28:10   but i feel like for me it's better it's certainly better than boba fett and it's better for me it's

01:28:16   better than konobi too i think they kind of promoted it as like oh no you don't need to

01:28:21   see anything else but i think if you have not seen rebels you're not going to enjoy it very much and i

01:28:26   was a big fan of rebels so yeah so it's you know it's got a lot of payoff if you've watched that

01:28:31   show if you haven't watched that show you could probably i don't know you can either take your

01:28:37   chances or give it a miss yeah i'm a big fan and i think i think it was a underappreciated aspect

01:28:43   of their tremendous success but the ebert cisco and ebert thumbs up thumbs down that's it no yeah

01:28:51   no four star bullshit and and no no one to ten scale or one to 100 scale they'd review three

01:28:59   movies a show and everyone they each had to give a thumbs up or thumbs down too and then the best you

01:29:04   could do is both of them agree that's two thumbs up i guess i would still give asoka a thumbs up

01:29:11   but it i really wish that i could give it that hey hand weight i think it's gotten better too i mean

01:29:16   i think it's the first two episodes were probably the worst maybe yeah and then it got i mean it was

01:29:22   i think it was quite good for a little while and then the last one last two maybe haven't been

01:29:26   quite as good but i still think they're better than the way it started so yeah i mean i'm hopeful

01:29:31   that they'll pull it together because the last show i watched on disney plus was not so good

01:29:37   but i'm with you i thought that the book of boba was terrible that that was not a good show and

01:29:44   the marvel one um secret invasion was just awful yeah sadly which my son and i watched that one

01:29:52   over i guess it was summer but we were both like we got to the end of it and we're like what was

01:29:57   the point of that yeah yeah it seemed like they wanted to do i mean it is the kind of thing that

01:30:02   should be sort of universe well i mean you're not the universe but the your universe is like

01:30:09   it should have involved all of the heroes yeah that's the way you make it much more interesting

01:30:13   is that like you don't know which ones of these are real and which ones of these are scrolls

01:30:18   and they obviously couldn't afford to do that and so it was much reduced in scale compared to the

01:30:23   way it was done in the comic books and you know i mean there are reasons for that i mean it makes

01:30:28   some sense because you can't spend a bazillion dollars on every single thing that you're making

01:30:32   and have chris evans and all of them and whatnot but it just doesn't maybe it's a story that you

01:30:38   shouldn't be trying if it's if you can't do it the way it should be done all right well that's a wrap

01:30:46   okay may the force be with you john may the force be with you