479: The Three Oranges


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 479. It is October 2nd, 2023. This episode is brought to you by

00:00:18   Squarespace and Ooni Pizza Ovens. My name is Mike Hurley, I'm joined by Jason Snell. Hi, Jason!

00:00:24   It is me. I just like that pause. It makes me wonder, like, what is this upgrade? Is this

00:00:30   something else? We don't know. It's drama. I love it. Sometimes the introductions, they're just,

00:00:35   you know, they come into me on the fly, like, I don't really know what is gonna happen next,

00:00:39   you know? And that was it. I took a pause. We're into October already. I think that was what

00:00:45   actually made me pause. I kind of can't believe that we're in the fourth quarter of this year.

00:00:50   It's, yeah, it is surprising. And also September has, like, 60 days in it, right? That's how that

00:00:56   works. That's not over around these parts. We'll talk about that in a minute. September begins at

00:01:00   the end of August and ends at the beginning of October. That's September. I have a Snell Talk

00:01:06   question for you. It comes from Mark. Mark asks, "Jason, do you decorate your home for Halloween?

00:01:13   If you do, when do you put up and take down these decorations?" I don't. Okay. Halloween,

00:01:23   not my favorite, honestly. Not my favorite. I do have, though, there's one decoration that I do

00:01:30   have. I have the, I have a tube man, you know, one of those air dancer tube men, and he's orange.

00:01:40   The wacky inflatable flailing tube. Yeah, he tells you to, you know, look over here.

00:01:44   And I'm sure I've talked about this before. I think I bought it from a company called

00:01:48   LookAtMe.com. It's literally, "Look over here." Something like that. And he is my Halloween

00:01:56   decoration. So on Halloween or whenever the trick-or-treaters are out, because we live in an,

00:02:00   I grew up out in the middle of nowhere. We didn't have trick-or-treaters. We didn't do

00:02:04   trick-or-treating. It was just not a thing. And now I live in the prime neighborhood where

00:02:09   everybody in my town comes for trick-or-treating, and we have to buy huge bags of it, and I hate it.

00:02:16   I hate it. Sorry, people who love Halloween. I hate it. I don't want the people to come to the

00:02:20   door. I really would like to be one of those people who turns off all the lights and hides,

00:02:25   but you just can't. So instead we do it, and I'm also married to somebody who doesn't want to do

00:02:29   that. So, but my, what I do is I put out my tube man. I put him out, sometimes on the roof,

00:02:39   sometimes on the front lawn, or the front, it's not a lawn anymore, the front native plants garden.

00:02:46   And you know what? The tube man delights the children. Delights the children. They love the

00:02:55   tube man. And so that's my contribution to Halloween, as well as paying for bags of crappy,

00:03:01   cheap candy that we give away to kids. My contribution is the tube man. He brings

00:03:08   happiness to all. And I also have a Santa tube man, because you get a little blower,

00:03:13   and then you can get these little sort of silk tube men separately. It's a whole ecosystem of

00:03:20   tube men. And so for Christmas, I put- Tube man is a service.

00:03:23   Yes, it is. It is. What a service that is too. We salute you, tube man. Thank you for your service.

00:03:31   So Santa, anyway, Santa goes up around Christmas, and I do tube Santa for a little bit. But the

00:03:37   primary objective of tube man, actually the primary objective of having a tube man is that

00:03:42   my daughter and I always talked about wanting a tube man, and I finally bought one. But after that,

00:03:47   it was, "Won't he be great for Halloween?" And it turns out, he is great for Halloween.

00:03:51   And all the seasons, apparently. You can get an Easter bunny.

00:03:57   Honestly, Mike, there is like an Uncle Sam tube man that I'm thinking of buying for the 4th of July.

00:04:03   You've got to. Right? You've got to. That would be hilarious.

00:04:07   Right? So- Tube man wants you.

00:04:09   Yeah, to celebrate the 4th of July with fireworks or whatever, but not around me,

00:04:16   because you might burn me down. So yeah, I love my tube man. That's what I'm saying.

00:04:21   Who wouldn't? And I love snow talk questions because of that. If you would like to send in

00:04:29   a question of your own for us to open a future episode of Upgrade, go to upgradefeedback.com.

00:04:34   So we mentioned that September continues. So this is the final call for Relay FM for St. Jude.

00:04:42   Go to stjude.org/relay. Our campaign is ending officially on Friday, October 6th.

00:04:49   So that's the final day of the campaign. We have currently raised, as of recording right now,

00:04:57   $742,000, which is truly incredible. We have obliterated our previous goal, which is $706,000,

00:05:09   like our previous top amount raised, like record is the word I'm looking for.

00:05:14   That was set last year, the $706,000. We have smashed through that. I cannot believe

00:05:23   what our community has done this year. It is truly incredible. We are like

00:05:28   staring down 3 million lifetime at this point. It's like $50,000 away. So difficult, but not

00:05:39   impossible by the end of the week. So what I would say right now is if you have yet to donate,

00:05:45   now is an incredible time to do so. Go to stjude.org/relay and you can help support

00:05:50   the life-saving work of St. Jude Children's Research Hospital.

00:05:56   One of the most important parts of being a patient at St. Jude is having the space to not just be a

00:06:02   patient, but to be a kid. This year, St. Jude opened the Family Commons, a 45,000 square foot

00:06:08   space just for families. It is a treatment and clinical staff-free floor of the hospital,

00:06:13   a place for families to rest and reconnect between their appointments. This space came

00:06:18   about after feedback from parents of St. Jude who were looking for a space on campus where

00:06:23   families could get downtime together between their clinical appointments to have a sense of normalcy.

00:06:28   This is like the whole thing at St. Jude. It's more than a hospital. It's more than

00:06:34   a research center. It's all of those things and more than all of that. And that is why

00:06:39   I believe we can help get them to their life-saving work, their goal, which is to make

00:06:47   sure that no child dies from cancer. That is St. Jude's goal. And with the donations from

00:06:53   listeners like you, we get one step closer to that day, one cure closer, one child closer.

00:07:00   The longer we do this, the more and more life-saving work that will be done for the

00:07:05   kids of St. Jude. It's why we continue to come back year after year and ask you, our listeners,

00:07:10   to help. So please go to stjude.org/relay. You can donate. You can find out more there.

00:07:16   So I'm also going to take this as an opportunity to mention the things that you could otherwise

00:07:20   be missing out on if you have not yet made a donation. If you make an individual gift of $60

00:07:25   or more, you will receive in a few weeks time a digital bundle of Relay FM wallpapers and an

00:07:31   incredible macOS screensaver with tons of great art put together by James Thompson,

00:07:35   in collaboration with our friend Jelly as well, put together all the art for us this year.

00:07:41   Donors who make an individual gift of $100 or more get all of that and a sticker pack featuring a

00:07:47   bunch of designs themed around the campaign. If you want to set up a fundraiser of your own,

00:07:52   there's still time to do this. You could set up a fundraiser. You could share it with your friends,

00:07:57   with your colleagues, with your community. Fundraisers who raise at least $1 receive a

00:08:02   challenge coin of the campaign. I actually have one. We have them at the podcast. They're awesome.

00:08:07   If you raise $250 or more, you will receive an incredible desk mat. Now you can just make a

00:08:13   donation to a campaign that you set up for yourself if you want to. The top 50 fundraisers at the end

00:08:17   of the campaign will also receive a limited edition Relay FM for St. Jude tote bag, which is super cool.

00:08:23   Please go to stjude.org/relay to donate and find out more. If you do make a donation of your own,

00:08:29   please click the blue search employer button on the donation summary page. You can check if your

00:08:33   employer offers a matching gift program. If you've done this and you haven't heard back about it,

00:08:38   please check your email because you get an email with details for how to get things credited to

00:08:42   our campaign total. I know there's a lot of information here, but I really want to make

00:08:46   sure that we get all of this to you before the campaign ends. This is the last time that we'll

00:08:50   be talking about it for this year. Please go to stjude.org/relay. St. Jude won't stop until no

00:08:57   child dies from cancer. And with your support, we'll be one step closer to that day. One cure

00:09:01   closer, one child closer. This month and every month, let's cure childhood cancer together.

00:09:07   And now it's October. Yeah, I guess for us it is October now. I guess that's how that works.

00:09:14   Turn the page. We have like a funny thing that's happened. Due to a shipping error from a shipping

00:09:25   company, a selection of international parcels of our Summer of Fun merchandise went missing,

00:09:32   including mine. If I could quote, I'll erase some of the details, but if I could quote from our

00:09:40   contact in the Cotton Bureau, "After investigating Carrier, it eventually advised us that they have

00:09:48   officially lost 15 packages, including one that was supposed to go to Mike. They have no idea

00:09:53   where they are. If we ever get them back, it won't be soon. This is exceptionally rare and they told

00:10:00   us they identified the issue and fixed it. Now when this came up in one of our discords, I think

00:10:07   somebody suggested like, okay, the driver that like drove their truck off a ledge or off a cliff

00:10:15   or something like that has been relieved of their duties or left the truck somewhere and came back

00:10:21   to find it overturned, empty and on fire has been let go. I like what Zach has proposed in discord,

00:10:27   that it is a Summer of Fun heist. I like it. I like it. A big, big heist. Anyway, Carrier says

00:10:35   you're not getting it or if you are getting it, it will be a very long time from now. So what I'm

00:10:40   happy about though is that they have said that the carrier did realize it was their problem and they

00:10:45   fixed the problem. Like that makes me happy, right? At least we think that we fixed it. This

00:10:50   particular problem will never happen again. Again, that's because Jerry has been let go.

00:10:55   So I guess if you live overseas and from this point on ever received a parcel from

00:11:00   Cotton Bureau with your merchandise in it, you can thank the Upgradients for having solved this for

00:11:04   you. I guess. So to make sure that everyone, including me, gets the Summer of Fun shirts

00:11:11   that they ordered, we've reopened the campaigns of some of this stuff. Amazing. So what this allows

00:11:17   us to just with the way that things work at Cotton Bureau is an easy way to put it through.

00:11:21   But it also means if you missed out on a wonderful summer t-shirt, you have another chance. And we've

00:11:26   also used this as an opportunity to bring back the ever excellent upgrade hoodie, which has a

00:11:31   wonderful embroidered patch and a secret Upgradient seal screen print on the inside. So these are all

00:11:39   on sale for the next two weeks at upgradeyourwardrobe.com. These are also joining our

00:11:44   ever present excellent selection of on demand t-shirts that you can go and check out at any time

00:11:48   over at upgradeyourwardrobe.com. So yeah, and the hood, the hoodie, I beseech you, this is the hoodie

00:11:55   doesn't go on sale that often. It is here in the Northern Hemisphere getting toward the cooler

00:11:59   months, the hoodie is back. And it does have the special secret screen print on the inside on top

00:12:05   of everything else. I'm wearing my Thunderbolt Doc shirt right now, Mike, which you don't have.

00:12:09   I don't have one of those. I'm wearing my Room Around Us t-shirt. Ah, that's nice. Which people

00:12:13   can buy at any time. I look forward to joining you in time for Christmas. That's nice. I did wear

00:12:20   this on the podcast-a-thon. So you got to see it. And that was that moment where, because we knew

00:12:24   about this already, where you said, oh, so that's what that t-shirt looks like. Because I had been

00:12:29   paying a time, I'd been like, I sent an email to Conbry, I was like, did this, what happened to

00:12:34   this? And I think that was one of the things they heard from a couple of people. They started their

00:12:40   investigations, and now it has opened up one more opportunity for you to buy this merchandise,

00:12:45   if you would like. Yeah, yeah. This happened on the Incomparable 2, by the way. So we had a bunch

00:12:51   of Incomparable shirts that also never reached their destination. So yeah, it's great. I have

00:12:57   quite a lot of follow-up today that I would like to talk to you about. It feels like we always have

00:13:02   this episode, right? Where after all of the things that have been going on, we suddenly end up with

00:13:09   just a huge amount of footnotes and follow-up. So here we are. First, I actually would just like to

00:13:15   ask you a question. Have you made a decision about your personal iPhone? I haven't made a final

00:13:20   decision yet. It's still in the box that it was shipped in. But I haven't done a transfer because

00:13:26   I've got, I still haven't, by the way, I still haven't, has Jason made an iPhone review? The

00:13:31   answer, no, I haven't. I'm still thinking about it. I think this week. I'm still thinking about

00:13:37   it. Well, I mean, what do I say now? It's been all this time, right? 'Cause I get it after,

00:13:41   I got it during the Podcast-a-thon, everybody got their iPhones. So I have to think about it. It's

00:13:47   gonna be more like an essay about an iPhone 15 is what it'll be. So I haven't done that. So I'm

00:13:52   still using all the review units. I went to the Cal football game this weekend, took a bunch of

00:13:55   shots with the 5X camera. Whoa, that 5X camera on the Pro Max. It's real nice. Right now, I'm

00:14:02   leaning toward actually keeping the phone I ordered, a 15 Pro in Midnight Blue, because I do

00:14:08   like the Midnight Blue. I also like the Natural. In holding the Pro Max as much as I love that 5X,

00:14:15   I don't want a phone that big. I just don't. I could use it. And in fact, I've tried to,

00:14:22   so we talked about this when we were in Memphis. I've tried to narrow in to why I said it's not

00:14:30   that bad. And of course, then you, devil on my shoulder, were like, "In fact, it's good,

00:14:33   Jason. It's good." I think the fact that I run and walk the dog and all those things with the

00:14:42   Apple Watch has made my concerns about iPhone size a lot less relevant to me. Right? 'Cause one of my

00:14:52   reasons for getting a mini and wanting the smaller phone is that I hate going out and having the

00:15:01   iPhone in my pocket and it's swishing around in there. I don't like having that iPhone

00:15:08   weight in my pocket when I'm just walking around in the neighborhood. And that's gone. Right?

00:15:12   The only time I bring the iPhone with me now is when I put on the big boy pants and I go somewhere.

00:15:20   Right? I don't, if I'm just walking the dog, I don't bother. And that means size is less of a

00:15:28   concern because in those places where I really need to not be burdened, I am totally unburdened

00:15:35   now because I just use the Apple Watch. So I think that's the reason behind it. But having

00:15:40   carried it around for the review and taken the shots, the beautiful shots of that 5X camera,

00:15:47   I don't think it's for me. I think it's just too big. I think my hands don't fit on it very well.

00:15:53   And I think it's a bridge too far, but I will admit to being tempted by it. And I will admit

00:16:01   that that 5X camera is spectacular. So I think what's really happening is if I'm any indication,

00:16:08   a lot of people are gonna be more tempted and that's probably the, my guess is the percentage

00:16:12   is gonna shift a little bit toward the Pro Max this year. And I hope that next year,

00:16:18   the smaller phone gets that higher zoom because that would be amazing. But that's sort of where

00:16:22   I am right now, but I've got a little time to decide. I'm gonna wait until my iPhone review

00:16:26   is over before making a final decision. Last week on the show, you mentioned that the

00:16:33   international orange on my Apple Watch could be held up to the Golden Gate Bridge, which is also

00:16:38   painted international orange. Friend of the show, Ian wrote in to say, fun fact, international

00:16:44   orange is not just one color, but rather three. So we should start calling it international

00:16:50   oranges then, clearly. Yes. There is aerospace, Golden Gate Bridge, and engineering. Golden Gate

00:16:58   Bridge, international orange. The three genders. Aerospace, Golden Gate Bridge, and engineering.

00:17:04   They're not even, they're not even matching. That's so weird. That's like, that's like,

00:17:10   I'm gonna provide you with three options. There's running, fish, and John. What? What makes it worse?

00:17:21   So the link is in the show notes to the Wikipedia page. Yeah. Is that they are all just called

00:17:27   international orange. And then in brackets, either aerospace, Golden Gate Bridge, or engineering.

00:17:34   To me, this reads without doing any research about this. To me, this reads as like,

00:17:39   they wanted to paint the Golden Gate Bridge international orange and messed up and then

00:17:43   just then created like the wrong color. Well, without knowing anything about it,

00:17:47   I'm going to invent a narrative here, which is I wonder if the Golden Gate Bridge was painted

00:17:51   international orange. And then they said, we need some other international oranges that aren't that

00:17:58   color. And so they expanded it. But the Golden Gate Bridge is so synonymous with international

00:18:03   orange that they said, okay, that's that one. Yes, that is international orange. But we need

00:18:09   an engineering one and an aerospace one. So we'd added those two. We needed to lighten it up a

00:18:12   little bit for airplanes or whatever. Well, you say that, but I've got to continue and it's going

00:18:17   to unfortunately prove that wrong, I think. So Golden Gate Bridge is slightly more red. This

00:18:21   carries on from Ian. More red than what people often picture when they think of international

00:18:25   orange. Engineering is the most red. It was specified in 1956. During World War II,

00:18:34   to precisely describe a high visibility color to the growing list of military equipment contractors

00:18:41   most often seen on today's radio masts. Wait, when was the Golden Gate Bridge built? 1939? Well,

00:18:48   who knows? The history of international orange will remain a mystery, but there were three colors.

00:18:54   Okay. Now which one, here's the kicker mic, which one is the button on the side of the

00:18:59   Apple Watch Ultra? I think it's more close to international orange aerospace, but I'll have

00:19:06   to wait until I go and look at it. I'm looking at Wikipedia entry and looking at the button on the

00:19:17   watch. You know what? Maybe it is a fourth international orange and it's Apple Watch,

00:19:22   you know? Why not? Why not? Okay. We'll just look, Mike, the important thing here is that

00:19:30   there'll be more follow-up on this. Most definitely. I mean, it's already starting

00:19:34   about people being upset about me not knowing the exact dates of World War II, you know?

00:19:40   Yeah. Also, it's confusing because it was specified in '56, but they started using it in World War II.

00:19:44   So that's another example where they picked a color and then later they said, "Yeah, yeah,

00:19:47   yeah. That's international orange. It's red." But sure, we'll call that international orange too,

00:19:53   after the fact. So that's, yeah, exactly. So we spoke for a long, many episodes quite a while

00:20:03   ago about you trying to get a smart lock for your home that had home key support and you settled on

00:20:12   the Schlag, Schlage? Schlage? Schlage. Let's say Schlage. And I just saw something on MacRumors

00:20:23   that Yale has debuted two new smart locks that featureā€¦ Yeah. And I saw some people in the Six

00:20:29   Colors member Discord talked about this too, who took, who got them. It is, so I've got the, yeah,

00:20:35   I've got the Schlag lock and that's how they pronounce it, you know, as a German student,

00:20:42   I really want to call it Schlage, but it's not a Schlage because it's Americans.

00:20:45   Yale is what I had before. What I like about the Yale locks is that they're almost featureless.

00:20:51   They're like these little dark kind of portals and they're flat and they sit on the door and then you

00:20:57   can either touch them and put in a number pad code. The number pad lights up, or you can hold

00:21:03   your watch or phone up to the lock in this case now and they auto unlock based on the NFC chip.

00:21:10   And that's how home key works. Great. The Schlage lock that I've got, I don't like it quite as much.

00:21:16   It's kind of got like a frame around it and then the keypad is sort of indented. It's got a,

00:21:20   and then depending on your feelings, it's got a keyhole. It's got like a lock.

00:21:25   And you can use a physical lock or physical key with it to turn the lock, which Lauren was telling

00:21:31   me she likes that because there's this sort of like backup of like, you could just use the key

00:21:36   if you want to. And she likes that. It's fine. I mean, my thought is it also means that it's

00:21:44   easier to pick the lock, but I mean, really at that point, somebody's going to bring it to your

00:21:48   house. This Yale one, there is a key option. Like, so you can have it key free. Yeah. And the key

00:21:54   free, I think they have like a little contacts for like a battery. So you can wake it up and

00:22:01   you can jumpstart your lock if you need to. So anyway, it's nice. And in fact, I might prefer

00:22:08   this design. And if I didn't already have one, I might buy this one. However, and Yale's not

00:22:14   going to like me saying this, but it's just, I have to call it like it is. My door doesn't fit

00:22:18   exactly right. It's not immaculate. It's a little bit off. And that means that sometimes, depending

00:22:25   on how the door has set, when it's closed by a person, the bolt comes out and it strikes the

00:22:32   strike plate a little bit. And it has to kind of like push and essentially move the door a very

00:22:37   small amount in order to get it all the way through. So there's a little, sometimes a little

00:22:41   extra force that's required. And in my experience, the Yale, the last generation Yale Smart Lock,

00:22:49   the motor was not very strong and it would often fail and it was not great. And I did a lot of

00:22:57   rejiggering to my door to try to get it to work better. But the fact was that there were certain

00:23:01   times when it would fail and then beep loudly and it was not great. I have not had a failure like

00:23:08   that with the Schlage lock. It has a much stronger motor. It did have a physical failure in the,

00:23:16   in part of the bolt housing. And I called them and they said, "Oh, sorry, that does happen sometimes

00:23:21   with our locks and we are sending one to you free right now." And I replaced it and it has worked

00:23:27   great. But what I will say, so good customer service there. It was a failure, but good customer

00:23:31   service. So that's my only other takeaway is like ultimately leaving aside the design and the

00:23:36   implementation, and I really like home key locks. I think they're really nice. I have gotten used to

00:23:39   touching my Apple watch up to the door. I think it's great. But my experience has been that the

00:23:47   Schlage locks have a stronger motor and that matters to me because it means that they're more

00:23:51   likely to succeed. Whereas the Yale lock was just weak enough that sometimes it would try to close

00:23:59   the lock and fail and be like, "I can't do it. Beep, beep." And that's not a great feature in

00:24:06   a lock. It's not so good. No, not so great. That's not so helpful. Tim Cook has been talking about

00:24:13   the Vision Pro a bunch over the last couple of weeks. He's been doing lots of media because of

00:24:18   the iPhone and other reasons that I'll get to in a minute, but he's been talking a lot about the

00:24:22   Vision Pro. It seems like wherever he can. And there's a couple of things that I thought were

00:24:27   interesting or just funny to me. So Tim Hardwick at MacRumors was reporting on a CBS interview. So

00:24:34   Tim Cook told CBS Sunday Morning that he watched the entire third season of Ted Lasso on his Vision

00:24:40   Pro. Which just seems like a funny thing. That's just very funny to me. It's like an unnecessary

00:24:46   flex. The entire season? Well, there's one episode you didn't watch on an iPad, Tim. And also,

00:24:54   I just love the double promo in one sentence. He didn't watch just a show. He only watched the

00:25:02   third season of Apple's favorite Ted Lasso. I'm surprised he didn't also watch the debut premiere

00:25:07   of The Morning Show on it as well. And Tim also said to CBS Sunday Morning that it's still on

00:25:13   track for launching "early next year," whatever that means. And also talking to David Phelan at

00:25:21   The Independent. This is a quote. Tim Cook says Vision Pro has become part of his nightly routine,

00:25:27   helping him understand how it could become an industry-defining product.

00:25:31   There are huge differences in how people look at it, depending on if they read about it or

00:25:36   if they've actually tried it. He says, "I believe even more about how profound spatial computing is.

00:25:42   When you've tried it, it's an aha moment. And you only have a few of those in a lifetime."

00:25:46   Now, I agree with that second part. I think we both do. The thing that annoys me about this quote is,

00:25:52   why did he not ask him about the nightly routine? What does that mean? What does that mean?

00:25:56   I saw somebody, a commentator, I think maybe it was Nick here, who said, "Well, while it's

00:26:03   interesting to say if you've tried it, you know, it is also worth pointing out that the only people

00:26:08   who've tried it are people Apple allowed to try it." It's like, okay, it is true. That is, just

00:26:14   keep in mind that it's a very specific group. But I do think, and you and I both had this experience,

00:26:19   certainly makes more of an impact to actually experience it. And it's very hard to convey that

00:26:26   if you're just trying to imagine that based on what other people have said. That said,

00:26:31   we were all so many incredibly constrained demo of it. And that's not quite the same as going

00:26:38   through a nightly routine. What I take away from this is, look, I think Tim Cook dog foods,

00:26:44   a bunch of stuff, right? I really do. I think he uses new iPads. I think he can use it. I think he

00:26:48   wants to be, even at the CEO level, he wants to be familiar with and understand the products that

00:26:54   Apple's making so that he can talk about it, but also that he stays connected to the products.

00:26:58   It's a product company, it really, I mean, and services and software, but like it matters. And

00:27:03   so I like that he seems to be really engaged with this product because he should be. And he isn't

00:27:09   always as engaged with products, right? That's the sense we get is he's an operations guy,

00:27:14   he's the CEO, he's got other people to do this. He's not Steve Jobs. But in this product, I

00:27:18   suspect like the Apple Watch, it is more important to him and he's spending more time with it. And I

00:27:26   like that, right? 'Cause he doesn't necessarily have to do this, but I think it's a good thing.

00:27:30   And I would imagine that Tim Cook using Vision Pro every day probably has helped the progress of that

00:27:38   product development, right? That Tim Cook is using it and seeing where it works and seeing where it

00:27:44   doesn't. And if he's in a meeting, he can be like, "I don't know, I tried that and this happened."

00:27:50   And like, that's a much more informed perspective from the CEO. I think it's good. But yes, I do

00:27:54   wonder, is it like, is he brushing his teeth in augmented reality while Ted Lasso plays in the

00:27:59   corner or like, I don't know. - Is he getting like his nightly cream all over the lens by accident?

00:28:05   Like what's happening over there? - Is this where he drinks his smoothie while he's hanging in back

00:28:11   in an armchair watching an Auburn football game projected on the wall? I don't know. Tell us more,

00:28:20   Tim. Tell us more about Tim Cook after dark with the Vision Pro. - Well, Jason, someone might have

00:28:28   gotten this out of him because old boys, our friend, been busy. So you may remember last year

00:28:32   around this time, Tim took a tour of Europe and he's been on it again. So we're back on the

00:28:38   upgrade podcast with your annual recap of the tour of Tim Cook as it is to this date. - Where in the

00:28:46   world is Tim Cook? - Well, I'm gonna let you know. - I'm working on it. All right. Okay. - He started

00:28:52   by attending a photo gallery show of images taken on iPhones in New York. He then went across the

00:28:59   Atlantic to attend a Real Madrid training session and later a match, obviously, in Spain. He had a

00:29:06   dinner with a chef who "uses the iPhone 15 Pro Max in their creative process" and another who is

00:29:13   championing sustainability. We're still in Spain, by the way. He then attended a musical performance

00:29:19   at an Apple store in Madrid. He visited a school that uses iPhones for photography in their classes.

00:29:25   He then visited the Procreate developers. - Nice. I didn't know they were in Spain. - I'm not sure

00:29:32   where they are, actually. I didn't write that part down. This is still part of the Spanish legs,

00:29:36   so I'm assuming that they're in Spain. - Or near Spain. - I'm about to tell you something else that

00:29:40   I know he did in Spain, so I'm assuming that they're still in Spain. He then spent time with

00:29:46   a Spanish Paralympic swimmer who was wearing an Apple watch and they made a video about it.

00:29:50   Tim then leaves Spain to meet with chip company NXP, who supplies parts to Apple. He used this as

00:29:59   an opportunity to highlight their sustainability work on decarbonizing. Quote, Tim says, "NXP's

00:30:06   chips are in many of our products, including our new carbon neutral Apple watch lineup."

00:30:11   So I will pause here for a moment because now it feels like, genuinely, there's just a pattern for

00:30:18   this because last time when he did this, he was in Japan, I think, with Sony and said similarly,

00:30:27   we have used Sony's chips forever. And it's like, Apple never talk about this, but now they've done

00:30:32   it two times in two years on a Tim tour that he goes to somewhere and calls them out specifically

00:30:38   as a great partner. And it's like, they never, ever, ever talk about this stuff otherwise. So

00:30:44   I just find that very interesting. - This just in Procreate is apparently in Tasmania,

00:30:49   which is about as far away from Spain as you can get. - Well, I can't explain that. - I think it's

00:30:53   literally like the other side of the globe from that, but maybe there were some- - They may have

00:30:57   been in Spain. - Procreate team in Spain. - Procreate is so huge, but here's the thing.

00:31:01   If I follow this chronologically, as I assume that is it, right? He was still in the Spain

00:31:08   when he was meeting Procreate. - Okay, all right. Okay, he didn't, unless he burrowed,

00:31:13   using new Apple technology we don't know about, burrowed straight through the core of the earth

00:31:17   and emerged in Tasmania. - Who knows? Maybe he had a digital persona, I don't know.

00:31:22   - I recall from my trip to New Zealand that Spain is actually on the exact opposite, the antipode of

00:31:29   New Zealand. So it's in the ballpark of Tasmania. It's not that far off. I'm just saying, ask the

00:31:34   mole people the truth about Apple's lava burrowing. Anyway, they were probably in Spain. - I don't

00:31:40   think I wanna do that. - They were probably in Spain. - I don't think I wanna do that. - Spain,

00:31:44   yeah, yeah. - Tim then met with developers in the Netherlands who make various, like a game studio

00:31:51   and a cycling app, obviously it's in the Netherlands. He also spent time of a Dutch YouTuber.

00:31:56   - Great, love it. - Tim then went over to listen to some spatial audio music at a studio in

00:32:03   Copenhagen. - Of course he did. - He then, and this is another thing that happened last time,

00:32:08   another random Apple executive appears. And Tim visited a solar farm in Denmark with Lisa Jackson.

00:32:15   I love this, so in my mind, it's like, so Tim's off all over the place. And then like someone

00:32:20   else has to go, you know, 'cause we had Eddy Q last time. - At Oktoberfest, I was about to say,

00:32:28   are we sure that there isn't a thing we've missed here where Tim and Eddy had like tapas somewhere?

00:32:35   - Not yet. I don't know that the tour's over. - Okay. - Because we cap it off now with Tim coming

00:32:43   to the great country of the United Kingdom. - 'Cause Eddy loves those small places.

00:32:48   He just gets a whole bunch of little small plates and it's like the tapas and it's great. So I'm

00:32:52   sure he was like, Tim, Tim, I'm gonna order for you. It's gonna be great. That's in my mind.

00:32:56   That's my imagination. They went to the UK, you say? - Yep, here in the UK, he spent some time

00:33:00   with some British developers. He spent some time with some school children, which I thought was

00:33:04   adorable. And then met with the prince and princess of Wales to talk about the environment.

00:33:08   And in the images, it's something that like I realized I've not seen a lot of, which is Tim

00:33:13   cooking a suit. I feel like we don't see Tim in a suit very much. And I will say, I appreciate it

00:33:19   that you wore a suit. - To visit the prince of Wales? - Yeah. So that's how far we've gotten so far.

00:33:26   - He's not wearing a tie, but to be fair, William also not wearing a tie. - Yeah, it's like, you know,

00:33:30   they're like, it's like dressing up, but like, we're not gonna, you know, we're cool, you know?

00:33:34   That's the note that I get there. - Yeah. Did he go to Battersea? I assume he did. - Well, as a part of,

00:33:41   I move on now to my final piece of follow-up for you today. As part of Tim's press tour,

00:33:46   the Evening Standard has published some interior photos of Apple's Battersea campus,

00:33:51   which I believe is the first time this has happened. And so Mike Hurley gets to tell you,

00:33:56   yes, this is what I saw. And it's stunning in there. Unbelievable. It is beautiful. - It looks

00:34:04   kind of like Apple Park in a way too, right? Where there's the, like an atrium and then there's the

00:34:08   various levels and it's all kind of open air. - It's all soft and round, right? But it's brick rather

00:34:13   than, I think it's like, I don't know what stone it is. It looks like limestone to me, but I don't

00:34:17   think it is. - It's magical Italian stone quarry from a very particular place in Italy only known

00:34:22   by Johnny Ive. - But, and so you get to say there, if you look, if you like go down the page,

00:34:28   you've got the image, which is like the large image, which shows like the archways.

00:34:33   Like, and they have these huge brick archways, which is like the atrium area. This is when I

00:34:39   went there and I was with one of the architects and I pointed up at the corners and said,

00:34:45   that's incredible. How do you do that? And he said to me, it's not real. And I don't really know what

00:34:50   that means, but it was a beautiful detail. And I guess you can take from that what you want,

00:34:55   because I've never seen brick curve like that. And I guess it turns out it isn't. And, but I

00:34:59   don't really know what that means. I don't really know what that means. - It's a piece. Well, I was,

00:35:04   we had this conversation long ago about like the ballpark in San Francisco has the brick and why

00:35:09   there isn't brick in San Francisco, because it crumbles and it's very bad in earthquakes.

00:35:12   And so you end up having the ballpark in San Francisco has a brick front because it wants

00:35:17   to feel old timey, but it's literally, there's a picture that when they were building it in the

00:35:20   San Francisco Chronicle of the little brick wall veneer being placed on it, right? It's not real.

00:35:28   It's not a brick building. It's a concrete building, reinforced concrete with a brick

00:35:33   kind of overlay. And it wouldn't surprise me if that's what they did here is there's the real

00:35:37   brick of the Battersea power station. And then there's the architectural brick molding that goes

00:35:44   in certain places. - I reckon it's brick up to a point and that's not real brick. And then it

00:35:49   tried, but like it seamlessly goes back to brick again. - They want to mix it in because it has to

00:35:54   fit in with the rest of the building. Yeah, that's what I suspect. - It is truly breathtaking in there

00:35:58   like, and I'm just happy that they've released some images now because like, wow, it's a facade.

00:36:04   - David Schaub reminds me the right word is not veneer. It is facade or cladding. And it says, sure.

00:36:09   Anyway, sometimes it's a brick all the way through. Sometimes it's not. That's okay.

00:36:13   Or maybe it's not brick at all, Mike. Okay. - This episode is brought to you by Squarespace.

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00:38:47   It is time for a room around up Jason Snow.

00:38:52   So I've got quite a few things from Ming-Chi Kuo today. You've been publishing some reports.

00:38:58   The first is about Kuo's expectations for the Vision Pro based on his understanding of the

00:39:06   supply chain. So we've got three items here. Item one, Ming-Chi Kuo is predicting a production

00:39:12   capacity of between 400,000 and 600,000 units in year one. This echoes numbers we've heard before,

00:39:18   but the more we hear these numbers, the more likely this is. There were conversations

00:39:22   previously about a million, but then there was a question of like, is that a million units or is

00:39:27   that a misunderstanding of a million displays being available, which would be half a million

00:39:33   units. And so I feel like we are coalescing now on this, like around half a million in year one.

00:39:40   We have no idea right now what that actually will mean in the sense of like the desire of people,

00:39:47   you know, like my assumption is half a million is not going to be enough. I don't know what you think.

00:39:53   I know. I think I, I suspect, I mean, you never know, but it feels to me like the price is there

00:40:00   in part to gate demand. And because they know they can't make that, they can't make so many.

00:40:04   So you want to price it so that it comes in the ballpark. I imagine these are going to be

00:40:08   backordered. Yeah. Like, yeah, it feels like, I mean, it is, it is possible that nobody wants

00:40:14   first-generation super expensive hardware, but I have a hard time. I just have a hard time believing

00:40:18   that given Apple's footprint, Apple selling half a million units of its newest platform in its first

00:40:26   year, it's a low bar, even for the price, even for what it is. I don't even, I think honestly,

00:40:31   like that idea of nobody wants that, I feel like nobody is in the realm of half a million units for

00:40:36   Apple. You know what I mean? Yeah. For Apple. Yeah, that's absolutely true. To say nobody,

00:40:41   like for them, half a million units of a product, which they put so much effort into,

00:40:45   it is almost nobody, which is a wild thing to say. This is a little sidebar here, but I'm curious

00:40:51   how the existence of the Vision Pro is going to affect the sale. So Meta introduced the Quest 3.

00:40:58   Yep. Right. So I have a Quest 2. You have the Quest Pro now. Unfortunately for me.

00:41:04   Unfortunately, yeah. So this is, I mean, it looks, looks really good. And I like my Quest 2. And I

00:41:08   thought about buying a Quest 3 because it's got, they upgraded the camera so that more like the

00:41:13   Vision Pro, it's got like better augmented reality support by having better cameras.

00:41:20   Whereas the, it was all sort of hacked into the Quest 2 and it wasn't very good. It's black and

00:41:25   white and grainy and bad, but they did sort of hack it in there after the fact. And I say this

00:41:31   just because the thing that's keeping me from potentially buying a Quest 3 literally is the

00:41:38   Vision Pro is just hanging out there. Right. Yeah. It's like, and I know I'm not, I'm not

00:41:42   a perfect example because I covered this for a living and I mean, I'm going to buy a Vision Pro

00:41:46   regardless because I need to for my work, but it is also like, like that's coming. Do I really want

00:41:54   to invest in any other platform? And I wonder how it'll go for meta and whether, whether the

00:42:00   Vision Pro is a thing that is so far out there and in terms of time and in terms of price,

00:42:06   that it doesn't matter for the people who might buy something like a Quest 3, or if it is a,

00:42:11   because I also think there's an argument to be made. The Quest 3 is going to,

00:42:14   is designed for stuff that Vision Pro isn't designed for and that they're very different.

00:42:18   But I do wonder if Vision Pro being out there is going to suppress sales of other products in the

00:42:24   category in the meantime, at least. Maybe I complicated to say, right. Cause the price

00:42:28   difference is so large. Cause what is the Quest 3 like $500? Yeah. Oh yeah. No, it's, it's, it's

00:42:36   not even close. Right. And yet like, but there was this question like, yeah, but am I going to buy a

00:42:41   headset now and then buy a headset again next year? Do you put it off? I don't know. I don't know. Or,

00:42:46   or, or does the detail I'll take the other side. Does the detail of the Vision Pro costing what it

00:42:52   costs, um, make it easier to write it off and say, Oh, well I was worried about Apple's new headset,

00:42:58   but now I'm not cause I'm not going to buy that. So I'll buy this, uh, this Quest 3. Also,

00:43:03   I do wonder a side note. Um, if the price of the Quest Pro is so much larger that when you

00:43:09   see the Quest 3, you're like, Oh, what a relief. That one is cheaper. I'll buy that one. I mean,

00:43:13   I feel like a fool for buying the Quest Pro cause like they said the best, the best feature about

00:43:17   the Quest Pro was the pass through. And they're saying that the Quest 3 is even better. So why

00:43:20   on earth did I need to pay three times the price then? Right. I don't really understand that. Um,

00:43:26   that one great cortex episode. That's why. Yeah. And I will say like for me personally,

00:43:32   it did make sense because we did a good episode of cortex and I think that it helped me with

00:43:38   talking about the vision pro as well. So like it was actually a very good investment. Uh, but if we

00:43:43   take that part out of it and just think about maybe other people that bought them, it is a bit,

00:43:48   you know, especially when they're talking about like, you know, meta is saying like,

00:43:53   Oh yeah, it's way better than the Quest Pro. So why on earth did you make this product?

00:43:57   Like it's very strange, very strange, weird outlier product. Like what would have happened

00:44:03   to the Quest 3 if the Quest Pro sold better? Would they have not released the Quest 3?

00:44:08   Like if the Quest Pro was a big success, what would have happened? I don't know. I think that

00:44:13   it may be that the Quest Pro was, um, that the Quest 3 is a recalibration because of the Quest

00:44:17   Pro not doing very well, but I don't know. Interesting. Um, actually this does tell right

00:44:24   back into Minshi Kuo's second point. Kuo believes Apple have changed course on a cheaper version of

00:44:30   the vision pro and believes that Apple will struggle to reduce the cost of a potential

00:44:35   product enough to make it viable for planned 2025 release. So the question that we've been asked a

00:44:42   million times, which is hard to answer, what will they cut out? Well, maybe Apple struggling with

00:44:47   that exact question themselves and they can't cut out enough. This is interesting in so many levels

00:44:52   because it's, it's the question of like, how do they define the platform? And, and I think it's

00:44:57   also interesting because they don't know, right? I think part of it is the challenge they're in now

00:45:02   is they're trying to plan the future of this product and it hasn't reached regular people yet.

00:45:06   And so they have to use their best judgment, but their best judgment is never going to meet

00:45:10   reality. It's never going to match what you can get from having it ship, shipping a product and

00:45:15   seeing what happens. And so it's very hard to build a roadmap when you don't know, um, because

00:45:21   if you're trying to pull out features from this product in order to make a cheaper version, right?

00:45:28   Certainly there are going to be arguments about what defines this, what defines the vision pro

00:45:33   and the vision OS experience that cannot be omitted from any version. And these are the

00:45:38   same arguments that they presumably have been having all along. And so presumably the people

00:45:43   who would win those arguments are the people who won those arguments before. And so without reality

00:45:50   to buttress the arguments of the people who might have a disagreement, you're going to end up with a

00:45:57   diff it's going to be difficult to compromise on your low end product. If you really have this,

00:46:01   um, idea in your head about what the vision OS experience is. So that makes it really hard.

00:46:07   And we've heard, you know, various things like, Oh no, no, that outward facing display is a must

00:46:12   for all vision pro or vision, OS hardware. It's like, really? Like that would seem like that

00:46:17   would be the first thing that could go, but they're like, no, but philosophically it's very

00:46:20   important. I'm like, okay, but how are you going to make this cheaper? So it's possible

00:46:26   if a QoS report is accurate, that, um, that they've basically said either we don't know,

00:46:32   or we can't do it, or there's no point, uh, because the, uh, it's also a supply issue, right? Like

00:46:38   they're having such supply issues with the vision pro itself. And even if they downgrade the

00:46:43   displays and they might argue about that, like, are they going to have the ability to get those

00:46:48   other kinds of displays? And is it going to be of good enough quality? And is it even worth

00:46:52   selling a cheaper version if you can't yet suffice demand for the expensive one?

00:46:59   Exactly. So my guess is this is kicking the can down the road, letting the vision pro ship,

00:47:04   working on what the next generation vision pro is, and then either doing the Tim Cook thing and

00:47:12   taking the first generation vision pro and discounting it when the second one comes out

00:47:16   or using what you learned with that first generation and building the second generation

00:47:22   to then work on that vision one or whatever down the road. But it did, it always seemed very

00:47:27   ambitious that they were going to do a cheaper version in the short term. And I think this is

00:47:32   Apple saying, yeah, we know this is going to take a lot longer and we aren't, cause I believe that

00:47:37   they, that the vision pro is not that far off from what they think is like the baseline acceptable

00:47:43   experience. And how do you, how do you make those decisions and then say, yeah, but we're gonna,

00:47:48   we're going to ship something that'll be more appealing to the masses a year later that is

00:47:54   below the bar we've set. That's a, that is a tough thing to do. So I'm not too surprised that they

00:48:00   might just kick this thing down the road. And, and it means the problem is it means for developers

00:48:05   that the number of people who are going to be using this platform is going to be small for

00:48:09   a lot longer than maybe they anticipated. Quo also expects that a vision pro 2 is unlikely

00:48:16   to be available until at least 2027. Yikes. I mean, I guess it's closer to,

00:48:23   I mean, maybe even further these days, but we think of it more on the refresh rate of a Mac.

00:48:28   Well, if you think about, think about this as almost being a product that's shipping in year

00:48:34   minus one, like they, they, they can't, they are struggling with capacity, right already. And that,

00:48:42   and so for 24 half a million units, and there's a challenge for what is it in 25

00:48:48   and what is it in 26? Like it may be several years before they can even ship

00:48:55   the original in any decent quantity. And, and if that's true, I mean, I'm, I'm sure. Imagine

00:49:05   what their, what sites they've set for vision pro 2, right? Like that's probably an even more

00:49:10   impossible product to make today. Right. And will it even be there? Will the parts even be there

00:49:16   when they expect? So it's a, it's a funny thing. Cause I don't think it's Apple's will here. I

00:49:21   think it's also, um, what's available and clear it clearly with the vision pro like they chose

00:49:27   technology that is very expensive and very hard to make and can't be made in high volume. At least

00:49:33   not yet. Continuing with information from Ming Chi Quo on a different tank. He has said that the

00:49:39   2024 Mac books and iPads will of course feature M3 chips, but also states that his expectation

00:49:46   is that the device demand may fall below expectations due to a quote, lack of growth

00:49:52   drivers. Joe Rossignol at Macrumor suggests that this is probably relating to work from home device

00:49:57   sales. Like this had been a big thing for these products over the last few years. And that has

00:50:02   changed. I'm just hoping that he is not suggesting that the new iPad pro does not see a significant

00:50:08   refresh because old boy is it time. Yeah. It's it's hard to tell. Um, this is worth, since we're

00:50:14   talking about Ming Chi Quo here, it's worth talking about that. He had a report that John

00:50:18   Gruber wrote about on daring fireball. He had a report about the overheating reports for the

00:50:22   iPhone 15. Oh yeah. That was very clearly a, uh, TSMC plant that was, Oh, uh, it's not us.

00:50:33   It's not our chip. Whatever's going on in this, in this thing that's, that's turned out to not be much

00:50:38   of a story. Uh, big surprise, uh, new iPhones come out. Um, they run hot for a while. There's

00:50:44   maybe a bug in there too. It's just not a big deal, but he did this story about it. And it was

00:50:48   like, Oh no, this isn't that problem. And it's clearly coming from TSMC and it's worth doing the

00:50:53   thing that we do on upgrade a lot, which is say, consider the source. How do they know the

00:50:58   information? They know, what are they good at? What are they maybe not as good at? Uh, Ming Chi Quo is

00:51:03   a very well-respected good source of information about the supply chain in Asia. Very good at that.

00:51:10   When Ming Chi Quo starts getting into, you know, punditry analysis stuff that is not in his

00:51:19   wheelhouse, you should be more skeptical. So, uh, this is, this is an example where I would say I will

00:51:28   take his report about M3 chips in Mac books and iPads. I mean, this report from him though, it's

00:51:34   not wrong. I'm just saying you gotta back, you gotta back it off a little bit because there's the

00:51:39   stuff that's in his wheelhouse and there's the stuff that's not like no source. Cause we talked

00:51:44   about Mark Grumman a lot here too. No source is even a solid source is solid about everything.

00:51:53   So it's worth scoring them based on like, what are they good at? And then what does it feel like?

00:51:59   It's a little bit on the outside. I want to read what Quo said. This is what John Greubel linked

00:52:03   to. He says, Quo says, my survey indicates that the iPhone 15 pro series overheating issues are

00:52:08   unrelated to TSMC's Avant-3 Nermany and node. The primary cause is more likely the compromises made

00:52:15   in the thermal system designed to achieve a lighter weight, such as the reduced heat dissipation area

00:52:20   and the use of a titanium frame, which negatively impacts thermal efficiency. It's expected Apple

00:52:26   will address this through software updates, but improvements may be limited unless Apple lowers

00:52:30   processor performance. If Apple does not properly address this issue, it can negatively impact

00:52:35   shipments over the product life cycle of the iPhone 15 pro series. This doesn't sound wrong to me.

00:52:40   Okay. There's a couple of things. Apple says that the...

00:52:44   There's a software bug.

00:52:45   Apple says there's a bug, but Apple says that the heat dissipation that he suggests,

00:52:50   the titanium frame and the reduced heat dissipation area, Apple says that's not true.

00:52:54   Well, he didn't say more likely.

00:52:58   Right? Like is what you said. He didn't say for sure. But it is a software thing that Apple's

00:53:03   going to address, which he also says. But he's also doing some work for TSMC to get it off of

00:53:08   their back here, right? And saying, oh, it might be this problem with the titanium. It might be

00:53:11   the titanium. And Apple's like, it's not the titanium, okay? And also that last sentence,

00:53:17   if Apple doesn't address this issue, it could hurt the sales of the iPhone. And the stock went down.

00:53:23   And it's like, well, duh, if Apple doesn't properly address the issue of the most important product,

00:53:30   then it might be a problem. But is it an issue and will Apple address it? Those are the questions

00:53:35   there. And I guess that's what I'm saying is he's not wrong. And when he's in his bailiwick,

00:53:43   he's really good. But he's straying a little bit here because again, you have to ask like,

00:53:51   where did this come from? And it feels very strongly to me and to Gruber that he's doing

00:53:57   some work for TSMC, right? TSMC is like, it's not us, it's not us. Don't blame this on us.

00:54:01   It's not us. And so he's like, all right, I'm going to put out a thing that says, hey,

00:54:04   here's a bunch of other things that could be, but you know what? It's not. It's not TSMC's processors.

00:54:09   That's what it's not. - Yeah. But it's like these apps that are overheating iPhones, are they just

00:54:14   overheating the new iPhones? - Yeah, I don't know. I mean, because- - Because if they are, why? - Right.

00:54:20   And there might be an OS bug that's related to the hardware, but also remember that when these

00:54:24   devices ship out, they are indexing every photo and they're doing spotlight indexing and they're

00:54:30   syncing a bunch of stuff and like a newly installed iPhone runs hot for a while anyway. But also

00:54:38   there's the question of like, you know, Instagram maybe is using API wrong. - Instagram and Uber,

00:54:43   they named specifically, which I found to be very weird, like as a thing. It's kind of like-

00:54:49   - Third parties. - Why can they even do that? - Companies you don't like are at fault here, not Apple.

00:54:57   Anyway, this is me actually defending Ming-Chi Kuo because sometimes I feel like

00:55:03   you get that other lack of nuance, which is like, "Pff, Ming-Chi Kuo, you know, he said this thing and

00:55:09   he's in TSMC's pocket." It's like, no, Ming-Chi Kuo is great at what he does, which is the supply chain

00:55:14   stuff. Like I believe him. The lack of growth drivers explanation, sometimes his explanations

00:55:20   are where I have to apply a little more skepticism because he's trying to take the facts he know and

00:55:25   then build the narrative around it in order to make his facts feel complete or relevant or

00:55:30   whatever. And he's not necessarily wrong, right? Like it could mean that the iPad Pro is not going

00:55:36   to get a bigger refresh. It could just mean as Joe Rossignol, friend of the show, says at Mac Rumors

00:55:41   that this is all part of the same story, which is the pandemic sold a lot of iPads and laptops,

00:55:47   and those people are on a new cycle. They came a little bit ahead. They bought that new iPad

00:55:51   and laptop then, and they're not going to buy another one two years later. They're not. So

00:55:55   the sales are going to be lower, and that's just how it's going to be. Regardless, like,

00:55:59   because there's also this thing that happens, especially in business journalism a lot, where

00:56:03   there's this, like Bloomberg does this a lot, where it's like A happened and then B happened,

00:56:07   and therefore they're connected, right? It's like it's this correlation causation problem that

00:56:13   happens. And I see this with device sales sometimes too, which is, "Oh, they're going to

00:56:19   put M3 chips in there, but demand may not follow." It's like, you know, updating a computer doesn't

00:56:29   necessarily mean that sales surge, right? That's not, it's not that simple, because you got to

00:56:35   take into account a whole bunch of other things. So you don't necessarily have to make those

00:56:38   connections, and you don't necessarily have to make those narratives and build them, but people

00:56:43   do. So that's, that's why we're here, Mike. Yep. Benjamin Mayo at 9to5Mac is reporting an

00:56:49   information share by Business F1 magazine that Apple is looking at trying to secure worldwide

00:56:55   rights for Formula One. They are reportedly looking at a deal that will be ultimately worth

00:57:02   $2 billion a year, which is double the current rights fee. Like if looked at what, what they're

00:57:07   looking at what F1 rights are worth worldwide. The issue with this, and the interesting part

00:57:14   of this is the way in which the rights are structured. So if Apple were to strike this deal,

00:57:18   they would not actually be able to secure the global rights at the same time. They would have

00:57:23   to get them on a rolling schedule until all of the contracts expire in the different territories

00:57:29   that are all over the next five years. So US rights are in 2025, so that would probably be first,

00:57:37   then other territories later on. Apple is expected to make a seven-year deal for this reason,

00:57:43   and then also double the rights fees. Right. It would be very interesting to see how they would

00:57:49   handle this. F1 TV, for example, is like something that people really enjoy. If you're outside of

00:57:56   some markets, like I can't get F1 TV because Sky has that very locked down here. But F1 TV is like

00:58:03   a pretty technologically rich platform. Like you can watch like dozens and dozens of camera feeds,

00:58:10   you get live data and all that kind of stuff. Would Apple want to do that? I don't know, maybe,

00:58:15   but there is a lot of interesting stuff that could be done with F1. I think it is a really good set

00:58:21   of rights to try and acquire if possible, because it's a growing sport and it's a sport I think with

00:58:29   a high index in advertising for the market that's watching it. It's an interesting one to go for,

00:58:38   but a complicated one because it is so chopped up. And Sky, who have the rights here, are very

00:58:45   closely linked with F1. So like outside of the UK, the Sky feed is the main feed. So like if you

00:58:53   watch it on ESPN, sometimes you get told about features for Sky customers on ESPN, which you

00:59:00   obviously can't get, but it's baked into the commentary. Super interesting. I would be

00:59:06   interested, intrigued to see if or if anything happens here. So yeah, so demographics are good

00:59:12   and it's international. And this is one of the things that I think Apple ideally wants.

00:59:16   There was a story last week talking to Eddy Cue, I guess, about a little bit about, or a story about

00:59:22   Eddy Cue and about sports rights and all of that, that I thought was really interesting.

00:59:26   International is better for Apple, right? Apple views itself as a global company.

00:59:30   It's a lot easier if it's something that you can buy and you can put everywhere. And there's a

00:59:34   couple ways to do that. The easy way is something like MLS that didn't really have international

00:59:39   partners and you just to speak of anyway, and you just buy it all and say, we're going to put this

00:59:44   everywhere in the world. And that allows Messi to be watched on Apple TV+ in, or on the MLS

00:59:49   league pass in Argentina and in Europe and wherever else. That's great. Okay, great.

00:59:56   But a lot of what sports are truly international like that, there are not that many. And F1 is one

01:00:02   of them. So that's interesting. It is interesting from a technological standpoint. The challenge

01:00:10   ends up being rights again. And I like, I'm intrigued by the idea that how does Apple solve

01:00:15   that? One of the ways Apple maybe solves that is swooping in and saying, we're going to make a deal

01:00:19   that's long-term and we will assume the rights in all territories as they expire. That sounds really

01:00:28   interesting, right? We will pay you and then as we pick up new territories, we will pay an increased

01:00:33   fee. We'll start with the ones that are expiring in '25, rolling until all the way till 2030. And

01:00:40   we'll actually go to 2032 with the deal, let's say. And we're going to pay you an average of

01:00:46   $2 billion a year over the course of the contract, but it'll be based on as the rights phase in to us.

01:00:52   All sounds really interesting and possible and something that Apple might want to do. And if you

01:00:58   throw in that with Drive to Survive and stuff like that, Apple would get on the documentary

01:01:03   train as well. They already are. Well, yeah. And we've seen two messy documentaries. That would

01:01:11   become a priority as well. So you build content around it. Yeah. I mean, just as a point,

01:01:15   they're making a documentary about Lewis Hamilton and then they have the movie, the Brad Pitt movie.

01:01:19   And then they also have the possibility of doing some stuff with linear partners.

01:01:28   That it's an interesting idea of what they could do. I will put out one caveat that I know from

01:01:34   other sports, which is sometimes the way these sports rights are written, you can't as an entity

01:01:42   negotiate a future version of the contract until a certain point. You're not technically allowed,

01:01:50   legally allowed to renegotiate. And in some cases there's a whole like for the year before it

01:01:57   expires or for a year period two years before it expires, you have exclusive renegotiation rights

01:02:05   as the rights holder. So that's my question is I'm not sure if F1 was like, yeah, we're going to take

01:02:11   $2 billion from Apple. It's going to run from 25 to 32. It's a done deal. We're going to take it up.

01:02:17   It'll start rolling out in 25 with the US and then roll across the rest of the world as those rights

01:02:21   expire. I don't know if they can make that deal is my only question. Because the sky say, well, no,

01:02:29   you can't negotiate with anyone for the rights until 29 when our rights are or 28 until right

01:02:35   before our rights expire. And we have a, we can match any offer, et cetera, et cetera.

01:02:40   So there's a lot of questions here, but everything about this report makes sense to me in terms of

01:02:47   how Apple and EdiQ are viewing their approach to sports. Yep. And Mark Gorman is reporting that

01:02:56   Apple is developing more search engine technology. So obviously Apple have their own search tools in

01:03:02   the app store and maps. Like they built their own stuff for that. As well as spotlight. This is like

01:03:08   Mark highlights some of this stuff. It's in John, Giannandrea's team. Giannandrea is the head of AI

01:03:16   and machine learning at Apple and apparently has a very large team. Mark Gorman calls it dedicated

01:03:21   to create and search technologies. Mark Gorman is reporting that this team is quote, now looking to

01:03:27   more deeply integrate Apple search features into iOS and Mac OS and potentially bolster the

01:03:34   technology of its new generative AI tools, a system known internally as Pegasus. Apple

01:03:40   are apparently hesitant to have their own web search become a thing due to its lucrative

01:03:45   agreement with Google, unless they're able to create a system that could generate their own

01:03:49   ad revenue. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. Also that Microsoft wanted Apple to buy Bing at one point.

01:03:57   Yes, that was a thing that was spoken about this week. Yes. And they couldn't come to an agreement

01:04:03   about it. I think this is fascinating, right? Because it's this idea that Apple is building

01:04:06   search tech, but the Google deal is so lucrative that they aren't gonna, you know, they aren't

01:04:12   gonna bother because Google pays them so well. Mark does suggest that potentially they use it

01:04:17   as like a negotiating chip as well. Also, right. Well, it's an Apple maps-esque kind of thing where

01:04:22   it's like, you don't have us over a barrel. We could build this or we could partner with

01:04:27   somebody else. And we know that they have so many, you know, huge ad ambitions that this could be a

01:04:34   part of. So, you know, it doesn't, I don't know. I think it's interesting. As a podcaster, I think

01:04:44   about Apple building, you know, how Apple's podcast crawler works where it's so, you know,

01:04:48   it's gotten better, but it's like, sometimes it misses things. You got to kick it a little bit and

01:04:54   all that. And I try to imagine a whole web crawler, but I guess they already do it. They've got a web

01:04:58   crawler and they use it and they surface it in some places and they surface Bing data in some

01:05:02   places. But primarily if you're in Safari, by default, you get Google and there's a huge deal

01:05:07   for that. I do wonder if with the legal case going on, if that there's also a hedge going on here

01:05:14   where Apple might realize like, if they can't make the, if they're not allowed to have that same kind

01:05:20   of deal with Google anymore, maybe that's when they put, you know, Plan B into place and Plan B

01:05:25   is not Bing or some kind of an auction. It's literally, no, we're going to just use Apple

01:05:31   search from now on and we're going to monetize it ourselves. We're going to make ads, we're going to

01:05:36   put ads all over search pages and that's how we're going to do it. I don't know. Do you think that

01:05:41   the Google, the, the, the Google, so the deal is that Google pays Apple billions of dollars to be

01:05:49   the default search engine on the iPhone when you search for something. Do you think that this

01:05:55   arrangement is in contrast to Apple's stance on privacy? I think it's complicated, but yes.

01:06:06   Okay. The simple version is yes. Like the simple version is if all, if there was no money on the

01:06:13   line, let's do it, think of it this way. If there was no money on the line and it was purely a

01:06:19   customer experience thing that Apple was caring about and that like the default search engine

01:06:27   didn't make Apple any money at all, regardless, I think they would either have built their own

01:06:33   search or they would use some, or they would have bought or would use DuckDuckGo or some other,

01:06:40   you know, there's some others out there, but that kind of thing, I think they would have gravitated

01:06:44   a long time ago toward a more privacy focused search engine, but it's an enormous amount of

01:06:51   money that they make from Google. And then, and then they are, they are by default turning their

01:06:57   users to what is, I will say probably the best search experience still, although search is

01:07:03   getting worse by the day, but it's probably the best one, but at the price of being in Google's

01:07:11   data funnel. And, you know, I, so I think that you could argue that Google is, I mean, I use

01:07:19   Google search because I've tried the others. I'm like, Nope, back to Google search. Right.

01:07:24   And that, that is a customer product quality kind of concern that you heard of.

01:07:28   I have heard of Kagi. It's getting a bit of buzz at the moment, which old school Mac users will

01:07:35   remember, used to be a completely different company and they went bankrupt. They heard a lot

01:07:39   of software developers and then somebody bought the domain and is making a new product and I'd say

01:07:44   four pay search engine. Was that like a payment system? Yeah, it was, it was Kagi was how you

01:07:51   bought your shareware back in the day. Yeah. I know this was of James Thompson. Yes. Yeah,

01:07:56   exactly. And they, and they went out of business and basically was like, Oh yeah, we owe you

01:08:00   developers a lot of money. You're not ever going to see it. You're not going to get it? Yeah.

01:08:03   You can search for it. I suppose. I guess now you can do that. Good luck. Just go to Kagi and say,

01:08:11   where's my money? You know? Yeah. So, uh, yeah, it's a paid, it's like a paid, you have to

01:08:17   subscribe to be in there search anyway. And this is my point is, is like, yes, Apple's choosing a

01:08:23   good product, but they're done. I don't think they're choosing it for those reasons. I think

01:08:26   they're choosing it because of money. And if all they cared about was privacy and not money,

01:08:32   they would have a different default search experience or they would have a, you know,

01:08:37   little thing that came up and said, Oh, choose your search engine, but they do not. You have to

01:08:44   go dig in the settings if you want to change your search engine. Yeah. I feel like that would

01:08:47   probably be the way it would work that they would ask you. Right. I feel like that that's what would

01:08:52   happen. Probably didn't pay them money because you're using Bing now. Everybody's using Bing now

01:08:59   and users would be like, what did you do? And so instead they would ask also even, I mean,

01:09:04   I'm curious about the Apple Google deal because there's, I mean, the exclusivity is obviously

01:09:11   part of it, but surely you could, and maybe this will be the end result of all of this, um,

01:09:16   litigation that's going on the idea that maybe it's just all based on affiliate revenue,

01:09:26   essentially that like ad served that come from these, from Apple's Safari, Apple gets a

01:09:33   percentage of it and that's what Apple gets paid. I just think it's best if there's no money that

01:09:39   changes hands. And they, well, the problem is, is that they're feeding Google's business.

01:09:43   So money is changing hands. So, but you could do it where it's like, look, Apple makes money

01:09:48   regardless because everybody who owns a search engine pays us if we, if you set it as the default.

01:09:56   I think that there's, yeah, you're right. I think it would be best if money did not change hands,

01:10:00   but if that's the case, then I think Apple would just go to their own search engine and make money

01:10:04   off of ad placements on their search engine. Cause like there's money to be made in search.

01:10:08   If we were saying that any search, like then it's like, well,

01:10:11   couldn't any website have to pay Apple that, you know what I mean? Like,

01:10:14   just because you're using Safari, like, like it gets weird.

01:10:17   Well, I mean, I would prefer, I would prefer if Apple and Google did not have this deal. I just

01:10:23   think it muddies things in a way that annoys me, right. That like we have app tracking transparency

01:10:28   on one end. And then we also have like Google was the default web tracking obscurity on the other

01:10:35   end. And it's all just like, I don't know where this deal sits in that flow. It's just like a

01:10:41   very strange thing to me. I'm sure that you are making an argument that's been made inside Apple,

01:10:45   which is this is what we should do. And I think what it is is this is what we should do. We should

01:10:49   do our own search engine and we can monetize it as we like. But as we know from Apple,

01:10:53   philosophically Apple thinks, well, but when we do it, it isn't evil, right? Because we're Apple

01:10:57   and you trust us and we're not going to do hinky things with the data. We're going to serve you ads

01:11:02   like we do on the app store, but we're not going to do all the stuff that Google does with your data.

01:11:06   We're not going to build a profile that we share with other people. We're not going to do any of

01:11:09   that. We're just going to be Apple and you trust us, right? Like that. And that's the thing we can

01:11:13   argue about what they're saying there and how self-serving it is. And do they really mean it?

01:11:17   And are they truly not tracking you, which of course they are, but they're tracking you inside

01:11:21   Apple, which is a first party and therefore they don't consider it hinky. They think it's fine

01:11:26   because it's Apple, but that would be their argument, right? Is ultimately, and I'm sure

01:11:31   those people get shouted down by the people who are like $9 billion a year. They're like, okay,

01:11:36   well you win this one, but we'll just sit here and wait for the day.

01:11:40   This conversation may happen a lot. And then it gets to the point where they're like, oh,

01:11:44   but this comes out of services revenue. And then they go, well, oh no, our stock price.

01:11:49   And then they don't do it because if one year, all of a sudden billions of dollars has disappeared

01:11:55   from the part that's meant to be saving the company into the future and in Wall Street,

01:12:00   like they just say, oh no, we can't do this. And then we move on.

01:12:03   - Yeah, no, that's it. It's literally, there's a meeting where it's like, okay,

01:12:06   here are all the reasons. I got a keynote here. Here are all the reasons we should use our own

01:12:11   search. And it's like, it's better for users. We make money on ads, you know, da, da, da.

01:12:17   And then literally the person at the other end of the table says, oh no, our stock price.

01:12:22   - And then the end of the conversation. - And that's why it will take like a legal

01:12:27   ruling, I think. And that's why I think that this is going on in the background is like,

01:12:31   we need to have the ability to switch gears if the spigot dries up. 'Cause Google could also be like,

01:12:39   you know, you can do what you want with us. We're not gonna make this deal anymore. Or Google might

01:12:44   say, guys, we can't make this deal anymore. They're looking at us. So I don't know. I don't

01:12:51   know. But I do think ultimately it would be better for users' privacy. The question is,

01:12:56   would an Apple search engine be any good? Good question. I don't know.

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01:16:02   This might be the last time now truly that we go to the B-Tails, Jason Snell, to talk about Mac OS

01:16:13   Sonoma. Yeah, the B-Tails will be back. The B-Tails will return. The B-Tails will return. It's the end

01:16:18   of... I mean, well, there'll be... it's gonna be betas with new features in it. The B-Tails may be

01:16:23   surprisingly resilient, but yeah, Mac OS Sonoma shipped. Hooray! Hooray! Hooray! I did a bunch of...

01:16:30   I have a bunch of computers that I had like this computer runs Sonoma and this computer is not

01:16:35   running Sonoma so I can do... and all of that is over now. I've switched back to various computers

01:16:43   that were previously sort of like replaced with beta versions and all that. Anyway,

01:16:47   so yeah, Sonoma everywhere now. Yeah, I was just planning on putting Sonoma on my MacBook Air.

01:16:55   I was not planning on putting it on my MacBook Pro, which is my recording machine, because I

01:17:01   always like to just wait it out a little bit just in case. Yeah. But then I went to Safari

01:17:08   and I'd enabled profiles and then couldn't access any of my tab groups. So now both of my machines

01:17:15   are on Sonoma because I need to be able to use my web browser in the way that I'm used to using it.

01:17:22   That's how they get you. That's how they get you. You called it in your review "Small... like the

01:17:26   updates are small but in all the best ways. I suspect that most Mac OS users just want

01:17:31   incremental improvements about disruptive changes. Slow and steady wins the race."

01:17:34   I think there's something to that, that the idea that sometimes these updates get judged on like

01:17:42   how many things got poured into them, how many new features, how many extra things. And it feels like,

01:17:47   I mean iOS you could say this too, but certainly on the Mac that's been around for so long now,

01:17:52   that I don't think most Mac users want their OS updates to like completely change how they use

01:17:59   their Mac, right? Like they don't. They want some incremental improvements and they want the

01:18:04   platform improvements that are across all of Apple's platforms, but I don't think they want

01:18:08   to be disrupted. I think they just want it to get better every year. And that's the good thing about

01:18:12   Sonoma is that it is not disruptive really, but it does add a bunch of new features and some of them

01:18:18   are very nice. I was very impressed with some of the like detail work that Apple did.

01:18:21   I want to talk about a few areas, I think the key areas. I can see five of them and I also,

01:18:29   these came from your review. So I think these are kind of like the key parts. Widget is probably the

01:18:34   biggest feature I reckon for most people. Whether you want it or not, like it's a big change. So we

01:18:40   have widgets on the desktop, they're interactive as well. You don't seem to be a big fan of widgets

01:18:48   on the Mac. No, it's not like, I just had a realization that I don't dislike them. I think they

01:18:56   make less of an impact than they do on iOS and iPad OS. I think that's the thing, that's a point

01:19:02   that I wanted to make there is that they are, because so much of iOS and iPad OS is one app at

01:19:09   a time, home screen's really important. You put things on the home screen, you get your apps there.

01:19:14   It's a more powerful thing and also interactive widgets. The idea that when you're out on the home

01:19:24   screen, you don't need to launch an app. You can just very quickly interact with a widget.

01:19:28   I had this moment of realization where I was writing about, "Oh, widgets are now interactive."

01:19:34   So for example, and I thought about it and I was like, "For example, you could put a to-do,

01:19:38   like a reminders widget on your desktop and check the boxes off." And I thought,

01:19:44   "Or you could just keep reminders open and check the boxes off." Does that make sense? The idea

01:19:52   that on a Mac, having a bunch of apps open and a bunch of windows in various places, that's just

01:19:58   how the Mac works. And so I don't see the need to have my reminders widget open on my desktop. I

01:20:05   could just have reminders open and put it wherever it is. And it's the whole app. And when I click on

01:20:10   it, I have the whole app there. And so that's part of it. It's just, it's less, again, not that

01:20:16   interactive widgets are bad, but they have less appeal on the Mac. And the widgets on the desktop,

01:20:22   it's good, but the average Mac user, not all of us, a lot of us have big screens, but like the

01:20:28   Mac most people use is a laptop, which means there's not a lot of screen real estate, which

01:20:32   means you probably got a lot of windows open, which means you probably don't see a lot of your desktop

01:20:36   and that's where they're hiding. So they're not ambient. You have to go looking for them,

01:20:41   which was the problem in Notification Center. It's not as bad as Notification Center. They set the

01:20:45   default that if you literally click on the wallpaper on the desktop, everything hides.

01:20:50   Plus there's a keyboard shortcut. Plus there's a trackpad gesture. There's lots of ways to get

01:20:54   there, but by sticking them on the desktop, they are behind your content. And on a 27 inch monitor,

01:21:00   there's room. I can see spaces on my desktop. On my MacBook Air, there's not so much room and

01:21:05   they're less useful there. And also the scale is weird on the Mac. Like they're, they're kind of

01:21:11   too big. Everything's kind of a little bit, I think too big. And I think that's just a scale

01:21:17   thing between macOS and iOS, that the scale is different, but they feel unnecessarily large,

01:21:23   which means they take up even more space than you maybe need them to. All of this said, I don't

01:21:28   think they're bad. I like widgets. I think widgets are fun. I think the fact that you can run iPhone

01:21:33   widgets from your iPhone and put them on your Mac is great because there's certain apps that don't

01:21:37   run on the Mac, even though they should, because they're iPhone only or because they've unchecked

01:21:41   that box and they're like, no, this app cannot be available on the Mac. I don't understand it. It's

01:21:46   very frustrating. Now you can get those widgets to run. That's really great too. Like there's a lot,

01:21:51   the way you place them on the screen is really nice where it sort of lets you freely place them,

01:21:57   but if they're near another widget, it'll give you like some alignment guides so you can make

01:22:02   them like look all nice. It's really well done. And if you've got a lot of files on your desktop,

01:22:08   they all move out of the way magically as you drag the widget around to place it and then they stay

01:22:14   away from it. So there's a lot of good detail here. I just had that moment where I thought to myself,

01:22:18   I'm less excited about widgets on the Mac and interactive widgets on the Mac than I am on

01:22:25   Apple's other platforms because they feel very much like they're like an A plus, okay, maybe not.

01:22:30   They're a grade A, let's say idea on an iPhone or an iPad on the Mac. It's like a B or a B minus.

01:22:39   It's just not as amazing because the Mac is the Mac and if that makes any sense.

01:22:46   So I really like them. One of the things that helps me use the widgets more is I'm a stage

01:22:54   manager user where you cannot turn off the clicking on the desktop shows you to desktop.

01:22:59   It's just not available for you to turn off. So I see them more because, and also just being a

01:23:05   stage manager user, you just see your desktop more all the time because that's just how it is.

01:23:10   So it actually works pretty well for my use case and I like having them there. As you mentioned,

01:23:17   I only have a couple of windows at a time and I'm able to position some widgets in ways that

01:23:21   I'm going to see them when I need them. I can see some shortcuts widgets that I might want to use

01:23:27   while I'm recording. I can see my timer thing while I'm recording so I can see my time trackers

01:23:32   that are going on. I really like it but I have a request for Apple that I'm going to make on this

01:23:37   show. I would like Apple to take a look at iPad OS and learn from it. So on iPad OS in portrait

01:23:44   and landscape orientation you can set your home screens independently and when you move from,

01:23:51   maybe people don't know this, but whatever layout you do in portrait you can put your iPad into

01:23:57   landscape. You can set a different layout and it remembers both layouts. And the widgets can go

01:24:02   anywhere. It's free placement basically so you can even put them way down where there aren't icons

01:24:09   and it will work. It's true. With the laptop and external display situation it is a nightmare

01:24:17   because if I open my laptop screen they're in a completely different order to what I left them in

01:24:27   on my desktop and then when I plug it back into my screen they weren't where I left them last time.

01:24:34   If you're a laptop user every time you dare to open your laptop your widgets all move and they

01:24:42   never go back to the way that you set them to. That is wild to me that they shipped it this way.

01:24:48   I just can't I cannot understand how that happened but that happened. I would like the locations to

01:24:55   be remembered. I even had one today where I was testing this out before the show where I set all

01:25:03   my widgets up and I unplugged it and I opened my MacBook Air and I had two widgets overlapping each

01:25:08   other which was fun. So I had a big widget and a small widget in the middle of the big widget for a

01:25:13   different app. They just one had just gone on top of the other and this is in Sonoma as it's shipping

01:25:21   to the world today. But big fan of widgets I hope that they maybe tighten that up a little bit

01:25:29   but I think that it's a cool feature that I'm happy to have. I think it would be better if it were

01:25:35   yeah there's some detail work that could be done I'd like the scaling to change honestly.

01:25:39   I would like it to be either I'd like to be able to bring them to the top instead of having to hide

01:25:47   all your windows because I think that there's a scenario where you might want to widget on top

01:25:51   but see the content that's in your windows in order to or just either pin it on top or temporarily

01:25:57   bring it to the top. But yeah I would like some more placement because they're like right now

01:26:01   they're like stickers stuck on the wallpaper right they don't ever leave that bottom layer.

01:26:07   And I can see scenarios where I'd actually like to have them either floating like a picture-in-picture

01:26:13   window or temporarily above my content so I could do for example like look at the Google

01:26:18   doc in front of me while I put something in a interactive widget and they don't do that.

01:26:23   Like the only way to do that is to move your windows around so that the widget is visible

01:26:27   and your window is visible and all that. I didn't even mention the other reason that I'm

01:26:33   less excited about them is Mac has the dock and it has the menu bar so it's got lots of other places

01:26:40   where you can put stuff and so the widgets although they're nice again they feel less essential because

01:26:45   the Mac has already solved a bunch of these problems and so yeah that's part of the story.

01:26:51   Now video screensavers you said I'm incredibly impressed at the fit and finish Apple has put

01:26:57   into the transition from screensaver to desktop so this is like the Apple TV like movies and then

01:27:03   they fade into the desktop you really seem to like this feature. Yeah it's just this is another one of

01:27:09   those examples of them doing detail work that's not necessary. I think I mentioned this one when

01:27:15   it went into beta but like they've got okay they've got all the aerial screensavers and they've got

01:27:20   from Apple TV and you can make them not only your screensaver but your desktop and everybody expects

01:27:28   that I think the what what do you think that feature would work like? You would think that it

01:27:33   would be that when the screensaver is done and you're back to your computer there's like a bloop

01:27:40   and it goes from your screensaver to the backdrop and they're from the same you know they're from

01:27:47   the same image from the same movie but they're not obviously they're not the same or if you give them

01:27:53   a little more credit you'd say there that it you know you do that and it immediately stops and the

01:27:58   frame that you're on is that is now your wallpaper and that's not what happens. Instead when you go

01:28:04   from the screensaver to logging in or you know or unlocking or whatever you do what happens is

01:28:10   the screensaver video keeps playing in the background on your wallpaper and slowly coasts

01:28:15   to a halt and then that's your wallpaper and like that is completely unnecessary but it is the right

01:28:23   way to do it and it is beautiful to see and every time I see it I'm delighted by it but and that that

01:28:29   is I love those moments where I think yeah that's an Apple feature that is Apple going the extra mile

01:28:34   to make something nice that we as computer users get beaten down and we're like yeah remember when

01:28:42   with Apple silicon they did the thing where in the display control panel when you changed

01:28:46   resolutions it just changed them and it used to be on Intel and prior to that like your screen would

01:28:52   black out yeah and and then come back and you made it so you clicked and it just changed and you're

01:28:59   like what what happened this is a little like that which is like we're so beaten down that we're like

01:29:02   well of course when the screensaver ends there's gonna be a blink or a black screen or something's

01:29:07   gonna be a discontinuity is gonna happen and then I'll log in and then maybe or you know I'll touch

01:29:12   ID or whatever and maybe it'll go to my thing and it'll be fine like and and somebody at Apple is

01:29:18   like no no no that's don't do that like there's got to be a better way we should not accept

01:29:24   that discontinuity that's just being lazy we could do better and I love it when Apple does that

01:29:30   because that to me is like that is the Apple thing that is Apple actually caring about the detail

01:29:35   work of of of having the screensaver delightfully transition into a background and kind of coasting

01:29:45   down to a stop it's just is it a world-changing feature no that's actually kind of why it

01:29:50   impresses me as they put the work into something that is just a kind of pleasant feature when

01:29:57   you're using your Mac just a little pleasant thing and the fact that they did that I just I'm very

01:30:02   impressed I'm impressed that they went to the trouble they added a bunch of video controls and

01:30:07   effects yeah yeah this is actually another place where they did extra right so they're basically

01:30:11   hijacking the video source of a camera and processing it and they're using all of the

01:30:16   machine learning technology they built for the iPhone camera to do stuff like subject detection

01:30:22   and background detection and that's how you get portrait mode and that's how you get studio light

01:30:29   right so the portrait mode blurs the background studio light they're detecting the user in the

01:30:32   foreground the person the subjects and they're lightening them and darkening the background or

01:30:37   maybe they're not touching the background they're just lightening the the foreground but the idea

01:30:41   there is those are features that are happening because Apple's got this whole pipeline where

01:30:44   they're taking the input from the camera and then they're detecting on the fly the background and

01:30:50   the subject and then they can do things with that but once you've got that in the pipeline so the

01:30:55   apps don't need it the Apple's apps don't need to like say hey give me portrait mode or whatever

01:30:58   it's a system level thing the apps just get a camera that's actually the processed output from

01:31:04   Apple's from the video subsystem that's very impressive but what happened clearly is that

01:31:11   everybody at Apple's like okay we got this now what can we do with it like we've got all our

01:31:16   video segmented with foreground and background what can we do and so they built all of those

01:31:21   silly video effects like the confetti and the fireworks and stuff and like the confetti

01:31:26   falls behind you and in front of you like because they can do that because they know where you are

01:31:32   and they know where your background is and so they can put layered animations in and then pass that

01:31:36   through and then obviously since they're processing they can do gesture detection so if you do two

01:31:42   thumbs up you'll get confetti and if you do the devil horns you'll get the laser show right like

01:31:48   these are all things that that they can do because they're processing every frame of video and running

01:31:52   it through the neural engine and they're doing all this fancy stuff and it's very cool but they also

01:31:59   they added controls which is nice so that you can actually choose where you want to zoom and pan on

01:32:05   something like the studio display or a continuity camera they added for people who are tired of the

01:32:10   center stage moving around there's a there's like a center button that you can click that centers

01:32:20   the image on you and then stops which is really nice a lot of details where we heard when I

01:32:26   complained about this I know that we heard from people who are like apple will never do webcam

01:32:31   settings it's too you know it's too complicated and like well they did them they did them and

01:32:36   they're pretty good but the one that really gets me is the keynote stuff or really it's any any

01:32:42   it's not keynote it's voip presentations so it can be any app any window and with some app I think

01:32:49   apps have to be updated to support it any you know any video conferencing app you click on the little

01:32:56   green button on any window and you can choose share this window into that app and now you're

01:33:02   and you don't have to use the apps like window sharing ui you can literally just click on the

01:33:06   window and say share this window and then within there they've got these two different ways of

01:33:12   putting your video in the window one of them is the window appears behind you like it's floating

01:33:19   and and if you think about it okay they know the foreground they know the background

01:33:25   so they can they can layer in your screen share between you and the background like it's floating

01:33:31   and they do all the little things like center stage knows that there's a window over there so

01:33:34   it doesn't center you it puts you to the side so that you're not blocking the window really smart

01:33:41   and then their other one is the one that made me laugh it's so hilariously unnecessary and yet they

01:33:47   did it which is there's a small version where you're in the window instead of it showing you

01:33:51   in your background it just shows the window and then there's a little circle and your face is in

01:33:56   it you like a little cartoon character yeah except again we all can imagine that feature right they

01:34:03   crop they center crop and they use center stage and their face detection or whatever and they

01:34:07   center crop around your face and you appear in a little circle that's not what they did they

01:34:12   detect your foreground they detect you right they detect the background they remove the background

01:34:19   and just put a blank background back there they keep your head and then they've got the circle

01:34:23   so it's like your shoulders and the circle and the background but that's not it either you're not in

01:34:28   the circle the top of your head kind of like pops out of the circle yeah you're like popping out of

01:34:33   a little hole right it's totally and this is what i'm saying is like is this necessary no it's

01:34:39   totally unnecessary but it's really nice it's leveraging the technology they built in their

01:34:44   video pipeline to do something that's just a little nice detail and again to to me that is the

01:34:52   apple touch that we don't always see but you know it when you see it and that that again completely

01:35:01   unnecessary but delightful and with this really impressive technical backing um and i love that i

01:35:07   mean they clearly were like okay if we're gonna do this what can we do with this technology of

01:35:14   intercepting the video stream knowing the background knowing the foreground uh you know

01:35:18   having the center stage access and studio light and all these things what could we do and this is

01:35:24   one of the things they came up with and it's really nice um so yeah it's you may not ever use this

01:35:30   feature but uh i just i appreciate they went to the trouble because this is i just i love that

01:35:37   that thing that it's like this is not necessary but apple decided to do it and it's delightful

01:35:42   i think maybe you could probably issue similar praise to screen sharing high performance mode

01:35:47   where in your review you said this feature alone will get me to upgrade my server to mac os sonoma

01:35:52   yeah they basically screen sharing used to be this kind of like hidden app that would launch when you

01:35:56   were in like the sharing in the finder and you're like clicked on a computer on your network and

01:36:02   chose share screen was sort of how you got it and now it's got a complete ui you know it lists all

01:36:07   your recent servers and all that but they added this high performance mode if you're connecting

01:36:11   you're on an apple silicon mac connecting to an apple silicon mac and they're both running sonoma

01:36:16   it enters this high performance mode which you know is obviously going down at a deep level if

01:36:21   you connect to a laptop that's open sitting next to you the laptop screen like goes off

01:36:26   like it's you are taking it over wow but the result is again i've gotten used to screen

01:36:36   sharing with my server in my house and think oh it looks pretty good and then i open this mode and

01:36:43   it no it doesn't look pretty good it looks acceptable for what it is which is screen sharing

01:36:49   this new mode it feels like i'm using that computer it really does feel like i've just i'm

01:36:54   now i've teleported and i'm using that computer it is it is crystal clear this maybe is how the

01:37:00   vision pro works it's possible it's the same setup especially since the laptop screen goes off when

01:37:07   you do it it's possible you saying the laptop screen goes off made me think that this might

01:37:11   be what they're using for the vision pro to make that work yeah and this is my understanding is

01:37:16   this is uh zach's asking about like screens on the ipad this is an apple thing and there's no

01:37:23   apple screen sharing app in on the ipad so i think not i think this is a uh a mac only feature for

01:37:29   now although they really should add it to the ipad that would be great um but it's it's very good

01:37:35   and um i'm i'm anybody who's using screen sharing and again that's a tiny percentage of people but

01:37:40   i love that they gave this app some love and um and it will get me to upgrade my server to

01:37:46   sonoma because i want to connect using that uh because it looks it just looks way better also

01:37:50   it'll do like audio and stuff and apple claims that you could like edit video using this mode

01:37:55   and i'm my audio was a little distorted when i was using it but just like even if that is possible

01:38:02   that's kind of it is kind of amazing so yeah so serious upgrade to screen sharing

01:38:06   so safari added a feature called profiles which i was very excited about because it would let me

01:38:14   have i would and i have set up three profiles i have a personal profile for just stuff for me

01:38:21   i have a relay fm profile for my podcasting work and i have a cortex brand profile for my cortex

01:38:26   brand work part of the reason i wanted this feature is that each of these things sometimes

01:38:34   require me to sign in to backends of services yes for each of these things so it like becomes really

01:38:41   complicated for like amen and so i was really happy to have this feature it takes a bit to set

01:38:47   up because like it doesn't even seem to remember some of the uh like it doesn't share your search

01:38:53   history it seems like between them so you got to do that you got to re-enable some extensions like

01:38:57   it takes a little bit of time to set up um the implementation on sonoma i actually think is worse

01:39:04   than the implementation on ios because on ios and ipad os i can toggle the same like app between each

01:39:15   profile but on mac os you switch to a new window each time like it's not like a save state so i now

01:39:25   on my mac have three safari windows open all the time and then i just switch between them which

01:39:31   that is definitely a downside but the upside of this feature is much higher for me but what i

01:39:37   would like to be able to do is just to be able to toggle between them but what it makes you do is

01:39:44   open a new window each time you want to toggle between them which is a strange way of doing it

01:39:50   but that's the way that i decided to do it on the mac which is odd i don't really know why it is that

01:39:56   way i like this feature too i'm using it for youtube believe it or not that's what i have

01:40:03   yeah i have my whole world in one particular google account and then everything i do on

01:40:10   youtube is in a different account and i end up having to be logged into both and and it has

01:40:16   really negative effects because as you know because this happens with our google docs for this show

01:40:23   um i don't know why google does this i don't know why it's so frustrating sometimes it just decides

01:40:30   oh you've got you're logged into two accounts i'm going to use this other account for this for this

01:40:36   google doc it's like no i never want to use that account with this google doc but you can't really

01:40:41   set a default the only real way to get it to work um every time is to log out of the other account

01:40:49   but that's the account i need for youtube so frustrating so now i have a youtube profile

01:40:57   that is logged into that account and i have a personal profile that is literally everything else

01:41:04   just so that i can keep the youtube login completely separate so it doesn't keep hijacking

01:41:09   all my other google stuff but it works great my only problem there is the ui once you switch

01:41:18   and you have a youtube window open it wants every other window to be a youtube window

01:41:23   and i don't want that i actually i want it to be and i don't think there's a you can set a default

01:41:31   but that's not the same thing i would like to be able to say all new windows open in this profile

01:41:38   yeah this is part of the tab group problem too tab groups works like this exactly 99 of the time i

01:41:44   want it to be in not a tab group and personal profile um but it does this thing where like if

01:41:51   i'm in youtube profile it thinks everything i click on everything i want to do is in youtube

01:41:56   profile and it's like no i make a new window it's in youtube profile i have to turn it back to

01:42:00   personal i don't like that i want it to just be only go into the other profile when i tell you to

01:42:06   otherwise have a default profile and there is a default but it doesn't stick yeah across based on

01:42:11   the state of the current window it doesn't stick and i it drives me nuts so yeah like and it's also

01:42:19   the thing that i want where you could switch between them you can do that if you open a blank

01:42:25   new window you can switch that window between the other profiles but as soon as you navigate to a

01:42:31   web page it doesn't let you do that anymore and it will now only ever open a new window with a

01:42:39   different profile in it so it turns out that it remaps the keyboard shortcuts too in the file menu

01:42:45   so when i'm in a youtube window there is a new personal window keyboard shortcut that is option

01:42:51   shift command zero okay all right i mean that's cool to know but what i would like i would like

01:43:00   is to say no no no command n always means personal window and then give me another shortcut for my

01:43:08   others it's the default i don't know what it would be but like command n or option shift command one

01:43:14   it's like they're not like that's hard for me to remember you know what i mean like like they're

01:43:19   quite different those those window shortcuts but like for me while i find this frustrating it is

01:43:25   not surprising because i've been a tab groups user and some of the way that tab groups defaults work

01:43:30   has been weird i am at least getting what i want out of this which is i'm able to to move things

01:43:36   away and i will say as well like especially on ios the fact that if i want to go from one profile to

01:43:42   another is multiple taps i actually like that because it's adding a hurdle for me to then go

01:43:46   to one of my work profiles while i'm on my iphone so it's like i like those things sometimes like

01:43:52   make it just a little bit harder for me to get to the work that i maybe shouldn't be doing at that

01:43:57   time so yeah i agree i also want to add in one thing that i know you won't use but i am happy

01:44:02   about which is the predictive text stuff from ios and mac os is also from ios is also on mac os so

01:44:09   i can press the space bar to finish words and sometimes sentences which i'm really happy about

01:44:13   because i love that feature and it's great here too i i maybe didn't know this or miss this that

01:44:20   they were bringing the transformer model to the mac i assume this is probably an apple silicon only

01:44:24   feature but i started typing i was like oh it's there and i could press the space bar and have to

01:44:29   type less and i love it um we are running long today so i'm going to bring in an ask upgrade

01:44:36   question now into this segment oh instead of doing our upgrade today so half one and a half lasers

01:44:42   uh we haven't actually left the details so we're like we're like a stack in now jb asks have you

01:44:48   tried running electron apps like slack or discord as a sonoma safari web app i'm looking forward to

01:44:54   doing so in order to reduce memory usage and improve battery life on my machine but i'm curious

01:44:59   if it works well in practice i don't understand how this would be better um you know web apps are

01:45:07   web apps i think i think that there's some misconceptions here from jb about exactly how this

01:45:12   thing works and the resource load yeah i think it would be kind of similar the other problem is that

01:45:18   you're also losing features so like slack doesn't let you as far as i could tell switch between

01:45:22   instances so you just have to have like multiple windows open for each of your slack instances i

01:45:27   also don't understand why you wouldn't just download i mean like i know like the electron

01:45:31   electron like just download slack the only thing that i have found as a as a problem with

01:45:37   electron apps per se is like some that i use is every update is like 250 megabytes right because

01:45:43   you're basically re-downloading the entire thing every time like that could be annoying but yeah

01:45:47   give it a shot i have tried it and what i found is that i hate it and so i have not used it for

01:45:54   an extended amount of time in order to uh like it just doesn't work the way i use slack or discord

01:46:01   it just doesn't work that way and you end up in a situation where i've got a substandard slack or

01:46:05   discord experience and running those apps don't bother me running them in safari or standalone

01:46:13   safari that they bother me so i'm not going to do it so i i can't report back and say oh yes but

01:46:19   memory usage and battery life improved i i can't answer that question for you if it works for you

01:46:24   give it a try but i don't have an answer there i think that they're inferior experiences and that

01:46:29   the the apps actually are better um i did i was impressed with the gmail web app you know i used

01:46:34   a mail plane for a long time to put up sort of like an app wrapper around gmail and it did a

01:46:40   bunch of things that the gmail web app obviously doesn't do but i was impressed that they are using

01:46:44   all of the sort of like app detection stuff so that apple uh has built in so like when you open

01:46:50   gmail in the new safari you get a little thing at the top about a banner that says would you like to

01:46:54   open this in its own app wrapper basically and it'll save it they all save to user your user

01:47:00   folder slash applications which is funny so it's not it's not in your regular applications folder

01:47:05   but yeah oh yeah because this is i was actually going to ask you a question because like yeah

01:47:12   the the way you do this is you invoke a menu command said add to doc right add to doc and i

01:47:18   don't want them in my dock necessarily yeah well it's very much like shortcuts where you add it to

01:47:22   the dock and what it does is it actually puts it in use your user folder slash applications

01:47:27   and then you can take it out of the dock so okay so i've had a weird thing happening where

01:47:31   i created a couple of these apps just to try them out right and remove them from the doc and then

01:47:37   they i thought they disappeared and now when i go to google docs it's like hey do you want to open

01:47:43   the web app and i'm like what are you talking about because i thought i deleted it well obviously

01:47:46   i haven't but it's not in the applications folder but why would i assume folder applications

01:47:52   somewhere else along with shortcuts and steam apps that's where they all go uh they're all in there

01:47:58   they've done it that way why don't they put it in the applications folder i don't know i think you

01:48:02   can put it there but it's not there anyway the gmail one it's pretty nice it's not as it's not

01:48:06   as nice as um mail plane because mail plane did lots of like mac keyboard shortcuts and and things

01:48:13   that when you're fully integrated with the mac system you could do but you know what if mail

01:48:17   plane had died and mime stream hadn't come um i would have this would have been like a moment of

01:48:23   if mail plane then died i would be like ah i can use gmail and it's close enough but i i'm all in on

01:48:28   my stream now so it doesn't it doesn't matter but like i think it's cool i'm a big fan of this idea

01:48:33   of the single site browser i've been for a while i'm glad that apple has finally embraced it because

01:48:37   i one of the things i hate the thing i hate the most about like oh rely on this website like it's

01:48:43   an app is it's just another window or it's just another tab in safari and like i'm using safari

01:48:48   all day it's so easy to close a tab close a window and you're like ah but my thing just disappeared

01:48:54   and i kind of would prefer app style management right where it's like oh no gmail is in its own

01:49:00   little you know quote unquote app it lives over there i can hide it or show it as i choose i can

01:49:06   command tab to it and it's not one of my many open safari windows and you know i i'm a minimalist i

01:49:12   don't like many open safari windows but the idea that like that web app just lives in its own

01:49:17   little space i really like that i've always liked that and so for apple to embrace it is really good

01:49:23   um but yes look in look in uh your user folders applications folder to discover surprise there

01:49:29   might be things in there that's where they are i had no idea and that's when you add shortcuts

01:49:33   to the dock it's the same thing you can just take them right out of the dock but now you've got a

01:49:37   clickable like application in in finder i want to finish this conversation by uh quoting from your

01:49:45   from your conclusion you say i sort of miss the days when every mac os version would bring massive

01:49:51   changes to the entire concept of the operating system but i also kind of dumped two decades in

01:49:56   stability should be a hallmark of the modern mac os but apple should never stop striving to make

01:50:01   the experience better that's what mac os sonoma manages to accomplish yeah i mean if every update

01:50:08   was like this one i think i'd be pretty happy it they're they're importing all of the um platform

01:50:14   features from across ios ipad os and mac os they added some nice detail work to mac features they

01:50:19   made sure that some of the ios features work better or differently on the mac you know it could

01:50:24   it be more yes but on one level as i just as i said in that thing that you read um i don't need

01:50:31   it to be more like i don't need it i don't need more i need it to be stable and i need it to be

01:50:36   nicer over time um and and sonoma for me that's what sonoma is it's nicer and um there are a lot

01:50:44   of surprisingly nice little details that give me actually hope for apple how apple views the mac

01:50:51   like that they took the extra effort to build these features i i i love that i would also just

01:50:59   like to say that i'm very thankful that it came out in september like i know it must be really

01:51:03   hard to get all this stuff to match up but i'm just happy that i'm able to take advantage of all

01:51:09   of the cross-platform features within seven days of each other rather than a month like i'm sure

01:51:15   when mac os has to go into october there's a good reason for it but i just want to note that when

01:51:20   they are able to do them close to each other i just think it's really nice and i'm very happy

01:51:24   for it because then because if that would have happened you know like i maybe would have turned

01:51:27   on profiles on my iphone and then it's like well now i can't use my browser on my mac either so

01:51:33   i'm actually really happy i didn't turn that feature on which you can turn on on your iphone

01:51:38   that's the first place but it's like buried in settings you can send us your feedback follow-up

01:51:44   and questions we will do more ask upgrade next week over at upgrade feedback.com you can check

01:51:49   out jason's reviews and all of his work over at sixcolors.com and here he's podcast at the

01:51:54   incomparable.com and here on relay fm where you'll hear my shows as well you can check out my work

01:51:59   cortexbrand.com also we're on mastodon jason is at jay snell on zeppelin.flights i am at i mike i

01:52:06   m y k e on mike.social you can find upgrade as upgrade at relay fm.social that's where you can

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01:52:19   where we are at upgrade relay we're also on threads i'm i mike jason is jason l thank you

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01:52:48   then say goodbye jason snow goodbye mike hurley