478: Hi, We’re the Weirdos

0:00:00[Music]

0:00:08From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, Episode 478 for September 25th, 2023.

0:00:16This show is brought to you by Factor, Vitaly, and Ladder.

0:00:21My name is Mike Hurley and I am joined by Jason Snell. Hi, Jason Snell.

0:00:24Mike, I'm joining you from across the table. High five! Yay!

0:00:29We are currently situated inside of the pod cabin, which is Steven Hackett's studio.

0:00:34We would like to extend our thanks to Steven Hackett for providing his studio for Upgrade to be recorded today.

0:00:40He left. Like, he didn't want to disturb the magic of whatever this is.

0:00:47Well, the usual way that this magic begins is of a Snell Talk question.

0:00:51And Marlies wants to ask, "Jason, while in Memphis, did you get to see the train that Steven is so fond of?"

0:00:59Steven is... There's a train, right, in Memphis that makes...

0:01:04There are lots of trains.

0:01:05There are so many trains.

0:01:06Yes. And Steven told me yesterday there's lots of trains in Memphis because there aren't many places where you have both river, air, and rail.

0:01:16So, like, Memphis is a cargo town for sure. Which is very funny because Memphis...

0:01:23It's probably why FedEx is here.

0:01:24Well...

0:01:26Or is FedEx the reason it's such a cargo town?

0:01:27I think FedEx is the reason.

0:01:28I bet it's both. I bet it's the geography leading to FedEx leading to everything else.

0:01:32My favorite thing about... Well, my favorite and least favorite thing about Memphis is the airport.

0:01:38It's my least favorite because it's so hard for me to get here as exhibited by last week's Upgrade Plus.

0:01:43Which, by the way, go to GetUpgradePlus.com and you can listen to last week's Upgrade Plus where I told a 20-minute story of my trip through Miami

0:01:53and why we were delayed a day and how we slept in the airport and stuff like that.

0:01:56So, Memphis is called Memphis International Airport.

0:02:02There are no international flights.

0:02:04They probably fly to, like, the Bahamas.

0:02:09Nope.

0:02:11Maybe... There used to be flights.

0:02:13Oh, okay. Mexico?

0:02:14But there aren't anymore. Well, now it's FedEx.

0:02:17Right. Oh, yeah. FedEx.

0:02:18FedEx fly international.

0:02:19And if you... And you may see this, actually, because you have a very early flight, I think.

0:02:24I do.

0:02:24If you get to Memphis Airport early, you see the FedEx planes coming in and out and you've never seen planes fly so close to each other.

0:02:31It is unbelievable.

0:02:33I was there once very early in the morning and you would see, like, one plane land and then another land and then another land.

0:02:40Because it's just, like, so timed.

0:02:42But anyway, so there's a lot of cargo here.

0:02:45Apparently, that's why there's a train here.

0:02:46But did you get to see the train?

0:02:47I don't know.

0:02:49We're staying actually at a hotel that is right in the old train station.

0:02:53So right on train tracks and everything like that.

0:02:55But I've not heard a train.

0:02:57Oh.

0:02:57And it's an active train station.

0:02:59Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's that active.

0:03:01I think it's... There's an Amtrak that runs from Chicago to New Orleans.

0:03:04It's as active as any American train line is active, which is not that much comparatively.

0:03:09In that it hasn't been mothballed.

0:03:11Yes.

0:03:12It's active, yeah.

0:03:12It still exists.

0:03:13It's functional.

0:03:14Do people get it? I don't know.

0:03:16Anyway, so I guess that's a no.

0:03:18If you would like to send in a Snow Talk question of your own, please go to upgradefeedback.com where you can do so.

0:03:25Yes.

0:03:25So we are here in Memphis because we are 36 hours or so after the podcast-a-thon for St. Jude.

0:03:34Yes, the length of three other podcast-a-thons away.

0:03:36Where Stephen and I have done this.

0:03:38This is the fifth year.

0:03:39This year we were very excited to invite our first in-studio guests.

0:03:44We had you and Kathy Campbell come join us.

0:03:46We hosted a 12-hour extravaganza of which will be posted to the Relay FM YouTube channel once we can work out exactly how to do that.

0:03:56It's a very long file.

0:03:57It's complicated.

0:03:59We have our best man working on the job.

0:04:01I actually think Stephen Macott's computer is loading it somewhere locally, of course.

0:04:06Right behind us.

0:04:07Yeah, he's got to put it on his hard drive.

0:04:08He's got to put it directly on the hard drive.

0:04:09Yeah, it's Relay FM content that goes on Stephen's hard drive.

0:04:11So this was part of our fundraising that we do throughout all of September.

0:04:15It's still September.

0:04:16We've got another week of September.

0:04:18Go to stjude.org/relay and you can still give to the kids of St. Jude.

0:04:22You can still sign up for a fundraiser of your own.

0:04:26You can still earn exclusive Relay FM merchandise for doing so.

0:04:30There are stickers available.

0:04:31There are war papers available.

0:04:33Screen savers available.

0:04:34But all of it is to help the kids of St. Jude.

0:04:38I want to thank everybody who has donated so far.

0:04:43It's really we've raised over $545,000 so far for the kids of St. Jude, which is surpassing everybody's expectations.

0:04:51We didn't know how this year was going to go.

0:04:53You know, we're times are tough economically for this community to have come together to raise such a huge amount of money is incredible,

0:05:01but we're not stopping.

0:05:02We still have another week and we don't stop because St. Jude won't stop until their life-saving work is done and that no trial dies from cancer.

0:05:11With your support will be one step closer to that day one cure closer one child closer during the podcast of Don.

0:05:18Stephen was joined by his wife Mary and they spoke through this area that called the family Commons,

0:05:22which we also got to see the outside of and some of that when we took a tour which you got to do for the first time.

0:05:30One of the most important parts of being a patient at St.

0:05:33Jude is that they give you the space to not just be a patient to just be a kid.

0:05:38The family Commons was opened this year.

0:05:40It's a 45,000 square foot space just for families.

0:05:43It's treatment and clinical staff free.

0:05:46There's no doctors.

0:05:46There's no nurses.

0:05:47It is just families.

0:05:49It is a place for them to rest and reconnect between appointments.

0:05:51This isn't even the housing.

0:05:53This is just a place like if you're going to be here all day, just come and hang out.

0:05:57There are music rooms like they have recording studios art rooms maker spaces with 3D printers.

0:06:04They have places for the families to get coffee to take calls.

0:06:07Maybe if you're like if you're a working parent and you need to call in they have booths where you can do that.

0:06:12This space came about from the feedback from parents of St.

0:06:16Jude from their patient like St.

0:06:18Jude patients and parents of patients who were looking for spaces where they could get downtime together.

0:06:24So St.

0:06:25Jude built it right something other than the hospital cafeteria,

0:06:28which is traditionally the place that everybody has to go to if you have a moment where you need to do something

0:06:32or you need to get out of the context of being in a hospital.

0:06:35I've lived through that too when they said this is an alternative to the cafeteria.

0:06:40I thought to myself, oh, I understand exactly what you're saying

0:06:43because I have spent way too much time in hospital cafeterias and they're fine.

0:06:48They feed you and stuff.

0:06:49Some of them are lovely.

0:06:51They're lovely people.

0:06:52It doesn't let you escape that you're in the hospital though.

0:06:54Exactly.

0:06:55Whereas this is a refuge.

0:06:56In fact, you said we got to see it from the outside.

0:06:58That's because we're not patient families.

0:07:00We want to let them in.

0:07:01Patient families only.

0:07:02Not tour groups, not doctors.

0:07:05Just the people who are doing, who are at St.

0:07:08Jude for other reasons to give them a place that is not medical.

0:07:11In the 10 years I've been coming here, I've been to St.

0:07:13Jude a lot and over time the tour groups have less and less access to the hospital,

0:07:19which I think is actually a really good thing.

0:07:21We used to be able to go into the hospital and they would show you some,

0:07:27you know, you wouldn't go to where they were treating people,

0:07:30but you'd be going inside and seeing some of the rooms and some of the waiting areas and stuff.

0:07:34They stopped doing all of that now because they're just continuing their focus on this is for the kids

0:07:39and it's for the families.

0:07:40Right.

0:07:41That's it.

0:07:41That's it.

0:07:42I think St. Jude is an incredible place,

0:07:44an incredible energy full of incredible people,

0:07:47but it needs support.

0:07:49And so while we are so incredibly grateful for the support of our community over the last five years,

0:07:54and this year, there's still always more money to be raised.

0:07:59Please go to stjude.org/relay.

0:08:01You can donate.

0:08:02You can find out more about fundraising.

0:08:04You can go and learn more there because St. Jude won't stop until no child dies from cancer.

0:08:09With your support, we'll be one step closer to that day.

0:08:12One cure closer, one child closer.

0:08:14This month and every month, let's cure childhood cancer together.

0:08:19We had a, well, I was going to say we had a fun time.

0:08:22We did have a fun time.

0:08:23We had many times.

0:08:24Yeah.

0:08:24There were many, 12 hours is a long time.

0:08:27We had a good time.

0:08:28We did.

0:08:29We did.

0:08:29It was hard.

0:08:31It was hard.

0:08:31But it was really good.

0:08:32Yeah.

0:08:32There was, I never thought, I had a moment where I thought, oh, God, I never have pictured being in a place where I am forced to spin a wheel and play games because we are an hour and a half from the end and all that.

0:08:48But it was like, it was so fun, but it was also bizarre, right?

0:08:51It's just bizarre because you're playing games and you're on the internet and people are commenting on you and you're, and it was, yeah, it was an unreal experience.

0:08:59But I was there with my pals and we had a great time.

0:09:02Easily the best one.

0:09:03Like just without a shadow of a doubt, it was the best podcast I've done.

0:09:08It was the most fun.

0:09:09We had the best content, like all of the planning worked out.

0:09:12It paid off.

0:09:13The work paid off.

0:09:14We did things we'd never done before.

0:09:17And just from a planning perspective, we did two days of rehearsals this time, which was better in the past, even like one day of rehearsal, which is not enough.

0:09:24We did like actual, actual rehearsals, which was good.

0:09:28Like we rehearsed things and tweaked things.

0:09:30Yeah, we figured out some stuff.

0:09:31On the day before, for sure.

0:09:33I think it came together to make just a fantastic show.

0:09:36Like I, you know, you're never sure, like I was like, oh, 12 hours that are going to be lolz.

0:09:41And like, I think that 12 hours is watchable start to finish and you will have a good time the whole way through.

0:09:46So once it's on our YouTube channel, I recommend if you haven't seen it, like just go and watch it.

0:09:51Like it's a really good time.

0:09:52Like you're going to enjoy yourself.

0:09:54Like we played lots of great games and there were moments of just like, we're all losing it.

0:09:59Yeah, there are, I was going to say there are two or three moments and I knew they would happen, but you never know when.

0:10:04Two or three moments when we just kind of all completely lost it and those are magical moments too.

0:10:08There's a moment in there where we're playing the game where we have to read each other's lips.

0:10:13And so we're over enunciating and you, you said some stuff that was just...

0:10:18Kathy said some stuff.

0:10:20Yeah, we all, we all said some stuff.

0:10:22Yeah, it was bizarre.

0:10:23It was hilarious.

0:10:24There's just some great moments.

0:10:25This is always like a good time to hang out in the Discord because there's now lots of Discord memes, which is good.

0:10:31Zach Knox in the chat room says Ratatouille.

0:10:34You won't know it until you see it.

0:10:35Ratatouille, everybody knows.

0:10:37Yep.

0:10:38Yeah, it was like, I think this is coming across now.

0:10:41I feel like I realized this as I started.

0:10:43My energy is low today.

0:10:45Like it was, you know.

0:10:48We're recovering still.

0:10:49Yeah.

0:10:50And I don't know why, but like I always struggle with these things.

0:10:54Like it hits me really, really hard.

0:10:56Like I had a couple of moments, you know, like I have back problems and they're better now than they've ever been.

0:11:04But like there are a couple of points and I was just like, oh God, like I couldn't move.

0:11:09At one point it was really rough.

0:11:10There were a couple of moments where you excused yourself and...

0:11:12Yeah.

0:11:13Well, most of those, it was interesting.

0:11:15I had to keep leaving to use the bathroom.

0:11:17Mm-hmm.

0:11:18And nobody else did that.

0:11:19And I find that very strange.

0:11:20Like I would sometimes it would be like, I don't know, halfway through a thing, like I need to leave the set now.

0:11:27Yeah.

0:11:27Oh yeah.

0:11:28I noticed that I made a point of going to the bathroom literally every time I exited the studio.

0:11:33Me too.

0:11:34I was drinking an incredible amount of coffee.

0:11:36Okay.

0:11:37That must be it.

0:11:37Like I had this, that big blue like Yeti kind of thing.

0:11:42That was constantly being refilled.

0:11:45Oh right.

0:11:45They, at one point they brought in a Starbucks order from you and it was two Venti iced coffee.

0:11:50Which was, I had three Venti iced latkes.

0:11:53So I didn't need much.

0:11:55I made a joke about 12 Red Bulls, one every hour.

0:11:58I think that was a joke.

0:11:59Something I said on Connected a couple of weeks ago.

0:12:01But no, I just, I was just going the whole time.

0:12:03And it kept me going.

0:12:05Sure.

0:12:05But yeah, I just had like a couple of moments.

0:12:07So I didn't hurt myself, which was good.

0:12:09I was worried that that could happen because that happens.

0:12:12But I was just like feeling a breakdown after, it was like hour six and then hour like 12.

0:12:19Right.

0:12:20So just I'm having profane and I was good to go.

0:12:22But yeah, there was a moment where I was like, I need to go sit down for a little bit.

0:12:25So we got a little hangover going on from all of that.

0:12:28Yes, felt very hungover yesterday.

0:12:30We went to a baseball game, which was good fun.

0:12:32We did.

0:12:32And now we're back.

0:12:34We're back.

0:12:35This is, it's a Sunday.

0:12:36We're recording on Sunday, by the way.

0:12:37This won't come out on Sunday, but we're recording on Sunday.

0:12:39Just so you know.

0:12:40So if anything happens in the next 24 hours, don't blame us.

0:12:42Don't blame us, no.

0:12:44Stjoo.org/relay

0:12:46I have some of your favorite follow up.

0:12:50Follow up.

0:12:50Which is more GM follow up.

0:12:52Oh boy.

0:12:53I know you love.

0:12:53How will General Motors Corporation make me angry today?

0:12:56Every time I see a story about GM, I think about you.

0:12:58Thank you.

0:12:59So GM have hired more ex-members of Apple's services team for its in-car entertainment division.

0:13:04Oh good.

0:13:05This comes from Zach Hall at 9to5Mac.

0:13:07Friend of the show.

0:13:08David Richardson, GM's new vice president of software and services.

0:13:11Prior to being hired by GM, Richardson worked at Apple for nearly 12 years.

0:13:16His last role at Apple was director of engineering for Apple's cloud infrastructure.

0:13:20And also, Baris Satinok, who previously worked at Apple for nine years until 2021.

0:13:26During his time at Apple, Satinok worked as a senior director over product management and marketing for iCloud, Apple Pay and other digital services.

0:13:36They join Mike Abbott, who left Apple for GM a few months ago to head up the whole project.

0:13:41So he's clearly bringing his lieutenants it would seem.

0:13:44Yeah.

0:13:45This is fascinating, right?

0:13:47Because as weird as it is to think of Apple as a hardware, software and services company,

0:13:52so the argument here is, well, you know, it's not unreasonable.

0:13:58GM is a company that also sells products like Apple does and they want to get into services.

0:14:04On a pure business standpoint,

0:14:05Makes sense.

0:14:06I get it.

0:14:07Yep.

0:14:08The problem I have, and look, maybe I'm sure these people aren't dumb.

0:14:12I'm sure they've got a plan.

0:14:14My problem with it is,

0:14:17And stock.

0:14:18If you go, if I go back to the CarPlay decision,

0:14:22Mm-hmm.

0:14:23It's partially a, this fantasy that GM will be at the center of your life.

0:14:32And it is a fantasy because the difference between your General Motors automobile and your iPhone

0:14:41is that your iPhone is at the center of your life and with you all the time.

0:14:46And your General Motors automobile with very specific exceptions,

0:14:50Yep.

0:14:51If you're a Lyft driver, I guess, or you, you know, whatever, like it's not at the center of your life.

0:14:55You leave it and do other things.

0:14:58And that's the problem I have with this is like I don't dispute that there aren't things that GM could offer as services

0:15:05Sure.

0:15:06That could be valuable, but I'm a little bit baffled about how you make the leap unless it's,

0:15:11I mean, I could start to think about like partnerships or things like that,

0:15:14but like really the fact is we don't live in a world where your car is at the center of your life.

0:15:20We live at the world where the smartphone is at the center of your life.

0:15:23And it feels to me like they're trying to say we want to be like Apple and like you can't, you just don't,

0:15:31I don't want to say don't even try, but what I want to say is know where you fit in people's lives.

0:15:36And by spurning carplay, I feel like they don't know because that is the, that is the like the root of all of this is no,

0:15:46no, your car is more important than your phone.

0:15:48Yeah.

0:15:49I'm sorry. It's not, it's never more important than your phone.

0:15:53This is, this is always saying I talk about this a lot from a different,

0:15:56You made me mad again.

0:15:57Oh no, no, no, I'm sorry.

0:15:59General Motors.

0:16:00I'm sorry.

0:16:01This is like a thing that I think about a lot when it comes to like the app store where there's like a,

0:16:08not necessarily like a delusion of grandeur, but just like an idea of grandeur, right?

0:16:14Where every big company believes that they are the most important.

0:16:19Exactly.

0:16:20And like sometimes I cited that idea of like who are Apple to tell Facebook what to do, right?

0:16:27Like why can't, why does one get to tell the other what to do?

0:16:31Why can't they both tell each other what to do? Why can't they both just do whatever they want to do?

0:16:34Right.

0:16:35And this is GM saying, no one tells us what to do in our car.

0:16:40And like, one understands I understand that.

0:16:44Totally.

0:16:45But I don't, and I understand that when, and I agree with that when it also can benefit the customer.

0:16:50But as of right now, it seems like it can't.

0:16:53Maybe they make the best in car entertainment system ever known to man.

0:16:59Maybe.

0:17:00And then we can all say, well, they were right to do it.

0:17:03But it just doesn't seem like that could be possible because of what you're explaining of like in car entertainment now connects to our phones.

0:17:13But like, I know it annoys, like I know that Tesla owners and Rivian owners are frustrated about the fact that it doesn't use CarPlay.

0:17:21But it's not like because it's bad, they would just like it because it would be easier.

0:17:26But everything I've seen is like, oh, people like, like what they make, right?

0:17:30Yeah, the challenge is integration with services, which is why I have so much pause when I see this because there are a couple of ways that this goes.

0:17:38One way is they say, well, we work with podcasts, but only with this podcast partner or these, only with Spotify.

0:17:49So listen to Spotify.

0:17:50And if you don't use Spotify for podcasts or music is the other example here.

0:17:54Music is happening all the time, right?

0:17:56Then your different cars have different partnerships, different services.

0:17:59And Apple has been more aggressive with that.

0:18:01Like Tesla now does both Spotify and Apple Music when it didn't use to.

0:18:05But so that's part of the danger is like there's an app you care about.

0:18:09There's something that you really care about.

0:18:11And your car is like, nope.

0:18:13Use and it's and it's your car saying for you to use me, you need to change how you live your life everywhere because you need to change the services that are on your phone.

0:18:24Do the manual Bluetooth connection drain your phone battery.

0:18:29Which is not as good.

0:18:31We've moved past that now.

0:18:33Right. So that's part of it that concerns me.

0:18:36And the other way that this could go that concerns me a little bit is do they have a fantasy that like, well,

0:18:41but what we're going to do is we're going to start our own music service, you see.

0:18:44And then what you'll do is you just won't subscribe to Spotify or Apple Music anymore.

0:18:48You'll take your GM Music with you when you leave your car, which as we know is the center of your life.

0:18:53And use the GM Music app on your phone to listen to music.

0:18:58I'm grooving with GM now, everybody.

0:19:01Grooving music.

0:19:02Yeah. Yeah. Grooving music. GM.

0:19:04GM. And you could get like good media, which would be a television app.

0:19:09Yeah.

0:19:10You just keep doing that.

0:19:11The thing that surprises me about this, I think, is like all these people are leaving Apple.

0:19:17So there is a vision, right?

0:19:19Somebody has a vision because all these people are leaving Apple to go to GM.

0:19:25And it's not like I'm saying Apple is the best company ever.

0:19:28But like if this is the work that you do, if you and if you care about this work, you're doing really big, important, interesting work at Apple.

0:19:38Maybe they want a smaller team. Maybe they want you know, I don't know.

0:19:41But it's just very intriguing to me that not just one person left, now this one person is able to, I'm assuming, entice other people that they have worked with to come over to GM.

0:19:52I mean maybe they want to build something new.

0:19:54Yeah.

0:19:55Maybe it's interesting.

0:19:56Maybe they're getting paid more. Maybe they're working in a place with a lower cost of living.

0:20:00Maybe they just want to build something new and that this is an exciting idea to reformulate what the future of the car is.

0:20:06I'm assuming these people are leaving California and going to Michigan to do this, right?

0:20:11I assume so. I mean they might have a California office.

0:20:15Which again, that's the thing. If GM had set up a place in California to do this, I'd be like hmm.

0:20:21Because that would just be an interesting choice of like they're serious, you know, but who knows.

0:20:26We're going to keep following this as it goes on.

0:20:29Your favorite GM entertainment system.

0:20:31Yeah. We have to come up with whatever we're going to be.

0:20:34Well I guess this is upshift?

0:20:36Yeah, I guess this is upshift. Welcome. We just backed into it, huh?

0:20:40I've just changed.

0:20:42Upshift.

0:20:43If you saw in your podcast player that this was always upshift.

0:20:47We went back in time.

0:20:49We retroactively changed it to the upshift chapter.

0:20:52So again, I would love, and this will probably happen at some point,

0:20:56I really would love to know what GM legitimately thinks about the future of services on their cars.

0:21:01Because the other thing I want to say here is that it's not all about carplay.

0:21:05I feel pretty strongly that if this is really a great strategy, they should welcome carplay.

0:21:11They should just allow carplay.

0:21:13Because what they will say is you won't need it. You won't want it. Our stuff is going to be better.

0:21:18But what it feels like they're doing is trapping you.

0:21:20Yeah.

0:21:21And I don't like that. And I don't know if it would like this at the bank.

0:21:26But I have been in and around enough big corporations to know that sometimes big corporations behave as if the thing that they're doing is rational.

0:21:40Because culturally, or because of the leader in charge, even if individual employees know it's not, this is what the company is going to do.

0:21:48Yeah.

0:21:49And I just got a big whiff of that from GM here.

0:21:51Is that this is a big swing that they've said they're going to do and all of us are sort of down here going, "Wait a second. Do you really think?"

0:21:59And I think you get that tunnel vision sometimes too when you're literally driving a GM car through a tunnel.

0:22:04Look, if you are...

0:22:05That it's all about you. And it's not all about you.

0:22:07If you are a car manufacturer in 2023, you are looking down the barrel of all cars are the same. Right?

0:22:17You've got electric, changes the way a car feels.

0:22:19Right.

0:22:20And it makes cars feel much more alike.

0:22:23Then you've got in-car entertainment systems. They're all by Apple or Google. Removes the personality of the car.

0:22:30You can't differentiate your car.

0:22:32And I know there are so many more things, but these are two things that historically were different.

0:22:39It's interesting to me that Ford has gone so far into car play because Ford, I feel like were the first in trying to really... Like with that Ford Sync thing, really trying to differentiate themselves.

0:22:52Maybe they learned their lesson.

0:22:53I think they did because I think they started so early that I think they realized people don't like that kind of stuff.

0:22:58But that's what I feel like. I could imagine some long-time car executives being like, "No. We must plant our flags and say why we are different."

0:23:08And so we cannot lose the in-car because they think that that's not as important where they know there's nothing they can do about electric.

0:23:17Right. I get the strategy. I just think that it comes from a place that's delusional because they've already lost it.

0:23:23They're not the center of people's world.

0:23:25You have to find new ways to differentiate.

0:23:28Right. Best product is the one that does the best at integrating with the rest of your life digitally and has the best in-car experience.

0:23:35And where it's the things that should matter. It's the comfort of the car, the way that it looks.

0:23:40These are the things that should matter. What you get for your money.

0:23:44And this is where companies like Hyundai are having a great time right now.

0:23:50And Kia, because they're making good-looking electric cars that are decent priced with a lot of stuff inside.

0:23:57And it's shooting them up because they're realizing, "Well, that's how we'll differentiate."

0:24:01I don't know. This is no car podcast. What do we know?

0:24:04It's a hard thing. I'm sure Sam Abouel submitted it. We'll write in.

0:24:07Well, just like a bunch of listeners. Stephen, Casey, they're all just like, "What are they doing over here?"

0:24:11Yeah. I think that is the conundrum.

0:24:14And it's the idea that you now have a mobile device that's the center of everybody's lives.

0:24:20And it's not the car. It is the phone.

0:24:23And that any service that they could try to monetize that isn't based on very specific in-car data is something that the phone's going to do better.

0:24:33So how do you differentiate? And the two ways are build a wall or differentiate on the places where you can and leave the rest of it alone.

0:24:42I think with electric cars, as an owner of electric cars, I think that you can control some things about your electric car driving experience and your charging and your battery state and all of that.

0:24:56I think that would be where I'd be the most afraid is I would be afraid of letting Apple and Google control that whole part of the interface too, right?

0:25:06And say, "Where's my next charger? Am I going to start preparing my car for the charging?"

0:25:13And all of those sort of things. The real-time driving is a place where they can differentiate.

0:25:17There are a lot of other places they can differentiate.

0:25:19I think the world is full of businesses who tried to fight against the inevitable shift toward their thing not being as exclusive as it was.

0:25:31And I don't think any of them won.

0:25:33No. I'm sure we'll be coming back to this now in future episodes for a little bit.

0:25:39For sure.

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0:28:09So you wouldn't know it considering we spoke about GM for 20 minutes, but it's new iPhone time.

0:28:15It is.

0:28:16So we've got iPhones. You've got iPhones. I have an iPhone. What do you have?

0:28:23All of them.

0:28:24Okay, so you have one of everything, right?

0:28:26I have one of everything for my review.

0:28:28What are you using most though?

0:28:30Well, I mean, I literally got it here in Memphis.

0:28:33On Friday? Thursday, Friday?

0:28:35On Thursday night. So I migrated my 14 Pro to the 15 Pro just to have that as my in-pocket experience for the weekend, basically.

0:28:49And then I have one in a box that didn't get delivered to my house because I wasn't there that I have to go back to.

0:28:57I have the iPhone 15 Pro Max, which I bought here.

0:29:00And I mostly migrated. So I did the device-to-device transfer.

0:29:06It went way better for me this time than last time.

0:29:09I have a to-do list of things that I need to check.

0:29:11It's most like anything test flight related. It gets all messed up, right?

0:29:14And I have to sign it to some stuff.

0:29:15But by and large, things have gone well. They're working well.

0:29:19The only thing that I've not been able to do yet, which I say is actually quite an important thing.

0:29:24I've not been able to move my eSIM over.

0:29:26And I think the reason is because it can't connect to my carrier network.

0:29:31Right? Because I'm here. My carrier is in the United Kingdom.

0:29:36And so when it's doing the activating part, like it's like connecting to your network, I'm like, "Oh, you're not going to be able to do that."

0:29:43Because I'm roaming.

0:29:44So it can't. That's what I'm expecting is the case.

0:29:47But I'll take care of it when I get home.

0:29:49I did it last year. And I'll do it again this year.

0:29:52Because we're still in the UK. It's not the all eSIM thing.

0:29:55So you can use an eSIM.

0:29:57You can also use a regular SIM.

0:29:59Where in America, they're all eSIM. Right?

0:30:02And so last year, I got my physical SIM transferred to an eSIM.

0:30:06But we just need to go eSIM to eSIM.

0:30:08And maybe I'll just need to do that when I get home.

0:30:10So right now, I've got two phones. I'm trying to use the new phone.

0:30:14And so I'm carrying around in my bag my old phone, which I'm tethering to, when I'm out of the house.

0:30:21Sure. Of course.

0:30:22And that's working great. But it's new phone time. So got to talk about new phones.

0:30:26So obviously I'm on 15 Pro Max natural titanium.

0:30:29Looks good.

0:30:30It looks real good. Like I miss gold.

0:30:34I know.

0:30:35But I also got my Apple Watch Ultra, which I'll talk about later on in the show.

0:30:38Pretty good match.

0:30:39They look pretty good together. And so that's the constellation for me.

0:30:43And I feel like I saw yours. That you have the blue, right?

0:30:47I have the Pro Max in blue.

0:30:49Pro Max in blue.

0:30:51And I can see a bit more of the brushed look on the natural than on the blue.

0:30:59I do still wish there was a little bit more of that visibly in there.

0:31:03Texture?

0:31:04Yeah. I don't need to feel it, but I would like to see a bit more of it.

0:31:08But it's still there and I think it's a good match.

0:31:11And I actually do quite like the finish on the back.

0:31:14I think the grey is different and I like that.

0:31:17Yeah. I'm never going to get super enthusiastic about the grey.

0:31:20But I do think that the natural is a much nicer look than I really thought it would be.

0:31:25Seeing it on multiple phones since I've been here, I think it's a really nice look.

0:31:30For the record, the blue titanium is, I would say, not as close a match to the midnight MacBook Air as I thought it was.

0:31:37It's just not quite right.

0:31:40It's a little lighter, actually.

0:31:43Maybe a little bluer.

0:31:45It's actually a color closer to what I wish the midnight MacBook Air was, but it's not.

0:31:50And then I think the black is just going to be straight up.

0:31:56It's that same color but without the blue highlight.

0:31:59It's fine.

0:32:01And I've always leaned toward the darker phone anyway.

0:32:05I kind of like the dark phone.

0:32:07But I will say that the natural titanium frame and the grey back and the glass color, it's really, really nice.

0:32:16It's an interesting look.

0:32:18We've got the blue Pro.

0:32:21She just doesn't want a black, grey or white phone.

0:32:24So she always, whatever the color is, she'll just go for that.

0:32:28So she has a blue, and they're actually not too, she has a blue 13.

0:32:35And they're not massively different to each other.

0:32:38So for her it's great.

0:32:39She just puts a case on it anyway.

0:32:41And I know that for a lot of people this is a moot point, but I don't put a case on my phone.

0:32:45I don't put a case on my phone either.

0:32:46So I want it to have a look.

0:32:48So it feels really great in the hand.

0:32:49It is so much lighter.

0:32:51We got to see, you guys took your phones out of the boxes.

0:32:54And I got to hand you a Pro Max even before that, and you did the same reaction I did, which is say, oh.

0:33:00It's light.

0:33:01It's light.

0:33:02It's light.

0:33:03I don't even know what I was expecting exactly, but it is a big difference.

0:33:10The Pro Max especially.

0:33:12You pick it up, and I've been using both of them as I've been doing the transfers.

0:33:16And just handling one after another, it is a significant difference.

0:33:21I do feel like for people on the fence, this could be the crossover year for a lot of people.

0:33:27Because I think if you go to an Apple store and pick one up, you'll be really surprised.

0:33:31And of course you're still dealing with the physical size, but it's easier to handle.

0:33:37Although even the physical size is a little bit smaller than it was.

0:33:39I could notice that.

0:33:40It's noticeable.

0:33:41I got an admission to make for you.

0:33:43I want to hear it.

0:33:44Which is, you know me, mini phone club.

0:33:47And I've been using a 14 Pro.

0:33:50I picked up the 15 Pro Max and I thought, "You know, this isn't that bad."

0:33:54It's not that bad.

0:33:55You know what, Jason?

0:33:56It's actually not bad.

0:33:57It's good.

0:33:58Well.

0:33:59It doesn't need to be bad at all.

0:34:00It can just be good.

0:34:01And I think it's very good.

0:34:03And I have been surprised actually by the feeling of the smoother edges.

0:34:12It does feel different.

0:34:14And I would say without looking too different.

0:34:16Because I like the look.

0:34:17I like the boxy look.

0:34:19And I feel like they've done a good job there of still kind of retaining the design.

0:34:25It does sort of feel like that.

0:34:26I know this isn't technically what happened.

0:34:28But it feels like sanding down the edges of a piece of wood.

0:34:32Everything is just a little bit smoother around the edges than it was before.

0:34:37One of the big reasons that people are interested about the Pro Max especially is the camera.

0:34:45What do you think of the camera system in this phone?

0:34:48I took some pictures.

0:34:50I posted some on Mastodon.

0:34:52I posted my first actually on Mastodon out the hotel window down to the street.

0:34:58And like first off I should say the camera system on these phones is very impressive.

0:35:04The 3X on the Pro is very impressive.

0:35:08The image stabilization is very impressive.

0:35:11The 5X though like it's a lot.

0:35:16And there is a gap between 2X and 5X where you're sort of digitally zooming into the 2X instead.

0:35:22But if you want to go for distance like a thing I do from time to time is try to zoom in on something and take a picture.

0:35:31And then zoom in on that in the Photos app so I can read like what that thing is that's far away.

0:35:36I did this at the baseball game last night where I got up to the counter and they were serving the person in front of me.

0:35:42And there was a refrigerator in the back of the bar that had these cans partially turned away of beer.

0:35:48And I was like what beers do they have?

0:35:50And I zoomed in and took a picture and zoomed in and literally was able to read the cans to figure out what beer I wanted.

0:35:58I got the peanut and banana porter that's made in honor of Elvis.

0:36:02And you got me a Shinerbok.

0:36:03And I did get you a Shinerbok.

0:36:04Well I got a Shinerbok for that group and you took it.

0:36:06So it was for you. Retroactively.

0:36:08So that part of the 5X is also kind of mind blowing because I was so far away from some stuff and you could like read the stuff in the window.

0:36:17Like really just very impressive if you're trying to do telephoto photography.

0:36:25I haven't had as much experience with it yet with the system of my own.

0:36:32I've just been kind of playing around with it.

0:36:34The thing that I am most shocked by is the image clarity at the 5X.

0:36:42It to me looks as good as the 1X.

0:36:47Like the sharpness of the image, the colour, the overall clarity of the image is great.

0:36:53I didn't necessarily think it wouldn't be but I didn't expect it to be if I think about like the introduction of the other lens types that Apple's number 4.

0:37:01The ultra wide was never as good as the main.

0:37:03The telephoto was never as good as the main.

0:37:05And they levelled up over time to make a more stable and steady look across all of the lenses.

0:37:15And I think for first out of the gate with the tetra prism telephoto lens.

0:37:20I think that they appear to me at least to have done a very good job with admittedly like 6 photos that I've taken.

0:37:29Like this is a much longer period of time thing and there's other stuff that I'm intrigued to see.

0:37:36What I'm hoping for is something I don't think will happen which will be that the macro lens turns on less but I just think that the gate is like the bar door is open on that one.

0:37:45The horse is bolted. Like if I want the 48 megapixel lens the focal distance is not going to be the same.

0:37:52I'm intrigued to play around with the focal length change stuff a bit more.

0:37:56Like I've pressed the button and watched it change from like 24 to 28 to 35.

0:38:02But I don't really fully understand yet what I will get out of that but I want to learn.

0:38:08I think the way and I asked Apple about this.

0:38:12I think the way it works is essentially between 1x and 2x.

0:38:18Those stops are to give you the equivalent focal length.

0:38:24Yeah.

0:38:25But what they've really built in is not because what I asked them is, is there anything special about those stops?

0:38:32And my impression is there isn't.

0:38:36That Apple's, what do they call it, photonic engine, the pipeline, the image pipeline between 1x and 2x.

0:38:45Which is so between taking all 48 megapixels as the source or taking, zooming into the middle 24 megapixels of the source.

0:38:55Or 12 megapixels of the source.

0:38:59Anyway, on that 48 megapixel sensor they are at every stop along the way processing with what they said.

0:39:08Which is they're grabbing the 48 and they're grabbing the binned and they're doing a bunch of processing

0:39:12and they're putting it together and they're outputting a 24 megapixel image.

0:39:16So essentially those things are affordances for people who are comfortable with those sort of like stops

0:39:23because it feels better to say 35 millimeter than it is to say 1.5 or whatever.

0:39:29But that they're processing it everywhere along the way between 1x and 2x through that image pipeline.

0:39:35And that's one of the ways that they can get a much better quality image out at 24 megapixels.

0:39:40I'm just happy to get the 24 megapixels. I was just sitting and taking some photos of you

0:39:44because I was like pressing the little buttons to see what happens at 1x.

0:39:47The images look really good, color is good. We've got good lighting in here but just overall the detail is very good.

0:39:54It's like this is the thing that I am excited to spend more time doing.

0:39:57Just to see how good is this 24 megapixel stuff.

0:40:01But I like that these focal length things exist.

0:40:05If anything just to maybe help me frame an image a little bit differently, easily.

0:40:11So I'm going to play around with it. I'm going to see what it does.

0:40:15One of these images that I just took of you, it did the automatic like hey could this be a portrait thing which is fun.

0:40:22So that just popped up there.

0:40:24Because I am a person and/or dog or cat.

0:40:26Yeah, so like it's just next to where you have the options for the live photo.

0:40:30They just sit right there.

0:40:32So I have in the same menu live options and portrait options.

0:40:36I think that's a really good way of doing it.

0:40:38That's nice. If you edit you can actually change the focal distance and everything.

0:40:42Yeah, which I would do because I always like to bump it down a little bit.

0:40:46Although this is a very good portrait image of you.

0:40:49I will say.

0:40:51So there we go.

0:40:52Yeah, while doing a podcast.

0:40:54So I mean this is the thing right?

0:40:57Like this 5x lens, it's going to tell the story of the Pro Max I think.

0:41:02The way that people react to it in the short and medium term is going to just further push which is the most popular of these devices.

0:41:12And you know we spoke about it. It seems like so far the Pro Max is selling really well.

0:41:17And I expect that that's pretty similar at the beginning.

0:41:21Because it's like the biggest most fun which I assume sells its best earlier.

0:41:28Maybe so.

0:41:29And then you know maybe the mix gets a little different over time.

0:41:33But I'm expecting that if the story continues to be told of like.

0:41:38Hey this is a really cool camera system.

0:41:41That maybe it shifts the Pro Max to become even more popular this time.

0:41:46And I think that would then more likely inform in the next couple of years.

0:41:52iPhone, iPhone Pro, iPhone Pro Max, iPhone Ultra.

0:41:56Just if the big one continues to get a bigger slice of the pie.

0:42:01What more can you do to push up the price?

0:42:04Because I do not expect personally that the plus, the 15 plus is going to really make much ground this year.

0:42:13And I think that's going to be like made even worse by the fact that the other big phone is really cool and different.

0:42:21I think this is an even harder challenge for the 15 plus.

0:42:26I know they're in totally different price brackets.

0:42:28But I can imagine if somebody just wants a bigger phone.

0:42:31Maybe they'd be more likely to opt for the more expensive one this time than they would have before.

0:42:35And like you have the plus.

0:42:37You actually have the plus in pink.

0:42:39Which I think is a good color.

0:42:41You have the yellow in the 15 which is nothing.

0:42:44It is no color.

0:42:45It is white.

0:42:47But the pink, I actually think they did a good job on the pink.

0:42:49I like the pink.

0:42:50But it just strikes me and it's the same as when I went to the store and I saw the plus there.

0:42:55It's just like that is a weird ugly duckling phone to me in a way.

0:43:01Well I do wonder if Apple is looking at its sales figures and there are certain markets where that phone does well.

0:43:10I mean maybe but they tried the mini twice and then took it away.

0:43:14I think that whenever they make these decisions I don't think that they reverse them after a year.

0:43:20No, the question is what are the sales figures from last year.

0:43:24You're right. The existence of that phone this year I think means nothing.

0:43:27Because the mini we knew when the 14 mini came out, 13 mini came out.

0:43:32That it was gone already.

0:43:34That was going to be the end because of the sales figures for the 12 mini.

0:43:37So 14 plus has sort of told the tale about the fate of the plus phone.

0:43:42But I wonder if it exists because you're right it does seem weird.

0:43:46But I do wonder if there are markets that are more inclined for a big phone and are more price sensitive where the plus makes sense.

0:43:57It's also possible that it doesn't make sense.

0:43:59The thing that I agree with you with the thing on that is that is the exact same story we're saying about the mini.

0:44:04There are markets that are more price sensitive and that was the cheapest one.

0:44:08And people want a smaller phone.

0:44:11This is a story we hear all the time but it turns out obviously not because Apple got rid of it.

0:44:17There are of course people that care about both of those things but obviously not in the numbers that made it a sensible phone to continue.

0:44:26So I am now on full on the train of ultra and I already can tell you one of the features I want from the ultra.

0:44:31I want a fourth lens.

0:44:33Okay.

0:44:34So like my hope would be that with the next time they can update this tetra prism maybe they can get it to six, seven, eight times and then put like a three time telephone in there.

0:44:47While we're inventing a product for Apple that they probably already invented two years ago.

0:44:53I hope so.

0:44:54New camera bump that is a terrace that goes across the phone.

0:44:59Like the Pixel?

0:45:00Yes.

0:45:01Yeah.

0:45:02Which not only would fit potentially your fourth lens but spreads the lenses out so that you can place two good lenses on either side so that you can get better stereo separation for stereo capture.

0:45:16So it makes even better like next generation vision pro images and photos right?

0:45:21Maybe.

0:45:22That would be a bold design change right? To go to do something like that.

0:45:28But if you're going to have an Apple or an iPhone ultra.

0:45:30Do it.

0:45:31Maybe that's where you make those kind of bold changes.

0:45:34Or down the side or whatever.

0:45:36But like if you had a more inline that gives you the stereo separation too.

0:45:42I wouldn't mind that whole top part just go the whole way across.

0:45:47You know? Put a bunch of lenses in on the top. Something like that as a new design.

0:45:51I mean then you're shooting vertically and they would have to address that but I don't know.

0:45:56I mean yes but it's better than these two next to each other right? The ones that we currently have which apparently can do this spatial video.

0:46:04So like if the two that are one on top of the other can do it. If there's one on one corner and one on the other corner it's surely going to be better.

0:46:10You would think.

0:46:11You would think.

0:46:12Do you have any more to say on the hardware, the camera or the design, the colors, that kind of stuff?

0:46:21Well so when we talked I had already tried them at the hands on. I don't know if I have a whole lot to say there.

0:46:27I continue to be kind of disappointed by the color. I thought your perspective on the pink was really good.

0:46:32It sounds like I don't know the green but Lauren's getting the green so we'll see.

0:46:37People who've gotten the blue or seen the blue say that it's essentially white.

0:46:40I think blue and yellow from the images I've seen are just like you could probably mistake them.

0:46:46It's odd. Very odd.

0:46:48Except for on the camera glass.

0:46:50It looks so good and it made me like oh do it to the whole thing.

0:46:55Whatever the makeup was to get the really saturated color in the camera bump, the whole phone should be that color.

0:47:05They were so close.

0:47:07Maybe they just need to double the thickness of the glass.

0:47:09Yeah that'll solve it.

0:47:11That'll solve it.

0:47:12So I appreciate that especially since as some people know it is a subtle pink and I can't see that.

0:47:19So that didn't help me any. So thank you for that. The pink is off the bad list.

0:47:24Well one of the things people say is that the colors don't matter because you put them in a case.

0:47:28I get it. And the camera bump is the part with the best color and that's the part you can see.

0:47:32You can see.

0:47:33I mean onto cases though. Let's talk about fine woven.

0:47:37I would say that the dawn has been blowing up over fine woven.

0:47:41Yeah.

0:47:42If you're on the dawn.

0:47:43The socials.

0:47:44Now this is really interesting to me to chart the way this has gone.

0:47:49Because the majority of hands on time that I heard from people at Apple Park was saying feels nice, seems interesting or didn't really have a massive opinion on it.

0:48:02And then as time has gone on more people are getting it and I think the more people are using it in their lives it's starting to tell a different story.

0:48:13And I was very dubious the whole time of what Apple were going to do and then what they showed off.

0:48:20Because we spoke about it like a lot of leather replacements can be bad for the environment in their own ways because they're rubbers or plastics which can be hard to make.

0:48:31And it felt like Apple was leaning into more the environmental part than the animal rights part of leather because they actually didn't mention that at all.

0:48:45Right because they could say well we're improving things.

0:48:48We decided we don't want to use animals in our products anymore and so we're going away from.

0:48:53And cows are very bad for the environment so we're going to go away from that and replace it with vegan leather.

0:48:58And then they know that they're going to get truth detected immediately and it's going to be like aha but that's plastic and you're ruining the environment.

0:49:03So they also just completely skipped over it. They were just like we're doing this because it's better for the environment.

0:49:07And maybe the way that they make the fine woven cases is just like manufacturally better for the environment or whatever.

0:49:14But when I first felt one, so Steven had one and I tried it out last week.

0:49:21To me it felt like paper and I've experienced papers like high-end luxury papers that feel like the fine woven texture.

0:49:31And I think just over the last week people are turning against it.

0:49:37It does not feel like a $60 case. That's the thing that bugs me.

0:49:45I agree with you. I was holding it because it's on a couple of my review phones.

0:49:50And moving my finger along the back of it and it's just got this, it's fuzzy and it's got this vuvuvuvu kind of texture on it as you go.

0:49:59And I see what they're going for. It's not my preferred choice.

0:50:06I would like to know what it's made of. Because I think they should have gone with fabric.

0:50:11Like an actual fabric. Which fine woven in the name you would assume is.

0:50:17But I think it's some kind of recycled material which is being turned into a thread and woven together.

0:50:26But Steven has one of those pig design cases. And they have a fabric that almost feels like their backpack fabric.

0:50:33And that just feels nicer. There's a little padding to it. It makes it soft to hold and it's nice.

0:50:38But the fine woven is like, no we're going to make an iPhone case like we currently make them but out of this different material.

0:50:46And the edge of it feels cheap to me. It feels like they press it in a certain way. Maybe apply heat or something.

0:50:54To make this kind of like, again it feels like a kind of rubbery plastic feel.

0:50:58But the edges then don't, there's not like a nice connection I feel like on the sides.

0:51:04Is it a bad case? I don't know. I think it is a bad replacement for the most expensive case.

0:51:12I recommend to everyone that wants an Apple case, I used silicone cases forever. I like the silicone case.

0:51:18I think it's good. The colors are good. Like the colors are actually good in the silicone cases.

0:51:23That would be my recommendation. But if you are a leather phone case company, you are rolling in it right now.

0:51:30Like the nomads and belroys of the world. They're just having a great time.

0:51:34So, couple of things here. One is, I recommend, I thought you were going to go down this route and you didn't.

0:51:40But I recommend that if you ordered a fine woven accessory and haven't gotten it yet.

0:51:50If there's any opportunity for you to try it, like touch it from like a friend's case or go to the Apple store.

0:51:57Consider doing that because I'm going to just throw out the alert. I think a lot of people are going to be dissatisfied.

0:52:03And it would certainly be easier. I don't know what their return policy is for iPhone cases.

0:52:07But like, certainly a lot easier if you just never even open the box.

0:52:11Because you may be disappointed. Again, everybody's going to have their opinions.

0:52:15I'm sure there are people out there like, "Oh no, I like it." Like, okay. Right?

0:52:19But I think we need to shine the bat signal here. This is not great. I don't like it either.

0:52:26I think it's going to have a teardown, which I'm currently scrolling through. That's more put in the chat.

0:52:30I mean, it's an awesome teardown. But it looks like what I expected. It is some kind of woven plastic.

0:52:37And they're doing a bunch of things. Like a friend in Federico had like stained his last night.

0:52:41And I fix it as staining it and stuff. Like, I agree. This is just not a good. This is not good.

0:52:48This is what brings me to, I think, my bigger point about where Apple is here.

0:52:53Like, look. Okay. Apple accessories are more expensive. Why are they more expensive? Because Apple wants a big price margin.

0:53:01There are a couple reasons for that. One is they're the only company that can make cases that have the Apple logo on it.

0:53:05And some people want to have an Apple logo on their case. Because they want to show off that it's an iPhone.

0:53:10And if you put it in a case that's not clear, you don't have an Apple logo. Okay. So they got that going for them.

0:53:15They are the original equipment manufacturer. So they know all the specs. Although truth be told, everybody already knows all the specs.

0:53:25And all the other case makers are on top of it somehow. Right? Okay. But Apple likes making money.

0:53:31And here's the big thing. When you buy an iPhone on the Apple Store online or in the Apple Store, you are immediately like,

0:53:40"Oh, would you like an Apple case? Apple case, Apple case, Apple case." And so in a scenario where you were offered like ten different cases,

0:53:47you might make a different decision. But you're not. You're offered the Apple cases.

0:53:50So you have to go out of your way to say, "No, no, no, Apple, no. I'm going to get my phone from you next Friday.

0:53:58But I'm going to shop around for cases. And where do I do that? I guess on Amazon or whatever."

0:54:03It's so much more convenient just to take what Apple gives you.

0:54:06Because you've got to assume as well, like you said, right? Any third-party case you're going to buy is not designed with all the knowledge in mind.

0:54:15I've seen a lot of cases for the pros that have a cutout for the action button. That's not what you want. You want a button in the case.

0:54:24Apple did that because they know. So when you're at that checkout screen, you're like, "Well, I could get the case from X company, but how well is it going to fit?"

0:54:34Right. So this is the power of that. And Apple makes these cases. So they make the silicone one, which you have recommended to people.

0:54:44I don't love the silicone one because every time I put it in or pull it out of my pocket, it sticks.

0:54:48I understand. I understand that.

0:54:49Right? I don't like it. It's one of the reasons I just go caseless. But I used to have a leather case.

0:54:54But here's the big one, which is Apple charges a lot for its cases, but they bear the stamp of Apple, not just the logo, but of quality.

0:55:09They are the first party. They know their phones backward and forward.

0:55:14And while you always know you're going to pay more for an Apple case than you are for a third-party case, you're getting something out of it.

0:55:23They are providing, I would say, what is the quintessential Apple thing, which is value for money.

0:55:29You spend a lot of money, but you're going to get something good.

0:55:33And what it feels like to me is that whoever, whatever group is in charge of iPhone accessories, it feels like they lost sight of that to me.

0:55:47It feels like this is a case designed to fit in a price point when they had been told, due to environmental reasons, you can't have leather anymore.

0:55:58Well, I say it's to fit in a price point and a carbon bracket, which I'm not saying is a bad thing. It is a good thing.

0:56:05But it is a new constraint of like, you got to make a case that costs this much to make so we can sell it for this much.

0:56:13But it's also got to be environmentally friendly in these ways.

0:56:18And I think that's the problem. I think the problem is, what else could they have done?

0:56:22They could have made a different material that doesn't fit the slot of the leather case, is different but good and at a different price point.

0:56:30But that's not what it feels like they did. What they were told was, make a replacement for the leather case at the leather case price point with our huge margins, but in the carbon envelope.

0:56:41You're limited with the materials, we don't want to pollute the planet, we don't want to increase carbon, you're limited with your materials. Go innovate.

0:56:48It has to protect and it has to be durable in the ways that it needs to be.

0:56:51And in that context, the people who came up with the fine woven case, this may have been the best they could do.

0:56:59I'm not saying they botched it. This might actually be the best within those constraints they could do.

0:57:06But it feels to me from the outside looking in, that what has happened is that Apple forgot about value for money and they only remembered money.

0:57:17And so they've created a case that costs what a high-end good, because the Apple leather case is good.

0:57:23There are other options and you may not like details about it, but the Apple leather cases were always good.

0:57:29And they seem to have made a product where they're like, "Well, the price is really what it's about." And it's like, for the customer, that's not it.

0:57:37So that's why I think that this is a colossal disaster in the making, is that they lost the plot about why they get to charge what they charge for cases.

0:57:47I was thinking, how much time do I want to dedicate in my podcasting life right now to talking about iPhone cases?

0:57:54Because I can understand the idea of, "Are we perpetuating case gate here? Is that what this is?"

0:58:04But in talking about the colors of the phones, I am brought to the realization that an iPhone case is part of the product.

0:58:14It is.

0:58:15For basically everyone, except weirdos like me.

0:58:18And me.

0:58:19Who don't.

0:58:20Right.

0:58:21The vast majority of people are putting their phone in a case, and this is one of the two that Apple say for all of the new phones.

0:58:29And so it is an important story for these reasons.

0:58:35And I also think, now please listen to me here, alright?

0:58:41Okay.

0:58:42I'm not making any judgment about this, but I think this is going to be an interesting harbinger, might be the word I'm looking for, for what carbon neutral product design could be like.

0:58:58That we may have, over the next 10 years, some odd spots that will get worked out.

0:59:05Sure.

0:59:06Because I have one of the new Apple Watch bands that's made from the recycled materials.

0:59:12It looks fantastic.

0:59:13It looks great.

0:59:14But it's stiffer.

0:59:15That's not a problem, but I noticed it was different.

0:59:18And it may loosen up over time, right?

0:59:20And it may.

0:59:21But it stuck out to me as like, "Oh, this is firmer than I'm used to."

0:59:25Right.

0:59:26So, a point about that, which is, I don't know if you remember back in the day, but a while ago, so now Apple and everybody else has jumped on the braided cable.

0:59:35Bandwagon.

0:59:36And they're really nice.

0:59:38But there was a moment where Apple was getting, I don't know if it was BPA, Apple was getting some very bad chemicals out of their plastics.

0:59:46And where you noticed it most was in their cables.

0:59:50Because they used to have these cables that were plastic cables, but they were soft and supple.

0:59:57They bent, they moved as you wanted, they were really nice.

1:00:01And what was the chemical that made them soft and supple and nice?

1:00:04A chemical that kills people when it gets into the environment, gives people terrible diseases, it's bad.

1:00:09And I'm like, "Okay, we gotta take that out."

1:00:10Well, guess what?

1:00:11Their cables got stiff and bad and they broke.

1:00:16They broke open.

1:00:17They were less reliable and less pleasant to use.

1:00:20And we've gotten sort of back to the point where cables are nice again.

1:00:25Boy, I hope that braided cables don't kill anything.

1:00:27Please.

1:00:31Braided cables, please be nice.

1:00:33Don't murder.

1:00:34Please don't cancel the braided cable.

1:00:36No.

1:00:37So that is a thing we went through, right?

1:00:40Where there was an environmental issue and the product got worse.

1:00:42And I think you're right to bring this up.

1:00:44But as Apple goes toward its 2030 pledge, I wonder if part of that's gonna be Apple getting up on stage and saying,

1:00:51they won't say it, but the net result will be, "Yeah, we know this isn't as good, but it's better for the world."

1:00:58There's just gonna be some rough spots.

1:00:59And I genuinely believe they have the people, skill, talent, resources, money and time to iron these things out

1:01:07and we end up in a better place.

1:01:09But that there might be a dip for a while until we get back on the trajectory of products feeling good.

1:01:18Because this is just a reality of being more sustainable in product design.

1:01:25There are different trade-offs and you have to work and find...

1:01:31Again, a big part of my life now is paper product manufacturing, right?

1:01:37As well as just paying attention to pens and paper for years.

1:01:41And as time has gone on...

1:01:46So there's a recycled paper that I'm really interested in right now for something that I hope to be able to bring to market at some point in the future.

1:01:53And the thing that is interesting to me about this paper is it's not full of flax of colour.

1:02:01Which is very normal in recycled paper because you're recycling paper and it's not all the same colour.

1:02:06And one of the ways that this was done was bleaching it.

1:02:09It's like, "No, that's bad."

1:02:11But there's a company that I'm working with and they have a process of making a very good paper very well

1:02:22with minimal environmental impact.

1:02:25But it's taken a really long time to work that out.

1:02:29And so that's what I expect to see more now.

1:02:33And Apple's got the time, money, care, resources.

1:02:37The value-add of an iPhone case must be huge.

1:02:43They can't afford to get a bad reputation.

1:02:47Because there are many companies that are very willing to take your business.

1:02:52Well, somebody in our chat, maybe it was Zach, said, "Think about Apple Watch bands."

1:03:01I've never bought a third-party Apple Watch band.

1:03:03I bought one and it disappointed me.

1:03:06I might now, but I'm worried about that.

1:03:09What if Apple were to come out and say, "Well, we've replaced all the fine watch bands that you love with new materials that are better for the world."

1:03:16"They're all fine woven bands." I'm scared now.

1:03:19I looked at them at the event and I actually thought that they fit better in the context,

1:03:22but they were clearly just meant to ape the old product line.

1:03:26So this is the danger for the Apple Watch bands or for cases that it's not Apple...

1:03:34If they're not perceived as being, "Yeah, it's expensive but they're good."

1:03:39"It's expensive but they're quality."

1:03:41If the perception is, "It's expensive and you shouldn't buy them because they're not very good."

1:03:45"They're just trying to take more money out of you."

1:03:48That's when the magic spell collapses and the reputation becomes, "Don't buy the Apple stuff."

1:03:54"Only buy the iPhone from Apple."

1:03:56There have always been people who shop and are like, "Oh, I can get a deal on a third-party thing."

1:04:01"It's a little weird but it's cheaper."

1:04:03Very specific needs like John Siracusa.

1:04:05Exactly, right.

1:04:07But the last thing Apple wants...

1:04:09Apple wants its sweet, sweet margins but it also doesn't want a bad reputation for its products.

1:04:13That's the danger.

1:04:15I want to come back to something you said earlier about it's funny that we're talking about cases a lot

1:04:19but so many people put their phones in cases.

1:04:22It reminds me of a conversation we had in one of my favorite episodes of Upgrade

1:04:25which was something that actually every year Apple does a better job with this.

1:04:30It used to be so painful to move from one iPhone to another.

1:04:34So painful.

1:04:36You might think, "Well, yeah, there are issues this year and there was an OS update issue that we didn't even mention."

1:04:40"It was annoying and they kind of messed that up and you had to update both your phones and all of that."

1:04:45But it's so much better than it was where it's like hold the phones together and they pair and it knows what your Apple ID is.

1:04:51You take the camera and look at the other camera and it brings things over and it offers you migration.

1:04:55It offers to back up your iCloud.

1:04:57All that stuff didn't used to be there before.

1:04:59The point of that episode way back when was part...

1:05:03The day you buy your phone should be the happiest day of the year in some ways.

1:05:07It should be like, "Yay, it's new iPhone day."

1:05:09And instead it's like, "Oh, it's such a pain to transfer it all over."

1:05:14So the cases are part of the iPhone upgrade program.

1:05:25Not the program, but you know what I mean.

1:05:27They are part of the upgrade process, the system, the experience, if you will.

1:05:33You get a lousy case, it hurts the iPhone.

1:05:37Because a lot of people aren't going to be finicky and they're going to be like, "Oh, I'm going to send this back and I don't like this."

1:05:43They're going to put it on and it's going to get stained and they're not going to like the feel.

1:05:47And they're going to remember they spent $60 or whatever on it.

1:05:50They're going to be like, "Oh, this Apple case."

1:05:52And it's going to weigh down the whole product.

1:05:54Episode 56 of upgrade.

1:05:57The upgrade program.

1:05:58The migration experience.

1:05:59Oh yeah, the migration experience, yeah.

1:06:01Also good.

1:06:02Yeah, this is well on that as well. Stephen just posted this, we saw him taking the pictures while he was helping us set up.

1:06:08It's true.

1:06:09On his case, on his fine woven case, the USB-C cutout is not centered.

1:06:16They put pictures of it on the phone.

1:06:18It's not just the port on the phone, it's literally the cutout is off.

1:06:21The cutout is off center.

1:06:22The quality of the cutout.

1:06:23Which is just like, is that the worst thing? No.

1:06:26But it just, it's not great.

1:06:30It's not great.

1:06:31Again, we're talking, you know how the phones are made.

1:06:33And this feels, and that's why I keep coming back to this being a systemic problem.

1:06:38This feels like a case where parts of Apple say, "We're going to do this. We're committed."

1:06:43And Tim Cook and company are like, "Yes, yes, yes. Absolutely."

1:06:46And then it has this unexpected trickle down to this other area where they're like, "Uh, what? We can't do leather anymore?"

1:06:52Seriously, I remember Matthew Panzareno at TechCrunch writing a few years ago about how Apple has some of the best leather people in the business.

1:06:58Well, they're all gone, right? They've been dismissed because they're out of that business.

1:07:01They used to make leather sleeves for iPads and MacBooks and stuff.

1:07:05It's all as luxury goods and they're really good.

1:07:08All gone.

1:07:09I always wanted one but just had no reason to own it.

1:07:12Occasionally they would randomly send me one along with a laptop review and I'd be like, "Why? Why?"

1:07:17I remember the first time they did them, it was with the iPad Air something.

1:07:22Or the iPad, no, I think it was the 11-inch iPad Pro or something.

1:07:25Federico got a review and they gave him one and it had the thing for the pencil.

1:07:29And I was like, "Oh, look at it."

1:07:31So anyway, all those people were dismissed.

1:07:35It came to them and they're like, "Geez, what are we going to do?"

1:07:39Which we said before.

1:07:40That's what it feels like.

1:07:41It feels like this is a thing where the decision was made at a high level.

1:07:45The assumption was made that everything was going to follow and fall in place and everybody was brilliant at Apple and they're going to figure it out.

1:07:51And what these people did was come up with the best solution they could and pitch it and be like, "Cell, cell, cell.

1:07:57Fine woven, rich Corinthian leather but not leather.

1:08:01Fine woven fabric."

1:08:03And either nobody said the emperor had no clothes or they did and they were like, "Well, too bad.

1:08:10It's just nothing you can do about it."

1:08:12Right. The train is already on the track.

1:08:14This is what we're going to get.

1:08:16But we'll see.

1:08:18And we don't know how quickly they can change their strategy.

1:08:22And maybe the general public just doesn't care.

1:08:26But I am skeptical of that because we can always argue, "Oh, you tech nerds obsess about this stuff."

1:08:31And it's like, I don't know.

1:08:33I think regular people really care about their iPhones and I think they really care about their iPhone cases.

1:08:36And if their iPhone case is crappy, doesn't feel right, gets stained, gets scratched, and doesn't turn into a beautiful thing.

1:08:43Leather scratches.

1:08:45Leather scratches and then is beautiful, right?

1:08:48All right. No, I agree with that.

1:08:50If fine woven scratches and ends up with a beautiful patina, I will concede that I doubt it.

1:08:58Yeah, you're probably right.

1:09:00I've scratched iPhone cases on week one, but after about six months, they are all just sort of soft and textured.

1:09:08The fact that they scratch isn't a problem, you're right.

1:09:11It's the way it looks when that happens over time and how that's going to work.

1:09:14Those are all the dangers here.

1:09:16And I am sure that within Apple there's a red light going off somewhere.

1:09:20I mentioned USB-C with Steven's case.

1:09:23It felt so weird to plug a USB-C cable into my phone when I did it the first time.

1:09:28This just feels too big and it's weird and odd.

1:09:30All our mental processes for how we do this stuff, you don't think about it and then you can actually feel your brain deprogramming.

1:09:40Because the cables are just thicker, right? Like the connector of a USB-C, right?

1:09:44So the feeling of plugging the cable I was holding when I plugged it, it just felt strange.

1:09:51It's different. I brought my other phone because I travel with it because I got my review units here in Memphis.

1:09:57And I had a moment where I looked on the floor today in the hotel room and I was like,

1:10:02"Oh, there's one cable down on the floor. What is that?"

1:10:04"Lightning."

1:10:06And I was like, "Oh, it's the moment where I look at a lightning cable and go, 'Oh, it's useless to me.'"

1:10:11I mean, it won't be useless at home because I still have some lightning stuff.

1:10:14AirPods.

1:10:15Yeah, oh yeah. And I did charge my AirPods the other day.

1:10:18But still, I had that moment of like, "Oh, you're old now. You're the past."

1:10:24I don't want you anymore.

1:10:25You're fading into irrelevance now, that little cable down there on the floor.

1:10:28What have you got on your action button?

1:10:33I had put "Do Not Disturb" on there and I realized I'm never going to use that.

1:10:38Right now, I have camera, which I know everybody's like, "Oh, but you could swipe."

1:10:43I always try to swipe and I swipe the wrong direction.

1:10:45I try to tap and hold on the camera button and it doesn't work for me.

1:10:49So right now, I've got camera. I think in the long run, I'll probably have shortcuts.

1:10:53I just tried because I know if you have the camera on the action button, you can then use the action button to take photos.

1:11:02Yeah, so you leave your finger there.

1:11:03But you can't do that if you don't have camera.

1:11:06Yeah, it's only when it's camera on the action button.

1:11:09I know you can use the volume buttons and that, but it is nice. I do like the idea of like, press it and then you're just taking photos.

1:11:15Yeah, because the idea there is you build up muscle memory where you take your phone out and you press and hold and it launches the camera.

1:11:20And then you go click, click, click, click, click and it's all just camera-oriented.

1:11:23I might give that a go.

1:11:24At the moment, I have a shortcut there. This was Federico's idea to add an item to Todoist because he said, "What's great about the Mac is you can just have a keyboard shortcut, bring up an entry bar for any to-do app that you want."

1:11:40You can't do that on the iPhone. You can do it with a shortcut, but the idea of it being a physical key is interesting.

1:11:46So I've set that up. I'm going to see how that feels.

1:11:48And I've put, we're going to talk about Ultra in a minute, I put "Do Not Disturb" on that action button.

1:11:54Because that made sense to me of like, if I'm getting a bunch of notifications, I just squeeze the watch and they'll go away on all my devices for an hour or whatever, which I think is what I'm going to set it to do.

1:12:04But the action button is interesting. I don't like that I have the little mute icon.

1:12:11Icon in the bar, yeah, I don't like that either.

1:12:13Why is that there? I don't need it there.

1:12:15I don't, I agree.

1:12:17I don't need it there.

1:12:18Yeah, because it's right next to the clock.

1:12:19It's there all the time now.

1:12:21I don't like it.

1:12:22I didn't need that before. Why do I need it now?

1:12:25That I don't like. I like that they put it in control center like we wanted them to.

1:12:29But I don't need the persistent reminder. To me, I need a reminder if my phone isn't muted.

1:12:35Because that is then the odd thing. I don't need that there.

1:12:40Real-time follow-up, you can hide that icon. It says Aniline in the chat.

1:12:44Thank you. I guess I'll dig through settings.

1:12:47Yeah, I was going to say, there's so much going on up in the status bar now that you kind of want settings to control it.

1:12:53I just wouldn't think that I could. It's in sound and haptics.

1:12:56Show in status bar.

1:12:58The Discord saves. Discord gives and Discord saves. Thank you, Discord.

1:13:04Well, I'm using my phone to record this podcast right now, so I'll set it later.

1:13:09Set it and forget it.

1:13:13Okay, good to know.

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1:14:46Did you get any review watches?

1:14:50I did.

1:14:51Okay. Which?

1:14:53I got the Series 9 standard in... I haven't taken it out of the box yet.

1:15:04Okay.

1:15:05Because I was really concerned about how... I think I want to set that up attached to one of the other phones so that I can just walk around with it but have it not be...

1:15:13Or maybe it'll be my day watch, night watch. I don't know.

1:15:16I'm just a little concerned there because I use the cellular functions and it means I probably have to attach...

1:15:20I think it is cellular but I have to attach it to my...

1:15:23If I want to use it with cellular, I have to attach it to my AT&T account and pay a setup fee and I'm not sure I want to do that.

1:15:29For what?

1:15:30Right.

1:15:31Because... I mean what?

1:15:33To use it and review it.

1:15:35But there isn't like... The major feature I guess of any interest is the double tap.

1:15:40Which isn't out yet.

1:15:41Maybe your watch has it. I don't know because...

1:15:43I don't think so.

1:15:44I think...

1:15:45Marques Brownlee got a watch sent to him.

1:15:48With double tap.

1:15:49That had it.

1:15:50Interesting.

1:15:51And so he was able to use it for his review.

1:15:52Well, I'll have to find out.

1:15:53It had like a pre-release version of 10.1 or something on it.

1:15:57Okay.

1:15:58Yeah, so I'm not taking it out of the box.

1:16:01I'm not buying one but I'll check it out.

1:16:04Apple Watch growth is slow. I mean the new processor, so it should be much more responsive and all of that and I'm sure that apps will come out that will take advantage of it.

1:16:13On the Pro, there's a game that I play a lot, which I love by the way.

1:16:17I recommend it. It's an Apple Arcade.

1:16:19It is kind of like a match 3 game.

1:16:21It's really good. It's kind of like 3s and it's a great game.

1:16:26It is called Finity.

1:16:28F-I-N-I-T-Y.

1:16:29Okay.

1:16:30So it's like Xfinity without the X.

1:16:32Sure.

1:16:33And it's an Apple Arcade game. I've been playing it a lot recently.

1:16:35It opens so much faster.

1:16:37The animation looked broken when the app opened.

1:16:40Like, there's like this little animation but it went super fast and then the game was ready.

1:16:45Like, it's the game company's like little sticker but it went like 3 times the speed as normal.

1:16:51I was like, "Oh, okay. There's something going on in here."

1:16:55But yeah, I got an Apple Watch Ultra 2.

1:16:57Yes, let's talk about it.

1:16:59Upgrading from a Series 7, which me and that Series 7, gold, stainless steel, loved it but the battery life, killing me.

1:17:11I was charging my watch before I went to bed because I was sleep tracking and then we charge it again in the morning and I would get like 10, 11 hours battery life usually a day.

1:17:27So like I would get to about 9 o'clock at night and I would get the 10% battery warning.

1:17:32This is happening every day.

1:17:34And that's with like, on average, I guess like the main thing for me there, like on an average day, I would clock in at about 45 minutes of activity, like exercise time, which is just from walking.

1:17:47So like that would just, that and just like regular watches would kill the battery basically every day.

1:17:53So I was, and I held off getting the original Ultra because I wasn't sure that I was going to like the way it looked and felt.

1:18:00I then experienced it a few months later and liked it but decided I would wait because I did not want to upgrade like six, eight months before or whatever.

1:18:09So I thought I would wait and I figured maybe there would be some differences.

1:18:12There are but there's light I guess.

1:18:15The look of it I enjoy. It's big. It is big but I knew that and I, but I like the flat display a lot.

1:18:24I like the color of the display. The brightness is wild. Like how bright this watch is, is wild to me.

1:18:33And also like what compounds with that is like when it's off, it looks on and I like that a lot.

1:18:40I don't, I never have liked the transition and a lot of watch faces don't deal with the transition very well.

1:18:48But I found that some of the watch faces that you can apply color to, it doesn't look that different anymore from when they're in the always on mode and when they're on.

1:18:57So I appreciate that about it.

1:18:59The hardware of the watch is interesting to me. The action button, okay.

1:19:06Like I have not accidentally enabled it yet but I know I'm going to and I'm going to see what that feels like.

1:19:11I'm not a big fan of the crown guard. I don't need that. I would prefer everything to be flat and there to be the crown.

1:19:22The crown feels fine to use. I think it's a bit bigger but it's also got the kind of texture on it.

1:19:29All of this stuff is fine. The overall thing that I don't, the only thing that I actually really don't like about the Ultra 2 I knew is that it's too tall off the wrist.

1:19:39It's big. It's a big watch in a dimension that I don't want it to be big in but that just is what it is.

1:19:47What I know about this watch that I didn't have so much about the Series 7 is I will wear regular watches more with being this watch owner than I was with a Series 7 owner.

1:20:01I feel like the Series 7 could kind of fade into the background a little bit when wearing nice clothes but the Ultra 2 I don't think I will be as comfortable in.

1:20:11I have a couple of watches that I love.

1:20:12You have some nice dress watches.

1:20:13So I'll be able to wear those again where the reason I haven't is because I always want to get the activity information, right?

1:20:20But I feel like in some circumstances now I'll be more likely to swap out for a traditional watch than I would have otherwise.

1:20:29I mentioned it earlier but my plan for the action button is a Do Not Disturb maybe on like an hour or something.

1:20:37And my thought there is if I'm getting a lot of notifications I like the mental model of like just squeezing my watch.

1:20:44Just putting it on mute for a while.

1:20:45And they'll all go away for a bit.

1:20:46And I like that as an idea because then also the way that I run my devices that will put every device on Do Not Disturb for an hour because I have the focus modes will sync up.

1:20:56I had that happen when we were taking the tour at St. Jude on Thursday.

1:21:00And there was a flurry of texts that came in and I think they were all on a group text with people who weren't there.

1:21:05And I think I actually put myself in Do Not Disturb because it was not that they weren't perfectly important and in another context they would have been fine.

1:21:14But it was very much a not now.

1:21:17I'm not receiving notifications right now.

1:21:21So I mentioned earlier that I would get like 11 hours battery life in a day.

1:21:27Right?

1:21:28So kind of around 9 hours would have been about 80% of the battery that I was using.

1:21:32I did in 9 hours yesterday 30%.

1:21:35I'm sold.

1:21:36Like I sleep track.

1:21:38I did not charge my watch this morning.

1:21:40The last time I charged my watch.

1:21:43I don't actually remember when it was now but I have 61% battery.

1:21:47So this will last me all the way until tonight.

1:21:50When I put my watch in charge, take a shower and I'll be ready to go again.

1:21:54I'm very excited about that.

1:21:56The thing I'm struggling with also is watch face choices.

1:22:02So I feel like a lot of the traditional round watch faces don't look right on the Ultra's larger screen.

1:22:11So I was using the Metropolitan one and I feel like it just doesn't extend enough with the corner complications.

1:22:21I think it probably can't. It just won't work.

1:22:24So I'm trying out different ones.

1:22:26I figured do I just lean into what the watch wants me to be and do one of the modular ones and just make it a computer watch and stop trying to make it look nice which is what I've always tried to do.

1:22:39So I'm trying out the modular Ultra which is very aggressive as a watch face.

1:22:46It has a central complication and six circle complications and a bar like a ring that goes around the outside which I set it to tick for seconds.

1:22:57So it's like a second hand on a modular face.

1:23:01But you can set it I think as like depth and compass as well.

1:23:05So I'm trying this. I've also tried out the more regular modular one.

1:23:13I think it's called just modular.

1:23:15I've tried that out.

1:23:17But what I've also thought about and I'm going to play around with more.

1:23:21Why not just make the best looking watch face I can because I don't need complications anymore.

1:23:26Maybe because I have widgets.

1:23:29So I'm thinking like I've always really liked the typograph watch face where it's just like big numbers and you can put it in nice colors and they can have different styles.

1:23:39And then all I need to do is just scroll up and I have my widgets which for me funnily enough my widgets and my complications are pretty much the same.

1:23:48Because the things that I want to know is pretty limited.

1:23:52It's like what's my next appointment? What's my activity today? Am I running a timer? And what's the weather?

1:23:58That's basically all I want my watch to give me.

1:24:00Widgets give me that too.

1:24:02So I'm thinking that maybe I just try and make something that looks attractive and gives me the time which is ultimately what I'm looking for when I look at the watch.

1:24:11And then maybe I get used to swiping up for more stuff.

1:24:14I'm not sure about that yet but I'm going to play around with it.

1:24:17But the watch faces that I have usually gravitated towards which are the round faces.

1:24:22They don't work for me anymore.

1:24:24I've also always really liked California which looks great full screen too.

1:24:30So I might give that a go.

1:24:32Oh that's really nice.

1:24:33I think that looks really nice.

1:24:34And I've tinted them orange as well because it matches with the action button.

1:24:40This is the other thing. I'm not sure how all my bands are going to work.

1:24:43So I bought three bands that have orange in them.

1:24:46So I bought the new Nike one, the blue one with the orange stuff.

1:24:50And these are great.

1:24:51Looks great.

1:24:52I got the Trail one which is like cream and blue and orange.

1:24:57Then I got the orange Ocean band as well.

1:25:00So that's kind of for me of like I'm replacing what I would typically wear.

1:25:04And then I'll see if I… I've always liked the magnetic link.

1:25:07I've not worn that with this yet.

1:25:09But there's a lot of orange on the watch which I do like but not always.

1:25:14I would have maybe liked to have seen that not be the case.

1:25:18The orange on the crown is fine because the LTE ones still have red, right?

1:25:24But then the orange action button, I don't know.

1:25:27I will say it's not as orange as I thought it was.

1:25:30But it's still pretty orange.

1:25:32But in my mind it was a bright orange but it's still kind of a challenge.

1:25:35Yeah that's the Golden Gate Bridge. It's international orange.

1:25:37It's the Golden Gate Bridge international orange?

1:25:39Yes.

1:25:40No because I thought it was more red.

1:25:41Well international orange is a little more red.

1:25:43It's a little more red?

1:25:44Next time I'm in San Francisco, I'll have my watch next to the bridge.

1:25:47Hold it up.

1:25:48See what happens.

1:25:49Okay.

1:25:50And it's got the screen guard so I could ding it against the Golden Gate Bridge and

1:25:54maybe it won't be a problem.

1:25:55So yeah, I'm very happy with this.

1:25:57I've got to change the way I use my Apple Watch but that's fine too.

1:26:01Because watchOS 10, it's actually kind of feels to me like the perfect time for me

1:26:05to make this change because it feels like absolute design for it with the full screen.

1:26:10Yeah.

1:26:11Really feels like that.

1:26:12And so I'm already changing the way I use my watch anyway.

1:26:14So why not go one step further and change a lot more about it.

1:26:17Makes sense.

1:26:19This episode is brought to you by Ladder.

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1:28:10Should we do some Ask Upgrade questions to finish today's episode?

1:28:14Whoa, watch out for those lasers in this room, Jason.

1:28:17They're bouncing all over the place.

1:28:19I had a question that I brought into the document that I wasn't going to do today,

1:28:22but I liked it because it mirrors all the way around to some of the conversations we've been having in today's show.

1:28:27I think it actually matches with two of the bigger conversations we've had.

1:28:30It comes from Brad.

1:28:31With Apple's 2030 environmental commitments, where does this put the car project?

1:28:38It's a good question. The idea is that it's an electric car.

1:28:43So, you know, they never had an internal combustion engine project.

1:28:49I think the idea there is that especially if you're taking, you're moving everybody to electric and reducing the pollution,

1:28:55that that's a good thing.

1:28:57But there are lots of issues with battery parts especially,

1:29:02but I would say you're starting to hear Apple talk about using recycled materials in their batteries, right?

1:29:08Isn't it recycled cobalt, I think you said?

1:29:10When we were watching it, Gray was very impressed by that. I don't know why.

1:29:15So I think what you're seeing, because Apple car, you know, if it happens, it's going to have materials that...

1:29:24First off, they're also doing some offsets and there's lots of...

1:29:27I've definitely gotten some emails from people and press releases from organizations talking about carbon offsets.

1:29:33And Apple insists that these are the good ones, but the problem with carbon offsets is you're still emitting carbon

1:29:38and then you're paying to plant a tree somewhere and say that's equivalent.

1:29:41And there are lots of debates about how equivalent it really is and it really isn't in a lot of cases.

1:29:47So they might do some of that with a car.

1:29:49I do think though that in the end, the biggest question I have about that is the batteries.

1:29:54And Apple makes lots of products with batteries.

1:29:56So for Apple's 2030 pledge, they're going to need to do a lot of work.

1:30:01And I imagine they're already spending huge amounts of money working on ways to fix their battery cycle

1:30:09to reuse materials in their batteries as much as is possible as well.

1:30:15They've done that with a lot of their other parts on their devices.

1:30:17And they don't want to be the company that's taking stuff out of the ground sometimes in places where the environmental impact is huge

1:30:28and the human impact can be huge.

1:30:30They don't want to do that.

1:30:31They do have the money and the motivation, like we said before.

1:30:34So I think that they're working on that because that commitment has to apply to all their batteries and all their devices by 2030.

1:30:44The thing that I was wondering about this question is just like the sheer manufacturing required, like additional manufacturing to make cars?

1:30:53Right.

1:30:54That seems like a lot.

1:30:56Yeah, well that's the question about the whole car project is.

1:30:59It does seem like a lot, doesn't it?

1:31:01Maybe they would have a manufacturing partner and they would make sure that their electricity is or they would offset it by buying electricity over here and saying this is for that plant or whatever.

1:31:11I don't know.

1:31:12If they can work it out though, it does give them just another reason to say why they're doing it.

1:31:18We're trying to remove more cars from the road, but there are questions still about whether electric cars are actually that much better.

1:31:27I hear a lot of arguments about it.

1:31:30Yeah, I mean a lot of the arguments are about the source of the electricity because it needs to be from clean electrical sources and all that.

1:31:36But in the end, there are devices that don't burn gasoline and therefore literally just emit those gases into the air.

1:31:46So that's good, but it has to be backed by a lot of other things.

1:31:50Because as well, that's how Apple are doing it too.

1:31:52I forgot about that, but again, I heard MKBHD's review and it was a reminder that was surprising to me.

1:31:57The carbon neutrality of the Apple Watch is also all the electricity you'll ever use to charge it.

1:32:03That's to make it a fully carbon neutral product, not carbon neutral manufacturing.

1:32:09By 2030, every product Apple makes, they are also building into that idea the electricity to power that product for its expected lifespan.

1:32:21That's hard of a car.

1:32:23Yes, it's true. Although the trick there is that you can also build a model about the increase in the percentage of green sources coming in.

1:32:32My guess is Apple's not paying for green energy for all the electricity that charges all the Apple Watches.

1:32:40They're paying for the percentage of electricity used across the world to charge Apple Watches that's not coming from a green source.

1:32:48That's what they're doing.

1:32:49So they could anticipate that over time that percentage is going to keep going down and so their cost there will go down.

1:32:56But you're right, cars use a lot of electricity too.

1:32:58I think what I find most interesting about this environmental commitment to Apple, well it's two things.

1:33:04One is their scale and their resources put them in a unique position.

1:33:10It makes it harder because every Apple product is millions, right?

1:33:15So they can't source a part for a phone unless they can have many millions of them.

1:33:23And it totally changes how they do business. But they also have massive resources.

1:33:28So for a company like Apple to do this, really interesting, they're probably going to push in a lot of areas and even create momentum in areas that might need that momentum but they need somebody behind it.

1:33:39So I find that fascinating.

1:33:40And the other thing I find fascinating is, and this is the semi-political version of this, I'm sure Tim Cook and Lisa Jackson know what they're doing.

1:33:49What they're doing is preventing other big companies from claiming they can't do it.

1:33:56And that's really interesting because they're going to make life harder for their competition and for other companies and other businesses because everybody's going to be able to say, "Apple is doing it, why aren't you?"

1:34:08And the little trick, when Apple does this sort of thing, is Apple is always of course uniquely positioned to do it better.

1:34:15So it gives them a competitive advantage because if the world comes in and says, "You have to do this because Apple is doing it."

1:34:21And their competitor is like, "Okay, they're not going to be able to do it as well as Apple."

1:34:25And that's going to hurt them or cost them more and it makes Apple more successful.

1:34:30So there's that business aspect of it too.

1:34:32And if I had an investor, I was an Apple person, I had the investors come in and say, "Why are you doing this?"

1:34:36That would be the answer is, "We think we can do this. Everybody's going to have to do it and we're going to do it better than everyone else.

1:34:41And so we're going to win.

1:34:42And so it's good for us as a business to do this." That's the way you make that argument.

1:34:46Anthony asks, "Do you think that ProMotion, having the word 'Pro' in its name, will preclude it from ever appearing in a non-Pro Apple product?"

1:34:57I have some thoughts about this because it hasn't yet.

1:35:01So we have the Dynamic Island but there is not a ProMotion display and there's also not an Always On display.

1:35:07And I feel like ProMotion at the moment maybe and the Always On are kind of linked together.

1:35:11But anyway, this is the higher refresh rate display as the ProMotion technology.

1:35:16So my expectation for this is that at some point down the line, ProMotion is enhanced.

1:35:24Either higher refresh rate or they add something else to that technology.

1:35:29Which will then allow a version of ProMotion to be on a different display.

1:35:34Do they call it ProMotion? Maybe. I don't know.

1:35:37Maybe it gets a different name when it's a different refresh rate.

1:35:41I am surprised Apple have yet to go to 90 on the regular iPhones.

1:35:47They are falling behind competition in that regard.

1:35:51If people care about it, I don't know.

1:35:55It's spoken a lot about in tech YouTube videos.

1:35:58I care about it. But that's one of the reasons I buy the ProPhone.

1:36:01I like it to feel really smooth.

1:36:03But I think that's probably what will happen. At some point, maybe the Prophones go to 240 frames per second.

1:36:11And then they bring 90 or 120 to the regular phones.

1:36:15My short answer here is Apple names will never preclude Apple from doing whatever it wants.

1:36:23There's no "Oh, we can't do this because it's..."

1:36:26The moment that Apple thinks that it makes sense for whatever reason for the non-Prophones to have ProMotion,

1:36:31they will add it. So the question is just...

1:36:34And they'll say, "Oh look, literally the iPhone 15 non-Pro on Apple's marketing pages,

1:36:41when they talk about the fact that it's got the processor from last year,

1:36:45they say that it was tested in Pro environments, tested by the Pros, and now available to you.

1:36:50That's how they pitch that. So they can work around it.

1:36:54So I think the answer is going to be, ProMotion held out of the non-Prophones

1:36:59is a thing that will happen until they have enough stuff in the Prophones,

1:37:03and it's inconvenient enough to hold it out.

1:37:05This is the Dynamic Island argument, other than the fact that Pro is in the name.

1:37:10The Dynamic Island argument is, "Oh, well, do you withhold the Dynamic Island from everywhere

1:37:16that isn't a Prophone in order to sell Prophones?"

1:37:18And the answer was, "Well, no. We'd rather have that everywhere."

1:37:21I imagine that at some point, 60 frames will become a feature that they're like, "No, this should have it."

1:37:27And maybe the answer is, they go to 90 frames. If people care, if people don't care,

1:37:32they'll go to 60 frames at some point, and they'll be like, "Nobody cares above this."

1:37:35And they'll say, "And it's got ProMotion. Yay!"

1:37:38I think now it's 60 currently.

1:37:40No, but not on the--or is it 60 at 120 that we have currently? Okay.

1:37:45So you've got your high frame rate and your low frame rate.

1:37:47They'll bring it down if they want to and if it's convenient for them.

1:37:52And maybe they'll bring it down because they've got a higher frame rate.

1:37:55But maybe nobody cares about the higher frame rate.

1:37:58And maybe ProMotion is good enough for everybody, in which case they'll just put it in there. They don't care.

1:38:03And Bo asks, "What configurations are each of your 2022 MacBook Airs along with the color?"

1:38:09They're next to each other. This is beautiful.

1:38:12Yeah, they're touching. Just a little bit.

1:38:15We both have the same color.

1:38:17Yeah, they're both 13-inch, midnight, M2. You've got more GPU power than me.

1:38:22I've got a 10-core GPU. I don't remember why I did it. I just did it.

1:38:26I think it was--for me, I wanted 24GB of RAM and 1TB storage.

1:38:32I might have ended up with some kind of package and added one thing.

1:38:37Right, that might be. Well, this is the story of this.

1:38:39We have seemingly identical laptops, but you spent a lot more money on yours than I did on mine.

1:38:43I have a 10-core GPU--or you have a 10-core GPU, 24GB of RAM, and the terabyte storage.

1:38:48I have 8, 16, and 512. I don't have the base model, but I have much closer to the base model than you do.

1:38:55I'm trying to see now. Because I'm expecting that there was some kind of limit of some kind.

1:39:00Yeah, that you were in the buying thing, and you had to go to the higher level and then configure that one.

1:39:06Well, actually, it doesn't look like--no, that's the 8-core, 10-core.

1:39:11Oh, they only do 8 and 10 now.

1:39:14Yeah.

1:39:15Oh, okay. Like, they only do 8-core CPU, 10-core GPU in the M2.

1:39:21Oh, they don't do the 8-core GPU?

1:39:23Oh, I found it. It's under a different button. Why does it say "new"?

1:39:26I don't know.

1:39:27This is very confusing to me. Oh, I was looking at the 15-inch.

1:39:31Oh.

1:39:32That would be why. I was looking at the 15-inch.

1:39:34So, let me look. If I do the 8-core--because they only do 8 and 10 in the--

1:39:39In the 13-inch?

1:39:41Yeah. It turns out it didn't make any difference. I just want my 10-core GPU for whatever reason.

1:39:44We need more Gs.

1:39:46More Gs in my PUs.

1:39:48I do a lot on this machine, so I just was like, "Oh, I'll bump it up and go the extra."

1:39:53And this is my main computer. This is what I do all of my work on, really.

1:39:56And it is not mine, so I'm fine. I love it.

1:39:59Yep.

1:40:00Please don't forget. Go to stjude.org/relay, give often, give generously,

1:40:05and help us support St. Jude Children's Research Hospital

1:40:09in their fight against childhood cancer all throughout September.

1:40:13You can send us your feedback, follow-up, and questions at upgradefeedback.com.

1:40:19You can check out Jason's work at sixcolors.com.

1:40:22I'm assuming you'll probably have some device reviews within the next time.

1:40:26Don't give me a deadline.

1:40:28The next time. Within the next amount of time.

1:40:30Yeah, within an amount of span of time, I will review devices.

1:40:32You can also hear Jason's shows here on Relay FM and at the incomparable.com.

1:40:37You can also listen to my podcast here on Relay FM.

1:40:40You can check out my work at cortexbrand.com as well.

1:40:42What's that paper you were talking about?

1:40:43There's paper there. We also currently have subtleties on sale for a limited time.

1:40:47And hoodies.

1:40:48And hoodies.

1:40:49But don't buy those. We'll buy our hoodies again sometime soon.

1:40:52This is a lightweight hoodie.

1:40:53Okay.

1:40:54So the upgrade hoodie is a thick hoodie.

1:40:55Yeah, you're right.

1:40:56The subtle one is a lightweight hoodie.

1:40:57Buy them all.

1:40:58Buy all the hoodies.

1:40:59Yep.

1:41:00You can find us on Mastodon. Jason is at JSNEL, J-S-N-E-L-L-L on zeppelin.flights.

1:41:05I am at imike, I-M-Y-K-E on mike.social.

1:41:09The show is on Mastodon as upgrade@relayfm.social.

1:41:15You can watch video clips of the show there and on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube where we are @upgraderelay.

1:41:22We're also on Threads. I am at imike, I-M-Y-K-E.

1:41:25Jason is at JSNEL, J-S-N-E-L-L.

1:41:28I am going to do something to tidy this up further, but I don't know what it is.

1:41:33It is long.

1:41:34It's long.

1:41:35It's long.

1:41:36We'll slim it down.

1:41:37We'll find a way.

1:41:38Thank you to our members who support us with Upgrade Plus.

1:41:40Thank you to our sponsors, that is Factor, Vitaly, and Ladder for their support of this episode.

1:41:45But most of all, as always, thank you for listening.

1:41:48We're back next time. Until then, say goodbye to Jason Snow.

1:41:51Give me another high five.

1:41:52Woo!

1:41:54[Music]

1:41:59(upbeat music)