The Talk Show

385: ‘Who’s Heef?’, With Matthew Panzarino


00:00:00   I did the thing where I think maybe, possibly, I was the only iPhone 15 reviewer who didn't

00:00:06   post a single photograph with my review.

00:00:10   The classic John.

00:00:12   I went all in on, I am not going to have time for this.

00:00:17   Part of it though, because it's a rush, right?

00:00:19   The embargo was Tuesday.

00:00:21   I didn't get to set up the phones until Thursday, right?

00:00:26   So we were out in California, Tuesday event.

00:00:29   Wednesday was travel for me.

00:00:31   And I don't want to...

00:00:34   It's like, in past years I've set up a dummy phone, meaning I'm not transferring all my

00:00:38   shit over to it.

00:00:39   It's like, I can't afford...

00:00:41   Just to get it live to mess with it.

00:00:43   Right.

00:00:44   But I can't afford to move my SIM card over and maybe botch it on a day when I'm flying

00:00:48   across the country.

00:00:50   And what am I going to do?

00:00:51   Take pictures in the airport?

00:00:52   I guess you could.

00:00:53   A more talented photographer than me can get beautiful photographs at SFO, but I did not.

00:00:59   So it's a short period of time.

00:01:01   I figure, hey, I know you're going to Disneyland again.

00:01:04   So I'm like, well, Matthew is going to cover the photography part.

00:01:06   We'll let him do it.

00:01:11   I did take hundreds, maybe a thousand photos.

00:01:16   I don't know about a thousand, but hundreds of photos, lots of videos.

00:01:21   I actually captured at one of our parks here in Philly, there was a skater meetup.

00:01:28   In theory, I could have put together...

00:01:31   Somebody who is a talented video editor could maybe put together a pretty cool skateboard

00:01:36   video.

00:01:37   And so I did test it and I'm like, damn, this camera is good, but I did not publish any.

00:01:45   The skateboard...

00:01:46   Skate skating is great for iPhone photography.

00:01:48   I did that the first year they did slow-mo.

00:01:50   I went up to the skate park.

00:01:51   That was fun.

00:01:52   Yeah.

00:01:53   I took lots of slow-mo.

00:01:54   I don't know.

00:01:55   I went in order in my review.

00:01:57   I guess we have lots of talk about it because I haven't podcasted all month.

00:02:00   We could talk about the event, talk about the iPhones, talk about the watches.

00:02:04   And then the other thing is we've waited so long to record.

00:02:07   We could talk about the fact that the phones have actually started shipping to real people

00:02:11   yesterday.

00:02:12   Right.

00:02:13   Yeah.

00:02:14   So there's lots to cover.

00:02:16   I'll just start with this.

00:02:17   What is your high level takeaway?

00:02:20   Yeah.

00:02:21   So I think I felt pretty good about the event.

00:02:24   It's a high level takeaway, one sentence on each of those components.

00:02:28   I felt that the event was solid, but it definitely showed off how distanced the expectation of

00:02:35   the events from media is from what they actually deliver now.

00:02:41   Even more than in recent years.

00:02:43   But I thought it was well executed and overall there were no major complaints that I had

00:02:47   about how they went about it beyond the high level like, "Hey, maybe this thing is different."

00:02:52   The second thing is the phones are great, really solid, high level of deliverables across

00:02:59   all of the major categories.

00:03:02   The watches are pretty much exactly as expected, but really no surprises there much at all.

00:03:09   And not even surprises, but no real like, "You're not going to buy this watch, I don't

00:03:15   think, or should you if you bought last year's watch at all?"

00:03:19   And then what was the last one?

00:03:21   What was the...

00:03:22   Well, they've actually started shipping to customers.

00:03:25   Oh yeah, and shipping.

00:03:26   Yeah, it looks like shipping times were pretty much as expected.

00:03:29   The high end ones slipped a bit, but still relatively available.

00:03:32   I know a lot of people got walk-ins on day one and yeah.

00:03:35   So I think it was pretty positive.

00:03:37   I ordered and I just wanted to check it out.

00:03:41   So for my personal phone, which we can say what we ordered, I bought the black iPhone

00:03:49   15 Pro, not Max, even though my heart even just saying it hurts a little bit because

00:03:55   of the 5X.

00:03:57   Hurts a little.

00:03:58   And when I ordered, I did not wake up at 8 AM.

00:04:01   I was exhausted.

00:04:02   I think it was 8 AM Eastern when the...

00:04:04   Yeah, it was like 8 AM Eastern, 5 AM Pacific for you poor souls out there.

00:04:08   I woke up a little later than that and by that time I could not get delivery yesterday,

00:04:13   but I could get in-store pickup.

00:04:15   Amy wanted the white Pro Max and by, I don't know, 1030 in the morning or so it was already

00:04:24   like a late October delivery.

00:04:26   So the...

00:04:27   As has been reported elsewhere, the Pro Maxes are backed up first.

00:04:31   I guess it has something to do with the camera and Ming-Chi Kuo said that there's something

00:04:37   something with the component supplier for the Tetra Prism or something.

00:04:41   I mean, unless the demand is extremely tilted towards the Pro Max mix.

00:04:46   I mean, we know that's sort of the most popular one, but unless it's extremely tilted toward

00:04:52   that, it makes more sense that it's held up by the one component that's unique, which

00:04:57   is the Tetra Prism 5X camera.

00:04:59   But it's not bad.

00:05:00   Yeah, exactly.

00:05:01   And your first instinct in years past might have been, "Oh, it's chips."

00:05:04   Chips are always the hardest, yield is always the hardest, but like the display yield is

00:05:08   no joke, the Tetra Prism has to be like the biggest limiting factor, just given that they

00:05:13   only make these for Apple, right?

00:05:15   They're not making screens for Tetra Prisms for anybody else, they're making them only

00:05:19   for Apple.

00:05:20   Right.

00:05:21   One of the cool things about the event is the mix.

00:05:22   I do enjoy it.

00:05:24   And most of my friends at the event are people like you and Nilay and Joanna and people in

00:05:28   the media side.

00:05:30   But the analyst side is always good to talk to because they know things other people don't

00:05:37   and talking to a couple of the analysts like Ben Bajaren and a couple other people.

00:05:43   The fear over how many three nanometer A17 Pro chips TSMC can produce throughout the

00:05:49   course of the year is very real, right?

00:05:52   Right.

00:05:53   They're skating on the edge.

00:05:55   And one of my takeaways on that is, and there are, I don't even know if they're rumors,

00:06:01   I almost think that we almost can say for fact that the A16 last year was originally

00:06:08   going to be on three nanometer, right?

00:06:11   Like TSMC's three nanometers slipped by, I don't know, 18 months or something like

00:06:17   that.

00:06:18   You know, and the lead time on this, I mean, who knows where on Johnny Suruji's team,

00:06:22   if there are, I would assume they're already working on things like the A20.

00:06:26   Somebody's in there working years ahead.

00:06:28   Charting that out, yeah.

00:06:29   Right.

00:06:30   I can't help but think as we go into this era where some of the phones are called Pro

00:06:35   and some of them aren't, even though they get the new integer, right?

00:06:38   There are iPhone 15s and they are new and they offer some really cool features, but

00:06:42   as they segment the difference between Pro and non-Pro more, I can't help but think

00:06:47   that this three nanometer production issue is one of the reasons why last year, even

00:06:52   though the A16 was still five nanometer, they're like, let's split it on the chip too.

00:06:57   Because I don't think...

00:06:59   Specifically, it's wafer production, I think, that is really limited there.

00:07:02   Yes.

00:07:03   Because there's only so many people that can make them.

00:07:04   There's only so many that can be produced every year and that's it.

00:07:08   That's all you have, right?

00:07:09   And you have to kind of like figure out your mix.

00:07:11   Right.

00:07:12   Yeah.

00:07:13   Which is why they probably could have charged a lot more for the bigger ones.

00:07:14   Right.

00:07:15   Yeah.

00:07:16   Which is an interesting way of charging more that they just took away the 128 gigabyte

00:07:21   Pro Max.

00:07:22   But basically, I talked to a couple of people last week at the event and they were like,

00:07:26   if they use three nanometer, if they had like A17 and A17 Pro this year chips, an A17 maybe

00:07:32   without the USB-C3 controller or whatever else, I would assume, I think there's a lot

00:07:37   of silicon in the A17 Pro for the pro photography features, right?

00:07:41   With the ProRes and stuff like that.

00:07:44   Take that off.

00:07:45   But there's no way they could get all of the three nanometer wafers that they would need

00:07:50   if all of the A15s were on it.

00:07:53   It's just a statement of fact.

00:07:55   There's just not enough wafers in the world.

00:07:57   So I think that's interesting.

00:07:59   I thought the other thing with the event is as we settle into this new era of new style

00:08:04   events where they're not performed on stage.

00:08:07   I thought I didn't think of this last year, but I thought this year I was like, you know

00:08:11   what this is like?

00:08:12   It is like we're attending a movie premiere and we're just in the media.

00:08:17   And it's a big movie, right?

00:08:19   This isn't like we're at Sundance and we're watching some indie production.

00:08:23   This is James Cameron, the avatar blockbuster that's expected to.

00:08:27   Right, right.

00:08:28   Yeah.

00:08:29   It's like reviewing Star Wars.

00:08:31   I've done the Star Wars movie reviews before you go to the premiere and then you ostensibly

00:08:35   write a review.

00:08:37   Those are their own beast.

00:08:38   It's not like reviewing a Sundance indie.

00:08:41   This is like high grade explosive, big time production thing.

00:08:46   Yep.

00:08:47   This is what I tried to get this into my review.

00:08:48   I hope I did, but I do.

00:08:50   It's just palpable.

00:08:51   And I think it's right.

00:08:53   I think if I worked at Apple and got to put my two cents into this, is this the right

00:08:58   way for Apple as a company to prioritize its products?

00:09:02   I would say yes, even though my most beloved product is the Mac, I think it's right.

00:09:08   It is so obvious that the iPhone is the number one product at Apple and that they do not

00:09:15   take for granted that it is the success that it is in any way.

00:09:20   They are the opposite.

00:09:22   There's the fable of the golden goose and I guess in the fable they take advantage of

00:09:27   it and the goose dies, I guess in most tellings of the story.

00:09:30   Apple is like, has like a full time veterinarian staff around this goose.

00:09:36   Yeah.

00:09:40   This goose is being foie gras to an inch of its life.

00:09:44   It's got like an Apple watch around its neck so that they could monitor all of its vitals,

00:09:50   but they aren't taking advantage.

00:09:52   They aren't taking for granted one iota of the iPhone's success in the world and they

00:09:58   are just peddled to the metal on pushing it forward as fast as they can year over year.

00:10:06   Well, it is their highest publicity event is there by far and away.

00:10:12   I just think that so many people in our universe, the nerd universe, it just doesn't register

00:10:17   with them how much awareness there is in the real world of people that, Hey, new iPhones

00:10:22   are coming out and they only know like three things, very high level things like, Oh, a

00:10:27   bigger zoom and it's made of titanium or something now, which is like in a meteor because that's

00:10:31   what I saw in the commercial.

00:10:32   That awareness alone, just that is amazing for a cell phone.

00:10:36   Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:10:38   I mean, I think the, the brand awareness compare between that and like whatever the latest

00:10:43   pixel is a pixel seven or whatever would be, it would be an insurmountable gap of customer

00:10:49   awareness, right?

00:10:52   Pretty much everybody with access to any sort of internet or TV is going to know period

00:10:57   that the iPhone is coming out and probably at least one, if not a couple of their high

00:11:02   level selling points.

00:11:04   And that's, that's like the efficacy is on the level of the Superbowl.

00:11:08   And in fact, as you've mentioned before, they actually get more viewers to the Superbowl

00:11:12   over in the aggregate because it's a global event and the Superbowl is by and large a

00:11:17   U S based event and Apple does refer to it as their Superbowl internally.

00:11:21   You and I both heard executives refer to it that way.

00:11:24   So they're very cognizant of that fact that this is their, their Mount Olympus of events

00:11:30   and certainly a focused on the iPhone.

00:11:32   I think in that way, when you look at it, the character of the event in that way, it

00:11:36   makes a lot of sense exactly the, why they do it and the reasons they do it.

00:11:40   I, I, I have waffled back and forth on the alignment issue, right?

00:11:45   Because I think that every time these events happen and you get complaints about like,

00:11:49   Oh, no big new thing or whatever's an innovation that isn't dead.

00:11:54   And Oh, this is just an iPhone again.

00:11:56   And it looks the same as last year.

00:11:58   All of those little things are echoes really of an underlying thing, which is that the

00:12:03   way Apple talks about the iPhone is very much geared towards the world with a capital W

00:12:10   and it is a marketing event, right?

00:12:12   At its core, it's a marketing event for Apple.

00:12:14   This is not an introduction of technology.

00:12:17   Apple has positioned it that way in the past.

00:12:21   That's where they anchored it.

00:12:22   Hey, we're here to tell you about all the wonderful new technology that we have invented

00:12:27   or created for you in the past year or two years.

00:12:31   It's still in very much is that way underneath.

00:12:33   If you dig in, there's plenty of meat here.

00:12:35   I mean the, the zoom lenses and the processor, et cetera, et cetera.

00:12:39   There's a lot of work here, right?

00:12:41   However, for the general public, I think the messaging is very much just, look, there's

00:12:47   new iPhones.

00:12:48   You should buy a new iPhone and the press and media that cover it or, and I extend this

00:12:53   out to the long tail of enthusiasts across social media platforms and YouTube, et cetera,

00:12:59   who pay attention to this stuff closely and are sort of expecting it to deliver them content

00:13:04   that they can create or use to create and talk about.

00:13:07   I think that when you focus on that, there is a misalignment between those two worlds

00:13:12   that causes this sort of like, Oh yeah, but like it doesn't hover, right?

00:13:18   It doesn't, it doesn't fire lasers from the camera to like disintegrate my enemies.

00:13:23   Like where is the big new thing that I can kind of focus on and write about and talk

00:13:28   about it debate or whatever.

00:13:30   I don't think that alignment is ever going to go away as especially as long as Apple

00:13:33   keeps up this Super Bowl esque atmosphere to their events.

00:13:36   I thought one of the most telling aspects of just how mainstream the interest is in

00:13:43   this was my wife is a big Howard Stern fan and she was listening to the Howard Stern

00:13:49   show.

00:13:50   I don't know, sometime later in the week it was after I got home.

00:13:54   I don't know what day the she often doesn't listen.

00:13:55   Same day, but they were talking about the fact that they all watched the event and they

00:14:00   were making fun of it.

00:14:01   Like how stupid is this?

00:14:04   That there's a two hour event just for a new cell phone.

00:14:06   This is the dumbest thing in the world.

00:14:08   And they were acknowledging, but we all watched it.

00:14:11   And they're like, yeah, how stupid are we?

00:14:14   And it was so funny.

00:14:15   They were, and they were talking about the segment with Kyan Drance and that's why

00:14:18   Amy called me and she's like, Oh my God.

00:14:19   Cause we know her.

00:14:20   I, I, I, I know her husband, Matt.

00:14:23   And it's just weird when somebody, you know, somewhat socially is being talked about on

00:14:27   the Howard Stern show, but they didn't even remember her.

00:14:30   They didn't remember her name.

00:14:31   They called her Apple lady.

00:14:34   And they're like, I'm sure Kyan got a kick out of that.

00:14:36   Yeah.

00:14:37   But they're like, I think it was the Howard.

00:14:38   It was like Apple lady's telling me about how many nits the phone has.

00:14:41   So what's a nit?

00:14:42   Who the hell knows what a nit is?

00:14:44   What am I supposed to do?

00:14:45   All I know is that phone looks cool.

00:14:48   But that's yeah.

00:14:49   And that's the alignment issue, right?

00:14:50   Like a nerd is going to care about the nits.

00:14:53   Somebody invited nerd.

00:14:54   I'm being very generous with that term.

00:14:56   Like people who care about advancement said technology or will this demonstrably improve

00:15:00   by workflow or, or will it be better for me?

00:15:03   Like people that care about this stuff.

00:15:04   Like they're like, tell me the nits.

00:15:06   Right.

00:15:07   And everybody else is like, the hell is a bit.

00:15:09   Yeah.

00:15:10   But we've, we have, you're right though.

00:15:11   I think you've put your finger on it though.

00:15:13   And as much as there are, so there are complaints from people like the Howard Stern show that

00:15:16   there's too much technical jargon, right?

00:15:18   On the other hand, we are, we are very far removed.

00:15:22   It's not just the difference between a live stage presentation and a totally prerecorded

00:15:27   thing, but we are quite a way removed from some of those photography segments that Phil

00:15:32   Schiller always emceed, where they would go deep into the weeds on focus pixels, right?

00:15:39   And they would like commission these fancy 3D vector drawings, like of tilting the sensor

00:15:45   in three dimensions so that you can see how the light rays hit these focus pixels.

00:15:51   Like Schiller as an optics professor giving like optics 101 presentation on digital sensor,

00:15:59   you know?

00:16:00   And I've always loved that stuff because the camera is so interesting to me and I know

00:16:03   that Schiller loves that stuff too.

00:16:05   And his enthusiasm was palpable in those segments, but there's, it's just no way today they're

00:16:10   going to have jaws up there for 10 minutes talking about focus pixels.

00:16:14   Yeah.

00:16:15   I mean, I think it's great in a way because it's sort of like the people that cared and

00:16:21   nerded out about this stuff got away with talking about it way longer than they should

00:16:25   have over the years.

00:16:26   Right?

00:16:27   Like Schiller would have still been talking about it, right?

00:16:29   Like if they let him, they still have a whole segment on it because I know I talked to him

00:16:32   at the event and he was like super stoked with the cameras and all of that stuff.

00:16:36   He would still be up there talking about it.

00:16:38   And I think that's good.

00:16:39   It shows that there are people inside that like really care about these details and all

00:16:43   of that stuff.

00:16:44   But yeah, once again, the alignment, they're definitely have twisted the dial away and

00:16:48   towards the broader and yet they're still in an awkward spot, right?

00:16:52   They're still in an uncanny valley between the people that care about the underlying

00:16:56   technologies and the people that care about the application.

00:16:58   So yeah.

00:16:59   All right, let me take a break here and thank our first sponsor.

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00:18:47   I guess we should move on though.

00:18:48   It's good to be back.

00:18:49   It does feel normal again.

00:18:51   It is super useful to talk to people off the record again in a way that just…

00:18:57   You can say off the record on a WebEx call or a phone call.

00:19:02   It's not the same.

00:19:04   There's an inherent trust.

00:19:06   And not like I got or you got or we were together for some of the stuff.

00:19:10   It's not like we got any kind of deep dark secrets that, "Oh boy, what we heard off

00:19:14   the record."

00:19:15   But…

00:19:16   Jared: Off the record.

00:19:17   We hate these phones and we think they're terrible.

00:19:19   But titanium gives me a rash.

00:19:24   Nothing like that.

00:19:25   But it's just good to be back.

00:19:28   Boy though, it is like after the event, that hands-on area, my God, it is such a scrum.

00:19:34   It is just unfathomable.

00:19:36   I took a video that I posted on threads that people seem to like showing like the…

00:19:42   I wouldn't call it pandemonium, but it is very difficult to get hands-on.

00:19:49   More difficult than ever before to get hands-on with the products after the event in the hands-on

00:19:54   area just because everybody wants it.

00:19:58   Everybody's on deadline.

00:19:59   All the people shooting video want space.

00:20:02   The video people want space between the camera and the product to get the good shots and

00:20:08   that there's no space to be had.

00:20:10   So for me, who's not on deadline and not shooting video, I enjoy watching it just as

00:20:15   like another spectacle after the show itself.

00:20:18   Jared - Yeah, no, it is.

00:20:20   It's interesting.

00:20:21   I mill around a little bit.

00:20:22   If I can edge in anywhere, I will, but I don't force myself or weight in any of the lines

00:20:26   because they kind of like set them up in little stations and then lines form behind those

00:20:30   stations where they have people kind of demonstrating the phones for you or watches or whatever.

00:20:36   And I just kind of like walk around and kind of observe the crowd and the patterns and

00:20:41   like listen to what other people are saying and then kind of observe, as you said, the

00:20:45   spectacle of it.

00:20:46   Like Tim will come out and a bunch of people will mill, just you'll see this mass of people

00:20:50   just descend on Tim and of course they'll have some sort of like relatively lightly

00:20:55   orchestrated.

00:20:56   Tim meets a really important guest, a VIP guest, and they sort of like talk about the

00:21:00   phones like Tim's never seen them before.

00:21:02   And I'm like, "Look, this thing, oh wow, we made this?

00:21:06   This is amazing."

00:21:07   I love all of that.

00:21:08   That's fun.

00:21:09   But yeah, and then honestly what I do is I talk to other media people who are in the

00:21:12   same boat as you or I where like maybe a part of their team is on deadline getting the video

00:21:17   and audio and whatever they need to get their quick hits out.

00:21:21   But then we are sort of standing back, like I'll often see Nilay there or you or Joanna

00:21:26   and we'll talk a little bit about kind of what we thought.

00:21:29   And then Apple folks and just a lot of the senior people are there.

00:21:32   And so mill around and say hi.

00:21:34   And like that's the reason I still was happy to go to these things and not say like, "Hey,

00:21:39   ship me a video."

00:21:40   Besides the briefing part of it, which is like, "Hey, you get to go and ask some focus

00:21:44   questions of senior people about these devices."

00:21:47   The bigger part of it for me was like there's always serendipity in those rooms, which do

00:21:53   still make it a hot ticket.

00:21:55   It's certainly their size of these events has expanded, the amount of people they invite

00:21:59   to them and the breadth of folks that they invite to them, which is great.

00:22:04   They invite YouTubers and social media personalities and fashion people because they have so many

00:22:09   different audiences to address.

00:22:11   And all of that's great.

00:22:12   I think it's, I have no problem with any of it.

00:22:15   It's definitely a lot different, obviously, than you or I were attending events 10 years

00:22:18   ago or plus when you knew all the players because it was all the nerds covering chips

00:22:23   and hardware and all that.

00:22:24   But you talk to them and you just kind of get the vibe.

00:22:26   That's why I think it's still worth it to go to those things.

00:22:28   It's fun.

00:22:29   It's always interesting to see what Apple after the event wants to prioritize in terms

00:22:35   of what subjects they give briefings on.

00:22:38   Some years they'll do briefings on the silicon.

00:22:43   I did not get an off-the-record briefing on the A17 Pro silicon this year.

00:22:48   It was way more camera specific this year.

00:22:51   Yeah.

00:22:52   Well, to be specific for those people who don't get briefings, which is I think almost

00:22:55   everybody, a lot of people.

00:22:57   The way that they normally would do it is when you talk about a focus briefing, this

00:23:01   is not that they won't talk about it to us or answer questions about the A17, which

00:23:06   they do, obviously.

00:23:07   They'll have a briefing about the phone or the whole lineup.

00:23:11   You can ask any questions you want.

00:23:13   They'll give you whatever answers.

00:23:14   They definitely often phone a friend.

00:23:17   They're well-briefed.

00:23:18   These people are generally not comms reps.

00:23:21   They will be in the room with the MarCom people, but these are generally engineers

00:23:26   who worked in the product or PMs who led iPhone this year or whatever.

00:23:32   Those folks are incredibly well-informed and well-prepared.

00:23:34   However, now and then, you and I obviously make a game of it.

00:23:39   Sometimes we'll ask questions where they don't know the answer.

00:23:41   They will jot it down.

00:23:43   The MarCom person in the room will jot it down and be like, "We'll get back to you

00:23:46   with that."

00:23:47   Oftentimes, they have the answer before the briefing is over because they'll be texting

00:23:51   engineers or people on the teams or they'll have it very soon thereafter.

00:23:56   That part of it is fun.

00:23:57   But the focus briefing around like, "We're only here to talk about the A17 Pro today.

00:24:04   If you want to talk about the camera or the charging port or anything else, talk to somebody

00:24:07   else.

00:24:08   We're just here to talk about the chip."

00:24:09   They didn't do one of those this year, which was interesting because I had kind of assumed

00:24:13   that they would, given how much focus there was in the GPU and all of that and how impressive

00:24:18   it looks to be, by the way, judging from early, early reviews.

00:24:21   So, yeah, definitely, and it was very GPU optimized and my read between the lines on

00:24:28   that is that that's really going to come into play when this A17 Pro generation of

00:24:37   silicon turns into the M3 series.

00:24:41   Because it's the GPU where the M1 and M2 at the high end, at the professional end,

00:24:47   are still behind the state of the art in performance.

00:24:51   Perhaps probably not, I think, performance per watt, but they're so far behind in sheer

00:24:57   performance compared to the high end of high end of Nvidia and even AMD video cards, which

00:25:04   again, that saying even AMD really shows how they're behind in this area.

00:25:10   And it's a good place for Apple to be, right?

00:25:12   Like the two, like in my review, I mentioned that the two areas where Apple is behind the

00:25:16   state of the art is they're behind on GPU sheer performance.

00:25:20   And they made a very, very conspicuous emphasis on that aspect of the A17 Pro.

00:25:27   And they are and might be for a very long time to come still behind on photography,

00:25:33   not compared to other phones, but when you compare them to just $2,000 cameras, period.

00:25:40   You know, because of the...

00:25:41   - Which is like insane, right?

00:25:43   That's their benchmark now, right?

00:25:45   It's no longer like, "Oh, we made an incremental improvement over like last year's Pixel phone,"

00:25:50   or whatever.

00:25:51   And I think that's great.

00:25:52   It's a great place for them to be.

00:25:54   It's a very...

00:25:55   I know for sure you and I have talked to Phil over the years and I know for sure that's

00:25:59   where he wanted to be, right?

00:26:01   He's like...

00:26:02   Because they were very proud when they became the world's most used camera, period, you

00:26:06   know, which they've been for a while or where the iPhone has been for a while, I should

00:26:09   say.

00:26:10   But they...

00:26:11   I do not think they'll be satisfied until they're like essentially the best camera you

00:26:14   can buy for any consumer level of money, right?

00:26:17   I don't know about the pro level, but like as a consumer, you couldn't buy a better camera

00:26:23   and I think that's where they wanna be eventually.

00:26:25   - I will put a link in the show notes.

00:26:27   I just looked it up the other day 'cause it came up on, I think, this is the problem.

00:26:31   I don't remember now if it's Mastodon or Threads or when I...

00:26:35   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:26:36   All your different silos.

00:26:39   - I have one foot toes dipped in Mastodon, another in Threads and I've got a third foot

00:26:47   dipped in, still checking in on Twitter.

00:26:49   - Yeah, you gotta be trilingual to get anything done.

00:26:53   - But somebody brought it up and the first time I had Schiller on stage at my talk show

00:26:57   when it was a complete surprise to the audience, it's still like my favorite segment of all

00:27:03   of those on-stage interviews I've done was I asked him about...

00:27:07   And this is like 2014, I think, maybe 2014 or 2015, maybe 2014, but a decade ago, effectively.

00:27:14   I know photography is important with the iPhone, but do you consider Apple to be one of the

00:27:19   leading camera companies, period, in the world?

00:27:22   And his answer was the.

00:27:24   And I just love that.

00:27:26   I just love that instantly.

00:27:28   And it was a jovial interview, but he got like dead serious when he said it, like that

00:27:32   a decade ago, Phil Schiller, his vision of Apple was the singular leading camera company

00:27:40   in the world.

00:27:41   And I remember when it came out and people were like, "Oh, this is a joke."

00:27:45   'Cause I don't know, it was like the iPhone 5S or something like that, which was a good

00:27:48   cell phone camera, but it's just been a remarkable decade for iPhone photography.

00:27:54   And you know.

00:27:55   - Well, he saw the next two generations, right?

00:27:58   They were probably already working on telephoto at that point and all that.

00:28:01   And he saw where it was headed.

00:28:02   But also, I think at that point, he could make the statement in the present as this

00:28:07   is the camera people use the most.

00:28:09   That's why we're the leading camera company.

00:28:11   But you could tell, we know, you and I both know that what he really meant by it was that

00:28:17   we will eventually be like the best camera you could possibly have as a casual camera

00:28:21   and then eventually maybe even higher.

00:28:23   - Right.

00:28:24   The thing that I don't think was as clear outside Apple or the other leading edge technology

00:28:29   companies on the computational photography front a decade ago.

00:28:32   The thing that was obvious to everybody is that there's no way cell phones are ever going

00:28:36   to catch up optically.

00:28:38   There's just no way.

00:28:40   We know how light capture works.

00:28:41   - Physics works a certain way.

00:28:42   - Right.

00:28:43   And sensor size matters.

00:28:45   And in the real standalone camera world, people have these serious, photographers have these

00:28:50   serious debates about the difference between 35 millimeter full quote unquote full-size

00:28:55   sensors and the four-third sensor, which the four-third sensor is smaller than a 35 millimeter,

00:29:03   but it is, I don't know, it's like 20 times bigger than a camera sensor.

00:29:06   I mean, it's so much bigger.

00:29:10   And the lens size alone.

00:29:12   I mean, you don't have to even know jack squat about photography except to know that if you

00:29:17   go and look at a camera camera, even if it's a consumer type model, the lens is this big

00:29:24   ping pong ball size of glass.

00:29:27   And that's, I'm talking consumer.

00:29:29   And then everybody knows professional photographers, like let's talk the 5X, like 120 millimeter

00:29:35   lens that you would put on a interchangeable camera system is a big, big piece of glass.

00:29:42   It's a big piece of glass on the front and it sticks out from the camera and an impossible

00:29:47   amount.

00:29:48   You'd have to stack 20 iPhones on top of each other to get that sort of down.

00:29:54   Right.

00:29:55   So how in the world is that ever going to happen?

00:29:57   And what Schiller knew a decade ago that we couldn't know is where computational photography

00:30:01   was going and what sort of things they were already working towards to route around that.

00:30:07   And we see.

00:30:08   And the reason like, and it's so funny because like the, the doing of it is hard, but when

00:30:13   you actually just lay out the rough kind of idea, it seems very straightforward, actually.

00:30:19   It's like, Oh, Hey, we're going to make up for the inability to gather light, to gather

00:30:24   more light that we would be able to from a bigger lens.

00:30:26   We're going to use the processor to do more of this work.

00:30:31   And people are like, Oh, why, you know, why do you think that'll make a difference?

00:30:34   And you're like, well, because traditionally camera processors have been these very low

00:30:38   powered things that just sort of are there to package the image, do some color correction

00:30:43   and package the image because those things, those ICs have been part of camera pipeline

00:30:51   since the first digital cameras, right?

00:30:53   Like Canon, Nikon come out with their cameras and Hey, we need something because the raw

00:30:58   image, back then it was CCD for the most part.

00:31:02   The raw image from CCDs was so noisy and funky.

00:31:05   Hey, let's do some noise correction and let's package this as a JPEG and we need a chip

00:31:09   in there to get it done.

00:31:10   Right.

00:31:11   Right.

00:31:12   And then the computer sort of like brought the main line CPU game into this thing until

00:31:19   phones started taking pictures, right?

00:31:21   Because it's like, Hey, these things have a CPU, a true CPU in them, and we're going

00:31:25   to put them into the image path and see what they could do.

00:31:28   Now, of course, there are dedicated components of the SOC that are still dedicated to camera

00:31:34   work, but the overhead of a lot of computational photography is handled by just a raw power

00:31:39   of silicon that Apple has kind of brought to bear.

00:31:42   And so the what people didn't know aspect of it was not just that the CPU was going

00:31:47   to come into play, but that their power per watt of the CPU was going to get so good that

00:31:52   you could do enormously complex real time processing on photos without just demolishing

00:32:00   your battery, right?

00:32:01   Taking five pictures and your camera's dead.

00:32:03   Right.

00:32:04   Right.

00:32:05   And the other thing that ties in addition to the CPU is the neural engine, right?

00:32:09   And the machine learning, which manifests itself in a very big way this year, with the

00:32:14   auto detection of human faces, dog faces and cat faces, and just instantaneous, seamless,

00:32:23   you know, I want to explain this to my readers and listeners here.

00:32:29   And yet still using the phone, I it, it's so automatic.

00:32:35   It's like, Oh, I forgot it's doing it.

00:32:37   It doesn't matter what you do.

00:32:38   You just move the viewfinder around and it just keeps track of all these human faces.

00:32:44   And there were questions from other media people, people, I forget who it was an interesting

00:32:50   thing.

00:32:51   Somebody was asking, well, what about rabbits?

00:32:53   And they're like, well, we didn't train it on machine learning of rabbits, but they're

00:32:55   like, isn't a rabbit close?

00:32:57   Is it maybe close enough to a cat?

00:32:59   And they're like, you, they couldn't get the Apple person to say they wanted them to

00:33:04   say, well, if it's a cat, if it's a rabbit that that particularly looks cat-like maybe

00:33:10   no, the Apple wasn't going to say it.

00:33:12   They were just going to say, we've trained it on dogs, cats, and humans, but that who

00:33:15   knows where else that machine learning pipeline comes in, but you don't notice because you're

00:33:20   not touching buttons.

00:33:22   You're not saying do it.

00:33:23   And it spins for a second and processes what's in the viewfinder.

00:33:27   It's just, as you wave the viewfinder around the world surrounding you, it's just using

00:33:33   machine learning to pick up these things.

00:33:36   And that's a very difficult thing for the traditional camera companies to compete with.

00:33:43   Because it's not like they can just say, okay, we're going to buy the, the stronger, the

00:33:48   most powerful processor from, you know, Snapdragon line up and shove it in a Canon camera.

00:33:53   Right.

00:33:54   And I'm not saying, obviously the camera companies have come a long way and they're doing good

00:33:57   work, but having expertise from a completely different profession that you bring to the

00:34:01   table, a completely different profession and melding those two together.

00:34:06   And that's what's happening here.

00:34:07   Right.

00:34:08   Like the world of machine learning and processor design and all of that melded with the world

00:34:13   of optical design and cameras.

00:34:15   And it sort of goes back to the old adage, like who can get better at what faster.

00:34:19   Right.

00:34:20   And while we have our answer.

00:34:21   Yeah.

00:34:22   I bought, I don't want to spend a lot of time talking about it, but last winter, I think

00:34:26   it was in January or so I bought a Rico GR three acts, which, and I did 15 years ago.

00:34:32   I had the original Rico GR three.

00:34:35   This is a very small pocket size camera camera.

00:34:41   I love my old Rico.

00:34:42   I love my new Rico three acts.

00:34:45   It's small black.

00:34:46   It has a fixed prime lens that is a 40 millimeter equivalent.

00:34:51   So it's not really very wide.

00:34:53   It's close to normal.

00:34:54   I really like it and I love the images I get from it.

00:34:57   I'm very glad I bought it, but man, it is so dumb.

00:35:02   I don't know how else to say it.

00:35:04   And Rico's software is generally well regarded by other reviewers.

00:35:09   I like it.

00:35:10   I think compared to other cameras.

00:35:12   And when I think back to like using other camera cameras I've had over the years, like

00:35:16   the auto focus is good and things are smart, but compared to my iPhone, it's just dumb

00:35:21   as a brick in terms of like in a, in a field of multiple people, like a crowd of people

00:35:27   at a party.

00:35:28   Like I took it to a someone's birthday party and, and the choices it makes on which face

00:35:33   to focus on are dumb.

00:35:35   And it's like, yeah, it using cameras like that, you need to be a photographer and it's

00:35:41   nice and I can do things on the Rico that the touch screen, it doesn't have a viewfinder,

00:35:46   which is an interesting design decision about the Ricos.

00:35:49   But it, for my, the way my eyes work at my age now and with the problems I've had, I

00:35:55   actually don't want a viewfinder even though I know why serious photographers do.

00:35:58   So I like just using the touch screen for it, but you can touch and you can tap on a

00:36:03   person when it guesses the wrong person to auto focus on, tap on the other person and

00:36:08   then it'll stick on that person as you move around.

00:36:10   So it, but you, I need to be the photographer who's making these choices.

00:36:14   It's what really jumped out buying a new well-regarded standalone camera this year is how many decisions

00:36:23   the iPhone makes automatically that are, that are what I want it to do just without, without

00:36:29   me doing anything.

00:36:30   It's like, huh, every single time I pointed at a crowd of people at a party, the iPhone

00:36:34   picks the right face to focus on.

00:36:36   Totally.

00:36:37   And you know, it, it's a weird situation because I think in the past when you bought

00:36:41   a new camera and you got a new feature, the feature was very overtly like better and new

00:36:47   and clever or enabled some thing that you couldn't do before.

00:36:52   And I think that behavior, that user behavior became very normalized.

00:36:56   So like in the camera, when I used to sell cameras and consumer electronics and like

00:37:01   in that game, you very quickly were like, you realized that a lot of people made their

00:37:06   buying decisions on a number go up, right?

00:37:09   Like big number number go up.

00:37:11   I'm going to buy this new camera.

00:37:12   It's got a big, bigger number on the box.

00:37:14   And that was in, you know, it's very heavily like the retail boxes for like a Pentax digital

00:37:19   camera or a Canon digital camera.

00:37:22   Just they had a larger megapixel number on the box and people are like, Oh, what about

00:37:25   that one?

00:37:26   Right.

00:37:27   And then at some point you started having to tell them, Hey, you know, above 10 megapixels

00:37:31   to 12 megapixels, it's mostly BS because you know, you're getting more pixels, but it's

00:37:37   actually noisier and you're going to get a better image from this because the sensor's

00:37:40   larger, blah, blah, blah.

00:37:41   Right.

00:37:42   That's the education part of it.

00:37:43   If you were like actually a good sales or nice salesman, an honest one, otherwise you

00:37:48   sell the bigger one because it's the new one and you get more commission.

00:37:50   Right.

00:37:51   It's more expensive.

00:37:52   Yeah, exactly.

00:37:53   You get a big from the company too, because like, can is like, Oh, here's our new camera.

00:37:57   We'll give you 20 bucks every time you sell one of these.

00:37:59   And you're like, okay, well that's the one I'm selling.

00:38:01   I don't care how good it is.

00:38:02   Let me sell you.

00:38:03   Let me sell you a Canon branded shoulder strap as well.

00:38:06   That's it.

00:38:07   That's it.

00:38:08   Yeah.

00:38:09   The more accessories you sell, that's where the profit is.

00:38:10   So you sell on cameras like 13 to 17% and then the accessories were like 39% profit.

00:38:14   Right.

00:38:15   So it's like very easy.

00:38:17   You got into that world and it was very difficult when the transitioning time came to like,

00:38:22   Hey, we've sort of maxed out the amount of pixels we need and we really need to focus

00:38:27   on like the deliverables here, like the light gathering and all of that stuff.

00:38:31   The conversation got more complex.

00:38:33   Right.

00:38:34   I think Apple's in that place where if you take it traditionally, if you had a photographer

00:38:38   who was very serious about their craft in the digital world, I'm talking about, I straddled

00:38:43   the gap between film and digital.

00:38:45   So I shot my first weddings on film and then shot someone digital after that.

00:38:49   And the digital conversation really came down to like, Hey, I'm serious about my craft.

00:38:56   I'm not shooting JPEG anyway.

00:38:58   Like I'll shoot raw or raw plus JPEG, right?

00:39:01   Just to have a JPEG as culling material, because back then even photography tools like eventually

00:39:07   light room or the tools that came before it or aperture or whatever, it took a hell of

00:39:12   a long time for them to even display a raw image.

00:39:15   People forget, like if you were culling your images, taking a batch of say 700 images you

00:39:20   shot at a wedding and trying to win those down to the good ones, it would take you hours

00:39:24   just to go through them because of the processing power and like displaying them.

00:39:28   So you shot raw plus JPEG at the time and use the JPEGs to cull them.

00:39:33   But if you were serious, you were shooting raw.

00:39:36   And when you shot the raw image, you had more raw material to work from.

00:39:40   Obviously you could choose what band of the exposure you wanted.

00:39:44   You got a little bit more data.

00:39:45   You would generally underexpose them slightly so that you, you got your, your shadow detail

00:39:50   because you could always, or your highlight detail.

00:39:52   So you could always bring back your shadow detail or, or share or scare it, scare it

00:39:55   a bit, make it a little bit more moody, but you wanted that highlight detail.

00:39:59   You didn't want to lose it.

00:40:00   Right?

00:40:01   So these days you take an iPhone, if you shoot raw, you had better really care because the

00:40:09   fact is, is that the raw images from the iPhone actually looked demonstrably worse for the

00:40:14   most part.

00:40:15   And you've got to do a lot of work and I'm not saying it's not a great workflow and there

00:40:18   are wonderful tools out there now that allow you to do great things with raw, but even

00:40:22   those tools are doing a hell of a lot for you to like make that raw image look anywhere

00:40:29   near as good as frankly, the JPEG does coming out of the camera.

00:40:32   And like the raw image offers you more information.

00:40:34   And for those who want to print larger sizes or get really specific about exposure, it's

00:40:40   still there.

00:40:41   And Apple clearly cares about it because they've invented new raw formats and new pipelines

00:40:45   for raw images and new ways to deal with those.

00:40:49   And they genuinely clearly care.

00:40:51   However, for 98% of people, even encroaching a good chunk of the people who really care

00:40:57   about pictures, like a URI or even above us who like still print a lot and maybe even

00:41:03   display their photos, you got to really care to shoot in raw because the computational

00:41:08   pipeline is so good.

00:41:10   And when you take a raw image and compare it against like the JPEG or HEAC image that

00:41:15   comes out of the camera pipeline now, you're like, holy crap, like this raw image looks

00:41:19   terrible.

00:41:20   And you realize how much work is being put into making it look pretty amazing.

00:41:26   And their choices are pretty solid.

00:41:28   They're pretty sound.

00:41:30   What did you shoot on your Disneyland trip?

00:41:31   Did you shoot pro raw?

00:41:33   No.

00:41:34   Well, yes, some right.

00:41:36   I definitely wanted to take some so that I could compare them and see how the comparison

00:41:41   was.

00:41:42   The out of camera raw stuff looks really good because Apple does a lot of work now because

00:41:47   I think the original raw pipeline that they had before pro raw was very, very, very raw.

00:41:53   Like you ton of noise, especially in low light and all this stuff.

00:41:56   It was what they have created a new raw format for that reason.

00:41:59   Yeah.

00:42:00   I remember when they first year they offered raw, I forget how many years ago it was, but

00:42:03   I shot a couple side by sides or maybe I forget if you let you shoot JPEG plus raw, but the

00:42:09   comparison was shocking, but it was almost like a photography lesson.

00:42:14   Like this literally is all we're doing for you, right?

00:42:17   This is literally the raw sensor image.

00:42:20   This is what we're, this is the garbage we're starting with.

00:42:25   And this is what normal people who don't even know what raw is when they just poke at the

00:42:29   shutter button on their iPhone.

00:42:31   We're giving them this from that.

00:42:32   And it's like, wow, that is, yeah, it's like showing somebody a tree that fell in the forest

00:42:37   and then showing them a glossy dining room table.

00:42:40   Yeah, exactly.

00:42:41   Right.

00:42:42   Right.

00:42:43   Right.

00:42:44   And then you have this log with bugs crawling all over it and bark to be stripped.

00:42:52   And here's, you know, a $5,000 finely crafted dining room table.

00:42:55   Yes, exactly.

00:42:56   Uh huh.

00:42:57   And you wrote about this better than I did.

00:42:58   I actually had to issue a correction to my review because I, I, I botched it.

00:43:02   I should have known better that, that it's from effectively from 1.0 to 1.9, you always

00:43:10   get 2.4 megapixel JPEGs in the default mode.

00:43:15   And then once you go to 2.0, then you're getting an exact center, 12 megapixel image off the

00:43:23   sensor.

00:43:24   And that's why 2.0 is still a separate button in the interface, right?

00:43:29   That's why the button for one X is the one that now toggles between 24, 28, 35 equivalents,

00:43:37   which is 1.0, 1.2, 1.5.

00:43:41   But that feature you wrote about it so well, I, it even more clouds like, yes, just read

00:43:47   these three paragraphs in Matthew's review and it'll explain this to you, but it's so

00:43:52   misunderstood.

00:43:53   It is not a digital crop.

00:43:55   So when you're, when you're shooting 35 millimeter, quote unquote, 35 millimeter at 1.5 X in the

00:44:01   iPhone 15 pro you're not getting a center crop from the 24 millimeter thing.

00:44:07   They're still using the whole 48 megapixel sensor for the quad pixels for one way of

00:44:14   imaging for light.

00:44:15   And then they're using a crop.

00:44:18   You've got the exact size to get the 35 millimeter framing and it's a legit 24 megapixel image.

00:44:25   It, yeah, I mean the, the raw images tell the tale, right?

00:44:28   So if you look at the raw images, the raw crop for the 24 millimeter, the base, which

00:44:35   we consider to be the base one X, this is your standard lens.

00:44:39   It's 48 megapixels, right?

00:44:41   That's how many, that's how much information is getting delivered to you, which is effectively

00:44:45   all of it, right?

00:44:47   It's like, Hey, this is your one X, one X means something in nomenclature.

00:44:52   And that nomenclature is one to one, right?

00:44:55   It's like you're getting the whole sensor in joy.

00:44:58   And now obviously we know that it's taking that frame and combining it with a cropped

00:45:06   or lower pixel, not cropped, excuse me, I should banish the word, but a lower pixel

00:45:11   count, combining the quad pixels for light gathering purposes, along with other exposures

00:45:18   and smashing them into one exposure for you every time you pop the shutter button to give

00:45:23   you a JPEG.

00:45:24   But in raw format, you could see, Hey, it's, it's taking 48 megapixels and then it goes

00:45:29   down to 35 and then 24 and 35 megapixels and then 24 megapixels delivering you basically

00:45:35   like the raw amount of pixels that that focal length can cover, you know, with its image

00:45:42   square or image rectangle.

00:45:43   That's it.

00:45:44   Right.

00:45:45   And you mentioned it, I mentioned it.

00:45:47   I'm not sure where I'm going to, I'm still haven't settled on where my default

00:45:51   is going to be.

00:45:52   I wrote my review, I might set it to 35 and I still think I might change that actually

00:45:57   this weekend after we record, I've been rocking the 1.2, the 28 millimeter as my default,

00:46:04   but I I'm like you, I think 24 I'm glad it's there.

00:46:07   And I understand why the lens goes that wide, but as the main thing I'm shooting all the

00:46:12   time, it's too wide, right?

00:46:14   There's a bit of a fish eye aspect to going that wide and it makes scenes look a little

00:46:24   unnatural to my eye as a photographer.

00:46:26   Right.

00:46:27   Like, and I know that famously 50 millimeters is considered normal, the equivalent that's,

00:46:32   that's the nifty 50, you know, and it's really bang for the buck, the best camera

00:46:36   lens anybody could ever buy back in the day.

00:46:39   The advice was, and I still think it was great.

00:46:42   Still is great advice if you're getting serious and getting like a DSLR, just get,

00:46:47   get the cheap consumer 50 millimeter lens, put it on the camera and don't take that

00:46:52   lens off for months.

00:46:54   Just shoot everything with it and zoom with your feet, zoom with your feet and learn everything

00:46:58   you can about shooting at this normal perspective, which they call it normal because it's the

00:47:03   best simulation of what we see with our eyes.

00:47:06   It doesn't seem zoomed in or telephoto and it's not wide.

00:47:11   Everything all the way to 24 is really pretty wide to me.

00:47:14   So I love this and I love that I'm not sacrificing image quality.

00:47:18   To me, 35 is almost the start of the normal range.

00:47:23   In my opinion, I know 50 is supposed to be specific, but to me at 35, I look at an image

00:47:30   of like a room or like an outdoor scene and it doesn't look to me fish eyed at all.

00:47:37   I know it is a little compared to 50 and I have that Riko that shoots at 40, which is

00:47:41   a little bit closer to normal.

00:47:43   But to me, that is a magic range of just photos that just look as natural as you can possibly

00:47:51   imagine them looking.

00:47:53   I love it.

00:47:54   And effectively what Apple's done is everybody knows digital zoom is bad.

00:47:59   Optical zoom is good, right?

00:48:00   Optical means it's real and digital means it's interpolated in some way.

00:48:04   And yes, it might be better to digitally zoom in than to not get the image at all.

00:48:10   I mean, everybody's done this at school events when you're the parent halfway back the auditorium

00:48:15   and you got to zoom in somehow to pick out your kid on stage.

00:48:19   But effectively with computational photography, they're using computational photography to

00:48:23   get effectively optical zoom from 1.0 to 1.5, which is unbelievable because that is the,

00:48:32   to me, it is a super useful range.

00:48:35   It doesn't sound like a lot.

00:48:37   Oh, it's just from 1.0 to 1.5.

00:48:39   But that's the main range people shoot most pictures at.

00:48:43   And they've effectively not faked it, but digitized, computerized optical zoom in that

00:48:51   super useful common area, which is just a remarkable achievement.

00:48:56   Yeah, it is, and it's such a clever way to do it too that the whole reason I shot RAW

00:49:04   when I was playing around with those zoom levels is because I was like, "Wait a minute,

00:49:08   how are they doing this?"

00:49:09   Right.

00:49:10   And like, wait, somebody in the briefing was like, "It's not digital zoom."

00:49:14   And I wrote that in my notes and I'm like, "Wait a minute, why?

00:49:17   Why isn't it?

00:49:18   How?"

00:49:19   And it's just clever and it's obviously a byproduct.

00:49:22   They could do it this year because they introduced the 48 megapixel last year and they were like,

00:49:27   "Hey, we are confident now in our ability to use this, the full 48 megapixels to get

00:49:32   you an image."

00:49:33   And they came up with this enhanced version of their image pipeline to allow to sandwich

00:49:36   these images together.

00:49:37   And it's like, it's super awesome when they're able to deliver kind of like more consumer

00:49:44   choice with essentially zero compromise in this way, because it's always going to be

00:49:49   24 megapixels or above, right?

00:49:51   Like that's the whole reason that they could do it.

00:49:53   And like that, the 2X to me is because of the crop nature of the 2X, because it is a

00:49:59   crop, it's a 12 megapixel image.

00:50:02   I think it makes it a far less appealing lens for me in general, but like the ability for

00:50:07   them to deliver all of these optical choices down below, nobody was asking for that.

00:50:12   No.

00:50:13   You know what I mean?

00:50:14   Yeah.

00:50:15   Nobody was like, "Apple, you must find a way to deliver me any one of these three lenses

00:50:22   at perfect quality with no rasterization, no interpolation, and because I'm a photographer

00:50:28   and I care," right?

00:50:29   Like, when I say nobody, I meant like the vast majority of people.

00:50:32   Maybe photographers were like, "Wouldn't it be cool if like blah, blah, blah, with no expectations

00:50:37   that they would deliver this," right?

00:50:39   Like there's no way anybody in advance was saying like, "Oh man, a photographer nerd's

00:50:43   dream would be able to default to 24 or 35 and like their personal preference without

00:50:49   having to compromise anything."

00:50:52   Because we did not expect them to prioritize that necessarily.

00:50:55   No matter how nerdy Apple's got on cameras over the years, this is a true like camera

00:50:59   nerd feature, like a photographer's feature.

00:51:03   And the vast majority of people may never take advantage of it.

00:51:05   They'll probably just hit the one and take a picture at 24.

00:51:08   That's great.

00:51:09   Like for them to do this, it just, it's a dedication, right, to like the, what they

00:51:14   view as making this as like a real camera.

00:51:18   You talk about it having seven lenses right now, even if you argue that it's five lenses

00:51:23   because the macro obviously is the ultra wide and the 2X is not a "real" lens, right?

00:51:30   I think that if five lenses in a single device, all of those offering optical quality is pretty

00:51:38   cool.

00:51:39   That's pretty cool.

00:51:40   And I think that's a hundred percent just cool as a camera person, as a photography

00:51:45   person.

00:51:46   They take that seriously.

00:51:47   Yeah.

00:51:48   If you just shoot 1.0, because that's the default, and then you're in photos afterwards

00:51:53   and you're looking at it and you're like, "There's some stuff at the edge of the

00:51:56   frame that I would like to crop out the edge of a sign or somebody's shoulder is over

00:52:02   on the right edge of the frame.

00:52:04   It would like to crop that out."

00:52:05   And you just crop out just a little bit.

00:52:08   You're still getting a very high quality image, right?

00:52:11   You're going down from 24 megapixels.

00:52:13   Let's say you crop it to like, I don't know, 19 megapixels or something like that.

00:52:18   That's plenty of pixels, right?

00:52:19   And that cropping in post is there's so much to work with.

00:52:23   There has been with these 12 megapixel images that iPhones have shot for years or any high

00:52:29   end phone camera, right?

00:52:31   That's one of the nice things about 12 megapixel images is you can crop afterwards and still

00:52:36   have a very nice overall resolution to the image.

00:52:41   But the fact that if you know this in advance and you notice the obstruction in the viewfinder

00:52:46   before you shoot that you can tap one button and get it optically, it's just amazing.

00:52:52   One thing I saw, and I wanted to test like, "All right, I think I understand how this

00:52:56   works.

00:52:57   I believe them and Apple doesn't usually bullshit or never bullshits about the camera

00:53:01   stuff."

00:53:02   But let me see an example.

00:53:03   One of the things I took when I was out and about, this is what I usually do is I walk

00:53:07   around the city with the two new pro cameras.

00:53:10   Well, if there's a camera difference, otherwise I'll just have one.

00:53:14   But because there was a 5X and a 3X this year, two pro cameras and my last year's 14 Pro

00:53:21   for comparison.

00:53:22   So it gets very confusing to me very quickly.

00:53:26   So I wrote my review.

00:53:27   I put different textured cases on all the phones so that I could feel them apart in

00:53:31   hand.

00:53:32   So I have a picture of a food cart here in Philadelphia out in front of our city hall.

00:53:36   It's a typical aluminum food cart that at the end of the day, whoever runs the food

00:53:42   cart hooks up to his car and tows away.

00:53:45   It made out of aluminum.

00:53:46   You know the look I'm looking at.

00:53:48   But on the side, there's like a vent and it's like the exhaust for the grill inside

00:53:54   the little food cart.

00:53:55   And it's like a rectangular vent, like a mesh.

00:54:01   And from the distance I shot, because I wasn't trying to get real close to it.

00:54:05   I was shooting the scene of the people lining up to order food.

00:54:09   On the 12 megapixel image from last year's 14 Pro, the mesh of this grill was just gray.

00:54:16   It just was no detail.

00:54:18   And with the exacts from this, my feet on the same spot with the 15 Pro, if I wanted

00:54:24   to zoom in, I could see the exact texture of this grill.

00:54:27   And I was like, this is totally legit.

00:54:30   There's no way that any kind of interpolation could ever get that detail out of a 12 megapixel

00:54:37   image.

00:54:38   So like, how often does that matter where you capture an image and you turns out like

00:54:42   Zapruder style that there's some kind of detail in the frame that you really like,

00:54:48   "Oh my God, was there somebody famous in this restaurant behind you?

00:54:51   Look at this.

00:54:52   Is that the person?"

00:54:53   That image quality is there.

00:54:55   It is not a 12 megapixel image that is fakie faked up to 24.

00:55:00   That is like 1.5x better quality.

00:55:04   I know you think out there, wait, isn't 24 double 12 megapixels?

00:55:09   No, because you're multiplying in two dimensions.

00:55:12   It's like each dimension is sort of one and a half and then you multiply and you get 24.

00:55:16   But it's still, it's more detail and it is legit.

00:55:22   Let me take a break and then we'll come back and talk about the bane of my existence,

00:55:27   that damn 5x zoom.

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00:58:02   What's your take on the 5X lens on the Pro Max?

00:58:05   Okay, so I love it.

00:58:08   It's my favorite.

00:58:10   It's my baby.

00:58:11   I'm probably going to end up shooting 70% of my images with this lens over the next

00:58:16   year.

00:58:17   I know that because I shot 60% of my images with the 3X lens over the past year.

00:58:25   Obviously, you can go into Photos app and you can filter by lenses.

00:58:29   So I did a little bit of that work a couple of years ago when I started reviewing the

00:58:33   telephotos and I wanted to see exactly how bad my telephoto addiction was and it turns

00:58:40   out that I'm just that kind of person.

00:58:42   Now I know a lot of people aren't.

00:58:43   So I'm not prescribing it or saying anybody else will be this way.

00:58:47   I have a special sort of illness that sort of makes me love that kind of work.

00:58:55   So the reason that telephoto for me is so fun and so good when it's good, when it's

00:58:59   a good one, is that I'm a huge margins guy.

00:59:04   So margins, watching your margins is like a photography term.

00:59:07   It used to be used a lot in the old days.

00:59:09   I don't think as much anymore for digital photography reasons, but watching your margins

00:59:14   was really important on film because if you wanted to use the entire frame and print the

00:59:19   entire frame, you had to watch your edges of your frame in the viewfinder.

00:59:25   This is why one-to-one viewfinders are so critically important to film photography and

00:59:29   why prism style viewfinders were generally accepted to be the best by professionals.

00:59:34   That's why SLRs came into existence.

00:59:37   Because when you look through the lens, you want to make sure that at the edges of your

00:59:40   frame all the way around, there's nothing intruding.

00:59:42   No weird branches coming in, no things poking on the edge or somebody isn't running off

00:59:47   of the edge of the frame because it leads the eye out of the frame instead of keeping

00:59:52   it in the frame, especially for things like portraits, right?

00:59:55   Which portrait photography or wedding photography, any of that.

00:59:57   You want to watch the edges, right?

00:59:58   You got to watch your edges.

00:59:59   That's what margins mean.

01:00:01   And so like the ability to watch your margins became much less of a problem with digital

01:00:07   because people forget this, but with film, cropping your photos was hard.

01:00:11   It was tough.

01:00:12   You had to tell the person processing, especially for pro photographers who like doing a bunch

01:00:18   of photos, you had to tell your processor, "Hey, on frame, this frame," because you had

01:00:23   to get them printed first, really, before you saw anything.

01:00:26   And then you would say, "Hey, on frame three or frame 25 here, can you crop this for me?"

01:00:32   And they put the negative back in the machine, go into their software.

01:00:38   This is way farther down the line than the old, I'm not talking like back when you had

01:00:43   an enlarger and you had to crank a wheel, right?

01:00:46   Which I did that too, right?

01:00:48   That was my era as well.

01:00:49   But even when processing machines got better, they had to go in and manually tap, tap, tap

01:00:56   on the zoom and then print it out.

01:00:57   "Oh, I don't like that.

01:00:58   It's a little too far.

01:00:59   Okay, let me do it back."

01:01:00   And they would print.

01:01:01   They would print several dollars later, whatever, you got yourself a crop that you were satisfied

01:01:05   with.

01:01:06   And then the person was like, "Oh, I'd love this in a 60 by 20."

01:01:09   And you're like, "I had to crop this 50% because the margins, it's going to look terrible at

01:01:13   60 by 20."

01:01:14   And so I think there's a take it for granted thing about the margins for people.

01:01:19   But for me personally, being able to isolate subjects or choose the framing of subjects,

01:01:26   for me, is very potent.

01:01:28   It fits with my style of photography.

01:01:30   I like to be able to have what I want in the image and not have what I don't want in the

01:01:35   image right out of the frame or out of the camera, right?

01:01:38   Rather than cropping later or messing around with it later.

01:01:41   And so for a photographer like me, for a person like me, this lens is a dream come true because

01:01:49   it delivers optical quality 12 megapixel images.

01:01:52   This is not digital cropping.

01:01:54   Once again, it uses the exact 12 megapixels at the "center" of the sensor or whatever.

01:02:01   It passes light through the lens and then through a prism and then projects it onto

01:02:07   the 12 megapixels at the center of the frame.

01:02:10   It does its normal thing where it takes several frames and passes it through the image pipeline,

01:02:14   of course.

01:02:15   But it starts with that native sort of raw pixels that you can use to capture your image.

01:02:22   And my overall results from it have been so incredibly impressive over this initial testing

01:02:29   period.

01:02:30   It absolutely blew me away because when Apple first introduced the 2x, it was very much

01:02:36   just like, "I'm glad this is here, but I regret how bad it is."

01:02:43   Right?

01:02:44   Like, "I'm glad this exists, but it's rough."

01:02:46   You know?

01:02:47   Because...

01:02:48   And you're talking about when 2x was a separate lens.

01:02:51   Correct.

01:02:52   Correct.

01:02:53   Yes.

01:02:54   When they first introduced the 2x.

01:02:55   The separate lens 2x was like, "Hey, we have great optics, but we know the sensor's not

01:02:59   really up to the task and our computational skills are not up to the task yet, but we

01:03:03   want people to have this option."

01:03:06   And I think that the camera team was proud of their work at the time, and it was certainly

01:03:10   an achievement engineering-wise to squeeze that lens and all of its optics in.

01:03:14   But I think what they ended up realizing is that if we ever want to go beyond that, we

01:03:18   have to do something different, which is where the Tetra Prism design came in.

01:03:22   Yep.

01:03:23   I have to say shooting with it, it's...

01:03:26   Number one, and I put this in my review, I did the...

01:03:30   I set up the smart groups in photos to count my lens usage over the last year, and if you

01:03:34   read my review, you saw I actually used my 3x lens very little.

01:03:39   It was like 170 out of 2800 photos.

01:03:42   So under 10% of my photos are taken with the 3x lens.

01:03:47   It's just, that's the way I shoot, and that's why I'm getting the phone that's

01:03:51   the physical size I like.

01:03:53   I'm not going for 5x.

01:03:55   And I don't regret it.

01:03:56   I really don't.

01:03:57   But it does hurt me a little because what I've seen shooting 5x is like, I can't

01:04:04   believe this is in my pocket.

01:04:07   Because I know how physically large and heavy 120-millimeter equivalent lenses are.

01:04:15   And like I told you, all of the camera cameras I've ever bought in my life, I have never,

01:04:23   because I'm a pro-Sumer and maybe leaning heavily towards the Sumer part and like street

01:04:30   photography type things, and never did like amateur portrait photography, I would never

01:04:35   in a million years volunteer to shoot somebody's wedding, even if it was sort of a low-key

01:04:40   wedding affair.

01:04:41   I'm just not good at that.

01:04:42   I'm not good at that type of photography.

01:04:44   So all the camera cameras I've ever bought, all I ever, the only lenses I've ever bought

01:04:49   for my Canon SLRs were primes, and I never bought one longer than 50.

01:04:54   I never even bought like an 85.

01:04:56   I've hovered over the purchase button on an 85 many times, but I'm like, "No, I

01:05:02   don't want it.

01:05:03   I don't need another camera."

01:05:04   But I've always had like 28s, 35s, and 50-millimeter primes.

01:05:09   And I did splurge, I bought long ago, I've got Canon's incredibly heavy, and what a

01:05:15   waste of money from my skills, their F1.2 50-millimeter LEDs, which is, I swear to God,

01:05:23   it weighs like 3,000 pounds.

01:05:24   Even though it's a very small LED.

01:05:25   Yeah, it's enormous.

01:05:26   But the glass is like insane on it.

01:05:29   Right.

01:05:30   And you could get their F1.4 for like 300 bucks.

01:05:33   It's such a waste of money.

01:05:34   But I had to have it.

01:05:35   I had to have it.

01:05:37   But I've never had more throw in a camera than 50 millimeters.

01:05:41   I've shot with the 3X, and that 3X is a 77 equivalent.

01:05:45   And it's just not that much more than 50.

01:05:48   I get it.

01:05:49   But I did shoot 170 real images, not like counting test images that I shot while reviewing

01:05:54   the cameras last year with the 3X.

01:05:57   But 5X is a different game.

01:05:59   It is.

01:06:00   I've just never had a camera like that.

01:06:02   And it's like I'm shooting pictures of random people on the sidewalk like a paparazzi.

01:06:07   And it's like, "Oh my God."

01:06:10   This person has no idea I'm shooting a photo because I'm so far away from them.

01:06:14   But I'm getting like a really clear picture of this person all the way halfway down the

01:06:18   block.

01:06:19   It is such an amount of throw.

01:06:21   And the quality is just…

01:06:23   There is no…

01:06:24   I don't know that it's better.

01:06:26   I don't think it's better image quality-wise than the 3X camera.

01:06:31   But it certainly to my eyes seems on par, which is amazing because it's a lot more

01:06:37   pro.

01:06:38   Yeah.

01:06:39   You're talking about like comparing the 5X and the iPhone 15 Pro Max to the 3X.

01:06:49   Or the 15 Pro 3X, right?

01:06:53   You know what?

01:06:54   I actually ran relatively few comparisons between the 15 Pro 3X and the 5X.

01:06:59   Maybe I should have run more.

01:07:00   I don't know.

01:07:01   Maybe that's…

01:07:02   You can only test so much, right?

01:07:03   You only have so many days to do it.

01:07:04   But I did run tests between the iPhone 14 Pro 3X and the iPhone 15 Pro Max 5X, right?

01:07:13   Like I did…

01:07:14   I ran those tests against one another.

01:07:16   And it's hard to tell why it's better.

01:07:19   I feel it's better, right?

01:07:20   It could be.

01:07:21   I feel it actually compare…

01:07:22   It's okay, right?

01:07:23   It compares relatively well.

01:07:25   The 3X is actually not bad at all, right?

01:07:28   It's not bad…

01:07:29   Way better than the original 2X, right?

01:07:31   But I actually think that it's hard to differentiate.

01:07:35   The one thing I haven't done, and I'll just be completely honest with anybody listening

01:07:38   to this, is like I absolutely have not tested, so cannot definitively say I shot a raw image,

01:07:44   right?

01:07:45   A raw, a pro raw image with both of those and then edited them and then determined which

01:07:50   one I like better, right?

01:07:52   However, the HEIC…

01:07:54   What do they call it?

01:07:55   Hike?

01:07:56   I never heard them pronounce it.

01:07:57   Hike?

01:07:58   No.

01:07:59   Do they call it hike?

01:08:00   I think.

01:08:01   I don't think they pronounce it, but I've always said H-E-I-C.

01:08:02   Yeah, I've always said H-E-I-C too, and I think it was a total non sequitur when you

01:08:07   and I were in a briefing and somebody pronounced it and we're like, "Wait, that's how

01:08:11   you say it?"

01:08:12   It would be like if you're talking to someone in the U.S. Justice Department and they started

01:08:16   talking about the Phibbe and you're like, "The Phibbe?

01:08:18   What the hell are you talking about?"

01:08:19   And you're like, "Oh, the FBI?"

01:08:21   Yeah, right.

01:08:22   And you're like, "You call it the Phibbe?"

01:08:24   What?

01:08:25   Yeah, I think they call it Hike, right?

01:08:27   It was Hike.

01:08:28   Yeah.

01:08:29   I can't recall, but yeah.

01:08:30   So, long story short, if you compare a Hike between those two, I definitely like the 15

01:08:36   Pro Max better.

01:08:38   However, it's really hard to tell whether that's the image processing pipeline or

01:08:42   not.

01:08:43   The Smart HDR Pro is so much better.

01:08:46   Fine detail at the edges, like backlit situations, high contrast situations.

01:08:51   It just absolutely crushes it.

01:08:53   It's so much better.

01:08:54   So, it's sometimes hard to tell the difference between is this a processing deal or not.

01:08:58   The only way to do that is to run ROS, so I can't say.

01:09:01   However, if you have a 3X now, you're going to love the 5X because it's just more telephoto,

01:09:09   more choice in framing, and you're not losing any quality.

01:09:12   It's not like it's like, "Hey, congratulations.

01:09:14   You got a 5X, but you got to take the hit on image quality."

01:09:18   That's just part of the game.

01:09:20   I think people would have been not impressed by, but accepting of that.

01:09:24   "Oh, it's 5X, but maybe the image quality is a little iffy."

01:09:28   But in my opinion, it is very, very…

01:09:32   I'm very comfortable saying it is absolutely as good and honestly personally comfortable

01:09:37   to some degree saying it's better because of the fact that it's like a percentage thing.

01:09:42   You are optically utilizing a certain percentage of the sensor, and the more telephoto that

01:09:48   you have reaching out and pulling in, you're going to get every element of your image,

01:09:55   if it's an eyeball or a tree bark patch or whatever, is taking up more pixels.

01:10:01   So it's going to give you more fine detail.

01:10:02   Let's…

01:10:03   Like a scenario where you can't move your feet to get a better image.

01:10:07   You're the parent and you're at a little league game and you've got a seat in the

01:10:11   stands and your kid is up at the plate and you can't move, right?

01:10:18   Or you could, but they're going to say something to you for coming onto the field.

01:10:21   So you frame it.

01:10:23   We've all done it.

01:10:25   I've shot pictures like this with older iPhones where if the iPhone is the camera you have

01:10:29   with it, you just zoom in to where you want to zoom in.

01:10:31   And if it's digital zoom to some lesser range, you still get a usable image, but you

01:10:39   can see it.

01:10:40   I think almost everybody, when you look at it on your Mac or even an iPad where you've

01:10:46   blown it up to at least 11 inches, you can see the sort of smudginess of digital zoom.

01:10:53   To some degree.

01:10:55   It's, in some ways, it's just shocking to me.

01:10:59   Honestly, a week and a half later, it is just sort of shocking that I'm not seeing that

01:11:03   from these images.

01:11:04   I know I shot them with a phone and I know the subject was so far away from me and I'm

01:11:10   not seeing…

01:11:11   I'm seeing detail.

01:11:12   It's like…

01:11:13   That's a binary thing, right?

01:11:15   Like you're getting images you wouldn't have gotten before at that quality.

01:11:21   Period.

01:11:22   Yeah.

01:11:23   It's a binary thing.

01:11:24   And you mentioned it.

01:11:25   They definitely mentioned the technical specs.

01:11:28   It's the first camera lens in any iPhone with an optical image stabilization that moves

01:11:34   in three dimensions instead of just two.

01:11:38   I don't know why that's impressive.

01:11:40   It sounds…

01:11:41   It must be.

01:11:42   Third dimension is interesting.

01:11:43   There's obviously not a lot of room inside an iPhone to move in any dimension, but it

01:11:50   must be doing something because that's one of the downsides of longer lenses is they

01:11:58   let in less light.

01:12:00   This lens is always open at f/2.8, which is pretty good for a long lens, but it's not

01:12:06   that…

01:12:07   Yeah.

01:12:08   I was super impressed.

01:12:09   I expected it to be much smaller, to be honest.

01:12:10   And that's the prism design kind of at work because it's basically taking that same

01:12:14   image square and like balancing it so it doesn't have to pass it through additional lens elements

01:12:19   on its way down, reducing the amount of light that hits it.

01:12:22   But back in the day, if you had a 120mm f/2.8 lens, even a big one, a big fat lens, super

01:12:31   heavy and you're shooting on 35mm film, in the days before optical image stabilization,

01:12:37   you couldn't shoot scenes at night with that lens.

01:12:39   You just handheld.

01:12:40   I mean, you could like put it on a tripod and do a long exposure, which would get you

01:12:45   a great image, but it's long exposures leaving the camera open literally for maybe like a

01:12:50   second or something like that.

01:12:52   You can't do that handheld, right?

01:12:55   So, you know, in your Disneyland pictures, you guys were obviously out at night and there's…

01:13:01   it's tough lighting scenarios, right?

01:13:03   Because it is dark because it's night, but there's all sorts of fancy colorful lights

01:13:08   because you're at Disneyland.

01:13:10   And you would just think intuitively, "Well, these pictures are going to be blurry."

01:13:14   And they're not, they're sharp, right?

01:13:16   Yeah.

01:13:17   And like, you know, obviously when I was mobile, most of my reviewing of the images, my looking

01:13:23   at the images was done on my phones.

01:13:26   And okay, it's a small screen, even if you zoom in or whatever.

01:13:29   But once I got home and I was able to like look at them in photos on my Mac and I opened

01:13:35   them up and started looking at them, it was just honestly boggling, like how good they

01:13:41   were.

01:13:42   Like I included one image in my review of a nighttime shot of a neon sign taken at like

01:13:49   24 millimeters and then another one shot at 5x.

01:13:54   And the difference, I mean, the detail that was pulled out in that 5x shot, I literally

01:14:01   was, I was shocked, like shocked at it.

01:14:05   Not in some sort of metaphorical like, "Oh, I was shocked.

01:14:08   It was good."

01:14:09   I was literally shocked.

01:14:10   I was like, "What?"

01:14:11   Like, "No way."

01:14:12   Right?

01:14:13   Like, "No way."

01:14:14   And like I included a link in my piece to a DNG because I really felt I wanted to make

01:14:20   sure that people knew that like I wasn't just messing around or like exaggerating for the

01:14:25   sake of like making a point in my review.

01:14:28   Like here's a raw image.

01:14:29   Go look at this thing.

01:14:30   Like this is super impressive and it is.

01:14:34   It's really incredible the amount of detail.

01:14:36   And this is a low light scenario, handheld at night where you do not expect a telephoto.

01:14:44   Pete: But you've also got these bright neon beams.

01:14:47   I mean, no, it's not really neon anymore, but it's like Flo's Diner from Cars, I

01:14:51   think, right?

01:14:52   And it's like, so it's just sort of trying to, it's Disney's take on a 1950s style

01:14:57   diner with these neon colorful lights.

01:15:00   And the thing is, when you, your image, it's a great, it is a great example because you

01:15:05   zoom in and in addition to the light not blowing out the image, right, you get the color from

01:15:11   the lights.

01:15:12   Like an older camera, that area, I think would have gone white if the rest of the image was

01:15:20   exposed properly because it couldn't have the dynamic range to capture any of the detail

01:15:25   that is dark and looks like night while still showing these bright glowing lights.

01:15:31   You get the color of the lights and then within the actual signage, there's like dirt and

01:15:38   schmutz stuff that…

01:15:39   Jared: Plant debris.

01:15:40   Pete; Plant debris.

01:15:41   And you can see it.

01:15:43   It's like, how do you, how is that, how is it capturing that when it's right next

01:15:47   to this bright glowing light, which should, in my mind, blow that out.

01:15:52   It's like when you talk about going all the way back to 1977, all of the talk about

01:15:57   the Star Wars movies, the lightsabers have always been a nightmare because it's…

01:16:01   Jared; Yes.

01:16:02   Pete; And it's like, the whole reason Luke's lightsaber is green in Return of the Jedi,

01:16:07   instead of blue, it was like, up until that point, good guys had blue and bad guys had

01:16:13   red and then they realized a blue lightsaber because they wanted to show him outdoors in

01:16:18   the desert scene with Jabba the Hutt and they're like, "Shit, you can't see the lightsaber!"

01:16:25   And they're like, "Well, what if we make it green?"

01:16:26   And they're like, "Okay."

01:16:27   But like, lightsabers have always been difficult in that way, right?

01:16:30   And those neon beams at the diner at Disneyland are like lightsabers, effectively, right?

01:16:35   And it's like, if it's tough for ILM to fake it, how is a real camera capturing this?

01:16:40   Jared; Yeah, yeah.

01:16:41   And like, I saw a lot of those image processing improvements this year too.

01:16:46   Red is still an issue.

01:16:47   Pete; Yeah.

01:16:48   Jared; Red is still an issue, just to be straightforward, because, you know, what I'm talking about

01:16:52   red, I'm talking about like, hyper-saturated red, big red lights or bathed in red light

01:16:57   because of the…

01:16:58   Pete; Red flowers, red flowers have always been a great test.

01:17:02   Jared; Right, right.

01:17:03   And that's because of the nature of CCDs, right?

01:17:06   They just have an imbalance of pixels that capture red light.

01:17:11   So you end up kind of having a problem representing other colors within a flooded red spectrum.

01:17:17   Red flowers, bathed in red light, etc.

01:17:20   However, better this year than most.

01:17:23   And like, the level of detail on the 5X was just in the realm of disbelief for me.

01:17:33   And it wasn't so much that it was like, I don't think that anything, this could ever

01:17:38   look any good at the zoom level, because the 3X is pretty good, right?

01:17:41   It's not bad.

01:17:43   But like, the combination of fine detail, image processing, pipeline improvements, and

01:17:50   the fact that this prism design, I very, very much expected, just to be honest, I very much

01:17:56   expected the prism to be really good at making the zoom happen, but bad at overall image

01:18:03   quality.

01:18:04   I expected aberration, I expected some softness, I definitely expected some blooming, because

01:18:11   prisms are hard.

01:18:12   I mean, you're bouncing light from mirror to mirror, from pane to pane through these

01:18:17   or passing it through them, to be more accurate.

01:18:19   And it's hard to keep those aligned, and then to correct the normal optical flaws that

01:18:25   happen anytime you pass through anything, right?

01:18:28   Any medium.

01:18:29   And Apple does a lot with their lenses already, right?

01:18:32   Because you can see it.

01:18:33   If you take a raw image and then look at their process when you're like, "Oh, wow, they're

01:18:36   fixing a lot of this stuff," right?

01:18:37   And so I fully expected that prism to deliver okay results, and for the sake of more zoom.

01:18:45   But instead what they delivered is like a really viable photography tool.

01:18:51   This isn't just a zoom, right?

01:18:53   It's like a tool, a whole photography tool that opened up, and I think people are going

01:18:57   to really love it.

01:18:58   I have already seen it, as people started getting their phones delivered, a lot of photographers

01:19:04   that I follow and love, they're like, "Oh my God, I love this thing.

01:19:07   It's really good."

01:19:08   Darrell Bock And then the two aspects of stabilization

01:19:11   is one, if you're shooting still photos with a long lens and a maximum aperture of only

01:19:18   f/2.8, getting a sharp image is very difficult.

01:19:23   And this camera absolutely succeeds.

01:19:25   Just point, shoot, and you get sharp images.

01:19:28   You don't have to realize how much technical work is going.

01:19:31   But then the other thing is video.

01:19:33   And I don't think, from what I shot, I don't think you can shoot 5x video while you are

01:19:43   walking.

01:19:45   But if you stand still, you capture great video, including of people in motion, and

01:19:52   you can move a little.

01:19:53   You just can't sort of like chase somebody down the street or walk after somebody.

01:19:58   It's too much.

01:19:59   It's just, it's not, it's just a neat…

01:20:01   Jared Breshears Right, even the 3D, which 3D by the way means

01:20:04   that lateral movement, forward and back, now has at least some stabilization added to it.

01:20:10   But there's not enough throw inside there.

01:20:12   It would have to be like, the camera chamber would have to be like five inches across.

01:20:16   Right?

01:20:17   Darrell Bock Right.

01:20:18   But what you can do definitely, and I did it like when I was shooting the skateboarders,

01:20:21   is you can pan with 5x video.

01:20:25   That sounds like, well, of course you should be able to pan and get a smooth image that

01:20:29   isn't making people feel like it's jittery, like you're riding on a roller coaster or

01:20:33   something.

01:20:34   But that's, that just wasn't possible before with a video camera.

01:20:38   If you took a camera and zoomed to an equivalent of 120 millimeters and panned by hand without

01:20:44   having it on the tripod, it would…

01:20:45   Jared Breshears Yeah, good luck.

01:20:46   Darrell Bock Yeah, it would just be all jitter.

01:20:48   It is remarkable how easy they make it look to shoot 5x video of somebody, some subject,

01:20:56   your kid running from second to third base and you're just panning across and you get

01:21:00   a smooth video.

01:21:03   It is, it's really, really cool.

01:21:05   Jared Breshears It's not just smooth.

01:21:06   It's like unbelievably good.

01:21:08   Like it's really, really, surreally smooth.

01:21:11   I had a, I think I've included it in some of my video review component in my video review,

01:21:16   but I had an out of body experience, to be honest, shooting some video on Casey Jr.'s

01:21:24   train ride, right?

01:21:25   Casey Jr. train ride at Disneyland is set to circle, it circles around the Storybook

01:21:33   Land canal boats and the Storybook Land canal boats, for those who have never done it, you

01:21:37   just sit on this little boat and you kind of ride in this river around these miniature

01:21:42   scenes that are built like in miniature of like Arendelle, the castle from Frozen, the

01:21:49   castle from Aladdin, various scenes, pastoral scenes from these movies.

01:21:54   And the train is sort of elevated above that and kind of goes around it.

01:21:58   And I shot some video of the, of the scenes, like one shot especially of the castle, the

01:22:04   Arendelle castle.

01:22:05   And this is like kind of like a rattly movie train, you know, where it's kind of clicking,

01:22:10   clacking and going up and forth and jerking me back and forth.

01:22:14   And I just shot some video handheld over my shoulder of the castle and sort of tried to

01:22:18   keep it in frame as we moved.

01:22:20   It looks like a drone shot.

01:22:22   I mean, it's so smooth.

01:22:25   It looks like somebody who's shooting a $10,000 stabilized drone of a full-size castle,

01:22:31   right, from like a mile away or whatever.

01:22:34   I know obviously some of its perspective, but it was so cool.

01:22:39   I was like, "Wow!"

01:22:40   I know the shot you're talking about because I saw it and I was like, "This is, it's

01:22:44   just, it doesn't seem possible.

01:22:45   It really doesn't.

01:22:46   It's so, and it just is point and shoot, but it's, and in video in particular, it

01:22:51   is so super useful to people to be able to shoot at a long distance like that because

01:22:56   you can crop video, but how many consumers do you know who even know where to go to crop

01:23:01   video?

01:23:02   You don't.

01:23:03   And, and, and cropping video is so much harder processing intensive wise, et cetera.

01:23:08   You need a beefy machine to do that and all that.

01:23:10   It's so much harder.

01:23:11   Right.

01:23:12   People just don't like what, what people capture in the frame in their videos is what

01:23:16   they're going to keep for the rest of their lives and their photo library.

01:23:20   And so being able to shoot useful, smooth, zoomed in video like that of anything that

01:23:27   you would want that sort of throw to capture in frame is honestly, I, it's like, there's

01:23:36   a part of writing.

01:23:37   It is a life changing thing.

01:23:38   And I think when people hear life changing, they think like, "Oh, you cured somebody

01:23:42   of a disease or whatever."

01:23:44   Like life changing can be in, there are different grades of life changing.

01:23:48   Right.

01:23:49   And I think that if you look at like the traditional video, so I used to this way back in the day,

01:23:55   I used to do VHS transfers and 16 millimeter transfers of video and film to DVD at the

01:24:03   time.

01:24:04   Right?

01:24:05   So you would take these tapes that people brought in.

01:24:06   My grandpa had all these reels of 60 millimeter or my dad had all of these VHS tapes that

01:24:11   he took of us and we don't have VHS player or ours broke and we want to watch them on

01:24:17   DVD.

01:24:18   And so he would digitize them and transfer them through a box to a DVD and burn them

01:24:22   onto a DVD.

01:24:23   And I can tell you, I have viewed thousands of thousands of hours of zoomed in shaky as

01:24:30   hell video, right?

01:24:31   Like, like, "Oh, the kids on stage, I'm shooting from the back of the auditorium because

01:24:37   I don't want to block anybody's view or whatever."

01:24:40   And it's like this rattly shaky video.

01:24:42   Right.

01:24:43   And when you did those transfers, you probably had to watch them the whole time, right?

01:24:46   Because it's sort of like,

01:24:47   I did.

01:24:48   I've seen the things my eyes have seen, Jon.

01:24:50   Let's just say not everybody's VHS tapes are family vacations.

01:24:55   Let me just put it that way.

01:24:59   But yes, I did have to watch them all.

01:25:01   I saw a lot of it, right?

01:25:02   I saw a lot.

01:25:03   I actually really cool.

01:25:04   I kind of got to see tons of 60 millimeter video of Disneyland in the 50s and 60s and

01:25:09   all that stuff.

01:25:10   But whatever the zooms were, they were largely useless.

01:25:13   It was fun that they existed and it's like, "Oh, look at Uncle Jon is making a face on

01:25:18   the ride or on the balcony and we've zoomed in on him and there he is dancing."

01:25:22   But you can't see his face, really.

01:25:24   It's all blurry.

01:25:25   It's shaky as hell.

01:25:26   And like this is like, hey, for the first time ever, that zoom picture where you would

01:25:32   normally digitally zoom or hope as much as possible that you were capturing at least

01:25:36   something that was a memory is now a viable, crisp image.

01:25:42   And I think that's great.

01:25:43   That's a wonderful thing to have.

01:25:46   One of the little features, I didn't mention it in my review, hope to put it in a follow-up,

01:25:49   but did you notice this?

01:25:51   Like, if you do digitally zoom, now this was for both pro cameras this year, 15 Pro and

01:25:56   the Pro Max.

01:25:57   So on the 3X and the 5X, if you zoom past 8.0, which is digital zoom even on that 5X,

01:26:06   but with the 5X, you could get to 8 and still have reasonable image quality, you get a mini

01:26:12   map up in the corner showing you the full frame.

01:26:17   And because it's hard to explain, like, did you notice the feature?

01:26:21   It if you zoom in…

01:26:22   Yeah, yeah, I did use it somewhat because I had noticed it in one of their feature,

01:26:28   like I quickly scroll the feature set page on Apple.com.

01:26:34   They're like, "Hey, here's all the cool new features," whatever.

01:26:36   And I had noticed it in there somewhere, and so I wanted to try it out.

01:26:39   So I tried it out a couple of times, and it basically gives you a video game…

01:26:42   I think mini map is the right word.

01:26:43   Like it gives you a video game mini map of your whole frame.

01:26:47   And I'm guessing it takes it… like if I had to guess, it would be like at the 1X

01:26:52   level or maybe 2X level, depending on how much you've zoomed, and it gives you that

01:26:56   map at the corner.

01:26:57   So it presents a small picture in picture in the corner with a yellow box that shows

01:27:03   you your current frame, like in the larger window.

01:27:07   And so you're able to zoom way out to 25X and then still move around inside that frame

01:27:13   with some idea of where you're headed.

01:27:14   Because previously it's like turning on a light switch with a broomstick, trying to

01:27:18   like find the thing and where is this?

01:27:21   So it gives you a map of where you're headed to shoot the thing you want to shoot.

01:27:24   Right, exactly.

01:27:25   I'll just keep going back to my Little League perspective, and it's like you're looking

01:27:30   to zoom in optically on a kid wearing a batting helmet, but you're zoomed in at like 10

01:27:36   or 15X or something, and you see a tree and you're like, "I didn't even know there

01:27:39   was a tree.

01:27:40   Where the hell am I?"

01:27:41   You know what I mean?

01:27:44   You just start waving the phone around in front of your eyes to sort of get it.

01:27:49   And it's like the mini map is a super cool feature.

01:27:51   I think that the full frame of the mini map is just the full frame of the 3X or 5X camera

01:27:57   though, which I think, because I think the 1X would be too big of a mini map.

01:28:02   Yeah, too big of a map.

01:28:03   I think you're right.

01:28:04   Yeah, I didn't figure it out exactly.

01:28:06   But it's a very cool feature.

01:28:09   I don't know, and Apple even off the record never ever ever explains stuff like this,

01:28:14   but it's like that's only in these 15 pros.

01:28:19   Is it really an image pipeline feature that's enabling that, or could they in theory have

01:28:27   backported it to the 14 Pro when it upgrades to iOS 17?

01:28:31   I don't know, but you don't get it with a 14 Pro.

01:28:33   I mean, it may be an image processing kind of overhead thing, but yeah.

01:28:38   Sometimes it's like these features come to these cameras and they're like, "Hey,

01:28:41   we consider this to be a part of the camera," the tree is saying.

01:28:44   They leave it at that.

01:28:45   And yeah, as you said, even the people we've asked are always like, "Ah, I don't know."

01:28:49   Because you have to find the specific person who's in the performance team who handles

01:28:53   these things that says like, "Oh yeah, this can support it," and they'll never say,

01:28:57   really.

01:28:58   So, it's hard to say.

01:28:59   All right, moving on from the camera, the big change, I put it first, was the switch

01:29:03   to titanium.

01:29:05   I could not be happier about this.

01:29:09   I love the way it feels.

01:29:10   I much prefer the way it looks, and the weight reduction is just phenomenal.

01:29:17   So, the weight reduction is so significant and so meaningful to me that even if I didn't

01:29:23   like the way it looked, I would still give it a thumbs up as the change.

01:29:29   I know they weren't going to do it, but it's like, "Damn it, I've wished for years that

01:29:35   they..."

01:29:36   And I understand why they didn't.

01:29:37   I would have rather had all of the iPhone Pros of the last few years with aluminum frames

01:29:43   than stainless steel for the weight reduction, even if it meant they looked plain because

01:29:48   aluminum is not a fancy-looking finish.

01:29:51   But I do like the way titanium looks.

01:29:53   I love the weight reduction, and I think it feels great.

01:29:56   I think this fingerprint thing is a non-issue.

01:30:00   Yes, you can see fingerprints when your hands are greasy, but it wipes out.

01:30:06   Whatever this PVD coating they're using on the titanium, it clearly has some kind of

01:30:09   oleophobic quality to it.

01:30:11   The fingerprints clean right off just putting it in your pants pocket.

01:30:16   Jared Polin Yeah, most people are going to put a damn case

01:30:19   on it anyway.

01:30:20   I always get it from different people because it's like, "Look, dude.

01:30:22   Congratulations that you run it without a case."

01:30:25   But the vast majority of people are not going to do that.

01:30:27   But yeah, the natural titanium doesn't really fingerprint that much, so I guess if you're

01:30:31   really obsessed, you're going to get the normal oil smudges on it, but it doesn't really show

01:30:35   it in high relief, but the other coatings tend to show it better.

01:30:39   I don't really care that much about it.

01:30:42   I really can't bring myself to care that much about it because yeah, fingers have oil on

01:30:47   them, and frankly, everybody's fingers have a different amount of oil on them, right?

01:30:50   So yeah, stuff fingerprints, like who cares?

01:30:54   [laughs]

01:30:55   Pete: Do you appreciate the weight difference?

01:30:56   I mean, it seems like everybody.

01:30:57   Jared Polin Yeah, the weight difference thing, I think

01:30:59   is, it absolutely is legit.

01:31:02   I mean, I know you and I both read that post by Dr. Drang where he attributes some of the

01:31:07   feel of the weight to distribution, right?

01:31:10   Because look here, the pivot point of the weight is lower.

01:31:14   The internal frame is aluminum and the external frame is titanium, both lighter weight materials

01:31:19   than steel.

01:31:20   I think all of that is obviously taken into account.

01:31:24   It's not that much on the raw like weight reduction front in terms of grams, but it

01:31:30   feels a lot better to hold.

01:31:32   The larger phones in the past, it was such a hard choice to go with the larger phone

01:31:37   because of the more zoom because it was so heavy and so hard to do a one-handed operation

01:31:42   with, but I've been loving it.

01:31:44   I think it is definitely materially, in a way that you can feel, lighter and easier

01:31:50   to hold.

01:31:51   Pete: Yeah.

01:31:52   And I mentioned it in my review and I think it's one of my favorite parts of it.

01:31:56   I tend to use my phone without a case the overwhelming amount of time.

01:32:00   I get it though, 90% of people, although not 90% of my readers.

01:32:04   I did a poll on Twitter and it was like a surprising number of my readers are like us

01:32:08   and go caseless, but I guess that's why they read Daring Firewall.

01:32:12   They appreciate nice things and are willing to gamble on the dropability.

01:32:17   But the best part about this titanium weight reduction is for the overwhelming majority

01:32:21   of people who we all know are going to put their new phone in a case and not take it

01:32:24   out until they resell it and trade it in, they get the weight reduction.

01:32:28   So it's a fantastic benefit even for people who aren't going to see or touch the titanium

01:32:34   because they have their phone in a case, they get a lighter phone.

01:32:37   I love it.

01:32:38   I can't wait.

01:32:39   I'm so glad that they're done with steel.

01:32:41   I can't see any reason to go back.

01:32:42   I will say this though since we're recording after the phones have shipped to people, I've

01:32:47   had two friends so far who both profess that they don't like the way it looks and feel

01:32:53   that it doesn't look anywhere near as premium.

01:32:56   They two people who both loved the polished mirrored finish of stainless steel and feel

01:33:03   that the more industrial look of titanium is a downgrade visually.

01:33:09   So it's like, and I was like, ah, interesting.

01:33:12   Two people in one day who got their phones on day one both said the same thing to me

01:33:17   and I thought, huh, that's why Apple is with shipping polished stainless steel.

01:33:20   Yeah, I honestly, yeah, it's exactly.

01:33:23   I think that the jewel like nature of the polished steel sort of telegraph that you

01:33:28   had a higher grade device.

01:33:30   Ironically, I think that titanium feels more pro, you know, I do too.

01:33:35   Pro devices historically have been brushed steel powder coated treated surfaces because

01:33:41   they're meant to be durable and industrial, not beautiful and jewel like.

01:33:47   So the pro phones of the past, in my opinion, the ID ran much more towards the premium end

01:33:54   of the spectrum than the pro end of the spectrum.

01:33:58   So both higher grade, both you could telegraph this idea of something more, something higher,

01:34:03   something better, something worth more.

01:34:06   But premium is a significantly different vibe.

01:34:09   Premium slash luxury, right, is a significantly different vibe than pro titanium feels more

01:34:14   pro to me, but far less premium or luxury, even though the materials are harder to work

01:34:19   with and maybe even more expensive, etc.

01:34:22   The look and feel of it feels more pro than premium.

01:34:25   Yeah, I agree.

01:34:27   I like it.

01:34:28   I don't know what else they have up their sleeve for the future.

01:34:31   These are obviously the first titanium phones Apple has made, but they've been playing with

01:34:36   titanium for years with Apple Watch, including my, I don't have it on my wrist right now,

01:34:41   I'm wearing a review unit, but my series seven black titanium, I forget if they called it

01:34:47   black or graphite or whatever, but I don't know how close, how much more mirrored they

01:34:52   could get it if they wanted to.

01:34:53   I think the white one, which I haven't seen in person since the event, but because the,

01:34:58   I think I have the same color review units as you.

01:35:00   I have a natural titanium pro max and a blue pro.

01:35:04   Yeah.

01:35:05   Yeah.

01:35:06   Those are the ones I ended up with.

01:35:07   Yeah.

01:35:08   And I have, I got my black pro personal one that I bought yesterday, so I've seen that

01:35:13   one again.

01:35:14   I have, as I recall from the hands-on area that the white one is shiniest.

01:35:19   That's sort of the difference.

01:35:20   Like what's the brighter color of titanium.

01:35:23   Yeah.

01:35:24   But it's still curious to me because the back of that phone, they call it white, but it's

01:35:27   not white.

01:35:28   It's sort of off white.

01:35:30   That's, that's the curious thing to me.

01:35:32   I can see why they went with both natural and white and the natural, especially since

01:35:37   they're just making the fact that it's titanium, the first marketing campaign.

01:35:44   There's a billboard around the corner from me and the only word on the billboard is titanium

01:35:49   iPhone 15 pro.

01:35:50   The commercials I'm seeing on football games are all about titanium and titanium, titanium,

01:35:56   titanium.

01:35:57   I don't blame them.

01:35:58   It's great.

01:35:59   And also no other phone maker out there is making phones out of titanium yet if they

01:36:04   ever will again.

01:36:05   Yeah.

01:36:06   I mean, the titanium thing is so interesting to me because titanium as a material retains

01:36:11   a lot more heat than aluminum, which is, you know, why they did this.

01:36:15   They came up with this whole interesting like bonding process where they keep the interior

01:36:21   frame of the phone aluminum so that it wicks heat quickly transfers heat away from the

01:36:26   CPU, GPU, et cetera, and out towards the edges of the phone.

01:36:30   But I'm sure you've noticed the phone is significantly hotter than the 14 pro.

01:36:35   In my opinion, I haven't run thermal tests.

01:36:37   I think some folks, some reviewers have and noticed that it ran significantly hotter,

01:36:41   especially when charging or like gaming.

01:36:44   I don't think it's a factor at lie.

01:36:46   I think it's probably going to be one of those things that becomes a mini meme for reviewers

01:36:51   over the next few weeks because for the long tail of reviewers, because it's hot, man.

01:36:57   Like it does get hot to the touch, not in a way that I ever found to be uncomfortable

01:37:01   or anything like that.

01:37:03   But my wife had even noticed.

01:37:04   She's like, oh wow, this is warmer.

01:37:06   Like this feels quite a bit warmer.

01:37:08   And I think that's the titanium has a lot to do with that.

01:37:11   It holds heat more than aluminum.

01:37:13   If it's wicking heat away from the GPU, it's going to hit that titanium material and stay

01:37:18   longer and like chill out there more.

01:37:21   So the rim is going to be hotter when you're either gaming hardcore or charging it with

01:37:25   a fast charger with a high wattage charger.

01:37:28   But the fact is, is like once again, almost a non issue for me, as long as it doesn't

01:37:33   affect overall performance, which that's a factor, but it's not a really effective for

01:37:37   me because everybody runs cases.

01:37:39   So who cares?

01:37:41   That's that's the way I look at it.

01:37:43   One question I asked and I was wasn't expecting an answer, but it's, I effectively got the

01:37:48   answer was, cause it, when I pose this, you'll see, ah, yeah, that seems like the type of

01:37:53   question they wouldn't comment on, but I sort of got an answer, which was with this aluminum

01:37:57   interior titanium exterior, was it a cost thing?

01:38:02   Cause titanium is expensive and it's cheaper to use aluminum where you can inside where

01:38:05   it's not exposed or was it really an engineering thing and a heat thing.

01:38:08   And they're like, it's an engineering thing.

01:38:10   Like it was a, like the idea of using titanium in all the parts where there's actually aluminum

01:38:16   inside wasn't feasible engineering wise.

01:38:18   Like it wasn't about cost or structure or anything.

01:38:22   It's the heat dissipation issue was the singular reason for it has nothing to do with the weight.

01:38:27   It's nice that some of it's aluminum because that makes it even lighter than it would be

01:38:31   if it was more, more titanium, but it's the heat dissipation thing.

01:38:37   And again, a lot of times they don't want to talk about engineering problems like that,

01:38:40   but they kind of talked about it in the keynote, which I guess is why they were willing to

01:38:44   reiterate it to me off the record that it was, it's a heat problem and a long, long standing

01:38:49   problem that they were trying to solve.

01:38:51   Oh, heath, heath.

01:38:54   That's what it was.

01:38:55   It totally just jumped in my head.

01:38:57   HEIF.

01:38:58   Yeah.

01:38:59   That's that.

01:39:00   Isn't that the video format?

01:39:01   Right?

01:39:02   Yeah.

01:39:03   Yeah.

01:39:04   That was w but that's how they pronounced it.

01:39:05   I don't think they pronounced it heat for the yes.

01:39:06   For the images, but we were talking about video, right?

01:39:09   So yeah.

01:39:10   Heath.

01:39:11   I remember now I was like, they said he if I said, I'm sorry, what?

01:39:14   Yeah.

01:39:15   Like I was like, is that a, I thought it was like a person's name, like Keith, Keith Richards.

01:39:18   Who's he?

01:39:19   Who's he?

01:39:20   Yeah.

01:39:21   Sorry for the call back, but it just jumped into my head.

01:39:23   You are right though.

01:39:24   It was heath.

01:39:25   I don't know who he is, but let me see here.

01:39:32   What else?

01:39:33   I phones pro you gotta, you gotta roll with it.

01:39:36   All right.

01:39:37   I will say this on the battery front.

01:39:38   A couple of people commented.

01:39:39   I didn't write about battery life in my review and it's something I do.

01:39:43   I think I skip it most years because I with only like five days of testing, I don't feel

01:39:50   like anything I can say about the battery life is useful because with five days of testing,

01:39:54   I've spent the entire time using the phones in unnatural ways because I'm shooting way

01:40:00   more photos and videos than I would on any normal day.

01:40:04   And it's impossible even with multiple phones.

01:40:08   Like I have, they, as my reviewer kit bag had all four phones, 15, 15 plus 15 pro 15

01:40:14   pro max.

01:40:15   I can't pretend to use one of them, quote unquote normally while using another one to

01:40:22   stress test the camera because number one, I can only have my SIM card in one or my SIM

01:40:28   eSIM active in one.

01:40:30   And it's like, well, I am getting notifications on that phone and I'm doing things on it.

01:40:35   I can't say that this other phone is being used normally, so I can't make judgments.

01:40:39   All I can do is comment on the battery life I got while stress testing the phones, which

01:40:45   was in line with previous years of iPhones.

01:40:48   Like got me through the day.

01:40:50   Yes, my battery was way lower than it is with my 14 pro on a normal day by five o'clock

01:40:57   because I've been shooting video and using it.

01:40:59   The screens been on all time.

01:41:01   Like I can look at my, what do you, what do they call it?

01:41:05   Screen time stats.

01:41:06   It's like my screen time stats look like I caught a case of iPhone addiction a week

01:41:10   ago.

01:41:11   Right.

01:41:12   Right.

01:41:13   So yeah, your screen time is up 92% was I think my notification.

01:41:18   Right.

01:41:19   So I just, it's not worth commenting on battery life.

01:41:22   Not because I don't think it's an important issue.

01:41:23   Of course it is.

01:41:24   I think I would notice if battery life were worse if it were dying by two or three in

01:41:31   the afternoon while stress testing it, I'd be like, well, this is unusual.

01:41:34   I don't remember ever doing this with a review, but the, the reviewers perspective

01:41:39   in a five day period is just totally unnatural.

01:41:42   You know, you obviously take going to Disneyland, even when you're not reviewing a phone is

01:41:48   an unusual situation.

01:41:51   It's a repeatable aggressive scenario, right?

01:41:55   Like that's the, that's one of the reasons I love the Disneyland thing is I agree with

01:41:58   you like, look, there's a bunch of factors with battery life.

01:42:01   That's why I don't like put precise times or like do battery comparison charts for my

01:42:07   particular review.

01:42:08   Not and nothing against the people that run like a video test and just verify cause you

01:42:13   should trust, but verify any stats that a company gives you about how their device performs.

01:42:19   Apple tends to be pretty careful about their tests.

01:42:22   So if you run a rough test, that's very similar to what they put on the website, you should

01:42:27   get something in that range.

01:42:28   And I think reviewers have gotten that, but I, I tried like, yes, if even if it was a

01:42:34   phone I'd had for six months and I went to Disneyland with it, that thing is going to

01:42:37   get the absolute junk used out of it during that day.

01:42:41   And as reviewing a phone is no exception.

01:42:42   And in fact, it's like, it's exacerbated.

01:42:45   So I give people a rough idea of like, Hey, I charged, I took it off the charger at like

01:42:49   7 30 AM and I had to charge it by about five 30 PM or whatever it was.

01:42:54   And I take what I normally do is just take a screenshot in the morning and then I take

01:42:56   a screenshot at 1% like when my battery's about to go dead and I'm going to plug in

01:43:00   a portable charger or plug it in.

01:43:03   And then just give people that rough idea so that they can see like, Hey, if you're

01:43:07   using your phone like mad at Disneyland, this is the rough thing you're going to get.

01:43:11   But there's additional factors, which I try to mention and stuff, which is that these

01:43:15   are brand new devices that are still indexing, right?

01:43:19   Like I can't index them fast enough, right?

01:43:21   I can't let them sit for three days.

01:43:22   No, I have to start using it.

01:43:24   I can't let them sit by cloud and yeah, index them and like all of that stuff.

01:43:27   And you got to start using them.

01:43:28   So there's mitigating factors.

01:43:30   So I actually feel okay with that when I talk about battery life in my review, which is

01:43:35   that rough idea number that I just said, because in my mind, that's conservative, they'll

01:43:39   probably get more, right?

01:43:41   Like they will probably get more than that.

01:43:42   I'm fine being conservative.

01:43:44   I don't want to be overly optimistic.

01:43:46   Yeah.

01:43:47   All right.

01:43:48   Let me take a break here.

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01:46:23   What else is there?

01:46:24   USB-C. I don't have much to say about it.

01:46:25   I'm glad.

01:46:26   It seems like there's not much controversy.

01:46:28   Seems like it's just sort of, yeah, okay, new adapter.

01:46:31   I think the main point, you mentioned it in your review, it's certainly, because me

01:46:35   and my wife are the only ones here and we both bought new phones, it won't be a problem

01:46:38   for us, but the main problem people are going to run into is like, oh, I mean, who doesn't

01:46:43   have like a charging cable in the kitchen or something like that?

01:46:47   Well, now you need two.

01:46:49   If you're, unless every single member of your household is upgraded to the new phones this

01:46:53   year.

01:46:54   And anybody out there with kids and stuff like that, now you've got to have two cables.

01:46:58   Or if you've got like a charging cable in your car, I don't know, then you're going

01:47:03   to want that.

01:47:04   Right.

01:47:05   So is this a reason to put, replace those cables sitting around with MagSafe pucks?

01:47:10   Maybe.

01:47:11   But for the, even with MagSafe at like an Apple branded one that charges at 15 watts,

01:47:16   you can charge close to twice the speed with a cable connection.

01:47:22   And those sort of like, oh, I'm like ready to go out the door to run errands or go to

01:47:28   work or something and my phone needs to charge.

01:47:30   Like a lot of the times when it, anything other than charging overnight, you kind of

01:47:34   want it to go as fast as possible.

01:47:37   That's a pain, but you know, it is what it is.

01:47:39   And I guess the downside, the biggest downside is that lightning and USB look so similar

01:47:44   at a glance that it's, it's easy to absentmindedly try to stab the wrong cable into the bottom

01:47:50   of your phone.

01:47:51   Yes.

01:47:52   Which, yeah.

01:47:53   I don't know.

01:47:54   I guess like the multi-cable family has always been a thing.

01:48:00   I just think that iPhones have been like the constant for the past 10 years.

01:48:03   Right?

01:48:04   Like it's always like, oh, I got to charge in a battery pack.

01:48:06   Oh, dang, this is an old one.

01:48:07   It takes micro USB.

01:48:08   Like my, my charging station in my office, which is, I wish there was something better

01:48:12   out there.

01:48:13   Nobody's really made any one, anything that's worth anything, but like the, the idea that,

01:48:19   you know, you're going to have multiple different battery packs and charges and things is not

01:48:23   foreign to me.

01:48:25   And I think probably to most people, I don't think anybody was like, oh, we're a one cable

01:48:29   household and gosh, these iPhones are just outliers.

01:48:32   I think high, like high range early adopters maybe have been that way for a bit because

01:48:38   they're like have been converting themselves aggressively over to USB-C. But the fact is

01:48:42   it's like the vast majority of cheap battery packs that are offered on the market or use

01:48:46   USB like micro USB to charge and have for years.

01:48:50   And so you have always been like a multifamily household.

01:48:53   I just think now it's like that association of, oh, there's a white cable hanging out

01:48:58   of a charger or a wall.

01:49:00   That's lightning.

01:49:01   I'm going to plug this thing into my phone and it's just led to some annoyance so far,

01:49:05   but you know, it is what it is.

01:49:07   Yeah.

01:49:08   One thing I've done for years personally, although I guess now I don't really need

01:49:11   lightning in my bag or I guess I'll keep one because I have a lightning Apple battery

01:49:16   pack, but I've always only used Apple's lightning cables, which are white.

01:49:21   And then when I buy my own USB-C cables, I never buy white.

01:49:24   I just buy them in black or gray or something like that.

01:49:27   And so if I see a white cable, if I see a white cable, I know it's lightning.

01:49:31   And if I see a black cable, I know it's not lightning, probably USB-C or something else,

01:49:36   but not that big a deal.

01:49:38   Action button.

01:49:39   I'm a big fan.

01:49:40   I've been playing with it.

01:49:41   I think it's because if all you want is to mute, I think it's actually better than

01:49:45   the old mute switch, or at least it's a, it's a wash.

01:49:49   It's not worse.

01:49:50   If all you want is a button above the volume buttons that toggles the silent mode, you've

01:49:54   still got it.

01:49:56   It takes enough of a long press that I don't think it's possible to do it accidentally,

01:50:00   but it works fast enough where it never feels like, come on, come on, come on.

01:50:03   I'm pressing this switch.

01:50:04   It's fast.

01:50:05   I love the options.

01:50:07   The shortcut stuff has been fun to play with.

01:50:09   I've got this shortcut I wrote, which I'm really loving.

01:50:12   It sounds super nerdy, but in practice, it's really working well, where I kind of want

01:50:16   it to be like a magic, sometimes do the mute and sometimes just, I just want to jump into

01:50:20   the camera really quickly.

01:50:22   And so I've got, I'm using the device orientation.

01:50:25   So if it's face down, it's mute switch and anything else, it jumps me to the camera.

01:50:34   And it just works like magic.

01:50:36   So every time I'm looking at it, I just take it out and it'll jump me to the camera.

01:50:41   And if I really want to just toggle the mute switch, I just make sure it's face down

01:50:45   or upside down, which is the pocket, like portrait mode upside down.

01:50:50   It seemingly, and some people I've tweeted that out or posted on Daring Fireball, they're

01:50:56   like, "Why doesn't it work like that by default?"

01:50:58   And I'm like, "Oh no, that'd be terrible by default."

01:51:01   Like normal people don't want to, Apple can't ship it like that to 200 million customers.

01:51:06   It depends.

01:51:07   It depends.

01:51:08   Jared: Yeah, the multi-phage like conditional action thing is not for the faint of heart,

01:51:14   I think.

01:51:15   Yeah.

01:51:16   No, but it's very fun that you can do it.

01:51:17   Jared Yeah, that is cool.

01:51:20   Because when I get my phones, I turn the silent switch on and then I never, ever turn it off.

01:51:27   Like I haven't heard my ringtone in like eight years, right?

01:51:32   Like I don't really care.

01:51:33   I don't ever, ever, ever have my phone ring ever.

01:51:37   So for me personally, it was like 100% pure, unadulterated, you just gained a button, right?

01:51:43   It was a big plus for me.

01:51:45   Yeah, and having it jump to the camera, I know, like I wrote my review, but this was

01:51:50   a real eye-opener to me because for years and years now, many, many years, I don't

01:51:56   know, over half of the iPhone's lifetime, they've had a lock screen shortcut to just

01:52:00   jump to the camera from your locked state.

01:52:03   So you don't have to do touch ID back in the day.

01:52:06   You don't have to stab in a code.

01:52:08   You don't have to wait for face ID.

01:52:10   You don't have to slide up, find the camera app.

01:52:12   You just slide over from the right to the left and you're right in the camera, or

01:52:16   there's a little camera button in the lower right corner.

01:52:20   But having a dedicated button, the biggest use case, you wrote it in your review, where

01:52:25   you don't even have to touch the screen.

01:52:27   And so you don't have to alter your grip, right?

01:52:29   You just hold that button up there in the top left corner and you're already getting

01:52:34   it into camera before you're even looking at the face of the phone.

01:52:37   And then the other big win is if you're actually on your phone.

01:52:42   So like you're walking, I'm walking down the sidewalk and I'm like text messaging

01:52:45   somebody in messages and it's like, oh, there's something I want to take a photo of.

01:52:49   I don't have to go to the home screen and find the photo.

01:52:52   I have to go to control.

01:52:53   So I just squeeze that button.

01:52:55   And there is, there's a lock screen shortcut to the camera, but there's nothing like

01:52:59   that when you're already in the phone.

01:53:01   And now there is for me all the time with the button and it's like, this is fantastic.

01:53:06   I love it.

01:53:07   Yeah.

01:53:08   I do like the fact that with the dedicated button, I mean, obviously mine's camera.

01:53:13   What would it be?

01:53:14   Of course it's camera for me, but with the dedicated button, you can open the camera

01:53:19   and take a picture without having to move any fingers.

01:53:22   Yeah.

01:53:23   Right.

01:53:24   Because even with the shortcut, even with the swipe, like you're swiping and then

01:53:26   you're finding the shutter button and then you're pressing the shutter button.

01:53:29   And remember sometimes like the shutter button hasn't loaded.

01:53:32   And so you're like, oh, that wasn't it.

01:53:33   Oh, let me take it.

01:53:34   Let me press it again.

01:53:35   And then also with the long press of the home screen shortcut, it's still like, oh, that's

01:53:41   a long press.

01:53:42   And then, then you've got to find the shutter, it opens and you gotta find the shutter.

01:53:45   So like, hold, open, click, like your thumb doesn't move.

01:53:49   You have a single point of reference.

01:53:52   You fired it off.

01:53:53   It absolutely is faster.

01:53:55   It's amazing for kids because they're always doing something and you're like, oh, if

01:53:59   only I had my camera out or if only I was ready.

01:54:01   And you're over time, if you use your camera, your phone camera a lot, you have this sort

01:54:06   of mental math where you know like, oh, there's no way I'll be able to get it out in time.

01:54:09   Right?

01:54:10   There's no way I'll be able to get to the camera and open it and take a picture.

01:54:14   And I'm nimble and very familiar with iPhone cameras.

01:54:19   And the average person is probably just less so because they just haven't used it as long

01:54:23   or whatever.

01:54:24   It's like the average person using a phone camera is not some sort of screen gymnast.

01:54:29   Right?

01:54:30   They're just trying to like take a picture.

01:54:31   And it takes them significantly longer.

01:54:32   And I think this is going to be an enormous win for them.

01:54:35   For me, it may be a couple of seconds, like maybe a second and a half, two seconds of

01:54:40   additional like, okay, cool.

01:54:42   I've got the time to capture this picture.

01:54:44   But I think for a lot of people, it'll be a significant shortcut.

01:54:48   You know?

01:54:49   Yeah.

01:54:50   It also I've instantly gotten addicted to it.

01:54:52   And now when I go back to my 14 Pro or when I'm testing these new 15 non-Pro phones, I

01:54:57   can't believe that it's not there.

01:54:59   I'm like, what's this switch up here in the corner?

01:55:02   I don't know what this is.

01:55:03   It feels a little marketing spiteful that only the pros got this button.

01:55:10   Right?

01:55:11   Like it's not like advanced Apple silicon that enables a button.

01:55:16   Like they could have put this button on all the iPhones 15.

01:55:20   They could have.

01:55:21   Yeah.

01:55:22   It's a little bit of a, hey, you get these nice features a year early.

01:55:25   Like I'll eat my hat if this button isn't there on the 16s that aren't Pro next year.

01:55:30   It's a really nice thing though this year.

01:55:32   No, it's this button can only be enabled by titanium.

01:55:35   Yes.

01:55:36   Yes.

01:55:37   The button only works.

01:55:38   If you put it on a non-titanium phone, it snaps the phone in half.

01:55:42   A big, big, big part of the keynote and it's manifested itself in Apple dropping all of

01:55:48   its leather products is the environmental aspect of everything Apple does.

01:55:54   And you in particular played a part in Apple get spreading the message they want to spread.

01:55:58   You had Lisa Jackson on stage at tech crunch disrupt this week.

01:56:02   Yes.

01:56:03   Yeah.

01:56:04   It was good conversation.

01:56:06   How did that go?

01:56:07   I had her on the podcast years ago.

01:56:08   She's a, she's just delightful.

01:56:10   Like off camera, off stage.

01:56:12   Right.

01:56:13   Remarkably.

01:56:14   Yeah.

01:56:15   What you see is what you get there.

01:56:16   And I think it was, yeah, it's great.

01:56:18   It was nice for her to come by.

01:56:20   It was fun to talk.

01:56:21   We had, I had interviewed her in 2017, I believe also at a disrupt and they were sort of just

01:56:28   a couple of years into her, like, or to developing their plan and kind of announcing to the world

01:56:34   and getting more robust about reporting.

01:56:36   Cause previously they had some pretty lightweight environmental reports on the website that

01:56:41   at that stage before Lisa joined were largely reactionary.

01:56:45   Like people were kind of like on them about come some component of their environmental

01:56:50   footprint.

01:56:51   And they were like, okay, well we'll publish this thing on our website that kind of like

01:56:54   outlined some of the work we're doing or some of the things that we do and give some transparency

01:56:59   and kudos to them for offering any transparency at all.

01:57:01   That's great because a lot of companies just don't say anything about it, but they really

01:57:05   didn't have a cohesive coherent message about Apple, who is ostensibly a company that talks

01:57:13   a lot about social responsibility towards reducing their footprint in some material

01:57:19   way over the next decade or more.

01:57:21   When Lisa came, there was no, what they call their 2030 plan, which is like reduce carbon

01:57:26   footprint to net neutral by 2030 across all of Apple and all of its products.

01:57:31   She created that all of that stuff.

01:57:32   But it was really, it was a good interview because like I definitely, I definitely wanted

01:57:37   to tease out, which I think it did some things about their specific plans and how they think

01:57:42   about balancing out things like carbon offsets, which is notoriously like how companies greenwash

01:57:48   their efforts and Apple uses only 22% carbon offsets and the vast majority of what they

01:57:54   do is actual real things that they're doing.

01:57:57   So there's the thing that they call it reduce or restore and like reducing is the work any

01:58:02   company does to actually reduce the amount of energy that they use, the manufacturing

01:58:08   footprint, all of that stuff.

01:58:09   It's real physical changes in how bad their stuff is for the environment basically.

01:58:15   And reducing that is a huge portion of what Apple does far more than most corporations,

01:58:19   which tend to rely to the vast majority on carbon offsetting, which is like, okay, we

01:58:24   bought a bunch of rainforest and preserve, we're preserving it.

01:58:26   Or they work through brokers to like preserve or replace their usage by donating to X, Y,

01:58:34   or Z.

01:58:35   So anyhow, it was good.

01:58:36   But I think the fun bit for me was I wanted to ask her about like why she joined Apple

01:58:43   because you could talk about the numbers, but people's eyes tend to glaze over after

01:58:47   a while and you want to like kind of bring a human aspect into it.

01:58:50   And so I did get to talk to her a little bit about why she joined Apple because she was

01:58:53   at the EPA and led the EPA and had a reputation.

01:58:57   She was at Obama's EPA, had a pretty big role and reputation and a career and all of this

01:59:04   stuff and cache.

01:59:05   And I think that in some people's eyes at the time, her hire for Apple by Apple was

01:59:10   very much like a, "Oh, we hired this person from the EPA, you should..."

01:59:14   It's like a PR move, right?

01:59:17   We're building this reputation for being a green company by trading on her rep, right?

01:59:24   And I literally asked her about that.

01:59:25   I was like, "Did you have a trepidation that they were just trading on your reputation

01:59:30   with the EPA to like kind of bring you in to be this figurehead that actually had no

01:59:35   real authority?"

01:59:36   And what was the pitch like to get you to come there?

01:59:39   And her answer was basically like, it was Tim.

01:59:42   Like him personally, it wasn't some recruiter, it wasn't somebody in HR, it wasn't somebody

01:59:46   trying to like build out a strategy.

01:59:49   It was literally Tim who came to her and said, and she was like, "I won't tell you the exact

01:59:55   words you use, I would keep some of his secrets."

01:59:57   But basically it was, "We want you to come here and build this and you will have real

02:00:01   power to do it.

02:00:03   You will report directly to me.

02:00:05   You won't be in some sort of weird offshoot of the organization that has no influence

02:00:10   across the breadth of the company."

02:00:12   'Cause she's like, "If I'm gonna do this, it has to be everywhere, right?

02:00:15   It has to be in manufacturing, supply chain, all of this stuff.

02:00:18   It's not gonna be some sort of thing where I publish one PDF a year and deliver one conference

02:00:24   appearance a year and that's Apple's efforts in this regard."

02:00:27   - Right.

02:00:28   Or like at the end of the development project of the iPhone 15, they're gonna dump a bunch

02:00:35   of information on her desk and it's up to her to find a green story to come out of it.

02:00:40   You know, she's off in a corner.

02:00:42   No, but that's the cynical way to look at it.

02:00:44   And it's certainly what I, you know, I would have had the same questions for her.

02:00:48   It's obvious though, going back to our off the record briefings, talking to people at

02:00:54   Apple last week in Cupertino, it is very obviously infused their decision-making in the way that

02:01:01   everybody's always known from the founding of the company in 1977, that the way things

02:01:09   look and feel is very important to Apple.

02:01:12   It is just a founding priority that comes right from Steve Jobs, right?

02:01:17   That making things look good is important to Apple.

02:01:22   Making things environmentally right is right there at that level and infuses all of the

02:01:27   stuff that they do.

02:01:28   - Mm-hmm.

02:01:29   Yeah.

02:01:30   - And we got into that a little bit too because, oh, she was, it was a funny anecdote 'cause

02:01:34   we were, Disrupt is held, it was held this year at Moscone West, which obviously is where

02:01:41   many, many Mac worlds and Apple events have happened over the years.

02:01:46   And she was saying that at the time that she joined, so when Apple, at least on the executive

02:01:52   level or some level, when you join Apple, your first day is shadowing your boss.

02:01:57   So your first day is like you go with your boss and hang out and see what their day is

02:02:02   like and do all that.

02:02:04   And so she said, "My first day, I couldn't hang with Tim because he was doing the keynote."

02:02:09   (both laugh)

02:02:10   - Right?

02:02:11   That's good.

02:02:12   It's just she's like, "I came and I saw it."

02:02:13   And she goes, "Actually, my first day at Apple was literally 40 feet from where we were doing

02:02:18   our interview on stage."

02:02:19   So she's like, "A little nostalgic for me.

02:02:21   This is where I had my first day."

02:02:23   But she said, "I remember my conversation with Tim backstage because I told him, 'So

02:02:28   Tim, okay, what do you want me to do?

02:02:30   What do you want me to get started on?

02:02:32   What do you want us to do?'

02:02:33   And he said to her, 'That's what I want you to tell me.

02:02:38   I am not prescribing this.

02:02:39   I'm telling you to tell us what to do now, directly.'"

02:02:44   And that kind of went from there, she says, into permeating the different departments

02:02:52   at Apple.

02:02:53   She said her team, her specific team is small because they didn't want to create this pocket

02:02:57   organization that was like, "Oh, those guys in environmental are up in our group again

02:03:02   about this stuff or X, Y, Z."

02:03:04   Instead, it was taking a small team, generating policies and generating ideas in conjunction

02:03:12   with the people at the root level of all of the new products that they were going to make

02:03:16   from then, from that point on.

02:03:18   And that goes from industrial design to processors to engineering, software engineering, all

02:03:24   of it, to say, "How are we going to fix this?"

02:03:27   How they ship products, right?

02:03:29   There's a huge, huge change this year where they're shipping way more products on boats

02:03:34   and it's like a 30 to 1 reduction in the carbon emitted to get…

02:03:39   I mean, let's face it, they're coming from China and Vietnam to the West Coast of

02:03:45   the U.S. and I think they fit the equivalent of…

02:03:50   You know, like when you look at one of those big shipping boats and they're just full

02:03:54   of those tractor trailer-sized boxes, three of those boxes fit on an airplane, equivalent.

02:04:02   They don't put the boxes on there, but the cargo of three, about three of those fit on

02:04:08   the cargo-sized planes that fly across the Pacific.

02:04:12   I don't know how many of those boxes fit on those boats, but it's hundreds, a thousand?

02:04:17   I don't know.

02:04:18   They're enormous.

02:04:19   Those boats are skyscraper-sized.

02:04:21   They're like skyscrapers tilted sideways going across the Pacific.

02:04:25   Obviously, the logistics of that, this is right up Tim Cook and Jeff Williams' alley,

02:04:29   the operational aspect of, "Hey, we don't get to decide two days in advance what's

02:04:35   coming from China.

02:04:36   We're now going to do this at a much slower scale where we've got to wait for this giant

02:04:41   boat to go all the way across the big ocean, the Pacific Ocean."

02:04:46   But there's no way that happens without a full buy-in across the company at the operational

02:04:51   level.

02:04:52   And we know, I mean, it's literally the operations genius is the guy who's been

02:04:55   the CEO of the company since Steve Jobs died.

02:04:58   I mean, operations are central to them.

02:05:02   And I guess the comparison would be, and again, not to disparage the people, the fine, fine

02:05:06   people who I definitely don't want to ever make an enemy of in Apple legal.

02:05:11   But Apple legal, when you talk to people at Apple, they don't talk about like, "Oh,

02:05:17   but legal said this, legal said that."

02:05:19   And obviously, there are aspects of Apple that are embroiled in legal stuff for the

02:05:22   whole Qualcomm patent thing with the modems and stuff.

02:05:25   I mean, I know that everybody who works at Apple eventually has to worry about patents

02:05:28   and some stuff with legal.

02:05:30   But legal is a department that you hope never to hear from, right?

02:05:34   And Lisa Jackson's environmental stuff is not like that.

02:05:37   Like, "Oh, God, here comes, she's going to ding us about the tape we're using on

02:05:42   the boxes or whatever."

02:05:43   No, it's like a central infused part of everything Apple does.

02:05:47   I have been part of corporations long enough to understand that no initiative that touches

02:05:53   so many departments like this gets anywhere without complete top-down buy-in.

02:05:59   It's not Tim saying, "Well, if we can do it in a cost-effective manner or if we can

02:06:04   do it," it's, "No, this is what we're doing, so then let's figure it out."

02:06:09   And I think it has borne out in their ability to execute because the company grew 67% in

02:06:15   profits at the same time they were reducing their carbon footprint by like double-digit

02:06:19   percentages, right?

02:06:21   And I think that's part of what she said she wanted to do is to demonstrate to the

02:06:25   broader ecosystem that you can make more money, because that's what corporations are built

02:06:32   to do, let's just be honest.

02:06:34   You can make more money while still doing this.

02:06:36   In fact, not just while doing it, but it can in fact sometimes be more profitable to do

02:06:41   it this way.

02:06:42   You just have to put in the work, right?

02:06:44   And that's why they're being so transparent about all of it and trying to teach people.

02:06:48   To make these truly transformational changes.

02:06:50   And again, shipping way more stuff on enormous boats as opposed to really fast airplanes

02:06:58   is an enormous change.

02:06:59   It's just enormous.

02:07:00   I mean, think about the lead time, the amount of additional lead time.

02:07:05   Apple famously only tries to keep roughly two weeks' worth of inventory in their retail

02:07:10   pipeline.

02:07:11   And so to do that with boats instead of planes is just an incredible feat of timing and impressions

02:07:18   and all of that stuff.

02:07:19   Right.

02:07:20   I think it is true too that even if you're a completely cynical Apple shareholder who

02:07:26   doesn't even give a shit about the future of the environment and carbon in the atmosphere,

02:07:32   and all you're interested in is Apple stock go up.

02:07:36   This is, I believe there is a truly strong case to be made that this is actually in your

02:07:43   interest too, purely as a cynical bottom line focused person.

02:07:48   Because as the parent of a college student, I care about the environment.

02:07:52   I've always voted on this issue.

02:07:54   I've bought hook, line, and sinker into the whole carbon argument from at least, I don't

02:08:00   remember not thinking about it, like back to the nineties.

02:08:03   The science seemed overwhelming then, and now we see the evidence now.

02:08:07   I care.

02:08:08   But the degree to which younger people, the generation my kids are in, your kids are in,

02:08:13   that they truly care about environmental issues cannot be overstated.

02:08:21   It wasn't something when I was in college, nobody gave a shit whether the stuff you bought

02:08:25   was packaged in plastic or whatever, what the carbon footprint is.

02:08:31   Younger people do care.

02:08:32   They really do.

02:08:33   This is not something that, and none of these things, the packaging, the materials, the

02:08:38   way they source the electricity, the shipping, none of this stuff is easy or can be flipped

02:08:43   on a switch.

02:08:44   So I think there's an argument to be made that way.

02:08:47   And I think the fact that Lisa Jackson is still there and still a prominent executive,

02:08:53   it just shows that it really is by him.

02:08:55   Anyway.

02:08:56   Jared: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

02:08:57   Steven: I think that's about enough.

02:08:58   I know we didn't get to the watch.

02:09:00   I don't really have much to say.

02:09:01   I mean, my, my.

02:09:02   Jared Yeah, I don't either, to be honest.

02:09:03   I mean, it's a relatively small upgrade, essentially kind of like just shoving the

02:09:08   new chip in, which is great.

02:09:10   But other than that, yeah.

02:09:11   Steven Yeah, it does seem, I will say with that, because I use the watch, there's nothing

02:09:14   much to do with it.

02:09:16   It does seem like the new chip does get you a lot more battery life.

02:09:18   I didn't charge my, yeah, I have it right now.

02:09:21   I'm still at 24 percent battery with this watch that I haven't charged since two nights

02:09:26   ago.

02:09:27   So it's a series nine.

02:09:28   I think this, my other watches would have been dead by now and it still has 24.

02:09:33   That's it.

02:09:34   There's my short review.

02:09:36   We did not, also did not get to the fact that you are, you're leaving TechCrunch.

02:09:41   Jared I am.

02:09:42   Steven You're leaving me alone.

02:09:44   I'm abandoning you, John.

02:09:47   I'm abandoning you.

02:09:48   Steven First Renee left for YouTube, now you.

02:09:52   But I don't feel bad at all not discussing it.

02:09:55   You were just on our good mutual friend, Eli Patel's Decoder podcast over there at The

02:10:01   Verge in a full hour long interview talking about your editorship at, and I just got done

02:10:07   listening to it last night and I'm like, well, this is great because I don't have

02:10:12   to cover it.

02:10:13   I don't have to cover any of this.

02:10:15   So what I want everybody out there to do listening, we're wrapping this podcast up, this is

02:10:20   over.

02:10:21   If you haven't listened to that episode of Decoder, just pretend, just go take a

02:10:24   bathroom break and now just cue up that episode of Decoder.

02:10:28   I'm passing things off to Eli.

02:10:30   Matthew's going to stay here and just talk for the next hour to Eli about that.

02:10:34   But I will just say I'm going to miss you, buddy.

02:10:37   Matthew Thank you.

02:10:38   Me too.

02:10:39   I mean, obviously, you won't be able to escape me on iMessage.

02:10:42   But other than that, I will miss it.

02:10:44   It was it was fun.

02:10:45   And it's who's to say if I won't be doing it again at some point, but I did enjoy it

02:10:48   a lot.

02:10:49   I always look forward to seeing you.

02:10:50   I always love reading your reviews too, because I feel like we separate but parallel tracks

02:10:56   is like the way I look at it.

02:10:57   But like such a great you have such a great mind.

02:11:00   And I've always enjoyed talking and thinking and absorbing your views on these things,

02:11:05   especially at the events where we were so often kind of thrown together and I love it.

02:11:09   It was a really fun time.

02:11:10   I will cherish that kind of like sequence of events that led me to kind of become friends

02:11:15   with you and take part in this little ecosystem of reviewers and all that stuff.

02:11:19   It was fun.

02:11:20   I really enjoyed it.

02:11:21   Well, thank you very much.

02:11:22   I I'll just I'm going to spoil one small part of the verge interview with me like I was

02:11:28   hoping the whole time that by the end of it, Neil, I was going to convince you to work

02:11:31   for the verge so that we could keep this going.

02:11:35   Right, like, Hey, I was hoping to hear you hired on air, but right, right.

02:11:45   Yeah, spoiler.

02:11:46   It didn't happen anyway.

02:11:47   I'm sure we will still stay in touch.

02:11:49   Thank you.

02:11:50   I'm going to thank our sponsors to we had Squarespace where you can build your own website.

02:11:54   And we had memberful where you can build a membership system if you're a creator, and

02:11:59   trade coffee, of course, where you can get delicious craft coffee delivered fresh to

02:12:04   your house.

02:12:05   Matthew, thank you.

02:12:06   Thank you, john.

02:12:07   Appreciate you having me on.

02:12:08   Thank you.